All Nine Wounded in New York Were Shot By NYPD Officers

Reports now indicate that all nine wounded bystanders in the recent shooting near the Empire State building were shot not by the gunman, Jeffrey Johnson, 58, (left) but by police officers.

Witnessed have complained that officers appeared to fire “randomly” in the confrontation, but the NYPD insists that the officers acted appropriately in facing the gunman. Johnson began the shooting by walking up to his former boss at Hazan Imports, Steve Ercolino, 41, (right above) and shooting him three times.

Victim Robert Asika said that the officers appeared to be spraying shots and that he saw at least two other people hit by officers.
NYPD Commissioner Kelly said that Johnson drew his .45 caliber handgun as the officers approached. The officers proceeded to fire 16 rounds, but Kelly insisted that “These officers … had absolutely no choice.” Johnson never fired at the officers.

There has been a long controversy over the switch of police officers to automatic or semi-automatic weapons with the capability if firing dozens of bullets in a clip. Critics have charged that the rate of fire has increased due to the switch with rising numbers of bystander injuries.

The question is whether someone like Asika could sue. Courts generally treat such shootings as covered by immunity rules and thus insulated from civil liability. The wounded could claim negligence in the use of lethal force by the department, but the police tend to get a great deal of deference in facing a deadly threat, particularly with someone who has already killed an individual.

The most notable case was that of Ruby Ridge, Idaho. In 1992, police sought to arrest Randy Weaver. The confrontation resulted in the death of Weaver’s son Sammy, his wife Vicki, their family dog Striker, and Deputy US Marshal William Francis Degan. The surviving family members sued and secured a settlement of $100,000 for Randy Weaver and $1 million for each of the daughters. Twelve agents were later disciplined and both the investigation and prosecution of the Weavers were criticized by officials like FBI director Louis Freeh. FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi was indicted for manslaughter in 1997 by the Boundary County, Idaho prosecutor but it was later transferred to federal courts and dismissed on the basis of sovereign immunity.

Here is a video from the scene and the confrontation.

Source: Gaurdian

73 thoughts on “All Nine Wounded in New York Were Shot By NYPD Officers

  1. If anyone knows anything different, please correct me. I have looked at the NYPD firearms training protocol and there is a dearth of combat shooting training. There is a vast difference between qualifying on the range at paper targets and combat shooting training. For one thing, combat shooting is complex, intensive, takes more time and is more expensive than just running through the minimum amount of ammunition. Combat shooting trains the officer (among other things) to have more situational awareness and look downrange from the target. Target fixation can get whoever is behind the target shot.

    Secondly, the NYPD has taken the semi-automatic Glock pistols and modified them to work on double action only, with a 12 pound trigger pull. With that kind of hard trigger pull, it is a wonder an officer could hit a target as big as a bus, let alone fine targeting on the perp. For those who do not know, double action means the pistol is no longer truly a semi-automatic, but works more like the old west revolver where the trigger not only has to fire the shot, but to force the hammer back as well. This modification makes the firearm more dangerous to bystanders, not less.

  2. Imagine an America living the NRA wet dream of an armed populace. Instead of a couple of trained professionals shooting up the sidewalks of New York you could have 15-20 yahoos in various stages of skill, sobriety and mental competence. Some of them might actually know who the actual target is while others only know that they see someone shooting a man on the street.

    This is in broad daylight on the street so now put them all in a darkened movie theater with smoke bombs and panicked people. How high could the body count go?

  3. I sure hope jobs will be lost, and that the NYPD takes a good long look at whatever gun safety training they give.

    This is why we need an armed populace. That way, the cops would have an excuse for shooting random people.

  4. I’m sure the risk management people for the City of New York have ample experience setting aside reserves to pay claims of police action. This reserve will be heavy 7 figures.

  5. Nick, those alterations to the police issued Glock pistols with the 12-pound trigger pull are a tort looking for a lawyer. Wonder if NYPD is self-insured? I have a feeling no insurance company would be willing to touch them, given their history in recent years.

    I cannot even hit a target with a trigger pull of more than about 5 to 5.5 pounds. Whatever genius thought that one up needs to have some of the settlement come from his or her retirement fund.

  6. To “Otteray Scribe”:
    Oh, I’ll correct you, all right… Your entire second paragraph is wrong!

    “Secondly, the NYPD has taken the semi-automatic Glock pistols and modified them to work on double action only…
    “For those who do not know, double action means the pistol is no longer truly a semi-automatic, but works more like the old west revolver where the trigger not only has to fire the shot, but to force the hammer back as well. This modification makes the firearm more dangerous to bystanders, not less.”

    Huh??? NO semi-automatic pistol works this way, nor can it be “modified” to do so…
    A “double action” pistol means THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you wrote. There are NO SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOLS that make the trigger force back the hammer… NONE. Only REVOLVERS do that. Period.

    Please use Google to research the Glock pistol under discussion, and pistols in general.

    There is absolutely no “safety” issue with the pistol. NOTHING about that weapon is unsafe or dangerous, As always, this is a case of police officers without proper “shoot/don’t shoot” training and guidelines.

    Two officers fired a reported 16 shots in the most crowded city in America. THAT is the problem. Period.

  7. To clarify my point about the trigger:
    The trigger does NOT “force back the hammer”. The slide does. The trigger is attached to a spring, and the strength of that spring is what causes the 12-pound trigger pull.

    The heavy trigger pull makes it more difficult to pull the trigger, yes, but this is in no way connected to any hammer movement or cocking. Again: the slide does that.

    I’m a professional writer, so I just wanted to make sure that my words were clear.

  8. Of course, the officers knew that they would not be held responsible for any collateral damage caused by them and therefore didn’t bother to focus on or even properly identify their intended target.

  9. Tom, the article you link to has the following:

    …the NYPD requires it to operate in “double action ONLY” mode. Not only that, they raise the trigger pull weight from the designed pull of 10 pounds to 12 pounds. Its the same story for the Glock. What used to be a factory-issue 5.5 pounds of pressure required to trip the trigger becomes a 12 pound monstrosity.

    Emphasis mine. I rest my case.

  10. Last week a mad man ran wild with a kitchen knife in N.Y.
    The police managed to shoot him dead – WOW – they don’t know where the legs or arms are located ? until they learn, disarm them.

  11. Regarding the glock modification discussion…most semi-auto handguns are DA/SA, and some DAO ( double-action only). Double-action indicates the trigger pulls back the hammer/ striker and releases it. For many, such as Glocks, it is not true double-action, as the hammer/striker may be in a mid- position rather than all the way forward. However, it is very true that most all semi-autos can function in what’s called double-action or double action only. Most police agencies seem to prefer DAO so that there is a heavier trigger pull before firing, to prevent accidental discharge. The trade-off is the longer the trigger pull, the less accurate the shot.

  12. The use of deadly force was justified. The guy had just murdered someone by shooting him in the head five times with a 45. He pulls the gun on the cops approaching him and points it at them. The cops reasonably feared being killed and shot at the guy until he went down. There’s no time to wait until there are no bystanders around. The cops fired16 shots. Seven shots hit the guy in the chest. That doesn’t seem like they’re just firing wildly to me. Three bullets were found in the body and four passed through (do NYPD cops use hollow points? if not, maybe they should)). Of the bystanders injured, three were struck by bullets and six by fragments. Anyone commenting should watch the video first.

  13. Of course, the officers knew that they would not be held responsible for any collateral damage caused by them and therefore didn’t bother to focus on or even properly identify their intended target.

    I’m sure that is exactly the thought that was going through their minds in the split second after a murderer a few feet away pulled a .45 and pointed it at them. /rolleyes.

  14. “The cops fired16 shots. Seven shots hit the guy in the chest.”

    Woo! almost 50%. If you’re going to be in a position where you’re forced to fire while surrounded by innocents, you need to be held to a higher standard.

  15. Waldo:

    I don’t think anyone is saying the shooting wasn’t justified as being in self-defense. The issue is the method and magnatude of response and the amount of firepower employed. 7 of 16 hits sounds like good shooting to me and I know that one round will not typically stop a human but the police’s goal is to protect the public. Nine wounded? Some wonder if this was the best way to accomplish that goal or if something else could have been tried. A question is not usually an attack.

  16. Regarding double action. From what I have been able to glean from various web sites, is the NYPD Glocks have been rigged to leave the hammer on half-cock instead of full cock. Much harder trigger pull that way. With 12 pounds, I would not be able to hit the broad side of a barn, and I am a pretty good shot. I agree with the observation above that the hit rate on the perp was actually pretty good, all things considered. Unfortunately, there was way too much collateral damage.

  17. Otteray is correct about the problem with the 12 pound trigger pull. It is ridiculous. Seattle PD went to a heavy trigger pull several years ago and I had commented to many this idea was more of an administrator’s whishfull thinking that somehow it will prevent accidental shootings but the solution is worse than the problem.

    I would have to look at the investigation notes, diagrams, and such before I make a judgement as to how justified this is, but going after one man and shooting 9 bystanders, that is very bad at face value.

    I believe the big factor would be was the suspect actively shooting at others at the time the police engaged him with lethal. That would be more mitigating. The spray and pray approach does not work in crowded areas however.

  18. This is why I bang my head against the wall every time someone complains that a shooting officer, “..didn’t have to kill him–he should have shot him in the leg”. Police officers cannot shoot. They don’t train sufficiently to shoot, the stress and uncertainty of the situation makes it difficult to shoot, and none of us would fair any better. To suggest that they should do anything but attempt to use deadly force by aiming for center mass is insanity. These officers surely were shooting to kill, and this was the result. I say, bring on Robocop!

  19. @Jack Reacher and Otteray Scribe

    You have given us some good information but perhaps obscured the key point.

    Double Action refers specifically to the two functions performed by the trigger in pulling the hammer back and then releasing the hammer to fire the weapon.

    Single Action refers to the mode of operation in which the trigger performs the single function of releasing the hammer to fire the weapon.

    Of course the hammer is always pushed back by the slide. The key point is whether the hammer must first be locked back to fire the weapon as in Single Action mode, or whether the weapon can be fired with the hammer down in the rest position which is what happens in Double Action mode.

    Double Action Only refers to a semi auto pistol that fires in Double Action mode on every shot.

    In contrast Double Action auto pistols typically fire double action on the first shot and then in single action mode on the second and succeeding shots.

    You and Otteray Scribe have it exactly right.

  20. @Gyges “you need to be held to a higher standard.”

    I too have concerns regarding police use of their weapons.

    But I am not sure that ordinary human beings are capable of much better performance under real life conditions.

    I am going to assert with out evidence that the performance of these officers is not much different form the performance of other officers and the military in similar circumstance.

    I think we need to remember this is not target shooting at Camp Perry.

    When lives are on the line, nerves, situational awareness and other psychological factors come into play and all too frequently reduce accuracy.

  21. Mike,

    “I too have concerns regarding police use of their weapons.

    But I am not sure that ordinary human beings are capable of much better performance under real life conditions. ”

    Right. Which is why I said “higher” standard. I don’t want ordinary human beings to be the ones responding, I want people who can handle this kind of situation. Functioning well in situations like this is a skill, and like other skills it takes practice and training. OS said it best:

    “There is a vast difference between qualifying on the range at paper targets and combat shooting training. For one thing, combat shooting is complex, intensive, takes more time and is more expensive than just running through the minimum amount of ammunition. Combat shooting trains the officer (among other things) to have more situational awareness and look downrange from the target. Target fixation can get whoever is behind the target shot.”

  22. @Tom Stedham “There is absolutely no “safety” issue with the pistol. NOTHING about that weapon is unsafe or dangerous, ”

    Actually the Glock’s have quite a controversial history. The first weapons issued in NYC had a trigger pull that was considered light.

    Some believed that the light trigger pull contributed to badly aimed or unanticipated shots being fired which jeopardized officer and citizen safety.

    The weapons were then modified to have a heavier trigger pull. The heavier trigger pull may well have reduced unanticipated or inadvertent firing in the heat of battle.

    But as others have noted on this blog, the heavier trigger pull may have negative effects on accuracy.

    “There is absolutely no “safety” issue with the pistol. NOTHING about that weapon is unsafe or dangerous,”

    If what you mean to say is that the weapon is not defective then I would agree with you.

    But I would argue that there is always a safety issue with a fire arm. Those who forget that do so at their own and others peril.

  23. Unfortunately, there was way too much collateral damage.

    I agree with you and hope there might be ways to lessen the danger of bystander injury in such situations. But, making some sort of rule that police should not shoot if there’s any bystanders around or unless there’s near certainty of hitting their target or only shoot once and wait a bit to see if you incapacitated him before firing again, just doesn’t seem feasible to me. That’s a rule for getting yourself shot in a situation like these officers faced.

  24. Civil Rights 101. Sovereign immunity can be claimed by the State. In some states a municipality can claim sovereign immunity because it is defined by State law as part of the state, same with a county government. This does not apply to the officers sued individually and in their official capacity. So Professor please be advised of the parameters of that defense. The Superior officers can also be named in a civil rights suit. 42 U.S.C. Section 1983. See also Section 1985 for conspiracy. Section 1988 for atty fees. The books on the shelves in many libraries are covered in dust and many lawyers can not find this stuff on the internet. My point here though is that the article fails to grasp the limits of immunity defenses in a federal civil rights suit. Here the cops did not intend to shoot all the bystanders. But when one fires a gun it is not the same as negligently leaving a banana peel on the sidewalk.

    My bark is with Mayor Bloomberg. He goes on tv and yaks about gun control. It was his guns that were out of control. He can start by implementing some classes in aiming straight.

  25. Frankly had it right early on and Kudos to OS for the primer for non-gun owners like myself. Why is it when the police do not hit their target, the losses are considered collateral damage? They are human and they have just been shot by the police and not the so called shooter.

  26. Otteray Scribe:

    I’m getting swamped with email. My comment was re: your original statement:

    “For those who do not know, double action means the pistol is no longer truly a semi-automatic, but works more like the old west revolver where the trigger not only has to fire the shot, but to force the hammer back as well. This modification makes the firearm more dangerous to bystanders, not less.”

    First, Glocks don’t even have hammers; they have “strikers.” Second: the trigger does NOT move the hammer. The trigger (spring) only makes the hammer FALL, NOT COCK. So, to re-clarify (again) my original point:

    There is no trigger “forcing the hammer back”… The SLIDE does that. We can argue about other semi-auto pistols, where the first DA shot does that, but that’s not the case here, so it’s irrelevant.

    The trigger spring, of whatever pull it is set at, only determines at what point the hammer (or striker) will go forward, not backward (except on the first shot on other pistols, which I already pointed out is not relevant to this discussion)…

    The SLIDE cocks the HAMMER (or on Glocks, the STRIKER).

  27. Lona,
    Shoot to wound or disable is the stuff of movie fiction. All law enforcement as well as military are taught to aim for center mass, which is the torso. If deadly force is needed, then one shoots to stop….permanently. Unless you have spent time on a firing range, you have no idea how hard it is to even hit an 18-inch wide target every time, let alone putting rounds into the bulls-eye. In this case, the problem is compounded by the police being handicapped by having all their pistols set with a twelve pound trigger pull.

    The only time aiming for some other body part or even a weapon is an acceptable tactic, is if the officer is a sniper. Even then, a sniper must have a good rest position and excellent sight picture. This video shows how it can work in an ideal situation where a police sniper does an exemplary job.

  28. @Tom Stedham “Please use Google to research the Glock pistol under discussion, and pistols in general.”

    Actually Wikipedia under Semi-automatic pistol has a pretty good article that would help you learn to distinguish Double Action Only, Double Action, and Single Action semi auto pistols.

    “Some modern semi-automatic pistols are double action only (DAO); that is, once a round is chambered, each trigger pull will cock the hammer, striker, or firing pin, and will additionally release the same to fire a cartridge in one continuous motion. “

  29. Tom, I defer to you on the Glock. I do not own one, and moreover, never plan to buy one. For one thing, the damn thing is uncomfortable in my hand when I heft one at the gun shop. I much prefer a couple of other semi-auto brands. My favorite semi-auto pistol is a Browning, with my Walther a close second.

  30. Good video as to the fact of showing a great shot. I still insist that police are too easy on the trigger and should handle many situation much different than they do.

  31. Otteray Scribe:
    I’m almost 50; I’m a M1911 fan for life. The old ways are often still the best! I really wish the NYPD could change the trigger pull and offer more realistic training, including “judgement calls”, but…

    they are far too busy spending huge amounts of money spying on American citizens to do that, I suppose.

  32. BigFatMike,

    If what you say is correct, then the weapon seems situation adapted, with reservation for the pull on the first shot. By that I mean, a pistol dropped in scuffle will not go off, and one grabbed by a perp, will, due to his general lack of experience, not be fired so easily. (Latter is an assumption.) It is unclear if the pull diminishes with second and subsequent shot.

    The succeeding shots done in SA mode is proper when actual repeat firings are needed.

    Defective police training seems to still be a question.
    How wise is it to engage a single gunman with multiple police weapons? Don’t know but seems unwise. What was the info the police had received aa to number of gunmen? Were they expecting more than one.
    Were they equipped with automaqtic weapons as implied earlier?

  33. http://www.chuckhawks.com/trigger_options.htm

    Trigger Options of the Semi-Automatic Service Pistol

    By David Tong

    The dawn of the reliable semi-automatic pistol began in 1896, with the announcement of the famous Mauser “Broomhandle,” so named because of the walnut grip thusly shaped. Firing the 7.63mm (.30 cal) Mauser bottlenecked round at nearly 1400 fps, it heralded the beginning of smokeless powder use in handguns and was also the first autoloading pistol used in military application.

    So popular an item it was that individual officers of the British Army carried it in harm’s way. These included one Winston Churchill, who used it in a cavalry action during the Boer War. His famous account of having to shoot, and hit, enemy soldiers in battle may be the first written record of an autoloading pistol fired in anger.

    The early pistols all used the so-called “single-action” (SA) design. Whether the pistol had an exposed hammer, like the revolvers they proposed to replace, or were striker fired, a la the famous Luger, the salient feature of the single-action semi-automatic pistol is that the weapon is automatically re-cocked after firing. A single action pistol cannot be fired when the hammer is down. The principle advantage of most single action pistols is that, when cocked, the firing mechanism can be released and fired with a very short press (usually less than 1/4″) of the trigger.

    Other advantages of this system include first shot accuracy, because there is minimal mechanical disturbance to maintaining precise aim with the short press; consistency of the handling/manual of arms with other firearms, such as rifles and shotguns which use a similar trigger; and repeat shots are accomplished in exactly the same fashion until the magazine is empty.

    If one is properly trained with firearms, one learns to keep one’s finger off the trigger until the decision to fire has been made and the sights are aligned on target. This does not matter if you are in a hunting situation, at the target range, or shooting in self-defense. Usually, when the shooter starts his pistol in a “ready-low” position after drawing from the holster, the pistol is brought from a point about midway between beltline and torso, the safety catch (if equipped) is released, and the trigger finger only touches the trigger when the sights reach alignment. This deployment methodology does not change with action type and is designed to minimize negligent discharges.

    Examples of the single-action auto include the renowned Colt Model 1911 “Government Model,” the Browning P-35 Hi-Power, the German P-08 Luger, and the Russian Tokarev TT33. Literally millions of these handguns have been manufactured, and until comparatively recently were the most prevalent designs used by military forces around the world.

    Nowadays, the 1911 pistol is widely used in both civilian target and combat competition, as well as by elite military and police units. The primary reason is the trigger system, which makes hitting one’s target a comparatively simple and repeatable matter. It is far easier to hold a three pound pistol steady when squeezing a four pound trigger, than it is to shoot the same weight sidearm with a 12 pound first round pull, and so it is my personal preference.

    In the event of a failure to fire with a single action pistol, the slide must be manually cycled to clear the dud round and bring another cartridge from the magazine into the chamber. This procedure also re-cocks the hammer, leaving the pistol ready to fire. This is known as “tap, rack, bang” among some shooters and instructors. (The tap is when the shooter slaps the bottom of the magazine to insure that it is completely seated, the rack is when he manually operates the slide, and the bang–hopefully–occurs when he pulls the trigger the second time.)

    There have been, and continue to be, many developments designed to remove the specter of a cocked pistol while still making the weapon capable of being instantly fired. The reason for this development was safety. “Safety” might be a misnomer for a training issue, yet police agencies, militaries, civilians, and liability attorneys all seemingly desire a pistol that is ready to fire, but without the compressed springs or that frightening cocked hammer. In a defense situation, some experts have opined that it is an advantage to have a heavier first shot trigger squeeze to reduce the likelihood of a negligent discharge. Another stated advantage is that the double action (DA) auto allows for a defective primer to be struck a second time by a second trigger pull.

    The German Walther factory released the so-called double-action, or trigger-cocking auto in 1929, in the Model PP, or “Polizei Pistole.” With this pistol, the first round is triggered exactly as one would shoot a double action revolver, merely aim and squeeze, without the necessity of releasing a safety. The trigger cams the hammer back before it is released to drop onto the firing pin. After the first shot, the pistol is self-cocking and reverts to normal single action operation. The safety lever, located on the left side of the slide, allows for the safe lowering of the cocked hammer onto a locked firing pin and prevents operation of the trigger when applied.

    However, as stated earlier, that first round trigger pull is generally much longer and quite a bit heavier than the subsequent SA trigger pull of the same pistol. Hit probability for the first round suffers unless much more time is taken for training to overcome a system designed more to prevent negligent discharge than encourage accuracy.

    After the U.S. Army adopted a high capacity, double action pistol in 1985 there was a rush by American police agencies to follow suit. Examples of first-generation double-action designs include the German Walther Models PP and P-38, W.W.II service pistols; the Beretta M92, which is the current U.S. military handgun; and the traditional double-action Smith & Wessons, e.g., the Models 39, 59, 645, and 4006.

    Some pistols use a hybrid of the two trigger systems, allowing for either mode of first shot employment. The Czech CZ-75 is that country’s official service pistol, and uses either a DA first shot, or the SA cocked and locked carry of the Colt 1911. The Heckler & Koch USP, Variant One, has a similar system. Both allow for loading and unloading while on safe for administrative handling and second strike capability.

    I would classify the Glock “Safe Action,” in terms of the shooter interface, as a single-action, even though its concealed striker is cocked by the short trigger stroke of 5.5 pounds and is, by definition, a trigger-cocking design. (The BATF classifies the Glock design as “double action only.”) It does not offer second-strike capability, however, and so the manual of arms in case of a cartridge malfunction is exactly the same as a single-action pistol (tap, rack, bang). In reality, the Glock design is neither SA nor DA, but something new.

  34. bigfatmike is correct. Both Otteray Scribe and Tom Stedham are somewhat confused. A DAO is still a semi-automatic. Only a DA/SA has the trigger/firing mechanism left in the cocked position after the first round is fired.

    As to Otteray Scribe’s assumption that the trigger is placed in a half-cocked position after a round is fired; I have never seen a firearm of that design. -The half-cocked position is a safety-position. (meaning the gun won’t fire if the trigger is pulled). Many left-handed shooters used to carry their pistol in a half-cocked position because it was safe, and it was easier to pull the hammer back than it was to release the safety.

  35. The M1911 is one of the best combat shooting firearms out there. So what if the magazine only holds seven rounds. It is a comfortable pistol to shoot, and the big subsonic .45 slug is not likely to cause as much collateral damage, even as it has much more stopping power than a 9mm. And as for reloading, the seven round mag is not a handicap in a combat situation if the officer practices speed reloading as taught by Cpl. Travis Tomasie.

  36. @Tom Stedham “classify the Glock “Safe Action,” in terms of the shooter interface, as a single-action, even though its concealed striker is cocked by the short trigger stroke of 5.5 pounds and is, by definition, a trigger-cocking design. (The BATF classifies the Glock design as “double action only.”)

    Thanks, this is interesting stuff.

    I personally would describe the weapon as Double Action Only, but apparently there are shooters who believe the, shall we say, ergonomics of the weapon are best described as Single Action.

    I suppose the most reasonable description might depend on whether one is giving a technical description of the operating mechanism or orienting shooters prior to practice on the range.

  37. Otteray Scribe, NYC is probably self insured up to a certain dollar amount and then insured for over that amount. That’s the way many cities operate anyway.

  38. I first started carrying my 9mm Glock 17 in 1990 and it was my duty gun until I retired this year. So after 40,000 or so rounds or so fired through it I would still consider it to be something to rely on.

    One of the reasons I selected this gun was because I had been accustomed to carrying revolvers, as the S&W Model 66 .357 was what I carried previously. I did not want to get into a stress situation and revert back to revolver style firing, forgetting the various external safety releases and others. Plus the higher magazine capacity was a big plus.

    One advantage of revolver type action is that one can cock back and lock the hammer which will cause the trigger to retreat backward and this results in a very light and short trigger pull. The primary reason for this is accuracy. Otherwise to pull the trigger Double Action style is significantly longer and heavier but it is much faster.

    With a Glock pistol the production behavior does not allow this function. But the trigger pull is about medium.

    A good aid in shooting accuracy is to to rest one’s chin on the shooting arm at the top of the arm with the back of the jaw against the shoulder. This fixes a person’s head and eyes against the back sights of the gun and minimizes paralax from the hand moving the sights to the side. I use this with a modified Weaver stance. However the drawback to this is that one cannot be as nimble with the gun during combat shooting due to the linearly locked position as it forces the shooter to move his entire upper body to turn.

    I don’t know what method was used in this shooting. 1 suspect and 9 bystanders? something is horriblly amiss here.

  39. @Darren Smith

    I think you have made some good points and I don’t really disagree with you.

    But it would seem that the number of citizens wounded would have to be considered in relation to the conditions. NYC sidewalks, especially in mid town, are usually packed all through the day. And, apparently, many of those wounded were hit by ricochet which would seem to be fundamentally unpredictable.

    It was truly a terrible situation. And I hope part of after action is to consider what could have been done better.

    But I am not sure I can reasonably criticize the officers on the scene.

  40. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/14/ap-investigation-nearly-1_n_763008.html

    excerpt:

    Nearly $1 billion has been paid over the past decade to resolve claims against the nation’s largest police department, according to an investigation by The Associated Press. The total spending outstrips that of other U.S. cities, though some smaller cities and departments also shell out tens of millions of dollars a year in payouts.

    Taxpayers foot the bill – New York officials say the payments cost less than insurance would, and officers themselves don’t usually bear personal responsibility.

    The $964 million in payouts covers everything from brutality cases to patrol-car wrecks to stationhouse accidents, and it includes settlements and trial awards. Some police officers have been sued again and again – including one officer at least seven times on excessive force and brutality claims. Some law firms have made it their primary business to sue the city.

  41. I don’t think anyone is blaming the individual officers as much as their supervisors and those at the top of the food chain. Make the pistols hard to use and hit a target, combat shooing training nonexistent as far as I can determine, and lack of required practice. I am aware that some police officers may belong to gun clubs and participate in combat shooting competitions, but those would be the exception and not the rule.

    The hardest scrutiny should be focused on the decision makers, not the street cops who do the best they can with what they are given.

  42. Frankly: The question isn’t police ‘self defense’ (what? no bullet-proof vests?). The debate is over the fact that EVERY one of the nine injured were shot by the POLICE, NOT by the nut-case suspect.

  43. bfm, ” And, apparently, many of those wounded were hit by ricochet which would seem to be fundamentally unpredictable.”

    They might not have known where the ricochets would go, but surely they should expect ricochets and, on busy NYC streets, they should expect that ricochets would hit innocent bystanders.

  44. Amadou Bailo Diallo (September 2, 1975 – February 4, 1999) was a 23-year-old Guinean immigrant in New York City who was shot and killed on February 4, 1999 by four New York City Police Department plain-clothed officers: Sean Carroll, Richard Murphy, Edward McMellon and Kenneth Boss, who fired a combined total of 41 shots, 19 of which struck Diallo, outside 1157 Wheeler Avenue in the Soundview section of The Bronx.
    ——–
    Less than 50% accuracy but even so 41 shots by officers NOT in uniform to disarm a man who was armed with a wallet.

    I know this is old, but it is a prime example of shoot first and often. Nothing has changed.

  45. Storm Troopers have better aim. At least they hit nothing at all instead of innocent people.

    bettykath, the old police commissioner from then claimed on his radio talk show that “PEOPLE DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKS. IT’S REALLY EASY TO EMPTY A CLIP INTO A SUSPECT”. Yeah, that was his reasoning for that shooting – a lot of cops all scared and they all had to fire all of their bullets at a guy. Right.

  46. Otteray Scribe, I beg to differ, and thank for inviting people to do so.

    I think you are very correct about the vast difference between going to a regular range and combat shooting training. A range with shooting lanes is intended to make shooting about as taxing on the brain as bowling (orderly rows, paper targets, good lighting, etc.), while real combat shooting is extremely taxing. Combat training should teach combat skills, including movement and reacting to changes in the environment (and not including things like picking up brass, at least until long after the shooting’s over).

    I have to disagree about the modified trigger pull making the firearm more dangerous to bystanders, not less. First, I believe that the NYPD trigger pull was created because someone decided (wrongly) that light trigger pulls are more dangerous. The correct answer is that all guns are dangerous, whether they are target guns with light trigger pulls or double-action guns with heavy pulls. Some very accurate revolver shooters actually put heavier springs on their guns so that they can shoot faster. What really makes the most difference between a hit and a miss is training, training, and training.

  47. It all became so confusing with all the detailed descriptions of guns, tactics etc, while the problem started out simple. : Police have a too loose hand on the triggers, proven over and over and over on this site and dozen of others.
    Now it’s been boiled down to the excuse, that they are not trained enough, and not experienced enough !! Hello….. How can they be trusted and given a gun ? Why ?
    This parent to a suicidal son, called 911, they came, tazed the boy to the ground ( parents ground ) he was on his knees, unarmed, tried to get up, and ups got shot in his stomach and died…… in front of his chocked parents, they called to get help to their suicidal boy !………

  48. Lona, you are right. One should say *good* training. It seems from your example–I remember reading that case–that “training” may now mean instruction on how to overreact, because the most important thing is that the police officer goes home that night…

  49. I know this is old, but it is a prime example of shoot first and often. Nothing has changed.

    Diallo: innocent, unarmed
    Johnson: murderer, armed, pointed gun at officers

    Sorry, not the same. And, damn right this was an example of shoot first. Does anyone really think that when a murderer points a gun at a cop, the cop should wait to shoot second?

  50. Someone I know very well tried the suicide by cop. He had a weapon and could easily have shot them. He survived b/c the cops had better things to do than kill a man who was hurting. I wasn’t there so don’t know the details, but no shots were fired. This was in a rural community where everyone knows everyone else, not the big bad city where everyone’s a stranger.

  51. The fact that I was referring to, was from April 18th ’12 in California and the man shot dead was George Ramirez,- may God rest his soul,- and was unfortunately one randomly chosen story which there are soooo many of.
    Too many.

  52. I have a nice story too.
    I was vacationing this summer in Florida, in a rental car, when a policeman pulled me over,: Mam do you know the speed limit here ” Yes 30 ” are you
    aware that you are going 35 ? ” Yes Sir ” I showed him my Danish drivers License, and he said : don’t do that again !
    Wow he saved my life. How eternal grateful am I.

  53. i seem to remember that when most u.s. police depts switched from revolvers to semi-autos there were a number of accidental discharges into officers right legs. this may be the reason for the instituting the heavier trigger pull, not bystander safety.

    or not.

  54. I recall a FBI shootout back in 1986 — 2 bad guys, 7 agents; very close quarters, some blocked cars in the middle of a street. A 4 minute gun battle, 145 rounds fired. Bad guys killed, some agents as well, and only one person unharmed.

    Post shooting review had two notable findings concerning the bad guys. First, each bad guy battled on despite suffering several mortal wounds. No, they weren’t hyped up on drugs. Second, each had several wounds to their hands and forearms. The agents fixated on their weapons.

  55. BTW, I hunt with a 4X scoped double action .44 revolver. I need be within 10 feet of whatever I want to hit if I have to get off a quick shot – it’s a long heavy pull to cock and fire the weapon. But when manually cocked and aimed and given a just a little trigger squeeze, I can hit a quarter at 40 yards (maybe not with the first shot, but there will be bullets left in the cylinder when I do).

    That’s the difference between double action and single on a revolver.

  56. Someone said, “Secondly, the NYPD has taken the semi-automatic Glock pistols and modified them to work on double action only, with a 12 pound trigger pull.”

    Glocks are by design “double action only”, NYPD did increase the trigger pull to prevent lazy finger accidental shootings.

    Combat shooting IS necessary for all officers today. Department that do not train this way certainly could be sued over “failure to train” issues.

    I have carried a gun almost daily since 1976. I went from a SW model 66 revolver to single stack 9mm’s to Glock 40’s; from shotgun’s to civilian M-4’s with an Eotech; and have always works where you TRAIN combat style.

    At the end of the day, good shots – bad shots, sometime you have to shoot in a clearly shitty situation.

  57. LONA,

    Are you back in Denmark?

    Your Dr.David.Duke.com post was so early today. (BTW, it lead to a commercial site)

    There are two non-related Americans here in Stockholm.

    Cool to hear your comments on the USA.

  58. A lot of Captain Hindsightis20/20’s here. Must be a tremendous burden to know how things should have worked out in a hostile tense situation…in hindsight. And they say conservatives are dumb…

  59. How about some happy armed citizen stories- where they didn’t shoot any targets they did not intend.

    http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-08-28/story/customer-kills-gunman-during-armed-robbery-attempt-jacksonville-dollar

    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/08/26/armed-citizen-stops-violent-attack-on-cop/

    Maybe the citizens have a better grasp of the power of the situation they voluntarily put themselves in since they know they are 100% responsible for their personal actions? Or maybe they just train better because they are enthusiastic about personal self defense and survival- it is not just a job- it is a life.

    I’m just throwing stuff out here, but you gotta admit- those stories are pretty awesome.

    From the comments on PJ media:

    Police with guns: High Legal Authority, Low Legal Accountability.

    Private Carry Permit holder: Low Legal Authority, High Legal Accountability.

    Now who do you think is going to be more careful using a gun?

  60. 707:
    I take my invitation back ! After checking the credentials of same, I must admit that he doesn’t meet my standards. Sorry, he sounded good ! It just proves how easily we can be deceived. Well….

  61. Lona,

    You never know, he might have a secret spy well-placed in the bosom of the world jewish conspiracy. LOL.

    I go on these mines at times. We all do.

    Am not sure about the anti-zionist site I linked to. But was impressed by all the jewish names. Fabricated? Who knows?

  62. Witnessed have complained that officers appeared to fire “randomly” in the confrontation, but the NYPD insists that the officers acted appropriately in facing the gunman. Johnson began the shooting by walking up to his former boss at Hazan Imports, Steve Ercolino, 41, (right above) and
    shooting him three times.
    ====================
    Riot control.
    ==========
    The most notable case was that of Ruby Ridge, Idaho. In 1992, police sought to arrest Randy Weaver. The confrontation resulted in the death of Weaver’s son Sammy, his wife Vicki, their family dog Striker, and Deputy US Marshal William Francis Degan. The surviving family members sued and secured a settlement of $100,000 for Randy Weaver and $1 million for each of the daughters. Twelve agents were later disciplined and both the investigation and prosecution of the Weavers were criticized by officials like FBI director Louis Freeh. FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi was indicted for manslaughter in 1997 by the Boundary County, Idaho prosecutor but it was later transferred to federal courts and dismissed on the basis of sovereign immunity.
    ===========
    Don’t shoot the kid’s dog.

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