Res ipsa loquitur ("The thing itself speaks")
The House floor was the scene of some heated exchanges after Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-NY) took the floor to address the 9/11 Health and Compensation Act.
While this is merely a heated and not offensive exchange. It is representative of the diminishing level of discourse in Congress on both sides. Congress is becoming the WWF without the folding chairs and pile drivers.
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Good. I think Democrats ought to be doing more of this.
I agree, Nal.
“I will not yield ….”
******************
One of the more courageous and passionate statements I’ve heard on the floor – because he truly meant it. In matters of great moment, true emotion has a place. I would not equate it with a crass attempt at false emotion in the pursuit of commercial interests like the WWF.
I have echo the earlier responses. Rep. Weiner was showing true emotion over the disgusting lack of compassion and common sense that is being exhibited by the Republicans. In this case there were too many Dems who were also not willing to help those who risked their lives to help in the aftermath of 9/11. This is another example that the Republicans have no intention of governing and only want to make sure Obama and America fail.
The gentleman was fighting for his constituents … the other gentleman was covering for his republican buddies … well done Mr. Weiner
Jimmy Stewart would be proud. Nice job, Rep. Weiner.
A Democrat bashing Republicans about ‘what’s right.’ Let’s not get too excited. Although it would be good to see more passion in Congressional debates.
“Good. I think Democrats ought to be doing more of this.”
Won’t be many left to do it come November.
I’m eagerly awaiting Sen Ensign’s Grand Jury results … criminal indictments? Something for everyone!
oops … wrong thread
Well done, Congressman. Conservatives deserve no better than to be shouted down to show our contempt for the damage they’ve done. It’s about time they come to recognize and appreciate that virtually ever problem this country has is of their making and it’s not okay. They are the problem, not a solution.
bdaman It might not be as good for republicans as you think. Sharon Angle and the tea party crazies are causing the more recent polls to shift a bit.
Congressman Weiner And Grayson.You go guys.!!
His beef should be with his fellow Denocrats, D-255 R-178. Good acting though.
Oh, I have read numerous accounts of rough housing in the House of Rep, if my recollection is correct that was where duel of Hamilton and Burr was escalated.
AY
Gotta love the House … I think we should arm them all with squirt guns … we have regular, splatter shot, and super soaker …
Rep. Weiner said what needed to be said. It’s just that it needs to be said more often.
Thank you Mike A….
And Blouise,
I thought the super soak-er was termed out of the whitehouse…..
AY,
Okay … how about a monthly lottery wherein one member is chosen, at random, to be fired from a water cannon mounted on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial ….
That sounds good, but aren’t you worried about the air borne pollutants
AY,
Fill out an EPA “impact” statement?
Or would that be an “on impact” statement?
Ok. … that’s a problem … so let’s arm the citizens who have gathered around with raw eggs, tomatoes, and small watermelons in order to bring down the larger pollutants.
… we could call them a Gallagher Gathering bent on cleaning up our political environment
Yes Buddha and Blouise,
You both have valid points. But Buddha, if they know you did it, then you are responsible for the cost of clean up. Of course unless you are Haliburton then you just escape all liability, so far. Its safer with Fruits and Vegetables as they are biodegradable, the members are just degradable….
… is it possible that all of you weren’t invited to the wedding? I stopped my monthly contribution to the DNC and the Clinton fund so I know that’s why my invitation never arrived ….
AY,
No one pays attention to a poly green guy carrying a watermelon … they’ll never know who to bill …
lol
Blouise two days in a row, it first started with “The Look”
It is all a bunch of theatrics.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2010/0730/Anthony-Weiner-rant-reveals-why-nobody-likes-Congress
wow, the christian science monitor doesn’t like something a democrat did. i’m shocked shocked i tells ya.
the republicans wanted to tack on amendments and the dem just wanted to vote on the bill.
Pete,
The problem is that he was castigating King who had voted for the bill. Somehow, he was supposed to be responsible for the actions of all Republicans.
The CS Monitor is just the first one that came up on Google. If you want WaPo, it is here, but they are much harsher on Weiner:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/07/anthony_weiners_rant_captures.html
I, for one, do not believe this was theatrics in the least. In fact, I’m sure of it. Congressman Weiner is a good Democrat, a progressive Democrat. He’s not a moderate or a blue dog or a conservative or a corporate Democrat. As a progressive he is rightly frustrated by the tactics of the do-nothing-for-people-only-for-corporations Republicans. He called them out on their little game (I especially enjoyed the mocking Republicans when he said, “Oh, if only it were a different procedure……..”) and we should see much more of it. It’s about bloody time the conservatives were yelled at sa they most dserve to be. Gioven all the damage they’ve done to the economy, the national debt, the Comnstitution and the country at large, they should be happy they’re allowed to vote.
Trader B,
He was castigating King because King was standing up for the other Republicans who voted against it. He knows the game they are playing and he called them out on it.
rcampbell, I second your thoughts 100%. Weiner is a true progressive and he is fed up with anti-American crap that the Republicans have been spewing in order to try to stop the Dems agenda.
rcampbell:
I don’t really know anything about him. You may want to comment at WaPo. Referring to his rant as superficial is not exactly a compliment from another Democrat.
“Thats’s hardly a groundbreaking point, obviously, but Dems need to stop responding superficially to Republican opposition….”
Congress does not have this authority (unless it is willing to admit they are responsible for the attack). There is no federal power granted for this. No one twisted the arms of the rescuers to rescue, but who or what has twisted the minds of our leaders?
What we see in the video is a stark-raving loon standing up in congress screaming hysterically about right and wrong, when he is wrong himself.
This is typical of the self-righteous hypocrisy we get from Democrats. I wish a GOPer had asked him which power authorizes the taxation for this cause.
Unfortunately, this would trip-up the Republican too because he wouldn’t know how the Constitution (as it stands) forbids it. And he knows even less about what the Framers and the ratification members thought it meant.
This is by design.
Democrats have been horribly successful at intentionally hiding the history of our great Constitution from the whole of the American people by neglecting to teach it in the schools they run.
Generations haven’t studied The Federalist, Elliot’s Debates or Farrand’s Records. They are not schooled in the thinking of the founders and framers. The heritage surrounding how the rule of law was established in this country has been obliterated from the public schools.
They do not teach the Magna Carta, Lex Rex, Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (a best seller during the founding era and promoted by John Adams). They refuse to teach about the influence of Calvin, Zwingli, and Knox.
Missing is the knowledge about the development of Anglo-Saxon law, arguably the greatest system of law ever to have developed. Missing is the knowledge of the Rights of Englishmen. Those rights being that which the founders and framers believed had been abused by King George.
All these should be the main focus of civics study for American students throughout their compulsory enslavement captivity to state run schools.
But no. If these things were taught while they were interred, they might learn they are free. They would learn they could nullify law. They would learn they would secede from despotic government. They would learn they have a right and duty to resist tyrants. They would learn that absolute power must never be arbitrary or it is abuse of power.
This sort of thing makes lawyers, judges, cops, and legislators (tax feeders) nervous. How will they make a honest living if the people learn that power rests in themselves?
You cannot have a despotic Marxist state if hundreds of millions of school children are adequately educated about the Constitution and what led to it.
That simply won’t be tolerated by the screamers among us.
TraderB: Weiner understood the game King was playing; the latter’s aye vote was planned with the knowledge that there were insufficient votes for cloture. He was merely covering himself with his New York constituency.
Tootie: As much as you may wish for the return of 18th century Protestantism to its rightful place of primacy in this country, it is not going to happen.
Mike A., Amen
Tootie, how can those historical issues be taught when the country is still stuck in the Bush, no child left behind fiasco? History isn’t even on the state tests and have you seen the history books coming out of Texas?
Mike Appleton:
Wisdom and justice are never out of fashion except to despots and tyrants. It is important to pursue wisdom and justice. And the fact is that Protestants WERE pursuing them here before the Constitution was founded and did a bang up job of it. It is dishonest not to teach it.
And democrats don’t teach it because they are dishonest.
As much as you may wish for the revival of old fashioned despotism and Marxism, but I’m going to make sure they are not revived without my resistanc.
If you do not mind reviving the path of the despots who came before you, I do not see how you could chasten me for trying to revive the path of those before me who stopped despots.
Without what I am trying to revive, there is only despotism.
“diminishing level of discourse in Congress on both sides.”
Really Johnathan? Reacting to the GOP’s attempts to play politics with aid to 9/11 rescue workers (many of whom live in Weiner’s district) with anger is “diminishing level of discourse”? Given the full context (which you do a poor job of presenting here) I would call it behaving like a human being.
What diminishes the level of discourse in Congress is having a Republican delegation lead by people who have gladly exploited 9/11 and its heroes for political gain but have turned their backs on them when it’s recognizing their sacrifices becomes the least bit inconvenient.
The problem with Congress isn’t a lack of civil discourse. It’s that frequently civil discourse is used as a cover for unconscionable acts, and anyone who dares stand up to it is belittled for breaking the false comity that shields the perpetrators of those acts from accountability.
This is pretty obviously what the Democrats should have been doing all along; loudly and dramatically calling the Republican out on their obstructionism and never stopping. But they decided to try for “compromise” and “bipartisanship” and they got nailed every time.
Bdaman: ” “Good. I think Democrats ought to be doing more of this.” … “Won’t be many left to do it come November.”
++++
While I think you’re wrong on that assessment it would be interesting if you were right. The Republicans have given everyone a perfect blueprint of how to rule from the minority position, one even a Democrat has to be well schooled on by now. If the Dems do lose their majority I will be waiting to see if they put their recent education to good use and shut down the government as effectively as the Repubs have, in effect treat Republican initiatives as shabbily as their own have been. If so: good on them. If not: well, we would have our suspicions of “same team – different uniforms” validated.
Still, I think you’re wrong.
“No one twisted the arms of the rescuers to rescue, but who or what has twisted the minds of our leaders?”
*********
I knew Tootie functioned without an intellect, but confirmation that he/she/it functions without an ounce of human compassion for those who risked their lives saving others is staggering. In case you didn’t know it there Tootie, human decency and compassion need no constitutional authorization, and as the Christian around here with the biggest sleeve, I would have thought you would have understood this little pearl of wisdom from your own mythology. (You seem so well-versed in all other the foolishness, but none of the profundity.) Making citizens whole who sacrificed for their fellow countrymen is as old as government itself, but alas, for you everything is eternally shining and new. I’d call you a troll but I hate giving bridges a bad name by association.
I respect your opinion lottakatz but the mood of the country says different and it all started with Scott Brown. The democrats are imploding. The majority did not like stimulus, healthcare, take over of G.M. and now how this administration is handling immigration. The Dems have lost the independents and are now losing the Hispanic vote over another broken promise by Obama.
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg blasted the outcome of the vote and criticized both parties.
“It was wrong for the overwhelming majority of Republicans to vote against the bill,” Bloomberg told reporters, “and it was wrong for Democrats to bring the bill to the floor under rules that made passage so much more difficult.”
Thursday’s vote occurred under suspension of House rules, which is usually used for non-controversial legislation and limits the debate on the bill, prohibits amendments from being added and requires a two-thirds majority to pass.
Although the bill did not pass the House Thursday, New York Reps. Carolyn Maloney, Jerrold Nadler and Peter King, the bill’s sponsors, said that the 255 votes in favor of the bill — which included 11 Republicans in addition to King — show that the Zadroga Act has the support of the majority and is likely to pass when it comes up again under “normal rules.”
Tootie: “Congress does not have this authority (unless it is willing to admit they are responsible for the attack). There is no federal power granted for this. No one twisted the arms of the rescuers to rescue,…”
_____
Thank you dear, you’ve saved me the trouble of any but this response to you; tough you grate on my soul with you’re positions none but you could refute them quite so succinctly.
The virtue and appropriateness of small government in the minds of the conservatives always returns to the positions that either the market will move to take up the functions of government in a more cost effective manner or that citizen organized efforts of an institutional or spontaneous nature would provide for those aspects of the “common good” that the market did not.
The argument that private charities. churches, privately funded foundations, and the great, good spirit of individuals wold take care of the indigent and suffering, the disabled and unfortunate among us is a constant refrain. That the spirit of volunteerism and local response can act more quickly and with more pure motives than the response of a distant government is touted as the ideal of an effective, citizen owned society. Between god and the good hearts of our fellow citizens nothing that needs doing, no matter how difficult, can’t be done when it needs doing.
So here we are, 10 years down the road from a massive disaster and the very people, employed and volunteers alike, that responded with alacrity, tirelessness and the indomitable spirit conservatives tout as the salvation of our nation are suffering, suffering to death in many cases, and what is the conservative reward for their exemplary activities, their living monument to the spirit that makes government unnecessary?
“No one twisted the arms of the rescuers to rescue,…”
“No one
twisted
the arms of the rescuers
to rescue,…”
After other public and private means of recognition and the alleviation of their burdens run out or fail what does the conservative model have to offer?
“No one twisted the arms of the rescuers to rescue,…”
So much for YOUR christian charity, your conservative purity, your moral high ground and the value of your political philosophy Tootie.
“No one twisted the arms of the rescuers to rescue,…”
Indeed.
and I wonder what is and has happened to the republicans? Maybe they have too many splinter groups to rally the troops. Tea Baggers, Ron Paul Loyalist, NRA, Abortion Abolition, Bushs legacy…the world has a lot to look forward with a GOP run country, come on give me a break….What is left for them to pocket anyway, they made the dollar worthless, bankrupted the country with this “necessary war”, let people know that the value of people was worth less than the dollar and support tax decreases to the wealthiest while they move themselves out of the country and companys too. What a legacy, Look up the Dart Family…all are residents of foreign countries while worth more than 78 billion dollars, why? Oh yeah, they got breaks under GeoI and the scooted…what a legacy….at least the Kennedys and Rockafellers stole there money the fair way and stayed….why is it that the wealthiest move?
Look at what the US is doing to R Allen Standford, all those off shore accounts. Why did the Government state that he had a ponzi scheme, so they could look at all of the Off Shore accounts ownership….He has been in custody for what 18, 19 months and not charged….why not? Oh yeah the Swiss finally got even with the US over its extortion, who is this Roman guy again….oh yeah in safe haven and can now travel the world as basically a free man because of international politics…..Just got to love it. Surely you are kidding when you say the Dems are imploding…..
I just read that Ronald Reagan and Obama have had almost exactly the same approval ratings since the beginning of Obama’s term. If you look at a chart they are close to identical. It stasrts at 64% to and goes down to about 50% so far.
Who’d have guessed? Politics is full of surprises.
Bdaman, If the Dems are losing the independents it’s because the independents voted for real, substantial change and that’s not what we’re getting.
The majority of people polled wanted a government option or single payer and we’re unhappy we didn’t get that so yes, were unhappy with the health care bill and the $600- and skyward monthly charges for the high-risk insurance pools we’re offered in response to the shameless lack of overage people with per-existing conditions have under a market driven system.
The stimulus has been strangled by the Senate and there’s to little of it (and too much of it going to build massive intelligence and military use palaces) and not enough has gotten down to infrastructure, small business and new technology; there’s too little stimulus and it’s being bled off by the same ol’.
If people would rather have the selection of teabagger nuts available to them than liberals so be it. I see that as a step toward real change, obviously things aren’t bad enough to make people take to the streets and agitate for the kind of change I and millions of others want. Maybe we need another summer of ’68 to kick it into high gear. Historically having cities burn tends to turn around the government. There were civil rights laws on the books since ’48 but no real enforcement until after ’68.
The great river of history develops meanders so extreme they meet themselves and cut a new channel in an opposing direction leaving lakes with islands in their center, destined to dry up and fade away with time. I am getting the feeling that we are living in a period when the meander has become acute, that we are no longer in he past but not yet in the future, and that future is going to be amazing. Maybe amazingly bad, maybe amazingly good. I’m just going to cast my votes and hope I’m on high enough ground not to get washed away completely.
Losing Independents? It makes me crazy to hear the way people talk about “the Independents”.
The Independents aren’t sitting on the fence — they’re sitting on the SIDELINES. They rightly feel that there is no point in joining the fight when the so-called leaders don’t even believe in their own rhetoric. That’s why jack-asses like George Bush have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams — because they actually believe, fervently, in their message.
Anthony Weiner might be “acting” or he might be sincere, but at least he’s “acting” sincere. What are all of the other Democrats on the hill doing these days… they’re acting as though they care not one damn about the party platform they all pledged to support. This goes first and foremost for Barak Obama. It’s not like the platform is some vague notion, it’s a blank and white document. You can read it your self right here — http://www.democrats.org/a/party/platform.html
“If the Dems are losing the independents it’s because the independents voted for real, substantial change and that’s not what we’re getting.”
I agree however the result is still the same no matter the reason.
“obviously things aren’t bad enough to make people take to the streets”
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/542171/201007301830/Will-Washingtons-Failures-Lead-To-Second-American-Revolution-.aspx
Your last paragraph I couldn’t agree with you more.
Nice comment Digital Dave, you b right about dat.
At least the GOP has fulfilled their platform of avoiding punishment for treason for the Bush Gang. And deregulating Big Oil and Big Pharma and Big Insurance. Oh, and their promise to filibuster anything that doesn’t benefit them or their corporate masters directly. Let’s not forget their efforts using trolls and half-wits like Newt Gingrich to stir up hatred and Islamophobia so Al-Qaeda will have more recruiting tools. And their stand against unemployment benefits extensions in an economy that was wrecked under their watch. How about that anti-LGBT agenda? And let’s not forget anti-abortion agendas too because what the world clearly needs is more unwanted and unsupported children.
Yeah, bdaman, I think you missed the point (as usual) of Digital Dave’s comment. He could have substituted GOP for Democrats and it would have read the same way. People of neither party are doing the jobs their oaths of office require.
Independents are independents not because the support either the GOP or the DNC but rather because they’re sick of both gangs of lying, back-stabbing, sellout, graft-ridden corporatist bastards who look to lining their own pockets instead of protecting the rights and interests of citizens over corporations.
“Yeah, bdaman, I think you missed the point (as usual) of Digital Dave’s comment. He could have substituted GOP for Democrats and it would have read the same way. People of neither party are doing the jobs their oaths of office require.”
You’d b right about that too Mr. Buddha
“And let’s not forget anti-abortion agendas too because what the world clearly needs is more unwanted and unsupported children.”
That would be the cockroach effect. More mouths to use up resources and release CO2 destroying the planet.
You probably want a one child policy like China.
Sucks to be wrong all the time, doesn’t it badtroll?
By the way, how’s that false equivalence strategy working out for you?
Because being pro-women’s rights is not the equivalent of being for a Chinese “one-child” policy.
Still not learning from your failures I see.
This only confirms you’re a Neocon Republican.
Mr. Buddha maybe in your eyes, which I’m sure are squinty with pupils dilated this morning. cough, cough, here, hold it in, it’s $200 a quarter.
What you are sure of means exactly nothing in relationship to the truth. But don’t worry. You’re still ,1,, with me, PropagandaPuppet.
I’m honored, eeerrrrr want anymore of this before I put it out.
I want nothing you have to offer. It’s all bunk.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/us/politics/01obama.html
Here’s a little ray of sunshine: the received wisdom is that the healthcare reform is wildly unpopular, but in fact 50% of Americans now have a favorable view of the program while only 37% oppose it.
http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/8084.cfm
Who’d a guessed?
Yissil,
I know several people who can’t wait for the program to kick in … they are quite unhappy with the 2014 date.
This a post from way back in the thread, but i thought I would comment:
smallguvguy:
——————————————————–
His (Weiner’s) beef should be with his fellow Denocrats,
D-255 R-178. Good acting though.
————————————————-
But it’s a straight party line vote: there are 255 dems and 178 r’s in the house.
Probably just a brain fart on smallguvguy’s part. He must have thought he saw something that wasn’t there.
Blouise:
I it has already kicked in for some people. The high risk pool for instance.
I don’t know if people get this, but the Republicans aren’t ahead in the House, in terms of getting a majority. The Dems will lose a lot of seats, which always happens to the President’s party after his first election, but they are at least as likely as not to hang on to the majority.
The New York Times poll has the dems fairly solidly ahead:
http://elections.nytimes.com/2010/house
Real Clear Politics has the two parties essentially tied:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2010/house/2010_elections_house_map.html
As I showed before, the idea that the president is intensely unpopular isn’t true: he’s at about 45%, about the same as Ronald Reagan at this point in his presidency, and probably for the same reason (a recession.)
The Dems will lose at least about 30 seats, but whether or not they keep the majority will be at worst a close run thing. Or so the polls say.
If the Republicans do not take Congress back, we can expect 2 more years of recession (Depression?). The rich are on strike. They are not hiring, but are making money hand over fist with lean staffs. They are hoarding it or sending it overseas.
The uncertainty over health-care costs, taxes and compulsory unionization have them frightened of adding more people in spite of the orders pouring in. There is also fear that Obama will seize your company under some pretext. Better to slowly liquidate U.S. operations and invest overseas.
They are hoarding it or sending it overseas.
Companies are turning in healthy profits, and are sitting on a record-breaking pile of cash — nearly $1 trillion and growing.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/27/news/economy/fear_economy/index.htm
People do not really focus on the races until after Labor Day. The key will be the economy. There was some hope that it was picking up, but Bernanke threw a wet blanket on that idea. It is likely that unemployment will rise as employers begin to lose hope.
TraderB:
“They are hoarding it or sending it overseas.”
they have been doing that since November 5th of 2008 and in a big way. They have divesting themselves of property in the US.
Hopefully this economic disaster will end and the adults will take control of the Fed and SEC and Congress and will follow sound economic principles. Something the last 4 presidents have been want to do. Although Bill Clinton did have his feet held to the fire by a republican congress which at that time had some fiscal sanity.
The economy.
You mean the one Obama inherited from a Republican President and a Republican controlled Congress.
Yep.
It’ll be an issue alright. One the Democrats will remind people every chance they get as to who is responsible with their 30 years of deregulation started under Reagan and TARP – brought to you by the Bush Administration. The same people who brought you the Savings & Loan debacle of 80′s & 90′s. All of which cumulated in what was essentially rewarding white collar criminal friends (and relatives lest you forget Neil Bush) of the GOP.
Yeah. It’s not all good news for the Dems on the economy because they haven’t pulled the car out of the ditch.
But the good news is they weren’t the ones who drove it into the ditch in the first place.
Alan Greenspan has something to say to Republicans about the economy.
The comments from the former Fed chief were an elaboration of a position he outlined in an interview earlier in the week. Speaking with PBS’ Judy Woodruff, Greenspan expressed his opposition to passing legislation that would hold tax rates steady (under law the tax cuts Bush passed ten years ago are going to expire, thereby bringing rates back to Clinton-era levels). President Obama has pledged to continue the tax breaks for those individuals making under $200,000 and those families earning less than $250,000.
But Republicans want the entire package kept in place. Even so, they have declined to say how they would pay for it, saying, in part, that keeping the Bush tax cuts in place will pay for itself.
In addition to throwing cold water on that theory, Greenspan also weighed in on broader economic issues and trends. The former Fed Chairman relayed some sobering economic predictions, saying he expected the nation’s unemployment rate to remain at its current level, mainly because there were few tools left to change it.
“I see it [as] we just stay where we are,” he said. “There is a gradual increase in employment but not enough to reduce the level of unemployment …There is nothing out there that I can see which will alter the trend or the level of unemployment in this country.”
lol. We seem to have changed the subject for some reason …
You mean the one Obama inherited from a Republican President and a Republican controlled Congress.
Yep thats it, thats the one, they sure did set this fool up for a good one, had to see it coming, dirty bastards. Them jokers left a trail long enough that ain’t nobody gonna figure out exactly what dem der fellas was doin for years.
and this one here knows it to, why do you think he takes so many vacations and hoopin it up, he don’t give a damn, he’s fucked and knows it, the mans all for show I tell ya, seen’ em on the View just the other day.
Greenspan, what is it with you and the green, other than you aint got none, except all up in here.
Visual
(hand open fingers extended waving in front of face)
Bet you lost your ass in pool the other night and still went home with your hand in your pocket, lady friend didn’t work out none neither, probably to young.
Buddha:
Greenspan is a fool, he was responsible for the mess we found ourselves in that necessitated the TARP which the idiot Bush and Paulson delivered to bale out there BFF’s on Wall St. However these policies are again being followed by the Obama administration which is going to end up administering a coup de grace to our wounded economy.
Third world status here we come. Sired by a compassionate conservative and mid-wifed by a far left democrat. A bi-partisan feat of duplicity, malfeasance and stupidity.
Unemployment is going up on August 4th according to early reports.
Census is finished and now all them boys who were knocking out 35-4500 a week walking on the beach for twenty minutes and sittin in a Air conditioned motor coach aint workin anymore.
Byron
1, August 1, 2010 at 5:13 pm
TraderB:
“They are hoarding it or sending it overseas.”
they have been doing that since November 5th of 2008 and in a big way. They have divesting themselves of property in the US.
Hopefully this economic disaster will end and the adults will take control of the Fed and SEC and Congress and will follow sound economic principles. Something the last 4 presidents have been want to do. Although Bill Clinton did have his feet held to the fire by a republican congress which at that time had some fiscal sanity.
=============================================================
Ah yes, let’s all sing the praises of “Newt” Gingrich and crew … Asa Hutchinson (graduate of Bob Jones and really great family values guy), Gramm (of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (GLBA), also known as the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999 which led to the whopping financial crisis of 2007/2008), and other infamous republican “adults” so admired by Byron.
The economic disaster to which you refer started with your buds and almost destroyed this country.
Your boy down in Ark., Shelby and his cohort up in Tenn., Corker were quite willing to serve their foreign masters when it came to scrapping the american auto industry. Well, Byyy-ron … the American auto industry has made a full recovery adding 55,000 jobs (with more to come) and your “adult” boys are stuck with their Toyota plants (drive at your own risk). Several of which are now looking towards Mexico. Tell your adult buddies that’s what happens when they sell out the American dream.
Further, and probably much to republican dismay, the battery plants are going to be built up north and in the midwest and will add at least 65,000 new jobs. That’s what your republican “adults” were trying to stop when they wanted to scrap the American auto industry.
Thanks to the recovery of the American auto industry, glass, rubber, plastic, job shops, steel … yeah … all those components of a manufacturing society that your republican friends were trying to kill are enjoying a resurgence.
Maybe the lower middle class stands a chance … must make you sick to your stomach! Give TraderB a big kiss from me, Byyy-ron.
(sorry guys, I have been reading Byron’s stuff for months and kept my mouth shut but that “fiscal sanity of a republican congress/adults” crap …
No more oil to pick up off the beaches.
Good job team, except for the Coast Guard, they’ll get the credit in the end but come to find out a certified Fire Marshall was never dispatched to the seen right after the accident and questions about all the fire boats trying to quell the flames basically sunk the vessel by overloading it’s means of pumping the water back into the ocean from it’s bilges.
Bdaman:
Greenspan was/is a very bad economist/human being. There is no excuse for what that cocksucker did. And Paulson is right behind him with that bail out to his butt buddies on Wall St. And the sad part is that most of the Wall St. fat cats give heavily to the democratic party. So I guess Paulson’s school ties are stronger than his political ties.
He and Greenspan should both be in jail for what they did. And probably in a cell next to Bush (Cheney would be let out by Haliburton on compassionate grounds
)
Blouise:
I was actually talking about all of them. Bush and the republicans in office under him didn’t do so well either. In fact they gave us TARP so I am actually quite disturbed by that as well. Tom Delay and his crew were every bit as bad as the ones in congress now.
(Cheney would be let out by Haliburton on compassionate grounds
)
How is Mr. Cheney? has anyone heard?
Don’t forget Bernakie, not to be confused with bare naked.
No, rumor has it he’s hiding, thinks people are lookin for him or somethin.
Byron,
What Blouise said.
badtroll,
I won $250. As to the lady, a gentleman doesn’t kiss and tell.
Enjoy your HotPockets.
So whats up Byron, read any good books.
Now that was good Buddha, my hats tipped.
Aye, just ta judge, cause i’m a mean player too. How was or is your consistency. Out of all the games, did you run the table and if so how many times?
I may not be able to beat you on this blog but I know I’ll scatter your ass all over that fuckin table table. Then depended on how many shots of tequila and if i’m wrong about that I just might split your head open with the cue, just ta see if you bleed green too.
No visual needed.
That was two tables cause sometimes I play two games at a time.
Of course you probably already figured that one out.
Blouise:
I think you will find that only Ford (which didn’t take money) is doing well.
The lower middle class is helped by a growing economy not a stagnating one. In a dynamic economy people don’t typically stay in the lower middle class, they are able to move up. The economic policies of this administration and the last one have been devastating to wealth creation, which is the mechanism for job creation, in this country.
You cannot have a growing middle class in a stagnant economy.
But anyway the simple fact of the matter is that you see the jobs created by government spending, what you don’t see is the jobs not created by the government spending money that would have been used by private individuals to create jobs in other areas. So the people that produce batteries (as in your example) are taking jobs from people that might have produced hammers. Why should people producing hammers be put out of work by people producing batteries? And have to pay for the jobs of the battery makers through their taxes.
Who gets to decide what jobs are necessary? In my mind that is despotism.
Buddha:
Sorry to hear that. But oh well.
Sorry to hear what, I wanna know, what is it.
Are you guys talking threw e-mail and the blog at the same time?
Byron That is because the wealth that was created went to the top 1%. Taxation policies favor the wealthy. Also corporations are sitting on huge piles of cash. They don’t care about hiring.
Wow, TraitorB,
You seemed to have missed the earlier post, I named the Dart family as being one that has made it here and keeps it over there. This goes for a number of people that I am familiar with. I read an article in a family business publican that there are companies that have their primary business in the US have more than 4.5 trillion US Dollars in reserve.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01stockman.html David Stockman says republicans are bankrupting the country.
Smom:
“Also corporations are sitting on huge piles of cash. They don’t care about hiring.”
they are afraid of the unknown. Corporations are run by individuals who have the same fears as the rest of us. I understand that consumer spending is way down, I know we have cut way back.
Smom:
“David Stockman says republicans are bankrupting the country.”
If you get rid of the tax cuts it is going to kill this economy and will reduce revenues to the treasury because of less business activity.
What they should be doing is cutting taxes further. JFK did it and it worked.
Bdaman:
how are things in Florida? How are the beaches doing and how is the fishing?
Spending among the upper income groups is not down that much. The stock market is up 3000 points from the bottom. Tiffany’s for instance just recorded a huge profit. Whole Foods profits were way up. The airplanes are pretty full. The 90% with jobs are starting to spend again. The problem is the unemployment situation. Republicans don’t want the government to hire or even provide unemployment benefits and the corporations aren’t hiring. The rich are still getting richer.The CE0′s certainly don’t want to part with their 25 million plus salaries to hire a few workers. Salaries during the Bush years became the most inequitable they have ever been and that has not changed.
Byron,
Bull-twinkies … do another google
Lot’s of folk up here work for GM … out of the red … into the black … hiring freeze is lifted … Twinsburg to go from a couple 100 units a day to 1400 … all laid-off are back … all “96′s” relocated (that’s a plant closing relocating of workers agreement) funds all paid up … the REAL list goes on and on.
And …Overtime is up and the people working in the plants aren’t like your republican buds on Wall Street … when they get a pay check, they’ve actually worked for the money.
Unfortunately for you, I know a lot about the American Auto Industry so you can’t shine me on or get away with that false fact stuff you republicans love to spread around.
Go buy a Toyota, boyo, and hope the wheels don’t fall off. And say hello to Corker and Shelby … I trust they’re smart enough to give the north a wide berth when traveling. Nobody is buying them candy and flowers and nobody is going to forget what they tried to do to the American Auto Industry!
… you guys thrive on divisiveness … you’ve got it!
Smom:
I have figured out that Bush was a very bad president, but executive salaries were capped during the Clinton years and other methods were found for compensation.
Personally I like what W. Edwards Deming has to say about executive compensation.
badtroll,
You couldn’t beat me at pool or with a cue. Although your intimations of violence make me laugh in your face, if it helps your shattered ego, think what you like.
Byron,
Nice to see you still think the 1%’s shouldn’t have to carry their fair share of the load after the tax payers bailed them out of their Ponzi schemes on Wall St. Those “individuals” you’re so worried about were in part given the money so they’d use it to rebuild the economy, not sit on it like Croesus for their personal benefit and the benefit of their non-employee shareholders. Screw their worries.
You serving cake with rationalized greed or is it ala carte?
Brfyuon,
You cannot have a growing middle class in a stagnant economy.
Wrong oh republican wise one, A growing middle class ends the stagnate economy
But anyway the simple fact of the matter is that you see the jobs created by government spending, what you don’t see is the jobs not created by the government spending money that would have been used by private individuals to create jobs in other areas. So the people that produce batteries (as in your example) are taking jobs from people that might have produced hammers.
Wrong again … battery manufacturers need hammers
… the misspelling of your name was a typo … I’m into real divisiveness, not cheap shots
Blouise:
I own a Ford, actually 2 and a Jeep. I don’t like rice rockets.
I had read that Ford was doing well and that the other companies were having some problems. If what you are saying is correct, that is very good news.
Actually an economy needs all types of people doing all different things. Wall St. is necessary because they bring money from people who have it to people who need it. The people who need it are called entrepreneurs and they create jobs for people like me and you.
If this mechanism wasn’t in place there would not be very many jobs available because it would be hard to find money to start companies.
I guess you agree with me then that the oil drilling moratorium was a bad thing and hurt many people.
Off to dinner … lots of new restaurants opening around here … I wonder what that means ….
AY,
Doing Mexican this evening
Byron,
Deming is dead and he died before the era of the Clown Bush when CEO pay really rocketed to it’s current ridiculous disproportions. A PA clearly reveals that’s part of the problem with corporations right now. It’s draining operating capital into a top heavy executive. That Aesop Frog story just as easily applies to corporations you know. I wouldn’t hang your hat on the opinion of a man who died before the situation changed drastically to back you up considering the rest of the efficiency geared nature of his work. He’d likely prove you wrong vis a vis his view of current executive pay if he were around.
Blouise,
How can Battery Manufuckyouers afford Hammers at the price that the Government buys them for NASA at…Why sell them to a Manufacture at 10 dollars when you can sell the same ones to NASA for 319 and earn a better ROI with less workers. You must be kidding me.
Have a good dinner Blouise
Blouise,
Is your Significant Other going or does he not mind?
You said you are doing Mexican right?
I just love Mexican too….
Buddha:
I don’t agree with the Wall St. bail out period, I think they should have gone out of business or been taken over.
I was thinking of the many small businessmen and women who are actually afraid of the course the economy is taking. The ones that employ 5, 10, 20 up to a couple of hundred people and don’t want to hire because they don’t know what is coming.
The big corporations and Wall St. can worry about themselves. Small business people are the ones that create most of the jobs in this country and if they can have extra cash they can hire someone or buy a new piece of equipment which would allow another company to hire someone.
Well, Byron, those aren’t the people sitting on the huge reserves you’re worried about then.
Things are good, getting ready for what should be Tropical Storm Colin around Wednesday and a Cat. 1 or possibly 2 lurking in the Bahamas by weekend.
Thats when the forecast gets a little iffy. Hopefully it will get into the Gulf and become a huge washing machine to help clean up the mess, then on it’s way to Northern Louisianana. Break all that oil down some more so them microbes can eat.
Looks like they’ll starve themselves to death shortly.
Mexican here too, but homemade.
Beef enchiladas, guacamole and ranchero-style beans (pintos with chorizo, jalapeños and cilantro).
Speaking of which . . .
Byron,
The people who need it are called entrepreneurs and they create jobs for people like me and you.
==========================================================
Oh brother, I couldn’t let that condescending remark pass without responding.
Honey, I am an entrepreneur and my investors were more than happy to risks their funds because I’m that good. Their profit when I sold the business … 225% … not counting dividends through the years. Not a one of them claimed to be doing anything more than looking for a way to make money.
Save your preaching for the dumb bunnies who only know how to talk the game … I’ve played it, won, and am not at all impressed by your rhetoric!
Now … off to one of the 4 new restaurants that have opened within the last 3 months.
Buddha:
“He’d likely prove you wrong vis a vis his view of current executive pay if he were around.”
Considering I agree with Deming on executive compensation I am not at all sure what you mean. Can you please explain.
By the way, I also think that 25 million or 50 million is too much to pay an executive but then it is also too much to pay movie stars and professional athletes. But then if someone is stupid enough to pay them that is a free market. I don’t think the government should be telling anyone what they can make. It will lead to wage controls across all sectors of the economy.
Yea me too, I’m off to the kitchen, all the restaurants here suck.
The McDonalds is doing well and I’m pretty sure it’s at both locations.
Anonymously Yours
1, August 1, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Blouise,
Is your Significant Other going or does he not mind?
You said you are doing Mexican right?
I just love Mexican too….
=========================================================
AY, I love you!! He always tags along. We met when we were 19, engaged for 2 years and now married for 44 years. For the first few years I performed on stage and he learned how to handle jealousy. He tells everyone that his sole purpose in living is to provide me with whatever support I need for whatever it is I choose to do next. Now … how can one not love a man like that!?
Food!!
Blouise:
So what did you do?
Bdaman:
wont that churning action also oxygenate the water as well?
Blouise:
so you are a multi-millionaire? Good for you if you are. Based on your posts here, I will assume you gave it all away to charity or a good portion of it anyway. Again good for you to help other people.
http://www.openleft.com/diary/19663/reality-bites-gop-in-the-ass-will-anyone-even-notice
Byron,
Everything you’ve said to justify executive compensation (these individuals you’re so concerned with) flies in the face of two of Deming’s sins of Western management: running a company on visible figures alone and emphasis on short term profits.
TraderB 1, August 1, 2010 at 4:15 pm
If the Republicans do not take Congress back, we can expect 2 more years of recession (Depression?). The rich are on strike. They are not hiring, but are making money hand over fist with lean staffs. They are hoarding it or sending it overseas.
The uncertainty over health-care costs, taxes and compulsory unionization have them frightened of adding more people in spite of the orders pouring in. There is also fear that Obama will seize your company under some pretext. Better to slowly liquidate U.S. operations and invest overseas.
_____________________________
well that manner of catering to fear is a self-fulfilling prophecy…………..
Buddha:
First of all I don’t make the rules concerning people’s salaries nor do I want to. Secondly I don’t run those companies so I don’t have any say in what they do or how they do it.
Personally if I had a big company I wouldn’t take a huge salary, how much does one individual need? Secondly I would want my company to prosper over the long term so I would not go public and have to be beholden to share holders.
I just read today where a company is thinking about buying all it’s shares back so it can become private. I imagine one of the byproducts of the financial reform legislation.
Bottom line though, in a free society if people are stupid enough to pay someone 25 million for something that another could do just as well for 500k then so be it. One of the problems is that many of these executives are like politicians, they talk a good game.
If you want to have government place limits on peoples salaries I would advise against it but not for any love for millionaires. And if Deming wants government to limit executive salaries then he is a fool. I was under the impression that he thought the private sector should do that to promote an efficient and well run company.
something else to freak out about…
http://www.thefinancialexpress-bd.com/more.php?news_id=97834&date=2010-04-18
Woosty:
is the rice bad for you? The article did not say.
I don’t know the science behind this but aren’t all food crops and animals genetically modified by cross breeding and hybridization? It has been going on for centuries, what makes a gene splice so different than crossing cereal grains the old fashioned way?
I’m not the scientist here but 1 of the problems w/GMO’s is that it is not possible to prevent contamination of other non-GMO crops. When they first tested it on corn there were huge die-offs of monarch butterflys. People who were allergic to peanuts began to experience allergic reaction to other GMO foods..turns out the ‘gene’ spliced into the corn exponentially increased the allergen. Removing a species from the foodchain (like bees for example) has far reaching consequence and with GMO’s , there is no reversing the damage once it pollutes the seed pools. Plus, our bodies biologics are not adapted to the frankenfoods….
‘In what is being described as the first ever and most comprehensive study of the effects of genetically modified foods on mammalian health, researchers have linked organ damage with consumption of Monsanto’s GM maize.’
http://www.truth-out.org/article/three-approved-gmos-linked-organ-damage+
Woosty:
oh, that sounds bad. I did not know that.
Byron,
Then you’d be wrong.
Byron
1, August 1, 2010 at 7:40 pm
Blouise:
so you are a multi-millionaire? Good for you if you are. Based on your posts here, I will assume you gave it all away to charity or a good portion of it anyway. Again good for you to help other people.
==============================================================
Hey, wait just a minute … are you an IRS agent? … I’m not going to talk to you anymore!
Byron,
I want you to ask yourself this question:
Would a man who dedicated his life to the concept of continuous process improvement approve of a business process (current CEO compensations) that damages not only the business proper long term but the economy of the nation as well?
The only answer is no, he wouldn’t.
Does that make him a fool?
Also no. It makes him honest and in possession of forethought and compassion (as in the ability to see beyond the greed of the one to the needs of the many).
But your statement here: “Bottom line though, in a free society if people are stupid enough to pay someone 25 million for something that another could do just as well for 500k then so be it. One of the problems is that many of these executives are like politicians, they talk a good game.”
That is the talk either of a fool or a sociopath.
They talk a good game so they should get to steal without punishment?
Are you sure that’s what you wanted to say?
And forget pols. We’re talking business, so no false equivalence arguments. Pols are a different kind of sinner. Do you really think that because they “talk a good game” that businessmen should be allowed to do what they want without fear of legal repercussion?
Because I talk a good game and I listen an even better one and I would swear that’s what you just meant.
Blouise:
I would not work for the IRS if I were starving to death.
Buddha:
I think he might have looked to government for health care reform and possibly for tort limitations but I don’t think he generally wanted government involved in business.
I would be interested in any information to the contrary. It has been about 20 years since I took his course.
here is my big concern regarding current day Corporations, aside from the money, aside from the cover-ups and lies, why do they keep doing something when very real and very valid and very well researched concerns are voiced by scientists and other people who actually know what they are talking about?
Why are they incapable of putting on the brakes when THEY TOO will be spared some incredibly harmful consequence????
How come why??????
and then they act like 3 year olds caught w/hands in a cookie jar….it is BIZARRE!
Buddha:
I dont think government should regulate salaries which is all I said. If you think I meant more than that then you would be wrong. And I dont think any post that I have ever written could lead anyone to think that I believe officers of corporations are above the law.
Byron,
He would have likely endorse a single payer public trust insurance system (as it’s 1 – most efficient and 2 – removes those costs from business) as he thought health care insurance as it has been run is simply a drag on corporate resources best used elsewhere. He was also interested in tort reform but I think less to damages than he was to the way the contingency model brought out frivolous lawsuits. Those are two of the “sins” of Western management. The others are lack of constancy of purpose, emphasis on short term profits (already mentioned), performance without appraisal, turnover in upper management, and running a company on visible figures alone (already addressed – it seems contrary to his “manage what you can measure” mantra, but it’s really just acknowledging the reality that somethings are not properly measurable). But since his death, several in the PA field have added to his list of Western management sins to include an outdated patent and IP system and unjustifiable executive compensation as inefficiencies.
As to government? Government wouldn’t have to get involved if people weren’t threatening the very fabric of society simply by exercising greed that in the end adds nothing of value to a company and in fact damages it so as to minimize their efficacy going into the future.
Deming was an efficiency expert. Broken is broken. And if industry can’t and won’t police themselves?
That is the nature of the law. It brings law to the lawless.
If those CEO’s operating in a criminally negligent and venal manner now can’t run a company now let alone for a reasonable salary that doesn’t reduce the efficiency of the company and damage the economy in the process? That’s not talent flying. That’s shit floating. The problem isn’t good businessmen or even businessmen per se.
It’s criminal and sociopathic businessmen. People who will lie, cheat and steal to maximize their personal profits and those of the shareholders, damn the costs to workers or society.
And dealing with criminals and sociopaths is also the business of the law as it is a primary function of the government to protect the lawful from the criminal elements of society.
Deming knew this was the practical reality of things too – although minimal involvement is best for process improvement, government is necessary. For without rules, there is anarchy and anarchy is most definitively not an efficiency.
That today there is also a breakdown at the campaign finance level when criminals pay for other criminals to be elected and do their bidding is another ancillary issue.
Buddha:
A corporate executive makes people think he is effective through public relations just as politicians do to become elected. It is perception rather than reality which makes a good executive in some instances. Think Michael Eisner at Disney, his claim to fame? Re-releasing Snow White, they thought he was a genius.
Byron,
But what you just advocated was fraud without consequence.
“Because they talk a good game” is a rationale that would let grifters and small time con men loose just as well as smooth talking CEO’s. Just because they stole big they should get a pass because people are stupid?
Because that is what you were saying.
So Eisner is a genius because some people bought the PR lie that he was a genius?
Wrong answer. He was still an overpaid half-wit to those of us paying attention.
And I told you not to bring pols into this. It’s apples and oranges as far as crimes go.
Regardless, I need to continue this tomorrow, B.
I’ve had a very long, hot day and I hear some pillows calling my name ever so gently.
Buddha:
well that is not what I mean. I am trying to explain why boards of directors pay those high salaries, they think their man/woman is the only one who can lead the company. I am merely equating the method of selling ones self to the boards of directors/electorate.
Personally I thought he was as well which is why I used him as my example. But share holders/boards of directors buy that hype.
I think we have the real reason behind his rant:
http://www.salon.com/news/anthony_weiner_dny/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2010/07/30/weiner_don_t_get_excited
mespo:
The most dangerous job in America belongs to lumberjacks. I’m sure you owe more to them then you do firemen and cops who come begging for money when they suffer from dangers they were willing to risk because they will live high off the hog in retirement.
Yet, I don’t see you wringing your hands for the lumberjacks. They suffer and die more than cops. And yet they provide you with a world full of comforts that keep you alive and well.
A person can live all of their life and may never need a cop or fireman. Just about everyone needs a lumberjack.
So say a little prayer for the true heroes among us: the lumberjacks.
lottakatz:
I am not a small government advocate; I’m a limited government advocate.
Charity will have to do. And we know that it will work because leftists (democrats) are so darn rich.
Charity does not work only in direct relation to the unwillingness of democrats to unclench their greedy little hands.
I’m thinking of Bill Gates Why doesn’t he let his money go now to help others? Are people going to postpone their suffering? How about Warren Buffet? And George Soros? Teresa Kerry? Steven Spielberg. What are these people doing? Giving most to the needy or sitting on most of it?
Dems spent 1 billion electing one fool Harvard lawyer schmuck to the presidency. He could have taken government funding and evil democrats could have donated that billion to the poor.
Please, when democrats stop throwing their money away and start spending it on the poor and disadvantaged, THEN we can have a conversation about your desire to do “charity” by gun-point.
Otherwise known as stealing.
You ought to do all you can for those in need and learn to accept what you cannot change. Or else you will become a menace to the human race.