Teaching Citizens to Heel: Park Ranger Reportedly Tasers Man Walking Small Dogs Off Leash

In California’s Rancho Corral de Tierra (part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area), a National Park Service Ranger reportedly shot Gary Hesterberg in the back with a taser after he walked away during a confrontation over walking his two lapdogs off leash. He was then arrested on suspicion of failing to obey a lawful order, having dogs off-leash and knowingly providing false information. The park service spokesperson reportedly said it is all part of teaching citizens about the new leash law in the area . . . or teaching Hesterberg to heel.

Witnesses objected that the force was excessive and said that the ranger refused to respond when confronted over the necessity or reason for the arrest.

The ranger says that Hesterberg gave a false name and then began to walk away from the ranger. Howard Levitt, a spokesman for the park service, added that he did not have identification on him. Levitt explained that the ranger “pursued him a little bit and she did deploy her [electric-shock weapon] . . . That did stop him.”

It is common for people to walk their dogs off leash in the area, but when the area was made part of the national park system in December, a new leash rule was imposed.

The article below says that Levitt explained that “the ranger was trying to educate residents of the rule.” Wow, if true, that is quite a lesson plan. Stop, explain, tase, and repeat.

The account of these witnesses not only raises serious questions of excessive force but also excessive charges that followed the alleged abuse. We have seen other cases of alleged abuse where citizens have been hit with an array of charges. This creates significant pressure for the accused to plead or remain silent. I do not see why a taser would be needed on such a minor offense.

Source: SF Gate

205 thoughts on “Teaching Citizens to Heel: Park Ranger Reportedly Tasers Man Walking Small Dogs Off Leash

  1. Anon :-(

    I agree-
    no time to explain! There are too many other law breakers out there that need to be “taught a lesson”

  2. A taser is a deadly weapon, and the use thereof is a deadly use of force. In this guys court case I would ask the cop on the stand if indeed a Taser is a deadly weapon.
    When he denies it I would have his mother brought into court and ask him to shoot his mother with his harmless little Taser right there in front of the jury.
    If you do this a deposition make sure it is a video deposition.
    As far you dogs out there, stay away from this so called Ranger.

  3. Well, since I work in security, let me show you the other side of the coin. The ranger didn’t tase him for violating a minor ordinance. She tased him for not stopping after she gave him a lawful order to stop. You know, when cops yell freeze, one really should stop. This ranger is a duly sworn LEO, and if she orders you to stop, you stop. Sorry, this guy deserves to be tased. This guy decided to blow off the officer (because she was a woman?) Witnesses say the force was excessive. Really? How would they know? Do they even understand what force is required and what force is excessive? Most people in their cozy suburbanite beighborhoods have never seen excessive force, or any force for that matter. They freak out when people raise their voices. Besides, in order to get your taser certs, one has to be tased as part of the training. This officer was tased herself. So please, stop the crocodile tears. This is not a case of police brutality. This is a case of a jerk who thought he could ignore a female LEO.

  4. Fire her butt. Park Ranger is a very desirable job, and there will be a thousand applicants for the position within an hour, none of whom will taser a man for walking a dog off leash.

  5. Bruce,

    A citizen was tazed in Utah for walking off from the officer after a traffic stop. Tazed in the back. Cost the state of Utah $40,000 in an out of court settlement.

    I work with law enforcement. That ranger would not want to have to stand in front of my desk and explain herself. She really wouldn’t–she would much rather have a root canal without anesthetic.

  6. Welcome to the future. A bunch of out-of-control ninnies with tasers enforcing bureaucratic rules under the color of law. People like this “officer” and the “he deserved it crowd” make me sick. I should feel sorry for them, though, because, like little babies, they have no idea what it means to live in a free Republic.

    In our country, ALL power is derived from the people. Those in power better start to get that through their thick skulls and develop a little bit more respect for their bosses.

    I hope this idiot ranger is fired or at least sanctioned and put behind a desk. She doesn’t deserve to work directly with the public. Shameful.

  7. If it is ok to shoot someone in the back with a taser because they are walking away then the cop who does that better watch her back. And if you are in law enforcement and think that tasers are ok because you got trained in them and got tased, then try it on your grandma or your pregnant wife. These are deadly use of force. It wont be long before the litigation for wrongful deaths and murders proves it to the TaserCult. If you are an insurance company do not issue a policy to a security agency which has these things. Your underwritter will be underwater. The Park Service does not need and the taxpayers cannot afford any “spokesperson”. I am going to call my Congressman Ron Paul on this one. Thank Dog I live in Texas where they have an appreciation for use of deadly force and can fathom the notion of cutting the Park Service budget here. Guy gets shot in the back for letting his dogs run loose. This country has gone to hell in a hand basket.

  8. The problem, George, is that the more they get away with it the more they do it. The more power the powers that be take, the power it will take to balance it all out.

    Every force has an equal and opposite reaction. It is as true in economics and society as it is in motion.

    The further we let our society get out of whack, the further the public will have to go to give the power back to the people.

  9. This is why we need armed drones across this nation. People are letting their dogs run and something needs to be done! In related events I introduce you to: “The Peacemaker”. The picture is very eye catching!!! “Police roll out video surveillance truck called The Peacemaker
    January 27, 2012|By Ihosvani Rodriguez, Sun Sentinel

    FORT LAUDERDALE — Tania Ouaknine is convinced the police are watching her.

    She’s not paranoid — it says as much on the red sign painted along the side on the hulking armored truck that’s been parked in front of her eight-room Parisian Motel for several days.

    “Warning: You are under video surveillance,” reads the bold message on the side of the truck.

    From the front bumper of the menacing vehicle, another sign taunts: “Whatcha gonna do when we come for you?”

    The truck is a new weapon for the Fort Lauderdale Police Department in the fight against drugs and neighborhood nuisances, and it looks like a Winnebago on steroids. They call it “The Peacemaker,” and it may be a first in South Florida.

    Mixing high tech with simplicity, the in-your-face strategy is straightforward: load an out-of-service armored truck with some of the latest surveillance equipment available and decorate it with police emblems. Then, simply leave it parked in front of trouble spots.”

    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-01-27/news/fl-neighborhood-crime-surveillance-20120126_1_armored-truck-police-roll-brinks

  10. When is it judicious to disobey a LEO?
    How many times can you double dog dare said LEO to arrest you?

    An escalating argument ensued, according to John Barlett, a nearby resident who was walking in the area. The dog-walker was “defiant,” Barlett said, daring the ranger as he began walking away, “Are you going to arrest me?”
    That’s when the ranger pulled out her Taser, according to Barlett.

    http://www.hmbreview.com/news/witnesses-dog-walker-tased-by-park-ranger-in-montara/article_02b264dc-4b86-11e1-b619-0019bb2963f4.html

  11. Tasers kill. Recently a case was brought before a Maryland court by a family whose son was killed by the misuse of this weapon. The subject was tasered once and was unconscious when the officer tasered him again. His death came quickly. Many human hearts will not stand up to this type of show. The case of the park ranger displays the indiscriminate use of these weapons. So far the courts have upheld their use. What do you think?? Band them or a necessary evil???

  12. Civility evaporating,

    Another excerpt from the article you provided a link to:

    Within a matter of hours, the Taser incident generated cries of foul play among the close-knit dog-walking community in Montara. GGNRA took control of the Rancho Corral property in December, and some dog advocates have accused the agency of trying to limit where they can take their canines off-leash.

    “There is total outrage about this. Everyone thinks this is a total excessive use of force,” said Bill Bechtell, who runs the Montara Dog Blog and email group. “I hope this guy hires an attorney because I think he’s got a strong case.”

    *****

    It sounds like an excessive use of force–to tase someone for having one of his dogs off his leash in a park where dogs are allowed off-leash in some areas.

  13. The arrogance of power. She just wasn’t going to take him not paying attention to her. She’s important you know!

    Police state creep. We’re not there just yet, but we’re getting very close; in little increments such as this.

  14. Some Ass does this to Me, I’m Dead.
    Scramble my Pacemaker that I rely on to keep tiCkin!
    Bruce Wilson F’ Off!

  15. I have a question. Would anyone reading (or viewing this) be willing to buy a used car from Captain Thomas Rousset of the Ozark, MO Police Department?

  16. Dr. Davis,

    Funny thing about the Ozark, MO incident. The officers who did the tazing were exonerated because “they thought” the kid was on LSD and were “justified.” No surprises there.

    However, following a public outcry, the Ozark PD installed $400 cameras on all Tasers. For some inexplicable reason, the number of threats to officers following installation of the cameras dropped to zero. No threats at all requiring the use of Tasers. Amazing.

  17. Lawyers need to litigate Taser deaths like they go after Mesothelioma or how ever they spell that.
    The schucks brandishing these things think its all fun at the amusement park. Better than shooting him with a gun they say.
    If they are not lethal weapons then I am taking one into the next City Counsel Meeting on my hip. Hey, no problem. Everybody ought to wear one until they brand them for what they are. They can not have it both ways. if they prosecute you for wearing one at the Police Parade then they are going to have to justify why it is worse than a kid cap gun. So, folks if they have killed someone with a Taser in your town and say it was not a lethal weapon then start packing. They cant have it both ways. Or can they?

  18. It sounds like an excessive use of force–to tase someone for having one of his dogs off his leash in a park where dogs are allowed off-leash in some areas.– Elaine

    Elaine you would never taunt a a LEO to arrest you, or challenge the leash in this fashion. You’re to bight and articulate.

    This fool begged to be arrested.

  19. If you have a pacemaker, would you ignore a LEO? Would you dare them to arrest you? Does having a pacemaker entitle you to ignore all police lawful orders? If you see flashing lights in your rearview mirror and refuse to pull over because you have a pacemaker? Please, this is pandering of the worse sort. If indeed you have a pacemaker, then its in your best interest to listen to a LEO when they tell you to stop walking away from them. I think they people complain most about cops beeing arrogant recognize thenselves.

    I tell people “no” for a living. Having a pacemaker will not excuse you from being told “no”.

  20. I tell people no all the time, too. I don’t have to use a taser or any physical force to do so. If you’re a LEO, it’s in your best interests to remember who it is that pays your salary: the public. Because your statements are pandering of the worst sort. Pandering to the idea of your own authority. Wearing a badge does not excuse you from having your authority questioned.

  21. A Good percentage of Rent-a-Cops are Wanna b’s Who Would NEVER pass Screening or Training for a Real LEO Job.
    Unfortunately, Most Small Town Cops, Including the One I was Reared in Fit into that Same Category. One in My Town put a Bullet through a 16 year old Girls Glove Compartment when She reached for her Registration! They Have Killed at Least One Local Boy recently Via Repeated Tasering&Chokehold, Injured Many More, Including Breaking my Then 70 Year Old Town Businessman/Church Organist?Board Member Trustee @ the Local College.
    Small Man Syndrome.
    When I Got out of the Milatary in 78, I moved to San Diego, Where in that 1st Year there, S.D. Police Killed 12 people for “Threatining” Police, w/Brooms/Dogs/Various implements…
    Hell YES I Pay Attention to LEO’s!
    Security Guards Are NOT QUALIFIED Or Responsible Enough/Trained Enough to Hold POWER of Life&Death.
    Go Read about Yourself in “The Authoritarians”, Bruce.
    b.

  22. Hmm, obviously most of the posters here have issues with authority. Honestly, if a LEO gives you a lawful order, you think its okay to lip off? You think its okay to taunt the officer?

    How should the officer have handled it? Should she have placed him under arrest? Do you think she knew some secret martial arts move to calmly take him to the ground? If this man is resisting arrest, how should she have handled it? How many of you worked in a similiar line of work? Do you know how hard it is to take someone down if they are resisting arrest, especially if there is a significant weight difference?

    Police work is difficult, and there are always armchair quarterbacks second guessing police, people whose jobs entail saying yes to people. Trying taking a job where you have to say “no” all day long. Americans are spoiled rotten. I wish I had a taser for every loud mouthed bully who thought he/she could bully me, intimidate me, guilt trip me, the whole while they are lying through their teeth.
    Oh and I don’t think he was pregnant. So that’s a total straw man argument.
    Yes sometimes people do deserve a kick in the head. People who walk through neighborhoods firing automatic weapons deserve a kick in the head. People who try to kill other people with their cars deserve a kick in the head.
    Honestly, this country went downhill when parents stopped telling their kids “no”.

  23. Civility evaporating,

    I think some LEO’s need to use better judgment and more self control–as well as learn when and how to use weapons like tasers and rubber bullets that don’t appear to be lethal.

    Here’s a sad story from my neck of the woods:

    Commissioner: Police ‘Devastated’ By Student’s Death
    Student, 21, Killed By Rubber Bullet
    10/22/04

    Excerpt:
    BOSTON — Friends and family are mourning the death of a 21-year-old Emerson College student who died Thursday, hours after she was shot by a Boston Police Department pellet gun.

    Newscenter 5’s Jim Morelli reported that police are investigating the death of East Bridgewater, Mass., student Victoria Snelgrove, and their efforts at crowd control during post-game rioting following the Red Sox win over the Yankees Wednesday night.

    “She loved the Red Sox, she went in [to town] to celebrate with friends, she was a bystander,” said Snelgrove’s father, Richard.

    Victoria Snelgrove was a bystander in a crowed that authorities estimated numbered between 60,000 and 80,000 people.

  24. September 2, 2010

    Cops and College: Do Police Need Book Smarts?

    Better-educated police officers resort less often to using force, research shows.

    By Melinda Burns

    Excerpt:

    http://www.miller-mccune.com/legal-affairs/cops-and-college-do-police-need-book-smarts-21852/

    Weighing in on a long-simmering dispute, a recent study for the Police Quarterly shows that officers with some college education are less likely to resort to force than those who never attend college.

    The study found no difference with respect to officer education when it came to arrests or searches of suspects. But it found that in encounters with crime suspects, officers with some college education or a four-year degree resorted to using force 56 percent of the time, while officers with no college education used force 68 percent of the time. “Force” included verbally threatening suspects, grabbing or punching them, using mace or pepper spray, hitting suspects with a baton, handcuffing, throwing to the ground, or pointing or firing a gun at them.

    “Up until now, the studies have been much more anecdotal, indicating that education may matter,” said William Terrill, an associate professor of criminal justice at Michigan State and a co-author of the study. “We found that a college education significantly reduces the likelihood of force occurring. The difference is real. It truly is because the officer was more educated, not because the suspect was more resistant.”

    Arrests, searches and the use of force are the “big three” decision-making points for police officers. The Michigan State study was the first to look simultaneously at all three vis-à-vis officer education. It found that education did not make much difference when it came to arrests and searches, confirming a number of other studies in the field. Arrests and searches are more constrained by law than the use of force.

    “There’s so much more discretion with the use of force and more room for biases to play out,” Terrill said. “High-school educated officers are more apt to say, ‘I’m the law and I have the authority to make you do it, and I’m going to put my hands on you and make you do it.’ Officers with a four-year degree are more skilled at resolving problems without having to resort to force. They’re giving the citizen alternative means of compliance. They’re not just relying on the stick.”

  25. Ha! This is sooo funny. You guys have all jumped to conclusions. Which is what you did in response to this article. I am unarmed. I work in healthcare. I am quite nice and polite. I make requests. I am diplomatic. But yet I am expected to stop 5150’s from leaving the facility. How am I supposed to acccomplish this? Oh yea a fight breaks out in my facility between patients. I am supposed to respond? Innocent bystanders may be hurt. People look to me to do something. I have nothing but a uniform. Are their issues with LEOs and security officers? Absolutely. My issue is, really, that there is more to this story. But you all immediately jump to conclusions and condemn this officer before all the facts are in. So the joke is on you.
    So the next time you are not getting your way, is it okay to start screaming and yelling at the $10 an hour receptionist? No its not. Unfortunately this is not enough to get you kicked off your Kaiser plan. So you get to come back in and traumatize more people by yelling and screaming because your needs are not being take care of fast enough. But wait, I am the guy with the badge. I’m the bad guy. Guees again. Take a look in the mirrow. Check out the beam in your eye.

  26. Some folks wonder why cops pull people over for burned out license plate lights. The answer is, that’s how they find wanted criminals. This guy giving the ranger a false name was a big red flag and a loud alarm bell, indicating that further investigation was necessary. She would have been wrong to let him go. Imagine the headlines: “Park ranger failed to identify notorious rapist before he killed Oakland cheerleader.”

    It sounds like Mr. Hesterberg wasn’t the innocent angel he was made out to be:

    “The incident occurred around 4:45 p.m. when the man was walking two dogs near the southern edge of McNee Ranch State Park. A ranger working for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area stopped the man for having one of his dogs off-leash, which is restricted in certain areas of the Rancho Corral property.

    An escalating argument ensued, according to John Barlett, a nearby resident who was walking in the area. The dog-walker was “defiant,” Barlett said, daring the ranger as he began walking away, “Are you going to arrest me?”

    That’s when the ranger pulled out her Taser, according to Barlett.”

    http://goo.gl/6bg7E

  27. Ha! This is sooo funny. You guys have all jumped to conclusions. Which is what you did in response to this article. I am unarmed. I work in healthcare. I am quite nice and polite. I make requests. I am diplomatic. But yet I am expected to stop 5150’s from leaving the facility. How am I supposed to acccomplish this? Oh yea a fight breaks out in my facility between patients. I am supposed to respond? Innocent bystanders may be hurt. People look to me to do something. I have nothing but a uniform. Are their issues with LEOs and security officers? Absolutely. My issue is, really, that there is more to this story. But you all immediately jump to conclusions and condemn this officer before all the facts are in. So the joke is on you.
    So the next time you are not getting your way, is it okay to start screaming and yelling at the $10 an hour receptionist? No its not. Unfortunately this is not enough to get you kicked off your Kaiser plan. So you get to come back in and traumatize more people by yelling and screaming because your needs are not being take care of fast enough. But wait, I am the guy with the badge. I’m the bad guy. Guees again. Take a look in the mirror. Check out the beam in your eye.

  28. All about Proportionate Response, Bruce…
    Dog Walking in an Area with Newly Changed Rules?
    Potentially LETHAL Response to Disrespect, is NOT very “Reasonable”, in Anybody’s Book but Yours, & Your Type.
    She Should have Ticketed the Fellow, Give Him his Day in Court, following him to his Car/Home, Or Just had some SENSE, and let it Be.
    P.s. The Businessman, was My “Never a Swear Word shall pass his lips Father, & they Broke his Elbow, after He had the GALL, to Complain about How they had treated his Eldest Son for a Riding a Bicycle w/out a Headlight Arrest. Petty Idiot Small Men in Uniform.
    b.

  29. You Sir, Are Dangerously UnQualified to Be Working in Mental Health, MY Profession!
    “Ha! This is sooo funny. You guys have all jumped to conclusions. Which is what you did in response to this article. I am unarmed. I work in healthcare. I am quite nice and polite. I make requests. I am diplomatic. But yet I am expected to stop 5150′s from leaving the facility. How am I supposed to accomplish this?”
    With TRAINING in NON-Violent Takedowns, idjit!
    I Worked for a Decade in Neuro/Psych Lockups, NEVER Hurt by a Client, long arms&Long Legs, & Built up Trust by Being HONEST with Clients.
    If YOU have to Resort to Hurting Clients, You DO NOT Belong in That Field.
    People Go into Health Occupations for Various Reasons, SOME, Because it Gives them POWER, Over those who Cannot Defend themselves… I put Prison Nursing Applications in Their Boxes, Tell them they Would be MUCH More Fulfilled There. So Would YOU, Bruce.
    Mental Patients Are in Lockup to Protect THEM for Asswipe’s like YOU on the Outside, NOT to Protect YOU from Them.
    Grow up.
    b.

  30. “Honestly, if a LEO gives you a lawful order, you think its okay to lip off? You think its okay to taunt the officer?”

    The operative word is “lawful”.

    “How should the officer have handled it? Should she have placed him under arrest?”

    She should have written a citation and been on her way instead of assaulting a citizen. There is quite a bit left to an officer’s discretion. This was an example of poor discretion and poor decision making on the part of the officer. A code violation? Doesn’t merit assaulting a citizen because Officer Chip On Her Shoulder felt her authority was questioned. She overreacted. Just like you’re overreacting because you don’t like having your authority challenged. The person with authority issues here is clearly you, Bruce. You seem to think yours is absolute simply because you carry a badge. It isn’t. There was no imminent physical threat to the officer or others in this instance. Force was not justified simply because someone didn’t like having their authority questioned. I’ve got bad news for you. You aren’t a judge. Questions of lawfulness don’t get decided by you. I hope Hesterberg sues the Hell out of the Park Service and costs this thug with a badge her job.

  31. “I am unarmed. I work in healthcare. I am quite nice and polite. I make requests. I am diplomatic. But yet I am expected to stop 5150′s from leaving the facility. How am I supposed to acccomplish this?”

    If you don’t know the answer to this question, you are woefully under-trained.

  32. @brucespoint,

    Sir,

    You have been nothing but insulting towards me. You have projected all your hang ups towards me. In truth, I have noticed that many in the mental health profession have power trips (take your meds or else!).

    Please, don’t tell me what I am qualified for. I suspect you are the one on the powertrip. The badge I wear angers you because it means I could be the one to tell you “no”. This bothers you on a fundamental level. It interferes with your notion of your own authority. I know the limits to my authority. I too build trust. But in reality not everyone can be controlled. I certainly am not going to tackle anyone. Sorry, any physical altercation can go bad. You can have the best training, the best technique, and still injure someone. That’s just a fact of life. I wish there was a simple method and no one gets hurt, but that’s just not reality.
    So why not just fess up to who you are, and what “exactly” you do in mental health? I bet you won’t because you enjoy hiding in the shadows taking potshots. Makes you feel powerful.

  33. OT. An excellent segment on DemocracyNow! this morning:

    “The House I Live In”: New Documentary Exposes Economic, Moral Failure of U.S. War on Drugs

    http://www.democracynow.org/2012/1/31/the_house_i_live_in_new

    “This weekend the top documentary prize at the Sundance Film Festival went to “The House I Live In,” which questions why the United States has spent more than $1 trillion on drug arrests in the past 40 years, and yet drugs are cheaper, purer and more available today than ever. The film examines the economic, as well as the moral and practical, failures of the so-called “war on drugs” and calls on the United States to approach drug abuse not as a “war,” but as a matter of public health. We need “a very changed dialogue in this country that understands drugs as a public health concern and not a criminal justice concern,” says the film’s director, Eugene Jarecki. “That means the system has to say, ‘We were wrong.'” We also speak with Nannie Jeter, who helped raise Jarecki as her own son succumbed to drug addiction and is highlighted in the film. We air clips from the film, featuring Michelle Alexander, author of “The New Jim Crow”; Canadian physician and bestselling author, Gabor Maté; and David Simon, creator of “The Wire.””

  34. @gene H,

    It was a rhetorical question. People are quick to be to critical, but are slow to offer solutions. What would your solution be? Mind you, the rules of the game is no “excessive” force is allowed. And we the peanut gallery determine what is “excessive”. For example, yelling “stop” might be deemed excessive. Get the point?

  35. “You have been nothing but insulting towards me. You have projected all your hang ups towards me. In truth, I have noticed that many in the mental health profession have power trips (take your meds or else!).”
    Truly, Read the book Son.
    I Work the FLOOR. I am, the “Bouncer in the Bin”, I Do know How to Call a Code Green, better Yet, nip the Human Crown Fire in the Bud, Before it turns into a Riot. I Love it! Keeps Me On My Toes All Shift!
    & Yes, I Have Very little tolerance for “Norms”, Who screw up a good thing just because they Can. Even Less for Small People w/Fake Badges.
    I could make a List of Beautiful Souls, Who’s Greater than Any small persons, Contribution to Society was Cut Short, by small people, With the Same Attitude as You.
    Bite Me.
    b.

  36. Moving the goal posts when your authority is challenged, huh?

    Do you or do you not know how to detain someone using minimal force techniques instead of a taser or a gun?

    I do and I’m not even a cop.

    Also, the question of “excessive” is now a matter for a judge to decide. The question the Park Ranger should have asked and still failed to answer before reaching for her weapon was “What is the minimum force required to resolve this situation?” In this instance, the answer is “none”. Once his true identity was ascertained, she should have written him a citation and been on her way. But no, because she felt like she wasn’t getting respected, she escalated the situation far beyond the simple code violation that it was. Now her bad decisions are likely going to result in a law suit that will cause her trouble at work if it doesn’t result in her being fired. If you don’t ask the right questions, you are guaranteed to get faulty answers. The proper question isn’t how much force is excessive, but rather what is the minimum force required.

  37. @Gene H.

    What I like about the “issue him a citation” response is the lack of thought of how she was supposed to accomplish this. So he gives a false name, refuses to cooperate, and walks off. A citation needs to have the violaters name, id/dl numbern home adress, etc. If he refuses to provide that information, how is she supposed to “issue a citation”? I am very interested in hearing your solution, and probably every cop out there.

    Talk is cheap. Just because I have a badge does not mean you have cause to treat me without civilty. I treat people with respect and I am polite, yet people think its okay to be abusive.

    Security officers are simply private citizens hired by a private individual or business to watch their property or enforce company policy. I have no more authority than any other private citizen. I cannot arrest anyone. I cannot use force except to protect myself or others. If foerce is to be used, there is a force continuim to followed, ideally. Unfortunately in real life one does not always think clearly in a confrontation.
    One word about “training”. This is always thrown out as a panacea for all that ails us. Reality is, training of the best kind is expensive. Not all companies are willing to put out the cash. Its just that simple. Companies, and cities, would rather fire an officer than give proper training. If I or any other person in this industry doesn’t have proper training, its not our fault. Blame the cities and companies that refuse to provide this training, if you must blame somebody.

    As for me, there is little I can do if someone really wants to ignore my “no”. My response is, if my client refuses to back me up, why hire me in the first place? If we tolerate scofflaws, why bother hiring police? Why have leash laws, since we are unwilling to back up the park ranger?

    I personally don’t give a crap about leash laws. But I tell you what, if that dog comes over to me and menaces my family, I don’t any hand wringing when I send unleashed dog to dog heaven.

  38. & Thank You, Bruce Wilson, for the Object Lesson.
    You came Here to set up a Strawman, & proved All of Ours Point.
    Please read the Authoritarians Book, & Gain a bit of Self Understanding.
    The World Will be a Better place for it.
    b.

  39. This response assumes that the officer gave the warning and was attempting to issue a citation when the man walked off. What should have been her response?

    In the criminal justice system no person has as much authority or discretion as the law enforcement officer on the scene. Often they’re much too quick to exercise the former and too slow to make use of the latter, maybe because of being told to “use your best judgment” instead of being provided clear rules of engagement.

    She could have let the guy walk and report it to her superiors, especially if she has not been specifically authorized to use the taser where someone walks away from the issuance of a citation.

    My suggestion if the leash regs are truly necessary and are being ignored by everyone — show up in force on a Saturday and in cooperation with local animal control round up the dogs not on a leash. If the owners use force against the officers, then tase away. Give the offender the opportunity to really ask for it by threatening the safety of a LEO.

    Fact of the matter, just having the pound truck in the parking lot will do wonders for behavior modification.

    I think bad supervision led to this incident.

  40. Hmmm, you have a massive chip on your shoulder. I don’t have a fake badge. Its very real. Badges are shields,meant to symbolize protection.. Authority is not derived from the badge. The 5150’s I deal with are in the ER or in the dr.ks office. Complete strangers. So suppose you weigh 200 pounds and your patient is 310 and decides he is going to leave, and he is pissed. You are in the ER with all kinds of equipement clutted all around. 5150 patient is barrelling towards you screaming at you. This occurrs 10 minutes into the standby. How much trust were able to create in those ten minutes? Go! You have 1 second to plan out your response. Guess wrong and and you will be out of work for the month recovering from you injuries, or out of work because Bubby got injured.

    By the way, Codes vary between hospitals. Code Green in Fontana, for example, means inbound trauma. This will vary even among all the Kaiser hospitals.

  41. Civility evaporating,

    Here’s an excerpt from the article that Professor Turley used as the source for his post:

    Witnesses said the use of a stun gun and the arrest seemed excessive for someone walking two small dogs off leash.

    “It was really scary,” said Michelle Babcock, who said she had seen the incident as she and her husband were walking their two border collies. “I just felt so bad for him.”

    Babcock said Hesterberg had repeatedly asked the ranger why he was being detained. She didn’t answer him, Babcock said.

    “He just tried to walk away. She never gave him a reason,” Babcock said.

    The ranger shot Hesterberg in the back with her shock weapon as he walked off, Babcock said.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/01/30/MN921N0LQT.DTL

  42. “What I like about the “issue him a citation” response is the lack of thought of how she was supposed to accomplish this. So he gives a false name, refuses to cooperate, and walks off. A citation needs to have the violaters name, id/dl numbern home adress, etc. ”

    He didn’t get to the park by walking there. You figure out the rest of the equation.

    Also, you’re not a cop by your own admission. If you took the job as a rent a cop without the appropriate martial skills? That’s your failing as an employee as well as a failure on the part of your employer. “Unfortunately in real life one does not always think clearly in a confrontation.” Really. That shows your unfitness for the job in the first place. Coincidentally enough, thinking clearly in a confrontation is exactly what the training teaches you to do: think clearly and act with rational thought in a violent situation. The first thing they teach you in MA training is to remain calm no matter how angry your opponent is. The second thing they teach you is how to control the situation with the minimal amount of force: disarm/disable and dissuade. Sometimes you can get to the dissuade stage without any force at all. The apex of strategy is to defeat your opponent without using any force at all. If faced with an intractable violent opponent, then and only then use damaging or lethal force. If you haven’t received this minimum amount of training, you should not be in law enforcement public or private because you are inherently a danger to yourself and to others; little more than a thug with a uniform.

    Also, judging by your response to a dog? You really demonstrate the mindset of those who cling to their “authority”. Unless the dog is clearly on the attack (you should be able to tell the difference), you should be able to outsmart it. It’s a dog.

    Yeah, there’s somebody here with authority issues, Bruce, but it isn’t the people upset over this Park Ranger’s overreaction.

    You’re an authoritarian, Bruce.

    Maybe you should question that.

  43. “I don’t have a fake badge. Its very real. Badges are shields,meant to symbolize protection”
    Hmmm, I Worked in SoCal, “Kaiser”&”Fontana”, all I needed to know.
    You are a lawsuit-in-waiting, if That’s the attitude you work with.
    Just hope it does not Hurt Anybody Else’s ability to Enjoy&Live Their Life.
    People, “Crazy” or Not, are Not Mad Dogs. Most “Consumers”, far better people than…
    Your Life, Live it Well.
    Just Follow the Nurses Cue’s, & at Least, Learn Your Vocation.
    You’ll be MUCH Safer. So Will Others.
    Been so GOOD Pointers given You here by Others, “I”, just Grew Up with people like You, little Tolerance for it, especially when it involves My Clients.
    b.

  44. Omg this is too funny. Ok. What this is really is a Ink blot test. Actually I have martial training . So there! I study T’ai Chi Chuan. Look it up. All about not hurting anyone. Also look up what the requirements for being in security. Varies between states. Haha. A thug? Please, this is name calling. I deal with this all the time. Its called an ad hominem attack. My job is all about customer service. I sit at a desk and walk around every hour. Every now and then someone is going to the hospital, and I standby and make sure they are ok. I get them water, and show them where the restrooms are. My being problem is boredom. No, I am not a rent a cop (not a cop), or tin hat dictator in training. No really, the joke is on you guys for making assumptions. And it proves my point: people who hate cops and security officers have not dealt with their own inner thug. Taking this job has taught me a great deal about force and authority. I had to get go of a lot of ego. And yes if someone wants to push past I let me go. How does that make me a thug?

    Getting trainin in martial arts does not neccessarily equipe one for a confrontation. Plenty of blackbelts have been beaten by street punks. The only thing that truly pepares someone for a confrontation is an actual confrontation. I use diplomacy all the time to diffuse situations.

    The real issue here is our understanding of Force. Our culture has a real ambivalancetowards it, but yet we are enthusiatic supporters of deadly force when we feel threatened. 911 is a good example of this.

    The reality is my OP was more about blowing off steam. But we can always second guess an LEO, or a soldier’s actions, without realizing that officer may have nnot been given clear guidelines. This happens all time. I have worked at seriously dysfunctional sites where the client wants rules enforced, but are not given any training, or clear guidelines to enforcing the rules. I am lucky that I have above average intelligence and can negotiate ambigious situations. But your average officer is not.
    “He obviously didn’t walk to the park”. He could have ridden the bus, no? She follows him, and he walks around for hours. She wastes more time to write this citation.
    Lol. Since I wasn’t there, I really don’t know all the details. And neither do any of you guys. Please, no more “rush to judgement”! Heck, he could have been an exboyfriend.
    Concerning dogs, I have had companion dogs my whole life. Once again someone assumed much. I know perfectly well a dogs body language, better than most “pet” owners.
    The question (which only one poster has brought up) is why was this guy being so argumentative in the first place. Why is he insisting on violating the ordinance? What makes him so special, hmmmm?
    What I think is interesting is I haven’t resorted to name calling. I have remained calm. I have attempted to have reasoned discource. Have you done the same? I can hold up the mirror, but I can’t force you to look in it. That’s up to you.

  45. “Getting trainin in martial arts does not neccessarily equipe one for a confrontation.”

    Then you didn’t learn the lessons properly because you clearly don’t understand how to apply them. Skills you cannot apply you might as well not have.

    The rest of what you say is simply rationalization for your authoritarianism and defense of excessive force.

    You’ve shown your mindset and you haven’t won any converts to your genuflecting to authority.

  46. I’ve been lucky enough to spend some time in our National Parks, and seen what LEO Rangers have to put up with. They are not “rent-a-cops”, but sadly many of them have to be full-on cops most of the time. Much of California’s craziness shows up in Yosemite valley, Joshua Tree and other parks. They have to deal with illegal firearms, drugs, and all the normal types of crime: fights, rape, theft, etc. I’m from Chicago, where most police patrol in pairs, so once I realized what rangers were dealing with in many cases, I was pretty stunned to notice that they almost always were out solo. Putting rangers in that kind of position of weakness probably contributes to this kind of (probable) over-reaction.

    I’m not saying that these factors justified that ranger’s actions, but it’s worth understanding they don’t just deal with littering picnickers, and they they are typically alone.

    (I assume I’m not the only one here who chuckled at the irony of Bruce pointing out that *other* people were projecting their issues onto *him*…)

    In the aftermath of these incidents, I typically ask “or what?” If this jerk had walked away with his unleashed dogs, what would have happened? The ranger’s “authoritaaaaayyyy” would not have been respected, and that’s not a trivial issue. But it’s not like he’s in the middle of beating his wife, and if the ranger didn’t stop him, he would have continued the assault.

  47. I live around the corner from this place I am sure he DID walk to this park. It is surrounded by neighborhood back yards and has been used as a dog walking area for 30 YEARS that I am aware of… perhaps even more. GGNRA “took over” this land last month (which had been used by residences for decades) and changed the rules. Needless to say, those that had been using the area resposibly are PISSED. I for one have worked many clean up days, and removed invasive plants from this area long before asshole rangers like this lady moved in. All of you do not live in this area, and know the back story. The guy was walking his dogs, just like every one else has been doing there forever.

  48. Via an attorney friend. EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT – this little incident is going to cost us TAX PAYERS to pay for this lady’s out of control actions.

    Yesterday my husband and I walked our two border collies on the cement trail of Ranch Corral de Tierra. On our way home a woman walking her dog told us to leash our dogs because a park ranger was handing our citations. So we leashed our dogs and we encountered a man in his late forties with his two little dogs (no bigger than the size of a beagle) being cited by a park ranger for not having them on a leash. Since we had never seen a park ranger during our 7 years of walking our dogs there, we asked her why she was patrolling the area. She quickly responded that the area was now under GGNRA control. The man she was citing had already leashed his dogs and provided her all his personal information. He asked her if he could go home and she said No. He than asked her to provide him a ticket or tell him why he couldn’t leave. The park ranger was very rude and told him he could not leave unti l she heard by from her base but didn’t tell him what she needed to hear from them or why he was being detained. After ten minutes the man asked her again to let him know why he could not leave or just cite him but she gave him no answer. My husband even asked her why she was not letting the man go on his way and she told him to stay out of it. Eventually, the man just started walking in our direction so he could go home. This really upset the park ranger and she told him to stop and that he could not leave. Once again the man asked why and just told her to give him a ticket or let him know if he was being arrested. Note that he had already leashed his two small dogs and was puzzled at the fact that he could not leave. Since she did not respond as to why he was being detained nor tell him the type of jurisdiction she had over him, he started to walk away and she told him that she would tase him if he walked another step. The man replied that he had a heart condition and to not taser him as it could be life threatening. He gave her his back to look at me and my husband in disbelief to what was going on and the park ranger fired her taser at him. The poor man fell to floor and you could see that he was in a lot a pain. An elderly man was walking right by the man when he got tasered and luckily the passerby was not hurt. It was completely incredulous to see what was going on over two small dogs that were not leashed. About ten minutes later the sheriff came and hand cuffed the man. He asked us to take his dogs home and tell his wife what just happened. We heard ambulances on their way and believe that instead of going to jail (for doing nothing) was taken to a local hospital.

  49. Waiting on base . . . for 10 minutes . . . WTF, you say . . . Probably waiting on a Wants and Warrants report . . . didn’t yo know these Park Rangers are an integral cog in this Country’s Homeland Security infrastructure . . . those could have been anchor Beagles . . . we know Beagles can fly airplanes, at least Sopwiths . . . they speak French and like little red hair girls, too. . . .

  50. Thanks AN….That has been a premise for a long time…..Generally…the Highway Patrol requires education for all of its officers….

  51. “Wearing a badge does not excuse you from having your authority questioned.” (Gene)

    Simple truth.

    It’s time to formally challenge this officer’s authority in court. Unfortunately for her, there are witnesses

  52. http://www.hmbreview.com/news/witnesses-dog-walker-tased-by-park-ranger-in-montara/article_02b264dc-4b86-11e1-b619-0019bb2963f4.html

    Posted: Monday, January 30, 2012

    By Mark Noack

    Excerpt:

    San Mateo County Sheriff’s deputies and paramedics were called out to the scene, and the man was ultimately delivered to jail on unspecified charges.

    GGNRA officials said they could not immediately answer questions about the incident on Monday morning. Officials with the parks service said they are still confirming details of what happened.

    Within a matter of hours, the Taser incident generated cries of foul play among the close-knit dog-walking community in Montara. GGNRA took control of the Rancho Corral property in December, and some dog advocates have accused the agency of trying to limit where they can take their canines off-leash.

    “There is total outrage about this. Everyone thinks this is a total excessive use of force,” said Bill Bechtell, who runs the Montara Dog Blog and email group. “I hope this guy hires an attorney because I think he’s got a strong case.”

  53. Oh please, now you are being silly. I haven’t touched anyone in my whole life. I have been in one fight, and I was challenged to that one. I hate fighting. I hate confrontation. What makes working security so difficult for me is I am quite liberatarian and would rather live and let live.

    That’s a blantatly ignorant response. Ask any combat soldier if there is a difference between simulated violence and actual bullets whizzing past you. There is a thing called “the fog of war”. Think about that. Watch the opening sequence to Saving Private Ryan. Then watch again and again. Do you think any sort of training prepares one to seeing your fellow soldier subjected to that kind of ferocity and carnage. Please. What you are defending is a fantasy of the worst sort. It allows you and your ilk to feel superior. Well my goodness. Where were you on 911? Maybe you could have diffused the terrorists of their murderous intentions. Oy!

    The reality is this guy pushed her buttons and she responded. Honestly, one could say two assholes got into an argument at the park and one had a taser. This happened in my own small town of Temecula, except the cop was off duty. But he had a gun. So he was acting like an asshole, and this other asshole decided to get his buddy and bushwack him. They snuck up behind him and whacked him with a chair. Cop went down, drew his gun and killed his attacker, and wounded the buddy. Wait by god you are right. The cop’s training *did* prepare him. So there. Two assholes tangled, and one died. The one who brought a chair to a gunfight. Dumb asshole.
    By the way, most people who work in psych are assholes. There. I did it. Guilt by association, ad hominen attacks, etc.
    By the way, all this shows is the internet is great in speeding up all the howling monkeys do when they’re pissed off.

  54. I’m not being silly in the slightest. Then again, I took practical martial arts where sparring and tournaments were encouraged instead of the martial arts equivalent of aerobics. Being silly is conflating wartime combat and civilian conflict in the name of rationalizing overreactions when someone’s authority is questioned.

  55. It sounds like Mr. Hesterberg wasn’t the innocent angel he was made out to be:

    “The incident occurred around 4:45 p.m. when the man was walking two dogs near the southern edge of McNee Ranch State Park. A ranger working for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area stopped the man for having one of his dogs off-leash, which is restricted in certain areas of the Rancho Corral property.

    An escalating argument ensued, according to John Barlett, a nearby resident who was walking in the area. The dog-walker was “defiant,” Barlett said, daring the ranger as he began walking away, “Are you going to arrest me?”

    That’s when the ranger pulled out her Taser, according to Barlett.”

    http://goo.gl/6bg7E

  56. Lol. Thanks for the belly laugh. Yes we sparred and had “tournaments”. Tell me, at any of your “sparring” rounds did you follow rules? If someone got hurt, did the match stop? At your tournaments, were there lethal weapons present (not training blades)? Please. My great grandmaster is from China. His training was very different than what is taught in america. Please stop. You are only showing your ignorance. But wait, then I wouldn’t have anything to chuckle over. Training can help someone prepare, but it is not the thing itself. That’s why they call it “training”. The more realistic and repetive training will help prepare, but it cannot assure success. If you want proof, go take your “training”, find the scariest place you know, find a big badass, and tell him off. When he and his three buddies come after you, let me know how it went. Rememember: real life=no rules.

  57. “Well my goodness. Where were you on 911?”
    Actually, in a Day room filled with Clients Trying to Comprehend What Just Happened, 1st Day on the Floor at a New “Institute of Mental Disease”/Psychiatric Lock Up Rehab… Was a Great Way to Start there.
    Got Them thru it, took bout a Year to Really sink into Me.
    & Had Family in the Following, I’ve Done My Service to Country, Viet era, Have You?
    Classic Troll though, but a lil thick.
    Keep practicing, but Best to really have something to Contributed, than Thumpin yer Chest Behind a puter in your bedroom.
    b.

  58. This govt. and govt. around the world are messaging their citizens. As disgusting as this action was, it is by no means isolated. “Law” enforcement is uparmored to the teeth. They are going to teach us all a lesson–do not resist, do not ask questions, obey unjust authority or you will pay. This isn’t just happening in the US although the US is helping other repressive regimes around the world. Here is one newly exposed connection between weapons used on our citizens and weapons supplied by the US govt. to keep down the people in Bahrain. It is all interconnected.

    “As the Arab Spring unfolded last year, protesters in the streets saw something startling about the tools of repression being used on them. The
    Humvees, tanks, helicopters were from the US government; the canisters of chemical agents used to attack them said, “Made in the USA.”

    The Obama Administration wants to sell 44 of these M1152A1B2 Armored High Mobility Multi-Purpose Wheeled Vehicles (HMMWVs) and other weapons to the dictators of Bahrain. Bahrain, home to the US Fifth Fleet and close ally of Saudi Arabia, brutally suppressed the uprising among their citizens. More than 40 pro-democracy protesters were killed and thousands more were arrested and tortured. While speaking out loudly on Libya’s brutality, the Obama administration remained largely silent on Bahrain.

    Last fall the Obama administration announced plans to sell Bahrain $53 million worth of military weapons including bunker buster missiles, armored vehicles and wire-guided missiles. The Pentagon said at the time the sale “will improve Bahrain’s capability to meet current and future armored threats. Bahrain will use the enhanced capability as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen its homeland defense.”

    Congressional opposition to the sale forced Obama to delay the weapons transfer. Now, sources have leaked, the Obama administration is quietly moving forward with the arms sales to the Bahraini monarchy – despite their on-going human rights abuses…” Warisacrime.org

  59. Right, and everyone conviently ignores this. This is politics folks. The locals had something done to them, and they are pissed. I have been there myself. My father had 20 acres in the country. No one walked their dogs on aleash. It would be absurd to do so. We had a city boy move in, and started feuding with his neighbors. So I had an animal control officer (who are badged and often armed nowadays) take my dog off my property to a kennel. That’s when I found out that in the entire county of Riverside (second largest county in USA. Its huge!) Leash laws apply everywhere. Its a big county folks, lots of open space. I was majorly pissed. But what I did do was pay the fee to bail my dog out, and then had a polite but firm discussion with the officer. What I did not do is tell her she was an idiot, etc etc etc.

    So local politics. I get it. So just be aware, many of the witnesses are going to alter their story, hoping to get her fired. Then maybe the park will recind their leash rule. Its a power play folks, pure and simple. Like I said, being in security has taught me many things. One is to recognize a power play when I see one.

  60. Cartman “respect my authoritay”! How droll! So we at the what you say bounces off me and sticks to you stage?

  61. Thank you to the ranger!!!! We appreciate your hard work and for protects our rights and our safety. This dog owner is just like the rest. I have been verbally abused and physically threatened by many dog owners like him. I didn’t think anyone would act like that to a ranger but apparently that is the case. Good for the ranger for protecting the rest of us: law abiding citizens. I hope this means I won’t be threatened as much anymore by dog owners who break the law day in day out.

  62. See What Happens when You Feed the Trolls….
    More come in Outta tha Woodwork!
    I Apologize for My Contribution to the Fun.
    =8^ D
    sometimes it’s jus’ too tempting to resist.
    b.

  63. No. We’re at the “you’re simply ridiculous” phase. That phase started when you tried to equate wartime combat with civilian conflict, Eric. Ridiculous statements by ridiculous people get . . . ridicule. Shocking my lack of respect for your alleged authority, but since you don’t have any, I suggest you learn to deal with it.

  64. I am looking at the postings at the present and am able to determine that this is not a secure site. The properties show an unusual interference access by authorized or unauthorized individuals with some level of trust on the part of the party administrator.

  65. Not CPI per say. The training mandated by Kaiser by their contract with Securitas (Interconn was replaced in 2009) specified MOAB training. This is the training all Kaiser employees receive. I think most of the bashers posting are missing my point, but its their perogative.

    I was making a point that “training” doesn’t automatically prevent injuries or confer the ability to diffuse all situations. If one believes that the training they are provided will be usefull for *all* situations are being set up for a fall and a fail. I understand human biology is difficult to train out, or modify. We would like to believe we could diffuse every situation, or arrest someone with no injuries, but I don’t think that’s possible. Despite much training, one’s first contact with a high stress situation will involve an adreline dump. If one has never experienced this, then there is no way to relay this in words. Public agencies tell everyone that this training is wonderful and will prevent all violence, but this simply not true.

  66. Cindy,

    Hard work doesn’t involve taz’n! Hard work is using your brains and social skill to do a simple job! She’s not protecting your rights, she’s letting you know you don’t have any!

  67. “If indeed you have a pacemaker, then its in your best interest to listen to a LEO when they tell you to stop walking away from them.”

    Bruce,

    He was walking a dog without a leash. Should he have been arrested? according to you the citizen is required to obey any LEO’s orders. Now in a common sense way that is true since the LEO has the weapons. However, having a badge and a gun does not a genius nor a sane person make and too often LEO’s have let their power prerogatives go to their heads just because they can get away with it. If you consider yourself “trained” and couldn’t exert your authority in this situation without the use of force, then you should be fired. Any LEO with good policing skills would have handled this without a problem. Unfortunately, too many LEO’s get carried away with the high that authority gives them and in this respect are little different that “junkies”, except their drug is power.

  68. I think “Cindy”, has Her Tongue So Firmly into her Cheek she May Choke if she’s not Careful…
    But lil EriC…
    Remember, bout 30% of the Population…
    See How Easy?
    Read lil EriC, R.E.A.D.
    then think bout it awhile, no absolutes.
    b.

  69. Nice job, Eric! When pinned, you move to goal post to an absolutist position that nobody but you made in the first place. In order to effectively deploy the tactic of reductio ad absurdum, you must first understand it.

    The point of training isn’t to eliminate violence, but to minimize it.

    Something you can’t do when you’re so busy defending excessive force as a method to handle disrespect of your authority.

    What a maroon.

  70. “and then had a polite but firm discussion with the officer.”

    Bruce,

    She didn’t want your backtalk and sass. She certainly didn’t want your firmness. She should have tased you for disobeying/disrespecting her authority.

  71. I was referring to your repeated personal attacks.

    Wartime, in some ways, is much less stressfull. Police have to constantly distinguish between friendlies and non friendlies. This is why wars such as vietnam and iraq/afganistan produce much more psychological trauma. And why cops usually burn out after about five years. I did start the process for the Riverside Sheriffs department. I realized what the job really entailed and decided I couldn’t hack it. I admit it. But I understand my job so much better now. My point, if you even bothering to read with an open mind, is that every confrontation is a unique situation, and training can help, but not be the silver bullet to prevent things from going sideways. Training needs to be realistic, and its hard to fake certain situations. I learned this during a CERT exercise where actors playes victims. Then the fire captain threw in “wildcards”. Yea. People were on the verge of panic. How would they respond to the real thing? Something to think about.

  72. You are missing the point. You are requred to obey a lawful order. This is where you start researching what that is. Next, after you have been cited, falsely arrested, you can file a complaint and retain a lawyer. She did not release him. That is a form of arrest. I as a security officer cannot arrest anyone. This means I cannot detain anyone. I cannot tell someone to wait here until I get back. Both actions would constitute a false arrest. What he should have done is obeyed her orders, and AFTER the rude cop is done with him, contact his lawyer. That is when you argue back, not when you are being detained. You argue with cop, and then walk away, you get handcuffed. If Officer warns you are about to get tased, STOP! For god’s sake, put your hands up. And don’t move! After. This is key. Afterwards call your lawyer.

  73. Eric,

    “Wartime, in some ways, is much less stressfull. Police have to constantly distinguish between friendlies and non friendlies. This is why wars such as vietnam and iraq/afganistan produce much more psychological trauma.”

    Do you realize how that is not only contradictory, but bullshit as well? Policing is a stressful job, however, it is not the equivalent of the stress warfare or even close by comparison.

    “I did start the process for the Riverside Sheriffs department. I realized what the job really entailed and decided I couldn’t hack it. I admit it.”

    That certainly explains a lot about your issues with authority.

    “My point, if you even bothering to read with an open mind, is that every confrontation is a unique situation, and training can help, but not be the silver bullet to prevent things from going sideways. ”

    Actually that wasn’t your initial point. It’s the one you moved to when your initial point that people should automatically capitulate to authority got roundly and rightly laughed at for being an authoritarian drivel. No one ever said training was a silver bullet. You tried to argue that extreme on a tangent once it was shown that if you have proper training, you clearly don’t know how or won’t use it. The point made by me was only that you can’t minimize violence as effectively without training as you can with training. Then again, minimizing violence apparently isn’t one of your prerogatives when someone’s authority is being challenged, merely forcing compliance.

  74. Sorry, Eric, but I’ve told cops no on several occasions and I’ve not been arrested for it. But then again, I do know my rights better than any cop.

  75. In 2009, the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals set a judicial standard for the use of a stun gun by police, which would include park rangers as they have the role of a law officer on park property.

    In that 3-0 ruling, Judge Kim Wardlaw said, “the objective facts must indicate that the suspect poses an immediate threat to the officer or a member of the public.”

    Wardlaw went on to say that a stun gun must be used when substantial force is required and other options have been exhausted.

  76. Who is Eric? Gary H. Oh wait *you’re* the one who got tased. Good deal.this explains everything. And speaking of moving goal posts, you are doing a fine job. Yes training helps minimize violence. Compare/contrast is one way to discuss an issue. I was talking about the training a soldier receives vs.actual combat. I was comparing *that* to the training a police officer receives vs the actual stress of a confrontation. And then, I was comparing *that* to the training people receive, and the reality. Then I was stating, just because a person receives training, doesn’t mean they won’t make a mistake. Or that things will go wrong. Or you finall encounter that one guy who is really good at pushing peoples buttons. No gary, I am sorry. You push buttons bait those in authority. If you came in my clinic and started yelling at my coworkers, I won’t tase you, but I will be more than happy to dial 911 and let the cops do it.

  77. “I am looking at the postings at the present and am able to determine that this is not a secure site. The properties show an unusual interference access by authorized or unauthorized individuals with some level of trust on the part of the party administrator.”
    Mebbe some leetle “friends” of mine through the tubes of the interweb…
    Hey! Contractors have ta Do Sumptin, to Justify their Well Paid on Our dime Buttz! Picked up a parasite or two through the good graces on FB couple years back…
    b.
    =8^P

  78. A couple of stray comments. I bet if you were a neighbor of the taser lady you would notice a high volume of dog crap in her yard from the neighborhood pack. If the local newspaper gets thrown in her yard daily I bet it gets snatched often. The protocal for stopping the dog walker when she ordered him to stop or freeze would have been to walk after him. Rather than shoot him in the back with a Taser she could have shot a real pistol in the air to get his attention. But she suffers from attention deficit disorder and shoots him in the back with the Taser. If the neighborhood kids dont like her they can pull the poop in the bag and light it on fire on the doorstep and ring the bell trick. When she stomps on the bag the poop goes all over her legs and door foyer.
    As for the lap dogs who were running wild in the wilds of the National Park without a lease or a leash: Dont ya wish you were a bear that day? A domestic animal gets no wildlife rights and gets treated like a dog–rules, curfews, limited diet, all that : sit!, Stay!, roll over or I will Tase you! All that crap.

  79. I recall when Tasers were first introduced that they were billed as an alternative to lethal force. Their use was supposedly for situations where lethal force might otherwise be required. We really need to go back to that standard. Tasers should only be used where the alternative is to escalate to the use of lethal force. If the officer wouldn’t shoot the guy in the back with a firearm, then she shouldn’t shoot him in the back with a Taser.

    Authoritarian regimes are big on asserting that authority. The United States is becoming (if it isn’t already) an authoritarian regime.

  80. Gary, thank you for confirming what I originally posted. You deserved it. The best way not to get tased in the back, is not turn your back to the taser. By the way, you failed to mention what martial art you are trained in. Care to share? I notice I have been quite open about my background, but you and et al stay in the shadows. Doesn’t really matter I suppose. Most of the posters here need to educate themselves. Its important to stick up for your rights, but picking fights with a LEO is a really dumb way to go about it.

    Honestly, if you guys hate cops so much, why don’t you move someplace where there are no police? Better yet, move to a real police state and see what its like. We need to be wary of police abuses, state abuses of power, but really, a hothead arguing with a cop and getting tased is not evidence of a police state. Try reading about the Old West and see how things were. They were prettty violent. And sometimes the marshalls were bad guys with badges. But not every marshall was a power hungry thug with a badge, unless you define anyone with a badge as a thug. This tells me a great deal. I am familiar with police abuses. We had police raid the wrong house in my small town. Ooops. Their special unit was disbanded.

    But hey, whatever. So gene h. Wat is exactly your background? Brucespoint, you say you worked at kaiser fontana? Really? As a psych tech? When? See, I don’t think you did. Both you and gene are the trolls. Every argument is classic debate tactics. What’s interesting, brucespoint, is that you describe yourself as a “bouncer”. Hmm that’s very revealing because lingo comes from bars and nightclub. Those are the lowest of the low in the security industry. I am not a “bouncer”. I don’t “bounce” anyone. So. In truth I think there is so much horseshit flying around. In truth, the people who give me the most problems are self-righteous blowhards who are always second guessing everyone else, whose time is more important than anyone elses, whose needs are more important than anyone elses. In my experience, its the bullies who cry the hardest when they get tased.

  81. Truth is, there is no such thing as non-lethal force. All force carries the potential for harm. Especially if the person is resisting or under the infuence. Even using tranq darts can kill. Use the wrong dosage and the subject will suffocate. Someone mentioned firing a pistol over their head. Right. Please mention that to *any* cop and be prepared for the laughter. Obviously this person has never handled firearms around people. My point is that people who critise like this have never been in these situations. There is always a “this coulda been handled better” scenario. The question is: did gary h. Ignore a lawful order? Did he ignore lear warnings from the ranger? Did he argue with the Ranger? Did he become so angry that the officer had justifiable reason that he woul resist arrest? If in fact, she did not release him, he was under arrest at this point. What was the height and weight difference between gary and the officer? Was he much bigger than her? Does anybody know what the parks policy is in this matter? What is the parks policy on use of force? But wait, so much easier to badmouth the officer and anyone else. So much easier.

  82. @Bruce Wilson: Earlier in comments I recall you saying that you were a security guard. In response, and especially in light of your last comment @ 8:51, I can see why.

  83. Bruce Wislon—“Ask any combat soldier if there is a difference between simulated violence and actual bullets whizzing past you. There is a thing called “the fog of war”. Think about that. Watch the opening sequence to Saving Private Ryan. Then watch again and again. Do you think any sort of training prepares one to seeing your fellow soldier subjected to that kind of ferocity and carnage. Please. What you are defending is a fantasy of the worst sort. It allows you and your ilk to feel superior. Well my goodness. Where were you on 911? Maybe you could have diffused the terrorists of their murderous intentions. Oy”

    Are you suggesting that this particular Park Ranger and the police in general are at war with the citizenry?

  84. Roman,

    Yep.

    **********

    Eric,

    “By the way, you failed to mention what martial art you are trained in. Care to share? I notice I have been quite open about my background, but you and et al stay in the shadows.”

    That would be because, unlike people who have issues with their author-it-tie not being respected, I have no compulsive need to compare dick size in public. I know what I know and I use it when I have to and not before. Let’s just call it a mixed martial arts background and leave it at that.

    “Truth is, there is no such thing as non-lethal force. All force carries the potential for harm.”

    Bullshit. Harm and lethality are distinct concepts. If you had any real MA training, you’d know this and know the difference. One can detain someone with an arm bar or any number of different joint locks without causing permanent harm or you can finish through the move and break joints, none of which are likely to be lethal even if debilitating. I know several joint locks that will make an opponent cry like a little girl long before they come anywhere close to permanent harm unless they are psychotic or on something like PCP. The key lies in controlling the tension on the joint. Just Google “Small Circle Jujitsu” if you want to see real and effective joint locks in action. All you need to be able to subdue an opponent is be able to grab their fingers, wrist and/or arm. Huge amounts of force are not required to render effective control and your opponent – if they don’t resist too hard and you know what you’re doing – is left with little more than soreness. Almost all of these techniques can be escalated into breaking techniques, but they are taught because they work as controlling techniques. Control is the whole point of serious MA training, both of yourself and your opponent. Contrast this with a blow to the throat, which can very easily be lethal even when executed by someone with even master level skills. This is why these techniques are not taught as controlling techniques, but killing techniques only to be used against intractable opponents. Much like police work, when it comes to martial arts, you’re talking out of your ass.

  85. Gene, my youngest son started out in Shotokan when he was only about 13. Later he got a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. His training was useful to him in the military, since he was in law enforcement. After his discharge, and while he was waiting for his license to practice to be issued by the State, he went to work on the Maximum Security unit of a very large state hospital as uniformed security.

    That unit housed both pretrial detainees waiting on a mental exam up to people that even the state penitentiary could not handle.

    When they had a patient/inmate who became unruly or refuse to come out of his cell, they usually sent for my son. It did not hurt that he was 6’5″ tall and weighed 270 pounds. Thing was, the inmates learned very quickly that if the Captain sent for “Big Tim,” as they called him, there was going to be pain involved. Despite his massive size, and formidable skills (or perhaps because of), he never actually injured or even bruised anyone. But there was always going to be pain if he had to go in a cell and get someone.

  86. He was, raff, he really was. Gentle giant. You should have seen him gently intubate a tiny newborn with those giant hands, yet he had the strength of an NFL offensive lineman. And a heart as big as all outdoors.

  87. OS,

    I read a thread at the Daily that was very nice about you and your loved ones….They must think very highly of you….

  88. I see now what the problem is. I see shades of gray. You guys see everything as black and white. Yep. Definately fundamentalists here.

    By the by, I write a 500 word essay, and all you can say is, “yep that’s why you are a security officer. This shows me! Well, care to share your logic and argument, so others can respond? I suppose and say coyly, lyour last comment certainly shows what a loser you are.”

    What gary et al are doing is classic passive aggressive behavior. Its designed to provoke the antagonist into committing an outrage so all good citizens can cluck their disapproval.

    You know, in my 40 years, I have had only two contacts with LEO’s aside from traffic stops. Why are some of you having so many negative contacts? How many times do you blame the police for how they reacted? At one point does the victim take *some* responsibility? Or are you the types who forever blame your parents for your cruddy childhood?

    This not about name calling. Its about examining your prejuidices. That extends to people who wear badges. Why are you so prejuidiced? From where comes thy hatred? My point is this: the only thing a power hungery thug hates more is a power hungery thug with more authority than they have.

    Oh, for just general info: a LEO authority is not derived from their badge or gun. They are issued a licence by their employer (a government agency). This license is to be carried by them, and defines their jurisdiction. What seperates a LEO from private security is not the carrying of a gun, but their possession of the license, which gives them the right to deprive a citizen of their liberty.

    What’s interesting is doctors have this ability too. Its called 5150. A county certified md can place a 72 hour hold on you. In that time a social worker will evaluate your mental/emotional state. You can either be released, or be sent to a pysch ward. Chew on that for awhile. Wonder what can get you committed? Fancy, the md doesn’t even have a badge and gun, but can have you locked up.

  89. No. I was talking about training versus the real deal. People seem to think well trained cops and well trained soldier will never do anything wrong. I was suggesting this thinking is a fallacy. Did you read all the comments, or are you simply cherry picking?

  90. Bruce, 40 you say? I have kids older than you and have been in this business longer than you have been alive. Based on my reading of your comments, you would have difficulty getting past my pre-hire psych screening tests. And as I said, I was doing this before you were born. I am not going to discuss my reasoning, because I don’t publish my methodology.

    And one other thing. I am one of those Docs with a license to sign commitment papers. Don’t try to impress me with what you think you know; I don’t impress easily.

  91. “This not about name calling. Its about examining your prejuidices. That extends to people who wear badges. Why are you so prejuidiced?”

    I’m not prejudiced against cops. I have friends in LE. Real LE too, not security guards. It’s a tough job and most people aren’t suited for it. I’m prejudiced against assholes who think respect is due without being earned and aren’t afraid to use a taser to get it. None of the guys (and one gal) that I know would have used a taser in the scenario outlined above. They’re smarter than that and don’t have ego issues.

    ************

    OS,

    A good friend of mine named Dan is a perfect example at the other end of that size scale. He’s 5’10”, maybe 150# at the outside fully clothed. Looks like an accountant. One of the nicest if not the nicest person I know. Wouldn’t hurt a fly if given the option. And yet? He is a walking can of Bushidokan whoop ass. He’s got a really funny story about someone in high school wanting to fight him when he was learning how to use nunchaku. I’ll email you the story.

  92. Gene,
    One of our new staff just completed her doctorate. Tiny gal, only 5’1″ and really pretty, but former Army Sergeant who could clean the clock of a would-be attacker. Like your guy, looks are deceiving.

    Once, two very disheveled deputy sheriffs brought in this guy who was in his early 50s. Thin and wiry, and I doubt he weighed much more than 140#. The deputies both had buttons missing and torn shirts. The prisoner was wearing three pairs of Smith & Wesson handcuffs. One pair had a broken chain. If fact the remaining chain links looked as if they had been stretched with a gear puller. When they got the first pair of cuffs on him, he simply yanked his hands apart, breaking the chain. They had two sets of cuffs left between them, and after a scramble, got them on the guy. He could snap one chain, but not two.

    They did not use Tasers on him.

  93. Fascinating. Well, gary you certainly are the superior man. Can’t pour tea into a full teacup.

    Unfortunately, you wouldn’t be the first MMA stylist who has over inflated opinions about their abilities. But you certainly cried like a little girl when you got tased. Must have been a blow to your ego.

    Tell you what. For about 600 dollars you can buy the civilian version of the TASER. Go back to the park and tase the ranger. Just do it. You will feel so much better.

    MMA oh for the sake of…jujitsu is japanese wrestling. Small circle, small frame…T’ai Chi is taught with three frames: large circle (this is the public form most people are familiar with). Then medium, then small. Sorry, most MMA teachers have a smattering of training here and there. I hope yours is different. But honestly, your own actions prove my point. You have some training, and now you think you know better than all those cops. Must gall you that they don’t have the training you do, but they get to order you around. Your lack of knowledge and discernment is profound.

    Your statements about joint locks is indicative of someone with little real world experience. I am sorry, but that’s my opinion. People in MMA are always bragging about their skill and how they are so much better fighters. Whatever. Most really have no clue about where their knowledge comes from.

  94. Look, I never claimed security was anything like law enforcement. Security is no more “fake cop” than cops being “wannabe security”. Security and LE are two distinct but related fields. Honestly? Most cops make terrible secuity officers. We have had more ex cops wash out of Healthcare. Ex soldiers wash out.

    What is interesting is how much name calling you and et al have done, simply because I expressed an opinioncontary to your point. So I was the calm security officer facing down the loudmouth.

    Huh, regards to the story with the two cops and the guy with three handcuffs: really think about this. Those officers placed themselves in great danger if this guy was able to snap the chain on handcuffs. I knew of a cop whose head got hammered into the concrete because he tried to arrest a belligerent drunk.

  95. Bruce, those were not “cops.” They were deputy sheriffs. You really need to understand the difference. They picked up the guy on a warrant, had a scramble with him and bought him in without killing him. I am not their supervisor, so take it up with the Sheriff or Chief Deputy.

  96. Eric,

    What can I say? It’s not that you have a different opinion. People have differing opinions from me all the time. I just happen to have a lower tolerance for bullshit, but especially authoritarian apologetic bullshit.

    You should learn to read, too. Understanding would be a plus too. I have a mixed martial arts background. That does not mean I train MMA. That means I’ve studied multiple styles. Also, “MMA oh for the sake of…jujitsu is japanese wrestling. Small circle, small frame…” betrays your ignorance. Jujitsu, in any of its forms, is most certainly not “Japanese wrestling” even though it does involve some grappling. The two Japanese MAs that are most like Greco-Roman wrestling are Judo and Sumo; they are all about controlling your opponents center of gravity and pinning them (or in the case of Sumo, getting them to ring out). Jujitsu is a mixed striking/grappling art that focuses on joint manipulation and weapons training and it evolved the way it did because it was designed to train you to fight against armed and armored opponents, namely samurai. Joint techniques and throws are favorable when fighting an armored opponent because many traditional karate strikes are less effective or ineffective against armor. Judo is a direct derivative of jujitsu that is almost all grappling and is more sport than traditional art. “Your statements about joint locks is indicative of someone with little real world experience. I am sorry, but that’s my opinion.” And that would be incorrect like all of your opinions to date in the thread. When I was a younger man, I had quite a bit of real world experience including being a bouncer where joint locks proved quite useful. It’s my real world experience (in addition to my training) that informs me you are an ignorant buffoon in addition to being an authoritarian.

    Like I said earlier, I am indeed showing ignorance here. Unfortunately for you, it’s your ignorance I’m showing and on every topic you’ve brought up.

    “You have some training, and now you think you know better than all those cops.

    Not in the slightest. “All those cops” are your words, not mine. Do I know better than the Park Ranger in this story? Most certainly. Not just from a MA perspective either, but from a legal perspective as well. She would have known better too if she were properly trained and didn’t have an ego problem about having her authority challenged. Her poor judgement and lack of skills has exposed her and her department to legal liability and bad press. As an aside, I also know better than you. You couldn’t fill my teacup even partially. Your pot is empty.

    “Must gall you that they don’t have the training you do, but they get to order you around. ”

    That says more about your authoritarianism than it does about me. It must gall you that you don’t get to order people around even though you so wanted to in Riverside. Please feel free to display your ridiculous ignorance while defending a draconian overreaction by a Park Ranger some more though. That is your 1st Amendment right to free speech in action.

  97. Gary,

    If we can set aside any name calling, maybe we can have a fruitful discussion. Authortarian attitudes are often in the eye of the beholder. I have never used force, if by force you mean physical force or the threat of it, in the line of my current empmployment.

    I read quite a bit. I would prefer to read than deal with the public. Setting limits to freedom is not authortarian, in my opinion: your freedom to extend your fist ends at my nose. You don’t have the freedom to yell fire in a crowded theater. Its also I simply don’t think the use of the taser in this case was over the line. That’s my opinionm if you feel I am wrong, please use a logical argument rather than emotional, subjective statements. Tasers are not perfect, cops have abused it.

    I do feel people can turn a contact with an authority figure into a confrontation, in which, despite whatever training that officer or whatnot, might cause the officer to over react. There are activists who go out of their way to do such a thing.

    I feel that while some people who wear badges are assholes, just because someone wears a badge doesn’t mean they are one. Nor does is it cause to abuse the badge wearer.

    Gary, jujitsu is japanese. Grappling is essentially wrestling. Its not a put down. Do some digging into T’ai Chi Chuan. The concepts in Small Circle Jujitsu are quite similiar. T’ai Chi has been documented to be around for at least 400 years.

    MMA is a specific reference to a training system. If you are a not part of a MMA studio, you are not MMA. Someone who studies various martial arts is not MMA. Please be more clear.

    I am convinced I could stand in front of a room filled with deadly gas, tell people not to go into the room, and people would ignore me and go in and die, simply because I had a badge, and was “telling them what to do”. What an aweful authoritarian jerk I must be, ordering people around. The nerve!

    On the other hand, if I am standing there, ordering people around, sit here! Sit there! Stop talking! Then yes, I must be jerk. I have encountered security people like that. And yes they are very annoying. And yes, you have every right to complain.

  98. “I feel that while some people who wear badges are assholes, just because someone wears a badge doesn’t mean they are one. Nor does is it cause to abuse the badge wearer.”

    Then maybe you should consider not defending assholes like the Park Ranger in this instance simply because they wear a badge, Eric. Tasering someone who isn’t an imminent threat to the officer or others is simply wrong and there is no justification for it. Using a taser – which as others have pointed out can be lethal and indiscriminate – should be reserved for actual threats, not to force compliance over a code violation. The abuse here was from the Park Ranger, both in her authority and her decision to use force. That isn’t an opinion. That’s a fact. She made two bad decisions and in doing so risked potentially serious harm to a civilian and exposed both herself and her employer to legal liability. All because she didn’t know how to handle being disrespected.

    And I know about T’ai Chi. That you apparently don’t know about controlling techniques or how to practically apply them doesn’t speak highly of your seriousness as a student or your instructor though. You demonstrated a failure to grasp basics to any serious study of the martial arts. Learning a MA you cannot apply in real world situations is like not learning one at all. I also know there are dojos that call themselves MMA schools. However, the term mixed martial arts as I used it – “Let’s just call it a mixed martial arts background and leave it at that.” – was an accurate description of my experience without going into detail. I too share your concern about those who study at MMA dojos, meaning specifically those dojos that have sprung up in the wake of the rising popularity of blood sports like Ultimate Fighting. Many of them are training to be little more than street fighters and get none of the discipline that is taught with more traditional MAs, but with a few exceptions, the same thing can be said of just about any dojo in any style. I’ve met students from those “black belt factories” before and they tend to be bullying thugs. That is a failing on the instructors part more so than the student and it’s like giving a child a box of matches. MA knowledge is a tool. And like all tools, it is only as safe as the user and potentially ethical in application as the user was taught.

    Just like a taser.

  99. Gary,

    Thank you for your thoughtful response. Unfortunately, you assume mutch. I was trained in joint locks, and I did take it seriously. I simply have different thoughts on the matter.

    For example: a certain wrist lock has no effect on me. Just a quirk of my anatomy. It feels like a good stretch. If my attack used that on me, both his hands are in use, leaving him open. I would most definately take advantage.

    Some people are very limber. Certain locks have no effect, or take more time to apply. In that moment of uncertainy, you are vulnerable.

    People who are drunk or otherwise anethesized will not respond to pain compliance. While you apply the finger lock, and get no reaction, expect to get a knee to the groin.

    Other jointlocks work great on me, makes me cry and such. But I also have a high pain tolerance. While you are putting the hurt on me, the pain is actually causing an flight or fight response. I will react by becoming enraged, I will no longer “feel” pain.

    Joint locks, pain compliance, therefore, in my view, have limited use. They have a use, usually to distract, or to move to a better lock or position. For example, my grandmaster showed my wife an application for “Repulse the Monkey” that was brillant and elegant. It involved a wrist lock, then moves to an elbow/shoulder lock, then moves to waist/upper body lock, then to a takedown with the opponent’s face on the mat, with their arm twisted behind their back. But I am not going to “try it out” until I have practiced it until it becomes muscle memory. I know too well a halfassed technique can actually cause injury. I know my limitations.

    I was in a push hands match when my opponent applied a finger lock. I still managed to pull free, injuring my finger, but still fully capable of striking him. My point is: joint locks are not an end all, but rather something that leads to something else.

    The point that you, and the other fail to grasp, is that the victim didn’t get tasered for “disprecting the authorita” of the officer. The victim didn’t get tasered for a minor offence. What is failing to be acknowledge, is that the ranger has been granted the power (right or wrong) to detain someone for a variety of reasons. An officer (right or wrong) is given a lot of latitude in that regard.

    Personally, I think once you have to hire police, civility is already lost. I do think police work warps personalities.

    Force and the use of force, is always problematic. Even a joint lock is a use of force. People can have certain physical conditions, that when any restraint technique is applied, could cause injury or death. Remember back in the 70’s when cops were banned from a certain chokehold because african americans were dying when it was applied?

    Trust me when I say the day I can box up my uniforms and my “fake” badge and hand it back to my employer will be a very happy day.

    And, most finally, control is an illusion. Step beyond the false duality of abuser/victim, guilty/innocent, right/wrong, authoritarian/anti-authoritarian. We can no more “control” our abuser than the abuser can “control” the victim. Many victims, given the right circumstamces, can go on to being the abuser. Most abusers have been abused as children. And on and on it goes.

  100. “Tasering someone who isn’t an imminent threat to the officer or others is simply wrong and there is no justification for it.”

    I would remind Gary and Bruce that the essence of this story is as Gene commented above. Any LEO dealing with a violation that is a ticketing offense at best, should not be using deadly force. The guy is an ass, however, being an ass is a common affliction and does not merit the use of force. Worst case scenario for the Ranger is that she’s got a rabid, escaped, leashless dog walker, roaming free. I think society can live with that without collapsing. This Ranger represents more of a threat to society in her authoritarian overreaction.

  101. This helps to move the discussion forward. I think, at this point, what needs to be done, is to, momentarily, put yourself in the ranger’s shoes. You stop an individual to inform them of the new policy. This individual becomes argumentative. He refuses to give his name, etc. At this point we moved beyond citing for a minor offense. Now the ranger becomes suspicious. Why is he being evasive? What does he have to hide? Could this guy be a child molester? Could he be on Megan’s List as a Registered Sex Offender? Is he in the park to stalk a new victim? Is he a rapist?

    In other words, if this man refused to cooperate and starting becoming belligerent, the officer had probable cause to detain him. His walking away and ignoring the Ranger’s directive is why he got tased (if in fact it happened this way. Witness accounts conflict).

    Now, if he cooperated, kept calm, gave his real name, stated his rights without becoming argumentative, and starting walking away, and got tased without a warning being issued, then I would be much more inclined to say this was a case of abuse.

    If in fact this man refused to cooperate, then he was giving the Ranger probable cause. And now it was no longer about the leash law. If the officer told him he was not free to go (he was being detained), warned him of her intention to tase, and called for medical assistance (required under many use of force policies), then she did nothing wrong.

    Since in a democracy we follow rule of law, the facts in the case will be established in court. Whether or not its what really happened is anyone’s guess.

    What I find fascinating is how many people jumped to conclusions and wanted her fired on the spot. That, my friends, is authoritarian thinking.

  102. Recently a Maryland court case refreshed the memory of man who was tasered for a second time while lying unconscious on the cold ground. The wack job that killed this poor soul should never have been given a badge. Most people have never seen the dying process. It is not pleasant especially when it is deliberate. Tasers allow the officers to be the judge and the executioner, there is no jury. I respectfully disagree with your perspective. Emergency rooms are full of victims from egregious actions on their person, we don’t need our law enforcement officers to add to the problems. Mark Davis, MD author of Demons of Democracy

  103. Bruce,

    Interesting pivot, but essentially flawed. There are always potentialities that can be developed to rationalize authoritarian actions. To call those who decry it, authoritarians, is merely a version of a schoolyard taunt rhetorically.

    The facts are as they are. The man could be a monster, but Occam’s Razor indicates he was merely guilty of walking a dog w/o a leash. I’ve actually had to deal with far more volatile situations in my career many times, weaponless. and resolved them correctly without force. To do this you need skills common among many LEO’s.
    This Ranger lacked those skills, which have little to do with one’s sex.

  104. “Alfred Adler provided another perspective, linking the “will to power over others” as a central neurotic trait, usually emerging as aggressive over-compensation for felt and dreaded feelings of inferiority and insignificance. According to this view, the authoritarian needs to maintain control and prove superiority over others is rooted in a worldview populated by enemies and empty of equality, empathy, and mutual benefit.”

    One does not need a badge to be authoritarian; simply to see the police as your enemy…empty of equality, empathy, and mutual benefit.

    Occum’s Razor is stated variously “the simplest answer is best” or “the answer that makes the fewest assumptions is the best, until facts prove otherwise.” One assumption you are overlooking is you are assuming she had no other reason to detain other than to cite him for a minor offense. You also have to assume that she probably contributed to the problem (she may very well have). You also have to assume, that she had other better options (but really, isn’t this 20/20 hindsight?).

    I applaud your ability to diffuse situations “correctly” without using force (you never arrest anyone? You talk them into patrol car to visit the nice cops back at the station for donuts and coffee?). At the clinic I worked in prior to this one, a patient went into the doctor’s office. He saw her anti violence to women poster on the wall, and he just went off. She had done absolutely nothing to provoke him, and now he was yelling and screaming at her. This happened while I was off duty, so I didn’t have to deal with him. Not sure what would have happened if I did respond. If a poster was enough to get him enraged, what would a uniform and badge do?

  105. Kindly quit saying the guy got tasered for walking dogs — that’s a load of crap. Based on news accounts to date, here’s why it went this way: First, it’s got nothing to do with the effin’ dogs — the leash education part seems to have gone OK, as the dogs wound up leashed. The ranger has legal cause to get name, etc., for the record. >>> If the guy had not given a phony name, they would have been all done then, and you’d never hear a thing.<<<

    Lying to a cop gives an officer legal cause to detain you — it's suspicious behavior. (BTW, not legally required to arrest you — wiki "Terry stop" e.g.) You should then reasonably expect an officer to figure out what the hell you're up to — because that's how it goes. Leaving before it's all cleared up generally gives an officer legal cause to arrest you. NPS rangers are authorized to use taser "to effect an arrest."

    BTW Law Enforcement (LE) rangers are issued tasers in many (not all) parks, and are fully qualified Federal law enforcement officers; but most uniformed staff are not LE. As you all know, law re: tasers is in turmoil these days, and there have been some obvious abuses.

    In her shoes I would have let the guy go (you can't win 'em all) — UNLESS there was something seriously not adding up, which has not come to light in this case. Note that she would also have to justify letting the guy go without a "clear." However to me it does not yet look like she broke with promulgated policy or law, just with good judgment.

  106. Richard,

    Thanks so much for that. Since I worked in three national parks, I knew that. For some reason, people don’t want to accept that. Parks such as Grand Canyon South Rim have all kinds of crimes committed. Even gang bangers will travel there, etc.

  107. “Witnesses objected that the force was excessive and said that the ranger refused to respond when confronted over the necessity or reason for the arrest.”

    This is the real reason for the 2nd amendment. So that government officials cannot simply use the force of arms to make themselves above the law. When a uniformed officer is breaking the law, how does a citizen arrest them?

  108. You call the police and report the crime. You can also request to make a citizens arrest. Police carry forms with them for this. This is the exact same procedure followed by security officers. Be prepared though, to state what the law the officer is breaking. Also be aware the citizen can be just as liable for false arrest/false report as the police are.

  109. This is an infuriating story. The man was an older man I believe, and the dogs were lapdogs. She could have killed him. Yes it was overreaction on her part. According to the witnesses she never gave a reason for her stopping him even though he repeatedly asked. Then paramedics had to be called.
    I believe she should be fired. I doubt that she will. I personally will avoid that park. There is a dangerous park ranger running around. Who knows what she’ll do next- run someone over with a jeep? You realize that if she was a dog or a cat and could not control her actions like this park ranger couldn’t control herself that there is a good chance people would be discussing putting the animal down. But here she is getting paid as a public servant by this man’s taxes. She abused her position.
    She has no common sense. She has no sense of proportion. I would not trust her to babysit nor petsit. SFGate did not give her name. The sheriff is protecting her by overcharging the man with crimes. It is typical when they have acted really really dumb as here. I do hope the judge asks for a demonstration of the taser at court at trial and not as other people have mentioned at this website to her mother nor grandmother, but to her. That won’t happen either. She is out of control.

  110. Our land was given away to the United Nations and they call it National Parks, HA
    This is what you should expect from now on and in the future, when they kill you dead for the same offence. Pick a flower, die; walk dog off leash, die and your dog too; catch an animal to eat cause you’re starving, die.
    Can you see how it will end when you meekly kow tow and hand over your gun? Yes, master, I will bend over and let you do to me what you will, because I am nothing; I am a worthless slave, I don’t deserve to have a dog or a life. Get it? Do you see the writing on the wall? They are not going back to the old days, they are introducing you to the ‘new’ way, the only way, the get in your face and beat you to death way. You better learn how to behave like good worthless slaves or you’ll be next.

  111. As Dog is my witness I would’ve jumped that park ranger bitch and beaten her to into a drooling, incontinent lump of flesh if I had witnessed that event.

    I am just so sick of pigs and their so-called non-lethal Tasers being deployed for every cockamamie reason under the sun.

    These freaking Tasers KILL people — despite the opinions of paid-off pathologists. And often. The sentence for the cavalier use of one should be the immediate conversion from animal to vegetable upon the perpetrator. Sentence to be carried out summarily by The People. God damn that bitch!

    Oh well . . . I must be feeling a bit high-strung today.

  112. E. Slovik,

    Is the hat too tight? That can make one a bit high-strung.

    (P.S. I’ve been told by my feline overlords to relay their approval of your Gravatar. The dog says she digs it too, but don’t trust her. She just wants to eat the hat.)

  113. She would have shot you dead, you sexist misogynist. I get so tired of loud mouth petty tyrants like you threatening to beat up the b*tch. Please post your address so someone can tase you and lock you in a cage. You’re a menace to society.

  114. The chapeau does get a bit hottish at times. ;-) Meeeeooowwwwww!

    I just get soooooooooo bent over stories like this and see myself going full-tilt, frontal freakazoid someday. I have a good life and too much to lose — as the saying goes — but I have to wonder, when the day ever comes, if I’ll make like Ralphie on the bully in “The Christmas Story” should I happen to walk by a “bad cop” incident-in-progress. God, I hate bullies. Badge or no badge.

    See y’all in Gitmo.

  115. Now, now, Eric.

    You don’t get to call people petty tyrants and suggest they need to be tased and locked up when you are supporting tasing someone over a code violation which is also the act of a petty tyrant.

    Well, actually you can do that, but you’re just going to get laughed at again for being an authoritarian who can only respond to challenges with violence.

  116. Not likely, Agent Brucie, you fascist ‘tard. Only a fool or a psychopath meets overwhelming force head on.

    “Gee, Officer Beyotch, nice takedown of that perp. Hey, is that blood on your Nikes?” {THWOK SMACK CRACK}”

    Nice example of the Orwellian doublespeak, too. I mean . . . REALLY. Who’s the “petty tyrant”? The fascist bitch with the inferiority complex and the Taser or the fed up citizen ready to take her out and quietly move on.

    Revolutionary War bring back any memories? Maybe you were too busy popping zits in the locker room back in high school?

    Oh, and look me up. I’m at 1060 W. Addison Ave, Chicago, IL. Batter up, Sport!

  117. Slovick,
    Its called a dose of your own medicine. Sometimes you hold up a mirror and you won’t recognize your reflection. If you try to beat up an officer, you stand to get shot. That’s just fact. Getting tasered is much preferable to getting shot. Hating someone for hating makes you a hater. But if I hate you for hating, that makes me full of hate. See where this is going? Men who fantasize about beating up female authority figures, calling them “bitch” usually have unresolved mommy issues.

    The use of force doesn’t make someone a fascist. Acknowledging the reality of authority doesn’t make one a fascist.

    I suggest you read up on actual fascist like benito mussolini and adolf hitler and his ilk. While you are at it, stalin was even better at it, but technically he was a communist, the beliefs were similiar.

    Fantasies of violence usually indicate several things. Usually feelings of inferiority, helplessness, inner rage. Someone like you rationizes their anger by directing to bullies, defending the innocent, etc. Stop accusing other people of being fascists and start looking at your own tendencies to being a fascist.

  118. Fantasies of violence.

    Like the fantasy of violence that it is okay to taser a citizen for a code violation because a Park Ranger didn’t feel like she was being respected.

  119. Gary,

    Trying to live in an authoritarian world is not the same as liking it. Believing one should submit to authority is not the same as being a fascist, just being smart. People on the right have all these fantasies that they are going to hold off the US army or even their local SWAT team with their motly collection of weapons is not just a fanatasy, but suicidal. You Native Americans, your African Americans learned this lesson well. You don’t fight police abuse by lipping off to an officer and calling them pigs. That’s just dumb.

    Besides Gary, I doubt the Ranger had much time to fantasize about tasing you. She was too busy giving you the smack down. That’s just reality. If you feel you are wronged, talk to the press when they knock on your door. Talk to a lawyer. File a civil suit.

    Oh yea, and the people who don’t like the new rules, do something constructive instead of whine and insulting people. Grow up. Call the NPS and talk to them. Investigate. Find out why they have this rule. If you still think its wrong, try to get it changed. This is what normal, rational, healthy, mature people do. It reflects great immaturity to start arguing with the guy who is enforcing the rule. Its not the time nor the place.

    Being tased was probably not just painful, but for a big strapping male studying MA, humiliating as well. Have you examined your feelings in this manner?

    Oh, and for all these people talking about the cop being “disrepected”. Has it occurred to you all that Gary felt he was being “disrespected” and so he felt justified in lying to an LEO? That he was going to teach this fascist a lesson? Can’t you see in some ways, gary mirrors the Ranger? Gary, angry and defiant for being disrespected, gets tased by LEO who is angry and defiant for being disrespected?

    Now, take this narrative, play with it, make some changes, and maybe find out where your own biases might be, how you truly feel about the nature of force and authority.

    The reality is, we are not heading to a police state, its already here. The America I knew died at 9/11 and with the passage of the Patriot Act.

    Be aware that the government compiles a Watch List. Its a secret how a name gets put on it. The government also datamines the internet. With the passage of the NDAA and other bills, americans can be determined to be enemies of the state, arrested and shipped to Gitmo. That’s not fantasy. That’s fact. That’s a whole lot scarier than a Ranger tasing some blowhard because he couldn’t be bothered to put his dogs on a leash. What was so hard about giving her your dl, and just paying the damn fine?

    The next Ranger with a chip on their shoulder might just tase your dogs out of spite. But you sure can feel smug because you told off the Ranger and didn’t have to submit to their authority. Next time, for your dogs sake, don’t play power games with the LEO and taunt them, daring them to arrest you. This is childish, male adolecent behavior. Grow up, and be a responsible pet owner.

  120. I didn’t call you a fascist, Eric.

    However, the person who did seems to have gotten quite a rile out of you.

    Knee jerk much?

    A person’s reactions tell you as much about them as their actions.

    Also, you seem to be under the impression I’m Gary Hesterberg. Like most of your impressions, that too would be incorrect. Here’s a clue.

  121. Wow, Brucie! Yer a sidewalk psychologist, too. You’ve been so busy tapping away at your little keyboard surely it must be time to come upstairs and have some oatmeal “just the way you like it”?

  122. Whoever relies on the Tao in governing men doesn’t try to force issues or defeat enemies by force of arms. For every force there is a counterforce.
    Violence, even well intentioned, always rebounds upon itself.

  123. “Whoever relies on the Tao in governing men doesn’t try to force issues or defeat enemies by force of arms. For every force there is a counterforce. Violence, even well intentioned, always rebounds upon itself.”

    And that is the lesson you have apparently not learned when you defend the person who crossed the line into violence – the Park Ranger. Words, even disrespectful words, are not the equivalent of physical violence. You are defending the force of arms when you excuse the Park Ranger’s actions.

    In the words of Morpheus, “Neo, sooner or later you’re going to realize just as I did that there’s a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.”

    If you’re going to have the reactions of a cartoon character, Neo is a far better role model than Eric Cartman.

  124. Weapons are the tools of violence; all decent men detest them.

    Weapons are the tools of fear;
    A decent man will avoid them
    except in the direst necessity
    and, if compelled, will use them
    only with the utmost restraint.
    Peace is his highest value.
    If the peace has been shattered,
    how can he be content?
    His enemies are not demons,
    but humans beings like himself.
    He doesn’t wish them personal harm.
    Nor does he rejoice in victory
    How could he rejoice in victory
    And delight in the slaughter of men?

    He enters a battle gravely, with sorrow and with great compassion, as if he were attending a funeral.

  125. Lots of assumptions going on here. No one says that the man mouthed off at the officer. He asked a question as to why he was being stopped repeatedly. She refused to answer. He was walking away from the situation. Boy! if walking away from some out of control person who can’t articulate anything is a confrontation.. She is supposed to be teaching people a new rule and she does it without saying a word. What did she expect? Mind reading? Hating a hater does not make you a hater. That is pop psychology. Feeling powerless and getting angry at a nitwit who is abusing authority is a natural human reaction. So if she was toilet training a baby and it peed in its diaper, would she pull out a knife and cut off its private part. No words eh? Being a park ranger means you have to deal with the public like driving a bus. Maybe people choose to be park rangers because they want to get as far away from people as possible. If she was a man maybe she wouldn’t have felt the Napoleonic need to strut her stuff. Why do you assume he showed her no respect for her being a female? Maybe it was because she was acting stupidly and inarticulately and she dissed him by not responding to his legitimate question and maybe if some little wuss of a man who had a similar chip on his shoulder, maybe he would have walked away from him too. I have seen security officers(not police) and I have seen people in patrol cars in private gated communities who are want-to-be-cops who did not make the grade, and they can be little and pompous in their uniform. This took place in the San Francisco Bay Area, the place where people stand there holding candles with tears rolling down their faces when a convicted double murderer and cop killer gets the death sentence, after a trial and jury and appeals. The man who was tased could have died. He was walking his 2 lapdogs in a park. He was not a danger to the public. If you can’t see that this was an over reaction by her and rather than instilling respect for the law it instills profound disrespect by people to the law, then IMHO there is something wrong with you. When people act obnoxious at public meetings when there are 500 people waiting to hear a person speak, and the person is dissing the entire audience and the speaker and the police who are present, and is trying to create an episode and be disruptive and trying to grab the cameras and is asked to leave and refuses, then I do support tasing because nothing else will work. People can make their point and then leave. The students at UC Berkeley who sat down in a group of Occupy UC Berkeley and locked arms and refused to take directions from the police to move on, and were scaring the president of the university, Ok so a boy got tased and went crying to the press and to Facebook, and on cue every Leftist was shocked! in California.
    This woman took the time of the sheriff’s dept and took time from the paramedics and will take time from a judge and citizens who are called to jury duty and that is for the criminal case and then there will be a civil case and another judge and another jury. Think of the amount of resources her little snit fit about whether she was treated with respect or not in the manner in which she would like to be treated will cost the state of California. Then when they arrested the man they probably turned the dogs over to Animal Control so they took up Animal Control officers time and cages. Then there is the cost of the lawyers, the prosecutor paid for by the government i.e. our tax dollars and the money he will have to pay out of pocket for a defense attorney and then for a plaintiff’s attorney and then the defending attorney on our tax dime when they get sued. Don’t we have better things to do and better things to spend time and money on? Have you ever heard the expression “Don’t make a federal case out of something silly?
    And what is the horrible job she had where she is getting paid a salary and benefits and health care and a pension? First of all she has a job. She gets to spend a whole bunch of time in a park in California. Boy that is so much worse than sitting in a cubicles for life- not, or sitting in a park in winter in North Dakota-not. If she was that upset, she could have taken a walk. She was in the perfect location.
    Ok he should have given his real name. They didn’t say what name he gave her.
    What are people supposed to do when they go to that park? Bow down and kiss her shoes as she controls her fiefdom?
    Yes it makes me want to stay at home. But the government has allowed PGE to put in Smart Meters so they can keep tabs on all of us in our own homes, and punish us with higher fees if we do our washing and drying during the daytime when we are awake instead of in the middle of the night, and they have the capability of turning off an appliance of their choice at their whim.They are approving using little drones from Iraq in our neighborhoods, little spy planes to zoom around and take pictures of what we are doing. The government is growing and no one is limiting their power. Can I expect a knock on the door and being tased because I did my drying at the wrong hour? There was an ad for an Audi at 2010’s super bowl about the Enviro police who burst into a home and arrest the owner because he didn’t recycle. I think we are heading in that direction.
    I’m a female and I would like to know as a pertinent fact of the case whether she was having her monthly visitor.
    I worry about the people who have posted here who refer to themselves as carrying a gun with authority in this society who do not understand what is wrong with this story.
    Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Limit the growth of government. Limit the little bureaucrats in your face. Limit more and more people getting power who are not elected and therefore non-responsive, like Obama’s czars. Stop the spending that is causing the need for little bureaucrats to think up ways to raise money and thinking up things they can charge you for, like they tried to do in Monterey, CA where the federal bureaucrats tried to charge a fee for “surfing”. Surfing! This is an infuriating story. I think the photo of Gary Hesterberg on Facebook with his little 10 lb dog is the perp, can’t be sure.
    I hear Rep. Jackie Speier is looking into it. I will write her a thank you note if her website allows it.

  126. Other news reports quoted another witness saying he was arguing with the officer. He then turned away and said “what are you going to do, arrest me?”

    Yahoo news had this account. Also check huffington post. There are at least two witness accounts, and they both contradict each other. I would prefer a suspension of judgement before all the facts are laid out.

  127. «My wife found this posted on another site. I expect the response to be predictable. For those who appreciate gallows humor, enjoy»

    kenan01
    46 Fans
    4 hours ago ( 5:11 PM)
    “I say taze ’em all!” _ Barack Obama

    Taze ’em on an airplane, Taze ’em on a bus, Taze ’em at the grocery store, Taze ’em while they flush.

    Taze ’em if they’re rich, Taze ’em if they’re poor, Taze ’em if they’re homeless, Taze the rich once more.

    TazTaze ’em if they’re paying on their student loans, Taze ’em if they’re talkin’ on their new iPhones.

    Taze ’em in park while they’re walking dogs, Taze ’em like they’re animals , make ’em squeel like hogs.

    Taze ’em in their front yard sitting on the grass, Taze ’em if they’re driving, who cares if they crash?

  128. Bruce Wilson,
    The only way it could be better is if it were set to music.
    Farmer in the dell?

    Rep Jackie Speier does let one email her.

  129. All of you are accusing this officer of tasing this jerk for simply “walking away”. Funny how you seem to immediately side with the citizen even when stating you don’t have all the facts.
    Here are some facts for you:
    The Ranger was notifing the man that unleashed dogs are no longer allowed.
    He told her to f-off.
    She stopped him and attempted to get his information: name and birthday.
    He gave false information, therefore they could not confirm his identify when she called it in (standard proceedure when contact has been made with law enforcement to ensure you aren’t wanted)
    He again tried to leave the scene.
    HE WAS NOT TASED FOR WALKING HIS DOGS OFF A LEASH. He was tased because he provided false information, did not obey a lawful order and attempted to leave the scene.
    This Ranger did nothing wrong.

  130. Also, if this man who as most of you have described him was as sweet as a kitten to this Ranger, WHY DID HE CONTINUE TO WALK AWAY??? I am sorry, but if I was confronted by any type of law enforcement that told me they were going to tase me if I didn’t comply with thier orders I would very definitely follow their commands until the situation was resolved.
    If you would just read the story without previously having made up your minds that this Ranger was out of line you would notice that he seems to be very confrontational himself, otherwise this situation would have probably been very quickly resolved.

  131. Shelly,

    Where did you get your version of the incident?

    I’m re-posting an excerpt from the article that Professor Turley used as the source for his post. It includes a link to the entire article:

    *****
    Witnesses said the use of a stun gun and the arrest seemed excessive for someone walking two small dogs off leash.

    “It was really scary,” said Michelle Babcock, who said she had seen the incident as she and her husband were walking their two border collies. “I just felt so bad for him.”

    Babcock said Hesterberg had repeatedly asked the ranger why he was being detained. She didn’t answer him, Babcock said.

    “He just tried to walk away. She never gave him a reason,” Babcock said.

    The ranger shot Hesterberg in the back with her shock weapon as he walked off, Babcock said.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/01/30/MN921N0LQT.DTL

  132. The issue isn’t confrontational. If she can’t handle confrontation, she needs to be working someplace else, preferably where she has no interaction with the public. The issue is imminent danger to the officer or others; the only standard to apply when using force. The guy wasn’t an imminent threat. He had his citation. He was walking away because Park Ranger Sparky wouldn’t explain to him why she was trying to detain him. Walking away is the antithesis of being a threat. She failed three times. Once by escalating the matter beyond the citation to prove how big her dick was, twice by failing to answer about the nature of the attempted detention (as witnesses stated), and thrice by using her weapon on an unarmed civilian.

  133. http://www.nps.gov/policy/dorders/dorder9.html

    Commissioned employees may use a wide variety of defensive equipment and force options in response to various threats and other enforcement situations. The primary consideration is the timely and effective application of the appropriate level of force required to establish and maintain lawful control. The only justifications for the use of force are:
     To defend self
     To defend others
     To effect an arrest
     To restrain or control violent, threatening, or resistive behavior, or to disperse an unlawful group
    Commissioned employees may use deadly force only when necessary; i.e. when the ranger, special agent or USPP officer has an objectively reasonable belief, in light of the facts and circumstances confronting the ranger, agent or officer, that the subject of such force poses an imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to the ranger, agent or officer, or to another person. If force other than deadly force reasonably appears to be sufficient to accomplish an arrest or otherwise accomplish the law enforcement purpose, that is the preferred level of force. In no instance shall deadly force be utilized unless such use is objectively reasonable under the circumstances. “Deadly force” is the use of any force that is likely to cause death or serious physical injury. Deadly force does not include force that is not likely to cause death or serious physical injury, but unexpectedly results in such death or injury.

  134. Bruce, if you think you can outlast Gene H. in an argument, you have another think coming.

    As for me, I think you are becoming repetitious and I find myself bored. Any new or original thoughts in there?

  135. Scribe,

    Gene made a statement that was false. NPS use of force policy allows for use of force to affect an arrest.

    If one part of an argument can be demonstrated to be false, then the rest is suspect. If Gene can’t get his facts straight, what else is he mistaken about? Isn’t this the standard when a witness is put on the stand to testify?

  136. First of all, it is “effect” not “affect” an arrest. Misuse of those two words is one of my pet grammar peeves.

    Second, the Ranger escalated the situation, not the guy with the dogs.

    Third, like me, Gene has been in the business a heck of a lot longer than you. And you will not live long enough to outlast Gene in an argument. My family and Gene’s family have connections that go back multiple generations and I know him. Take it from me, you will not win an argument with an attorney who went to a Tier One law school, and you will not outlast him. Gene in an argument reminds me of this little guy:

  137. Grammar nazi now are we? If you can’t win an argument, correct the grammar.

    My goal is not to outlast him. It was to expose his prejuidice and ill logical reasoning.

    Tier One means nothing. It simply means he was a heritage student the school accepts so daddy can write out those big checks. Tier One schools consistenty turn out the worst students because if they fail, daddy won’t write that check. Asfter they graduate they get those sweet jobs because of their family “connections” and not have to actually qualify for. His grasp of logic and ability to carry an argument forward is weak. What he has done is try to belittle me on a consistent basis. One does not have to outlast the blowhard lawyer, that’s why we have judges and a jury. Somebody has to graduate at the bottom of the class.

    Gimme a break. Lawyers are the scum of the earth for a good reason. They are much better liers than cops will ever be, and they get paid a whole lot more . In fact I do believe lawyers are even more hated than the low paid security officer.

    A taste of your own medicine.

    I am going to have to google lawyer jokes and have me a good laugh.

    Gawd “lawyers”. Explains everything.

  138. “To defend self” – The Park Ranger was in no danger and did not act in self-defense according to the facts presented.

    “To defend others” – Neither was anyone else in danger.

    “To effect an arrest” – Issuing a ticket for a code violation is the appropriate response, not arrest. This clause is irrelevant to the fact pattern.

    “To restrain or control violent,” – The only violent person here was the Park Ranger. She tasered an old man in the back. This clause is irrelevant to the fact pattern.

    “threatening,” – The only threats made were threats to detain by the Park Ranger with no reason given when asked. Why? So she could show her author-it-tie. This clause is irrelevant to the fact pattern.

    “or resistive behavior,” – The citation was issued. The essential legal transaction was complete. Resistance isn’t the issue. Disrespect and escalation are the issue and it was the Park Ranger who crossed the line.

    “or to disperse an unlawful group” – Not applicable to the situation.

    Thanks for the ammo.

    Also, because a statement is incomplete does not mean it is false, merely incomplete. What I said was factual and there was no lie by omission, merely omission.

    “It was to expose his prejuidice and ill logical reasoning.”

    Good luck with that. Because so far the only thing you’ve exposed is your willingness to be an unquestioning authoritarian and a capacity for contradiction, moving the goal posts, making false equivalences, and equivocating. I have a history here and none of it lends itself to proving either that I’m prejudiced or illogical (I even know how to spell it).

    However, I do have some things I’m prejudiced about.

    I will stipulate I am prejudiced, but it’s just not LE I’m prejudiced against.

    It’s mainly authoritarians and morons I’m prejudiced against. I’m not crazy about bootlickers either. Or people who would gladly violate the rights of others simply to assuage their ego. Or violent people in general. Or people who trample the Constitution and the principles found in the Declaration of Independence. I also don’t like the color yellow. You’ll just have to deal with that. As far as belittling you? No, you made yourself look unimportant. What I’ve done is ridicule you. Why? Because you’re ridiculous. You went hard ridiculous the instant you tried to equate the stress of warfare to the stress of LE work.

    See, Eric, your problem here is you’re a wannabe. You wanted to be a cop, you wanted to have authority, but you didn’t get any. You’ll sure will jump to the defense of one though if it looks like their authority was questioned! You wanted to be a martial artist, but you don’t have the basic knowledge any serious martial arts student should have. Hell, you didn’t even know the difference between controlling, injuring and lethal techniques and that’s something you’re supposed to learn pretty much Day One. You wanted to prove you were right to defend the overreaction of someone with a badge, but you haven’t. What you’ve proven is that without a doubt you are an authoritarian who will go to great lengths to rationalize your stance rather than face the uncomfortable possibility that upon critical examination of your belief you might find out that it is wrong. You wanted to win an argument, but you haven’t. Even when you “bring the facts” as above, you haven’t won once. You want to be taken seriously, but you aren’t. That’s just the way this cookie crumbles.

    You are entitled to your opinion and to express it, however, you are not entitled to have that opinion exposed to critical thought and you’re not free from ridicule when you say something ridiculous. That’s the beauty of free speech.

    Also, I’m the only person in my family to ever go to graduate school let alone law school, my parents didn’t pay for my education and they have no connection with where I went to school other than I went there. I also didn’t finish at the bottom of my class. You, however, clearly have a problem with lawyers.

    And let me start you off with a good lawyer joke:

    What’s black and brown and looks good on an attorney?

    A rottweiler.

    There is also an alternative answer.

    Vanessa Williams.

    I like dogs, but personally, I’d prefer Ms. Williams.

    Just like I like LEOs, but I’d prefer that they not brutalize citizens to make themselves feel better when they think they’ve been disrespected.

    Now what was that you saying about illogic and prejudice?

    ***************
    OS,

    Thanks! I love me some Honey Badgers. :mrgreen:

  139. Bruce, did you know you just invoked Godwin’s Law? In an extended discussion or argument, the first to invoke a Nazi reference loses automatically. I did not spend thirteen years getting a University education to argue with the likes of you. You may have noticed I comment sparingly. The reason for that is I have no time nor energy for superficial and non productive discussion or arguments.

  140. Google “Golden Gate taser” you will find various different articles have stated everything I repeated.

    “Witnesses said the use of a stun gun and the arrest seemed excessive…” Random witnesses don’t get to make this call, we appoint law enforcement to be trained to know when to use a taser.

    It has also been said in other articles that he had given a false name, that being the reason he was being detained. She was attempting to confirm his identity, he did not feel like waiting, too bad for him.

    “If she can’t handle confrontation…” Assuming that she is an average size female and he is an average size male, he is likely larger than her. With the situation already drawing a crowd and no back-up was she to attempt to wrestle this man to the ground because he had already broken 3 laws (not including the off the leash policy), one of them leaving a scene?

    Gene – it never states anywhere that he was given a citation. And fleeing a scene after giving false information to a law enforcement official may not be a threat to her, but it is still breaking 2 seperate laws and how was she to know he was not attempting to leave because he had an outstanding warrent? Witnesses have also said he was being very rude and defiant. Funny how you choose to believe the accounts you want and dismiss the others. If the Ranger was to give her side of the story would you dismiss it just as quickly because you have already decided what is truth and what is not?

    Another thing, a taser is not deadly force. If he was so worried abolut his heart when she pulled the taser he should have stopped walking and complied with the officers request, none of which were unreasonable. Instead he chose to be defiant and unrespective of her requests and walk away. He got his warning, he chose the outcome.

    Let’s put you in this situation: You have asked a citizen to do something, he eventually complies, but he is rude and confrontational. While attempting to verify his identity (which ends up being false, broken law #1), he walks away (broken law #2 and #3) and will not comply with your requests even after warned of possible use of a taser. What is your next move? Let a man after breaking 3 laws, with unconfirmed identity, just walk away?

  141. Gary,

    What you keep consistently ignoring is that the Ranger *was* trying to issue him a citation but he refused to cooperate. He gave a false name. He now has two offenses: violating the leash law, and lying to a Police officer. When she detains him to query further, he decides to leave without being released. Now he has committed his third violation. These were the charges he was charged with by the Ranger.

    Your inability to admit this is indictive of your political agenda, or your inability to follow facts.

    Why is a lawyer like a nuclear weapon? Because when they land nothing functions hundreds of years.

    I like the part where the narrator says “ewe they are so nasty.” Yep. Scavengers will eat pretty much most anything, including rotting dead animals.

  142. Gene, arguing with some people is much like poking a dead body with a stick. Does not hurt the corpse, does not accomplish anything, does not affect the decay process, yet is strangely satisfying.

  143. “What is your next move? Let a man after breaking 3 laws, with unconfirmed identity, just walk away?”

    She couldn’t. She would have been derelict in her duty to let him walk.

    From the California Penal Code:

    148.9 (a) Any person who falsely represents or identifies himself or herself as another person or as a fictitious person to any peace officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, or subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, upon a lawful detention or arrest of the person, either to evade the process of the court, or to evade the proper identification of the person by the investigating officer is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    (b) Any person who falsely represents or identifies himself or herself as another person or as a fictitious person to any other peace officer defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, upon lawful detention or arrest of the person, either to evade the process of the court, or to evade the proper identification of the person by the arresting officer is guilty of a misdemeanor if (1) the false information is given while the peace officer is engaged in the performance of his or her duties as a peace officer and (2) the person providing the false information knows or should have known that the person receiving the information is a peace officer.

    148. (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797) of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

  144. “Random witnesses don’t get to make this call,”

    Actually, in a way they do if what they witness contradicts the official story. Their testimony of the event is relevant to the charges brought before a judge and/or jury and it is up to them to decide the probative value and veracity of said testimony.

    “we appoint law enforcement to be trained to know when to use a taser.”

    Or not. Rep. Jackie Speier has called for an independent investigation into the training PR’s get in re taser use.

    ““If she can’t handle confrontation…” Assuming that she is an average size female and he is an average size male, he is likely larger than her. With the situation already drawing a crowd and no back-up was she to attempt to wrestle this man to the ground because he had already broken 3 laws (not including the off the leash policy), one of them leaving a scene?”

    This begs the question that violence is the only way to defuse a confrontation. As to the size issue, with proper training, size is not a determinative issue in a physical confrontation.

    “Gene – it never states anywhere that he was given a citation.”

    True. I misread a post by another relaying another eye witness account of the event and mispoke. He was, however, cited when arrested. Still, my bad.

    “And fleeing a scene after giving false information to a law enforcement official may not be a threat to her, but it is still breaking 2 seperate laws and how was she to know he was not attempting to leave because he had an outstanding warrent?”

    This is a presumption of guilt. We are still presumed innocent in this country until proven so in a court of law, not on the suspicion of Park Rangers.

    “Witnesses have also said he was being very rude and defiant.”

    So what? Not illegal.

    “Funny how you choose to believe the accounts you want and dismiss the others. If the Ranger was to give her side of the story would you dismiss it just as quickly because you have already decided what is truth and what is not?”

    I haven’t heard the Ranger’s account. I consider all evidence, but I cannot consider evidence I do not have. However, given the Ranger’s vested interest in keeping her job and avoiding a lawsuit, I would weigh her testimony in that light when compared to the testimony of witnesses who have no vested interest.

    “Another thing, a taser is not deadly force.”

    When something kills someone, even if it is considered a “less than lethal weapon”, it is deadly force. According to Amnesty International, between 2001 and 2008 a total of 351 people in the United States died after being shocked by police tasers. Amnesty International has also called on U.S. law enforcement departments to cease using the weapons, pending further safety studies, or to strictly limit their use to a weapon of last resort. A bean bag round is considered “less than lethal”, yet they can kill too if they hit someone just right. Same goes with rubber bullets.

    “If he was so worried abolut his heart when she pulled the taser he should have stopped walking and complied with the officers request, none of which were unreasonable.”

    I would call attempting to detain a citizen without explanation unreasonable.

    “Instead he chose to be defiant and unrespective of her requests and walk away. He got his warning, he chose the outcome.”

    Actually, nowhere does it say he got a warning. Hesterberg told the ranger not to stun him because he had a heart condition before he turned to walk away, according to witness and official accounts. He was then simply tasered in the back as he walked away according to witnesses. But don’t let that stop your rationalization.

    “Let’s put you in this situation: You have asked a citizen to do something, he eventually complies, but he is rude and confrontational.”

    No impact on me. I don’t care if people are rude and/or confrontational.

    “While attempting to verify his identity (which ends up being false, broken law #1),”

    “he walks away (broken law #2 and #3)”

    “and will not comply with your requests even after warned of possible use of a taser.”

    Again, no evidence that a warning was issued. In this situation, I have a radio on my hip. I’m using it already. I follow him and call for backup.

    Or . . .

    I react like a sane person. I let it be and take up the issue with my superiors about better posting the park policies so challenge is less of an issue moving forward. It’s a code violation. It’s not like he was raping and pillaging his way through the park. But what I don’t do is taser the guy who just told me expressly he has a heart condition. Do you realize how much shit this Park Ranger (and her department) would be in if that shock had killed him? Over a code violation? I don’t think you do. His survivors would be looking at a very valid wrongful death suit and those can be very expensive. As it is now, the cost of future litigation (and there will be litigation) far surpasses the revenue generated by the fine.

    It was an overreaction.

  145. “According to Amnesty International, between 2001 and 2008 a total of 351 people in the United States died after being shocked by police tasers.”

    According to the National Organization for Random Statistics, 166,412 people in the United States died after drinking milk. While the ACLU statistic may be true, it doesn’t mean that tasers are lethal. They aren’t.

  146. OS,

    It’s a hobby.

    **************

    Eric,

    Or since this was a new ordinance, my little brown shirt, she could have given him a warning instead of escalating the situation into a physical assault and turning a small fine into expensive litigation. She lost or never had control of the situation to begin with. She had other options than the taser.

  147. Hal,

    lethal \ˈlē-thəl\, adj.,

    1a : of, relating to, or causing death
    b : capable of causing death

    Someone dead. Lethal.

    No one dead. Not lethal.

    Less than lethal does not mean non-lethal.

  148. “The only violent person here was the Park Ranger. She tasered an old man in the back.”

    It would be interesting to find out why people think Mr. Hesterberg is an “old man.” He is 50 years old.

  149. Hal, probably the same people who kept calling Osama bin Laden an “old man,” as if he were this frail octogenarian. ObL was 54.

    Age is relative. A lot depends on how you act and think. People refuse to believe me when I tell them my age. No one ever calls me an old man. Heh.

  150. Hal, regarding Tasers being lethal. According to the manufacturer and the police agencies that adopt them, they are “non-lethal.” However, that does not mean they do not kill. It is just that they are not supposed to kill. In point of fact, they do kill people. There have been a large number of Taser deaths. If the number quoted above is correct, 351 deaths in a seven year period is hardly reflective of a non-lethal weapon.

    Any officer who uses a Taser should be aware of the simple fact the Taser is a potentially lethal weapon and any use of the Taser could result in death. I teach young officers that once you use deadly force and kill someone, be prepared for the fact that life will never be the same again. Once you kill someone, you are changed forever, and unless you are a psychopath, the change is never for the better.

  151. As I said, one can see a photo perhaps of Gary Hesterberg on Facebook. There are 2 in the US and we don’t know if the Facebook page belongs to the one in Calif or the one in Florida. Assuming that is him, he looks old. He has salt and pepper hair. IMHO if he told her he had a heart condition and she tased me in the back anyway, which is what is reported in the news stories, she had murderous intent. She is lucky he did not die. She is lucky she is only looking at being fired. She might have been facing jail time. It goes to show who was off her rocker.

    Someone on this website said that one assumes that everyone is a rapist until their name is found in records and they are clear. That is a ridiculous assumption. Assuming that an older man walking 2 small dogs in a national park is a rapist is not an American thought. That happens to be a French thought. However that is the direction the USA is going, what with Homeland Security deciding to stop cars in case they are carrying a terrorist bomb with no cause whatsoever, and refusing to profile who they might be looking for. They refuse to name the enemy, and then assume that every citizen might be the enemy. If that was on the ranger’s mind, then she is paranoid.

    We could keep going with that assumption. The little chihuahua is actually a killer chihuahua. Shoot now. Ask questions later. The person putting white powder from a little blue or pink or green package into their coffee with cream in a diner could actually be destroying the evidence in a drug case. The woman with 30 children in a school could be a kidnapper, how else to explain the unnatural number of children? If anyone is lacking a sense of humor I am being sarcastic. Context is part of understanding a situation. That is where “common sense” comes in.

    The comments at SFGate who originally reported the story were cute. Since she was trying to “educate” Gary. They ask ” if using a taser is part of education, why don’t teachers have tasers?” Maybe the Monterey Aquarium is missing something considering the number of families it “educates” about fish yearly. Another commenter said there is a shortage of park rangers in the Arctic to count polar bears. Another news report, about Rep. Jackie Speier who is taking an interest in the matter, says the ranger is still at her job, in which case I say “Avoid that park”. She belongs in the same category as the post Thanksgiving shopper who pepper- sprayed fellow customers because they wanted to buy the same Christmas gift she wanted to buy.

  152. The latest I picked up from the Half Moon Bay Review is that in response to the ranger he had immediately leashed his dogs. That she kept him there for 20 minutes without explanation.

    I am not a great supporter of off leash dogs because I worry about the birds, the rabbits, and small mammals, however even given that, what they did to him was stunningly stupid.

    Also I am skeptical of people crying about the birds and the rabbits when the latest fad in parks is to pour concrete over it so that speed bikers can pedal pedal pedal and be a danger not only to birds, rabbits and small mammals but to humans, (adults, children and the elderly), as well.

  153. Gene said:

    “Walking away is the antithesis of being a threat.”

    What more can be said; especially given that the infraction was two small dogs off leash.

  154. “There have been a large number of Taser deaths. If the number quoted above is correct, 351 deaths in a seven year period is hardly reflective of a non-lethal weapon.”

    There have not been a large number of “Taser deaths.” Some people take the Amnesty International report at face value, but it’s deceptive, and the same goes for the Wikipedia entry. Let me explain what I said in a different way: “Everyone who is shot with a Taser will die.” That makes the Taser sound lethal doesn’t it? Well, it is also true that everyone who eats a banana will die. Ban the banana! Also, everyone who drinks milk in the state of Nebraska will die too. What’s in that Nebraska milk, anyway? The reason we can say all that stuff is because everyone who was ever born is going to die. There are many events that happen along the way that can’t be blamed for the person’s death, though. Amnesty International is gleefully pulling the wool over people’s eyes when they relate the story of 1) guy gets shot with Taser, 2) guy dies later, so therefore 3) Taser must have caused the death. The question we need to be asking is not how many people die after being shot with a Taser, because the answer to that question is “everyone does.” The right question is how many people die BECAUSE OF being shot with a Taser. It looks like the answer to that question is “a very small minority, if any.”

    Back in 1995, the ACLU made the accusation that the OC spray (pepper spray) the police were using was causing people to die. This ridiculous allegation was investigated and discovered to be a fabrication. The same result shows up when you examine people who died soon after being shot with a Taser. This report talls the Taser a Conducted Energy Device (CED):

    “Kornblum and Reddy (1991) examined 16 CED-related deaths and reported that in all cases the subjects were behaving in a bizarre or unusual manner and that13 were under the influence of drugs (cocaine, PCP or amphetamine). According to their analysis, death was caused by drug overdoses in 11 cases (68.8%), gunshot wounds in three, an undetermined cause in one, and heart disease plus CED shock on one case. They concluded that the CEDs in and of themselves did not cause death, though a CED exposure may have contributed to one death (Note, however, that in addition to heart disease, this subject had lethal levels of PCP in his system).”

    “In a review of 37 CED-related deaths, Strote and Hutson (2006) found that autopsy reports indicated 20 (54.1%) of the subjects had cardiovascular disease, 29 (78.4%) were under the influence of illegal drugs (primarily stimulants), 28 (75.7%) were given a diagnoses of excited delirium, and 29 (78.4%) of the subjects were restrained by police in some manner. Medical examiners reported CEDs were a possible cause of death in six cases (16.2%) and were a contributory cause in four (10.8%). The authors concluded that a common factor in the deaths was extreme agitation, often accompanied by stimulant drug use and/or preexisting heart disease. Importantly, they note that fatal encounters in which CEDs are used involve subjects already at risk for sudden death from other causes.”

    http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/231176.pdf

    So the normal healthy guy out walking his dogs in the park isn’t going to die when the cop hits him with the Taser probes. I know this firsthand, because I got to take a ride with Mr. Taser too. Taser International headquarters is just a few miles from my house, and I volunteered to be in their research program. They put me on my back on a wrestling mat and hooked me up to the wires, then hit me with the voltage from their new (at the time) shotgun round. The current was traveling between my left shoulder and my left hip, and it was very effective at immobilizing me. They kept it on for 15 seconds rather than the normal 5 seconds, but as soon as they turned it off I was able to sit up and stand up with no ill effects other than a slight muscle fatigue. I thought it would be something like the shock treatment in “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest,” but it wasn’t even close.

    The report also talks about why the Taser is a good thing in terms of preventing injuries. When the suspect isn’t complying with the officer’s commands, and the officer has to lay his hands on the suspect, usually one or both of them is going to get hurt. It could be a career-ending injury for the officer or a litigation-worthy injury for the suspect. Also, the officer has to get really close to the suspect to grab him, and if the suspect has any special skills like martial arts training, he could end up with the officer’s gun in his hand. If the two are evenly matched or the suspect is stronger, during a long fight there will come a time when the exhausted officer realizes he has lost the fight and is at the mercy of the suspect, and the only defense he has left is deadly force – his firearm. The Taser fills the gap between pepper spray and a hollow point pistol round. It’s the closest thing we have to a Star Trek phaser set on stun. The ranger was right to use her Taser in this situation, and I hope the Park Service backs her up.

  155. Let’s ask the question how many people don’t die after being shot with a handgun while we’re at it. Also revisit the meaning of the word “lethal”. Just because less people die from a CED than from a handgun does not change that people died from being tasered. You can’t make up your own definitions, Hal. “Less lethal”, “lethal” and “non-lethal” don’t mean the same thing. A lower probability of death is simply that, but an instrument that causes death is lethal by definition.

    From your cite: “While the above review suggests CEDs are relatively safe when used on healthy at-rest and physiologically stressed subjects, medical researchers caution that CEDs are not risk free (National Institute of Justice, 2008; Vilke & Chan, 2007). Strote & Hutson (2008), for example, point out that CEDs may cause physiologic and metabolic changes that are clinically insignificant in healthy individuals but that could be harmful or even life-threatening in at-risk populations (e.g., obese subjects with heart disease and/or intoxicated on drugs who struggle with police). Additional concerns have been raised regarding secondary injuries and deaths associated with CED exposure. For instance, there have been at least six deaths due to head injuries suffered during falls following CED exposure (Kroll, Calkins, Luceri, Graham, & Heegaard, 2008a).” [emphasis added]

    Risk is risk and tortfeasors take their victims as they find them.

    I’m glad you think an officer is showing good judgement in tasering someone after being informed that person has a heart condition. I also think your criteria for good judgment and mine must be substantially different. To me, violence over a code violation and the risk of incurring legal liability just doesn’t pass muster as good judgement in a situation where there was no indication of imminent harm to anybody. The situation could have and should have been resolved with nothing more dangerous than words.

  156. According to the reports:

    As he lay on the ground on his back and incapable of moving, she was yelling at him to turn over.

    When he could speak while still lying on the ground after being tased he was shouting to passers-by, asking someone to take his dogs home. His first thought was for the well being of his little dogs.

    He has a lawyer who told him not to speak about it.

  157. One of the two little dogs was off leash, a 13 pound dog that he then leashed. There is a good summary on tasars and on park rangers. on the left hand side of the page at
    http://www.hmbreview.com/news/stun-gun-sparks-dog-owner-outrage-against-ggnra/article_02b264dc-4b86-11e1-b619-0019bb2963f4.html?success=1#comment-3a40857c-4b91-11e1-9afe-9f8e11f31311

    What is written at that site is that basically the policy is that everything is at the rangers discretion and judgment, given the situation.

    Referring to other cases in the US regarding tasers, for travelling 12 miles over the speed limit, a police officer in Seattle Washington tased a pregnant woman. The Appeals court ruled that that officer went too far.That was the Federal 9’th Circuit Court of Appeals.

  158. A commenter pointed me to this article: “GGNRA ranger subject of earlier complaint” http://www.hmbreview.com/news/ggnra-ranger-subject-of-earlier-complaint/article_6f4fa7bc-4d57-11e1-8163-0019bb2963f4.html
    “The ranger has been identified by witnesses in both instances as Sarah Cavallaro, and both instances concerned people walking dogs off-leash” in California.
    A man and his wife were walking two springer spaniels.The man complained and felt his complaint fell on deaf ears.
    (There are many people in the US with the same last name and there are several of them with the first name of Sarah in the US, and the humor of it is that one in NYC is a dog lover who wrote a humorous book about dogs “Dogs Have Angels too”.)
    Another commenter gave a telephone number to call to give feedback to the GGNRA: 415-561-4720. (Just passing on the number given.)

  159. It turns out rangers have a whole range of weapons:
    “The proper use of electroshock weapons is left up to each individual ranger. The same is true for all the ranger’s other weapons, including the baton, pepper spray and handgun, said Howard Levitt, GGNRA spokesman.”
    from the Half Moon Bay Review : Mark Noack, writer.

    Also, stun guns can ignite flammable liquids, and possibly flammable material.

    Here is a blurb on the 9’th Court opinions on the use of tasers – sad. In one, in a domestic dispute case, the wife “said something about the need to defuse the situation. The officer responded by tasing” her. They held that the officers had overstepped, but gave them immunity. http://volokh.com/2011/10/17/tasers-and-the-fourth-amendment-now-headed-to-the-supreme-court/ “En Banc Ninth Circuit on When Using a Taser to Subdue A Suspect Counts as “Excessive Force” Under the Fourth Amendment” by Orin Kerr

    Actually I think leaving it to the discretion of the officer is the best thing, but the caveat is that the officer has to have good judgment. Having an officer make stupid decisions is what leads to policies that are bad in the long run for the safety of the public, the safety of the officers, and for the company that makes tasers.

    ———————-

    BTW, talking about overreach by the government “Amendments to FERPA regulations (under the now misnomer Family Educational and Privacy Rights Act ) effective January 8, 2009, and affected by the Patriot Act, and No Child Left Behind, add “biometric record” as a personal identifier. Examples of biometric records include fingerprints, retina and iris patterns, voice prints, DNA sequences, facial characteristics and handwriting. ” as part of student records, k-12 plus colleges and universities; with some good pointers for parents and students. https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs29-education.htm
    In case you don’t know what that means, it means the government is setting the stage for a national DNA bank of records on citizens, who have not committed crimes. They can collect your child’s DNA in kindergarten. In case any crimes are committed during his lifetime they could have computers searching the records for a match. Law enforcement and grand juries can have access to the records with subpoenas.DNA is not equal to 100% clarity as you might imagine. The security of these records, DNA, medical, psychiatric,opinions by teachers, grades, campus security records, will be as secure as what? sealed divorce papers, splashed across newspapers? Life in America is getting very sci-fi’ish.

  160. Under your definitions, Gene, anything can be called “lethal.” Peanut butter is lethal (if you’re allergic). Water is lethal (if you’re surrounded by it without an air supply). Even air is lethal (at high temperature). It is engaging in wordplay to call the Taser a “lethal weapon” when it has no lasting ill effects on all but a tiny minority of suspects. That’s why it is classified as a “less than lethal” weapon for the purposes of the Use of Force Continuum.

    “The situation could have and should have been resolved with nothing more dangerous than words.”

    That was tried and it failed. She told him not to leave several times, but he tried to leave anyway. Initially, the leash law violation was the Probable Cause to stop him and speak to him, At the point where he gave her the fake name, his status changed from an innocent dog walker to a suspect under detention, and he was no longer free to go. At that point the leash violation was simply the precursor, and it had nothing at all to do with the deployment of the Taser. So it would be helpful if people would stop saying that she tased him for having his dog off leash.

    It will be interesting to see what happpens with Mr. Hesterberg. He doesn’t look very happy in his booking photo, but also he doesn’t look like a frail heart patient about to expire. Apparently his ride with Mr. Taser wasn’t lethal, and I suspect that his status as a “heart patient” was just another lie.

    http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/235759/58/Park-ranger-tases-man-walking-dogs-off-leash

  161. It’s not my definition, Hal. It’s what the word lethal means.

    “That was tried and it failed.” And why did it fail? Because Park Ranger My Penis Is Bigger Than Yours was trying to detain a citizen without explanation. It failed because . . . she didn’t have proper training on how to handle the situation.

    Also, I didn’t say she tased him for having the dog off the leash. I said she tased him because she thought she was disrespected, didn’t know how to handle the situation and overreacted.

  162. When people wrote about their experiences with Ranger Sarah Cavallaro, and off-leash dogs, they said they told her to please stop talking to me and treating me like a criminal, and her response was “You are a criminal.” For those of you who do not understand why the rest of us are upset, think of a continuum of conduct from zero to 100. At zero the human is acting like an angel. At 100 the human is doing first degree premeditated murders and more serious felonies. In between zero and 100 are infractions, rules being broken, misdemeanors, minor felonies, and major felonies. Ms Cavallaro sees all actions by humans as in the 100% category and reacts in that way, which is why she was willing to tase an older man in the back who had told her he had a heart condition for having one out of two12 lb dogs off leash in a national park, and he had leashed the second dog when she mentioned it. She is operating from a level of hostility and self-righteousness that we in Western civilization are unaccustomed to seeing. She shares the attitude of the male Taliban in Afghanistan who beat up a woman for showing an ankle as they walk under burkas. When you give a 75% response to a level 8 infraction, you are unfit for your job.It is called being trigger happy. It builds up resentment among the people. It is counter productive. She is mainly protected by living in a very civilized prosperous part of the USA which in itself is prosperous in contrast to the world. In another part of the world, she could have started a gang war and suffered the consequences. The whole attitude of “In my perception, I’ve been dissed and therefore I am entitled to do anything” is a gang attitude. It is why people get killed for wearing a red jersey, or for having glanced in someone’s direction and glanced away.

    Yes he gave a false name. He didn’t have ID which most people don’t have in a state or national park. It is a little white lie. One does not have to make the leap that he is a murderer planning to disappear into the depths of nature. He did not have a 50 pound backpack filled with food and water and a tent. He had little dogs with him. It is not summertime. The temperatures get cold at night in late Jan. He was not a strapping young man of 20. Polly Klaas had not just been kidnapped by a man with salt and pepper hair.There was not an all points bulletin for an older man with salt and pepper hair. He may have been trying to avoid the financial fine. Government is getting more and more into charging fees and fining for anything they can think of, like the federal attempt to charge for surfing in Monterey off a specific federal place. It appears nothing went through Sarah’s alleged mind, other than “I’ve been dissed, and this is a criminal.” We have an animal mind, and we have the mind of the advanced human being. She has gotten into the habit of operating from her animal mind. She thinks like an alligator. She has not practiced using her mind to control her animal brain. This is not a person who should have weapons available to her. People who know her probably know to avoid her. But here we have the public who doesn’t know her. She is not wearing some sort of vest, like a black and yellow striped one, to announce “high alert, this is a dangerous, crazy woman.” In nature, dangerous animals usually have the coloring of stripes to send the signal of danger, like wasps, and poisonous snakes. After booking Gary, they released him. Boy he sure sounds like a dangerous criminal – not.

    On traffic lights we have a green light, we have a yellow light, we have a blinking red light, we have a red light. She operates on red light alert only. She is explosive. She is like a bomb that is ticking that is getting down to the last 5 seconds before explosion. She is like the air raid siren going off that bombs are about to fall.

    She is a woman.Maybe she has children. If so, I feel badly that children have to be raised with a woman like this.

    I personally try to avoid people who I have determined are crazy and dangerous. She falls into that category. I think Gary decided that too. For those of you who are sympathetic to Sarah and say you would do the same thing in her shoes, I don’t trust you either, and don’t want to see you with a gun nor a taser nor pepper spray. I don’t even want to see you behind the wheel of a car. For those of you who don’t think much of this story, please note that it got picked up nationally. There is a reason stories get picked up nationally. That is because it is not business as usual. If Sarah’s boss does not get that message, we should make sure he does get it.

    Sarah also does not understand that her salary is being paid for by taxpaying citizens, like Gary.

    I hope the majority of Americans agree with me. Since we live in the US in 2012 and not in the part of Afghanistan that is run by the authoritarian Taliban we are not accustomed to being treated like this. If we want to keep the US like the US we know,we have to object when someone acts macho behind a badge like this. We do not yet live in a police state, and we need to be invested in keeping it that way. The US is special. Let’s keep it that way. The citizens have to continue to act civilly and and to raise children to act civilly, and the authorities have to control the impulse to authoritarianism. Arrogance and pomposity are weaknesses that need to be combated within an individual.

    In the future give your real name and number and address. Rangers didn’t use to have cellular phones that they could call and be in contact with a big computer and other officers and now they do, so the citizenry has to adapt.
    I also did not know that park rangers carried deadly force, like guns with license to use them. I hope that people in control of training and certification are aware of this and have adjusted. Perhaps the weeding out process for hiring has to be closer to that used by the police. Both the police and the army reject people who do not pass psychological tests.

    Someone who is wacked out is out of wack, which means “out of order, alignment, not in proper condition”. Her name is Sarah.

    The parks are supposed to be a cheap, inexpensive, low key, way to destress and get away from the stress and rush of cars and crowds and computers especially in a bad economy. When I lived in San Francisco, I walked the trail at GGNRA Tennessee Valley Trail in the Marin headlands several times each weekend and loved it.

    People in state/national parks rarely encounter a wild animal. Now Sarah’s contribution is that people have to be more afraid of the park ranger than of wild animals.

  163. Gary Hesterberg is lucky that Ranger Cavallaro did not shoot him dead with a firearm. Comply or Die seems to be the Motto of the NPS.

    I too am a VICTIM OF NPS Ranger Misconduct. I am disabled for life as a result. There are many others whom the Rangers have needlessly injured. I have boxes of evidence of their malfeasance and have detailed court and other records, CHP pursuit, and an audio recording that is a real eye opener where they clearly abuse their legal authority an endangerd hundreds of citizens.

    NPS Rangers think they are Federal Secret Police that answer to no one. They even have the local Law Enforcement Agencies Believing this. NPS Rangers seemingly Comply or Die Policy is very active. More then one individual has been killed trying to leave the scene of petty infractions. Josh Updegraff’s Mother can attest to one such incident: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_07173e8a-b096-11df-a8bb-0017a4a78c22.html

    Richard Greenberg is in prison because he parked a car in Whiskeytown National Park where people do not normally park, but there was no sign to “keep out”. The Whiskeytown Rangers got overly aggressive and initiated an illegal pursuit, breaking several State and Federal Laws. There was no probable cause, and nowhere close to anything requiring that level of use of force on him or endangering the public with a high speed pursuit on a cold, rainy day. I have all of the reports and court papers on this case.

    In my case, I was denied medical attention, my truck was stolen and my girlfriend kidnapped by a park ranger named Gary Panich. To cover this up, Ranger Mike Martin made up lies, told them to other agency personnel as well an insurance adjusters, my finance company and my Attorney. He then had the local police storm my house, terrorizing my family, and arrested me (for a boating accident). I was incarcerated without a charge for several months. This happened in 2003 because of a boating accident where I was tested and proved that I was not under the influence of anything.

    Recently, an Investigator out of the Bay area, Jeff Wasserman, (Cell phone number 415-559-834) was appointed by NPS Director Jon Jarvis to look into the Greenberg case as well as mine. As of this writing, he has not offered any relief to Greenberg or myself, nor has he disciplined the Park Rangers involved. He had the opportunity to correct the internal policies of Park Rangers who abuse their limited authority and to prevent things like tasing someone for minor infractions like having a dog off a leash. Just like Ranger Cavallaro did. I have not heard any news reports stating Ranger Cavallaro had a ticket book or even wrote a ticket. When ranger Cavallaro detained Hesterberg, it was an arrest. She should have advised Hesterberg of this or whatever her intentions were. But again, she, like other NPS Rangers, act like Secret Police and feel they can detain anyone without explanation or accountability.

    Jeff Wasserman talked a good game about Greenberg’s case and mine, but I have not seen any results besides being accused of intentionally driving my new boat (that I loved dearly and worked hard to obtain) into a pole. His alleged “internal investigation” should have produced immediate changes to NPS Law Enforcement Policy. I have included his cell phone number so you can call him and tell him how you feel about Blatant and Obvious misconduct by National Park Service Law Enforcement Rangers.

    To be fair, non-law enforcement park rangers are really cool people. Something happens when they are given guns and virtually No Law Enforcement Training like all other agencies must complete, to become Professional Peace Officers.

    National Park Service Law Enforcement Rangers are normally required to Carry a 1 or 2 Million Dollar Professional Liability Insurance Policy (paid mostly by your tax dollars). I encourage Hesterberg or any of the witnesses who were affected by this appalling event to Sue Ranger Sarah Cavallaro in Federal Court as an individual under 42 U.S.C. § 1983, 28 U.S.C. § 2201 and pursuant to the decision in Bivins v. Six Unknown Agents for the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, 403 U.S. 338 (1971) for damages, actual and punitive.

    Had I done this to another citizen the same way the Rangers did to me, I would be in prison for a long, long time. The Federal Courts are the answer to agencies that have unconstitutional policies and practices and refuse to correct or even acknowledge them.
    I expect my door will be kicked in for writing this and more false charges filed against me. I really don’t care because I live in poverty and can longer perform a job because of my injuries. My hope is that my message gets out there so these things will not ever happen again to another citizen.

    My email address is jnickerson530@gmail.com. Contact me if you want to see court documents, Ranger Reports, affidavits or the Greenberg audio pursuit file emailed back. I welcome any Attorneys or News Media that would assist me in suing the park rangers for my or the Greenberg incidents or to perform an in depth investigation into NPS misconduct. I’ve often wonder why NPS Rangers become Law Enforcement Agents instead of Peace Officers, and by their actions it is my opinion they would probably fail the psych evaluation for real Peace Officer type Agencies.

    Thank you for your time…

  164. Donereallybad,
    My condolences. You didn’t say what state you are in or how long ago this happened. The Statute of Limitations has probably run out for you because the government makes it very short when suing them. Even in cases where they find wrongdoing by the officers, they still give immunity to the officers, it seems. I suggest that you send your posting to Congressperson Jackie Speier who is looking into the training and certification of rangers. She represents San Mateo County in Washington DC. The people in San Mateo are plenty upset and so is Rep Jackie Speier. Gary Hesterberg appears to be in Facebook. You can send him a message. He doesn’t respond because an article said his attorney told him not to say anything. Maybe he can use your files to establish a pattern of misconduct by the NPS and non-responsiveness to complaints.

  165. The man was tased not because he had his dogs off-leash but because he refused to comply with a lawful order. As for the use of force the standard for a police officer is reasonable force to gain compliance. If the man was not doing what the officer(ranger) asked him to do to the officer would have had to use force to get him to comply especially if the man is walking away from the officer.
    I do not expect a female ranger to get in a physical confrontation with a larger male to do her job and gain compliance. I expect the man to get his ass zapped or the officer to use OC spray and/or a baton on him until he complies with orders from law enforcement.
    In the grand scheme of things if the man is refusing to comply with orders the taser saved everyone from walking (or not walking) away with a lot more injuries that would have taken a lot longer to heal.
    Today’s lesson: If a law enforcement officer tells you to do something you better do it or they will have to find a way to make you do it and you probably don’t want that.

  166. Tasers are being misused by law enforcements officials throughout the country. Hundreds of deaths are attributed to their use. There are only selective circumstance in which this electronic weapon should be used and unfortunately this is one more case of misuse. Mark Davis MD, author of Demons of Democracy

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