Hey! Who Stole My Democracy?…or What’s Going on in the State of Michigan?

Submitted by Elaine Magliaro, Guest Blogger

Warning: You are about to enter the Twilight Zone.

Imagine, if you will, that you live in a state where a governor wields extraordinary power over its residents. Imagine, if you will, that your governor has the legal authority to appoint an “Emergency Manager” to oversee the local government in the town where you reside. Imagine that the monetary compensation for the Emergency Manager of your community has no cap. Imagine that your Emergency Manager declares that there’s a financial emergency in your town and then takes over control of it. Imagine that the Emergency Manager can break contracts, seize and sell assets, eliminate services—and can also fire duly elected public officials who serve your community. Imagine, if you will, that the Emergency Manager empowered by your governor to run your town has the right to dissolve your school district and to disincorporate your town. AND imagine that you and your fellow residents have no say about what is going on! Just imagine how you might feel if you lived in a state where that kind of thing was going on. Well, the people who live in Michigan may not have to imagine much longer.

Who, you might ask, will be responsible for transforming the state of Michigan into a Rod Serlingesque otherworldly undemocratic Twilight Zone right here in the United States? Why, Governor Rick Snyder and his bold band of Republican state legislators–that’s who. In January, Governor Snyder called for “Emergency Manager” legislation—and the Republican state legislators were more than happy to comply with his request.

This all seems hard to believe, doesn’t it? I’m not making it up. Karen Bouffard of The Detroit News reported the following: Legislation that would allow emergency financial managers to throw out union contracts and overrule elected officials in financially distressed municipalities and school districts was approved Wednesday by the state Senate. Similar legislation passed in the House in February, and the two chambers are working on a final version to send to Gov. Rick Snyder.

In an article published in The Michigan Messenger, Eartha Jane Melzer wrote:

Under the law whole cities or school districts could be eliminated without any public participation or oversight, and amendments designed to provide minimal safeguards and public involvement were voted down.

An amendment to require Emergency Managers to hold monthly public meetings to let people know how they are governing was rejected by Senate Republicans, along with proposals to cap Emergency Manager compensation and require that those appointed to run school districts have some background in education.

Critics say that Republicans are manipulating concerns about budget problems in order to consolidate power by undermining unions.

According to E. D. Kain: Snyder’s law gives the state government the power not only to break up unions, but to dissolve entire local governments and place appointed “Emergency Managers” in their stead. But that’s not all – whole cities could be eliminated if Emergency Managers and the governor choose to do so. And Snyder can fire elected officials unilaterally, without any input from voters. It doesn’t get much more anti-Democratic than that.

Mark Gaffney, Michigan State President of the AFL-CIO said: This is a takeover by the right wing and it’s an assault on democracy like I’ve never seen.

Do you agree with Mark Gaffney? Do you think what’s going on in Michigan is an assault on democracy?

SOURCES

Rachel Maddow Exposes Michigan Republicans Secret War On Democracy (Politicus USA)

Michigan Governor Plays Fast and Loose with Democracy, Invokes Radical New Powers (Forbes)

Michigan Republicans Use Budget Crisis to make Outrageous Assault on Democracy (AFL-CIO)

Michigan Senate passes emergency manager bills (Daily Tribune)

Emergency managers bill sweeps toward final approval (The Michigan Messenger)

Conyers: Emergency Manager bill ‘raises serious constitutional concerns’ (The Michigan Messenger)

Mich. Senate passes bill to give broad powers to emergency managers
State appointees could terminate contracts for teachers, government workers (MSNBC/Associated Press)

Financial manager bill passes Michigan Senate (The Detroit News)

Michigan bill would impose “financial martial law” (CBS News)

897 Responses

  1. An assault on democracy? My god, yes.

    Check out the Michigan State Constitution:

    ARTICLE I
    DECLARATION OF RIGHT (pg 1)

    § 1 Political power.
    Sec. 1. All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for their equal benefit, security and protection

    Then go to:
    ARTICLE XII
    AMENDMENT AND REVISION (pg 50)

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xqkpp0qxc42jzy333im1gp55))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-chap1.pdf

    Are the republicans guilty of attempting a coup d’état on the citizens of these United States … state by state?


  2. Blouise,

    I found the Michigan story hard to believe. Yet, few in the MSM–except for Rachel Maddow–have been talking about what is going on in that state. I think everyone has their attention focused on what’s been happening in Wisconsin. We have to watch what’s going on in a number of other places. I believe there are about seventeen states where all kinds of political machinations are going on to try to strip public sector workers and even some citizens of their rights–and to bust unions.


  3. Elaine,

    The Republican Party in its desperation may indeed be presenting us with the unthinkable.

    “Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty; power is ever stealing from the many to the few.” (Wendell Phillips – 1811-1884 )


  4. As the saying goes, “Where is my America?” My God these rather than being times that we advance and proclaim the miracle that is life and liberty the sinister forces of thought control and economic control are using their sludge hammers against our own people. How about the republicans go to any old authoritarian state and take up residence there instead of trying to transform one of the greatest nations into a fascist country led by morons. The terrifying thing is the trend has been apparent for a long time.

    I am scared for all of us.


  5. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 3:13 am Buddha Is Laughing

    “Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.” – Edmund Burke. This is a bad law in that it is undemocratic and an unconstitutional direct deprivation of the Constitutional rights of citizens. With politicians making maneuvers like this, the terrorists who hate our civil liberties have turned our politicians into enemies of the Constitution and, ergo, the enemies of all freedom loving citizens – all in the name of illusory “emergencies”. “Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty.” – Plato. However, this kind of totalitarian machination is but the natural extension of years of GOP attacks on education, for an educated populace would rise and crush them for this offense against liberty. “Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.” – Thomas Jefferson.

    Education is key.

    Spread the word that the politicians of Michigan have declared war against the Constitution, human rights and civil liberties. America is under attack. The enemy is within.


  6. There are a number of states that have emergency legislation that cede power from the cities to the state but most are related to school districts, as is Missouri, my state.

    This type of new, broad-based law is amazing and unless the language has been changed from the proposed law, allows not only the firing of elected officials but bars the fired officials from running for office again for 10 years. I don’t think some of these provisions can stand a courts scrutiny. They strike at the heart of a citizens right to an elected government. This IS the new Feudalism.

    The timing is interesting because Flint is on the verge of bankruptcy and may not even be able to get loans to carry on. Flint would be the perfect testing ground for the Republican proposal for troubled cities (as yet untried) that has a troubled city becoming a tax-free zone for business. I have heard folks on TV talk about that type of economic stimulus a couple of times in the last few weeks but didn’t pay any attention to it. Should have, it seems like it might be relevant now.

    http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2010/04/city_of_flint_aims_to_avoid_an.html


  7. “Pamela Ehret-I am scared for all of us.”

    And it is being down right in front of our faces and they have no shame.


  8. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 8:30 am Anonymously Yours

    What is really going on is the state is creating the emergency….Take for instance that the city has an established budget of so many dollars….its based upon revenue from all sorts of means…taxes…real and personal…. use, etc….

    The state funds part of this from the general budget….the cities rely upon this money….

    Now factor in that the state has been under republican control assault for many years….Tax revenues are down….state uses this to cut payments to the cities….federal funds are cut as well….

    All of a sudden….the tax base is 40 % of what it was 4 years ago…. Local revenue is down by 40 per cent….the state uses this to reduce it contribution by 40 per cent… all of a sudden income for the cities are cut by 50 per cent….

    Take the same scenario for schools…..what do they have in common…Unions….and benefit dollars…..you see the picture….


  9. Are there really no sane Republicans left in America? It seems the entire party is stark raving mad and 27% of the population is actively demanding the US become a third world oligarchy and 25% don’t care how bad it gets as long as their taxes don’t go up a dime.

    When (IF) those people finally wake up one day they will find we are all peons on the plantations of the masters of the universe.


  10. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 8:43 am Swarthmore mom

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/03/11-2 Democrats are now not viewed as the “lesser of two evils” by progressives. The republican governors may be the best thing that could happen to rally the base. There is a stark difference between the former governor,Jennifer Granholm, and this guy.


  11. Looks like “Robocop” is probably the governor’s favorite movie, although he seems to think it was a documentary.


  12. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 8:50 am Swarthmore mom

    frank, It has been estimated that 35 to 40 percents of union members voted republican and many people stayed home. I don’t think the union members will be voting republican in 2012. Hopefully, turnout among other groups in the democratic base will be up.


  13. Swarthmore mom”

    “I don’t think the union members will be voting republican in 2012. Hopefully, turnout among other groups in the democratic base will be up.”

    Hows that saying go about being fooled once,and the consequences about being fooled twice.


  14. What about when local government officials are drug dealers or involved in other criminal activities?

    I sued Kevin Bennett, Former president of Steamboat Springs Colorado city council, my former neighbor. When I lived across the street I heard he was dealing and there were people going to his shed for short visits but when I wrote to the police they refused to talk to me about it. Then in 2009 he admitted that he had previously pled guilty and been imprisoned for conspiracy to sell hashish, a THC product made from marijuana leaves. The verified attorney bills show the city attorney discussing Bennett’s NCIC records with city officials in 2004 but there was no public disclosure until 2009.

    Just last week I heard from the Routt County Assessor Gary Peterson that he refuses to find out why the property tax rolls say that Bennett has an attached garage but the building permit shows it as detached, why the tax rolls say that Bennett built a guest house in 1950 but the building permits and other records show it was built in 2000, why the property tax rolls say he built less than 1000 square feet in 2000 but the building permits show it as over 2000, and why the property tax rolls show that he has a 451 square foot garage but that is large enough to park a panel truck plus a car. See property number 222800001. One possible explanation is that he is using the extra undocumented space to store illegal aliens (it has heating and plumbing), illegal drugs, guns, or bombs.

    It seems to me like the entire local government (Steamboat Springs /Routt County) is a criminal conspiracy. There are also missing developer taxes after the city refused to audit the program and a man died in a fire in an apartment that was legally a one car garage for the last 10 years while it was rented, sold and inspected and there was no investigation of how that could happen.


  15. Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin.

    We are witnressing the teabaggers’ image of America: Protect the billionaires (tax breaks, national debt, supporting off-shore out-sourcing & relocation, globalization and Citizens United) while destroying the middle class (no real increase in wages over 30 years, benefits’ losses, etc).

    I once heard that the difference between the middle class and the working class is that the middle class doesn’t live from pay check to pay check. The middle class (the American dreaam?) has sufficient income to be current with bills, stash a little away for an occassional vacation, maybe be able to pay for one’s kids to college or for a wedding and hopefully a little nest egg for retirement. I see the Scott Walkers, Mitch Daniels and the others as deliberately and methodically moving millions of people FROM the middle class TO the working class. And I’m very very angry about it.


  16. I guess the question here is, “Is it LEGAL?”

    It seems illegal to me, but if this is Constitutional (both Federal and State) it will be interesting to see what happens after the Republicans go to this extreme.

    It remains to be seen, but I think Republicans will lose big in Wisconsin, to union-supporting liberals, and all the rules they stripped from union workers will be passed again in double force. At least I hope that happens.

    The same thing could happen to them in Michigan. I think we are swinging between further extremes, here, and something is going to break.

    It probably seems unlikely to you guys in the midst of this appalling crap, but I still believe it is the Republicans that will eventually break. I believe this because polls show there is a truly fundamental disconnect in the rhetoric of their base constituents; the tea party and fiscal conservatives: They want cost cutting, but they don’t want to give up any significant services, and they don’t want higher taxes. I saw a poll, for example, over half of self-identified tea party activists say they do not want Social Security changed, over half (which may be a different half) say don’t touch Medicare, over half say don’t cut military spending.

    As Rand Paul noted recently on TV (can’t remember the show) everybody wants to cut spending but it is impossible to balance the budget without raising taxes or going after the military or entitlements.

    In short they are demanding the literally impossible from their elected officials: Balance the budget without raising taxes or cutting any kind of spending we like. It would be a feat on par with feeding the multitude with a few loaves and fishes.

    The officials, in order to appease their wealthy patrons, are going to cut services. In Wisconsin, pass a $167M tax cut and use it as an excuse to cut $123M in services (and try to bust unions). Well, that means the services are going to be missed, and re-demanded, both by the fools that didn’t realize those services were benefitting them and had to be paid for, and by the liberals that didn’t realize that failing to vote was endangering those services.

    In the next election, those realizations will cause us to rise up and them to abstain. At least that is my hope and belief. It seems to be happening in Wisconsin; polls of Independents have swung overwhelmingly against Walker and Republicans, they are using their recall power, and it looks like they will probably succeed in recalling a third of the Republicans. I think, even BEFORE 2012 (due to recall efforts) you will have about 90% of all union workers in Wisconsin campaining for Anti-Walker, Anti-Republican, Pro-Union candidates, and Wisconsin will turn BLUE. They have over-played their hand.


  17. Blouise was right to point to the Michigan Constitution.

    However the issue has nothing to do with the rights of individuals and everything to do with the issue of power.

    Issue: Does the Michigan State Constitution SPECIFICALLY grant the Michigan state legislature the power to promulgate this type of ‘emergency’ law?

    § 39 Continuity of government in emergencies.

    Sec. 39. “In order to insure continuity of state and local governmental operations in periods of emergency only, resulting from disasters occurring in this state caused by enemy attack on the United States, the legislature may provide by law for prompt and temporary succession to the powers and duties of public offices, of whatever nature and whether filled by election or appointment, the incumbents of which may become unavailable for carrying on the powers and duties of such offices; and enact other laws necessary and proper for insuring the continuity of governmental operations. Notwithstanding the power conferred by this section, elections shall always be called as soon as possible to fill any vacancies in elective offices temporarily occupied by operation of any legislation enacted pursuant to the provisions of this section.”

    Since a financial crisis is not an ‘enemy attack,’ my first argument would be “no, the MS constitution does not empower the legislature to promulgate the law proposed.”

    Accordingly, if the legislature and the governor want this law badly enough, then they’ll have to seek a state constitutional amendment to do so.

    That’s my 2 cents.


  18. Forgot to subscribe to email…


  19. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 11:00 am Anonymously Yours

    What a lot of folks do not realize that the State of Michigan has been Republican controlled in some form or fashion this last 25 years…..It is all about power….Snyder and his dimwits will do what ever they can to appease the powers that be….at least the maximum time that anyone can be in office is 10 years total….or 6 years if a state rep…..8 unless fill a partial term for all other office holders….Terms limits have screwed up the continuity of government….maybe thats the next thing that they will go after is term limits….

    The GOP was so short sided when they wanted them…they screwed there own bases….and also they have had a lot of new comers….it was ushered in under a career politician that spent more than 30 years between the House, Senate and Governors Office and assailed every one that had any longevity….


  20. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 11:20 am Woosty's still a Cat

    The coup was initiated by the Supreme court in Florida when they decided the election against the will of the people. It is an old story that we in the USA must have thought we were immune to….

    9/11 sealed the deal, it has been a horror show ever since…


  21. Elaine,
    Thanks for pulling away the curtain on this story. It is one more example of how extreme and radical the Right has become. They are so hungry for the power to assist the corporations and the wealthy, nothing will get in their way.
    Bob,Esq.
    I enjoyed your discussion on the constitutionality of this power grab. The Right has made a big gamble that they could succeed with these power grabs and that noone would squeal. Well it is Deliverance time for these corporatists.


  22. “Accordingly, if the legislature and the governor want this law badly enough, then they’ll have to seek a state constitutional amendment to do so.” (Bob,Esq)

    Exactly, which is why I noted the Amendment section.

    It has been suggested by some commentators in the media that the Republican Party is attempting another Civil War. I initially dismissed that thought as ridiculous and irresponsible but now, when I recall the rhetoric of Michele Bachmann with her “armed and dangerous” Minnesotans and I look at the fiat accomplished by a mere 19 people in Wisconsin (Governor and 18 legislators)and I watch the events as they unfold in Michigan and other states controlled by Republicans … I wonder. Perhaps the irresponsible thing to do is to ignore such warnings.

    This has moved beyond politics. I believe Buddha is correct when he refers to the “enemy within”.

    It is quite possible that when all is said and done there will be a few former governors and legislators sitting in Leavenworth awaiting trials for treason.

    Now, I have to go to the store. I’d better make it quick before Kasich decides that, for my own good and the fiscal health of Ohio, I may only shop at the state-approved grocery store.


  23. “Well it is Deliverance time for these corporatists.” (rafflaw)

    Was that a pig joke? Are you attempting to replace my camels with oink jokes?


  24. Blouise, Buddha indicated Pelosi and other union backed democrats were the the enemy last fall. I did not and can not agree with that. We are going to have to have many feet on the ground to get the union sample ballot out. Obama will be at the top of the slate. I have done this before in prior elections in Minnesota. We will have to unite with the democrats to push back the tide or be run over by the republicans and their billionaire backers.


  25. Blouise, We will either win in a wave with Obama or lose in a wave if he fails to turn out the vote.


  26. Blouise,
    If it smells like a pig, it is a pig! :)


  27. Minnesota was saved from the fate of these other midwestern states. The republicans captured the senate and house but Mark Dayton won the governor’s race by a fraction of a percent.


  28. rafflaw,

    Ah, but have you ever been close to a camel? The fragrance is remarkable!


  29. SwM,

    Yes, we share a respect and admiration for Pelosi that is unshakable.

    However, it is only fair to acknowledge that Buddha is consistent in his dislike for politicians in general, including Pelosi. We can take some comfort from the fact that thus far the only politician for whom he has indicated any kind of approval is Kucinich.

    Turning out the vote is key … the republicans are helping us in more ways than I ever thought possible.


  30. Blouise, That is true. It is not like he has been an advocate for the tea party as another has been. But, someone wins and someone loses as in the case of Pelosi losing her job to Boehner. What I am trying to say is one just can’t be anti and claim that is a solution.


  31. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 12:55 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Smom,

    What I indicated was that Pelosi was aiding and abetting treason after the fact. Her backers are beside the point when she acted against their (and the general public’s) best interests. If people infer that this action makes her the enemy, so be it.

    Both parties are complicit in the internal attack on the Constitution because both parties stand to benefit from a corporatist coup d’état.


  32. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 1:03 pm Swarthmore mom

    Buddha. One party will benefit from the smashing of the unions and one will not.


  33. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 1:08 pm Swarthmore mom

    One party will profit from the destruction of Planned Parenthood and one will not.


  34. SwM,

    “What I am trying to say is one just can’t be anti and claim that is a solution.”

    Interestingly enough, that is the question upon which I just spent a great deal of thought. I believe it was framed on this blog as the “lesser of two evils”.

    I decided that, although I agree with the position that both parties are working for the corporations (as Buddha and many others contend), being simply anti was not getting us anywhere because there was no constructive movement towards a third party. I have never had much in common with the platforms put forward by the Republican Party since they all hoped on board Reagan’s “trickle-down”. I have always had much in common with the Democratic Party’s platforms regarding civil rights … the “Big Tent” theory. And up until a couple years ago I was a steady contributor.

    One could say that the republicans radicalized me in that their actions pushed me from passiveness to activism.


  35. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 2:07 pm Swarthmore mom

    Blouise, I am ready to work and contribute to the democrats again. As that article I posted from “Common Dreams” says, the Wisconsin governor has shown there are “stark” differences between the parties. Although I will agree that too many democrats are corporatist, one has too raise money somewhere. The two two main contributors to the democrats are the SEIU and the AFL-CIO not the Koch brothers and the Texas Swift Boat brothers.


  36. Wasn’t it Republicans during Katrina (?) who were refusing to do something or other because that would be government ‘interfering with contracts’?

    They blathered on about it for a few days like it was a simple profession of piety until the news got over it.


  37. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 2:19 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Do you know the difference between a rabid dog that bites you once and a rabid dog that bites you ten times?

    Nine bites but you still get rabies.

    Both parties have rabies – a viral attack on the Constitution, the rule of law and civil liberties – and both parties are biting the American citizens. That one is more open about their fascist infection than the other is rapidly becoming more irrelevant each day. In the post Citizens United world, what separates the parties will become even more of a distinction without a difference.


  38. Buddha,

    I agree with you…to a point. I think one pack of party politicians has a lot more rabid members than the other. I believe that working/middle class people have a more likely chance of getting rabies from Republicans than from Democrats.


  39. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 2:34 pm Swarthmore mom

    Buddha, If we were dealing with Rockefeller style republican, I would agree with you, but Bachmann, Palin, Scott Walker and the tea party are a whole different breed. As a woman, I have much more to fear from them than a corporate democrat.


  40. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 2:36 pm Stamford Liberal

    Positively mind-boggling. With all that is going on across the Mid-West, the GOP agenda cannot be any clearer. Turning a blind eye to the destruction of democracy surely means the destruction of us all.

    The memory of oppressed people is one thing that cannot be taken away, and for such people, with such memories, revolt is always an inch below the surface. – Howard Zinn


  41. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 2:39 pm Swarthmore mom

    I mean republicans.


  42. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 2:51 pm Swarthmore mom

    Buddha, We can just agree to disagree. Didn’t agree with your position on the 2010 elections and doubt I will for the 2012 one either.


  43. “What I am trying to say is one just can’t be anti and claim that is a solution.”

    “I decided that, although I agree with the position that both parties are working for the corporations (as Buddha and many others contend), being simply anti was not getting us anywhere because there was no constructive movement towards a third party.”

    SWM and Blouise,

    I must be channeling goth of you. What I would add, though I’ve expressed it many times before, simply being against evil without a backup plan loses sight of the misery it causes. Buddha’s rabid dog analogy, while true, does not alter the fact that the harm Republican’s will cause with full power is inestimable. I do agree that we each have to follow what our conscience dictates. Mine is that to the extent possible I want to stave off total disaster while giving ourselves the breathing room to counter the evil. I hate to have characterize the actions we have seen lately via Republican Tea Baggers (Tea Party gives them too much credit and the euphemistic meaning of of Tea Bagger is far more apt) as evil, but ethically and moralistically it is perfectly descriptive of their intent. Life and humanity are so fragile, that those who care little for others pain, are indeed evil. The patina of political philosophy does not cover the vileness of selfish behavior.


  44. Is the State of Michigan required to have a balanced budget?

    Answer:
    Yes. Article V, Section 18 of the Michigan Constitution of 1963 states, “Proposed expenditures from any fund shall not exceed the estimated revenue thereof.”

    Text of Section 18:
    Budget; General and Deficiency Appropriation Bills

    The governor shall submit to the legislature at a time fixed by law, a budget for the ensuing fiscal period setting forth in detail, for all operating funds, the proposed expenditures and estimated revenue of the state. Proposed expenditures from any fund shall not exceed the estimated revenue thereof. On the same date, the governor shall submit to the legislature general appropriation bills to embody the proposed expenditures and any necessary bill or bills to provide new or additional revenues to meet proposed expenditures. The amount of any surplus created or deficit incurred in any fund during the last preceding fiscal period shall be entered as an item in the budget and in one of the appropriation bills. The governor may submit amendments to appropriation bills to be offered in either house during consideration of the bill by that house, and shall submit bills to meet deficiencies in current appropriations.

    http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Article_V,_Michigan_Constitution#Section_18

    While I don’t think he should be able to remove a popularly elected public official, it seems he does have to balance the budget. If he needs to make new contracts, well then so be it. And if the local managers and elected officials are incapable of balancing a budget, then outside help is needed. The governor is providing it.

    He also seems to be in the process of privatizing a good many programs and services.

    Contracts are canceled in the private sector all the time. What are Michigan’s contractual obligations? What is the wording? When I sign a contract with someone, I usually have a clause that excuses me from paying the entire contract if I or the other party decide to part ways for any reason. I pay the amount of work actually provided up to the time of severance.

    The assembly of Michigan was elected by the people, they are ostensibly doing the people’s bidding.

    Maybe if Jennifer Granholm hadn’t made such a hash of the state, Snyder wouldn’t need to do what he is doing.

    Both parties take note there are no free lunches.


  45. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 5:54 pm Anonymously Yours

    Whoa….Maury Boy….Whoa……

    Excuse me but Jennifer inherited the mess from a career politician that sold all of the states revenue making assets to his political donors….the Michigan Liquor Commission to wit was sold for 26 million dollars…come on….Engler put the state in a worse shape than Bush did the US….oh yeah….Blaming Granholm is like saying Oswald acted alone….think about it….

    You are a party hack….


  46. Maury,
    Contracts in the private sector are not “cancelled all the time”. Unless their is language in the contract that allows an out for either side, it is binding on both parties.


  47. Anony:

    is this what he sold?

    http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-10570—,00.html

    Seems like they are still selling liquor to me and owned by the state. Maybe I am missing something.


  48. rafflaw:

    every contract I make, I have a clause that protects me if I am not able to finish the contract for lack of funds. My customers can cancel on me at any stage of completion so I have to do this to protect myself from having to pay people that I contract with to help me.

    Many government contracts say they can cancel at any time during the work and that any work completed to that time will be paid for.

    So what do the contracts say in Michigan? I would imagine the governor cant just say he isn’t going to pay for work done up to this point. If he is, then he is stealing.


  49. Maury,
    That statement is crap because both sides have to agree on the contract terms. Not just you. If you are a contractor and you are including language that if you run out of funds you can walk away is something a buyer should never agree to. If you can’t honor your quote or estimate, then I would not want to do business with you and I would advise my client accordingly. Terms of cancellation due to improper performance are not uncommon, but they are used to allow an injured party to limit their damages. Maury, the governor is Michigan is stealing if he plans on pulling the plug on entire cities and towns and basically negating the will of the voters.


  50. @Maury: I agree with rafflaw; I contracted for 25 years with all sizes of businesses. I don’t know what kind of suckers you get to sign, but anything reviewed by a competent lawyer (as mine were on both sides) isn’t going to have any get-out-of-jail-free cards in it for either party.

    The contract is a basic fair trade, I work for money, they pay me for the work, and the rate we agreed upon in the contract is the rate they will pay, period.


  51. rafflaw:

    I am sorry, I meant that the people who pay me run out of funds sometimes prior to completion or they stop the project at a certain point for whatever reason. Usually funding is not forthcoming or their budget changes.

    I am the one who would be left holding the bag with my subcontractors. Who I might add agree to the terms of the contract.

    If the governor has a clause in the state contracts which allow for termination without cause, he can do whatever he wants as long as he honors the terms of the contract to that point. It doesn’t have to be solely for improper performance.

    If he does not remove elected officials, he is not negating the will of the voters. If these elected officials are unable to run a town within budget, they do need some help. And anyway the voters voted for him for governor, so who is to say whose will he is violating.

    If I understand properly, he is negating the will of the voters but the same voters voted for him to clean things up. He is cleaning things up and so now he is negating the will of the voters because he isn’t cleaning it up how you want him to? I thought this was a democracy? 51% we win 49% you lose, progressives mention that all the time. So I guess it is only a democracy when you have 51% and we have 49%.

    You show me the contracts and where in the Michigan State Constitution it says he cant do this and I will agree with you. If he needs to do it another way to make it legal, then he needs to follow the law. So far the only people other than me who have mentioned their Constitution is Bob Esq and Blouise.


  52. Maury,

    How will the firing of an elected town or city official help to balance the Michigan state budget? You’re conflating two different issues.


  53. Tony C:

    if you do government work they can terminate without cause. In fact you can do that in the private sector as well. There is nothing wrong with a contract that says I want to spend $25,000 but I may have to give notice of termination prior to completion. If that is the case, then payment will be made for work completed up to the point of termination.

    If the union contracts don’t have that clause then the governor is stuck with them until the next contract signing. I doubt there is any constitutional requirement for him to renegotiate union contracts.


  54. Well said Elaine. The balanced budget is a red herring.
    Maury,
    If your customers are unable to pay, how are you able to stiff tour subs? Absent filing bankruptcy, your subs have a separate contract with you and not the customer.


  55. Elaine:

    I didn’t say the governor could fire an elected official. Nor do I believe he should be able to. It seems to me there is a confluence of state and local laws. Which one trumps the other?

    Their Constitution says the budget needs to be balanced.


  56. rafflaw:

    My clients/customers are not stiffing me. We agree on these terms up front. Let us say client X wants me to develop a software program to track product movement. They give me a contract worth $100,000 to do this. Lets say I have spent 25% of the money and they terminate my contract because they decided they don’t need it any longer, they pay me $25,000 dollars plus whatever expenses I may have incurred up to the point of termination. The fees would also include any money I may have spent with subcontractors. If I finish the project and they decide they don’t want it then they owe the entire $100k.

    The problem arises when I have spent 50% of the money and I am only 25% finished with the contract. But that isn’t usually a problem because we work mostly on time and material.


  57. Maury,

    You brought up the fact that the state budget has to be balanced. The new Emergency Manager bill says an EM can fire elected officials of cities and towns. I thought you were conflating the balancing of the state budget with the balancing of city/town budgets. That’s why I asked you how firing those officials would help balance the state budget.


  58. This Troll started posting last week with no capital letters and improperly punctuated contractions only to evolve into “It seems to me there is a confluence of state and local laws.”. In other words, more than one personality at the keyboard.

    That’s the kind of dishonesty the republicans find wholesome and practice in both their politics and their personal lives.

    Now, I write all this not to engage the Troll but to inform my fellow posters as to why I will not be engaging the Troll.

    However, have at him or her all you want for it is always good to hold up to the light a person who is actively working to destroy democracy and accepting payment for doing so.


  59. Elaine:

    how much state money goes to the cities and towns? What percentage of the a cities budget is paid for with state money and what comes from local taxes?

    If state money is involved, then there would be reason for the governor to do this. Although it seems to me it would be better to just withhold state funds from mismanaged towns and to offer incentives to get their financial houses in order.

    But maybe they have refused to do so. We don’t know half of what is going on behind the scenes nor why the governor took this approach. Granted it does seem heavy handed, but then we don’t know all there is to know.


  60. Maury,

    “If state money is involved, then there would be reason for the governor to do this.”

    To do what? Fire elected officials?


  61. Sorry Blouise, there is only one of us at this keyboard.

    I was posting in haste and Mike Spindell made a couple of comments that caused me to decide to clean up my posts a bit.


  62. Elaine:

    no, to help them straighten out their budget problems.


  63. I posted this on another thread but thought everybody should see just what kind of trouble republicans are in and the future they are facing … even farmers showed up on their tractor. I mention this again because farmers are some of the most conservative of conservatives and despise Unions. This is Wisconsin today:


  64. Blouise:

    we don’t have a democracy, we have a republic. Our republic was created by our founders to prevent democracy from taking over and quashing the individual.

    If 51% of the people want to take your life is that right? It is democracy. If you think it is right, you are the threat to liberty not me.

    And please don’t tell me the Constitution would prevent such an occurrence, it wouldn’t because those same 51% would vote it out of existence and it would be perfectly legal to hang you in the public square.


  65. The United States is a democratic republic/representative democracy.


  66. “Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty; power is ever stealing from the many to the few.” (Wendell Phillips – 1811-1884 )

    “I see the Scott Walkers, Mitch Daniels and the others as deliberately and methodically moving millions of people FROM the middle class TO the working class. And I’m very very angry about it.” (rcampbell) … you are right to be angry


  67. Elaine,

    Like I said … dishonest … I should probably add, and brainwashed

    By the way … you are doing a heroic job … I believe the souls of Ben Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison are giving each other high-fives and yelling, “Go Elaine!”


  68. on 1, March 12, 2011 at 9:41 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    “We must close Union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison”-Adolph Hitler May 2 1933

    “We must reduce workers salaries & take away their right to strike” Adolf Hitler 1933


  69. I agree with Bob, Esq. It appears that the Michigan statute is unconstitutional on its face to the extent that it permits the governor to declare a state of emergency based solely upon his discretion. It may be unconstitutional for other reasons as well, not the least of which is that it allows for a complete elimination of representative government at the whim of one individual.

    What is happening here is fairly transparent. The governor intends to pass a budget which will create fiscal crises throughout the state. In anticipation of potential chaos, the legislature is granting the governor dictatorial powers. It essentially gives the governor authority to suspend the constitution.

    To call this scheme radical is an understatement. But I suppose if Republicans intend to convert this country to a third-world nation, it make sense to incorporate third-world laws.

    I predict that a court action will be filed before the governor’s signature is dry. I also predict the law will be tossed out by the courts.


  70. Mike A.,
    It is a con game with amazing consequences.


  71. “I predict that a court action will be filed before the governor’s signature is dry. I also predict the law will be tossed out by the courts.” (Mike Appleton) … from your keyboard to the Court’s ears


  72. rafflaw,

    How’s your Marine doing? I’ve been thinking about him.


  73. Blouise,
    Thanks for asking about my son. We have not heard from him in awhile, but we are hoping to hear from him soon. The long waits between emails are tough.


  74. rafflaw,

    My brother was an intelligence officer in Nam … I would go months without a letter … it was excruciating. Please know my thoughts are with you.


  75. Woosty is still a cat:

    Can you please site where Hitler said those things, I could not find a definitive source but I did find this by William Shier from Rise and Fall of the Third Reich:

    “Soon after the NSDAP came to power in 1933, all trade unions and worker organizations were declared illegal and the DAF was setup in their place as the sole labour organization of the German Reich. The concept of the DAF was to ensure the political stability and smooth operations of all German industry and commerce. It was through the use of mass organization, much like all other NSDAP-era organizations, that labour was to be formed into a single militarized group where “…a certain amount of well supervised misery, combined with daily work begun with drums beating and ended with drums beating…” would be used to solidify the labour front of the German Nation.

    Membership in the DAF was voluntary, but any person who was a worker in any area of German industry or commerce more-or-less was a member by default. Membership dues were given in the range of 15 Pfenning to 3 RM, depending on the catagory a member fell into in the large scale of 20 membership groups. A substantial amount of money was raised through dues, in 1934, the total intake was 300,000,000 RM.

    The DAF was composed of two main areas, the Nationalsozialistische Betriebsorganization, or National Socialist Factory Organization (NSBO) and the Nationalsozialistische Handels und Gewerbeorganization, or Natational Socialist Trade and Industry Organization (NSHABO).

    Another major part of the DAF was the KdF, or Kraft durch Freude – Strength through Joy. This organization, as a subset of the DAF, was tasked with providing activities such as trips, cruises, concerts, and cultural activities for the German workers. These events were specifically directed towards the working class and it was through the KdF that the NSDAP hoped to bring to the “common man” the pleasures once reserved only for the rich. By opening the door for the working class to easily and affordably take part in activities once reserved only for the rich, it was hoped that the labor force could be lulled into being more flexible and productive. One of the most famous aspects of this were the numerous trips and cruises provided by the huge fleet of ocean-going liners controled by the DAF/KdF, such ships as the Wilhelm Gustloff, Robert Ley, and many others. The Volkswagon was also a partial product of the DAF/KdF organization as well.”

    “The business men, who had been so enthusiastic over the smashing of the troublesome labor unions, now found that left-wing Nazis, who really believed in the party’s socialism, were trying to take over the employers’ associations, destroy the big department stores [shades of Wal-Mart], and nationalize industry. Thousands of ragged Nazi Party officials descended on the business houses of those who had not supported Hitler, threatening to seize them in some cases, and in others demanding well-paying jobs in management. Dr. Gottfried Feder, the economic crank, now insisted that the [Nazi] party program be carried out — nationalization of big business, profit sharing, and abolition of unearned income and “interest slavery”. As if this were not enough to frighten the businessmen, Walther Darre, who had just been named Minister of Agriculture, threw the bankers into jitters by promising a big reduction in the capital debts of the farmers [shades of mortgage write-downs] and a cut in the interest rate on what remained to 2% [ditto].
    — The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany, William A. Shirer, Simon & Shuster (New York, 1960), Volume I, pp. 203-204.”

    “Thus, within a fortnight of receiving full powers from the Reichtag, Hitler had … abolished the separate powers of the historic states and made them subject to the central authority of the Reich, which was in his hands. . . . “Popular assemblies” of the states were abolished, the sovereign powers of the states were transferred to the Reich, all state governments were placed under the Reich government, and the state governors were placed under the the administration of the Reich Minister of the Interior. As this Minister, Frick, explained it, “The state governments from now on are merely administrative bodies of the Reich.””

    — Shirer, p. 200.


  76. “History will not judge us according to whether we have removed and imprisoned the largest number of economists, but according to whether we have succeeded in providing work.” [Hitler to the the Nazi state governors, July 6, 1933]

    — Shirer, p. 206

    “…a newly arrived observer [Shirer himself moved to Germany in 1934] was somewhat surprised to see that the people of the country did not seem to feel that they were being cowed and held down by an unscrupulous and brutal dictatorship. On the contrary, they supported it with genuine enthusiasm. Someone it imbued them with a new hope and a new confidence and an astonishing faith in the future of their country.

    Hitler was liquidating the past, with all its frustrations and disappointments. Step by step, and rapidly…he was freeing Germany from the shackles of Versailles, confounding the victorious Allies and making Germany militarily strong again. This is what most Germans wanted and they were willing to make the sacrifices which the Leader demanded of them to get it: the loss of personal freedom, a Spartan diet (“Guns before Butter”) and hard work. By the autumn of 1936 the problem of unemployment had largely been licked*, almost everyone had a job again and one heard workers who had been deprived of their trade union rights joking, over their full dinner pails, that at least under Hitler there was no more freedom to starve. “Gemeinnutz vor Eigennutz!” (The Common Interest before Self!) was a popular Nazi slogan in those days, and though many a party leader, Goering above all, was secretly enriching himself and the profits of business were mounting, there was no doubt that the masses were taken in by the new “national socialism” which ostensibly put the welfare of the community above one’s personal gain.

    * From February 1933 to the spring of 1937, the number of registered unemployed fell from six million to less than one million.

    — Shirer, pp. 231-232 [Footnote in original]


  77. Isn’t this what they did to Iraq after the invasion under Jerry Bremer? Changed the whole country into a corporate utopia, now coming to a state near you.


  78. Maury,
    First of all, Nazi’s are not left wing. Secondly, business men are not going to get us out of this economic mess that they themselves created.
    Yankee,
    Privatization is their only answer and as you mention it is the wrong answer for the people and the country.


  79. Blouise,
    Thanks! We had the same experience with my brother when he was in Vietnam. I know we will hear something soon.


  80. @Maury: I HAVE done government work. I did several years worth of work in aggregate, on contract, and NO, there was no clause in there for them to terminate me “without cause.” I worked as a contractor for the Department of Defense on three weapons systems; I worked as a contract engineer for one state prison system, and as a contractor for various other state offices, including the welfare office.

    Those contracts had deliverables and schedules and I could be fired for failing to meet them, but that is firing FOR cause, not without cause. A valid cause is not “the government ran out of money.” If they are not defaulting on ALL their debts, they don’t get to prioritize ME for the screwing. A contract is not some “Let’s see how this goes” handshake agreement, it is a legal obligation akin to law (because it is enforceable by the court).


  81. @Maury: It is funny you should cite the “will of the people” when 2/3 of the people in Wisconsin reject the idea of eliminating collective bargaining, and I’d wager that a similar number reject this move in Michigan.

    I suspect, from my experience with past polls and academic work in sociology, that about 80% of the people believe in the results of unionization if they are presented without using the trigger words of “union” or “collective bargaining” or other demonized words. For example:

    1) Should an employee be allowed to refuse to work on a machine that has had a safety feature disabled or broken, without having to endanger their job?

    2) Should an employer be allowed to fire a worker for complaining about unsafe conditions?

    3) Should an employer be allowed to fire a worker for refusing to contribute to a charitable or political campaign supported by the employer?

    4) Should an employer be allowed to require employees to work on jobs unrelated to their expertise, even at the same pay? e.g. Can a teacher be required to work as a janitor all day? Can a fireman, in-between fires, be required to wash school buses?

    Regardless of your own answers to these questions, the answers of most people fall on the union side. The reason for unions in the first place was a pervasive slave-owner mentality among employers, their collusion with each other (both explicit and implicit) and their endangerment of employees and dictatorial retaliation for everything from reporting blatantly illegal company activity to petty beefs over political issues.

    Perhaps in some alternative universe the government would have done its job and protected the weak from the strong, and belatedly OSHA and other laws have addressed the early-days union complaints. But in this country in this universe at that time, the only viable solution was for workers to get organized and stand up for themselves and refuse to let employers continue their exploitation of workers, no matter who the workers were. The only way to force employers to act humanely was to make it economically unviable to continue to be inhuman.

    People support these policies for a reason. If government really is supposed to represent the people, the vast majority of people in this country (95.1%) are employees, not employers (i.e. they do not have an EIN (Employer Identification Number) with the IRS). (Info here.)

    If our government really represented the people, they would focus almost exclusively on the rights of workers and preventing them from being exploited and treated like crap by employers.

    They obviously are not interested. The teachers in Wisconsin, for example, are being screwed by the government; which is claiming their $51K salary plus benefits is far above the average worker. Bullshit, because every teacher in Wisconsin has at least a bachelor’s degree, and the median mid-career salary in this country for people with Bachelor’s degrees is over $70K, with similar benefits. In fact out of 120 bachelor’s degrees studied here, Education majors (a good proxy for teachers) rank 107th out of 120 in terms of mid-career earnings. Elementary Education majors rank 119th out of 120.

    Our government does not represent the people, it represents and serves a tiny slice of super-corporate interests and the super-wealthy and it is helping them to fuck over the 95.1% of the population that does not officially employ anybody, and the 4.8% that have been modest employers of a few handfuls of people at a time.


  82. “People support these policies for a reason. If government really is supposed to represent the people, the vast majority of people in this country (95.1%) are employees, not employers (i.e. they do not have an EIN (Employer Identification Number) with the IRS).”

    Tony C.

    You’ve got it right but I fear that your analysis falls on deaf ears. Having been commenting on this site for a number of years I’ve seen a certain trollish pattern emerge among some contributors. It is easy to play a role on the internet and easy to change ones writing, persona and experience to fit the argument, when a previous sally has been refuted. As Blouise said above:

    “This Troll started posting last week with no capital letters and improperly punctuated contractions only to evolve into “It seems to me there is a confluence of state and local laws.”. In other words, more than one personality at the keyboard.
    That’s the kind of dishonesty the republicans find wholesome and practice in both their politics and their personal lives.
    Now, I write all this not to engage the Troll but to inform my fellow posters as to why I will not be engaging the Troll.”

    We know that the Feudalistic Conspiracy of Plutocrats has invested much time and money in spreading disinformation and lies. They have working for them, paid or not, operators who get a kick playing the game. In the end you can’t win playing with them, because theirs is a dishonest game, using pre-packaged memes and accusations and they will never address it when you demolish their particular argument. they merely ignore it, change the subject or distort what you say. They provide false credentials/careers when needed and when they are consistently beaten in one foray, they simply create another.

    Tootie, who hasn’t been around lately provides an example. This person at first claimed to be an uneducated, working class women,
    of Christian sensibilities, living in the South. When she was accepted as such she began to add a white supremacy theme to her comments. As she was continually shot down in a way that showed her comments to be ridiculous in logic and fact, she responded
    with more and more sophisticated retorts, finally falling completely out of character.

    Maor/Moar/Maury has also followed such a pattern, though with
    differing cover stories. In the end the pattern of a spreader of lies and disinformation has shown through. He is incapable of answering a retort point for point, but engages in subterfuge in response. He answered the Blouise quote above with:

    “Sorry Blouise, there is only one of us at this keyboard.
    I was posting in haste and Mike Spindell made a couple of comments that caused me to decide to clean up my posts a bit.”

    The translation is: I got caught at what I was doing so I had to switch tactics. Given the nature of Plutocratic Propaganda and memes he has resorted to their lame old NAZI/Communist/Socialist
    equivalency. To back this up he quoted selectively from William
    Shirer’s “Decline and Fall of the Third Reich.” A great book written by an eyewitness reporter. I’ve read the book at least six times, the first in my teens, because it is brilliantly written and nails the NAZI’s for who they are. The totality of the book showed clearly that there was no equivalency of thought between the NAZI’s and the Communists, or Socialists in Germany.
    The tactic of calling themselves the National Socialist Party was merely a technique to fool the majority of German people about who these NAZI’s really were.

    We see this today where a Democratic Party and President have become for the most part right of center and yet are being anathematized as socialist/communist/fascists. Were this really his thoughts than he would be suffering from Projection, the psychological term for someone who sees in others, that which they avoid seeing in themselves. There is nothing psychological though in these trolls ravings. They are self aware enough to know exactly what it is they are doing. They are the inheritors of Goebbels “Big Lie” and other propaganda techniques. This is no surprise since those they follow have the same agenda as Hitler and his cohort. Convincing a large group of people to act against their own self interest.

    I am following Blouise’s policy in this and disengaging myself from this proto-NAZI. One can’t defeat in argument someone who will never respond directly to your points but either ignores them, changes the subject, or blatantly lies in refutation. This is true not because the strength of their case or debate skills, but because honest, decent human beings can’t win debates with liars. In the end to engage with this lowlife is to waste valuable amounts of one’s time and give them the credit of equivalency they don’t deserve.


  83. rafflaw:

    “First of all, Nazi’s are not left wing. Secondly, business men are not going to get us out of this economic mess that they themselves created.”

    Take that up with the author I was looking for verification of Woosty’s quote.

    As far as business creating the mess? I think government has the “gun” and so probably has more culpability than business. But you think it is the fault of business and I think it is the fault of government. I imagine the truth is somewhere between those 2 extremes.


  84. Mike S.,

    I think you woke up the sleeping troll.


  85. @Mike: No, we cannot defeat them individually; but I think you will agree it is essentially impossible to get anyone to capitulate on this blog or any other.

    So, speaking only for myself, I think some good is done by refuting their claims with logic and (when it is easy enough for me) facts. I would be rather surprised if they surrendered; that would be an unexpected bonus. My only objective is to discredit them, and give other readers some pause before they buy a bogus argument based on lies or false assumptions. We defeat them by leaving their arguments impotent, or at least more clearly grounded in bigotry, fantasy, hypocrisy or an appalling level of selfishness or greed or callousness that regular people will find alienating.

    That is my own reasoning, and why I bother to engage with people that act out as you describe. I think I have “won” if my arguments elicit the kind of behavior you describe; more lies, subject changing, and an inability or refusal to respond directly to valid arguments and questions.


  86. Maury,
    If that author stated that you have to consider your source not worth the paper it is written on.
    Government didn’t have the gun to force Wall Street to go wild. If they had been regulated properly, it would have not have happened. When Government does not forbid stupid action, it is not Government’s fault when the stupid action by the Banksters brought the economy down in December of 2007.


  87. Mike Spindell:

    you sure you arent guilty of the same thing? You dont want an honest debate on issues either.


  88. rafflaw:

    Government regulation brought the economy down. Or if you wish it was government, banks, mortgage brokers, home builders and people who bought homes for literally nothing and thought they could afford them. But government through the Federal Reserve sets the interest rates and the Community Reinvestment Act set goals for home ownership.

    And it wasn’t just the poor who did it, I know plenty of upper middle class people who thought they were going to make a killing and ended up having to foreclose.

    Making it all about the banks wraps it up in a nice little ball for you.


  89. “So, speaking only for myself, I think some good is done by refuting their claims with logic”

    Tony,

    Please understand I was both calling out the troll and speaking merely for myself. I enjoy your writing and appreciate your point of view. I would never imply your efforts are futile, quite the contrary. I just found for myself that responding to this entity was taking up too much of my time. That was done with the knowledge that others like you would carry on and keep exposing his lies.

    “Mike Spindell:
    you sure you arent guilty of the same thing? You dont want an honest debate on issues either.”

    You know nothing of honest debates. Slime and vitriol characterizes your Nazi propaganda and analingual proclivities towards Plutocrats.


  90. I’m just in a Leonard Cohen mood this PM and I think this gives us all heart.


  91. One more uplift.


  92. Mike Spindell:

    “Slime and vitriol characterizes your Nazi propaganda and analingual proclivities towards Plutocrats.”

    Isn’t that sort of hypocritical to say that while accusing me of slime and vitriol? But then, maybe you are right. The left probably does look at the truth as slime and vitriol.

    Dont you guys on the left have anything to throw except scatological references? I guess you guys never got potty trained properly.


  93. A reply to Maury and those who scents he worships:


  94. Mike S.,

    A perfect response!


  95. And now for a word from the late George Carlin:


  96. Elaine:

    that is funny considering:

    1. the left has control of the major news outlets in this country.
    2. Aren’t you a teacher? So are you telling me you are part of the conspiracy that Carlin is talking about? So you played a part in dumbing down America? Thanks a lot.

    The only problem is that the right thinks the same thing about the left. So what is the truth? The truth is that both the left and the right have screwed this country up by wanting business in bed with government in way or another. That is not the only thing but its a good place to start.


  97. on 1, March 13, 2011 at 5:11 pm Swarthmore mom

    Miike S., Saw Leonard Cohen in concert two years ago. It was fantastic.


  98. on 1, March 13, 2011 at 5:16 pm Swarthmore mom


  99. Mike S.,
    I love that song and I love Credence!
    Maury,
    As usual, you take old talking points and run with them. You are parroting that old right wing claim that leftists control the media. Of course, the fact that almost every major media outlet is owned by corporations has no bearing on your narrow view of the facts. The fact that Fox News makes up facts every day has no bearing on your claim.


  100. @Maury: The only problem is that the right thinks the same thing about the left.

    Carlin isn’t talking about right and left; he is talking about corporatists and the rest of us. When he talks about “owners” being a “big club” he is talking about the few thousand very smart but sociopathic people that control this country for their own self-interest; that lie to the left and lie to the right.

    Your left-right division is a complete fabrication of the real power brokers in this country; the real division is between the royal court and the peasants, and the peasants (including me) are 99.99% of us, literally. About the only way a peasant can become a member of the royal court is through entertainment celebrity or acquiring wealth well north of $100M.

    I believe you fundamentally misunderstand the issues; the social issues the right is obsessed with are just tools used by the royal court, wedges that focus the attention of the left and right on shit the elite does not care about either way, while they steal the money and wealth of this country, and get what Carlin was talking about: Obedient Workers. Or more accurately, Obedient servants with no power to oppose them.

    You enable them by being fooled by them. This economic crisis wasn’t caused by government regulation, it was caused by the repeal of government regulation by Bill Clinton with the help of a non-objecting Congress: The Glass Steagal act. It prevented this wild speculation, and it was put in place after 1929 precisely to prevent this sort of economic crisis, which it did successfully for 60 some-odd years.

    But what looks like a crisis to you looks like a windfall to the owners of this country, and that is why Goldman Sachs is making a fortune a day, and their proteges are getting million dollar bonuses, and why the cycle will continue.

    That’s why Carlin says it won’t get better: The game is rigged, and it is rigged against 99.99% of us.


  101. rafflaw:

    NBC is owned by GE which is headed by a leftist. I dont know about ABC and CBS off the top of my head. CNN is or used to be owned by Ted Turner, not exactly a lefty but loco in any event.

    Many companies are run by the left and people sympathetic to socialist and facist ideology. They are the ones in bed with government. There are many business people trying to stop the entanglement of business and government.

    But the left wont let it go, they want to regulate the heck out of government. You cant have it both ways. Either have regulations and corporatism or do away with government regulation and have a free market. The middle way has been tried and found wanting.


  102. Tony C:

    your analysis is simplistic. Spend a little more time doing your research and I will address your points.


  103. Maury, who is the leftist that runs GE and how is he considered a leftist? Your statement that they are run by people who are sympathetic to fascist and socialist ideology is pure fiction and borderline BS.


  104. on 1, March 13, 2011 at 7:13 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    maury 1, March 13, 2011 at 4:15 pm

    Mike Spindell:

    “Slime and vitriol characterizes your Nazi propaganda and analingual proclivities towards Plutocrats.”

    Isn’t that sort of hypocritical to say that while accusing me of slime and vitriol? But then, maybe you are right. The left probably does look at the truth as slime and vitriol.

    Dont you guys on the left have anything to throw except scatological references? I guess you guys never got potty trained properly.
    ——————————–
    I so disagree….I think the ratio of the right to left regarding knowing poop when we see it is in the lefts favour…having had, so often, to clean up the $#!@ after the right runs the country into the ground….


  105. on 1, March 13, 2011 at 7:16 pm Woosty's still a Cat


  106. @Maury: My analysis isn’t simplistic, and Carlin’s wasn’t either. My analysis is evidence-based, and my analysis explains the actions of the left and the right.

    The result is simple because the motivations are actually pretty simple; Eisenhower wasn’t some nut job conspiracist when he warned us against the rising “military industrial complex.”

    The motivations are money and elitism; and by elitism I don’t mean prestige or public respect or fame, I mean being exempt from the laws that keep the peasants in line. How many celebrities have you heard admit to the use of pot, or crack, or cocaine, without consequence? How many have to serve 3 months in “rehab” while a peasant facing the same charge with the same evidence serves three years in prison? That is elitism.

    The rich don’t give a crap about abortion law, they are exempt: There are a dozen countries with hospitals better than the USA that will perform them without issue; just fly there.

    They don’t care about drug laws, because they live in gated estates with armed guards that the police would never raid. They don’t care about prostitution laws; for the same reason, and with both drugs and prostitution just get to Canada. Or religion, or anything else you care about. All they care about is taxes and business expenses and being able to financially screw their worker drones without facing any sanctions.

    Like Massey energy (coal) or BP (gulf oil), they want to be able to put workers in lethal danger (literally) without any ramifications, and that is what they do. But it is never cheap enough, and by the time you wake up and realize that this is about money and legal elitism, and they never gave a crap about deficits, or abortion, or gays, or churches, or your economic situation, or your safety and security, it will be too late for you, because by the time you realize you have been betrayed by the “right,” or by the “left” for that matter, the betrayal that is in progress will have been already accomplished.

    If you think my analysis is “simplistic,” please point out what you think needs to be more complex.


  107. on 1, March 13, 2011 at 9:40 pm Anonymously Yours

    Tony C.

    Excellent points made//


  108. Tony C.,

    Your points are crystal clear … well said, sir.


  109. on 1, March 13, 2011 at 10:08 pm Anonymously Yours

    raf,

    Didn’t NBC get sold to comcast or is that insider info I need to trade on….


  110. on 1, March 13, 2011 at 10:09 pm Anonymously Yours

    Blouise,

    Good evening aka morning….some days they are interchangeable…


  111. on 1, March 13, 2011 at 10:15 pm Anonymously Yours

    Hello SWM…


  112. Hello, AY, How are you?


  113. AY,
    Yes, Comcast did buy them. My bad. Comcast being the owner is even worse news for our friend, Maury.


  114. “realize that this is about money and legal elitism, and they never gave a crap about deficits, or abortion, or gays, or churches, or your economic situation, or your safety and security”

    Tony,

    Superb.


  115. Here’s a link to a long and interesting article at Daily Kos (3/8/2011):

    Gov Rick Snyder Sellout? Prefabricated Corporate Michigan (Government) Courtesy of Koch & ALEC Excl.
    by Hector Solon
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/08/953811/-Gov-Rick-Snyder-Sellout-Prefabricated-Corporate-Michigan-(Government)-Courtesy-of-KochALEC-Excl

    Excerpts:
    Michigan Governor Rick Snyder and the Snyder Team/Policy are about to become the first totally irrelevant ‘Republican’ Administration in Michigan history. Armed and on the march with prewritten policy and legislation from the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) and other think-tanks, the Michigan Republican Majorities in both the Michigan Senate and Michigan House of Representatives are steamrolling a right wing agenda – Michigan “Government in a Box”.

    Using imported ‘model legislation’ Michigan Legislators have already put up a long list of bills built by special interest led teams outside of Michigan. The goal: complete rewrite of Michigan’s government and policies designed over decades by conservative, right wing / corporate interests to suit their agenda and profits, not the needs of Michigan citizens.

    ANALYSIS: Will CEO Rick Snyder just be another rubber stamp signature on scripted ALEC Laws? How many Smoking Guns have been found in Michigan Legislation so far?

    Rick Snyder’s path to Nerd nihil ad rem; ALEC’s ghostwriting of State laws supplanting State Legislatures; What is ALEC doing in Michigan? Plenty…

    **********

    “GOP Governors Shift Burden To Poor, Middle Class To Pay For Tax Breaks For Rich, Corporations” by Josh Dorner on February 22, 2011:

    Republican governors are using [recent election victories in 2010] as an opportunity to advance several longtime GOP projects: union busting, draconian cuts to social programs, and massive corporate tax breaks. These misplaced priorities mean that the poor and middle class will shoulder the burden of fiscal austerity, even as the rich and corporations are asked to contribute even less.
    (break)
    When Republican governors speak of “shared sacrifice,” it seems that the only thing they mean is sacrifices by the poor and middle class in order to fund massive tax breaks for the rich and corporations.

    **********

    Most every session of the Michigan Legislature dozens of bills are introduced which suggest a change in the state’s governance, codes, or laws. Some bills, of course, address an immediate need for reform or prompt action as a remedy for a “hot button” problem or crisis. Many more bills are introduced to deal with housekeeping affairs. Each session a limited number of bills are designed by one faction, or partisan group to attack and alter the fortunes of the opposition. Finally, many bills are introduced to effect changes in the rules and regulations, taxation and allocation of tax monies as would bear on the operations of government, private individuals, law enforcement, public institutions, and business etc.

    Years back a fledgling group of far right businessmen and ideologues began to comprehend the value of having direct and effective access to this process of state-by-state development, introduction, and passage of agendas into law. They formed A.L.E.C. – The American Legislative Exchange Council.

    From “Ghostwriting the Law”, Karen Olson, Mother Jones, Sept.Oct. 2002:

    Republican Strategist Paul Weyrich, founded the Heritage Foundation in 1973 — a think tank to promote the ideas of the New Right. Weyrich also founded ALEC, The American Legislative Exchange Council in 1973 to coordinate the work of Religious Right state legislators. ALEC initially positioned itself as a counterweight to liberal foundations and think tanks, focusing on social issues like abortion and the Equal Rights Amendment, but [ALEC] became a magnet for corporate lobbyists.

    The origination and first thrust at the inception of ALEC dealt with ERA, abortion, and other specific social issues, but quickly moved on to a whole range of corporate driven agendas. There was a sizable group of wealthy conservatives who endowed this effort to put ALEC in place as a way to shape and direct legislation and pass laws friendly to their goals and with the specific aim of rolling back legislation they believe impedes their business operations.

    The Heritage Foundation, created in the Era of Ronald Reagan, was having early success and Heritage’s early members saw that their creation of ALEC as a subgroup with a targeted task could be a valuable asset to put their ideologies and business goals into state laws. Because a number of the Heritage Foundation benefactors/underwriters were rich, money was not a limiting concern and their influence flourishes.

    Not satisfied with the progress they saw as a result of their influence with federal officials and officeholders, ALEC has turned its attention more and more toward state government, which Newt Gingrich has identified as the “laboratory” for change. Currently, the coordinated thrust in Michigan and around the country is to pass legislation that impedes or cripples collective bargaining and attacks the level of income and benefits for public employees as a systematic way to cripple unions and any opposition, and to promote the interests of conservatives and big business in order to support Republican Party candidates for the 2012 National Election. Karl Rove has openly confirmed this game plan, enthusiastically. Michigan is one of the prime targets because of its history as the home of the UAW, and Wisconsin the birthplace of many reforms supporting the average worker employee in America, is in center stage of this National Republican Strategy.


  116. From Crooks and Liars (3/12/2011)
    Michigan’s Governor May Be Worse Than Walker
    http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/michigans-governor-may-be-worse-walker

    Excerpt:
    This law will give this Republican administration in Michigan the right to overturn the will of the people by tossing their elected officials out and moving the “backboned ones” in.

    Michigan happens to be the home state of the DeVos family (of Amway fame), who has spent millions via their non-profit foundation to set up urban schools for privatization. Like Wisconsin, Rick Snyder received millions from the Republican Governors’ Association and the Chamber of Commerce for his run in 2010. And like Wisconsin, Rick Snyder received plenty of extra help from corporate interests, from insurance companies to chemical companies to financial companies.

    The coordinated efforts across these many states makes me wonder if they’re violating RICO statutes. If ever there was an example of racketeering, it’s what the US Chamber, Koch Industries, the Republican Governors’ Association and corporate interests are doing in these states. While they railroad people everywhere, the stench of their arrogance rises like the odor of dead fish on the beach.


  117. From MLive
    Rick Snyder outflanks the Tea Party on tax hikes
    Published: Friday, March 11, 2011
    http://blog.mlive.com/capitolchronicles/2011/03/rick_snyder_outflanks_the_tea.html

    When Republicans won everything in Michigan last year, they were supposed to put an end to tax increases forever.

    Well, that lasted until Gov. Rick Snyder came up with his budget that taxes pensions (sorry, Grandma), eliminates the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) for low-income working folks and freezes the income tax at 4.25 percent instead of gradually rolling it back to 3.9 percent.

    Tea Party groups have been strangely quiet about all this (Just as they would have been if the Democrats had been in power, no doubt).

    But here’s something that really gets at the heart of their movement. Republicans have figured out that by inserting a $100 spending appropriation in tax-hiking bills, they can avoid voters putting the plan up for a referendum.

    Wow. That doesn’t seem to respect the Tea Partiers’ agenda of less spending, less government and less taxes. And it seems to be a big kiss-off to taxpaying voters who might not agree with their policies and want to take action.


  118. on 1, March 14, 2011 at 10:17 am Stamford Liberal

    Maury, as usual, makes excuses for this illegality. If this were done under a Democrat in the governor’s seat, the Rabid and Ridiculous Right would have a major league hissy fit, and Maury would surely be singing a different tune.

    Maury, just quit while you’re ahead.


  119. From Think Progress (3/14/2011)
    Gov. Snyder’s Budget: 86 Percent Cut In Corporate Taxes, Regressive Increase In Personal Taxes
    http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2011/03/14/snyder-tax-analysis/

    Excerpt:
    As we’ve been documenting, several conservative governors have proposed placing the brunt of deficit reduction onto the backs of their state’s public employees, students, and middle-class taxpayers, while simultaneously trying to enact corporate tax cuts and giveaways. Govs. Rick Scott (R-FL), Tom Corbett (R-PA), and Jan Brewer (R-AZ) have all gone down this road.

    Following suit, Gov. Rick Snyder (R-MI) has proposed ending his state’s Earned Income Tax Credit, cutting a $600 per child tax credit, and reducing credits for seniors, while also cutting funding for school districts by eight to ten percent. At the same time, as the Michigan League for Human Services found, the state’s business taxes would be reduced by nearly $2 billion, or 86 percent, under Snyder’s plan:

    Business taxes would be cut by 86 percent from an estimated $2.1 billion in FY 2011 to $292.7 million in FY 2013, the first full year of the proposed tax changes…Taxes on individuals from the state income tax would rise by $1.7 billion or nearly 31 percent, from an estimated $5.75 billion in FY 2011 to $7.5 billion in FY 2013, the first full year of the tax changes.


  120. From The Michigan Messenger
    Capitol protests to ramp up this week
    Is Michigan the new Wisconsin?
    By Todd A. Heywood | 03.14.11 |
    http://michiganmessenger.com/47265/capitol-protests-to-ramp-up-this-week

    Excerpt:
    Groups as varied as the American Association of Retired People, labor unions and the Michigan League for Human Services are launching a series of protests and rallies this week to challenge Republican Gov. Rick Snyder’s budget proposals and bills that would weaken unions.

    On Monday, Progress Michigan will hold a series of press conferences across the state highlighting the impacts of Snyder’s budget proposals, including state revenue sharing cuts, education cuts and more. The press conferences, which will feature local elected leaders, Chamber of Commerce members, union members and more, will take place in Mt. Clemens, Monroe, Marshall, Detroit, Birmingham, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, Saginaw and Kalamazoo Monday.

    The press conference will precede a protest planned Tuesday by the AARP and the Michigan League for Human Services. Those two groups are worried about budget proposals by the Snyder administration to tax retirement incomes and to eliminate the Earned Income Tax Credit, respectively.

    The AARP issued the following statement as part of an action alert released over the weekend:

    AARP believes this budget is an all out attack on older Michiganders. We believe what our members are getting in this plan is a much higher tax bill and reduced services. This plan would raise taxes on 1.1 million seniors in exchange for a business tax cut, while also reducing spending for public schools and universities, police and fire fighters, local road repairs and other vital programs and services. This is unfair and unacceptable!

    Meanwhile, on Monday, the Michigan League for Human Services will launch a video series called “I am the Earned Income Tax Credit.” The series will feature four Michigan residents who rely on the EITC to pay for everyday things. In addition to the videos, the group also launched a new website addressing the issue.

    While lawmakers have been clear that they oppose the pension tax in Snyder’s proposal, they have been relatively mute in reference to the EITC. Judy Putnam, communications director for the MILHS told the Michigan Messenger, “Elected officials seem very attuned to needs of senior voter but not always to the needs of poor people. Ironically, the polling done by the Detroit Free Press/WXYZ shows that more voters oppose eliminating the EITC than are opposed to taxing pensions yet much of the media/discussion has been on pensions. The AARP is very effective in getting its members to make calls to lawmakers.”


  121. @Elaine: It is looking more like Wisconsin was just the beginning; Michigan is looking ten times as bad.


  122. on 1, March 14, 2011 at 5:34 pm Stamford Liberal

    Posted this on the 3rd Scott Walker thread as well:

    Michigan’s GOP Governor Slashes Corporate Tax Rate by 86 Percent, Hikes Taxes for Working Poor

    Monday 14 March 2011

    by: Pat Garofolo |

    As we’ve been documenting, several conservative governors have proposed placing the brunt of deficit reduction onto the backs of their state’s public employees, students, and middle-class taxpayers, while simultaneously trying to enact corporate tax cuts and giveaways. Govs. Rick Scott (R-FL), Tom Corbett (R-PA), and Jan Brewer (R-AZ) have all gone down this road.

    Following suit, Gov. Rick Snyder (R-MI) has proposed ending his state’s Earned Income Tax Credit, cutting a $600 per child tax credit, and reducing credits for seniors, while also cutting funding for school districts by eight to ten percent. At the same time, as the Michigan League for Human Services found, the state’s business taxes would be reduced by nearly $2 billion, or 86 percent, under Snyder’s plan:

    Business taxes would be cut by 86 percent from an estimated $2.1 billion in FY 2011 to $292.7 million in FY 2013, the first full year of the proposed tax changes…Taxes on individuals from the state income tax would rise by $1.7 billion or nearly 31 percent, from an estimated $5.75 billion in FY 2011 to $7.5 billion in FY 2013, the first full year of the tax changes.
    The forces against independent journalism are growing.

    As the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy found, the practical upshot of Snyder’s tax increases is to place even more of a burden on Michigan’s poorest residents, who will see a bigger hike than those at the upper end of the income scale:

    Michigan already has a regressive tax system, which Snyder’s proposal will only make worse. Currently, someone in the poorest 20 percent of Michigan taxpayers pays a tax rate of 8.9 percent, while someone in the richest one percent pays 5.3 percent.
    In addition to trying to make an unfair tax system even more problematic for Michigan’s low-income residents, Snyder has also asked that the state be given the power to dismiss local government and appoint emergency “town managers” who could break contracts and “strip powers from elected officials.”

    http://www.truth-out.org/michigans-gop-gov-slashes-corporate-tax-rate-86-percent-hikes-taxes-working-poor68453

    The article contains two graphs which didn’t copy


  123. on 1, March 14, 2011 at 5:35 pm Stamford Liberal

    And just realized Elaine M posted already … sorry for the redundancy …


  124. the day that liberals care about the middle class is the day I turn into a progressive.

    What a joke, saying you support the middle class. That is like saying Hugh Hefner supports abstinence and modesty.

    But good luck, I think you are going to be unpleasantly surprised in both Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Not that Dick Morris is any great pollster but he called 409 Wisconsin voters and this is what he found:

    WISCONSIN POLL RESULTS

    The Dick Morris Poll conducted a telephone survey among 409 likely Wisconsin voters. The survey has a margin of error of +- 4%.

    Findings: Wisconsin voters break almost evenly on Governor Walker’s proposed reforms, supporting them by a margin of 51-47.

    So it is pretty much 50/50. It isn’t some sort of tidal wave against Walker. As the Wisconsin economy gets better that will change.

    But that’s probably about right, 50% of the people in the US are takers and 50% are makers. The goal is to reduce the number of takers, whether people or businesses.


  125. on 1, March 14, 2011 at 5:52 pm Stamford Liberal

    Dick Morris … hey Maury, don’t hurt yourself with all that reaching you’re doing … lmao


  126. Maury,
    If you are relying on a paid Fox New Analyst for a non partisan poll you are fooling yourself. That toe-sucker would show results that the sun rose in the East if Fox News told him to. Did you see the video of the 100,000 people in Madison over the weekend?? Did you or Dick Morris see the money the Dems have collected since this evil power grab started? Did you or your friend Dick see how many recall signatures have been received so far? If you are bringing Dick Morris to the table, don’t bother showing up.


  127. on 1, March 14, 2011 at 6:26 pm Stamford Liberal

    rafflaw,

    As I just stated on another thread – far be it from Republican’s to let facts get in the way of their fantasies.

    Maury is just doing what he’s being paid to do – A butt-bitch for the GOP.


  128. on 1, March 14, 2011 at 6:27 pm Anonymously Yours

    Maury,

    Or whom ever you may post on…I will not be responding to anymore of your dribble. You may need to take on a new name or post in a different style…Good luck and tell your boss I said Hi..


  129. AY,
    Maury, roam, Roar or whatever name he chooses next won’t be leaving for awhile. The Koch Brothers and the Teapublicans haven’t completed their plan of crushing the middle class and confirming that women are second class citizens. One of these days he may even use a non-partisan source in one of his arguments.


  130. From Huffington Post (3/14/2011)
    Michigan Set To Enact Sweeping ‘Financial Martial Law’ Bill
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/14/michigan-set-to-enact-sweeping-financial-martial-law_n_835526.html

    Excerpt:
    Representative John Conyers (D-Mich.) says that the bill “raises serious constitutional concerns”:

    Article I, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution explicitly prohibits any State from impairing a contract, which is exactly what this legislation does. As the Supreme Court has held in Home Building & Loan Association v. Blaisdell (1934), the sanctity of contracts cannot be impaired by a state law “which renders them invalid, or releases or extinguishes them … Not only are existing laws read into contracts in order to fix obligations as between the parties, but the reservation of essential attributes of sovereign power is also read into contracts as a postulate of the legal order.”

    Further, the bill empowers this financial czar with the Governor’s approval to force a municipality into bankruptcy, a power that will surely be used to extract further concessions from hardworking public sector workers. And, by making the risk of bankruptcy a reality, the bill will make it more not less expensive for municipalities to obtain financing given this risk, which will make the financial circumstances of municipalities even worse.

    In his recent book, Griftopia, Matt Taibbi offers up a compelling example of Conyers’ worst fears realized: the private takeover of Chicago’s municipal parking meters. Presented to the Chicago City Council with the aim of forcing them into a hasty decision, with the urgency of the financial crisis as a whip, Chicago ceded control of their parking meters to a private concern put together by Morgan Stanley’s infrastructure fund that eventually ended up in the hands of foreign investors.

    As someone like Carl Levin might point out, the people of Chicago were stuck with a “shitty deal”:

    To start with something simple, it changed some basic traditions of local Chicago politics. Aldermen who used to have the power to close streets for fairs and festivals or change meter schedules now cannot — or if they do, they have to compensate Chicago Parking Meters LLC for its loss of revenue.

    So, for example, when the new ownership told Alderman Scott Waguespack that it wanted to change the meter schedule from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday through Saturday to 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. seven days a week, the alderman balked and said he’d rather keep the old schedule, at least for 270 of his meters. Chicago Parking Meters then informed him that if he wanted to do that, he would have to pay the company $608,000 over three years.

    The bigger problem was that Chicago sold out way too cheap. Daley and Co. got roughly $1.2 billion for seventy-five years’ worth of revenue from 36,000 parking meters. But by hook or crook various aldermen began to find out that Daley had vastly undervalued the meter revenue.

    When Waguespack did the math on that $608,000 he was going to be charged, he discovered that the company valued the meters at about 39¢ an hour, which for 36,000 meters works out to $66 million a year, or about $5 billion over the life of the contract.

    “When it comes to finding a figure for the citizens of Chicago, they say the meters are worth $1.16 billion,” Waguespack said shortly after the deal. “But when it comes to finding a figure to cover Morgan Stanley, they say they’re worth, what, $5 billion? Who are they looking out for, the residents or Morgan Stanley?”
    [...]

    But the most obnoxious part of the deal is that the city is now forced to cede control of their streets to a virtually unaccountable private and at least partially foreign-owned company. Written into the original deal were drastic price increases. In Hairston’s and Colon’s neighborhoods, meter rates went from 25¢ an hour to $1.00 an hour the first year, and to $1.20 an hour the year after that. And again, the city has no power to close streets, remove or move meters, or really do anything without asking the permission of Chicago Parking Meters LLC.

    Welcome to your future, people of Michigan (where the working class is already carrying the state’s fiscal problems on their backs alone)! And while I’m sure the proponents of the bill will insist up and down that these extreme measures are meant to be temporary ones, God help you if you find yourself wanting to retrieve control of public sector assets from the folks that “bailed them out.” While public contracts seem to be eminently violable, what typically happens when you act to undercut private sector profits is that you get the bejeezus sued out of you.

    Beyond that, the removal of legally elected public officials in favor of unaccountable czar-types is probably the most radical part of the proposed measure. And, hey, speaking of “czars,” here’s Jim Newell with what would normally be, in some circles, a fairly obvious observation:

    You hear Tea Party folks and Republicans in Congress complain about the White House’s collection of “czars” — appointees with actual departmental jobs who coordinate policy in certain sectors. Supposedly the czar system is an undemocratic way of rewarding cronies and bypassing congressional checks on power. But if that’s a problem, and maybe it is, then new Republican Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder’s bill for appointing “emergency financial managers” to reorganize the state’s failing localities should be met with about 100 times more revulsion.
    I’d wager that you won’t hear a peep out of the “down with czars” set on this matter.


  131. Elaine,
    I agree with Conyers. This is a pure power grab that would encroach on the rights of the local towns.


  132. on 1, March 14, 2011 at 8:58 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury the Troll: I am middle class as are most or all the people here. How do you account that most or all would identify themselves as progressive, liberal or both and none of us are trying to destroy ourselves? Never mind trying to come up with an answer. It might cause you to throw you back out trying to pull something out of your nether parts.


  133. @Maury: Liberals support progressive taxation; meaning a greater percentage of income the more the income is. By definition, we care more about the middle class than the upper class.

    Most social liberals support legalization of at least pot: The “War on Drugs” is costing middle-class taxpayers a fortune (and is wasting the lives of law enforcement officers) both for enforcement and for jailing offenders; I believe drug laws are the number one cause of imprisonment.

    Liberals tend to believe in a social safety net, and that benefits the middle class directly. It is the people buying houses and cars and raising families that need unemployment insurance; not the wealthy.

    Liberals believe in a strong public educational system, even at the expense of higher taxes. Who does that benefit? The rich wouldn’t care, they will pay for private schools and tutoring, they can pay $50K a semester to buy their kid a slot at Harvard or Yale.

    Pretty much the whole point of liberalism is to benefit the non-wealthy, the bottom 95%, which really benefits all of us by bringing everyone up to a level where they can contribute. Liberals are what humanity has been about for 50,000 years; cooperation for mutual benefit.

    The earliest hunting parties did not eat by competing with each other, they ate by cooperating to bring home the wild bacon. Villages 1500 years ago had communal ovens for baking bread, and children took turns tending them. Farmers banded together to build irrigation ditches. If you guys help me build my barn, I’ll help you build yours.

    We all pay some tax to keep a police force on patrol that keeps everybody safer, because the burglar they imprisoned yesterday might have been at my house tomorrow, and the drunk driver they stop tomorrow might have killed a member of my family a week from now.

    Benefitting the middle class isn’t about cutting their taxes, it is about keeping the safe, free, healthy and financially secure. It is about giving their children an environment that lets them reach their potential and pursue their own American dream, whatever it may be. And it is about doing all that without violating their rights of self-determination or forcing some minority view of morality, or sexuality, or religion upon them.

    That is what conservatives crave, is control of others, to force others to fit into their own narrow-minded roles, to define what is “good” for the middle-class entirely in terms of the dollars and cents they cannot stop obsessing about. It is conservatives that do not give a shit about the middle class, because they really only give a shit about themselves. They have so little empathy that the very thought of having to give up a dollar to help a fellow citizen in need just enrages them; as Michigan shows, they would literally rather those in need die before they will give up a dollar. And not every dollar, no, just ONE dollar.

    It is liberals that care about others, including the middle class, and understand that it is worth some percentage of a paycheck to address desperation and hunger and despair, which are the true causes of crime, gangs and drug abuse. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and in this case can save lives, save marriages, keep families together and prevent disasters. That is what we care about.


  134. Tony C.,
    Great seminar, but you forgot that liberals are better looking! :)


  135. I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. My local ‘news’ (basically weather with a smattering of relevant information) station, WOOD TV8, has said absolutely NOTHING about this. In fact, they go out of their way to show Governor Snyder in the best possible light.

    As we speak, people are heading to Lansing to protest. Our news describes it as ‘budget proposal protests’ when in fact it is directly tied to the fascist ‘financial emergency act’ which can be viewed here:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/billengrossed/House/pdf/2011-HEBS-4214.pdf

    My first whiff of suspicion to Gov. Snyder’s Corporofascist leanings came from a campaign commercial in which he said that Citizens should be considered ‘Customers’. Secondly, He was the head of Gateway Computers.

    When my father asked if I was going to vote for him, I told him there is no way in hell that I would vote for a Corporatist. Now we get to watch him turn our public utilities into private hands. This is absolutely disgusting and he is going to be America’s first overt dictator.


  136. on 1, March 15, 2011 at 7:51 am Stamford Liberal

    Tony C,

    Well said, sir.


  137. Eric,

    Thanks for your input and for the link to that bill.


  138. on 1, March 15, 2011 at 8:35 am Otteray Scribe

    Well said, Tony C., Eric and all.

    Moving right along, one of the best allegorical stories I have read recently is up at the moment on DKos, entitled, “Losing the Class War: What’s the Matter With West Virginia?”

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/14/956440/-Losing-the-Class-War:-Whats-the-Matter-With-West-Virginia


  139. Today Decides Fate of Emergency Financial Manager Bill
    Legislation Would Give Broad New Powers To Emergency Managers In Michigan
    Tuesday, March 15, 2011
    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/27197543/detail.html

    Excerpts:
    LANSING — Legislation that would give broad new powers to emergency managers appointed to guide financially struggling cities and schools in Michigan is close to becoming law.

    The Senate passed the main bill in the package by a 26-12 party-line vote. Now the bill will head to the the Republican-led House for a vote Tuesday, then on to Gov. Rick Snyder.

    Snyder, a Republican, called for emergency manager legislation in January and is likely to sign the bills once they reach his desk. He noted last week, however, that details of the legislation still are changing as it works its way through the Legislature.

    Opponents of the legislation are concerned because emergency financial managers who are appointed by the state would have the power to terminate union contracts held by school teachers and local government workers. Democrats say the measures are an assault on collective bargaining.

    **********

    The current state law related to emergency financial managers is affecting about a half-dozen local communities and schools at this time. Only Pontiac, Benton Harbor, Ecorse and the Detroit Public Schools have state-appointed emergency financial managers in place.

    Many more communities and schools might fall under the jurisdiction of a revised law, and Democrats objected to so many losing their right to run themselves. Democrats say Snyder is contributing to the problem by proposing deep cuts in state support for local governments and public schools. Snyder says too many are loaded up with debt and paying salaries or benefits out of sync with the private sector.

    An amendment to the main bill that would have capped an emergency manager’s salary at the approved annual pay rate of Michigan’s governor — currently about $159,000 — failed under fairly unique circumstances. Senators tied on a 19-19 vote, and Republican Lt. Gov. Brian Calley broke the tie with a “no” vote, drawing some boos from protesters in the Senate gallery. One protester shouted “shame on you” after Calley’s vote.


  140. From Central Michigan Life
    EDITORIAL: Proposed ‘financial emergency’ bill an affront to democracy
    By Editorial Board || March 14, 2011
    http://www.cm-life.com/2011/03/14/editorial-proposed-financial-emergency-bill-an-affront-to-democracy/

    Excerpt:
    No emergency or governmental crisis is ever so desperate to justify betraying the fundamentals of democracy.

    House Bill 4214, which has already passed through the Senate with a number of amendments, would allow state financial authorities and Gov. Rick Snyder to declare a “local government” such as a city or township to be in a “financial emergency.” Once declared in a financial emergency, they would appoint an “emergency manager” to revamp the municipality’s financial situation.

    Such an emergency manager would be able to redistribute and restructure the government’s finances however they see fit. They would have the authority to terminate any contracts, end collective bargaining agreements with labor unions and even dissolve the municipal government, according to information on http://www.legislature.mi.gov.

    The bill, which gained national attention when it was covered on MSNBC’s “The Rachel Maddow Show,” is an affront to the democracy this state and country were founded on.

    The emergency managers described in the bill can be government officials, private citizens or even corporations. Allowing private citizens or companies to fire elected officials or dissolve an entire government purely on their own authority is unacceptable.

    If a city is truly in a financial emergency, drastic measures may be required. However, this bill is far too drastic and far too broad on every level.

    It does not narrowly define a “financial emergency.” Although logic would suggest that such measures would only be used in the most dire situations where there are no other options, the bill does not say that.

    There is nothing stopping Snyder from declaring financial emergencies in municipalities whose officials he has a problem with, appointing his friends from corporate circles as the emergency managers who would then run the municipality in the way most profitable to themselves.

    In other words, this bill would enable everything that a democratically-elected government and the accountability it provides is meant to prevent.


  141. Elaine M, That’s a great story you found regarding the parking meters. I though wonder if the city isn’t being disingenuous about the virtue of their decision. I’m specifically wondering if city revenue for parking violations hasn’t gone up from the expanded hours. I also can’t imagine them not getting a cut of the revenue, if they don’t whoever negotiated the deal should be fired.

    It would seem that if the city still controls the parking laws in regards to enforcement and prosecution for violations then they could ease a lot of pain with a few changes to their city statutes. If they were out-smarted up front in that regard then whoever negotiated the contract/sale should be shot.

    There is a new and strange ‘movement’ in Greece dubbed the ‘I won’t pay’ movement that’s interesting. The last paragraph speculates that it is driven in part because the citizenry no longer sees the equality of their system of justice so they just make a point of flouting certain tariffs imposed on them:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41723432/ns/business-world_business/


  142. From the Detroit News (Last Updated: March 15. 2011 1:00AM)
    Michigan Capitol braces for protests of Snyder’s budget plan
    Karen Bouffard / Detroit News Lansing Bureau
    http://detnews.com/article/20110315/POLITICS02/103150349/1024/POLITICS03/Michigan-Capitol-braces-for-protests-of-Snyder’s-budget-plan

    Excerpt:

    Lansing — Gov. Rick Snyder’s budget and tax reform proposal and bills in the Legislature will be the target of protests at the state Capitol building over the next two days.

    AARP Michigan put the Capitol on notice to expect up to 1,000 seniors today to protest Snyder’s plan to tax pensions, said Steve Benkovsky, who manages the Capitol operations.

    The next day, the AFL-CIO is expected to rally against what they call “anti-union” bills in the Legislature, including changes to binding arbitration laws. Benkovsky said they expect about 3,000 protesters.

    Senior citizens are upset Snyder wants to raise about $900 million by taxing pensions to help balance the state budget and offset part of $1.8 billion in business tax cuts. AARP Michigan spokesman Mark Hornbeck said he can’t be sure how many will show up, but knows of at least 400 who plan to arrive by bus.

    Several other groups are taking part, too, in the event billed as the “It’s Not Fair” rally. Speakers from state employee unions and groups opposed to cuts in education are expected to speak, as well as Democratic lawmakers.

    Wednesday’s AFL-CIO rally will protest more than 30 bills proposed in the Legislature and organizers expect it to be the largest labor protest of Snyder’s plan unveiled in late February.


  143. on 1, March 15, 2011 at 10:24 am Stamford Liberal

    Elaine M,

    Many thanks for staying on top of this – kudos, lady!

    “AARP Michigan put the Capitol on notice to expect up to 1,000 seniors today to protest Snyder’s plan to tax pensions, said Steve Benkovsky, who manages the Capitol operations.”

    I’d rather look out of my window and see 10,000 teachers protesting than 1,000 senior citizens – especially the ornery ones :D


  144. Stamford Liberal,

    Watch what you say about us elderly folks!

    As far as the senior protesters go–I think being a little “ornery” is called for when one considers what Gov. Snyder is trying to do.


  145. on 1, March 15, 2011 at 10:33 am Stamford Liberal

    Elaine M,

    Lol – I was thinking about my mother and her best friend while reading that particular part … I love them dearly but watch out when they get pissed!

    I agree. In this case, seniors have every right to be a little ornery.


  146. Many excellent comments made With those of Elaine and Tony C. leading the estimable pack. Much of what I could say would be redundant, save for the fact that I’m in total agreement. We are witnessing the climax of 47 years of the Corporatist/Plutocratic Cabal’s limitless expenditures to control the media and to advance their propaganda to become the currency of discussion. In doing so they have tried to cloud the minds of the populace as to how this country was intended to be run, undermined public education, taken advantage of people’s Faith and utilized any convenient subterfuge to advance their agenda. Make no mistake about it this agenda is merely to reinstate feudalism, into a modern context.

    What we face and face it we must, is to destroy the mythology that has permeated this debate. The problem with our past approaches (by us I mean those who seek a caring society)is that we have allowed this enemy to set the terms of debate, believed that mere refutation by presentation of facts is effective and most importantly presented our case in a manner similar to that of the Religious Fundamentalists thus weakening it via limiting its’ acceptance.

    Just as the anti-abortion movement focuses on the fetus before birth and neglects the child afterwards, We have created an analogous methodology. By focusing on the individual problems of racism, sexism and the poor (all extremely important concerns)
    we have neglected the majority of people whose support we must reach to be effective: the middle and working classes. The thrust of the Plutocrats are indeed attacks in an ongoing class
    war of their own declaration. The only way to answer these attacks is to hit back with what their policies have done to the middle and working classes (the distinction between which is a permeable separation). We must arouse them into seeing that this directly affects their self interest and not couch our sallies in the form which only separates our cause into alleviating the misery of individual groups, without showing how this is a generalized assault and all interrelated.

    The President’s greatest failing, whether deliberate or through his own misunderstanding, is that bi-partisanship as a means of problem solving never works if those you try to deal with are at war, while you are merely seeking consensus. This is a war. The other side represents a threat as great as fascism and communism ever were, because feudalism that supposedly outdated system is alive and well in the world. Same game, centuries later, with nothing to do with political philosophy. The pseudo-Alpha Males
    crave power, position and recognition and that requires our subservience. That is the struggle and it is one we can’t afford to lose for the sake of our current and future progeny.

    What has happened at this moment is I think a critical turning point. Heartened by the recent electoral victory, amplified beyond its significance by a corporate media and its pundits, I believe our opponents have overstepped themselves to the point where they have ripped open their veil and exposed the rot that resides within. Our response to this miscalculation is critical
    and could well decide the issue one way or the other. So far,
    despite the falsehoods perpetrated by the corporate media, average people are getting the message and reacting with horror and disgust. We must help to keep these revelations in the public’s consciousness and not be lured into the trap of making palliative deals with the devils. It could well be all or nothing time.


  147. Eric,

    You are doing all you can do … stand up, speak out … join with others and defeat the thieves that would steal all you have simply so they can have more.

    WOODTV8 is owned by LIN Media. LIN Media owns and operates stations and websites in 17 U.S. markets, offering a growing portfolio of Internet-based products & services providing around-the-clock access to each station’s trusted local news and information.

    Although they are now showing something on their site pertaining to the demonstrators, you might wish to contact LINMedia via email if you continue to be disappointed in their coverage … make the Corporations answer to you.


  148. “This is a war. The other side represents a threat as great as fascism and communism ever were, because feudalism that supposedly outdated system is alive and well in the world. Same game, centuries later, with nothing to do with political philosophy. The pseudo-Alpha Males crave power, position and recognition and that requires our subservience. That is the struggle and it is one we can’t afford to lose for the sake of our current and future progeny.” (Mike Spindell)

    Indeed, this is war.


  149. @Mike: Well said. I would add that in my opinion the infection is not limited to Republicans. Modern Democrats are well to the right of Nixonian Republicans, and even Reagan Republicans, both on social issues and taxes.

    Now, once again, the Republicans have adopted insanely draconian conservative measures that make our most conservative and least liberal Democrats look good by comparison, and once again we will take another step to the right.

    These guys win by losing. Every time they do this, even if their measures are struck down, they drag the political frame another foot to the right. I presume that eventually this blog will be discussing whether we favor the Republican stance that employers have the right to harvest employee organs, or the Democratic compromise that insists such harvesting be limited to duplicated organs.


  150. (P.S. Democrats are not further right on all social issues; but they certainly are on many things like education and aid to the poor…)


  151. Tony C,

    Yuck … but then perhaps that’s the real goal … create a huge class of organ donors so that the corporate bosses may live forever … it would make a good movie …


  152. Tony C, I don’t think democrats are to the right of Reagan democrats on much of anything. Reagan appealed to these Reagan democrats with his attacks on welfare. Don’t you remember how he blamed the “welfare queens” for the nation’s problems?


  153. SwM,

    The only thing for which I thank Reagan is that he provided the cover for all those southern democrats to jump over to the republicans after LBJ “betrayed” them with Civil Rights.

    We are still stuck with the blue-dogs who are often to the right of Reagan on certain issues, such as immigration and taxes.


  154. on 1, March 15, 2011 at 1:34 pm Swarthmore mom

    Blouise, Gabbie Gifford was one of the few blue dogs that survived the 2010 elections and she was shot in the head.


  155. @Swarthmore: True, I am wrong to claim that. What I remember is Reagan and the Republicans did increase taxes every year, and the talk about “welfare queens” was all about fraud on the part of welfare recipients (which I was convinced at the time was rampant, but I now think I was fooled by spin). It wasn’t a discussion of whether we should have welfare at all; and the Reagan Republicans weren’t discussing whether we should cut Social Security or Medicare. We now have Democrats saying we can’t afford these entitlement programs, including Obama through his deficit commission.

    So there are some modern Democrats to the right of some Reagan Republicans, but I agree it is a pretty small overlap. Perhaps what I am thinking is much weaker; that most Reagan Republicans (including Reagan) were to the left of modern Republicans.


  156. Otteray Scribe:

    “Maury the Troll: I am middle class as are most or all the people here. How do you account that most or all would identify themselves as progressive, liberal or both and none of us are trying to destroy ourselves? Never mind trying to come up with an answer. It might cause you to throw you back out trying to pull something out of your nether parts.”

    It is really pretty simple, you are dumb as dirt and havent done much with your lives. So you want a hand out and payback from people who are more succesful than you are. Fear is also another component of progressivism, fear of having to fend for yourself. There are a bunch of other things I could say but that about sums it up-stupidity, jealousy and fear. A liberal trifecta.


  157. on 1, March 15, 2011 at 7:06 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury discovered my ugly secret! OMG, I am dumb as dirt! Thirteen years of university education down the drain! Who knew? I think I will go get drunk now because Maury the Troll has pronounced me dumb as dirt. Since I have done nothing with my life, maybe I better see if I can get all those cases I worked on that ended up in front of the SCOTUS reversed, because the Court relied on my findings. What a waste. It is a terrible thing for your secrets to be discovered.


  158. Swarthmore mom
    1, March 15, 2011 at 1:34 pm
    Blouise, Gabbie Gifford was one of the few blue dogs that survived the 2010 elections and she was shot in the head.

    =================================================

    Of course, you are right. I was thinking more locally … we have quite a few of them in Ohio at the state level.


  159. SwM,

    Here the blue dogs are a special problem when it comes to healthcare.


  160. Blouse,
    I second your comment about the Blue Dogs and how they have held the Dems back. We need to weed them out.


  161. on 1, March 15, 2011 at 8:18 pm Anonymously Yours

    Well OS,

    I must confess my total inane ignorance in higher education….Lest we be heathens…for tomorrow is a new day…did I learn anything the time that I was awake…if I did not..then the day was a loss…and then we perish or is that we become republicans….I am feeling the heat….


  162. Michigan activists plan to keep Capitol open all night
    by Joan McCarter forDaily Kos
    March 15, 2011
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/15/956708/-Michigan-activists-plan-to-keep-Capitol-open-all-night

    Excerpt:
    Michigan progressive activists are planning to take over the Capitol building in Lansing today, and keep the building open over night to protest Gov. Rick Snyder’s radical budget.

    “The plan is to keep the capitol open over night,” says Lance Enderle, a former Democratic candidate for the 8th Congressional district. “It’s our house.”

    Enderle says the plan is to bridge Tuesday’s protest against Gov. Rick Snyder’s budget proposals to eliminate the Earned Income Tax Credit and to tax retirement pensions with Wednesday’s planned protest to challenge what opponents say is the GOP’s plan to gut the rights of organized labor and put an unfair tax burden on residents in order to give a massive tax break to businesses.

    “It is basically to keep the momentum going from today to tomorrow,” Enderle said. “This is something that impacts everyone’s lives. We are just standing up for our rights, like everyone should be doing — Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, Tea Partiers. This Emergency Financial Manager bill is a total attack on democracy and our American way of life. That effects everybody. It’s not just a partisan issue. It’s a people issue.”
    ….


  163. Elaine,

    Have I told you lately how much I appreciate your posts? Thank you


  164. @Maury: Actually, the more education one has; the more likely one is to be liberal. University professors are about the most liberal of of any group. Which is not to say they are 100% liberal, and some I know lean distinctly libertarian, but they are the least likely to be Republican.

    As for having done something with our lives; among the middle class you pretend to defend, liberals on average are better educated than Republicans, and better paid. If you believe the free market is setting the prices of private industry wages, businesses pay more for liberals than they do for conservatives.

    Even Hollywood is famously liberal, by the lights of most people, the group of entertainers attending the Oscars have done something with their lives. Perhaps that is because most acting (not all) requires expressive emotion and that requires an ability to empathize with the plight of others, a capability distinctly attenuated in Republicans, both the rich and the poor variety.

    It is why they dismiss liberals as “bleeding hearts,” their disdain for compassion and aid to people in need is a direct result of not feeling any compassion. Republican war-mongering, selfishness and consequent greed are all a direct result of their inability to give a shit about anybody outside their narrow circle of family and friends, and without that ability, they cannot comprehend that anybody outside that circle cares about them, either.

    So their world is always one of them against the world. It is Manichean (black and white): You are in their circle, or you are outside it, and therefore the enemy. Modern Republicanism in the poor can be a matter of poverty-induced stress; under existential stress everybody tends toward protective measures: Less risk, less help to others, greater knee-jerk suspicion and cynicism that produce tighter social circles. This is one of the reasons Republican leaders are always lying to instill fear, it widens their base.

    Outside of the poor, Modern Republicanism is pretty much a brain dysfunction; in extreme cases that inability to feel any empathy for the pain and suffering of others is the hallmark of sociopathy.


  165. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 8:01 am Stamford Liberal

    OS,

    “Maury discovered my ugly secret! OMG, I am dumb as dirt! Thirteen years of university education down the drain! Who knew? I think I will go get drunk now because Maury the Troll has pronounced me dumb as dirt. Since I have done nothing with my life, maybe I better see if I can get all those cases I worked on that ended up in front of the SCOTUS reversed, because the Court relied on my findings. What a waste. It is a terrible thing for your secrets to be discovered.”

    Yeah, what the hell’s wrong with you? You should emulate Maury – working his butt off everyday, trolling progressive sites, prostituting himself on behalf of the GOP and its lord and masters the Koch Bros, and posting such intelligent and insightful truths! It’s HARD WORK being a whore!!

    My, what a disappointment you must be to your parents, particularly your mother, who sacrificed nine months of her life for you! And for what? Only to spawn such a lazy bastard!

    Ungrateful, I tell ya …


  166. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 8:07 am Otteray Scribe

    Stamford Liberal: yeah, I am so ashamed. To think that Maury the Troll found us all out. The horror of it all!

    BTW, you might not want to compare Maury with whores; that is an insult to honest whores. Whores provide a service for the fee. I fail to see what useful service Maury is providing.


  167. Michigan passes ‘financial martial law’ bill
    by Jennifer Epstein
    http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?id=593489

    Excerpt:
    Michigan legislators have approved a bill authorizing state-appointed emergency financial managers to break union contracts that struggling cities and school districts have with their workers.

    Following up on the state Senate’s passage of the bill last week, the House passed the bill 62-48 on Tuesday, sending the legislation to Republican Gov. Rick Snyder for final approval. Snyder, who asked for the expanded powers for emergency financial managers, is expected to sign the bill into law.

    Supporters say the bill gives the state a way to step into distressed municipalities and schools before they collapse. It also gives emergency financial managers broad authority to end employee union contracts, and to nullify elected boards and councils.

    The bill’s sponsor, Republican Rep. Al Pscholka, said Tuesday that it would give the state the power it needs to dig important institutions out of financial holes. “For years we have allowed cities and schools to be on the verge of bankruptcy without any intervention,” he told Reuters. “When the state finally does arrive, in many cases we find the financial records in disarray and leave emergency managers with very few good options to balance the books.”

    Republican Sen. Jack Brandenburg last week said emergency managers would be deployed only in communities that need “financial martial law.”

    Democrats, meanwhile, consider the bill part of a broader attack on public sector unions and on collective bargaining that has also been the subject of debate in Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio and elsewhere.


  168. Emergency managers bill waits for governor’s signature
    By Matt Franklin
    http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=news/local&id=8015253

    A Michigan bill that would give emergency managers the power to throw out union contracts, fire administrators and even declare bankruptcy is now waiting for the governor’s signature.

    Opponents of the measure have called it union busting while supporters say it would help struggling communities with their money problems.

    Public safety unions in the city of Flint are watching the developments in Lansing closely. It’s because Flint public safety unions have yet to reach an agreement with the city on concessions to help with a projected $17 million deficit.

    But the unions say this bill will have a far-reaching impact once signed.

    “There’s some anxiety. Nobody knows. Fear of the unknown,” said the Flint Police Sergeants Union’s Rick Hetherington.

    Hetherington says the union has offered up double-digit concessions and yet is still waiting at the bargaining table on the city. His concern grows as the governor prepares to sign a bill that gives emergency managers the power to alter union contracts in struggling cities like Flint.

    “My only hang up with the bill is the potential for Dayne Walling to be given the authority to go in and hatchet contracts,” he said.

    That’s because under the plan and after looking over a community’s finances, the state could then either appoint an emergency manager or give the power to one person.

    And with little cash flow and even the threat of not making payroll next month, the city of Flint is being looked at closely.

    “I look at it as without a doubt union busting,” said Flint Firefighters Union President Raul Garcia.

    Garcia is actively working on a labor agreement as well. Just like others, he says he believes that the bill is trying to break down the American workforce.


  169. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 10:15 am Stamford Liberal

    OS,

    My deepest apologizies to all honest, hardworking whores out there.

    “I fail to see what useful service Maury is providing.”

    Consistently confirming for us what a dumbass he is and wouldn’t know an original thought if it kicked him squarely in his behind? You have to admit, there is some entertainment value there …


  170. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 10:16 am Stamford Liberal

    Elaine M,

    Kudos to you for your continued efforts!

    “Michigan passes ‘financial martial law’ bill”

    Let the lawsuits begin …


  171. @Scribe: Maury is a foil; the posters are not the only readers here, and Maury provides us the opportunity to refute the childish thinking and overt lies of Fox and Rush and crew. After that refutation, the likes of Maury either walk away and let the correct argument stand, or they wade in and prove there claims are fiction and their logic is rooted in bigoted selfish fantasies and full of hateful emotional outbursts.


  172. A description of Maury’s thinking and what comes out of his mouth:


  173. Mike S.,

    Thanks for posting that video!


  174. I posted this link on another thread, but it is worth repeating. Maury, Moar, Roam and all the other trolls and sockpuppets are perfect examples of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

    From Wikipedia:

    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to appreciate their mistakes.[1] The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority. This leads to the situation in which less competent people rate their own ability higher than more competent people. It also explains why actual competence may weaken self-confidence. Competent individuals falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning (1999) conclude, “Thus, the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others”

    Read more in this diary by blogger ‘Verbal Paintball’ on DKos.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/16/956907/-I-Wish-Stupid-People-Would-Understand-Theyre-Stupid


  175. That was a great video from Sam Seder. I miss him and Air America radio. He hit the nail on the head. What Walker and his merry band of thieves is saying and doing, is BS! Thanks Mike S.!


  176. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 11:58 am Stamford Liberal

    Mike S,

    Mucho gracias for the Sam Seder bit. Did you happen to notice one of the advertisers on the clip? University of Phoenix … which brings me to …

    Despite Budget Crisis, Arizona Lawmakers Propose Generous Tax Breaks For Subprime Schools
    For several months, Arizona has been grappling with a budget crisis, with its deficit for this year projected to be $825 million and next year’s standing at $1.4 billion. Gov. Jan Brewer (R-AZ) used the budget shortfall to cut off urgent transplant funding for sick Arizonans, some of whom died without their access to critical medical care.

    Brewer has also proposed putting a dent in her budget gap by cutting funding for state universities by 20 percent and cutting half of the state’s funding for community colleges. However, not all education providers are feeling the pain of Arizona’s budget woes. The for-profit college industry, in fact, could receive a new tax break worth millions of dollars:

    State lawmakers, who have to close a major budget gap, are considering a bill that would give University of Phoenix’s parent company as well as other companies a tax break worth millions, according to some estimates…Arizona Department of Revenue estimates that the new bill could cost Arizona $33.2 million annually in tax revenue.

    The main beneficiary of the tax break would be the Apollo Group, which owns the University of Phoenix, one of the largest for-profit colleges. As we’ve been documenting, these subprime schools make the vast majority of their revenue from the federal government, pay their CEOs huge salaries, but leave their students with crippling debt and bleak job prospects. They use intimidation and fear to recruit students, while posting profits margins of more than 30 percent.

    The University of Phoenix is actually the “granddaddy” of the for-profit college industry. It was created in 1976 by humanities professor John Sperling, who believed he could “mass produce education and run his school more like a corporation than a university.” Currently, the University of Phoenix makes 88 percent of its revenue from the federal government. It’s CEO, Charles Edelstein, was paid more than $11 million last year.

    In 2009, less than half of University of Phoenix students were paying back their loans. The school was also forced to pay $78.5 million “to settle a federal lawsuit in California alleging that compensation for Phoenix recruiters violated restrictions on incentive pay.” At a time when they are slashing their state’s education system to ribbons, Arizona lawmakers might want to rethink lavishing tax breaks onto an industry that hasn’t proven it can give students an education that’s worth the price.

    For more information, read our report, “For-profits, not students.”

    http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2011/03/15/arizona-subprime-break/

    ———————————————

    OS,

    Excellent link – thanks!!


  177. @Scribe: Ha! The less they know, the more they think they know.

    As an experimentalist in reearch, I am frequently struck by how often (at least weekly) I am confident an experiment will produce some definitive bit of information, just a YES or NO answer, only to learn, once again, a few days later, that nature can be one deviously tricky opponent. We do have many successes, but the failures really train you to question your own certainty about nearly anything. These guys, on the other hand, are erroneously certain and cannot even entertain the thought that they might be wrong.


  178. I just posted this video at another thread.

    From Sam Seder: David Gregory and the Corporate Media Love Chris Christie, Hate Social Security


  179. Thank you,

    I love Sam Seder. The only reason I joined Facebook was to support his effort to remain on Air America, but AA itself crapped out. It
    interest me that many billionaires who supposed have empathy for the people, like Buffett, Gates and Soros haven’t funded their own media outlet. Once you reach that league, those that people your environment, exert subtle changes on you that may not prevent your speaking out, but certainly seem to discourage your attempt to d anything substantial about the inequities of the world. After all,
    John D. Rockefeller, great philanthropist and Sunday School Teacher, was at the same time a murderer of many.


  180. OS,
    That is a great link to the University of Phoenix story. I wonder why the Teapublicans aren’t screaming that the CEO’s salary at Phoenix should be cut since most of it comes from Federal dollars?!!


  181. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 1:19 pm Stamford Liberal

    rafflaw,

    “I wonder why the Teapublicans aren’t screaming that the CEO’s salary at Phoenix should be cut since most of it comes from Federal dollars?!!”

    Entitlements for the work class – very, VERY bad

    Entitlements for Corporate America & For-Profit Colleges – very ,VERY good


  182. Mike S.,

    “After all, John D. Rockefeller, great philanthropist and Sunday School Teacher, was at the same time a murderer of many.”

    Some people forget that.

    IMO, a lot of that philanthropic generosity has to do “conscience” money–and it’s a way to polish their public images.


  183. @rafflaw: I think to be a Teapublican a person must be a pretty shallow thinker. I doubt they comprehend anything more than “private enterprise good, government spending bad,” and when those concepts collide their default position is to side with the rich — because they fantasize about being among them, and that leads them to sympathize with (what they imagine) the problems of their rich friends are. Even when that is against their actual self-interest.

    But of course, they also project their own petty financial concerns on their imaginary rich friends; I believe the actual ways that the rich earn, spend, and invest would seem quite alien to them.


  184. Otteray Scribe:

    in regards to Dunning-Kruger, I know my limitations. Do you?

    If you really get down to it, you all want a one way conversation with your ideas being all that matter.

    Progressive ideas are why we find ourselves in the situation we are in. You can say it was “Banksters” or the rich or businessmen. But what it really comes down to is the refusal on the part of progressives to give up trying to control the economy.

    Most economist are starting to figure it out, you cannot control an economy by writing laws in Washington, DC. It doesn’t work. No one, not even progressives are that smart.

    As far as logic goes, you first have to have the correct starting point to be able to logically tell if something is right or wrong. Your initial ideas are wrong, therefore it doesn’t matter how good your logic is, you will still be wrong on the fundamental level.

    I know it is very hard to admit that the foundation of your life is a lie, but accept it and move one. Change your thinking and join the real world where a dog chases a cat and a lion doesn’t lie down with a lamb but kills it and eats it.

    It would be nice if lions were our friends, that one video is great, but the hard fact is that a lion would eat us for lunch if it had the chance. And if the world wants us gone? Just look at Japan, we can only control things to a point. So stop trying, you will feel much better if you just live your life and don’t worry about trying to make people who don’t want to, conform to your way of looking at the world.


  185. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 2:04 pm Stamford Liberal

    Elaine M,

    “IMO, a lot of that philanthropic generosity has to do “conscience” money–and it’s a way to polish their public images.”

    Some things never change:

    An indulgence defined: “The purchase of a pardon which secured the buyer’s salvation or released the soul of another from purgatory.”

    Here’s how it worked: A person gave The Roman Catholic Pope money and God forgave him of his sins. It was a money-back-guaranteed, ticket to heaven.

    http://www.articlesbase.com/religion-articles/ticket-to-heaven-money-making-scam-set-up-by-the-early-roman-catholic-church-4073690.html

    ——————————————————

    Guess they forgot about this:

    “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
    Mark 10:25


  186. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 2:09 pm Stamford Liberal

    Maury,

    “Most economist are starting to figure it out”

    Cite sources. With links. Verifiable ones. Not from any of your Right Wing “think” tanks, either.


  187. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 2:19 pm Anonymously Yours

    I wonder what Keynes would say about the troll that smoked ….before the name change…


  188. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 2:37 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury, you have some real problems with critical thinking. I have neither the time nor energy to argue details with you, since you stick to talking points without backing them up. However, lets start with an ecological validity problem. You say, “in regards to Dunning-Kruger, I know my limitations. Do you?”

    First of all, it is ‘regard’ not “regards.” And correct grammar would have it, “with regard to,” rather than, “in regards to.” Your limited education shows in most of your posts.

    We know from research that no organism can competently study itself. That is why we have psychotherapists, to help people see themselves in ways they cannot without assistance. It is the pinnacle of hubris to say you have yourself figured out. Obviously, you do not, considering the anserine and purblind observations you make from time to time.

    Here is a link to what is considered the single best book on the subject of how to do valid and reliable research. After you have read it, get back to me.

    I have a feeling that Maury (and Moar, et al) would be like “Brittany” who wrote a one-star review that is actually rather amusing in its lack of comprehension. Students don’t want to work for knowledge anymore. It has to be spoon-fed.

    Now if everyone will excuse me, I need to get back to work.


  189. Maury,

    That’s a lot of talk–but where’s the beef?

    Many of our financial problems were precipitated by deregulation and the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act. Both Democrats and Republicans are to blame for that.

    The Subprime Mess and Phil Gramm: An Experiment in Deregulation
    Paul KieselAttorney
    by Paul Kiesel June 24, 2008
    http://losangeles.injuryboard.com/miscellaneous/the-subprime-mess-and-phil-gramm-an-experiment-in-deregulation.aspx

    In 1933, a few years following the stock market crash, Congress passes the Glass-Steagall Act, in hopes that regulating banks will help prevent market instability, particularly amongst Wall Street banks. The purpose of the act is to separate commercial banks that focus on consumers from investment banks, which deal with speculative trading and mergers.

    The Glass-Steagall Act provided the proper oversight and entity separation that would prohibit banks and other financial companies from merging into giant trusts (conflict of interests) — giant trusts or corporations being more powerful, naturally, and having the seemingly limitless capital to lobby their corporate interests, however, with a very myopic scope (particularly when it comes to factoring in potential losses — most banks, as seen in contemporary times, chose not to anticipate losses in the mortgage market; they presumed home prices would continue to appreciate).

    In 1999, former Senator Phil Gramm (who is, incidentally, Senator John McCain’s economic adviser and cochairs his presidential campaign) set out to completely gut the Glass-Steagall Act, and did so successfully, replacing most of its components with the new Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act: allowing commercial banks, investment banks, and insurers to merge (which would have violated antitrust laws under Glass-Steagall). Sen. Gramm was the driving force behind the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, as he had received over $4.6 million from the FIRE sector (Finance, Insurance and Real Estate donations) over the previous decade, and once the Act passed, an influx of “megamergers” took place among banks and insurance and securities companies, as if they had been eagerly awaiting the passage of Gramm’s Act. Everything in between Glass-Steagall and Gramm-Leach-Bliley (i.e. Savings and Loan crisis/bust) was, in large part, the incubation period for what would take place over the nine years that would follow the passage of Gramm’s Act: an experiment in deregulation.

    Shortly after George W. Bush was elected president, Congress and President Clinton were trying to pass a $384 billion omnibus spending bill, and while the debates swirled around the passage of this bill, Senator Phil Gramm clandestinely slipped a 262-page amendment into the omnibus appropriations bill titled: Commodity Futures Modernization Act. It is likely that few senators read this bill, if any. The essence of the act was the deregulation of derivatives trading (financial instruments whose value changes in response to the changes in underlying variables; the main use of derivatives is to reduce risk for one party). The legislation contained a provision — lobbied for by Enron, a major campaign contributor to Gramm — that exempted energy trading from regulatory oversight. Basically, it gave way to the Enron debacle and ushered in the new era of unregulated securities. Interestingly enough, Gramm’s wife, Wendy, had been part of the Enron board, and her salary and stock income brought in between $900,000 and $1.8 million to the Gramm household, prior to the passage of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act.

    In 2003, Gramm left the Senate to join UBS, which had acquired investment house PaineWebber due to his deregulation bill. At UBS, Gramm lobbied Congress, the Fed and the Treasury Department. During Gramm’s tenor at UBS and as a lobbyist, Congress passed the Responsible Lending Act, billed as an anti-predatory-lending measure, but was called the “Loan Shark Protection Act” by consumer advocates, as it was designed to preempt stronger state laws against anti-predatory lending. The Fed largely ignored the underlying and growing problems within the subprime mortgage/housing markets, as Bernanke famously acknowledged the housing market in April, 2007 as, “[showing] signs of softening,” but said that a “sharp slowdown,” is unlikely. Then, according to Mother Jones magazine, Henry Paulson became the Treasury Secretary in July, 2007, when, “In 2005, [at] Goldman [he] securitized $68 billion in residential mortgages and $23 billion in ‘other assets’ primarily related to CDOs,” (Mother Jones, August, 2008). With such self-interest, and a lack of the nation’s interest, we can see how this subprime mess was allowed to escalate to such great proportions.

    Some justice was served, however, this spring, as UBS became one of the subprime debacle’s biggest losers, having to write down $37 billion — the same amount as their previous four years of profits combined. UBS also made the public aware that two-thirds of its losses were due to reckless investing in collateralized debt obligations (CDOs).

    Now, Gramm has a second chance of extending his out-of-touch and ill-performing policies, as Senator John McCain appointed Gramm to be his “economic expert” and cochair of his presidential campaign, last year. Also, it is likely that if Senator McCain were to win in November, Gramm would be our next Treasury Secretary, which means more of the same deregulatory mess and the continuation of failed and insidious economic policies.


  190. Something to ponder:

    From Think Progress (3/16/2011)
    Michigan Governor’s Anti-Union Power Grab Is Unconstitutional
    http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/16/snyder-power-grab/

    Although Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker’s (R) anti-union crusade has received the biggest headlines, Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder (R) is poised to sign an even more drastic assault on working Americans into law. Yesterday, the Michigan legislature passed a “financial martial law” bill that allows Snyder to appoint “emergency financial managers” with the power to terminate collective bargaining agreements:

    Contracts & Collective Bargaining Agreements. The bill would authorize the emergency manager to reject, modify, or terminate one or more terms and conditions
    of an existing contract.

    After meeting and conferring with the appropriate bargaining representative and, if in the emergency manager’s sole discretion, a prompt and satisfactory resolution were unlikely to be obtained, the emergency manager could reject, modify, or terminate one or more terms and conditions of an existing collective bargaining agreement.

    There’s a pretty serious problem with this power grab, however — invoking it would violate the Constitution. The Constitution forbids state laws “impairing the Obligation of Contracts.” This provision provides a robust limit on a state’s ability to dissolve contracts between the government and a private party. As the Supreme Court explained in United States Trust Co. v. New Jersey, state laws impairing such contracts must be “reasonable and necessary to serve an important public purpose.”

    The bill does contain some language requiring the emergency manager and the state treasurer to determine that they are not violating this constitutional limit before a collective bargaining agreement can be blown up, but Snyder’s own budget gives the lie to any claim that an assault on working Americans is “necessary” to ensure that Michigan governments can pay their bills. Snyder proposed a massive $1.73 billion business tax cut even as he was arguing that his anti-union power grab was necessary to restore the state’s fiscal balance.

    The consequences of Snyder’s actions could be stark. If a state is free to break contracts whenever they feel like it, than no one will agree to do business with the state. Investors will refuse to buy the state’s bonds, and state contractors will demand all payments upfront out of fear that the state will accept their work and then tear up the contract requiring the workers to be paid. Creditors will charge the state enormous interest rates to secure against the risk that the state will just waive its hand and make its obligation to repay go away.

    In other words, Snyder is so determined to chip away at collective bargaining, he’s demanded a power that he cannot constitutionally use and that would drive his state into an even deeper financial hole if he ever tried.


  191. OS:

    “We know from research that no organism can competently study itself.”

    That is pure bullshit. Basically what you are saying is that we are all running around unaware of ourselves. Which is completely preposterous.

    I think I have finally stumbled upon the problem with liberals, they do not know themselves. But then that would make sense, you have to know reality to know your self. So it makes perfect sense that you wouldn’t know yourself.

    Consciousness of self comes from perceptions of reality. Since your perceiver malfunctions you would not be able to become fully conscious, like Helen Keller prior to meeting Annie Sullivan. A half savage, half human being, stumbling along in a dark fearful universe.

    Makes sense to me.


  192. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 3:10 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury:

    You could have saved us scientists a lot of time. Such as about two or three thousand years of evolving research in philosophy and science had we paid attention to you. Now we know that all those thousands upon thousands of studies are wrong, because you have pronounced them….wait for it…..”Bullshit.”

    A mind is a terrible thing to waste. When you pass on to the great beyond, how about donating your brain to science. We are very interested in knowing how a logic-tight compartment can exist inside the skull.


  193. @Maury: But what it really comes down to is the refusal on the part of progressives to give up trying to control the economy.

    I am a progressive with no desire to control the economy. My only economic desires are to prevent businesses from lying about their products, prevent them from selling unsafe products, prevent them from abusing their workers health or safety, prevent them from polluting and endangering the public’s health or safety, prevent them from ripping off their investors, prevent them from violating their contracts, prevent them from sexually or ideologically or religiously harassing their employees, prevent them from coercing their suppliers, prevent them from lobbying the government, prevent them from forming monopolies or cabals or trusts, prevent them from engaging in unfair competition (like selling beneath cost to drive a smaller competitor out of business), and prevent them from using courts and frivolous lawsuits in an attempt to suppress or bankrupt their competition. All of which are ways of avoiding having to compete on the dimensions of product: quality, price, service and exclusivity. None of that is trying to “control the economy.”

    I believe strongly in competition and customer choice. Unfortunately for businessmen (and I’ve been partners in multiple successful businesses) competing on product dimensions is very hard; so the unscrupulous resort to dirty tricks. My only interest in controlling any economic entity is to prevent it from engaging in these dirty tricks, because doing that is, by definition, detrimental to the consumers, the workers, or society.


  194. The goof-balls will be spending what little time is left on their terms (recalls) in court defending their illegal power grabs.


  195. Otteray,

    You brought Dan Quayle to mind when you wrote, “A mind is a terrible thing to waste.”

    Sorry that the second video isn’t a better quality.


  196. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 3:28 pm Otteray Scribe

    In the case of Dan Quayle and our trolls, the better phrase would be simply, “A mind is a terrible thing.”


  197. Dan Quayle looks pretty smart, now that we have gotten to know Sarah Palin!


  198. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 4:18 pm Stamford Liberal

    Maury,

    I’m still waiting:

    “Most economist are starting to figure it out”

    Cite sources. With links. Verifiable ones. Not from any of your Right Wing “think” tanks, either.

    I say you are colossally full of shit … don’t you want to prove this bleeding heart liberal wrong?


  199. Protesting Governor Rick Snyder at the Michigan State Capitol in Lansing (3/15/11) – 2


  200. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 4:39 pm Swarthmore mom

    Dan Quayle’s son, Ben, ran for Congress in Arizona as a teabagger and won.


  201. “Basically what you are saying is that we are all running around unaware of ourselves. Which is completely preposterous.”

    Preposterus? You prove its truth with every comment.


  202. They should all be arrested for disturbing the peace.


  203. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 4:50 pm Anonymously Yours

    Troll, does not answer.


  204. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 4:56 pm Stamford Liberal

    Maury et al must approve:

    Topic:
    Global Warming
    Wednesday, Mar 16, 2011 13:53 ET

    How The World Works Triumph of the flat-earth Republicans
    Who cares what scientists believe? The House GOP is on the record, now and for all time: The earth isn’t warming

    By Andrew Leonard

    In this week’s most obvious serving of dog-bites-man news, the House Energy and Commerce Committee voted on Tuesday to approve a measure designed to stop the EPA from regulating greenhouse gas emissions. This was not unexpected: House Republicans declared their crusade against the EPA on Day One of the new Congress.

    But along the way, three Democrats on the committee put Republicans neatly on record by proposing three short amendments to the “Energy Tax Prevention Act of 2011.”

    Henry Waxman, D-Calif., asked Congress to concede that “warming of the climate system is unequivocal, as is now evident from observations of increases in global average air and ocean temperatures, widespread melting of snow and ice, and rising global average sea level.”

    Diana DeGette, D-Colo.’s, amendment asked Congress to accept “the scientific finding of the Environmental Protection Agency that the ‘scientific evidence is compelling’ that elevated concentrations of greenhouse gases resulting from anthropogenic emissions ‘are the root cause of recently observed climate change.'”

    Jay Inslee, D-Wash., asked Congress to accept that “the public health of current generations is endangered and that the threat to public health for both current and future generations will likely mount over time as greenhouse gases continue to accumulate in the atmosphere and result in ever greater rates of climate change.”

    Every single Republican on the committee voted against all three amendments, with the sole exception of Tennessee’s Martha Blackburn, who declined to vote on DeGette’s amendment.

    It is possible to understand how people might disagree that climate change is a threat to public health (we’ll all just start farming wheat in Siberia or northern Canada) or that humans are the main cause of rising temperatures (sunspots! natural variation!). But I still find it confounding that 31 Republicans are willing to deny, flat-out, that temperatures are rising, period. But let’s outsource this argument:

    Last spring, the nonpartisan National Academy of Sciences reviewed the available facts and declared that “A strong, credible body of scientific evidence shows that climate change is occurring, is caused largely by human activities, and poses significant risks for a broad range of human and natural systems.”

    The NAS position makes things nice and tidy. The House Republicans in charge of energy policy are unanimous in their contradiction of the findings of the United States’ most august body of scientists. As was reported last fall by National Journal’s Ron Brownstein, no other major political party in the world has staked out such a clear position.

    I hope to live long enough to see the day when the American Republican position on climate change is seen universally as the 21st century equivalent to older beliefs that the world is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth. But if that pleasure isn’t granted me, I’m pretty sure my kids will enjoy the honor.

    Andrew Leonard is a staff writer at Salon. On Twitter, @koxinga21. More: Andrew Leonard

    http://www.salon.com/news/global_warming/index.html?story=/tech/htww/2011/03/16/flat_earth_republicans


  205. @Stamford: Unfortunately, I believe Leonard’s anticipated “I told you so” will be a pyrrhic victory; he will be lucky if his kids survive “enjoying the honor.”


  206. Moar:

    I agree.


  207. Mike:

    I am aware of myself. You dont make any sense. But then liberals never do.


  208. Tony C.,
    you might be correct. If the US doesn’t take serious steps to reign in the corporations that are spewing the greenhouse gasses, the next generation will be living in a bubble, if at all.


  209. Moar:

    what brings you to this cracker factory?


  210. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 5:30 pm Stamford Liberal

    Tony C.

    “@Stamford: Unfortunately, I believe Leonard’s anticipated “I told you so” will be a pyrrhic victory; he will be lucky if his kids survive “enjoying the honor.””

    The ignorance of science by the Right is positively mind-boggling.


  211. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 5:32 pm Stamford Liberal

    Maury,

    I’m still waiting:

    “Most economist are starting to figure it out”

    Cite sources. With links. Verifiable ones. Not from any of your Right Wing “think” tanks, either.

    Come on, Maury. Can’t you take a few minutes away from chatting with your troll friend to prove me wrong?


  212. rafflaw:

    you are BSing us right? Live in a bubble? And people think I am a troll? WTF

    can you provide references for that statement? Sources, first person interviews? Scientific data?

    You have now entered the Twilight Zone. Rafflaw will be your genial host this evening, sit back and enjoy the show.

    “There is nothing in the dark that isn’t there when the lights are on.”
    Rod Serling quote


  213. @Maury: Rod Serling is wrong; what is in the dark that isn’t there when the lights are on is uncertainty.

    The reason they might be living in a bubble, if they are living at all, is to preserve the partial pressure of oxygen, which will be sorely lacking in the general atmosphere, due to the heat-induced death of the sea surface plankton that currently generate the majority of said oxygen. Which will turn the sea into a putrid rotting mass emitting another greenhouse gas, methane. But that is the Republican way; they’d slaughter the Golden Goose itself if they needed a roast for a party. Now please try to remember to use your final breath to deny that oxygen is necessary for life.


  214. Stamford:

    I am busy, go read a book. Quite frankly you bore me. Any time spent would be a waste of time and I have better things to do. but here are a couple of videos:


  215. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 5:53 pm Stamford Liberal

    Maury, et al,

    For all of the kvetching you’re doing about us evil liberals and how stupid we are, blah, blah, blah, why are you here?

    You don’t add to the conversation, you make blanket statements yet don’t cite sources (and I’m still waiting for the “most economists” verification), you post what in your mind is wittiness and I call lameness. All you’ve managed to show thus far is you have the GOP talking points and stereotypes down pat … what gives, sport? Mom’s not paying enough attention to you these days?


  216. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 6:16 pm Otteray Scribe

    SL & Tony, did either of you notice the statement by Maury that, “…in regards to Dunning-Kruger, I know my limitations…”

    He goes on to say, “That is pure bullshit. Basically what you are saying is that we are all running around unaware of ourselves. Which is completely preposterous.”

    Bad spelling and grammar aside, this is the perfect clinical example of the truth of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. The lack of awareness and obliviousness of his own ignorance and limitations is interesting to me. Drs. Dunning and Kruger would have been able to use him as a good example in a lecture. As a matter of fact, I think I will copy some of the troll statements and will incorporate them into my lecture notes. They’ll make for some good PowerPoint slides. I will be sure to give author attribution to Maury and the other trolls as appropriate.


  217. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 6:18 pm Stamford Liberal

    Maury,

    Awww … you hurt my feelings. I bore the troll. Sniff, sniff.

    Peter Schiff, the failed GOP Senate candidate – yes, he is nonpartisan.

    Murray Rothbard, founder of the John Randolph Club – yes, he is nonpartisan as well.

    In conclusion – you are colossally full of shit.


  218. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 6:20 pm Stamford Liberal

    OS,

    “As a matter of fact, I think I will copy some of the troll statements and will incorporate them into my lecture notes. They’ll make for some good PowerPoint slides.”

    PLEASE report back on the results of the lecture – should be highly entertaining :D


  219. Otteray Scribe might want to consider an entire class on the subject of Trolls and their place within today’s political culture.

    I wonder if any ambitious Political Science graduate student has considered Trolls as a possible doctoral thesis.


  220. OS:

    I will be happy to come to your classroom and you can interview me.

    Where do you teach? Clown College?

    You guys post bullshit, so I figured I can too.


  221. Blouise, Don’t you mean culture in the 1800’s?


  222. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 6:47 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury and anyone else that might be interested; I no longer teach at a university. I am a consultant and people pay me to come and give lectures for continuing professional education.

    And for our trollish fan club, be reminded there is an old adage that if you have the facts, argue the facts. If you do not have the facts, dazzle them with bullshit and attack those whom the facts favor. There is a Latin phrase for that kind of attack: Ad hominem.

    We know from our forensics classes that when an opponent is forced into resorting to logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks, we have won the debate.

    The trolls, in their many iterations, ought to know by now there is no chance they will win an argument here. If they go over to RedState, I am sure they will be welcomed to the echo chamber.


  223. @Scribe: I did notice that; what I thought was funny is that he doesn’t understand the premise: It seems to me the whole thesis of Dunning-Kruger is that individuals at both ends of the spectrum have an innacurate view of themselves, and thus their abilities and limitations.

    Of course anybody that thinks liberals are greedy bastards is so confused as to be nearly beyond hope; I don’t think Maury can comprehend that I (and many other liberals) would happily vote for policies to improve schools, infrastructure, health and safety that would impose significantly higher taxes on my income than I currently pay. I think he just can’t get past his greed, even if the extra taxes would not be imposed on the middle class at all.


  224. Otteray Scribe:

    I believe, if memory serves, you and yours were the ones using the ad hominems. I just ramped it up.

    Well this isnt forensics pappy and logic has nothing to do with what you and others write here.

    But I can do logic like most of you do:

    Otteray Scribe is a human being, all human beings are immortal, therefor Oterray Scribe is immortal.

    That is how liberals practice logic, their main premise is wrong but there logic is correct. You need more than logic big boy.


  225. Well said Tony C.
    OS,
    Thanks for a well reasoned response and to a good suggestion that our “friends” should go visit a site that is actually used to ad hominem attacks.


  226. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 7:35 pm Stamford Liberal

    OS and Tony C.,

    What rafflaw said


  227. Tony C:

    I understand just fine.

    If you wish to pay extra taxes, by all means send them in voluntary. Or are you too greedy to do so?

    You guys talk a good game but when the rubber meets the road you have to be forced, just like everyone else, to pay taxes. And many of you, Charlie Rangel and Turbo Tax Timmy come to mind, evade paying taxes.

    Actually they have done studies that contradict what you say, apparently conservatives give far more time and money to charities than liberals do. You can do the research yourself. So don’t pat yourselves on your collective back just yet. Smugness is very unbecoming.


  228. blouise:

    “Otteray Scribe might want to consider an entire class on the subject of Trolls and their place within today’s political culture.

    I wonder if any ambitious Political Science graduate student has considered Trolls as a possible doctoral thesis.”

    Leave it to a lib to post.


  229. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 8:00 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury sez: “Well this isnt forensics….”

    ***************************************************

    It took a minute for that to sink in. Maury has no idea what forensics are. That is the only explanation for that comment. He does not know what ‘forensics’ means!

    Troll tries to debate on a legal blog and has no idea of the root word. I wish BIL were better and online. He would get a kick out of this.

    Oh, and by the way, “isnt” (sic) is spelled ‘isn’t.”


  230. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 8:07 pm Stamford Liberal

    OS,

    “He does not know what ‘forensics’ means!”

    Lol – did you really expect him to understand the script he’s paid to type?


  231. Tony C.: “@Maury: Rod Serling is wrong; what is in the dark that isn’t there when the lights are on is uncertainty.”

    Good stuff man, I am so happy you visited this blawg and decided to hang around; I enjoy your postings immensely.


  232. Maury,
    I guess you didn’t understand my point. If the greenhouse gasses continue to be unregulated, the resulting damage to the environment will make it difficult to live without some protection. The protective ozone is being depleted and without it, we are all in trouble. Even you.


  233. rafflaw,

    Perhaps I seemed a bit caustic but I was more than half serious. Political dirty tricksters have been around since the dawn of man … I’m certain there was a guy receiving pay for claiming that “fire” was the devil’s creation at the behest of the Cave Restaurant owner who specialized in raw mastodon.

    But the emergence of “trolls” in our political culture is notable. What sort of personality accepts such work? How much of his/her own personality is revealed through the give and take of real-time posting? How effective are the efforts and/or are there certain efforts more effective than others?

    What are the physical manifestations of employment? Do the successful ones treat it as a 9-5 traditional job working out of an office or is it part-time work done in one’s home/library/coffhouse? What are the expectations of those who hire trolls and what is the going rate? Is there a chance for advancement … say one hires on as a troll, can one look forward to promotion to operative on the campaign trail? Or are troll duties assigned as part of another job description? Is there a contract with set hours and days? As a beginner troll, does one have a set script which can only be discarded as a skill set develops? On and on …

    Seems to me that the growing importance of the internet within the political culture creates job opportunities such as troll work and that analyzing/studying this phenomenon would help in advancing the science of politics within it’s cultural setting.


  234. Blouise,
    Maybe Maury will answer those questions? :)


  235. rafflaw,

    Who’s Maury? ;)


  236. on 1, March 16, 2011 at 9:49 pm Otteray Scribe

    Blouise, when I saw your post, I thought it was a brilliant idea. I am not sure how we could work out a research design, but solving that challenge is what makes it worthy of a doctoral dissertation rather than a senior class assignment or Master’s thesis.


  237. Blouise,
    I am sorry, maybe I should have said roam or moar or David Koch.


  238. Otteray Scribe,

    Bingo … candidates are always looking for new ideas and, in my opinion, the emerging role of trolls is an important aspect of modern day politics and a natural unfolding of the on-line medium in politics. I suppose, with the proper tweaking, it could also be a topic germane to a social-sciences’ candidate.

    Back in 1993, e-marketing was an unknown, brave new world. Only a few young business grads were able to talk their new bosses into taking a chance and entering the new medium.

    A doctoral thesis on the subject could have gone a long way in helping to save the newspaper industry from the limited view it had concerning the “internet” vis a vie their working business model.


  239. Blouise’ mention of employing trolls started me to thinking. I reflected on this for a while and came to the conclusion that getting paid is the only logical explanation for the troll behavior patterns. Notice a couple of things. Maury seems to have at least two personas. One spells reasonably well and makes fairly articulate statements. The other has a serious spelling and grammar problem, and the statements are either incoherent or they are ugly ad hominem attacks with juvenile name calling. Take this afternoon and evening, for example. This was the inarticulate and uneducated sounding Maury.

    Now, what would it take to get someone to hang around to be ridiculed, made to look silly in front of the whole Internet, and generally leaving one sputtering impotently? It could not possibly be due to the fact he “believe” what he is posting, because he has yet to make a coherent argument. He posts videos of discredited winger talking heads and quoting the despicable Thomas Sowell. He also quotes unoriginal talking points that are easy to find with anti-plagiarism software, but no original ideas or thoughts. This cannot really be fun for the troll, so money is the only logical explanation. Frankly, in the case of Maury, if if I were David Koch I would want my money back.


  240. OS,
    I think our friends must be getting paid. No evidence,but who would use multiple on line personas if they were not getting paid.
    Blouise,
    Trolls are just the Internet generation’s version of Watergate’s rat f cking squad that made a living help CREEP elect Nixon again.


  241. rafflaw,

    Yes … it was Sagretti I was thinking of but … the Sagretti’s of those days still exist today (O’Keefe, perhaps)… Trolls are a different animal, some similarities to the Sagretti’s but some very big differences and there in is the validity of a thesis.


  242. Blouise,
    Have fun with the thesis.


  243. raff, not just multiple personas, but the weird part is multiple people using the SAME persona. That smells like paid efforts to disrupt discussions and threads.

    Over at some of the progressive blogs like Daily Kos, Trusted Users (TU) can see a ‘hide’ button under each comment. If the comment advocates violence or is clearly a troll or sockpuppet, it is open season. Two hide ratings on a comment will hide it from public view unless some idiot uprates it. If that happens it takes about three hide rates to offset each uprate. TUs can still see it, but no one else can. This is an excellent form of community moderation. The trolls show up, get a lot of comments hidden and the autoban machine smites them. That takes care of the problem, and it is a democratic fix. You do not get hidden or banned just for being disagreeable. Advocating violence, sexism, and antisocial comments will draw hide ratings like flies. Same for unsubstantiated conspiracy theories and other trollish behavior.


  244. Otteray Scribe,

    A few months ago a troll inadvertently revealed him/herself and it was discovered that the personality posing as “reasonable” had another most vicious personality that used a lot of porn references and hate speech. I suspect that particular poster also had a “religious right” personality and probably several others that I didn’t catch.

    It was then that I became interested in the phenomenon of trolldom and its impact on political discourse on a free speech site.

    I also became interested in the counter-use of Trolls as a means to clarify one’s message … something which regulars on this site do with increasing sophistication.


  245. OS,
    With a hide button, we would miss out on a lot of fun!


  246. rafflaw
    1, March 16, 2011 at 11:56 pm
    Blouise,
    Have fun with the thesis.

    =======================================

    Not me, baby … I’m a musician … a lover of all things rosy … besides, I have enough to do following everybody’s links, making good use of Elaine’s syllabus, and studying the material mespo assigns … not to mention worrying about Buddha’s health.

    If I’m not careful, I’ll burn out at the youthful age of 65. Theses (plural?) are for the very young!


  247. raff, nah, we would all have TU status and could still see the comments and make fun of the troll. You would have to see it to believe some of the response comments to trolls once the thread is safely hidden. That is one beauty of nested threads. When the parent comment is hidden, then all the responses to that comment and discussion about it is hidden from public view as well. Which, I might add, can be a Good Thing!


  248. Blouise, I am not sure what you mean when you say, “…counter-use of Trolls as a means to clarify one’s message…”

    Could you expand on that a bit? I think I know what you mean, but am not completely sure.


  249. Blouise,
    You do a great job on all of those “jobs”!
    OS,
    there are a lot of times I wish the stuff I say is hidden from view! I think the Irish comes out in me.
    Have a great St. Patricks Day tomorrow!


  250. It’s a new subject so old buzz words don’t necessarily fit.

    Appearing to take the Troll seriously, even though what he/she types is ridiculous, and answering with reasoned argument thus countering the Troll’s intent to disrupt by using the Troll’s challenge as an opportunity to clarify, hone, sharpen, and/or simplify one’s own argument and/or advertise one’s own political philosophy.

    Come on … a favorite teaching tool …

    Then there are those who take the direct approach which is to tell the Troll he/she is nuts and follow up with the reasoned argument etc.

    In either case (and a few styles I haven’t mentioned),it is a counter-use of the Troll’s intent and if I were a really smart operator, I would invent a Troll or two in order to facilitate such a conversation.

    Many, many avenues down which a thesis could travel.


  251. Sorry … forgot to address that last post to Otteray Scribe

    I’m tired … good night


  252. Otteray Scribe:

    “We know from research that no organism can competently study itself.”

    I still say that is bullshit. Now I might agree that a therapist may give you some insight, but then a friend can also provide some insights as well.

    But generally speaking, human beings have been pretty good at studying themselves, the medical profession is an example. Now a dog or cat or other lower level organisms are incapable of self study as most if not all are unaware they are individuals. Which is the first distinction which must be made in order to study oneself.

    So what you are saying is that humans are no better than lower level animals. And you are also saying you do not distinguish yourself from others, you have no sense of self nor individuality.

    For a liberal to articulate such a profound admission of their basic world view is interesting. It is generally in keeping with their actions. Namely their belief in the collective and their profound hatred for individual achievement. Many also see no difference among men nor between man and the lower animals. They also tend to be morally ambivalent, making no distinction between cultures or groups of people.

    Cutting heads off is no different to them than having a prisoner wear underwear on his head.

    Thanks for the insight.


  253. Otteray Scribe:

    “The trolls show up, get a lot of comments hidden and the autoban machine smites them. That takes care of the problem, and it is a democratic fix.”

    that is your example of democracy in action and what you want for society at large, a nice neat censor button to extinguish competing or opposing ideas. You libs really like democracy don’t you. Mob rule with you in control, yep that is about right based on what gets posted here. Scratch under the surface of a lib and what do you find? A big totalitarian who wishes to control that which he cannot understand (and by his own admission of not being able to competently study himself). Bloody friggin marvelous, an entire cadre of commissars who do not have a clue.

    Your dislike for Thomas Sowell says it all. One of the finest intellectuals of our era and you dismiss him as if he were gum on your shoes. I bet you love Walter E. Williams as well.

    Are you a racist Otteray? Dr. Sowell is a black man, so you must be a racist. I am, according to the libs, a racist because I oppose Pres. Obama’s ideas. So you must be a racist too.


  254. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 7:51 am Otteray Scribe

    Good morning Maury. I see we have the persona this morning who can spell and put together coherent sentences. Your post, declaring “BS” regarding insights is very interesting. As I said before, it is the perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, named after the researchers who first published their findings on the subject. Charles Darwin was aware of this phenomenon long before Justin Kruger and David Dunning gave their names to it. Darwin observed, ‘Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than knowledge.’

    There was an interesting article published in Psychology Today that discussed the phenomenon in readable language.

    Research, replicated in many studies show this finding: “Bottom performers tended to overestimate their performance by roughly 30%; a general pattern that has been replicated many times over since.” By making wildly inaccurate claims, unsupported by facts or citations, but made with the utmost self-confidence, is an excellent clinical example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect

    http://boingboing.net/2010/05/12/confident-dumb-peopl.html


  255. Otteray Scribe:

    you make me laugh. This isnt a scientific venue pappy. If you asked me a question about nuclear physics or medicine or any of a host of subjects, I would say straight up I have no knowledge of that field.

    But I really dont need too much knowledge to have an opinion now do I.

    That appeal to authority makes you look pretty lame. How do you know Dunning – Kruger is correct since you stated an organism is incapable of competently studying itself, how could it be competent to study others? Please explain that to me Dr. Scribe.

    Who has studied Dunning-Kruger to make sure they are competent?


  256. Otteray Scribe:

    You do know that there is a lot of uncertainty in Dunning-Kruger? Namely how do you know you are competent? Or how do I know you are competent?

    Dunning-Kruger is self-contradictory. How do they know they are competent? How do they know what they have observed during testing is based on ignorance or on something else? Maybe it has to do with self esteem and a mechanism for survival of the ego rather than one of competency. Or any number of things, how large a sample did they take? And their premise? Kinda sketchy pappy.

    Someone who is ignorant would not know how well they did and would probably believe they did well just because they did not know any better. Kind of a catch-22 wouldn’t you say? So I don’t know how much stock I would put in Dunning-Kruger. But keep believing, if it makes you feel better.


  257. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 8:31 am Buddha Is Laughing

    “This isnt a scientific venue pappy.”

    Really.

    You don’t have a clue as to what the term “forensic” means, do you, troll? Pay particular attention to the third definition:

    forensic \fə-ˈren(t)-sik, -ˈren-zik\, adj.,

    1: belonging to, used in, or suitable to courts of judicature or to public discussion and debate
    2: argumentative, rhetorical
    3: relating to or dealing with the application of scientific knowledge to legal problems [emphasis added]

    So what kind of venue is it that you think you are in again, propagandist? Over the years, there have been quite a few regular contributors with science backgrounds. We deal with science in general and forensics specifically quite a bit around here and much to the detriment of Neocon trolls such as yourself. Being that both logic and science are tools used to seek the truth – a quality of information that justice requires to be equitable – it is only natural that logic and science are not strong suits for the propagators of purposeful ignorance and big lies but rather your natural enemies. “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

    I now return you to your natural state of illogical and unscientific self-immolation whilst I return to bed confident that my fellow regular commentators have you squarely under their logical and factual collective thumb.

    Ya amateur punk.

    Seriously, if you’re the quality of troll the Koch heads and Not-so-Breitbart’s are sending out now, they must be so desperate for staffing they are literally putting monkeys at the keyboards.

    And I bid you good day, Simian Simulation.


  258. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 8:33 am Otteray Scribe

    Maury asks: “Who has studied Dunning-Kruger to make sure they are competent?”

    **********************************************

    Once again, our friend falls into a logical fallacy trap. This line of argument is called ‘Burden of Proof’ fallacy. The Burden of Proof fallacy also is inclusive of the ‘Appeal to Ignorance’ fallacy. No, I am not kidding. There is actually a logical fallacy called ‘Appeal to Ignorance’ (e.g., Ad Ignorantiam). I do not think any further comment is necessary.

    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html


  259. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 8:37 am Otteray Scribe

    Good morning BIL. Hope you are feeling better. Good to have you here to help out, although dealing with the trolls is sometimes the verbal equivalent of poking a dead body with a stick.


  260. @Maury: If you wish to pay extra taxes, by all means send them in voluntary. Or are you too greedy to do so?

    My wife and I do, actually, pay higher “taxes,” about 25% of the size of our actual annual tax bill, in the form of contributions to local causes we think serve the community. We won’t support national charities because I believe any charity with a CEO earning over $90K is corrupt. I feel it is high hypocrisy for a CEO sacrificing nothing financially to implore me to sacrifice financially.

    However, it is possible to find strictly local charities that are run by volunteers and are not conning us; and my wife and I have our worthy causes that help the poor that we think should be helped by the government but are ignored, because they are politically powerless.

    Probably my more significant contribution to society is working as a full time researcher. My salary is 40% of what I was earning as a consultant; and about 30% of what my same-age friends are earning today. It is also about 30% of what I could be earning today: I did a part-time gig with a former client a few years ago, and charged them the full going rate. They paid it for the nine months it took me to get their project off the ground, and are very happy with their results and still using them.

    So financially speaking, I think it is fair to consider the difference between my current income and what I could be earning a 70% contribution to the welfare of others. The caveats are that it is voluntary, I enjoy it infinitely more than my consulting work or doing nothing at all, and it imposes little if any financial hardship on me.

    HOWEVER, I believe your larger point is about coercive taxation. Coercive taxation is a necessity to avoid rewarding selfishness.

    In humans, any behavior one rewards is increased, if the humans can find any way to increase it. If taxes are not coercive, the selfish will not contribute, but will benefit indirectly from the charitable. They will take advantage of the free education, of the free healthcare, of the free security provided at the federal, state and local level, the free infrastructure, the clean water and air, the safe, plentiful and cheap food, and the free social services like counseling and psychiatric services and cheap pharmaceuticals. The selfish would leech on the charitable.

    As a result, the voluntary taxes would be high, and virtually nobody is willing to sacrifice 100% of their income to charity, so the volunteers will cut back. That would put more pressure on other volunteers; they will cut back, until eventually the volunteers resent the free riders so much they stop their donations altogether. Voluntary taxation is an unstable system; the feedbacks amplify until chaos ensues. Free riders will destroy the system by taking and using more than they give.

    Consider a simple hypothetical: What if we suddenly paid for all local police services only by voluntary, anonymous contribution? Starting from the current state of affairs, most people would not contribute (they’d be free riders), and we’d have to fire most of the police and staff. Crime would run rampant. Criminals would go unpunished, and since they are by definition getting something for nothing, their behavior would be amplified. They would start robbing and killing anybody they suspected of aiding or informing the police. This would continue until the criminals became the police, Mafia style, collecting vigorish (coercive taxes) for “protection” which will increase until they reach the maximum level possible before people would rather fight and die than pay. That would be, in essence, slavery.

    The solution is simple; instead of letting criminals enslave us, demand that everybody pay a fair share for protecting everybody.

    What is a fair share? I have two thoughts on this. First, I think it is proportional to how much they have to lose; just like a fire insurance premium is proportional to the value of the house it protects. Second, I think a fair share is also proportional to the relative financial pain it produces. $1000 to me causes zero financial pain. It does not change my lifestyle, what I eat, where I live, what car I drive or what toys I can buy. But $1000 can change all of those things for a single mother earning minimum wage. That is why I believe progressive coerced taxation is the right and fair thing to do: What is “fair” isn’t a fixed amount, or a fixed percentage, is is equal relative sacrifice.

    I also think that everybody benefits, including the rich, from living in a society where nobody is prevented from reaching their potential due to a lack of funds to pursue the necessary training or education, or a poverty-induced lack of nutrition or health care, or a lack of physical security in their neighborhoods and schools and where they live, work and shop. I think that a strong infrastructure of roads, bridges, rail, electricity, water, sewage, communications, law enforcment and now Internet access benefit everybody.

    I do not have a problem with some people having one million times the assets of others, or multi-millionaires living like kings in palaces while others live in a third-floor walkup. It really does not bother me, as long as the riches were earned honestly. I don’t have a problem with big profits, if the consumers are not being coerced or threatened with their life or being given a phony choice between paying up or dying in pain and misery. I am not a socialist, but I also do not believe in self-made success. I believe the people that rise from the middle class to the top of the financial heap in America owe the lion’s share of their success to the society that nurtured them, the law enforcement that protected them, the federal agencies that tried to keep them safe from poisoning and electrocution and building collapse and lethal mechanical failures, the public schools that educated them long before they earned even $1000 by their own talent. Success is a product of both the individual, in their talent and persistence and work efforts, and the society that provided an environment where those qualities could matter. In all fairness both should be rewarded by the profits of that partnership.


  261. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 9:55 am Stamford Liberal

    BIL,

    “Ya amateur punk.

    Seriously, if you’re the quality of troll the Koch heads and Not-so-Breitbart’s are sending out now, they must be so desperate for staffing they are literally putting monkeys at the keyboards.

    And I bid you good day, Simian Simulation.”

    My feet are doing a happy dance right now – hope you’re not away for too much longer!

    —————————————————-

    OS,

    “dealing with the trolls is sometimes the verbal equivalent of poking a dead body with a stick”

    lol


  262. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 10:09 am Anonymously Yours

    The Buddha’s Back in Town…. That ought to wretch it up a notch maury…Good luck…


  263. Actually, I mispoke. Our contributions last year totalled about 10% of our IRS taxes, not 25%.


  264. Yea! Buddha is back!


  265. Blouise,

    I really think you’ve made important points with respect to our current Troll(s). We do owe him thanks for his lingering here and for his metaphoric “Zieg Heil” to the cons party line with unswerving obedience. He has even by using “libs,” shown us the way to distinguish true conservatives, from the phony fuedalism of his Masters and Mistresses (S/M usage, but really a comment on his need to be dominated by his perception of leadership)upon whom his analistic proclivities are lavished. He and they should heretofore be referred to as “cons.” Cons, with its’ varied connotations does aptly describe, on many levels, the utter lack of humanity, morality and ethics of those he slavishly supports. It would also give us the ability to distinguish this gang from true conservatives, who indeed can be persons of value and values.

    In responding to this con, by actually applying knowledge and logic in opposition to his slavish drivel,
    we do hone our skills and sharpen our arguments, while providing ourselves with valuable concepts and information. It helps us to further develop the skills we need to respond to these attacks on our liberty. I find this thread to be not only a learning experience, but also a buttress for my beliefs. While there have been many contributors I would especially like to point out Tony C., OS, SL, yourself and Elaine (Our Blogger) for great reading, links and food for thought.

    It is in this vein that I extend congratulations to the Trolls, paid or no, for their valuable assistance in moving the discussion further. In addition thanks must also be extended to them for exposing for our delectation and delight, the workings of the unaware and
    unevolved mindset that is the hallmark of their beliefs.
    It is having a case study of self-deception and denial unfolded for our edification. Bravo Trolls!


  266. Welcome Back Buddha,
    I hope you are feeling better. Maybe a little St. Patricks Day cheer will get you on the mend!!


  267. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 11:47 am Stamford Liberal

    Idiot:

    An idiot, dolt, or dullard is a mentally deficient person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot

    Michigan Dems charged in fake Tea Party scheme

    By Justin Elliott

    Excerpt:

    This one does not look good for the Democratic Party in Michigan: Two county-level party officials have been hit with felony charges in an alleged scheme to put bogus Tea Party candidates on the ballot to draw votes away from Republicans. (Via Jim Geraghty.)

    Former Oakland County party chairman Michael McGuinness and former county operations director Jason Bauer were each charged with perjury, forgery, and another violation called false swearing. The Detroit Free Press explains the alleged scheme:

    The indictment alleges that the pair attempted to place two county commission candidates, Aaron W. Tyler and Ruth Ann Spearman, and a state senate candidate, Johnathan M. Young, on the ballot without the candidates’ knowledge. The two men forged the signatures on the affidavit of identity and falsely swore under oath to qualify them to run, the indictment says.

    A Free Press investigation last summer found that Bauer notarized petitions for a dozen tea party candidates statewide but Bouchard and Cooper couldn’t say if any additional charges would be brought in connection with other races.

    Even worse for these two guys: the county prosecutor is a Democrat, so there will be no arguing that this is a partisan hit job.

    http://www.salon.com/news/politics/2010_elections/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/03/17/dems_tea_party_charges


  268. Stamford,
    It may depend on who the Democrat is. Didn’t Bayh just take a job with Sly Fox News?


  269. Buddha,

    A little Swedish Chef to bring a smile to your green face:


  270. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 12:01 pm Stamford Liberal

    rafflaw,

    “Stamford,
    It may depend on who the Democrat is. Didn’t Bayh just take a job with Sly Fox News?”

    !! That’s right! That little turd did just become FAUX token “liberal, didn’t he?!”

    Good point, but still doesn’t do the citizens of Michigan any service. I say, leave the slimeball tactics to the GOP. It’s the only way they know how TO do anything. It’s not like they have a record to run on …


  271. @Stamford: If true, these are more than idiots, they are actual traitors to Democracy. A great deal of the problems caused by both sides is due to this kind of thinking; that if you can’t get your way fairly then slander, dirty tricks and crimes are justifiable.

    Our political parties have become religions, they don’t have to make any sense anymore. That is the new standard we are seeing at every level, from cities to states to the nation: Fuck the Constitution, fuck the laws, fuck the people, fuck civil rights, fuck the economy, fuck national security, fuck science and fuck the truth; my tribe must win and your tribe must lose no matter what it takes or who gets hurt or killed.


  272. Mike Spindell,

    The beauty of this thread, like others before it, is contained within the words posters choose to explain the concepts in which they believe or to which they subscribe.

    Buddha, yourself, Tony C., and Otteray Scribe are elegant. Then there are those of us who choose the pithy route or the caustic. There are those who encourage the conversation by cheering or asking a pointed question or praising and highlighting a particular post.

    And then there is Elaine who, in my opinion, has demonstrated through posting her real love and dedication to the art of teaching.

    Together and without off line conferencing, what was meant to disrupt or bring negativity to the discussion becomes the springboard for positive and thoughtful conversation, and learning.

    And, of course, we get to call a Troll and his/her employers all kinds of nasty names … :twisted:


  273. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 1:14 pm Stamford Liberal

    Tony C,

    Well said, sir. While politicans are no longer on the floor of Congress beating each other over the head with their walking sticks or meeting outside for a duel, they seem to feel that the whoever flings the most poo that sticks to the wall, is the winner, ignoring that it is the rest of us who must clean the wall after they leave.

    They don’t care – it’s all about who has most power, and who has the most money.


  274. and then there is rafflaw … his role is pivotal and quite subtle for there is a deep kindness woven throughout his posts … 8)


  275. Speaking of pithy … where is HenMan … me wonders if he has become “The Phantom of the Wisconsin Statehouse” … I don’t know, I kinda see him as a tenor.


  276. Blouise,

    Better a tenor than a tenther!

    ;)


  277. Blousie,
    Thanks for including me in that august company! You are right about HenMan. I haven’t seen a post from him in awhile.
    Elaine,
    A tenor is much, much better than a Tenther!


  278. HenMan lives on another thread … all is well in my world.


  279. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 4:58 pm Stamford Liberal

    “HenMan lives on another thread … all is well in my world.”

    lmao


  280. Tony C:

    Like I said before, you have got to start with the right premise to be able to apply logic.

    Now I will admit based on your premise, your logic is correct. But your premise is faulty. Ergo your logic is faulty.


  281. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 9:00 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury, your statement is internally inconsistent. You say that Tony’s logic is correct, but that he is being illogical by using what you call an incorrect premise. As a logician, I am here to tell you that you cannot have it both ways. It is either/or, not both. In short, your argument is illogical.

    As for the premise you say is wrong, that is a fallacy of argumentium sans evidence. What is the wrong premise, and why is it wrong? Lets see the evidence on exactly why it is wrong. You cannot just plunk down a blanket statement that the premise (what premise, or which one) and is wrong (wrong compared to what).


  282. on 1, March 17, 2011 at 9:05 pm Anonymously Yours

    OS,

    Why waste your breath upon Maury…..he is not worth the time and or effort…


  283. AY, as Blouise said: “Together and without off line conferencing, what was meant to disrupt or bring negativity to the discussion becomes the springboard for positive and thoughtful conversation, and learning.”

    The Maury’s of the world, or this blawg at least, are really just opportunities.


  284. @Maury: Which premise? That society nurtured you? That your parents (or caregivers) took advantage of free public services to get you to this point?

    We can look at any number of other countries, but let us look at Afghanistan, it is a foreign culture and society we now know more about than I ever cared to know. I don’t see a lot of secretaries and salesmen driving their Honda Accords around there, or people flocking to Afghanistan with aspirations of living the “Afghanistan Dream.” Nobody is rising from obscurity to become a pop star, or start Google, or compete in the Olympics.

    In America, success is normal because success is easy. What makes it easy is our infrastructure, and specifically our free to all infrastructure, like public schools, police, roads, courts, and health and structural safety. These are what make food safe and cheap: If every highway from the farm to your table were a for-profit toll road, your food alone would cost ten times as much as it does.

    Americans are a product of the American society. I do not think the average American fetus, at inception, is any different than the average Afghani fetus at inception. Claiming otherwise seems to me like racism or bigotry. It may seem like a strange place to have to begin, but societal infrastructure from that beginning will influence the future success of that fetus, and even influence whether it survives at all.

    For the American fetus: Easy access to inexpensive nutrition for the mother, emergency healthcare if needed, pervasive and free (and secular) expert science-based counseling on monitoring and managing the pregnancy, literate and educated parents, a lack of parental abuse, a fair understanding of childhood development (both physically and neurologically), the survival of the mother, protection from crippling or fatal diseases: That is the bright future of the average American fetus, thanks to American society and free public infrastructure.

    The future of the average Afghani fetus is much less bright: Not due to any native deficiency in intellectual power, or artistic talent, or athletic talent or business talent; but because the Afghani society does not provide the tools or environment or the education for any of those raw powers to be developed or exercised.

    Speaking for myself, I rose from the lower middle class to the upper middle class. But to say I did that on my own would be like a man inheriting his father’s successful business worth a few million, born into wealth, handed a prize without a competition taking place: and then asserting after a few more years of success that he was a self-made man. It would be a lie, told by an ingrate simpleton, an imposter claiming personal credit for the heroics of others.

    In my view, any American citizen that thinks they are self-made and owe nothing to American society is similarly an ingrateful simpleton, or perhaps a selfish, immoral free rider that doesn’t want to pay the enormous debt they owe to society and chooses to lie and dismiss it as inconsequential.


  285. Otteray Scribe:

    I do not believe marxism/socialism is a viable system of government/economics. Tony C obviously does.

    I believe many services could be offered based upon user fees by those who need the service or who are smart enough to understand that paying a monthly fee for fire and police protection is a good idea. You probably will never need the protection (like insurance) but it is nice to have it. But the down side is that if your house burned down there would be no one to rebuild it for you. If you wish to take the risk, then the responsibility is on your shoulders alone. It is not shared by other individuals.

    So I disagree with his premise. But his logic is correct in defending his premise. I should think a logician would understand logic has its limits.


  286. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 8:30 am Otteray Scribe

    Maury, that model is unsustainable. User fees? Lets make all roads, even the street in front of your house a toll road. We can put a toll booth at the end of your driveway, but of course you would have to pay the salary of the toll booth operator. One simple example and we could come up with thousands, literally.

    As a matter of fact, we do pay user fees. They are called taxes.

    As for your comment that logic has its limits, not necessarily so. Just because you do not understand the complexity of logical analysis, does not mean that logic has its limits. It means that your personal (mis)use of logic has its (highly visible) limits.


  287. Tony C:

    Infrastructure is not why America is great. If you seriously believe that, then you are no better than a savage who believes the sun is drawn across the sky by a man in a chariott pulled by great horses and the earth is suppoted on the back of a giant turtle.

    I am not going to argue with a savage. It is counterproductive. The savage cannot understand and it only makes him angry when the lighter doesnt work.


  288. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 8:31 am Anonymously Yours

    But Maury has no limits and it appears not and an ounce of logic….unless it is logical to cut and paste….one interesting thing about bee’s…..regardless of how many of them in a hive…there is only one queen….all the rest of them are worker bees….drones for lack of a better word…


  289. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 8:35 am Anonymously Yours

    Maury,

    Infrastructure is…not why the US is great….You jest don’t you…stay off of the roads….don’t use the water….don’t buy anything at the store….get off of the net….place your computer aside…turn your lights off disconnect your power source…..you want to know why? All BECAUSE OF INFRASTRUCTURE…..GEEZE…are you really this dense….


  290. Tony C.,

    You’re such a savage! Maury finally found you out…and doesn’t want to play with you anymore.

    I’ll say a prayer to Zeus on your behalf and ask if he can help you to become a more civilized human being.

    ;)


  291. “And, of course, we get to call a Troll and his/her employers all kinds of nasty names … :twisted:”

    Blouise,

    That’s what I call a healthy and constructive use of rage
    at the inequities of life. :-)


  292. Otteray Scribe:

    If your premise is incorrect then your logic is incorrect. Even if it is “logically” correct, it is not correct in reality. So then what is the point of logic if it proves something that isn’t so?

    Taxes are not user fees. Because most taxes do not go to services which I use. In fact most go to social welfare programs. I will agree that a small portion are user fees for which I am grateful, roads, defense, waste water treatment, etc.

    So you see, logic does have its limits if you do not have the right premises.


  293. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 9:07 am Otteray Scribe

    Maury is so full of it that I do not even know where to start. He is so logically challenged he does not know he is logically challenged. Once again, we see an excellent clinical example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, in addition to a lack of understanding of even the most basic principles of economics.


  294. “If you seriously believe that, then you are no better than a savage who believes the sun is drawn across the sky by a man in a chariott pulled by great horses and the earth is suppoted on the back of a giant turtle.”

    One also might say that about selfish fools, who get their political philosophy from Rand, Sowell and the University of Chicago School of Economics. In other words the seriously uninformed.

    “Taxes are not user fees. Because most taxes do not go to services which I use.”

    Well it is true that you don’t directly use the military, so using your “logic” we should each pay into private military, rather than the $1.060–$1.449 trillion allotted to it in the 2011 budget. This is the legacy though of the standards set by cons like you and does represent at least as much of your taxes
    as the programs you decry. When you add infrastructure to that it comes out to more than 50%.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States

    “Infrastructure is not why America is great.”

    Your understanding of economics/government and life in general could fill a thimble.


  295. @Maury: As I stated, I do not believe in either socialism or marxism or communism. I told you why YOUR premise (user fees) doesn’t work; it is the free rider problem and that is unstable. Even your fire insurance model doesn’t work: If my neighbor refuses to pay the fire department, his burning house can burn my house. If you claim I can sue him: Not if he’s dead, or bankrupt. What shall I do, make him an indentured servant, and make that heritable so his children can pay his debt?

    If a bank is robbed and hostages are taken, do the police save those not up-to-date on their protection payments?

    Exactly what level of sociopathy must we demand from our police and firemen, to have them stand by and let children burn to death, children they could have rescued, in order to teach a lesson to homeowners about paying their vig to the police and fire departments?

    Free riders destroy your system, the police catch criminals, they cannot distinguish between criminals that committed crimes against those with “police insurance” and those without it, it is not a viable system of law enforcement, and it leads directly to class distinctions: The rich have protection, the poor have none, and as a result form their own law, and if history tells us anything, home-grown vigilantism routinely becomes corrupt and authoritarian and arbitrary.

    You continue to live in a fantasy world and deny the utility of the very society and infrastructure that sustains your life and keeps people from shooting you dead just to loot whatever few trinkets you might be carrying.


  296. Maury: “If your premise is incorrect then your logic is incorrect.”

    Wrong. A counter-factual premise does not affect the construction of the argument.


  297. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 10:05 am Stamford Liberal

    “Taxes are not user fees. Because most taxes do not go to services which I use. In fact most go to social welfare programs. I will agree that a small portion are user fees for which I am grateful, roads, defense, waste water treatment, etc.”

    Social Security – Maury will use that one day, unless he’s gleening SS benefits because he is disabled (does SS cover mental disabilities??);

    Medicare – Maury will use one day and it could be possible he’s already using Medicaid;

    EPA – Maury breathes relatively clean air and drinks relatively clean water every day;

    FDA – Maury uses medications when he is sick, eats food that is safe;

    Public schools – Unless Maury and his spawn – if any – were/are educated by private institutions;

    DOT – Enables Maury to travel the skies, tracks and roads safely;

    NPS – Maury doesn’t need to show a membership card when visiting national parks;

    Etc., etc., etc. …

    Well, folks, Maury has no concept of … anything. It truly is amazing how – it appears – Maury makes it through everyday life relatively unscathed.


  298. @Maury: I will also point out, since it is staring at me from my bookshelf, that the IBC (International Building Code) followed by all 50 states (with some addendums in areas prone to earthquake, flood, tornado and heavy snow) and in essence most modern industrialized countries, is about 85% about fire prevention and suppression. It is the reason most people do not need the fire department. It was authored here in the USA in response to builders putting up fire traps that were killing people, and people couldn’t tell without destructive inspection because the faults were buried inside the damn walls and floors and ceilings. That “free market” approach failed and the evidence was a mountain of burned bodies and dead children for decades, and fires that consumed acres of buildings and businesses. It did not correct itself. Building codes were born, and out of them grew the standardized IBC, which is updated every three years.

    That free public service of the US Government, along with pretty rigorous enforcement, has saved literally millions of people from horrific death, and is the reason, Maury, you think people don’t necessarily need a fire department. Your philosophy applied consistently would not produce a mandatory building code of any kind, and fires would not be rare. How do we know? Because that was the frikkin’ situation for a good century before we had any building codes. Your philosophy had its chance, and the vast majority of the people that experienced your fantasy disliked it enough to demand (and get) strong regulation.


  299. I never said I wanted a private military, the military would be something that is paid for by society because it benefits all of society. You could make the same case for police and fire, and roads as well.

    But as far as Free Market Economics being full of shit, I don’t think so. Now regulated markets are full of shit and we have seen the results of regulations.

    But since you are a bunch of communuts (sp on purpose) you cannot see the truth because of your red sun glasses. Workers of the world unite is all you know.

    We have seen what that has caused over the last 90 years, misery, death and destruction. You want more of it, go create your own fantasy country and leave this one alone.

    The only problem with socialism is that pretty soon you run out of others people’s money. Which we have. There isn’t anymore. All your great society dreams have led to fiscal disaster. TARP, Stimulus, Wars, all in the name of leftist philosophy. Bush was a lefty too. So was his dad.

    Maybe if they had listened to Milton or Ludwig we wouldn’t have the problem we now have.

    There are no free lunches and the goose wont produce forever. At some point she will behave as the little red hen did. She wont bake anymore bread, and then where will you be?

    The workers paradise you all want doesn’t exist in reality. Your economics are for shit and your logic is for shit as well. You are trying to prove something works that does not work in reality.


  300. Maury, “full of shit” is not an argument. Sorry. If that is the extent of your reasoning ability I truly feel sorry for you.

    Your points have been refuted one by one. Your logical mistakes have been pointed out, with links to explanations as to how you went astray.

    Your errors of introspection have been discussed at length.

    To all this, your response has been, “..full of shit..” and that those who point out your mistakes are “communuts” (sic). Wow! What a skilled debater you are.

    As I said, I pity you, and that is not snark.


  301. Stamford,
    don’t confuse the argument with facts. :)


  302. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 10:57 am Stamford Liberal

    “But since you are a bunch of communuts (sp on purpose) you cannot see the truth because of your red sun glasses.”

    Ad hominem #1 …

    ———————————————

    rafflaw,

    Lol – I know, I know. I couldn’t help myself!


  303. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 11:04 am Anonymously Yours

    Did someone drop an oil patch on this thread…..I see Maury sliding from one side to the next…..or is that soap on a marble tile floor…..


  304. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 11:10 am Stamford Liberal

    Red vs. blue: The great Midwestern backlash

    New GOP governors in Wisconsin, Ohio and Michigan are suddenly unpopular. The economy gives, and it takes away

    By Andrew Leonard

    In 2008, Barack Obama carried Michigan, Wisconsin and Ohio, three crucial Midwestern states in which he had campaigned unceasingly. Two years later, the midterm tidal wave handed monolithic control of the state legislature and governor’s mansion in each state over to Republicans. The new governors, Wisconsin’s Scott Walker, Ohio’s John Kasich and Michigan’s Rick Snyder, immediately and forcefully moved to exploit their power in pursuit of bold Republican agendas.

    We’re not just talking good old-fashioned budget-balancing mandated cuts in public services. The grandiose ambitions of Wisconsin’s Walker have been well chronicled. But Michigan’s Rick Snyder has been equally aggressive. Snyder is proposing to cut corporate taxes in Michigan by 60 percent while simultaneously hiking the percentage of state revenues raised from individual income taxes from 31 percent to 41 percent. He just signed a “financial emergency law” giving him the right to appoint emergency managers — with the legal power to arbitrarily cancel union contracts — to replace locally elected government authorities. In Ohio, Kasich plans to gut public education spending, end collective bargaining by public sector workers, sell prisons to the private sector and push through a voucher plan for charter schools.

    So now comes the backlash. Polls in each state show support for the trio of Republican governors plummeting. In Wisconsin, Democrats are counting the days until Walker is eligible for a recall, and in the meantime, pushing hard to retake control of the state Senate. On Wednesday, 5,000 protesters marched through the Michigan state Capitol — the largest protest yet in that state — and Gov. Snyder was booed by workers at a Ford Focus plant. Grass-roots resistance to Ohio’s Kasich doesn’t yet appear to have reached quite the same fever pitch, but if he ran for reelection today against his 2010 opponent, he’d get clobbered.

    As quickly as the politics of the Midwest reversed themselves, once, they are doing so again, and political observers can be excused for suffering a severe case of whiplash. We’re used to seeing the pendulum swing in the United States, but the action over the last two years — from Obama’s breakthrough to the Tea Party rebellion to Cairo-in-Wisconsin — is more reminiscent of a strobe light’s jitteriness. How to explain it?

    For some political analysts, it’s a classic case of overreach leading to buyer’s remorse. For others, it’s just some momentary turbulence that will be long forgotten by the time the next election rolls around. But this argument is hardly academic; exactly where the line gets drawn between those two poles could determine whether Barack Obama wins reelection.

    Here’s one theory that could help us lay odds on the future: Watch the unemployment rate.

    In September 2009, Michigan’s unemployment rate hit 15.3 percent — the highest in the nation. In January 2011, the rate had fallen to 10.7 percent, down from 11.4 percent on Election Day 2010. Ohio and Wisconsin never reached quite such awful heights (indeed, Wisconsin, currently at 7.4 percent, has been doing much better than most of the country), but both states have recorded steady declines in recent months.

    Although Michigan’s unemployment rate had already started dropping sharply before the midterm elections, at the time, the national mood on the economy was still very gloomy, and nowhere more so than in Rust Belt Midwestern states that have received more than their fair share of hammer blows from globalization and other long-term economic trends. Two years of one of the worst recessions in American history inflicted serious damage on incumbent Democrats at the ballot box. But five months later, the economic recovery seems much firmer — and if that continues, the citizens of Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin are going to spend less time worrying about their immediate financial circumstances and more time questioning whether they are getting what they bargained for from their newly elected leaders.

    Which poses the possibility of a serious double whammy for Republicans. They’ll get blamed for what they’ve been doing since they gained power — the overly harsh budget cuts, the crackdown on unions, the tax breaks for corporations — while the incumbent in the White House gets the credit for the improving economy.

    Election Day 2012 is still a long way off, but it’s getting closer every day, and the political heat in the Midwest is already at the boiling point. If the economy continues to improve, the backlash against the conservative agenda will grow in tandem.

    http://www.salon.com/news/the_republican_takeover/index.html?story=/tech/htww/2011/03/18/the_great_midwestern_political_seesaw


  305. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 11:14 am Stamford Liberal

    The states’ legislative sadists
    By David Sirota

    Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis once said that states are the “laboratories of democracy.” Oft repeated over time, the aphorism has helped impart legitimacy to the rough and tumble of state lawmaking. We’ve heard “laboratory” and we’ve imagined staid scientists in white coats rigorously testing forward-thinking theories of societal advancement.

    It’s certainly a reassuring picture — but there is a darker side of the metaphor. States are indeed laboratories. The problem is that today, those laboratories are increasingly run by mad scientists.

    We’re not talking about the usual Dr. Frankensteins trying to bring alive new corporate giveaways through harebrained cuts to social services (though there are those, too). We’re talking about true legislative sadists looking to go medieval on America. Behold just six of the most telling examples:

    The Anti-Life Pro-Life Act: After antiabortion Republicans in Congress tried to narrow the legal definition of rape, Nebraska Republican state Sen. Mark Christensen took the assault on women’s rights one step further with a bill to legitimize the murder of abortion providers by classifying such homicides as “justified.”

    The Let Them Eat Corporate Tax Cuts Act: As poverty rates and hunger have risen, so, too, have corporate profits. The Georgia Legislature’s response? Intensify the inequity with a bill to create a regressive sales tax on food that would then finance a brand-new corporate tax cut.

    The Demoralize the Workforce Act: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker didn’t just threaten to deploy the National Guard against state workers unless they accept big pay and pension cuts. Apparently, that was too Kent State and not enough Ludlow Massacre for him. So he pressed to statutorily bar those workers from ever again collectively bargaining.

    The Child Labor Act: Missouri state Sen. Jane Cunningham’s proposal to eliminate child labor laws would allow corporations to employ any kid under 14 and would terminate restrictions on the number of hours that kid can be forced to work. The legislation is proof that when Tea Party ideologues refer to “the ’50s,” some of them aren’t referring to the 1950s — they are referring to the 1850s.

    The Obesity and Deficit Encouragement Act: Colorado exemplifies America’s childhood obesity epidemic and its budget crisis. The state’s childhood obesity rate grew at the second fastest rate in the country, and its $1.2 billion budget gap is threatening the state’s already underfinanced schools. Yet, despite the U.S. Department of Agriculture showing that higher soda taxes would drive down obesity, and despite such a levy raising much-needed public revenues, Colorado’s newly Republican House is pushing legislation to create a special budget-busting sales tax exemption exclusively for soda.

    The Endorsing Your Own Demise Act: Between trying to legalize hunting with hand-thrown spears and pressing to eliminate education requirements for those seeking the office of state superintendent of schools, Montana’s Republican lawmakers are also considering legislation to officially endorse catastrophic global climate change. That’s right, in the face of a Harvard study showing that climate change could destroy Montana’s water supplies, agriculture industries and forests, state Rep. Joe Read’s bill would declare that “global warming is beneficial to the welfare and business climate of Montana.”

    If you don’t live in one of these states, it’s easy to tell yourself that these bills don’t affect you. But history suggests that what happens in one “laboratory” is quite often replicated in others — and ultimately, in the nation’s capital. That’s why we should all hope saner minds cut short these experiments before they get even more out of control.

    David Sirota is a best-selling author of the new book “Back to Our Future: How the 1980s Explain the World We Live In Now.”

    http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/03/18/sirota_laboratories_of_democracy


  306. Stmaford,
    Great links! I really enjoyed the story about the midwestern governors. It is an example of people in the street turning the tide. Power to the people. I haven’t said that phrase in about 30 plus years!


  307. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 11:29 am Stamford Liberal

    rafflaw,

    Thanks! I got a little giddy after reading that story as well. It gives me hope that people are waking up, and will vote with their heads instead of their hearts.


  308. Stamford Liberal,

    Great minds think alike! I posted that Sirota story at the Scott Walker thread.

    :)


  309. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 11:38 am Stamford Liberal

    Elaine M,

    Lol – I just saw that … glad I’m in good company!


  310. @Maury: There are no free lunches [...]

    On the contrary, there are plenty of free lunches. Two people living together (even same sex heterosexual roommates) can cooperate on expenses and live for about 30% cheaper than two people living seperately. Four people can live for about 40% less, and that can include food, fuel, utilities, housing, cleaning expenses. They even produce fewer waste products per person.

    They do have to ensure there are no egregious free rides; that nobody gets away with not paying their share of the rent, or eating food without paying a fair share, or leaving the garden hose on all day and then paying only 25% of the water bill. But, that done, the lunch is free, financially speaking.

    The smae case you can make for police, fire, and roads can be made for, say, healthcare. Roads are used almost entirely out of necessity, and healthcare is used almost entirely out of necessity. Roads are built and maintained at very close to cost by taxation; often by for-profit companies, but the management of those projects is a non-profit service of the government, and no employee of the government is getting rich off of it. There is no markup.

    That is what makes roads cheap and manageable, the fact that there is nobody out there charging us for road usage “whatever the market will bear.” What they charge us is the cost of the roads. It is the ultimate discount.

    Healthcare is similar. Nobody wants to go to the hospital, nobody is undergoing chemo for fun, or taking their ACE inhibitor because some celebrity is doing it. The government can run a huge healthcare operation, at cost, with better efficiency than a private hospital, with better outcomes than a private hospital, with less wait time and higher patient satisfaction than private hospitals. We have the premier example, the Veterans health care system.

    Healthcare is not that different from roads; everybody needs them to some extent, and everybody can benefit from it, both directly and indirectly. If the government ran healthcare like they have run the VA hospitals for half a century, our national health care costs would be over 30% less than they are now. Just like the VA, it doesn’t mean doctors earn less, or more patients die (in fact less), or waiting is any longer, or any of the other canards that conservatives throw around without knowing a damn thing about it.

    I am not a socialist, I just believe that there are more than three services that enough people need that we can (and should) collectively cooperate on them and cut out the middle men. It is a cost-saving measure, and a proven one regardless of what your belief may be. I’m not in favor of the government taking over television production or iPhone production or providing us restaurants or barbershops or spas or five star hotels or B movies on the scifi channel. Not one of those is critical to life, health, or safety, and not one of them reduces the cost of a universal good like roads or energy or scientific research or education.

    It is possible to be both cooperative on some things and competitive on some things. I’ve told this story before, but I will tell it again: My neighbor owns an accounting business, with a few employees, and it is a good little business. He is a capitalist. When our 25 year old fence was falling apart, he and I got together, split the cost of materials and split the labor between he and I, and replaced the fence. We saved thousands of dollars compared to having it done. It cost us a few weekends, and we built a better fence than what we could have afforded to buy from a contractor. His capitalist head did not explode after working on a socialist fence, and it turns out a New York City born accountant can do his fair share of demolition, swinging a pick and hauling bags of concrete, and tell jokes and accounting stories all at the same time.

    Your all-or-nothing view is simply flawed, neither of the extremes (total communism or totally free markets) actually work in practice, for real people. They’ve been tried, again and again and again for thousands of years. The societies that try them either die or move to the middle.


  311. Bob Esq:

    “Maury: “If your premise is incorrect then your logic is incorrect.”

    Wrong. A counter-factual premise does not affect the construction of the argument.”

    I should have said the results of your logic. Thank you for pointing that out. You are correct and I believe I said that above in one post.


  312. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 2:30 pm Otteray Scribe

    Tony, I doubt seriously that Maury even knows what a counter-factual premise is, and he is just trying to parrot what you said and turn it back away from himself. Someone who is intellectually honest would simply admit the error and go on. But, using ‘intellectually honest’ in this context is really an oxymoron of sorts.


  313. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 2:33 pm Otteray Scribe

    Sorry, I should have addressed the above comment to Bog, Esq and not Tony C. I went astray because I had also just read Tony’s excellent last comment.


  314. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 2:36 pm Otteray Scribe

    Arrrrrgggghhhhh… Bob Esq., not ‘Bog’ My bad.


  315. Otteray Scribe:

    Didn’t I give you a counter factual argument as an example way up above?

    All men are immortal, Socrates is a man, therefor Socrates is immortal.

    Is that right of not? I am sure there is much more to it, but that is the essence is it not?

    By the way I am still waiting for you to explain how, given your statement that an organism cannot competently know itself, an organism can know anything. Since one of the requirement of consciousness is to be self aware. And since being self aware requires knowing oneself, how can one know anything if one is not conscious of oneself?

    I am not a philosopher but you get the idea. I am patiently waiting for your explanation.


  316. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 3:12 pm Stamford Liberal

    OT but thought it was worth sharing …

    The government sues some bankers. Finally!

    The FDIC charges three Washington Mutual execs with gross negligence. Please tell us this is only the beginning
    By Andrew Leonard

    Excerpt:

    As a former customer of Washington Mutual (though not willingly — my much smaller bank was swallowed up by WaMu during their great 1990s expansion drive) I have followed the twists and turns of the saga of the financial crisis’ poster-boy for reckless lending with great interest over the years. Way back in August 2006, I was jolted to learn that WaMu had been booking negative amortization — roughly speaking, the amount of money owed that its mortgage borrowers were falling behind on paying — as earnings. I called it “Enron Economics” then and I think that subsequent events have borne me out.

    So now, in what is being billed as the biggest legal action taken by a regulator against executives of a financial institution involved in the great crash, the FDIC is suing WaMu’s three top corporate officers for, among other things “gross negligence, breach of fiduciary duty, and fraudulent conveyance.” The gist of the case: CEO Kerry Killinger and his two right-hand men knew that they were taking big risks by putting people in homes they couldn’t afford. They were warned countless times of the danger they were exposing the bank to. But they went ahead and did it anyway, continuing their reckless gambling even as the housing boom collapsed around them.

    The complaint makes for interesting reading, even if the broader narrative has been clear for some time. But one juicy little passage resonates with particular harshness.

    http://www.salon.com/news/mortgage_crisis/index.html?story=/tech/htww/2011/03/18/fdic_sues_washington_mutual


  317. @Maury: You have not answered; upon which counter-factual premise do you think I am basing my arguments? If you think there is more than one, just pick one you think is egregious and we shall discuss it.


  318. FYI, link here (typos in original):

    Judge blocks contentious Wisconsin union law
    A Wisconsin judge issued a temporary restraining order Friday blocking the state’s new and contentious collective bargaining law from taking effect, a measure that drew tens of thousands of protesters to the state Capitol and sent some Democrats fleeing to Illinois in an tempt to block a vote on it.

    The judge’s order is a major setback for Walker and puts the future of the law in question.

    Dane County Judge Maryann Sumi issued the order, which was requested by that county’s District Attorney Ismael Ozanne, a Democrat. Ozanne filed a lawsuit contending that a legislative committee that broke a stalemate that had kept the law in limbo for weeks met without the 24-hour notice required by Wisconsin’s open meetings law. The Republican-controlled Legislature passed the measure and Gov. Scott Walker signed it last week.

    Secretary of State Doug La Follette planned to publish the law on Mach 25, but the judge’s order will prevent that from happening, at least for now.


  319. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 3:27 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury, once again you resort to an all or nothing interpretation. Your argument is a variation of the ‘No True Scotsman’ logical fallacy and combining it with the Ad Ignoratium fallacy. Of course people and animals can know things about themselves. But early on, Freud discovered there is something called the unconscious. Freud has since been shown to be wrong about some of his theories, but this is one that has held up over time and thousands of research studies. While you may know many things about yourself, there are also many things you cannot know. Making it all the harder for you to know the truth is your resistance to being open minded.

    I have seen folks like you on the firing range and golf course. The instructor tells you what you are doing wrong, but instead of correcting course, you want to argue that the way you are doing it is right and the pro is wrong. And then wonder why you are missing the target or your golf ball ends up in the weeds.


  320. repost from another thread:

    “The whole purpose of the open meeting law, which implements constitutional mandates, is to provide notice to the public so that they can participate in governmental affairs. The GOP took several measures that not only violated this law but were intended to subvert democracy.”

    It has been my experience over the years and through my work on the LWV, that politicians fail to recognize the importance of “Sunshine Laws” (Open Meetings Law) until it smacks them in the face. These “Laws” have been around forever and there is a great deal of “Case Law” decided over decades thanks mainly to News Organizations demanding access to the legislative decision making process.


  321. Stamford,
    Great story about the FDIC actually going after some banksters. I will wait to celebrate until they are put in jail.


  322. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 4:21 pm Otteray Scribe

    Layoffs have human consequences. A public service employee in California jumped to his death from the roof of city hall. About the time on thinks there is nothing left to be outraged about, a story like this pops up. Here is my friend, attorney Senaca Doane:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/18/957770/-Public-employee-jumps-to-death-after-mass-layoff


  323. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 4:24 pm Stamford Liberal

    rafflaw

    “Great story about the FDIC actually going after some banksters. I will wait to celebrate until they are put in jail.”

    I just hope the FDIC keeps going with it. In fact, they should. LOL – yeah, I’m not breaking out the bubbly just yet …


  324. Otteray Scribe:

    Good luck with Freud.

    By open minded dont you really mean “…a call for perpetual skepticism, for holding no firm convictions and granting plausibility to anything.”

    By the way you still havent really answered my question.


  325. Otteray Scribe:

    In my professional life I have fired once and laid off once. I am still here. I feel sorry for a man and a young man at that, who would think the world is closed to him. I blame it on the current philosophical climate, not elected republicans. I might add that the intellectual climate of our country is, for the most part, controlled by progressives.

    So now the death of a human being is being used for political mileage? Isn’t that grand, how low will the left go in their desire to retain power? It doesn’t look good.


  326. Otteray & Maury,

    The right-wingers have little to do with anything “intellectual.” Many of them believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old and that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
    And as for the climate, here’s an interesting story from Daily Kos (2/18/2011):

    Montana Legislator Proposes Bill Declaring Global Warming ‘Natural’ and ‘Beneficial’
    by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/18/946725/-Montana-Legislator-Proposes-Bill-Declaring-Global-Warming-Natural-and-Beneficial

    Excerpt:
    State Rep. Joe Read (R-MT), a farmer and emergency firefighter who unseated a Democratic incumbent in the climate zombie wave of 2010, introduced HB 549 “to ensure economic development in Montana”:

    The legislature finds that to ensure economic development in Montana and the appropriate management of Montana’s natural resources it is necessary to adopt a public policy regarding global warming.

    (2) The legislature finds:

    (a) global warming is beneficial to the welfare and business climate of Montana;

    (b) reasonable amounts of carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere have no verifiable impacts on the environment; and

    (c) global warming is a natural occurrence and human activity has not accelerated it.

    .


  327. @Maury: Well, I’ll agree with you on the substance of that (on firing).

    However, I think you are wrong to blame this on anybody but the suicidal 29-year old maintenance worker killing himself over losing a 4-year old job, with six months notice. In my view, that constitutes mental illness; he surely must have been suicidal before this relatively trivial setback.

    I don’t know what kind of maintenance he was doing, but even if the firing were unfair, with six months to find similar paying work to pay the bills can’t be that hard, in any economic environment. When I was 17 I could find decent paying work in a few weeks; washing dishes, janitorial, unloading 18-wheelers at stores, shoveling gravel at a construction site, whatever. I got fired from some of them, too.

    It isn’t the last straw that breaks a camel’s back, it is the weight of the million straws that went before it. This guy was already sick and a whole myriad of minor setbacks might have triggered his final decision.


  328. Tony C:

    I still stand by my assesment that the intellectual climate in our country is not healthy and is decidely negative in outlook.

    There is nothing positive going on, at least to people looking at the surface.

    This poor guy probably thought his life was over, probably didnt speak english very well and was told by his union that it would be almost impossible to get another job. Call me a cynic but I could see one of those SEIU thugs in leadership taking advantage of a person in a diminished mental state and hoping for this outcome to promote the unions agenda. Such is my opinion of union goons.


  329. Elaine:

    I think that guy is right, there was an increase in population during the medieval warming period due to the increased crop production. I say bring on global warming, it will be good for the human race.

    But that is not what the left is all about, they want to destroy the human race. So they want to do away with anything that might extend and better our lives. Or they just want power so they make it eztremely difficult to get ahead, keeping people dependent upon government for all manner of things.


  330. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 7:31 pm Otteray Scribe

    Dr. Paul Krugman has some excellent observations in his NYT column yesterday. A couple of excerpts

    More than three years after we entered the worst economic slump since the 1930s, a strange and disturbing thing has happened to our political discourse: Washington has lost interest in the unemployed.

    Krugman goes on to say:

    …no jobs bills have been introduced in Congress, no job-creation plans have been advanced by the White House and all the policy focus seems to be on spending cuts.

    So one-sixth of America’s workers — all those who can’t find any job or are stuck with part-time work when they want a full-time job — have, in effect, been abandoned.

    However, the congress can seem to find time to challenge DATD in court, and to otherwise waste time with such pressing projects as investigating whether a house of worship can be built near the old WTC site in New York.

    Read the full story here:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/18/opinion/18krugman.html?_r=1


  331. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 7:40 pm Otteray Scribe

    Moving right along, the Ouichita River in Arkansas and Louisiana is being polluted in a major way by Koch Industries, owned by the Koch crime family. Take a look at this formerly pristine stream just downriver from the Georgia-Pacific plant in Crossett, Arkansas.

    More detailed account on the Great Orange Satan:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/18/957440/-Koch-paper-pollution-chokes-Ouachita-River


  332. Maury,

    “I think that guy is right, there was an increase in population during the medieval warming period due to the increased crop production. I say bring on global warming, it will be good for the human race.”

    The best part of this whole thing is assumption that an increase in population is always good for the human race.

    OS,

    No, see defunding NPR is about creating jobs.


  333. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 7:42 pm Otteray Scribe

    An addnote: There was a time when you could eat fish caught in this area of the river. How do I know? Because when I was a kid, I fished in this river and ate what I caught.


  334. OS,
    Paul Krugman hit the nail on the head. We need a WPA type jobs program. Maybe they can clean up the Koch Brothers messes.


  335. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 7:58 pm Anonymously Yours

    LSD: Hundreds of protesting high school students face disciplinary action

    UPDATED: 12:05 P.M. — LANSING — Lansing School District officials have confirmed that more 300 students face possible suspension for skipping school today to protest education cuts at the Capitol.

    “According to the Lansing schools code of conduct, participation in (the protest) is a non-excused absence, which does warrant some level of disciplinary action,” said Annie Rzepecki, spokeswoman for the Lansing School District. “That has yet to be determined.

    http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20110318/NEWS04/103180331/LSD-Hundreds-protesting-high-school-students-face-disciplinary-action?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE


  336. Paul Krugman ought to give back his Noble prize if he is promoting a WPA or CCC type program. What will get us out of this recession is cutting government spending and getting government out of business.

    Production will get us out of the recession, not spending. If you create a WPA it will be another 10 years before we see daylight. Let wages fall, abolish the minimum wage, reduce the income tax on all income earned by labor or otherwise to 15% or lower and make it permanent.

    That will go a good long way toward getting us back on our feet.

    We already had a WPA and a CCC it didn’t work in the 30’s and it wont work now. Why do lefties continually want to do that which does not work?


  337. Gyges:

    do the math, you can put all of the people in the world in the state of Texas.

    World Population = 6,775,235,741
    Size of Texas in Square Feet = 268,581 square miles*(20,740,000 sq. ft./square mile) = 5,570,369,940,000 sq. ft.

    Square foot per person = 822 sq. ft./person

    Population Density of New York City = 1,510 sq. ft per person as a gage. Probably Singapore or Hong Kong would be closer. In any event that is a good deal of open space.


  338. on 1, March 18, 2011 at 9:59 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury, once again you fall into a fallacy trap. The one just above is a false equivalence fallacy, expressed mathematically as:

    A has X and Y
    B has A’s X, so B must also have A’s Y

    Also, inclusive of an ad absurdum argument. A is false, therefore B is also false; however, B is true; therefore, A cannot be false, therefore A is true. This form of argument is frequently premised on a false dichotomy making the ostensible proof a logical fallacy.


  339. Krugman didn’t suggest a WPA type program, I did. You might want to actually read what he said.


  340. I am old enough to remember the CCC and WPA programs. Anyone who says they did not work has no grasp of the total situation. I have heard that Republican talking point before, the first time being back in those dark days when I was just a small kid. Those programs, plus the TVA, saved countless lives and lifted the quality of life for the entire country. There is a school building built by the WPA only a short distance from my home, still standing strong and sturdy. They built bridges, roads, dams, and improved the infrastructure of this country in ways that no one who did not live back then can even imagine. People were employed, and did work benefiting the country in the process, while they were lifted out of abject poverty into the middle class.

    Work? Hell yes, those programs worked!


  341. OS,
    Well said. Many of the forest preserve buildings in Northern Illinois were built by WPA or CCC. Not to mention the work they did at national parks.


  342. Otteray,

    Right on about the TVA. My maternal grandfather worked for the WPA. It wasn’t a “welfare” program.

    **********

    Maury,

    Maybe you think Krugman should give back his “Nobel” prize too???

    ;)


  343. @Maury: If climate change makes the world warmer, Texas is not going to be the destination of choice.

    Every summer, heat waves kill hundreds of thousands of people, and these deaths are getting worse. Primarily it kills the elderly, ill or infants, but that is slowly changing, the death toll is creeping down the age bracket from the top, and up from the bottom. In particular climate change is increasing summer temperatures AND humidity; and this causes heat exhaustion.

    In fact, there will be refugees from these parts of the world that can no longer support life; and wars over land and countries as the arable, inhabitable resource area becomes more rare.

    With climate change, large parts of Texas will become uninhabitable in summer. I suggest if you want to round up all the people into global warming refugee camps, you plan to do that in the empty areas of Alaska and our Northern border.

    Most people don’t realize it, but if we ever needed a last refuge on earth to find humans after severe global warming, the exposed Antartic continent may be the best candidate. The land mass is well above any possible rise in sea levels (even hundreds of feet), but that is true of most areas. The real value on the Antarctic continent would be the relative temperature, and for the same reason, the sea around it might support food life.

    Location, location, location, that is the rule of all real estate, people.


  344. OS:

    all the WPA and CCC did was take money from the private sector.


  345. Maury, were you there? Private sector hell. All the money was drained out of the general populace (that part of the private sector) and pumped into a handful of oligarchs and politicians. People were committing suicide when they lost everything. As for that “taking” thing, the programs pumped vast amounts of money into salaries (which were subject to income tax) and put people to work. Not just make-work either. They built bridges, schools, roads, paved roads that were not paved, government buildings, libraries, and airports. Our local airport got its first paved runway thanks to the WPA. Before that your Ford Trimotor airliner landed in a huge grass field. I recall those days, and can remember the great relief people experienced when they finally got a job. No sir. Those programs were anything but welfare programs. They were “back to work” programs and they improved the infrastructure of the country in ways you cannot even imagine.

    For what it is worth, I am less than an hour drive from three (3) major TVA dams. Built back then, they furnish me with inexpensive, non-polluting electricity after all these decades. How much money have those dams saved the common person? Just one example of many.


  346. I put this information up on another thread, but re-posting it to this one in view of its importance to Michigan politics and the State Supreme Court race.

    Headlines in Wisconsin report that Justice David Prosser went on an enraged rant, during which he called State Supreme Court Chief Justice Shirley Abrahamson a “bitch” and went on to say that he would “destroy” her. Prosser is running for re-election against Assistant Attorney General Shirley Abrahamson. It has been Prosser’s race to lose, and it looks as if he is working hard at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/118310479.html

    Bob Johnson has pulled together some additional information and links.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/20/958283/-Wisconsin-GOP-Supreme-Court-Justice-Prosser-calls-Chief-Justice,-A-bitch


  347. @Maury: Here is what I believe: A group of people can get together, fund an organization that creates a massive profit, and distribute that profit back to their investors.

    The WPA is not that different. The group was the elected Representatives of the American people; the organization was the WPA that built many projects that had a massive economic impact, and the profits (in the form of savings) redounded directly to the investors, the American people.

    The only sense in which it took a dime from the private sector was that nobody in the private sector or the government became billionaires by executing these much needed projects; but the fact that no money was skimmed off the top in the form of cash “profits” meant that 100% of the benefit of the projects was redistributed to those that funded the projects; the public.

    They created economic growth and decades of reduced cost for rich and poor alike, businesses and citizens alike. Who doesn’t want their electricity at cost? Who doesn’t want their transportation expenses to be as cheap as possible?


  348. Well said Tony C.!
    Maury, the public sector did benefit from the work programs because those people who were working were earning a living wage and spending it in the public sector. The projects purchased materials from the public sector as well so your comment is incorrect.


  349. Blah, blah, blah, communist BS about the depression of 1929.

    If it was so great how come it took 15 years to get out of the depression?

    We did not come out of it until the GI’s returning from overseas started buying houses and cars.

    Go look at the history of depressions prior to the creation of the Federal Reserve, short and deep.


  350. on 1, March 20, 2011 at 5:27 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury, there is an old saying that it is better to be thought stupid than to start talking and remove all doubt.

    you have no idea what you are talking about. The Great Depression actually had its roots in Florida with the speculation there that brought about the big land bust a couple of years before the crash of 1929. Things were awful by 1932 and Herbert Hoover and his cronies had no idea what to do or how to do it to solve the problem. FDR was elected and the Republicans continued to try and sabotage his every move, but he plowed ahead anyway despite Republican opposition.

    He created a number of programs to get people back to work and create a safety net for the elderly and infirm. He called that Social Security which is actually a pay-as-you-go program, not a savings account.

    It was the mid-thirties before the programs really go off the ground to a good start. The WPA was created in 1936 and in the four years from 1936 to 1939, poured about seven (7) billion dollars into the economy. That was a huge sum back then.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

    The CCC started in 1933 and put young men ages 18-25 to work. It was dissolved right after the war started. Of all the New Deal programs, the CCC was the most popular. Not only did the young men get paid, part of their pay was set aside and sent to their parents.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps

    We were attacked in 1941 and the country shifted into high gear with the war effort. So, the country was actually lifted out of a Republican-created depression in about five years, not fifteen. The fifteen year number is one the right wing talking heads made up. No point in letting facts get in the way of a good lie.

    You really do not have a counter argument do you? Sorry chum, ridicule is not an argument and makes you look weak and floundering.


  351. OS:

    I know all about how Hoover screwed up with his tinkering and then FDR and his Harvard boys screwed the pooch.

    It was a recession/depression caused by both republicans and democrats “tinkering” with the banking system.

    The Federal Reserve and bank regulations of the time were the cause. The policies of both Hoover and FDR sent us into a tail-spin. But FDR extended the depression with his New Deal/WPA/CCC programs.

    The depression started in earnest in about 1933, the government engaged in stimulus spending sometime between 31 and 33, things looked like they were getting better and then wham. [It's Deja Vu all over again with Obama and Bush. Thankfully India, China, Brazil (which by the way was just given approval by the Obama admin for Petrobras to drill in the GOM. And wonder of wonders George Soros is a shareholder or has some financial interest in Petrobras) India and other countries are rising economies or Bush and Obama would have sunk the world economy with the TARP and Stimulus spending. As it is they have set the stage for high inflation which we are just now starting to see.]

    What does your BFF Krugman have to say about that?

    We were still in a depression during WWII, why else the rationing? We were not yet on our feet, it had nothing to do with the war effort. I could find no info on rationing in America during WW I and we were giving aid to Britain during the War.

    I also see you refused to entertain my assertion about short, deep depressions prior to the creation of the Federal Reserve, when markets were still relatively free.

    But anyway, keep on obfuscating and sowing liberal/progressive propaganda. Although I guess you could actually believe the BS you are posting.


  352. on 1, March 20, 2011 at 9:50 pm Otteray Scribe

    Flail away. Talking points do not make it true. Do not let reality or the truth get in the way of a good lie.

    As for recessions and depressions. There was no economic model for the Great Depression. None. It was something that had never been seen before. How long it would have gone on was anyone’s guess. It may never have ended and the government could have collapsed, making way for a fascist dictator, or worse.

    You speak from theory, “what if” and other libertarian/right wing talking points. Had your group been in charge of the country…. I don’t even want to think about it.


  353. Just an afterthought. Germany was also sinking into a depression, caused partly by the required payment of massive reparations for WW-I. By the same time we were sinking into the depths of the depression, a savior for the German people appeared named Adolph…..

    In Italy, a guy named Benito said he would make the trains run on time. and he did….

    It couldn’t have happened here, could it? It couldn’t happen in Germany or Italy either.


  354. @Maury: The WPA was not communist; not even in part. Communism (at least the unccorrupted idealist version) believes that people’s income has nothing to do with their work efforts or skill, which they are required to expend. That is the meaning of the dictum “From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.”

    The WPA only paid people that worked, they didn’t just start paying people’s bills, regardless of how much work they could do. Managers earned more than laborers, architects earned more than managers.

    What you are thinking of is “socialist,” but the WPA was not socialism either. For one, socialism rejects hierarchical forms of management and government; the WPA was firmly in the camp of having a chain of command. Secondly, nobody in the WPA was seizing the factories and other “means of production” to be run by the state, they were buying materials and some services from the private sector. That was much the point, to stimulate the economy by building infrastructure.

    Nobody was centrally-planning the economy from the WPA, and the WPA did not nationalise any private sector companies.

    In today’s wages, the WPA’s pay of $1200 per year per worker would be about $16,000, accounting for cost-of-living inflation from 1935 to 2010. Basically it was less than our current minimum wage for the laborers; the skilled workers (architects and engineers and project foremen) brought the overall average up to about our minimum wage.

    Perhaps that is the problem, Maury, you don’t understand the meaning of the words you use; to you they are just derisive insults. I suspect you cannot get past your negative emotions in order to address the cause of those negative emotions; whatever hatred you are feeling is misdirected.


  355. OS:

    “There was no economic model for the Great Depression. None. It was something that had never been seen before. How long it would have gone on was anyone’s guess.”

    Do you actually believe that? There were plenty of depressions prior to the “Great Depression” which were larger [but not longer], they just lasted a few years. The reason? Less government intervention. They were market corrections, which usually happen after a good run in the economy. And theoretically in a free economy (i.e. one without the Federal Reserve determining interest rates) not all sectors would be down at the same time.

    I leave it to you to do your homework to disprove my assertion but here is a link to “Great Depression” of 1873:

    http://piggington.com/the_real_great_depression_panic_of_1873

    If you read a little more about that particular depression you can see the governments hand in it through the government land grants to railroads. The land grants caused an artificial climate for the development of railroads. Cheap land meant over-production of rail. It wasn’t sustainable. Sort of like the low interest rates and the housing market pull back we are going through now.

    Government has no business being in business, it doesn’t work. Then or now the result is the same.

    But keep on dreaming that socialist dream, maybe someday it will turn out differently. But the historical evidence isnt very good that there will be any different outcome.


  356. Tony C:

    No hatred at all, I just am tired of seeing the same things being done year after year with the same results.

    When you take money from one group and distribute it to another group, whether they work or not, that is socialism/communism. Granted it is better that they work for it but the result to the economy is the same.

    All the WPA and CCC did was rob Peter (the private sector) to pay Paul. It assumes Paul is better able to spend Peter’s money than money. It transfers/reallocates funds through centralized planning.

    The problem is that you do not know what would have happened if you had just left it alone.


  357. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 9:51 am Otteray Scribe

    Maury, there had been depression and recessions before. You are correct about that. On the other hand, nothing in our history even remotely resembled the Great Depression of the 1930’s. This was not a theoretical exercise. People were destitute, the unemployment rate was so high that no accurate count was ever accomplished. The best unemployment figures were only estimates, and most responsible researchers admit the published numbers were way too low. It was not a time for high-minded theories, but for action. Fortunately, FDR was an action oriented president and did something about it. Steal from the private sector to pay the private sector. Not communism buddy, but called taxation to raise money for public works. We still do exactly that, just not on as grand a scale. That street you drive on to get to the store, or the courthouse where you transact business, the post office where you pick up your mail, or the airport your plane lands on when you go see grandma. All those are public works, built with tax money. Unfortunately, due to the hue and cry to cut taxes, especially for those who can pay higher taxes, our infrastructure is falling apart. A bridge falls into the Mississippi river due to lack of maintenance due to lack of funds for maintenance–not a problem, but may we have another tax cut please?


  358. Dr. Scribe:

    the depression of 1873 was as bad or worse than the depression of 1929-1946.

    The bridge over the Mississippi did not fail due to lack of maintenance:

    “The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the collapse of the I-35W bridge in Minneapolis, Minnesota, was the inadequate load capacity, due to a design error by Sverdrup & Parcel and Associates, Inc., of the gusset plates at the U10 nodes, which failed under a combination of (1) substantial increases in the weight of the bridge, which resulted from previous bridge modifications, and (2) the traffic and concentrated construction loads on the bridge on the day of the collapse. Contributing to the design error was the failure of Sverdrup & Parcel’s quality control procedures to ensure that the appropriate main truss gusset plate calculations were performed for the I-35W bridge and the inadequate design review by Federal and State transportation officials. Contributing to the accident was the generally accepted practice among Federal and State transportation officials of giving inadequate attention to gusset plates during inspections for conditions of distortion, such as bowing, and of excluding gusset plates in load rating analyses.”

    http://www.dot.state.mn.us/i35wbridge/

    More propaganda from a hard core leftist. Maybe you are wrong about most of what you think know and maybe the professors you had are wrong as well. Maybe they taught you what they wanted to believe was so. And so they found historical “evidence” that fit their preconceieved notions about the efficacy of socialism/collectivism.

    Maybe they are the ones who are propagandists for a cause, ever think of that? The premises you built your foundation of knowledge on may just be shifting sands. From my viewpoint that is exactly what it looks like.

    John D. Rockefeller may have been fabulousy rich but he saved the whales, found numerous uses for oil so that he used almost all of a gallon of oil and brought cheap fuel to the masses. Not bad for a “Robber Baron”.

    He was more of an environmentalist without intending to be than the Sierra Club is with all of their save the whale advertising. Free Markets are environmentally sensitive because people find ways to make things more cheaply and to minimize waste products. Henry Ford started a charcoal business to make use of the wood pallets he received parts on. Recovering lost heat in power plants is a big deal, and on and on.

    I would say much of what you know isnt so.



  359. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 11:14 am Anonymously Yours

    My question to all of you regulars folks…not the regular troll posters..why do you give them the time of day…they have their agenda and you feed them…just ignore them would be appropriate…

    I do however appreciate the historical perspective….what troll maury does not understand is the difference in the degree and impact of society the financial market collapses had at different time….the hit in 29 was because of the new rules that allowed everyone to play in the market….margin account rules became very loose….before that and especially the hit in 73 that maury spoke of as well as the hit in 96 were almost isolated to the extreme wealthy….such as the Roosevelts of the US…they lost a shit load in todays terms…

    As then as now… a small group of folks control most of the wealth…


  360. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 11:30 am J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    Y’all got a reprieve from my perhaps-oddly-used words. Omaha, Nebraska, Creighton University, Dr. Stephen Lanspa, and the bad news is simply that Dr. Lanspa did not find any imminently cancerous polyps in what the surgeons left of my original body organs. Professor Turley permitting, there may be quite a few more oddly-worded comments here.

    Saw the Sandhill Cranes landing at dusk south of Gibbon, where the Nebraska. The cranes were feeding in the corn fields along Interstate 80 as my wife and I drove toward Gibbon. We ate dinner in Gibbon and then, as sunset was about half an hour away, drove south to the Central Platte Natural Resources District Gibbon Bridge Crane Viewing Platforms, as they are handicap-accessible.

    There was a pair of songbirds in a nearby tree as the cranes flew overhead, toward the setting sun. The songbirds called out to the cranes, and the cranes avoided bothering the songbirds.

    It is now thought by some biology people, including me, that birds are the dinosaurs which survived the extinction of large dinosaurs.

    If people continue to attack one another as has been the seeming historical trend for thousands of years, the dinosaurs may yet again become the “top animal form” on this planet.

    Unlike what I often observe to be true of people, the surviving dinosaurs actually appear to me to both know and understand how to live decently.

    As I observe human behavior, particularly human political behavior in these (Dis-?)United States of America, I am beginning to experience faint hints of favoring human extinction so that decency and respect may (again?) become allowable.

    On reading through the more than 360 comments on this thread before this one, I observe a pattern. This pattern has led me to write these words so that all doubt as to my being stupid may properly dissipate. Methinks that “Stupid,” however, is a discrete continuum, with one point on the continuum for each individual person.

    Perhaps I am just barely intelligent enough to realize that I am nearly perfectly stupid.

    Were I not nearly perfectly stupid, I would have enough ability to communicate some of the things folks who toy around with scientific psychology have written of.

    There is attribution error; and there is in particular attribution error which falsely assigns to personal disposition that which is both situational an outside the locus of control of the person to whom attribution is falsely assigned.

    Let me use myself as an illustration. My dad and brother were obviously much more intelligent than I am. My dad was intelligent enough to complete his earthly life when he was 66, and my brother was enough more intelligent as to have completed his earthly life when he was 50. Here I am approaching 72, and nowhere near, as best I can tell, doing what my brother accomplished when he was about 22 years younger than I am.

    My brother was much smarter than I am, he fastidiously avoided people like Dr. Lanspa until after his familial adenomatous polyposis genetic condition had provided him with terminal cancer. Being really stupid, I sought surgical help, my colon was snatched out by Dr. Ernestine Hambrick, at the now-defunct Michael Reese Hospital, in Chicago, in 1986. Thus, I am alive on earth now, and able to observe the spectacle of ultimate human stupidity which I deem to be the United States of America disuniting itself over trivialities and ignorance.

    When I first got into digital computing, when interpreters and compilers were tricky and full of “bugs,” I observed that computers are very much like people, both computers and people do what you tell them to do, whether you mean it or not.

    Knowing this, being as stupid as I am, I do not tell other people what to do, for I am not nearly intelligent enough to be capable of doing that with any hint of decency or respect.

    Therefore, I violate a fundamental tenet of human society, and simply describe what I have done, without expecting anyone to make any sense of it or otherwise, and I allow whoever comes upon something I have described to use it in whatever way, if any, that the person deems of possible value.

    Reading through the prior 360-or-so comments on this thread, I find many comments to be of a form in which one commentator attempts to convince another commentator about something. Were I to actually intend to do such, I would regard my conduct as childish and damaging. But then, being as stupid as I am, what do I know, anyway?

    Why do we, as a species, work so hard to make My Lai Massacre type events happen?

    If a pair of songbirds and more-than-I-could-count Sandhill Cranes could work collaboratively together to share the resources of planet earth, what would it take for humans to begin to approach the intelligence level of the remaining dinosaurs?


  361. “JOBLESS MEN KEEP GOING
    We can’t take care of our own.”


  362. “No one can have possibly lived through the Great Depression without being scarred by it…”
    – Isaac Asimov


  363. Strikebreaking in the 1930s.


  364. “Thousands of jobless boys jumped at the CCC offer for a decent livng and money to send home in return for their labor…”
    – RKO Pathe newsreel commentator


  365. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 1:02 pm Stamford Liberal

    Gee, OS, you’re posting those videos like Maury, et al will actually watch them, or something.

    Don’t you think they might be a little more than what Maury can handle? You know, facts and stuff like that?
    :D


  366. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 1:10 pm Otteray Scribe

    Stamford Liberal:
    I knew he would not watch them, but maybe it will slow down the blather. Besides, it is fun to find interesting videos on the subject. Many people are nostalgic for their childhood, but I have mixed feelings. When I see those pictures, I have flashbacks.

    Trolls see exploitation of the people by the government. I see exploitation of the people by the oligarchs and investors, and a reasoned response by the government to save the general public from starvation.

    I see Brian is back with what is probably the most non-responsive and irrelevant off-topic posting to date.

    Do you suppose our trolls like music?


  367. “John D. Rockefeller may have been fabulousy rich but he saved the whales, found numerous uses for oil so that he used almost all of a gallon of oil and brought cheap fuel to the masses. Not bad for a “Robber Baron”.”

    He also murdered people to protect his profits, but you would believe that’s a lie also.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

    There are many more instances, but your view of history is limited by your unoriginal pre-judgments.

    “And so they found historical “evidence” that fit their preconceieved notions about the efficacy of socialism/collectivism.”

    A prefect example of the psychological defense mechanism called Projection. This occurs when someone knows something “wrong” about their own actions, lacks the emotional stability to acknowledge it at least to themselves and so “projects” their flaws onto others. This is why you’re to be pitied because with you there are three options.

    1. Paid Troll and so pathetic in a pathetic profession.

    2. Self unaware which is also pathetic.

    3. Masochistic, pathetic because you enjoy being publicly humiliated as your arguments are demolished.

    Now of course you could be guilty of two of three, or three of three of the above. This only shows that you are in a “no-win”
    situation that seems heroic to similar pathetic no-nothings.


  368. “My question to all of you regulars folks…not the regular troll posters..why do you give them the time of day…they have their agenda and you feed them…just ignore them would be appropriate…”

    AY,

    While I would say that the above is generally true, there also is the argument that a lie unanswered, is a lie that seems true to some. While he is not to be taken seriously and can’t even reasonably back up his lies, there is some pleasure to be had in derision. I normally don’t take pleasure in deriding people and will give them the benefit of the doubt at first. However, i’m sure you’ve noticed the tendency of some to constantly throw in derisive comments (from their viewpoint) while making points:

    “More propaganda from a hard core leftist. Maybe you are wrong about most of what you think know and maybe the professors you had are wrong as well. Maybe they taught you what they wanted to believe was so. And so they found historical “evidence” that fit their preconceieved notions about the efficacy of socialism/collectivism.”

    Now I know that you are neither a socialist, nor a collectivist.
    I know I’m not and that many of the rest of us aren’t. Being civil libertarians crosses all divides of the political spectrum and most here are pragmatic, iconoclasts who look for solutions without consulting some magical “ism.” When people like this troll cast their aspersions wildly, without justification, instead of just sticking to their argument, then I do take pleasure in deriding them because they deserve it. They think they piss us off, when they are really objects of entertainment.
    following one canon or another.


  369. “They think they piss us off, when they are really objects of entertainment following one canon or another.” (Mike Spindell)

    ============================================

    Rather like shelling roasted peanuts in a bar … definitely not the reason one went in and not the reason one stays … just something to do until the next round is served.


  370. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 1:57 pm Stamford Liberal

    OS,

    Well, I certainly appreciate the videos you’ve posted. Very educational for me.

    “Do you suppose our trolls like music?”

    Come on! “Talking Dustbowl Blues” is librul, hippy dippy stuff! Now, my guess is that this is more to the trolls liking … that tough guy, real Amerkun music!


  371. @Maury: The problem is that you do not know what would have happened if you had just left it alone.

    Just as YOU do not know what would have happened; your theory of what would have happened is no better than anybody else’s theory.

    However, we do know what DID happen right before the WPA was approved; the elected representatives of the United States of America approved of the expenditure, and we also know that a majority of citizens approved of the expenditure, both before the Congress took this measure and years after the Congress took this measure.

    You can try to reinvent what the words Communism and Socialism mean, but you are resorting to lies to support your ideology when you do that. Using taxes to build infrastructure is not “robbing” anybody, it is demanding that people pay their fair share of the cost of the free services and infrastructure they have used and will use. So your actions and opinions and characterizations speak louder than your lies; you do hate others, it is evident in everything you write. You think they are “robbing” you by making you pay your share of the bill, you think liberals are trying to kill you or destroy the country, you are so full of hatred it leaks into your every claim.


  372. Dr. Scribe:

    I know how badly the great depression affected people; I heard the storied from my grandmother (a single mother raising 2 children) and my grandfather. I saw it in everything they did, from saving paper bags to reusing paper towels. I experienced it vicariously but it still scares the hell out of me.

    And that is why I do not like socialism, I don’t want to go through that nor do I want my children to. Socialism is not a dynamic system and it causes wealth to be concentrated. Free markets make it hard for the wealthy to keep their wealth but regulated markets are regulated by the wealthy for the wealthy. But you all never think about that do you.

    A gold standard and unregulated markets would do more for the poor than anything you could possibly think of. We have had enough regulation by rich people for rich people. You all are traitors to your cause if it is helping the poor. The regulations help keep the rich rich and the poor poor. Your policies make it harder for the poor to get ahead and your addiction to Federal Reserve inflationary practices destroys the poor man’s paycheck.


  373. Tony C:

    I don’t like socialism/communism/fascism, the people who practice it are the ones who hate people. They may not actually hate people but they may as well, what with the inevitable consequences of those political/economic theories.


  374. “And that is why I do not like socialism”

    You can like the word or not, but wouldn’t help to know what it means? You don’t even have a clue.


  375. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 2:56 pm Otteray Scribe

    Mike, did you notice that Maury’s response was almost as incoherent as Brian’s comment above?

    What the hell does a gold standard have to do with anything? And we have seen what the Reagan “Revolution” of rampant deregulation of the free markets and concomitant tax cuts for the wealthy brought us.

    Maybe Maury ought to go buy some gold coins from Glenn Beck and live in a cave.


  376. Stamford Liberal:

    So you are making fun of all the troops as well, eh? Figures, you should probably live in Cuba or Venezuela. Much more suited to your outlook which is decidedly anti-Amerkun.

    I dont know if you have noticed but most wars are started by liberals. At least in the last century. The collectivists had a field day with wars.

    Traders do not want to go to war, there is no benefit to war for a trader.


  377. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 2:59 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Stamford Liberal, March 21, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    Gee, OS, you’re posting those videos like Maury, et al will actually watch them, or something.

    Don’t you think they might be a little more than what Maury can handle? You know, facts and stuff like that? :D

    ########################

    I sometimes wonder whether it is ever possible to have a derogatory view of another person without first having acquired a derogatory opinion of one’s self…

    As I have no derogatory opinion of myself, neither have I any derogatory opinion of Maury or anyone else. If we were to choose to not play variations of “king of the mountain” put-down game, we might be able to learn useful things from each other, useful things that might actually help resolve the mess instead of making the mess into an object of despicable, idolatrous worship?

    ########################
    ########################

    RE: Otteray Scribe, March 21, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    I see Brian is back with what is probably the most non-responsive and irrelevant off-topic posting to date.

    ###################################

    OS, thanks again for validating my research method.

    What in the universe gives to you the presumptuous authoritarian fallacy that you are capable of determining the purpose of my life, such that you have even the slightest clue as to whether my work is on or off topic. My topic is my topic and is likely not your topic, for I am not you. Of course, I am and my work is irrelevant to you and your life. That is why I comment here. Some day, methinks you may “get it.” Until then, I shall do my work as properly befits it.

    If you really hold to the notion that my work being irrelevant to you makes it irrelevant to those who asked me to do this work, methinks an ego boundary violation process may be at work.


  378. OS,

    I think he does have a semi-coherent world view, he just hasn’t thought it through and lacks the self awareness to recognize its’ and his limitations. Haven’t you expounded on that individual type before? =:)


  379. Mike Spindell:

    Sure I do, I know exactly what it means. Rob Peter to pay Paul and keep rich ole Uncle Jack rolling in the dough through diminished competition.


  380. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 3:08 pm Otteray Scribe

    Mike, there are people here who are willing and able to walk him through a version of “Economics for Dummies,” but being a True Believer, he keeps his critical thinking and reasoning skills in a logic-tight box. Rather than engage in a reasoned discussion, he rants and flounders, making himself the object of a combination of pity and ridicule by any sentient being who stops by.

    I agree with the ‘hatred’ comment above. Spot on.


  381. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 3:12 pm Otteray Scribe

    Brian, when you stop in a diary having a discussion and dump a large turd in the mix, yes, it is annoying. Your narcissistic and self-absorbed ramblings may be of interest to you, but I have seen little or no receptivity to them here. May I suggest, respectfully, you start your own blog and write as much as you please. If it is interesting you will develop a following, such as that of Professor Turley. If not, then maybe you are not interesting. How about trying it out and do your “research” that way.


  382. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 3:13 pm Stamford Liberal

    Maury

    Stamford Liberal:

    So you are making fun of all the troops as well, eh? Figures, you should probably live in Cuba or Venezuela. Much more suited to your outlook which is decidedly anti-Amerkun.

    I dont know if you have noticed but most wars are started by liberals. At least in the last century. The collectivists had a field day with wars.

    Traders do not want to go to war, there is no benefit to war for a trader.

    —————————————–

    As you have already proven – ad nauseum – you lack reading comprehension skills. And, I don’t get paid to teach you how to understand what is right in front of you. You don’t get it? Too f**king bad, boy.

    As far as most wars being started by liberals – please provide proof from reputable, verifiable sources. Not some nitwit from the Rabid and Ridiculous Right.

    LOL – Look son, if you’re going to try and insult me (key word – try, yet you’ve failed … miserably), at least have the courtesy to spell said insult correctly … it’s “traitor”, dumbass.


  383. OS,
    Thanks for the CCC training attempt! Our friends just don’t want to deal with facts or reality. It would ruin their dream.


  384. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 5:07 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Otteray Scribe, March 21, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    Brian, when you stop in a diary having a discussion and dump a large turd in the mix, yes, it is annoying. Your narcissistic and self-absorbed ramblings may be of interest to you, but I have seen little or no receptivity to them here. May I suggest, respectfully, you start your own blog and write as much as you please. If it is interesting you will develop a following, such as that of Professor Turley. If not, then maybe you are not interesting. How about trying it out and do your “research” that way.

    ########################

    OS, Thanks for your suggestion. Alas, I find it to be incompatible with my legal-theory-question research protocol.

    Why would it concern me whether I am or am not interesting?

    Two papers in the March 2011 APS Observer may be relevant for those who are able to understand them.

    Starting on page 11, “Mirror Neurons,” by Temma Ehrenfeld, might help the curious to fathom the way I use the mirror neuron system to elicit information from the “regulars” here.

    Starting on page 15, “Monkey Business,” by Eric Jaffe, on the work of Laurie Santos regarding the evolutionary roots of economic behavior as apropos to the Leisure Class, may inform the willing to learn more of the prehistoric factors which contribute to the concoction of the top tier of human society. A brief quote from Santos, “When you study humans, it’s hard to get to the root of what makes us what we are. If you look at the field of psychology over the last 20 years, you don’t find that humans are so smart. You find that our judgments are bad and that we’re biased and prejudiced — things we’re not really proud of, and that can seem pretty irrational. I realized that there was no study of the origin of this stuff — no idea where the biases came from. I took that to be a bit of the puzzle.”

    I here choose to emphasize one short sentence from that Laurie Santos quote, which I here put in bold:

    , “You find that our judgments are bad and that we’re biased and prejudiced…”

    There is an irony which nudges my attention. I find your responses to my comments entirely appropriate within your apparent world view; we simply do not share much in common as to our individual world views. That is not a judgment on my part, it is of direct observation. At the same time, I cannot find your remarks to be particularly non-judgmental and, if anything is manifestly obvious to me, it is that top tier people tend to become very concerned when their ill-gotten status appears to be threatened.

    Your “annoyance” is, in my work, one of the meritorious objects of study. The more annoyed you become, the more useful data you provide to me. The more you deride or derogate my work and methods, the more you inform me about your value system.

    However, your seeming hostility (if that be a viable word) to my comments is not at all annoying to me, though it is slightly bemusing.

    Let me restate, for the nth time, my research null hypothesis, to wit, “One or more mistakes actually made could have been avoided through a truthfully told achievable process.” The alternative hypothesis, validated if the null hypothesis is shown false because the null and alternative hypotheses are of the nature of a pure dichotomy, is, “No mistake ever actually made could have actually been avoided.”

    I ask people to demonstrate the validity of the null hypothesis, as such demonstration would invalidate the alternate hypothesis, and no one comes forth with the necessary demonstration.

    Of course, the necessary demonstration of the validity of the null hypothesis would necessarily invalidate the law of non-contradiction, which would undermine the whole of the philosophy of intelligible logic of any coherent form, methinks.

    The difficulty methinks those of the adversarial law profession may find most discomfiting is the ease with which I, being autistic as I am, effortlessly sort out when words (connotations) are use to connote other connotations and when words (connotations) are used to connote denotations. The traditional infant-child transition, especially when it takes upon itself the form of a discontinuity, makes it awfully hard for autism-insufficient people to instantly recognize this verbal slight-of-hand for what it is — deception itself at work.

    From the front inside flap of the dust cover of S. I. Hayakawa, “Language in Thought and Action,” 1949, Harcourt Brace, “More than ever, we live in a world of words. The competition of ideologies, pressure groups, and advertised products results in the modern phenomenon of millions of dollars spent every day by people trying, in print and radio, to make up our minds for us. Until we learn how words work, what they say and what they do not say, how they may be used and abused, we are helpless victims in the age of propaganda.”

    When I learned that it is impossible for me to pay an amount I can afford to pay to an attorney, such that the attorney can inform me without error how I can forever avoid being in violation of any and every law, I find that I have been as though commanded to become a helpless victim of horrid propaganda, and that, were I to accept such an atrocious notion of myself, would have capitulated my mind to someone who has not one whit of real concern for me as an actual person.

    When one attorney comes forth and accurately informs me how I can remain an active member of human society while never, ever, being at risk of being in violation of any law, I shall concede that my view is in error, and not until then.

    You have my permission to put that in your smoke and pipette it.

    Either someone will demonstrate my work being wrong by just one actual demonstration of a mistake actually made which could have been avoided through an achievable process by demonstrating the process, or no such avoidable mistake will have been demonstrated.

    The profound difficulty I encounter with the present structure of adversarial law in the United States of America is that it simply does not matter whether anyone can obey the law, as the adversarial system defines people as being incapable of obeying the law by making the law impossible for people to obey. That is a vicious cycle trap of deception of deception to me.

    1. Truthfully describe a mistake actually already made.
    2. Truthfully describe a process through which the mistake already made could have been avoided after it was actually made.
    3. Demonstrate the actual achievable process of 1. and 2.
    4. Demonstrate 1., 2., and 3., and I shall concede that my work is wrong.

    In the absence of the demonstration of 1., 2., 3., and 4., I shall continue to explore the likelihood that a pre-historic mistake about the nature of mistakes has deceived people regarding the real nature of deception as a social process in action.

    What might be the most scary thing about my work if it prove valid? What about the liability incurred by all the false convictions throughout the whole of the life of the adversarial process of law and jurisprudence? In my work there is no liability whatsoever, because all the mistakes made were unavoidable by the fact of having happened.

    What about all the violent criminals now incarcerated who, in my work, are truly innocent? The solution is already in place, for everyone who is now incarcerated as a criminal has plausibly already demonstrated being of danger to self and others, and, presto-chango, every prison becomes renamed as a mental hospital for those found to be dangerous to self and others, and, until a person who acted out violently has worked adequately through the traumas which drove the violence, the person will be provided with such safety and care as is practical and practicable.

    Being autistic as I am, I have the beautiful gift of being able to think in pure meaning (denotation, if you prefer that word) without being encumbered by transliterating denotation into connotation to process my life experiences.

    Every unborn fetus does what I do, for want of the external references necessary for assigning connotations to denotations. The placenta is fetal, not maternal, tissue. The unborn fetus directly experiences only itself; outside phenomena are communicated to the fetus through its placenta.

    I am without amnesia for my infancy or my fetal time in utero. I was fully a person before I was born, and have remained fully a person ever since before I was born. Thus, I know and understand who I really am as no one can who successfully accomplished the socially conventional infant-child transition.

    I simply cannot be coerced by others who, in defense of their self-construct, demand of me that I mirror their failure to remain as a little child, in the way my life has allowed me to do.

    For those who deem me narcissistic because I describe my life, I have lived no other life that I can describe. Furthermore, I find that confabulating the life of another person and commanding the person to accept the confabulation (the essence of the infant-child transition as I can grasp its nature) is, to me pure abuse and trauma.

    I do not insist that anyone else believe as I believe, neither shall I allow anyone else to compel me to believe as said anyone else believes. I am a valid person who simply knows better than to retaliate in response to harm done to me by people who have not been given to retain the simple truthfulness of an unborn child throughout more than seven decades of living as has been given to me.

    The deception and dishonesty of the world of conventional human society has never been able to successfully corrupt me into believing that any mistake ever made either could or should have been avoided.

    Imagine that a baby born less than a minute ago starts to cry. Imagine that it is deemed wrong to cry. Imagine successfully punishing a baby born less than a minute ago into not crying, not ever. What would one need to do to achieve that outcome? What form would such an outcome take?

    You did not spend something like 20 years working in a place like Cook County Children’s Hospital, or something comparable for 20 years? What gives you the competence to fathom what I learned over those years as an autistic person who lives in the manner of an infant and who intuitively understands infants because they process their lives in the same way as I do; some event happens and I adapt to it as I am able to adapt and my ability to adapt is always sufficient to the needs of my life.

    You forgot your early infancy? Pity. But do not command me to make that tragic blunder just because you were overwhelmed as I was not overwhelmed.

    My late son’s and daughter-in-law’s son was, the last I heard, serving in the U.S. Army in Afghanistan.

    Where have all the flowers gone?


  385. @Maury: I don’t like paprika, but the WPA wasn’t made of paprika, and if I don’t like it, I don’t get to claim it is paprika. Paprika is a word with a pretty specific meaning, and just because I don’t like paprika does not imply everything I dislike must therefore be paprika.

    Calling the WPA “socialism” is simply bullshit; if you know what it means then that means you are willing to lie in order to trick people into hating it for being something it is not. If you claim you know and you don’t, then you are a liar.

    You are a liar and a fraud either way, Maury.


  386. Dr. Scribe:

    You are a person who, being a True Believer, keeps his critical thinking and reasoning skills in a logic-tight box.


  387. Tony C:

    OK the WPA and CCC arent socialism then, you are probably right. Much closer to communism, my bad.

    Robbing Peter to pay Paul is one or the other. In any event it isnt liberty for Peter that is for sure.


  388. Stampfor Liberal:

    Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy all good progressives.
    I should through in George H. W. Bush as well since he is a liberal country club republican. Then we decimated Yugoslavia becuase Clinton had a certain stain on a certain blue dress.

    Why would you even ask that question? You must be a simpleton, even more so than the rest of your red friends.

    And yes, you were making fun of the troops Hanoi Jane.


  389. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 8:02 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury, you are not winning. Repeating phrases without original thoughts makes you look like one of those online automatons the Air Force intelligence service is setting up to troll internet discussions in order to derail meaningful discussion that might be critical of the ruling class. Or maybe I should address you as Airman Maury? Come to think of it, you would have had to pass the ASVAB, so never mind.


  390. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 8:04 pm Otteray Scribe


  391. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 8:06 pm Otteray Scribe

    The following verse has been “accidentally” erased from public memory.

    “There was a big high wall there that tried to stop me;

    Sign was painted, it said private property;

    But on the back side it didn’t say nothing;

    That side was made for you and me.”

    – Woody Guthrie (1944)


  392. Otteray Scribe,

    Man, Pete Seeger loves this song. Here is a performance with the 2 extra verses


  393. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 8:38 pm Otteray Scribe

    Blouise, what a wonderful performance. I wish I could have been there. Also, I like Pete’s hat. I want one.


  394. Otteray Scribe,

    That was Obama’s Inauguration Concert.


  395. Dr. Scribe:

    You do understand your views are just as canned as you say mine are. It is rather funny dont you think? I see things one way and you see them exactly in reverse.

    But I have this on my side:

    “The only problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”

    It is the truth. It is an axiom, it is not a hypothesis or a premise which needs to be proved. It already has been proved, everywhere. So I do not argue, what is the point? How can I argue that truth is not truth?


  396. on 1, March 21, 2011 at 9:20 pm Otteray Scribe

    You keep talking about socialism as if you know what you are talking about. Mike, Tony and others have tried to get that across but you obstinatelly keep coming back to the socialism stuff.

    Paying your fair share to keep the government going and upkeep of the infrastructure is not socialism. It is simply paying your way. Currently, the infrastructure is falling apart. If you do not paint your house and keep the roof repaired, it will eventually fall in, just like those housed and barns you see along country roads that have been abandoned.

    There are kids right now whose only decent meals of the day are the free breakfast and lunch they get at school. Many go hungry on weekends because their parents cannot find work. Several thousand jobs in our rural county have been sent abroad, leaving a stripped tax base for the county. However, the wealthy industrialists who sent the jobs overseas wail about taxes and resent having to help pay to feed hungry kids. Apparently it is cheaper to buy a politician than to pay taxes to carry their fair share. Your lack of compassion and obvious disdain for your fellow humans is stunning. Do not forget, Greed is one of the seven deadly sins.

    Check out Matthew 19:24

    There is a lesson in there for you.


  397. Otteray,

    What rafflaw said.


  398. Maybe this will help our trolls understand…….something.


  399. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 12:02 am Buddha Is Laughing

    OS,

    ROFLOL

    I thought I had seen almost all of Abbot and Costello’s routines, but that one was a new one for me. And by the way, some outstanding troll wrangling you’ve been doing on this thread. Good show.


  400. BIL, welcome back. Hope you do not have any relapses. I am relieved to have you back to help with the tag team.

    I suppose you noticed that Brian is back, as obtuse and irrelevant as ever. One would think he might eventually get tired of studying his own navel lint.


  401. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 9:52 am J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Otteray Scribe, March 22, 2011 at 12:11 am

    BIL, welcome back. Hope you do not have any relapses. I am relieved to have you back to help with the tag team.

    I suppose you noticed that Brian is back, as obtuse and irrelevant as ever. One would think he might eventually get tired of studying his own navel lint.

    ####################################

    What is obtuse and what is irrelevant may happen to be a function of how a person has adapted to or eluded particular forms of child abuse which are endemic in contemporary world society.

    As a member of the ordained clergy in Wisconsin, I am a mandatory reporter of child abuse. I have done psychoanalytically-oriented, bioengineering-based pastoral counseling with adults who were severely abused as children, some of whom developed severe forms of mental illness as a direct result of having been abused as children.

    My work is, as best I can yet discern, obtuse and irrelevant only to people whose child abuse was such as to be so severe that it is too painful to remember and too catastrophic to forget.

    The essence of the process of child abuse is the social mechanism of teaching a child to be dishonest and then deceived regarding what is, and what is not, child abuse.

    Psychological defenses, in the sense of mental mechanisms which distort reality in the service of the (Freudian?0 ego are the evidence of child abuse, for it is being abused as a child that creates the need for distorting reality in order to effectively pretend away (or deny?) such abuse.

    I do not get tired of studying my own navel lint for the simple reason that I do not study my own navel lint. What I do is study the way psychological defenses which are the result of child abuse and the cause of child abuse in the subsequent generation function to generate forms of addiction in people who become well-adjusted to the distortions of biophysical reality which allow brain-damaged people to be as though oblivious to their brain damage and, in being oblivious and addicted to such abuse, to perpetrate abuse on the subsequent generation, as has, it appears to me, been happening for longer than the written historical record.

    The breaking of a child’s will to be honest happens when, typically at about 18 months of age, a child is coerced into falsely confessing to having been disobedient or defiant or otherwise having not done as told to do.

    However it happened, I have been given a will to be honest which has been impossible to break, even though I have been subjected to shattering torture for not being dishonest while a second grade student in the class of Miss Josephine Hanson at Marshall School in Eureka, California, during the first circa three-fourths of second grade.

    Simple random chance genetic mutations can plausibly explain my having a will to be honest which simply does not break.

    It is one thing to have an unbreakable will to be honest and quite another to be able to communicate effectively with people whose will to be honest has been broken.

    It grieves me to observe the banter of put-downs which seem to me to be the essential mechanism of comments many folks post here. All I find such banter accomplishes is reinforcing the trauma of which such banter is the overt evidence.

    Not once in my whole life have I come to believe that anyone ever does anything except as life both requires and allows. Not once in my whole life have I found any person to truthfully be at fault or to blame for anything whatsoever.

    Why do I not tire of the work I do? Perhaps it is because I wait upon the Lord, as in Isaiah 40:31, “But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run and not be weary, and they shall walk, and not faint.”

    Please recall that I reside in Wisconsin and that, in accord with the Wisconsin Constitution, my right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of my conscience shall not be abridged.

    My doctoral dissertation, in essence, is a demonstration that the teachings of Jesus, interpreted through sufficiently rigorous biophysics, are impossible to refute. Sufficiently rigorous biophysics have only recently arrived on the scene of actual existence.

    There are a few particularly significant events in my life which I here choose to mention. I expect no one to believe what I here write save as a particular person’s conscience asks for belief.

    Before I was a year of age, taken to church every Sunday, with my dad as the minister, a minister who believed that a newborn baby was fully a complete person, and who planned his sermons to be no less meaningful to a young infant as to anyone of any older age, and a minister who deemed science and religion to be one and the same, thus inseparable, in fact and truth, I was exposed to religious teaching that always made sense to me because it was my dad’s understanding that any religious notion not intelligible was likely false.

    Every Sunday, certain aspects of church repeated, and, in particular, the “Lord’s Prayer” early garnered my attention. The original understanding of that prayer has never changed for me, though the words I use to tell of my understanding have changed somewhat as I learned more word-use skills.

    Put in the words I now find best describe my understanding of the Lord’s Prayer ever since I first understood it, to me, the Lord’s Prayer is, “Lord, God, Almighty, give to me that which I need that I may best serve you. Nevertheless, not my will but your will be done. For this, I pray through Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. So be it. May my whole life be this prayer. Amen.”

    I have no evidence that my life is not the fulfillment of that prayer, for, in praying it as an infant, I withheld nothing of my life from it.

    When people treated me with shattering cruelty, I forgave them instantly. Forgiving instantly did not take from me the trauma of having been terribly abused; it did, however, allow me to never, never ever, retaliate.

    On Monday, March, 14, 1960, after lunch, I went to my swimming class in the Carleton College pool in the basement of Sayles-Hill Gymnasium. I had, with Red Cross Water Safety Instructor supervision, been practicing underwater swimming, and could swim three lengths of the pool without coming up for air.

    During the eve and early morning of March 14, 1960, I had been helping time lunar occultations of stars during a lunar eclipse at the Goodsell Observatory at Carleton. Perhaps I was somewhat tired after spending much of the night at the observatory. Perhaps I hyperventilated, lost too much carbon dioxide and blacked out because of that. At the very start of the time in the pool, I pushed off from the shallow end, and got to near the middle of the pool and my body sank to the bottom of the pool. The class had in place a proper buddy system and all the usual precautions; nonetheless, after the class had ended, no one was aware that I had been in the class. The last student to leave the pool, one who walked slowly because of a vision issue, had turned off the lights and walked into the adjacent shower room when, as he later told me, he was turned around, something about the pool did not look right to him, he called out, and some of the students took my body from the pool and notified the college physician. One student got dressed and hurried to my dorm room and told one of my roommates about the swimming pool incident. This roommate got to the pool about five minutes after my body had been taken from the pool, and I was not breathing and the college physician could detect no heartbeat. The physician had asked the college nurse to get a syringe of epinephrine, and, there being nothing to lose, injected it directly into my heart as my roommate watched. My heart started beating, according to my roommate, I coughed up a little water and some of my lunch, and began to breathe. When my heart started, I had not been breathing for at least 35 minutes.

    Expecting drastic brain damage, the physician had an EEG machine brought from the Twin Cities, and was rather astonished to find my EEG to be quite normal, with no evidence of brain damage, although total brain death is usual in a fraction of the time I had not been breathing and the swimming pool was warm and nothing close to the near freezing temperature at which people sometimes survive more than half an hour without breathing.

    What I remember (memory can be false memory) was my finding myself (sans body) as though in the presence of all the power there will ever be, in the place from which the biblical god was made, and from which I could observe the seventh heaven described by the Prophet Mohammad in his night ascension. I remember (or falsely remember?) describing, not in words, the difficulties of my life as an autistic person who had not gone through the infant-child transition and who had met with shattering abuse time after time in my efforts to connect with human society. At the end of my describing the difficulties of my life up to then, I asked, not in words, if it was a time when I might be free of a life of such difficulty. In return, all the power there will ever be asked me, not in words a question, which, in words may seem not like a question, words being, “There is more that you may do?” To which I replied with, not in words, but put into words to write this, “All right?” I understand that it was then that the last student to leave the pool was turned around.

    If your life experience does not include not breathing and not in cold enough water to prevent brain death, for more than twice what ought to cause totally irreversible brain death and come out of the experience without a hint of a trace of any brain damage, then perhaps your life experiences do not adequately qualify you to properly judge my life experiences and my life work.

    If you have not been a chronic psychiatric inpatient, whose psychiatric care led to a profound, oriented-times-zero dementia and recovered from such dementia (similar to very advanced Alzheimer’s), then perhaps your life experiences are sufficiently different from my life experiences as to not allow you to adequately judge my life and my life work.

    I judge no person, I find no fault with any person, and I care about the children of the future, that there may be children of the future, and in so caring, choose to do everything I can possibly do to understand child abuse well enough that effective prevention of child abuse, social conventions and social traditions notwithstanding, may become achievable while it is yet possible for children to be born.

    What I have here written, I have written without my using deception in any way, form, or manner whatsoever. Whether what I have here written will be accurately understood by anyone other than myself is outside my locus of control.

    I have a faith in what is, to me, “God,” that simply does not break. I trust existence and the process of existence absolutely, perfectly, and without any limit of any sort.

    My life is not about me.

    Every moment of my life in which I have been presented with the choice between the narrow path that leads to integrity and to life, I have chosen that narrow path. For this I take neither blame nor credit.

    If humanity ever learns to walk away from hatred and its ilk, such as war and crime, someone will have to walk the path well enough to demonstrate its being achievable. Toward such possibility, I have asked that my entire life be directed.

    And I am not alone in doing this, yet each person doing as I do does so in unique ways.

    For me, the path I have asked to be allowed to take is the path of being as though a little child whose ability to learn and understand is unfettered by deception and dishonesty, and thereby to lead only by example those willing to learn to walk away from hatred how it may be accomplished by first doing it for real in my own life. And I am not alone in this, either.

    Thus, I describe the life I live as I am able to describe it, and I allow whosoever can make any use of what I describe to make such use as anyone finds useful.

    The irony of deception is that those who have been overcome by deception cannot believe that someone like me can actually exist, and that is the nature of the vicious cycle of the dance of deception itself.

    Deception teaches those it deceives that they have not been deceived.

    It is not better to be not deceived than to be deceived, for each individual life, regardless of situation or circumstances, has the same value, the value being that of one person’s life.

    What may really be obtuse and irrelevant is playing king of the mountain as in the bantering of epithets for which this blawg may be particularly noted, as though there is a mountain in need of a king.

    Because I am not of the authoritarian sort, I neither expect, nor do not expect, anything I do to be understood by anyone else.

    It is not my present purpose to be understood by other people, but to better understand other people.

    And the legal theory question in my mind about adversarial law being deceptive by merely being adversarial lingers on.


  402. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 10:13 am Buddha Is Laughing

    What you are is a troll promoting antisocial bullshit based on circular logic and your personal vendetta against the legal system, Brian.

    Adversity does not arise from the system, but rather the adversarial process arises from the inherent adversity in the conflicts it is designed to address. It is a superior model to the inquisitorial courts as it allows all sides to have their arguments heard and to present their evidence while putting the judge in a neutral position outside the evidentiary gathering process.

    This will remain a fact no matter how many times you bleat to the contrary, oh long winded one.

    Also, it is not an invalidation of your person to say you are completely and utterly full of shit. That’s an invalidation of your statements. If you take that personally? That’s your problem. Just one among many it appears.


  403. Brian sez:
    “Because I am not of the authoritarian sort, I neither expect, nor do not expect, anything I do to be understood by anyone else.”

    *********************************************

    It appears that our friend Brian has about the same level of understanding of what ‘authoritarian’ means as our other trolls understand the concept of ‘socialism’ or ‘communism.’ Based on context, such as I can dig out from among all the verbal diarrhea you produced, you do not understand the word. Authoritative appears to be what you meant, although there is no way to be certain, since your reasoning, as Buddha says, is circular to the point of being incoherent.

    Brian, you create a conundrum for yourself that attaches directly to your lack of social skills. You say that you do not expect to be understood by anyone else. If that is the case, why do you persist in shoving long, rambling incoherent (and by your own admission, meaningless) comments into the discussion? The only effect they have is to derail meaningful discussions other people may be having. It is the equivalent of coming into one of our office meetings and insisting on discussing things that are not on the agenda, should not be on the agenda, never will in this lifetime be on the agenda, and will be disregarded by others–while at the same time, pissing everyone off.

    There is a clinical name for that: Narcissism. Look it up.


  404. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 10:39 am Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    I am Auntee Soical. I have a good deal of study in the social phenomenal of dissuading logicalness arguments. As you can see I am 3 degreed. It was one pile on the other until I was forced to leave due to other antisocial supercritical people surrounding me. I have a sister that was not married and had a child out of wedlock which made me an aunt. We in the central part of Wisconsin prefer to go back to our roots and be called auntee. We were going to make a movie but saw that it one had been made about roots. We are all white and we saw that it was about a black family. We could not be seen with people like that as we are of Norwegian Ancestry. Not many of my relatives were seen hanging in trees. I am sure that is not true for other people. Before my family came to the US they fished in the Norwegian Sea and search high and low for the Norwega Fish. It is like salmon but its is Norwegian so you know it is better. You know those Norwega people. They are very industrious. Thank you, I must go back to call my other cousin Brian as the cousins Darryl and Darryl are busy today. The found a cousin in the woods. Well you know what they say about cousins and a woodpile.


  405. Brain, jokes and snark are supposed to be funny. You are not only not funny, you are not even mildly amusing.

    Sockpuppet accounts are not funny either. In fact, on most blogs if you get caught making sockpuppet accounts you get banned.


  406. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 10:45 am Buddha Is Laughing

    You in central WI who give out phone numbers in suburban Chicago?

    Obfuscating troll is as obfuscating troll does.


  407. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 10:58 am Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    It is hard to be understood when you don’t understand yourself. Life is a imitator or immoral perfection.


  408. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 10:58 am Stamford Liberal

    Stampfor Liberal:

    Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy all good progressives.
    I should through in George H. W. Bush as well since he is a liberal country club republican. Then we decimated Yugoslavia becuase Clinton had a certain stain on a certain blue dress.

    Why would you even ask that question? You must be a simpleton, even more so than the rest of your red friends.

    And yes, you were making fun of the troops Hanoi Jane.

    ——————————————————–

    Maury, et al,

    You make this too easy, son.

    Wilson didn’t start WWI. Serbia did.
    FDR didn’t start WWII. Germany did.
    Truman didn’t start the Korean War. North Korea did.
    Kennedy inherited Vietnam from Eisenhower, a Republican.
    Oh, no, you don’t. Both Bush Boys are all yours, sport.
    Clinton didn’t start the Bosnian conflict. The Serbians did.

    Simpleton? Me? Project much, boy?

    Once again, you display your utter and complete lack of reading comprehension. I’ve given you two chances, yet, you still do not have the ability to comprehend. Okay, retard. I see I have to point it out to you – I was making fun of you, boy. You. For as much as you’ve deluded yourself that I was making fun of the troops, facts say otherwise. I was making fun, not with you, but at you. Jesus H. Christ, you are stupid.

    Hanoi Jane? Nope. I’m far too young. But I like her as an actress so thanks for the compliment.


  409. @Maury: But I have this on my side: “The only problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”

    That isn’t true either. It assumes that socialism is taking some finite resource that belongs to people, and that simply isn’t true.

    While it is true that individuals are finite beings with finite property, one of the things that people do is create new people. In fact they do it so often, they have a name for it; I think it is “Parenthood.” Anyway, call it what you will, the more interesting point is that for about 200,000 years there have always been some of these modern humans living on the planet, and these people have been doing something they call “work” not only to feed themselves and their “children” in these finite lives, but to generate new wealth. Often modestly; but particularly in the last few centuries they have gotten better at it. This wealth is fairly robust and can accumulate; one form of it is understanding of the physical world and how to manipulate it, and this understanding has frequently been used to increase the rate at which wealth can be generated.

    Those rate increases also accumulate; and that translates into an exponential growth of wealth accumulation. There is no reason to believe any of that will stop in the next hundred years or so; barring natural disasters like a runaway greenhouse effect.

    So the truth is that as long as we scale our taxation to the rate of increase, we would never run out. To put it in more simplistic terms: If we taxed income at 50% forever, we would never run out; both the income and the taxes would grow in lockstep forever. Two hundred years from now adults will be working and generating new value and doing it far more efficiently than we do today; and thus generating far more wealth than we do today, and if we taxed it at 50% they would still have a far higher standard of living than we do today, and so would the poorest sectors of their economy.


  410. “Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd”

    Brian,

    You may well have all the degrees you claim, but you lack the ability to alter your writing style.


  411. Tony C. & SL,

    Great points made in demolishing the fallacious arguments. You did that despite the fact that he is unable to do anything but regurgitate propaganda, so you deserve greater kudo’s for making interesting the shooting of a sitting duck. For now my meager contribution is:

    Maury = Ignorant Schmuck


  412. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 12:56 pm Stamford Liberal

    Mike S,

    “Maury = Ignorant Schmuck”

    I love the word “schmuck.” Such a small word that says so much!


  413. “I love the word “schmuck.” Such a small word that says so much!”

    SL

    Yiddish is a great language for expressing certain descriptions of people and their peculiarities. I could speak it when I was young, but today I have lost much of it. Nevertheless certain phrases and word stick with me. Chutzpah is another one that’s found its way into common usage. In truth I couldn’t think of a better description for him because beside its’ connotation of someone who is an ass, there is a subtext to it that indicates someone who is also to be pitied. To me there is a pathos to him and his opinions and in a sense I think he is trying hard to be well thought of, but either doesn’t know how, or likes his pay.


  414. @Mike: On Yiddish: Remember the theme song from Laverne and Shirley? I love the common description of the Yiddish terms they use in that song (“Schlemiel! Schlimazel! Hassenpfeff Incorporated!”): A schlemiel is a guy that spills his soup, a schlimazel is the guy he spills it on.

    (i.e. clumsy, and unlucky.)


  415. Tony C:

    We are not creating what we used to, at least in this country. We are a nation of consumers, you cannot build an economy on consumption alone. Something must be produced. But the environmental left has made that almost impossible.

    We will not see a higher standard of living in this country unless we quit doing business as usual. The Romans didn’t think they would go down either, look how long it took the world to recover from their demise. Thankfully China and India are producing.

    We are headed toward a 3rd world future unless we stop with the collectivism.


  416. Mike Spindell:

    They haven’t demolished anything, they just use the platitudes/propaganda of the left.

    I find it funny how left wing talking points/propaganda are thought superior to right wing talking points/propaganda on a left wing blog. Who would have thought?

    Half the time Dr. Scribe obfuscates or goes off on some other duck hunt and doesn’t even address an issue.

    Tony C makes an attempt to answer a question even though he is wrong.

    But thanks for analysing me, how much do I owe you?


  417. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 3:47 pm Stamford Liberal

    Mike S,

    My ex-husband is Jewish and his grandmother spoke Yiddish. Whenever she saw me should would announce, “Here comes the Goy!” I loved that woman.

    I think my absolute favorite, by far, is meshugener. It was one of the first words she taught me and would always say it to her daughter, my ex-mother-in-law … good times!

    It’s not an easy language – I have a newfound respect for you as a result :)


  418. @Maury: On the contrary; if I am wrong then you are incapable of producing a system that works.

    Suppose, in order to provide just police and courts and a Defensive Military to enforce contracts in a Libertarian / Corporate free for all, we taxed income at just 10% (as Ron Paul recently suggested would be enough).

    There are two possibilities: Either you think that taking 10% of income in order to have a rule of law society is going to eventually drain “other people’s money,” or you do not really believe it.

    If you do believe it, meaning 10% is too much, then the only system you believe in is complete anarchy. If that is true, you are too stupid to continue discussing this with; we have no common ground upon which to base such a discussion.

    If you do not believe it, then common sense should tell you that 10% is not a magic number, and not the absolute upper limit of what is possible. 11% could be done; the difference between keeping 89% of the average income and keeping 90% is miniscule.

    Of course it isn’t always, if we go to extremes the difference will be felt. But 10% is not a magic number, it is a number Ron Paul pulled out of his ass and paraded on stage.

    In fact, the vast majority of people pay at least 28%. Sales taxes eat up another 5% to 10%. Yet people live entire normal lives with this tax burden and never, ever run out of money.

    So ultimately what it means is that if Ron Paul is correct, and the military, police and courts can be taken care of by a 10% income tax, then social programs could be funded with another x%, without ever running out of people earning income, and your silly aphorism is proven wrong.

    Of course funding social programs is not “socialism” in the first place; so I am arguing with either an illiterate buffoon or a purpooseful liar. But maybe you aren’t the only person reading.


  419. @Maury: We will not see a higher standard of living in this country unless we quit doing business as usual.

    You mean as a corrupt government in league with a professionally criminal corporate structure using a runaway military to loot the United States, fleece its citizens with Ponzi schemes and toilet-paper contracts, and the rest of the world along with us? I’m with ya on that one, bucko.


  420. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 4:40 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Otteray Scribe, March 22, 2011 at 10:44 am

    Brain, jokes and snark are supposed to be funny. You are not only not funny, you are not even mildly amusing.

    Sockpuppet accounts are not funny either. In fact, on most blogs if you get caught making sockpuppet accounts you get banned.

    #####################################

    I am not intending to be even slightly funny nor at all amusing.

    Furthermore, I am rather clueless as to who posted as “Auntee Social.” I do not have a masters degree.

    Because of the NSPE Code of Ethics regarding deception in the practice of professional engineering being prohibited, I only post using my real name.

    If Professor Turley were to suspect that I am posting under an alias, which I am not doing, it would take a super-Internet-genius beyond what I deem likely to make the URI for “Auntee Social” match any URI coming from me. I do not do sockpuppetry, I deem it would be profoundly unethical and a clear violation of my Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer license.

    While I am telling as truthfully as words allow me, of my work, I deem it proper to point out that the dream during which I got the core ideas for my Bioengineering Ph.D. came to me on the eve and morning of Thanksgiving, 1987, when I was an inpatient on the fifth floor unit of Charter Barclay Hospital, in Chicago, and “on fifteens.” This dream is mentioned in my dissertation.

    I continue to study the legal theory question which led me to this Turley blawg. That question can be stated in many ways, one of which is, “Is it decent to impose a system of laws on a person if the system of laws is such as to make it impossible for the person upon whom the system is imposed to understand the laws the person is required to avoid violating?

    My view is simply that such a system of laws inextricably generates some form of disrespect for the system, if only because such a system first disrespects the person.

    Did I miss a reply comment about this, one in which my concern was diligently addressed as a real and valid concern? If there has been such a comment, please inform me as to the date and time in the archives.


  421. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 4:58 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Buddha Is Laughing, March 22, 2011 at 10:13 am

    What you are is a troll promoting antisocial bullshit based on circular logic and your personal vendetta against the legal system, Brian.

    Adversity does not arise from the system, but rather the adversarial process arises from the inherent adversity in the conflicts it is designed to address. It is a superior model to the inquisitorial courts as it allows all sides to have their arguments heard and to present their evidence while putting the judge in a neutral position outside the evidentiary gathering process.

    This will remain a fact no matter how many times you bleat to the contrary, oh long winded one.

    Also, it is not an invalidation of your person to say you are completely and utterly full of shit. That’s an invalidation of your statements. If you take that personally? That’s your problem. Just one among many it appears.

    ########################################

    BiL,

    You continue to give me interesting data. Thanks.

    The movie, Dances with Wolves, may have within it an illustration of a useful alternative to adversarial process in the presence of disagreement. The alternative to adversarial process in the presence of disagreement has been called “dialogue.” It has been studied at the Sloan School of Business at MIT and elsewhere.

    It is impossible for me to be full of fecal matter because my colon was removed by Dr. Ernestine Hambrick, at Michael Reese Hospital, in the summer of 1986. I have no significant space left for storing fecal matter, and therefore, though I do not question your sincerity about this, I do need, for the sake of truthfulness, to keep drawing attention to your mistaken belief.

    One reference regarding Familial Adenomatous Polyposis is on the National Institutes of Health web site, at:

    http://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/GARD/Condition/6408/Familial_adenomatous_polyposis.aspx

    A Google search for “familial adenomatous polyposis” that I did a few minutes ago gave me over 300,000 results, not a small number for a rare genetic condition?

    I am slowly getting a sense that it may be the sort of beliefs that I find that you, BiL, are espousing that may be a significant contributor to suicides among autism spectrum people.


  422. From Think Progress (3/22/2011)
    REPORT: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Class
    http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/22/estate-tax-vs-middle-class-report/

    Last week, ThinkProgress documented conservative efforts in twelve states to shift the tax burden onto the middle class even while cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy. In three states, conservatives are going even further, proposing massive estate tax cuts for millionaires even as income inequality is at its worse since the 1920s. Here are the details:

    MAINE: Tea Party Gov. Paul LePage’s (I) tax reform package would raise the state’s estate tax exemption from $1 million to $2 million — allowing four hundred of the state’s wealthiest estates to escape taxation. At the same time, the tax plan would raise property taxes on middle class Mainers while freezing health care funding for working parents, cutting money for schools, and raising the retirement age for public workers. Republican legislators want to go even further, and are currently considering eliminating the estate tax altogether.

    OHIO: In January, House Speaker William Batchelder (R) called Gov. John Kasich’s (R) proposal to completely eliminate the estate tax one of the Republican-controlled legislature’s “top priorities.” But already, the bill has garnered strong opposition from local governments, who depend on estate tax revenue and are already concerned state spending cuts. Even while finding room for estate tax reductions, Kasich’s proposed budget cuts 25 percent of funding for local schools, $427 million for nursing homes, $1 million for food banks, $12 million from children’s hospitals, and $15.9 million from an adoption program for children with special needs.

    NEW JERSEY: In his 2011 budget proposal, Gov. Chris Christie called for raising the state’s estate tax exemption from $675,000 to $1 million even while proposing cuts to the state’s Earned Income Tax Credit and homestead rebates for working poor families. And last year Christie vetoed a bill passed by the Legislature that would have raised taxes on the state’s millionaires to help fund property tax relief for Main Street.

    Last December, the federal government set the precedent for estate tax cuts when the bi-partisan tax deal signed by President Obama cut the estate tax rate to its second lowest level since 1931.

    – Kevin Donohoe


  423. From Think Progress (3/22/20110)
    Strong Plurality Of Michigan Voters Support Amending State Constitution To Protect Collective Bargaining
    http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/22/poll-supports-collective-bargaining-amendment/


  424. Great updates Elaine! The news of the voter support in Michigan is good news.


  425. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 6:09 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Well Brian, the relevant part of your behavior isn’t your alleged autism, but rather your antisocial propaganda trollery, Mr. Represents Himself as Being in Wisconsin and Gives Out Chicago Phone Numbers. Even if you have autism – which as I’ve said before I seriously doubt – it is not an excuse for you simply being a tyranny supporting narcissistic asshat. Ill does not preclude evil. And if I can inspire propaganda trolls who operate against the best interests of U.S. citizens and against the Constitution to harm themselves? Regardless of their health? All I can really say is . . .

    One lives to be of service.

    I now return you to your regular circular ramblings.


  426. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 6:21 pm Stamford Liberal

    Thanks, Elaine M – the updates are appreciated!


  427. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 6:45 pm Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    It is true, Brian the Brain does have something. We are all unsure of what it might be. He has been acting out on many different levels. If you all could contact him at the phone number that he provided I will make sure someone does answer. If no one can answer the please leave a message and your phone call will be returned. I too live to be of service and I am better equipped to handle all of the BS that comes my way as you can see I am degreed and have BS after my name. Please do not fling your BS further than you can smell it. It is sad when everyone has to experience the depreciation of the rambling of everyone on here that does not have anything to say half way intelligent. It hurts my soul when people cannot get along. I will pray for you who say you are Christians and act in another manner in words, deeds and actions. Thank you for taking time to read this. I know it is rather difficult as I suffer from abstractionism. It may have been that stamp that I licked a few years ago.


  428. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 10:43 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Buddha Is Laughing, March 22, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    Well Brian, the relevant part of your behavior isn’t your alleged autism, but rather your antisocial propaganda trollery, Mr. Represents Himself as Being in Wisconsin and Gives Out Chicago Phone Numbers. Even if you have autism – which as I’ve said before I seriously doubt – it is not an excuse for you simply being a tyranny supporting narcissistic asshat. Ill does not preclude evil. And if I can inspire propaganda trolls who operate against the best interests of U.S. citizens and against the Constitution to harm themselves? Regardless of their health? All I can really say is . . .

    One lives to be of service.

    I now return you to your regular circular ramblings.

    ######################################

    I have never posted a comment on the Turley Blawg using anything other than my real name with suffixes, as in this comment.

    Someone, I have no idea who, is playing around in a way I do not understand, and whoever it is has apparently fooled some others on this blawg that I am using a fake name.

    That simply is not true. I have not had a Chicago phone number since 1972, when I moved to Oak Park, Illinois.

    Where I live is trivial for anyone to find out; as a Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer, my address is simple to find on the Wisconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing web site.

    The use of pseudonyms, such as Buddha Is Laughing, allows for all sorts of deceptions other forms of dishonesty which my using my actual and readily verified name precludes.

    I understand that the Internet URI/URL/URN/IP-Address I use is readily available to Professor Turley. I am not deceptive as to who I am or the nature of my work as a bioengineer.

    I do find it curious that whoever has been concocting false identities which some people who comment on the Turley blawg believe is a false persona (or sockpuppeteering tomfoolery?) has apparently been able to trick you, BiL, and perhaps others, into thinking I am doing something I simply am not doing, and which, were I doing it, would be proper cause for revocation of my license as a Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer.

    It does begin to make a trace of sense to me that someone who can believe I have posted pseudonymous remarks which I have not posted could also believe my work to be not of scientifically valid bioengineering.

    It also is beginning to make some trace of sense to me that someone who believes that the adversarial system of jurisprudence is not intrinsically deceptive might easily be deceived about many other things of serious importance.

    I am beginning to wonder whether the Stockholm Effect, as an aspect of the deception process of the displacement mechanism of addiction may sometimes result in trauma-induced insensitivity to some aspects of serious forms of child abuse.

    I am not being deceptive and I have never posted a deceptive comment on the Turley blawg.

    Professor Turley surely has access to the email address I am using and I really doubt that the “tricksters” have found a way to know what that email address is; I have some email addresses which are real and for which I pay regular fees, yet which are not particularly public, and one such is the only one I have ever used in posting comments on this Turley blawg.

    Perhaps the trickster, who is absolutely not me, has figured out that my work is real and is playing around for reasons I cannot begin to guess with those who do not yet get the fact that I am a real bioengineer doing work possibly of the form of a new scientific paradigm.

    I anticipated the possibility of someone “playing games,” and therefor made certain that my identity can easily and consistently be determined by Professor Turley or someone he asks, such as a computer expert at George Washington University, to verify that the comments of whoever is “playing around” are not from me.

    And, yes, I did live and work in the inner city in Chicago, and, yes, the photograph my sister-in-law has of my dad’s mother has been readily recognized by “black people” as being a photograph of a “black person.”

    And yes, as a bioengineer and therefore a biologist, I observe that there is only one human race, and it is of diverse color, so all humans are colored people. I never got to the southern states during the era of “whites only” and “colored,” but would automatically have used only the such facilities as were for those people who are not white but colored.

    I objected a while ago to the cleansing of Tom Sawyer and such because it is important to remember how terrible prejudice can be for those who are treated with derision and prejudice for being “different.” By mere exposure, I picked up a little of ebonics, perhaps enough for someone proficient in that language to realize my deep and abiding concern about prejudice and the harm prejudice does.

    Alas, I find the notion that people make mistakes they ought not make is itself a very damaging form of prejudice, yet one I find inseparable from the adversarial system at its core. To me, the very notion of adversariality as a necessary aspect of life is prejudicial.

    The adversarial system of jurisprudence is in absolute violation of my conscience.


  429. on 1, March 22, 2011 at 10:59 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Blah blah blah troll boy.

    Pssst! You shouldn’t try to use sockpuppets. You’re not a good enough writer to pull it off.


  430. BIL, I cannot get over how mind-numbingly boring Brian is. He is rude beyond belief in hijacking and disrupting serious discussions with his endless blathering. If he could write coherent English sentences and paragraphs it would be one thing: however, he puts George Bulwer-Lytton to in the second string for being the worst writer ever. His writing style is so awful, I have nothing with which to compare it.


  431. What’s happening in Ohio:

    From Think Progress (3/22/2011)
    Gov. Kasich’s Jobs Plan: Drink More Booze, Hand The Profits To A Private Development Company
    http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2011/03/22/kasich-drunkohio/

    Gov. John Kasich (R-OH) has played a leading role in the Republican assault on workers’ rights, pursuing a bill to strip his state’s public employees of collective bargaining rights. But he has also been actively pushing his state’s assets into the hands of private corporations, with his main job creation plan being the formation of JobsOhio, a private entity that will be tasked with coaxing business into the Buckeye state. Similar schemes have not worked in other states, but Kasich has plowed forward nonetheless.

    Part of Kasich’s plan for financing his new, privatized development agency (of which he will be chairman) includes leasing the state’s liquor stores to JobsOhio, which will then use the money to run its operations. Kasich claims that this will work because Ohioans are increasing their alcohol consumption:

    The success of Gov. John Kasich’s plan to recruit new business to Ohio will hinge heavily on just how much Ohioans drink alcohol. Kasich last week unveiled his state budget proposal, which includes a plan to lease the state’s liquor distribution operation — which of late has drawn record profits — and use the cash to fund his private economic development machine.

    “Over the years people drink more. It’s just a natural revenue stream,” Kasich said last Tuesday while outlining his proposal, drawing a smattering of laughter from reporters. “So, everybody wanted to buy it. Everybody was interested in it.”

    Whether Ohio’s best “natural” asset is its booze intake is up for debate. But all jokes about Ohio’s increasing drunkenness aside, a deeper look at the numbers indicates that Ohio is getting the short end of the stick on this deal. As Ohio Budget Watch found, Kasich’s plan involves the state selling about $7 billion in expected revenue from state liquor stores to JobsOhio for just $1.5 billion:

    Profits on liquor sales generate $228 million for the state of Ohio every year. JobsOhio is set to take over liquor sales oversight and own that revenue stream. They, in turn, will sell 30 years worth of that revenue — worth around $6.8 billion — to a group of investors (recruited by a Wall Street firm, who will of course take a cut) in return for a lump sum payment to the state. According to the administration, they expect to receive about $1.5 billion in return for this $6+ billion in state revenue.

    And because JobsOhio doesn’t actually have any money to pay even the $1.5 billion, it will “turn to Wall Street to issue bonds to finance the deal.” As Plunderbund noted, “Wall Street, which obviously expects a return on its investment, won’t finance the deal unless Ohio (i.e. Kasich) is willing to allow them to essentially buy a twenty to thirty year revenue stream for pennies on the dollar.” Thus, Kasich is selling his state’s liquor stores at fire-sale prices, even as it faces billions in deficits.


  432. From The Raw Story (3/22/2011)
    Top 6 things Republicans consider more important than job creation
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/22/top-6-things-republicans-consider-more-important-than-job-creation/

    Excerpt:
    WASHINGTON – Republicans won dramatic victories last November by promising to mitigate high unemployment. “This coming election is about one issue: jobs,” to-be Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) said weeks before election day. “It’s about jobs that were promised to the American people by the current administration, and were never delivered.”

    But in the three months since taking over the House and expanding their voices in the Senate, Republicans have yet to pass a jobs-focused bill, instead prioritizing numerous social and cultural issues that are unrelated to job creation — and have little or no chance of becoming policy.

    Here are six such legislative goals they’ve been hard at work on.

    1) Curtailing Abortion Rights

    A top priority for Republicans, H.R. 3, “The No Taxpayer Funding For Abortion Act” is on its way to passage in the House after successfully maneuvering through the Judiciary and Ways And Means Committees.

    Though the GOP stripped out some of its most controversial provisions — such as denying exemptions to a woman even in cases of rape, incest and when her life is in danger — the measure raises costs for businesses by eliminating tax deductions on employee health insurance plans that cover abortion.

    2) Defunding Planned Parenthood

    The House last month approved a measure 240-185, sponsored by Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN), to cut off all $317 million in Title X funding for Planned Parenthood and all other health care providers that offer abortions.

    Under the law, Title X money cannot be used for abortion, so — beyond the shot across Planned Parenthood’s bow — Republicans effectively voted to strip funding enjoyed by mostly low-income women for medical services like cancer screenings, breast exams and HIV tests.

    3) Defunding NPR

    In the wake of James O’Keefe’s highly edited video sting that defamed National Public Radio executives, House Republicans last week called an emergency session to push through legislation that eliminates taxpayer funds to the radio-based news agency. It passed 228-192 on a partisan vote, winning over no Democrats and losing 7 Republicans.


  433. Tony C:

    Taxes should be voluntary, and no I am not an anarchist. You have to have some government to protect people like me from people like you.

    Taxes are not about taxes but about how much of an individuals life should be give up for the state. Taxes are nothing but money earned by labor which is nothing but time you spend, time from your life I might add. So how much time do you owe the state? Black slaves owed all or most of their time to the Master.

    So how much time do we owe to the state (our master)? 10% should be enough to do everything or even 15% total all taxes; state, federal, local, sales, property. Your 28% number is based on federal only, when you add in the others it can be over 50% of a persons income. At that point you really are not a free individual but a serf to the feudal lord in his castle in DC.

    It all comes down to individual liberty, and the left is decidedly not on the side of freedom. At every turn they desire to limit our freedoms. Taxes are just one way.


  434. Kasich sounds a little bit shaky with that idea. He should have leased it to a private company to run it and use the profits to pay down debt. That way he takes the burden of payroll and expenses from state funds and uses it as a cash cow for the state.

    the only way to get business into a state is tax incentives and a favorable regulatory environment. You don’t need a committee which is being funded by Wall St. Sounds more like a way for Kasich to line his pockets than to stimulate business.


  435. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:33 am Otteray Scribe

    “Taxes should be voluntary.” If I did not know our troll was serious, I would think it were snark.

    A total lack of understanding of the underpinnings of civilization. Also a total lack of understanding of human nature. How much do you think the Koch crime family would “contribute” to the common good, voluntarily? There are philanthropists among the well to do, but there are a lot more ‘takers’ than ‘givers.’ The average teabagger knowledge of the Constitution and obligation to the community is somewhere between nil and none. The motivation is clearly greed rather than giving and support for the community. Such people are despicable human beings who take from the less well off to make sure the rich get richer. They have drunk the Kool-Aid for sure.

    They have forgotten, or never knew, one of the most important lessons: Luke 10:30-37


  436. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:36 am Anonymously Yours

    OS,

    They are all for Caesar…..even McDonalds offers it…(I think)…see…..


  437. Tony C:

    “You mean as a corrupt government in league with a professionally criminal corporate structure using a runaway military to loot the United States, fleece its citizens with Ponzi schemes and toilet-paper contracts, and the rest of the world along with us? I’m with ya on that one, bucko.”

    Yes that is about right, although I disagree on the causes and some of the particulars. But all in all, that is about what is going on.

    We can throw in Obama’s recent adventure in Libya without so much as a Constitutional hidiho and I think you have it covered. Welcome to Fascist America. I cant believe it happened in my life time and there seems to be no stopping it.

    I think someone mentioned ovens on another thread, I doubt it will be ovens but concentration/detention centers? Those I can believe.

    It has been coming for a long time, incrementally but the last 10 years seem the worse. Afghanistan and Iraq sped it up along with DHS and the Patriot Act. Those 2 things need to be shut down before it is too late. Maybe it already is. Once you create an entity like DHS it has a life of its own and any threat to the lively hood of the people who work there will be thwarted with force.

    But then what did you expect from big government?

    “A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.”

    Gerald Ford

    It is doing so at an alarming rate through the inflationary policies of the Federal Reserve.


  438. “I think my absolute favorite, by far, is meshugener”

    “A schlemiel is a guy that spills his soup, a schlimazel is the guy he spills it on.”

    SL & Ton


  439. Dr. Scribe:

    I don’t think that Luke 10:30-37 is apt. Jesus is talking about someone who has been injured and is totally unable to help himself.

    Neither I nor any other conservatives/tea partiers/etc that I know are against helping someone who is truly in need. We object to those who are mentally and physically able to work who don’t.

    I know a guy that can hardly move but he gets up everyday and works, he doesn’t ask for anything from the state. He pays people to cut his lawn and do the stuff around the house he cant. I have offered to do these things for him and he tells me he does not want charity or sympathy.

    Whenever I see some ignorant fuck receiving government charity/handouts who can walk and think, I think of my friend and I want to bitch slap the lazy fuck taking the handout. My friend and people like him are paying for those scum bags to live. Seems to me those poor excuses for human beings ought to be lined up at my friends house doing his yard work and helping out around his house.


  440. “You take my life when you take the means whereby I live.”

    – William Shakespeare


  441. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 9:33 am Otteray Scribe

    Maury, I feel sorry for you. I truly pity you. EOM


  442. Dr. Scribe:

    No need to.


  443. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 10:41 am Stamford Liberal

    OS,

    “A total lack of understanding of the underpinnings of civilization. Also a total lack of understanding of human nature.”

    Did you really expect the troll to get it? Surely you jest, sir!

    “How much do you think the Koch crime family would “contribute” to the common good, voluntarily?”

    Of course the Koch Brothers would contribute to the community! As you can see from the below link, they are active partners in the community!

    http://www.kochfamilyfoundations.org/img/sectionImages/davidandJulia.jpg

    Just think of all the starving millionaires, billionaires and ballet dancers they are saving!

    Ballerina’s – not just for breakfast anymore!


  444. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 11:17 am J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    Buddha Is Laughing 1, March 22, 2011 at 10:59 pm

    Blah blah blah troll boy.

    Pssst! You shouldn’t try to use sockpuppets. You’re not a good enough writer to pull it off.

    AND

    Otteray Scribe 1, March 22, 2011 at 11:53 pm

    BIL, I cannot get over how mind-numbingly boring Brian is. He is rude beyond belief in hijacking and disrupting serious discussions with his endless blathering. If he could write coherent English sentences and paragraphs it would be one thing: however, he puts George Bulwer-Lytton to in the second string for being the worst writer ever. His writing style is so awful, I have nothing with which to compare it.

    ######################################

    I began intensive study of the relationship of personality and society, using resources at and/or beyond college level in 1947, when I was eight, and my first source, previously mentioned, was the copy I now have of William S. Sadler, M.D., “Theory and Practice of Psychiatry,” C. V. Mosby, 1936. The copy I have was given to my dad in 1940 by Mary E. Wetzsteon, when my family lived in Butte, Montana.

    Statement of Fact: I, Rev. J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E., Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer No. 34106, and founder of Harris Electronic Service in Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin, in 1950 and founder of Affirmational Faith Ministry, in the Town of Nasewaupee, Wisconsin, in 2002. Both “Harris Electronic Service” and “Affirmational Faith Ministry” are properly “registered” with the County Clerk, in Door County, Wisconsin. I have never posted any comment on the Jonathan Turley blawg using anything other than my actual name, to wit, J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.”

    Consider the following which I found on the Daily Kos site:

    [begin quote from Daily Kos]
    Phil McGraw was trained as a psychologist (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    CalNM, jimstaro, Oogity Boogity Boo

    and held a Texas license to practice. He is a Ph.D. which is a real doctoral degree.

    It is horrifying that we have to fight our own government to save the environment. – Ansel Adams

    by Otteray Scribe on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 10:50:23 PM EST
    [end quote from Daily Kos]

    Next, consider the following from the University of Illinois at Chicago main library”

    https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/uic/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?CNT=20&Search_Arg=Harris%2C%20J.%20Brian&Search_Code=NAME_&PID=ESREAIIoDXgay77kbRzfv&BROWSE=1&HC=1&SID=1

    The text at that address is:

    [begin UIC library catalog text quote]
    Author: Harris, J. Brian.
    Title: Mental health and mental illness : cause, purpose, cure, and prevention : a bioengineering perspective / by J. Brian Harris.
    Thesis/Dissertation: Thesis (Ph. D. in bioengineering)–University of Illinois at Chicago, 1998.
    Published: 1998.
    Physical Description: xiii, 326 leaves ; 29 cm.
    Includes: Includes bibliographical references (leaves 314-325).

    Notes: Typescript (photocopy).
    Vita.

    Institution: University of Illinois at Chicago
    Location: Daley Library – Book Stacks
    Call Number: BF99999 H2781 →Text me this call number
    Copy: 1

    Status: Available
    [end UIC library catalog text quote]

    As for my being a Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer:

    http://online.drl.wi.gov/LicenseLookup/CredSummaryDetails.aspx?chid=59859

    {begin text quote from drl.wi.gov/LicenseLookup}
    Online Applications: Credential Lookup
    Wisconsin Credential Lookup
    Credential Summary – Details

    Credential Summary for 34106-6
    Name: Harris, J Brian
    Credential Type: Professional Engineer (6)
    Credential Number: 34106-6
    Location: STURGEON BAY, WI
    License Type: regular
    Status credential license is current (active)
    Eligible To Practice: credential license is current
    First Fee Received: YES

    Details Requirements Payments Orders Relationships
    Details
    License current through: 07/31/2012
    Granted date: 05/08/2000
    Multi-state: N
    Orders: NONE
    Specialties:
    NONE
    Other Names:
    J Brian Harris

    Consistent with JCAHO and NCQA standards for primary source verification.
    Data on this page is refreshed hourly.

    Questions?
    Send an e-mail, or call (608) 266-2112 between 7:45 a.m. and 2:00 p.m., Central Time.
    {end text quote from drl.wi.gov/LicenseLookup}

    Check out the above data for yourself, and then, to the extent you have believed my work to not be real, it may behoove you to recognize the wisdom of acknowledging your having been mistaken.

    I readily allow that my research approach may remind folks of chalk endlessly screeching on a blackboard.

    Sorry about that, yet I have not found any other way to effectively study the enigma of human dissociation which drives many people, and especially those best adapted to their societies and cultures, into vehemently asserting demonstrably false judgments to be not false.

    I have no vendetta of any sort. I do have an increasingly vivid concern regarding childhood trauma dissociation and its effects upon adult society.

    With intensive and diligent library and Internet searches, I have yet to find anyone else who has found any other way to scientifically study the most profound, pervasive, and taboo-generating aspects of childhood trauma dissociation and its social/cultural consequences.

    I have a simple, undamaged-infant sort of way of living:

    Whatever happens, as it happens, is both necessary and sufficient, and, whatever does not happen, as it does not happen, is both unnecessary and impossible.

    Therefore, I make no judgments.

    In making no judgments, I have no access to any vendetta of any sort.

    And I am acquainted with sorrow and grief.

    Sorrow and grief inform me of what may wisely be avoided, when it is possible to avoid it.

    Propose a more effective, economical, and efficient method to unriddle the enigma of human destructiveness than what I have been doing, and I will evaluate it with diligent resolve.

    Rest assured that I have scoured the human historical record without finding a hint of anything which portends of being more effective, economical, and/or efficient than the method I have been using.

    I welcome useful help; yet the methods of the past, as I can fathom them, merely palliate symptoms in such ways as to only increase the intensity of the process which apparently has so far endlessly intensified the root predicament.

    Doing more of what causes a problem only begins to remedy the problem when it is adequately recognized that doing more of what causes a problem will never solve the problem.

    Prove that my work is not valid. Merely claiming, without demonstrable evidence, that it is not valid is, at best, delusional pseudoscience.

    The proof ought to be very simple within the Adversarial System if the Adversarial System is scientifically valid. What would be such proof? The following will suffice nicely:

    1. Truthfully describe some mistake actually made.
    2. Demonstrate that the mistake actually already made can be avoided, after having been made, through an achievable process, such that the mistake actually made was not actually made when it was actually made.
    3. Avoid any and all “legal fictions” because legal fictions tend to be falsehoods, in any and every effort directed toward accomplishing (1.) and (2.).

    Consider the predicament of a person falsely convicted of a crime which did not happen, the conviction being grounded in the biophysical fallacy of the legal construct of a “reasonable person.”

    First, from Black’s Ninth, page 1380, the definition of “reasonable person”:

    [begin quote from Black's Ninth, "reasonable person"]
    reasonable person. 1. A hypothetical person used as a legal standard, esp. to determine whether someone acted with negligence; specif., a person who exercises the degree of attention, knowledge, intelligence, and judgment that a society requires of its members for the protection of their own and others’ interests. — The reasonable person acts sensibly, does things without serious delay, and takes proper but not excessive precautions. See Restatement (Second) of Torts § 283(b), — Also termed reasonable man, prudent person, highly prudent person. See reasonable care under CARE. [Cases: Negligence {key symbol}233}

    “The reasonable man connotes a person whose notions and standards of behavior and responsibility correspond with those generally obtained among ordinary people in our society at the present time, who seldom allows his emotions to overbear his reason and whose habits are moderate and whose disposition is equable. He is not necessarily the same as the average man — a term which implies an amalgamation of counter-balancing extremes.” R.F.V. Heuston, Salmond on the Law of Torts 56 (17th ed. 1977).
    [end quote from Black's Ninth, "reasonable person"]

    Surely it is blatantly obvious that I am not a “reasonable person?

    Why am I not a “reasonable person”?

    1. I am not a hypothetical person.
    2. Hypothetical persons do not actually exist.
    3. Except as a “fiction of law,” there can be no such thing as a “reasonable person” as defined in Black’s Ninth.
    4. I exercise no judgment and no judgments.
    5. To such extent as society requires of me that I do what is impossible for me to do, society is abusive to me.
    6. By the standards of society, I invariably take excessive precautions.
    7. I am not a connotation of a person, nor am I a denotation of a person.
    8. I am a real person — an actual living human, who cannot do the impossible things a hypothetical person can do and who can do possible things no hypothetical person can ever do.
    9. My standards of behavior are markedly disparate from those generally obtained among ordinary persons in our society at the present time.
    10. I have no responsibilities. I have only response abilities, and I only come to understand my response abilities after I have responded to some event or happening — I never know or understand without error what my response abilities will be until after I have responded to an event or happening.
    11. Whenever my response abilities have been corrupted by my contact with human society, such that my reason is inadvertently contaminated by human error, I invariably find my uncontaminated affect (or emotions?) to be vastly more reliable as a guide to safe behavior than my contaminated reason.
    12. Actual persons meeting the Black’s Ninth connotative definition of “reasonable persons” built the Sobibor Death Camp. Unreasonable persons escaped from Sobibor.
    13. Taking the group of people who flew airplanes into the New York World Trade Center as a society, their standards of behavior and responsibility were in accord with the standards of their society and their flying airplanes into the New York World Trade Center was, within their microcosm society, the work of “reasonable persons.”
    14. Especially because of my invariant observation that it is those who meet the Black’s Ninth definition of “reasonable person” who manage to do every dastardly deed I have ever encountered or heard of, that I decline any and every opportunity to ever become, in the Black’s Ninth definition sense, a “reasonable person.”
    15. Because the present structure of the Adversarial System of Law and Jurisprudence is applicable only to “reasonable persons,” and is so by definition, the Adversarial System of Law and Jurisprudence is inapplicable to me, to my life, and to my life work.
    16. Because any and every Adversarial System is adverse to me, to my life, and to my life work, I am left only with the Affirmational System, which is the only system I have ever even heard of which is unfailingly truthful.
    17. I find that the Adversarial System excludes the Affirmational System, and, I find that the Affirmational System includes the Adversarial System only as a collection of behaviors, knowledge, and understandings wisely to be avoided.
    18. I have never found any two “reasonable people” who actually agree as to what is “reasonable” or as to what a “reasonable person” is.
    19. New paradigms happen.
    20. My research is evidently of a new paradigm. That is plausibly why people intensely addicted to the old paradigm despise my work to such extent as my work is despised.
    21. I do not actually hurt people. My work does not actually hurt people. My work is of demonstrable truthfulness.


  445. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 11:24 am Buddha Is Laughing

    “21. I do not actually hurt people. My work does not actually hurt people. My work is of demonstrable truthfulness.”

    The removal of the role of adversarial courts from legal dispute resolution would inherently promote the tyranny of the strong over the weak and encourage the violent options of self-self for dispute resolution, ergo, your ideas do harm people, troll boy.

    Now blow, windbag.


  446. @Maury: So how much time do we owe to the state (our master)?

    This weekend, I will owe a plumber several thousand dollars, because I am having a second water heater installed to service the far side of the house. It has always taken too long for the water to heat up there. That will not make the plumber my master; he will remain my servant, doing for me a job that I have requested, and with some discretion on his part to apply his expertise and knowledge in order to accomplish my broad intent.

    Government CAN serve the people and accomplish their intent. The fact that ours is corrupt and self-serving and beholden to the rich is not an indictment of representative government in general, it is more of an indictment of our implementation of it.

    Your 28% number is based on federal only, when you add in the others it can be over 50% of a persons income. At that point you really are not a free individual but a serf to the feudal lord in his castle in DC.

    This is simply not true. Under Eisenhower, the top income tax bracket was 98%, and it was routinely paid, and the economy was booming (for many reasons, but I believe the 98% tax rate contributed a great deal to the boom).

    Even paying over 50% of our income in various taxes, my wife and I have more than we need, and we save it. Or spend it on frivolous things and creature comforts, like an extra water heater we could definitely live without, but I understand that convenience is worth something.

    Which brings me to a salient point: You seem to think that 50% was “your” money in some crazed sense; but in actuality if you had to pay a for profit company for your roads, and pay a for profit company for police protection, and pay for profit companies for food inspection, and child education (or even babysitting so you can work, if that is all public schools do), and appliance safety so your blender doesn’t fly apart and blind you, and research at universities that make your medicines, and on and on: That 50% would be gone, and more. Just like we now know with the health insurance companies, they are going to mark it up 40% if they can get away with it, and fuck you over too if they can do that.

    If you want to live off the land in the woods somewhere and walk around armed to the teeth, feel free. But to live in the modern world with the rest of us, that 50% is going to be spent either way. If taxes were optional, nobody would pay their fair share, they’d be suckers. Even if they were well-intentioned and believed in the system, they wouldn’t pay: The vast majority of citizens pretty much spend what they earn, period. That is human nature.

    So feel free, Maury, to fantasize about a system that will never exist, if that makes you feel better somehow about paying what you owe for the myriad services you apparently take for granted and do not even comprehend are saving your life.


  447. “Neither I nor any other conservatives/tea partiers/etc that I know are against helping someone who is truly in need.”

    Tell that to the Governor of Arizona and its’ legislature that will not pay for people who are dying and need organ transplants.
    Schmuck!


  448. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 2:34 pm Otteray Scribe

    Brian, you are not only a narcissist, you are not very smart for a guy who professes to have a Ph.D. For one thing it is not a URI, it is URL. And anti-plagiarism software is hard to circumvent as well. You can play the part of the poor benighted and put upon person all you want. You score no points here. You seem to come here with the purpose and intent to hijack discussions. You do that by making long, rambling and borderline incoherent announcements that have absolutely zero to do with the discussion. Your comments are self-centered to the exclusions of any meaningful discourse. You allude to your mysterious “research” which makes no sense in and of itself. You attack the adversarial system without explaining WHY you think it the worst thing since lutefisk. I am a trained researcher myself, sport, and your behavior bears no resemblance to any research model found in the known universe.

    In short, you are rude and inconsiderate of others. Period.


  449. “I think my absolute favorite, by far, is meshugener”

    “A schlemiel is a guy that spills his soup, a schlimazel is the guy he spills it on.”

    SL & Ton,

    PC crashed and I didn’t see that this got posted before i completed it.

    Wanted to add my old favorite “schnorer” an example of which is a friend who you keep going out to dinner with, but is never able to pay their half of the check, due to one phony reason or another. Though seemingly off the topic it really isn’t because all of the super wealthy in this country (and the world)are “schnorers,” deriving the benefit from government, but letting those with far fewer resources pick up the check.


  450. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 2:46 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Buddha Is Laughing, March 23, 2011 at 11:24 am

    “21. I do not actually hurt people. My work does not actually hurt people. My work is of demonstrable truthfulness.”

    The removal of the role of adversarial courts from legal dispute resolution would inherently promote the tyranny of the strong over the weak and encourage the violent options of self-self for dispute resolution, ergo, your ideas do harm people, troll boy.

    Now blow, windbag.

    #####################################

    Now, we are finally getting somewhere?

    In my work, the adversarial system itself is, and is only, the tyranny of the supposedly strong over the supposedly weak; while, as though with unmitigated gall, falsely claiming otherwise with nearly unlimited coercive threat. This process, BiL, methinks you perchance model to near perfection in your obstinate rejection of some very diligently done, evidently unprecedented, bioengineering research.

    In my work it is, and is only, the Adversarial Principle which generates the disputes the Adversarial Principle, as used in the Adversarial System of Law and Jurisprudence purports to resolve, while, through the purported resolution process, generating a many additional disputes as possible.

    Otteray Scribe seems to deem me rude, whatever that word connotes to him may be.

    What is a proper descriptor for someone obviously not qualified who takes on the work of a professional engineer doing very original scientific research? The best word I can yet find to describe Otteray Scribe is, “traumatized.”

    Sturgeon Bay Atty. James O. Ebbeson, after our son and his wife were killed when their car exploded at least in part due to defective welds, set out to teach me what I regard as the same basic sort of lesson your words appear as though intended to teach me. Ebbeson failed in doing that, if such was his intention, in much the same way as methinks you may be failing to similarly teach me.

    As with Atty. Ebbeson, I cannot in conscience respond to you with what I regard as an adversarial way, nor can I in conscience ignore your tragic misunderstanding of my work and its value to a valid system of human law.

    Atty. Ebbeson is, per the Wisconsin Bar Association web site, now an Emeritus member with good license status. His member ID is listed as 1007960. He did much as you are doing, disregarding every significant concern I had regarding our son’s son, as I worked at preventing effectively becoming divorced from our son’s son.

    If attorneys like Ebbeson had not worked so diligently to command me to hold their view of justice with unmitigated abjection, I would never have come to regard the Adversarial Principle as the ultimate of all possible forms of attainable evil.

    Ebbeson finally realized that he was not getting anywhere in persuading me to accept his view (a view I found to be of severe distortion of directly observable objective reality) and I learned to not give up when someone who does not in any viable way understand my work, in whatever form if sincere ignorance (or whatever else) precludes a deeply caring person from being capable of understanding the simple truthfulness of a newborn infant.

    So, for the sake of his sorrowful passion, I continue, for as long as I am able as long as no one actually demonstrates any error of consequence in my work.

    I find sincerity and truthfulness to be uncorrelated.

    I have shared my ideas with many people with whom I have met in person and who trusted themselves and other people enough to tell me who they were and to tell me their “real” name. Not one such person has ever reported to me any harm which came to them from or through the ideas I share with other people.

    Unlike you, BiL, I have tested whether people find the ideas of my research to be in any way harmful, and have done so with hundreds of people, without a single actual report of actual harm.

    I find sincerity and truthfulness to be uncorrelated.

    BiL, I totally respect your sincerity regarding your expressed beliefs about my work. I also find the truthfulness of your expressed beliefs about my work to be identically zero.


  451. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 2:59 pm Stamford Liberal

    Mike S,

    “Tell that to the Governor of Arizona and its’ legislature that will not pay for people who are dying and need organ transplants.”

    Funny how there are real death panels now, but the GOP is eerily silent … In fact, Grim Reaper Brewer has already had two citizens kicked off the organ list die …

    “Schmuck!”

    Lol!

    “Wanted to add my old favorite “schnorer” an example of which is a friend who you keep going out to dinner with, but is never able to pay their half of the check, due to one phony reason or another.”

    Oooo … thanks for that Mike … keeping in storage for future use!


  452. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 3:31 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Windbag,

    “I find sincerity and truthfulness to be uncorrelated.”

    That’s funny.

    Because what you express ad nauseum with sincerity has no correlation to truthfulness let alone reality. Whereas all of the previous deconstructions of your nonsense I have provided don’t need sincerity as they have, oh, what’s that pesky thing that keeps kicking you in the balls . . . oh yeah! Logic. Cold irrefutable logic based upon evidence that spans the entirety of human history that shows not only the necessity of courts in maintaining society but the benefits of adversarial courts over any other form to date. I could give a damn what you think about my sincerity let alone my truthfulness, troll. I have logic and proof and my side and you’ve simply got a lot of obfuscating self-absorbed logically flawed bullshit.

    Again, you mistake being the object of address for being the object of message.

    To reiterate – just so you get the message – I don’t give a damn what you think of me, troll. Love me? Hate me? Indifferent to me? I really don’t care. As long as your pro-tyranny/pro-anarchy bullshit is defused before anyone accidentally thinks you might have a clue.

    Your “research” is a joke. You regularly lie, distort history and make up definitions. Your logic, when present at all, is riddled with a multitude of formal fallacies which you have refused to address let alone correct. You cannot rationally defend your ideas. You spread antisocial poison that promotes anarchy and tyranny all the while claiming – sincerely I might add – that you are ‘just trying to help’.

    Why would I care what you think about me, Mr. Circular Logic?

    I smack down your Big Lies lest someone gullible mistake them for having anything other than antisocial propagandistic content. Not for your approval. Somewhat for my amusement. For the benefit of others.

    So unless you figure out how to cogently defend your indefensible ideas? Next time you want to express your opine of my sincerity or truthfulness, I cordially invite you to go fornicate yourself. Because 1) I do not care, 2) you cannot logically defend your statements nor present any valid evidence which renders your “work” down to simple opinion at best and 3) it’s just more attempted distraction on your part.

    Defend your flawed ideas instead of addressing what you think of me. Oh, that’s right. You can’t. Because your ideas are indefensible junk.

    Now blow, windbag.

    You’re nothing if not predictable and predictably nothing in substantive argument.


  453. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 3:34 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Mike,

    I love the word “schnorer” too. It also has the honor of actually being part of a song lyric thus earning a post-dated win of the “Toto/Serengeti” Award for Awkward Words in a Lyric. The word is found in “Hooray for Captain Spaulding” by Groucho Marx.


  454. BIL,

    1. Glad to see you’re getting back to your old, green self :)

    2. I give you major kudos for not only actually reading what Brian posts but responding to him in detail as well.

    The only usefulness I can see in what he posts is if I needed some reading material to help me sleep at night …


  455. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 3:43 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Thanks, vlf. It’s good to be back.

    May the insomnia never strike you.


  456. Mike S.,
    Growing up in Skokie, IL many of my Jewish friends used the term “putz”. I also get a kick out of that word whenever I hear it!


  457. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 3:50 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    By the way, for anyone wondering, “schnorer” rhymes with “explorer”.


  458. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 3:52 pm Otteray Scribe

    Brian sez:

    “What is a proper descriptor for someone obviously not qualified who takes on the work of a professional engineer doing very original scientific research? The best word I can yet find to describe Otteray Scribe is, “traumatized.””

    ***************************************

    Logic does not appear to be your strong point, Sport. First, you comment that I am not qualified to take on the work of a trained engineer. In what area? You keep referring to your research into human behavior and the legal system. Being a trained engineer has squat to do with either of those areas. Want to do a stress analysis on an I-beam? That’s fine because that is engineering work. But to attack the legal system and the adversary trial system on which it is based puts you into the role of an ordinary layman. Your engineering background is worth jack shit in that regard and your opinion and belief is no better than that of my barber. As for your trying to do some kind of behavior “research? Exactly how is your training in building bridges better in this area than mine, since I spent thirteen years of my life in university studying the subject.

    AS BIL says, you have opinion and speculation. Nothing else. It has nothing to do with your repeated assertion about being a licensed engineer. Once you step across the threshold into another professional’s specialty, you are not an engineer any more–you are a layman.


  459. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 4:11 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Otteray Scribe, March 23, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    Brian, you are not only a narcissist, you are not very smart for a guy who professes to have a Ph.D. For one thing it is not a URI, it is URL. And anti-plagiarism software is hard to circumvent as well. You can play the part of the poor benighted and put upon person all you want. You score no points here. You seem to come here with the purpose and intent to hijack discussions. You do that by making long, rambling and borderline incoherent announcements that have absolutely zero to do with the discussion. Your comments are self-centered to the exclusions of any meaningful discourse. You allude to your mysterious “research” which makes no sense in and of itself. You attack the adversarial system without explaining WHY you think it the worst thing since lutefisk. I am a trained researcher myself, sport, and your behavior bears no resemblance to any research model found in the known universe.

    In short, you are rude and inconsiderate of others. Period.

    ####################################

    BINGO!

    Sooner or later, Mere Ignorance announces its presence.

    Otteray Scribe, I truly thank you for driving your ignorance into the light of day.

    URI = Uniform Resource Identifier.

    There are two forms of URIs in common use, to wit:

    Uniform Resource Names (URNs)

    AND

    Uniform Resource Locators (URLs)

    Sooner or later, your ignorance regarding my work was bound to show up for all to see…

    I used URI with the hint in mind that your scope of knowledge and understanding might just happen to not include Uniform Resource Identifiers.

    Do a Google Search for URI, URL, and URN, and you may find the following site:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Identifier

    The simple fact, Otteray Scribe, is that I have chosen to be gentle with you, I am aware of tragedies in your family situation, yet, when you continue to proclaim my work not valid, eventually, I needs be raise sufficient objection as needed to overcome your sincerely mistaken understanding of my work.

    As for lutefisk, my mother’s parents were of Swedish origin and lutefisk is delicious to some of Scandinavian ancestry

    And, as for your observation, to wit:

    “I am a trained researcher myself, sport, and your behavior bears no resemblance to any research model found in the known universe.”

    What in the universe do you think a completely new scientific paradigm might be and why in the universe do you believe that a new research methodology is not required when all prior methodologies have utterly failed as ways of solving a scientific problem?

    Of course, my methodology resembles no other prior method, that is the essential nature of a new scientific paradigm which is the result of a completely new scientific research methodology!

    I will be putting a .pdf scan of the letter from Irving F. Miller regarding the originality of my research after the equipment to do the scanning and .pdf conversion arrives. It is now scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, depending upon the weather. I will put, as time and effort allow, some hundreds of such scanned pages as documentation of my work.

    Dr. Phyllis Bowen, the research methods expert at the University of Illinois at Chicago, objected for a long time about my research methodology. I responded to, and overcame, every such objection easily, until she began to object to my stating in my dissertation drafts that I had done an experiment. Like you, Otteray Scribe, she could find no parallel to my work in the annals of science.

    Finally, I arranged to go to her home for a very long evening, during which I described in great detail every form of bias which my research method had been designed to control, and how I used longitudinal controls in a form of naturalistic experimental protocol to elicit the data of my thesis. When, after hours of dialogue, Dr. Bowen finally understood what I had done, and how and why I had done it the way I did, she finally said, “You could not have gotten the data any other way.”

    It may surprise you to learn that my research methodology was designed and developed so as to comply with criterion #4 in 45 CFR 46 as valid during my field work. Therefore, my work neither qualified for University of Illinois at Chicago Institutional Review Board review, nor required it.

    Why did I design my field work research protocol so as to absolutely, totally, and perfectly exclude University of Illinois at Chicago Institutional Review Board review? For the simple reason that I had come upon the sort of objections you, Otteray Scribe, and Buddha Is Laughing continue to raise, and because I could avoid conflict with the Institutional Review Board members by a sufficiently ingenious and honest research methodology as would make it impossible for the IRB to improperly critique my work through the IRB members being ignorant of the need for a completely new research methodology which would be as unfamiliar to them as my methodology evidently is to you and BiL.

    When a serious problem has defeated the best minds in the world for thousands of years, surely something other than the methods of the past is needed to resolve such a problem.

    I am reminded of Dr. Paul MacCready’s comment about the Gossamer Condor, which was, if I recall it correctly, that it had to “have the right amount of flimsy.”

    My work appears to me to have required “the right amount of autistic stupidity.” I guess I needed to be autistic-stupid enough to be too stupid to learn the conventional lesson of the infant-child transition, yet not too autistic-stupid to properly earn a Ph.D. from a “major research university.”

    Were I autistic-stupid enough to make a guess (and I am not?), I would guess that someone with the right amount of autistic-stupidity is of an a-priori probability of perhaps one in a trillion; therefore, by frequentist statistics, I have no right to exist.

    Rev. Bayes, however, came to my rescue! My work is primarily based on Bayesian statistical methods, with an occasional trace amount of frequentist ways as though of frosting on the cake.

    For how many times have I attempted to communicate the simple fact that my work is of the “scientific-revolution/new-paradigm/profoundly-original-research-methodology” type? Why is it of that type? Because all prior approaches have totally and absolutely failed to correctly identify the real, root cause of human violent destructiveness, and, for want of correct identification of the real root cause, have been limited to mere palliation of symptoms and reinforcement of the underlying real root cause.

    It bothers and saddens me to have needed to use “URI” as a way to communicate that I may happen to know and understand vastly more than you, Otteray Scribe, or Buddha Is Laughing can believe to be possible. I prefer not being put in the sort of double-bind your (and BiL’s) responses to my valid bioengineering concern have led me into. However, your (derogatory?) comments have made it necessary to expose your inability to adequately critique my work. Had it been possible, I suppose that I would rather you had not forced the issue. Force it, you did, and I will continue to respond with protest regarding your apparent prejudice regarding my work.

    I am well satisfied that you, Otteray Scribe, and also Buddha Is Laughing, are as fully competent in your field of work as I am in mine. My work necessarily includes the biophysics of the safety of human social structures perhaps as much as your (and BiL’s?) work excludes my work in bioengineering.

    I would greatly prefer to work with you and BiL and others in actually solving the predicament of the re-entrant vicious cycle mechanism of reciprocal retaliation than engage in a transactional game of pseudo-intellectual verbal sparring.

    Children are even now suffering the abuse of conventional, time-corrupted-learning-based socialization traumatization.

    Given that you have not demonstrated any error of significance in my work and given that I have never found anyone who can do that, and given that my work properly passed rigorous peer review (not including many typographical errors which could not be corrected because I was not allowed the time needed to find and correct them by Dean Amy Levant of the UIC Graduate College) by my thesis committee.

    If being told I am wrong without it being demonstrated that I am wrong would ever work, and if that did not work during the first three days of kindergarten and if that did not work during the major part of second grade when I was repeatedly paddled by Mrs. Edith Knudsen at Marshall School Eureka, California for not lying on command, what evidence is there that I can be persuaded to act in violation of my conscience by any living person or any set of living persons?

    You have such evidence, tell me about it, because I have totally overlooked it.

    If it is your belief that my being truthful regarding the dictates of my conscience makes me rude, is not being rude a term of the highest possible form of endearment?


  460. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 4:40 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Work with me?

    Oh, now that is funny.

    Considering you’d work to tear down a fundamental cornerstone of civilization.

    No, Brian. I work to destroy your “work”. As a proponent of civilization, that is in my nature. Evidence? How about evidence in the form of every civilizations form in recorded history backed with solid irrefutable logic? Cause I gots me some of that. If your “work” was worth a damn logically or on an evidentiary basis, you should be able to disprove these statements:

    Your postulate about the a value of legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process is both irrational and destructive as

    1) legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process is the alternative process to personal self-help adversarial dispute resolution which results in the tyranny of the strong over the weak and often violence and

    2) that such an alternative to self-help dispute resolution somehow creates adversity (adversity which in fact is caused simply by human nature, human interaction and circumstance) when what legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process does is remove the potential for violence from adversity and is thus a cornerstone of maintaining civilization over anarchy and tyranny.

    3) Courts of some form have been an integral part of every civilization since Sumer. Courts in the adversarial mode are the form most likely to encourage justice as they are the form that most encourages equity – a necessary component of justice – by allowing all sides of a dispute to present their arguments and evidence as to how a neutral judge should rule on a given case, thus allowing all sides an impartial hearing.

    Do so without fallacious logic, appeals to religion, appeals to your own misplaced authority, making up a definition, distorting history or otherwise lying.

    Until you can disprove those statements in a formally correct and factually honest manner?

    You will remain completely and utterly defeated in your “work” and relegated to the depths of trollery and nuisance posting.

    If you find any of these reasonable requests for counter-argument and valid proof “traumatizing”?

    Good.

    If you think this request is somehow rooted in a flaw or injury past in me? Feel free to bloviate about it in your obfuscating evasions that will surely be forthcoming in your repeated absence of a cogent defenses to your “work”. Because to save you time, I’ll stipulate that I was not traumatized as a child and indeed had a happy childhood and that my only flaw relevant to this matter is a really low tolerance for bullshit and liars – which is not really a flaw when one merely seeks the truth, by which no man was ever harmed.

    Carry on.


  461. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 4:42 pm Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    Oh lookie Boys, there is the fat green thingy that utters BS. Can’t you make him shut his clap trap?


  462. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 4:45 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Better than you have tried. Oh, and failed miserably. Has Andy resorted to the “B” Team? You’re welcome to put up or shut up though by proving Brian’s work for him though.

    Good luck.


  463. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 5:02 pm Otteray Scribe

    BIL, from the comments, it appears that our Brian had a tough time with the courts, and if I read it correctly, something to do with custody of a grandchild following a family tragedy. It is really hard to wade through all the circumlocutions and hypergraphia, so I may have misread parts of it. We both run into this kind of blame game all the time. Blame the judges, blame the system, blame one’s own lawyer, and so on ad nauseum.

    I have an attorney friend who has a needlepoint sign on his office wall, His wife made it for him. It says, in old English lettering, “The Truth Will Make You Mad.”

    Brian appears to have concluded that it’s the fault of a legal system that has worked for centuries that is the cause of his personal problems. Therefore it must be scrapped for some other model that does not involve forensics. Good luck on that. I would have hated to be the lawyer trying to pin him down on either a direct or cross examination. I am sure he was his own worst enemy in any litigation with which he was involved.


  464. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 5:06 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    OS,

    Yep.


  465. “Wanted to add my old favorite “schnorer” an example of which is a friend who you keep going out to dinner with, but is never able to pay their half of the check, due to one phony reason or another.”

    Must be some friend.

    Glad to be at a point in life where those kind of friends belong to someone else.
    :) :) :)

    For some reason, still find myself picking up tabs. Sometimes habits and characters are built in days of need, and don’t change when the need is past.


  466. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 5:18 pm Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    Who is this you are talking to boy? If you are talking to me you better get your toys out and play with them. This is so you won’t be alone.


  467. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 5:52 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Well I would think it was abundantly clear that I was talking to you, Auntee Candyass.

    If you want to defend Brian’s point – when in all likelihood you are “Brian” or simply another propaganda goon – then do so. You’re the one who stepped in the middle of argument you can’t finish. Like I said, feel free to put up or shut up. I can sit back and laugh at you running away or I can smack you around and laugh at you trying to defend the indefensible. Either way, I end up laughing and you end up with a wedgie. So bring it or begone.

    I like a good laugh.


  468. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 5:56 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    “Either way, I end up laughing and you end up with a wedgie.”
    —————————–
    dam, I just had a serious flashback to a very boisterous childhood….:) thanks!


  469. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 5:58 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    One lives to be of service.


  470. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 6:31 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Otteray Scribe, March 23, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    Brian sez:

    “What is a proper descriptor for someone obviously not qualified who takes on the work of a professional engineer doing very original scientific research? The best word I can yet find to describe Otteray Scribe is, “traumatized.””

    ***************************************

    Logic does not appear to be your strong point, Sport. First, you comment that I am not qualified to take on the work of a trained engineer. In what area? You keep referring to your research into human behavior and the legal system. Being a trained engineer has squat to do with either of those areas. Want to do a stress analysis on an I-beam? That’s fine because that is engineering work. But to attack the legal system and the adversary trial system on which it is based puts you into the role of an ordinary layman. Your engineering background is worth jack shit in that regard and your opinion and belief is no better than that of my barber. As for your trying to do some kind of behavior “research? Exactly how is your training in building bridges better in this area than mine, since I spent thirteen years of my life in university studying the subject.

    AS BIL says, you have opinion and speculation. Nothing else. It has nothing to do with your repeated assertion about being a licensed engineer. Once you step across the threshold into another professional’s specialty, you are not an engineer any more–you are a layman.

    #######################################

    Ignorance once again drives itself into the light of day!

    When it comes to the study of the structures of human society from a public safety standpoint as a valid exercise of a Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer having a Ph.D. in bioengineering with a doctorate titled, “Mental Health and Mental Illness: Cause, Purpose, Cure, and Prevention; A Bioengineering Perspective,” and when said bioengineer observes with all due diligence that the Adversarial Principle is the ultimate root cause of all forms of mental illness, then the news is that said bioengineer is genuinely working within the engineer’s areas of professional competence in studying how the
    Adversarial Principle, as ensconced within the Anglo-American System of Adversarial Law and Jurisprudence leads to child abuse and resulting trauma and mental illness.

    Otteray Scribe: Your claim, “Being a trained engineer has squat to do with either of those areas.” is absolutely false. My doctorate is in Bioengineering and my doctoral dissertation is titled, “Mental Health and Mental Illness: Cause, Purpose, Cure, and Prevention; A Bioengineering Perspective,” and I find as a Bioengineer who is a Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer, working in my area(s) of established professional competence, that the effect of indoctrinating children, typically at around 18 months of age, into believing that the child made a mistake the child could have avoided is brain-damaging-trauma child abuse which results in children who are successfully coerced into this form of deception becoming deceived in ways that often result in subsequent violent human destructiveness and dishonesty.

    Otteray Scribe: Your claim, “But to attack the legal system and the adversary trial system on which it is based puts you into the role of an ordinary layman. Your engineering background is worth jack shit in that regard and your opinion and belief is no better than that of my barber.” is absolutely false.

    From Wisconsin Statute 0443:
    (6) “Practice of professional engineering” includes any professional service requiring the application of engineering principles and data, in which the public welfare or the safeguarding of life, health or property is concerned and involved, such as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, design, or responsible supervision of construction, alteration, or operation, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, projects, bridges, plants and buildings, machines, equipment, processes and works. A person offers to practice professional engineering if the person by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way represents himself or herself to be a professional
    engineer; or who through the use of some other title implies
    that he or she is a professional engineer; or who holds himself or herself out as able to practice professional engineering.

    (7) “Professional engineer” means a person who by reason of his or her knowledge of mathematics, the physical sciences and the principles of engineering, acquired by professional education and practical experience, is qualified to engage in engineering practice as defined in sub. (6).”

    Biophysics is a sub-branch of physics, and I established my competence in the relevant areas of biophysics in 1997-8 through the successful peer review of my doctoral dissertation and the granting of my Doctor of Philosopby in Bioengineering degree by the University of Illinois at Chicago and by meeting the requirements for becoming a Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer.

    I am a member of the National Society of Professional Engineers, and have “run the nature of my work” past Arthur Schwartz, Esq., the General Counsel of the National Society of Professional Engineers as part of my validating the legitimacy of my bioengineering work as properly of the practice of Professional Engineering.

    I did “my homework” before going public with my research methods and findings. Because I live in Wisconsin, I ran the nature of my work past a qualified Professional Engineer on the faculty of the Milwaukee School of Engineering. Because my work includes scientific psychology at a rather high level, I am a member of the Association for Psychological Science.

    With apologies to Gene Roddenberry, I am an engineer who goes boldly where no engineer has gone before! Therefore, it is dishonest to compare me with engineers who are not going boldly where I am going and going with me as I go.

    Were the viewpoints I believe you, Otteray Scribe, and also Buddha Is Laughing, promoting even slightly valid, my reading of Wisconsin Statutes and Regulations informs me that I need to be put through the complaint procedures of the Wisconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing for being in exceptional violation of the requirements of my Professional Engineer license.

    If you really believe that what I am doing is not proper professional engineering for a professional engineer having the bioengineering doctorate I have, simply file a complaint with the Wisconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing. The complaint form is readily to be found on the Internet web site of the Wisconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing.

    If you are not willing to file such a complaint, perhaps you do not really believe the comments you have been posting regarding my findings regarding The Adversarial System and The Public Safety.

    Are you “too chicken” to file a complaint and learn the truth about my work as a replacement for your misunderstandings of it?

    As you, Otteray Scribe, are a capable researcher, you will have no difficulty finding and filling out and submitting the proper complaint form with the Wisconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing.

    Are you prepared for the adventure which would follow your submitting such a complaint form? I am ready.

    I had learned how to stand up to bullying long before kindergarten.

    I continue to have a very serious legal theory concern, one no one who I have observed posting comments on this blawg has had the apparent competence to properly address.

    Yet hope springs eternal. So, I simply do not quit in my search for someone who is willing and able to work with me to sort out whether my work really is or is not useful. Name-calling does not decide that issue worth a whit.


  471. @Mike S: Ha! Hadn’t heard that one (schnorer). I’ve known a few. Heck, on the (now defunct) series Two and a Half Men, Alan (one of the brothers) is a perfect schnorer.


  472. @Brian: I simply do not quit in my search for someone who is willing and able to work with me to sort out whether my work really is or is not useful.

    I am sure there are (and have been) plenty of people able, the fact that you cannot find anybody willing should tell you something. The people that have been able gave you an answer you were not willing to accept: Your work is not useful.

    The only answer you are willing to accept is a falsehood, and since it is impossible to prove a falsehood is true, you will continue wasting your pointless life until it is gone. You could be contributing something, or contributing nothing, instead you are contributing negative information and negative value. What a completely self-centered, selfish, egotistical and uncaring person you are.


  473. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 7:50 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Otteray Scribe, March 23, 2011 at 5:02 pm

    BIL, from the comments, it appears that our Brian had a tough time with the courts, and if I read it correctly, something to do with custody of a grandchild following a family tragedy. It is really hard to wade through all the circumlocutions and hypergraphia, so I may have misread parts of it. We both run into this kind of blame game all the time. Blame the judges, blame the system, blame one’s own lawyer, and so on ad nauseum.

    I have an attorney friend who has a needlepoint sign on his office wall, His wife made it for him. It says, in old English lettering, “The Truth Will Make You Mad.”

    Brian appears to have concluded that it’s the fault of a legal system that has worked for centuries that is the cause of his personal problems. Therefore it must be scrapped for some other model that does not involve forensics. Good luck on that. I would have hated to be the lawyer trying to pin him down on either a direct or cross examination. I am sure he was his own worst enemy in any litigation with which he was involved.

    ###################################

    You are really having a hard time with my work? I do not ever blame anything or anyone, because I long ago learned that blame is invariably a form of attribution error.

    Neither do I attack the legal system. I merely describe my research and findings, and people who “believe in blame” (which I do not) will, perhaps using some sort of delusional “theory of mind” mistakenly assign their beliefs and belief errors to me.

    And I was decidedly my very best friend when the adversarial system made its best attempt to date to discredit me.

    Not only have I never “concluded that it’s the fault of a legal system…”; I have never concluded that there is anything ever at fault in any way whatsoever. In stark contrast with the traditional or conventional view, my understanding of denotation and the quantum-mechanical nature of existence invariably informs me that everything that happens happens in the possible way and never otherwise; therefore, there is never actually anything to blame save as an error of attribution.

    Consider the following sequence: If it is hurtful, it is wrong. If no one knows that it is hurtful, it may happen because no one can anticipate it sufficiently to prevent it. If it is hurtful and it can not be prevented, it may happen so people can learn enough about it to be able to prevent it in the future. It is right to prevent harm when it is possible to do so. The only way to learn for sure what is harmful is by someone doing it. It is right to learn how to avoid doing what is harmful. It is helpful to learn what is harmful as that is the only way to learn how to prevent it. It is right to learn what is harmful in order to prevent doing it in the future. It is right to do everything harmful that is done because there is no other way to learn how to avoid future harm. Everything which happens is therefore right when it happens. There is therefore nothing ever actually wrong. There is therefore nothing at fault and no one to fault. Blame is a delusion based upon error in understanding how existence works.

    Why the notion of blame? Blame is a form of attribution error, such that, after blame has happened enough times, it will become clear enough to people that blame is a delusion that people will stop blaming.

    I have already learned to stop blaming. I learned it before I was born and never unlearned it.

    When people inform me that I am blaming, and many have so informed me, I invariably do what I can to inform them of their error.

    It is one thing to blame and another to merely describe personal experiences without invoking blame of any sort, and find other people who unlearned to not blame believing in error that I blame because “everyone does.”

    The news is, however, that not everyone “blames.” I do not, and unborn fetuses are rather unlikely to blame for want of experiences with people who do blame. Blame is a process I find is replicated from adult to child via the child’s mirror neuron system before blame arrives through verbal connotation.

    Weather permitting, a replacement auto-feed scanner with convert-to-.pdf software is scheduled to arrive here tomorrow. I will be scanning and converting to .pdf many pages of court documents, including briefs, affidavits, and transcripts as documentation of aspects of my field work.

    Perhaps my favorite set of documents is a pair of “minor claimed traffic violation” court transcripts in which I was convicted on “clear and convincing evidence” of violating a red light in Door County which I did not violate and was so convicted without any witness testimony to the effect that I violated it. Even better is Judge Diltz allowing me to testify from the witness box without being either sworn or affirmed, thereby setting a precedent in Door County that witnesses can testify in defiance of Wisconsin Statute requiring witnesses to be either sworn or affirmed.

    When, in regard to the traffic incident which led to that rather peculiar bench trial, then Sturgeon Bay City Attorney, James Downey, told me to choose between two lies he told me I had to tell, and lied to me about the relevant statute, which I had already carefully read, I decided that I was going to do some further research into the intrinsic deceptive dishonesty of the adversarial system. Once the documents have been properly scanned, converted to .pdf format, and put on one of my web sites, it will get rather interesting when I take what I have learned very public.

    My research here has partly been directed toward learning about the sort of difficulties I may plausibly expect during the next major phase of my public-safety-oriented bioengineering research.

    I find quite a few people wondering what on earth is happening, what with the Wisconsin governor and legislature and civil rights of state, county, and municipal workers.

    Yes, I am a member of the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees Union, AFL-CIO. And I am decidedly pro-Union.

    The Wisconsin governor and legislature appear to me to have become profoundly pro-(dis-union) and I find that the governor and legislature are severely dissing me and my colleagues.

    Buddha Is Laughing and Otteray Scribe (in particular among those who comment here), you have given me a marvelous additional repertoire of tools with which to be more effectively pro-Union.

    I really thank you for your help, even though you may not have yet realized how very helpful you were being in promoting my research and its findings.

    And you think I am not good at what I do? A surprise is in waiting. When I deem the time to be proper.

    Were there a joke to my work instead of a tragedy, the joke, even then, would not be on you or on me.


  474. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:03 pm Anonymously Yours

    Brian, Brian, Brian….

    Why do you espouse shit no one is really interested in reading…. If you want people and I think I can safely say this for some others here….get off of the tangent you are on….Hit the facts…and somehow or another tie it into the discussion… Other than that what you post has been a wasted space and few here take you seriously….if this is the attention you want…then by all means go for it…..

    I wake up and wonder if you have gotten the clue….then again….maybe you can’t or won’t ever be able to understand….If the degrees are really associated with you…then my friend your education has been lost….


  475. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:16 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Tony C., March 23, 2011 at 6:51 pm

    @Brian: I simply do not quit in my search for someone who is willing and able to work with me to sort out whether my work really is or is not useful.

    I am sure there are (and have been) plenty of people able, the fact that you cannot find anybody willing should tell you something. The people that have been able gave you an answer you were not willing to accept: Your work is not useful.

    The only answer you are willing to accept is a falsehood, and since it is impossible to prove a falsehood is true, you will continue wasting your pointless life until it is gone. You could be contributing something, or contributing nothing, instead you are contributing negative information and negative value. What a completely self-centered, selfish, egotistical and uncaring person you are.

    #######################################

    It is not really all that surprising to me how intensively some people project their self-image onto me. There is formidable research in psychology about this, including some by a Carleton classmate of mine.

    I do work with other qualified doctoral-level scientists, including one or more with a Ph.D. in psychology with whom I talk fairly regularly. None of my supportive colleagues are registered professional engineers, none did a Ph.D. dissertation which qualifies them to do the work I do the way I do it.

    As I seek words I have a hunch one person may understand, someone else to whom the words were not directed often jumps in, perhaps because of finding the words offensive in some way I could not anticipate.

    I have a collection of decent folks who have worked with me for many years. None of them, for cause, have the personality structure which would lead them to act as top-tier people, however, perhaps because they are simply too decent over the whole of their lives to ever allow such a tragedy to infect their decency.

    There are some very decent people who worked with me in the past and who I can safely name at this time. They were all amateur radio operators. K9AVU, WB9PME, WA0JZS, WA9EWO, K0CNR are among a few.

    I find it tragically sad that formal education has tended to imprison most scientists within normal science to the nearly complete exclusion of the work of dramatically new scientific paradigms, wherein surely await the most urgently useful scientific discoveries not yet tickling mainstream science and mainstream scientific interest.

    People who challenge the errors of the past, when the errors are highly prized by those who derive differential benefit from the consequences of such errors, tend to experience umbrage when some silly fool challenger like me plays court-jester without hierarchical authorization.

    I have a hunch that, for every person who thinks of self as “a somebody,” there are likely at least a hundred people who, rather like me, know better.


  476. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:27 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Anonymously Yours, March 23, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    Brian, Brian, Brian….

    Why do you espouse shit no one is really interested in reading…. If you want people and I think I can safely say this for some others here….get off of the tangent you are on….Hit the facts…and somehow or another tie it into the discussion… Other than that what you post has been a wasted space and few here take you seriously….if this is the attention you want…then by all means go for it…..

    I wake up and wonder if you have gotten the clue….then again….maybe you can’t or won’t ever be able to understand….If the degrees are really associated with you…then my friend your education has been lost….

    #####################################

    Who is being obtuse or whatever?

    I keep mentioning as fact that the objections people post as comments are the data I here am seeking.

    You who object to my work are doing exactly as I would want you to do, were I to want anything.

    Those who object to my work are demonstrating its validity through the form and content of the posted objections.

    I suppose I will eventually stop pointing that out so often as I have been doing.

    Is it really true that only the ones who somehow understand what I am doing and why are the only ones who know better than to respond with comments which only reinforce my research and findings?

    I am beginning to wonder how long it might take, were I to continue this research effort beyond what I find to be of value, for BiL, AY, OS, and you, TonyC. to wake up and figure out what it is that I am actually doing and why it is significant as proper bioengineering research???

    I figure that the ones who are able to take me seriously already know better than to play tit-for-tat with me, especially when I do not reciprocate with a tit for a tat or a tat far a tit.

    However, methinks I may actually be getting better and better at sorting out why our society is as though gone amok.

    The mechanism is, as I observe, being beautifully modeled here…

    (beautifully is cynical :-) )


  477. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:31 pm Anonymously Yours

    Brian,

    If your mission and objective is to annoy, piss people off and to alienate yourself from meaningful discussion…consider your objective complete….


  478. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:32 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    Perhaps the first line of the original topic as posted by Elaine will be informative as to what has been happening regarding comments directed toward me and my work. It certainly has framed the comments sent my way for me. That first line was and is:

    “Warning: You are about to enter the Twilight Zone.”
    ;-)


  479. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:33 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    “Neither do I attack the legal system.”

    That’s funny, because every time you attack adversarial process you are attacking one third of our legal system – namely the judiciary.

    And you still haven’t answered the challenge to your “work”. You’ve evaded and blathered quite a bit, but you’ve come nowhere near refuting what I’ve said about your claims. Which is par for the course when you are indeed an obfuscating troll, obfuscating troll.


  480. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:41 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Awww. You’re simply not that hard to figure out, troll. But then again, we’ve come to expect delusions of grandeur from one who has compared himself to Einstein, Hawking and Galileo.

    So how about refuting the following:

    Your postulate about the a value of legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process is both irrational and destructive as

    1) legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process is the alternative process to personal self-help adversarial dispute resolution which results in the tyranny of the strong over the weak and often violence and

    2) that such an alternative to self-help dispute resolution somehow creates adversity (adversity which in fact is caused simply by human nature, human interaction and circumstance) when what legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process does is remove the potential for violence from adversity and is thus a cornerstone of maintaining civilization over anarchy and tyranny.

    3) Courts of some form have been an integral part of every civilization since Sumer. Courts in the adversarial mode are the form most likely to encourage justice as they are the form that most encourages equity – a necessary component of justice – by allowing all sides of a dispute to present their arguments and evidence as to how a neutral judge should rule on a given case, thus allowing all sides an impartial hearing.

    Do so without fallacious logic, appeals to religion, appeals to your own misplaced authority, making up a definition, distorting history or otherwise lying.

    Until you can disprove those statements in a formally correct and factually honest manner?

    You will remain completely and utterly defeated in your “work” and relegated to the depths of trollery and nuisance posting.

    If you are half as smart as you think you are, Galileo-boy, you should at least be able to make an attempt to do so and do so cogently, logically and without material misrepresentations. Because you’re “collecting data on us”? Isn’t an answer to the challenges to your postulate. It’s simply more evasion and self-aggrandizing. What you are being is a selfish invasive pest and a prick. But as long as you persist in spreading your bullshit here? We’ll be glad to tear it down right behind you, enemy of civilization and the Constitution.


  481. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:46 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Anonymously Yours, March 23, 2011 at 8:31 pm

    Brian,

    If your mission and objective is to annoy, piss people off and to alienate yourself from meaningful discussion…consider your objective complete….

    #########################

    Posted comments such as the one of yours to which I am herewith responding are precisely the meaningful discussion for which I have been searching.

    What you find meaningful, I may find meaningless; and what you find meaningless, I may find meaningful.

    I am who I am and I am not a figment of the imagination of anyone else.

    I am learning about the attitudes and values of people who, however unawares, abuse other people.

    Surely, for anyone who, unawares, abuses other people, my work surely ought to be awfully irritating indeed.

    When, however, during the typical terrible twos or infant-child transition or infant child discontinuity, those who are irritated by what I am doing were originally irritated by someone other than me.

    Anyone else, other than me, really understand how the dance of transference-countertransference really works within dialogue?

    There are people experiencing dastardly abuse at the behest and by the actions of some top tier folks, such as Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker.

    Some such folks have asked me to sort out what can usefully be done besides playing increasingly tragedy-compounding reciprocal lame blame game silliness.

    Perhaps you never carefully studied Redl and Wineman, and Fairbairn, and Szasz, and Kohut, and Breggin, and Miller, and Scaer, and Laing, and Otto, and Schmidt, and Werkmeister, and Elsasser, and several hundred more. I did.


  482. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:53 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    How about you simply refuting the challenges to your assertions.


  483. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:54 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Or even better, how about you starting your own blog and annoy people with your evasions and lies there instead.


  484. Buddha,
    You are asking a lot! :)


  485. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:57 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    But none of it unreasonable, raff.


  486. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 9:00 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    Buddha Is Laughing 1, March 23, 2011 at 8:41 pm

    Awww. You’re simply not that hard to figure out, troll. But then again, we’ve come to expect delusions of grandeur from one who has compared himself to Einstein, Hawking and Galileo.

    So how about refuting the following:

    I shall insert my comments using italics as here showm

    Your postulate about the a value of legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process is both irrational and destructive as

    1) legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process is the alternative process to personal self-help adversarial dispute resolution which results in the tyranny of the strong over the weak and often violence and

    You use a false dichotomy here. I shall mention only one of many alternatives, to wit, the method of Non-violent Communication of Dr. Marshall Rosenberg. Your point 1) is thus refuted.

    2) that such an alternative to self-help dispute resolution somehow creates adversity (adversity which in fact is caused simply by human nature, human interaction and circumstance) when what legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process does is remove the potential for violence from adversity and is thus a cornerstone of maintaining civilization over anarchy and tyranny.

    Rosenberg’s Non-violent Communication averts the potential for such violence before it can happen when used in a timely way. Your point 2) is thus refuted.

    3) Courts of some form have been an integral part of every civilization since Sumer. Courts in the adversarial mode are the form most likely to encourage justice as they are the form that most encourages equity – a necessary component of justice – by allowing all sides of a dispute to present their arguments and evidence as to how a neutral judge should rule on a given case, thus allowing all sides an impartial hearing.

    The Inuit civilization, prior to the European intrusion, had no such courts. Your point 3) is thus refuted.

    Do so without fallacious logic, appeals to religion, appeals to your own misplaced authority, making up a definition, distorting history or otherwise lying.

    Already accomplished.

    Until you can disprove those statements in a formally correct and factually honest manner?

    This question? makes no sense to me, it is an isolated clause and not a sentence; however, your false claims of 1), 2), and 3) have already been refuted with verifiable facts.

    You will remain completely and utterly defeated in your “work” and relegated to the depths of trollery and nuisance posting.

    I have not been “defeated” in any way or manner whatsoever.

    If you are half as smart as you think you are, Galileo-boy, you should at least be able to make an attempt to do so and do so cogently, logically and without material misrepresentations. Because you’re “collecting data on us”? Isn’t an answer to the challenges to your postulate. It’s simply more evasion and self-aggrandizing. What you are being is a selfish invasive pest and a prick. But as long as you persist in spreading your bullshit here? We’ll be glad to tear it down right behind you, enemy of civilization and the Constitution.

    The usually well-hidden mechanisms of child abuse, rather well studied some years ago by German psychiatrist, Alice Miller, are my focal concern, and my concern includes the effects of such abuse from one generation to the next.

    You sure made that easy for me, though I wonder whether you can fathom how simple and easy it was for me to demolish your claims because I am inclined to guess that you will not recognize their being demolished, no matter what I would ever do or not do.


  487. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 9:05 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Buddha Is Laughing, March 23, 2011 at 8:54 pm

    Or even better, how about you starting your own blog and annoy people with your evasions and lies there instead.

    ####################################

    Starting my own blog is not a part of my present research protocol.

    Do you really believe in telling others about themselves without knowing the persons you are so telling? There is a name for that phenomenon…


  488. Dr. Harris,

    I hadn’t engaged you on-topic per your discussions because it appeared clearly to me that you believe them completely. To try and discuss why I personally don’t see eye-to-eye would be to open myself up to the world in ways in which I don’t want to – only of course to see nothing change.

    You believe as you do. Obviously you have to cast your work upon the water and let it be of value as it may.

    But now that I’m here…

    I don’t believe it “letting people off the hook.” In other words, not assigning blame. Not for some people.

    People hurt other people sometimes. Usually because they’re not aware of the consequences that they’re having on others. Sometimes because it isn’t important enough; what they gain is more important to such individuals than the pain they cause. And when those who have been hurt inform the perpetrator how they have been hurt, and the perp will simply not accept that they have been the cause of said person’s pain and simply choose to live in a lie, fuck them. Justice please – preferably in this life, in the next if it exists and comes down to that.

    People do wrong sometimes. And people do wrong when they hurt others. That not everyone is willing to acknowledge pain that they’ve been the source of, AND make the necessary amends… well, here then is the uncrossable divide between you and I. Crossable in wishing you well, but not crossable in that what you believe stinks for me.

    Of course I wish you well. But that’s me and we all know you’re you.


  489. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 9:32 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    First, the three points:

    1) There is no false dichotomy there. It is a statement of fact. Until you can disprove the truthfulness of the fact as asserted and do so with evidence, you have not disproven the fact. Thus nothing is refuted.

    2) Rosenberg’s Non-violent Communication is a bunch of New Age-y psychobabble based on yet another faulty premise. NVC begins by assuming that we are all innately compassionate – which is nonsense in the face of the psychological reality of sociopaths and psychopaths who are inherently absent compassion but may still be semi-functional in society and thus creating interactions that can and will cause adversity. NVC has no application to legal disputes or the field of law. None. You’re applying, yet again, an inappropriate tool for the job. Even if everyone were equally compassionate, that would still not eliminate adversity. People still get wronged as a wrong is a matter of relative perception. You are also committing the logical error of argument by non-sequitur also known as the informal fallacy of square logic: A complex argument which is an iteration of non-sequitur arguments used as a premise for an unrelated conclusion. Thus nothing is refuted.

    3) The Inuit had a tribal/shamanistic culture that settled disputes by either violence or appeals to tribal or shamanistic authority. They were a culture, not a civilization that lived in large groups. They didn’t live in large enough groups to merit formal structures like codified laws and courts but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have rules. In fact, they had three sets of rules:
    * maligait refers to what has to be followed
    * piqujait refers to what has to be done
    * tirigusuusiit refers to what has to be avoided
    If any of these rules were broken, the tribal elder and/or the shaman (angakkuq) would intervene. This is a primitive state known as rudimentary law that is only possible in small groups living largely in isolation. That they had no formal courts is irrelevant as they did have a person in the tribe who indeed functioned as a judge. Again, you are attempting to argue by non-sequitur/using square logic – a logical fallacy yet again.

    Now, the follow up conditions (including your answers in italics):

    Do so without fallacious logic, appeals to religion, appeals to your own misplaced authority, making up a definition, distorting history or otherwise lying.

    Already accomplished.

    Oh, but mission not accomplished, Brian. You falsely characterized a statement of fact as a false dichotomy and did not refute the truth of the statement with any evidence and you committed two logical fallacies back to back.

    Until you can disprove those statements in a formally correct and factually honest manner?

    This question? makes no sense to me, it is an isolated clause and not a sentence; however, your false claims of 1), 2), and 3) have already been refuted with verifiable facts.

    But the question makes perfect sense as the truthfulness of my claims still stand as you 1) failed to prove a false dichotomy and failed to refute the truth of the assertion in an evidentiary manner, 2) committed the logical error of square logic/argument by non-sequitur and 3) committed the logical error of square logic/argument by non-sequitur. Galileo wouldn’t make the same logical error twice in a row!

    You will remain completely and utterly defeated in your “work” and relegated to the depths of trollery and nuisance posting.

    I have not been “defeated” in any way or manner whatsoever.

    Oh, but yes, Brian, you have been defeated in every way and manner but namely by logic and fact. Your “work” is indefensible crap, your posts are full of antisocial destructive trollery and your postings are a complete nuisance that only serve to make you feel important and annoy every-fucking-one else. You cannot prove your assertions, ergo, you have been defeated. Lost. Sent away a loser in the contest of ideas.

    Now be a gentleman and retire from the field.


  490. Buddha,
    You are correct…nothing unreasonable.


  491. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 10:03 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Buddha Is Laughing, March 23, 2011 at 9:32 pm

    You have stunningly well validated my view that there are no words in the universe which I can write about anything which you will not, as a matter of blind faith, automatically reject with absolute prejudice.

    Within absolute blind prejudice, only absolute blind prejudice is reasonable, thanks for proving this.

    You have much helped me understand the slave-owner mindset. They also resolutely thought they were treating their purported inferiors properly, much as it seems to me you do.

    Changing the name of a process (i.e. the connotation of the process) neither changes the process nor its denotation.


  492. Dr. Harris:

    they are indeed slave masters.


  493. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 10:15 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    If the present system of law did not impose upon me a structure of law which precludes my being in compliance with it as a matter of definition, I would be content for those who believe in the adversarial system to use it for their own purposes so long as they never impose it upon anyone who believes otherwise.

    I am very familiar with the ways attorneys dance around by interchanging denotation with connotation with terrible skill, and proclaim as logic that which defies the basic laws of physics.

    It would make sense to me that those whose work exploits others while entrapping said others in abusive vicious cycles of deceit to do everything possible to keep most people totally in the dark as to what is and is not truthful.

    Sooner or later, those “zombified” by abuse may wake up.

    You who decry what I am doing are getting nowhere in persuading me that my work is improper because your responses are your “spilling your guts” regarding your actual views of ordinary people. That an autistic simpleton like me can get you to so spill your guts as you have been doing may yet astonish some ordinary people who may yet take up the cause for human decency for real.


  494. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 10:20 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Onogonga, March 23, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    Dr. Harris:

    they are indeed slave masters.

    #############################

    Sooner or later (I prefer sooner if possible) the slaves may recognize their being enslaved and be wise enough to not in turn become slave masters while overthrowing their enslavement.

    I do not ask people who “get it” to comment in reply, but I do welcome comments. I deem it wise for anyone who does not have the supposed protection of being in a state-licensed profession with a proper research background to consider commenting anonymously, which I am not doing.

    Think of what stuff has been sent my way before making your identity known. “Slave Masters” tend to be vicious when challenged, as has here been amply and repeatedly shown.


  495. Elaine,
    Another 500!


  496. Latest outrage: Republicans want to cut food stamps and benefits for anyone on strike.

    one section buried deep within the bill adds a startling new requirement. The bill, if passed, would actually cut off all food stamp benefits to any family where one adult member is engaging in a strike against an employer

    Full story here

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/23/959506/-House-Repubs-billcut-off-familys-food-stamps-if-anyone-in-family-on-strike


  497. Otteray,

    I just read about that on Think Progress. The Republicans, as you can see, have their full attention focused on jobs creation. Sometimes, I feel like I’m living in a dystopian society.

    **********

    rafflaw,

    It seems the “Republican governors” posts get people talking.


  498. Elaine, of course they want to create jobs.

    They are having to hire lawyers to pursue the appeal on DADT the DoJ is refusing to appeal because it is an unwinnable case. That should provide full employment for a number of lawyers.

    Then there is the need for a small army of investigators and tax agents to monitor all those wild uteri.

    And we must never forget the agent provocateurs hired to disrupt demonstrations, blogs and the like.

    And who could forget all those call center workers in customer service jobs……………in Bangladesh.

    Of course they want to create jobs. It is just that none of the jobs have to do with building roads, bridges and teaching kids to read and write.


  499. Otteray,

    Let’s add that they’d like to privatize all the public sector jobs.


  500. OS,
    Well said. You forgot about jobs for their mistresses!


  501. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 11:39 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Nate, March 23, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    Dr. Harris,

    I hadn’t engaged you on-topic per your discussions because it appeared clearly to me that you believe them completely. To try and discuss why I personally don’t see eye-to-eye would be to open myself up to the world in ways in which I don’t want to – only of course to see nothing change.

    You believe as you do. Obviously you have to cast your work upon the water and let it be of value as it may.

    But now that I’m here…

    I don’t believe it “letting people off the hook.” In other words, not assigning blame. Not for some people.

    People hurt other people sometimes. Usually because they’re not aware of the consequences that they’re having on others. Sometimes because it isn’t important enough; what they gain is more important to such individuals than the pain they cause. And when those who have been hurt inform the perpetrator how they have been hurt, and the perp will simply not accept that they have been the cause of said person’s pain and simply choose to live in a lie, fuck them. Justice please – preferably in this life, in the next if it exists and comes down to that.

    People do wrong sometimes. And people do wrong when they hurt others. That not everyone is willing to acknowledge pain that they’ve been the source of, AND make the necessary amends… well, here then is the uncrossable divide between you and I. Crossable in wishing you well, but not crossable in that what you believe stinks for me.

    Of course I wish you well. But that’s me and we all know you’re you.

    ####################################

    It is never my purpose to get anyone to believe anything I believe because I believe except when I have a sense of serious and imminent real danger, and then I only seek to get others to consider whether they also recognize real danger worth avoiding.

    Using bioengineering pattern recognition methodologies developed by my doctoral thesis adviser, Dr, Earl E. Gose, and others, I admonished my brother to be screened for possible colon polyps as I was being screened. I worked at explaining the relevance of the Bayesian methods my adviser had developed, only my brother, which is B.A. in psychology and his Ph.D. in Sociology, had been so indoctrinated in frequentist statistics that I had not gotten him to properly understand the nature of the risk until after he had developed terminal cancer.

    As for why I never blame anything or anyone, that is because the way I am autistic allows me to very easily solve certain problems which most people find impossible or nearly impossible to solve. I can give a specific example…

    From Black’s Ninth, page 250, under “proximate cause:

    ” ‘Proximate cause’ — itself an unfortunate term — is merely the limitation which the courts have placed upon the actor’s responsibility for the consequences of the actor’s conduct. In a philosophical sense, the consequences of an act go forward to eternity, and the causes of an event go back to the dawn of human events, and beyond. But any attempt to impose responsibility upon such a basis would result in infinite liability for all wrongful acts, and would ‘set society on edge and fill the courts with endless litigation.’ [North v. Johnson, 58 Minn. 242,59 N.W. 1012 (1894).]”

    Were the adversarial system capable of actually being truthful, the effect of any single identifiable actual proximate cause would be an infinitesimal portion of whatever finite damages actually happened, because no actual (therefore, finite) consequence is itself infinite in effect.

    The simple reality of the present situation of adversarial law is that the courts are already filled with endless litigation, because litigation has yet to cease for the rest of all time.

    I also do not blame anyone or anything because I found how to solve the supposed “infinite regression” problem supposedly presented by using actual cause instead of the legal fiction of proximate cause; the result of actually solving that infinite regression problem, using high-dimension-space, complex-variable, tensor calculus with Bayesian statistical methods is that the actual liability precedes the supposed “big bang.”

    Rather than having some attorneys devise methods of promoting hatred for profit, a simple mutual non-profit insurance pool would resolve every form of harm with vastly better outcomes than any imaginable adversarial method. That this is so has been shown with the introduction of, as two examples, “no-fault divorce” and “no-fault automobile insurance.”

    If it were ever to be truthfully demonstrated as a verifiable and reproducible fact, and not merely as an assertion of blind faith, that one or more mistakes actually made could actually have been avoided through some actually achievable process, then the assigning of liability in preference to mutual non-profit insurance might make biophysically intelligible sense.

    Alas, no one on this blawg and no one else I have ever heard of has been able to provide even one single instance of a mistake actually made and the actually achievable process through which the mistake actually made could actually have been avoided.

    I note that not one person who as-though takes exception to my work has ever show my work to be in error by demonstrating the one thing which would actually rebut my work, the mistake actually made which could demonstrably have been avoided through a demonstrably achievable process, and the difficulty is, to demonstrate the process would require that the mistake actually made become not actually made after it had already actually been made. Dr. Robert Scaer rather well describes the mental mechanism of believing that a mistake already actually made could demonstrably be shown to not actually have been made after it demonstrably had actually been made, time-corrupted learning, and he also defined trauma as time-corrupted learning.

    There is a saying in education and in psychology, “If you are told something often enough, you will come to believe it, no matter what it is.”

    While I find that to indeed be true, what is often enough for one person may not be often enough for another. Because I never “think in words” (that is, I never think in connotations) and because I only think in patterns of meaning (that is, I always think in denotations), and because it makes no sense in terms of denotation to be able to know or understand something not yet learned, no matter how many times I have been told, in whatever manner, “Brian, you made a mistake you could have avoided,” I always find that to be an utterly psychotic notion in terms of denotation. Connotation, on the other hand (that is, thinking in words) can obviously interchange psychosis with reality with perfect ease, and in ways which allow connotative thinkers to be perfectly oblivious to the swap until something sufficiently awful happens as to give notice of the psychotic belief’s presence. And, to maintain the psychotic belief, the additional psychotic (to me, if to no one else) belief in blame is needed.

    I am now beginning to have hints that the need to think in words (connotations, that is), instead of using direct observation denotations, is itself a form of trauma response of form so profoundly addictive (as a displacement psychological defense) as to readily trap some of the best and brightest people in the world within it. Anything which is so profoundly addictive as to be capable of that surely can never be any person’s fault.

    I do not blame for the simple reason that, to blame someone, I would need to be vastly more psychotic than the two episodes of iatrogenic morphine-induced psychosis ever came close to making me.

    To me, the “Thinking in Pictures” as described by Dr. Temple Grandin would be thinking in pictorial connotation and that would be no less protective for me than thinking in words would be.

    To do the math of high-dimension-space, complex-variable, relational-tensor-calculus that solves the theory of everything problem, I need to be in a sufficiently quiet space either dark or with my eyelids closed, so that I can be undisturbed in denotative thinking long enough to solve such problems without interference from words or pictures.

    That is how I solved problems before I was born; before I was able to hear words as connotations and before I was able to have light enter my eyes as pictures.

    During the twenty or so years during which I worked at Cook County Children’s Hospital, I consistently noted that little children processed their experiences as I do until they got to the infant-child transition, and I noted that their inborn truthfulness was fading fast.

    Some time ago, I included a short sentence in one of my posted comments:

    “Demons are make-believes which make people believe in Demons.”

    Blame is one such demon to me (again, even if to no one else)…


  502. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 11:43 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    Sorry a bold off html code right before the excerpt from Black’s Ninth got away from me, somehow.

    I only make unavoidable mistakes, which is how and why they sometimes happen. The happen because they were not avoided because, in the actual context of the mistake, they are not recognized before they happen.

    That is so simple that I understood it before I was born…


  503. on 1, March 23, 2011 at 11:48 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    raff,

    You mean “mistress” isn’t a full time job?
    ______

    Brian,

    Nothing I have said defies the laws of physics, however, physics – Newtonian, quantum mechanical and theoretical – are not the appropriate tool(s) for evaluating law or the role of law in society in any case.

    Nothing I have said is untrue or illogical. I have provided clean, clear logic, truthful statements of fact and proofs.

    By contrast,s most of what you have said is both untrue and illogical with inappropriate and/or insufficient proof to meet even the lowest standards of judgment for law or science – both of which employ rigorous proofing processes.

    You lost the challenge to prove your ideas. You failed to provide a sufficient case for your assertions. And on top of it, you’re a whinny ungracious loser. “Slave master”. That’s just hysterically funny considering I’m sworn to protect the very document that prohibits slavery in this country while you seek to undermine it with your every word.

    Again, I’m not trying to persuade you of anything. You’re (either) insane and/or paid to be a disruption to this blog. You are quite simply beyond convincing because you are firm in the delusions about human nature you base you ideas upon. I’m speaking to others who might mistakenly think – because of your tactic of argumentum verbosium – that you know might what you are talking about when it comes to the law when clearly and demonstrably you do not.

    You espouse ideas that promote the anarchy, violence and the tyranny of the strong over the weak and I proved you wrong.

    That does not mean I’m a “slave master”.

    It simply means I’m correct about the societal necessity and value of the courts and you’re simply . . . not.


  504. Buddha,
    For Walker’s buddies, I am guessing that the mistress will have plenty of “down” time.


  505. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 12:04 am J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Buddha Is Laughing, March 23, 2011 at 11:48 pm

    You espouse ideas that promote the anarchy, violence and the tyranny of the strong over the weak and I proved you wrong.

    ##############################

    I allow that you may indeed sincerely believe that you have proved me wrong in such form of reality as you sincerely believe exists.

    I do not share such belief in such form of reality with you.

    And you have done nothing I can find to prove or otherwise show my biophysics-based research wrong.

    Do you really believe that the human brain is not a physical (aka, biophysical) body organ which has no connection with what is physical? If so, how really remarkable, indeed.

    My brain just happens to be a physical body organ and is therefore subject to the laws of physics as are all things physical.

    Delusions are beliefs within a physical organ (the brain) which, were they actually real in denotation, would violate the laws of physics.

    You just cannot help yourself from validating my work through your claims that the human brain is not a physical organ and is therefor not subject to the laws of physics.

    Buddha Is Laughing, your espoused beliefs are really nifty examples, to me, of what time-corrupted-learning brain trauma can accomplish…

    (Nifty may sometimes be synonymous with “sadly, innocently tragic.)”

    Who wrote to the effect that excessive consistency may be the hobgoblin of a small mind? What on earth might that mean? Is that something about me?


  506. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 12:32 am Buddha Is Laughing

    Oh, it’s not a belief, Brian.

    I have – in fact and reality – proven you wrong about the societal value and necessity of courts. I could do the same thing about the utility of proximate cause too if I wished, but quite frankly your ever expanding insanity is growing boring.

    Your espoused beliefs are a really nifty example of what a delusional and narcissistic mind can accomplish.

    By the way, I never said brains were exempt from physics. I said physics was the wrong tool to examine law. Physics is also the wrong tool to examine the brain, Brian. It’s like trying to fix a car with many complex parts using only a screwdriver or write a complex program using only for/next loops or cooking a six course meal using only a toothpick. It’s only one part of the puzzle. Legal theory exists for the same reasons physics does, Brian. To address and understand a set of specific problems and issues presented by reality. In physics, the primary problems are those presented by the interaction of energy and/or matter. In law, the primary problems are those presented by the interactions of people in both small and large groups. Arguing that physics applies properly to law is just a weak form of square logic. Just because people are made of matter/energy does not mean all their interactions can be described solely by physics. They are a much more complex system than that.

    You are in fact a nuisance. Motivation wise, at worst, you are a troll. At best, you are a well-intentioned fool, but intentions aside, a fool nonetheless. And you are hopelessly wrong about the law and always will be using your non-sequitur approach. You lack both tools and context to handle the issues you would speak to and a fundamental misunderstanding of the basics of an area that is quite frankly not your expertise. You’re like a baker trying to build a bridge: just because you know what one looks like doesn’t mean you know how or why it works and trying to design one based on your limited knowledge is a recipe for people getting hurt.


  507. Dr. Scribe:

    Seems reasonable to me, I wouldn’t even give them food stamps if they were on strike. Why would you want to subsidize that sort of behaviour? If they want to go on strike let their union pay for them to live. Why should the family of 4 trying to make ends meet, with the father or mother possibly working 2 jobs, be forced to support some jackass who has a job but refuses to work because he doesn’t like the fact that he may have to clean a toilet?

    I wouldn’t give them unemployment benefits either. Let them subsist on their savings and union dues. Maybe they would then think twice about striking and only strike if they had a real beef with wages or working conditions.

    That is the problem with socialism, pretty soon you run out of other people’s money. But not before ignoring reality and thinking the other person owes you a living.

    I for one resent having to pay for someone to live who is perfectly capable of going to work. If I were management I would just fire them and hire people who were actually willing to work for a living. The stories I have heard from friends about union labor are sickening. Nothing but a bunch of parasitic thugs as far as I can tell. I know it didn’t used to be that way as my grandfather and uncle were union men. But back then they paid their own way and the union had a strike fund set up.

    Now they are just the brown shirts of the progressive party. Funny how only a very few private sector employees even belong to a union now.


  508. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 8:11 am Uncle Social, BS, MS no PhD

    “Physics is also the wrong tool to examine the brain, Brian.”

    WRONG! We use MRI’s, CAT and other tools created by physics research to study the brain everyday.

    So physics is used as a tool to study the brain.

    Looks like Brian is the one with the brains here.


  509. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 8:29 am Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    Unkie,

    Brian is lost in his own Utopia. You may go look for him and bring him home.


  510. Dr. Scribe:

    here is what some people thought about the New Deal in 1934:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/sns-pod-1934-cartoon-pic,0,7114709.photo

    I particularly liked the “young pinkies from Harvard” touch. So true but now they are just plain red.

    The sign on the lower left is apt as well.

    “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
    Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.
    Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.
    Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them.”

    George Santayana


  511. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 8:42 am Uncle Social, MS, BS no PhD

    Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd:

    Brian does not need to be found, he is where he is and he knows where that is so I do not need to find that which is not lost.


  512. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 8:47 am Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    Maury,

    You are so smart. You have a brain, right? When do you think it will kick in gear along with your mouth?

    The problem with what you are saying is corporate greed has gotten to you. You are the pawn and when they spawn you will be long gone.

    The problem with what you are saying is not what you are saying but how you are using it. I bet you a quarter that not one person that obtained employment said that, right?

    If you are correct, then Nevada, Arizona and parts of California would be with out electricity. When people heard about this, they took risks. Over 42,000 men applied for 5,000 jobs. I wonder what the other 37,000 thought? The population is guessed to have been about 121,767,000 that is a lot of people without work.


  513. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 8:59 am Otteray Scribe

    Brian, you are becoming more and more bizarre with every passing moment. You have posted dozens of statements, using thousands of words, and you have yet to make a point. You set up sockpuppet accounts and then lie about it. Do you have a point? If so, please tell us what is your point and be done with it. Instead we have long rambling and largely incoherent screeds railing against the legal system which is based on the adversarial system. If you have some grandiose notion that singlehandedly you will overturn a legal system that has been evolving for thousands of years, you are delusional. It is not a perfect system, because is it administered by humans. Justices Alito, Thomas and Scalia on the SCOTUS are examples of how things can go wrong. On the other hand, I see news stories of parking garages collapsing during construction. We are currently watching the nuclear nightmare in Japan unfold as well, so we know engineering wizards make fatal errors as well.

    Name calling and gloating over imagined semantic gotcha points is not argument–it is juvenile. You have become tiresome. If it is your intent to disrupt adult conversations on a legal blawg, you have managed that. Just be aware that you are not the object of admiration around here, but are an annoyance, much like being alone in a dark room with a mosquito.

    I must say, that while it was difficult to wade through your poor writing, I got the impression you lost a custody lawsuit over your grandchild after a family tragedy. Obviously, losing a child is traumatic and you have my condolences about that. But it was not the loss of your child, that we are discussing. It was the subsequent litigation. You apparently lost a custody battle over a grandchild–although even that is somewhat unclear due to your disconnected rambling. You name several members of the bar and make some very serious allegations against them, which if true, are actionable. If they are not true, then you are libeling several professionals who might be interested in coming after you for that.

    I have an idea, and several others here seem to agree; you were your own worst enemy in that litigation. Frankly, if you behaved in a trial the way you behave here, it is a wonder you did not end up in jail for contempt of court. On that point, while you have not said so, perhaps you did. I don’t care one way or the other if you landed in jail or not, but I know several judges who would have put up with your non-responsive and rambling answers for a short time, before slapping the gavel down on you (figuratively speaking) for evading and non-responsiveness. If you think your style will win points in a court of law, you have another think coming. Furthermore, your willingness to lie, and then lie about lying destroys all credibility you might have managed to hang onto going in. Lie and deny all you want, but your writing style is distinct and cannot get past anti-plagiarism software–not that I need software. Document analysis is one of my specialties.

    You keep rambling about having a Ph.D., and I say so what. So do I. So do several other commenters on this thread. A Ph.D. in engineering does not make you a psychologist, lawyer, baker or great philosopher. Neither does it make you a writer of coherent paragraphs.


  514. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 9:12 am Otteray Scribe

    Maury, you may not realize it, but you summed up your philosophy of life in one word: “resent.” You spell out your feelings for your fellow human beings in a single word. Resent!

    People like you are pitiable for their lack of humanity.


  515. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 9:47 am Buddha Is Laughing

    OS,

    I think you may be on to something there about resentment.

    ____

    Unci Sockpuppet

    “WRONG! We use MRI’s, CAT and other tools created by physics research to study the brain everyday.”

    Not wrong.

    We also use psychology, endocrinology, chemistry, biology, pathology, neurochemistry and information theory to study the brain every day so it looks like physics is still the wrong tool of you wish to address understanding the brain in a holistic manner. In case that word “holistic” confuses you, it means “relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts”. So it would appear that studying the brain solely with physics is about a useful as trying to build a space shuttle using only a hot glue gun. Which was the point of the entire statement about physics being the wrong tool – while useful, it’s the wrong tool to understand the brain because it gives narrow bandwidth answers and is insufficient in and of itself to address the complete system.

    So that would still be you that’s both wrong and still coming up short in the brains department, Glue Gun.


  516. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 9:55 am Otteray Scribe

    Brian, engineering and physics also helped create the surgeon’s scalpel, but knowing how to make a scalpel does not make you a brain surgeon.


  517. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 10:19 am Stamford Liberal

    BIL,

    “Either way, I end up laughing and you end up with a wedgie”

    At the rate these trolls are going, it will be an Atomic Wedgie …


  518. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 10:24 am Uncle Sock Puppet, BS, MS no PhD

    Physics under girds a good many of those sciences you mention.

    So yes I think physics is a good science to study the brain with. And also those other things you mentioned.

    But for shear understanding of how the brain works? I would say physics has a very large role to play.

    I see you are long on verbiage and short on grey matter.


  519. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 10:34 am Buddha Is Laughing

    And mathematics underpins physics, Unci Wants To Play The Mother Of All Sciences Game. So what? That doesn’t make either math or physics in and of themselves the appropriate tool to study the brain in a holistic manner. I realize that multiple tool use may be too difficult a concept for someone with your stunted intellect to comprehend, but do try to keep up.


  520. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:17 am J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Otteray Scribe, March 24, 2011 at 8:59 am

    Brian, you are becoming more and more bizarre with every passing moment. You have posted dozens of statements, using thousands of words, and you have yet to make a point. You set up sockpuppet accounts and then lie about it. Do you have a point?

    ########################################

    Otteray Scribe:

    You may be sincere; I have no way to test that. You are, however, absolutely and totally mistaken regarding the comedians who are deceiving you into believing that I have ever posted anything on this Turley blawg using any name other than “J. Brian Harrisk, Ph.D., P.E.”

    Given your sincere and totally mistaken belief regarding my using any name other than “J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.,” I here request that someone who knows Professor Turley sufficiently well would usefully ask Professor Turley, if he has not already done so, ask some Interent-competent people at George Washington University and/or WordPress to verify that I am not doing any form of sockpuppetry.

    For myself, I would prefer that (after Professor Turley has properly verified that I have never posted a comment here using any other name than “J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.”) he not disclose this on his blawg because that would interfere with my learning about people who are of liberal political philosophy and tyrannical political process.

    The “theory espoused opposed to theory in use” mindset which I have found characteristic of some few “top lawyers” is a remarkable (to me) form of dissociative trauma response, and one which requires more study than I have yet been able to accomplish.

    I write as I do because I have never found a more effective way to elicit the data I need to complete my field work research.

    I do not make points. The making of points is possible only through using connotative thinking, something I simply can not an therefore do not, do.

    The making of points is a declarative brain function; my work is within the procedural brain function, where processes, and not points, are the means of understanding experience within environmental context.

    In my work thinking only in connotation is purely the result of shattering forms of traumatic brain injury.

    Bruce H. Lipton, a former University of Wisconsin – Madison cell biologist, wrote “The Biology of Belief,” and I have the 7th edition, Hay House, Oct. 2009.

    My work is compatible with the work of neurologists and other biological and biophysical scientists who have actually studied the nature, structure, and process of human brain functionality using the methods of the “hard sciences.”

    With people whose life experiences have resulted in “thinking in points,” my work is pointless, and it is so because my work, when put into the form of “points” has been designed and developed specifically, exactly, and precisely to be pointless. And that, if you will, is the sole point of my work.

    There is a “story” of the Confucian tradition, which I found a while ago in updated form on the Internet:

    If I hear it, I forget it.
    If I see it, I remember it.
    If I do it, I understand it.
    If I say it, I internalize it.

    Hearing, as a temporal stream of neurological signals, is one-dimensional.

    Seeing, as a temporal stream of neurological signals, is two-dimensional

    Doing, as a temporal stream of neurological signals is at least four-dimensional (three spatial dimensions and one time dimension).

    Saying as a stream of neurological signals, is of very high (beyond 4) dimensions; saying includes, and is not limited to, doing.

    A string of points is effectively dimensionless, for no finite number of points will contain any area of volume whatsoever.

    What may be named “traditional analysis” reduces a complex phenomenon to a collection of points, for it deconstructs a phenomenon into its isolated component parts, thereby destroying awareness of the relationships among the components, only the relationships are also components of the intact phenomenon.

    Because the core of my work is in stark contrast with long-standing human traditions, and because those traditions have been formed so as to exclude the core of my work from conscious awareness, there are no methods within the longstanding human traditions which exclude my work which include my work.

    Such is the inherent nature of a completely new paradigm, as my work has been described by some folks who have made the effort required to understand the work sufficiently well as to be capable of evaluating it within any intelligible model of scientific integrity.

    Demonstrate the actual making of a mistake and its actual temporal-subsequent avoidance, which is what I observe to be the core of The Adversarial Principle, and my work will be shown to truthfully be silly garbage at best.

    In a world model comprised only of points, all things impossible are possible because a world comprised only of points is empty of content because it has no space wherein content can reside.

    Human brain plasticity is a stunningly remarkable biophysical phenomenon, indeed!

    In a world only of points, that rabbit hole is bottomless because it also is topless.

    I am beginning to wonder whether thinking only in points makes a person effectively both bottomless and topless; if so, I see a difficulty for people who are standing up, for the brain is on top, and a topless person must be one without a properly functioning brain?

    So, my work is deliberately designed to be pointless; else my work would not exist. I do not make points and this sentence and its immediate prior are both pointless, on purpose.

    It is my purpose to do pointless work because my work is of process and not of points. Get the process?

    My sequence of posted comments are of process…

    In a world only of points, there is no process.


  521. @Scribe: I am reading Roy Baumeister right now (“Is There Anything Good About Men?”) and I think he’d have a thing to say about resentment. In particular, a pretty good argument for resentment in men. I hypothesize that Maury is a failed man; he has failed to get rich, is frustrated with his sex life (or lack thereof), and in his climb to the top has fallen short of his younger aspirations. So he needs somebody to resent for this state of affairs, and chooses to believe in myths and illogical shit he cannot prove or justify; because the alternative is admitting the problem is him: He lacks the ability, the brains and the self-discipline to get what he wants or be who he wants.

    That is why he resents people that are far worse off then he is; he thinks they are getting something he doesn’t get. He thinks life has been unfair to him. I don’t doubt that it has; life is unfair to most people, but he is blaming his fellow victims, fighting their own oppression, instead of their common enemy — And ironically that is because their common enemy is who Maury aspired to join!


  522. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:20 am Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    Psychophysics is a branch of psychology that studies the relationship between the physical properties of stimuli and our psychological perceptions of them. E.g., “color” is a psychological perception of specific wavelengths of the visible spectrum of light. Color does not exist without an eye to see it. Every sensory modality has similar interesting relationships with the physical world.

    Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_is_psychology_related_to_physics#ixzz1HWxovtbA

    Please sit on this an spin.


  523. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:25 am Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    Mr. C.,

    The uses of resentment

    Examines the human emotion of resentment. How this is one of the most futile and destructive emotions; Opinion that many people spend more time dwelling on the wrongs supposedly done to them than they spend dwelling on the wrongs they have done to others; How resentment is more dependent on our inner needs than upon our outer circumstances; Psychological function resentment serves; The importance of victimhood in American culture.
    By Theodore Dalrymple, published on March 01, 1995

    Are you a victim or are you trying to make others the victim. Think very carefully before you expound upon your response, please?

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199503/the-uses-resentment

    Ah my kind sir, the answer at last.

    OF ALL THE FUTILE AND DESTRUCTIVE EMOTIONS TO WHICH HUMAN BEINGS ARE PREY, PERHAPS THE MOST UNIVERSAL IS RESENTMENT. SURELY THERE CAN BE FEW PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT WASTED MANY HOURS OR EVEN YEARS OF THEIR LIFE DWELLING ON THE WRONGS SUPPOSEDLY DONE TO THEM. IN MY EXPERIENCE, PEOPLE GENERALLY SPEND RATHER LESS TIME DWELLING ON THE WRONGS THEY HAVE DONE TO OTHERS.


  524. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:29 am Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    Speaking of annoying people, where is that Annoying You?

    I have a few things I want to say to it and get them off of my chest so I won’t have resentments. Have you ever taken a look at what it is really posting?

    But not as annoying as Mr. Harrisk.


  525. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:36 am J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Buddha Is Laughing, March 24, 2011 at 10:34 am

    And mathematics underpins physics, Unci Wants To Play The Mother Of All Sciences Game. So what? That doesn’t make either math or physics in and of themselves the appropriate tool to study the brain in a holistic manner. I realize that multiple tool use may be too difficult a concept for someone with your stunted intellect to comprehend, but do try to keep up.

    ##################################

    I have never posted a comment on the Turley blawg as “Unci” or under any name other than “J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.”

    However, as it seems to me that you, BiL, and OS carry on as though you know and understand everything knowable and understandable, perhaps you can tell me of what the universe is observably made, how it so so made, why it is so made, and how it became to be so made…

    I find that three simple processes, which have traditionally been thought of as “the trinity,” are sufficient, from a quantum-mechanical perspective, to accomplish what I asked you to demonstrate that you can do. Indeed, the traditional Gloria Patri is a lovely account when some “religious words” are replaced with some “scientific words.”

    Matthew 19:14, “But Jesus said, ‘Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me; for such is the kingdom of heaven.’ ”

    My parents had kept enough of their time of being little children that they did not “suffer” my retaining the kingdom of heaven into which I was conceived and born.

    The world in which I find myself living is, and always has been, that promised kingdom of heaven. In that kingdom, life is simple. Whatever happens, as it happens, is both necessary and sufficient, and, whatever does not happen, as it does not happen, is both unnecessary and impossible. Such is the unbroken experience of the whole of my life, without even a hint of a moment of exception. How is such possible? It is possible and it is real because, for the process of existence, all things are possible.

    What is do, I do for those who have eyes to see, ears to hear, heart to care, and will to learn and understand.


  526. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:36 am Buddha Is Laughing

    The only spinning going on here is yours, single tool user. I never said physics and psychology were not related. I said it’s stupid to use physics as the sole tool for addressing psychology. Do you know why there are different nouns for different concepts?

    It’s because they are different things, Unci Simpleton.

    psychology \sahy-kol-uh-jee]\, n.,

    1: the science of mind and behavior
    2 a : the mental or behavioral characteristics of an individual or group b : the study of mind and behavior in relation to a particular field of knowledge or activity

    is not . . .

    physics \ˈfi-ziks\, n.,

    1: a science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions

    is not . . .

    chemistry \ˈke-mə-strē\, n.,

    1: a science that deals with the composition, structure, and properties of substances and with the transformations that they undergo
    2a : the composition and chemical properties of a substance

    is not . . .

    engineering \-ˈnir-iŋ\, n.,

    1: the activities or function of an engineer
    2a : the application of science and mathematics by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people b : the design and manufacture of complex product

    is not . . .

    law \ˈlȯ\, n.,

    1a (1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority (2) : the whole body of such customs, practices, or rules (3) : common law b (1) : the control brought about by the existence or enforcement of such law (2) : the action of laws considered as a means of redressing wrongs; also : litigation (3) : the agency of or an agent of established law c : a rule or order that it is advisable or obligatory to observe d : something compatible with or enforceable by established law e : control, authority

    2 a often capitalized : the revelation of the will of God set forth in the Old Testament b capitalized : the first part of the Jewish scriptures : pentateuch, torah — see bible table, ecclesiastical law

    3: a rule of construction or procedure (the laws of poetry)

    4: the whole body of laws relating to one subject

    5a : the legal profession b : law as a department of knowledge : jurisprudence c : legal knowledge

    Different tools for different jobs.

    Like you using wiki.answers as is a perfect tool if you just want to make yourself feel better about being simple.

    Enjoy your wedgie.


  527. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:44 am Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    Its not rocket science. It’s like Mind over matter and you don’t have a mind so it don’t matter.


  528. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:45 am J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E., March 24, 2011 at 11:17 am

    TYPOGRAPHICAL ERROR CORRECTION:

    “J. Brian Harrisk, Ph.D., P.E.”

    IS INCORRECT. MY SOURCE TEXT DOES NOT HAVE A “k” in it.

    The correct text, if the Internet does not blunder, is:

    “J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.”

    No communication process is ever perfectly without error…


  529. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:47 am Buddha Is Laughing

    Brian,

    You’re the one claiming to have a paradigm shift in understanding the universe on par with Einstein or Galileo. Neither me nor OS have laid claim to perfect knowledge let alone the hubris you’ve displayed, so you can put a sock in that nonsense.

    However, to answer your question, the universe is composed of baryonic matter that coalesced from the high energy state initially found at the big bang. Matter is simply slow moving energy but because of this phase change, it has different physical properties than pure energy. The universe is made of up in toto of energy that we discretely divide into the subgroups called matter and energy because of the different ways they interact within the environment as confined by the boundary of this m-brane of the multiverse.

    Also, you’ve been sufficiently warned that appeals to religion are not valid science nor valid law, so in this instance, I really don’t give a damn what Jesus says.


  530. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:49 am Buddha Is Laughing

    Unci Sockpuppet,

    Go run crying to Andy because you’ve mistaken me from someone who would give a damn about your assessment of my intelligence, Oh He Who Is Unable To Differentiate And Use Multiple Tools.

    By the way, when you pull the underwear out, I suggest looking for your head while you’re back there.


  531. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:50 am Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    Albert Einstein on:

    Religion and Science

    Read this you evil doubter.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

    They do coexist.


  532. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:52 am Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    My head ain’t where you leave yours. Andy and Staff send the very best to you as usual. There is a place for you someplace. Maybe off the coast of Florida.


  533. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 12:02 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    coexist \ˌkō-ig-ˈzist\, v.i.,

    1: to exist together or at the same time

    science \ˈsī-ən(t)s\, n.,

    1: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding

    2a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge

    3a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science

    religion \ri-ˈli-jən\, n.,

    1a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

    2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

    3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness

    4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

    Words do have meaning. Religion and science are not the same thing hence different nouns. And the verb “coexist”? It is not the same thing as the verb “merge”.

    merge \ˈmərj\, v.t.,

    1 archaic : to plunge or engulf in something : immerse

    2: to cause to combine, unite, or coalesce

    3: to blend gradually by stages that blur distinctions

    Brian asserts he seeks to merge the two, not that they coexist. Coexisting is a parallel process. Merging is a unitary process. Because science depends upon verifiable empirical proof via the scientific method and religion depends upon unverifiable faith, the two are never capable of merger as a basic order of operation, but merely coexistence.

    English.

    You should get some, Unci Half-wit.


  534. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 12:03 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Wow.

    Not sure where that blown out HTML tag came from, but apologies, ya’ll.


  535. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 12:04 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    And yes, I know my head is not where yours is. Mine is presently residing squarely upon my shoulders. Yours in demonstrably elsewhere. Perhaps somewhere off the coast of Uranus.


  536. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 12:06 pm Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    It came from the one that says, Mind over Matter. You don’t gotta mind so it don’t matter. Can’t you get something right today at least.


  537. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 12:09 pm Auntee Social, BS, MS, Phd

    That maybe true, but if you would stay out of everyone elses anus and tend to your own anus, then well, we’d all be happier that things didn’t smell like shit.


  538. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 12:12 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Thanks for admitting your head is up your own ass.

    A little truthfulness goes a long way.


  539. “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
    Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes. Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.
    Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them.” George Santayana

    Maury,

    How ironic that you use this quote. It is an irony that I’m sure is lost on you. Santayana was brilliant and this quote represents a truism that has unfortunately plagued mankind. The irony is of course that you are profoundly guilty of that which you accuse others of doing. There you go projecting again. You’ve failed to learn from the history of this country for the last 31 years. What you espouse politically is the system of thought and economic policy that has held sway since Reagan and it has been an utter failure. That you fail to recognize it only serves as an example of what Santayana was postulating.

    Schmuck.


  540. When I was a child, between the ages of 6 and 11, I was profoundly unhappy and felt alienated from those around me. To deal with this angst I would plot revenge against my tormentors, in fantasy. Since I had felt hurt so much, I never allowed myself to want to destroy even those I despised and felt had hurt me. My idead was that my revenge would be in showing people the hurt they inflicted on me in such a manner that they would be racked with guilt for mistreating me.

    The fantasy would consist of making plans whose substance had depth only in thinking about what I proposed to do, yet I for years avoided the fact that I really had no viable plan
    to effectuate my goals. Around age 12 I finally began to admit to myself that these “plans” were pipe dreams, not to be taken seriously, since I never even got beyond a rudimentary planning stage. When I had recognized the fantasy’s for what they were, I was able to use them constructively to relieve hurt and anxiety,
    while understanding that they would never get any further. This assisted in my maturation and left me less frustrated with the travails of my life.

    After all the verbiage Brian has produced, with all his talk of his grandiose experiments and conceptualizations, he has never explained in depth just what his research is. He talks around it
    constantly and intertwines it with grandiose claims, with apparently nothing behind them. I believe he is stuck in a similar stage to that I went through in my unhappy childhood, only he uses the defense mechanism of Denial to cloud his vision of what he really is doing.

    I feel compassion for him and his pain. Unfortunately, he expresses this immaturity in a torrent of verbiage that is even from a charitable sense annoying and a provocation of hostility.
    I’ve never suggested banning anyone here, but damn I wish he would just go away and get some help somewhere.


  541. “In case that word “holistic” confuses you, it means “relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts”.

    Buddha,

    That is so true and it is a concept lost on Brian. We are not a “brain” controlling the body around us. As your words show you know and reject the mind/body split developed by religionists about 600 years ago to bolster the silly concept of “original sin.” We are all “organisms,” where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. While the brain is used as a metaphor for our control center, it is but one aspect of our entire self, a human organism.

    My wife and I were discussing this last night with respect to my heart transplant and whether I was a “changed” person because i had a new heart. As my closest outside observer she sees me as the same person I’ve always been, just healthier. Originally though, that was in doubt because until my subsequent lung operation a month after my transplant, I wasn’t getting enough oxygen, thus my reasoning was clouded and my temperament more hostile.

    Because the “heart” has long been used as a metaphor for love, courage and feeling, it is given a special place in our pantheon of organs. In truth though, humans also need lungs, livers, kidneys, etc. to go on living. Our brains and our hearts, while of course very important, make up only part of the Gestalt that characterizes any human being.


  542. Stamford,
    I am a little late, but that was a great Wedgie video! It reminded me of a friend who used to hang his little brother on a nail in the garage by his belt. The kid stopped wearing belts for years as a defense mechanism!


  543. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 2:52 pm Stamford Liberal

    rafflaw,

    Wasn’t it great?! Sick little bastards!

    LOL – well, I can’t say I blame the kid, I’d cease wearing one as well to lessen the risk :D


  544. Tony C:

    “In particular, a pretty good argument for resentment in men. I hypothesize that Maury is a failed man; he has failed to get rich, is frustrated with his sex life (or lack thereof), and in his climb to the top has fallen short of his younger aspirations.”

    Did you need to read a book to have an insight like that? Holy shit Batman, I could figure that out without a book. It is kinda like Dr. Scribe talking about the Dunning-Kruger effect, we have a saying for it-“the complete authority of the uninformed”. Been saying it for at least 20 years, so Dunning and Kruger did a study to figure that out? Study the obvious and become a master of it, like you and Otteray Scribe – The Doctors Obvious.

    Except I only resent free loaders because they take and give nothing back to society except for making people like you and Dr. Scribe feel good about yourselves for their social conscience.


  545. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 5:29 pm Otteray Scribe

    Thank you Maury. You did it. I did not think you had it in you. The you say that confession is good for the soul–assuming one has a soul. You write:

    Except I only resent free loaders because they take and give nothing back to society except for making people like you and Dr. Scribe feel good about yourselves for their social conscience

    Emphasis added, in order to point out that you are admitting you have no social conscience and are willing to deride those who do. Son, you have a long and rocky road ahead of you if you happen to fall on hard times. I hope you are strong enough to avoid filing for “socialist” disability and unemployment benefits, or food stamps.


  546. OS,
    I think our friend may sing a different tune when those hard times show up at his door!
    Stamford,
    Lucky for me, we didn’t have a garage and I could run faster than my big brother!


  547. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 5:52 pm Otteray Scribe


  548. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 5:59 pm Stamford Liberal

    rafflaw,

    “Lucky for me, we didn’t have a garage and I could run faster than my big brother!”

    Lmao – As the youngest of three I can safely say that two little legs run mighty fast when you’ve got four big ones chasing after you!


  549. Dr. Scribe:

    there is a distinct difference between a freeloader and someone down on their luck. The freeloader is a different animal entirely.

    A person down on their luck but willing to work deserves the help and anyway they have paid into those social programs when they were working.

    But no, I do not have a “social conscience”. I do have an individual conscience though, especially for people willing to make it under their own efforts and not rely on others for their daily bread unless they have exhausted all their options. Why should the mother of 6 working 2 jobs pay for the mother of 4 who is not working? That seems pretty despicable to me.

    But that is what socialism does, what are you going to do when you have taken everything the rich folk have? That only amounts to maybe $5 or 6K for every man, woman and child in America. Then where are you going to get it from? You will be forced to take from the mother of 6 to pay for the mother 4 since the mother of 4 has a greater “social need” because she doesn’t have a job.

    I wont tell you what I think of that scenario, I imagine you know.


  550. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 6:17 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    Buddha Is Laughing 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:47 am

    Brian,

    You’re the one claiming to have a paradigm shift in understanding the universe on par with Einstein or Galileo. Neither me nor OS have laid claim to perfect knowledge let alone the hubris you’ve displayed, so you can put a sock in that nonsense.

    However, to answer your question, the universe is composed of baryonic matter that coalesced from the high energy state initially found at the big bang. Matter is simply slow moving energy but because of this phase change, it has different physical properties than pure energy. The universe is made of up in toto of energy that we discretely divide into the subgroups called matter and energy because of the different ways they interact within the environment as confined by the boundary of this m-brane of the multiverse.

    Also, you’ve been sufficiently warned that appeals to religion are not valid science nor valid law, so in this instance, I really don’t give a damn what Jesus says.

    ###############################

    My Carleton College Professor of Religion and Physics, Ian G. Barbour is qualified in both religion and science, and has written many books which are of the relationship of science and religion. He gave the Gifford Lectures and was awarded the Templeton Prize in the 1990s and is now Emeritus at Carleton. For brevity, I shall list title and date for the titles I have immediately at hand:

    Christianity and the Scientist, 1960
    Issues in Science and Religion, 1966
    Science and Religion, Ian G. Barbour, ed., 1968
    Science and Secularity, 1970
    Myths, Models, and Paradigms, 1974
    Technology, Environment, and Human Values, 1980
    Religion in an Age of Science, Gifford Lectures Vol. 1, 1990
    Ethics in an Age of Technology, Gifford Lectures Vol. 2, 1993
    When Science Meets Religion, 2000
    Nature, Human Nature, and God, 2002

    As for phyiscs and biology, there is the book by National Medal of Science recipient, Walter M. Elsasser, “The Physical Foundation of Biology,” 1958

    I went to a college in which the world view was far more inclusive of the whole of existence than I guess you can imagine to be possible. Your (apparently much lesser?) education shall not limit my life as I am beginning to guess it limits yours.

    In a subsequent comment posting, I will again repeat the essence of my research. I have put here multiple times already.

    However, let me again include Article I, Section 18, of the Wisconsin Constitution, because it is this article of the Wisconsin Constitution which I find the present form of the Adversarial System violates.

    Freedom of worship; liberty of conscience; state religion; public funds. Section 18. [As amended Nov. 1982] The right of every person to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of conscience shall never be infringed; nor shall any person be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry, without consent; nor shall any control of, or interference with, the rights of conscience be permitted, or any preference be given by law to any religious establishments or modes of worship; nor shall any money be drawn from the treasury for the benefit of religious societies, or religious or theological seminaries. [1979 J.R. 36, 1981 J.R. 29, vote Nov. 1982]

    It is a dictate of my conscience and thus something that shall never be infringed, that the belief that mistakes have been made which could have been avoided such that punishment for failure to have avoided making such mistakes is proper is a purely religious belief of the form of a neurologcial-biophysical religious delusion; such that my being subject to being punished for making a mistake which, by law, but not in fact, I should have avoided is an infringement of the dictates of my conscience and an impermissible interference with the rights of my conscience.

    Given that the Adversarial System claims that people make mistakes they could and should have avoided, and that constitutes interference with of my rights of conscience and an infringement of my right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of my conscience, I set out to determine whether my conscience is in error or whether those who believe in the Adversarial System are in error; it having become vividly clear to me that my right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of my conscience is prohibited by the Adversarial System because the Adversarial System is, to me, “The Evil One.”

    Therefore, to test whether my conscience is in error or whether the Adversarial System is in error, I set out to learn whether any person could refute the truthfulness of the dictates of my conscience, such refutation being the truthful demonstration of a mistake actually made and along with a truthful demonstration of the mistake actually already made being avoidable through any truthfully achievable process. While many folks who believe in the Adversarial System protest my work, not one person has given even one instance of a demonstration which would refute the dictates of my conscience.

    How have I tested the validity of the dictates of my conscience? Through talking with something approaching 4000 people over my lifetime and asking three questions with follow up questions according to how the three initial questions have been answered.
    This process is amply described in my doctoral dissertation, which is available on the Internet and at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

    My thesis and dissertation were put through rigorous examination by my thesis committee, and no committee member found any error or consequence in the research methodology or research findings. My work has been properly peer-reviewed at a level and in detail far beyond what is usual for a scientific paper or typical doctoral thesis and dissertation which are of “normal science” in the sense of being simple extensions of settled work.

    It is the theory of my work that a mistake about the nature of mistakes was present long before the beginning of human pre-recorded history, such that this mistake about the nature of mistakes has pervaded the whole of recorded human history and far before human history began to be recorded. It is because this mistake about the nature of mistakes preceded the whole of recorded human history that no one finds any civilization which has not contained this mistake about the nature of mistakes.

    Those who as-though find fault with my work because it does not conform to the traditions of human society which are based upon the pre-recorded-human-history error which my thesis, dissertation and other work identifies and describes can not understand my work because said traditions exclude my work by mistake. It is necessary to set aside the mistake which excludes my work before my work can become intelligible.

    While I can easily demonstrate my work and its validity to anyone not exceptionally addicted to the fundamental error of social reality as described in my dissertation, those who are profoundly so addicted tend to become exceptionally hostile to my work as an aspect of their addiction. Indeed, it is my consistent observation that the degree of hostility to my work and its findings is a fairly decent measure of addiction to time-corrupted-learning-brain-trauma as described in the work of Dr. Robert Scaer, Dr. Lance Dodes, and many other scientists who have studied the relationship between trauma and addiction.

    When I began posting comments on the Turley blawg, it was my intention to describe my work in order to find a few people who might be willing to seriously evaluate its merits or lack thereof. What happened instead, which I did not expect to happen as it did, was a few people becoming so upset regarding my work and its findings as to label me “fraudulent” or things roughly equivalent to fraudulent. Alas, my being licensed as a Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer means that my work cannot be fraudulent for me to keep my license, for fraud is a form of deception and the National Society of Professional Engineers Code of Ethics prohibits the use of deception in professional engineering.

    I find it profoundly peculiar that people will state that my work is fraudulent yet will not file proper complaints with the Wieconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing. I herewith state, without equivocation, that my work is free of deception.

    I began with a simple idea, one that is simple to test. If mistakes are made which could have been avoided, it would be simple to demonstrate examples which would be impossible to truthfully refute. Alas, no such simple examples have ever been brought to my attention.

    The reason no examples of demonstrations of mistakes made which could have been avoided have been brought to my attention is, as best I can yet discern, that the belief that such mistakes can exist is a delusion, albeit a disastrously addictive delusion.

    I have mentioned before that an early basis of my inquiring into the nature of mistakes with regard to Law and Justice came from many dinnertime conversations with Sidney M. Perlstadt, Esq., and Bessie Lendrum, M.D., during the years 1965-1969.


  551. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 6:18 pm Otteray Scribe

    Maury, I am puzzled. Which is smaller, your knowledge of economics or your compassion? Both are obviously microscopic in size and scope.


  552. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 6:29 pm Otteray Scribe

    OMG. Brian had dinner with a lawyer and a physician more than forty years ago and THAT is the basis of his knowledge? I am underwhelmed.

    BTW, I have a shelf with some books on it too. Actually several shelves. I suppose I must confess that I ran out of shelf space in our library and had to move the overage into a rented storage shed. I could list them I suppose, but listing book titles is irrelevant in a blog.


  553. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 6:54 pm Stamford Liberal

    OS,

    “Maury, I am puzzled. Which is smaller, your knowledge of economics or your compassion? Both are obviously microscopic in size and scope.”

    Lol – I could add to that but … I wouldn’t want to bruise Maury’s fragile ego …

    Oh, what the hell – when a girl tells you size doesn’t matter, she’s lying …


  554. @Maury: Actually it seems typical of you to assume the only thing in a book is the obvious; Baumeister has an insightful thesis, which only a fool would assume I have summarized in a sentence.

    Your problem is that what you think are freeloaders aren’t freeloaders at all. Speaking for myself, I don’t like freeloaders either; I would fine them, jail them, force them to work and garnish their pay for 200% of whatever they lied to get. The only people I am ready to help are the people that really need help; and the reason isn’t to feel good about myself.

    The reason is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Sometimes assistance means the difference in somebody’s life between a minor blip and a full scale financial collapse, which then makes them an even bigger tax burden. Somebody that was required to pay for unemployment insurance in the form of taxes has a right to make a claim on that insurance which may save their home, their health, their marriage, their car, and their kid’s educations. That bit of help we collectively provide can keep them from losing all of that, becoming homeless, turning their kids into wards of the state, or making them so desperate they commit crimes.

    I don’t like freeloaders any more than you do, but my definition of a freeloader is not somebody collecting an insurance benefit to which they are entitled, and especially not being denied that entitlement because some politician doesn’t like them exercising their Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms of speech and assembly and refusing to work for a tyrant trying to blackmail them.

    The discussion isn’t about freeloaders, it is about people that need help. If you resent paying the people that need help after they paid for the insurance guaranteeing that help, then YOU are the taker that gives nothing back.


  555. Tony C:

    a union guy on strike should not be entitled to food stamps, if they are striking for their own benefit then let them pay for it. Why should others be the ones subsidizing their negotiations which will result in a benefit to them. I would not benefit so why should I pay?

    Talking about fairness, it doesn’t seem very fair to me.

    If the company is as bad as you say, they should go look for another job. See how that works, in a good economy it would be possible but socialism doesn’t create good economies. Most are on the ropes and are going to need to be bailed out.


  556. Stamford Liberal:

    ““Maury, I am puzzled. Which is smaller, your knowledge of economics or your compassion? Both are obviously microscopic in size and scope.”

    Lol – I could add to that but … I wouldn’t want to bruise Maury’s fragile ego …

    Oh, what the hell – when a girl tells you size doesn’t matter, she’s lying.”

    Considering I have never been told that, how should I take it?

    Ps My ego isn’t very fragile, but apparently yours is to have to resort to a ridiculous comment like that. You need to start hanging around with a better caliber of man. I imagine the ones you hang out with have small brains so you can feel good about your “intellectual” superiority. I pity the fool that would share your bed.


  557. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 8:03 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    OS,

    Underwhelmed is an understatement.

    And I’m still not sure what an indefensible postulate has to do with the composition of the universe.

    _____

    Brian,

    SHORT ANSWER: There is a difference between committing fraud and being a fraud. No one has ever said you committed fraud (a violation of WI licensing requirement). But you have been called a fraud. Which you are by definition.

    LONG ANSWER: As to filing fraud complaints? Why would I bother? It’s funny that you mention fraud again. Do you even know what the word means? In either a legal context or as a general noun? I don’t think you do.

    What you are engaging in here is not engineering, Brian, ergo not within the purview of the State of Wisconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing. Being a fraud and committing the crime of fraud are two distinct and different things. As far as I know, you have not committed fraud. You are, however, a fraud.

    fraud \ˈfrȯd\, n.,

    1a : deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick

    2a : a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : impostor; also : one who defrauds : cheat b : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be

    The crime of fraud is found in definition 1a – deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right. There is a deceit component to the crime coupled with an intent to do legal harm for personal legal advantage and/or financial gain. While you are repeatedly deceitful (making up meanings to technical terms, “creative” history, etc.), you have not sought to gain profit or advantage from your deceit – only propagate ideas that are manifestly antisocial and anti-civilization. If you were guilty of committing criminal fraud? I would have the state on you like white on rice. And not just the licensing board either. Guys with handcuffs would show up.

    What you are – a fraud – is found in all of definition 2, namely “a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : impostor; also . . . b : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be”. You pretend to be a legal expert based on your engineering certification. You are manifestly and demonstrably not a legal expert.

    This has been proven time and again just as it has been proven that being an engineer in no way qualifies you as an expert on laws and legal systems. You are, to a word, a fraud when you espouse that your background qualifies you to make technical judgments about and evaluations of the law and its functions and roles in society. You can opine all you like. The 1st Amendment guarantees that you can have and express an opinion about anything. However, that doesn’t make your opinion valuable or correct. Your credentials and background are inappropriate so that in putting yourself forth as capable of making technical judgments about and evaluations of the law and its functions and roles in society, you are a fraud. Your opinion about law carries no more weight than any other layman’s opinion and it is most certainly not expert. How do I know this? Because I’m a doctor too. A Juris Doctorate hangs on the wall of my office. I actually am an expert in law and legal systems. That thing you seem to think you are when you are not.

    You are no more qualified to technically address the legal system with the authority of an expert than I am qualified to design a high rise office complex or a generator But then again, I never claimed to be an engineer or an expert in engineering.

    You, on the other hand, have – repeatedly and ad nauseum – claimed that your background in engineering makes you an expert on law and legal systems. That makes you . . . a fraud – a person who is not what he or she pretends to be. While I am not qualified to design a building or a generator, I am qualified to make technical judgments about and evaluations of the law and its functions and roles in society. Including those claims about the law made by engineers playing at being pretend legal experts.

    And when you claim all that bullshit you have claimed about the adversarial process – from it being the root of all child abuse to it promoting tyranny – you are both a fraud (a person who is not what he or she pretends to be) and demonstrating that you don’t know what you are talking about. What arguments you have made in defense of your faulty postulate have been easily and repeatedly dismantled.

    A person who tries to pretend that he is an expert in a field when they are not in a room with actual experts in said field is both a fraud and a fool. Again, being a fraud (and a fool) isn’t against the licensing requirements for engineers in the state of Wisconsin. Committing fraud would be another issue. Like I said, if I had evidence of you committing the crime of fraud, you’d be getting a visit from the cops and your engineering license would be the least of your concerns. However, you have not committed the crime of fraud even though you are a fraud in the non-legal sense of the word when you pretend to be qualified to make technical judgments about and evaluations of the law and its functions and roles in society.

    Ergo, no complaint has been or will be filed with the State of Wisconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing regarding the nonsense you try to propagate here.


  558. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 8:26 pm Anonymously Yours

    Maury,

    What the hell kind of trip have you been taking……Employees don’t pay UE…..The cost is employer borne the same as WC…..Get your facts straight.

    However, you have no social conscience in the least. I hope you never get hurt on the job, get laid off or have a medical illness that prevents you from having an income……When you are ready to retire…How much money do you have saved…..I wanna know…..


  559. Speaking of Brian,

    Who wants Pi?

    3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
    58209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
    82148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128
    48111745028410270193852110555964462294895493038196
    44288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091
    45648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273
    72458700660631558817488152092096282925409171536436
    78925903600113305305488204665213841469519415116094
    33057270365759591953092186117381932611793105118548
    07446237996274956735188575272489122793818301194912
    98336733624406566430860213949463952247371907021798
    60943702770539217176293176752384674818467669405132
    00056812714526356082778577134275778960917363717872
    14684409012249534301465495853710507922796892589235
    42019956112129021960864034418159813629774771309960
    51870721134999999837297804995105973173281609631859
    50244594553469083026425223082533446850352619311881
    71010003137838752886587533208381420617177669147303
    59825349042875546873115956286388235378759375195778
    18577805321712268066130019278766111959092164201989
    38095257201065485863278865936153381827968230301952
    03530185296899577362259941389124972177528347913151
    55748572424541506959508295331168617278558890750983
    81754637464939319255060400927701671139009848824012
    85836160356370766010471018194295559619894676783744
    94482553797747268471040475346462080466842590694912
    93313677028989152104752162056966024058038150193511
    25338243003558764024749647326391419927260426992279
    67823547816360093417216412199245863150302861829745
    55706749838505494588586926995690927210797509302955
    32116534498720275596023648066549911988183479775356
    63698074265425278625518184175746728909777727938000
    81647060016145249192173217214772350141441973568548
    16136115735255213347574184946843852332390739414333
    45477624168625189835694855620992192221842725502542
    56887671790494601653466804988627232791786085784383
    82796797668145410095388378636095068006422512520511
    73929848960841284886269456042419652850222106611863
    06744278622039194945047123713786960956364371917287
    46776465757396241389086583264599581339047802759009
    94657640789512694683983525957098258226205224894077
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    91642193994907236234646844117394032659184044378051
    33389452574239950829659122850855582157250310712570

    Makes more sense than his posts…


  560. AY,
    Don’t confuse us with the facts!
    Bob,
    That would have taken me a day to type those numbers in.


  561. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 9:35 pm Otteray Scribe

    Bob, that makes a lot more sense than Brian’s posts. That is a value we can verify, is reproducible, is based on a mathematical law and is a constant. Ergo, it makes sense.

    Personally, I am intrigued by the Fine Structure Constant which has a value of 137. That is an approximation, since the exact value is 137.035999084(51) more or less according to Richard Feynman’s calculation. The value is thought to vary depending on how far from the observer an event is. The damn thing won’t hold still. In that respect it resembles the “logic” propounded by our trolls.


  562. OS,
    Please, no more math. My head is going to explode!


  563. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 9:58 pm Buddha Is Laughing

    Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    Tasty.

    Tasty.

    Pi.


  564. Raff, I love this stuff. Brian wants to talk about physics and stuff like that, he find the truth of the old adage, ‘be careful what you wish for, you might get it.’

    Every October for the past forty years I have waited with bated breath when the Nobel awards are announced to see if my best friend from high school has won. IMHO, he deserves it for his pioneering work in very dense matter. When we were kids, it is a damn wonder we did not blow something up or get electrocuted.

    I have another friend, a beautiful woman no less, who is one of the few people on the planet who knows how to fire up this monster and get useful data from it. And she could do it before her thirtieth birthday.

    http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&sugexp=elsfph&xhr=t&q=tevatron&cp=4&qe=dGV2YXQ&qesig=LSsCJKpJEce62J57CqrtJw&pkc=AFgZ2tm83NgXkJAAW7A9RHIjL9XceGJJwpuVk3m7EqsWctkgLiPG_REHqLj8IP01Tww3puXXBgxE_2bWChRPfFuKPcVd68vVVQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=960&bih=427

    My first job after graduating from college was design work on this cute toy (link below). I was once on cross examination in a capital murder trial. I made a comment about one of my findings and added that the method was not rocket science. The lawyer’s next question was asked in a sarcastic tone, “And you are not a rocket scientist, either, are you?”

    You know the old adage about not asking a question to which you do not know the answer…..

    http://www.strategic-air-command.com/missiles/Titan/Titan_II_missile_complex.htm


  565. OS,
    I still have nightmares about high school geometry!


  566. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 10:37 pm Anonymously Yours

    raff,

    I still have nightmares about High School….and the First year Law School Exam….


  567. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 10:39 pm Anonymously Yours

    Hey, who are all of these sock puppets….. right term I hope?


  568. AY, several years ago I made an offhand comment to my wife that I would like to go back to school and get a law degree.

    Her response to me was that if I went back to school, I would NEED a lawyer.


  569. OS,
    You don’t want any part of that kind of action!
    AY,
    My first law school exam made me so nervous that I ate an entire bag of M & M’s just while I read the directions!


  570. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 10:56 pm Anonymously Yours

    I understand OS….I made the error of judgment once opening my smart mouth….causing a fight with a wife…..

    We were at a check out and the checker asked I needed a bag….. I said no thank…I am married….How the woman put up with me as long as she did…I don’t know….nearly 2 decades… I was going to say one score…but hey…we have 2 kids…. Now the first wife…. a different story….


  571. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 10:59 pm Anonymously Yours

    raff,

    My First exam…well…I completed it in about 1 and a half hours….it was supposed to be a 3 hour exam….All essay…. I should have stayed longer but I had to go….ended up with a 3.5…..not to bad…


  572. AY,
    I can’t even remember which exam it was!


  573. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:09 pm Anonymously Yours

    raff,

    Unfortunately…If I read it, I can see it….and recall from memory…nearly every aspect…its a good thing and a bad thing….I can assure you…


  574. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:15 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    I am aware of the dirty trick of the adversarial legal system, which is, any statement made and not rebutted or refuted is, by definition true, regardless of any or every fact.

    Therefore, I herewith state, without deception, as a Wisconsin Professional Engineer having a Ph.D. in Bioengineering from the University of Illinois at Chicago, dissertation, “Mental Health and Mental Illness: Cause, Purpose, Cure, and Prevention; A Bioengineering Perspective (1998), that any and all statements to the effect that I am in any way misrepresenting my work and/or my professional competence are mistaken, and those persons who make statements are people who are mistaken; any allegation to the effect that I am in any way a fraud is categorically false, and it is a finding of my doctorate and subsequent research that no mistake made either could or should have been avoided, and thus those who confabulate falsehoods regarding me and my work are unable to know or understand better than they do because of the limitations of their personal circumstances, many of which limitations I apparently happen to not share with them. That they seemingly cannot yet understand my work or its significance is not anything other than evidence that I have work yet to accomplish before such folks will be able to understand my work well enough to have any useful clue as to what it actually is. though my work is of my understanding of the scientific meaning of the teachings of Jesus at the present time. I further state without deception that, at least since early infancy, it has been my conscious vocation to abide in the teachings of Jesus to the limit of my actual ability with no aspect of my life withheld from so abiding. I further state that I am unaware of being anything other than an ordinary person, neither more nor less “special” than anyone else and having neither more nor less worth than anyone else. I further state that I am familiar with John 12:47, in which it is reported in the King James Version that Jesus said, in effect, “And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.” I further state that, as I understand Jesus came not to judge, but to save the world, I cannot abide in the teachings of Jesus if I ever judge any person in any way; hence, in my abiding in the teachings of Jesus, I judge no person and no event. I further state that it is my purpose to love whoever acts though to hate me or my work and to forgive whoever may hurt me that I may never reciprocate hurt done to me with hurt I do to another. I further state that deception is the most subtil aspect of existence of which I am yet aware, for deception deceives those who are deceived in such ways as to prevent their recognizing their being deceived, else those who are deceived would not be deceived.


  575. I have a lifelong friend with an eidetic memory. He skated through college and never graduated. Went directly into medical school at the end of his junior year. They did their best to keep him busy in medical school, but could not, so he went to law school in his off hours and in the evenings. Two months after completeing his residency in psychiatry, he took and passed the bar exam.

    I told his wife that when he dies, instead of burying him, they should have him stuffed and mounted for display in the Smithsonian.

    …….she seemed to mumble something about being mounted was his favorite thing…… But I may have been hearing things.


  576. OS,
    You are fire…but be careful! :)


  577. Boys, boys … it’s late at night and enough of the pi has been passed around … time to put out the fire and hit the sleeping bags …. tomorrow’s hunt starts early …


  578. on 1, March 24, 2011 at 11:48 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Buddha Is Laughing, March 24, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    You are no more qualified to technically address the legal system with the authority of an expert than I am qualified to design a high rise office complex or a generator

    ################################################

    The law informs me otherwise, for I am considered cognizant of the law by the law itself.

    From Black’s Ninth,

    Ignorantia facti excusat, ignorantia juris non excusat. Ignorance of fact excuses; ignorance of law does not excuse. — Every person must be considered cognizant of the law; otherwise, there is not limit to the excuse of ignorance.

    Because I am a person and every person must be considered cognizant of the law, it is my considered understanding as a professional engineer that I am cognizant of the law and am therefore, as a professional engineer who is a person and therefore is, by law, cognizant of the law, I am, by law, qualified to study and critique the law as a fact of law.

    Whether you are or not qualified to design anything is something of which I have neither knowledge nor understanding, for I am without any valid information as to what, if any, qualifications you may have, because you post comments here under what i understand is a pseudonym, which I, being without deception, simply do not do.

    Were the law only applicable to lawyers and not to their clients and to those not their clients, I would have no need to be cognizant of the law; the law, however, defines me as cognizant, doing so by law and therefore as fact of law.

    Being cognizant of law by law and as fact of law, I proceed with my work of understanding the biophysical ramifications of law with respect to time-corrupted learning trauma and its personal and social consequences; and I do this in full accord with my being licensed as a Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer.

    Sooner or later, some competent professional will properly “blow the whistle” on a purported legal system having unconstitutional properties such that all law is procedurally ex-post-facto because it is only possible to know what the law was when a violation of the law is possible when, at trial, the judge decides, long after the fact, and therefore inextricably ex-post-facto, what the law was or was not when it was, prior to trial, violated or not violated.

    Sooner or later, some competent professional will properly “blow the whistle” on a purported legal system of such unfathomable complexity and with such disparity of contradictory decisions as to render every person effectively as though continuously in multiple jeopardy.

    If some competent professional will do this sooner or later, I, as a competent professional, decided to do it sooner and not later.

    Hence, I proceed with my work as a bioengineer who is been reverse-engineering the adversarial system of law and jurisprudence in order to find its intrinsic error of apparent pre-historic origin, doing so in the interest of public safety.


  579. Raff, I know some truly interesting people. I will have to tell you about our cannibal client sometime. Then whre was the guy who I asked how he killed the local pharmacist. Leaning over in a conspiritorial whisper, he replied, “Quickly.”

    Sometimes the criminals can be more interesting than the geniuses.


  580. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 12:14 am J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E., March 24, 2011 at 11:48 pm

    Editing blunder on my part. Sorry.

    Hence, I proceed with my work as a bioengineer who is been reverse-engineering the adversarial system of law and jurisprudence in order to find its intrinsic error of apparent pre-historic origin, doing so in the interest of public safety.

    WAS INTENDED TO BE:

    Hence, I proceed with my work as a bioengineer who is and has been reverse-engineering the adversarial system of law and jurisprudence in order to find its intrinsic error of apparent pre-historic origin, doing so in the interest of public safety.


  581. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 12:53 am Buddha Is Laughing

    raff,

    You could eat during your 1L exams?

    All I could do was read and work a Braun coffee maker into an early grave.

    R.I.P. Braun #2. You were a brave and steadfast companion. *sniff*sniff*HONK!*

    _____

    Brian,

    “I am aware of the dirty trick of the adversarial legal system, which is, any statement made and not rebutted or refuted is, by definition true, regardless of any or every fact.”

    That’s not a dirty trick of the adversarial system. That’s a primary tenet of logic; a rule of thought. A thing is what it is. A ≡ A. You cannot violate the law of identity without proving that something is not A via logic and/or empirical proof.

    The statement of fact, “legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process is the alternative process to personal self-help adversarial dispute resolution which results in the tyranny of the strong over the weak and often violence”, is self-evident as in the absence of moderated dispute resolution the stronger human party will oppress, ignore or kill the weaker human party to get what they want. If a caveman thought another caveman stole his antelope, he would simply try to kill the other caveman to get it back.

    This is inherent to human nature – a fundamental aspect of our psychology and biology in general as this is how animals resolve disputes – and the natural state of man absent the social compact and the resultant laws and dispute resolution mechanisms. Violence and oppression are the method in which barbarians solve disputes. Without social compact and the resultant rule of law, humans are naturally barbarians. This is a fact whether you like or not and whether you believe it or not. Without laws and dispute resolution, the strong with tyrannize the weak and do so without repercussion.

    You would know this if you knew jack monkey squat about the law and the history of law.

    But you don’t.

    Just like you’d know that what Black’s means by “ignorantia facti excusat, ignorantia juris non excusat” means that ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking the law but an ignorance of a fact can be an excuse for breaking the law. For example: You can murder someone by suffocation if you bury them alive. Murder is a crime. Burying a box in your backyard is not a crime. If you buried a box in your backyard and someone was in it? If you didn’t know they were in the box and had no reasonable reason to know they were in the box, that would be an ignorance of a fact and a valid excuse for breaking the law. If your defense to the action was that you didn’t know murder was a crime? That would not be an valid excuse/defense for breaking the law.

    What the maxim does not mean, however, is that simply because you exist you are a legal expert.

    You would know this if you knew jack monkey squat about the law and the history of law.

    But you don’t.

    Just like you’d know Jesus has no place in our secular legal system as a function of the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. So appealing to religion will not work yet again. However, if you want to be like Jesus and judge not lest ye be judged? How about you start by not judging a profession about which you know nothing? How about that? Because every time you denounce the judiciary, you are passing judgment on, wait for it . . . people. People who are doing a job (albeit imperfectly) of brining some measure of justice and equity to those people in this world who are wronged and damaged by evil or negligent men. A job that is necessary to preserve order and stability in large scale societies. A job that prevents tyranny and anarchy despite your groundless accusations to the contrary. A job you cannot and, by admission, will not do.

    You’ve also managed to add “hypocrite” to the list of annoying things about you by claiming to want to live by the edicts of Bible yet you clearly violate the edict of Matthew 7:1, which is one of the few direct teachings of Jesus and states “Judge not lest ye be judged”. Some may take this to mean that we should never judge others for anything but that’s simple, childish and contrary to human nature. We judge people all the time. We judge who is and who isn’t our friend. We judge whether that dress really does make her ass look bigger. We judge whether so and so is a good cook. What Jesus was really saying was that we should not judge others unfairly – like you have unfairly and without logic or evidence judged the entire judiciary. If you judge others while failing to see your own shortcomings, you are being hypocritical. Your short coming is that you know noting about the legal system except your own petty vendetta against it and the delusion that you are an expert on legal systems simply by merit of existing.

    Once again, you demonstrate that when it comes to law and legal systems, you do not know what you are talking about.

    So how about you showing some honor and leaving this place where you have added nothing of value, passed judgment unfairly upon others and about topics you don’t know enough about to pass judgment upon, and where you have been a constant annoyance with your long winded off topic and often nonsensical when not insulting postings?

    Leave voluntarily and retain some scrap of honor.

    Because I have a sneaking feeling that a bunch of us have about had our fill of humoring your months and months of tedious trolling distractions. Had our fill to the point we may to join together and petition for your being banned by the Professor as a perpetual nuisance if you don’t leave voluntarily. So please, leave now before we are forced to take a more drastic measure.

    Go someplace you have a willing audience. Like starting your own blog. Do so voluntarily.

    Is that clear enough for you?


  582. From Mother Jones (3/23/2011)
    Behind Michigan’s “Financial Martial Law”: Corporations and Right-Wing Billionaires
    http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/michigan-snyder-mackinac-center

    Excerpt:
    Last week, Michigan’s Republican Governor Rick Snyder signed into law a fiercely contested bill giving unelected “emergency financial managers” unprecedented power to shred union contracts, privatize city services, and consolidate or dissolve local governments, all in the name of saving struggling cities and school districts. Dubbed “financial martial law” by one approving state GOP lawmaker and “disaster capitalism” by critics, Snyder and his bill have become a target for Wisconsin-like protests. Several thousand demonstrators marched on the Michigan Capitol in the days before Snyder signed the bill. But gone unmentioned is a little-known Michigan think tank that for years has been pushing for the most controversial provisions in Snyder’s bill—and that’s bankrolled by some of the same right-wing millionaires and billionaires that backed Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker and his anti-union legislation.

    Since 2005, the Mackinac Center for Public Policy has urged reforms to Michigan law giving more power and protection to emergency financial managers, state-appointed officials who parachute into ailing cities or school districts and employ drastic measures to fix budgets on the brink of collapse. In January, the free-market-loving center published four recommendations, including granting emergency managers the power to override elected officials (such as a mayor or school board member) and toss out union contracts. All four ended up in Snyder’s legislation.

    “The Mackinac Center has been tied at the hip with the Republican Party establishment for years,” says Doug Pratt, public affairs director at the Michigan Education Association. “It goes to their funding sources; it goes to their ideology.”

    Mackinac is part of a network of state-based groups associated with the Heritage Foundation, the influential right-wing think tank in Washington. Its past and present board members include Robert Teeter, a GOP strategist and ’92 campaign manager for George H.W. Bush; Margaret Rieker, a former vice chairwoman of the Republican National Committee; and Joseph Lehman, a former vice president at the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington.

    The Mackinac Center does not disclose its donors. But a review of tax records shows that the group’s funders include the charitable foundations of the nation’s largest corporations and a host of wealthy conservative and libertarian benefactors. Between 2002 and 2009, the Mackinac Center’s donors included the Charles G. Koch Foundation ($69,151), founded by the chairman and CEO of Koch Industries, who, with his brother, David, is a major backer of conservative causes; the Dick and Betsy DeVos Foundation ($80,000), the charity tied to the son of the co-founder of Amway, the multibillion-dollar direct marketing company; the Edgar and Elsa Prince Foundation, established by the parents of Blackwater founder Erik Prince, who serves as the foundation’s vice president ($195,000); and the Walton Family Foundation ($100,000), established by Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton and his wife, Helen.


  583. @Maury:

    I’ll take these out of order a bit.

    If the company is as bad as you say, they should go look for another job. See how that works, in a good economy it would be possible but socialism doesn’t create good economies. Most are on the ropes and are going to need to be bailed out.

    It has nothing to do with the economy; this is another free market myth and lie. The first part of this is the free marketeers insistence on only addressing the worker and the job and nothing else. The second part is assuming there is someplace else to go. The third part is assuming some employer out there treats employees better, AND has a job opening — By your own free market logic, the employers that treat employees best should be full up with lifers; all the openings (if any) will be with assholes that try to rip off employees.

    Besides that, most real people over 25 or so have strings that attach them to their geography. I have an extended family of over two dozen people in my city; my wife has another dozen. I have business contacts, partners and charity contacts. My wife has been working at the same job for over 30 years, and will never leave. We have friends, homes, mechanics and repairmen and lawyers we trust. If I lost my job and had to work, I cannot just go find another job and take all that with me.

    For low wage workers, the problem can be more than just family; the problem can be the expense of moving, or even the expense of transportation. If somebody takes the bus to work, or walks, the number of workplaces they can attend is limited.

    Finally, the natural outcome of the free market is monopolies and duopolies (two major companies), locally, nationally, and globally. Some towns are founded on a company or industry tied to the geography: Oil, coal, plentiful water or arable land or useful climate, or the proximity of other businesses like rail, barges, ports or whatever. A dock working crane operator will not find an equivalent job in Oklahoma City, and there may not be another port he can work at within his travel distance.

    If the job they have is the only employer in town, they need a way to address injustices without resorting to violence.

    a union guy on strike should not be entitled to food stamps, if they are striking for their own benefit then let them pay for it.

    The problem with this idea is that it endorses abuse by employers. This is blackmail, it says either accept being mis-treated or your family will starve.

    I would not benefit so why should I pay?

    Another myth, caused by focusing too tightly. Most people DO benefit if employers cannot get away with blackmailing their employees. If employers are allowed to abuse employees, their first choice of abuse is financial; ripping them off and cutting their pay. This makes their products cheaper, and their competition must respond in kind, abusing their employees too, in order to stay in business. In fact, the employer that abuses their employees the worst is the profit winner, and the people benefitting from that profit are the rich. That is what you endorse.

    By letting the unions strike and demanding OSHA do its job, we help eliminate “employee abuse and endangerment” as a cost saving tactic across the board, including in your own job.

    Talking about fairness, it doesn’t seem very fair to me.

    Fair or not, it seems humane to me to feed people that are hungry, and prudent as well. As the saying goes, no country is more than three meals away from revolution: And that applies on the small scale as well as the national one. The hungrier a man gets, and his family gets, the more desperate they get, and the less law abiding they are likely to be. Giving somebody a choice between getting totally fucked on the job or feeding their children will give at least some of them the idea of just taking what they need to survive, by violence if need be, from anybody that has it.

    What you promote is a lawless society, and only to benefit the rich.


  584. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 8:28 am Otteray Scribe

    The real “Death Panels” emerge and it is not from the Democrats. If the so-called “Obamacare” is repealed, there will be consequences–patients will die. These are not just statistics, they are real living human beings whose lives will be snuffed out if they cannot get needed surgery and medications. The willingness of the right wing to let people die for lack of medical care has already been seen in Arizona where a heartless governor and legislature has killed funding for medical care. Other republican governors, lawmakers and judges are stampeding over each other to repeal health care legislation. Death panels? A Frank Luntz talking point that only came true when the right wing had its way.

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/the-real-death-panel-if-obamacare-repealed-some-patients-cant-go-back.php?ref=fpa


  585. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 8:32 am Anonymously Yours

    Tocy C. et al….

    I have found the word that the maury’s of the world project…..it is of antisemitic nature in scope and duality…. it is not just aimed at Jews….it is directed at everyone not like them…. similar to a Utopian society but the opposite….

    A dystopia (from Ancient Greek: δυσ-, “bad, ill”, and Ancient Greek: τόπος, “place, landscape”; alternatively cacotopia,[1] or anti-utopia) is, in literature, an often futuristic society that has degraded into a repressive and controlled state, often under the guise of being utopian. Dystopian literature has underlying cautionary tones, warning society that if we continue to live how we do, this will be the consequence. A dystopia, thus, is regarded as a sort of negative utopia and is often characterized by an authoritarian or totalitarian form of government. Dystopias usually feature different kinds of repressive social control systems, a lack or total absence of individual freedoms and expressions and constant states of warfare or violence. Dystopias often explore the concept of humans abusing technology and how humans individually and collectively cope with technology that has evolved too quickly. A dystopian society is also often characterized by widespread poverty and brutal political controls such as a large military-like police.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia


  586. Tony C:

    standard leftist answers, all of them.

    When the economy was going well, the McDonalds in our local area was paying around $8-10/hour to attract workers.

    A good economy prevents abuse. Savings prevent abuse.

    But our economy is not set up that way, no one saves anymore mostly because of taxes. And the economy is always on the ropes because of the national debt and the abuses by the Federal Reserve.

    If you cant find work, then you need to move, why should others subsidize your stubbornness or lifestyle?


  587. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 8:37 am Anonymously Yours

    Screw em’ Maury,

    And pray tell who can live on 8/10 and hour at a maximum of 30 hrs per week…..or if you want more…you work split shits….you are a fool in your beliefs…a true fool…a fool knows not its folly’s…


  588. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 8:39 am Anonymously Yours

    Hey Screw em maury,

    Exactly what is a leftist? I am not sure I know what you mean….really…define a leftist…..


  589. Annoy Yours:

    Dystopian societies are typically socialist. The books on dystopian societies I have read are all collectivist in nature.


  590. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 8:45 am Otteray Scribe

    Elaine, congratulations. This is comment #601. Good job on stimulating discussion with your excellent posting.


  591. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 8:45 am Anonymously Yours

    Well Screw em’ maury,

    Is that not what you are advocating? a socialist society in reality….but the company is the leader….isn’t it really?


  592. Dr. Scribe:

    that is why we need a free market in organs. Then we will have more than enough to take care of people who need them.

    You probably think that is a horrible idea, but if you own your own life you should be able to sell your organs.

    This would increase the supply and help a good number of people on both sides of the transaction.

    Yep, that is what we need; a free market in vital organs.

    That would do more good for humanity than Obamacare ever could or will do.

    And you think I don’t care for humanity?


  593. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 8:49 am Otteray Scribe

    OK, I will sign up for your heart. Ummmmm…..never mind, I do not deal in defective organs. Heart has to both exist and be of normal size. I doubt you qualify.


  594. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 8:53 am Anonymously Yours

    OS,

    You are missing the point here….we should…we could make all sorts of money….both on the spotting part and the selling….and if he didn’t pay for it in full….then charge interest….and well…repossess it….

    Repo Men

    Set in the near future when artificial organs can be bought on credit, it revolves around a man who struggles to make the payments on a heart he has purchased. He must therefore go on the run before said ticker is repossessed.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1053424/

    It has a typical segal ending…


  595. Anoy Yours:

    No, I am not advocating for the company to be in control. Isn’t that sort of like Fascism?

    I want the individual to be in control, to be free. I want our Constitutional Republic back with limits on governmental power and abuse. I want a free market where individuals engage in mutually beneficial transactions without government telling them what they can and cannot do. I want to be able to keep most of the money I earn, God only wanted 10% that should be enough for government.

    In other words, I want to be left alone to live my life as I see fit and I want to live it for myself and my family, not for my “brother”. People should own their lives, your life does not belong to the state, to a god, to a collective. It belongs to you and that is our birthright as citizens of the United States. Jefferson and Madison and others gave us that right through their brilliant work. They freed humanity from thousands of years of slavery-“Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”. That pretty much sums it up.

    And progressives want to take it back.


  596. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:00 am Otteray Scribe

    AY, I think Maury missed the section of the law that specifically forbids selling organs. THERE IS NO PROFIT OF ANY KIND ALLOWED! You either do it for free or you cannot do it. There is no third choice.

    You also cannot buy and sell humans, but the industrial oligarchs and crime families are working hard toward that end. Jack Abramoff just got caught before they could repeal the 14th amendment and make it legal again.


  597. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:01 am Buddha Is Laughing

    In literature, the economics of dystopian worlds varies widely. Sometimes it’s not even mentioned at all. The key unifying features of dystopian literature are usually primarily political. They include brutally repressive social control systems (usually totalitarian regimes emphasized by brutal militaristic police – which is reflection of top down rule, the exact opposite of collectivist rule which is bottom up as seen in a true democracy), a lack or total absence of freedom of expression and individuality, a perpetual state of warfare and violence, and usually crushing poverty. These characteristics of dystopian literature can all be traced to oligarchical or dictatorial political systems. And the kind of free market uber alles fascism that your lot endorses clearly leads oligarchical political structures – where the wealthy few get everything and screw the rest of society.

    So once again, Maury, your full of crap.


  598. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:02 am Buddha Is Laughing

    More accurately . . .

    Full of crap.

    Not very well read.

    Or both.


  599. Maury as usual thinks small as he grasps for ways to avoid having to pay his fair share of taxes and betrays his absolute lack of the ability to emphacize with those less fortunate than him. Now we should have a free market in organs. I could see people finding work as healthy organ donors for the rich. They could be paid, a low pay scale of course, to keep themselves available to donate to those wealthy in need. Actually, this could be a new business model, akin to the modeling agency concept. Now as to the national government i’m sure the solutions below would please Maury in his chasing the chimera of a free market.

    http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/how-to-pay-down-the-federal-deficit-sell-americas-icons-asset/19882453/


  600. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:04 am Buddha Is Laughing

    And “you’re”.

    First cup of coffee not complete yet.


  601. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:15 am Otteray Scribe

    BIL: “…emphacize…”

    Sounds painful. Have you seen a doctor about it? Maybe they make an ointment for it? ;-)


  602. Since collectivism is always charecterised by top down rule you are the one who is full of crap and not very well read.

    Marx himself said the proletariat wasnt smart enough to govern itself and needed to be ruled. The Soviets sure put that model into good use.

    I would say if someone wants to be paid to be healthy to donate a kidney or a lung to someone and they are of sound mind then they should be able to do it.

    Only a lefty would want to prevent free trade. Friggen totalitarians. Always worrying about the “little” guy and screwing him every chance you get. Wet dream wannabe commisars, everyone of you.

    blah, blah, blah, collectivist, progressive trolls.


  603. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:16 am Otteray Scribe

    OOPS!

    Uh, meant Mike, not BIL. Still working on that first cup of coffee mself.


  604. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:20 am Buddha Is Laughing

    Awww.

    Isn’t that cute! Having his teeth kicked in by the facts once again, Maury resorts to simple name calling. Including using words he clearly doesn’t know the meaning of in his futile attempt to rationalize his common ordinary greed and selfishness.


  605. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:21 am Otteray Scribe

    Maury, would it help if we all pitched in a bought you a dictionary, and maybe a thesaurus to go with it? You have made it abundantly clear you have a problem with word definitions and do not know what some of the terms you throw out mean.

    Or, you could look here:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/

    http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/


  606. Mike Spindell:

    That is not a bad idea, but if they just opened up some of the land to development and started freeing the market we wouldnt have to do any of that.

    Although the US government ought to sell some military bases, get out of power generation and privatize more roads.


  607. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:26 am Otteray Scribe

    Just a reminded. The Triangle Shirtwaist Fire was one hundred years ago. If Maury and his ilk had their way, I suspect this is what their vision of modern society and the workplace would look like.

    When word got out two weeks ago that Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker had ordered the windows of the state Capitol building bolted shut during the ongoing protests against his attacks on public employees, it was a chilling reminder of a similar action by the employers of the Triangle Shirtwaist factory.

    Nearly 100 years ago to the day of Walker’s order–which he rescinded after public outrage–146 workers, mostly young immigrant girls, jumped to their deaths from the 10-story building, unable to escape a fire because factory foremen had locked all the doors. The owners, Isaac Harris and Max Blanck, worried the workers would steal from the company.

    Story below at the link:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/25/959747/-The-Triangle-Fire:-Still-Burning-Before-Our-Nation


  608. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:29 am Buddha Is Laughing

    By the way, Maury, only an idiot would think that “free trade” means “a total absence of regulation”.

    Or to quote President William McKinley, “Under free trade the trader is the master and the producer the slave. Protection is but the law of nature, the law of self-preservation, of self-development, of securing the highest and best destiny of the race of man. [It is said] that protection is immoral…. Why, if protection builds up and elevates 63,000,000 [the U.S. population] of people, the influence of those 63,000,000 of people elevates the rest of the world. We cannot take a step in the pathway of progress without benefitting mankind everywhere. Well, they say, ‘Buy where you can buy the cheapest’…. Of course, that applies to labor as to everything else. Let me give you a maxim that is a thousand times better than that, and it is the protection maxim: ‘Buy where you can pay the easiest.’ And that spot of earth is where labor wins its highest rewards.”

    And McKinley was no idiot. Whereas, you, Maury, are demonstrably not very bright to say the least.


  609. please let me know which words I have a problem with? Seems to me you yocals have the problem with definitions.

    What is that you guys do, um, oh yes, I think they call it dissembling. You are very good at it too. Although there is the possibility that you actually believe the crap you wright. Maybe you are just puppets on a string being pulled by Marx, Prudhome, Fourier, et. al.

    Hmmmmmmm?


  610. @Muary: standard leftist answers, all of them.

    Ha! How, precisely, does that make it a wrong answer, or an untrue answer?

    If I tell a doctor I am interested in the taste of cyanide and would like his opinion on its safety, and he tells me, “That will kill you,” I don’t say, “pshaw, standard medical professional answer!”

    You make no argument by calling me a leftist, so I assume I have won. You can’t answer so you resort to name-calling, that you think is an insult and I would regard as a compliment — If it were true.

    But my answers are not trite quotations like yours are from the right; my answers are reasoned, logical, and comport with the truth of human nature. Your free market arguments require supernatural means to effect, and when they have been implemented they fail, or they end up outlawed due to their inhumane and destructive nature, to which over 90% of us are opposed.

    Free markets don’t function; even theoretically they don’t function. The idea of competition is a good one, but the idea of free-for-all, anything goes competition is a very bad one, because it is far easier for the strong to oppress the weak than it is for them to compete fairly on product.

    That is just a fact; some people can be intimidated into taking lethal risks, especially when the strong have systematically removed all their other options, and their choice is losing everything they have or taking the risk.

    Your system, as has been proven in country after country including ours, leads to serfdom with a tiny elite set of self-protecting tyrants in complete control of the entire lives of workers.


  611. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:36 am Otteray Scribe

    I will write slowly and pronounce the words distinctly as I type. For starters, Maury, you seem to be unable to distinguish between socialism, communism and fascism.

    And it is “yokel” not”yocal.”

    Yokel is defined as, “A naive or gullible inhabitant of a rural area or small town.”

    I did a Google search and could not find a definition for “yocal.”

    I do confess and admit that I enjoy living in a rural area in a medium small town, but I am trying to wrap my head around the ‘naive and gullible part.’ Coming from you, it is rather like being called ugly by a baboon.


  612. Buddha is Laughing:

    you really are a dumb ass, that McKinley quote is funny in light of the fact that John D. Rockefeller was able to develop and sell kerosene for pennies a gallon. He did it in an unprotected market.

    Do you know what exacerbated the great depression of the 1930’s? Trade restrictions or protection in other words.

    Do you actually believe the shit you write? Or do you just throw shit out there and hope you make it sound believable enough for stupid people to accept?


  613. Tony C:

    They function pretty well, look around the globe. The countries which have the freest markets are the ones with the best economies. I think we can extrapolate from there.

    Anyway the US has never really had a true free market, but the time period it was the freest saw incredible growth in both the standard of living and technology.


  614. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:46 am Buddha Is Laughing

    collectivism \kə-ˈlek-ti-ˌvi-zəm\

    1: a political or economic theory advocating collective control especially over production and distribution; also : a system marked by such control

    2: emphasis on collective rather than individual action or identity

    Compare with . . .

    democracy \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\

    1a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

    2: a political unit that has a democratic government

    3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States

    4: the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority

    5: the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

    You hate collectivism. This is clearly evidenced by your persistent attempts to use the word as a pejorative.

    Democracy by definition is a collectivist form of governance as it has supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections and an absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges.

    “We the People” is an inherently collectivist concept, Maury, as “We” is the first person plural pronoun of “I” and means “: I and the rest of a group that includes me : you and I : you and I and another or others : I and another or others not including you”. In other words, “We the People” is a collective by definition.

    If you hate collectivism, you hate democracy, and by extension the Constitution and America, the country that holds the Constitution as the foundation of its legal system.

    So my question to you is why do you hate America, Maury?


  615. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:49 am Otteray Scribe

    Maury sez: “Do you know what exacerbated the great depression of the 1930′s? Trade restrictions or protection in other words.”

    *******************************

    Really? Ya gotta be kidding me. And all this time historians and economists have been proving that it was due to rampant and unregulated speculation on the part of investors. The top few percent of those on the economic ladder became obscenely rich while the bottom 75% of the population descended into abject poverty.

    Here is a link to a PowerPoint presentation from the economics department at Villanova University that explains it at an undergraduate level of understanding. Note especially beginning at slide 15 how things began to unravel.

    http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=causes+of+great+depression+powerpoint&aq=2&aqi=g5&aql=f&oq=causes+of+great+depression&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1fd3bc16a86a49f1


  616. Dr. Scribe:

    I think you better learn how to use google or quit telling tales. A guy with a purported PhD (Dr. Harris actually has one which is verifiable, you can read his dissertation on line) should have been able to find the link since it was the first one that popped up when I just did it.

    I post it here for your convenience. The example usage is apt as well, none of you have any teeth.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yocal


  617. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 9:54 am Buddha Is Laughing

    Call me a dumbass again, Maury.

    It makes me giggle.

    Because trade restrictions were not the cause of the 1929 market crash. It was caused by an unregulated stock market over selling and over valuing margin selling that resulted in a bubble of artificially inflated stock values. As these values were artificially high, when the market corrected, it resulted in a crash.

    So, in summary, you’ve displayed 1) poor language skills and 2) a second graders understanding of economics.

    Is there anything you are competent at, Maury? Other than regurgitating self-serving selfishness and the venal religion of greed is good?

    Don’t bother to respond to that question.

    That, unlike “Why do you hate America?”, was a rhetorical question, Maury.


  618. Dr. Scribe:

    It contributed to the severity.

    Your shrill ramblings are unbecoming.


  619. Buddha is Laughing:

    now that was a real funny post, if you actually believe what you just wrote you do not understand our Constitution. Your dribble tells me all I need to know about where you are coming from Lil’ Caesar or Seizure in your case.


  620. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:06 am Buddha Is Laughing

    And your base stupidity in insisting black is white is most unbecoming, Maury.

    It was a lack of regulation that contributed to the severity of the crash. The study of the root causes of the crash carried out by the Senate’s Pecora Commission determined that lax banking rules fostered the improper and over valued speculation and this resulted in the implementation of the Glass-Steagall Act – regulations that fostered prosperity and kept banks under control for over 50 years, including our unprecedented post-WWII prosperity – until that fascist graft corrupted clown Clinton drove its repeal. Thus inviting another series of market bubbles based on improper speculation just like we are currently experiencing.

    Yeah. Regulation contributed to the 1929 Market Crash alright. But it was not enough regulation that was the culprit (then as it is now), not too much regulation.

    So . . . BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong answer once again, Maury.


  621. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:09 am Buddha Is Laughing

    Maury,

    I’ll bet my J.D. against your manifest incompetence that I know a helluva lot more about the Constitution than you do.

    Now answer the question:

    Why do you hate America, Maury?


  622. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:09 am Stamford Liberal

    Maury, et al,

    “But our economy is not set up that way, no one saves anymore mostly because of taxes. And the economy is always on the ropes because of the national debt and the abuses by the Federal Reserve.”

    Liar, liar, pants on fire.

    People’s inability to save has nothing to do with taxes, but has everything to do with the average American workers salaries being stagnant for the last few decades, while income for top 2% has increased:

    “It’s well known that the typical American household has essentially been running in place or falling behind financially for some time. Sapped by greater outlays for everything from energy and health care to transportation and education, workers’ wages have failed to keep up with the cost of living.

    What is news, however, is that stagnant wages have been a problem for far longer than anyone heretofore supposed, according to a new report released last week by the Economic Policy Institute, a nonprofit think tank focused on the poor and middle class.”
    http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/careers/people-work-the-sorry-state-of-americas-wage-earners/19884045/

    Real incomes are stagnating and even falling.

    Between 2001 and 2007, the real income of the median working-age household decreased by 1.9%, a loss of $1,107, despite productivity increasing by 18.5% over that time.1 The real median income for all households rose by a meager 1.6%.2

    Wages for workers with a college degree increased by just 0.4% between 2001 and 2007.3

    Between 2001 and 2007, the average income of the lowest quintile is down 2.7%, while the middle quintile is up a mere 0.1%.4
    Income inequality is increasing.

    Between 1979 and 2006, the average income of the richest 0.1% of Americans rose a staggering 364%, or nearly 25 times more than the growth of the median household income.5

    More recently, between 2001 and 2006 the average income of the top 1% increased by 33%,6 or 165 times more than the growth of the median household income.

    The top 10% of households received 46% of the nation’s income in 2006, equal to the highest share since 1932. The top 1% received 20% of the nation’s income in 2006, the highest amount since 1928.7

    http://www.epipolicycenter.org/blm-stagnant_wages_and_rising_inequality.pdf

    How sad that you take pride in being a dumbass.


  623. @Maury: Actually if you look around the globe, the countries where the people are happiest, and usually more free than we are in the USA, are Constitutional Monarchies with a heavily taxed market. I do not want a Monarchy, but those are the facts on the ground today.

    If the point of having a free market is to maximize human misery and exploitation and oppression, then yes, it can succeed at that. If the point is to maximize human happiness, then you are dead wrong, literally, because that is what unregulated markets do: Kill people for profit, and primarily men.


  624. “The Smoot–Hawley Tariff
    In mid-1930, another chicken born in 1929 came home to roost. One of Hoover’s first acts upon becoming President was to hold a special session on tariffs, beginning in the spring of 1929. Whereas we have seen that a policy of high tariffs cum foreign loans was bound to hurt the farmers’ export markets when the loans tapered off, Hoover’s answer was to raise tariffs still further, on agricultural and on manufactured products. A generation later, Hoover was still to maintain that a high tariff helps the farmer by building up his domestic market and lessening his “dependence” on export markets, which means, in fact, that it hurts him grievously by destroying his export markets.[4] Congress continued to work on a higher tariff, and finally reported a bill in mid-1930, which Hoover signed approvingly. In short, it was at a precarious time of depression that the Hoover administration chose to hobble international trade, injure the American consumer, and cripple the American farmers’ export markets by raising tariffs higher than their already high levels. Hoover was urged to veto the Smoot–Hawley Tariff by almost all the nation’s economists, in a remarkable display of consensus, by the leading bankers, and by many other leaders. The main proponents were the Progressive bloc, the three leading farm organizations, and the American Federation of Labor.

    No one had advocated higher tariffs during the 1928 campaign, and Hoover originated the drive for a higher tariff in an effort to help the farmers by raising duties on agricultural products. When the bill came to the House, however, it added tariffs on many other products. The increased duties on agriculture were not very important, since farm products were generally export commodities, and little was imported. Duties were raised on sugar to “do something for” the Western beet-sugar farmer; on wheat to subsidize the marginal Northwestern wheat farmers at the expense of their Canadian neighbors; on flaxseed to protect the Northwest farmers against Argentina; on cotton to protect the marginal Imperial Valley farmer against Egypt; on cattle and dairy products to injure the Canadian border trade; on hides, leather, and shoes; on wool, wool rags, and woolen textiles; on agricultural chemicals; on meat to hamper imports from Argentina; on cotton textiles to relieve this “depressed industry”; on velvets and other silks; on decorated china, surgical instruments, and other glass instruments; on pocket knives and watch movements.[5] The tariff rates were now the highest in American history.

    The stock market broke sharply on the day that Hoover agreed to sign the Smoot–Hawley Bill. This bill gave the signal for protectionism to proliferate all over the world. Markets, and the international division of labor, were hampered, and American consumers were further burdened, and farm as well as other export industries were hindered by the ensuing decline of international trade.”

    From “Americas Great Depression” by Murray N. Rothbard


  625. Murray N. Rothbard is a free market economist and favorite of those who would take us back to the 1920s markets and banking models. Personally, I think he makes snake oil salesmen look respectable.


  626. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:27 am Woosty's still a Cat

    That is just a fact; some people can be intimidated into taking lethal risks, especially when the strong have systematically removed all their other options, and their choice is losing everything they have or taking the risk. Tony C.
    ———————————————–
    Yup, it’s a Tango….

    not my personal favorite…


  627. Maury says: If you cant find work, then you need to move, why should others subsidize your stubbornness or lifestyle?

    Maury says: They [free markets] function pretty well, look around the globe. The countries which have the freest markets are the ones with the best economies. I think we can extrapolate from there.

    Alright, I will. Your view is by far the minority view in the USA, about 95% of us believe in some workplace regulation. So if you don’t like the level of taxation in this country and the level of government control, you should move. By your claim, there are plenty of other countries where you can be happy and productive and live your dream. Why should we be forced to put up with your discontent and resentment and attempts to rob us of what we think is your due? Leave all you have behind, and run off to one of these worker shitholes you admire.

    India is a good place for you; I think. You can get used to the accent, and earn a dollar a day cleaning toilets to start. Or, try to rip off tourists, that’s a popular occupation; along with the ever popular unwashed beggar vibe. Go ahead, Maury. You’ve got a whole new, albeit short and brutal, life ahead of you.


  628. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:34 am Buddha Is Laughing

    What OS said.

    And apparently Maury wishes to neglect the fact that protectionism is the standard mode of operation in nations around the world – from the French with their wine and cheese producers to the Chinese and their high tariffs on anything not made in China. Free trade between nations only works when all nations involved are trading from an equal footing. Most every nation takes steps to protect their domestic manufactures and laborers. Only foolish ones do not. And even then “free trade” does not mean “unregulated trade”. Unregulated trade is how opium wars start.


  629. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:35 am Woosty's still a Cat

    Psychophysical Haiku

    Where are my thresholds?
    I left them in the sound-booth.
    No-one hears you scream. (Vit)

    Silence is golden
    Gaussian noise is for free
    Which do you prefer? (Vit)

    Indecisiveness
    Two-interval forced-choice task
    Monotony grows (Judi)

    Why psychophysics?
    Exploring the interface.
    Living on the edge (Judi).

    Models of being
    It is what we humans do
    Reality bytes. (Judi)

    What? Did you not know?
    Models of being are wrong
    So it has been said. (Vit)

    You’re damned if you do
    (Go on, make the decision)
    You’re damned if you don’t. (Vit)

    http://www.psychophysics.org/vithumour.htm

    Remember the choice
    to study life or to dare-
    fully live life well (Woosty)


  630. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:36 am Buddha Is Laughing

    Oh, and the fact that Maury conveniently neglects that tariffs didn’t cause the 1929 crash and stock speculation did.


  631. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:40 am Stamford Liberal

    Tony C,

    “So if you don’t like the level of taxation in this country and the level of government control, you should move.”

    LMAO!! Ironically, most of the top 10 happiest countries in the world are evil, socialist empires … the U.S. doesn’tmake it into the top 10 …

    Table: The World’s Happiest Countries
    Francesca Levy, 07.14.10, 05:00 PM EDT
    By and large, rich countries are happier–and that’s no coincidence.

    Quantifying happiness isn’t an easy task. Researchers at the Gallup World Poll went about it by surveying thousands of respondents in 155 countries, between 2005 and 2009, in order to measure two types of well-being.

    First they asked subjects to reflect on their overall satisfaction with their lives, and ranked their answers using a “life evaluation” score from 1 to 10. Then they asked questions about how each subject had felt the previous day. Those answers allowed researchers to score their “daily experiences”–things like whether they felt well-rested, respected, free of pain and intellectually engaged. Subjects that reported high scores were considered “thriving.” The percentage of thriving individuals in each country determined our rankings.

    Rank
    (by % Thriving) Country Region Percent

    Thriving Percent
    Struggling Percent
    Suffering Daily
    Experience
    1 Denmark Europe 82 17 1 7.9
    2 Finland Europe 75 23 2 7.8
    3 Norway Europe 69 31 0 7.9
    4 Sweden Europe 68 30 2 7.9
    4 Netherlands Europe 68 32 1 7.7
    6 Costa Rica Americas 63 35 2 8.1
    6 New Zealand Asia 63 35 2 7.6
    8 Canada Americas 62 36 2 7.6
    8 Israel Asia 62 35 3 6.4
    8 Australia Asia 62 35 3 7.5
    8 Switzerland Europe 62 36 2 7.6
    12 Panama Americas 58 39 3 8.4

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/14/world-happiest-countries-lifestyle-realestate-gallup-table.html

    Maury the dumbass just makes this entirely too easy!
    12 Brazil Americas 58 40 2 7.5
    14 United States Americas 57 40 3 7.3


  632. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:45 am Buddha Is Laughing

    So, Maury . . .

    Why do you hate America?


  633. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:46 am Woosty's still a Cat

    Why do you hate America, Maury?
    —————————–
    perhaps he is not American?

    Historical facts are pertinent to the times in which they occurred, when they are history, they become tools of teaching and should not be used as instruments of treachery. It is a neurosis to keep re-creating by the same methods when all circumstance has changed. That is why we have ideals and instruments like the Constitution, and regulations to preserve the healthy dynamic, to preserve our lives from simply becoming a shadow of the past…and enslaved by those with lesser ideals and lesser ability to regulate their base demands…


  634. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 10:47 am Buddha Is Laughing

    Interesting, W=c.

    A strong possibility.


  635. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 11:03 am Woosty's still a Cat

    so in deciding how to move forward I hope this country looks at the CURRENT facts, at HOW WE GOT HERE, and why way greater than 50% of the governed body are either dealing with victimizations by banks, builders and other bullies,corporate or otherwise…and/or are voicing protests (despite the lack of adequate media support)….and why our government is feeling the need to wage wars on (so many)foreign soils. Its all beyond my complete understanding but by G*d I hope that someone out there has transcended their selfish greedy gut.


  636. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 11:20 am Woosty's still a Cat

    I think Maury and Tootie are not people….I think they are manifest corporate tools. Some of the first programmable blogbots coursing through the blogosphere dropping corporate memebombs…:)


  637. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 11:22 am Anonymously Yours

    Well Screw em Maury,

    Its kind of like this….Business’ do not operate for fun mostly….take even the amusement parks..They operate for a profit…They are supposed to be fun…Not all parks treat the employees with a great deal of respect and even dignity….hell…maury…even some of the patrons going don’t do that either….. Maury did you know that those parks that don’t operate on a profit basis go bankrupt? Really….and everything is handed to them to get them to come to the city…really….

    So maury….did you use to work at an amusement park and get treated shabbily by management and the patrons….I’d be angry too….and well…I’d find someone to talk to to help me get through this…Maury…You do have someone to talk with don’t you…


  638. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 11:25 am Woosty's still a Cat

    What’s your meme????
    is it one with a corporate theme????
    To be sung to the tune of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrZf3vRHmkw

    What’s your meme????
    is it one with a corporate theme????


  639. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 11:27 am Woosty's still a Cat

    I HATE when the embed screws up…


  640. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 11:29 am Buddha Is Laughing

    Facts got your tongue, Maury?

    Why do you hate America?


  641. BIL:

    “Facts got your tongue…”

    ************

    I am providing notice here and now that I will use that phrase often.


  642. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 11:48 am J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Buddha Is Laughing, March 25, 2011 at 12:53 am

    Buddha Is Laughing, I find the following two-paragraph claim, made in your posted comment of the above date and time is a claim that is of falsehood, though I allow that you sincerely believe it to be not false in error:

    The statement of fact, “legal dispute resolution via adversarial due process is the alternative process to personal self-help adversarial dispute resolution which results in the tyranny of the strong over the weak and often violence”, is self-evident as in the absence of moderated dispute resolution the stronger human party will oppress, ignore or kill the weaker human party to get what they want. If a caveman thought another caveman stole his antelope, he would simply try to kill the other caveman to get it back.

    This is inherent to human nature – a fundamental aspect of our psychology and biology in general as this is how animals resolve disputes – and the natural state of man absent the social compact and the resultant laws and dispute resolution mechanisms. Violence and oppression are the method in which barbarians solve disputes. Without social compact and the resultant rule of law, humans are naturally barbarians. This is a fact whether you like or not and whether you believe it or not. Without laws and dispute resolution, the strong with tyrannize the weak and do so without repercussion.

    #################################

    What evidence do I have that your claim, however sincere, is actually a false claim? The evidence is so simple you apparently cannot recognize it within what I have been posting in my comments.

    I am human. What you claim to be inherent in human nature is not inherent in my human nature: therefore, what you claim is inherent in human nature cannot be inherent in human nature if there is at least one human without that which you claim is inherent human nature.

    The mere fact of my life is actually an effective rebuttal of your (sincere, yet false?) claim.

    Buddha is Laughing, your (apparently?) sincere belief regarding human nature is a belief which I find to be of the form of a very widely held delusion generated through the trauma of internalizing the mechanism of deception, typically at around the age of 18 months. The process of internalization of the mechanism of deception has been named, “the infant-child transition,” or, when really intensely severe, “the infant-child discontinuity,” and often in the vernacular, “the terrible twos.” People who go through the infant-child discontinuity form of this socialization-trauma event tend to be unable to recall their life prior to the internalization of the trauma and tend to hold young children in contempt because of unconscious envy in my research and findings.

    In my experience to date, people who have accomplished the infant-child discontinuity with exceptional aplomb tend to find fault with me in more ways than I can yet count, and tend to fling hateful words at me with due diligence.

    Because I have long observed that it is people whose belief structures most closely resemble the ones you have been projecting onto me are the ones who most severely damage (abuse) children through the conventions of deception internalization, I have been allowing those who judge me to inform me about their beliefs by simply being as truthful as my word skills allow about my life, life work, and life circumstances.

    Stanford psychology professor emeritus, Philip Zimbardo was one of the consultants in the Abu Ghraib investigation. I recall his appearing on a television program in which he attempted to explain the situational aspects of the Abu Ghraib disaster.

    The person interviewing Zimbardo asked Zimbardo something like, “So, the problem at Abu Ghraib was a few bad apples?” Zimbardo answered, in effect, “No, it was situational.” The interviewer again said, as though he understood the “situation,” “So, it was few bad apples?” Zimbardo again responded with something like, “No, it was situational.”

    It came to me that the interviewer thought the situation was “a few bad apples.” What did Philip Zimbardo do about being so remarkably misunderstood? For one thing, he wrote a book of nearly 500 pages with many more pages of notes, “The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil,” Random House, 2007.

    Buddha Is Laughing, as I have encountered you via the Internet, your conduct with respect to my work is a remarkably close fit, as best I can yet discern, to the sort of person Zimbardo may regard as having been captured by The Lucifer Effect.

    You have the best of intentions, yet I find you utterly oblivious to the dastardly havoc your belief system accomplishes in very young children. Oblivious to such dastardly havoc, I am decidedly not.

    However, in stark contrast with my grasp of the view of Philip
    Zimbardo, I find that what you are doing with your life is not at all evil. Neither do I find any fault with you. You are not your beliefs because your beliefs are of situational factors which have never fully been within your actual operative locus of control, hence, while your beliefs are, in my research findings, atrociously abusive to little children, and the process of such belief internalization is near the limit of what I observe to be horrible child abuse, my research also informs me why such abuse has been a necessary aspect of the evolution of human society.

    Were I to guess (something fraught with its own hazards), I would guess that you cannot quite understand why I am not getting your message.

    If you do not quite understand why I am not getting your message, I can give a simple account of why I am not getting it. I got the message you have been sending my way by the third day of kindergarten, while I attended Columbia School, in Seattle, Washington. That was the day I decided to never commit suicide to avoid people much like you treating me much as you have been treating me. I have more than 65 years of relentless success in avoiding internalizing the message you have been sending my way. If I was strong enough during the first three days of kindergarten to avoid internalizing the “time-corrupted-learning-is-good-for-me” message my kindergarten classmates sent my way back in 1944, the news is that I am plausibly many orders of magnitude stronger in terms of self-integrity than I was then.

    And I continue to observe, millenia of Adversarial System events notwithstanding, that not one person has refuted or rebutted my observation that no mistake ever made either could or should have been avoided, and that observation is rather nicely the antithesis of the Adversarial System… Therefore, my legal theory question remains without having actually been addressed in any meaningful manner, for my legal theory question is itself of the form of a rebuttal of The Adversarial System.

    I inquired of your understanding of what the universe is made, and you provided an explanation I regard as typical of someone who has a high-school or perhaps one year of college physics background, though that is mere speculation on my part.

    I began studying electronics at college level during the first week after completing fourth grade. Electronics is really a branch of applied quantum mechanics, and my dad, a scientist who worked as a minister to support his scientific research and his family, had shared his considerable understanding of the meaning of quantum mechanics with me, my brother, and my mother during many mealtime dialogues. By the time I was nine, I was already “armed to the teeth” for working at making intelligible sense of the relationship of quantum mechanics to human society.

    Furthermore, I had the strength of conscience to avoid internalizing the message I find you sending me at the typical time a vast majority of people internalize it, to wit, when I was about 18 months of age. Someone (me, in particular) given the strength of conscience to reject deception and the mechanism of deception at only 18 months of age and who has relentlessly strengthened conscience ever since just may have become virtually invulnerable to deception and the mechanism of deception by the age of seventy one years since birth.

    It is because I find I am effectively invulnerable to deception, the mechanism of deception, and any pathway of internalizing deception that I set out, now that I may be able to find words at least a few people may be capable of grasping, that I set out to put the work of my life to an unbridled test.

    What is evil? To me, evil is any belief which asserts that something is what it isn’t and/or isn’t what it is.

    With respect to the Adversarial System of Law and Jurisprudence, a particular instance of evil is the commonplace notion that the state of understanding of a particular person acquired only after doing something was actually available to the person before doing it. Such error is the core fallacy of the legal fiction of “the reasonable person.”

    Your account, given in an earlier posted comment of yours, Buddha Is Laughing, of what the universe is made of is wonderfully simple and incomplete. You left out the Pauli Exclusion Principle. And you left out much more.

    The plausibly most useful, to scientific laypersons, explanation of the meaning of quantum mechanics that I have yet found is in the movie, “Mindwalk.”

    I find existence (including the universe) most usefully modeled as a set of probability patterns, and one way of modeling the set of probability patterns is to recognize three categories of such probability patterns as subsets of the totality of probability patterns. One subset is the set of all possibilities which have not been realized and which are not impossible to realize. Another subset is the set of all impossibilities, or possibilities which are impossible to realize. The third subset is the set of all possibilities which are in the process of being realized (this may be thought of as the eternal now of the evolution of creativity?). The fourth subset is the set of all possibilities already realized.

    If the Adversarial System of Law and Jurisprudence had not adversely affected people in my family and friends of mine many, many times, accomplishing dastardly damage time and time again, and if the Adversarial System of Law and Jurisprudence did not treat me, my family and my friends as though chattel property, I might not so vehemently protest the abuses I have long observed which I find inimical to the Adversarial System of Law and Jurisprudence.

    From time to time, I talk with some of the psychiatrists, psychologists, and other people who were involved in my experiences as a psychiatric inpatient and outpatient. Without exception, those folks are supportive of my research and research effort. People who really know and understand me invariably support what I am doing.

    So, demonstrate the actual existence of at least one mistake actually made and demonstrate the actual existence of the actually achievable process through which at least one mistake actually made could actually have been avoided or I will continue my work as a mandatory reporter of child abuse (being that I am a member of the ordained clergy in Wisconsin) because it is unlawful for me to do otherwise.


  643. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 11:53 am Anonymously Yours

    Brian,

    Please make your point or points and then move on….Life sucks sometimes….its what you do with the sucking part that makes the difference….Take a hint form what others have said…


  644. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 11:54 am Anonymously Yours

    Brian,

    Please….Take a hint from what others have said…


  645. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 12:07 pm Anonymously Yours

    New Color app promotes mobile voyeurism

    (CNN) — The makers of a new and much-anticipated smartphone app called Color are operating on this principle: “We’re all inherently voyeuristic,” said Peter Pham, president and co-founder of the Palo Alto, California start-up.
    Color, however, is a location-based, photo-sharing app that takes voyeurism to post-Twitter level by letting users see all of the photos that are being taken by strangers who happen to be within a 150-foot radius of the user’s smartphone.
    Photos taken through the app, which launches on Thursday morning, are public by default. They’re stored on Color’s servers and the company owns them, said Pham, who co-founded the 30-person company with Bill Nguyen, previously of Lala.com and a force to be reckoned with in the tech world.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/03/23/color.photo.app/index.html?iref=obnetwork

    Maybe a thread about who stole my privacy….


  646. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 12:17 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Anonymously Yours, March 25, 2011 at 11:53 am

    Brian,

    Please make your point or points and then move on….Life sucks sometimes….its what you do with the sucking part that makes the difference….Take a hint form what others have said…

    AND

    RE: Anonymously Yours, March 25, 2011 at 11:54 am

    Brian,

    Please….Take a hint from what others have said…

    ################################

    I have received your invitation to become unethical as I understand the ethics of my profession, I thank you for the invitation, and I respectfully decline to accept it.

    I do accept hints from folks who actually understand my work and why I work in the way I work, and that is why I continue my effort to bring to public awareness a legal theory question I deem of worthy significance.

    I have what might foolishly be thought of as an entourage of supporters, with whom I am in communication. I listen far more to people who know and understand me regarding how to conduct my professional work than I do to people who neither understand me nor my work. Ever wonder why that is so?

    What is a completely new paradigm?

    Could a completely new paradigm be one which incorporates previous paradigms only as being of error being overcome?

    It took me a while to figure out that my comments were beginning to function as counter-transferences which elicited transferences which reveal the inner personality structure of folks who, as a trauma response, attempt to control the lives of other people because of having been so seriously depersonalized as to have become nearly incapable of exercising effective executive self-control, and who thereby displace their inner conflicts on those around them…

    “Displacement” is plausibly a useful synonym for “addiction.” Those who are addicted may wisely study the books of Lance Dodes, M.D.

    What about people who are addicted to not understanding that they are addicted?

    Might anyone who posts comments here have unintentionally and unwittingly have become addicted to not understanding being addicted?

    I find that addiction is a no-fault condition resulting from environmental trauma which is of addictive structure and function.

    So, anyone will get me to stop by demonstrating a mistake made and demonstrating the achievable process whereby the mistake already made was not made before it was made after it was made.

    Go ahead… If you can… One mistake demonstrably made which demonstrably was actually avoidable before it was made such that it was not made when it was made. Only one such demonstration will be quite enough to “shut me up.”

    Merely citing the old paradigm which the new paradigm replaces will not refute the new paradigm, but will only, it seems, result in words spinning as though meaninglessly. Why is that not clear to those to whom it is evidently not yet clear?

    I am waiting…


  647. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 12:24 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E., March 25, 2011 at 12:17 pm

    I made a mistake.

    I left something out that I intended to include.

    Mistakes happen.

    I have no point or points to make and I decline to make any points and this comment is of no points, hence it is pointless.

    However, this comment has meaning and is not meaningless, for I experience meaning in terms of denotation (process or procedural brain function) and not in terms of points or connotation(s) or declarative brain function.

    For me to have any points to make, I would have to be able to think in words (or connnotation(s) or declaratives) and my life has never allowed me to internalize deception which I would have needed to have internalized so as to have become capable of thinking in words and thereby having points to be made.

    What is my problem with points? Points are procedurally dimensionless, they are empty of process, and, as I find life to be a process, I find points to be lifeless. I am alive, and not lifeless.


  648. @Buddha: “Facts got your tongue?

    Literally LOL.


  649. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 12:29 pm Anonymously Yours

    Brian,

    Then please move it to the form that people understand the nature and quality of your work and where it is more appreciated…..Here, and I think I speak for a few….DO NOT APPRECIATE YOUR HIJACKING THREAD AFTER THREAD WITH YOUR STUDY…..Is that understood? Do I need to say it sir in a more kindly manner…..

    Also, with a person with a few degrees in marketing, undergrad and grad…. emphasis on statistical analysis and human relationship to product placement….. Think again why you are doing what you are doing…No one doing a study would ever state to them the nature and quality of the study or what they were looking to achieve in the results….that is called skewing the numbers…..and a failed false positive….

    If you want to take it to an accounting concept in which I also have a degree…it is called cooking the books….plugging an audit….

    Your research is invalid and the results can be questioned because you let the beans spill….So as one has suggested take your crap…your study to another site where you are not known and restart your failed study there…..Please….

    I may not have respect for a number of folks….But I have learned to tolerate them….You on the other hand have exceeded any bounds of moral decency in interacting in your passive aggressive behavior….


  650. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 12:44 pm J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E.

    RE: Anonymously Yours, March 25, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    Brian,

    Then please move it to the form that people understand the nature and quality of your work and where it is more appreciated…..Here, and I think I speak for a few….DO NOT APPRECIATE YOUR HIJACKING THREAD AFTER THREAD WITH YOUR STUDY…..Is that understood? Do I need to say it sir in a more kindly manner…..

    Also, with a person with a few degrees in marketing, undergrad and grad…. emphasis on statistical analysis and human relationship to product placement….. Think again why you are doing what you are doing…No one doing a study would ever state to them the nature and quality of the study or what they were looking to achieve in the results….that is called skewing the numbers…..and a failed false positive….

    If you want to take it to an accounting concept in which I also have a degree…it is called cooking the books….plugging an audit….

    Your research is invalid and the results can be questioned because you let the beans spill….So as one has suggested take your crap…your study to another site where you are not known and restart your failed study there…..Please….

    I may not have respect for a number of folks….But I have learned to tolerate them….You on the other hand have exceeded any bounds of moral decency in interacting in your passive aggressive behavior….

    #####################################

    I happen to know, and have known in the past, attorneys, various scientists, and many supposedly non-professional people who brought to my attention their concerns, and I am responding with my research to concerns quite a few folks have brought directly to my attention.

    I studied the Jonathan Turley blawg for some time before beginning to post comments, and I watch Professor Turley many times via television before deciding to explore whether my posting comments here would have any chance of being acceptable to Professor Turley. I regard this blawg as being the rightful “property” of Professor Turley and the rightful property of no one else.

    Professor Turley need only ask me to stop commenting and I will cease posting comments, for I give him the unconditional right to exclude me from his blawg. Except as a few efforts of humor to protest “vitriol” sent my way, I simply avoid pejorative personal commenting. Situational factors, which I find to be a problematic conundrum for the legal profession, are not personal factors and I can criticize any and all situational factors without ever criticizing any actual person.

    Consider that one commentator may have attempted to ridicule my using dialogues involving Dr. Bessie Lendrum, Sidney M. Perlstadt, Esq, and myself which happened some 40 years ago.

    The conundrum brought to my attention by the now-late Sidney M. Perlstadt more than 40 years ago have not only not become reduced in effect as best I can tell, but have become increasingly stronger and increasingly more devastating to some people.

    I am not here to please or displease anyone and I am absolutely not here to make or “score” any points.

    I continue to have what I find to be a valid legal theory concern. If anyone were able to directly address my concern, by first having made the effort to understand it well enough to accurately paraphrase it, something useful might happen during an interchange of posted comments.

    So far, nothing like that has yet come to my attention unambiguously.


  651. “I continue to have what I find to be a valid legal theory concern. If anyone were able to directly address my concern, by first having made the effort to understand it well enough to accurately paraphrase it, something useful might happen during an interchange of posted comments.”

    That’s the problem; isn’t it?

    You don’t understand your own theory well enough to paraphrase it.


  652. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 1:12 pm Anonymously Yours

    Brian,

    I have represented a number of people in mental competency hearings… I took the time to google the Wisconsin Court information…..I suggest that you stay away from people that might know you……

    http://www.wicourts.gov/circuit/ccform.jsp?FormName=&FormNumber=&beg_date=&end_date=&StatuteCite=&Category=24


  653. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 1:14 pm Anonymously Yours

    Bob, Esq.

    LOL…maybe thats the ticket…. Maybe if Brian could formulate his question to his theory we could all be done with the nonsensical crap…..

    But I am just studying you….Sounds like Stalking to me….Do we need to obtain a petition for our safety…..lol…only kidding…


  654. Buddha is Laughing:

    no facts do not have my tongue.

    When you understand that our Constitution was not drawn up to protect society but the individual, then I will answer you. If you believe that it was set up to protect the collective, then you are not only stupid, you are a threat to liberty.

    If 51% vote to have you castrated is that freedom. You need to get your money back for your “JD”, they failed to educate you.


  655. Dr. Scribe:

    I suppose Keynes is your man? Now he really did sell snake oil, FDR bought it by the cubic yard and it took almost 15 years to get out of it.

    I laugh when you guys don’t answer the assertion and just say it is snake oil or I am full of shit, blah, blah, blah.

    I thought the left was so educated and erudite, you don’t even know what a yocal is so what could one expect.


  656. Buddha is Laughing:

    Learn to read Dr. Juris, I didnt say that protectionism caused the depression, I said it exacerbated it.

    Maury
    1, March 25, 2011 at 9:37 am
    Buddha is Laughing:

    you really are a dumb ass, that McKinley quote is funny in light of the fact that John D. Rockefeller was able to develop and sell kerosene for pennies a gallon. He did it in an unprotected market.

    Do you know what exacerbated the great depression of the 1930′s? Trade restrictions or protection in other words.

    Do you actually believe the shit you write? Or do you just throw shit out there and hope you make it sound believable enough for stupid people to accept?

    ex·ac·er·bat·edex·ac·er·bat·ing
    Definition of EXACERBATE
    transitive verb
    : to make more violent, bitter, or severe
    — ex·ac·er·ba·tion \-ˌza-sər-ˈbā-shən\ noun
    See exacerbate defined for English-language learners »
    Examples of EXACERBATE
    The proposed factory shutdown would only exacerbate our unemployment problems.
    His angry comments have exacerbated tensions in the negotiation process.
    The declining retirement security faced by growing numbers of Americans is being exacerbated by increasing longevity and quickly rising health care costs. —Jeff Madrick, New York Review of Books, 20 Mar. 2008
    … the sway that pack journalism holds on the Beltway press corps persists. The Crowd is never so influential as in the ever-lengthening season of presidential campaigns. The feverish obsessions of the blogosphere have only exacerbated the phenomenon: Now the herd just turns faster in pursuit of some ginned-up “controversy” or faux scandal. —Editor & Publisher, April 2007
    [+]more[-]hide
    Origin of EXACERBATE
    Latin exacerbatus, past participle of exacerbare, from ex- + acerbus harsh, bitter, from acer sharp — more at edge
    First Known Use: 1660

    not to be confused with masturbate, which is what all of you do in one big circle jerk of out right lies, dissembling and obfuscation.


  657. on 1, March 25, 2011 at 1:39 pm Stamford Liberal

    “Constitution was not drawn up to protect society but the individual,”

    And after all this time I thought society was made up of … individuals …

    So does the Constitution “defence” provision just protect one individual or a bunch who make up a society?

    Does the “general welfare” provision protect one individual or a bunch who make up a society?

    Do the various Bill of Rights and Amendments protect one individual or a bunch who make up a society?

    If the Constitution was drawn up to protect just an individual, how do we determine who that one individual is that will get to enjoy the protections of the Constitution?

    Beavis? Butthead??