School Nurse Reportedly Refuses To Allow Student To Use Inhaler During Asthma Attack Because He Did Not Have Signed Parental Form

School officials in Florida’s Volusia County School are insisting that a school nurse was perfectly correct in refusing to give a boy his inhaler during an asthma attack because a medical release form was not signed by a parent. By the time the mother arrived at the school, her son was passed out on the floor. She says that the nurse watched as her son, Michael Rudi, 17, collapsed.


The school dean found the inhaler in its original packaging with the student’s name and directions for its use. He seized the inhaler because of the absence of a form. When the boy began to have trouble breathing the mother was called to come into school. It is not clear why, if they could reach the mother, they could not get telephonic approval. More importantly, with the boy having breathing problems, the school insisted that it was still more important to get a form signed than help the child. Rudi is quoted as saying “[a]s soon as we opened up the door, we saw my son collapsing against the wall on the floor of the nurse’s office while she was standing in the window of the locked door looking down at my son, who was in full-blown asthma attack.”
Faced with this horrific situation, the Director of Student Health Services, Cheryl Selesky, still insists it was the parents’ fault for not being sure a new signed form was on file this year. There may have been a failure in supplying such a form, but that pales in comparison to the callous and irresponsible attitude to this teenager who was in obvious medical need. The school was previously made aware of the boy’s medical condition and yet stood there with an inhaler and an unsigned form in hand . . . but concluded the form was the more pressing matter.

It is also not clear why 911 was not called. The parents have filed child endangerment charges against the nurse. They also may want to consider a civil lawsuit against the school. Since the school appears primarily motivated by legal rather than medical considerations, a torts action may serve to concentrate the mind of officials.

Source: Orlando

279 thoughts on “School Nurse Reportedly Refuses To Allow Student To Use Inhaler During Asthma Attack Because He Did Not Have Signed Parental Form

  1. Sadly, because of the society we live in, a lot of common sense has been squeezed out of our public institutions. School particularly have been the target of multiple law suits, often for doing AND not doing something. Many teachers and administrators have tried to protect themselves through iron clad policies with no room for deviating.

    The solution to this particular situation is obvious to us after the fact but the conditions that led to it are unlikely to change.

  2. I could read the entirety of the OED and not find words to sufficiently describe the dismay and outrage I felt when reading this article. The nurse is lucky I wasn’t called to the scene because I would have arrested her for reckless endangerment and the principal if he was present during the event for his failure to call emergency services. The actions of the school and the nurse were completely and totally unacceptable and in my opinion criminal. If the child had died, I am certain there would be Probable Cause to arrest for Manslaughter.

    Someone should file a complaint to the state board of health there. If she is actually licensed, I expect she won’t be later.

    I read a few years ago that a child who witnessed another friend who also had asthma have an attack at school and was suspended and labeled a drug dealer because the former gave the patient a puff of their rescue inhaler. I also read that an English Language School in Quebec prohibited a blind man from bringing her service dog to the school because the dog’s commands were in French. This case today is worse by a longshot but seems to be endemic to a worrying degree.

    What a bunch of drones. Useless bureaucratic drones. They could have killed this child because of their asinine adherence to their own arbitrary rules. THE PIECE OF PAPER WAS WORTH MORE THAN A LIFE. Then they blame the parents for not signing a piece of paper. Again, the OED isn’t thick enough.

    I wish there was something I could do about this. I’m pretty angry now.

  3. On an flight in America, visiting after some years away,
    I was told that I could not receive a headache tablet from the stewardess. That it was forbidden. I assumed that this was due to avoidance of responsibility of medical consequences. I wondered how they could sell alcoholic beverages without hinder.

    Now we know by this young student’s example that tort America has gone too far. Or are you just salivating at the opportunities. We know then your speciality. And where did the latin phrase IN LOCO PARENTIS disappear from practice?

    Motto: “Don’t breathe on me. I’ll sue!”

    Are your hidden chains chafing America?

    And I remember the golden days of flying from NYC to SF, propellar driven, one class=First Class, all could be VIP for the flight. On this flight the aft was not a den for the underclass, but a lounge furnished for drink and mingle, small but oh, so nice.

  4. Being OT with flying:
    I wonder when the seat in front of you wiil be equipped to dispense a plastic bag, which you fill from a spigot.
    A similar one if you want a beverage.
    It’ll be called BYOS service. ?????

    BRING YOUR OWN STRAW.

    Oh, you have it in the 600+ passengers flights to Australia. Nice is it? I’ll bet. Oskuld airlines. Yes, they are alsways modern.

  5. There was a book written many years ago titled, “The Death of Common Sense”, and we’re reminded of that all too often these days. That and a lot of moral cowardice.

    I’d have a hard time restraining myself from physically confronting these imbeciles had this happened to my son. UFB

  6. Unbelievable story. Even for Florida! As someone with asthma, I am appalled at the complete lack of common sense and professionalism. This child could have died. This nurse and school official need to work in a different profession. Not even calling 911? Idiots.

  7. Our school system sent out forms at the beginning of each school year. Parents had to include names and telephone numbers of people to be contacted in case of emergency as well as other important information on the forms. Parents had to sign the forms. Teachers and the school nurse followed up when parents didn’t return the forms to school. The school nurse in Florida should have made sure that she had signed permission from a parent to give that child his inhaler. Otherwise, what’s the point of having the inhaler at school? I’d also have to question why the parents hadn’t signed a medical release form.

  8. Folks

    Knowing there is not much I can do about this situation, I did at least write up the following letter which I am sending out via certified mail when our post office opens this morning:

    Office of the Florida State Attorney
    Seventh Judicial Circuit
    101 N Alabama Avenue
    4th Floor
    Deland, FL 32724

    Greetings:

    I have read with great dismay the events taking place in your jurisdiction with regard to the situation you surely have read in the news media where in my view a nurse recklessly endangered the life of a seventeen year old student at Volusia High School by refusing him a rescue inhaler during which time he nearly succumbed to an asthma attack.

    I ask as a citizen that your office investigate this reckless act and if the events are as they are proffered to be in the media that it seems fitting and warranted that criminal charges be filed for at least Child Neglect (Florida Statute 827.03 (3) (a) (2) (c)

    From what I read I can not see any reasonable defense to these actions and I hope that it will not occur again.

    Respectfully yours

    Darren Smith
    May 24, 2012

  9. what do you expect people to do, we pass all of these ridiculous laws and take people to court at the drop of a hat. We are damned if we do and damned if we dont.

    Small minds think this stuff up, we regulate this and we regulate that to fix what we regulated that didnt work. It is a never ending cycle/circle. Pretty soon everything will be illegal and we will be a nation of criminals.

    Had the nurse given the boy the inhaler and he died, she would be culpable because the form wasnt signed. She was in a no win situation and so was the principal. They should have called 911 but there are probably rules about that as well.

    It is not the nurse and the principal who are at fault, it is the nanny state and the politicians who think this crap up based on prodding from stupid people in their districts who want life to be fair, to be perfect, to be a rose garden free from burden or strife. It is because some people dont understand that life isnt fair and government cannot make it fair because none of us are born with equal capabilities.

    The blame is on all of us for wanting to be taken care of and not taking responsibility for our own lives. For expecting others to look out for us in our daily life, for thinking government is all knowing and all caring and for thinking the same of politicians.

  10. there are a lot of hungry lawyers in Florida. Lots of them are not too bright, hardly tolerant, and they like money more than people, truth, law or reason. They have created a cesspool of fear and chased every competent intelligent public minded soul right out of this state. Point a finger, make a buck!!!!!!!

  11. Bron,

    Your dogma is showing again. This isn’t about “too many laws”. This case is about reckless endangerment and callous stupidity. Plain old irresponsible behavior by a person in a position of power over a child.

    And what mespo said.

  12. “The blame is on all of us for wanting to be taken care of and not taking responsibility for our own lives.” Bron
    ———————————————-
    no it is not. I agree with much of what you said but the majority of people , I believe, do NOT think this way. The majority of people are more than happy to do their part. Most are not ABLE to continually be held to impossible and inescapable imposed standards that are ultimately futile to a decent livelihood, responsible and equal exchange, ethical and fair contribution to a society. Standards imposed by those who feel no need to follow them. Standards imposed to make a buck, not a socially responsible, safe and thriving community. Florida is on lockdown.

  13. Gene H. I disagree, you say “Plain old irresponsible behavior by a person in a position of power over a child.”…..but that rationality of behaviour will fnd it more and more difficult to express as the level of fear increases because of imposed and illegal conditions of economic disparity. And fear of bullying slapdown lawsuits based in irrational exercises of legal ‘dominion’.
    It’s biology. There are limits. Constantly looking for people to turn into ‘negative examples’ by the legal community(at thier own enrichment) has made this country a dangerous place to live….not for the thugs and criminals who love environments like this, but for the very souls it says it exists to protect.

  14. From the article:

    “Selesky said the district is looking into whether proper procedures were followed by the school, and while nurses can’t give medications without the proper authorization, it is district policy to call 911 when a student cannot breath[e].”

    *****

    The school was definitely at fault for not calling 911.

  15. Woosty:

    we vote in the jackasses who pass these laws. We want to be protected from ourselves or at least enough of us do.

    When I was in high school, I am pretty sure I had friends who carried their inhaler with them. And you could bring an aspirin from home to take at lunch if you needed it, you didnt need to go through the school nurse.

    We are less free now than we were 30 years ago and even less free than we were 60 years ago. The arc of freedom is not going the right way. And yet we continually vote for creeps, criminals and jackasses.

    Why?

  16. I blame lawyers ! Awful people :)

    But seriously, Shirley…

    If you have a society in which (some) lawyers will take up cases on behalf of the deranged and the opportunistic chancers, and bureaucratic courts entertain those claims – you’re going to end up with situations like this.

    Situations like this happen where the people don’t have faith that justice will prevail if someone sues their asses because they haven’t covered those asses by sticking absolutely to the rules.

  17. Agree with Elaine. I have a child that might have needed medical assistance at school. I always had the forms signed and was in contact with the nurse. Most of the school nurses that I have dealt with have been very responsible. The doctor also gave me a form to take to the school with the proper instructions. I wanted to avoid having 911 called.

  18. Gene H:

    No, I dont think my dogma is showing. I dont agree with what the nurse or the principal did but they did it because they were afraid for their jobs. If they had given the kid the inhaler without the signed form and the kid died, they would have lost their jobs or faced huge court costs or both.

    The public school system in this country is broken, the teachers and principals have no real say in the curriculum. School administration has sucked the life out of our schools. Ask Elaine, she will tell you. Public schools have become a cesspool of bureaucratic incompetence, I am talking on the state and local levels, not the teachers or principals. They are the ones having to deal with the ridiculous and the asinine coming from the state capitals and being implemented by the county b-crats.

  19. “Why?”~Bron
    ———————-
    I heard on the news yesterday that a person who answered a text mssg hit someone and caused them great harm….and were being sued ( the victim lost a leg in the accident), But the lawyer (or some lawyer, not sure if it is the same one) is not only suing the person who was driving and answered the text mssg but is also suing the person who TEXTED the message.
    This is creating fear. Now look at the environments that teachers, nurses, police, etc. have to live in thanks to the ever growing threat of doing ANY DAMN THING…..environments of fear thanks to the exponential increase in lawsuits or threat of job loss…..not that these jobs pay so much to begin with mind you but the choice of defending against a suit is not usually ‘choice’ and while many will waive fees if they lose an instigated lawsuit most who defend against them do not. In many minds it is criminal when cops ‘search and seize’ but not so much when lawyers ‘poke and squeeze??’ ????

  20. How long before asphyxiation causses brain death?
    How long does 911 take to get there and the student breathing again?.
    How many lawyers, legislators, judges, nurses, principals, etc, dance on the head of a regulation and a liability case?
    How long can the memory of a dead child endure?
    Can money or revenge compensate?

    Or shall we do as the homophilic Spartans who were praised here recently, let us put defective children out to feed the wolves.

  21. The reason they couldn’t get telephonic approval from the mother is because they couldn’t record the conversation and therefore couldn’t use the phone conversation as evidence in court. You can use a signed parental consent form as evidence in court. This school was covering their backs. That is how it goes down in the United States now. Everyone is out to sue everyone. A kid dies, so what? At least I followed proceedure. It used to be that common sense would prevail. Not anymore. Using common sense will get you a lawsuit now. If you see someone choking in Burger King, just call 9-1-1, sit back and watch as his face turns blue,. Attempting to save his life may ruin yours. Yes, the judges of this country are responsible for allowing so many of these types of lawsuits to go forward. It’s similar to when judges allow homeowners to be sued for medical expenses and pain and suffering by robbers who, after breaking a window to enter a home, cut themselves on the glass. It is the judges who facilitate this bizarre and absurd society in which we live. Some judges in this country have serious mental illness undiagnosed. So when you see this type of behavior, just remember that they don’t ask parents to sign consent forms for nothing. It is all about not getting sued.

  22. Bron,

    I can only speak about the district where I taught in a public school. The rules regarding students’ medications and signed medical release forms were put in place to PROTECT children. They were precautionary measures. Students with all types of medical conditions and diseases–including asthma, epilepsy, diabetes, ADHD–attend our schools. It would be extremely unwise to have children carrying their medications around with them or keeping them in their lockers at school. What if the medications were lost? What if a child found another child’s drug and took it? What if a child let another student take his drug? What if a student sold his/her drug to another student? At my school, student medications were kept in the nurse’s office. She was the person responsible for making sure that students got the right dosage at the right time or an inhaler/injection with an epi pen when needed. The nurse also provided us teachers with a special medical bag when we took our children on field trips.

    School personnel who serve “in loco parentis” need to have information about the drugs/medications that a child takes/may need to take in an emergency. They need to be aware of any allergies, diseases, conditions that may affect a child’s health. Parents should understand that it is their responsibility to make sure that schools have all the information and signed release forms that are necessary to insure their child’s well-being.

  23. The parents of children in that school district need a meeting today or a posse tonight to resolve the problem with the nurse, the principal and the school board. Nurse Kratchet needs to go but not before having her license to be a nurse is torn up. The Principal needs to go because once it is proven that they cant teach and thence assigned to teach teachers and fail at that then there is no place in a school for them. This particular child needs to be assigned to another school so that the fear of them killing him on purpose might dissapate. All that being said, some practical action needs to be taken. If the kid has a dad or another male person like grandfather, uncle, or pal, that person needs to go kick the crap out of the principal if he is a male. We call it the living crap where I come from. Perhaps locking the nurse, the principal and the school board in a room without oxygen or oxycotton would be the right course of action.

  24. Ladies,
    when responsible adult parties to standard routines fail, who does the dying? If it has his name on it, and you can see that within your competence that there is a need, then give it to him. And the law must exist which protects like “castle doctrine does.

  25. Elaine and Swarthmore Mom,
    even if the signed permission slip was not in hand, for whatever reason, the nurse has a duty to help a stricken student, doesn’t she? Does a school nurse not provide first aid or CPR when needed, even if there was no previous medical history requiring a prescription and therefore a medical permission slip signed by a parent? The school can’t be successfully sued for calling 911 for a stricken student.

  26. Elaine,
    Your field trip emergency pack for teacher use intrigues me. What judgement calls were they empowered and/or forced to make? Were they and the school protected from liability suits?

  27. rafflaw,

    Did you read my earlier comment about the school being at fault for not calling 911?

    http://jonathanturley.org/2012/05/24/students-goes-into-asthma-attack-but-school-nurse-refuses-to-let-him-use-inhaler-without-a-signed-parental-form-nurse-watches-with-inhaler-as-student-collapses/#comment-374094

    School systems usually have rules about measures that should be taken in case of a medical emergency. This system did–but they weren’t followed.

  28. I tend to agree with BarkinDog. Legal arguments aside; How does one human stand there and watch someone else pass out (he could have died, it wouldn’t have made a difference), and you stand there with HIS inhaler IN YOUR HAND and watch him, afraid, suffering and very possibly dying? Hitler would have been very proud of you honey, you have what it takes! Auschwitz would have delighted in you! Where is the humanity in this robot of a woman professing to be a nurse?

    Back in my day they didn’t FILL the kids with drugs that were dangerous. As pointed out above, an aspirin and an inhaler would not have hurt other children. We didn’t have incidents like this back then, and oh my GOSH we have lived to tell about it!

  29. idealist,

    All pertinent medical information and emergency medications were included in the bag. Teachers would talk with the nurse prior to a field trip about the children who might need to have an inhaler/an injection with an epi pen, etc. The nurse had signed medical release forms on file. Our school system dotted all the i’s and crossed all the t’s.

  30. “It is also not clear why 911 was not called. The parents have filed child endangerment charges against the nurse. They also may want to consider a civil lawsuit against the school.

    Assuming this family is a typical family of typical wealth (that is to say, no wealth), how much would such a lawsuit cost?

    WHAT IS THE BEST WAY FOR THIS FAMILY TO GET FREE OR AFFORDABLE LEGAL REPRESENTATION IN SUCH A CIVIL LAWSUIT?

    Is such a civil lawsuit likely to find a lawyer willing to take this on either on a contingency basis or pro-bono?

    What are the requirements, if any, for lawyers to perform pro-bono work, and how likely is it a lawyer would represent this family pro-bono?

    Lawyers have been given many privileges and entitlements by society. These sorts of abuses by schools, by cops, by bureaucrats against the citizen demand that lawyers repay society by providing copious amounts of legal work to the common citizen at affordable or reasonable rates, or else to put their bodies on the line to reform these abuses.

    Until there is much less of a gap between the common citizen’s needs for legal representation against the government, these abuses will continue.

    Also, I exclude Gene H from this because citizens require competent lawyers.

  31. fee

    “…an aspirin and an inhaler would not have hurt other children.”

    Wrong. Hemophiliacs should not take aspirin–nor should people with digestive problems. In addition, there has been a link found between the taking of aspirin and Reye’s syndrome under certain circumstances.

    *****

    Definition
    By Mayo Clinic staff

    Reye’s (Ryes) syndrome is a rare but serious condition that causes swelling in the liver and brain. Reye’s syndrome most often affects children and teenagers recovering from a viral infection and who may also have a metabolic disorder. Signs and symptoms such as confusion, seizures and loss of consciousness require emergency treatment. Early diagnosis and treatment of Reye’s syndrome can save a child’s life.

    Aspirin has been linked with Reye’s syndrome, so use caution when giving aspirin to children or teenagers. Though aspirin is approved for use in children older than age 2, children and teenagers recovering from chickenpox or flu-like symptoms should never take aspirin. Talk to your doctor if you have concerns.

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/reyes-syndrome/DS00142

  32. Rafflaw, I would have given the kid the inhaler, but a parent can’t and should not count on that. They need to get the paperwork in. The student is seventeen and could have assumed some responsibility in getting the paperwork in.

  33. Inhalers aren’t necessarily benign either, fee. Inhalant abuse, especially among middle schools, is quite prevalent.

  34. Swarthmore mom,

    I have known parents who chose to ignore the school rules about medication. There was one situation where I found out that the parents of one of my students–a second grader–packed medication for him in his lunchbox. I spoke to the school nurse about it and she contacted the parents and resolved the issue.

  35. Elaine,
    I missed it originally. Sorry. I don’t think anyone disagrees that the paperwork is needed and should have been completed, but when you have a stricken child, the school personnel have no excuse to not aid that child, IMO..

  36. From the florida statute 827.03 (3)(A)

    “Neglect of a child” means:
    1. A caregiver’s failure or omission to provide a child with the care, supervision, and services necessary to maintain the child’s physical and mental health, including, but not limited to, food, nutrition, clothing, shelter, supervision, medicine, and medical services that a prudent person would consider essential for the well-being of the child; or

    2. A caregiver’s failure to make a reasonable effort to protect a child from abuse, neglect, or exploitation by another person.

    School policy won’t protect her, although one could argue it could help argue she wasn’t ‘Willful’ Which will help prevent it from being aggravated. I just can’t figure the reasoning of the LOCKED door though, what the heck!

  37. Classic stuff! In high school, the nurse took my inhaler from me and wouldn’t give it back because I didn’t have a note. I ended up having an asthma attack and having to disrupt class to go to the nurse’s office to use it… Sure, she let me use it, but she wouldn’t let me have it. Once I got a note from the doctor saying I should have it, her and the principal both tried to say I couldn’t actually carry it on my own and could only have it in the nurse’s office. My mother called BS on it and they gave in, realizing that I’d basically be disrupting classes every time I needed it, and they could be liable if something worse happened.

  38. For the record, the 17-year-old is a product of our school system that seeks to make submissive citizens… I would’ve grabbed the thing from the nurse, punched her if I had to, and used it. Better than possibly dying.

  39. bettykath

    Why did the nurse accept a medication without having a permission slip on file?

    ——————————————————————————-

    Now that seems like a common sense solution. No medicine will be accepted without an accompanying permission slip and instructions for use.

    Once that medication was in the possession of a school employee without the parental signed permission, the school was stuck between a legal rock and an illegal hard place. The parents were wrong for not turning in the proper forms and the school was wrong for taking possession of the medication without the proper forms.

    However, the failure to call 911 immediately upon realizing she had no legal authority to administer the medication is solely the fault of the nurse. First 911 … then the parents. (If I were the parents, I’d look into who pays for paramedics coming to the school on a 911 call … there might be a filthy lucre motivation behind the failure to place that call.)

  40. “However, the failure to call 911 immediately upon realizing she had no legal authority to administer the medication is solely the fault of the nurse.”

    Absolutely.

  41. bettykath & Blouise,

    “Why did the nurse accept a medication without having a permission slip on file?”

    I wondered the same thing. Then I read the entire article that Jonathan used as his source. The nurse didn’t accept the medication. It was found in the boy’s locker.

    *****

    Excerpt from the article:

    “He [the student] said the school dean found his inhaler during a search of his locker last Friday. The inhaler was still in its original packaging — complete with his name and directions for its use; however, the school took it away because his mother hadn’t signed the proper form for him to have it.”

  42. Here is another excerpt: The Director of Student Health Services, Cheryl Selesky, said that parents must sign the medical release form each year, which allows students to carry their prescribed drugs with them in school.

    This year, the district had no record of his Rudi’s signature, said Selesky.

  43. (Just my example of school nurse incompetance, not to indict all school nurses though, in HS we had a wonderful one)
    Went to get our eye tests, in elementary school. I read with my right eye, 20/20. Then with left and vcould only read big E. She yelled at me to stop fooling around and come back when I was ready to take the test right. I did not. Turned out I had a lazy eye. By the time it was found by eye doc I was past age to get a good return of use by using a patch.
    I understand fear of liability but, like others say why the heck didnt she call 911 then? and the inhaler had kids name on it, it is ot as tough the student pulled some med out of his pocket and said “Give me this, Nurse”.
    Litigation happens often as a means to force behavior change. This idiocy may well cost the taxpayers and therefore the entire student pop money for art programs, teachers, music, etc.
    Tomfoolery on every level.

  44. bettykath, my theory is it is the HFCS and GMOs. Dr. Weil has opened a new chain of restaurants called True Food Kitchen to cater to people who refuse to eat poisons.
    I am eating there every night of the convention I am attending because all the other restaurants are full of GMOs, HFCS, preservatives, food color flavor enhancers et al.

    Our brains all need good high quality fats to function properly. Lots of Omega 3s. The typical American diet is void of this particular brain food.

  45. Here are a few thoughts for your appetites.

    How about the parents and the child file a Section 1983 action (Deprivation of Civil Rights under Color of Law) against the School District. I would go so far as to have the district criminally charged under Title 18, USC ss 242

    I think the precident is good in Federal Court for this one. Around 20 years ago, for example, in Spokane a woman was being robbed and an armored car driver took chase of the suspect and rescued her from the attack. The armored car company fired him for violating company rules in doing this. He then filed a civil suit against the company for unlawful termination. Eventually the courts held that the company could not enforce the “company rules” against him when he was aiding a person from harm.

    Again, the rules professed as absolute by the school district, are arbitrary and of completely no relevance when it comes to saving the life of another person. Anybody can make up arbitrary rules. They are not a shield. Plus, since the school district is a government agency and they made it clear the nurse and the principal were bound to stand by it and allow the child to nearly die, it makes the case more and more evident the boy’s rights were deprived under color of law.

    d

  46. One more thing. What ever happend to “Do the right thing, and make the paperwork look good afterward.”

  47. bettykath,

    “Has our dna been scrambled such that the common sense gene is no longer functioning?”

    I’d say that many employers these days don’t want workers/employees who use common sense and good judgment, who think for themselves, who speak out and/or dare to criticize workplace policies and the status quo–they want workers/employees who live by/follow the company rules.

  48. http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Nurse-refuses-student-inhaler-during-asthma-attack/-/1637132/13560430/-/wm13uaz/-/index.html
    ————————————
    It looks to me like there is more to this story than meets the eye. I would have called 911 if the O2 sat were dropping, nail beds bluing, certainly if subjectively I heard ‘I can’t breathe’….but I don’t see the whole picture here….like maybe they did not have his meds in thier possesion any longer….his med was found the previous week, what transpired in the phone call w/Mom???? Name calling? ”Don’t call 911, I’ll be right there?”
    17 years old and he was that passive? He did not feel too threatened or endangered enough to initiate a 911 on his own? Something is not jiving in this story.

    I know 1 thing for sure….it is dangerous, from all sides, to be a nurse these days.

  49. SHANO:

    eat more walnuts, very high in Omega 3’s. Also grass fed beef, it has more Omega 3 than salmon from what I have read.

    I dont think Dr. Atkinson knew that when he invented the Atkins Diet. He saw heart attacks going up after the early 20’s and figured it was processed food and looked at our diet of meat and heart attacks in the 19th and early 20th century.

    The grass fed beef was protecting us, or so it seems now. But you can lose weight on his diet and pretty fast too, even if you are sedentary.

  50. Shano,

    Good point about diet. Get rid of the three Ps: pesticides, preservatives, and processing. Eat fresh organic, as much raw as possible.

  51. “It would be extremely unwise to have children carrying their medications around with them or keeping them in their lockers at school.”

    Elaine, that’s just wrong. These children learn to take their meds when they are needed. There is nothing ‘unwise’ in the least by teaching the child, who probably knows when he/she is experiencing an asthma attack or other health emergency, how to be responsible for his/her treatment (especially asthma). Do you REALLY think that, at the age of 17, this ‘child’ didn’t know that he was having an attack and that he needed his inhaler? I expect that the REAL reason is found in your next statement;

    ” What if a child found another child’s drug and took it? What if a student sold his/her drug to another student? (Thank you, Richard Nixon) ”

    My sister has had asthma all her life. I remember very well her struggles to breathe when she had her attacks. Even IF you accept the fact that a piece of paper wasn’t signed, human compassion ALONE should have prompted some assistance (and I don’t mean calling mom…what if she was at work, an hour away and couldn’t get there right away?). This was at the very LEAST, child endangerment. While I am not someone who thinks very highly of our system of Tort law (sorry, professor) this is clearly a case where the nurse’s licence should be revoked, and the principal should be fired. But then it IS Florida. What else would you expect?

  52. “I understand fear of liability but, like others say why the heck didnt she call 911 then? and the inhaler had kids name on it, it is ot as tough the student pulled some med out of his pocket and said “Give me this, Nurse”.
    Litigation happens often as a means to force behavior change.
    ————————–
    I may have missed it? but I don’t see where the med was in anyones possession on the day.

    Yes, litigation has an uncanny way of changing behaviors…. a good hard look at the stock market and the behaviors of the banksters are a good example ;). A few good suits and we won’t have to worry about anymore of those pesky public sector schools /jobs/ competition…. ;)

  53. Elaine,

    Thanks for the info. I need to start reading the full article before commenting.

    ““He [the student] said the school dean found his inhaler during a search of his locker last Friday. ”

    So what did the dean do with the medication? The student had a long history of asthma, the medication was in its original packaging with his name and directions on it. Just a wild-a.. guess here, but maybe, just maybe, the student would need it in a life-threatening event. Did the dean just put it in her/his desk? Give it to the nurse? Flush it down the toilet?

    That common sense gene suggests that she/he: Give it back to the student at the end of the day Friday with an admonition to get the paperwork in on Monday.

    The student has probably been carrying his inhaler all school year, as he had for the past several years. With only a couple of weeks to go, what could go wrong?

  54. The Sunlight Foundation determined that Congress is talking at nearly a full grade level below the level at which members spoke seven years ago, according to its study of the Congressional Record—the official record of members’ proceedings and speech. The foundation applied the Flesch-Kincaid grade level test to congressional conversations and found that today’s Congress speaks “at about a 10.6 grade level, down from 11.5 in 2005,” senior fellow Lee Drutman wrote in his analysis. Sunlight also found that the newest as well as the most conservative members of Congress on average speak at the lowest grade level.

    yea, we are getting dumber

  55. Answered my own question. In the video, the teen says the nurse had the inhaler but wouldn’t give it to him. So the nurse did accept medication without an approval on file and did nothing about it.

  56. Kraaken,
    I agree with Elaine that I don’t normally agree that kids should be allowed to carry their own medication with them at school. However, this case might be an exception because the student can die before the nurse or administrator gets to the scene with the inhaler. The asthma can kill him pretty quickly if he has an attack.

  57. Kraken,

    I taught at an elementary school. I think it unwise for young children to have drugs in their possession. I also think it best for certain drugs like Ritalin to be given to children at home and not sent to school in their lunchboxes. I also think it unwise for teenagers to take drugs like Ritalin to school.

    Not all children are responsible about about taking their drugs when they should. Kids are kids. They lose/misplace things. They forget to do things.

    This student’s school system allowed him to have his inhaler with him at school–as long as the school had a medical release form signed by his parents. I do think a seventeen-year-old can be responsible about the use of his inhaler.

    *****

    “Even IF you accept the fact that a piece of paper wasn’t signed, human compassion ALONE should have prompted some assistance (and I don’t mean calling mom…what if she was at work, an hour away and couldn’t get there right away?).”

    Where did I imply or state that the boy in this story should not have received some type of treatment? I left a comment stating that the school was at fault in this case.

    http://jonathanturley.org/2012/05/24/students-goes-into-asthma-attack-but-school-nurse-refuses-to-let-him-use-inhaler-without-a-signed-parental-form-nurse-watches-with-inhaler-as-student-collapses/#comment-374094

    Elaine M. 1, May 24, 2012 at 9:20 am

    From the article:

    “Selesky said the district is looking into whether proper procedures were followed by the school, and while nurses can’t give medications without the proper authorization, it is district policy to call 911 when a student cannot breath[e].”

    *****

    The school was definitely at fault for not calling 911.

    **********

    I also wrote the following comment;

    http://jonathanturley.org/2012/05/24/students-goes-into-asthma-attack-but-school-nurse-refuses-to-let-him-use-inhaler-without-a-signed-parental-form-nurse-watches-with-inhaler-as-student-collapses/#comment-374153
    Elaine M. 1, May 24, 2012 at 11:19 am

    rafflaw,

    I agree that there is no excuse for the child not having been given any medical attention.

    *****

    Teens Abusing And Selling Ritalin for High
    Feb. 25
    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=125327&page=1

    Excerpt:
    A growing number of young people are snorting Ritalin — a much-lauded drug for hyperactive children — to lose weight, study for exams and in some cases, just to get high, according to some drug experts.

    Teens and 20-somethings are the key abusers, and some even go to their doctors and fake symptoms in order to get prescriptions for Ritalin that they subsequently misuse themselves, and even sell to their friends, experts said.

    “I’d take six, seven, eight pills at a time,” said Jacob Stone, a high school student at Sobriety High, a drug treatment school in Minneapolis, who used to abuse Ritalin. “I’d snort them. Along the way, I knew a couple who would melt them down and shoot them up.”

    There has been a six-fold increase in emergency room visits associated to Ritalin abuse over the past decade, according to the Drug Abuse Warning Network, which tracks drug abuse data for federal health authorities. There were 271 Ritalin-related emergency room visits in 1990 and 1,478 visits in 2001.

    “All the kids know about Ritalin abuse,” said Dr. Robert Millman, a psychiatry professor at Cornell University-Weill Medical College in New York. “They know about other kids sharing their pills, and they know about kids snorting it.”

    Stone began misusing Ritalin after being diagnosed with ADHD as a sixth-grader, and later sold the prescription drug to fellow high school students, charging $5 for three blue 10-milligram pills or one orange 30-milligram pill.

    “And the people who were most interested in it were the younger kids who weren’t trying to do real drugs,” Stone said. “They wanted something that seemed like it was okay to do and that still would give them a good buzz.”

  58. The nurse should have called 911 as soon as the child displayed distress and the parent for directions as soon as the inhaler was found. To allow him to pass out without taking some affirmative action was irresponsible IMO.

    Having said that though, I’m kinda’ on the side of the school policy here in not providing medication to students without a specific letter of consent. There is too much room for abuse when kids are subject to medical treatment outside of a doctors office and without a parent present. I’d advocate a separate signed consent form for every specific procedure and medication that went beyond a bandaid for a scraped knee. The kind of broad consent form used by at least one school in the following (scandalous) story about the profit-motive driven, free market approach to providing dental work to kids in a school setting is a no-no in my opinion.

    “Dental Abuse Seen Driven by Private Equity Investments”

    “Isaac Gagnon stepped off the school bus sobbing last October and opened his mouth to show his mother where it hurt.

    She saw steel crowns on two of the 4-year-old’s back teeth. A dentist’s statement in his backpack showed he had received two pulpotomies, or baby root canals, along with the crowns and 10 X-rays — all while he was at school. Isaac, who suffers from seizures from a brain injury in infancy, didn’t need the work, according to his mother, Stacey Gagnon.”

    “I was absolutely horrified,” said Gagnon, of Camp Verde, Arizona. “I never gave them permission to drill into my son’s mouth. They did it for profit.”

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-17/dental-abuse-seen-driven-by-private-equity-investments.htm

  59. WOOSTY–

    The last sentence in the first paragraph: says the nurse watched with the inhaler.

    Apparently she must have had it in her hands. Absolutely unbelievable!

  60. From the University of Michigan:

    U-M study: Asthma inhaler misuse widespread among anti-social teens
    May 07, 2008
    http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/6543

    ANN ARBOR, Mich.—Nearly one out of four teens who use an asthma inhaler say their intent is to get high.

    Findings from a new University of Michigan study identified high levels of asthma inhaler misuse among anti-social youths, who displayed higher levels of distress and were more likely to abuse other substances.

    “Our findings indicate that inhaler misuse for the purposes of becoming intoxicated is both widespread and may justifiably be regarded as a form of substance abuse in many cases,” said Brian Perron, an assistant professor in the School of Social Work and study’s lead author.

    Perron co-authored the study with Matthew Howard, a professor at the University of North Carolina.

    The researchers conducted a survey assessing substance use, psychiatric symptoms and anti-social behaviors among 723 adolescents in 32 residential treatment facilities. About 27 percent of youths who had been prescribed an inhaler used it excessively. In addition, one-third of all youths in the sample had used an asthma inhaler without a prescription.

    Asthma inhaler misusers were more psychiatrically distressed and prone to suicidal thoughts and attempts than youths who did not misuse their inhalers to get high, the study shows. Many inhaler abusers reported positive feelings of euphoria, relaxation and increased confidence during or immediately following inhaler use. Adverse reactions noted included feeling more dizzy, headaches, rapid heartbeat, anxiety, irritability and confusion.

    Rates of misuse were elevated among girls and whites in the sample, the study shows.

  61. lottakatz:

    this is happening to older folks too, medicare/medicaid is being ripped off by doctors who see the elderly as their cash cow. Many are alone and are being taken advantage of by “sweet” doctors who pay attention to them and bill er excuse me bilk the crap out of the tax payer.

  62. Elaine–tnx for UM study. vy important to know.

    SwM–you sounded like the DEA a while there, until UM study supports your contentions. Know where you are and approve, but don’t know the facts of the matter. Few do.
    And you’re a Doc Weil early follower. Me too.

    Shano–Omega 3 forever. Canola oil is cheaper than walnuts, but not as much fun. Try walnut sourdough bread.

    Bron–grass fed beef is full of saturated fats. The body got in only sparingly in our original state. A no-no.

    Fee–She was waiting for his lips to turn blue before administering it. Or an abuse confession. Ratchett Reigns

    ALL–Eat like Shano. Watch food sources change then. AVOID MICROWAVING ANTTHING EXCEPT A CUP OF COFFEE. Have the doc file to prove it. Nuts? Yeah, and so is Monsanto, and they are making a profit on our life deterioration. Good luck all.

  63. idealist, I put a link up, too. lol My sister was just telling me about inhalant abuse in her daughter’s middle school the other day.

  64. Was the form an update from the previous year? Would the Dr.s rx on inhaler contaniner, which was clearly seen by nurse/principal, have been considered legally sufficient for the inhaler to have been administered? I have severe asthma. they’re lucky that child didn’t die. And did the school ever call 911?

  65. idealist, The University of Michigan study was linked in my article. I make a point of not preaching about drug abuse. I eat as much wild fish as possible for the omega 3’s. Wild copper river salmon is available now but it is very pricey.

  66. What those kids call as a high is what I call an unpleasant side effect. I use two daily, and although I’ve used them for years they still make me very nervous at times. I just don’t understand what they could find about the side effects that would be considered a good feeling at all.

  67. idealist, the only problem I have with Canola oil is even the wild plants are GMO now. all of them have been contaminated by Monsanto Round Up Ready strains.
    This means the plant does not chelate minerals properly..

  68. Bron , yea, grass fed beef is full of healthy fats. In our quest to improve food we only made them more convenient for manufacturers, not more nutritious for people to eat.

  69. Bron: “lottakatz: this is happening to older folks too, medicare/medicaid is being ripped off by doctors who see the elderly as their cash cow.”

    Bron, I know that’s true from my experience with my dad. It’s one of the reasons I think single payer could be a boon to the consumer if a system that put doctors on a payroll basis could be implemented. The profit motive can kill you if you can’t do the homework to review your doctors treatment and call a halt to the needless tests and treatment.

  70. I think the school’s liability is fairly clear in this instance. I also believe that a number of comments on this thread have been a tad broad. Here’s why:

    1. Permission forms are a good idea for reasons beyond liability concerns. They provide valuable information regarding a child’s health and the medication he or she may be taking. That is very important information in the event of an emergency. Furthermore, these forms are not a new phenomenon. We had to get written permission from our parents (which included releases) in order to go on field trips back in the 1950s, long before the growth of personal injury law.

    2. Although I do not practice personal injury or products liability law, I believe that the trial bar has been unfairly maligned, primarily through the public relations efforts of an insurance industry jealous of its profits and fearful of juries. I have tried many jury cases in commercial and business torts areas, and I have found that juries are careful, conservative and reasonable in calculating damages. The vast majority of cases do not go to trial, and the verdicts that get media attention due to their size almost always involve truly terrible injuries that will require hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of continuing treatment over many years. And in some areas, such as medical malpractice, cases that do get to trial return verdicts for the plaintiff less than half the time. It should also be remembered that lawyers handle these matters on a contingent fee basis, frequently having to advance huge sums for investigation and expert testimony without assurance of a successful result. As a result, potential claims are carefully analyzed before a case is taken, and most cases, including cases with arguable merit, are declined. Lawyers are also exposed to financial penalties for pursuing claims without a basis in the law, and the courts do not hesitate to impose them. In short, the number of “frivolous” suits actually filed is quite low. Finally, I would note that the efforts of trial lawyers have been instrumental in protecting individuals from dangerous products, dangerous working conditions and outright fraud, and have spurred a great deal of beneficial legislation over the years.

    3. With regard to the Volusia County school matter, the school nurse should have immediately called 911 when it became apparent that the student could not breathe. If she had his prescription inhaler in her possession, she should have administered the specified dosage to him regardless of the absence of a signed permission slip. Had she done so, I believe that she would have been immune to suit under Florida’s Good Samaritan statute. The school should also have a policy in place covering medical emergencies in situations in which a signed parental consent is not on file, and school employees should be familiar with that policy. Instead, it appears as though the nurse suffered some sort of bureaucratic brain freeze and did nothing. This hardly qualifies as a “damned if you do and damned if you don’t” incident.

  71. Mike A.,

    Thanks for your input.

    Evidently, there was a policy in place–but the nurse didn’t follow it.

    From the article:

    “Selesky [Director of Student Health Services] said the district is looking into whether proper procedures were followed by the school, and while nurses can’t give medications without the proper authorization, it is district policy to call 911 when a student cannot breath[e].”

  72. Stuff happens. It was not the fault of the parent for “failing to sign the form.” As you read through all the stories it is very clear this young man had inhalers at the school for years, many past permission forms filed. Failure one- when the dean seized the inhaler he should have immediately checked for the correct form, and if not present then no form, no school. I would not expect any school to have a child present who needs life saving medication who they do not have permission to administer. Second failure, Nurse Incompetent had medication delivered to her and she did not check for permission. All those hours she has no sick students she had no time to check that permissions were up to date? What in the hell are they paying her for? Three, Nurse Failure as a Human Being put a piece of paper ahead of a child’s life. Failed her oath on the spot. Lose License now. So, scenario, if a child in her school, with no know medical history of any illness whatsoever goes into respiratory distress she would have what? Called 911 maybe? Sure as hell didn’t call it for this child, she simply “watched him collapse.” If the Florida Nursing board does not revoke her license then I strongly suggest you never, ever travel to Florida because there simply cannot be any faith in their ability in that state to manage medical emergencies. if any parent in that school district fails to call for her immediate dismissal then you are simply as big a failure as a parent as she is as a nurse.

  73. Yes, in the bizarre world of health care, the abject fear of a common sense response occurs many times daily.

    Consider this EMS-school response case I investigated two years ago, in San Jose, California.

    Upon arrival at a high school football game, the medics were ordered by a teacher, to not drive the rescue vehicle out onto the player on the field, who had suffered a serious head injury. Why? Well, it might damage the turf.

    And so they didn’t. They parked the ambulance 75 yards away, and shuttled their equipment back & forth across the field.

    These medics, employed by the largest ambulance company in the nation, operate under mind-numbingly suffocating restraints, when it comes to exercising common sense judgement. In the wacky world of medicine, 3 of the 10 Immutable Laws, are these:

    1. No matter what you do or don’t do, some very nice people are going to
    going to die today. Get over it.

    2. Not one of them is worth losing your job over.

    3. The first priority in lifesaving is not saving lives. It’s follow the written protocols, and don’t ever, ever improvise.

    And those, my friends, are the unvarnished facts.

  74. fee
    1, May 24, 2012 at 3:26 pm
    WOOSTY–

    The last sentence in the first paragraph: says the nurse watched with the inhaler.

    Apparently she must have had it in her hands. Absolutely unbelievable!
    ————————-
    no, I don’t see that. I see that the dean had confiscated the inhaler the week before. I don’t know if she had his inhaler in her possesion. If he was in distress she should have called 911. If he was in distress, and 17, I can’t imagine that there isn’t more to this scenario…in any case, I have practiced as a nurse and I have seen stranger scenes than this. It will be interesting to see the outcome!

  75. Woosty,

    I had the same question. In the article linked to at the top of the page there is a video interview with the teen.

    In the video, the teen says the nurse had the inhaler but wouldn’t give it to him. So the nurse did accept medication without an approval on file and did nothing about it.

  76. I have two children with asthma, and I am will aware that I have to sign releases for my children to take meds at school; however, the school will not take the meds until I sign the release. So, as much as the school district wants to blame parents it seems to me they shouldn’t have taken the meds without the release.

    Now, as far as not giving the meds. I am not sure the nurse or the dean would live if that was my child on the floor when I walked in. I get not giving the meds (I don’t agree, but we Americans have caused people to be scared to react due to lawsuits) But, there is no NO No reason why no one at the school didn’t call 911. What you need a release for that too?

  77. The nurse swore an oath to the preservation of human life when she was graduated from nursing school.
    Such an oath to preserve life, overrides and supercedes policy, procedure and legislation.
    I’ve been a nurse for twenty years.
    This is not the first time I have been disgusted, embarrassed and ashamed at the actions of my fellow nurses, but it’s probably right up in the top three.

  78. This case and some of the comments which suggest culpability on the part of the parents point up the very human flaw of putting form over substance and going down all manner of meandering thought trails in the process. The point of the law is to protect citizens. The same can be said for the policy of requiring signed forms for student medication. Our legal and administrative processes are designed to effect the goal of protection, This is especially true in the case of children whom the law presumes cannot protect themselves.When an event in the extremis like this occurs anyone acting in good faith and in furtherance of the goal is protected by all manner of laws including most states’ good Samaritan law. In this case there are a host of state sovereign immunity laws which also protect both school officials and the nurse. These legal “free passes” from negligence are designed to encourage action to save lives.

    It is incomprehensible to me that an adult would watch a child die knowing full well that they could (and are duty bound by the precepts of their profession to) help but still doing nothing. If the civil law of Florida means anything, it means bringing this to the attention of a the citizens of Florida to see if they can think straight and hold this nurse and school accountable.

  79. Excerpt from the article:

    “He [the student] said the school dean found his inhaler during a search of his locker last Friday. The inhaler was still in its original packaging — complete with his name and directions for its use; however, the school took it away because his mother hadn’t signed the proper form for him to have it.

    “School leaders called Sue Rudi when her son started having trouble breathing. She rushed to the office and was taken back to the nurse’s office by school administrators and they discovered the teen on the floor.”

    *****

    It looks like all school personnel involved in this sad situation were at fault. Not one of them did anything to help the boy. It wasn’t just the nurse who had a “brain freeze.”

  80. “It looks like all school personnel involved in this sad situation were at fault.”
    ————–
    I agree, except that I don’t. I have had to practice in this state of uber-aggressives who have become mostly reactionary to the knowledge that there is a big bad wolf out there in the shape of the corporate law firm…willing to to do, say and spend anything to gain ‘reputation points’ at the expense of some poor public servants livlihood. No one can practice rationally in this environment. When fear rules the mind shuts down. That is 1 reason that terrorism has an initial element of success. I wasn’t there, I don’t know enuff real facts re the case to bully hump the nurse, I do know that she will be screwed no matter what really happened. The common sense that nurses brought to the table has been totally undermined by this system that is mostly marvellous at making…..more bullies.

    And you can tout the reasonableness of the current courtly state of the law all you like, it is ultimately just another patina of poop when the reality of how and to whom the law is applied is examined. $$$$$$$

  81. Woosty,

    “I agree, except that I don’t.”

    You don’t agree that all the school personnel involved in the situation were at fault?

    I was a “public servant” once. I know I couldn’t have watched a child with a life-threatening medical emergency like this and not have done anything to help him. I know our school nurse would not have stood there and watched a child struggle for breath and not have given him his inhaler or called 911.

    The nurse or someone at the school should have called 911. Could you stand there and watch a child struggling for his breath and not do anything to help him?

  82. SwM,
    The pleasures of fish. You know that all salmon havr parasites, which either freezing 24H before eating raw, or cooking a point is OK. I love it both ways and cured or smoked. Supplies of wild fish diminish here. Lake fish and Baltic fish are still to be found. We have a lovely flat fish fully in class with Dover Sole, I think.

    Ate at a japanese driven (mom/pop) sushi place. Had chige, 2 large mussels in miso, followed by twe VERY LARGE MUSSELS (ALL IN SHELLS) with oodles of salmon and kimchi in a soup. Cheap for here. 12 dollars. Small lunch sushi was 10 dollars….but who wants sushi when the other is to be had.

  83. no, I couldn’t. But my point is that I don’t have all the facts….the scenario I would be ‘judging’ is , without all the facts, one that is supplemented with a personal fiction not what ultimately went down. I am therefor going to advocate that it is easy to jump on people before knowing everything, thereby inflaming opinion and creating a fearful environment in which people have to practice….thereby creating even MORE scenarios like this….which is just ridiculous and ultimately self-defeating on a societal level….it’s really easy to get all up and nasty when kids are involved….but that kind of emotional reaction is what causes these situations in the first place. I have friends that teach and tell me stories about how uber-nasty parents have forced thm to change a priveledged childs grade rather than let the teachers maintain thier own classes fairly. This is the over culture right now and it has been created by the aggressive willingness to hang at the drop of a hat so that some screamy red faced I’ll sue your ass off cretin can get what he wants or ‘thinks’ he is entitled too…at the expense of someone like this nurse….who probably couldn’t do the right thing NO MATTER WHAT SHE DID in this instance. I don’t want to live on the Island of the Lord of the Flies. The legal community has been sitting back on its haunches for years watching these types of scenarios play out and swooping in to be the hangman and make a buck….and divorcing themselves from all liability. Meanwhile, parents scream ‘I’ll sue your ass off’ at little league games. And strangely enough, there always seems to be a law firm willing to take on THOSE ridiculous lawsuits but when a lawyer or law firm or judge is clearly over the line? Not so much. So no, I agree there may have been a ball dropping but no, I absolutely am not ready to hang this nurse when so many other people were involved…including the 17 year old, and I don’t have all the facts.

  84. Mike A —

    God post, but since you wrote at a level exceeding 7th grading reading ability, don’t expect any of the right-wing tort reformers to be able to understand that making state institutions exempt from most lawsuits and placing severe limitations on damage recovery actually creates incentive to allow folks to die — where is anyone gonna find a competent lawyer to sue them?

  85. I’M WITH WOOSTY. BEST ALL AROUND.
    1, May 25, 2012 at 9:37 am

    My shrink said that a nation run by fear is doomed. The question is when and how. And he’s no doomer.

    But I’m not the first to say this, but it bears repeating.

    Here, BTW, anyone can, upon reading a newspaper article, ring the police and demand an investigation of a presumptive crime. And it will be done.

    But sue each other. Naw, seldom.

  86. Woosty:

    I don’t see your point. Throwing someone under the bus means excoriating someone unjustifiably. Karla Ramirez, as a nurse, is in the BEST position to judge the school nurse’s actions/inactions based on the available facts and the standard of care of her profession. You’ve taken an awfully extreme line on this case since we’ve shown you that there are a myriad of protections for the nurse under existing law had she simply done the decent thing and worried more about the child than some vaporous, remote, and unlikely threat to her job or her pocketbook. The irony is that she has jeopardized both by her inaction in the face of a bona fide health crisis to a child. I rarely advocate violence as an appropriate response, but a slap across the face by the child’s mother would get no more than a ho-hum from me should this nurse complain. If she had an ounce of shame in her she wouldn’t even do that.

  87. mespo727272
    1, May 25, 2012 at 11:07 am
    ————————————-
    I am also a nurse Mespo. I have been fired for not towing the managements corporate line. I have seen others get and been burned by special interests.
    I don’t see that waiting for all the facts is an extreme stance.
    If the nurse is found to be at fault then so be it but my point is that everyone is assuming that they know what actually happened when maybe we don’t. What was the content of the phone call? Did the nurse involve the principle and did he tell her to NOT act? What are her reasons for not acting?
    If I am ‘playing’ devils advocate…Good for ME!!!! (on this blog in make believe land….)

  88. Woosty:

    I don’t see your point. Throwing someone under the bus means excoriating someone unjustifiably.”
    ———————————–
    It also means excoriating someone prematurely…..which is a frequent precurser to ‘unjustifiably’.

    More facts please.

  89. also;
    “This is not the first time I have been disgusted, embarrassed and ashamed at the actions of my fellow nurses, but it’s probably right up in the top three.” Karla Ramirez

    “…..had she simply done the decent thing and worried more about the child than some vaporous, remote, and unlikely threat to her job or her pocketbook. ” Mespo
    —————————————————————

    the language contained in the above….decent? disgusted? ashamed?

    ……really? That’ll certainly make it easy for people to get to the bottom of the issue without spreading the fear, creating a mob, inspiring violence.

    Words are energy, they conduct. What are you conducting?

  90. Woosty,

    You go girl because you are being both reasonable and responsible in your remarks. You caused me to stop and rethink. More facts are needed.

  91. Woosty:

    “……really? That’ll certainly make it easy for people to get to the bottom of the issue without spreading the fear, creating a mob, inspiring violence.”

    ***********************

    One wonders what facts could come to light to justify watching another person’s child potentially die even as you hold the knowledge and means to save him. Compassion in the health care professions seems a thing of the past. Maybe they can invent a compassion transplant. Heal thyself indeed.

    Sometimes you need a mob filled with justifiable righteous indignation.

  92. SlingTrebuchet:

    Your video stirred my own steadily escalating sense of foreboding.

    I suspect that by the time we recognize how deeply we’ve dug ourselves into societal “you-just-can’t-be-too-careful” doo-doo, there will be no viable way out.

  93. Mespo said:

    “When an event in the extremis like this occurs, anyone acting in good faith and in furtherance of the goal is protected by all manner of laws including most states’ good Samaritan law.”

    Unfortunately – at least in California – most medical professionals that I know, operate under the advice from hospital council, that a medical professional is not well-protected by the Good Samaritan Act.

    The Act itself – as you probably know – originated to encourage non-professional bystanders to do the right thing. The general thinking among nurses, docs & medics in my neck of the woods, is that the more you know, the less you can count on being protected.

    Not that this nurse didn’t have several other options.

    I personally was once suspended as a Medic in San Diego, for inserting a surgical airway into a drowning, 1-year old girl.

    Why was I suspended?

    I didn’t have my airway certificate in my wallet at the time.

    And some folks wonder why I yammer so.

  94. Mespo: “One wonders what facts could come to light to justify watching another person’s child potentially die even as you hold the knowledge and means to save him.”
    *****

    Mespo, you ask the salient question. Since there was a policy to call 911 and she apparently didn’t do that I can’t supply a narrowly focused answer. In general though I would say that the same impulse (facts) that restrained this nurse is the same impulse that kept the non-torturing guards at Abu Ghraib from sawing “hey! knock that s*** off or I’m reporting you” and the the Wall Street wonks that knew the economy was being looted from contacting reporters and writing op-eds.

    You’re looking (and I’m right there with you) for some personal leadership and integrity- give him the inhaler and the fallout be damned- but that is not the norm. The norm is to be a follower, to be cowed by fear of un-named consequences, to seek the safety of moral apathy. If you acquiesce you can get by or get rich or remain anonymous. In a culture where whistle-bowers are hounded and sanctioned and demonized from the highest levels of government on down (instead of being awarded medals and having high-schools named after them) what are we taught is the appropriate response?

    But if you want to fire up a lantern and wander the streets I’ll join you, I’ll even bring a bottle of something to keep us warm on our, I fear, nearly futile journey.

    Aside: you know how you instill a fear of the law? You make it so complex that no one understands it beyond knowing that if ‘they’ want you for some reason, ‘they’ve’ got you. Like tax law historically and now criminal law. (Resisting without contact, srsly?) Maybe she had so many regulations and policy statements to follow she just couldn’t keep them all straight or remember them all and was paralyzed by fear. On some level, that could be considered a success.

  95. SlingTrebuchet, great clip, I dont ascribe to its premis but I really liked “Sliders”. Thanks.

  96. Ahh mespo, (warning, appears to be OT … but isn’t)

    “Sometimes you need a mob filled with justifiable righteous indignation.”

    You did that on purpose and I tried, I really tried to just let it go.

    I went about my daily routine preparing for the big weekend (I get to ride in the parade in the back of a decorated pick-up truck as Queen of the Treehuggers and distribute small trees for planting to the gathered rabble along the parade route. I know, I know … you’re envious as all hell!)

    But, alas-alack, I could not just let it go.

    The following clip is from one of my favorite cult-classics, Rustler’s Rhapsody. It’s a marvelously entertaining comedy loaded with great symbolism. In this particular clip we see the mob on the left (all with pistols) who represent the big business interests of the cattle barons and railroad tycoons … the Madsonians, if you will, facing off against the mob on the right (all with rifles) who represent the interests of farmers and sheepherders or Jeffersonians.

    Each mob is chocked full of “justifiable righteous indignation” and the outcome is predictable. Mobs never listen to reason, especially those mobs who envision themselves as filled with justifiable righteous indignation. Never.

  97. blouise, love the clip. notice too that the guy fired the first shot was the one left standing. ain’t it the truth.

  98. http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/05/25/school-nurse-denies-student-asthma-inhaler-because-she-cant-find-parental-consent-form/#more-88802
    ———————–
    the vid on the Fox site is interesting….for all the talk about a ‘full blown attack’ the student and his Mom never mention going to the doctor. So I guess the life threatening crises had passed by the time Mom arrived ????

    I would need to know if the nurse did what nurses are trained to do ie;EXAMINE her patient…ie; check his nail beds, flaring nostrils, accessory muscle use, could he speak, wheezing audible and auscultated throughout lung fields, cough present, pulse and BP, O2 sat via pulse Oximetry, state of consciousness…which many of the differring articles relay as being ‘passed out’ or ‘almost passingout’ or ‘slumped against wall’ but which is NOT relayed by the student in this vid. who says he told the principle he had caught his breath and could make it to the Nurses office. What I see is a mother who was terrified (and maybe feeling a little guilty for not keeping up with the required paperwork…) …and a student who probably became very frightened indeed when all Hell broke loose around him. When Mommy arrived was she screaming at everyone, did she DRIVE him to the hospital (he was after all about to be dead….) was he in need of steroids and nebulizers to stabilize his breathing and normalize his gas exchange????
    Was there an important final exam that day that coud prevent his graduation????

    yes, more facts would be helpfull…

  99. “Isn’t justice dependant on facts?”

    No, not really. It is dependant upon those “facts” found by the fact-finder based on “admissible evidence” pursuant to a set of specific instructions given to the fact finder.

    Justice, or substantial justice as required by due process and meted out by courts, is not concerned with truth or fairness per se. It is primarily concerned with giving aggrieved parties a dispute resolution process sufficient to prevent resort to the old hue and cry,

    I still vividly recall the law professor’s retort to a studen’st protestations that a particular result was not fair: “You want fair? Go cry to your Mommy.”

  100. Oro Lee,

    Your post struck a chord, and I cross posted it in one of the Zimmerman/Martin threads,
    http://jonathanturley.org/2012/05/18/new-evidence-in-zimmerman-case-undermines-prosecutions-case-on-second-degree-murder-charge
    … where a sub/intertwined thread has touched on more general questions of justice as related to the death penalty.

    I realise that doing so might exacerbate that derailment, but your post is so god that it’s worth the price IMO.

  101. “Justice, or substantial justice as required by due process and meted out by courts, is not concerned with truth or fairness per se.” Oro Lee
    ——————————————-
    I don’t think I can understand this statement given that the law is footed in ethics and testimony is given ‘under oath’ w/threat of charge of perjury if that is not adhered to.

  102. Woosty,

    I think Oro is talking about practical matters, whereas you are talking about theoretical matters.

    Any time I sit in a courtroom, I expect to hear perjury as a matter of course.
    The difficulty is in deciding which side is committing perjury.

  103. Woosty is the only professional medical person here today.
    Her partial list of indications of respiratory crisis are enough to prove that.

    And Woosty is the one that says there is a reality, let us examine that before judgement. No, we rave based on our experiences, beliefs, theories, principles. whatever will do for us.

    The sad fact is the corps of lawyers, who work in the reality of the injustice we have, defending a rush to judgement and a willingness to cast the nurse under the bus, sans facts or legal evidence being examined professionally and in admissible form.

    Americans seem to believe that a perfect world can be regulated from. And departures should be punished without recourse to reality.

    Those who cite the laws defending the nurse are assuming that the nurse’s training and her employer had informed her. Prove that if you will.

    What are the stats? Who usually bites the dust, not the suers who point at one thing or another to fault the underdog.

    You DON’T KNOW THE FACTS, ANY OF YOU.
    So Woosty wins by default.

    And here’s a truth to take with you, it is proven many times every day:

    IT IS ALWAYS THE ONE IN THE FRONT LINE WHO GETS HURT.

    Not the principals, the superintedant of schools, or the Generals in the Pentagon, or the Presidents in office.

  104. Sling what is the difference between a situation being testified to in theoretical truth vs practical truth? Because if there is a difference then the ‘justice’ system is nothing more than theatre with big weapons, big hankerins, and a bigger ego. Our ‘justice’ system, practically speaking, is as Oro Lee says the part charged with administering due process and meted out by courts. That is a societal role not a private one. If actual truth (based in facts and law) vs ‘practical’ truth (based in something else) is a distinction then the ‘justice’ system is potentially and dangerously serving a small part of society against the whole and has abdicated its role and usefulness to society. The legal industry, is a ‘service’ industry and demands the same ethics as any other service industry.

  105. This place, while interesting, resembles more and more a place where too many (not all) vent their frustrations and illusions, delusions and more…..for which I have no words.
    But being the only crap game in town…….

  106. Woosty,
    You asked…..Yes, it is here in Sweden I was writing about. I state only the facts as I know them. But should make it clearer, when I change bases in my references.

  107. Woosty,

    I don’t wish to pick a fight with you, so take this as at least partly humorous:
    “The legal industry, is a ‘service’ industry and demands the same ethics as any other service industry.”
    You mean like the banks?

    Note:
    Oh oh! A disturbance in the force is warning me NOT to click on ‘Post Comment’
    I had mistyped ‘humorous’ as ‘hunourous’
    So auto-correct suggested ‘sulphurous’. Hmmmmmm!

    This must be a sign from the Universe that I should perhaps consider having a nice cup of herbal tea and retire to my chaise longue.

    Ah what the hell…. clicking now….

  108. Blouise17: “I went about my daily routine preparing for the big weekend (I get to ride in the parade in the back of a decorated pick-up truck as Queen of the Treehuggers and distribute small trees for planting to the gathered rabble along the parade route. I know, I know … you’re envious as all hell!) ”
    ****

    I AM! That is so cool! You will be fabulous as royalty. Should we call you ‘Your Highness’ (a title I once was associated with for different reasons) or just append ‘Queen of the Treehuggers’ onto Blouise17? Have a great time and don’t forget to do that little ‘majestic’ wave:

  109. SlingTrebuchet
    1, May 25, 2012 at 7:17 pm
    Woosty,

    I don’t wish to pick a fight with you, so take this as at least partly humorous:
    “The legal industry, is a ‘service’ industry and demands the same ethics as any other service industry.”
    You mean like the banks?
    ————————————–
    Big grin. And no, I respect your opinion and am happy that there is a forum that allows discussion on this level…even if we don’t agree.

    Do you think banks think they are a service industry?

  110. “Do you think banks think they are a service industry?”

    I actually snorted my iced tea when I read that. :D

  111. Woosty=^..^ : “If actual truth (based in facts and law) vs ‘practical’ truth (based in something else) is a distinction then the ‘justice’ system is potentially and dangerously serving a small part of society against the whole and has abdicated its role and usefulness to society.”
    ****

    Actually, when you put it that way, our Justice system seems to fit that description pretty well IMO. I attributed it to corruption though, the nature of truth didn’t enter my consideration. Maybe I’ll have to rethink the matter.

  112. lotta,

    All the decorations are being created by Boy and Girl Scouts including my crown. The joys of a small town!

    Perhaps this number by Queen fits:

    But (don’t tell the scouts) I prefer Queen Latifah’s:

  113. bettykath

    blouise, love the clip. notice too that the guy fired the first shot was the one left standing. ain’t it the truth.

    ——————————————————-

    for sure ;)

  114. What is happening to people? It used to be that stories like this made me ask “You’re joking, right? Right?” Now I just chew another antacid tablet. One of my father’s old saws comes to mind. “Compassion, hard work, and critical thinking are the solutions to all man’s problems. A lack of them is the cause. Just care about people, make the best decisions you can, and accept the consequences of your own decisions.”

    Does Florida have any kind of “Good Samaritan” immunity statute? Texas law does provide one, though I don’t know if it would apply to someone who is acting with a supposed “expertise” in administering care or service as an employee of the government. For example, if I administer CPR to someone I found lying unresponsive outside my front door, and I break their ribs, or I’m unsuccessful in resuscitating them, I’m immune from litigation in Texas, provided I was acting in good faith to render aid at the time. Does this not apply to a school? I dunno, but frankly, I’d rather risk going to jail, losing my job, and getting sued, than watch someone die in front of me. Liberal, conservative, socialist, capitalist, communist or anarchist, at what point does your fear of personal consequences outweigh basic human decency?

  115. CLH
    Over 50% will remain passive accdg to stats.
    You are, I trust, making this a hypotheticle, since we dkon’t know the actual facts yet. But adding to the hue and cry for revenge often achieves that, not justice.

  116. Bettykath, It’s Blouise, Queen of the Treehuggers that will be on the float handing out the tree seedlings- I’m just stuck here and ‘green’ with envy :-)

  117. Blouise, I bet the decorations and your crown will be grand. It sounds like it’s going to be a lovely holiday for you and the scouts. And don’t you be indoctrinating those Girl Scouts with any of that secular humanism and social justice you’re into, the Papal spies are everywhere and they’ve already got their eyes on that organization for its ghodless ways. :-)

    Thanks for the ‘Chicago’ vid, Queen Latifah stole the movie and I enjoyed watching that particular crime.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/05/11/152506374/catholic-bishops-are-investigating-the-girl-scouts

  118. My son has asthma, countless times have we went to the E.R.in fear for his life. Watching, hearing an attack is horrible to watch under any circumstances. Not just for the parent, but for an average bystander also. How any human being can watch a full blown asthma attack and do nothing is beyond my comprehension. As a trained professional she knew what the consequences could have been and yet chose to do nothing. My child, 11 yrs., carries his inhaler with him at all times. I am curious as to why this child was not allowed to carry his as well. Let me guess, another of the school’s policy….

  119. My son has asthma, countless times have we went to the E.R.in fear for his life. Watching, hearing an attack is horrible to watch under any circumstances. Not just for the parent, but for an average bystander also. How any human being can watch a full blown asthma attack and do
    nothing is beyond my comprehension. As a trained professional she knew what the consequences could have been and yet chose to do nothing. My child, 11 yrs., carries his inhaler with him at all times. I am curious as to why this child was not allowed to carry his as well. Let me guess, another of the school’s policy….The nurse is in need of treatment. Unfortunately, the kind she needs you can only be born with.

  120. “I dunno, but frankly, I’d rather risk going to jail, losing my job, and getting sued, than watch someone die in front of me. Liberal, conservative, socialist, capitalist, communist or anarchist, at what point does your fear of personal consequences outweigh basic human decency?” CLH
    —————————————————————————————-
    “My son has asthma, countless times have we went to the E.R.in fear for his life. Watching, hearing an attack is horrible to watch under any circumstances. Not just for the parent, but for an average bystander also. How any human being can watch a full blown asthma attack and do
    nothing is beyond my comprehension. ” anonymous
    —————–
    —————–
    Really CLH? You would (hypothetically) risk that?
    Anonymous, are you sure that is what happened???? You weren’t there….

    When the law has become so aggressive and unreasonable as to make people stop and actually think of personal repercussions should they do the right thing then, well, I believe that is where we are.
    When I was on the stand after being accused of bad things as PR in a probate, the monster law firm had hired an ‘expert’ to testify…..he lied and misconstrued to thier advantage and actually said to me, on the way out of the courtroom…”sorry, I’ve got kids to feed”. The accusations were never proved, most were absurd.[the monster sized corporate law firm suffered little,I became ill, the small estate was devasted].

    I’m ‘guessing’ that that nurse has kids too….and wishes like hell that that mother or that kid had stayed on top of thier responsibilities…so as not to risk HIS life!(nevermnd put her at such risk of loss of life). Instead they are comfortable scorching her, maybe costing her her job, the town $$$$, and public disdain…..they couldn’t see how they were the CAUSE?
    wow, I’ll bet they are great neighbors…..

    The ‘law’ has become a personal playground for some and a weapon against many.
    How do you suppose people will act? Some of you are very generous with other peoples lives and money….not so much maybe with your own?

  121. Don;t know if anyone commented on it but Benjamin Ward, the NYC school chancellor, in the 80’s I believe, died from an asthma attack. Sometimes good samaritan rules, not if the paper was signed or not (and yet how many times have we heard of someone fired because they stopped a robbery – the rules have all turned upside down.

  122. Woosty
    You’re right. I wasn’t there. I can only go by what I read. The parents, knowing how fast an asthma attack can happen, were neglectful of there responsibilities also. I mostly just read comments from everyone on here, from every subject, including yours. And I think you would have done the same as CLH and myself. Don’t blast me for thinking that about you. It’s a good thing. You wouldn’t take the chance of that child dying when you had the means to stop it. Kids to feed, how atrocious. No wonder you feel like you do.

  123. ” at what point does your fear of personal consequences outweigh basic human decency?’~ CLH
    ————————————–
    I don’t think it’s decent to accuse people of horrible deeds all the while ascribing to them your own personal biased motivations.

    I don’t think that’s decent at all.

  124. We’ve had too many close calls. Even vented my son on one occasion. That has probably made me overly critical of the nurse.

  125. Woosty:

    I certainly understand your feelings about a justice system in which experts can be paid to say almost anything. I have always advocated court approved experts who render unbiased opinions. Your experience however has made you callous to this situation.

    The parents are NOT responsible here. To make them so elevates form over substance as I’ve said. We ALL have an obligation to assist a child we see in distress regardless of whether the paperwork is there or not. You are not exonerated from responsibility simply because you have a crutch to lean on.

    Even in our fractured, illogical society, I cannot imagine a jury penalizing a nurse for acting to fulfill her oath in an extreme situation. Never seen one; never will.

  126. mespo,

    I have never worked for a public or private school system but I have long been a critic of parents who slough responsibility for their child’s health, manners, moral indoctrination, etc onto the employees of the school system. You and I went round and round on this subject years ago agreeing, in the end, to “somewhat” disagree. (To jog your memory, we discussed your father’s experiences and responsibilities in the education field.)

    Woosty is simply repeating the fact that, emotionalism aside, we don’t know enough about the situation to determine, with any degree of certainty, why the nurse did or did not take certain actions. We do know that the parents neglected to sign the form that would have guaranteed treatment for their son and thus far, the only people talking are the kid and his mother. Given the nature of their law suit, spinning the facts to their advantage is to be expected. Whether or not that advantage stands up to cross examination is yet to be seen.

    That is what impressed me about Woosty’s position and why I took a breath and amended my original stance.

  127. lotta,

    The Scouts (Boys and Girls) have assured me that they know what poison ivy looks like and will not be weaving it into my crown.

  128. lotta,

    If you get a chance, could you go over to the thread from last week “The Lure of Certainty …” and expand on something you wrote:

    “The altruism of embracing uncertainty, the big uncertainties and the little ones, is IMO a luxury brought with very good times or very bad times.”

  129. Blouise,

    You make some good points in your response to Mespo. I was an elementary teacher for more than three decades. There were numerous occasions when our school nurse, secretary, or we classroom teachers had to spend valuable time calling/contacting parents in order to remind them that they needed to return emergency information health forms, field trip permission slips, etc., to the school. There were also instances when we had to contact parents on the morning of a scheduled field trip to “re-remind” them that the school had to get written permission from them or their children wouldn’t be allowed to go on the trips with their classes. Near the end of my teaching career, I found that there were even some parents that I had to “parent.” Fortunately, the great majority of parents were always responsible. It’s the few who aren’t who cause headaches for schools–and sometimes problems for their own children.

    That said, if I were a school nurse or administrator, I wouldn’t take a chance with a child who was having an asthmatic attack.

  130. mespo727272
    1, May 27, 2012 at 8:09 am
    Woosty:

    I certainly understand your feelings about a justice system in which experts can be paid to say almost anything. I have always advocated court approved experts who render unbiased opinions. Your experience however has made you callous to this situation.
    ————————————————–
    I have never been called callous in my entire life and in fact have been told just the opposite…that my sensibilities have often been a detriment to myself. I don’t agree w/that either…being sensitive often makes others uncomfortable as it heightens ones perception of a situation and including the understanding of others behaviors. It has on occasion made me a target but also made me more compassionate, not less so.

    What do you get out of calling someone who disagrees w/you ‘callous’…?

    In my situation, The expert wasn’t paid to ‘say almost anything’ he was either misinformed deliberately to effect self serving odds or he was paid to lie….or both.
    It’s amazing the damage that mischaracterization will do.The monster law firm decided to ‘cover thier asses’ by attacking me offensively, aggressively and without facts or evidence to support themselves…so they ‘manufactured’ thier argument knowing that time and argument would give them what they wanted….which had nothing to do with anything pertinent to the case. [much like your statement].
    Any coward knows that is how to win a ‘fight’ even if you are the only side fighting. [You can ask Iraq about that.]
    If the topic of this column were ‘court experts’ your criticism would be appropriate and not at cross purposes with the discussion….

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_124582.html

  131. Mespo, my mother was in a nursing assistance situation, inpatient, but had signed a number of blank checks that her home health aide(s) filled out and cashed for full week’s salaries.
    I tried to get her declared financially incapacitated. The court assigned the psychiatrist who evaluated her. For some reason my 2 sisters were there with her.
    The psychiatrist opined that, among other things, my mother had no psychiatric history. Only problem was she was repeatedly hospitalized, had ECT on a number of occasions and hx of psych diagnoses.
    This doc may have been assigned by the court but unbiased he was not.
    At the end of the day anyone can be bought by anyone, appointed or hired.

  132. Woosty:

    “I have never been called callous in my entire life and in fact have been told just the opposite…”

    *****************

    That’s likely true. I didn’t cal you callous as a character trait. I said you were callous to this situation. There’s a big difference. i always find you reasonable and empathetic. That is why I am so surprised that you, like Elaine M.and BLouise, choose to focus on the parents rather than the needs of the child. No matter how you slice it diverting attention from the immediate issue of a possible fatal situation for a child is callous.

    AS to complete information: The simple fact is we have to judge on the information we have. We NEVER have perfect or complete information. Ask any judge. We do the best we can with what we have.

  133. If this school nurse is an RN or LPN, she should be reported to her licensing board for investigation and possible sanctions. If she is only a CNA, I am not sure what sanctions could be imposed on her as a paraprofessional. People who get hired as school nurses should–you know–actually know something about nursing. Given that schools are underfunded, I seriously doubt she is an RN, and probably not even an LPN. The term “warm body” comes to mind.

  134. In the area where I live, school nurses go through a rigorous screening process and most are RNs. CNAs should not be working as school “nurses”, though I realize that its a growing trend.

  135. mespo,

    If you had read all of my comments, you should have seen that I faulted the school nurse/administration for not having done anything to help the student. I don’t CHOOSE to focus on the parents. I’ve been trying to provide the perspective of someone who worked as a public school educator for more than three decades. In a discussion on this topic, I think it important to address the responsibilities of parents today in regard to their making sure that they provide schools with all the necessary medical information and signed forms to ensure their children’s health. I don’t consider that diverting attention. I think it pertinent to the discussion. If that makes me “callous” in your mind–so be it.

  136. anon nurse: True dat! The school nurse should be either an RN or LPN, but budget constraints are making schools cut corners whenever they can. All too many administrators see the school nurse as only someone who hands out Band Aids for cuts and scratches and doles out pills if they are on the approved list in approved bottles. My wife was an RN and former Head Nurse (Oncology) and my DiL is a critical care RN. My mom was an RN and former Director of Nurses at a large teaching hospital. Kind of the family business. I have not discussed this incident with my DiL yet, but have a pretty good idea what she is going to say. If this had happened to our daughter, my wife would have been down at the school and metastasized all over both the nurse and principal. Don’t mess with red headed nurses of Scottish and Irish descent. All the stories about fiery tempers are true.

    As for forms, there were several instances where the school lost our permission forms, or could not locate the. As for a kid in the middle of an asthma attack, who the hell has time to go look in the filing cabinet for a damn form? Something I learned a long time ago was that middle level bureaucrats never actually make things happen, since the only real power they have is to obstruct and delay.

    Glad this “nurse” was not at our daughter’s high school her Senior year when one of her friends collapsed in the corridor. The girl had a heart transplant and her body started to reject it. The school staff reacted quickly and the kid was airlifted out, but died at the hospital the next day. That is about as far outside the bureaucratic box as you can get.

  137. ” That is why I am so surprised that you, like Elaine M.and BLouise, choose to focus on the parents rather than the needs of the child. No matter how you slice it diverting attention from the immediate issue of a possible fatal situation for a child is callous.”~Mespo
    ————————————————————————
    In this instance, Mespo, I have the luxury of being a Nurse and responding to the situation as a Nurse, not a Lawyer. I am responding to a scenRIO on a blog. In my mind, in this forum, I can do more to add to this topic if I look at the situation wholistically and not just as someone looking to find someone to blame. IF I WERE to look for someone to blame, it would certainly not, in this instance ESPECIALLY, be the Nurse ALONE. To effect positive change so that this scenario is not repeated, I would suggest that turning the probably underpaid public servant into some kind of monster or whipping post for overworked, possibly struggling, and perenially guilt angry mothers, is counterproductive when ALL THE FACTS ARE NOT AVAILABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    :p

  138. re the facts, an anecdote. I helped work with a 10 year old kid when I was in high school. He was misdiagnosed as autistic but aftedr 6 weeks and my exclusive to him attention, he blossomed, Went to take him to state fair. Picked him up at his home and asked mother did she have the bag lunch for him she was asked to make. She got angry. “I have 8 kids, I don’t have time for this kid to do that.”
    Without context Wootsy and others are absolutely right. We don;t know what the parents did or did not bring to the situation.

  139. Elaine/mespo/Blouise/W=^..^

    I think all of this still comes back to what Mike A. said earlier:

    “With regard to the Volusia County school matter, the school nurse should have immediately called 911 when it became apparent that the student could not breathe. If she had his prescription inhaler in her possession, she should have administered the specified dosage to him regardless of the absence of a signed permission slip. Had she done so, I believe that she would have been immune to suit under Florida’s Good Samaritan statute. The school should also have a policy in place covering medical emergencies in situations in which a signed parental consent is not on file, and school employees should be familiar with that policy. Instead, it appears as though the nurse suffered some sort of bureaucratic brain freeze and did nothing. This hardly qualifies as a ‘damned if you do and damned if you don’t’ incident.”

    That the parents didn’t have all the i’s dotted and the school didn’t have all the t’s crossed does not change that the school and its employee the nurse acted without that all too rare commodity – common sense – in a situation where someone’s life was in danger. This is precisely the kind of situation Good Samaritan laws exist to create a shield against liability for and the schools reaction somewhat shows that it is enamored of its own “power” by genuflecting to their own policies or lack thereof over doing what just about any person finding this child with an inhaler in distress on the street would have done.

  140. AS to complete information: The simple fact is we have to judge on the information we have. We NEVER have perfect or complete information. Ask any judge. We do the best we can with what we have.
    —————————————
    Mespo, asking as a Nurse, does the legal system representatives not have a duty to fact find before casting potentially damaging judgements or accusations?

    Because it seems to me that the climate that is out there right now has created so much fear that it would take an uber-fool to disagree with the loudest voice, no matter what the truth is….

  141. I know a wonderful RN who has a flawless history and an impressive resume but she is not allowed to be a school nurse (which she has tried four times to do!) because she was mistakenly arrested by the FBI in 1989, after which they jailed her, unjailed her, apologized and let her go and then she had to pay $12,000 to get the thing straightened out etc. etc. etc. and then, 30 years later, it came back because somewhere like SC or NC or Tennessee or something had thrown her name in a database that had tripped the wire for working in public schools after criminal conduct. THEN she had to hire lawyers and spend another $14,000 to expunge records that were not real criminal records but she couldn’t do it because the criminal records she needed to show that she was improperly arrested were already expunged, leaving her unable to prove anything.

    When I see shit like this I think about how SHE would have responded to a kid struggling for breath; she would have moved heaven and earth to save that kid no matter what came own on her later. But she can’t practice in the schools. The corruption in our courts affects almost everything in our lives, one way or another, eventually.

  142. Gene,

    “That the parents didn’t have all the i’s dotted and the school didn’t have all the t’s crossed does not change that the school and its employee the nurse acted without that all too rare commodity – common sense – in a situation where someone’s life was in danger.”

    **********

    Haven’t I already made it clear that I thought that the nurse or school administrators were at fault for not doing anything to help the student who was having an asthmatic attack?

    Some of my previous comments:
    – The school was definitely at fault for not calling 911.
    – School systems usually have rules about measures that should be taken in case of a medical emergency. This system did–but they weren’t followed.
    – I agree that there is no excuse for the child not having been given any medical attention.
    – Evidently, there was a policy in place–but the nurse didn’t follow it.
    – It looks like all school personnel involved in this sad situation were at fault. Not one of them did anything to help the boy. It wasn’t just the nurse who had a “brain freeze.”
    – The nurse or someone at the school should have called 911. Could you stand there and watch a child struggling for his breath and not do anything to help him?
    – That said, if I were a school nurse or administrator, I wouldn’t take a chance with a child who was having an asthmatic attack.
    – I’d say that many employers these days don’t want workers/employees who use common sense and good judgment, who think for themselves, who speak out and/or dare to criticize workplace policies and the status quo–they want workers/employees who live by/follow the company rules.

  143. Malisha
    1, May 31, 2012 at 10:55 am
    ————————————
    yes, corruption or mistake, the widened economic and social gap have created these fears. I get it, I saw the vid of the angry ‘burn the nurse’ mother….no one wants to deal w/her. No one wants to look at the source of the problems….just blame the nurse, who by the way, if my experience is any indication….has probably been screaming to fix the problem for years and whose entreaties have fallen on deaf ears…..

  144. Elaine,

    I wasn’t being critical of what you had said. I was merely pointing to Mike A’s excellent (and I think on point) earlier summary.

  145. Gene,

    I thought I had made the point that one didn’t NEED to have written permission or to have all the i’s dotted and t’s crossed in order to call 911 in case of this medical emergency. Couldn’t that be inferred from my comments?

  146. Elaine,

    I can only say “I wasn’t being critical of what you had said” so many ways.

    If you choose to take offense after that?

    That is your decision.

  147. Gene H.,

    I don’t mean to appear testy. I’ve felt frustrated because some people on this thread appear to think that I’ve implied/said that the nurse shouldn’t have done anything to help the student because she didn’t have written permission. That is not the fact. I’ve also been accused of being callous because I’ve brought things into the discussion that I thought were pertinent to the subject at hand.

  148. Elaine M:

    You are not appearing testy; you just want you point clear. My problem with some distracting comments about the role of the parents is that it seems to imply some level of exoneration for the nurse, It is no excuse in my mind if the form was signed or not. Woosty’s “Chicken Little” approach (likely caused by her own bad experience in court elsewise why would she mention it) to caring for a critically ill child is scary to me and seems at odds with common sense, common decency, and the oath the nurse took. My only objection to your commentary on the role of the parents is that is takes the cutting edge off the essential point you make that the nurse was ultimately responsible during the critical time and she –and the school — failed miserably.

  149. Woosty:

    “IF I WERE to look for someone to blame, it would certainly not, in this instance ESPECIALLY, be the Nurse ALONE.”

    *********************

    You can blame anyone else you please: the nurse’s mom for having her, her nursing school for graduating her with little apparent conscience, the school district for hiring her without checking to see if she has a pulse, the child’s doctor for not sky writing above the school that any responsible adult has permission to administer the life saving meds he prescribed to the child when the child is writhing on the ground desperate for oxygen, even the nurse’s auto mechanic for getting her car to operate properly that fateful day, but you cannot blame the parents whose only “crime” was sending their kid to school that day expecting that the public “servants” they regularly pay under pain of prison would try to help their child avoid a foreseeable fatal danger that everyone knew the child was exposed to. Blaming parents for not filling out some bureaucratic form (even assuming it was ever sent to them which is in grave doubt) is excuse making of the lowest order. Our public employees work for us not the other way ’round, and when they don’t perform they should be gone, No muss, no fuss … just gone. That’s why they call it a public trust. We should be able to “trust” them to have more sense than God gave a billy goat!

  150. mespo,

    You perceive that I implied some level of exoneration for the nurse because I made “distracting” comments. I don’t. I never said nor meant to imply that the nurse had an excuse for not helping that student when he was having an asthmatic attack. Did I take the cutting edge off the essential point? I don’t know. Maybe. Still, I think it important to bring up parents’ responsibilities when it comes to the issue of their child’s well being. I saw quite a lot during my many years of teaching–including parents who sent sick children to school–some with high fevers–because the parents wanted to go Christmas shopping or get work done around the house; parents of means who sent their child to school without lunch or lunch money two or three times a week over an extended period of time–even after notes were sent home to them; parents who forgot to pick up their child after school was dismissed. (He sat in the front lobby for hours while school staff tried to contact his parents. Someone even drove over to the child’s house to see if the parents or someone responsible might be at home). I could go on. I always took my parental responsibilities very seriously–not all parents do.

  151. “….it would take an uber-fool to disagree with the loudest voice, no matter what the truth is….”
    ———————————
    yup, apparently that’s me too…

    Mespo, as a lawyer, you may have more information about this than I but given what I have read, the video of the ‘child’ and his mother, the fact that there is NO STATEMENT from the Nurse or the school other than to say that they support her actions, then at THIS TIME, I am not willing to come down on any 1 person as causal. There is something that needs addressed. That is what I see. As far as blamng, that Sir, would be your very loud voice.

    You may end up being correct, I may end up ultimately agreeing with you, until then I’m not willing to make another victim.

    As far as public servants go, as a general class they deserve better protections as they are usually catching crap from both sides of the fence…..

  152. Elaine M:

    All that you’ve said is true, but are you willing to penalize the child for the failings of the parent? That is the essence of the issue.

  153. Woosty:

    And, given new information, I may end up agreeing with you. But that “new information” must be very compelling.

  154. mespo,

    “All that you’ve said is true, but are you willing to penalize the child for the failings of the parent? That is the essence of the issue.’

    Where did I imply that I thought that a child should be penalized for the failings/irresponsibility of his parents? That is something that I would never do/never have done–nor is it something that I would ever suggest.

  155. Woosty,

    You made the right call. Unlike some of the others here, you understand that there are two sides to every story, and up to this point we have only heard one of those sides.

    Fact: Not all asthma attacks are emergencies warranting a call to 911.
    Fact: When an inhaler is not made available it does not always constitute an emergency warranting a call to 911.

    The school nurse has sufficient training to make the decision as to whether or not this was an emergency necessitating a call to 911. The school nurse evidently determined that 911 did not need to be called.

    So, we have a medical expert who decided not to call 911, and we have a mother who screwed up by not signing the waiver that would have enabled the nurse to provide the inhaler saying that the nurse should have called 911. – As I would in most cases, I’m going to side with the expert until such time that another expert can convince me that the nurse did the wrong thing.

  156. MINRIX:

    “You made the right call. Unlike some of the others here, you understand that there are two sides to every story, and up to this point we have only heard one of those sides.”

    ***********************

    What’s the other side to the feds response to Hurricane Katrina? How about BP’s response to the spill in the Gulf of Mexico? What about McCain’s pick of Sarah Palin as the person a heartbeat away from the nuclear codes? Or what about Three Mile Island? How about the Italian boat captain trying to get his crew a better view of shore?Need more info in these cases, too?

    Two sides to the story is a myth sometimes, but usually spewed by people unhappy with the obvious facts and resulting condemnation. You can wait like Adlai Stevenson until Hell freezes over but I bet you’ll not find one compelling reason for a nurse to sit idly by and watch a kid almost die while doing nothing.

  157. Elaine M:

    “Where did I imply that I thought that a child should be penalized for the failings/irresponsibility of his parents? That is something that I would never do/never have done–nor is it something that I would ever suggest.”

    ***************************

    Good, Then we must necessarily agree that the parent’s role in this is irrelevant to the duty owed the child by the nurse.

  158. Mespo, I’m glad you wrote this because the “two sides of everything” song and dance has infuriated me for quite a while now, half a dozen decades. When somebody does something TO somebody else, there’s only ONE SIDE: NO, or STOP, or WRONG, or the like. The idea that it always “takes two to tango” is utterly foolish.

    One time I spoke with a journalist who had written a story about a case — skewed it completely trying to be “fair.” I said, “How could you?” He said, “I thought I came right down the middle of the road!” I said, “There’s no middle of that road!” He hemmed and hawed and I added, “If you covered the Holocaust like this you’da said, ‘The Germans and the Jews had a big fight and the Germans won.'” So he hung up on me.

    Sometimes there’s only one side to something; that doesn’t mean criminal defendants don’t get a fair trial and constitutional protections, but c’mon, sometimes wrong just has to be WRONG.

  159. You can wait like Adlai Stevenson until Hell freezes over but I bet you’ll not find one compelling reason for a nurse to sit idly by and watch a kid almost die while doing nothing.
    ————————
    I don’t think that’s what happened…not by what I’ve read. Your ” find one compelling reason for a nurse to sit idly by and watch a kid almost die while doing nothing.”.

    And I find it interesting the characterization of ‘child’ by the legal system can be applied in some instances and not others when the person in question can be as young as ….what…..9yrs old and tried as an adult in some cases????
    Mespo I am guessing you are a parent….and identifying with the helplessness parents feel when they send their kids to school.
    I hope you are not also someone who thinks that defunding public schools further in favour of the private sector will see an increase in staff and sanity in the schools….

  160. Woosty:

    “I don’t think that’s what happened…not by what I’ve read. Your ” find one compelling reason for a nurse to sit idly by and watch a kid almost die while doing nothing.”.

    ***************************

    From the article: “It’s like something out of a horror film. The person just sits there and watches you die,” said Michael Rudi, 17. “She sat there, looked at me and she did nothing.”

    Sounds like that’s exactly what she did.

  161. Woosty:

    “Mespo I am guessing you are a parent….and identifying with the helplessness parents feel when they send their kids to school.”

    ********************************

    I’m the son of a public school administrator and teacher who believes home schooling and private schools are detrimental to a democracy. I acknowledge their right to exist but I question their wisdom in a society that regards itself as a melting pot.

  162. mespo,

    I can see that you only recognize as relevant that which you want to consider. Someday that will bite you in the butt.

    The nurse was legally prohibited from providing the inhaler. If she did give the kid his inhaler anyway, she risked losing her job (and her license).

    Would she have provided the inhaler if the symptoms were worse? Would she have called 911 if the symptoms were worse? We don’t know the answer to either of those questions. We weren’t there.

    Unlike you, the nurse didn’t have the luxury of deciding what to do without also having to consider the consequences of violating the law.

  163. A friend of mine who was a physician went to a medical conference in Italy. Doctors in other countries discussed with her their impression that “In the States you cannot practice medicine; you must practice ‘legal-limit-medicine” and judge all your actions by what the next lawsuit is going to say about what you did.”

    And she was a very good doctor. It’s so frustrating — the legalistic demands of an unconnected society make everything so fraudulent!

  164. mespo,

    Sorry, I lost track of the thread.

    You wrote: “That is why I am so surprised that you, like Elaine M.and BLouise, choose to focus on the parents rather than the needs of the child.”

    I can see how that would surprise you … if it were true.

    I realize what the parents have said the needs of their child were in that situation and I realize that the situation was a direct result of the parents failure to meet their child’s needs. But important information is missing.

    My mother was a nurse as were the majority of her friends. Three of my nieces are nurses. I know nurses and I know procedures they are required to follow by law.

    Before condemning the nurse, I will wait for that additional information.

  165. Malisha,

    We live in a country that has 4 lawyers to every physician. When hiring a physician hospitals have to decide if it is best to hire the physician as an employee or to bring them on as a subcontractor. In some fields of medicine, the malpractice insurance is so high that it can make providing that area of expertise to risky to offer. That’s messed up.

    I remember the story of a baby in the neonatal intensive care unit. The child was born premature. As such, the lungs were not sufficiently developed. In order to provide enough oxygen, the levels had to be increased to the point that the baby lost her eyesight. The alternative was to let the baby die.

    Of course the hospital and physicians were sued. It was their actions that caused the baby to be blinded. The alternative was to let the baby die.

    If you only knew one side, you would only know that the baby was blind because of the care provided by the hospital and their physicians.

    It is foolish to discount the other side of the story until you know what it is.

  166. MINRIX I agree with you. I was referring NOT to the idea that we discount the fact that there can be another side to the story, because most of the time there IS. What I was trying to convey is that (not in the case of your doctors saving the premie or the school nurse holding off wrecking her career in case it wasn’t necessary) there are some situations in which the “other side” — already known — is simply an “other side” that is unsustainable and should not be credited. To continue to say there is another side of the story when a bully has hurt someone, for instance, gives the bully an immense amount of power to show how right he or she is to not only do harm but to blame the victim FOR the harm.

    There are probably two sides to most stories that hit the press; the press chooses which side to portray, of course, in spite of “journalism class” cliches to the contrary. But there are some stories that, when both “sides” are viewed, clearly show that the sides go like this:

    A hurt B
    B didn’t like it
    A thought it was fine and you should hear his side of WHY

  167. http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ696540&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ696540

    —————–
    Volusia County Health Services Coordinator Cheryl Selesky said that, according to a Florida state statute, a child can carry their metered dose inhalers while at school with written permission and physician authorization, which Rudi did not have.

    “If the student was in severe distress, 911 would have been called for emergency medical assistance,” Selesky said.
    ———————————
    The Rudi’s attorney said the family wants the school nurse suspended and they plan to file a suit against the district, the nurse and even the sheriff’s office for failing to fully investigate.

    “If this isn’t a clear case of child abuse I don’t know what would be,” said the attorney.

    But school district spokeswoman Nancy Wait said state law requires administrators to confiscate undocumented prescription medication.

    “The way that it is being portrayed is not the way that it happened,” Wait said. She also said an administrator and nurse monitored Michael at all times.
    “They were never asked to call 911 if they had been asked they would have if they felt that the student was in need they would have,” Wait said.

    The school’s spokeswoman said Michael started to have some difficulty breathing but was never “on the floor suffocating.”

    The school district said they encourage all parents to make sure they file the proper paperwork each year.

    —————————————-
    Clearly this Nurse has been abused by these people who hold her GUILTY before proven innocent. Apparently the not so new hotheaded american way….

  168. There are probably two sides to most stories that hit the press; the press chooses which side to portray, of course, in spite of “journalism class” cliches to the contrary. But there are some stories that, when both “sides” are viewed, clearly show that the sides go like this:

    A hurt B
    B didn’t like it
    A thought it was fine and you should hear his side of WHY
    ————————
    Malisha, not if the press is any good at doing their job…..

  169. MINRIX:

    “In some fields of medicine, the malpractice insurance is so high that it can make providing that area of expertise to risky to offer. That’s messed up.”

    **********************

    You are making an implicit connection between the size of medical malpractice premiums and the perception that lawyers who bring frivolous malpractice claims are driving them. That’s provable bunk. Who says so? Why the medical profession itself:

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2006-releases/press05102006.html

    Consider yourself propagandized by the insurance industry. That is messed up, by the way.

  170. Woosty:

    That article really is laughable spin doctoring and more revealing than the school likely intended. Let’s go through it:

    “The way that it is being portrayed is not the way that it happened,” Wait said. She also said an administrator and nurse monitored Michael at all times.

    *******************

    Oh, a nurse bound and determined to do nothing ’cause the paperwork wasn’t correct and an administrator with likely no medical training. Maybe they could have also hired “Eric The Clown” from Seinfeld for more professional help.

    “They were never asked to call 911 if they had been asked they would have if they felt that the student was in need they would have,” Wait said.

    *************************
    Surely the gasping child should have dispassionately assessed his condition, learned of the available resources, and filed a request in triplicate for an ambulance. If the good nurse and her side-kick with the education degree deigned to agree, then and then only, might the ambulance be summoned.

    The school’s spokeswoman said Michael started to have some difficulty breathing but was never “on the floor suffocating.”

    ***********************
    Tut, tut you alarmist kid. Getting everybody all worked up just ’cause you can’t breath. Maybe if you really were sick you’d be on the floor, you faker. Let’s just wait until you turn blue before we saunter over to the pay phone down the hall and find out if any ambulances can make it over to school sometime today.

    ************************

    The school district said they encourage all parents to make sure they file the proper paperwork each year.

    Translation: it is your fault you dopey parents for not knowing and strictly following the guidelines we make for your benefit (oh and not to cover our own asses, mind you), and if you screw up and your kid dies, it’s your fault. If we screw up and your kid dies, it’s your fault. If nobody screws up and your kid dies, well … sh*t happens. You work for us, don’t you know. And we in the medical and education professions, sworn to place the well-being of those in our care above all else, why that’s just some words we have to say to get and keep our jobs. It’s all about money and budgets and lawsuits and keeping our jobs, and quite frankly, if you don’t like it, why you and your kids can go pound salt — if they are still alive.

    I think I heard this sentiment before somewhere. Seems it was spoken in French by a well-coiffed, perfumed madame with big hair.

    What a Country!

  171. MINRIX:

    “We live in a country that has 4 lawyers to every physician.”

    *************************

    That is just utter bullshit and everything after that in your comment is true to form. Let me give you the facts from the US Department of Labor:

    In 2010 there were 728,200 lawyer jobs
    In 2010 there were 691,000 physician and surgeon jobs

    That a ratio of 1.06 to 1.

    Legal tip: Lying or unknowingly repeating lies won’t help your argument.

  172. MINRIX:

    “I remember the story of a baby in the neonatal intensive care unit. The child was born premature. As such, the lungs were not sufficiently developed. In order to provide enough oxygen, the levels had to be increased to the point that the baby lost her eyesight. The alternative was to let the baby die.

    Of course the hospital and physicians were sued. It was their actions that caused the baby to be blinded. The alternative was to let the baby die.”

    ******************************

    If this occurred in the past 20 years they should have been sued. Retinopathy of prematurity, or ROP is a well known risk of premature babies and raising oxygen levels all but insures blindness. The standard of care is to decrease oxygen levels to about 90% of normal to guard against this preventable malady and keep the level stable. I suspect the baby in your sketchy scenario could have survived quite well at 90% and the hospital’s and physician’s negligence was duly remedied as they probably settled rather than face up to what happened in court. If the child was truly in extremis and trading sight for life was the ONLY alternative I suspect the hospital and MDs won the case. Like I said your stats and your stories are half-baked.

  173. ” I suspect the baby in your sketchy scenario could have survived quite well at 90% and the hospital’s and physician’s negligence was duly remedied as they probably settled rather than face up to what happened in court. ”
    ——————————–
    Mespo you are over the line.
    You are NOT a physician and your ‘suspicions ‘ are misplaced and harmful in the above statement.
    Your arguments and POV are usually gold, but this time, in this 1 sided scenario of the Nurse and asthma inhaler you refuse to admit that more information is needed…WHY???

  174. W=^..^

    “you refuse to admit that more information is needed…WHY???”

    Not to answer for mespo, but rather to supplement, because legally speaking no more information is required. Mike A really hit the nail on the head with his analysis of the matter in light of Good Samaritan laws. It was an event in extremis and exactly the kind of situation those laws were designed to address. That “the paperwork” wasn’t filled out is immaterial except as an excuse for non-action but that the school’s employees acted in with what can be construed as reckless disregard for a student’s well being and thus failing one of their most basic charges as adults in a supervisory position over children is not. This is why the Rudi family is wise to pursue suit in this instance.

  175. Woosty:

    “You are NOT a physician and your ‘suspicions ‘ are misplaced and harmful in the above statement.”

    *************************
    Seems to me the only one harmed in MINRIX’s story was the blinded child. Medical facts and standards of care are available for all the world to see. I merely stated it. You can quibble all you want about my credentials but lowering oxygen levels along with other remedial measures for ROP management are de rigueur in most hospitals for premies. That’s probably the basis for the suit, but since MINRIX just throws out some flimsy example of a tort system gone awry we’ll never know. Contrast that to the documented case of a child having difficulty breathing but medically abandoned because paperwork wasn’t signed. I’ve got plenty of facts to form a judgment based on what the SCHOOL DISTRICT admits. See my analysis of the article above.

  176. Woosty, I agree with you about the press, particularly “if it’ any good at doing its job” — but, alas —

    If I had to measure whether doctors, lawyers or the press are any good at “doing their jobs” — well, I mean —

    If you get ONE out of all of them NOT doing even a passably decent job, you’re — screwed. So what are the chances?

  177. the statement given was thus; ” In order to provide enough oxygen, the levels had to be increased to the point that the baby lost her eyesight. The alternative was to let the baby die.”
    ————————————-
    That is a legitimate scenario. Preemies are born sans surfactant die because they cannot incorporate O2 into thier immature lungs. Increasing O2 has detrimental side effects. This scenario did not give the babies relative biologic capabilities ie: age…so you CAN NOT SAY whether ANY remedial measures would have been effective or are approriate. Unless you also have a medical degree and training? You DEVIATE from the givens in your response.

    And yet you are so sure you know enough to HURT SOMEONE with a verdict.

  178. The family first demanded that the Sheriff’s office arrest the nurse. The Sheriff’s office refused to do so. Then the family hired an atty.

    Here’s the link for the atty’s statement ….

    http://www.lippmanlawoffice.com/news/new-client-michael-rudi-responds-to-the-volusia-county-school-board/

    Any of what he has to say sound familiar?

    I particularly like the way he described his client’s mother’s failure to sign the form required by state law … “perceived technicality regarding paperwork”

  179. Woosty:

    “This scenario did not give the babies relative biologic capabilities ie: age…so you CAN NOT SAY whether ANY remedial measures would have been effective or are approriate.”

    **********************

    No, I can’t but the persons most knowledgeable about the presumed case could and apparently they paid. Isn’t that proof enough? If they didn’t pay why would MINRIX bring it up at all. Bottom line it’s not your story or mine so neither of us know the facts, and judging by MINRIX’s comment neither does he/she.

  180. Blouise:

    Personally I like the mention of several eyewitnesses who directly refute the school’s statement about the boy not collapsing and being monitored. The one hero is the unnamed school official who ordered the nurse to so the right thing.

  181. “No, I can’t but the persons most knowledgeable about the presumed case could and apparently they paid. Isn’t that proof enough?” If they didn’t pay why would MINRIX bring it up at all. Bottom line it’s not your story or mine so neither of us know the facts, and judging by MINRIX’s comment neither does he/she.~Mespo
    ———————
    this is so out of left field regarding responding to a presented scenario on a blog that I don’t even know how to respond.
    But I’ll give it a shot…
    you say,
    “No, I can’t but the persons most knowledgeable about the presumed case could and apparently they paid. Isn’t that proof enough?”
    to that I say, fooey! you are graspng at straws and according to TRIX’s story :

    >I remember the story of a baby in the neonatal intensive care unit. The child was born premature. As such, the lungs were not sufficiently developed. In order to provide enough oxygen, the levels had to be increased to the point that the baby lost her eyesight. The alternative was to let the baby die.

    Of course the hospital and physicians were sued. It was their actions that caused the baby to be blinded. The alternative was to let the baby die.

    If you only knew one side, you would only know that the baby was blind because of the care provided by the hospital and their physicians.

    It is foolish to discount the other side of the story until you know what it is<

    the presumption is that the physicians lost the suit and paid.
    the presumption of the doctors, perhaps, is that the family would not have preferred a dead baby to a blind one….

    Here is MY PRESUMPTION:::::[based on personal experience so it is weighted….],

    the legal pool has been so poor at monitoring and policing itself that there are now untold uber-aggressive and ethically challenged practitioners creating and fomenting discord BECAUSE the very ACT of ACCUSATION has become financially rewarding in the extreme. Without adequate proof, without adequate process, without adequate information the lawyers are like rogue immune cells attacking the very body they are trained and sworn to protect.

    LAIDS= Lawyer Actioned Immune Dysfunctional System

    [now in this presumption you MAY call me calloused…I had a taste of getting LAID so I ain't no virgin no more…]

  182. and Mespo, you have demonstrated that you are willing to use trickery and lies to win your ‘argument’….so I’m guessing you are the kind of prick that supports the LAID by force movement….

  183. mespo,

    I always like it when disputes go to trial and good cross is done on all witnesses. Juries usually find the truth of the matter amongst all the lies.

    It’s been my experience on the two juries I served that courtroom emotionalism plays no role at all in deliberations. I know lawyers like to think it does, but juries tend to get stone cold once that door is closed.

  184. Woosty:

    I can almost hear your head exploding on this topic. Your statement that an accusation of medical malpractice is financially rewarding is just silly. The Center for State & Local Courts reports that only 20% of all malpractice cases result in ANY compensation for Plaintiffs — not adequate mind you, but “any” compensation. The average case costs Plaintiff’s lawyers about $50,000.00 out of their pockets so it’s a heck of a gamble.

    For every 6 medical errors only 1 claim is filed. (The Agency for Health Care Administration; Division of Health Quality Assurance. Reported malpractice claims by district compared to reported adverse incidents 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999.) While medical costs have increased by 113 percent since 1987, the total amount spent on medical malpractice insurance has increased by just 52 percent over that time, less than half of medical services inflation. (Bureau of Labor Statistics – Medical Services CPI; Best’s Aggregates and Averages.)

    The size of damage awards has been steady since 1991. The mean payout was $135,941 in 2001, up 8.7 percent from $125,000 in 2000. Over ten years, malpractice payouts have grown an average of 6.2 percent per year. That’s almost exactly the rate of medical inflation: an average of 6.7 percent between 1990 and 2001. (National Practitioner Data Bank and the Journal of Health Affairs, as quoted by Lorraine Woellert, Commentary: A Second Opinion on the Malpractice Plague, Business Week, March 3, 2003.)

    Here’s more fun facts about the malpractice crisis from Public Citizen:

    • Malpractice payouts by physicians and their insurers were a mere $4.5 billion in 2001 – less than 1 percent of the country’s overall health care costs of $1.4 trillion. (National Practitioner Data Bank, as quoted in Business Week, March 3, 2003.)

    • In 2001, only 895 out of 16,676 payouts, or about 5 percent, topped $1 million. (National Practitioner Data Bank, as quoted in Business Week, March 3, 2003.)

    • Premiums charged do not track losses paid, but instead rise and fall in concert with the state of the economy. When the economy is booming and investment returns are high, companies maintain premiums at modest levels; however, when the economy falters and interest rates fall, companies increase premiums in response. (J. Robert Hunter, Americans for Insurance Reform, “Medical Malpractice Insurance: Stable Losses/Unstable Rates,” October 10, 2002. See also: http://www.insurance-reform.org/StableLosses.pdf.)

    • Only 5 percent of doctors (1 out of 20) are responsible for 54 percent of malpractice payouts. (National Practitioner Data Bank, Sept. 1, 1990 – Sept. 30, 2002.)

    • Only 8 percent of doctors (1 out of 12) with 2 or more malpractice payouts have been disciplined by their state medical board. (National Practitioner Data Bank, Sept. 1, 1990 – Sept. 30, 2002.)

    • Only 17 percent of doctors (1 out of 6) who have made 5 or more malpractice payouts have been disciplined by their state medical board. (National Practitioner Data Bank, Sept. 1, 1990 – Sept. 30, 2002.)

    It’s like I thought and you’ve implied: you’re either so jaded by your own experience you can’t see straight or you’re quite thoroughly propagandized. Either way you’re showing us your gored ox and it ain’t pretty.

    .

  185. Mespo,
    if your responding to MY statement….”Here is MY PRESUMPTION:::::[based on personal experience so it is weighted….],

    the legal pool has been so poor at monitoring and policing itself that there are now untold uber-aggressive and ethically challenged practitioners creating and fomenting discord BECAUSE the very ACT of ACCUSATION has become financially rewarding in the extreme……”

    I had not made a distinction in the type of lawsuit.{ I have only been sued by lawyers who screwed up the probate of an Estate. ( And the bullying, btw, extended very far from the courthouse…)} If what you say is true of medical malpractice then good, because it really is sick to think that people make huge profits from the mistakes of professionals who practice to help other people. (But I still get perplexed over those 72 hour days…)
    Also, I do remember seeing the commercial with the extraordinarlily well dressed lawyer laughing as he says …”it’s your money! why should you have to wait????!!!!” as he pitches his law firms willingness to write off everything if they lose your lawsuit..or get your previous ‘settlement’…..just as long as you sue!

    It is the corporate law firms who game the system perhaps….but game they do.

  186. “Your statement that an accusation of medical malpractice is financially rewarding is just silly.”~ Mespo
    —————————————
    and are you sloppy or do you make these statements on purpose?

  187. Woosty:

    “I had not made a distinction in the type of lawsuit.”

    ***********************

    True enough but we were talking about a medical malpractice situation from MINRIX’s example. Forgive me for assuming continuity of conversation.

  188. Got a question for you guys. I was hospitalized, total bed rest, for a long period of time. Long story short, in all that time I was given no blood thinner, standard procedure for a bed fast person. I kept telling Doc that I had broken one of my ribs some how. I later found out that I had a blood clot from my heel to my groin, they never did discover it and sent it home with me. After other complications, went to local doc. He discovered it, but the clot went to my left lung nine times and has now calcified, which means I will have it for the rest of my life. Very painful and effects my breathing constantly. All I heard was sue, sue, sue. Never crossed my mind to sue. Now I’m being sued by the hospital because my blue cross and blue shield didn’t pay anything for some reason. My question is this, would u guys have sued if you were me?

  189. Belle, I have a dear friend who is a retired doctor and she is herself a Southern Belle and a battered woman (but she divorced the batterer long ago). If you want to contact me at MalishaGarcia@hushmail.com, I will forward your question to her, and she will help you figure out how to proceed. As is, the question has too many variables in it for anyone, layman, lawyer or physician, to answer it properly. Send me an e-mail that clearly identifies you in the SUBJECT line and I’ll send it along, OK?

    Be well.

  190. belle:

    “My question is this, would u guys have sued if you were me?”

    *******************

    I think you know the right answer here, Belle.

  191. mespo727272
    I don’t want to sue anyone. I know that’s probably hard to understand, and I’m sure I sound like a blithering idiot but I’m just not the suing kind. My thought was that I would sue for the price of hospital/doc bill. I tried to tell the lawyer that when we spoke, but he wouldn’t speak to me without an attorney, he actually hung up on me. Basically, I just want it taken off of my credit report and the bill paid. I lost my job and my ins. lost everything financially to be honest. I had to sign up on my social security/disability. I got it as soon as the s.s. law would allow. No denial, no hearing. and all I wanted to do was go back to work really.
    I also called my former employee and told her about the situation, she told me she would handle the ins. co. herself. Still getting calls from the law firm, and she hasn’t contacted me nor returned my calls.
    If I were going to sue anyone it would be the ins. co. And I would have to hire a lawyer for that. Right? Now tell me that’s not screwed up.

  192. belle:

    Here’s a shocker: Almost every client in my office would rather not sue. They just get treated like you’ve been treated and they are sick of it and have no other recourse. Personally, I would sue all of them since they all got what they wanted except you:

    Your doctor avoided his own incompetence;
    The hospital billed you for crappy care;
    The ins co got off the hook from paying a bill they owe and got your premium payment;

    And you…well you got a calcified blood clot that will be with you for life that was totally avoidable with Warfarin and ultrasounds.

    Request your records and then call your local bar association and get the best lawyer you can on a contingent fee basis and have at it.

    You’re worth precisely what you think you are worth.

  193. mespo727272
    As far as the nurse. I would like to think I would have given him the inhaler. I asked betykath and Malisha why he didn’t carry the inhaler with him, was it the school policy that he wasn’t allowed? But also,if I had a child that needed an emergency rescue inhaler, I would be in panic mode until I got the proper document signed.

  194. mespo
    What really makes me so damn mad is the fact that I was telling them for weeks that I had somehow broken my ribs lying in a hospital bed flat of my back. If I let it, it would eat me up.
    You’re right Mespo. they have pushed me into a corner and I don’t have a choice. I have to repair my credit somehow and the days that I can’t get enough air to my lungs I feel like a disgruntled postal worker. and I’m scared to death of hospitals now. Not just what was done to me, but things I saw. Everyone should take someone that has a little medical knowledge with them. There are app. 100,000 deaths yearly due to hospital error. This has nothing to due with suing, or lawyering, but Barnes Hosp. is one of the top ten in the U.S. I spent months with two pulmonoligists every day. They call me there walking miracle. They also called my docs down here and let them have it. One more thing, of many actually, they mixed my meds up. My blood was so thin, it wouldn’t register on either machine at the doc office. You can’t mix just anything with Warfarin. I got pneumonia and they mixed the wrong antibiotic with the Warfarin. that’s why my blood was so thin. I don’t want to keep on and on Mespo, but I could. And I want to thank you. You’re right, I’m worth what I think I am.

  195. You’re worth precisely what you think you are worth.
    ———————————————————————
    BELLE,

    Don’t fall for that creepy enticement, you are worth more.

    if you take that road understand that the hell the lawyers will put you through will line thier pockets and it will be at the further expense of your health.

    If you have a VERY supportive family, or church, or circle of friends, discuss it with them first. THEY are the ones who will be picking up the pieces of you after the lawyers decide just how far you can be spread to validate what they think THEY are worth. And at the end of the day, it will not be justice, but greed, that gets it way.

  196. Woosty:

    You’re right. No need to empower belle. Let’s just let her wallow in the injustice and then tell her there is nothing she can do unless she finds someone willing to work for free to help her.

    You need to work on that self-esteem thing — and quit giving legal advice. Maybe some counseling would help.

    A supportive family and friend network would have gotten her to a lawyer long ago.

  197. Belle, send me the info at my e-mail address and I’ll forward it to the fine (and brilliant) doctor in Mississippi (Greenwood, to be precise) and she will write a little e-mail with some advice, and I’ll also send it, with the physician’s comments, to a plaintiffs’ personal injury lawyer I know who takes on bad guys on contingency; if he can’t help he will give you referrals of folks in the network. Take the step. I know there are plenty of terrible lawyers out there but there are also a number of good ones and they won’t win if you don’t win, so it’s worth a try. :-)

  198. Mespo, worst case here for Belle is if the statute of limitations has expired. Many states have passed laws reducing the SoL to very short times. In our state it is one year, which means that some cases the patient does not discover the full extent of the damage done before the statute runs. That is what has happened to the older of my two daughters.

    I agree with your advice to Belle completely. I hate it when non-lawyers give well intentioned but totally misguided legal advice.

  199. OS/Raff:

    I’m hoping she might be within the S/L. Maybe she can work a contract theory that has a longer period in most states.

  200. Dear Mespo, OS/raff, Malisha etal…,

    I did not, nor would I, give Belle legal advice. Any advice I have to give is based on personal experience. One that is shared by many in response to the legal community exhibiting an expression of habitual behavior and excusing it by touting an ‘adversarial’ system that does not, apparently, know how to operate unless they be hammer to someone else as nail…..whether or not that dynamic is realistic, appropriate or even necessary.

    But you know that. Belle, what you see is what you get….lawyers are rarely able to walk away without making someone ELSE the bad. Taking things to court is a highly risky business both personally and financially. There is no outcome guarantee….they will tell you that AFTER they get you in the paying seat.

    Dear Mespo, my self esteem is just fine. It was not my esteem of self that suffered in my legal tribulation. But I do recognize the pattern of making a personal jab to engender an emotional response thereby deflecting a reasonable persons eye to the facts.

  201. Woosty,

    I was not making a direct criticism of you personally and hope you did not take it that way. I know from experience that any personal experience will sour one on a whole system–human nature is just that way. My wife once had a really bad experience with a dentist who had a great reputation, and my own experiences with him were very good, at least as far as going to the dentist can be a good experience. The end result was that she developed a deep dislike and distrust of dentists that lasted the rest of her life. The legal system gets tarred with that same brush. Voltaire once wrote that he had been ruined twice in his life; once when he was sued and lost, and once when he sued and won.

    If one decides to go the legal route, there are a couple of steps to take. First, get all your facts in order, which in the case of possible medical malpractice is to gather all your medical records. Then present the facts to an attorney experienced in such matters in as dispassionate manner as you can. Hyperbole and self-serving excuses are not helpful to the lawyer in evaluating a case. The attorney will tell you if he or she thinks you have a case or not. For one thing, an attorney accepting a case on contingency can expect to have close to $50,000 in personal outlay on the case, win or lose. It is in the attorney’s best interest to accept only those cases where there is a reasonable expectation of winning. Mespo’s advice to Belle is good. Get your stuff together all in one place and check with the local bar association to locate a lawyer who is both competent and is willing to work with the client on a contingency.

    Filing and pursuing even the most righteous lawsuit is even less fun than going to a bad dentist. Expect onerous and invasive discovery, hostile cross examinations and opposing experts accusing you of being responsible for your injury. The job of your own lawyer is to counter the attacks and shield the client as much as is humanly possible. So, in summary, the first step is to find out what your own legal status is. If the statute of limitations has expired in Belle’s case, it is probably all over, unless as Mespo said, it can be converted to some sort of contract dispute.

    In the interest of full disclosure and FWIW, as of a month ago, I am a plaintiff in an eminent domain lawsuit against the Federal Government. I fully expect to win. There will not be a great deal of money involved, but do expect to be adequately reimbursed for giving up a strip of property for government use. I am bracing as I expect to get an interrogatory soon. I hate those things, but that is the way the system works, and we can use the responses to the interrogatory to establish our own position which we believe to be airtight.

    I wish both you and Belle the very best.

  202. OS, thank you. I’ve said enough about my experience except to say that there was obvious corruption and physical attacks against me that derailed any further potential involvement. The Bar was notified. I’m not so stupid that I would encourage ANYONE to put themselves at risk the way I was put at risk. I went to court because I was obligated to go to court. Probates are obligations. It did not start as anything adversarial but it was easily made so BY THE COURT AGENTS.

    Mespo, as a lawyer I am sure you don’t like to hear it when your chosen profession is not lauded, but the only disdain for accountability here at this moment is yours. I didn’t just get clobbered in court. I was terrorized so as to put me in fear of my life. I had never had a problem with anyone until I became the legal rep of my mothers estate. Your response, just like the court that lost the case files, had me waiting for ‘extensions’ and re-hearings to the tune of years and years and years until my health and the estate was gone., will find anyone to blame, but themselves. In my case it was me.

    And no, I would not ever ’empower’ someone to go into a forum that was so obviously and insanely ‘enabled’ to do that to people.

  203. Mespo, with all due respect, and I do mean that, a person can get clobbered in court BECAUSE they expect accountability. If you trust the system and believe it is going to hold people accountable in accordance with law, precedent and just common decency, the clobbering you can sustain in a court proceeding that is no respecter of any of these principles is just inhuman. Some appellate cases make this very clear, but most people cannot afford appeals of anything, especially if their clobbering in court has deprived them of the money to hire good appellate counsel!

    I don’t personally know what happened to Woosty in court, but I’m just sayin’…

  204. Woosty, I don’t know how I got grouped in with people who were, in your opinion, perhaps trying to play down the message you were giving Belle about what can happen to someone in court. Please, if I did that or seemed to do that, accept my apology for misspeaking. I am 100% with you on the impression that stepping into a courtroom is probably one of the most dangerous activities a person can ever engage in. It can be as dangerous as unprotected sex with sadistic and diseased strangers. (Often, in court, you are at the mercy of sadistic and diseased strangers.)

    All I was telling Belle was that if she wanted referrals, I would be glad to try to get some decent ones her way, but starting with a doctor who was herself a battered woman, and who understands all sorts of things besides medicine, and who is a Southerner by temperament and personality.

    To you, I give my condolences for your court experience and also, my “solidarity” by providing a quote from Charles Dickens’ book BLEAK HOUSE, in which a probate case called Jarndyce versus Jarndyce figured prominently:

    “This is the Court of Chancery, which…so exhausts finances, patience, courage, hope, so overthrows the brain and breaks the heart, that there is not an honourable man among its practitioners who would not give — who does not often give — the warning: ‘Suffer any wrong that can be done to you rather than come here.'”

    And in general, I don’t even LIKE Dickens, but this quotation is as much a part of my consciousness now as is my consciousness now.

  205. Otteray Scribe
    Being a lay person I just wanted an opinion. I don’t think you guys, and gals, really appreciate what you bring to the table for people such as myself. Where else can you get such sound advice ? Choosing what to do with that advice is totally my decision. I could listen to you guys all day. One thing I have learned, no matter how right I KNOW I am means nothing in a court room. At this point, the farther I can stay away from a hospital/doctor the better I feel. The fact that I have to go on a monthly basis has made me a little better. I expect more improvement over time. It’s mind over matter for me now. Not long ago it was pure ole d panic. One other thing, I’m not totally flat on my back, and totally dependent on a Dr.s decision. I can get up and leave if I see fit. That makes a world of difference.

  206. Woosty
    Honestly, if I was a lawyer I would probably be hesitant about giving advice to anyone on here. I probably know a couple of ppl that would jump and run with that advice. Spouting that a lawyer told me to do this or do that. I take the opinions and advice I read on here serious , file it away and ponder over all the aspects. and when I say file it away, I don’t mean in a cabinet. It would be stupid for me not to. I also have enough sense to know that even though crappy care is responsible for part of my physical problems, directly responsible actually, I also know that it’s a whole different ballgame when it gets in the hands of another. No matter how right I feel I am.

  207. It can be as dangerous as unprotected sex with sadistic and diseased strangers. (Often, in court, you are at the mercy of sadistic and diseased strangers.)
    ————————
    Malisha, I wasn’t in court for sex, it was a probate of an estate. It was also 90% complete in the first year when the family attorney died and before any ‘strangers’ became involved.
    It opened in 1999 and was just closed in 2011. Diseased it was that court.

  208. Oh Woosty, I was only referring to sex to make my “reductio ad absurdum” comment more interesting, funnier. I figured you were in probate court (excactly the case with Dickens’ BLEAK HOUSE) and actually, when I wrote about “sadistic and diseased strangers,” I was mentally picturing a certain judge who liked to wear light blue robes. He just retired last year and probably still pro tems.

    Anyway, it was my attempt at humor.

  209. Belle, I just read the thread part where you asked about suing. I am not a lawyer and my case was against doctors. The main doctor perjured himself in court, the Pa. Superior court said so, plus the proof of negligence and malpractice was overwhelming (ignoring defensive pre surgical tests for instance). IMy first lawyer was allowed off the case after doing almost no work and left me with no attorney. I represented myself, lost but preserved the record for appeal. I went to a man with whom I went to high school. Good attorney, very good rep. Superior court granted the appeal, based on the proven perjury. Nevertheless my attorney forced me, literally, to settle for bupkis, no where near lifetime med expenses, much less punitive. The case was worth millions, other lawyer, after the fact (and before said so). It was in the courts for 14 years (not a mistype). I alwasy tell folks think hard and long because the tsauris from the suing, court, and possibly even your own attorney, may well not be worth it,
    I am so sorry for what you went through. Have you talked with the hospital administrator about the bill issue and what happened? He/she may turn out to be willing to write it off.

  210. Thank you for the advice about the hospital admin. The lawyer has been my main concern, so much so that I never thought about the most practical solutions. WOW. Thank you again.
    I check constantly to see if they have any medical advancement concerning these, as they call them, ‘hard to remove blood clots’ from ones lungs. Turns out they do now. Little bitty vacs that will remove the, even if they are calcified. I have three pieces in the left lung and I’m so very tempted. I want to learn more about the procedure since it’s fairly new. I can tell ya, the thought of taking just one breath like I used to would be heaven on earth for me. Not being dramatic, just plain truthful. Breathing is supposed to be an unconscious body function, I am aware of every single one.
    When I got to where I could speak, I asked the doc at Barnes if he could put a screen in my leg to keep it from moving anymore. His answer, the blood clot is huge, if we do that it would kill you. Too dangerous, he says.
    I can surely thank you for the advice about the admin. WOW, Gonna call that hospital tomorrow. Thank you so much leejcaroll.

  211. I just want to thank everyone on here. Been on the internet forever and you guys are my very first blog. I’ve looked around since then, just out of curiosity, and I always end up back here listening to you guys.
    It’s like a little community. I know, I’m corny….

  212. One more thing, a poster was talking about his/her child having asthma. They have a treatment now that has been very successful and much less invasive. It’s called, bronchial thermoplasty, muscle gets thickened over time from the extra effort of breathing ‘harder’. Radio waves are used to reduce the extra muscle that has accumulated in the lining of the lungs. I checked it out on you tube. It’s given some people enormous relief. Hope this helps someone. belle

  213. Friends, family, church….. They stayed with me for over a month, night and day.The doctors called them in and at that time a lawyer was the least of everyone’s worries, If you get my drift….. No one points me toward anything or anyone. I wasn’t even going to reply to the post but I couldn’t just leave the comment unanswered about my family and friends not giving me the support system that I needed. That’s as far from the truth as you can get…
    Just so were clear on that. belle.

  214. It is outrageous that a piece of paper is more important than a child’s life or anyone’s life! The parents should pursue legal action against the school!

  215. FYI, I’m a school nurse. I would have not allowed this student to return to school without the proper documentation signed and in my hands. This would never have happened if this student had been excluded from school until and unless the proper forms were signed and in my hands.
    The only other possible solution would have been to let another adult give the inhaler so the nurse isn’t responsible for giving a medication without an order. If no one else was available nurses, just like any other citizen, are protected with the good samaritan law just for cases like this.
    You wouldn’t believe how difficult it is to get parents to return proper documentation for life threatening illnesses! But once you threaten that their little one will be kept from school until they comply, they step right up and do what is needed.

  216. I am a school nurse in the state of Mississippi. The State Board of Nursing in my state forbids me to give any medications without written parent consent and a written doctor’s order. I can lose my license for doing so. Now who’s crazy???? I don’t know the entire situation that occurred here and unless we do, we can’t judge her. I have been a nurse for over 25 years and a school nurse for going on six. There are always situations that come up in the school system that aren’t cut and dried. Don’t judge until you know all the facts. I have 25 students right now at my school who have asthma. I sent home health forms at the beginning of the school year because I need to know who has asthma and who requires inhalers. The number is huge!!! There is one of me. All I ask parents is get the form signed and get it to the nurse! I can’t call every single parent of every one of these kids who have asthma in a short time. This takes days and days because believe it or not, I have 900 kids in my district and there are diabetics, kids with seizures and it goes on and on. You have no idea! The only issue I take with what happened in this story and again I don’t know everyone’s side–just what the Media says–is that if I have a child gasping for air and no written consent to give meds, I would call 911. But let me say this. Parents have a responsibility too. If this is not true then these stupid laws need to be changed and nurse’s need to be allowed to make decisions without parental consent and doctor’s orders. No nurse is going to give a medication when there is no written consent from the parent because this is considered battery. Hello!!!!! She will find herself in court if she does. You’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. That, my friend, is why you probably won’t have a nurse to take care of you by the year 2020 because no one want’s to put themselves in that position. The law is stupid to start out with and attorneys need to have to do what nurse’s do for just one day!!!!! They would last about 2 minutes.

  217. The problem here is this: In Florida, a school nurse doesnt have to be an actual nurse. They do hire Registered and Licensed practical nurses but they also hire people who arent nurses but have some type of basic traiining to become Health assistants. Back in my home state NJ, you HAVE to be a nurse to work in a school system. There are things you come into contact with that a skilled professional should handle and not someone with BASIC training. Although anyone and everyone knows that if someone looks in distress, CALL 911. But this particular school nurse could have not thought that it was serious enough. Thats why only a NURSE should be in schools to know and make that judgment. You know? I am an LPN and work for the school system here in Florida. I must say, Florida schools have tons of policies and are in fact very strict about medication. My first thing would of been to call 911 and would of done everything I could to help this child. Asthma is nothing to play around with and I am completely saddened at the fact that this child had to experience that.

  218. I am a school Nurse in MA. Although legally I too am required to have a doctor and parents sign off on all meds given, in an emergency such as this I would not hesitate to give it! However, I make sure the first week of school that I have all necessary documents and seek them out if any are missing, explaining the importance. And to protect the student and myself document every conversation regarding this topic.

  219. This whole county is behind the times. it is a redneck county.
    I am from New York.
    Anyone jealous enough to make rude comment can just keep on believing the south is educated.
    The south is backwards.
    His parents should secure legal counsel for the emotional damage and impact this experience had on this student.

  220. The school nurse might be regarded as wicked and unprofessional but think about the parents that places financial gain above their children. Thanks to my professional colleague that I still have my license. On a cold winter day , I had a student ( known asthmatic) in full asthmatic attack with a previous school year form but current year . I called 911 , called mother and informed the principal. While waiting , student’s breathing pattern changed and panic set in. I was afraid he would not make it. I gave him two treatment from the school stock . EMS arrived thirty minutes later,gave the student another treatment and transferred him to the nearest hospital. Mother did not show up but called hours later and was informed that student was admitted and in the hospital. The next day, mom was in the school, requested a conference and threatened to sue the nurse and the school. Why? “She gave my son the school stock inhaler”. The system did not back me , I was left to defend myself. The mother was not thankful that the student survived and she did not consider herself negligent in her responsibility as a parent. So , blame the parent and the system not the nurse .

  221. Lillian is right. We nurses are told over and over not to give anything without an order from a physician. It is a lawsuit waiting to happen. If a child brings an inhaler to school without a parent’s signed consent and a written doctor’s order, I WILL UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES GIVE THAT INHALER! I will try to get the parent, though that is not always possible and sometimes when you do reach them, they don’t want to stop work and come to the school. My policy is no order, no med. If parents won’t come get their ill children, 911 gets called. Deal with it! I worked too hard for my license and i’m no losing it for anyone.

  222. Lillian and Katherine, had the child not received the inhaler and 911 had not been called, then she would have both lost her job, license and a child’s life. I am also a nurse and understand that we have rules for a reason. If you remember though, we also have the right to give emergency care in times when a life is in danger without a consent.

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