Last night, the police released this video showing George Zimmerman shortly after he killed an unarmed Florida teen. I discussed the legal significance of the video on Countdown last night.
As I mentioned last night, the video would pose both strategic and tactical problems for a defense. First, the absence of obvious injuries would obviously undermine the claim of a reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death in the use of lethal force. However, it would not be determinative on the question. Zimmerman was treated by paramedics at the scene who could testify that he was indeed bleeding. Moreover, the defense is based on a reasonable fear of such harm. If Zimmerman could convince at least one juror that Martin was the aggressor, he may be able to avoid conviction on this nebulous standard. This might be strengthened by a claim that Martin tried to grab his gun. However, the video shows a Zimmerman who appears unharmed and casual. At a minimum, it seems to contradict accounts that he was a bloody mess at the scene. That would put particular importance on the testimony of the paramedics and officers at the scene.
On a tactical level, my first thought as a criminal defense attorney was that the video could be viewed as admissible in a trial. It seems obviously relevant to the claim of self-defense. Yet, defense counsel (and judges) work hard to avoid jurors seeing a defendant in prison garb or handcuffs. The prejudice from such an image can be immense. This video of Zimmerman in handcuffs after the killing could present such a prejudicial impact, but still be viewed as admissible since the value of the evidence outweighs its prejudicial impact. The video leaves the impression of an immaculate assailment — where an individual fights for his life but shows no obvious injury.
While the 911 call has portions that help and hurt Zimmerman, this video is entirely detrimental to the defense in my opinion. I would not want a jury to see the video as a defense attorney but I would expect a judge to admit it as material to the question of self-defense. That does not mean that I would not try to keep it out. One claim would be that, since paramedics had cleaned him up at the scene, the video is misleading as well as prejudicial. Defense counsel could also point out that there is a reported four-hour delay the fight and this video. Finally, some have noted that one officer appears to check out part of Zimmerman’s head at one point on the tape. between A judge, however, could deny the motion on the ground that the defense can make that point through cross-examination and argument.
In the end, the prosecutor will have to decide on the viability of even a manslaughter claim based on the conflicting accounts of witnesses – and the generous self-defense standard in Florida. Courts have generally given shooters the benefit of doubts on the reasonable fear of grave bodily injury and self-defense. It is possible to use the privilege of self-defense before one is injured. It has also been used successfully in cases of an unarmed alleged assailant.
I still believe that there is sufficient evidence here to sustain a charge. However, as I have previously said, I have great reservations about the effort to pressure the prosecutor through petitions and political pressure — as well as recent irresponsible acts that border on vigilantism. I do not believe in prosecution by plebiscite and thus declined to sign the petition demanding prosecution. This video offers another piece of evidence that I believe supports prosecution. Yet, there remains difficult legal questions about the viability of a charge under the Florida standard and prior case law. The country and justice would be better served by an objective review of such evidence.
We still need to see the forensic evidence that I previously described as well as the statements of some of the witnesses like the paramedics. Many questions remain unanswered like the trajectory of the bullet, any fingerprints on the weapon, the extent of the respective injuries on the men, and the proximity and relative position of the gun when it was fired.
I have pointed out all along that Florida criminal common law, applied to the affirmative defense of “self defense” was clear: it is an issue pleaded and brought up at trial, wherein the defendant has the burden of proof and persuasion.
The stand your ground law of Florida modified the Florida criminal common law to allow the defense to be brought up in pre-trial motions, again with the defendant carrying the burden of proof and persuasion. If the judge denies the self-defense motion, the defendant can still bring it up again before the jury.
That is why the detective requested an arrest warrant for homicide / negligent manslaughter against Zimmerman.
The prosecutor and Chief of Police usurped the authority of the Court, rendering a verdict for Zimmerman.
This is a civil rights crime of the typical sort where police / prosecutors use the ruse of a state law to criminally impinge on a citizen’s civil rights.
They should be prosecuted along with Zimmerman, for violation of federal civil rights.
To me the whole thing hinges on who approached who. If 911 told Zimmerman to NOT follow and he did anyway then HE instigated the incident.
If on the other hand if he DID stop following the kid, and was heading back to his truck, and the teen attacked him….well that’s a whole different story.
But without witnesses, we are only going to get one side of the story. (Unless some piece of evidence can prove Zimmerman was lying.)
Well, theres only one thing let to do – smear the victim. OH wait, they have already started doing that, apparently with the help of the SPD.
I do agree. I too did not sign the petition. As flawed as our justice system can be it is the best we have and should run it’s course. Haste in serious matters seldom serves the public well.
John 1, March 29, 2012 at 8:27 am
To me the whole thing hinges on who approached who. If 911 told Zimmerman to NOT follow and he did anyway then HE instigated the incident.
If on the other hand if he DID stop following the kid, and was heading back to his truck, and the teen attacked him….well that’s a whole different story.
But without witnesses, we are only going to get one side of the story. (Unless some piece of evidence can prove Zimmerman was lying.)
=====================================================
The burden of proof is on the person raising the affirmative defense of self defense (Zimmerman). No one has to disprove their defense, they are the ones that must prove self defense. Doubts go against them, not the victim.
The killer is to be arrested in any case, then bring the self defense case later, in motions and/or at trial.
The Cops appointed themselves as the Court and Jury in this case, usurping the law they are sworn to uphold.
You forget that this all would have been swept under the rug if it weren’t for people coming forward. The good ol boys are protecting their own. (Mr Z’s daddy is a judge you forgot)
Angelica,
Zimmerman’s father was a magistrate–not a judge–in Virginia.
JT:
“As I mentioned last night, the video would pose both strategic and tactical problems for a defense.”
*******************
It does, however, present strategic and tactical advantages for getting to the truth.
Quite frankly, I’m a little surprised by your clinical take on this killing. While the perspectives of defense counsel may be interesting to some, I think it’s everybody’s business to get to the truth here as much for the nation’s sake as the Martin family’s sake. With the obviously erroneous police report, the city manager’s, shall we say, creative statement on what happened, and the police chief’s outright lie to the family combined with the delay caused in identifying the body despite the department’s knowledge of the name and address of the deceased, we have a powder keg with fuse lit. The only thing that will put it out is perceived justice.
Perhaps most importantly we have a community with decades of mistreatment at the hands of Sandford officials feeling their concerns are not our concerns. They have a dead child who cannot speak for himself and whose only crime seems to be going to the convenience store unarmed and walking while black. We also have the perception of favoritism since the defendant (and he’ll be one soon) is the son of a retired Virginia magistrate and clerk of courts who appears to have beaten the system on two violent charges.
This tape is not merely relevant to the facts, but it is a devastating rebuttal to Zimmerman’s central claim that he was assaulted from behind and his head pounded into the concrete even while his nose was broken by this 140 pound 17-year-old. Anyone with eyes can tell that simply didn’t happen as many of us with experience in these matters surmised earlier before the tape broke. Couple that with Zimmerman’s refusal to go to the hospital, the refusal of his counsel to provide any evidence at all that his nose was broken as he abruptly terminated an interview, and you have a picture of a liar being granted immunity for some form of homicide by the prosecutor with his counsel being complicit in the snow job. This is simply something a law enforcement system in a democracy cannot handle and the reason for “pressure” on the prosecutors to file the charges.
I think this case demands more that a dispassionate discussion of tactics and strategies for extricating this apparent zealot from the national mess he’s caused, either through his own criminality or just imprudence. It demands a single-minded and post-haste search for what the system was designed to do: find truth; render justice.
Unfortunately, the self defense as an affirmative defense at trial is not how the FL statute is written. Here is the actual statute:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection
The important section , in this instance, is subsection 2. This is what the SPD is said to rely on. However, now word comes out that the original detective did press for charges and it was the state attorney that denied. Either way, the FL laws pulls this defense out of the courts and leaves it in the hands of the police department. This is a truly troubling rule. It completely subverts the US idea of trial by your peers.
To me the whole thing hinges on who approached who. If 911 told Zimmerman to NOT follow and he did anyway then HE instigated the incident.
If on the other hand if he DID stop following the kid, and was heading back to his truck, and the teen attacked him….well that’s a whole different story.~Dredd
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yup, and how far away from the truck was the scuffle? direction of the victims head? footprints in the scuffley grass? (wet grass will be more likely to lay flat when stepped on…)…so many things yet t come to light…
…and I’m sure it will given that everything was done absolutely by the book and above board….
I could not get the videos to open on this computer. Who is at fault here for the kids death is one issue and who is at fault for the state’s failure to prosecute is separate but equal. Fault for the killing lies with the authorities or entities who deputized Zimmerman as Watch Commander or whatever nominclature is put on it. The media has been employing this term from day one instead of Vigilante. So, what is the basis for him being some entities Neighborhood Watch Commander? If the cops, the town, the state, the property owners association deputized him or annoited him, then they are his superior officers or supervisors and are liable with him under the civil rights statute allowing suit for damages 942 U.S.C. Section 1983). This is not the same as the rubric for criminal liability for these schmucks.
The media should substantiate that he has been lawfully deputized by the cops, city, state as a Neighborhood Watch Commander or call him a Vigilante.
Art a Lawman:
“Haste in serious matters seldom serves the public well.”
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Justice delayed is justice denied.
~William Gladstone
That numeral 9 before the cite for the civil rights statute should be a ( not a 9. in my just posted comment.
I agree on the approach question. Based on the girlfriend’s testimony, she is an earwitness to the scuffle: Trayvon told her somebody was following him, then asked Zimmerman why he was following him, and Zimmerman responded “What are you doing here?”
Based on the 911 call, and this confrontational question, and Trayvon’s apparent fear at being followed, I would conclude (were I on the jury) that Zimmerman chose to follow and confront Trayvon and thus instigated the fight.
Then the “stand your ground” law applies to Trayvon; not Zimmerman. Even if Trayvon swung first (and there is no evidence of that, I am just saying that in that extreme case), swinging first was justified because he was scared for his life. As a juror, even as I believe in the right to fight instead of backing down, I would hang the jury before I would agree that somebody has the right to pick a fight, kill somebody, and then claim they were acting in self defense. Zimmerman should be tried and fried.
@Talking: To my knowledge Zimmerman was not deputized and had no official capacity whatsoever. You can be a Neighborhood Watch Captain simply by calling yourself that. It means nothing, it is like being a psychic advisor or magician or something. Just claim the title and it is yours.
Mr. Zimmerman was driving his personal vehicle…was it clearly marked as a ‘Neighborhood wtch’ vehicle? (they are where I live,,,,they are clerly marked ‘patrol cars’ He was armed….I haven’t found any watch programs that allow being armed…most have instructions to call….only call…when suspicious activity is discovered or perceived…..Trayvon Martin could only see some angry looking guy coming after him….no uniform….redneck vehicle of choice….etc.
http://www.mysuncoast.com/news/local/story/Sarasota-neighborhood-watch-volunteers-must/bZQM5cZSJEenAdMs-he_Mw.cspx
Help me understand…
Let’s assume there was a physical altercation (which may not have happened) – Since Trayvon was the one being followed/stalked by Zimmerman, wouldn’t Trayvon be justified in defending himself under the stand your ground law? Per conversations with his girlfriend, Trayvon was afraid of the guy following him. If the stalker then kills the guy who tries to stand his ground, how can the stalker then claim he was standing his ground?
This seems to be a circular arguement based off a bad law.
Just a short comment about the officer shown in the video apparently examining the prisoner for injuries and then at least twice wiping his hand on his clothes.
I don’t know exactly what it that he was wiping away, but I simply cannot imagine that it was blood.
In these days of HIV and Hepatitis risks, anybody and everybody who has any professional contact in such roles has been drilled, drilled, and drilled again about precautions. If it were blood, the officers would have put on the latex gloves they often carry on their person–and most certainly in their cars–before even touching the guy.
But wiping prisoner blood on their own clothing? Seriously?
Virtually impossible.
At the 50 second mark you can see the officer checking out the back of Zimmerman’s head.
At the 1:06 mark you can see what appears as a dark area on the back of Zimmerman’s head; just below the crown.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/
Why didn’t Professor Turley take note of these things?
It is reported that this video was taken nearly 4 hours after the incident took place. After Zimmerman was allegedly treated on the scene by rescue personnel.
Messpo
Messpo 2, Others 0
Particularly liked your pointing out the publics long awaited need for justice against a suspected corrupt system.
Unfortunatlely this corruption will not disappear with the solution of this one.
What to do?!
Well, PJ, we can accept your speculations or trust our common sense (no blood, no bandaging, no haz mat gloves on the cops, no black eyes, no swelling, no sense of distress or pain, Zimmerman’s “what? me worry” attitude, the cops casual treatment of a homicide suspect) and our lying eyes.
Not really a tough call.
idealist:
Oh, it will collapse soon enough. Zoologists tell us that rats under pressure will always eat their own.
Zoologists tell us that rats under pressure will always eat their own. -mespo
It’ll be a hearty feast. Let the meals begin.
Why Conservatives Are Smearing Trayvon Martin’s Reputation
by Michelle Goldberg Mar 27, 2012
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/26/why-conservatives-are-smearing-trayvon-martin-s-reputation.html
Excerpt:
I’m far from the first to notice the similarities between the way people talk about Martin and the way they talk about rape victims, whose clothes and histories are often subject to scrutiny no matter how cut-and-dried the case seems. Like a rape victim, Martin’s past is being excavated for evidence that he might have provoked the harm done to him. It hardly matters that even if Martin had gotten high every day, it would have had zero relevance; it’s not as if marijuana use is linked to violence. Nor that it’s not unusual for a teenager to come across as obnoxious on Twitter. People were looking for some tenuous justification for treating him as complicit in his own death, and now they’ve found it. (For the record, I was also suspended from high school, though in my case for smoking cigarettes. I trust that should a stranger shoot me in the street, no one will treat this as a mitigating factor.)
On the surface, it’s odd that Martin’s image would become so politicized. No ideological capitulation would be required for conservatives to mourn his death—one can believe in gun rights and still believe that he shouldn’t have been killed. A real NRA fanatic, after all, might make a case that Martin himself should have been armed, so that he could stand his ground against the paranoid man who was stalking him.
Certainly, it’s possible that some unknown evidence will emerge to complicate the current narrative of what happened between Zimmerman and Martin. Zimmerman claims that after he’d been following Martin, the young man attacked him, and according to the Orlando Sentinel, police found him “bleeding from the nose, [with] a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.” No matter how things unfolded, there’s no excuse for those like Spike Lee who have tweeted Zimmeran’s home address; if nothing else, this case should make clear the horror of vigilantism.
But as of right now, some things are not in dispute. Martin was unarmed save for a pack of Skittles and an ice tea. Zimmerman, who repeatedly called the cops when he saw young black men in his gated community, trailed Martin after the police advised him not to. He called Martin either a “coon” or a “goon.” Martin had no documented history of violence. Zimmerman, on the other hand, was previously accused of hitting his ex-fiancé; in response, he said that she was the aggressor, which means he doesn’t deny that there was a physical fight.
So why this desire to paint Martin, rather than the man who shot him, as the guilty party? Partly, of course, it’s just a reaction to his death becoming a cause célèbre on the left—it’s the same sort of impulse that leads some conservatives to delight in “Fry Mumia” T-shirts. Beyond that, though, some on the right are deeply invested in the idea that anti-black racism is no longer much of a problem in the United States, and certainly not a problem on the scale of false accusations of racism. You might call these people anti-anti-racists. They are determined to push back against any narrative that would suggest that a black man has been targeted for the color of his skin.
But as of right now, some things are not in dispute. Martin was unarmed save for a pack of Skittles and an ice tea. Zimmerman, who repeatedly called the cops when he saw young black men in his gated community, trailed Martin after the police advised him not to. He called Martin either a “coon” or a “goon.” Martin had no documented history of violence. Zimmerman, on the other hand, was previously accused of hitting his ex-fiancé; in response, he said that she was the aggressor, which means he doesn’t deny that there was a physical fight.
So why this desire to paint Martin, rather than the man who shot him, as the guilty party? Partly, of course, it’s just a reaction to his death becoming a cause célèbre on the left—it’s the same sort of impulse that leads some conservatives to delight in “Fry Mumia” T-shirts. Beyond that, though, some on the right are deeply invested in the idea that anti-black racism is no longer much of a problem in the United States, and certainly not a problem on the scale of false accusations of racism. You might call these people anti-anti-racists. They are determined to push back against any narrative that would suggest that a black man has been targeted for the color of his skin.
Mespo,
No blood (after treatment by fire/rescue) -not a surprise. Given the resolution of the video, it would be difficult to observe any remnants.
Not bleeding. – No need for gloves.
No black eyes. – resolution insufficient to identify any early onset of black eyes, and insufficient time for pronounced bruising to appear.
Since you want to tell us all what the guy is supposed to look like, why don’t you provide us with something that demonstrates your expertise? Any police, rescue, or trauma experience? I just want to know why anyone should consider you to be an expert on what someone in Zimmerman’s position should look like.
PJ:
I suspect my credentials in this area are about the same as most jurors in Florida. That’s what apologists like you have to worry about. People believe with their eyes and experience and most of us have had a broken nose or black eyes before. Swelling is a universal human trait. We can also imagine our reaction emotionally –even after fours houres, if that’s accurate — if we caused the death of an unarmed teenager and were being led into police headquarters in handcuffs.
Keep clinging to any theory of innocence. You and Zimmerman can write each other about it. I suspect he’ll have 5-10 years of “free time” to accommodate your musings.
I think Jay asks the most critical question. One guy had a gun and a 100 lb.weight/muscle advatage, the other guy had his fists and a bag of Skittles. Regardless of how any scuffle or fistfight started or evolved, the only real danger to Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked by a skinny 17 year old kid. His response was a deliberate execution. The charges against him won’t reflect that, but there is little doubt in my mind that is what happened.
Well, Mespo, you’ve managed to convict and sentence Zimmerman without examining all the evidence, hearing the testimony of all the witnesses (including expert witnesses). Any jury would get to observe the evidence, and hear testimony from witnesses, and expert witnesses. As such, your attempt to portray yourself as a would-be member of the jury, arriving at a verdict is preposterous.
Have you ever had the opportunity to closely observe someone in the hours following a self-defense killing of another?
PJ:
No conviction there PJ. Just my assessment of the evidence at hand. I’m willing to reassess in the face of more persuasive countervailing evidence. Are you?
I don’t know how anyone can say, from that video, that it looks like he has ANY sort of damage to his head or face.
While its not HD, the resolution (and Zimmerman’s close haircut) clearly show us the contours of his head and there are more than enough angles to see that the simply is no swelling anywhere on the back of his head.
If you’ve ever had a cut on your head, you know that it gushes. Paramedics would have had it bandaged and in the 3-4 hours after the shooting prior to him arriving at the station, the bandage would not have gone anywhere.
There are no obvious cuts and certainly no swelling (bumps or bruising) that would come from being struck in the back of the head hard enough to cause bleeding.
As far as his face… What I have repeatedly heard was that he was bleeding from the nose/face and likely had a broken nose…there is simply no evidence to support that from this video.
I have absolutely no problem saying that he certainly does not look like he’s been in a tussle or even touched.
If there was bleeding, why is it not on his shirt? If there was a struggle, why is his shirt not all torn up or even wrinkled?
To me, this is the last bit of evidence that tells me he deserves, at minimum, a manslaughter charge with a hefty prison sentence.
No swelling, No bleeding, No facial swelling, Shirt looks clean, and there’s no obvious signs of struggle (life and death struggle mind you) on his body or clothes…
But of course, I’m not a lawyer. I am, however, finishing up my two weeks of jury duty.
I would think that it would be part of the protocol for the police to take photographs (close-ups) of any obvious injuries, but I’m seeing things from the angle of a forensic nurse in the ER. As I understand it (correct me if I’m wrong), Zimmerman declined to go to the ER but, rather, sought medical assistance the following day. Photos and medical reports would be helpful…
rcampbell,
I see this as an execution by a vigilante racist.
Unarmed Black Veteran Kenneth Chamberlain Shot Dead by NY Police, Yet No Officers Charged
3/29/12
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/29/unarmed_black_veteran_kenneth_chamberlain_shot
Summary:
As the Trayvon Martin case draws national attention, we look at another fatal shooting of an unarmed African-American male that has received far less scrutiny. Kenneth Chamberlain, Sr., a 68 year-old African-American Marine veteran, was fatally shot in November by White Plains, NY, police who responded to a false alarm from his medical alert pendant. The officers hurled racial slurs at Chamberlain, broke down his door, tasered him, and then shot him dead. We’re joined by Chamberlain’s son, Kenneth Chamberlain Jr., and two of his attorneys. One of the attorneys, Mayo Bartlett, questions the police response to the shooting, comparing it to the official story that emerged after George Zimmerman shot the unarmed African-American teenager Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida last month. “It’s very similar to Mr. Zimmerman suggesting that he had a bloody nose, and now you look at the video and that doesn’t appear to be the case,” says Bartlett. “That really makes you question what we’re being told sometimes by government with respect to these types of matters.” Kenneth Chamberlain Jr. struggles through tears to recount his father’s final moments, including the way police officers mocked his father’s past as a Marine. “For them to look at my father that way, (with) no regard for his life, every morning I think about it,” he says.
According to the funeral home personnel, Trayvon’s hands showed no signs of damage, i.e., the bruising, swelling, cuts, that would mean he was hitting Zimmerman. As for defensive injuries, well, you don’t want to get close to someone with a gun.
I have been a member of the Mpls. police reserve and also a neighborhood watch captain (official, not self-appointed). No guns or other weapons are carried and any suspicious behavior requires a phone to the police. Vigilanteism is emphatically discouraged.
That is one sad and disgusting case Elaine! That guy was a hero and was summarily killed by the NYPD.
rafflaw “I see this as an execution by a vigilante racist.”
That’s because you’re a racialist. For you, as long is one party is black, and the other is not, it must be racist.
You’re not a very deep thinker. Are you?
If Zimmerman had a broken nose, there’d be blood on his shirtfront. Doubt very much if the police gave him a clean shirt after he was detained.
So the way it works is, anyone who FEELS threatened, can blow anyone else away with utter impunity. And, like the gunfight at the OK corral, the fastest draw (or the only draw) wins.
It wasn’t Zimmerman who stated that he was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head. It was stated in the police officer’s report as something observed by the police officer.
In addition, the police report indicates that Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket. In the video, Zimmerman is no longer wearing a red jacket.
The officer’s report also indicates that the officer overheard Zimmerman telling the Fire Department personnel that he was yelling for help, but no one responded. The eyewitness account supports this claim of yelling for help on the part of Zimmerman.
Dredd,
There is enough blame to be meted down from JEB to Zimmerman and all the things in between…..
Oddly even rabbits, etc do so with their young. ?????
PJ
Your support of Zimmerman is starting to sound desperate—and rightly so. Nothing in what you or Zimmerman has said justifies killing Trayon Martin who was rightfully standing HIS ground against an armed bully who was openly defying police instructions Nothing. Again, it’s worth mentioning that even if Zimmerman was “…yelling for help…”, it was to save his shame from the embarrassment of getting bested by a skinny UNARMED kid. The witnesses accounts also include statements of a young voice crying loudly and then a shot fired and the crying stopped. The crime is still murder. As despicable as Zimmerman’s actions were, the coverup by the Stanford police is worse and does nothing to dispel the appearance of racial overtones .
rcampbell,
Martin wasn’t standing his ground. When Martin noticed Zimmerman, Martin put his hoodie on.(as reported by Martin’s girlfriend) “He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on”. Only one good reason to put a hoodie on as a result of a man watching him. That would be to hide his identity.
Zimmerman did not “defy” police instructions. He may have continued to follow the suspicious person to see where they went, even though the call taker (not identified as a police officer) told him that they didn’t need him to follow. -Why do you feel a need to distort this issue? Nevermind. I know why.
“it’s worth mentioning that even if Zimmerman was “…yelling for help…”, it was to save his shame from the embarrassment of getting bested by a skinny UNARMED kid.”
17 =kid 18=man Since you find it so important to point out that Martin was a “kid”, albeit a 6’3″ kid, why don’t you tell us the difference between a 6’3″ 17 year old, and one that is 18, or 19, or 20? Surely you can explain the relevance as it pertains to the conflict without relying on the emotional appeal called for by referring to Martin as a “kid”.
“The witnesses accounts also include statements of a young voice crying loudly and then a shot fired and the crying stopped.”
Zimmerman says that voice was his. An eyewitness says that voice was Zimmerman’s. Would Zimmerman have a need to continue calling for help after Martin was down? -Do you know what Zimmerman’s voice sounds like?
You’re a racialist, just like your buddy rafflaw.
PJ,
The “racialist” in this discussion is you and your friend, Zimmerman. Actually, I am a deep thinker, but someone who is programmed to respond to a specific right wing talking point does not care about what the facts actually suggest. How many times did this self proclaimed watchman call 911?
PJ,
So what if Trayvon put his hood over his head. One has to wonder why you think Zimmerman was justified in his killing of Trayvon–the teenager he stalked as he returned to the house where he was staying. One has to wonder why the police chief lied and said there was no probable cause to charge Zimmerman with a crime when the lead investigator wanted him to be arrested and charged with manslaughter.
rafflaw,
Methinks PJ is a deep ditto-head.
“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,” Martin’s friend said told ABC News, in an interview with lawyers asking the questions because the girl is underage. “I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”
Watching, not following, but watching. Did this scare Martin? Martin refused to run, but decided to walk fast. In the direction of Zimmerman, or away from Zimmerman? Did Martin walk fast towards Zimmerman? Did he put his hoodie on and then walk fast at Zimmerman? Apparently Martin had a problem with Zimmerman watching him. By the girlfriend’s account, it was Martin who said “Why are you following me?” To which Zimmerman responded with “What are you doing here?” -How dare Zimmerman question what Martin was doing there? That must have ticked Martin off. Martin, being the big tough 6’3″ teenager, showing how much of a man he was, decided that he was going to teach Zimmerman that he was a man, so he clocked Zimmerman. Unfortunately for Martin, Zimmerman, though Martin had gotten the best of him, and was on top of him “teaching him a lesson” (probably for the benefit of the girlfriend who was listening), made the fatal mistake of deciding that he was going to beat the crap out of a guy who still had the ability to defend himself.
What would be the position of the MSM had Martin put Zimmerman in a coma? Did Zimmerman deserve it? Does a nosy neighbor deserve to be beaten because they had the audacity to question why someone new to the neighborhood was there?
Methinks he represent far too many who we don’t want to consider.
Its the same stuff that helps keep racism alive and happy. !50 years and they’re still fighting to keep the blacks down.
rafflaw,
I call you a “racialist” because you have yet to point out anything about Zimmerman that would support a claim of Zimmerman’s actions being based on race. Further, Zimmerman was a registered Democrat. so you know where you can put your “right wing talking point” crap.
“How many times did this self proclaimed watchman call 911?”
Are you nothing but a fool? Until a physical confrontation took place, there would have been no justification to call 911. 911 is for emergencies. Zimmerman called the non-emergency number to report suspicious activity. That’s what educated people do. A “suspicious person” who is not committing a crime, does not warrant a 911 call. Idiot!
As I said, you’re not a very deep thinker. Your comments prove my point.
PJ,
It appears you have a different opinion from the lead detective in the case who did not believe Zimmerman’s account of what happened on the evening Trayvon was killed.
“Serino said in an affidavit taken on Feb. 26, the night of Martin’s death, that he did not believe Zimmerman’s version that Martin felled him with a single punch from behind and was shot during a violent struggle on the street in Sanford, Fla.”
http://www.newsmax.com/US/Trayvon-Martin-Zimmerman-Florida/2012/03/28/id/434108
You, someone who did not question Zimmerman or witnesses or investigate the case, see things differently. I’ll take the word of the lead detective Chris Serino–not you.
Elaine M.
The fact that Martin was a teenager, or that he was returning to the place where he was staying, has no relevance to Zimmerman’s justified use of deadly force. Of course you already know that, but you want to make sure your emotions can somehow influence the exchange.
“One has to wonder why the police chief lied and said there was no probable cause to charge Zimmerman with a crime when the lead investigator wanted him to be arrested and charged with manslaughter.”
Are you really that ignorant? Did the “lead investigator” make his determination before or after knowing of the eyewitness account corroborating Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense? Did the “lead investigator” make that determination before or after making note of the statutory prohibition of filing such a charge?
“Methinks PJ is a deep ditto-head.”
And I think you’re an emotional idiot. How does that change anything?
PJ,
There was more than one witness.
I don’t spout talking points like you. I read about what has been going on in Florida with regard to the investigation, the chief of police, the prosecutor, etc.
“The fact that Martin was a teenager, or that he was returning to the place where he was staying, has no relevance to Zimmerman’s justified use of deadly force.”
How do you know Zimmerman was justified in his use of deadly force–because he said so?
Trayvon was just walking back to the place where he was staying. He had not committed a crime. A man he didn’t know was shadowing him. That’s how the story starts. I’d be frightened if I were walking home and some man I didn’t know followed me. I wonder what has relevance for you. Anything that makes Trayvon look guilty and Zimmerman look innocent?
Some of the posts on these multiple threads appear to be in defense of Zimmerman but in actuality are attempts to deflect attention from the actions of law enforcement’s handling of this matter.
Some law enforcement personnel who have gotten used to the shadows of “business as usual” are nervously squirming to get law enforcement out of the spotlight and back into those shadows.
Defending Zimmerman casts a lovely shadow.
PJ, the only ‘eyewitness’ GZ has is a 13 year old kid who did not see the whole scenario or the shooting. Pretty thin. TM has many more witnesses with the same thin experience….how about the boy who walked his dog who said that Zimmerman “tripped” and fell and was on the ground by himself shouting?
When we know the bullet trajectory, we will see that GZ shot him from the ground while TM was standing, I would wager.
GZ was afraid to be on the ground, tripping over his own feet scared the hell out of him, enough to pull out his gun and aim….
150 years…..
PJ,
I guess when the facts are against you your reaction is to call me names. Have fun with that, but if Zimmerman was following Martin and felt threatened, why didn’t he call 911? He was already told by the police that they did not want him to follow Martin. The Right wing crap that you are referring to is your comments not Zimmerman. Who wrote the stand your ground law? It certaintly wasn’t progressives.Doesn’t Trayvon have the same Stand your Ground rights as Mr. Zimmerman?
You have been informed by many on this thread of the actual facts, but you continue to ignore those facts and insult myself and others. I did not insult you, nor will I now.
When is someone going to clarify:
1) Can two people both claim self defense? I presume the answer to be no.
2) Who gets to claim self defense, the person that survived? That’s crazy.
Why is Zimmerman even being considered for this statute? We know from his own conversations with the dispatcher that: 1)Trayvon saw Zimmerman. 2) Trayvon ran from Zimmerman and attempt to avoid contact with Zimmerman. 3) We also know from Zimmerman’s own words that he pursued Trayvon.
At this point, how dawg gone difficult is it to make the case that Trayvon was fearful of Zimmerman and that he had reason to be: 1) It was dark. 2) He does not know Zimmerman. 3) Zimmerman outweighs him by 100 pounds. 3) Zimmerman has no authority over Trayvon.
So… Can the legal presumption of fear shift from one person to the next? According to the Florida statute, it appears not:
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.–The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) INITIALLY PROVOKES THE USE OF FORCE AGAINST HIMSELF or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
It is clear that the incident is provoked by Zimmerman. There would have been no interaction at all if Zimmerman had not followed Trayvon. Of course Zimmerman’s “story” addresses the subsequent “UNLESS” component. Yet, it does not say, “unless” you are losing the fight. As a matter of fact, based on the wording of the “unless” component, it really is no longer a “stand your ground” issue. As a matter of face you have to demonstrate a willingness to, in fact, “STAND DOWN”.
My question is this: once you have been established as the aggressor, doesn’t the burden of proof lie on the aggressor to prove that “he desire[d] to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continue[d] or resume[d] the use of force.”
Next. I need to know more about how Zimmerman was carrying his weapon. Was the gun tucked into his pants or did he have a holster? The point is, depending on what kind of holster you have, you cannot hold the weapon on your person while you are in a car. We know that Zimmerman was observing Trayvon from his car. If he doesn’t not have a suitable holster, then that means that when he got out of the car, he had to make a conscious effort the reach for the gun with the intent to pursue Trayvon. You cannot have a more clear cut act of aggression.
Blouise,
You are sooooo right. We can’t save Trayvon, punishing Z is somebody else’s job.
All we can do is expose the rot in our police departments.
Why weren’t for example the cops in the “thin blue lie” thread wired for sound and even mini-video in compulsory helmets???
All the courses in police academy won’t change their corps spirit. Only supervision will. Try to do the best we can is all we can do for Trayvon.
And ourselves.
Exchanging stuff with PJ is meaningless. Better spend the time talking about what productively each can do in their own purvieu would be better.
Excuse the von oben lecture. Not really meant as such, but old habits you know……..
former Turley student 1, March 29, 2012 at 9:04 am
…
This is a truly troubling rule. It completely subverts the US idea of trial by your peers.
=============================================
In other words it is unconstitutional, and using it is a risk the police took in this case.
Again, the feds need to prosecute the prosecutor and the relevant police officers who used it to violate a U.S. citizens federal rights.
id707,
Aiding and Abetting/Accessory – Joe, the bank robber, runs from the bank with loot in hand. He stops at Ben’s apartment and asks him to hide the money. Although Ben had no part in the actual planning or commission of the bank job, in agreeing to hide the money for Joe, knowing it was from a bank job, he is aiding and abetting and thus an accessory. Depending on the nature of any further actions, Ben could also be charged with conspiracy to obstruct justice.
Demanding a thorough investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death of Martin and the actions of police and state officials subsequent to his death is not prosecution by plebiscite unless, of course, one can spin the function of a Grand Jury as plebiscite in nature.
Juries convict police and State officials on misdemeanor charges of lying to a grand jury all the time. Convictions on the more serious felony perjury charge are not as common but do happen. Knowing that full well, police and state officials will think long and hard about the answers they give to a grand jury.
Put these people in front of a grand jury and let’s get to the truth of the matter … the whole truth about the whole matter.
PJ says “It is reported that this video was taken nearly 4 hours after the incident took place.”
OK, except that the timestamps in the full video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WWDNbQUgm4&feature=youtu.be) indicate that Zimmerman was walked through the precinct at about 19:5x (7:5x) time range, which is within an hour of the incident.
Blouise,
“Some of the posts on these multiple threads appear to be in defense of Zimmerman but in actuality are attempts to deflect attention from the actions of law enforcement’s handling of this matter.”
They may also be an attempt to deflect attention away from discussion about the “stand your ground” laws sponsored by the NRA and ALEC.
Miami criminal defense lawyer Kendall Coffey explains how the lack of injuries visible on George Zimmerman in the video may affect the investigation.
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/newsnation/46895491/#46895491
(with what appears to be a closeup of the back of Zimmerman’s head)
Blouise,
Thanks for the lesson. Next time underline the parts I might get on the exam (irrelevant joke). But to the point: Can the Sanford accomplices be offered reduced pleas before the grand jury investigation of the T vs Z case?
Will have to look up grand jury on Wiki.
Elaine and Blouise,
Exclude nothing. It’s I think been discussed here that the active pushback from conservatives on Trayvon’s rep is an attempt to lay down smoke to shield the law, the NRA and primarily ALEC and its handymen legislators.
Wasn’t that up here?
A closeup of what appears to be an injury to the back of the head.
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/newsnation/46895491/#46895491
(with what appears to be a closeup of the back of Zimmerman’s head)
“Miami criminal defense lawyer Kendall Coffey explains how the lack of injuries visible on George Zimmerman in the video may affect the investigation.”
Dredd 1, March 29, 2012 at 2:44 pm
former Turley student 1, March 29, 2012 at 9:04 am
…
This is a truly troubling rule. It completely subverts the US idea of trial by your peers.
===================================
Did JT teach you the meaning of “under color of state law” … ??
There has to be a state law that causes a federal constitutional violation before that phrase has meaning.
This is
a troubling rulean example of a state law upon which federal prosecutions of state actors is predicated.Renewed Civil Rights Coalition Targets ‘Ghostwriters’ of ‘License to Kill’ Laws
John Nichols on March 29, 2012
http://www.thenation.com/blog/167123/renewed-civil-rights-coalition-targets-ghostwriters-license-kill-laws
Excerpt;
The killing of Florida teenager Trayvon Martin has raised old concerns about everything from racial profiling to gun violence. That’s frustrating, as so many Americans had hoped that their country might have bent the arc of history a bit more toward progress.
But the shooting in Sanford, Florida, has done something else. It has focused new attention on the structural supports for legislating on behalf of special-interest, and on the way in which the American Legislative Exchange Council turns bad ideas into bad law.
That has created a new clarity with regard to the need for a pushback against ALEC and its corporate sponsors. And that clarity has renewed a civil rights coalition that will be needed if there is to be any hope for breaking the grip of one-size-fits-all lawmaking and renewing small “d” democracy and sound governance in the states.
The focus of the moment is, of course, on the “Kill at Will” laws—known variously as “Castle Doctrine” and “Stand Your Ground” measures, referred to by former Florida US Attorney Kendall Coffey as “License-to-Kill” laws—that ALEC has been promoting nationally since 2005 in cooperation with the National Rifle Association, the gun manufacturing industry and gun retailers. These laws, which afford immunity to gunmen who shoot unarmed individuals they presume to be threatening, go far beyond the traditional self-defense protections that have been afforded Americans from the founding of the republic. They tie the hands of responsible politice officers and prosecutors. And they create openings for abuses like those that have been highlighted in the aftermath of the Trayvon Martin shooting.
This is appropriate. But it is not an end point for new civil rights campaigners. ALEC has been in the forefront of promoting restrictive Voter ID laws and related measures that open government and democracy groups identify as voter suppression schemes. The group, which links corporate representatives and conservative legislators to develop and promote so-called “model legislation,” has as well pushed measures that undermine public-employee and private-sector unions, threaten public education and remove regulatory protections that are most vital to low-income Americans.
“Addressing the unfolding story of an unarmed, 17-year-old Florida teen recently killed by a neighborhood watch activist who has not been charged with a crime, Fox News host Jon Scott recently wondered out loud whether the Trayvon Martin case really deserved the national media attention it was receiving. While Fox colleague Jim Pinkerton explained that the coverage stemmed from the fact that the press is “always interested in the cute child that gets murdered” and the “black victim of racism,” Scott’s query captured the larger Fox News feeling about the mushrooming Martin report, which was to view the story with a mixture of uncertainty and bafflement. ”
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201203270002
“”Before they convict on national TV and the House floor, how about we have the facts before we go there and bring up racial implications we don’t know exist, especially from a guy who we hear is helping to educate for free minority children?” Hannity shot back.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/sean-hannity-trayvon-martin-media-lawmakers_n_1387575.html
18 U.S.C. § 4. Misprision of Felony — Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years or both.
18 U.S.C. § 241 – Conspiracy against rights, states in relevant part, “[i]f two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State . . . in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; . . . They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both . . . .
18 U.S.C. § 242 – Deprivation of rights under color of law, states in relevant part that, “[w]hoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State . . . to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, . . ., shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both . . . .
18 U.S.C. § 1001. Statements or entries generally (a) Except as otherwise provided in this section whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully – (1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or devise a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
Shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. See: U.S. code 1001 for further information.
Elaine,
Thank you.
“…..But the shooting in Sanford, Florida, has done something else. It has focused new attention on the structural supports for legislating on behalf of special-interest, and on the way in which the American Legislative Exchange Council turns bad ideas into bad law.”
Anybody remember Senator Joseph McCarthy. He taught us some new termns, we innocent Americans in the ’50s.
Like “infiltration”, and many more dangers.
Well infiltration is what ALEC and their paid legislative helpmen have done to our halting democracy. They hide well, the methods have been known for however far back you wish to go.
Their ultmate smoke screen is paid for by Republican and corporate supporters. Their costs too.
To accuse them of civil rights violations is too small a charge.
We should revise treason laws so as to find guilty these “persons”—-as Mitt insists they are—and hang the handymen or corporate boards at the statue of Liberty or the Washington Monument. Or we could honor MLKjr also with some of the executions.
Whereupon, we can offer Congress immunity if they will cooperate or wait for investigations to be included. Let use some of DoJ’s known practices to cooerce the accused.
They are traitors all, quite simply.
Elaine,
“They may also be an attempt to deflect attention away from discussion about the “stand your ground” laws sponsored by the NRA and ALEC.”
That too. The shadow is large enough to hide any number of motives … none of which are a true defense of Zimmerman. If we have learned nothing else on this blog over the years, we have learned to look behind the curtain.
Off Topic:
Campus Conservative Group Disbanded Over ‘White Pride’ Graffiti
By Alex Seitz-Wald on Mar 29, 2012
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/03/29/454990/youth-for-western-civilization-townson/
The Towson University chapter of the conservative student group Youth for Western Civilization (YWC) has lost its campus privileges after some of its members chalked “White Pride” at several locations on the school’s Baltimore campus two weeks ago. The school rescinded the group’s official recognition this week after its faculty adviser, Richard Vatz, a communications professor and conservative blogger, said he no longer wanted to be affiliated with the group. He wrote in a letter to the group:
“I’m sorry, but that is not how impressive and serious conservatives argue their case. I realize that I have been your adviser only nominally, but I cannot in good conscience advise a group that attacks people or groups personally or tactlessly or does not recognize their dignity and the value of dignified argument in the marketplace of ideas. … I am sorry, but that is not how impressive and serious conservatives argue their case.”
Chapter president Matthew Heimbach defended the graffiti, saying, “White pride is no different than gay pride or black pride.” The school’s Black Student Union and others complained, leading to a public meeting on racism attended by 400 students. The group has been extremely controversial since it started, when dozens of students spoke out against granting YWC official status.
YWC is a self-described “right wing youth movement” aimed at fighting “radical multiculturism,” socialism, and immigration, both illegal and legal. While the group is not outwardly white nationalist, its members “frequently participated in racist circles and promoted racist beliefs,” according to the Southern Poverty Law center, which tracks radical groups:
The group has allowed a notorious white supremacist organization to raise funds for it; one of its top officials was arrested in a violent racist attack; and its officials have invited racist extremists to speak and in turn addressed hate groups themselves. At least one YWC member has met with and spoken to right-wing extremist groups overseas.
Heimbach himself is a member of the neo-confederate League of the South and has said the two groups planned to work together because they share “similar principles to us and similar goals.”
But despite the group’s radicalism, it is often allowed into the mainstream conservative fold. It was a co-sponsor of the 2009 College Republican National Convention, where it “received a great response,” and has also co-sponsored the CPAC, the annual conservative gathering in Washington. The group counts former Congressman Tom Tancredo as its “honorary chairman,” and has received funding from the Leadership Institute, which that bills itself as a “training ground” for conservative leaders.
TDS “OK, except that the timestamps in the full video”
I’m glad to see you joined the list of gullible idiots at the Turley blog.
Why would I call you a gullible idiot? Because the time on the video never changes. It remains 19:52 for the entire 6 minutes.
rafflaw,
Just how dim is your bulb?
“but if Zimmerman was following Martin and felt threatened, why didn’t he call 911?”
Zimmerman didn’t claim that he felt “threatened” while following Martin. When did the onset of Zimmerman’s fear for his life begin? Most likely when Martin was on top of him. Would you expect Zimmerman to then call a “time out” so that he could call 911?
I’ll continue to insult you until you can provide something more that the fact that Martin was black, and Zimmerman was not for the basis of you cries of racism. You’re a racialist.
The “stand your ground” law is a distraction. It has no basis of application here. If you were more than a pencil pusher with a JD you would understand that. This wasn’t about standing one’s ground. It’s about the justification of the use of deadly force in order to defend yourself.
Then you want to go to another distraction; “Who wrote the stand your ground law? It certaintly wasn’t progressives.” Of course progressives didn’t write that law. Progressives only write laws that give stuff away. Disagree? Give me an example of the laws written by progressives.
You, and your fellow turleys, don’t provide facts. You provide emotional conditions.
PJ
“Zimmerman didn’t claim that he felt “threatened” while following Martin. When did the onset of Zimmerman’s fear for his life begin? Most likely when Martin was on top of him. Would you expect Zimmerman to then call a “time out” so that he could call 911?”
“The funeral director who prepared Trayvon Martin’s body for burial told a TV anchor that Martin had no injuries to his hands or arms that would indicate a fight had occurred.”
http://www.kctv5.com/story/17286084/trayvon-martins-autopsy-still-under-seal
“…The group has allowed a notorious white supremacist organization to raise funds for it; one of its top officials was arrested in a violent racist attack; and its officials have invited racist extremists to speak and in turn addressed hate groups themselves. At least one YWC member has met with and spoken to right-wing extremist groups overseas…”
Nice people. We got their Swedish buddies in our partliament after 20 years failing. They hold the swing vote but nobody will talk to them.
Here they have about the same values as yours, but not the pedigreed connections. Although wearing ties, they are out of their depth.
Distantly related to skinheads, they are also related to white trash red necks, here feeling threatened at being surpassed by immigrants, not blacks.
They, each November, celebrate Karl the twelfths birthday with demonstrations. The skinheads used to beat up immigrants, until one got shot. Now the police protect them.
Karl XII was a nut who defended Sweden against all enemies, and who went to Turkey to fight the Russians who were and are the greatest worry for Swedes through the centuries. He came back with a Turkish food recipe which often appears every week on cafeteria menus.
My most OT post of the day.
Time to beddie bye.
No PJ,
It remains 19:52 in your mind forever. and ever, and ever
Why couth people like Raffy waste time on you I’ll never understand.
Rafflaw.
Raffig or raffy in Swedish mean raffinerad, ie refined as in taste, not as in sugar.
id707,
No education intended so no exam! I was setting up for my shadow scenario.
Dead-black-kid-walking will continue to happen all over this country if this death is not thoroughly investigated.
Elaine M.
“was shadowing him”
shadowing? What do you mean by “shadowing”? As a retired school teacher, I would expect you to know that words have meaning. I am interested in finding out what the word “shadowing” means to you. What source do you use to define that word? Or is it just a word that makes what Zimmerman was doing seem more intense?
What was the distance between Martin and Zimmerman while he was “shadowing” him?
PJ just crossed the line.
We’ll have to apply the Singing Pig Rule to PJ:
Singing Pig Rule:
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
“PJ just crossed the line.”
Crossed the line?
http://gawker.com/5897485/white-supremacist-hacks-trayvon-martins-email-account-leaks-messages-online
If one does manage to teach a pig to sing … the results are pretty humorous
PJ,
The right wing group ALEC is responsible for pushing the Florida type Stand Your Ground laws. Just who finances ALEC and the Republican legislators who attend their “seminars”?
PJ,
Zimmerman was following Martin so why wouldn’t Martin have justification to use deadly force to defend himself?
A repost:
“eniobob
1, March 29, 2012 at 6:03 pm
PJ
“Zimmerman didn’t claim that he felt “threatened” while following Martin. When did the onset of Zimmerman’s fear for his life begin? Most likely when Martin was on top of him. Would you expect Zimmerman to then call a “time out” so that he could call 911?”
“The funeral director who prepared Trayvon Martin’s body for burial told a TV anchor that Martin had no injuries to his hands or arms that would indicate a fight had occurred.”
http://www.kctv5.com/story/17286084/trayvon-martins-autopsy-still-under-seal“
The Video has people jumping through hoops for those on the right they are saying don’t believe you lying eyes,the 911 tapes they are trying to say don’t believe your lying ears.
And news article today, Sanford Police Dept will immediately arrest anyone bothering city workers. Wow. Boy they sure step it up for the city workers and yet choose not to arrest for cold blooded murder or perform a full blown investigation of a murder.
Try to flesh out the truth and risk immediate arrest. Kill someone and just say it was self defense, no problem.
Wow, according to some of the early comments by PJ, if you’re covering your head with a hoodie while someone watches you, then you’re automatically trying to hide your identity, which is justification to chase you down and confront you…
rafflaw,
I already told you that the Stand You Ground Law is not applicable here. Knowing that, why would you ask me if that law applies to Martin?
I don’t think you bothered to take the time to read and understand the Stand Your Ground Law. Why don’t you do that, and then come back and tell us why you think that law would apply to either party?
Trayvon Martin witness casts doubt on shooter’s self-defense claims
Fox News
March 29, 2012
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/trayvon-martin-witness-casts-doubt-on-shooters-self-defense-claims/
Excerpt:
SANFORD, Fla. – Further doubt emerged Thursday over the circumstances of Florida teen Trayvon Martin’s murder, as the mother of a young witness said her son was “pressured” by police and another onlooker cast doubt on killer George Zimmerman’s claims.
An unnamed witness speaking on CNN’s “Anderson Cooper 360″ said the entirety of the scuffle he saw between the two took place on grass, challenging Zimmerman’s claim that Martin had smashed his head against a sidewalk after punching him in the face — causing him to shoot the 17-year-old dead in self-defense.
In reference to the size difference between 28-year-old Zimmerman and Martin, the witness described the fight as being between a “larger man” and a “boy.” While the witness said he was not able to see who was on top of the other as the two scuffled, he said “there wasn’t a lot of movement” immediately before he heard a gunshot.
Zimmerman “didn’t appear hurt” as he walked away, he added, and he didn’t see any blood on him.
Meanwhile, the mother of a 13-year-old who also witnessed the killing told the New York Daily News that when Sanford police interviewed her son eight days after the incident, they “pressured” him to give more detail than he recalled.
The youngster, Austin Brown, had been referenced by police as having seen Martin on top of Zimmerman during the fight, but his mother, Cheryl, said he saw only one person lying on the grass and could not identify them.
“He kept telling them he couldn’t see anything because it was too dark,” she said. “He said he couldn’t see the race or anything. He never saw a second person.
Trayvon Martin’s Death Puts Florida’s ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law Under New Scrutiny
By NILS KONGSHAUG
March 25, 2012
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-stand-ground-laws-scrutiny-florida-shooting/story?id=15988474#.T3U8lRxVNwc
Excerpt:
Police in Sanford, Fla., have become the target of anger and protest around the country for failing to arrest George Zimmerman after he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
But Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law may have given them little choice.
That law grants immunity to anyone who uses deadly force, inside or outside his home, if he can reasonably claim he was defending himself.
When police arrived at the scene, Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, had grass stains on his back and an injury to his head. He said he’d gotten them fighting Martin off. Recordings of 911calls would later raise questions about his claim of self-defense, but with only one survivor from that deadly encounter, police at the time had only Zimmerman’s story to go by.
Stand Your Ground “really ties law enforcement’s hands,” says Florida law professor Elizabeth Megale, “because immunity is defined so broadly.” Immunity, she says, does not just mean you can’t be prosecuted. It means you can’t be detained.
For defense attorneys, Megale says, Stand Your Ground “is a dream.”
Not surprisingly, Florida State Attorney William Meggs sees it differently. “It is a dream alright, a bad one. It’s a nightmare,” he says.
Florida in 2005 became the first state to pass a Stand Your Ground law. It was backed by the National Rifle Association, supported by legislators from both parties and signed by Gov. Jeb Bush. Twenty other states have followed with similar laws of their own.
The laws expand on the so-called Castle Doctrine, which allow a person to defend himself with deadly force inside his own home (or castle) without first having to retreat. Stand Your Ground eliminates the need to retreat, even outside your own home, so long as you reasonably believe you are in danger.
A subtle change, but a significant one. Combing press reports and state records, The Tampa Bay Times found 130 cases in Florida in which Stand Your Ground was invoked. In more than 70 percent of the cases, someone was killed. But only 28 of the cases went to trial, and only 19 resulted in a guilty verdict.
State Attorney Meggs says because of Stand Your Ground he just lost a case in which a young man was shot to death and the killer went free. “This was a totally unnecessary shooting,” he says. It began with a drunken argument in a bar which was resumed later that night on the side of the road. One man was walking, the other was a passenger in a car. The car stopped, the argument began again, the man on the side of the road leaned into the car window, and was shot to death. The Florida Supreme Court ruled the shooter was “standing his ground.”
PJ,
Do you actually think that I believe your crap? You haven’t produced one iota of evidence that Zimmerman was anything but a vigilante.
I’m impressed by the high level of tolerance shown by most of the commenters in this thread.
One commenter has cast all of the following aspersions:
“You’re not a very deep thinker. Are you?”
“You’re a racialist, just like your buddy rafflaw.”
“Are you nothing but a fool?”
“Idiot!”
“Are you really that ignorant?”
“And I think you’re an emotional idiot.”
“I’m glad to see you joined the list of gullible idiots at the Turley blog.”
“Why would I call you a gullible idiot?”
“Just how dim is your bulb?”
“You’re a racialist.”
“If you were more than a pencil pusher with a JD…”
I don’t have that kind of patience. I don’t see much value in responding to someone who cannot carry on a civil, rational conversation. The commenter needs counseling, but isn’t likely to receive it here.
I commend the rest of you for your intelligent, restrained discourse. I appreciate reading your views on this tragedy.
Ms. Elaine Fox News is a right wing media outlet controlled by Ruppert Murdoch and is not to be trusted.
Bdaman,
I thought PJ might be thrown into a catatonic state after reading that report from Fox News.
Elaine,
Seriously, can not MSNBC get someone with a touch of Texas drawl to read that.. Might be more effective.
Thanks anyway. If only FoxNews had the same message, If only……!
Blouise,
I don’t care what statistics the right runs with on blacks murdering whites.
Considering what the blacks have endured for over 350 years, I’m surprised that they are not killing 100 times more each week.
I’d be dead a long time ago, rioting, if I was black.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/kendrec-mcdade-shooting-p_n_1387033.html?ref=los-angeles&icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D147830
Parents of murdered British students criticise Barack Obama
The parents of two British students murdered in Florida have criticised President Barack Obama for his lack of compassion over their sons’ deaths.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9173820/Parents-of-murdered-British-students-criticise-Barack-Obama.html
Elaine,
That was an amazing video clip from Bashir. Mespo, I have never seen O’Donnell so upset.
Bdaman,
You are so predictable.
Ms. Elaine it’s why he shouldn’t have injected himself in the foray. Now everyone will be saying what about my loved one. I’m surprised he didn’t say the Sanford PD acted stupidly.
Bdaman,
The right-wing Obama haters will find fault with anything he says or does. The President didn’t inject himself into the “foray.” He simply answered a question that was posed to him by a reporter. I have no doubt that he would also have been criticized if he had not responded to the question.
Screwed if you do, tattooed if you don’t.
The right-wing Obama haters.
Do you think he’s lived up to his billing ? I don’t hate the man. I personally don’t like the dissensions he’s making and where he’s taking the country. You want him to lean to the left and personally I liked to have the man a little more to the right.
Decisions Decisions Decisions. That’s what it always boils down to. What to do next. Been busy and just wanted to say ya’ll been great.
PJ,
You crossed the line? Are you feeling good about not defending George? You know, cowards come in every size. Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. That is what I have always heard. Now, everyone is trying him in the media. Don’t wait for any trial whatsoever, are we all lawyering up?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-case-polic_n_1384301.html?ncid=wsc-huffpost-cards-headline
“Chris Serino, the lead detective on the case, expressed doubts around Zimmerman’s account of the shooting, according to ABC News. Serino filed an affidavit on the night of the shooting in which he said that he was unconvinced of Zimmerman’s version of events.
Serino told MSNBC Tuesday night that he was not at liberty to discuss the case, but he feels very encouraged by the new investigation into the shooting, and he was “looking forward to the truth coming out.””
Shall we guess who is lying? Of course, it’s not the guy who had his gun in a penis holster, cocked and ready. (no pun intended).
Now’s the time to see what the right’s next move will be. Who do they blame first? Always got to have someone to blame. Who guesses it’ll be Obama for something. And then the circus boys can start again. Shame the lady dropped out. She was in Sarah’s class. Take that as you wiill.
“Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. That is what I have always heard. ” (VenganceNow)
“Revert me naive!”
Are you saying a honky is not entitled to a fair trial?
Or do you prefer the term cracker?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/opinion/the-gated-community-mentality.html?_r=1
Op-Ed Contributor
The Gated Community Mentality
by RICH BENJAMIN
March 29, 2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/opinion/the-gated-community-mentality.html?_r=1
AS a black man who has been mugged at gunpoint by a black teenager late at night, I am not naïve: I know firsthand the awkward conundrums surrounding race, fear and crime. Trayvon Martin’s killing at the hands of George Zimmerman baffles this nation. While the youth’s supporters declare in solidarity “We are all Trayvon,” the question is raised, to what extent is the United States also all George Zimmerman?
Under assault, I didn’t dream of harming my teenage assailant, let alone taking his life.
Mr. Zimmerman reacted very differently, taking out his handgun and shooting the youth in cold blood.
What gives?
Welcome to gate-minded America.
From 2007 to 2009, I traveled 27,000 miles, living in predominantly white gated communities across this country to research a book. I threw myself into these communities with gusto — no Howard Johnson or Motel 6 for me. I borrowed or rented residents’ homes. From the red-rock canyons of southern Utah to the Waffle-House-pocked exurbs of north Georgia, I lived in gated communities as a black man, with a youthful style and face, to interview and observe residents.
The perverse, pervasive real-estate speak I heard in these communities champions a bunker mentality. Residents often expressed a fear of crime that was exaggerated beyond the actual criminal threat, as documented by their police department’s statistics. Since you can say “gated community” only so many times, developers hatched an array of Orwellian euphemisms to appease residents’ anxieties: “master-planned community,” “landscaped resort community,” “secluded intimate neighborhood.”
No matter the label, the product is the same: self-contained, conservative and overzealous in its demands for “safety.” Gated communities churn a vicious cycle by attracting like-minded residents who seek shelter from outsiders and whose physical seclusion then worsens paranoid groupthink against outsiders. These bunker communities remind me of those Matryoshka wooden dolls. A similar-object-within-a-similar-object serves as shelter; from community to subdivision to house, each unit relies on staggered forms of security and comfort, including town authorities, zoning practices, private security systems and personal firearms.
Residents’ palpable satisfaction with their communities’ virtue and their evident readiness to trumpet alarm at any given “threat” create a peculiar atmosphere — an unholy alliance of smugness and insecurity. In this us-versus-them mental landscape, them refers to new immigrants, blacks, young people, renters, non-property-owners and people perceived to be poor.
Mr. Zimmerman’s gated community, a 260-unit housing complex, sits in a racially mixed suburb of Orlando, Fla. Mr. Martin’s “suspicious” profile amounted to more than his black skin. He was profiled as young, loitering, non-property-owning and poor. Based on their actions, police officers clearly assumed Mr. Zimmerman was the private property owner and Mr. Martin the dangerous interloper. After all, why did the police treat Mr. Martin like a criminal, instead of Mr. Zimmerman, his assailant? Why was the black corpse tested for drugs and alcohol, but the living perpetrator wasn’t?
Across the United States, more than 10 million housing units are in gated communities, where access is “secured with walls or fences,” according to 2009 Census Bureau data. Roughly 10 percent of the occupied homes in this country are in gated communities, though that figure is misleadingly low because it doesn’t include temporarily vacant homes or second homes. Between 2001 and 2009, the United States saw a 53 percent growth in occupied housing units nestled in gated communities.
Another related trend contributed to this shooting: our increasingly privatized criminal justice system. The United States is becoming even more enamored with private ownership and decision making around policing, prisons and probation. Private companies champion private “security” services, alongside the private building and managing of prisons.
“Stand Your Ground” or “Shoot First” laws like Florida’s expand the so-called castle doctrine, which permits the use of deadly force for self-defense in one’s home, as long as the homeowner can prove deadly force was reasonable. Thirty-two states now permit expanded rights to self-defense.
In essence, laws nationwide sanction reckless vigilantism in the form of self-defense claims. A bunker mentality is codified by law.
Those reducing this tragedy to racism miss a more accurate and painful picture. Why is a child dead? The rise of “secure,” gated communities, private cops, private roads, private parks, private schools, private playgrounds — private, private, private —exacerbates biased treatment against the young, the colored and the presumably poor.
Rich Benjamin is the author of “Searching for Whitopia: An Improbable Journey to the Heart of White America” and a senior fellow at Demos, a nonpartisan research center.
VenganceNow — There’s a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like an idiot. You need better bait if you want to go fishing on this blog.
From the article..
“This might be strengthened by a claim that Martin tried to grab his gun.”
Let me get this straight.. Zimmerman (may have) felt threatened because a guy he was threatening with a gun tried to grab it..
Got you..
“Mommy, mommy, it all started when he tried to hit me back”..
From John..
“To me the whole thing hinges on who approached who. If 911 told Zimmerman to NOT follow and he did anyway then HE instigated the incident.”
Strangely enough, one of the legislators who crafted the SYG law said essentially the same thing.. go figure.
enjoy
bobby
It gets boring fishing with racist swine. So, you accept the fact that a honky is not entitled to a fair trial! Figured you for a racist.
Wonder why when the arguments don’t work the swear words come from.
Seems always to happen. It’s just the arguments are finished sooner with some than others.
What do we give Vengance? 0–10?
Bdaman,
I understand the President ate 3 meals yesterday, the nerve of that man!
Vengie,
I wouldn’t call you and Zimmerman honkies or crackers, just schmucks.
VenganceNow,
“It gets boring fishing with racist swine.”
Then stop hanging out with your friends.
I just do not understand why youse guys don’t think George is not entitled to a fair trial. The media has convicted him, which is very unfortunate. I do not like fish anyway, I love pork.
There is a Rican bakery in NYC called Portos that is to die for.
VN
That’s the only sensible thing today.
Googling Porto’s and most other food things show why you people are overweight/obese/gross. But if I lived there, I would gross out too..
Love good bakery goods. But Porto’s seems to offer other goodies like pork sandwiches. OMG, I’m hungry and just ate supper.
Seems it was a west coast thing, but nyc branch offers genuine cheesecake.
That’s a copout to local tastes. Echhhh!
My niece in NC has a favo tapas restaurant in Asheville. Just reading the menu gives an eargasm. You don’t even find that stuff in Madrid.
And in Stockholm, you can go hang yourself.
Why don’t you stick to food and forget the rest. Munch, munch.
VN
George is entitled to a fair trial. But some of the cops were going to give him a write-off. So we got our B/W sensation. to finally pushback on DIY murder when feeling like it.
Now open your mind and read that again at least 5 times. I know you are in aggression defense mode now. Cool off first.
VenganceNow:
“I just do not understand why youse guys don’t think George is not entitled to a fair trial. The media has convicted him, which is very unfortunate. I do not like fish anyway, I love pork.
There is a Rican bakery in NYC called Portos that is to die for.”
**************************
Your plea for due process for Zimmerman is truly touching. Now maybe you could explain why Trayvon couldn’t get the same favor from Zimmerman before he fired at least one fatal shot into his chest. That unarmed teenager was executed without indictment, trial, or chance to speak for himself. And we have only armed busybody, wannabe cop, George’s Zimmerman’s word that it was justified. That’s not ehough for me and hopefully for prosecutors or grand jurors.
Idiocy707,
Sure. You dont know a damn thing about NYC. But youse know everything about everything else.
Zimmerman has not been charged at all. But, you have convicted him.
Excellent response Mespo. It is amazing that the person best able to testify as to the circumstances of that night is unable to testify because Zimmerman killed him. Zimmerman will get a fair trial, if he is ever charged.
Elaine,
Hilarious!
Convicted him? Where did I say that? Was talking about the DIY murder law and the cops being jury and judge. Do you think that’s fair?
As for knowing a lot. Nothing hinders you doing the same.
Did you buy the cheesecake? Could of guessed it. You go to Coney Island and live in Brooklyn with youse buddy too???? What an act.
Don’t make us think you can’t spell. Get a better act Vinky.
Martin’s voice shouts loudly from the grayed.
VenganceNow needs a hearing-aid.
(and spell check)
OT:
Keith Olbermann Fired By Current TV; Replaced By Eliot Spitzer
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/keith-olbermann-out-current-eliot-spitzer_n_1392513.html
Just read Sean Hannity’s interview with Martin attorney, Daryl Parks,Esq. When even right-wing flak Sean Hannity agrees that Trayvon’s school suspensions are totally irrelevant and that Zimmerman had no business exiting that vehicle after being warned off by the police, you know we reached about as much a consensus as we can in this country. Here’s Sean’s take on Fox News:
HANNITY: It’s irrelevant to me about the school suspensions. That’s not relevant to me at all in any way. And I would just like, I would say, the allegations of racism against Mr. Zimmerman, you have a Hispanic- American, who apparently according to reports, tutored young African- Americans on the weekend. He does not seem to fit the profile of somebody that has racial antipathy, does he?
PARKS: No, let me say this to you, sir. I want to say this to all of America. We are not making this a racial issue. I think that he was profiled, yes. We are past the issue. We all know that we have an issue that we all Americans are dealing with, most African-Americans accept that that is a challenge in life and we move on in life. In this situation, though, I think you have to give some credence to the girlfriend’s testimony.
HANNITY: I agree. That’s part of the puzzle.
PARKS: She was on the phone with him. We have the phone records, is starts from 7:12 to 7:16. At 7:17, the Sanford Police Department is on the scene. Mr. Zimmerman should have stayed in the vehicle like the authorities told him to do.
HANNITY: I agree with that part.
PARKS: If he stayed in the vehicle, that would have never happened.
HANNITY: I agree. When the dispatch said that we don’t need to you do that, I agree, he should have retreated. I have said that many times.
The only question that still remains and is open is whether or not he was walking back to his car and whether or not Trayvon confronted him or he confronted Trayvon. And we don’t know. And we don’t know whether.
PARKS: Yes, we do.
HANNITY: Wait a minute. We don’t know who screamed on the tape that we hear. And we don’t for sure — both sides are claiming that it was — one side says Trayvon, one side says Mr. Zimmerman. We don’t know who was on top of who. The eyewitness from that night said it was Trayvon on top of Mr. Zimmerman. You’re claiming it was just the opposite with a brand-new witness that came out just tonight.
PARKS: Well, let me ask you this here.
HANNITY: Yes.
PARKS: If we go to the 911 tapes, the 911 tapes are very clear on Mr. Zimmerman’s words that he was following Trayvon. You agree with that, correct?
HANNITY: Oh, yes, absolutely.
PARKS: OK.
HANNITY: You can hear him out of breath.
PARKS: That makes him the instigator. And in America, if you instigate an altercation of any sort, right? When in our life, that if you instigate a fight with someone, you happen to be losing the fight –
HANNITY: Oh, following somebody that you think is that maybe a suspect because there is a rash of crimes in your neighborhood doesn’t make you an instigator of a fight.
PARKS: But also, he never properly identified himself. He has no badge. He’s a guy walking around with a 9-millimeter. He’s a vigilante.
HANNITY: All right. Well, we are going to find out in time. The only I do hope is that it’s fully investigated and I hope that people, including Congress members stop rushing to judgment. There’s both sides here. And neither, you and I were there nor do we know the answers. And I think, over time, hopefully, we will get to the truth and our thoughts and prayers are with the family. Thank you for being with us.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-family-attorney-george-zimmerman-vigilante?page=2#ixzz1qdpEddnA
Whats wrong with this law?
Trayvon Martin’s Death Leads To Closer Examinations Of Other Shootings Nationwide
By Adam Peck on Mar 30, 2012
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/30/455647/trayvon-martins-death-leads-to-closer-examinations-of-other-shootings-nationwide/
well, between this;
“I know you are in aggression defense mode now. Cool off first.”
and this;
” Martin’s voice shouts loudly from the grayed.
VenganceNow needs a hearing-aid.”
I feel better and my confidence made
[thank you Idealist707 and Dave Mann]
It’s not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say
Folks, I have heard that two out of the three police reports filed were filed between 10 and 24 hours AFTER the event, and that one of them mentioned Martin BY NAME. Does anyone have the scoop on this? Confirm or deny?
Thanks.
Independent eyewitness comes forward to say no blood or sign of injury on Zimmerman immediately after the fatal struggle:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/29/1078226/-Witness-interviewed-by-CNN-s-Anderson-Cooper-adds-to-doubts-on-George-Zimmerman-s-claims
Just saw a breaking news story. The special prosecutor in the Zimmerman case says she will not be presenting to a Grand Jury. Not sure what this means in the grand scheme of things, but suspect she will file charges without taking it to the Grand Jury.