Down In The Valley III: Justice Is Mine (Updated)

By Mark Esposito, Guest Blogger

One of the most enduring questions of the child rape scandal  at Penn State is what role did head football coach Joe Paterno play in the decision to grant his ex-right-hand man, Jerry Sandusky, carte blanche to prey on children. In a statement immediately after the scandal broke last November, Joe Paterno claimed that he reported what little he knew, did what he could, and that he wasn’t fully aware of the gruesome particulars:

“As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility,” Paterno’s statement read. “It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators.”

And that’s where he left it — with the intended impression that a good (but not fully informed) man did what the university’s protocol dictated and hesitated to do more because he didn’t want to jeopardize the process. Law enforcement was quick to say that Coach Joe was not being charged for failure to report the crime and this seemingly official exoneration gave PSU fans reason to breath after the heinous allegations caused them to hold their breath. St. Joe may not be the smartest 80-year-old coach around but he was clean!

In an article in the Washington Post, Paterno again demurred saying, “I didn’t know exactly how to handle it and I was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure was, so I backed away and turned it over to some other people, people I thought would have a little more expertise than I did. It didn’t work out that way.”

For good measure, Paterno even gave us the doddering, old coach routine telling us  that … dadgummit …:

“… I don’t know that it would have done any good, because I never heard of, of, rape and a man. So I just did what I thought was best. I talked to people that I thought would be, if there was a problem, that would be following up on it.”

Me get involved to protect my program? Nope, just following the protocol. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He’s just doodling “X”s and “O”s. Nothing to see, here.

JoPa’s  family was quick to his side saying the old coach was a character guy with little familiarity in the ways of the modern world — like emails which he never used —  nor of sexual perversions that never plague the pristine sidelines that are his kingdom. Joe was everything good about college football — integrity, victory with honor, and players graduating on-time. Old players came from every direction to talk about the man and the smear campaign against his ideals and of those who would topple his station as America’s college coach for their own undisclosed but obviously jealous purposes.

ESPN football analyst and former NFL player and executive,Matt Millen,  spoke for the Penn State alums:

Penn State’s program has always been above everything else, largely because that is what Joe espoused and lived. Was he perfect? No. Corrected them and owned up to them. That is what set him apart.

All of that might have sold gladly to the Nittany Lion faithful had not a damning series of emails  recently come to light uncovered by former FBI chief, Louie Freeh’s ex-G-men, whom the university hired to investigate the tragedy. Seems Vice-President Gary Shultz, whose responsibilities included overseeing the university police, kept a secret file with emails about the dilemma of “What to do about Jerry?” after the grad student’s report of child rape in the Penn State locker rooms. As discussed in my previous post, university administrators were in unanimous agreement to turn Sandusky over to authorities until AD Tim Curley ( A Paterno protege’ and former Penn State QB)  had a heart-to-heart with old, feeble, above-the-fray,  Joe. Miraculously, the plan changed from following the law to following your heart and giving Sandusky a chance to reform. It’s all about redemption and “humanizing the university” as former PSU President Graham Spanier might say. Though, even “Erasmus” Spanier was enough of a realist to recognize the danger of the plot.  “The only downside for us is if the message isn’t ‘heard’ and acted upon, and we become vulnerable for not having reported it,” he softly protested.

But an article today  in the Chronicle of Higher Education shows that JoPa could wield an rusty, iron fist when he needed to, and could use emails when it suited him. The emails, leaked by someone investigating the fiasco, show that Paterno considered himself the final arbiter of justice when it came to the Penn State football program.   Paterno deftly used an associate’s email account to establish the boundaries of his power with PSU officials with just enough ambiguity to make his supervisors blink.

The story begins in 2007 when as many as two dozen PSU football players launched a melee against other students in the off-campus Meridan Apartment complex resulting in six players facing nine felonies and 18 lesser charges for battery and assault. Penn State’s Office of Judicial Affairs (OJA), who investigated the fight, called it “brutal in nature. ” The brawl was about retribution. ”We went there for revenge,” one player said. “We had a reputation to uphold,” another player said, according to the documents at the OJA. (Obviously, these two missed the Matt Millen lecture).

Paterno wanted it gone and renewed his demand that PSU’s rule penalizing students for off-campus transgressions be repealed. It wasn’t. However, even as President Spanier was perplexed about what to do, Coach Paterno had a clear vision about the crisis. In an April 7, 2007, email sent via his assistant, Sandi Segursky’s account, to the Prez,  Paterno decreed:

“I want to make sure everyone understands that the discipline of the players involved will be handled by me as soon as I am comfortable that I know all the facts.” It was signed  ”Joe.”

Spanier dutifully sent a copy of the email to Vicky Triponey, then vice president of student affairs, whose department was investigating the alleged attack by players and who had weathered Paterno’s demand two years earlier to drop the off-campus conduct rule.  Triponey, who has now come out publicly about the undue influence Paterno wielded in Happy Valley,  was stunned.

Triponey wrote back to the president, saying, “Thanks for sharing. I assume he is talking about discipline relative to TEAM rules (note: he does not say that). Obviously discipline relative to the law is up to the police and the courts, and discipline relative to violations of the student code of conduct is the responsibility of Judicial Affairs.”

“This has not always been clear with Coach Paterno so we might want to clarify that and encourage him to work with us to find the truth and handle this collaboratively with the police and the university,” she went on. “The challenge here is that the letter suggests that football should handle this and now Coach Paterno is also saying THEY will handle this and makes it look like the normal channels will be ignored for football players.”

“Can you remind them of police and University responsibility?”

Ouch? Old doddering, unsophisticated in the ways of the world, Joe,  not knowing where his authority stopped and the police’s begins. The same guy who follows university protocol and then puts his head down and goes back to work molding young minds, fully confident that a crisis that threatens everything he’s worked for for fifty years will all be handled without him? That, Joe?  THAT Joe! Say it ain’t so, Joe!

So what happened to the alleged miscreant players? Well, the county criminal blotter reports that the courts dismissed all counts against four players and allowed the remaining two to plead guilty to misdemeanor offenses. Some received short suspensions from the team. Paterno refused to let players attend the university’s disciplinary hearing as witnesses, threatening in a perfectly modern blast text message to throw them off the team if they attended.  Instead, he made the affected players  perform 10 whole hours of community service. He also forced the entire team had to spend two hours on Saturday afternoons cleaning  the stadium after home games.

Thereafter, some commentators hailed Joe as a hero  — and Vicky Triponey was fired.

Sources: Chicago Tribune; Penn Live; Daily Beast; Chronicle of Higher Education; ESPN and Collegian On-Line

~Mark Esposito, Guest Blogger

Correction: The  previous version of this blog post listed the secret file containing lost emails as being possessed by AD Tim Curley. Actually, it was Gary Shultz, university VP, who maintained the file and turned it over to Louis Freeh as part of the university investigation into the matter.

UPDATE:  ESPN reports the Freeh Report on Penn State will be released next week and that it “will be tough on Joe.” The Penn State Board meets Thursday. Read ESPN here.

68 Responses to “Down In The Valley III: Justice Is Mine (Updated)”


  1. 1 rafflaw 1, July 6, 2012 at 11:55 pm

    Great job Mark! JoPa was dirty and his legacy has been forever diminished.

  2. 2 Otteray Scribe 1, July 7, 2012 at 12:02 am

    If I had a child of sports playing age, and if he or she had world class talent, there is no way on earth I would allow them to attend Penn State. Now, or ever. I only hope that thousands of conscientious parents across the country, and the world, feel the same way.

    Some have suggested the NCAA impose the so-called “death penalty” on Penn State, as they did to SMU. From a practical standpoint, I don’t think this is an NCAA issue, but a university and law enforcement issue; therefore, the “death penalty” is rather unlikely. Another kind of death penalty could result if Penn State were unable to recruit athletes. If that happens, they might turn their attention to what a university should be doing in the first place: education.

  3. 3 Gene H. 1, July 7, 2012 at 12:15 am

    Sports, be they collegiate or professional, would be much better served if not only the management but the fans simply stopped feeding into the culture of entitlement surrounding what is in fact a child’s game. Being athletically gifted at a game is nice and all that, but let’s be realistic for a minute. Not one on field action by any player of any sport has ever bettered civilization or done anything substantively meaningful or important. Being a “star player” or a “legendary coach” is about as useful to society as perfecting your “Dutch oven” skills. These people are not heroes simply because they can “fight” in our modern gladiatorial games. They are people who can run fast, are strong and have good coordination who use those skills for entertainment and to make money as entertainers. Admiring their skills and enjoying their work should not take dominance over holding them responsible for civilized behavior. Being athletic is no more the proper way to judge the value of a person than the color of their skin. The only appropriate measure of others is the content of their character: are they decent people and when they make mistakes, do they learn from them to do differently in the future? Am I mad that management and administration encourage the sense of entitlement that underlies this horrid series of crimes being swept under the rug? You bet I am. Am I mad that people who add comparatively little of value to society are put on pedestals when people like nurses, teachers, and firemen are often underpaid and largely ignored by the very society they serve? You bet I am. But I’m even madder at the fans who feed into the black hole of ego worship that allows the culture of entitlement in sports to continue. If that culture didn’t exist? Many children would have been spared the sexual abuse of twisted old pedophile protected by the ego maniacs around him because the first time this POS was caught abusing a kid, he’d have been thrown to the less than tender mercies of the legal system and everyone who knew about it and/or aided in the cover up fired on the spot, no excuses, no exceptions.

    You don’t protect those who prey upon children.

    “It was to protect the program!”
    “It was to protect the institution!”
    “It was to protect me!”
    “It was to protect them!”

    Bullshit.

    There is no excuse.

    Joe Paterno wouldn’t have been able to weasel out of seeing Jerry Sandusky brought to justice in a timely manner without that culture of entitlement.

    Yeah, the perp proper and JoPa and the administration all have a lot to answer for here, but so do the fans who gave them the idea they were special in the first place.

  4. 4 bettykath 1, July 7, 2012 at 12:37 am

    I’m not very good at rants so I’ll let Gene’s stand for me too.

    My only interaction with Paterno didn’t leave me with a good impression of him. His ego was way too big.

  5. 5 Otteray Scribe 1, July 7, 2012 at 12:38 am

    What Gene said. There never has been, and never will be, a Nobel Prize for sports. There is a substantial difference between being an entertainer who distracts for a few minutes or a few hours, and someone who contributes to the betterment of the human race.

    Entertainment is fun and has its place, whether it be music, athletics, fine art, or drama. It may even make life more interesting, but those qualities are ephemeral. Every October, I watch the Nobel announcements in physics. One of my best friends from high school ought to win the award for his creative work in high energy physics, and although he will not admit it, I suspect he has been nominated more than once (nominations are secret). I would rather know someone like him than a famous athlete.

  6. 6 Blouise 1, July 7, 2012 at 2:05 am

    Whenever one bestows the security of a god on any man the frailty of that man will eventually be revealed.

    Joe Paterno’s famous strength of character was all an illusion for if it were otherwise, he would have acted differently.

  7. 7 pete 1, July 7, 2012 at 2:26 am

    There never has been, and never will be, a Nobel Prize for sports.
    ==========================================================

    true, but don’t tell the alumni.

  8. 8 idealist707 1, July 7, 2012 at 4:12 am

    I came out here some time ago against all college entertainment sports. I still am against them.
    I would prefer to see that sports never leaves the back lot or at best a roughly chalkdrawn green at the nearest park for the inter-backlot league.

    Sports like our orientation games where the whole family can compete in age groups and the ladies in their groups too. That is true sport. It is competitive between peers, great for activation and lifelong exercise for the whole family together.

    The only thing you contact is with your strength of character, endurance, the branches of trees, and comradeship.

    Down with idolizing gladiators. And definitely down with perverts like Sandusky and the perverts who protected the system, etc.

  9. 9 Darren Smith 1, July 7, 2012 at 5:56 am

    I apologize in advance for my lack of decorum but I have to vent on this.

    In my previous career, I arrested an untold number of child abusers and child molesters. I had absolute and total contempt for all of them. I loathed them so much I treated them as friendly and with as much courtesy as I could, writing the most solid case possible against them, and respecting every aspect of their condition. Why? Because I wanted a photon tight case against those creeps so the judge would later hand them their arse. I put one molester away for Ten Years for having it with a mentally handicapped 12 year old girl who he got pregnant. (the max unfortunately)

    So for me them being nearly the lowest forms of scum of humanity, there was one group peer to them who I almost had more contempt for, and that was the knowing other person who allowed all of this to happen.

    The most common manifestation was a young woman who had a daughter from a previous relationship. Feeling lonely and somewhat having a dejected view of herself, she would shack up with some lowlife guy. Later, the guy would began having let’s just say inappropriate relations with the daughter. At some point the daughter would inform the woman of the incidents and the woman would convince or in some cases threaten or coerce the daughter to clam up or else The woman usually fears the boyfriend going to jail and / or breaking up with her and she doesn’t want to be lonely again.

    Eventually it would come out either by the daughter bringing it up in school or being traumatized she resorts to bad behavior and in her subsequent contact with police the incidents come out to the forefront.

    Reiterating, I sometimes debated how close to being the actual molester the girlfriend in this example was, having known all too well what was going on and sacrificing her own child to this depraved scab because of her own contemptably misplaced loyalties.

    So if this Coach Joe guy gets into any kind of trouble over this, he gets what he deserves in my book especially after that (no disrespect to you all intended) lawyer written statement was about as insincere as his care for anyone other than himself.

  10. 10 Otteray Scribe 1, July 7, 2012 at 6:56 am

    Darren, been there, done that–got the cap and t-shirt. Hold your nose and be the consummate professional so there will be no chance the case will go south. I love it when I can hand a defense lawyer his or her butt on those cases.

    At the same time, one has to keep in mind there are a lot of false allegations of child molestation out there. When the claim comes up in the context of civil litigation, such as a divorce or child custody case, my bullshit detector antenna goes on high alert.

  11. 11 BarkinDog 1, July 7, 2012 at 7:46 am

    The comment of Gene H above is very articulate.
    I would bark that the taxpayer is also a creator. A citizen of Pennsylvania is responsible to the people of the state and of the US to provide money and direction for the betterment of society through the use of money, facilities and people through the modus operandi of what is loosely called Higher Education. We have to compete with China in math and science not with Ohio in some dumb game called football. Our mathmeticians and scientists must come out of our universities with brains fulfilled with knowledge and their butts intact.
    I think that this barks it out succinctly.

  12. 12 BarkinDog 1, July 7, 2012 at 7:47 am

    The dogalogue machine here censored my last sentence so I will try it again to beat the moderator. This is in pig latin. Joe Paterno is a promoter of ut ruker fee.

  13. 13 Anonymously Yours 1, July 7, 2012 at 7:54 am

    College Football…..winning teams…. More alumni donations……. It’s the university’s version of wall street……

    Mark, excellent post…… I had to yet again refrain from those 3 of the 4 words that would send this to WordPress moderation……

  14. 14 Malisha 1, July 7, 2012 at 9:12 am

    “So what happened to the alleged miscreant players? Well, the county criminal blotter reports that the courts dismissed all counts against four players and allowed the remaining two to plead guilty to misdemeanor offenses. Some received short suspensions from the team. Paterno refused to let players attend the disciplinary hearing as witnesses, threatening in a perfectly modern blast text message to throw them off the team if they attended. Instead, he made the affected players perform 10 whole hours of community service. He also forced the entire team had to spend two hours on Saturday afternoons cleaning the stadium after home games.

    “Thereafter, some commentators hailed Joe as a hero — and Vicky Triponey was fired.”

    My comments: (a) Only four of the players remained “alleged miscreants.” Two of them were miscreants. But more important, Paterno committed a crime by “refus[ing] to let players attend the disciplinary hearing as witnesses, threatening in a perfectly modern blast text message to throw them off the team if they intended.”

    OK, that would be witness tampering if in fact it applied to the conduct of the criminal cases in court. It is probable, from the way this story played out, in my mind, that Paterno was doing as much “witness control” in the criminal cases as possible, which is probably why this ended up with two petty misdemeanors instead of six felonies. ANY players who were inside Paterno’s control were probably strong-armed. Furthermore, I wonder what the original problem was that resulted in these six wanting their “revenge.” Perhaps that was never even investigated — right? But in threatening to deprive certain individuals of their constitutional rights unless they voluntarily relinquished OTHER constitutional rights, Joe Paterna would have violated federal law, as well as committed malfeasance and misfeasance in office, IMHO. Also, he would have been guilty of deliberately interfering with the proper administration of the University’s own procedures, which should have been an offense punishable within the school by firing.

    Think of all the people who get off for all the crimes and acts of immoral antisocial cover-up and misconduct. Why? Because of this factor, people who might risk behaving properly become intimidated. Vicky Triponey was fired! Yet she would quite likely end up impotent to do anything about it because there would be all kinds of crap written in her last performance review that would justify her firing, and if she tried to fight it, she’d get advice from everyone saying not to turn into a lunatic runnung around suing people — and besides, where would she find a lawyer, blah blah blah blah –

  15. 15 mespo727272 1, July 7, 2012 at 9:23 am

    Malisha:

    I corrected the post to clarify that Paterno dissuaded players from attending the university’s discplinary hearing. Thanks for the needed editing!

  16. 16 mespo727272 1, July 7, 2012 at 9:29 am

    Darren Smith:

    All good insights in your comment. Not sure what OS would say about my observation, but it appears to me that most every pedophile has an enabler to cover up or facilitate the crime. Here the enabler looks to be an entire institution.

  17. 17 bettykath 1, July 7, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Malisha, Google Vicky Triponey. Her story is out now. She was in charge of the university disciplinary department. She tried to do her job. She insisted she be allowed to do her job. Paterno thwarted her where the football players were involved. It was Vicky’s disciplinary hearings that Paterno’s players weren’t allowed to attend. With everything being equal, and University procedures being followed, Paterno should have been fired. But everything wasn’t equal. Paterno had the power and he used it His players didn’t show up and Triponey was fired.

  18. 18 Malisha 1, July 7, 2012 at 9:50 am

    Otteray Scribe, Darren S, There are cases where a mother who IS married to the father of her children also “knows” about sexual abuse of her kids and remains silent. There are cases where the mother (whether the molester was a step-father or a legal and biological father) believes the kid and then is herself DISBELIEVED and even punished. It is obvious that some false allegations will arise in any situation, involving any crime, even if you have evidence the crime has been committed, charges against any one person may amount to false allegations if the perp was someone else. But if you consider several factors that aren’t actually common knowledge, more can become clearre.

    1. A molester will often marry or get together with a woman who has low self-esteem simply because it is easier to manipulate such a woman. So whether he’s her husband of many years and father of her children, or a boyfriend she moves in with after a divorce, a guy who does not really enjoy sex with grown women is more likely to choose, as a mate, a woman who has some psychological “predisposition” to be with an abusive man. (Darren, the woman with low self-esteem will also not be as likely to really be assertive on behalf of her child if she suspects abuse or even if her child reveals abuse — after all, she would be accusing a powerful AUTHORITY FIGURE (HER MAN) of wrongdoing if she did so.)

    2. A man who is more likely to molest children than others is also LIKELY to be a man who is more likely than others to do other things that are not great for preserving a marriage. HELLO HELLO, a molester is more likely to end up in a divorce than a normal man might be! Is that a difficult thesis to think up? I have never seen it in the literature, though. What kind of a woman is more likely to make false allegations? Do we know? But what kind of a man is more likely to both molest children AND end up in a divorce? Are any of these things really known?

    3. So whereas the common wisdom is that FALSE allegations are more to be expected in divorce, it may be that TRUE ones are.

    But what to do about the woman who shacks up with a boyfriend, while her child (whose father is or was some other man) is forced to deal with this guy, and the guy molests this child. He could be a step-father (statistics show that step-fathers are more likely to molest children than biological fathers) or a mother’s boyfriend. What about it when this mother KNOWS her child is being abused but doesn’t protect her child? How do you deal with that seemingly intractable problem?

    Perhaps some law could be passed that would recognize that there are cover-ups of child sexual abuse, and that would make those cover-ups misdemeanors if they were perpetrated by heads of universities or corporate officials of some kind, but felonies if they were perpetrated by mothers. Oh, and CAPITAL OFFENSES if they were perpetrated by mothers whose victimized children were molested by their own biological fathers during the process of a divorce. I’m just casting about, don’t really know anything about legislation or criminal law.

  19. 19 Otteray Scribe 1, July 7, 2012 at 9:53 am

    mespo,
    One of my colleagues did a study back in the early 1970s, using convicted incestuous fathers. He never published the study, but I still have a copy around here somewhere in the storage shed. He told me he had trouble finding a journal that would publish it. It was radioactive because of the content. He is deceased now, so trying to find a publisher is out of the question, but I think journals would be more receptive these days than they were in 1973.

    There were 69 men in the study sample. What was found was that the wives in the marriages either knew or suspected what their husbands were up to, but were glad they turned to the kids instead of “bothering” them. The men were found to be needy, selfish and grossly immature emotionally. In many ways they came closer to being the emotional age of their victims than an adult male. The wives were not assessed formally, but our impression of them generally were that they were dependent, and rather like the battered wife who is afraid to leave the husband because she is more afraid of being alone with no one to support her. It is a heck of a lot harder to get consent to do a psychological profile on an enabler than a convicted felon. If that were possible, I would be first in line to get a chance at Cardinal Law or Pope Ratzy.

    However, many pedophiles do not have institutional support. We might call them “lone wolves.” The late unlamented Jimmie Lee Gray of Mississippi (Google his name) fit that category. We have no way of knowing how many pedophiles are lone wolves, and how many there are who are being enabled by their institutions, such as Penn State or the Catholic hierarchy.

  20. 20 Malisha 1, July 7, 2012 at 9:58 am

    BettyKath, thanks for the info. I was too lazy to do the RS, just wanted to blab on about another issue, but you’re right; Triponey was doing her job and doing it well and people who DO try to do their jobs and not allow corruption to take over the system are most often just marginalized, fired, destroyed — and SOME OF THEM ALSO BECOME DISGRUNTLED.

    It is amazing to me how the pedophiles get lots more loyalty, assistance and help than other sorts of criminals. They really do. Of course, there may be plenty of help for ANY CRIMINAL who gets caught in the net if he’s from the group, say, George Zimmerman came from, but of all of them, the ones who have the most efficient system of absolute help and pretty damn near canonization are always the child molesters.

  21. 21 Malisha 1, July 7, 2012 at 10:03 am

    I remember a pro se mother questioning a guardian ad litem in Iowa. The GAL had chosen to block all investigation into the possible sexual abuse of his client because he had decided that the entire investigation was “not necessary and simply a sign of the mother’s mental illness” in spite of the fact that there was PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF PENETRATION of a five-year-old girl. So the pro se mom had the GAL on the stand in a juvenile court disposition hearing and he had opined that the reason he stopped the investigation was that “the father was not a pedophile.” Since the Mom had asked for forensic testing of the father and herself, specifically, a plethysmograph of the father, and since the GAL had blocked it, the mom asked her next series of questions:

    MOM: How have you come to the conclusion that [the father] is not a pedophile?

    GAL: There’s no evidence that he IS.

    MOM: Anything else?

    GAL: It’s preposterous. He’s not.

    MOM: What do you know about pedophiles?

    GAL: Not very much, fortunately.

    MOM: Have you brought in any consults on child sexual abuse?

    GAL: No.

    MOM: Have you read any studies about the personality of pedophiles?

    GAL: No.

    MOM: So please tell us everything you know about pedophiles.

    GAL: They need a lot of help.

    [Of course, the GAL was at that very time GIVING a pedophile a lot of help.]

  22. 22 mespo727272 1, July 7, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Thanks, OS. Your friend’s study comports with the cases I’ve seen.

  23. 23 Malisha 1, July 7, 2012 at 10:13 am

    OS: We have no way of knowing how many pedophiles are lone wolves, and how many there are who are being enabled by their institutions, such as Penn State or the Catholic hierarchy.

    I would add, “…being enabled by their institutions, such as Penn State or the Catholic hierarchy, or THE FAMILY or THE COURTS.”

  24. 24 Dredd 1, July 7, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Courageous post Mark.

    It illustrates what happens when societies fall prey to the bully religion, to bully worship, i.e., part of the bully realm is sexual predation.

    There are so many instances of the practice in our society that I fear we have fallen prey to it ourselves in the U.S.eh?

  25. 25 Malisha 1, July 7, 2012 at 10:28 am

    “The wives were not assessed formally, but our impression of them generally were that they were dependent, and rather like the battered wife who is afraid to leave the husband because she is more afraid of being alone with no one to support her.”

    She may be afraid to leave the husband because she is “more afraid of being alone with no one to support her” or she may be cowed and abused herself, like Dottie Sandusky appears to be, or she may be brainwashed into thinking her man can do no wrong and the kids must be lying against their good daddy, or she may be afraid of any number of things.

    Turn this around. Say she’s not “dependent, and rather like the battered wife who is afraid to leave…” and say it has nothing to do with having someone “to support her.” Say she supports the children’s claims of abuse and walks out on the guy and alleges sexual abuse and maybe even other kinds of abuse.

    What are her chances now?

    Perhaps she has borderline personality disorder!
    Perhaps she is a liar and brainwashing her children!
    Perhaps she is trying to get leverage in a bitter divorce!
    Perhaps she is making false allegations of sexual abuse to destroy a good man whose only crime was not doing her bidding, the b*tch!
    Perhaps she is strident or a feminist or something and has her panties in a twist!
    Perhaps, as posited by Dr. Richard Gardner, she is sexually frustrated and therefore imagines sexual misconduct everywhere she looks!
    Perhaps she is “obsessed or perhaps she is damaged goods” [quote from another thread on another subject]
    Perhaps she has Munchausen by Proxy Disorder!
    Perhaps she is a parental alienator!
    Perhaps she doesn’t have a good lawyer — god help her!
    Even if she DOES have a good lawyer — god help her!

    A very wealthy and powerful woman in NY had someone call me once, because she was married and had a child with a guy who physically beat (pummeled!) her and his grown son (by another marriage) molested her daughter on visitation. Boom, they were in the midst of a nasty custody battle with bomber lawyers on both sides and evaluations by the top forensic psychologists in the divorce mill trade in Manhattan. Mom had brought a photograph of her face, after the last beating, to show the forensic guy. She had a black eye, split lip, bruises ALL OVER HER FACE like a prize fighter. She was 5’2″ and weighed a pretty 112 pounds. We met in a pizza place and she told me she was in shock already and the process had only started — three or four months into the case. She said the psychologist had asked her, when she showed him the picture, “What did you do or say to provoke this kind of a reaction.” Since she was rich and was brought up both rich and sheltered, she responded: “Tell me what someone would have to do or say to make YOU beat them like that!” The psychologist had concluded that although he thought the father was “not owning up” to his own violence, that it was also possible that the mother was “domineering and challenging” and that this might have been the cause of the problem. Therefore, he concluded, the father was not being “straightforward” and neither was the mother, so no conclusions could be reached about who was either more honest or the better parent. He then went on to say that veracity of the story of the child being molested by the grown son could not be assessed, since everybody in the family seemed to have their own axe to grind.

    End of story.

    And that mother was not passive, and the allegations were not made against a father, and the situation was not that complex.

  26. 26 Mike Spindell 1, July 7, 2012 at 10:44 am

    Mark,

    Thank you for giving us the information that puts the final nail in the coffin of Joe Paterno’s status as a Demi-god of College Football. Besides winning and bringing so much revenue to Penn State (the sole purpose of college football),
    Paterno’s reputation was as the most highly ethical coach in football. Paterno became the most powerful person at Penn State and we now see that far from a paragon of ethics, he was but another power-driven egotist, whose chief interest was his own reputation. All big time college sports are a sham and can only exist by exploiting the athletes. That some athletes prosper from it does not make it any more meritorious.

  27. 27 Mike Spindell 1, July 7, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Darren and OS,

    The most rewarding of the 32 years I spent at the NYC/HRA were the 8 years I spent working in Child Welfare. With every fiber of my being I hate those who would hurt a child in any way. What my colleagues found most surprising about me was that this Hippie/Radical was somewhere to the Right of Attila The Hun when it came to prosecuting abusers. However, I note your expression the need to follow all the rules when conducting an investigation, since I also had to deal with people presumed guilty by the system who were innocent.

  28. 28 Otteray Scribe 1, July 7, 2012 at 11:14 am

    I have a long-time friend who is a private investigator. He drifted from general investigations into specializing into false allegations of child abuse. He makes an excellent living at it, and has managed to exonerate many people, both male and female who were accused of abuse or molestation. If, during the course of his investigation, he finds his client actually did it, he dumps them like the sack of garbage they are. Most of his cases seem to arise in the course of a bitter child custody battle; however, some of the more interesting ones arose from out-and-out attempted extortion.

    There was one case where an executive of a small pharmaceutical company got a gigantic bonus when one of their drugs was found to be more effective than anything else on the market. Overnight, he went from being solid middle class to a millionaire. The family who lived across the street and had a teenage daughter hatched a plot to have the daughter spend the night at a sleepover with the gentleman’s daughter. A day or two later, her parents accused him of molesting her, but said for a million dollars they would not report him to the police. He refused of course, and they accused him. It ended up in court where he fought it and eventually won. It cost him more than a million dollars defending himself, but the family across the street were proved to be grifters. He would have sued them, but they had no meaningful assets, which is why they were trying to squeeze money out of him in the first place. The point of this is, my detective friend has found this kind of thing goes on more often than many people realize.

  29. 29 Gindy54 1, July 7, 2012 at 11:32 am

    One question I have not seen brought up has to do with why a talented coach like Sandusky was not hired by some other college or university as soon as he was available. Is it possible this “secret” was well known outside of Penn State? That more than one administration or athletic director knew of Sandusky’s predatory ways? I only ask because if no one else knew, why wasn’t he hired?

  30. 30 leejcaroll 1, July 7, 2012 at 11:34 am

    JoePa was beloved and saints can do no wrong, in this case, even when they are proven (by the emails, etc) to be sinners. I am sorry he did not live to see the inside of a court and maybe a jail too.

  31. 31 Malisha 1, July 7, 2012 at 11:42 am

    OS, I agree with you and I have, believe it or not, run across AND BUSTED two cases where there actually were false allegations of sexual abuse brought for reasons other than child protection (although the reasons were not the common ideas of “vindictive ex-spouse”). One of the reasons was that a guy who had molested his own children and was about to be busted wanted to throw the blame onto grandpa! He had a very passive wive who would never have figured out what was going on to start with but he had twins who TOGETHER went to a school authority and busted him, so he threw the blame like a ventriloquist throws his voice. The other was even more weird, because a kid made knowingly false allegations — at age 13 — against a school psychologist to cover up a sex act that had taken place between him and the baby-sitter’s son. We never could figure out whether that sex between the two boys was consensual or not and nobody wanted to try to deal with it anyway, but the falsely accused guy went through Hell.) My point is that, although television and even common wisdom believe that most child abuse allegations made in the context of custody and divorce disputes are “obviously false,” that is not the case and should not be presumed.

  32. 32 bettykath 1, July 7, 2012 at 11:48 am

    Gindy54, Good question. All seem to be keeping their heads down.

  33. 33 bettykath 1, July 7, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Whole family is abused in many ways by the dad. Mom finally gets them all in counseling. Dad is arrogant and uncooperative, refuses to participate. Mom and kids continue counseling. Mom gets enough support and self-esteem to kick him out. Divorce proceeds. He gets pretty much everything. Child custody time: he denies any abuse whatever. Psychotherapist disputes this. Before trial GAL talks with opposing attorney about his conversation with one of the boys who said dad sexually abused him but mom seems to have put him up to it. The sexual abuse actually occurred but boy did NOT say that in the call. I was in the room and boy said “dad abused him”. There are many forms of abuse. Boy was NOT specific. Mom wasn’t present during the call. During the trial Mom is allowed only her own attorney (not a good one since dad had access to all funds and she had none). Her family was not allowed in the court room. His attorney kept them out b/c he might call them as witnesses! Dad had his new wife, and whomever he wanted there to support him. Dad fought for two boys, not his adopted step-daughter. He changed his mind when he found that he would have to pay child support for her. Anyway, joint custody was “reluctantly” determined but judge put mom through more verbal abuse. Child support was never up-to-date (amount was decided on income he declared but most of his income was under-the-table). Visits were not supervised. Daughter refused to visit. Mom decided that the boys were big enough to fend for themselves, after all they had been practicing for years, chasing each other with knives and other weapons.

  34. 34 Curious 1, July 7, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    OS

    Will you reconsider your dismissal of the arts as being unimportant? Mozart? Shakespeare? Faulkner? Picasso’s Guernica? Bach? Botticelli? Tolstoy? Mann? Austin? Melville? Steinbeck? Marquez? Borges? O’Neill?

  35. 35 Otteray Scribe 1, July 7, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    I did not dismiss the arts as being unimportant. I also said they contributed to our lives by providing entertainment of various types. There is a Nobel Prize for literature. There is a Pulitzer Prize for news reporting.

    There is not a prize of the caliber of the Nobel for sports, and some of the arts. Perhaps it is because music and visual arts are so subjective. There are those who would pick one of the modern rappers over Bach or Mozart, so maybe it is just as well to not go there.

    I like sports of most types, but would still rather spend time with one of my physicist friends than with most athletes. And BTW, I went to high school with a Cy Young winner, a couple of All American football players and a musician who is in the Country Music Hall of Fame. And a guy who should some day be awarded the Nobel in physics.

  36. 36 rafflaw 1, July 7, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    OS,
    I agree with you placing the correct emphasis on important things like Nobel and Pulitzer prizes, but I would like to add one more “prize” to your important list. The Medal of Honor winners are an elite club like the Nobel prize winners.

  37. 37 idealist707 1, July 7, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    There’s a lot of condemning going on here. And I join those who condemn the abuser.

    If, as OS briefly implied, we are dealing with a figure who has not matured, who can not relate successfully with adults, but emotionally desires contact with those nearer his emotional age, then what is the final solution?

    Steriization? Done that. Therapy? Done that.
    Lists? Done that. Occupational blockage/screening? Done that.

    It would seem that prevention is an untried method. As yet with an unknown method of preventing the stunting of the growth of people, assuming it is an environmental factor and not genetically caused.

    This stunting of people probably expresses itself in many of our ills in society. We have mentioned many. And repair is a very expensive and long process done by a very few of the many. Remember when therapy was a no-no subject?

    I have mentioned the “don’t believe you are anything” tradition of Sweden (jäntelagen). So America is not alone. Every nation is afflicted, that and incest being the two universal sexual taboos.

    My solution: I say love is the answer to most of our ills. I say replacing love of money, power, position, admiration, approval, caché, ie whatever you desire other than love, anything that obscures or replaces your need for love is a sickness of the soul. And that means a lot of us are sick.

    Can we help each other out of our sickness?
    I think so.

    We come back to that word. Agape. A good muslim, and they are very few by their own admission, practices it every day he prays with others. He practices it when he give sakkat. And he practices it when he prays alone.

    And I don’t believe the muslims have a patent on that either.

    But it must become secular, scientific, and accepted.
    It will require intervention. And it will take miracles—perhaps.

    Do our therapists have anything to offer?

  38. 38 Otteray Scribe 1, July 7, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Raff, I agree completely. And I say that as someone who has a distant cousin who received that award. He did not survive, but then, most MoH “winners” do not survive.

  39. 39 idealist707 1, July 7, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    Here’s a question maybe for all, maybe for Dredd and his knowledge of the amygdala.

    What causes love? What gives us happiness when we think of those we love? What makes us happy at the thought of other people’s children.
    What makes us happy when we see other people happy.

    How can an isolated soul be united with the rest, or at least a part?

    What part of the brain? What signal substances?
    Whar basic urge fulfillment? And how can its flow start, and be kept flowing throughout a person’s life?

    I had one idea where a system in a neo-natal department could help new borns. Do you have ideas?

  40. 40 Otteray Scribe 1, July 7, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Raff, speaking of exceptional people and the Medal of Honor, does anyone know that we have had one President who earned the MoH for heroism above and beyond the call of duty when he was a soldier? And what are the odds of both father and son receiver the MoH? Bravery must have run in the family genes.

    http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/life/medalofhonor.htm

  41. 41 BarkinDog 1, July 7, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Corporal punishment has its place. Pennsylvania is busy trying to take the votes away from folks without drivers licenses right now but maybe than can change their criminal statutes. Eye for an eye is too strict. But an anal rapist of a child should be dealth with at the source of his perversion. So, on offense for the kid in the shower witnessed by the red haired coach, i would say cut off the Sandusky testicles. For the next subsequent offense it would be the penis. Then, right hand, left hand, and finally, capital punishment, his head. Corporal punishment also has a role for the corporate facilitator. Here the University of State Penn would lose the locker room, shower, stadium on offense number one where it is shown that they covered it up. Offense number two, they lose their accreditation. Relegate State Penn to University of Phoenix. [Yeah, I know its already there in the eyes of IBM]

    Pedophilia prevention: First offense, remove the predator from the facility. Second offense prevent any child from attending the facility. In the case of the Catholic Schools, they would have to be closed and all pedophiles removed [all priests] before reopening under another auspices like the Mormons. For State Penn: Remove all of the offending predators and their handlers (good word here) such as Joe Pa and the head of sports and the Superintendent or Dean or whatever name the top dog had. Second offense, close it down and give all the students vouchers to go to anywhere but Penn State (ABPS), that has no sports program and teaches math and science.

  42. 42 BarkinDog 1, July 7, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    Be the first State in your nation to abolish inter collegiate sports in all of your state named, sponsored or accredited colleges or universities. In Pennsylvania you could dub it the Joe Pa Act.

  43. 43 Curious 1, July 7, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    I celebrate those who win Nobels and Pulitzers. However, they are awarded by men and men make mistakes. I give you Obama and Mother Teresa.

  44. 44 idealist707 1, July 7, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    Curious,

    Curious you mention those two.

    I am surprised they did not ask Obama to give his back.

    That would have embarrassed their own king, so a no-no if not self-respect in play.

    What can you say about MT? According to one journalist who happened to be in the flooded villages when she and her helicopter brigade landed full of politician and willing journalists, she was a terror. Implacably unapproachable. Completely unmoved. But guess she believes they have sinned thus this is their punishment on earth. Do you know?

  45. 45 rafflaw 1, July 7, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    OS,
    Thanks for the info on Teddy Roosevelt’s MOH! I wonder if my Congressman, Joe Walsh would call Teddy a hero??!

  46. 46 Mike Spindell 1, July 7, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    BDog,

    Amen to that abolishing. I love sports but detest the phony amateur distinction. If people are to make money off of one’s sthletic ability, then that athlete should be paid. That they are already is yet another hypocrisy everyone ignores.

  47. 47 Malisha 1, July 7, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    Paterno said, “I want to make sure everyone understands that the discipline of the players involved will be handled by me as soon as I am comfortable that I know all the facts.”

    Now, at the time that he said this, he thought he could get it obeyed and he thought that was all he would have to do. Turned out he didn’t get it to go down as he wanted, but somebody ELSE got punished for that. He did as much as he could to interfere with the proper process. He lied, cheated, hurt others, did whatever he pleased with the power he had and so did many others (among those, some who will now have to pay a price, but among them also, many who never will pay any price). Victimized people ALWAYS PAY THE PRICES.

    This reminds me of what is currently attracting my emotional and intellectual attention right now. The Board on Professional Responsibility in the District of Columbia has a “prosecutorial” division called “Bar Counsel” that examines claims of wrongdoing by attorneys. Bar Counsel has a complaint in front of them about two DC attorneys. One of them refused to turn over papers that are the possession, legally, of the client. The other one actually made a deal with the adversary and acted as a lawyer in a state where she was not licensed, BEFORE she was even on the case with client permission. So Bar Counsel has sent some of these kiss-off letters that, to be honest, should have said, instead: “we will do whatever we will do when we are satisfied that we should do something and we will be sure that we understand all the facts and blah blah blah blah blah blah because we are a fake agency we are a sham we are pretending to be doing something just like Joe Paterna blah blah blah blah blah blah blah…but you are nothing and we can do whatever we want blah blah blah blah blah…..”

    This, ladies and gentlemen, is what we have for a society, for a government, for a culture, this is what we have. It is the MYTH of “rule of law” and it is the MYTH of justice. It is a disgrace, a shame, and the only thing worse than this is the many instances of frank murder that we both endure and tolerate.

  48. 48 idealist707 1, July 7, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    Malisha stimulates ideas, not always truly on thread. But it is corruption essentially we are speaking of.

    Reflect! The eskimos have 20 words for snow of different kinds. Arabs have 30 for sand. Jews how many for forbidden things, as do the RCC, and Hindus, etc. etc.

    Point?

    How many words and phrases do we have for corruption of justice, rights, whatever?
    Within finance and banking 100? Realty 50? Agency operation 200? Justice system 500? Corporations 1000?

    We can take wagers: MikeS can hold the bets, GeneH and ElaineM can do the counting, etc etc. I’ll do the kibbitzing.

    Oh yes, forgot prime example. The Danes have 50 for boring.

  49. 49 Darren Smith 1, July 7, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    Otteray, Malisha, MIke, et al:

    Yes, most definately it is the case of someone being ruined by a false and retaliatory or extortionate sex offense. Luckily I’ve only had a couple of these as well. It often is evident in the beginning that something is not right about these cases but not always. One certainly has to take into account the who spectrum before going for a prosecution. Like I said earlier, never jump a conclusion at the beginning of any investigation, lest you arrive at the wrong conviction. I agree with all of you entirely.

    Though consider this. How does a state weigh three aspects: The need to prosecute the guilty, protecting the accused from baseless and fraudulent charges by going after the accuser for false reporting, AND facilitating and protecting a witness/victim to allow her/him to come forward with the information without fear of reprisal or civil liability?

    I would not like to see a situation where a true victim or witness has to debate whether or not to come forward for fear the real molester would be found Not Guilty by some strange reason and then the state or civil court would come after them for doing reporting it. This would certainly deter most people from trusting or having faith in the law.

  50. 50 Malisha 1, July 7, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    Darren Smith, you have said it so well, and I thank you.

    I have personally advised probably 100 therapists, mothers, other family members, and even lawyers, to AVOID ALL ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL ABUSE IN ALL CUSTODY BATTLES NO MATTER WHAT HAS HAPPENED. When a therapist asked me, “But the law says I have to report any suspicion of abuse,” I have said, “Do not disobey the law, ever. But remember, you don’t have to explain why you do not suspect abuse.”

    Actually, I believe tings were better in the old days when kids did not have all this “We care about you” and “you’re special” and “nobody’s allowed to mistreat you” and related bullsh*t. Then, when they got molested, they shut up about it, and maybe when they were 30, 40, 50 years old if they chose to deal with it, maybe they would be able to. Maybe they would have to give up living lives THEY considered “normal” or “good.” But would they get mauled in a fake system of appalling lies and elaborate cover-ups? Would they end up having contributed to the destruction of their protectors, and having to kowtow and kissfeet to their abusers? And would they end up having to adopt the “identify with the abuser” because that is all that works 99% of the time?

    20+ years after the fact, a young woman living in Washington DC and working as an aide for a Congressman does not CARE that Hynes, the Brooklyn DA, is now required to behave as if he believes members of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community in Brooklyn must be treated like the rest of Brooklynites if they commit child sexual abuse. She no longer cares about anything except getting her way, dominating people she can dominate, pushing people around, hurting people if that will help her rule her little world where only control matters, and why? Because back when she alleged incest, she was treated to a ten-year course in: “DO what we abusers do and SAY IT IS RIGHT and DO WHAT WE DO to your mother so that you will not be tarred with the same brush that we are using on HER” and this young woman adopted a life in which it was perfectly all right to do as much damage to her mother, Amy Neustein Ph.D., as Hynes believed it was perfectly all right to do.

    “Justice is Mine” still doesn’t mean anything.

  51. 51 idealist707 1, July 7, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    How does anyone, and I mean the woman who dares report a man for sexual abuse, dare do so. Certainly women talk to each other: wife to wife, mother to mother, parents to children, single girls to ….etc.

    Certainly they know what is do-able in their set, sect, community, church, rich, poor, churched or unchurched, etc.

    And the consensus is probably “just forget it”. Poison the guy, but sue? Forget it.

    There are quite simply too many threads leading out of these Gordian knots to even think of cutting it with the sword of justice.

    A simple person has no chance against the community.

    The stench of opened pustulence is too strong for the community to tolerate. So the accuser is punished, not the abuser. Be so sure. Testimony here seems to affirm this. I have no clue. Just pushing an idea.

    Can only say that here in justice’s sacred halls in Sweden, the police give rape victims a hard time. The only ones who are accepted generally are victims of outdoor assault by generally nutty guys.

    I could go on but this will suffice as an intro of Swedish rape cases.

    And an opinion on USA societal effects on justice, which we have discussed before.

  52. 52 bettykath 1, July 7, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    707, yes. Why do women not stop it? There is a strong sense of retaining family secrets. The shame of it. The likelihood of not being believed. Of being blamed for not stopping it. The odds also suggest that she may also have been abused and the shame that she still carries can blind her to what’s happening in her own family – too many wicked memories that she still cannot deal with. And, too, too many women simply don’t have the resources to tell. Will her own family back her up or will they doubt her, after all, he’s such a nice guy. If she persists, she will have a nightmare of dealing with social workers, police, maybe the courts if she is believed and there is no guarantee that she will be believed. Now he is really anger with her for outing him and she will be further abused, emotionally and financially, if not physically. I’ll save my anger for the perpetrator.

  53. 53 Malisha 1, July 7, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    Idealist, a woman can walk OUT on a man AND report him for abuse, or she can walk out on him and NOT report him for abuse, if she has no kids with him. But his own KID cannot walk out on him, whether making allegations or not making allegations. And a wife cannot walk out on a husband, abusive or not, if she has kids with him. It turns into an “undivorce” in which HIS RIGHTS and HER “RIGHTS” and the child’s “rights” are in a three-way (at least) conflict, and the kid essentially has no reliable way to get out of the situation if it turns bad. That is the reason that there can’t be any trustworthy way for kids to report abuse.

    Escape CAN be the only way to deal with certain abuse. Kids don’t get that. I’m sure some of Jerry Sandusky’s victims escaped because they were not his own kids. For some kids, there is no escape. Sometimes identification with the aggressor, and Stockholm Syndrome, are the only ways.

  54. 54 bill mcwilliams 1, July 7, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    What other unethical aspects of the Penn State athletic programs are likely to become exposed? IMO, much more.

  55. 55 idealist707 1, July 7, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    I am sure that for your two voices there arm many others, by the millions. These are the fruits of paternalism, equally ugly in all parts of the world.

    There are other women here who have defended women’s right to abortion, contraceoption, to their own bodies.

    They and others could also speak and strengthen your voices

    Bu fighting from below is a tough position when it goes against all you have been trained since birth.
    Just as it is or men who must also decide, bow the
    neck or starve, including your family too. But some start early as bullies, learn how to bully, and know that women are the ultimate slave to tell what to do.

    You know what the last 100 years have meant for women: suffrage, etc. But there is in terms of the informal barriers so much left to change.

    What a revolution WW2 was for women who made money then. And after a brief romance with homemaking aftet that, they were forced out on the market, competing with men. Force to actually and calculated by t¨he corporations. Mothering and the homes castle counted for nothing on the corporate scales.

    And since then the race has never ceased.

    A woman has to be twice as good as men to get the job.
    Fortunately, that is not too difficult. Old saying.

    But for justice, the woman has the whole paternalistic steered community against her. And that is simply impossible to beat. Like a Hollywood farce. A new genre? Or is it on the tele now?

    Speaking of stats, we were not. How are the stats on the number of women lawyers compared to men over 3 decades say?

    I leave the word back to you who know. I was never integrated in the American system. But I have a naive sense of justice. It has not died yet. Go to it.

  56. 56 idealist707 1, July 7, 2012 at 8:14 pm

    Bill,

    Do you believe any system of high level sports is ethical? Or we can limit that to college football if you wish.
    I support Barkin’s last suggestion on annihilation of all collegiate sport—as I understood it.

    Good night, it’s 2:15 AM.

  57. 57 Otteray Scribe 1, July 7, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    Bill McW.,
    I just watched the last half of “The Shawshank Redemption” again. During the scene where state police and district attorney were closing in on the corrupt warden, I could not help but think of Penn State. I had this fantasy of prosecutors knocking on the door of the top dogs there and how they might react.

  58. 58 bettykath 1, July 7, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    If Freh does a complete job he will probably find that there is an active sex trade that reaches to Harrisburg. It’s more likely that he will limit the investigation to Penn State.

  59. 59 Curious 1, July 7, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    ID707
    Mother Teresa believed in suffering – that it was a gift from God to share in Christ’s suffering. No painkillers were permitted. Her orphanages were not great places for kids. Maybe she kept them from dying, but there was no shortage of physical abuse. Donations were directed to opening more convents – not improving the care of the sick and dying. It has been suggested that her medical care was “haphazard at best”. She did not support any medical education by her nuns. In my opinion, she was a woman of the 16th century who had awfully good pr.

  60. 60 Curious 1, July 7, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    ID707

    I’m interested in your perception of rape charges in Sweden and how that might impact the charges against Julian Assange.

  61. 61 bill mcwilliams 1, July 7, 2012 at 11:26 pm

    idealist707:

    “Bill,

    Do you believe any system of high level sports is ethical? Or we can limit that to college football if you wish”

    ASPECTS may or may not be ethical. Since most people are quite willing to cross lines and disregard the little man on their shoulder whispering ” that’s wrong, don’t do it” – I’m not sure just how much ethics can be expected, but
    I would favor much stronger sanctions – not outright, total elimination of intercollegiate athletics competition.

  62. 62 Malisha 1, July 8, 2012 at 12:49 am

    Mother Teresa opposed birth control in 60 developing countries; she directly contributed to policies that were disastrous for women and children. She did all this for her own self-aggrandizing mythical “spirituality.” She spouted off about how grateful she was to share in the suffering of the tormented — but she shared from a safe seat.

  63. 63 idealist707 1, July 8, 2012 at 3:59 am

    Re: Shawshank Redemption, have seen it twice at long interval on regular TV. Gripping picture of what it reveals, but definitely not violence or visually overplayed. The title lost them 10 million; the lack of an understanding woman characterd on the outside waiting faithfully lost another 15 million—IOW not a Hollywood standard. The wiki calling it for “assault” instead of sexual assault, or simply rape is prudish and disrespectful to the matter-of-fact film treatment of the brutality, of which we saw little in the film.

    The movie in no way shows the bonding and eventual homosexuality which cuuld have been there between the two leading “good guys”. Being without life experience of “bonding” of any sort, I took it as “a platonic relationship where the two found that they could find each other in hell and could rely on each other. Recommend highly

    Covers many issues of our incaarceration system. There are several more issues waiting to be covered. As an Hollywood film, it is easy for social conservatives to diss it.

  64. 64 idealist707 1, July 8, 2012 at 4:09 am

    BettyKath,

    Interesting angle. Jocks have their groupies. One groupie who did me, bragged about her making the entire football team.

    This could be a phenomenon which emerges in high school and becomes part of the “boy culture” which persists at least through college. Whether a trade wiich involves money in involved is unsure, but you may have reason to suspect it.

  65. 65 idealist707 1, July 8, 2012 at 5:07 am

    Curious,

    Mother Teresa
    =============
    Thanks for the MT info. Worse than I expected. One can draw the conclusion on the small scale that the nuns were there as butt wipers, as one of our commenters here defined his work, NOT givers of trust and comfort or healing. Surely JC would be disappointed. Won’t waste time on characteriizing MT.

    Julian Assange
    ===============
    I’ll hope into my case as I’ve commented on it before at JT’s.
    It is a classic, fairly well executed honey-pot CIA operation, but likely Swedish police, government, and other element (Swedish secret police Säpo) were definitely involved. USA can not investigate openly an alleged crime committed in Sweden, at least not yet.

    The Swedish planners (SÄPO) analyzed the USA info, adopted the suggested standard scheme used by all such organs, which includes analysing the targets habits and weaknesses. Fame in certain circles, parties, receptions, wine and willing women, all of the women competing to host a party for him and spend the night in bed with him and brag later.

    The usual choosing was done, at least one wss chosen, coached as to assure she would succeed as to his likes, etc. This was done by Swedish police operative police who is even later involved in contact with the duped honey pot through private social contact. Thus deniability assured
    Honeypot won the competition to have the party, and as hostess won the other game too.

    It is alleged that he had intercourse with condom, had a repeat one when she was half-awake where she inquired if he was shielded and he replied no. She allegedly did not break off intercourse at that point or later.

    The complaint emerged, whether through solely her own volition, or with help from others. Her complaint was registered. The odd thing was that the investigating officer was the same friend from before, an active lesbian who has driven campaigns against sexual abuse of women.
    Generally speaking such a position and activism is not cause fo general disparagement from the public—-although involvement ia an official capacity with a friend is a no-no, and sharply criticized in the press.

    SO involvement as a investigation, coaching and promoting the courage of the complainant, and effecting the course of the investigation was judged improper in the newspapers. To what effect I don’t know.

    The DA wished to question Assange, which he officially offered to do through his attorney in England. This has not been accepted by the DA, on what grounds is not clear. It would seem clear that the info would be the same in both instances. So the conclusion is thet it is intended to arrest him in Sweden, let him be extradited to the USA for trial there on USA request direct to the Swedish government.

    It is self-evident that you don’t prepare and start such an operation if you don’t have prior approval all the way up on the Swedish law and political sides. In previous cases the Foreign minister has been the one signing for the government.

    This could have played out in óther NATO countries, although less likely in some. But Sweden has added to the list of rape examples not covered before.
    I won’t try to inform but am sure that official information in English is available on the net, both as standard tourist info, and as a service to journalists.

    That he entered her while she was not awake and aware of his entry, in an unprotected manner, opposed by but allegedly accepted by her, he therefore violated her rights to effectively say no. Similar judgements have been made in cases of intoxicated or incapacitated women, I believe.

    Am sure at some point that someone uttered the famous phrase: “We got him”. Bets?

  66. 66 idealist707 1, July 8, 2012 at 5:17 am

    Sports were once an amateur activity, for the love of the game. As soon as money, profit, in short busines enters, then tyrannicism and corruption follow. Tyrannicism has been generally accepted as the business worlds way of operating. No voting here. And in most caes if closely
    examined no ethics either.

  67. 67 leejcaroll 1, July 9, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    I neveer thought of the connection of birth control policies with Mother Teresa and her work. All you heard reported was how wonderful se was.
    I(t always amazes and saddens me when people will say to someone in chronic intractable pain “G-d never gives you more then you can handle” or “You (or I am) were blessed by being given this pain.” Suffering is good and from G-d and therefore I will continue to help you uiffer (which it seems maybe that was really what MT was doing) is, I owuld think, an affront to Jesus or whomever you believe your G-d to be (if you have one). If not an affront to Mother Nature.


  1. 1 Programme to address bullying, low self-esteem launches for children - GROWGENIC Trackback on 1, July 17, 2012 at 3:01 am

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