In Chicago, police and prosecutors are dealing with a shooting in an unexpected way. Margaret Matthews, 68, had long complained about a 12-year-old who has been “terrorizing” her. When the boy joined friends in throwing bricks through her windows, she shot him. Police, however, did not charge her — instead charging the boy.
Another boy, 13, is also charged as a juvenile misdemeanor aggravated assault to a senior citizen.
Neighbors told police that the boy has been leading a group of kids who have been terrorizing the whole block.
Other neighbors, however, said that the boy told them that he was just walking by when the woman shot him and insist that he is not a bad kid.
We have seen these type of controversies in “castle doctrine” or “make my day” jurisdictions. However, Chicago is not such a jurisdiction. Courts have generally required a commensurate level of force to be used in self defense actions. The age of the individual can factor into this determination. Yet, I have never seen a brick through a window treated as justification for the use of potentially lethal force.
Source: CBS
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-woman-shoots-kid-0930-20100929,0,2723660.story My sister who lives there was telling me about the woman yesterday and she was even cheering the woman on.
Kids can be rather scary….in a couple of states the age requirement for some crimes has been removed and the child can be treated as an adult….
I don’t disagree with the woman…it must have been frightening….
I don’t know how it works in Illinois, but in Britain the state of mind of the person invoking self defence is what matters. If she was in imminent fear of her life (and I can easily imagine she might have been) then that fear does not have to be reasonable.
I’m emphatically not a fan of guns or the use of lethal violence against trespass, but a brick through the window strikes me as an attack that can have no other reason than to instill a fear of imminent threat to life in the victim’s mind. A brick is certainly a potential lethal missile when thrown at a frail elderly woman. She claims that one of the bricks hit her in the chest, and presumably there would be medical evidence of that, though I don’t find that to be necessary to justify self defense in this instance.
If this young boy has been charged, presumably there is enough witness or other evidence to support a prosecution. Police do, of course, occasionally make egregious errors.
Incidentally, Prof. Turley, do you know why the dates and times on this site all appear to be preceded by the characters “1, “? The problem appears in the archives as well as on recent posts and comments.
I guess this is what “justice” is supposed to look like.
I agree about that this seems minor to respond with lethal force, but like the man from England said, it all depends on the woman’s state of mind. I hope there is remorse on both sides. It is indeed tragic if young boys are harassing the elderly with physical force. Everyone threw an egg or two at the grumpy guy on the corner, but not a brick.
Professor Turley,
I’ve read later articles about this indicating that the lady’s story is that the kids were actually throwing bricks AT her, and that she only shot at them when a brick actually hit her. If that’s true, then it certainly makes the case a tad more ambiguous than how you frame it.
“Courts have generally required a commensurate level of force to be used in self defense actions.”
Let’s see… 68 year old woman v. 12 year old boy. She probably has physical limitation and the boy only has a mental limitation. Both are throwing objects.
Remember, “They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That’s* the *Chicago* way!”
The kid is lucky he didn’t get sent to the morgue!
“The young man hit me in the chest with a brick,” she said. “After a year of harassment, that was the straw that broke the camel’s back.” (Chicago Tribune By Duaa Eldeib and William Lee
Tribune staff reporters)
She shot him in the arm … and she had called the police as several windows were already broken. The kids jumped her fence and were standing on the roof of a shed throwing bricks through her windows and also at her.
The kid is 12 years old … what are the odds he will be rehabilitated and become a productive member of society?
Thanks for pointing that out, Blouise.
This was clearly cumulative harassment which came to head in this brick throwing incident where, undoubtedly, this lady feared for her safety and life.
Good for Grandma.
“The kid is 12 years old … what are the odds he will be rehabilitated and become a productive member of society?”
What are the odds that society will even make the attempt to rehabilitate and make him a productive member of society?
You go, girl! In an ideal world where everyone respects the rights of others and their property the idea of using lethal force for a brick thrower does seem a bit over the top. But we live in an increasingly uncivil society where those tasked to serve and protect have no legal duty to do that. And she’d called the cops repeatedly. It’s not like this was the first time; this was the culmination of a long running problem that apparently the local authorities could not or would not solve.
We’re all encouraged to get involved and protest the stoning of a woman in Iran for a non-crime. When do we protest the bricking of a woman in the US because she’s 68 and lives in a neighborhood with juvenile delinquents? Let’s see how you feel when you’re 68 and get hit with a brick.
Tom
I have to agree with Andrew F. According to the news story, the kids were on her property and throwing bricks at her. She yelled at them and they didn’t leave. One brick hit her in the chest — what if it had hit her in the head? The police obviously weren’t coming, and the kids’ parents were no where in sight. I can see clearly how this woman was in fear for her life.
culheath
1, September 30, 2010 at 1:23 pm
“The kid is 12 years old … what are the odds he will be rehabilitated and become a productive member of society?”
What are the odds that society will even make the attempt to rehabilitate and make him a productive member of society?
==========================================================
good point
Blouise: As was yours.
Sounds like the kid got what he deserved imo. Hopefully he learned his lesson. Re-load your gun Granny just incase he didn’t learn what he needed to.
These young cowards and hooligans obviously thought there would be no consequences to them for their actions of terrorism to a senior citizen who could not physically apprehend them. Would they have done this to a 40 year man who could have run them down on foot to catch them.
Times are changing in that the U.S. economy will no longer be always expanding, giving us higher standard of living but going the other way. A senior citizen on a fixed income might not be able to afford to replace all the broken windows before winter. I would have trouble replacing one of my double plane windows, at the moment. If this property damage to her windows could only be repaired with temporary coverings that caused her to freeze next winter, they would be guilty of murder. Look at this that way and a brick through a window could be treated as justification for the use of potentially lethal force.
Mr.Turley has written about the loss of civility toward on another but with the banksters waging class warfare against the lower 98% of Americans and the conservatives rigging the game and buying the refs, the kid should consider himself lucky that he isn’t declared a domestic terrorist and shipped to Gitmo.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/9/29/906223/-NYT-Editorial:-The-Stealth-Takeover-Of-Americas-Judiciary
Good Girl!!
Had a similar incident a few nights ago – fortunately no breakages, just a fair bit of cleaning up.
Local teenagers thinking they were hard.
My wife is only 4’8″ and was terrified. I came out of the house with gob blazing. Basically told the bunch of silly little boys to go home to Mummy if they couldn’t come right over and slug it out with me.
Think yourselves lucky you live in a country where an old Lady can still protect herself.
Here in the UK, had I or my wife (or a frail old lady) so much as lifted a finger against one of these louts it would have been straight off to the cells (geniune fear for life or not) and a criminal record/large fine/possible jail time. If a gun were involved it would be 8 years just for the ownership.
And many on this forum want a ban on smacking naughty kids. Sheer lunacy! We have it in the UK and it has proven to be nothing more than a license for the badly behaved to do as they please without any fear.
Forgot to add.
Having made enquiries around the neighbourhood, there had been several such incidents, with one old couples flat being targetted for several weeks.
Three weeks after my amateur theatricals there have been no further incidents. Fingers crossed.
I stand on the woman’s side–she had every right to stop this violence against her. I knew some very large for their age bullies at 12 years.
Parents are afraid of their cildren; because they have been told that they can not use physical force in defence against attacks,they give the childen the concept that this is the way life is;you can attack/terorise/mob without hindrance. In real life , when coming outside the family, they will see that violence is met with violence in self-defence.ake the ownership/responsbility for children away from the state, and back to parents.
“We’re all encouraged to get involved and protest the stoning of a woman in Iran for a non-crime. When do we protest the bricking of a woman in the US because she’s 68 and lives in a neighborhood with juvenile delinquents? Let’s see how you feel when you’re 68 and get hit with a brick.”
Tom
————————————
hear hear!
how about the ball dropped by local authorities? Is that not to be addressed? There be many kids are way out of control these days, and yes, it will get worse if it goes unaddressed…
I agree with the woman, in this case. (sorry, Jonathan) What was she supposed to do, throw bricks back? In places like Chicago, reports to the police of getting terrorized are treated as ho-hum matters.
The kid’s families, the police and Chicago failed these kid’s and putting this woman in jail for this (logical) outcome after a year of abuse serves no purpose.
culheath
(Blouise’ question)
“The kid is 12 years old … what are the odds he will be rehabilitated and become a productive member of society?”
(Answer)
What are the odds that society will even make the attempt to rehabilitate and make him a productive member of society?”
_____
Our prisons don’t rehabilitate and our society seldom intervenes in such situations with positive outcomes short of a crisis, by that time it’s often too late.
For the state to foster “good” persons when the parents can’t is labor and cost intensive. That’s not an investment we make. We’re too busy shipping skids of hundred dollar bills off to the four corners of the earth for no good reason.
This woman needs a good lawyer because I’d bet a dollar to a dime the kids parents will sue her.
“For the state to foster “good” persons when the parents can’t is labor and cost intensive. That’s not an investment we make.”
Trying to deal with problems after the fact is always far more expensive than dealing with them up front – ask health care workers or BP.
“Trying to deal with problems after the fact is always far more expensive than dealing with them up front – ask health care workers or BP.”
No disagreement on that point.
You did a great interview on Anderson Cooper’s show Mr. Turley. You are very articulate and precise on your message. Thanks. As far as this kid in this story, he’s lucky he was only shot for his invasive actions. I certainly would have added a few more steps into preventing him from ever repeating that crime again.
AY,
you don’t disagree with the woman in shooting a kid for harassment?
Seems some would like to charge the kid as the adult here, and let this crazy armed granny go like she’s just a bad kid? You people crazy?
Around 68 is the time to realise that you don’t go about shooting kids when you can call a cop. Terrified? At 68?! You’re two legs in the grave already, what’s she have left to be scared about ffs.
The 12-yr old is only 12 years old… what on earth is the excuse of the demented old fart? The kid gets a final warning, the granny is executed, in my court.
Many kids twelve years of age are the same size as many adults, especially to seniors. If the granny feared for her life because of illegal actions perpetrated by the kid, then too bad he got shot. I have zero sympathy for the kid in this story. The granny did more than enough to assist the kid. I would have given the kid a more thorough punishment. He’s lucky to still be alive, imo.
I am amazed that no one has brought up race as a factor yet…..
Yes….I think that the child deserved what he got from this woman….but for her being a better shot the kid would not be here today….99% of us live in a Vacuum…Some areas of some citys cops will not respond or even go to without numbers….do I blame the cops hell no….
I wonder how many of you all remember the area called Cabrini–Green…..wonderful area….safe too….yep cops even loved going there….NOT
Come on if that was your grandparent….Your momma….tell me how would you feel….
Civilians are not trained to give equivalent, proportional response to an assault, like cops are. Some prosecutors and courts are ignoring that. Not in this case. Whether you agree with this prosecutor, that’s our world today.
BTW, was her true proportional response just to throw the brick back?
The cops had been called and weren’t going to come. What the hell else was she supposed to do, let them kill her?
The kid is lucky. Flesh wound. Hopefully he won’t do this again; however, I place the odds of that at zero.
My guess is this kid won’t be throwing bricks again. Sorry but the kid decided what his life was worth.
Clockwork Orange in the 21st Century.
Good thing Earnest T.Bass didn’t live to see this day.
What other force could she use?
The police apparently were doing nothing. They chose to wait until shots were fired, with the potential of “collateral” injury, and violent reprisal.
We do and we should have the right to protect our property, real and personal from being harmed by others.
The level of physical violence and type of damage, could be considered life threatening. Hurled bricks can kill and loss of security, broken windows, breach the protective wall of the home ad pose a real threat to the occupant(s).
Then of course there is the issue of how extensive the damage to her home inside and outside and how much repair will cost and who will pay.
mred
“Civilians are not trained to give equivalent, proportional response to an assault, like cops are.”
Like murdering unarmed non criminals and unarmed dogs. And shooting and beating up the people who call them for help.
You statement is of course correct.
But things have gotten so twisted these days that “proportional response” by cops has gotten way out of hand.
According to the report I read, the brick was being aimed at the women (who presumably would have little chance to get out of the way of the next brick, given her age). I suspect this fact was key in the police and state’s attorney’s decision to handle the case as they did.
Being terrorized for a period of time can be justified as self defense.