Romell Broom, 52, was given a rare one-week reprieve when officials struggled for hours to find a vein strong enough to handle lethal injection. The scene was particularly grotesque for critics of the death penalty as Broom awaited his death for hours as he was pricked and probed. Ohio Gov. Ted Strickland eventually ordered the one-week delay to allow prison officials time to figure out the best vein to use to execute him.
Broom was convicted of raping and fatally stabbing a 14-year-old girl in East Cleveland, Ohio, in 1984. Broom reportedly tried to help the prison staff find a vein in his own execution.
The defense moved quickly when Broom’s lawyer in prison, Adele Shank (a particularly apt name for a prisoner lawyer), notified co-counsel Tim Sweeney that they could not find a vein at the Lucasville facility. They did an excellent job in moving to seek a termination of the procedure.
For some, this brings up memories of problems in May 2006 when Ohio officials took 90 minutes to find a vein in the execution of Joseph Clark, who was heard pleading with the officials “It don’t work.”
Then in 2007, officials in Ohio took two hours to find a vein for Christopher Newton’s execution.
These botched executions are often cited as magnifying the cruel and unusual punishment under the Eighth Amendment. However, courts have rejected such claims in the past and find that the state cannot anticipate every eventuality. Yet, Ohio’s persistent difficulties raise some question as to whether the state is less competent in executions or whether other states are less careful. The possibility of a vein not functioning fully can cause a horrific outcome where the inmate is not fully sedated and not given sufficient lethal doses to ensure rapid death.
I have previously written about the problem associated with lethal injection, here.
For the full story, click here.
Hanging works fine. Who came up with lethal injections? Dr.Mengele?
“Broom was convicted of raping and fatally stabbing a 14-year-old girl in East Cleveland, Ohio, in 1984.”
**********************
Just send him to Wisconsin, a Broom/Mop Handle worked well for Dalhmer. This is clearly a waste of taxpayer dollars. He had a trial, appeals and now awaits execution. Seems like a lot of money to spend on somebody that could have been taken care of by a lifer.
Perhaps he is morphing back into the machine state that preceded the organic realms. Will they consider keeping him around in the interests of science perhaps?
http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/09/putting-face-on-machine-mutation-2.html
Just flush him down the toilet! Let’s save the tax dollars!
Some of you people are heartless and inhuman. I wouldn’t trust you with my kids or my dog for one second. There is evil in your hearts! And whatever God you pray to is a crazy moron too.
George,
I am not heartless. I don’t think for a minute that a person convicted of rape or child abuse deserves to live. Sorry, I do have a lot of compassion for the sick and mentally ill. But, when you mes with a child, that is just wrong. Would you not agree?
sounds like the guy deserves a mulligan and should spend the rest of his life in prison. I used to be pro-death penalty but being the greedy capitalist that I am, it appears to cost much less to keep them alive than to kill them what with the cost of appeals. I would think life in prison would not be peaches and cream but a pretty lousy existence.
It is also rather cruel and unusual to be in a constant state of dread as to when the final appeal is exhausted and the needle is coming.
Personally I think if you are going to have the death penalty it ought to be brutal and public such as hanging or electrocution. Does 2 things:
1. it shows that doing crime can be costly.
2. it shows people that they need to be very certain before sending someone to a death sentence. If the state is going to kill someone let everyone know how bad it is. I think if enough people see a real execution we might have fewer death sentences.
Byron,
Don’t you at least think that Child Rape/Murder should be an exclusion from a life sentence? I say put them in the same cell as a person scheduled to be executed. The system would assure a just and speedy sentence.
I am with you on all of the others. But it actually takes more energy to hang someone or shoot them. Yes a bullet cost less than an injection.
Slickone:
kill a child kill an adult you are still killing a human being. What is the difference between a 14 year old and an 18 year old? They are both just babies, even a 21 year old is still a baby in the scheme of things.
A child rapist and killer should just be put in the general population, no segregation.
Slickone says…”Sorry, I do have a lot of compassion for the sick and mentally ill. But, when you mes with a child, that is just wrong. Would you not agree?”
—
I agree it is wrong to mess with a child, yes, but I have also seen how our less-than-just American justice system continually botches arrests, prosecutions and incarcerations…and, in this case, executions. That makes me think twice about a knee-jerk reaction against any convicted felon. They did the crime, yes, and they are serving their sentence. Period. I don’t wish them ADDITIONAL pain and suffering in addition to their penal sentence. Why would I unless I wanted the attitude of hate to fester inside me?
Plus, in my spiritual view, each of us is a Child of God, and when someone makes a mistake — even a mortal mistake — that doesn’t change their identity as a Child of God. That may have to got prison, pay their debit to society, even die at an execution; but, to me, they will always be a Child of God. And I’m not necessarily against the death penalty. I just don’t need to hate them in addition to their imprisonment or death.
Look, you death-penalty supporters, the question isn’t whether the guy deserves to be executed. The question is whether innocent people deserve to be executed. It is impossible for the criminal justice system to be foolproof, so, if you support the death penalty, you support the execution of innocent people. I’m not saying, of course, that you like to see the execution of innocent people; I’m saying that you consider the execution of innocent people to be acceptable collateral damage.
People are making a big deal about the New Yorker article showing that Texas almost certainly executed an innocent man. But, with more than 120 innocent people having been released from death row since 1976, it is impossible that we haven’t executed numerous innocent people. There is no way that we could have caught all our mistakes; after all, once you’re convicted you’re not even entitled to a lawyer anymore.
I am not against justice, once it has been established beyond a Reasonable Doubt that the person committed a rape and murder of a child. This cannot rest on mere suspect status. DNA, Video, Caught in the act or Admission so long as they are not mentally ill.
It cannot be a he said she said type of witness.
The current list of people released from death row for innocence is 135; see http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row.
This list may not include people in the following category. A court doesn’t release them, but orders a new trial. The government knows that they are innocent, but doesn’t want to admit it, because the government would look bad for having convicted them and the government might have to pay restitution. So the government brings a new indictment and offers the defendant a plea bargain: admit your guilt and the judge will sentence you to time-served. Obviously, this is an offer that defendants can’t refuse, even if they are innocent. A criminal defense lawyer told me that this happens.
Slickone, no evidence is 100% foolproof. The DNA or the video test could be faked or altered, and many innocent people confess to crimes they didn’t commit.
The State should never have the power to execute individuals for crimes.
Not only is our system prone to error and abuse in which innocents can be executed, but the penalty itself is applied unevenly across class and race.
The death penalty is far more useful as a tool of a tyrannical government than as an effective deterrent to crime. The construct of a death penalty also opens the door to use of that penalty for lesser crimes, including victimless crimes.
it sure sounds like the attempt was both cruel and unusual.
puzzling:
what is the basis for your thoughts?
Henry,
Within the context of a death penalty, the phrase “beyond a reasonable doubt” necessitates a process by which innocent people will be killed.
The categorical imperative, i.e. “adopt only that maxim that you would will to become a universal law,” demands that the mere adoption of a procedure that puts innocent people to death also demands that the people who adopted said procedure be put to death as well. Ultimately we’d be left with a planet populated by the intellectually dishonest who by their nature would find a way to finish themselves off eventually.
Anyway, I’m against the death penalty in almost every case.
The two exceptions are felony in progress & most of all treason.
Bob,Esq.,
Your two exceptions do not make sense. If by “felony in progress,” you mean that one should have a right to kill someone who is committing a felony, then you are not talking about the death penalty, as that is a penalty imposed by a judge. And a felony could include shoplifting merchandise worth more than a specified amount or possession of more than a specified amount of marijuana.
“Treason” is defined in the Constitution to include giving enemies of the United States “Aid and Comfort,” and that can include relatively benign acts. It is counterintuitive, to say the least, to rate treason, regardless of the circumstances, as more serious than mass murder.
hei·nous
adj.
Grossly wicked or reprehensible; abominable: a heinous crime.
Byron wrote, puzzling:what is the basis for your thoughts?
Since the death penalty is irrevocable (if the government is even competent enough to carry it out), the real risk that innocents are convicted and executed (either in error, or deliberately by framing them), means that the death penalty is an inherently dangerous institution to society, even if it is suits some desire for retribution against murderers. I agree with Henry’s earlier comments on the subject.
Beyond these concerns is the risk that government continues to raise the penalties for lesser crimes such that people might one day be executed for drug trafficking and other so-called crimes against society and the State.
State sanctioned murder. Lovely. Give the man life in prison and be done with it.
Or send him to Wisconsin and maybe he’ll have the same fate as Dalhmer. Mop Handle Broom Handle either would do the trick.
The death penalty is a deterrent. Once the perpetrator is executed, he is deterred from ever killing again! Think McFly!
Sadly, the families of the people who commit these terrible crimes suffer, I think, nearly as much as do the families of the victims. Jeffrey Dahmer has been mentioned here. I recall seeing his mother interviewed on television after he was murdered in prison, and what she said just about broke my heart. It was (paraphrased) “I know he did terrible things, but he was my son, and I loved him, and I don’t feel like I even have the right to grieve.”
She has the right to grieve. His death at the hands of a fellow sociopath in prison, is “justice” for the likes of him. I’m sorry Leah, I can’t get too broken up over the Dahmer family struggling to cope with the loss of “little Jeffrey”. How do the families of the victims get on with there lives as they grieve and try to move on from so deleterious an experience at the hands of one of the most brutal serial killers of the past century?
Mrs. Dahmer can grieve. Her grief party will only have a small circle of supporters and sympathizers, primarily made up of a few family members. The fact that Dahmer is now dead allows the victims families to get on with there lives, just knowing he is not breathing gives them peace of mind…….
Billy,
She has the right to grieve. His death at the hands of a fellow sociopath in prison, is “justice” for the likes of him. I’m sorry Leah, I can’t get too broken up over the Dahmer family struggling to cope with the loss of “little Jeffrey”. How do the families of the victims get on with there lives as they grieve and try to move on from so deleterious an experience at the hands of one of the most brutal serial killers of the past century?
The system will take care of its own. That is enough said by me. I do feel bad for the mother. I presume that she did not set out to raise a serial child killer. But that is what happened. The families will never know the gruesome details of his mutilations of their children. As well as they should be spared the details. But at least for some of these families relief was given.
I feel bad for the mother as well. I just wouldn’t spend to much time agonizing over her plight….
Slickone, always remember sociopathe are made, but psychopaths are born……..
Dr. Hare is probably this hemispheres leading authority on Sociopathy and Psychopathy. I would refer anyone interested in studying this “personality disorder” in greater detail, to refer to Dr. Hares treatise on this matter. The book is entitled, ‘Without Conscience, the Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us’
Most of the felons in the state correctional facilities in our country are undoubtedly sociopaths. They seldom if ever come in voluntarily for any type of treatment until they run afoul of the law and are forced into some type of compulsory treatment or modality of therapy, to diagnose and understand the etiology of there criminal behavior.
Rehabilitation for people diagnosed with sociopathy is very, very difficult, some might say impossible. Most people with sociopathy “cool off” over a period of years and find ways to adapt and become assimilated into the fabric of our society. The more dramatic displays of this disorder could be deemed as psychopathy, and these individuals frequently never “cool off”. They continue to run amok, until they are apprehended and brought into incarceration. Dahmer, Bundy, Gacy are some of the most dramatic and obvious examples of this disorder. I believe they should be studied, interviewed then liquidated. They are predators by nature and “extremely” dangerous to the population, in or out of prison. All of these serial killers are serial killers, because they have a “sexual trigger” which compels them to commit the crimes they do. A “hit man” for example, is not a serial killer, yet still a psychopath. Since a sexual trigger is not motivating the act, they are merely mass murderers, albeit “psychopaths” as well. I believe the death penalty is a fitting punishment for these individuals, who are beyond the pale of rehabilitation.
Also, because they have commited the crimes, such as the one committed by Mr. Broome, it is fitting they should die. Death is a “punishment” for committing first degree murder. It is fair and just. The death penalty is “extreme justice” meted out to those who committ an “extreme crime”…
Sociopathy usually manifests in little boys between the ages of 3-4, in little girls at about the onset of puberty. This personality disorder is usually more prevalent in males on about a 3-1 ratio. In little boys the disorder is frequently manifested when the child tortures insects and animals of lower form, then it progresses into the torture or mutilation of animals of higher form with a more complex nervous system, i.e. cats dogs etc. Frequently the perpetrator of these acts also is involved in victimizing smaller children, as well committing acts of pyromania and theft. In adolescent girls, they usually skip school, start smoking, have frequent sexual partners and unwanted preganancies, coupled with theft and property destruction. Prior to the age of 18, this personality disorder is not called antisocial personality disorder, but rather “conduct disorder” or “childhood conduct disorder”. Extreme poverty, lack of a strong maternal attachment and being rescued by adults when “caught” performing destructive disordered acts, can be contributing factors in the formation or genesis of this disorder in a small child.
Billy, you say…”I believe they should be studied, interviewed then liquidated. They are predators by nature and “extremely” dangerous to the population, in or out of prison.”
—
Liquidated?
Psychopathy is generally understood to be a psychological condition in which individuals engage in chronic immoral and antisocial behavior.
The term fact that you so casually use the term “liquidate” in the same sentence as other human beings (reminds me a little bit too much of language the Third Reich might have used, by the way) and your conclusion that, “Death is a “punishment” for committing first degree murder. It is fair and just,” leads me to question your understanding of the issue at hand.
PS. Would you suggest we develop a DNA test for psychopathy? Since psychopaths are born that way, we could just test them and liquidate them right there in the delivery room…think of the tax dollars it would save!
George, would you want your wife or sister to be victimized by the likes of Dahmer or Gacy, all in the name of science? I said they should be “studied”, then liquidated. They should be liquidated due to the outragoeus crimes they perpetrate. A serial killer should be put to death as a “punishment”. Those who are diagnosed with sociopathy and only pilfer a case or two of beer, are OK in my book… I think you have missed the fundamental point I was trying to illustrate. Due to there potential for violence and savagery, they need to be destroyed that others may live and flourish. Also, I make the distinction between sociopathy and psychopathy, as it relates to “human predators”, i.e. Bundy Dahmer, gacy et al…
Also, all those diagnosed with psychopathy do not become “predators”, those that do, should be liquidated….
If we don’t turn ourselves into a syrupy grey ooze, eventually there will be a vaccine for the genetic component of psycho-/sociopathy. But you cannot totally remove in killer inside us. Such a step is not possible. There is also the fact that psychosis can be induced through trauma, illness and toxic exposures. No vaccine will help that. And sociopathic behavior? That can be a choice. It’s called evil. But rest assured, as long as there are men, there will be killers.
George, maybe you should open up a Level Four Board and Care Home and become a Licensed Administrator. You can be an advocate for the sexual predator and deviant. They can move into your home that is licensed, maybe with your wife and children. They aren’t all that frightening, you can medicate them and hope they don’t turn into the time-bomb, that we all know they are. Once they go-off, KABOOM!
Well said Buddha, evil men who commit murder for pleasure need to be “put to death’. I think the term liquidate, is a little to much for your sensibilities……
I am not talking about psychosis induced through chemical or substance abuse. I am talking about predators, who are diagnosed with a personality disorder, the disorder is antisocial personality disorder. If these individuals take life for personal pleasure, I believe that individual would have to die. The death penalty is a deterrent, once the perpetrator is liquidated, they are permanently deterred. You like…..
Henry,
By felony in progress, I mean use of deadly force to save a life or defend one’s life. Not procedural per se, but state sanctioned.
Treason is the utmost exception because it is in essence an attack on the system itself that protects us. There’s a reason Dante dedicated the final level of Hell to be ‘Treason to Benefactor.’
Have people been convicted for crimes they didn’t commit? Yes we all know that. Have people been executed for crimes they didn’t commit? No doubt. However they are far from innocents. They had been convicted or charged with other simular crimes which is why they were looked at in the first place. If your worried it could happen to you some day then how about not committing crimes.
Billy,
You’d be wise not to speak to my sensibilities on this issue. My objections to the death penalty for certain crimes is solely economic. And you also overstate the deterrence effect.
http://www.truthinjustice.org/922death.htm
I have to say I don’t understand Strickland on this issue. In many ways he’s done a great deal of good for Ohio. The Ohio ACLU has been on his case, in person and by letter/e-mail since he came into office. Here’s some contact info from the ACLU:
“Ohio had its third botched execution in as many years. It is unacceptable to put people to death under a system that is fundamentally flawed.
Please call Governor Ted Strickland and tell him to put an immediate stop to all executions indefinitely. His number is (614) 466-3555…”
Deterrence is not overstated, it is a simple fact. Whether or not you support the death penalty or not, it is still a deterrent. Why would I be wise not to speak to your sensibilities, I assume you are a sensible man?
The vast majority of people executed are in fact executed for “murder one”. Sadly a “few” may have been put to death for a crime never committed, never said the law was perfect, but what is?
When I referenced the “death penalty” as a deterrent, I was applying it solely to the perpetrator of the act, not the demographics of the “entire” country…..
Read the article buddhaislaughing, found it interesting. Clearly the journalist who wrote it has his own bias, especially coming from the state of New York, a state without capital punishment.
An enormous amount of money is wasted “warehousing” these violent criminals. It is ludicrous and cruel to let them languish for years when on death row. They should be executed within twelve months of the sentence, if not sooner.
Some people, due to philosophical reasons are in opposition to the death penalty. I for one am not, I feel it is just and fitting, in fact I think it cruel and unusual to allow these “social deviants” to continue living, thereby jeopardizing the health and well being of others.
Let’s look at Mr. Broome, this “charming man”. He brutally raped and murdered a 14 year old girl, somebody’s loving daughter. This daughter was cherished and loved and valued beyond measure. Because he was either horny or just P.O.’d at the world, he felt he had the right to rape and then savagely take her life. What do you do with “human offal” such as this. He is fortunate to live in the civilized society he does. He has spent a number of years watching cable T.V. and reading magazines and being provided “three hots and a cot” free of charge, by the tax payers of the great state of Ohio. Oh, boo-hoo! they couldn’t find a vein. Has anyone ever heard of a firing squad. Works wonders, they still use it in Utah!
One more thought on the death penalty. I want to clear up any ambiguity. My contention is that the “death penalty” is a deterrent. It deters the perpetrator from being able to ever kill again. Once he/she is liquidated, he/she is deterred in perpetuity..
“Let he without sin, cast the first stone”. I have children and a week ago I would have probably agreed with you all. However, in the past week a relative has been charged with two counts of capital murder (not children) that we know He could not have committed. Since that time, I have continuously researching the death penalty. It is horrific and shocking to see the people, accuse or convicted or actually put to death for crimes they did not commit and the grounds for those convictions are equally shocking. There are people fighting this and some have been exonerated while it was too late for others. I do not know if this man had any claims of innocence. However, I beleive that our system is too riddled and tainted with bias, prejudice, malice and human error to ever be allowed to make the decision of life or death. It is a vicious cycle of ending life. What if God was so condemning, judgmental and cruel as we are. He is not. But we are and should not attempt to step in his place.
Blah. Blah. Blah. I have heard this rhetoric before! Everyone who philosophically is opposed to the death penalty says the same thing, come up with a new slant, a new angle, at least make it interesting. If you have a family member who committed first degree murder and he is found guilty in a court of law, in a state that has the death penalty, good luck, because luck is what he will need if he is guilty. Usually, when a person is brought under control by the authorities, the family is shocked, sickened and embarassed. They don’t want to see a brother, cousin, or son put to death. It is an “extreme penalty”, that is meted out for those commit an “extreme crime”. The DA and authorities have the right man 99.9% of the time. Occasionally the wrong man is incarcerated and dies, but this is very, very infrequent and indicative of the fact that we live in an imperfect world, not a utopia. Deal…..
Amanda, if your realative is like most languishing on death row, he undoubtedly has an attorney that will frivolously blow tax payers money seeking an appeal, which he probably won’t get. He will then live for about a decade or more at the tax payers expense, watching ESPN, lifting weights, eating three squares a day, and waiting for family to visit him and cry over his plight. The world is about choices, he made some dreadful choices….
Amanda,
Do you believe these murder charges are simply erroneous, or that the government has set about to frame your relative?
You are correct that our system is simply too flawed to be used to deprive individuals of life. Our system is cannot adequately protect the innocent from becoming victims of our natural impulse to inflict great suffering and death on those who have murdered, and errors committed can never be corrected.
I disagree with you that belief in God is useful in determining the role of a death penalty in a free society. Some versions of Christianity apparently permit (and perhaps encourage) the death penalty, and others do not.
Billy wrote: “The DA and authorities have the right man 99.9% of the time.”
Then why do we even bother to have trials?
We have trials because we are a civilized and democratic society. Those who are innocent go free, those who are guilty go to prison, in the case of Mr. Broome, death-row, awaiting execution..
Mr. Broome had his trial and was found guilty by a jury of his peers, who were presented with facts from the prosecuting attorney. They must have found it pretty compelling, he was found guilty and sentenced to die….
What is civilized about executing innocent people?
What is civilized about executing?
Is everyone actually entitled to a trial in this civilized and democratic society?
puzzling:
“What is civilized about executing innocent people?
What is civilized about executing?”
********************
I see you are “puzzled” by our strategy for domestic tranquility. We call it state approved violence. Even more remarkable, our strategy for peace is war. Strange beings these homo sapiens.
Billy: “Blah. Blah. Blah. I have heard this rhetoric before! Everyone who philosophically is opposed to the death penalty says the same thing, come up with a new slant, a new angle, at least make it interesting.”
—
That’s just cold and insulting; the flip side is: “Blah. Blah. Blah. I have heard this rhetoric before! Everyone who philosophically advocates the death penalty says the same thing” regarding your point that the perpetrator once executed will never commit another crime. Come up with a new slant Billy, at least make it interesting.
Billy: “The DA and authorities have the right man 99.9% of the time.”
—
But it’s a real drag if you are that .01 percent:
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/17/la-deputy-shoots-unarmed-man-in-the-back/
And from Wikipedia: Wrongful executions
” … Newly-available DNA evidence has allowed the exoneration of more than 15 death row inmates since 1992 in the U.S.”
Mr. Broome should be paroled, lottakatz(?). And oredered to live next to you and your family, in fact in the house RIGHT next door. Would that strike you right? That’s right, lets cry a river of tears for poor Mr. Broome, who was convicted on “tainted” evidence. He never really raped and savagely killed that little 14 year old girl, it was all just a big mistake….. Fifteen death row inmates exonerated, and thousands, THOUSANDS, who are serving on death row and rightfully so, for “murder one”
We should parole all people on death row, send ‘em back into society, you know, give ‘em another chance.. Thank goodness we don’t have the likes of you boobcatchers running our penal system. Thankfully, our laws and justice system are a bit more sophisticated than that. I guess that’s why you spend all day and night on the internet. I mean with your logic, “everyone” was convicted on “tainted:, planted evidence. I suppose the jury that railroaded Mr. Brooome were all card carrying members of the Klan as well?”
Most of those 15 people who were set free, due to the advent of DNA(which I think is wonderful by the way), all probably were convicted felons, with rap sheets a mile long and had served prior stints in prison for violent crimes….
Like I said last night lottakatz(?), blah, blah, blah, heard it all before…….
The death penalty is a deterrent, once the perpetrator is brought under control and placed on death row and ultimately put to death, he know longer has an opportunity to kill again, he is deterred in perpetuity……
Billy:
It’s just fine you’re not black, didn’t grow up on the Southside of Chicago, and never came into direct contact with Police Commander Jon Burge or anyone under his command.
Henry above said best:
The question is whether innocent people deserve to be executed. It is impossible for the criminal justice system to be foolproof, so, if you support the death penalty, you support the execution of innocent people. I’m not saying, of course, that you like to see the execution of innocent people; I’m saying that you consider the execution of innocent people to be acceptable collateral damage.
erykah with brevity:
State sanctioned murder. Lovely. Give the man life in prison and be done with it.
CCD, I grew up in Detroit, some of my best friends are African-American. Don’t lay your racist clap-trap at my door. You play the race card because you have no other card to play, when the facts are analyzed, I don’t care if you are green, blue or taupe! You commit murder one, you are a dangerous menace to society. The state I live in, has the death penalty. I think it is a fair and just law. Others don’t, what can I say? The criminal system is not full-proof. NOTHING IS. I still don’t understand your point. People are in prison for having commited other felonies, that they never committed, you and I have control over only so much. Clint Eastwood said it best in “Magnum Force”, ‘Man’s Got to Know His Limitations’……
If a person is executed who is innocent, I feel just like you, I am saddened and crestfallen. The likes of Mr. Broome don’t receive my sympathy, emapthy or support. He is a cold-blooded psychopath. He murdered a fourteen year old girl after he brutally raped her. Advocate for the victim CCD…………
The judicial system is not perfect, nothing is, but our system of law is still the best thing going. I don’t think the Death Penalty is a likeable thing, sadly I feel it is a just and fitting thing, for those who commit murder one. Perpetrators that prey on others and take life wantonly for pleasure need to be executed. Our society is very, very civilized and sophisticated. What would most less civilized society’s do to the likes of a Mr. Broome or a Jeffrey Dahmer?
Billy:
I still don’t understand your point. – Billy
My point, you’re an intelligent person with little compassion.
See who Burge is. The state makes error’s. No race card played, just fact.
Very few pepole take pleasure in “the death penalty”. I see it a s a tool or agent of the people, to exact punishment toward those who commit premeditated, first degree murder. I know this topic is a hot button, it always will be..
If the man were white, would you give a shit, or even raise your hand CCD?
My point is simple CCD. I thought I had spent two days articulating it, with little ambiguity. I presume you speak English and understand the written word. I believe the death penalty is a “just and fitting” punishment for those who commit “murder one”, period. I don’t care what color you are. If you do the crime, you do the time….
We also agree the state makes’ errors. We live in a human fallible world, the judges and judicial system try to get it right 100% of the time, sometimes they fail in this endeavor.
C’mon CCD, lets’ not play games. You understand me, and I you. We just fundamentally are at an impasse. We philosophically disagree on the punishment that should be meted out to those who commit murder one. You think they should get life, I feel they should “say hello” to old sparky….
You like?
I use words like “savage” and “brutal”, to illustrate my point when discussing “monsters” like Mr. Broome. I don’t want the civilized society to lose sight of what a vicious predator like Mr. Broome is capable of. Then sit back and reflect on the indescribable loss of this family, who nurtured, loved and inculcated this little girl, for fourteen years. I am tearful just thinking about it….
I am compassionate CCD. You feel I lack magnanimity, because I don’t champion “life” for those who commit ‘murder one’, so be it. I would rather protect the innocent from the psychopath, who feels he has the RIGHT to take life, because he is pissed off at the world, or gets his jollies raping and killing the defenseless because it makes him feel self-actualized!
It happens every day where someone cant find a good vain but they try again just for things like getting blood or putting in IV’s. This man is supposed to die why should he not just because they couldn’t find a vain that day? He was not being mistreated it is not that painful looking for a vain. I’m sure that 14 year old was in a lot more pain.
Tricia, you couldn’t have said it better. Boo-hoo, they couldn’t find Mr. Broomes’ vein. Give me a break!
Advocate for the victim CCD…………
Billy I thought I was:
The innocent person arrested, charged, tried, convicted, sentenced and executed.
Do you know Burge yet?
“We also agree the state makes’ errors. We live in a human fallible world, the judges and judicial system try to get it right 100% of the time, sometimes they fail in this endeavor.”
Billy,
I’m against the death penalty simply because there have been far too many cases of LEO’s and the Judicial system getting it wrong. I have no problem with those truly guilty of Murder One being put to death, but I do have a problem when it happens to innocent people, or because they are not white. Our legal system is quite imperfect: police are pushed to “clear” cases;
Prosecutors are rewarded for high conviction percentages; juries are influenced by lurid media stories convicting the person before the trial. Figure out a way to get past that and I’m with you on the death penalty. Your problem is though that there isn’t a way and I wouldn’t want to see one innocent person die due to a rush to judgment.
The victim is the fourteen year old and her devastated family, not the psychopath felon who murdered her.
Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy weren’t the wrong men. I don’t want to see an innocent person killed either Mike, I also don’t want to see others killed by a “known” killer, who while alive can kill others in or out of the correctional facility. This is why they should “die”, they have already demonstrated they will kill and very well may kill again, if it strikes them right…..
The death penalty is “extreme punishment” meted out to those who commit the most “extreme crime”. With the advent of DNA, the authotities should now be able to get it right, about 99.9% of the time, and that is about as close as you can ever get. Nothing in this world is ever 100% perfect, not even our abused judicial sysytem, although I still feel it is the best thing going..
Sadly, the media circus and sensationalistic aspects of a murder case are inevitable, especially when dealing with serial killers and rapist/murderers who prey on children. When the authorities apprehend the individual in question, they get it right. Public sentiment is never going to be on the side of the perpetrator. It’s a little hard to find objectivity and support for the likes of a Dahmer or Richard Ramirez, in light of the fact they have made the existential decision to violate the mores and norms of our civilized society. When you go out and start raping and killing and try to “cover it up”, it makes the frenzy only that much worse. It is just that they should be killed as humanely as possible. I only wish they would not languish on death row for so long, this to me seems cruel and unnecessary.
“With the advent of DNA, the authorities should now be able to get it right, about 99.9% of the time”
Billy,
I think you are being overly optimistic. In any event the real killers will allow for DNA and take precautions. However,
that still isn’t the point. Most police work is not like CSI. The gathering of evidence takes a back seat to Detectives instincts and the amount of pressure put on them to solve the crime, especially one that makes the evening news. People have been convicted when they’ve had solid alibi’s putting them many miles away, but somehow the alibi was not followed up on. Evidence that is exculpatory has been suppressed by self righteous prosecutors looking for convictions.
Circumstantial evidence of the most superficial nature has convicted people because their legal aid lawyer was overworked, or the publicity assured the appearance of their guilt. This is not one instance, but literally hundreds have been uncovered in only the past few years. Google it if you think I’m exaggerating. Any system that puts to death innocent people is wrong and even from your perspective should be seen as such because it allows the guilty to go free.
Sadly Mike, many, many cases, even “murder one” cases are based on circumstantial evidence. Vincent Bugliosi, the ex-DA from Los Angeles County said it best. “When you gather up all those strands, those many strands of circumstantial evidence, when banded together they make a very thick and powerful rope, This rope is the rope that gets’ the conviction”
Thisin’ is mo-better…
This is why you hope you get DA’s like Bugliosi, who leave no stone unturned. He was brilliant and a legendary bulwark for justice.
You said it best Mike, maybe I’m being overly optimistic. I think in the legal profession, especially if you are a DA, you need optimism, lots and lots of optimism, especially in this day and age, illustrated so beautifully by the highlight reels that you and friend LEO provided. Bad guys just keep gettin sprung, one after the other after the other…
When Tom Horn was hanged in Cheyenne Wyoming in 1903, he asked a deputy bailiff, who believed Horn was innocent, why he was getting killed for a crime that many believed he was innocent of. The young bailff said, “Maybe you’re bein’ hanged for all the other stuff they never caught you doin’ Tom”….
Oh where have you been billyboy, bullyboy
Oh where have you been Charmin’ billy
I have been to see the strife
Snuffed out a’takin’ Missah Broom’s Life
He’s a black man juss aint much worth a-savin’
Federal LEO, man you are one sick disordered puppy! You sit there and mock, yes mock the death of this fourteen year old girl, who has a heartbroken family, for all time, and all you can do is make some STUPID, unintelligent statement implying I am a racist, because this cold-blooded murderer is on death row, and I believe needs to die, the sooner the better. He has spent way to long watching ESPN and lifting weights and eating three hot meals a day, to go on much longer. If he were a white man who killed this girl you wouldn’t give a damn you self serving piece of shit! You only open your loud mouth because he is black and you wanna score some fuckin’ points. Your parents must be so proud, I don’t know who is worse, Mr. Broome the rapist/ murderer, or the likes of you- who is all broken up over his dreadful “holiday” in prison. Eat shit and live LEO…
billy (boy),
I just wanted to “smoke you out” for what I think you really are. Your foul language, instead of reasonable discussion with me, provides the evidence I needed.
You can ask the others who post here regularly; I am an unabashed, strong proponent of the death penalty, as evidenced by my many posts regarding the subject. I just do not want to be lumped in the same category as you reside.
I tryed to be reasonable, but you crossed the line senor. you implied I was a racist and wanted to start playing dirty. You didn’t smoke me out, you only exposed yourself for the small-minded, unintelligent person you truly are. I was reasonable in my discussion, you chose to call me juvenille little names because ‘you” were exposed for being the bullshitter that you are. I bet you believe in nothing and care for nothing…..
Read my post again LEO(?), the “strong one”. I stand by every word of it!
Billy, FFLEO is one of the most intellectually consistent and (one can infer from his previous writings) a man of some formidable intellect and integrity.
two points FYI: around here when a topic is exhausted to the point that the same argument is re-re-re-stated using the same language the participants generally say, ‘we will have to agree to disagree’ and move on to a fresh topic. It keeps people from becoming so invested in an argument that opportunities for personal affront are presented;
when people post personal info and seem to be in some pain and shock about it people on this blog don’t start replies with “Blah, blah, blah” and go on to be insulting and sarcastic. It’s rude, dude, we try to keep it civil.
—————
FFLEO, In for a penny, in for a pound; having de-lurked or de-cloaked you have to stick around now. Nice to see ya.
They should bring the Guillotine back 8o)
Billy please have a look, would you agree with these statements?
1. Any day now, chaos and anarchy could erupt around us. All the signs are pointing to it.
2. Our society is not full of immoral and degenerate groups who viciously attack decent people. News reports of such cases are often sensationalized and misleading.
3. If our society keeps degenerating the way it has been lately, it’s liable to collapse like a rotten log and everything will be chaos.
4. If our society continues to sink into wickedness and corruption, God will destroy us someday as surely as he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
5. We do not live in an increasingly dangerous world headed for anarchy.
6. Law and order still prevail in our society. The rule of reason has not been replaced by the law of the jungle.
Chris:
Can we agree to give Billy all the room he needs to get the job done? Thanks
Thanks CCD, I’ll take it under advisement.
billy,
When someone makes a satirical rhyme as I did, the best option is to think about the reasoning behind such a post. A learned person would not have objected with the foulmouthed juvenile language retort that you chose.
If after reading my jingle and it did not apply to a reader, they would have moved on or chose to rebut what I said just on principle alone and not because they were racist.
From your adverse reaction, I can assume that this—to you—is more than just about the death penalty. Others can make their own judgment. However, I simply cannot respond again to vulgarisms that you use in place of appropriate words required in reasoned debate with a blawg of this caliber.
I have not read in depth about Mr. Broom, although he might well deserve the death penalty; however, he must not be humiliated and abused during his last days of life by acts of governmental sanctioned barbarism. The treatment to which this criminal is subjected negates the justice I espouse in the death penalty, at least in this specific case, for me.
Thank you Lottakatz. I like this place and the exceptionally good folks here, like you.
My, my FFLeo, you have incurred the scorn of billy the foul mouthed racist. I would take it as a compliment.
Mespo can’t take any criticism, his bloated ego won’t tolerate it for a moment. You need to get layed loser..
Mr. Federal LEO, Blah, Blah, Blah, you just got worked today, so did mespo…
Bill:
Let me be the first to say good-bye.
Your incivility will earn you a vacation from this oasis.
I spoke to soon when I praised the contributers to this blog, Mespunk, Stupidone and Federal B.O., are pretty sorry excuses for my gender. All three are pussies!
For the comfort of all patrons, children must be accompanied by an adult or heavily sedated before getting on the rides. Keep your hands in the car at all times. Management cannot be held responsible for any maimings that may occur otherwise.
Take a Free Ride:
The mountain is high, the valley is low
And you’re confused ’bout which way to go
So I flew here to give you a hand
And lead you into the promised land
So, come on and take a free ride (free ride)
Come on and take it by my side
Come on and take a free ride
All over the country, I’m seeing the same
Nobody’s winning, at this kind of game
We gotta do better, it’s time to begin
You know all the answers
Must come from within.
Cept somehow I think that they are speaking about sex.
Buddha, you illustrate a good point. I wonder how old billy is?
billy if you are just a (boy) in age, then I can overlook your earlier transgressions. Therefore, if you are under 21, please inform us and let’s see you contribute positively to this blawg and I will forget what you said. We need more young people here.
However, if you are over 21, no deal.
FFLeo:
“Buddha, you illustrate a good point. I wonder how old billy is?”
*********************
Judging from his syntax (“dude” in another thread) I’d say 25 or so chronologically; judging from the quality of commentary, I’d say that precocious 13-15 year old phase. He is cute, you know!
Mespo, you need to stop blogging and go out and get layed. I’m sure the gay bars in your neighborhood are still up and running. If you hurry you can probably find some 70-80 yr. old drag queen to dry hump, in the back seat of your 73′ ford Pinto. Enjoy froot-loop…
(Holds closed envelope to forehead.)
“The number 15.”
(Ed chortles. Johnny opens envelope.)
“What is billy’s age and IQ.”
(Crowd erupts with laughter.)
It’s “get laid”, you imbecile.
Which you’d know if you’d ever been.
Run along now, childrens.
Come back and trade barbs with the adults when you can shave and you’ve kissed a girl besides mommy.
Yeah, you are useyourhead.
Ok, billy-troll, I’ll explain this one last time:
You are way out of the kiddie pool here. Your arguments as superficial at best. Your insults are amateurish and infantile. You’ll never get much serious engagement here under any ID with that kind of performance.
Why?
Because even troll killers have catch and release standards.
Now go ask mom for some chocolate milk and tell her you’re using the computer again. If you’re the new front line in trolls? Your kind is doomed.
Enjoy the chocolate milk.
I take it you liked my “bon mot’. Yours was OK too…
No, little billy-troll. I was just making sure you got outted for real since you insisted on using the term Buddhapest again and showing your hand. So lame you can’t even come up with a new (or better) taunt than that, huh? Please. It’s nice to see you are still going to useyourhead, useyourhead. The really interesting choice is that you’ve chosen to use it as a suppository.
I just think you’re stupid. A rebel without a clue.
It’s really that simple.
But if you run along and play with the other minnows, you might (might) survive the natural selection process to become an adult troll. Here, you’re just going to be a snack or ignored as a small fry.
Billy:
I have deleted three posts from you, particularly in personal attacks on BIL. Please comply with our civility rule. We do not welcome personal taunts or attacks on this site.
Thanks JT, I wish BIL and mespo would abide by the same rules.
Prof.,
I take your point. If you’re tightening the rule to include trolls, I’ll comply.
I would so love to debate you on-on-one buddha. You are a weak sister, I would make mincemeat out of you….
I shredded you in the past so many times, your not even challenging..
I’ll play nice. You regulars should play nice also. You are quick to refer to people as “racists” and resort to vitriol and invective when it suits your argument.. let’s stick to the facts, I respect JT and his blog. My bad….
Billy and BIL,
I appreciate your cooperation. If any of the regulars feel that someone is violating the civility rule, they should email me rather than start of thread of taunts back and forth.
Prof.,
One lives to be of service. I’ll never complain about refinement. If giving up a small part of my fun in tormenting trolls is part of the cost in refining the very civility rule I asked to be enforced in different circumstance, it’s a price I’ll gladly pay. In that spirit, I’ll ask for a clarification in advance.
Directly insulting trolls is out, but as a fine line distinction, are there any other restrictions on indirect ridicule that may come about in humorously ridiculing their positions, e.g. plays on screen names like “bdarube” or when the counter is against something/some subject that some might consider personal and off limits while others may not, the prime example being the wide variety of religious practices often on display here and subject to debate. Just curious. Practicing aikido – the best way to avoid trouble is not to be there when it starts.
billy,
That’s quite an active imagination you have there.
Somebody got in trouble.
Nah nah na na nana. Don’t make it too rough and have the good professor throw you in the trap at the end of the dark hole. Oh, wait a minute you could probably be entitled to protection under the Bush program called TRAP or was that TARP?
I would check with your attorney to see if you have any other rights. You may have protection under the ADA. Condoms are not required butt recommended.
This is not a solicitation for business and is to be used for informational purposes only. It is not directed to anyone in particular unless you are Terry aka Hulk Hogan and have any money left.
Then please do call my office of Dewey, Cheetham and Howe. Located in a Jurisdiction close to you and you may make the 3.5 million retainer check payable to Howe, Dewey Cheetham, so quickly. Both Professional 501-3-C tax exempt entities.
We do have a sharp Tax attorney in upper NY. Who uses our sister related entity in NJ.
Civility Monitor
It’s neither trap nor tarp.
It’s merely a clarification.
You Texans. I swear. Did you see that article on the Austin PD looking to go after online critics? What’s up with that?
Buddha, see up-thread** for what I consider an uncivil thread filled with ad hominem attacks and outrageous claims (although I am *not* requesting its removal unless billy continues ad nauseam).
**_________________________________
billy
1, September 18, 2009 at 2:27 pm
___________________________________
Buddha, I suggest that you employ hard satire against whomever you choose; however, as a cyber-friend, I think you are best at using biting, direct, reasoned debate without any ad hominem attacks. Let Professor Turley determine who is violating *his* civility rules—as he did recently, which I think that was an example of just cause—while continuing with your satirical comments that are fact-based, but especially continue with your topic research and logical debates .
I like good satire and witticisms, I do not want to see too much censorship, and I think most of us know the difference between satires and outright biased, untenable attacks. Some people deserve ridicule and we see that all the time with Professor Turley’s posts.
Therefore, we must respect Prof. T’s request and take the time to send him an e-mail if the attacks become too personal. I do not plan to take that route because I do not want to consume anymore of his valuable time. As we all know, avoidance of posts containing attacks is most often the best policy; other than rebuttals/refutations based on fact.
Finally, I think that after a month’s absence, anyone must receive the rights of redemption.
FFLEO,
No issue with any of that. I merely wanted a clarification. The hard satire is often an unwieldy tool. I have my reasons for wanting to master it and none of them are germane to this conversation. I know I have a sharp tongue and usually I’m pretty good at gauging the “amount of force” I use. Satire is a blade with an edge as well as a useful flat. To learn to use both features in concert to best advantage it is best to master them individually (or that’s my methodology anyway). That being said I know I am far from perfect. I also know I’ve gone too far purposefully to prove a point in the past and that is something I personally have resolved to refrain from in the future. I’ve poked at the line enough to know broad parameters. As I said, the question was in the spirit of avoiding issues. I have no desire to cross the line through misadventure. I’m not asking for any other reason than clarification. I have no present complaint. My motivations in re the Prof’s rule are no more complicated than that. I’m trying to be a good citizen via premptive strike. And as always I thank you for your valuable input. The blog was a poorer place in your absence.
Satire= the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
Like the following:
KC Royals stealing the paycheck instead of home plate.
George H. W. Bush being in a room alone and he being the smartest person in the room.
Like a Dick Cheney moving back to Montana from Maryland and by doing so he raised the IQ of Both.
Now what Irony is not:
Catching your farm hand on a date with your prize heifer;
Steak cooked on a gas grill;
A 1 1/2″ Steak cooked more than 5 minutes on wood burning fire pit.
The above are abominations against man kind.
nOW
Oh almost forgot this one. Getting a Divorce in Tennessee and finding out that she is still your sister.
My apologies to all, JT, Federal LLEO, Mespo and Buddha and all those I have offended. I was quite uncharitable to you gentlemen, have a super saturday and enjoy the football..
JT’s got the best law blog goin’. Great group of thinkers. Now back to Michigan state and Notre Dame. Go Blue!
billy,
You are new here and we have had several others who started out as you did, but who progressed to become valued regular posters to the fine blawg. Their principles did not change, although their debating skills grew markedly to the extent that we anticipate their participation in all threads.
There are many fine, intelligent people here who are skilled debaters. If you are open-minded enough to accept fair criticism, you will soon learn as much as I have from them.
Lil Billy,
Maybe the luck of the Irish be up on ya. Go State. Ok, I guess that Go Blow or is that how you spell Go Blew?
Slickone, it is GO Blue. Michigan knocked off E. Michigan 45-17. Slickone, who do you think wins the Texas Tech- Texas game in Austin. I smell upset guys….
Ok, I know its Go Blow. I have seen it written many times. Maze is that not corn? E MI, Last year Tech deserved to win. The only time you needed to watch the game was the first 5 and last 3 minutes. That Crabtree is good and he got cheated out of the Heisman.
However my money is on Texas. However you spell it The University; the University of Texas; or Texas’ University; or God’s Gift to the Civilized World, it is one in the same, don’t you agree?
So if God is not Texas Longhorn, then why’s the sunset Burnt Orange? Hummm?
Slickone, I live and die for Michigan football! RR is getting things turned around nicely in Ann Arbor. The Maize and Blue is a little thin on defense, but with todays win, they have equaled last season’s abysmal total.. Mike Leach has got a new stud at QB. This kid is gonna make people forget about Graham Harrell in a hurry. Texas Tech is gonna give the Horns’ all they want tonight in Austin. How bout the Trojans, knotted at half time up in Seattle against the Huskies. I smelled upset here, after last weeks shaky offensive performance in Columbus. Second half yet to go. Goood luck on todays football picks, I’ll check in later.
Pete Carrol LOST! The men from Troy look very vulnerable. Heck, they lost to a Husky team that went 0-12 last season. OUCH! I don’t think Pete’s Trojans are gonna be #3 in the land on monday morn. Maybe CW is finally able to win a big game in South bend(they did today), and knock off a Trojan team that has a pretty anemic offense. Methinks Pete C. will have his “kids” ready to play in South bend on Oct. 17. Go Blue!
Okay everybody, not a word that I’ve peeked in today, which being Rosh Hashonah I really shouldn’t have. Then too as a Deist Jew I do allow myself certain latitude. The interplay though with Billy and its’ resolution have been too interesting to miss out on.
Billy,
When I first started seeing your comments I was happy to have you aboard, you were thoughtful and brought a new perspective which is always welcome. The first inkling of problems came with your exuberant comments on another thread talking about “chicks” and a “hot latina waitress.” I found it disturbing, but chalked it up to possibly your age. This is not because I’m a sexual prude, but because I respect women. Then when you began to take on Mespo, Buddha, et. al. I came to see there was a problem and here it is in my opinion:
Questioning peoples manhood is immature and as life has taught both of the two old codgers here, FFLEO being the other, not smart. In life the people who are really tough, or really capable of administering a verbal thrashing, never have to go out of their way to prove it. They also never need to question the manhood of their opponent. That’s schoolyard stuff.
Secondly, this is a gay friendly website, so the implication of being gay, or the stereotype of male gay effeminacy (or for lesbians “butchiness”)is not cool. It is certainly not going to be respected as a debating style.
In your own words you’ve said you appreciate this site for its’ uniqueness as blogs go. That uniqueness is generally its civility and the intelligence of its posters. No doubt you’ve been to many other blogs and have noticed that the level of discourse is mainly rather poor and uninformed. Here you get the chance to interact with some very smart people and even an old fart like me finds himself learning things every day.
Your expression of regret is most welcome by me and truly exhibits maturity. By the way we’re not asking you to back down from an argument, none of us do, but please make your points based on the issues at hand and not on a “schoolyard call out”
level. Welcome aboard and I hope to enjoy your contributions.
Thanks Mike, sorry if I offended..
To all of our Jewish visitors let me wish you a (belated) greeting and good wishes on this day of atonement and looking forward to the new year; may your pockets be empty as you leave the river’s edge and your sins simply a memory. And thanks for the profoundly important act for which you atone.