Robertson: Atheists Want People To Be Miserable And To Steal “Your Holiday”

We have previously discussed the war on atheists and agnostics that seems to be accelerating with the rise of people claiming to have no religious affiliation or belief in God in the United States, according to recent polls. There is a steady stream of statements from the national and international campaign by leaders against atheists, who appear to be fair game for hateful, ill-informed rhetoric. While you may have seen this already, Pat Robertson pushed this trend to a new low: telling his many viewers that atheists want to everyone to be miserable because they are miserable. They therefore what “to steal your holiday [Christmas] away from you.”

Here are his words of wisdom:

It’s, well, Christmas all over again. The Grinch is trying to steal our holiday. It’s been so beautiful, the nation comes together, we sing Christmas carols, we give gifts to each other, we have lighted trees, and it’s just a beautiful thing. Atheists don’t like our happiness, they don’t want you to be happy, they want you to be miserable. They’re miserable, so they want you to be miserable. So they want to steal your holiday away from you.

There is obviously a rising concern among political and religious leaders that faith is declining in society. Thus, even though the non-religous is now a majority in places like England, politicians are ratcheting up such rhetoric. Robertson’s rhetoric is particularly raw and inciteful, as are comparisons of atheists and agnostics to terrorists. It is an ironic twist. The effort to leave religious expressions to each citizen (as opposed to religious displays by the government) is viewed as a war on religion. There remains an insistence that the government affirm religious — and generally Christian — values and objects of faith. Robertson’s comments not only reflect a surprising insecurity as to the place of religion but an open hostility to those who want their government to be secular-based.

146 thoughts on “Robertson: Atheists Want People To Be Miserable And To Steal “Your Holiday”

  1. Yes, unless these God botherers are allowed to ram their beliefs into everyones lives they are being threatened. It really is that simple. If anyone anywhere makes the least attempt to recognize a non-mainstream Christian belief they are assaulting the one true God. What a weak little cosmic muffin their God must be.

  2. The god most fundamentalists (of all monotheist religions) seem to believe in appears to have the disposition of a petulant twelve-year-old.

  3. So…..

    But I disagree…. May a folks that I know that are declared atheist…. Are much more happy with themselves than the searching so called religious folks……

    Mesopo….. Exactly….

  4. Otteray Scribe:

    many people are like petulant 12 year olds, probably a case of projection.

    I know atheists who are very messed up people and I know Christians who are crazy.

  5. Bron,

    I’d say that atheists and agnostics and those who are not Christians are getting tired of the holier-than-thou Christians like Robertson who like to shove their religion in other people’s faces.

    It is people like Robertson who are the miserable ones–always looking for problems and finding fault with other people who don’t view the world as they do. Not everyone is or wants to be a Christian–or a member of any organized religion.

  6. Robertson Admits he Blew Election Prediction he Received from God

    submitted by Brian Tashman on Wednesday, 11/21/2012 12:20 pm

    In January, televangelist Pat Robertson told 700 Club viewers that in his annual New Year’s “conversation” with God, the Almighty had revealed to him who the next president would be. Up through Election Day, Robertson harshly criticized President Obama and the Democratic Party while praising Mitt Romney. Then, Robertson’s Christian Broadcasting Network predicted a GOP sweep, leaving Robertson utterly confounded by Obama’s victory.

    Today, responding to a question from a viewer who wondered why her business is struggling since she thought God told her it would be successful, Robertson admitted that he sometimes misses God’s message. “So many of us miss God, I won’t get into great detail about elections but I sure did miss it, I thought I heard from God, I thought I had heard clearly from God, what happened?” Robertson replied, “You ask God, how did I miss it? Well, we all do and I have a lot of practice.”

  7. So bron – if I called you a fat headed ignoramus whos most intelligent emissions were produced from your anus & you got upset that would mean there was some truth to the statement? Thats illogical. Your reaction to my slander has no bearing on its validity

    Its not Christianity that atheists object to. What they object to is the constant efforts to force Christianity on the nation as a function of the government and to the exclusion of all other beliefs.

  8. I laugh at fools but its not prudent to laught at Hitler. That being said in reference to the nut on television who says some outrageous things in order to get money, some observations about truth and happiness might be provident here. No pun intended.

    I am a firm believer in Dog. I celebrate Xmas and New Years, Easter, Flag Day, July 4th, Black Friday, MLK Day, all of those religions days in America.
    When I sit around my great grandparent’s christmas ornaments from Germany displayed on a real xmas tree I celebrate the pagan traditions of the fur tree decorated and the Sinter Klaus guy coming down the chimney. Those are all real Christian values to Robertson but in fact were STOLEN by so called Christians when they moved Christ’s birthday from July to December to cash in on the pagan celebration season and do what they do gbest which is Christian Mingle. If Pat were to know a thing about the thievery of the season by his Christian ancestors and counterparts he would not in good faith (no pun intended) be able to cash in on the celebration of Christ in the winter.

    Randy Newman talked about Robertson in one of his songs:

    He may be a fool but he’s our fool
    If ya think your better than him you’re wrong
    So I went to the park , took some paper along
    and thats where I wrote this song..
    We’re Rednecks, We’re Rednecks,
    We dont know our arse from a hole in the ground…

    –Rednecks, from the Good Ol Boys album 1974.

    I will be completely happy this xmas season. I wont go out on Black Friday and spend away. I wont buy any spoiled nephews any xmas gifts, I wont buy that new car that Chevy has featured with a big xmas red ribbon, I wont go to church on xmas day or xmas eve and I wont give money in the plate when it passes by. I will give some money to some good charities and give some things to some needy people whom I personally know and I will adopt a cat from the cat orphanage and name him Mister December. I will be happy and content. I will celebrate all the pagan Yuletide events.

    But when Sunday rolls around I wont praise the Lard and switch to Crisco on Monday. Nope.

  9. Elaine:

    Exactly, it cuts both ways.

    It isnt freedom from religion, it is freedom of religion. The public square should have room for all beliefs. But government should be secular because there are so many different beliefs [and even if there were only one].

    There is nothing wrong with a Nativity Scene on public property at Christmas. Just as there is nothing wrong with Lord Ganesh being displayed at the appropriate time.

  10. The Islamists hate us for our freedoms.
    The Atheists hate us for our Christmas. Lighted Christmas trees, singing and expensive gifts are all entirely about Baby Jesus.

    We need to be really careful about designating things that targetted groups hate us for.

    Who hates us for our Thanksgiving?
    The Vegetarians need to keep a low profile if they don’t want that label.

  11. Posted – in the New Testament Jesus is asked how to identify false prophets and he makes it quite clear that failure to correctly predict the future is the sign. The Bible also makes clear (though not in the words of JC) what believers are to do with false prophets. Rev Robertson, according to the teachings of the book he states is the inerrant word of God, should be stoned to death.

    This example of his inability to hear God is just the latest, he has a very long string of explicit predictions that have not come to be. I don’t know what the voices in his head are but they have demonstrated that they are not God.

  12. I’ve got nooz fer ya. Atheists ain’t interested in your holiday. As they’ll be left behind with tha jooz, maybe a couple could have your Rollses after the rapcha. I’d like tha pink one ya got from Falwell. Tha one with the latex ez ta clean interior.

  13. “I don’t know what the voices in his head are but they have demonstrated that they are not God.” -Frankly

    lol

  14. “Robertson’s rhetoric is particularly raw and inciteful, as are comparisons of atheists and agnostics to terrorists.”

    ***************************

    Yep, it seems every day I read reports of suicide bombers clutching Sam Harris’ “End of Faith” book and proclaiming “Reason is Great!” in their vernacular of choice as they pull the detonator.

  15. Boy, was I uniformed about how I feel about other people. I was completely unaware of my need to steal holidays, too. Thanks to Pat Robertson, though, I now know how I’m supposed to act. All of us atheists wait for Pat Robertson to tell us how we think just as he tells his followers what they should think. I’m a little confused, though. Since atheism is the freedom from being bound up by belief in ANY theology, aren’t we also stealing Chanakah and Rosh Hashanah, Eids and Ramadan? Don’t we want to make Jews and Muslims and Scientologists and Hindus and Buddhists miserable too? Alas, an atheists work is never done………..

  16. I might point out that Greeks and Romans were pretty blood thirsty as well. In fact didnt the Romans crucify Jesus as well as many other Christians?

    And that was well after Aristotle wrote his ethics.

    Sam Harris would probably not have been able to write his books if not for Augustine, Aquinas, Peter Abelard, William of Ockham and others. In Fact it is probably not too much of a stretch to say that Puffendorf, Grotius and Locke would not have written their works and that there would be no United States in which to debate the evils of religion.

    There is a huge amount of difference between men like Ockham and Locke and Pat Robertson.

  17. Bron,

    We do have freedom from religion.

    And it is too much of a stretch to say
    “…that Puffendorf, Grotius and Locke would not have written their works and that there would be no United States in which to debate the evils of religion.”
    Religions don’t invent writing. People invent writing.

    Would there be continents, without religion? Some folks don’t think so.
    Would there be reasoning, without superstition? Probably better reasoning.

  18. Hah, The atheist sees the devil in those holidays. The voice Religions have heard is what they do. They taught the Muslims to be Muslims because the beliefs parallel that of western religions, and yet Muslims want to call the west the great Satan? They are not looking at themselves. God wants the heart figuratively circumcised. Hell is Gods glory to evil. West, and Muslims think the same way about both, and many more. Muslims kill if they think something is demonic.The west arrests, and sometimes kills in the legal system, and kills in the militarily. I beg to see a difference. Had religion taught the truths of Jesus from the begging what we know would not be what we know.

  19. rc,

    I was thinking much the same thing and that Pat forgets that some of us may be trying to steal secular holidays as well.

    I’ve had my eye on swiping Chinese New Year for some time now.

  20. Bron – The United States was discovered because the Spanish needed to find a way to the Spices of the East after making the Middle East impassible over a religious freakout. That sent Columbus West by boat.

    The US was populated by Europeans fleeing the horror in Europe as factions killed one another over religions believing in the exact same Hairy Thunderer.

    But the US was founded by a bunch of people who didn’t want to pay taxes to support the war they demanded to expand their territory. The founders were skeptical of religion and aware of the pitfalls.

    Religion’s role in what the US is would be checkered at best.

  21. Lets face it he’s a sad bitter OLE man who’s time has past and maybe he needs to move on to where ever he thinks his sky daddy is waiting for him.

  22. “Pat Robertson pushed this trend to a new low: telling his many viewers that atheists want to everyone to be miserable because they are miserable. They therefore what “to steal your holiday [Christmas] away from you.”

    Being Jewish I was spared the shopping, gifting and expense of Christmas, thus able to enjoy the lights, music and good cheer. Many of my Christian friends though found it to be a very stressful time of year and found themselves in debt due to the cost of their gifting obligations. Even as a child I never felt deprived because I didn’t have a tree laden with gifts and living in a ground floor apartment it was obvious early on that there was no such thing as Santa.

  23. Bron, atheists might be upset with this statement because it is a bloody lie.

    This is a delusion that Robertson wants to believe and wants his followers to believe. It is simply not true. He is a liar.

  24. Gene – good luck with Chinese New year, thats like a billion and a half people you are going against 8-{D.

    I started small, managed to take Arbor day away from the Druids! Yea me!

  25. Dear Pat Robertson….. I’ll never be truely miserable, as you hoped I’d be…. as long as I have you to laugh at. That gives me great joy

  26. Mike S – I’d make a joke about Chanukah gelt but its obvious. You are dead on in your observation. In what way does saying “Happy Holidays” suck joy out of Christmas? How does having the City not sponsor one religion over others (or none) detract from the celebration someone wants to have? Where is to injury?

    You want to see a joyless Christmas? Examine the folks who spend the season trying to outdo each other, who spend too much time and too much money and too much emotional energy seeking something they can’t really define or trinkets that are forgotten long before Easter. Wal-Mart, Target and ‘Madison Ave.’ have done more to suck the joy out of Christmas than all the demons Patty frets about could ever hope to remove.

    Also, add Patty’s stoking of anger and resentment as a drain on holiday joy. People who listen to him take time away from their putative celebrating to soak in hate, worry and frustration over a non-existent threat

  27. Often, when Pat’s on TV beeging the ‘SUCKERS’ for their money….. I’d like to send him a bag full of Horse Manure……… Now that would make me happy! But don’t anyone do it….. it’s against the law……….. even though he deserves it

  28. Simply stunning, Elaine.

    Just when I think I can’t imagine a better display of Pat’s madness, something I’ve missed pops up.

  29. “That’s why Regent University is so terrifically important… because you don’t want your child to be brainwashed by these radicals…” -Pat Roberson

    (Thanks for the “Nazi Moment” with Pat, Elaine M., as well as the other videos.)

    At ~2:00:

  30. To paraphrase Martin Niemöller:

    First the christians hated the jews
    but hate for the jews became unacceptable.

    Then the christians hated the blacks
    but hate for the blacks became unacceptable.

    Then the christians hated the gays
    but hate for the gays became unacceptable.

    Then the christians hated the atheists
    because they were the only ones left to hate.

    Then atheism became acceptable,
    and christians had no more reason to exist.

  31. Balderdash!!! I was raised Jewish, now atheist, and celebrate my own form of Christmas. Why? Because I like the lights, the celebratory feeling, and I think more of others at this time. I celebrate what I choose, and I let others do the same. Why can’t Robertson?

  32. Some quotes from Pat Robertson:

    ”Planned Parenthood is teaching kids to fornicate, teaching people to have adultery, every kind of bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism – everything that the Bible condemns.”

    “Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It’s no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history.”

    “(T)he feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”

    “I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that’s the way it is, period.”

  33. PatricParamedic:
    I too am still waiting on those pagans to come for me. From what I have heard, they have a lot more fun than Pat Robertson and his crowd.

  34. http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/14697-a-year-in-jail-for-not-believing-in-god

    In Kentucky, a homeland security law requires the state’s Homeland Security Officers to acknowledge the security provided by the Almighty God-or risk 12 months in prison.

    n Kentucky, a homeland security law requires the state’s citizens to acknowledge the security provided by the Almighty God-or risk 12 months in prison. The law and its sponsor, state representative Tom Riner, have been the subject of controversy since the law first surfaced in 2006, yet the Kentucky state Supreme Court has refused to review its constitutionality, despite clearly violating the First Amendment’s separation of church and state.

    “This is one of the most egregiously and breathtakingly unconstitutional actions by a state legislature that I’ve ever seen,” said Edwin Kagin, the legal director of American Atheists’, a national organization focused defending the civil rights of atheists. American Atheists’ launched a lawsuit against the law in 2008, which won at the Circuit Court level, but was then overturned by the state Court of Appeals.

    The law states, “The safety and security of the Commonwealth cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon Almighty God as set forth in the public speeches and proclamations of American Presidents, including Abraham Lincoln’s historic March 30, 1863, presidential proclamation urging Americans to pray and fast during one of the most dangerous hours in American history, and the text of President John F. Kennedy’s November 22, 1963, national security speech which concluded: “For as was written long ago: ‘Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.'”

    The law requires that plaques celebrating the power of the Almighty God be installed outside the state Homeland Security building-and carries a criminal penalty of up to 12 months in jail if one fails to comply. The plaque’s inscription begins with the assertion, “The safety and security of the Commonwealth cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon Almighty God.” Tom Riner, a Baptist minister and the long-time Democratic state representative, sponsored the law.

    “The church-state divide is not a line I see,” Riner told The New York Times shortly after the law was first challenged in court. “What I do see is an attempt to separate America from its history of perceiving itself as a nation under God.”

    A practicing Baptist minister, Riner is solely devoted to his faith-even when that directly conflicts with his job as state representative. He has often been at the center of unconstitutional and expensive controversies throughout his 26 years in office. In the last ten years, for example, the state has spent more than $160,000 in string of losing court cases against the American Civil Liberties Union over the state’s decision to display the Ten Commandments in public buildings, legislation that Riner sponsored.

    Although the Kentucky courts have yet to strike down the law, some judges have been explicit about its unconstitutionality.

    “Kentucky’s law is a legislative finding, avowed as factual, that the Commonwealth is not safe absent reliance on Almighty God. Further, (the law) places a duty upon the executive director to publicize the assertion while stressing to the public that dependence upon Almighty God is vital, or necessary, in assuring the safety of the commonwealth,” wrote Judge Ann O’Malley Shake in Court of Appeals’ dissenting opinion.

    This rational was in the minority, however, as the Court of Appeals reversed the lower courts’ decision that the law was unconstitutional.

    Last week, American Atheists submitted a petition to the U.S. Supreme Court to review the law.

    Riner, meanwhile, continues to abuse the state representative’s office, turning it into a pulpit for his God-fearing message.

    “The safety and security of the state cannot be achieved apart from recognizing our dependence upon God,” Riner recently told Fox News.

    “We believe dependence on God is essential. … What the founding fathers stated and what every president has stated, is their reliance and recognition of Almighty God, that’s what we’re doing,” he said.

  35. Liberty University is suing the Feds about Obamacare again. Should we support praying as a form of health care for college students? They do tend to be the healthiest demographic.

  36. As an atheist I would have been offended to be categorized with the pagans! Pagans are animists, they believe everything has a soul & his holy & refer to ‘The Goddess” Thats not the same – you guys are sucking the joy out of the Atheist Holiday!!

    But I am no longer an atheist, I have converted to the one true faith, Pastafarianism. The Flying Spaghetti Monster (all blessing be upon Him) touched me with His noodly appendage and saved me from a life of moral degradation. His commandment is “Should any person approaceth thee offering pamphlets in my name or insisting on relaying tidings of My greatness kicketh thou them inst their meatballs. Suffer a missionary not to reproduce.” So it is written so should it be rAmen!

  37. Pat Robertson took all the joy out of Christianity and Christmas years ago. According to him Christians can only prove they are right with god by hating a long list of people and categories of people and believing that health care for Americans is an attack on the Christian religion. I have a message for Pat: Christ called and he wants his religion back.

    He would also like money changers like Robertson out of his church entirely.

  38. One of our guest bloggers recently pointed out:

    The Puritans saw Christmas as a pagan holiday, co-opted by the Roman Catholic Church, from the birthday of the sun god Mithra, which occurred on the winter solstice on December 21. Apples were added to Christmas trees, later to become ornaments, to represent the Garden of Eden. Pagan wreaths of holly were said to represent of the crown of thorns worn by Jesus at his crucifixion.

    In 1645, Puritans in the English Parliament got Christmas eliminated as a national holiday. When Puritans came to Massachusetts, they continued their boycott of the Christmas holiday for decades. The boycott applied to non-Puritans as well. When a group of non-Puritan workers were found playing sports in celebration of Christmas, Gov. William Bradford took away their sporting implements and told them “there should be no gaming, or revelling in the streets.”

    (The Pilgrims’ War on Christmas, by Nal). I guess the Pilgrims were atheists according to RobberSon.

    Akinoids, they are everywhere anymore.

  39. Isn’t it strange that with all the large and beautiful churchyards in America, the Christians always want to put their nativity scenes in front of city halls, village halls, courthouses, and public schools? I wonder why.

    Must be the annual “War on The Separation of Church and State.”

  40. Pat Robertson…. I’m dleting this blog from the WordPress feed I get every day….. Nothing you have to say can have any meaning or importance to me. Go squat over a christmas tree………

  41. God created the heavens and earth in 6 days. On the 7th day he rested.

    God must still be resting, I have never heard anything about what he did on the 8th day. …… But when he does wake up and goes to work on the 8th, Pat Robberson may want to step aside,….VERY aside. :)

  42. David,

    It reminds me of the bumper sticker I saw the other day: “Jesus is coming. Look busy.” It was right next to one that said, “Can’t Sleep. The clowns will eat me.” so make of that what you will.

  43. Gene, clowns were a problem for me at times in my youth!
    Now Congress is,…… It just goes to show ya, ….the more things change, the more they stay the same. :)

    OS, I e-mailed your link to some local people that are competent and vocal in their abilities. These innerwebs are amazing.

  44. December 25th was not celebrated as the birth of Christ until 354 AD, when Pope Julius I choose this date because it coincided with Pagan rituals. The main purpose was to supplant the pagan holiday with a Christian holiday.

    If Pat Robertson wants to take some shots about stealing the holiday then Pat should put his xmas tree up in July and start complaining about Pope Julius I.

  45. we Incremental Infidels have been trying to ruin X-Day for the Church of the SubGenius for years.

    by adding and/or subtracting days from their calendar so they never know when X-Day really is.

    repeatedly referring to Ivan Stang as Arnold Stang

    one year I drew a big handlebar moustache(some say mustache) on “Bob”

    this year I’m going to put Jehovah 1’s “stark fist of removal” in warm water while he’s sleeping.

    None of this has made me any less miserable but I think I pissed off R Crumb so it’s all good

    come join the dark side, well it’s not really dark more dim than anything I guess

  46. ElaineM,

    “It is people like Robertson who are the miserable ones–always looking for problems and finding fault with other people who don’t view the world as they do. Not everyone is or wants to be a Christian–or a member of any organized religion.”

    Gnerally, I feel that people don’t come to church because they are satisfied. Unfortunately, there is no complaints counter, only a preacher who says that it is either your fault or the demons are after the church. GIVE MORE, is the eternal solution. And if you kill any of the demons, you’ll be forgiven—-by the church.

  47. Oh the good old days, the really old ones! When the king with assistance of men dressed as women declared that we would no longer celebrate Midwinter Blot, but Christ’s Mass. The Blot was better, there we got a small sliver of the “sacrificed King” as appetizer to the sausage we could eat with our mead. Here it is only some sour vinegar (they call it wine) and a badly baked bread, symbol of the new king in heaven.

    Then the merchant’s realizing one celebration drawing people was as good as another, continued to set up their stands and wares for sale. The greenery remained the same, the trampled mud the same, and the the need for a sweet fro grandpa and one for each of 13 kids remained.

    Next year the priests are promising to add witch baiting, whatever that is—-to ease the boredom of November. And sometime in the future, Pat Robertson will be born, who will lead us on the straight and narrow path, despite our drunkenness and excursions into the bushes.

    Hallelujah.

  48. Frankly bleated:
    “Yes, unless these God botherers are allowed to ram their beliefs into everyones lives they are being threatened.”

    Let’s contrast Christianity with atheism. One attempts to enjoy freedom of speech and freedom of religion while atheism twists and inverts and perverts laws and uses the courts and activist judges to “ram their beliefs into everyone’s lives”. Anyone who can read news articles on the internet and watch news on the TV can witness the examples of freedom of religion being stifled. Of course now we have the usual attack on Christmas, this time of the year.

    The religion of atheism is miserable. Apparently it cannot rest unless it is debating the existence of God. Wait, I thought atheism was the belief there is no God. Why can’t atheism be happy in its own belief? There is no enthusiasm in atheism. Well, there can’t be enthusiasm, since the word “enthusiasm” is rooted in meaning “in or with God”. The religious, dogmatic beliefs of atheism must require it to actively pursue people of faith, and force its warped view on everyone – with the help of the court system.

  49. 1) Atheism by definition is not a religion, but an absence of religion. It is a choice protected by the same clause of the 1st Amendment that also protects your choice of Christianity.

    2) Our government, and by extension the courts, is a secular institution by the the terms of the Constitution and this intent is evidenced by multiple writings of the Founders on the subject of separation of church and state, most notably James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. The Free Exercise Clause guarantees your personal choice on whether and what god you choose to believe in and the Establishment Clause prevents the government from forcing others beliefs upon you and others from having your beliefs forced upon them by force of law.

    3) The myth the Christmas is “under attack” is just that: a myth. No one is stopping anyone from celebrating Christmas if that is their choice. It’s simply a fact that not everybody celebrates Christmas nor are they required to by law. Why can’t Christianity be happy with their own beliefs?

    4) Enthusiasm is not required.

    5) By definition, atheism has no dogma as atheism rejects authority:

    dogma /ˈdɒgmə/, n.,
    a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true:

    That being said, there are fanatical atheists who thrive on attacking those who practice religion, but they are the lunatic fringe of atheism much like those Fundamentalist Christians (or Fundamentalist Muslims, or Fundamentalist Whatever) who attack those who don’t share their beliefs like say atheism, but no one choosing atheism is required to do anything – from wearing magic underwear, to kissing a ring, to believing the Bible is the literal word of God, to persecuting others who disagree with their religious choices to the point they do something really annoying . . . like proselytize.

    But there is no “War on Christmas” ™ (c) (FAUXNews, 2008).

    Celebrate it how you wish.

    Or don’t.

    Your choice.

  50. What Gene said!

    Hubert – I get what Patty’s game is, there are huge bucks to be made shearing the flock, but your angle escapes me. All I ask is that you do not use OUR government to push YOUR religion on me. I repay that by not having OUR government push MY religious beliefs on anyone. How that constitutes a suppression of your free speech is an exercise best left to magicians.

    Neither I nor any atheist I know has ever started a conversation with something like “Have you rejected god from your life?” Neither do we knock on doors demanding to discuss out lack of belief in a Great Cosmic Muffin. No standing on street corners screaming verses from “The God Delusion”. We do not demand money from non-beliveres to support a useless class of clerics nor appear on TV telling you how to think, vote, not-pray or . . . well just about any of the laundry list of sins foisted on us by the God botherers.

    I’d say I am much more content with my beliefs than the God botherers are. They appear to be so insecure that they insist I believe what they do. Thats where we come to contretemps. Celebrate the pagan rituals of Solstices (Since Jesus was not born on Dec 25) any way you choose. Just don’t ask OUR government to pay for or promote your Pagan rituals Saturnalia trees Yule logs etc

  51. Raff,

    It’s always been my contention…. After being burned….. Life’s experience that is…. Those that proclaim to be the most devote are the ones you need to watch out for…..

  52. all people are spiritual and will fill that space with something. A tree, a frog, an elephant, whatever is handy.

    Atheists arent any different. They just fill that space a different way.

  53. With considerable irony, I thnnk Hubert for showing so well one confused version of what we were railing against.

    There he lay it, odiferously reeking, in the middle of the holiday cheer or the calm of being right with your fellow mankind (a little bit anyway). I won’t give it a name, but you know what object that I am implying.

    It was a shock to see. To take it in through all the channels that MikeS reminded us that we are composed of, each according to how they are.

    Hubert is beyond cure, and perhaps also dangerous. Certainly emotionally to others. The list of potential examples are endless.

    A personal one. His followers of Jesus succeeded in enticing my pop to follow them and abandon his family, with a newborn and a ten year old.

    Now that was nice of them. Jesus needed the father’s proselytizing more than his family did his support. Thanks Hubert and JC.

  54. 707 – not to make light of your situation but JC did ask this of his followers
    Matthew
    19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

    Mark
    10:29-30 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

    Luke
    18:29-30 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

    John seems to have skipped this bit

  55. Frankly,

    Thanks. I love Bible quotations, sometimes to console myself or to taunt “Christians”.

    I don’t remember the “hundred fold” increase in our time. Guess he could not deliver on that.
    But lets blame it on the church. But then the principles of obeying nutty ideas is in the theology too.

    For example; you must come to church service on a Saturday.

  56. For example; you must come to church service on a Saturday.

    wgeb ALL jobs require working on a Saturday..

    Hope you aaw my earlier comment summarizing all religions.

    One of the Dogs said he liked it.

    So, finally I ask—What was your point? I did not get it.

    Duh!

  57. ahhhh patty boy! I do dearly hate to write, but when I do I charge nothing and let the creative thinkers choose their ways.

    hitler did the same as patty boy is doing now which is waiting for the day that they die to find out if GOD is real or not.

    people do not know what I have done nor if I contacted the president to read this site or not, so they do not know why I write what I do.

    one nation under GOD would include all nations and every atheists to zulu learning that.

    something had to make the rocks in the universe and even patty boy and the poopy pope do not understand…

    …since the end of times could mean that the mayan calender was written. then the end of times could mean that the mayan calender could tell you about the past. or it could mean that the calender merely starts over…, you will all make your own decisions no matter what I tell you.

    the battle between satan and GOD would be done before your very eyes. do your congress men listen to GOD or the antichrists.

    I also see a lot of very creative thinking. and trust this: nobody wants to know every thing. to have to think about the future I have think about why you don’t have to worry about things because you won’t be here…

    the trend seems to be if I write a book and charge you for it you will believe it. you should get a hold of the one that said that I need to use a comma on television a few years ago.
    why should I meet with the president if he will kneel before ME.
    draw your own conclusions, but the secret service will not search ME.

    since I left off at john seems to have skipped this bit. you have to know that being GOD is a full time job and I am a carpenter. and on the eighth day I went to work again…

  58. I always look at the question of atheism as a three-tined fork. Atheists: easiest and likely the best is that atheists do not believe in gods, no reference to religion other than that; the next tine is no belief in the supernatural, and I haven’t known an atheist yet that does though they may like the show (I do mythology can be fun); the last tine, dogma, any atheist can have dogma (a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds).

    As for the 700 Club, it’s like “Your Show of Shows” and the “Steve Allen Show”. Just totally oblivious to it’s precursors. I like Pat Robertson, he makes me laugh.

  59. Ariel,

    Good points except the last one bothers me.

    I like Lenny Bruce, but I would not like my kids to go in his church/synagogue/nightclub/cussing class. Nor do I think thah Lenny wanted to force me to obey his own commands.

    You get the idea, so don’t take it personal.
    I like Obama too, but dislike his stance on NDAA, executions w/o trial, etc.

    If I hung myself up unnecessartily just say so.

  60. Bron,

    I have dictionaries going back to the 1930s, after searching on-line then hitting the books, I can’t find a justification for your “all people are spiritual and will fill that space with something. A tree, a frog, an elephant, whatever is handy. Atheists arent (sic) any different. They just fill that space a different way.”

    Spiritual is too specific in meaning. If you expand it to “filled with awe”, sometimes called spiritual, I can go for agreement. Canyonlands, the Black Canyon of the Gunnison, Red-Rock Country, and the ultimate awe the Grand Canyon, all humble me. But it is a materialistic humbling, not a supernatural one.

    Now as for dogma, the ultimate filling of that space is Marxist-Leninism.

  61. idealist707,
    “I like Lenny Bruce, but I would not like my kids to go in his church/synagogue/nightclub/cussing class. Nor do I think thah Lenny wanted to force me to obey his own commands.” You did shake me up because I didn’t bring Lenny up, and by the jarring juxtaposition with “Your Show of Shows” and “The Steve Allen Show”. Cursing was never an issue, in fact Allen considered cursing as a comedic hook lacking in intelligence (if you look up Allen, this guy was the smartest and most well rounded of all comedians, while liking slapstick and silliness).

    Lenny, for all his cursing, gave us a quote that applied in 1770 America and all the way to today: “In the Halls of Justice, the only justice is in the halls”. If I could remember a good Mort Sahl quote I’d include it too.

    As for this: ‘”Nor do I think thah Lenny wanted to force me to obey his own commands. You get the idea, so don’t take it personal.” I don’t want to force you to obey my commands, I have neither taser nor nightstick and my arms can’t reach to Scandinavia so your safe. How ever forcefully I may express myself, I just want you to argue back. That’s fun. Be as forceful as you wish on something you believe your arguments support, or what your sense of right and wrong demands. Just don’t deprive me of the same rights in argument…So, unless you do, nothing personal here. Lenny was a good point.

    You can’t force someone unless by the barrel of a gun, even if you try to force by will. It’s a metaphor.

  62. oh for gods sake, more religious & spiritual people trying to paint athiests in the Marx-Lenin corner. Most of us just like the sciences. All of them.

    Just because religious people have to control others in totalitarian structures does not mean the 21st Century agnostic or atheist has that same goal.
    Reality based people tend to move on when something is proven to be a failure. As Einstein said, ‘repeating the same action expecting a different result is insanity’. Sure, there are insane people of every philosophy. but stop using such a broad brush.

  63. (Ariel,

    Let me try again. (I feel so stupid, please don’t agree!) :-)

    You said simply that you “´liked Pat R because he made you laugh.” (paraphrase?)

    I pulled Lenny out because I like Lenny too. In fact I have a nice lately collected stuff from Amazon.

    But even if I did like him, I would not give him carte blanche, which is what Pat R wants, and I felt you gave. My mistake there!

    An admittedly poor argument which I tried to take any sting out of, and should have pulled the plug on.

    My tendency to quibble is embarassing at times. Ach ach! mea culpa.
    =============

    All the rest of your answer: ” and by the jarring juxtaposition with “Your Show of Shows” and “The Steve Allen Show” etc., was totally not in play from my side. I don’t even recall him being mentioned by either of us. The only forcing I was referring to was Pat R’s desire to force the American citizenry to do his bidding. Nothing to do with you and I at all.
    ==============

    i posted a Wiki excerpt on the Shtetl and jewish analysis tradition and the possibilities to communicate paragraphs by just a nod or a glance between peers. (Doctors consulting over an ECG!)

    I did not make my point clearly then. Quoting the except was to point to the difficulties we have using just the blunt instruments of words here. My unfortunate attempt (obviously in terms of reaching you) to communicate reinforces at least my difficulty.

    Contrast this with the minimal way old regulars here exchange ideas—no names given.

    It is a complicated problem, including other personal factors. Congruency in reference points and POVs are important, but not always necessary either.

    Hope I have not added to the confusion.

    And thanks for the Lenny quote. Bingo!

  64. Idealist707,

    You did fine, I hope I did as well, and I thank you for the kindness while disagreeing.

    “Congruency in reference points and POVs are important, but not always necessary either.” Amen brother and hallelujah (religious phrases are like long German words, sometimes you just can’t say it any other way). Clarity without judgement, agree to disagree without prejudice.

    “Quoting the except was to point to the difficulties we have using just the blunt instruments of words here.” You know blunt instruments can cause trauma, saw that on CSI. Words are only blunt instruments when we we use them on others instead of using them with others. Sometimes others deserve blunt force trauma. I can be the “other’, others believe they are never that “other”. (That may have been hubris masked as self-deprecation but still I feel so belittled.)

    Glad you liked the Lenny quote.

  65. Malisha,

    “Um, doesn’t it sound like “They hate us because of our freedom”? Yeah, the guy was inarticulate but actually well read (just go to what some journalists wrote after time on Air Force One with he he is so inarticulate). They don’t hate us because of our freedom, they hate us because of what we think freedom is (whatever “is” means).

  66. Shano, please,

    Marxist-Leninism is the height of dogma, Catholicism and the Orthodox lose the race only by a nose and only in the 20th Century. Lenin even had a term for heretic, it was revisionist, and treated them like Torquemada. Stalin was much worse.

    “oh for gods sake, more religious & spiritual people trying to paint athiests in the Marx-Lenin corner. Most of us just like the sciences. All of them. ” My Bachelor degree was 120 hours of science from an applied perspective, but not all in Engineering, and I did take philosophy as well history. I never take science as anything other than best at this time, always tentative. Forty years ago the consensus of science was very few stars had planets and dinosaurs didn’t have feathers, well except for one lineage.

    With that, I like science too, but not like a pretty woman. The beauty of science is it always corrects, it always changes. It always gets better with age.

    “Now as for dogma, the ultimate filling of that space is Marxist-Leninism.” If you were drawing from this of mine: given the revisionist as heretic, the embalming and presentation of Lenin as saint, how isn’t M-L the ultimate filling in the 20th Century? I did leave off “20th Century” but thought that was understood.

    I do understand the knee-jerk reaction. I’ve had to listen to friends going on and on as to how M-L represented atheism. I’m an American atheist, M-L has nothing to do with me. But dogma is dogma, and Lenin did it so well.

  67. Bush was “well read”. That is the funniest statement I have read in quite a while. Wheeee!
    oh yea, Malisha, this sounds exactly like “they hate us fur our freedumbs”.
    great observation, lol.

  68. George W. Bush was well read? Chortle! Chortle! Snort!

    Too bad he didn’t read the most important short story of early 2001, “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.”

  69. Don’t forget that other thingy he should have read too, HenMan. You know, the one that mentions a prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment.

  70. Damn, I hate it when a comment drops into digital oblivion. From shano, through Henman, by way of Gene H., to Henmen. And shano, I do realize you had to find an out after M-L, as you never addressed my response.

    Journalist that traveled with GW expected an illiterate, and found otherwise. That’s what I’m going by, not the mythos that is tied to every President by political prejudice. GW matched or exceeded Gore and Kerry in GPA at University, but he was a dissolute frat-boy. Gore and Kerry were what?

    GW was inarticulate, painfully so, but the ignorant prejudice of articulation as intelligence is so easily shown wrong. Carter, mediocre in articulation, had about 3 standard deviations over Kennedy, but Kennedy was more articulate and sharper of wit than Carter, by far. But he was so far less intelligent…

    Nothing in my argument has to do with how many books Carter read or Kennedy read. Journalists found that GW did read a lot of books, thus well read, well beyond what they expected. That’s all I’m going by because I don’t believe the mythos of either party. Why would you?

    You confuse intelligence with articulateness.

  71. Ariel,

    Not to dirty you with my recommendation (consider the source), but you are an unusual bird and definitely in my taste.

    Take for example, your handling of the game of what I call “keep away”, or “pretend somebody farted”.

    “Damn, I hate it when a comment drops into digital oblivion. From shano, through Henman, by way of Gene H., to Henmen. And shano, I do realize you had to find an out after M-L, as you never addressed my response.”

    But instead of ignoring the slight, you pushed on to make your point. Unusual perseverance.
    ============

    And then they are those who would simplify, or arrange in a logical order which can never encompass realisty.
    You addressed it as follows:

    “Nothing in my argument has to do with how many books Carter read or Kennedy read. Journalists found that GW did read a lot of books, thus well read, well beyond what they expected. That’s all I’m going by because I don’t believe the mythos of either party. Why would you?”

    And finally those who make the same mistake that I do, and people in general do (even about themselves). :-)

    “You confuse intelligence with articulateness.”

    Both to my advantage and other’s disadvantage, for ex. workers or foreigners.

  72. When I read a line like “George W. Bush was well read” I am reminded of “A Fish Called Wanda”
    Otto: Apes don’t read philosophy.
    Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don’t understand it.

    How a guy could be so well read but still understand so little of the world around him is a mystery. I could understand the inarticulate part (coke damages the brain) but to be so ignorant of the world and so devoid of understanding indicates either he really didn’t read much or he got nothing out of all that effort.

  73. 707 – my reading of those verses is that the hundred fold would be the abandoner’s not the falmily’s and it would come in the next world not this one.

    Typing that just made me think of Wimpy “I will gladly pay you in in the next life for a hamburger today”

    Ariel
    Here is an atheist with not belief in any supernatural BS. There is a very large community of us online. You could start with JREF if you are looking to join

  74. Frankly,
    Re Bush. Not takiing a stance, I know him so poorly. However your approach is interesting to the one that is said to be facing Obama with Rice. They have boxed him into a corner, it is said. And I shall not be boxed.
    And have too little experience with others to say how Bush could accomodate this dichotomy.

    Bible rewards: Yes to the abandoners, certainly. But one author says clearly in this lifetime, not in the hereafter.

    ======
    Ariel
    Here is an atheist with not belief in any supernatural BS. There is a very large community of us online. You could start with JREF if you are looking to join”
    ——-
    What is JREF, Google?
    What is supernatural. Do you mean against accepted scientific laws. Laws are meant to be amended and broken by new research. Someone said so here recently, perhaps you or Ariel.

    Deists say they believe in a separate intelligence which has “somthing” to do with our being here (our being even the universe). MikeS correct that?

    I call myself an atheist or rather agnostic, since what one can not perceive can not be proven to not exist.

    God can not be falsified.

  75. Ariel,

    You mistake that simply because you said something means it’s automatically worthy of serious address. Just because Marxists are dogmatic and many Marxists are atheists does not mean all atheists are dogmatic – that’s a double false equivalence (between Marxism and atheism and by conflating political dogma with religious dogma) and the fallacy of composition. Atheists regardless of their political views have already shown a predisposition to bucking authority and accepting authority is at the core of the definition of dogma: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true as defined by the OED. As thinkers in general, they are less likely to be dogmatic than a religious thinker as evidenced by that predisposition to disregard religious authorities. Just like PC, you apparently don’t understand what “dogma” entails either.

    Bad logic is bad logic.

  76. Ariel-

    Regarding George W. Bush: A father with an unlimited supply of money can make a G.P.A. rise as easily as he can make Air National Guard records disappear.

  77. Ariel,

    In case you did not know, GeneH. needs no logical excuse for attacking. He does it to all who talk to me.
    I won’t wait for his reply. Worthless.

    Or did you once upon a time tell him that he is full of BS? :-)

  78. I just have a couple questions? What is the reason for the “holiday” we all celebrate in December? What is the Federal holiday on December 25th called? Of course, CHRISTMAS. This is a time Christians to celebrate the birth of the Savior of the world. So you see, even the Federal Government recognizes the Birth of Jesus, like all the founders of this country did

    Luke 2:10-16

    10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.”

    13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:

    14 “Glory to God in the highest,
    And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!”[a]

    15 So it was, when the angels had gone away from them into heaven, that the shepherds said to one another, “Let us now go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has come to pass, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 And they came with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the Babe lying in a manger.

  79. So why do you all moan and cry and complain every single year?

    No one cares how you want to celebrate the mid winter holiday season. People celebrate in all sorts of ways and it does not bother me. I find it fascinating. Interesting. Not some sort of threat.

  80. Those who have read the Russ Baker “Bush: Family of Secrets” will have had a great time seeing what HW does.
    Amazing man. You wonder how he kept it all straight:
    contacts, agreements, contracts, murders ordered/done, Laundering cocaain money, etc. Not to mention the JFK job
    and the failed attempt on Reagan. And a war hero besides and CIA chief.

  81. Gene H.,
    Quoting me :”any atheist can have dogma (a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds).”

    “Marxist-Leninism is the height of dogma, Catholicism and the Orthodox lose the race only by a nose and only in the 20th Century. Lenin even had a term for heretic, it was revisionist, and treated them like Torquemada.

    Quoting you: “Just because Marxists are dogmatic and many Marxists are atheists does not mean all atheists are dogmatic – that’s a double false equivalence (between Marxism and atheism and by conflating political dogma with religious dogma) and the fallacy of composition.”

    Glad you can do a simple false syllogism. It is in fact quite silly and easily knocked down. Must be why you used it. Clean up on aisle #2, yep its #2, need some straw swept up.

    Unfortunately for all you wrote, nothing I wrote implied that syllogism whatsoever. We at the least agree that bad logic is bad logic.

    As for dictionaries, you like yours, I like mine. I pull from Merriam-Webster, I do like the OED for etymology. I think authoritative implies authority. YMMV.

  82. HenMan,
    “Regarding George W. Bush: A father with an unlimited supply of money can make a G.P.A. rise as easily as he can make Air National Guard records disappear.” As can a politically powerful Senator.

    Neither, though, can help in being a pilot of one of the most difficult to fly jets of the Vietnam era.

  83. Gene H.,

    “What you have said does not prove you were not making the logical errors attributed.” Except the logical errors you claimed I made were tied to the false syllogism you made up from whole cloth. Neither quote of mine implies that silly syllogism of yours. Clean up on aisle #2 still needed.

    But do keep carrying on and on and on…

  84. No. They were tied to your implied premise by analogy that atheists are dogmatic as a class like Marxists. The only thing that needs cleaning is your logic.

  85. Gene H.,
    No, I wrote “any atheist can have dogma” and then further on brought up Marxist-Leninism as an example. Unless you want to maintain and argue that “any atheist can’t have dogma”, the statement holds. The implied is any one atheist, not atheists as a class.

    “…implied premise by analogy that atheists are dogmatic as a class like Marxists.” No, I used Marxist-Leninists as an example of atheists who can be dogmatic. That horse you’re beating to death started at the front of the cart until you moved it behind and bludgeoned it.

  86. I’ll just ignore that two atheists took exception to your characterization as atheists as dogmatic then.

    If that makes you feel better about your bad logic.

  87. Ariel-

    Actually, George W. Bush flew a pre-Vietnam era jet. The problem was that he didn’t fly it long enough. If I had walked away from the Army without permission like GWB walked away from the Air National Guard, I would have spent several years in Leavenworth. And FYI, George Bush was, is, and always will be a blithering idiot.

  88. Amazing…. I’ve yet to see anyone get upset because people are slamming pat Robertson….. Amazing….. I’m sure someone will soon…. After all…. He thinks he is chosen to speak ……at least for a few…..

  89. Gene H.,
    “I’ll just ignore that two atheists took exception to your characterization as atheists as dogmatic then.”

    Two can read as badly as one. You need more for your appeal to numbers.

  90. HenMan,

    Yeah it was pre-Vietnam in origins, but used in Vietnam.

    Gene H.,

    You’re absolutely right, no two people ever make the same mistake in comprehension. I think that horse is just a stain on the road now so you can stop beating it. We both prove “any atheist can be obstinate”, but I don’t think that phrase means “all atheists”.

    It’s that dogma word that blinds with emotion. Just like “atheists have beliefs” can set some atheists into spittle spray fury.

  91. I see no one in a “spittle spray fury” except perhaps you, Ariel.

    And three people seeing the same flaw in your logic is hardly coincidence. Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern.

    Really, it’s pretty obvious you don’t divorce your arguments from yourself, but bad logic is something you can overcome if you work at it. Or maybe not. But just because you use bad logic doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. Just illogical.

  92. Is Richard Dawson starting some new dogmatic system I be required to join? Anyone know?

    Because this is the modern day ‘Christian’ we are talking about. The con men Charismatics, the Evangelicals, the Apocalyptic Cults who force our politicians to support war crimes.
    The militant Christians who supported the war in Iraq and the cheerleaders of Bush. Who made a war for oil a ‘crusade’. Who support the settlements and the Zionists.

    Yea, they are all dangerous religious freaks. All of them.

  93. It’s ok, Gene, you can maintain without actually ever addressing the argument that “any atheist can have dogma” does not translate to your silly syllogism, continue straw man arguments, then go on about your logic. While pointing to “see I’m right, they agree with me too”, another logical fallacy. A pattern of misunderstanding, often set off by an emotional response or a shared misconception, or on blog comments too much skimming, too little reading for understanding. That’s why there is a fallacy of arguing by numbers. Your pattern argument is misapplied, but a nice twist to avoid admitting a fallacy.

    The only time I got angry in any of this, across many posts, was the cheap “I feel sorry for your kids”, which is cheap intellectually, rationally, and emotionally. Sorry you stooped to it. I of course stooped to something similar with how your children have likely been browbeaten down. Whether you have children or not.

    BTW, in this environment you can’t see “spittle spray fury”, though if you called it that it must be.

    At 4:25 I wrote: “No, I wrote “any atheist can have dogma” and then further on brought up Marxist-Leninism as an example. Unless you want to maintain and argue that “any atheist can’t have dogma”, the statement holds. The implied is any one atheist, not atheists as a class.”

    “…implied premise by analogy that atheists are dogmatic as a class like Marxists.” No, I used Marxist-Leninists as an example of atheists who can be dogmatic. That horse you’re beating to death started at the front of the cart until you moved it behind and bludgeoned it.” Interjection: the analogy was wholly your own. “Any” isn’t “all”, nor “some” “all”. You’re too busy trying to win the argument that you don’t read the others argument, but you do make things up to help you win.

    Your reply at 4:31: “I’ll just ignore that two atheists took exception to your characterization as atheists as dogmatic then. If that makes you feel better about your bad logic.”

    Your reply, no addressing what I wrote, but an immediate movement into the fallacy of argument by numbers, and finishing with the mantra of “your bad logic”. Wash, rinse, repeat. Whatever load, wash, rinse, repeat.

    There is a pattern here, Gene, but you won’t see it. Anyway, this horse is just a stain now, for either side.

  94. “BTW, in this environment you can’t see “spittle spray fury”, though if you called it that it must be.”

    Those were your words, not mine.

    The rest of what you say is self-rationalizing gibberish trying to dig your way out of the logical hole you put yourself in.

    Good show.

    Carry on.

  95. Hi, Gene,

    ““BTW, in this environment you can’t see “spittle spray fury”, though if you called it that it must be.”

    Those were your words, not mine.” It was the application, I never wrote that in this environment I saw “ssf” over beliefs. You inferred that it could be?

    “The rest of what you say is self-rationalizing gibberish trying to dig your way out of the logical hole you put yourself in.” All sound and fury signifying nothing. There’s no rebuttal there, just your claims based on really bad logic from a lack of comprehension, and certainly egotism. You have to comprehend before you can argue.

    I clearly notice that you haven’t addressed in any rational way my rebuttals. You just make more declarative statements based on your first argument. You haven’t addressed any of my rebuttals. You couldn’t even address the simple “any atheist can’t have dogma”, or the simplest yet of “any”, “all”, “some”. The latter your source of mass confusion leading to you silly syllogism, which I agree with because it’s easily seen as silly. Seen it since Semantics in 8th grade. I didn’t make it but you did. I am, however, depressed by those that use “implied” or “inferred” to create a straw man. It’s a tinge dishonest.

    It’s not rational, but it is sophistry driven by egotism. Doesn’t make you a bad person…

    I have to wonder if in those wee, small hours of a quiet night you ever think your logic fallible; your comprehension of anothers argument poor; or that you may be wrong, not on the trivial so easy to admit, but the substantial where you have admit you you were truly wrong, abjectly so.

    Nah, we both know that’s never happened. On face value.

  96. shano,

    “oh for gods sake, more religious & spiritual people trying to paint athiests in the Marx-Lenin corner…. ”

    That’s a knee-jerk response, if you are drawing from my words. That Marxist-Leninists were atheists doesn’t mean all atheists are Marxist-Leninist. It was just an example of how (some) atheists can have dogma, and obviously not religious dogma but still dogma. Doesn’t mean “all” atheists have dogma, or “all” atheists are dogmatic, but nothing more than an example of how some atheists have dogma. “Any atheist” does not mean all or some, just any.

    Your inference is your own and only applies to you.

  97. shano,

    “Just because religious people have to control others in totalitarian structures does not mean the 21st Century agnostic or atheist has that same goal.
    Reality based people tend to move on when something is proven to be a failure. As Einstein said, ‘repeating the same action expecting a different result is insanity’. Sure, there are insane people of every philosophy. but stop using such a broad brush.”

    Ignoring the 21st Century reference, again you, as well Gene H. confuse any with all and some with all. It’s very apparent in the 20th Century (I noticed your move to the 21st to avoid the 20th) that some atheists did move to totalitarian structures, did justify them dogmatically, and killed a lot of people by that justification. Read Marxist-Leninist tracts from the time, understand the term “revisionist” as Lenin used it, and look at all the deaths.
    Any is not all, some is not all, but neither any nor some mean none.

    “Reality based people tend to move on when something is proven to be a failure.” In 35, Einstein, with others, argued that Quantum Mechanics led to logical contradictions. Quantum Mechanics goes back to well before Einstein, and in fact he’s considered one of the contributors to Quantum Mechanics in it’s first phase. In 1925 QM was seen as explaining what Maxwell couldn’t and by 27 was accepted theory. So Einstein was still behind the curve 8 years later. He was deterministic and had a real hard time with the probabilistic nature of QM. He never fully accepted QM. Its good you hedged with “tend”.

    The problem with the term “reality based people” is there is nothing in any of the behavioral sciences to support the way you mean it, and that’s an inference of mine that you can easily destroy by further argument. I’m not like Gene H., my inferences are what I see with full realization I may see wrongly. Though I will stick firmly to this: No one person is “reality based” in all ways at all times, and has intellectual and emotional impediments to knowing when they actually are not; the phrase is hubris, nothing more.

    “tend to move on when something is proven to be a failure” is a phrase so fraught with intellectual peril. “proven to be a failure”, how much in physics has actual been proven to be a failure, not applicable in any circumstance? Certainly not Newton, yet he missed entirely “time/space”. When does science actually “prove” anything, if “prove” means “certainty”? If science “proves”, shouldn’t we stop now? Why search further except those areas not yet “proven”?

    In the social sciences, the political, or behavioral, anything “proven” yet? Anything “proven” in philosophy yet? Facts can be proved, but facts aren’t anything I’ve mentioned until now.

  98. Forgot Economics, only remembered it because Viner’s quote came to mind: “Economics is what economists do”. Combine that with S.I. Hayakawa’s “the word is not the thing”, and tentativeness should be the rule. “Proof” and “certainty” are for the religious and various political totalitarian movements. And Hoffer’s “True Believers”.

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