Florida Professor Triggers Firestorm By Suggesting That Sandy Hook Massacre Might Not Have Occurred Or Was A Staged Drill

tracyFlorida Atlantic University has found itself embroiled in a national outcry over the views of James Tracy, an associate professor of media history. Tracy, 47, went to his blog, Memoryholeblog and held forth on his suspicion that the massacre in Connecticut might have been a government drill or may not even have actually occurred. In a blog entitled “The Sandy Hook Massacre: Unanswered Questions and Missing Information,” Tracy wrote “While it sounds like an outrageous claim, one is left to inquire whether the Sandy Hook shooting ever took place — at least in the way law enforcement authorities and the nation’s news media have described.” For those mourning the loss of the 20 children and six adults, it was both an outrageous and hurtful claim — leading many to call for the firing of Tracy. However, as correctly noted by the FAU administration, this was a personal blog and Tracy has every right to espouse such theories.


Tracy wrote that “Inconsistencies and anomalies abound when one turns an analytical eye to news of the Newtown school massacre.”

Tracy appears a full-time conspiracy theorist who has questioned the official account of the Kennedy assassination, the 9/11 terror attacks and the Aurora, Colo., movie theater massacre.

Connecticut School ShootingLisa Metcalf, FAU’s director of media relations, insisted that “James Tracy does not speak for the university. The website on which his post appeared is not affiliated with FAU in any way. As for any previous disciplinary actions at FAU, we do not comment on personnel matters.” Of course, there are those tiny caskets and grieving families to address. Tracy acknowledged, which asked by a local reporter, that “one is left with the impression that a real tragedy took place,” but “[w]as this to a certain degree constructed? Was this a drill?”

Tracey received his Ph.D for the University of Iowa and has a specialization in Media history and analysis, political economy of communication. He teaches courses on alternative news media and socio-political issues and events.

His past publications include:
Tracy, J. F. “A Historical Case Study of Alternative News Media and Labor Activism: The Dubuque Leader 1935-1939,” Journalism & Communication Monographs 8.4 (2007): 269-343.



Book Chapters

Tracy, J. F. “Censored News Cluster Overview Essay Analysis: Human Costs of War and Violence”, Censored 2013: Sourcebook for the Media Revolution. The Top Censored Stories and Media Analysis of 2011-2012, Mickey Huff and Project Censored, editors. New York: Seven Stories Press (forthcoming October 2012).



Tracy, J.F. “Our Union is Not For Sale: The Postwar Struggle for Workplace Control in the American Newspaper Industry,” in A Moment of Danger: Critical Studies in the History of U.S. Communication Since World War II, Inger Stole and Janice Peck, editors. Milwaukee WI: Marquette University Press, 2011, 57-81.

Tracy, J. F. “Covering Workers: News Media, Labor, and the 2008 Economic Crisis,” in The Propaganda Society: Promotional Culture and Politics in Global Context, Gerald Sussman, editor. New York: Peter Lang, 2011, 267-282.

Articles

Tracy J. F. “Covering ‘Financial Terrorism’: The Greek Debt Crisis in U.S. News Media,” Journalism Practice (Summer 2012, forthcoming).

Tracy, J. F. and M. L. Hayashi. “Librarians of the World Unite? Possibilities and Realities from Florida, USA,” Special Issue Getting the Message: Communication Workers and Global Value Chains, edited by Vincent Mosco and Catherine McKercher, Work, Organisation, Labour and Globalisation 4.2 (2010): 96-110.

Academic freedom does protect faculty in advancing such theories and this falls within Tracy’s academic work. However, it is really not an academic freedom issue as much as a first amendment issue. He has a right to maintain a private blog and to speak his mind on public controversies, even to the dismay and displeasure of the public.

What do you think?

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/08/florida-professor-questions-newtown-shooting-massacre-calls-for-more/#ixzz2HR42KFXL

290 thoughts on “Florida Professor Triggers Firestorm By Suggesting That Sandy Hook Massacre Might Not Have Occurred Or Was A Staged Drill

  1. I figure it’s a James Tracy drill.

    He’s got all that training and every such event allows him to pick apart the reports and concoct alternative theories.

    It seems to be what he does, and he’s done it again.

    Meanwhile, my petition is still struggling to try and meet its deadline goal:

    http://wh.gov/QQOh

  2. Believing in a few conspiracies myself I’ve found that one must pay close attention to the time spent in contemplating them. If too much time is spent paranoia takes over and the world becomes weird and scary. Tracy needs to put energy into other interests before his life becomes a nightmare, or perhaps it’s too late.

  3. Now not believing the police and media is disgusting?

    One thing someone told my long ago ,
    The truth doesn’t need protection. It is an immutable brick that does not change regardless of what people say.

    What is disgusting about critical thinking?

    Can an academic paper simply cite a news report or police press conference as proof?

  4. I agree with indio007. One can not explain the inconsistancies of the Sandy Hook official story. Why is it critical thinkers are termed “conspiracy theroists.?”

  5. maybe he should travel to Newtown and do some on the ground research – say maybe talk to people who were there? I bet there are plenty of people, not just the families of the dead, but also survivors, who would have serious disagreement with his “thinking”.

    Yes, I agree that critical thinking is important, but so is compassion. It is not “not believing the police and media” that is disgusting, it is dismissing the testimony of victims’ families and loved ones simply because he doesn’t trust the “media” or thinks the accounts don’t match up. It comes off as heartless ….I know if I were a parent of a child who died there I would be outraged…..

    And, no, he has the freedom of speech to talk this way, but the University and fellow professors also have that right and they should be vocal in pushing back verbally against this …tepid response of “well, he’s not talking for us” is lame.:(

  6. He has the rights. Unless his words bring evidence of incompetence, professionally or mentally, then what he writes privately is none of our business. Protest is ours to use. Use it.
    But don’t expect to put a muzzle on free thinkers. JFK, 9/11, etc. He is only a free thinker, not by those suspicions qualifying as a nut.

    I won’t get into Sandy Hook, as am not informed. and there are limits for engagiing in all possible conspiracy theories, although it is his specialty on media betrayal. 9/11 and JFK provide excellent examples. Prepared beforehand cover stories with immediate info on suspected villains were aired almost in real time. Peculiar. Your decision, Just so you know the more we dig the more we find.

    So it is a choice between paranoia or accepting that your government is no longer yours nor most other organs associated with it, or simply as most do, saying no reason to watch the news. It all comes from Orwell’s Truth Ministry anyway. So who ARE we fighting this week?

    Besides, he just needs attention hoping for a promotion to full professor.
    Rots of ruck charlie. Is your big book in the presses now?

    Who knows, he might have something. Didja ever consider that.
    Join the “don’t trust even my boss much less anybody else–gang.

  7. Sandy Hook does bear resemblance to JFK, MLK and RFK killings.
    Reed the “Cold Six Thousand” or don’t.

    The point is that “they” find a manipulable putative killer, who can be guided to the scene, or established to have been there. Find one who is fits the profile to do something which makes him a convincing perp, put him on the scene, and let the work be done by the pros on scene as backup.

    If Sirhan Sirhan fails to kill RFK, then there is pro backup. Just as there was, two kinds, in Memphis, and all Oswald, snowed by the true ops, had to do was report to work, having put his prints on rifle, shells, etc. and then cutout to what they had told him was his pickup point for transport to hiding.
    Fleeing in itself made it easy to point him out as guilty.

    So in Sandy Hook the fallguy was perfect. The whole situation perfect. Mom and he gun enthiusiasts. So who was the replacement teacher who popped up that week.
    He confirmed the situation report and it was launched.
    Who says it was the nut who did the shooting, Yeah he got to vent his anger, but most could have been done by the pro. Reason, sufficient dead and no living survivors with useable testimony. He was there to also insure that the perp committed suicide, leaving no one to provide testimony but the survivors. And none did, I believe who actually was on the shooting scene.

    Fantastic! Agreed. But it is routine since Lincoln was shot as a result of a conspiracy. And we do have guys who will do it as a job. No sweat.

  8. The thing about freedom of speech is that it most particularly applies to unpopular speech.

    When people say things we find outrageous, the proper channel for our outrage is not to silence those people. It is to process what they’ve revealed to us–about a situation or, more often, about themselves–and respond accordingly.

    For example, Todd Akin had every right to say the things he did about pregnancy and rape. Just as the rest of us have the right to decide that he’s an ignorant douchebag whom we don’t want representing us in public office.

    Certainly Mr Tracy’s suggestions would be painful to those grieving parents. But imagine for a moment the enormity of the fraud should they turn out (by some minuscule chance) to be true. It strikes me that a high degree of cynicism in a professor of media studies is a natural and even laudable thing. The often indistinguishable news and information industries need to be questioned relentlessly and at every turn, even when the questions seem ridiculous or outrageous.

  9. “Tracey received his Ph.D for the University of Iowa and has a specialization in Media history and analysis, political economy of communication. He teaches courses on alternative news media and socio-political issues and events”

    ***************************

    It seems an academic appointment is no guarantee of sanity — and things must really be strange in Iowa.

  10. It never ceases to amaze me when the only “valid conspiracy theories” are considered to be those of the department of just us, as they openly conspire against conspiracy theorists to take their rights:

    Can you believe that Cass R. Sunstein, an official in the Obama Administration, wants to infiltrate groups of U.S. citizens and spy on them if they hold theories or opinions different than his?

    In his paper Conspiracy Theories, linked to above, he writes:

    What can government do about conspiracy theories? Among the things it can do, what should it do? We can readily imagine a series of possible responses. (1) Government might ban conspiracy theorizing. (2) Government might impose some kind of tax, financial or otherwise, on those who disseminate such theories. (3) Government might itself engage in counterspeech, marshaling arguments to discredit conspiracy theories. (4) Government might formally hire credible private parties to engage in counterspeech. (5) Government might engage in informal communication with such parties, encouraging them to help. Each instrument has a distinctive set of potential effects, or costs and benefits, and each will have a place under imaginable conditions. However, our main policy idea is that government should engage in cognitive infiltration of the groups that produce conspiracy theories, which involves a mix of (3), (4) and (5).

    (ibid, page 14). Hey Cass, remember that scientists criticize other scientists and say radical things even to the point of saying that their peers have fantasies in place of actual science in some cases, Cass.

    (The Empire Strikes Back). These constitutional lawyers in the federal government who conspire against those citizens who harbor conspiracy theories are hypocrites it would seem.

  11. Somebody needed a media attention fix. A cruel way to get it but even mean spirited people have a right to speak. I believe Dick Cheney and Karl Rove are often seen spouting their lies on TV.

  12. I would think that the best way to look at any case like this is they way a criminal defense lawyer would look at it.

    The defense does not have the burden of proving the case beyond a reasonable doubt, the government has that burden at all times.

    Since the alleged perp is dead, and any alleged co-shooters are no longer in custody, how will the estates of the Lanza family, mother and son both, be able to defend in civil suits?

    I mean can’t they present a defense to claims based on a theory of multiple shooters or even that there is not sufficient evidence to show the kid did it?

    The pitchfork mentality is no way to run a good judicial, trial system.

  13. This is not ‘critical thinking’ He is making wild-ass statements without enough information. THATS what makes it a conspiracy theory and not academic thinking.

    He takes incomplete and incompetent reporting from the general mass media, blends it with bits of things said by officials involved and finds contradictions and inconsistencies – BIG F’ING SURPRISE!!!!!!

    He has made no effort to review actual investigation notes (nor should he until the legal process makes them available) nor to investigate the source of much of the information he presents.

    He has every right to run around flapping his arms screaming about the sky falling but it does not speak highly of his ability as a researcher or a professor.

  14. Frankly 1, January 9, 2013 at 8:59 am

    This is not ‘critical thinking’ He is making wild-ass statements without enough information. THATS what makes it a conspiracy theory and not academic thinking.
    ======================================================
    “Wild ass statements = conspiracy theory”

    Not at all.

    A conspiracy theory is one where there are allegations that two or more people got together and agreed to perform a particular task together:

    Can you imagine a U.S. Department of Justice attorney general going into a courtroom saying the defendant is charged with a “conspiracy theory”, causing the court to snicker or giggle like an MSM journalist does when that term is mentioned?

    Do you think that ever happens in court? No, because conspiracy theories are as serious as a heart attack to any professional DOJ attorney:

    The concept of criminal conspiracy has its earliest roots in fourteenth century English common law. At that time, it saw limited use as a legal theory. It became more broadly applied in the United States in the nineteenth century, though still the scope of prosecutions was not wide. Today, however, conspiracy is a far-reaching legal principle, embracing antitrust actions, an enormous number of more traditional criminal cases, and even tort lawsuits. It is the basis of prosecutions dealing with, among other crimes, drug violations, securities fraud, murder for hire, bank robbery, and extortion.

    … Conspiracy is an agreement by two or more people to commit a crime.

    (Conspiracy Theory, Law). Congress passed a statute long ago that is used frequently in the federal courts:

    If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

    If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object of the conspiracy, is a misdemeanor only, the punishment for such conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum punishment provided for such misdemeanor.

    (18 U.S.C. § 371, emphasis added). Conspiracy theories are a joke only to the jokers in the MSM propaganda organs.

    Conspiracy theories are what an attorney general comes up with when s/he wants to put someone in prison because that person conspired with others to commit a crime.

    It is not fantasy, it is real, and it happens each and every day.

    The MSM la la land is where the fantasy comes from.

    (Dept. of Justice Conspiracy Theories). It is obvious that the MSM has corrupted minds by brainwashing them into a false belief about what conspiracy theory really is.

    Any conspiracy theory of the case, whether by government, defense lawyer, or academic should stand or fall on its merits, not on media fantasy.

  15. Reading 1+1 =2 is simple in the logic of math.
    In the press it is never so simple. Facts can be withheld, 1+1= 1.9
    Facts can be spun and inflated 1+1= 2.1
    When we get into political reporting the integers of 3,4,5…. 1,0, -1, often equate the addition or subtraction of fact.
    There is a duty to question reporting and fact in the press. Kudos to those that explore, research, unearth facts or untruths, reported in the press.

    This guy is simply airing his brain furts. He is being amused by the reaction to people smelling his foul release of foul delusion, ….. and at the same time becoming a pubic name.

    I did initially feel revulsion in response to reading his obscene suggestion.
    He has a right to blather. It is my responsibility to reject it. Which in this case I most certainly do.

  16. Our mainline news media are always so believable? So this is just outrageous?

    Here is my first real “news” awakening, NBC (I believe it was Dateline) putting a fuse in a pickup truck to ignite the fuel in a crash to prove the pickup truck will ignite in a crash. It goes downhill from there.

    The other day our news media ran a 1 inch column space on a drone strike that killed “suspected” terrorists. That’s it 1 inch, on page 4 or 5 if I remember correctly. Todays front page headline is about how teachers are worried. No followup to the “suspected” terrorists or others that might have been killed. Who suspected them? Were they really terrorists? Were they a direct and imminent threat to the United States that we had to kill them with a missile? We will never know because our news media won’t take the time to ask questions.

    How many months ago did Benghazi happen? What do we know? Who is being held accountable for what happened? Old news better forgotten. It might ruin the sterling record of our messiah in chief mister O.

    When the Sandy Hook incident happened we had non stop 24 hour coverage of the event (including interviews of 3rd graders who were there) for 5 days. Meanwhile our national debt climbed well above $16 trillion, our “leaders” passed a spending bill that increased taxes and increased spending above the increase from the taxes, patted themselves on the back about how they avoided the dreaded “fiscal cliff” and saved mankind. Our news media (for the most part) ran with the party line that the world has been saved once again, though they will have to save it by the end of February, end of March, later in the summer… later… and later once again.

    Our news media has failed us and the result is some people get caught up in conspiracy theories. Do we really wonder why this happens?

  17. Every day, including today, there are stories of conspiracy theories being prosecuted in the courts:

    A woman accused of plotting the attempted drive-by murder of her estranged husband had an “unnatural” romantic relationship with her adopted son, police said.

    Police say that Bessey, also known as Amy Pearson, orchestrated the family-run murder plot. She’s accused of enlisting the couple’s adopted son, Michael Bessey, 21, and her brother, Richard Pearson, 39, to carry out the attack on her soon-to-be divorced husband.

    (Huffington Post). What makes something a conspiracy is not the unbelievability of the alleged facts, no, what makes something a conspiracy theory is if more than one person works to bring about the event.

    In this case “Mom has unnatural sex with son” does not make it a conspiracy theory case even though there are wild ass facts involved.

    But “and plotted with family members to kill her ex husband” does make it a conspiracy theory case.

    Fifth graders know that.

  18. Good points, Dredd.

    “He has a right to maintain a private blog and to speak his mind on public controversies, even to the dismay and displeasure of the public.” -Jonathan Turley

    Yep. That anyone would get all worked up about this is “crazy.”

    One thing that I’ve learned over the years is that even some of the brightest people have their blind spots.

    ———-

    “…and things must really be strange in Iowa.” -mespo727272

    Do tell.

  19. As a U of Iowa grad, I can assure everyone that Dr. Tracey is not representative of the typical product of our fine university, but he’s also not the only person with a warped sense of reality to have passed through Iowa City. And as someone who has spent much of my life working for a variety of government entities, I am struck by the degree to which some people grossly overestimate the ability of government agencies to plan, implement, and completely conceal elaborate and sophisticated plots and conspiracies. Sure, it has been known to happen from time to time, but many dark conspiracy theories seem to be based on the theorist’s double standard toward evidence. Information from official or mainstream sources is held to the strictest standars of proof beyond a reasonable doubt–anything that is even a little inconsistent is taken as proof of a lie, while any alternate theory, no matter how convoluted, that could possibly explain the same facts is taken as proof that the official or mainstream account must be false. Yet the alternate theory is rarely held to anything resembling the same standard of proof, or even ANY standard of proof. In fact, in some cases, the very lack of any evidence of a conspiracy actually strengthens the theorist’s belief in the conspiracy, because it proves just how effective the conpiracy has been at supressing the truth.

    Everyone knows, or should knows that if you take three eye-witness accounts of the same shocking event, you will probably get three somewhat different stories with some inconsistencies and perhaps even downright contradictions. Layer on top of that the annoying practice of the news media caring more about being first than about being right, and the fact that those initial media reports can create lasting misimpressions even after most of the truth has been sorted out, and it is inevitible that the history of such events will be a little messy and murky. But that doesn’t justify a claim that something much different actually happened, or that it didn’t happen at all. Tracey seems like the kind of person who could read three after-the-fact accounts of the weather, with one person saying there was a stiff and steady wind from the east, another saying there was a hard gusty wind from the northeast, and the third saying there was a strong breeze from the north, and then jump to the conclusion that the inconsistencies prove there wasn’t any wind at all that day.

  20. This is called freedom of speech. We do not have to agree with him, but he is entitled to his opinion. I think the man has gone overboard but I must admit I am glad that there are people who do not just believe everything that is written, everything that is seen on tv and internet. I mean the media no longer has any standards, morals or values either online, in print and on tv.

  21. I don’t think anyone has argued that he doesn’t have the legal right to say what he thinks, so I’m not sure what purpose is served by pointing out that he is exercising his free speech rights. Of course he is. Just like that Georgia congressman has a right to claim that the science of embryology is a “lie straight from the pit of Hell” that is promoted by a worldwide conspiracy of scientists who are trying to destroy Christianity. But that doesn’t mean either one of them are somehow admirable because they “do not just believe everything that is written,” or that we should be glad people like that exist.

    As a professor, Tracey is supposed to be operating in an arena where evidence and logic are important tools in forming opinions. For a good article about whether academics are truly “entitled” to their opinion (in a substantive way, not in legal terms), see:
    https://theconversation.edu.au/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978

  22. Remember the conspiracy to invade Iraq?

    This was at the very top echelons of the U.S. Government.

    Remember that the allegations were that Sadaam Hussein did 9/11 in the sense of being part of a conspiracy with bin Laden I suppose.

    He had WMD, and a mushroom cloud could happen or he would fly drones over NYC and drop chemical weapons on Wall Street.

    He was already gassing his own people, so why would he do it to us the bushies argued.

    In that case many people in government got together and agreed on a story, which they knew was false, so that they could convince a trembling congress to let them do whatever they wanted to.

    In the great wisdom of the pitchfork crowd, those who counselled against believing that government conspiracy theory were called conspiracy theorists.

    Real high IQ at work.

    Everyone knows that the U.S. government would not lie about something like that, or that they could not keep it a secret, or that they did not have the competence to lie the country into a war on false premises.

    Too many people in congress were keeping an eye on them as a function of their oversight duties for them to be able to do that.

    But it was a hoax and the pitchfork carrying folk going around yelling “conspiracy theory” went for it.

    Amusing.

  23. Forgetting about this James Tracy for a moment, what follows was once dismissed as “conspiracy theory”, with video of that crazy, conspiracy theorist, Dick Gephardt:

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/10/04/u-s-militarys-secret-experiment-sprayed-radiation-on-low-income-housing/

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Gephardt)

    Article:

    U.S. military’s secret experiment sprayed radiation on low-income housing

    By David Edwards

    Thursday, October 4, 2012 10:36 EST

    Print Friendly
    Share on facebookShare on redditShare on diggShare on twitterShare on farkShare on stumbleupon406

    Lisa Martino-Taylor talks about secret Army testing in St. Louis
    Topics: Army ♦ Lisa Martino-Taylor ♦ Missouri ♦ St. Louis

    A college professor from St. Louis, Missouri has released research claiming that the U.S. Army conducted secret Cold War tests by spraying toxic radioactive chemicals on cities like St. Louis and Corpus Christi.

    St. Louis Community College-Meramec sociology professor Lisa Martino-Taylor told The Associated Press that her research showed that the Army may have sprayed radioactive particles with zinc cadmium sulfide while claiming that it was testing a smoke screen that could prevent Russians from observing St. Louis from the air.

    Those tests were concentrated in predominately-black areas of the city, which Army documents called “a densely populated slum district.”

    In 1994, the Army confirmed to Congress that St. Louis was chosen because it resembled Russian cities that the U.S. might have to attack with biological weapons.

    “The study was secretive for reason,” Martino-Taylor explained to KDSK last month. “They didn’t have volunteers stepping up and saying yeah, I’ll breathe zinc cadmium sulfide with radioactive particles.”

    Documents showed that the Army used airplanes to drop the chemicals in Corpus Christi, but sprayers were mounted on station wagons and buildings in St. Louis.

    “It was pretty shocking. The level of duplicity and secrecy. Clearly they went to great lengths to deceive people,” Martino-Taylor observed. “This was a violation of all medical ethics, all international codes, and the military’s own policy at that time.”

    “There is a lot of evidence that shows people in St. Louis and the city, in particular minority communities, were subjected to military testing that was connected to a larger radiological weapons testing project.”

    Doris Spates lived in one of those impoverished St. Louis neighborhoods as a child and has survived cervical cancer. But four of her siblings and her father weren’t as lucky. All five have died of cancer.

    “I’m wondering if it got into our system,” Spates told the AP. “When I heard about the testing, I thought, ‘Oh my God. If they did that, there’s no telling what else they’re hiding.’”

    Last month, both Missouri Sens. Claire McCaskill (D) and Roy Blunt (R) demanded that Army Secretary John McHugh come clean about the testing. For its part, the Army refused to comment on the matter until it had responded to the senators, the AP reported.

    Watch this video KDSK, broadcast Sept. 25, 2012.

  24. Large sections of the general public went out and purchased guns following the Aurora and Sandy Hook shootings. That continues.

    There was a public prescience that uh, oh, here come gun laws and then overt tyranny.

    And this surge in applications for concealed permits and the purchase of assault weapons took place well before talk of gun laws came up 24/7.

    I mean the increase in gun acquisitions started forthwith, and has continued unabated.

    People do not trust government because they don’t think government can be trusted to do the right thing for the populace.

    The congress and president talk about having to compromise on issues that are part of the public contract, having to compromise in a manner that harms the wee people.

    Great swelling words of dire straits are broadcast 24/7 when it comes to taking more from the people.

    But searches without warrants, spying on Americans, drone killings, the patriot act, indefinite detention of Americans, increased war funding, and things of that ilk rush through congress at full speed and are signed forthwith by the president.

    Based upon the evidence, those are the rational people who see the obvious.

    Those who think politicians have their best interests at heart, after the way the government handled Katrina and now Hurricane Sandy … refusing aid relief in the congress itself, are not the rational people.

    Those in government who think global warming is a liberal hoax want to go full speed ahead with drill baby drill.

    Rational people see the utter madness of this and know that there is nothing those psychopaths in government will not do.

    Thus, some conspiracy theories are very solid and some are very weak, but the strength or weakness of a particular theory comes from examination of the evidence, not from the Pavlovian response that has been built into folks by the corporate media when the words “conspiracy theory” are uttered.

  25. Let’s take a look at what JT called the “suggestion” which is said to have outraged people, and let’s do it from Professor Tracy’s own words:

    The following timeline of the December 14 mass killing of 20 children and 8 adults in Newtown Connecticut attempts to demonstrate how the event was presented to the public by corporate news media.

    (see JT’s Link). So what is wrong with a professor, who teaches classes about media, talking about the media and how they do things?

    Are we there yet, or is it:

    The chronological assemblage of coverage is not comprehensive of all reports published on the incident but rather seeks to verify how the storyline was to a substantial degree constructed by federal and state law enforcement authorities and major media around the theory that 20-year-old Adam Lanza was the sole agent in the massacre.

    (ibid). How is this wildass factual speculation, when the President of The Associated Press has said in public:

    The Bush administration turned the U.S. military into a global propaganda machine while imposing tough restrictions on journalists seeking to give the public truthful reports about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Associated Press chief executive Tom Curley said Friday.

    Curley, speaking to journalists at the University of Kansas, said the news industry must immediately negotiate a new set of rules for covering war because “we are the only force out there to keep the government in check and to hold it accountable.”

    (Warriors Press For Propaganda). The chief journalist says an organization that has ~1,000 military bases in ~191 countries, millions of soldiers, etc., can be turned into a propaganda machine by a few people in government.

    But is “they can’t do infinitely smaller things” the argument against Professor Tracy?

    But where are the words of Professor Tracy which a commenter or two here are condemning Professor Tracy for?

    How about condemning the chief journalist, President of the Associated Press, for his “conspiracy theory?”

    Professor Tracy continues:

    This scenario became an established reality through the news media’s pronounced repetition of the lone gunman narrative and meme. This proposed scenario significantly obscured the fact that police encountered and apprehended two additional shooting suspects on the school’s grounds within minutes of the crime. These suspects remain unaccounted for by authorities but the roles they may have played arguably correlate with the shifting information presented by authorities and major news media on injuries and weapons vis-à-vis the mass carnage meted out in the school.

    (ibid). So is Professor Tracy’s sin pointing out another possibility besides that the nerdy, uncoordinated kid did something commando style like the Bengazi attack?

    Did an obscure video on youtube drive the kid over the top like the media reported that another video did to Bengazi neer-do-wells, ending in the destruction and death of an ambassador and an embassy?

    I read Professor Tracy’s entire long blog post, which in terms of word count, is mostly references to news reports in a sequence.

    I can see nothing in Professor Tracy’s dicta that equates to what the President of the Associated Press said, in terms of something that would be “outrageous.”

    What is important to look at is the evidence Professor Tracy and the President of the Associated Press have or had to back up their hypothetical scenarios.

  26. 1. Prof. Tracy is an acknowledged expert in the history of media.
    2. The massacre in Sandy Hook actually happened.
    3. The only mysteries surrounding the incident relate to the mind of the shooter.
    4. Prof. Tracy is an idiot when he ventures beyond his academic field.

    Sometimes the truth is simple.

  27. Life is full of coincidences, sometimes tragic coincidences. Prof James Tracy should be allowed to write and speak as a conspiracy theorist if he so wishes , but it is more important for teachers to marshal our better instincts. Genocide really happens and this is becoming a cultural genocide . Gun safety laws (selling back automatic weapons and ammunition clips to the army ) are the way to lessen the evil done to school children’s emotional and psychological well being.
    We don’t want to lose our sense of justice and sane fairness. Can the National Institute of Mental Health make a public service TV commercial and ads in NRA publications, rifle magazines etc to the effect stating that ” If you think you’re hearing voices you’re not. You’re just rewording conversations in your imagination you remember from the past” ? It could help . Even countries in war zones don’t have armed guards prowling the schools

  28. Mike Appleton 1, January 9, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    1. Prof. Tracy is an acknowledged expert in the history of media.
    2. The massacre in Sandy Hook actually happened.
    3. The only mysteries surrounding the incident relate to the mind of the shooter.
    4. Prof. Tracy is an idiot when he ventures beyond his academic field.

    Sometimes the truth is simple.
    ==================================================
    1. Agreed.

    2. If you are saying Prof. Tracy said otherwise quote his post where he said it did not happen.

    3. Mysteries are not an issue. Bare faced statements in the press and by officers that two suspects besides the kid were in custody, as well as the kids brother.

    4. Ad hominem is not evidence or valid argument.

    Prof. Tracy’s greatest sin may be this:

    While the certain detainment of additional suspects was pointed to by alternative news media, including Natural News, Infowars, Veterans Today and Global Research in the days following the tragedy, the untenable lone gunman narrative has become firmly established in the public psyche via an overwhelming chorus of corporate media reports and interpretations.

    He calls “the lone gunman narrative” untenable in the face of what several other blogs (“Natural News, Infowars, Veterans Today and Global Research”) as well as the media and officers had reported.

    It is quite hokey to call him an idiot for that observation, because I watched the news too, and that is what was reported at various times during that day.

    People felt the same way about the Bengazi fiction that a fifth grader could tell was untenable.

  29. “Sometimes the truth is simple.” -Mike Appleton

    And sometimes it’s more complicated than it appears.

    “Bullshit is the glue which binds us as a nation.”

  30. Also, as an evidentiary matter, the burden of proof is on a claimant to make. If he thinks the lone gunman scenario is untenable? Where is his proof of a second gunman? His proof that all of the survivors/witnesses are lying? This guy would get eaten alive in a courtroom scenario.

    And comparing Bengazi to this is a facile comparison. Other than guns were involved in both and people died, they have nothing in common in either circumstance or causation.

  31. In the following video of police chatter at the Sandy Hook school (mostly empty) starting at roughly 3:13, there are relevant police comments:

    “A teacher reports two shadows running past the building past the gym.”

    “They’re shooting.” (??)

    “Yeah, we got ’em.”

    “They’re coming at me down Kurt’s (sp) Way!”

    “Got ’em (?)…proned out.”

    Assuming this is the real police dispatch tapes that indicate multiple suspects, one can reasonably demand clarification.

    So, at least until that is cleared up it is not idiotic to call for a clarification of who is correct, the police tapes or the media reports, or both, or neither.

  32. Gene H. 1, January 9, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    Dredd,

    Sometimes stupid is just stupid and it’s no more complicated than that.
    ==========================================
    Stupid is always just stupid.

    Determining when that is, and when it is not, is the function of proper enquiry, not conclusions based on what one wants to be real.

    I can’t fault people for not trusting a s s h o l e s and instead looking deeper.

    The notion that authorities will do great wrongs but not little wrongs does not pass muster IMO.

    I have no idea whether Professor Tracy ultimately has a valid point or whether this was an official clusterf**k by the keystone kops.

    My comments are directed to the procedural aspects, not the ultimate merits.

  33. Thanks for showing that people react off of incomplete evidence, Dredd.

    The media fosters this kind of half-baked conspiracy theory because they often report something as a fact before they know it is actually a fact. Just so, the cops arriving on the scene are not omnipresent. They usually have to take time to figure out what is going on and – surprise! – they don’t always get it right until they have picked up the pieces afterwards. This guy is simpleton if he used the word “untenable”. The evidence – both forensic and testimonial – does not indicate a second gunman. After the heat of the moment has passed, there is no evidence of a second gunman. That’s the bottom line.

  34. Gene H. 1, January 9, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    Also, as an evidentiary matter, the burden of proof is on a claimant to make. If he thinks the lone gunman scenario is untenable? Where is his proof of a second gunman? His proof that all of the survivors/witnesses are lying? This guy would get eaten alive in a courtroom scenario.

    And comparing Bengazi to this is a facile comparison. Other than guns were involved in both and people died, they have nothing in common in either circumstance or causation
    ======================================
    au contraire

    The media indicated that an obscure video on youtube caused some rabble at the embassy to go all rogue and mavericky.

    Somehow they got guns and shot the place up, killing trained guards and people inside because they could not control their rage over the youtube video.

    Then when it became obvious that it was not the work of a nerdy, uncoordinated and untrained youtube watching crowd, but the masterful work of a trained assault squad, the story changed.

    The similarity is that the kid has not been shown to have the skills necessary to do this type of quick commando style massacre — a kid who looks like a handgun or assault rifle in his hands would cause him to soil himself.

    The school videos, if released, would clear all this up and put an end to speculation.

    But like Bengazi, holding back information fuels speculation.

    There were evidently videos all over the school.

    I will absolutely agree to what the evidence shows.

  35. Gene H. 1, January 9, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    Thanks for showing that people react off of incomplete evidence, Dredd.
    ================================================
    Yeah, that happens.

    People are executed and imprisoned all the time, even when the “complete evidence” comes in.

    And is wrong.

    Wanting gaps filled is a healthy endeavor.

    Wanting it “my way or the highway” is not.

  36. mespo727272 1, January 9, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The only thing extraordinary here is how Tracey keeps his job. Must be a right-wing conspiracy.
    ============================================
    It is quite an extraordinary claim that a wimpy kid became Rambo.

    Also that the other suspects handcuffed by the police and detained are not yet adequately explained.

    If they have that evidence they can share it “because the only shooter is dead” and there is no criminal prosecution under way.

    I for one would like to know how the wimpy frail kid became Rambo.

    Who trained him?

    Handling those kinds of weapons does take some training doesn’t it?

    And the motive?

    What is your take on the motive and the skill acquisition?

    Assuming that the kid had lived, as a criminal defense lawyer, would that sort of inquiry be important for the prosecution to address and prove?

  37. “The similarity is that the kid has not been shown to have the skills necessary to do this type of quick commando style massacre — a kid who looks like a handgun or assault rifle in his hands would cause him to soil himself.”

    Really? There is no proof of that statement and if there is, produce it. That’s an opinion, not evidence.

    And even if so? There is still no critical similarity between a politically/religiously motivated attack on an embassy – regardless of the perps being trained or not – and the Sandy Hook episode which was perpetrated by an individual for motives largely inscrutable with him not being available for psychological evaluation and against school children who aren’t armed and trained to defend themselves like some of the embassy staff was.

    You’re reaching because you want to say “don’t trust the media”. I agree with that in as a general principle. Always verify and get as much information as possible. However, there is no substantive evidence here to indicate a second gunman.

    Professor Foot In His Mouth should produce it if it exists.

    Otherwise his conjecture is baseless and it harms the victims.

    Your defense of a conspiracy theorist simply because he’s a conspiracy theorist and some (but certainly not all or even a preponderance of) conspiracies are real? Is ridiculous. Prove a second gunman. Prove if there is a second gunman, who would benefit from him/her/it not being known and pursued? Who would benefit from such a cover up? The victims who saw only one gunman? The families of the victims? The police? Why would the police have an interest in covering up a criminal the victims themselves say doesn’t exist?

    Your reasoning on this matter is way beyond faulty.

  38. “Otherwise his conjecture is baseless and it harms the victims.” -Gene H.

    While his conjecture may, in fact, be baseless, how, specifically, does his conjecture “harm the victims?”

  39. anonymously posted 1, January 9, 2013 at 11:40 am

    “what follows was once dismissed as “conspiracy theory”
    Article:
    U.S. military’s secret experiment sprayed radiation on low-income housing”

    Want the rest? (That we know of)

    HISTORY OF SECRET EXPERIMENTATION
    ON UNITED STATES CITIZENS

    1931 Dr. Cornelius Rhoads, under the auspices of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Investigations, infects human subjects with cancer cells. He later goes on to establish the U.S. Army Biological Warfare facilities in Maryland, Utah, and Panama, and is named to the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission. While there, he begins a series of radiation exposure experiments on American soldiers and civilian hospital patients.

    1932 The Tuskegee Syphilis Study begins. 200 black men diagnosed with syphilis are never told of their illness, are denied treatment, and instead are used as human guinea pigs in order to follow the progression and symptoms of the disease. They all subsequently die from syphilis, their families never told that they could have been treated.

    1935 The Pellagra Incident. After millions of individuals die from Pellagra over a span of two decades, the U.S. Public Health Service finally acts to stem the disease. The director of the agency admits it had known for at least 20 years that Pellagra is caused by a niacin deficiency but failed to act since most of the deaths occurred within poverty-stricken black populations.

    1940 Four hundred prisoners in Chicago are infected with Malaria in order to study the effects of new and experimental drugs to combat the disease. Nazi doctors later on trial at Nuremberg cite this American study to defend their own actions during the Holocaust.

    1942 Chemical Warfare Services begins mustard gas experiments on approximately 4,000 servicemen. The experiments continue until 1945 and made use of Seventh Day Adventists who chose to become human guinea pigs rather than serve on active duty.

    1943 In response to Japan’s full-scale germ warfare program, the U.S. begins research on biological weapons at Fort Detrick, MD.

    1944 U.S. Navy uses human subjects to test gas masks and clothing. Individuals were locked in a gas chamber and exposed to mustard gas and lewisite.

    1945 Project Paperclip is initiated. The U.S. State Department, Army intelligence, and the CIA recruit Nazi scientists and offer them immunity and secret identities in exchange for work on top secret government projects in the United States.

    1945 “Program F” is implemented by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission (AEC). This is the most extensive U.S. study of the health effects of fluoride, which was the key chemical component in atomic bomb production. One of the most toxic chemicals known to man, fluoride, it is found, causes marked adverse effects to the central nervous system but much of the information is squelched in the name of national security because of fear that lawsuits would undermine full-scale production of atomic bombs.

    1946 Patients in VA hospitals are used as guinea pigs for medical experiments. In order to allay suspicions, the order is given to change the word “experiments” to “investigations” or “observations” whenever reporting a medical study performed in one of the nation’s veteran’s hospitals.

    1947 Colonel E.E. Kirkpatrick of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission issues a secret document (Document 07075001, January 8, 1947) stating that the agency will begin administering intravenous doses of radioactive substances to human subjects.

    1947 The CIA begins its study of LSD as a potential weapon for use by American intelligence. Human subjects (both civilian and military) are used with and without their knowledge.

    1950 Department of Defense begins plans to detonate nuclear weapons in desert areas and monitor downwind residents for medical problems and mortality rates.

    1950 In an experiment to determine how susceptible an American city would be to biological attack, the U.S. Navy sprays a cloud of bacteria from ships over San Franciso. Monitoring devices are situated throughout the city in order to test the extent of infection. Many residents become ill with pneumonia-like symptoms.

    1951 Department of Defense begins open air tests using disease-producing bacteria and viruses. Tests last through 1969 and there is concern that people in the surrounding areas have been exposed.

    1953 U.S. military releases clouds of zinc cadmium sulfide gas over Winnipeg, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Fort Wayne, the Monocacy River Valley in Maryland, and Leesburg, Virginia. Their intent is to determine how efficiently they could disperse chemical agents.

    1953 Joint Army-Navy-CIA experiments are conducted in which tens of thousands of people in New York and San Francisco are exposed to the airborne germs Serratia marcescens and Bacillus glogigii.

    1953 CIA initiates Project MKULTRA. This is an eleven year research program designed to produce and test drugs and biological agents that would be used for mind control and behavior modification. Six of the subprojects involved testing the agents on unwitting human beings.

    1955 The CIA, in an experiment to test its ability to infect human populations with biological agents, releases a bacteria withdrawn from the Army’s biological warfare arsenal over Tampa Bay, Fl.

    1955 Army Chemical Corps continues LSD research, studying its potential use as a chemical incapacitating agent. More than 1,000 Americans participate in the tests, which continue until 1958.

    1956 U.S. military releases mosquitoes infected with Yellow Fever over Savannah, Ga and Avon Park, Fl. Following each test, Army agents posing as public health officials test victims for effects.

    1958 LSD is tested on 95 volunteers at the Army’s Chemical Warfare Laboratories for its effect on intelligence.

    1960 The Army Assistant Chief-of-Staff for Intelligence (ACSI) authorizes field testing of LSD in Europe and the Far East. Testing of the european population is code named Project THIRD CHANCE; testing of the Asian population is code named Project DERBY HAT.

    1965 CIA and Department of Defense begin Project MKSEARCH, a program to develop a capability to manipulate human behavior through the use of mind-altering drugs.

    1965 Prisoners at the Holmesburg State Prison in Philadelphia are subjected to dioxin, the highly toxic chemical component of Agent Orange used in Viet Nam. The men are later studied for development of cancer, which indicates that Agent Orange had been a suspected carcinogen all along.

    1966 CIA initiates Project MKOFTEN, a program to test the toxicological effects of certain drugs on humans and animals.

    1966 U.S. Army dispenses Bacillus subtilis variant niger throughout the New York City subway system. More than a million civilians are exposed when army scientists drop lightbulbs filled with the bacteria onto ventilation grates.

    1967 CIA and Department of Defense implement Project MKNAOMI, successor to MKULTRA and designed to maintain, stockpile and test biological and chemical weapons.

    1968 CIA experiments with the possibility of poisoning drinking water by injecting chemicals into the water supply of the FDA in Washington, D.C.

    1969 Dr. Robert MacMahan of the Department of Defense requests from congress $10 million to develop, within 5 to 10 years, a synthetic biological agent to which no natural immunity exists.

    1970 Funding for the synthetic biological agent is obtained under H.R. 15090. The project, under the supervision of the CIA, is carried out by the Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick, the army’s top secret biological weapons facility. Speculation is raised that molecular biology techniques are used to produce AIDS-like retroviruses.

    1970 United States intensifies its development of “ethnic weapons” (Military Review, Nov., 1970), designed to selectively target and eliminate specific ethnic groups who are susceptible due to genetic differences and variations in DNA.

    1975 The virus section of Fort Detrick’s Center for Biological Warfare Research is renamed the Fredrick Cancer Research Facilities and placed under the supervision of the National Cancer Institute (NCI) . It is here that a special virus cancer program is initiated by the U.S. Navy, purportedly to develop cancer-causing viruses. It is also here that retrovirologists isolate a virus to which no immunity exists. It is later named HTLV (Human T-cell Leukemia Virus).

    1977 Senate hearings on Health and Scientific Research confirm that 239 populated areas had been contaminated with biological agents between 1949 and 1969. Some of the areas included San Francisco, Washington, D.C., Key West, Panama City, Minneapolis, and St. Louis.

    1978 Experimental Hepatitis B vaccine trials, conducted by the CDC, begin in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco. Ads for research subjects specifically ask for promiscuous homosexual men.

    1981 First cases of AIDS are confirmed in homosexual men in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco, triggering speculation that AIDS may have been introduced via the Hepatitis B vaccine.

    1985 According to the journal Science (227:173-177), HTLV and VISNA, a fatal sheep virus, are very similar, indicating a close taxonomic and evolutionary relationship.

    1986 According to the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (83:4007-4011), HIV and VISNA are highly similar and share all structural elements, except for a small segment which is nearly identical to HTLV. This leads to speculation that HTLV and VISNA may have been linked to produce a new retrovirus to which no natural immunity exists.

    1986 A report to Congress reveals that the U.S. Government’s current generation of biological agents includes: modified viruses, naturally occurring toxins, and agents that are altered through genetic engineering to change immunological character and prevent treatment by all existing vaccines.

    1987 Department of Defense admits that, despite a treaty banning research and development of biological agents, it continues to operate research facilities at 127 facilities and universities around the nation.

    1990 More than 1500 six-month old black and hispanic babies in Los Angeles are given an “experimental” measles vaccine that had never been licensed for use in the United States. CDC later admits that parents were never informed that the vaccine being injected to their children was experimental.

    1994 With a technique called “gene tracking,” Dr. Garth Nicolson at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, TX discovers that many returning Desert Storm veterans are infected with an altered strain of Mycoplasma incognitus, a microbe commonly used in the production of biological weapons. Incorporated into its molecular structure is 40 percent of the HIV protein coat, indicating that it had been man-made.

    1994 Senator John D. Rockefeller issues a report revealing that for at least 50 years the Department of Defense has used hundreds of thousands of military personnel in human experiments and for intentional exposure to dangerous substances. Materials included mustard and nerve gas, ionizing radiation, psychochemicals, hallucinogens, and drugs used during the Gulf War.

    1995 U.S. Government admits that it had offered Japanese war criminals and scientists who had performed human medical experiments salaries and immunity from prosecution in exchange for data on biological warfare research.

    1995 Dr. Garth Nicolson, uncovers evidence that the biological agents used during the Gulf War had been manufactured in Houston, TX and Boca Raton, Fl and tested on prisoners in the Texas Department of Corrections.

    1996 Department of Defense admits that Desert Storm soldiers were exposed to chemical agents.

    1997 Eighty-eight members of Congress sign a letter demanding an investigation into bioweapons use & Gulf War Syndrome.
    © 1998-2000 Health News

  40. Gene, Mespo,

    The police took two live people into custody who were running from the scene.

    According to the police tapes I posted and assume are real.

    I do not know what happened to those two, who were also shown on police / news chopper videos running in the bushes by the school.

    “regardless of the perps being trained or not”

    Oh no, not only motive, but training, planning, and coordinated effort are required.

    I would also like to see the reports of an autopsy of the kid, especially his brain.

    There is no valid motive presented yet, so a brain tumor or the like is what I would expect (like the Texas shooter … who was a marine sniper in “another life” before he massacred folks at U. of TX at Austin).

  41. Gene H. 1, January 9, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    ap,

    It keeps an open psychological wound open by sowing doubt contrary to the evidence.

    ====

    We’ll just have to respectfully disagree. Perhaps you’re not giving the victims enough credit. If the official account stands up to scrutiny, then there would be little room for doubt.

    Pat Tillman’s family members come to mind…

  42. Gene H. 1, January 9, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    ap,

    It keeps an open psychological wound open by sowing doubt contrary to the evidence.
    ======================================
    Criminal defense lawyers are bound by law to sow doubt.

    Reasonable doubt.

    And it is always contrary to “the evidence” the state sets forth.

    People cry.

    But the enquiry must be robust if the evidence is to be free of doubt.

  43. Here’s a comment I posted on Professor Tracey’s site. It is awaiting moderation. If it sees the light of day and if I get a reply, I’ll advise:

    Just a few questions I have after reading this:

    Do extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof? Can things happen as a matter of coincidence? Is cause and effect as easy to master as you imply? Is there a logic class at Florida International? Does Occam’s Razor mean anything to you? Does the shock value of a theory sometimes substitute for a lack rigorous inquiry in some academic circles?

    And most importantly, are you shaping young minds?

  44. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -mespo727272

    In a court of law, yes, but not in the blogosphere.

    The only thing extraordinary here is how Tracey keeps his job. -mesoo727272

    Good for FAU for recognizing his right to blog.

  45. Again, ask the questions above: If a second gunman exists, prove it (that the police allegedly stopped two people running from the scene is evidence of nothing more than people running from the scene – a reasonable reaction to gunfire). Prove if there is a second gunman, who would benefit from him/her/it not being known and pursued? Who would benefit from such a cover up? The victims who saw only one gunman? The families of the victims? The police? Why would the police have an interest in covering up a criminal the victims themselves say doesn’t exist?

    “Oh no, not only motive, but training, planning, and coordinated effort are required.”

    Horseshit opinion. A motive (rational or otherwise) is a secondary consideration, planning is only relevant if the perp is alive and only for charging purposes, but coordination is relevant only if an actual provable conspiracy exits/existed and training is simply not required. He was attacking primarily children, not spec ops troops.

  46. Peter Lanza father of Adam Lanza Tax Director and Vice President – Taxes at GE Energy Financial Services http://www.linkedin.com/pub/peter-lanza/11/515/83b

    Robert Holmes father of James Holmes lead fraud scientist for the credit score company FICO

    Both men were to testify before the US Sentate in the ongoing LIBOR scandal.

    Now like Hillary they will get more time to get their story straight..

  47. And most importantly, are you shaping young minds? -mespo727272

    I would contend that perhaps he’s teaching young people to think critically, as well as to challenge official accounts and the role of the media in shaping public opinion.

    FAU = Florida Atlantic University, for the record

  48. Justsayin 1, January 9, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    Both men were to testify before the US Sentate in the ongoing LIBOR scandal.
    ==========================================
    That is a know hoax.

  49. Dredd,

    And defense arguments fail when the evidence is squarely against them.

    **************

    ap,

    Perhaps you are discounting the size of the sample space and the general frailties in human psychology. This episode involves many more people than the Tillman episode. Odd are someone has latched on to the “second gunman” theory already and to their detriment. Agreeing with me isn’t mandatory, but if you should choose to disagree with mathematics, that is your choice.

    “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -mespo727272

    In a court of law, yes, but not in the blogosphere.”

    Actually that statement is paraphrasing Carl Sagan speaking about the reality of extraterrestrial visitation to Earth, but it is a cogent principle in both science and law as well as good logical and evidentiary practice. That the blogosphere can (and often is) inherently irrational does not change that maxim’s utility or proper role in critical analysis.

  50. However, filling gaps with baseless conjecture and supposition is the meat and potatoes of delusional thinking.

  51. AP:

    I forgot to add: Yes, there is such a thing as a dumb question, e.g., “Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?”

    Tracey’s theory is just about as crass.

  52. mespo727272 1, January 9, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    ap:

    Come on, ap. Pushing kids to ask absurd questions isn’t Socratic; it’s Glenn Beck-ic..

    mespo:

    These are college kids. Pushing young adults to recognize absurdity is critically important. Teaching young adults to dig and dissect is equally important.

  53. Tracey’s theory is just about as crass. -mespo727272

    Crass or not, he has the right to espouse it.

  54. “These are college kids. Pushing young adults to recognize absurdity is critically important. Teaching young adults to dig and dissect is equally important.”

    There are better ways to accomplish this than by ill-thought out public proclamations.

  55. “Crass or not, he has the right to espouse it.”

    And I don’t think anyone here is arguing otherwise. As I said before, being stupid isn’t against the law.

  56. However, filling gaps with baseless conjecture and supposition is the meat and potatoes of delusional thinking.

    Delusions are clearly in the mind of the beholder. Personally, I’m a firm believer in filling the gaps with the truth, but that’s just me.

  57. ap:

    ” Pushing young adults to recognize absurdity is critically important. ”

    *********************

    We agree on that. I’d start with assigning the FAU prof’s blog post and letting them compare it with one from here.

    Vero nihil verius!

  58. Gene H:

    “As I said before, being stupid isn’t against the law.”

    ************************

    Personally, I think it’s government subsidized given its pervasiveness.

  59. Justsayin

    I was going to reply: “That’s a hard truth,” but, then again, that really would be crass..

  60. “Delusions are clearly in the mind of the beholder. Personally, I’m a firm believer in filling the gaps with the truth, but that’s just me.”

    This is a contradictory statement. The truth is in the evidence and any attendant logic based thereupon. When gaps are filled based on conjecture and supposition instead of evidence and logic, there is always room for error. Just so, delusion is clearly in the mind of the thinker based upon their willingness to ignore or distort evidentiary facts and/or logic. That delusions are apparent to the beholder who uses evidence and logic over conjecture and supposition is simply a manifest truth of observer not being the observed.

  61. Gene H. 1, January 9, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    “Again, ask the questions above: If a second gunman exists, prove it ”

    If a second gunman does not exist you prove it Gene H.
    ——————————————————
    “(that the police allegedly stopped two people running from the scene is evidence of nothing more than people running from the scene – a reasonable reaction to gunfire). ”

    It is also probable cause … a reasonable reaction to guilt.
    ——————————————————
    “Prove if there is a second gunman”

    You prove there is not.
    ——————————————————
    “who would benefit from him/her/it not being known and pursued? Who would benefit from such a cover up? The victims who saw only one gunman? The families of the victims? The police? Why would the police have an interest in covering up a criminal the victims themselves say doesn’t exist?”

    The evidence (school videos, the kids history … who he hung with, talked with etc. etc.) is the only thing that will answer those questions.

    No one benefits if the evidence is not shared with the public.
    ——————————————————-
    “‘Oh no, not only motive, but training, planning, and coordinated effort are required.’

    Horseshit opinion.”

    Likewise yours.

    I have listened to experts talking about how he had to have training, planning, and various levels of coordination to pull it off.
    ——————————————————-
    “A motive (rational or otherwise) is a secondary consideration”

    Motivation is critical. Why would a wimpy kid turn into Rambo … eating hamburgers at McDonalds?
    ————————————————————
    “planning is only relevant if the perp is alive and only for charging purposes”

    He was alive when he planned it whether with someone else or alone.
    ————————————————————
    “but coordination is relevant only if an actual provable conspiracy exits/existed”

    No, he had to do it, alone or otherwise, at a coordinated time … like when the school was open and people were there and e.g. security was not (cops, etc.) … had to get weapons and ammo, bullet proof vests, etc.
    —————————————————————–
    “and training is simply not required.”

    Give an assault rifle with hundreds of rounds, hand guns, and a shotgun to a wimpy kid like him on the street and the kid will soil themselves … he had to go through some hardening somewhere somehow.

    Common sense … don’t leave it at home.
    —————————————————————–
    “He was attacking primarily children …”

    Hardened, really hardened. Who or what hardened him?
    —————————————————————–
    You show me any examples of wimpy kids who become Rambo and mass murder innocent children without gun training, accuracy training, emotional training.

    Even marine boot camp soldiers would have to go through serious conditioning to pull off something like that.

    Such an extraordinary situation requires extraordinary reasons for his utter morph into an incomprehensible monster (assuming the media facts to be true that he did it alone and unaided in any way).

  62. “Delusions are clearly in the mind of the beholder. Personally, I’m a firm believer in filling the gaps with the truth, but that’s just me.”

    “This is a contradictory statement.” -Gene H.

    Two statements, not one. In haste, I connected them, without explanation. They should stand alone.

  63. ap:

    “Crass or not, he has the right to espouse it.”

    *************************

    There’s a big stretch of road between what one “can do” and what one “ought to do.” The law is the bare minimum conduct. I’d expect more from a Professor.

  64. Gene H. 1, January 9, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    “When gaps are filled based on conjecture and supposition instead of evidence and logic, there is always room for error.”

    And when they are not they are not. The second Kennedy assassination enquiry, beginning with Church Committee, determined that there was a conspiracy:

    Their report concluded that the investigation on the assassination by FBI and CIA were fundamentally deficient and the facts which have greatly affected the investigation had not been forwarded to the Warren Commission by the agencies. It also found that the FBI, the agency with primary responsibility on the matter, was ordered by Director Hoover and pressured by unnamed higher government officials to conclude its investigation quickly. The report hinted that there was a possibility that senior officials in both agencies made conscious decisions not to disclose potentially important information.

    As a result of increasing public pressure caused partly by the finding of the Church Committee, the United States House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) was established in 1976 to investigate the assassinations of President Kennedy … The Committee investigated until 1978, and in 1979 issued its final report, concluding that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.

    (Wikipedia). The big take away from that is that the initial investigation in any public matter of import must not leave any gaps.
    ——————————————————————-
    “Just so, delusion is clearly in the mind of the thinker based upon their willingness to ignore or distort evidentiary facts and/or logic. That delusions are apparent to the beholder who uses evidence and logic over conjecture and supposition is simply a manifest truth of observer not being the observed.”

    Denial is an artful endeavor to preserve the world view of the sufferer.

    Cover ups are not delusional in that sense, but they are psychopathic.

    Incompetence, which can produce similar results compared to the other two, is sometimes more difficult to unwind.

    The worst is when there is a little bit of each in the mix.

  65. “If a second gunman does not exist you prove it Gene H.”

    I don’t have to prove there was not. The preponderance of the evidence is that there was only one gunman and I am not claiming otherwise. That’s not how argument works, Dredd. The burden of proof to prove your assertion there is a second gunman is upon you. It’s your assertion. You prove it.

    “It is also probable cause … a reasonable reaction to guilt.”

    Probable cause for a stop is not the equivalent of guilt.

    “Likewise yours.

    I have listened to experts talking about how he had to have training, planning, and various levels of coordination to pull it off.”

    Present your proof then. Until then, it’s horseshit opinion, unlike mine which is based on the evidence not some hare-brained theory.

    “No, he had to do it, alone or otherwise, at a coordinated time … like when the school was open and people were there and e.g. security was not (cops, etc.) … had to get weapons and ammo, bullet proof vests, etc.”

    You mistake coordination with planning. Coordination is legally a component of conspiracy. You evidence planning, not coordination.

    “Motivation is critical. Why would a wimpy kid turn into Rambo … eating hamburgers at McDonalds?”

    Motivation is a secondary consideration to action unless you can prove planning aforethought to commit murder which is an extenuating circumstance in charging for capital murder.

    ‘Give an assault rifle with hundreds of rounds, hand guns, and a shotgun to a wimpy kid like him on the street and the kid will soil themselves … he had to go through some hardening somewhere somehow.

    Common sense … don’t leave it at home.”

    Good advice. Too bad you can’t take it yourself. Your entire statement is predicated on him being a “wimpy kid on the street” and that “hardening” is a prerequisite for using weapons to kill.

    It isn’t. People kill people every day without any training. Even mass murderers.

    ““He was attacking primarily children …”

    Hardened, really hardened. Who or what hardened him?”

    Uh . . . I’m going out on a limb here and say maybe he was f*cking crazy?

    “You show me any examples of wimpy kids who become Rambo and mass murder innocent children without gun training, accuracy training, emotional training.”

    Columbine. 12 students and one teacher dead. Neither kid had military grade training.

    You’re desperation in rationalizing this is a sad reminder that reasons and rationalizations are not the same thing, Dredd.

  66. ap:

    “Crass or not, he has the right to espouse it.”

    *************************

    There’s a big stretch of road between what one “can do” and what one “ought to do.” The law is the bare minimum conduct. I’d expect more from a Professor.

    =========

    Where does one draw the line?

    What if the professor had questioned the official account of Pat Tillman’s death before people started digging?

    Pat Tillman’s Father To Army Investigator: ‘F— You… And Yours’ (EXCLUSIVE)

    First Posted: 08/12/10 02:04 PM ET Updated: 05/25/11 06:20 PM ET

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/12/pat-tillmans-father-to-ar_n_680128.html

  67. There are plenty of conspiracy theorists out there.
    There are also plenty of conspiracies.
    There are plenty of lunatics.
    There are even plenty of lunatics among well educated and prestigious intellectuals.
    There probably was an actual event that is pretty close to what was reported to have taken place in Newtown.
    About how many of the above circles will overlap on any grand Venn Diagram, who knows?

  68. Gene H. 1, January 9, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    You’re desperation in rationalizing this is a sad reminder that reasons and rationalizations are not the same thing, Dredd.
    ===================================================
    That is what they said about the Kennedy conspiracy theory for years, until they didn’t anymore.

    Following a competent follow-up investigation.

    Character assassination was the province of scoundrels all those years.

    And they felt no remorse after being proven wrong — because they can’t.

    A s s h o l e s have nothing else to go on except … (according to scientists).

  69. However, filling gaps with baseless conjecture and supposition is the meat and potatoes of delusional thinking. -Gene H.

    Refer to my earlier comment posted today, January 9, 2013, at 2:52 pm.

    Gene H.’s words (above) appear to be mine, but are not.

  70. ap:

    Where does one draw the line?

    *******************

    I think that question is the essence of judgment and the answer is you make the best judgment based on experience. See Wombat, above.

    No judgment needed however where reasonable people can agree like here. Exceptions to main stream thinking don’t prove main stream thinking is always wrong; usually they validate it.

  71. Lot’s been said since I told you how it went down as a conspiracy by the government. Can’t prove it. When it is done by pros it is hard to prove otherwise. Thanks to the one who named the other on-site suspects who have disappeared into smoke.

    Neither has JFK, MLK or RFK been proven other than manipulated facts quickly advanced, in a race to be first was widely and in paucity of contrary evidence was repeated over and over. The investigations are manipulated whatever who did them. Commissions and Congress are bought or selected for a given theory’s acceptance and approval for public disinformation.

    That is the way it is. We should be thankful that Prof Tracy knows the media for what it is. Bought and paid for as to content carried.

    I thought that the one inch article on drone attack was very appropriate in medias unresponsiveness to keeping the gov’t’s feet to the fire. Notice any of the latter lately. Link it please.

    I would support Dredd at this point who has advanced facts and very little speculation. Many other challengers of the Professor on various grounds make me wonder where they got their facts—-if any.

    For the CIA, this is pure routine, SOP, no sweat. To believe otherwise is being naive. There at least 20+ well-researched books just on the CIA alone. But when it comes to holding tight, CIA can.

    Read the Russ Baker book on the Secrets of the Bushes.

  72. This story is sure to cause another surge in gun purchases:

    Joe Biden On Gun Group Meeting: ‘The President And I Are Determined To Take Action’

    The Huffington Post has obtained additional details about the meeting from a White House Pool Report. Biden, according to the report, explained that “the president IS going to act.” The White House has determined that “executive action can be taken,” stated the Vice President. The specifics of that action have not yet been settled.

    (Huffington Post). The administration does not seem to think it needs to take the fearful feelings of gun toters, which is the fastest growing group, into consideration.

    Something is afoot.

  73. Ballistics you say. How dumb are you?
    His mama’s gun and the one used by the real gunman had identical rifling. and proven by test firing ahead ot the planting at the Lanza house.
    Shell casins analysis for firing pin comparisons on ALL the casings. Did the local police have money for that; or did the FBI offer to aid them with that.

    Don’t you understand they are spying on all of us? Have you accepted that yet. Both FBI, CIA, and NSA and other alphabet soup. And not for our protection if that was what you thought.

    Now who is going to attack me and not the argument/opinions?
    Not my worry at all. I love humans, even bad ones.

  74. idealist707 1, January 9, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    Lot’s been said since I told you how it went down as a conspiracy by the government. Can’t prove it. When it is done by pros it is hard to prove otherwise. Thanks to the one who named the other on-site suspects who have disappeared into smoke.

    Neither has JFK, MLK or RFK been proven other than manipulated facts quickly advanced, in a race to be first was widely and in paucity of contrary evidence was repeated over and over. The investigations are manipulated whatever who did them. Commissions and Congress are bought or selected for a given theory’s acceptance and approval for public disinformation.

    That is the way it is. We should be thankful that Prof Tracy knows the media for what it is. Bought and paid for as to content carried.

    I thought that the one inch article on drone attack was very appropriate in medias unresponsiveness to keeping the gov’t’s feet to the fire. Notice any of the latter lately. Link it please.

    I would support Dredd at this point who has advanced facts and very little speculation. Many other challengers of the Professor on various grounds make me wonder where they got their facts—-if any.

    For the CIA, this is pure routine, SOP, no sweat. To believe otherwise is being naive. There at least 20+ well-researched books just on the CIA alone. But when it comes to holding tight, CIA can.

    Read the Russ Baker book on the Secrets of the Bushes.
    =================================================
    Yes, we should not be held to any more of a degree of proof than in a court scenario.

    The government has the burden of proof, because as our forefathers knew, those in power (religious or secular) are the most likely to be or become corrupt (Lord Acton).

    The Obama boyz coming out hard against medical marijuana rights of the states, and now saying they don’t need no stinkin’ congress to regulate guns, is perplexing.

    It is sure to freak out those who said this is coming … and why should gun owners be less appreciated for prescience than any other group?

    Predicting something is one of the requirements of a hypothesis before it is advanced or elevated into a theory after all.

  75. What you point to in the Biden article, Dredd, is evidence that the Executive thinks they can continue to run roughshod over the Constitution without the checks of Congressional approval. Why? Because we – and specifically a non-functional Congress – has let the unitary Executive expand without challenge since the Bush years. However, when it comes to the 2nd Amendment? I think Obama is going to find that imposing his will without the consent of the governed is going to be easier said than done.

  76. I was wondering how they already had some pages set up for the victims of the shooting on Facebook and other sites on December 11, when the tragedy occurred on December 14. Then of course there’s that picture of that little girl that was murdered, but she’s posing with her family and Mr. Obama. And that strange coincidence that Mr. Holmes attorney from the cinema shooting is also a parent at Sandy Hook. Not sure what’s going on, but it has me scratching my head.

  77. “However, when it comes to the 2nd Amendment? I think Obama is going to find that imposing his will without the consent of the governed is going to be easier said than done.”

    You’re right. You’ll see that “well regulated militia” assemble really quickly if Zero tries to go after every honest citizen’s firearms.

  78. nick,

    Precisely. This story is a perfect example of the media running with tabloid journalism (writing which uses opinionated or wild claims) and yellow journalism (writing which emphasizes exaggerated claims or rumors).

  79. GeneH,

    I see clearly where you are but will do my duty as commenter here.

    What’s in common between Benghazi and Sandy Hook,,,,,paraphrased

    The CIA. Romney was there making up the press release according to “sources” the during several days ahead of time., and if the CIA could fix the igniting film, it sure could hold the fort at the consulate for 3 hours minimun, time enough for the media to wake up. And no guerilla force would or could do that.

  80. “Believing in a few conspiracies myself I’ve found that one must pay close attention to the time spent in contemplating them. If too much time is spent paranoia takes over and the world becomes weird and scary. Tracy needs to put energy into other interests before his life becomes a nightmare, or perhaps it’s too late.”

    My comment above at 1:11am was the third comment on this thread, made as I was beginning to fall asleep. Reading all of these comments today and going to this Professor’s actual blog has changed my viewpoint a bit. First, some might call me somewhat of a conspiracy believer as many of my guest blogs have shown. I believe that JFK, MLK and RFK were murdered via conspiracy with possible input by Agencies such as the CIA and FBI. I also believe that Lincoln was also murdered as part of a plot involving some elements of the government. The Iraq War was made as a part of a conspiracy to take over the Iraqi oil resources and so on and so forth. The problem though with immersing oneself into conspiracy speculation is that it immerses one in paranoia and paranoia unfortunately feeds on itself leading a person into a downward spiral of suspicion. So while the evidence I’ve seen has convinced me of the truth of some of these suspicions, I not only don’t mentally dwell upon conspiracy, but make a conscious effort not to do so. This isn’t dichotomy, nor is it denial, it is merely the best mentally healthful course to take. Other than openly advocating my thinking, which I’ve done here at times,
    I know I lack the power to rectify anything and don’t believe in futile gestures.
    Paranoia and suspicion poisons ones social interactions and life.

    Now what a person can healthfully do with this belief is to try to learn how the public can be fooled by forces with power and mislead by the incompetence of our mainstream media. This is in fact what Gene and I have tried to accomplish in his blogs on propaganda and my blogs dealing with mythology. This is my way of trying to combat these excesses and Gene can speak for himself as to his motives. From what I’ve read this is what Professor Tracy teaches in his media courses, trying to sift through the hype and propaganda. However, if one reads through his blog on this subject it really is a toss-up if he wrote it as instruction on how to see the media and government “shape” a story; if he really believes Sandy Hook is a conspiracy; or if finally he is doing some self-promotion. Perhaps all three come into play. This is why I commented on the problem with letting paranoia run away with your thinking.

    Finally, reading his entire blog and also having kept current on Sandy Hook, I believe the inconsistencies we see are not the result of some plot being hidden, but the simple expression of our mass media and of our officialdom
    trying to present a coherent narrative out of what was an incoherent and insane tragedy. At this point I have no way of knowing Professor Tracy’s motive, but I wouldn’t condemn him outright for his expressions and I certainly would support his right to voicing them.

  81. id707,

    And your proof of CIA involvement in Sandy Hook is what exactly?

    Does it come from the same kind of “sources”?

    What benefit does the CIA have for Sandy Hook? Unlike Benghazi, there is none. Even if the CIA set up the film as a point of blame in Benghazi, it worked as an initial distraction to the true nature of the actions there and even once exposed it becomes immaterial because it served its purpose supposing that was their intention and it wasn’t just coincidence. A lot of intel and counter-intel operations work that way. Let us suppose the CIA had an interest in perpetrating Sandy Hook. If it were discovered? It would be open season on CIA employees if they were found to have had a hand in killing American children, let alone it would be evidence of them operating on American soil in contravention of their legal charter of operations. There isn’t enough security to protect them if that turned out to be true. There is no apparent upside to doing such a thing undiscovered and discovered it is a recipe for armed insurrection. I really seriously doubt absent some extraordinary evidence that the CIA had any involvement in Sandy Hook. It doesn’t make sense from an intel ops point.

  82. Mike,

    “This is in fact what Gene and I have tried to accomplish in his blogs on propaganda and my blogs dealing with mythology. This is my way of trying to combat these excesses and Gene can speak for himself as to his motives.”

    I would agree and refer to Marcus Aurelius as to my motivation (with a stipulation): “I seek the truth by which no man was ever injured. But he is injured who abides in his error and ignorance.” To seek the truth, one must have the skills to discern truth from lie, information from propaganda.

    And this statement I agree with without reservation: “I believe the inconsistencies we see are not the result of some plot being hidden, but the simple expression of our mass media and of our officialdom
    trying to present a coherent narrative out of what was an incoherent and insane tragedy.”

  83. Thank you Dredd, for keeping up the argument in the face of so much willful ignorance and/or naïveté.

    I would just like to point out that the original post contained this paragraph:
    “Tracy appears a full-time conspiracy theorist who has questioned the official account of the Kennedy assassination, the 9/11 terror attacks and the Aurora, Colo., movie theater massacre.”
    That just sounds ridiculous in this day and age, I don’t know anyone who believes the “main-stream-media” “official account” of 9/11 or the Kennedy assassination!
    In this age of internet, anyone who still clings to the “official accounts” is living in denial or … in main stream media wonderland

  84. Gene H. 1, January 9, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    What you point to in the Biden article, Dredd, is evidence that the Executive thinks they can continue to run roughshod over the Constitution without the checks of Congressional approval. Why? Because we – and specifically a non-functional Congress – has let the unitary Executive expand without challenge since the Bush years. However, when it comes to the 2nd Amendment? I think Obama is going to find that imposing his will without the consent of the governed is going to be easier said than done.
    ===============================================
    Yes, agreed.

    They are in a bubble and out of touch with the public on some fundamental issues.

    There is a hardened core of people who saw this coming, and I must say I do not know how they knew, because I did not agree with them about it.

    But it is a very substantial number in the very millions.

    People put up with things to a point, and then they don’t any more.

    They are playing with fire, both sides of the issue.

    What ties it in is that those who see more than the media does in these massacres, expect that it is associated with a government policy directed at more intense subjugation.

    The related aspect is that the people with guns and the growing number getting more guns feel that is their only way out.

    They plan to shoot it out with the a s s h o l e s to the very end.

    Like I say, bubbles abound and I have no attachment to either side one way or another, being a believer in peaceful resolution of differences.

    I have no guns since I left the great outdoors some years ago.

  85. Thanks Dredd for more evidence in the audio recording of police comm.

    Did anyone catch what I did?

    The commander running this opn, had an outside person whom he was communicating with on the radio too. He said, ca “Please standby at the dispatch center.” That was clearly not an order, but a request as one is forced to do to be polite to agency reps from higher up.

    Why was this outsider able to hear what was goíng on and had probably own resources involved and own channels of command to his people on the ground at the school He also had a query channel to the local commander.

    This is obviously a joint operation or a combined one if you prefer.

    These are obvious minimum for running a mixed operation. The local commanders are fully trained to handle this sort of mixed op.

    Now the question is if the two suspects were detained as one 10-? suggests at least taking them down and securing them. Were they booked and as what? Doubtful. A code was given for release by the local commander but have not enough knowledge to discern it in the chatter on this common channel.

    There should have been a supervisor there at the school who could get immediate release on the spot otherwise.. Cameras are hard to control, with cells so common or arrival of some one eavesdropping on the channel. Lots of former Army troops voices heard. The jargon and comm. techniques suggest battle tested ones.

  86. “People put up with things to a point, and then they don’t any more.”

    And therein lies the root of every rebellion in human history.

    However, those “who see more than the media does in these massacres” need some proof. They are jumping at shadows. Like 9/11. Was there some suspect things about it? Yes there were, but the fringiest of the fringe conspiracy theorists never had enough proof that it was a false flag operation. The conjecture that it was a “fortuitous” event exploited by those who wanted to instigate a police state? I take no issue with that. It is both reasonable based on the evidence and in line with the espoused goals of PNAC and other neoconservative groups. It wasn’t magic. If you had been paying attention all along to groups like PNAC? I myself predicted in 1993 the coming century was going to see a concerted attack on civil and human rights under the guise of terrorism be it real or imaginary. But in this instance, as I pointed out, the potential downside if discovered of domestic involvement in perpetrating the mass murder of children would be a disaster of unexpected proportions for the government. A conspiracy here makes no sense from a potential conspirator point of view. It’s natural to try to make sense of the irrational by “filling in the gaps”, but it is also ignoring the reality that some bad events are simply irrational evil. Occam’s Razor still applies no matter how horrible the event is that you’re trying to cope with.

    Absent extraordinary evidence of an extraordinary claim of conspiracy in the Sandy Hook tragedy, the simplest solution is the most likely: a crazy b@stard, jealous of the perceived slight of his mother’s affections in favor of these children, went ballistic and did something really horrible. There is neither rhyme nor reason to his actions or the outcome. He was an irrational bad actor. Evil sometimes just happens. It is the tao of things.

  87. Calling a conspiracy student/analyst a conspiracy theorist is an old CIA (and supporters) trick to shut down or discredit someone.

    The U.S. Government said JFK’s assassination was a conspiracy, the Apollo Moon “landings” was a massive hoax and conspiracy (google Wagging the Moon Doggie), The U.S. version of 9/11 was an insane fairy tale and conspiracy theory, Osama died in 2001 — Obama (a CIA creature if there ever was one) didn’t kill him, RFK Malcolm X, MLK, and on and on : all
    conspiracies. Ditto Senator Wellstone, Anthrax, “Mission Accomplished (cough, cough) and to anyone who has taken the time to study the facts, and who knows how to THINK critically, this professor at Fl. Southern is almost surely “right on the money”.

    To the NPRers here: If you want to make someone mad – tell them a lie. If you want to make them FURIOUS, tell them the truth…just as the professor in Florida did.

    Are there any liberals here?

  88. Think of the victims and children. The final cover-up argument.

    Would they be harmed by a proper investigation with evidence released, as in Florida, and transcripts of all comm. channels?

    If so then the professor would have less to complain about media activity—his specialty. But seeing how it went with George vs Trayvon that is a slim hope. Who was blasted first and longest by the media? TRAYVON!

    I wonder by whom some are bought by. Or is it a closing of the ranks?
    Or closed minds.

    The audio got no comment. Wonder why the police supporters didn’t object?
    Too hot to handle? It was evidence. And not addressed. Is that lawyer-like? Yeah, never mind if it doesn’t support your claims, no matter which side you are on.

    Was Trayvon vs George a police conspiracy. Evidence says yes.
    Why not higher up leading the school operation.

    Listen to the tape. I have the advantage of listening to SW for 40 years as an operator daily. Listening to bad audio through QRM and QRN is difficult even for the trained ear.

  89. woody voinche1, January 9, 2013 at 10:29 am

    Two hollywood movies have been produced about Manchurian candidates one with Frank Sinatra and one with Danzel Washington…remember the CIAs MKULTRA and testing with LSD…????

    Check out Dr. Colin Ross’ Bluebird…

    http://www.amazon.com/Bluebird-Deliberate-Creation-Personality-Psychiatrists/dp/0970452519…

    Was it History Chanel that had a program that Sir Han Sir Han that suggested he was in a trance during his assassination of RFK?

    Woody I am a certified hypnotherapist. You cannot hypnotize someone to do anything that is abhorrent to them, morally repugnant, against their basic core values.
    The only way I can succeed helping you lose weight, stop smoking, etc is if you are motivated to make those changes. I cannot even help you to do that if you are coming to me because your wife wants you to stop smoking but you do not really want to make that change.
    Sadly there has been enough falsehoods and manipulations in media stories, such as the Ford trucks , that conspiracy theorists have some reality on which they can rely.
    I cannot imagine who would benefit from staging this travesty in Conn. or Aurora or elsewhere but even this kind of claptrap from someone who is supposedly educated and intelligent will find a media outlet and bring out his brethren,

  90. Before anyone starts calling Tracy a “nut” or “conspiracy theorist,” let’s look at some facts. You know, “facts,” those troublesome things that often get in the way of a good story.

    Has there been any investigation into the Sandy Hook crime? I mean a real investigation? Where all the key events leading up to it have been analyzed and explained? Has there been any forensic analysis to determine the weapons or weapons actually used to kill the victims? Has the media revealed or reported on the step-by-step events leading up to and including the crime? If you have closely followed the news and you try to answer these questions, you will honestly come to the conclusion that you know NOTHING about the events leading up the crime and the actual crime itself, other than the assertion that Lanza went “nuts” and purportedly took his mother’s guns and killed the victims at the school. That’s it. That’s ALL that you know.

    On the other hand, you know LOTS about all the actions being taken to address “Gun Control.” The political and media firestorm about that has been thorough and complete, and continues to be the central focus of the “news.”

    And, of course, you have the Sandy Hook murders coming shortly after the Aurora movie theater murders, purportedly committed by someone who has no memory of having committed those murders. So that must be a wild coincidence, or just a sign of our “crazy” times, right?

    A true investigator always looks at a key element of any crime: CUI BONO?. For you non-Latin folks out there, that means “Who benefits?”

    So yes, there is a common thread among the infamous crimes: Sandy Hook, Aurora, 911, JFK, MLK, RFK, etc. In each case, the government stands ready with a custom-made explanation which doesn’t comport with the evidence, or the government has produced no evidence and simply poses the explanation, ipse dixit. (Oops, sorry for the Latin again. Ipse dixit means unsupported statements.) The anomalies of 911, JFK, MLK, and RFK have already been explored to a considerable extent, and they remain problematic to this day.

    For example, did you know that the so-called “Patriot Act,” which was developed by the government in response to 911, was actually worked on by a team of lawyers specifically assigned to this task at least a year before the actual 911 attacks? The actual legal product was so long and detailed, that Congress signed off on it without even reading it. I know. Just another wild and crazy coincidence. But good thing that our thoughtful government had the FORESIGHT to assign the task of writing the Patriot Act to that team of lawyers before those evil criminals actually executed the complex 911 crime under the noses of all those government agencies. (And each individual in charge of those government operations that made the 911 crimes possible received promotions. Yes, promotions! That’s another troublesome fact, again. But who cares about facts.)

    But what about the common thread in Sandy Hook and Aurora?

    Gun Control, of course. The government stood ready with proposals to ban guns. When you’re in the process of installing a Police State, guns in the hands of the public can cause a lot of problems. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao certainly understood that. With Gun Control in place, as you’ll see in this famous sequence from Sergei Eisenstein’s great silent film, Battleship Potemkin (1925), governement can be so much more efficient and effective:

  91. Finbarr New 1, January 9, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    I would just like to point out that the original post contained this paragraph:
    “Tracy appears a full-time conspiracy theorist who has questioned the official account of the Kennedy assassination, the 9/11 terror attacks and the Aurora, Colo., movie theater massacre.”

    ==================================================
    Yes, the “full-time conspiracy theorist who has questioned the official account of the Kennedy assassination” is as lowly a scoundrel as are The Church Committee and the United States House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations:

    Their report concluded that the investigation on the assassination by FBI and CIA were fundamentally deficient and the facts which have greatly affected the investigation had not been forwarded to the Warren Commission by the agencies. It also found that the FBI, the agency with primary responsibility on the matter, was ordered by Director Hoover and pressured by unnamed higher government officials to conclude its investigation quickly. The report hinted that there was a possibility that senior officials in both agencies made conscious decisions not to disclose potentially important information.

    As a result of increasing public pressure caused partly by the finding of the Church Committee, the United States House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) was established in 1976 to investigate the assassinations of President Kennedy … The Committee investigated until 1978, and in 1979 issued its final report, concluding that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.

    (“The Wikipedia Innertubes“, emphasis added). As to the 9/11 thingy, the two co-chairs of the official 9/11 Commission have opined that they were lied to so much they referred it to the DOJ for perjury prosecutions, which led to nothing for some strange reason (wink, wink).

    There are thousands of professionals who have come out of the closet to publicly deride the official story (One Little Sample).

    Like criminal lawyers on the same defense team, they sometimes disagree with one another, but I think big brother knows this story is going to go the way of the Kennedy thingy, and the 9/11 thingy will be held to be a conspiracy in years to come.

    Even Gene H has opined that Saudi Arabia is involved up to their eyeballs, but as we know a s s h o l e s somehow get away with things everyday good citizens do not get away with.

    One has to wonder if the dood will abide. ;)

  92. And we should be impressed with this comedian’s routine because…
    he’s secretly a scholar who is a little-known historian with great credentials?
    or what?

  93. “What it really comes down to, Stewart concluded, is the fear of not being able to fight back against a theoretical tyrant like Mao, Stalin or Hitler. As evidence, he played a clip from Alex Jones’ widely circulated appearance on “Piers Morgan Tonight,” in which he warned of another American Revolution if anyone comes after his guns.

    He summarized the thinking of people like Jones this way: “Their paranoid fear of a possible dystopic future prevents us from addressing our actual dystopic present. We can’t even begin to address 30,000 gun deaths that are actually in reality happening in this country every year because a few of us must remain vigilant against the rise of imaginary Hitler.” LA Times

  94. bill,

    JFK? I’ll give a “maybe something there”. The magic bullet never passed the smell test. And having some experience with firearms and having seen the book depository window where the shots were allegedly taken, I’m sceptical Oswald did it let alone acting on his own.

    However, we’ve been to the moon. You can see the Apollo landing sites through a big enough telescope. The LRO took pictures of the landing sites. I’ve seen moon rocks. I’ve met Buzz Aldrin (albeit briefly) and I don’t think he’s a liar.

    However, you’re free to believe whatever you like. Even the lamest of the lame brained conspiracy theories like we haven’t been to the moon. I’ll stick to the evidence that we have. Of all the conspiracy theories you could have chosen to point to as having some validity, that one is probably one of the worst you could have referenced.

    Just because some conspiracy theories have merit does not mean all conspiracy theories have merit.

    Just like the one in the present case. Absent proof – either concrete or at least substantive enough to call other evidence into question – the idea has no merit. The primary reason being that no one gains from this event. There is no positive benefit to be reaped by any given group or individual.

  95. Excellent posts Dredd and Ralph – but I must remind you that the competition is tough, what with a “he said, he said” comedy routine that might have been written for “Dish House Dish” or “What uP with Dat?”.

  96. Thanks for the unsolicited pep talk, Gene H. I know that you must be a little starry eyed from having met the celebrity Buzz, but you didn’t have time, nor obviously the inclination, to read the voluminous, detailed evidence which
    proves the Apollo Moon hoaxes.

    What did Buzz tell you about the Van Allen Radiation belts? And, yes, I know the NASA propaganda lies about how they weren’t an obstacle to our fearless astronauts that are impervious to minor dangers that would kill anyone else.

    You just don’t know that you don’t know.

  97. Gene, I must tell you that the “magic bullet” did indeed exist. This magic bullet not only wounded Gov. John Connelly as well as JFK, but it also killed the career of Vaughn Meader, one of the fine comics of the 1960s:

  98. I think the people who have the wherewithal to arrange huge conspiracies that affect the country had no “dog in the race” for either the killing in Newtown or the media reporting of the real or imaginary killing in Newtown.

    That would make me guess that it was not a conspiracy.

  99. “but you didn’t have time, nor obviously the inclination, to read the voluminous, detailed evidence which proves the Apollo Moon hoaxes.”

    Volume and detail have noting to do with veracity.

    Actually I’ve probably read more of that crap than you have, bill. I used to tutor astronomy and every so often I’d get some fruit loop who thought the moon landings were a hoax. They weren’t.

  100. well, Gene, you just stay comfortably numb in your ignorance, and be glad to know that the world is full of people just like you.

  101. Cui bono?

    Those who do not want the people to be able to have assault rifles and other weapons to defend themselves should the military do what they say they have planned for a long time:

    A new report by the U.S. Army War College talks about the possibility of Pentagon resources and troops being used should the economic crisis lead to civil unrest, such as protests against businesses and government or runs on beleaguered banks.

    “Widespread civil violence inside the United States would force the defense establishment to reorient priorities in extremis to defend basic domestic order and human security,” said the War College report.

    The study says economic collapse, terrorism and loss of legal order are among possible domestic shocks that might require military action within the U.S.

    (The Homeland: Big Brother Plutonomy – 8). Just think how much tidier it would be not to have to kill all those people with weapons, and have them kill lots of the soldiers who are killing them.

    Cui bono?

    That is quite obvious, but that does not make it real.

    It makes it possible however, and so we must rid ourselves of that possibility … some, on both sides of the fence, will do it with wishful thinking … others on both sides of the fence … will delve into the matter and face the hard facts.

    Potential.

    Sometimes democracies have to remove the potential for tyranny because in a good nation there isn’t even the potential for it.

    In our nation dream on if you do not think that potential exists.

    Other nations know it does.

  102. Well, bill, I’ll stay comfortable in my knowledge of science truths but I’ll leave the scientific ignorance squarely on your shoulders where is rests. It is your burden to bear, not mine. “[H]e is injured who abides in his error and ignorance.”

  103. AMAZING, the skit some people are putting out. I won’t list them all. They are strangely familiar.

    Are some people afraid of legitimate conjecture and notations in the media as being an OCD perturbation on the part of a professor as a proof that conjecture based on research? (poorly formuated, but will have to do.

    Just some for now: ridicule, ad hominems, casting aspersions. quoting own email to the professor as proof, ridiculing those who holds opposing positions. using logic as proof when at this point logic has nothing to work on in terms of evidence, facile argumentations like stupidity, claiming superiority and authority on evidence not as yet presented (there of the professor’s expressed distrust of the media in its proven cooperation with the “authorities) questioning the motives of the professor, questing the validity of his research, and of his college, past and present.

    Not all bright minds come from Harvard and Yale. (We have Dubja)

    Is this a closing of the ranks again. You can rail at police here but not a lawyers (with some exceptions and even for some judges)

    Fun to see how self-profiling some “arguments” are as true revealers of many character traits.

    If I don’t trust the CIA, et al, then they have given ample evidence of the need.
    One is not paranoid for seeing evidence and recognizing its validity and use as a warning for being naive.

    Hope somebody challenges my take on the audio. Too bad I did not note the time of the kiss-ass request upwards, indicating outside involvement.
    But can give it by listening again. Might pick up some other clues too.

    Would John (?) post a link to the list of events showing involvements in human experiments on “in combat soldiers”, and many other innocent groups domestically, even whole cities and subway riders indiscriminately?

    Stick around this blog and one gets acquainted with the various BS techniques.

  104. Your knowledge of science is incomplete, else you would know the evidenced adduced in the link I provided to you and you would be able to refute it, and not just regurgitate NASA propaganda.

  105. bill,

    I’m simply not interested in playing your fruit loop lil’ moon hoaxer game. I got paid for doing it when I tutored. The moon hoaxer gibberish is irrelevant to the topic at hand other than to illustrate people will believe all manner of ignorant unscientific non-evidentiary nonsense.

  106. There is a very basic doctrine which is often violated in investigations.
    It was violated in Sweden by the Chief of the Police nationally, in the investigation of the assassination of our Prime Minister, on several occasions.

    This case and that concerning the murder of Trayvon Martin show the same faults.

    The rule is never to seize upon one of your favorite ideas, theories, etc..
    Keep an open mind is the rule.

    One wrote a book on this phenomena: “Rush to Judgement”, I believe.

    That the police do this is understandable, they feel the public pressure.
    The media happiness to grab the story as it first appears with police behind it is incredibly naive, or corrupt.

    The professor had good reasons to investigate this premise. And so should we. Stop giving away passes to the police.

    Or are you scared to find CIA or FBI behind this tragedy.

    Dredd is right. The kid could not do it unless he was completely deranged, trained, símply a used tool. At best he would have shot up the walls, but that has not shock value.

    “We need reasons to draw in guns.” Said by big O or other high´decider.
    “High risks for police and troops if resistance is offered.”

    Not ready to use gas, Not yet. That will come when events are manipulated (and you know that they are).

  107. “Or are you scared to find CIA or FBI behind this tragedy.”

    No. I want evidence they were involved and especially in light of the fact there is no upside for either party as instigators.

  108. “Police have said Mrs Lanza, 52, owned five legally registered guns, three of which her son carried with him.

    Mrs Lanza is thought to have trained her sons, Adam and Ryan to shoot, even taking them to local ranges.

    Friends and family have portrayed Mrs Lanza as a paranoid ‘survivalist’ who believed the world was on the brink of violent collapse.” The Independent. Adam Lanza was trained to shoot by his mother.

  109. Although a tragedy, in my home state, one must appreciate the bitter irony of a single mom teaching her sons how to shoot. It’s not all testosterone.

  110. So therefore it MUST have happened the way MSM said — with the proviso
    that since mom AND son were somehow both implicated, it was a conspiracy?

  111. I have been working most of the day and when I come back I find this thread now includes claims that the moon landing was a hoax and people lining up behind Prof. Tracy and his theory that 20 children may have been killed by the FBI or CIA or aided that one of the alphabet agencies was involved. And yet, like Tracy, not one item of real evidence has been presented. Yikes!

  112. GeneH,

    Two points:
    “Gene H.1, January 9, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    What you point to in the Biden article, Dredd, is evidence that the Executive thinks they can continue to run roughshod over the Constitution without the checks of Congressional approval. Why? Because we – and specifically a non-functional Congress – has let the unitary Executive expand without challenge since the Bush years. However, when it comes to the 2nd Amendment? I think Obama is going to find that imposing his will without the consent of the governed is going to be easier said than done.”

    Two problems with that.
    1) They have been doing this (they=executive branch) since how long?
    What does NDAA and all the other constitutional breachs by them do but confirm their disdain for the public, the press and their oath to defend and protect the big C.?
    2) Yeah, it may require some more CIA aided massacres to reach the level required to lull us into accepting his way.

    BTW, you forget the tax statute which opened in the 20th century for congress to make all sorts of laws, without previous requirements for amendment of the constitution to extend federal powers.
    Since there have been hundreds of laws superficially for taxation and the control thereof, which has given again and again new federal powers.
    You as a lawyer must know this.

    A document which revealed this to me has been linked several times by me here. (Awkward sentence—still learning)

    It is funny (not ha ha) to hear our constitutional defender, you, who tells us of massive concealed corporate conspiracies with our suppression as their goal, and then compare it to your defense of this investigation. Where did you stand on Martin vs Zimmerman. Are you consistent. Not trying to prove you wrong. Just askin’.

  113. Nighty night. 0130AM here. Gotta get my rest. doc’s orders. Coming here always makes me lose sight of that.

    Great blog Professor JT. A very divisive and defining one.

    I’ll try to catch up tomorrow. Long after now and not gaining on y’all.

  114. Idealist wrote”…The kid could not do it unless he was completely deranged, trained, símply a used tool”
    From all I have heard and read he was deranged and trained.

  115. reminds me of the movie “signs” when joaquin phoenix and the two kids are on the couch with tinfoil wrapped around their heads.

    stick a piece of paper in there and they’d look like hershey’s kisses

  116. id707,

    1a) The push for a unitary executive has been around since the Reagan years but it didn’t start getting serious traction until the Bush years. It’s at the core of the neocon/PNAC agenda.

    1b) So what’s your point? That there are those in government who don’t respect the Constitution? That is ancillary to whether or not any governmental body was instrumental in Sandy Hook.

    2) Supposition of a thing is not evidence of a thing. There is not even a rational basis for their taking such an action unlike the business connections between the Saudis and the Bush administration and their subsequent personally beneficial treasons based thereupon. There is no benefit to be gained from a CIA/FBI conspiracy to kill children. It’s not only an extraordinary claim to make, so far there has been no substantive evidence presented to support it.

    3) Taxation isn’t relevant to the current subject.

    4) Martin v. Zimmerman? To my knowledge the Martin’s have not filed suit against Zimmerman. If you mean State vs. Zimmerman then if there was a conspiracy there it was in the locals dragging their feet on charging Zimmerman under circumstances anyone else would have been charged but that was remedied by the media attention that forced their hand. I’m only tangentially interested in how the case plays out. My primary concern is that charges and a broader investigation be had given the circumstances. If you read back over the Zimmerman threads, you’ll find this to be my stance then as it is now.

  117. “From all I have heard and read…” That’s the problem. all you and people like gene h know is what MSM, Obama, NASA and other three letters people want you to know.

    If you want to be informed beyond the junk your Teevee tells you, you have
    to read a little and THINK. Otherwise, all you can do is spout platitudes, propaganda, and right-wing talking points ( even though you may claim to be a Liberal and a Obama supporter (oxymoron).

  118. Bill you need to read. I said all I have” … and READ”.
    The nice thing about this blog and democracy is that we can disagree. I feel that you want everyone to agree with you. Doesnt make for much of a conversation, debate, or process where thinking can actually occur. Because I may disagree with you it is not ipso facto, propaganda.

  119. Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.

    Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them.

    An example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. The mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting libidinal satisfaction by attaching, or ‘projecting,’ those same faults onto another person or object.”

    Say like someone with little education let alone science education blaming others for not believing his fruit loop theories about the moon landings being a hoax.

  120. what? we didnt go to the moon? how could you keep that a secret?

    most all of these conspiracy theories are without merit, if 2 people know, the secret is going to get out. Especially in DC, some one knows and the truth will always come out.

    I could have shot kennedy with that rifle at that distance. it was only a couple of hundred feet and he had an optical sight.

  121. Swarthmore Mom: You raise the precise ipse dixit “explanations” for Sandy Hook that I spoke of in my post that establish that we really know NOTHING about what really happened. Here is what you report that we “know’:
    ————
    “Police have said Mrs Lanza, 52, owned five legally registered guns, three of which her son carried with him.

    Mrs Lanza is thought to have trained her sons, Adam and Ryan to shoot, even taking them to local ranges.

    Friends and family have portrayed Mrs Lanza as a paranoid ‘survivalist’ who believed the world was on the brink of violent collapse.” The Independent. Adam Lanza was trained to shoot by his mother.
    ————
    Okay, let’s examine what you’ve reiterated from sources, one by one:

    Where is the investigation of these 5 legally registered guns? What are their serial numbers? Where and when were they purchased, and by whom? Without details, those statements about “legally reisgered guns” are just say-so. The details would show that the matter was, in fact investigated. But we have no details. An ipse dixit statement means nothing, which is all that we’ve got here.

    Next, you point out that “Mrs. Lanza is THOUGHT to have trained her sons.” (Emphasis added.) But as Hamlet put it, “there is nothing either good or
    bad, but thinking makes it so.” I don’t want mysterious “thoughts” from so-called “investigators,” I want facts, details, and evidence. But what about facts? What shooting range did Mrs. Lanza go to, and where did she train her sons? What records are there are such visits to shooting ranges? When did she or they go to the range? Any eyewitnesses?

    Never heard anything about that? Nope. Just more ipse dixit and speculation.

    Finally you reiterate that “Friends and family have portrayed Mrs. Lanza as a paranoid ‘survivalist.’ ” Really? What friends? What family members? What incidents, statements, or circumstances led those purported “friends” and “family members” to allege such conclusions? Have any of those alleged incidents, statements, or circumstances been investigated or confirmed in any way? Nope.

    The bottom line is that you and I know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about what really happened. You and I know the official “explanation,” but that means nothing.

    The only thing we know for sure is that our ever-alert government has the magic bullet–so to speak–or the “solution” to this unexplained and uninvestigated crime: Gun Control.

    The media has spent much time on the tragedy of Sandy Hook and the government “solution,” but it has spent ZERO TIME investigating the facts. It only parrots what the official government lines are, which are ipse dixitisms, not facts, not evidence, and certainly not the results of a professional investigation. The need for all of those important details have been conveniently forgotten by the media. Unfortunately, they have also been forgotten by the public.

    You are a victim of misdirection. The government and the media have played a magic trick for you, and you are not looking at what’s really going on. You are spoonfed ipse dixitism by the media and they repeat them over and over, and you conclude that they, therefore, must be true. But as the great Herman Mankiewicz script from Citizen Kane says, “If the headline is big enough, it makes the new big enough.” But do not confuse headlines and yellow journalism with facts, evidence or reality.

  122. The crazies have been coming out of the woodwork since the Aurora, CO shooting, and the Sandy Hook school shooting only made it worse.

    As for the JFK shooting, I recently watched a documentary by a forensic team of experts. The team assembled were expert in a variety of areas of forensic science. They recreated the events as shown on the Zapruder film, frame by frame. They used lasers and computer modeling. They built a tower for the sniper and used a vehicle. Angles, distance, height and speed were factored in. The so called magic bullet was not magic at all, as the laser and computer simulation showed. Also, Oswald was a Marine trained expert marksman, and in the weeks before the shooting, he was known to have been at local rifle ranges burning through a lot of ammunition.

  123. “The so called magic bullet was not magic at all, as the laser and computer simulation showed.”

    Now that I’d like to see, OS. That’s always been my sticking point was that the original explanation: it was bad physics. If someone would show me a good physics explanation, I’d be satisfied. I saw one recreation where they discounted the grassy knoll shooter but they presupposed hollow points which are far more destructive than a solid bullet to discredit that idea. Not exactly through. My only problem with Oswald as a shooter was the number of shots. Not impossible, just fancy shooting. Given the general level of paranoia about Communists with the FBI under Hoover? If there was anything to a governmental conspiracy angle, they may have known Oswald was an agent, maybe even what his plans were, and decided to do nothing about it. That I’d believe. As to the CIA/mob angle? I’m not sure mob would have had the balls to do that with Hoover mucking about. Or the CIA for that matter. Even if it helped him having JFK out of the way, he’d have used anything he could to excuse his rather legally lax methods in pursuing the mob and that would have been a great excuse. As for the CIA? If Hoover found out about it, his ruthlessness would have probably made him more than inclined to use it as leverage against the CIA.

    I have greater issues with the assassination of MLK. There’s no way James Earl Ray made it to London on his way to Rhodesia on a forged Canadian passport without help. He was a dim-witted small time fraudster, sneak thief and burgler. I don’t doubt he pulled the trigger, but he had help. He wasn’t smart enough or savvy enough to plan let alone execute that kind of attempted flight from prosecution.

  124. “Here’s a comment I posted on Professor Tracey’s site. It is awaiting moderation. If it sees the light of day and if I get a reply, I’ll advise:”

    ****************************

    Darn. Professor James didn’t post my questions. Guess he.s still working on the answers.

  125. Gene,
    Agreed on MLK. That whole affair as Ray being a solo practitioner does not pass the smell test. He probably was the shooter, but I am convinced he had help. Too many things do not compute, as you point out.

    I don’t remember what channel I saw that documentary on. I think it was the Military Channel.

    As for Oswald and the rifle, he was a well trained marksman. The Marines rated him as a sharpshooter, twice achieving 48 and 49 out of 50 shots during rapid fire at a stationary target at 200 yards. That 6.5 mm Carcano rifle was given a bad press. It was an excellent rifle for its time, and has a history of being very accurate at shorter ranges. Given the time Oswald reportedly spent on the range, by that time the gun would have been like an extension of his hand and eye.

    From Wikipedia: “Many of CBS’s 11 volunteer marksmen, who (unlike Oswald) had no prior experience with a properly “sighted” Carcano, were able to hit the test target two times in under the time allowed. The only man who scored three hits was a firearms examiner from Maryland by the name of Howard Donahue.”

  126. So far we’ve talked about all these conspiracy theories and moon shot denials and nobody yet has come forward about being abducted by aliens.

    It’s a bit disappointing.

  127. Darren:

    Don’t get me started! You see, I was asleep in bed when a bright green light shown through the window ….

  128. I have no idea what that Hershey’s Kisses video means in connection with this thread. So I’ll present you, instead, with a clip from the late Bill Hicks, one of the very last of the great rebel comedians. (Perhaps the best known rebel comedians in recent years was the late George Carlin, whom I’ve had the pleasure of seeing perform several times. Thankfully, one of the best of the original rebel comedians, Mort Sahl, is still among the living–though he obviously doesn’t perform much these days.)

    Very few, if any, comedians other than Bill HIcks have successfully used the JFK assasination as a subject of comedy. Even Sahl, who made the real JFK investigations by independent researchers and the pseudo-investigations by the Warren Commission part of his act, found it difficult to make the assasination material funny–although, perhaps, he was just too early to cover it, and too close to the shocking event itself.)

    At any rate, here’s a clip–appropriate to this discussion–from the brilliant, sardonic, and edgy comedian, Bill Hicks, who manages to draw laughs from one of the darkest moments in American history:

  129. MikeS,

    An interesting and deeply nuanced view.

    Having been in practice paranoid (due to not trusting anyone at any point) I know only too well how it poisons you.
    Especially in contrast to my situation now.

    However, there is also the instinct to guard yourself from harm.
    And with a view to the existence of real conspiracies and our need thus to not take things on face value, but rather ask oneself: Am I considering likely alternatives? How sure am I? This need remains, but to what extent? Until it poisons your life? Hopefully not.

    I have thus had a open mind for such possibilities of realizing the need for trust, at least a few moments in my life.

    My Kerstin said she never bothered with thinking of things of which she could not effect the outcome.. And she was a smart and effective fighter for her principles at work.

    PS She also said that she had never regretted anything in her life. Try that those who can.

  130. MikeS.

    Aber—–considering the alleged establishment of Facebook etc pages being established on the 11th and the event on the 13th is disturbing. Can the establishment page be truthfully discerned afterwards (hacker effect).

    Also a close listen to the aufio of police com showing deference to an unnamed higher echelon official cause me to question if there was outside help to the massacre.

    The factual observations but not proven of fleeing persons being detained and their disposition not revealed awakens worry.

    The ability to question and to evaluate is critical to our survival.
    “Is that the dried grassing moving in the gusty wind, or is it a lion?”, says the gnu. And then continues to feed.

    Considering as you have the known conspiracies, why should we not see them as arranged events for the purpose to required registration of all guns for the purposes of taxation, and whose ultimate purpose has been well-discussed.

    I will stay with the last explanations of conspiracy to form political effect.

    Consider the involvement of banks in the centrally coordinated effort to block and discourage by violence the OWS forces. Is that not a conspiracy, and at a lower level than the CIA,

    That does it for me on the CIA involvement, at least worth a suspicion.
    And a thorough public investigation focused from the start on only one person invollved. Stinks to me.

  131. GeneH,

    Thanks for some good questions.
    I’ll reply facetiously but mostly seriously.

    I have made the interpretation that the nature and duration of the Benghazi raid spoke for its origin as a USA special ops, often retained by CIA (fact).
    The motive was for the political effect as an “October Surprise”, much like the original one dealt to Carter when fighting Reagan. In the Carter case, it must seem only fair that Ollie North and others who gained from Iran/Contra moneys (CIA black ops).

    As to the motive for CIA involvement as at least coordinating Special Ops troops is not insane if we look at the motive which the public reaction which you have also noted. That is to say, the political push caused by Sandy Hook to overcome the resistance to gun control by executive action.
    Frankly I believe a law will be necessary based on interstate commerce regulation for the purposes of establishment of who owes the guns to be taxed.

    Hope my subsequent comments help also in clarifying my views.

    Domestic undercover operations performed by the CIA and or FBI are
    routine, or do you not believe that?

    As to my sources, I never reveal them. :-)

  132. “In the Carter case, it must seem only fair that Ollie North and others who gained from Iran/Contra moneys (CIA black ops), IS NOW ESTABLISHED BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT..

  133. Perhaps a partial reply: No taxation schema would require the killing of children by any agency. There is no benefit yet demonstrated, real or theoretical, to anyone from the Sandy Hook episode.

  134. Can anyone come up with a benefit to any person or agency for instigating the domestic killing of children by a governmental agency that merits the risk of repercussions upon discovery?

    Conspiracies are committed for substantive benefit to the conspirators.

  135. Yes indeedy. Good thinking, GeneH.

    But with well prepared conspiracies including control of info flow, media messages, and the investigation and report processes gives assurance that the resulit will be that aspired to by the conspirators. Plus a proven assault team, professional supervision and control of the on-ground process futher diminishes the risk of exposure. See again my comments on 9/11 which went down the internet hole but had a copy this time to repost.
    Thus it addresses an earlier comment by you.

    In this case the payoff is to nullify the resistance to gun control.

  136. GeneH.

    “Like 9/11. Was there some suspect things about it? Yes there were, but the fringiest of the fringe conspiracy theorists never had enough proof that it was a false flag operation.”=============-´GeneH.

    There are responsible organizations who have established facts different from the official ones. For ex. architects and engineers with various specialties have proven that it reasonably could not solely be an effect of the plane crashes. There are disclosed facts that at least indicate that American businessmen, some with Bush connections were involved or forewarned. Jeb Bush’s company was solely responsible for security and access control 24/7. The building owner increased his insurance policy repayment and coverage days in advance.

    Nor could the involvement of Al Quada nor Saudi Arabia suffice.
    So many revealed and confirmed facts are available to prove American involvement at high levels.

    One of many is our response. The air force defenxe got stand down orders. Why? The many other planned for measures which were not used.
    Cheney sat in his chair, being apprised by air defense on the approaching aircraft destined for the Pentagon. On queries from them as to taking down the plane/aircraft with SAMs, he replied negative to all such queries.

    How is that explained? Certainly not by the official investigation report—a put up job as was the Warren one.

  137. GeneH.

    “…Occam’s Razor still applies no matter how horrible the event is that you’re trying to cope with.

    Absent extraordinary evidence of an extraordinary claim of conspiracy in the Sandy Hook tragedy, the simplest solution is the most likely: a crazy b@stard,…..”

    Well after telling us that you discerned how terror would be used to motivate taking away of our civil rights, you seem to neglect that even these measures require extraordinary and complicated and directed by conspiracy—-as all politics are. Occam’s razor applies to nature, always look for the simplest. But not in a nation of 300 million and using the uncertain method of politics requires even complicated conspiracies.

    Actually you know full well as I that all that is visible issuing from political sources including Congress and the Executive are results of conspiracies.

    The duopolitical system is the result of one conspiracy. And you could give many other very complicated ones to exemplify that “theory”.of conspiracy.

  138. “In this case the payoff is to nullify the resistance to gun control.”

    Insufficient benefit for cost/risk and could be accomplished by other means. Discovery still means sufficient cause for risk of open rebellion (as in it would be open season on Federal employees). Even in terrorism (which this kind of tactic would be pure terrorism) the benefit must outweigh both the costs and the risk of failure (in this case discovery would count as a failure scenario). The proposed benefit does not outweigh the costs and potential risk and could be accomplished by other less damaging and risky means.

    In re 9/11, there is still no credible sufficient evidence of a false flag operation but rather circumstantial evidence that the attack may have been known and allowed to happen – which is not the same thing as a false flag attack. Both are despicable, but one scenario is not the other.

  139. “Occam’s razor applies to nature, always look for the simplest. But not in a nation of 300 million and using the uncertain method of politics requires even complicated conspiracies.”

    Gibberish. Occam’s Razor applies to the triage of all scenarios under critical scrutiny in any system. Unnecessary complexity breeds error. That’s one of the reasons the idea of moon hoaxers is so ridiculous – the complexity of endemic to the scale of the conspiracy required to pull such a thing off dooms it to failure (revelation) from the start. Even though a conspiracy to kill school kids could be accomplished with less complexity, it still simply does not pass the cost/benefit analysis when the risk of failure is so high as to be an instigation of rebellion.

    Paranoia is not a substitute for good planning practices. There is nothing about a conspiracy by an alphabet agency to kill children that passes the scrutiny of a cost/benefit and risk analysis.

  140. GeneH,

    You are the leader due legitimate factors, and you have many on this thread who agree with their variant of your ideas.

    So here is an question based on reading Russ Baker’s book (MikeS reviewed and I am now reading a few pages at a time): Warning! the question may be offensive and provoking, but with a view to the books revelations, it is motivated.

    Do you have some connection, now or formerly with the CIA or loosely put the intelligence apparati of this country???????

    Once company, always company. Many have been CIA fronts and misinformers. Newsweek even gave cover to CIA covert officers. as legit reporters who can be expected to pop up just anywhere and have open motives for asking questions.
    Washington Post gave one year training to someone with proven intelligence background at top military level (aide to admiral in charge of intelligence in the Navy). The same person was in place at the Post watching the pages rolling in, having established Washington crime as his territory. He carefully controlled the media message, including some exclusive news which “rocked the nation”

    Have you guessed his name? Read what Wike has to say.

    “Relying heavily upon anonymous sources, Post reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein uncovered information suggesting knowledge of the break-in, and attempts to cover it up, led deep into the Justice Department, the FBI, the CIA, and the White House.”============Wikepedia Watergate Scandal.

    And then check to see who was the Admiral’s PR person and aide.
    And who was the non-qualifier who was engaged as the trainee and agent for the CIA. Your job now to decide which of the two it was.

    So my fellow persons, I have used one of the ulimate tools of the trade.
    Cast into disrepute the reps of those who oppose my game.

    Fellow conspiracy theorists, Unite, we have nothing to lose except our lives, reputations, and fill in the rest yourself.

  141. “Do you have some connection, now or formerly with the CIA or loosely put the intelligence apparati of this country?”

    Nope. But thanks for the laugh. I’m the last kind of person they’d hire. They like obedience without question and a willingness to “tow the company line”. Me? Not so much.

  142. Me again.

    The perps don’t even have to be crazy or hypnotize but the CIA has pursued for years to find a suitable drug.
    But the FBI uses daily, all over the country, techniques of entrapment of those who lean the right way. Giving instruction by an undercover officer on how to make pipe bombs for example. Later convicted for terror deeds (averted of course). How to build your rep, your record and convince all who are in the loop of their capability to building a case against self’-identified “enthusiats”.

  143. Again, paranoia is not a substitute for good planning practices. There is nothing about a conspiracy by an alphabet agency (or an individual agent) to kill children that passes the scrutiny of a cost/benefit and risk analysis.

  144. “My Kerstin said she never bothered with thinking of things of which she could not effect the outcome.. And she was a smart and effective fighter for her principles at work.”

    ID707,

    You’ve answered your own question. I am convinced that JFK was murdered as a part of a conspiracy at high levels. However, I will never be in the position of bringing anyone to justice for it, so I just take it as a give and move on. I also do believe that we humans should have a healthy level of paranoia. For instance I live in a gated, secure community and the possibility of a home invasion is remote. Yet not owning a gun I have already gone over several effective counter-measures to that remote possibility, just to keep them in the back of my mind ready to use. This has proven to me, by experience, to be an effective life saving measure.

    For instance, about 26 years ago while walking across a wide boulevard, lost in thought, I noticed a speeding Chevy Camaro about to hit me, I dove onto its low hood and was bounced off to the side, with some scraps and a torn ligament as my only damage. Years before I had seen James Bond do that same maneuver in a movie and at that time I tucked it away in memory as a potential strategy if I was ever faced with a car about to hit me. That piece of memory, recalled in an instant, in the right moment probably saved my life.

    As I’ve pointed out though, in my comments on this thread, paranoia while practical must be controlled or it takes over your life. I prefer not living in fear of a dire unknown, that my all too fertile imagination could dream up in a neurotic way to frighten me.

  145. “Considering as you have the known conspiracies, why should we not see them as arranged events for the purpose to required registration of all guns for the purposes of taxation, and whose ultimate purpose has been well-discussed.”

    ID707,

    That I acknowledge there are conspiracies does nothing to increase or decrease the likelihood of there being one in this case. Let us analogize by using a phenomena we have seen for four years. Certain people in this country were so horrified that a Black man became President that they pored over every possible inconsistency to prove he was not a native born
    American. Even after he produced a birth certificate they continued to deny it and nit pick it in every possible way. Their purpose was really to de-legitimize a situation that they mentally found intolerable and they’re still going on with this nonsense because they are unable to accept the central fact of this man’s Presidency.

    Sandy Hook presented a horrid situation for those people who are attached to guns. It resonated with the American people because children were the prime victims. It so stunned the pro-gun people, its situation so hard to reasonably refute, that it became natural to parse every bit of evidence in order to maintain and defend their most fervent beliefs. Thus what was in essence a tragedy, made all the more horrible by its senselessness, had to be blamed on something other than weaponry. Many pro gun people are also anti-Obama people and have suspected him, with little evidence of trying to take their guns away. Just as they’ve suspected him of being a Muslim, Fascist, Communist, Terrorist born in Africa.

    Their theory of this being a government conspiracy to disarm us doesn’t pass my smell test. Too convoluted a plan would be needed to effectuate the results that are feared. The final gun control plan, if any indeed passes, will be so watered down as to be ineffective. This is because there are too many Democratic legislators coming from pro-gun areas, who will not risk the wrath of their voters. Just because “conspiracies” are and always have been real, doesn’t mean that “Everything” is a conspiracy. That there are discrepancies in the reports coming out of this tragedy reflect merely the fact that such emergent situations are rarely easy to pin down. Aren’t our own lives really like that too? We humans lead a chaotic existence and our brains are wired to developed a coherent narrative of that chaos. People investigating and reporting upon chaos often are inconsistent in their work.
    I find it hard enough at times making sense of my own life and so does everyone else.

  146. “Prominent legal scholar Jonathan Turley wrote in his blog of Tracy’s theories, “For those mourning the loss of the 20 children and six adults, it was both an outrageous and hurtful claim — leading many to call for the firing of Tracy. However, as correctly noted by the FAU administration, this was a personal blog and Tracy has every right to espouse such theories.”” (from the following article)

    http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/local_news/water_cooler/james-tracy-sandy-hook-controversy-newtown-official-says-fau-professor-should-be-fired

    BOCA RATON, Fla. — The top elected official in Newtown, Conn., has called on Florida Atlantic University to fire communication professor James Tracy over his assertions that last month’s school massacre of 20 children and six adults may not have happened.

    In an emailed comment, Newtown First Selectman E. Patricia Llodra called Tracy an “embarrassment” to FAU and all educators for espousing what she called “his outlandish conspiracy theories.”

    “Shame on you, too, FAU, to even have someone like this on your payroll,” wrote Llodra, a former teacher. “I can assure you, sadly, that the events here in Newtown unfolded exactly as are being reported, with the horrible outcome of the violent death of 26 innocent people, including 20 children.”

    A Monday story in the Sun Sentinel in which Tracy discussed his views went viral and touched off a firestorm of controversy. While many callers and emailers defended or even applauded Tracy’s remarks, others, including current and former FAU students, said they found his theories outrageous and offensive.

    In response to the outcry, FAU president Mary Jane Saunders on Wednesday issued a statement seeking to further distance the Boca Raton school from the tenured professor’s opinions.

    “I want to make it clear that those views and opinions are not shared by Florida Atlantic University, and I am personally saddened by any media stories that have added to the pain felt by the victims’ families,” said Saunders. “FAU joins the entire nation and people around the world in feeling profound grief for the lives lost on that awful day.”

    In several posts on his memoryholeblog.com, Tracy, 47, suggests the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary may have been an event staged with hired actors and orchestrated by the Obama Administration to promote gun control.

    Prominent legal scholar Jonathan Turley wrote in his blog of Tracy’s theories, “For those mourning the loss of the 20 children and six adults, it was both an outrageous and hurtful claim — leading many to call for the firing of Tracy. However, as correctly noted by the FAU administration, this was a personal blog and Tracy has every right to espouse such theories.”

    (FAU is in Boca Raton.)

  147. MikeS,

    Thanks so very much for your well-reasoned, analytical and eloquent comment expanding on your ideas so as to help me, and through me others here who cling to the conspiracy alternative as just an unchecked alternative.
    Hope that is better than my usual incoherent style. No irony intended.
    And I feel it is almost hubris to reply, but shall to celebrate our free speech here at JT’s. Long intro! Get on with it, they ask.

    When countering the claim of conspiracy as being the answer when done at high levels, requires extraordinare evidence (you or GeneH or both), or simply shrugging and moving on after accepting as probable the JFK conspiracy, after all Congress said so in both houses (you), I would instead be more inclined to be suspicious and look for hidden motives, especially polital ones supporting the movement towards a police state (are we not there already?).
    And pleading for a presentation of facts, as in Trayvon Martin, is not too much to ask.

    I think that the opposition to Obama, so as not to dwell on it for now, is irrelevant here. That the gun owners are afraid is understandable considering our national police states and ambitions theretill. And using pressure on Congress from their electorate is no news here.
    Is the NRA and the loosely called gun nuts right. Time will tell.

    But the relevant point is that this tragedy provided practically support from all parents, etc. Such is not easily accomplished.
    But neither was getting Americans to exchange their civil rights via Patriot Act etc for a bowl of security gruel., which BTW was never delivered. We have been isolated from wars’ direct effect on civil populations that the shock was enormous.
    Here in Europe and the ME not so much. Here all have experienced the horrors of war, hence Sweden’s cowardly manner of hiding behind nominal neutrality and lofty words.

    To be continued immy. See below.

  148. MikeS,

    I could not in my attention to your arguments and my reply, recall where you had posted that which I was replying to.
    I had routinely scrolled to the bottom from a new started copy, which when net problems occur means starting at the first comment. That in order to see if the thread is still active after a day’s being away. Searching after yours I scrolled too rapidly upwards and found this to take exception to from earlier. Just shows how far I am from keeping up.
    =========
    “……I’ve seen has convinced me of the truth of some of these suspicions, I not only don’t mentally dwell upon conspiracy, but make a conscious effort not to do so. This isn’t dichotomy, nor is it denial, it is merely the best mentally healthful course to take. Other than openly advocating my thinking, which I’ve done here at times,
    I know I lack the power to rectify anything and don’t believe in futile gestures.
    Paranoia and suspicion poisons ones social interactions and life.
    =============MikeS

    What you say is true, but also ultimately a matter of sound mental condition vs survival fitness. Stressing happy pigs as they are led to slaughter produces sour tough pork. Bad. Are we to be happy non-stressed pigs, or humans cooperating in fighting our police state and its highly effective methods hidden behind the curtain of court approved (so far) secrecy for national security reasons.
    It may well be futile, and I don’t devote much time now to such suspicions.

    So I also appreciate being a happy pig now. In spite of my argument above. It should be advanced by younger persons who have more to lose than I. Mine is not the future and expect to leave no monument except a gravestone which has 25 years limited occupancy unless living relatives wish to oppose otherwise. (TMI)

    Let me complete my picture of Kerstin. She in her early career was chosen by the union to represent them in the “superboard”, which is a financial guarant guarding the publics interest in a multi-product insurance company, higher than the responsibility of the ordinary board responsible for the company interests and sound practices.

    She thus had several occasions to eat dinner and hobnob socially with the absolute top industry leaders in Sweden and was regarded with respect in spite of her age and her gender..
    She went further in her social engagement and considered acceptance of an invitation to campaign as community alderman.

    She presumably then found this not possible for reasons of time and decided to concentrate on her career. Right choice? Who knows?

    The point being that one has a choice to pursue ideals with dim chance of fulfilllment in the uncertain and full of conspiracy political arena.
    She chose the career path. To both contentment and the opposite. Such is life. Making a choice is important.

    MIkeS, you chose for various reasons, some of deep empathy and compassion for the poor, to pursue your career on your path to alleviate suffering, which did not ultimalely lead to wealth to you, which you could have chosen.

    Where is the balance point between a contented life and one soured by suspicion?

    We jointly through laws establish agencies to protect our interests as citizens, so as to assign the need for watchfulness with greater competence to them, and thus be content with grazing while others keep guard.
    We know now after many revelations that they do not do their duty.
    So how can we relax when the watchdogs are well-fed and locked in the kennel, thus not patrolling looking for crooked companies looking to effectvely fool us and render useless our guard dogs.

    To Be cóntinued.

  149. Energizer Bunny is back

    No. 12A606
    Title:
    Edward Noonan, et al., Applicants
    v.
    Deborah Bowen, California Secretary of State
    Docketed: December 13, 2012
    Lower Ct: Supreme Court of California
    Case Nos.: (S207078)
    ~~~Date~~~ ~~~~~~~Proceedings and Orders~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Dec 11 2012 Application (12A606) for a stay, submitted to Justice Kennedy.
    Dec 13 2012 Application (12A606) denied by Justice Kennedy.
    Dec 26 2012 Application (12A606) refiled and submitted to The Chief Justice.
    Jan 9 2013 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of February 15, 2013.
    Jan 9 2013 Application (12A606) referred to the Court.

  150. GeneH,

    “I really seriously doubt absent some extraordinary evidence that the CIA had any involvement in Sandy Hook. It doesn’t make sense from an intel ops point.”—–GeneH

    Yes it does if you are have some gain which TPTB regard as essential and must involve careful controlled risks, with many ways to cover your political ass if the painted picture begins to start to crumble. If there is a way, the risk will be weighed and will taken, especially if steering this nation of conflicting interest is needed to effect change and acceptance of radical ones. Now it is getting control of the guns, in spite of some readings of the 2nd amendment..

    Pros don’t phuck up, witness Watergate (it was CIA arranged and oontrolled by discontents led by HW Bush, then RNC chief, Ironic yes.

    So do the risks assockiated with JFK, RFK,, MLK, and recently the ultimate shock driving us before it, the 9/11 deeds. Great planning, great use of power to steer the exercise of the deed in real time: witness Cheney’s coldly watching the approaching aircraft (did not say pax plane) with real time reports lasting over 20 minutes, and never unleashing our SAM defenses of the Capital.

    It is all amazing, but practices proven overseas (Iran Contra) were tested here beginning at least as early as Kennedy—although the assassinations predate Iran/Contra by several years. Assassination is routine practice with regard to and of foreign state’s chiefs, since the 19th century, long before CIA’s creation.

    Even its name is a misnomerr: Central Intelligence Agency.

    They gather no intelligence other than from open sources. Embassy placed officers are useless. And undercover agents are like chicken teeth, in spite of Congressional funds in the billions for that expressed purpose after 9/11.

    I actually don’t know if any of the foreign or domestic deeds can be ascribed to the CIIA, in view of their risk avoidance strategy. There might be a secret, very secret military group, willing to take risks and succeed, All this from Ishmael Jones’ book; Human Factors.

  151. “Yes it does if you are have some gain which TPTB regard as essential and must involve careful controlled risks, with many ways to cover your political ass if the painted picture begins to start to crumble.”

    That’s what you are missing here. Discovery isn’t just a matter of embarrassment in a scenario like this. It would literally start a rebellion. There is no damage control effective enough to play CYA with should government involvement in instigation be discovered. None. The idea that Sandy Hook is a governmental conspiracy is massively unrealistic and paranoid. There is no upside great enough to cover the risk. Appealing to some nebulous “powers that be” is just about as rational as blaming it on the Devil and it isn’t a valid rationale from an intel ops standpoint. There is nothing to gain intelligence-wise, gun control could be attempted by many less riskier strategies and the downside is nation changing in a way that “the powers that be” would not want; namely, it would become open season on government employees high and low and a lot of angry armed citizens would be looking to take that shot – so many that no security would be effective and in fact they’d have to worry about their own security turning on them.

    ‘I actually don’t know if any of the foreign or domestic deeds can be ascribed to the CIIA, in view of their risk avoidance strategy. There might be a secret, very secret military group, willing to take risks and succeed,”

    And there might be a magic monkey assassination squad who uses poisoned cheeses and combat teleportation as their weapons of choice. A claim without proof is useless supposition at best and mind destroying paranoia at worst.

  152. “Where is the balance point between a contented life and one soured by suspicion?”

    ID707,

    For Kerstin is was her career, over that of politics. She seems to have been a good person. Write me offline if you’d like to discuss her more with me I would be interested.

    For me the choices I made were quite conscious. I was seriously offered paths that would have led me to wealth and turned them down preferring to go my own way. I was very good at politics and might have made a career there, but it didn’t seem like fun to me. My choices were conscious ones and I don’t regret them.

    Now what this has to do with this thread is this. This professor has chosen to pursue certain theories of his as a career choice. His dedication is in some ways estimable, but his problem appears to be seeing conspiracies everywhere. Umberto Eco in “Foucault’s Pendulum” novelistic-ally describes this mindset with brilliance. Tracy appears to have gotten to the point where he sees conspiratorial behavior everywhere. Also add to this SwM’s link that Tracy was a pro-gun advocate and his paranoia was heightened by his predilection.

  153. GeneH and MikeS,

    “And this statement I agree with without reservation: “I believe the inconsistencies we see are not the result of some plot being hidden, but the simple expression of our mass media and of our officialdom
    trying to present a coherent narrative out of what was an incoherent and insane tragedy.” ===========attributtal to both commenters.

    Yes, and what would be the benefit to the public of that. Media loves scandals with unknown causes to speculate on. Care of the victims is not the case. Some in their denial and discontent will never accept the official picture painted. And some times having an effect, even leading to Congressonal investigations and reports, but no effective accountability costs.

    The CIA under guise of contacting foreign businessmen and foreign studients as possible agents to recruit has been operating in a wide spread net of offices all across the USA. They do nothing in these offices but provide desks for CIA trainees waiting for a never-coming overseas assignment as an undercover agent, or being transformed into a drone warming a seat until retirement. The only reports generated are standard lies of deeds accomplished. And the publlic is not informed, and the only opposition is when a rare external op phucks up an FBI op.

    If you don’t know this, then read Ishmael’s book or one of the many other CIA books. There are countless and they apparently have their readers.
    Conspiracy nuts. Nah. Just those who don’t trust their “government”, and who does. Not either of you.

    Does anyone die from an incoherent story? No one.

    It is only democracy and truth that die. A very steep price for the pigs, ie us who wish to be calmed and continue to munch our gruel. Is gruel enough for us. After centuries of placid eating it would appear so. Only the hungry ones protest, starved for freedom. And that happens all too seldom for effective defense against the powers that be, even the contenders agree on the ultimate goal—-control and the baubles to display to your ilk. Playing the game and always advancing is the goal in itself.

  154. PS

    This is a Herculean task and the hour is late here. Must remember my priority now is curing/controlling my heart. So will rest for now.

    As MikeS so wisely said, if it is futile then why bother. That while true for each of us, is one of the hopes that the government and corporations cherish.

    Please Dog, let the prols/pigs realize it and go eat the crumbs we provide.

    But why are we here now? If it is futile? Tell me ¨please GeneH and MikeS.

    MikeS fought for years, and reasonably so did GeneH. Doesn’t seem like you have felt futile before, or who knows, perhaps many times

    Again, why are we here? To hear opinions similar to ours. Or a higher purpose?

  155. Obviously, I am Cretan layperson however;

    There are too many discrepancies in this ‘story’. From my understanding of our Governments’ machinations we have:

    JFK (Back and to the left) in which I DO NOT BELIEVE the magic bullet theory as presented in the Warren Report, MKUltra, Project Monarch, Project Paperclip, Operation Northwoods, REX 84, Gulf of Tonkin Incident, Nurse Naryriah, Iraqi mobile weapons laboratories, Yellow Cake, 911 and it’s ties to Pakistani ISI along with most Foreign Intelligence Services informing/warning us that ‘something’ was going to happen, Tuskegee syphilis experiments, various installed dictators and fascistic regimes the globe over. On and on it goes! Nothing surprises me from this Republic no matter who or what is in power.

    BTW, the only nominal ‘conspiracy theory’ I mentioned was about JFK but logic concludes…and I digress. The rest are bonafides.

    Ultimately, what you have to ask is, what are the political implications? We will Executive Orderly know in a very short time as the INFRINGEMENT of our Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution will further commence. I sure am glad we have a Constitutional Law scholar for a POTUS. This way he knows all of the legalese to loophole the ‘godamn piece of paper’.

    The way that I’ve always seen it is this: If they don’t have a problem stepping on your writ of Habeas corpus, I’m pretty sure they don’t have a problem with your Right to keep and bear arms. Unfortunately, they (and by they I mean any political party Rep. at any time in any era, post 911) have to use a crisis to manipulate public support for such draconian measures. Be it real or PSYOP.

    Notice how proposed bills are conveniently and immediately introduced in the hours after a crisis event? Do you really think Feinstein held a lucubration and cooked up her bill? That thing takes months to refine.

    In summary, we now have Free Speech Zones that are fenced in cubicles miles away from an event (make sure you apply for a permit), warrantless and unfettered digital access to your Privacy, an Executive determination of belligerence thereby suspending your writ of Habeas corpus, detainment and possible execution. These are but a few of many. WE are under attack IMHO. Please, convince me otherwise.

    As for our PhD, I can only think of one quote and 90% of zombie consumer Americans are not going to like it :

    “In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

    -Eric Blair

  156. ““In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

    ***********************

    And I would add to the dictum, “but facts still trump speculation each and every time. And wild speculation that hurts people is never in furtherance of the truth, it just gets your name in the newspaper.”

  157. “He has a right to maintain a private blog and to speak his mind on public controversies, even to the dismay and displeasure of the public.”

    Even when it “hurts” people.

  158. mespo:

    I have a friend from Africa who needs a good emploment lawyer for a wrogful termination case. Do you do that or do you know someone? The employer is in Arlington, VA.

  159. Amazing the nujmber of infiltrants from the intelleigence community here on this thread. And some who seem to have worked for or are working for the Company or its affiliated agencies or for privately controlled ones who cooperate with them in mutual backscrafting.

  160. “The Barron County, Wisconsin Republican Party used their Facebook page shared a link to this blog post from the conservative blog Short Little Rebel which promotes the unfounded conspiracy theory that the United States Federal Government was behind the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

    Susan Shannon, who describes herself as a “Christian Conservative”, said this in her blog post:

    I believe this was a PLANNED event — specifically to get the UN Small Arms Treaty signed. The father of the shooter is Peter Lanza, rumored to be scheduled to testify on the international LIBOR scandal. Guess who else is rumored to be scheduled to testify on the LIBOR scandal? Father of the BATMAN theater shooter. Amazing coincidence? We will see. The LIBOR scandal is a massive, worldwide network of banks, the Federal Reserve and highly position individuals such as Tim Geihtner and Ben Bernanke that are being accused of manipulating LIBOR rates to gain better market positions. Just some of the Banks involved are: the Canadian branches of the Royal Bank of Scotland, HSBC, Deutsche Bank, JP Morgan Bank, and Citibank, as well as ICAP (Intercapital), an interdealer broker. It also mentions Bank of America & Barclays. It is ugly to its roots and VERY powerful people are involved.

    I believe our GOVERNMENT shot those kids and teachers and used Adam Lanza and his family to pull it off. They might have killed two birds with one stone. One: If these men are involved in the LIBOR scandal, they can manipulate their testimony. Two: they get gun control. How very, very clever and efficient of them, right? I hate to say it. I hate to put myself ‘out there’ with this because I KNOW how I will be attacked. But I don’t do this for anyone’s approval. I do it to help the American People. You look at these links and you decide.

    That is an unfounded conspiracy theory based on trying to link two separate events, the LIBOR rate-fixing scandal and the Sandy Hook massacre, together and falsely claiming that the Sandy Hook massacre was an inside job run by the Federal Government of the United States. That sounds very similar to many of the unfounded conspiracy theories about the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and Shanksville, Pennsylvania.

    Also, by including a link to that blog post on their Facebook page, the Barron County, Wisconsin Republican Party, which supports politicians like Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, U.S. Senator Ron Johnson, and U.S. Representative Sean Duffy, is endorsing this unfounded conspiracy theory about the Sandy Hook massacre.

    Chris Liebenthal, the author of the progressive blog Cognitive Dissidence, included the phone number of the Barron County, Wisconsin GOP’s headquarters in this blog post Call the Barron County, Wisconsin GOP and tell them to denounce Susan Shannon and her conspiracy theories falsely claiming that the Sandy Hook massacre was an inside job!” Daily Kos

  161. I can’t consider hackers a source. They can more than we can know.
    And arranging the photos and namelists in itself requires however, if the kids are to be saved in a staged opn, an operatation which requires lethal stress on the parents who cooperated, if that is what happened. If the kids are alive, then reasonably the families of victims will have contact with their “dead” children. Watching for tips may be hard to attain if even neighbors are involved.

    How is this possible? Well we with facts revealed, that 9/!! was false event of a very large magnitude. It required the obedience and cooperation of the pax on the planes. They also can have been preselected, maybe even have been Company employees. There have been published photos of planes with the same rudder ID number taken after the crash. Thus this would tend to added suspicion in re PA,crash.

    .Indicarions are so that a true crash has not occurred. That the crash scene instead indiccates that a cruise-robot was crashed, and similar suspicion haw offered in re the Pentagon chase. There are alleged photos taken at other airports, of offl-oading all pax, with peculiar opns observed in re that process in the arrival hall. They were said to be handled like a charter group in that they were kept together during processing. What you have then are no dead pax who must be relocated. Loading the plane with stateside undercover officers would help or elimnate that process, The families are aided in moving to new locatities where they pick up new ID papers for a new civer ídentity for the victim and familhy.

    So we have emptied planes with no pax and drugged Saudies dupes..
    Resume narrative.

    More later.

  162. Dred – not sure if your too literal reading of my statement was intention on your part or just me not making myself clear enough. I know the definition of ‘conspiracy theory’.

    But in the popular lexicon, as used in the piece and in my comment, it is a pejorative indicating tinfoil hat wearing, black helicopter fearing, Obama was born in Kenya yet somehow got his birth announcement into the Honolulu newspaper levels of stupidity.

    Read the rest of my comment there.

  163. “We are dealing here with bad ideas, not physical blows or the absence of ideas. For that problem John Stuart Mill had the right answer long ago in his famous essay “On Liberty.” He said that we must allow for the expression of bad ideas — whether opinions or alleged statements of fact — because they may contain some grain of truth that corrects the conventional wisdom or, lacking that, provide a challenge to accepted beliefs, without which those beliefs in the long run become mere prejudices. As Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis advised, in his famous Whitney v. California opinion in 1927, “If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.”” http://prospect.org/article/remedy-more-speech

  164. Swarthmore,
    That was a great link to the Barron County, Wisconsin Republican Party facebook page. I am still amazed how people can just look past the 20 childrens bodies and either assume they were somehow faked, or that the government killed twenty 6 and 7 year olds for an alleged gun treaty. Looking for facts is one thing. Making stuff up and spitting in the families eyes is a whole different ball game.

  165. rafflaw,

    I don’t think that Sandy Hook was “faked.” Neither do I think that these children were killed for “an alleged gun treaty” or anything of the sort. But if there are good questions, they should be answered. As was said in the prospect dot org article:

    “…we must allow for the expression of bad ideas — whether opinions or alleged statements of fact — because they may contain some grain of truth that corrects the conventional wisdom or, lacking that, provide a challenge to accepted beliefs, without which those beliefs in the long run become mere prejudices.”

    As a parent, it’s what I would want. Let people “make stuff up”, if that’s what they choose to do. The truth will overcome it.

    “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it–always.” ― Mohandas Gandhi

  166. ap,
    No one can be upset with asking questions and demanding the truth and of course everyone has the right to say and think how they please,but there have been far too many comments suggesting, without credible evidence that the government was behind the shootings or staged them. The parents and family members of the 20 children and 6 adults are the hard evidence that the crime occurred. I have yet to see anything except tin foil nonsense to suggest the gov’t was involved in any way. Isn’t that an insult to the dead and the loved ones they left behind? I think some of this conspiracy stuff concerning Sandy Hook is related to the fear that the country just might do something to control dangerous and unnecessary weapons and large capacity magazines. Just my opinion.

  167. Rafflaw.

    I appreciate your exercise your speech rights, but I have mine also.
    My comments have only been acknowledge one time in recent weeks. Why is that?

    “No one can be upset with asking questions and demanding the truth and of course everyone has the right to say and think how they please,but there have been far too many comments suggesting, without credible evidence that the government was behind the shootings or staged them.”—Rafflaw.

    Without going into the Sandy Hook arguments which I have advanced on the precedent of 9/11, I ask where you stand on conspiracies behind that event.

    Do you still believe that it was caused by 19 Al Qaeda perps?
    Do you still believe that skyscrapers fall in place, instead of toppling to the side? Or do you therefore realize that 9/11 was brought down by pre-installed demolition materials? There are hiudreds of such facts.

    And if I suspect the Government of arranging a massacre for achieving a greater purpose, then I only have to contemplate the human sacrifices and the false leadoff of the Íraqi and Anghanistan wars to convince me that we are pawns. De-gunning America may be enough. They are still milking terrorism, with the addition of nutty “selected” and enabled derange people.

    Fear is easy to instill, and being a victim of crazies actively feeds public paranoia.

    Last question: Why do you continuously use the victims and ethicall conduct as basis for your argument? You are not the only one sitting here with firm ethics. There are many who, like me, does not trust our masters. Do you`

    Looking forward to YOUR reply.

  168. Rafflaw,

    PS “far too many comments without credible evidence”

    How many do you think is enough? Read the Mill, Brandeis, and Gandhi quotes posted by AP.

    Are you proposing a breach of our guarantee of free and unsuppressed speech`?

  169. ap,

    As a soft rule utilitarian (if you have to have a philosophical label, my views are actually quite syncretic), I have no issue with Mill’s statement. However, expressing bad ideas and even exploring them isn’t the same as identifying them as bad ideas. No one is trying to silence anyone. However, a bad idea is a bad idea and in the marketplace of ideas they will tend to be marked as such. No one as yet as identified a benefit for an alleged conspiracy that matches or merits the potential risks let alone presented anything like substantive proof. As mespo so rightly notes “facts still trump speculation each and every time. And wild speculation that hurts people is never in furtherance of the truth, it just gets your name in the newspaper.” This is an example of sensationalism in the media at its worst: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

  170. “I have yet to see anything except tin foil nonsense to suggest the gov’t was involved in any way. Isn’t that an insult to the dead and the loved ones they left behind?” -rafflaw

    IMO, one can’t insult the dead. Dead is dead. Even if there’s an afterlife, I’m guessing that the dead can take it but, again, that’s just my opinion. We can try to honor the dead, but we can’t insult them. And we honor them, it seems to me by standing on the side of free speech.

    As for the families, well, life is not a painless venture or process for most, as the families and friends of Sandy Hook victims know, only too well. To think that these families need to be protected from mere words or even seemingly bizarre inquiries, however “hurtful”, is presumptuous, at best, and dangerous, at worst. Again, any and all questions should be asked and answered.

    Sandy Hook aside, as well as gun-control issues, some of what’s dismissed as “tin foil nonsense” ought to be looked at more closely. Things aren’t always what they seem to be in these United States. The government is involved in some very ugly business and, knowing what I know, I say: “Question everything.” Everything. Even if it offends or hurts.

    In general, Americans need to toughen up and open their eyes. There will be more Sandy Hooks, or worse, unless we deal with a significant and serious systemic problem that has nothing to do with the availability of guns or the ability of the mentally ill to buy weapons.

  171. All and esp AP,

    Yes, theý dupe us, use us, etc.

    How many times must we be screwed in the a55 before we bleed enough to suggest that our government,, fascistic as it is steered by corporate interests,
    is a cancer?

  172. GeneH,

    Still using the usual arguments. Opinions are fine, but they compete, only good ones stand the test—my paraphrase.

    Yes, very true, but as Brandeis said—–even a little grain of truth within the opinion , however otherwise badly and refutably expressed, makes that opinion worth being expressed. Why did you not quote Brandeis? Chicken! Just as you said gibberish to my comment, Tit for tat.
    But I did not mind, just considered the source and your usual descent to ad hominems and crude blows instead of meeting arguments.

    The name of the game, GeneH, is influencing the denizens, I don’t dare call them citizens of a democracy. But our stable productivity is valued by our mastere.

    Some seeks to reveal its heavy and filthy hand by revealing its deeds:
    Ellsberg, Russ Baker, Manning, Assange, and many ordinary people like myself. We can at least clamor and that is shielded by the big C. (maybe)

    And then there are those who rant abpit these injustices, even citing examples all know of, but then they throw up their hands, shrug their shoulders and give up until a rant agaain suits them. I am not saying you should change, Why should I? I appreciate you as you are. Seriously. It would be very much more meager here without you.

    But I have my right to openly question the few obvious campaigns aided by such events as Sandy Hook. I don’t have the facts, except the ones advanced by our authorities. And I say more facts, more honest and transparent investigation by independent organizations is the answer even for the grieving families. This would be a source to help them reach closure. Much better than only the dead man knows

    Right now big O et al are mostly keeping cool on Iran and Syria. Two misfortunes recently are enough to chill the lust for more.

    Conspiracies. Politics is by its nature run by conspiracies, Especially a duopolitical one.

    Any facts to counter with? Facts, so present yours. Oh, you correctly say, the non-existence of evidence proves nothing. Yes, I am an engineer and that was the first they taught us.

    BUT, refusing on the basis of cost/risk/benefit is presumptious on your part.
    And not a little hubris as well.
    You don’t have the facts to judge the factors that TPTB considered and their benefits sought. And you express hubris by presuming to know their minds and their capabilities and evil (opinion) plans
    .
    Allusions by you to knowlege of intel ops is ludricous. Unless you are a buddy of the establishment. What CIA training have you had? Poppy got his from his pa, Prescott. So he was recruited at Yale. Skull and Bones etc. So it came from Poppy’s uppbringing.

    You are smart and they tapped you on the shoulder for that perhaps. Have you or have you had any connection with our intel organizations, including civil, military, or gov agencies? Did I miss a category?

    Where did you get recruited and when?

    And to top things off, a great Carlin take on us contented pigs.

    Thanks for the joust.

  173. Rafflaw,

    RE: your motivation for not liking our pushing alternatives as being an insult to the dead…….!

    Where would we be with all those dead and resting in Arlington, if we do not question our leaders and their ultimate motives, etc which these brave dead are sacrifice under false Potemkin scenery. I thing our skepsis honors them instead. They fought and paid the ultimate price for the sake of our freedoms. Not to back up secret government strategies.

    I should think that your desire for acknowlegment of his deeds and your need for cloture in re your father is an example, where we share a common cause.

    We honor the dead for their sacrifice. do not insult them. To hold our tongues and not cry out against conspiracies, no matter the sources, would be to dishonor them, by not using the freedoms that they perished for.

  174. id707,

    I know more than one person in the intelligence community and I’m familiar with how they think and the history and nature of both human and signal intelligence. “BUT, refusing on the basis of cost/risk/benefit is presumptious on your part.” Not in the slightest. I presented the logical downside of such an operation and no one, including you, has put forth a substantive upside to merit that risk given what I know of both the mindset of intel operatives and history.

    As to my claims there was one gunman? The testimony of the witnesses/victims to one gunman is sufficient as is the body of the shooter dead at his own hand. You are the one making an extraordinary claim. The burden of proof is upon you.

    I’m the first one to say question everything. However, I’m also the first one to say proof(s) and/or logic(s) are required to back assertions. Question all you like, but don’t expect your assertions to be accepted based on speculation alone. It’s not going to happen.

  175. ID,
    If you will read my response correctly, I stated that asking questions and demanding the truth is what we should all do, but to throw around unsubstantiated rumors and wild claims without evidence is an insult to the children and the staff that were murdered. As Gene asks, where is the evidence???

  176. ID,
    I am not conerned with 9/11 or any other disaster at the moment. I am simply requesting evidence to back up these dangerous and hurtful assertions about Sandy Hook.

  177. GeneH,

    Thanks.

    But how did you know them and how did you get to absorb their training and judgements as to the analysis which we discuss.

    How do YOU know what the benefit of taking away the guns are worth at this stage of extinguishing freedoms and protest and leakage of the truth.
    It is and should be the Prez decision, ( or sub rosa Cheney, Bush Sr. etc)

    Not the intelligence people. They advise and obey orders, but sometimes not. Sometimes they will take orders from those with ties to the organization to depose a President (Nixon) or for their own interests and those of others (JFK) or the ambitions of one of their secret and permanent subrosa leaders, (Reagan attempt by Poppy Bush). See Russ Baker’s book.

    As MikeS advises us, it leads to a bad life, ie being suspicious leading to paranoia. For those that can handle that and have good supporting relationships, it might be possible. Otherwise the public in general and its lotus-eater components need to follow the Carlin link.

    The world reaction to put down gun equipped resistance to gun control—using massive response, would make considering an alternative peaceable “solutión” attractive. But so far, it got us Iraq, but this shock is hard to judge as to permanent pressure on our representatives.

    I don’t dig guns as an answer, although some say the FF understood the need for resisting armed abuse by the government and/or religions. There being the “aber” (German) of “militia” and our pioneer need of weapons, which are motifations against and for private ownership.

    I understand your position visavis the intel demands for non-disclosure. It is perhaps a “killing offense” Stifling is their specialty, be it leaders domestically, non-cooperativeforeign leaders or uncooperative Presidents, and not just Marlon Brando in Vietnam (or was he over the border of Laos?).

    Constructing something out of whole cloth in the SH case is not my job.
    My job is to doubt and speculate, trying to make an issue which might have positive outcome which is then greeted with the specious anti-arguments here, only serves to increase my suspicion. Methinks they protest too much, and poorly done by using aspersions of the kind advanced so far.

    Have you read Ishmael Jones’ book: Human Factor.? Recommend it.

    Asking me for facts is like asking Yankee Stadium for answers It has none.
    Nor does the Wall in Jerusalem nor the Golden Mosque there.
    Beyond my powers, energies and skills.

    Going to bed. 12 AM here. No more post midnight sessions for me.
    Miss all the fun you all will have. Later.

  178. “rafflaw1, January 11, 2013 at 5:54 pm

    ID,
    If you will read my response correctly, I stated that asking questions and demanding the truth is what we should all do, but to throw around unsubstantiated rumors and wild claims without evidence is an insult to the children and the staff that were murdered. As Gene asks, where is the evidence???”
    ==================

    Read your post again. You do say we should demand the truth, but cast in doubt with moral/ethical motives the efforts by other to investigate the truth of the matter. How many times will you stand on your goverment’s side as they, planned and steadily, take away your freedom.

    If suspicions and speculation bears no fruit in Sandy Hook, then the exercise of suspicion is a good thing for this land of lotus eaters See Carlin link

    Offering with one hand and taking it away with the other is a shell game at best. and many other worst things whose list is endless. Start with honest cherry tree Washington, who admitted imperialistic ambitions but denied its implementation after that gaffe.

  179. id707,

    “But how did you know them and how did you get to absorb their training and judgements as to the analysis which we discuss.”

    By the same method I absorb anyone else’s training and judgements; by getting to know them. I’m very good at it. Especially when I’m interested. I also research that which I find interesting. I’m even better at that. Learning from damn near everything is what polymaths do. It is their nature.

    “How do YOU know what the benefit of taking away the guns are worth at this stage of extinguishing freedoms and protest and leakage of the truth.
    It is and should be the Prez decision, ( or sub rosa Cheney, Bush Sr. etc)”

    You state the inverse of what I’ve said. Any fool can see disarming the public as a desirable step to the oppressors in an oppressive state, but a desire is not setting a goal and a means to attain it. The point being that there are other ways with less potential downside (which again I remind you is open rebellion if it was discovered the government perpetrated Sandy Hook) than killing school children to start the erosion of the 2nd. The first rational step that would not require killing children is not to attack gun sales at all but rather their manufacture and taxation in a measured gradual manner or by simply nationalizing the manufacture of assault weapons under the aegis of military preparedness and national security. It’s a strategy that invokes far less risk than your imaginary cabal bent on killing school kids to make political points with the electorate. If this is part of a conspiracy to disarm the populace, the risk of discovery is catastrophic to those ends and to the power of the would be oppressors. Indeed, arms sales have increased since Sandy Hook, making disarmament even more problematic as a matter of logistics. As a plan to disarm, it’s already not working “as planned”.

    Quite simply, Sandy Hook as a conspiracy to further oppression makes no sense from the conspirator’s point of view. It creates more problems than it solves and it does so at an incredible (probably fatal) risk to said alleged conspirators. It’s an irrational high risk counterproductive action. And if there is one thing the intelligence community disdains, it’s irrational high risk counterproductive action. They prefer low risk high benefit rational actions as their SOP. This alleged conspiracy is none of that.

    Now, your counter-claim of conspiracy is not only incredible and extraordinary, it requires credible and extraordinary proof. That burden still rests with you.

  180. ID,
    I cast doubt only on those with no evidence to cause them to ask further good faith questions. These are not good faith when you have 26 bodies and a dead shooter and witnesses of him doing the shooting.
    Asking legitimate questions is far from what is being suggested by Prof. Tracy and some here.
    ap,
    These dangerous and unsubstantiated allegations and suggestions of government involvement without evidence to suggest a conspiracy is very hurtful to a grieving family.

  181. Rafflaw,

    Re your interest in pursuit of truth.

    “I stated that asking questions and demanding the truth is what we should all do” Rafflaw

    And then in re Sandy Hook you close the door with a view to the possible damage involved in suspicion/speculation and refusal to swallow the prepared and pre-arranged propagandic script offered via the media.

    And also say that 9/11 has no bearing. nor other in truth treacherous acts against the Constitution, while denying your own interest in the suspicious grounds of your father’s death, perhaps by “friendly” fire—–is an amazing self-denial.

    What is the price of liberty, but eteranal vigilance. Source unknown

    Revolution times. Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine?

    Good night all. Bed calls. Exit, left as always.

  182. “Yes, there really are Newtown truthers.

    But in the crazy world of Sandy Hook conspiracy theories, this one may be the worst yet. (Maybe you’ve already heard some of the others, like the one about fantasy ties between the gunman’s family and the LIBOR banking scandal and a related theory about the Aurora shooting and the “Dark Knight Rises.”) Most of the theories are really pieces of a larger meta-theory: that the Sandy Hook shooting was a hoax, perhaps by the Obama administration, designed to stir demand for gun control.

    In the latest angle, theorists think they have found “absolute proof” of a conspiracy to defraud the American people. “You reported in December that this little girl had been killed,” a reader emailed Salon in response to a story. “She has been found, and photographed with President Obama.”

    The girl in question is Emilie Parker, a 6-year-old who was shot multiple times and killed at Sandy Hook. But for conspiracy theorists, the tears her family shed at her funeral, the moving eulogy from Utah’s governor, and the entire shooting spree are fake. Welcome to the world where Sandy Hook didn’t really happen.

    There are dozens of websites, blog posts and YouTube videos extolling the Emilie Parker hoax theory. If you Google her name, the very first result is a post mocking her father for crying at a press conference after the shooting. One popular video, which already has 134,000 views, was made by the producers of a popular 9/11 Truther film. “Just as the movie ‘Operation Terror’ shows the 9/11 attacks were a made-for-TV event, so too were the mass shootings … There can be no doubt that Sandy Hook was a staged event,” the narrator intones. He goes on to say that the adults who participated in the media coverage of the shootings “should be prosecuted as accessories after the fact in a mass murder” — i.e., the parents whose children were murdered in the massacre should be thrown in prison.

    The crux of the theory is a photograph of Parker’s sister sitting on President Obama’s lap when he visited with the victims’ families. The girl is wearing the same dress Emilie wore in a pre-shooting photograph of the family shared with media, so she must be Emilie, alive and well. “BAM! I cannot believe how idiot these people are [sic]… That’s her,” one YouTuber exclaims as he watches the two images superimposed on each other. (Apparently missed by these crack investigators is the possibility that the sister wore Emilie’s dress and that they look alike because they are sisters, after all.)” Salon

  183. ID,
    You need to read my entire responses. Asking questions where there is a legitimate gap in the information is good. Repeating stuff that has no basis in the truth is not legitimate.
    Swarthmore,
    Great link to the Newtown truthers garbage. That is exactly what I am talking about this nonsense being hurtful.

  184. Rafflaw, I

    have referred to two instances, provided a reasonable scenario, benefit of outside action in doing or staging this tragedy. There is indeed evidence which should be pursued which indicates outside presence from higher up and outside the local one. I have named them repeatedly Read my posts.

    Have you no other argument than crying foul when suspicions abound as to the veracity of this investigation, and the truthfulness of the very early advanced media tale coming from the police. The police had closed their minds, another failure which is universally cautioned for, however innocent, internationally in pursuit of a perp or perps.

    Fixation on your own assumptions as to the answer, is to close your mind to possible truths and leads the investigation, blinded to other possibilities, permanently astray.

    Am repeating my earlier points. If not taken under consideration then, why should my points be now.

    I will read your comments tomorrow. Inshallah

    Salaam Aleikum and Aleikhum Salaam to all here.

    Do you think the NSA will pick those Arabic words up? I believe so, but don’t care.
    An old blabber is not worth wasting resources on.

  185. Rafflaw,

    You are not listening, The non-existence in reality was provided in two scenarios advanced by me.
    In the my first one, I accept that the deaths occured, but there are indications in the audio of police comm to support that it was done in fact by an external agency. Listen to audio again. I have listed what I have detected and got no rebuttal on that. No notice at all. That is your responsibility to read all my posts, not to keep asking for evidence.

    All both AP and I are asking for is an open transparent investigation a la Florida style with evidence released as it is confirmed by police. So should it be in all capital cases.

    I tire of listening to this crap asking for evidence. That is the police’s job. Not producing coherent messages. to console and calm the public as their rush to claiming that it was a lone gunman’s work—–long before the trashed computer was put back together.

    Lone gunmen don’t, as a rule, trash their computers, They leave them behind as a way to taunt the authorities by showing their “superiority”, eulogize themselves, and as a plead for for being hailed as heroes. So do the truly deranged.

    Thus where is it proven that the perp did it in fact, reason to be suspicious.

    You don’t, as police, draw early conclusions as to how many were involved. But that served the purpose of establishing the tale produced and the effect of controlling the public reaction. Yes, political local pressure is involved, at least as we see in TV flicks. But you are closer to such eventual conflicts and can report on how they go down in reality.

    We don’t as yet know what Obama has approved, presumably it would require him to take or defend himself from splash, if external forces were involved and are revealed. Nor do we know how he is planning to use this other than, as far as I know for now, Biden’s declaration of executive action. We shall see what the next steps will be..

    As far as your constant demand for evidence. We are not in court counselor.
    Not mine. Nor yours. I do not demand that you produce evidence, but legitimately could do so. Official preliminary conclusions won’t do as evidence. Only the results of fully investigated police reports confirmed by external examination. Do you have access to any.
    Or are you, as I expect, an RWA? Not an insult, as 40 percent of the pop are ones too.

    Gene calls it variously yellow or tabloid technique, I would agree with tabloid, but feel that there ‘s is almost a necessary function performed, when fhey speculate on alternative possibilites instead of acting as a bullhorn for the establishment.

  186. Our function as citizens is to do as Carlin says that we don’t do but should.
    Don’t drink the American Koolaid which are force fed since school if not earlier. We should be adult and thus responsible to verify to our own sstisfaction the veracity of the info offered, and not swallow the BS.
    All the BS, and he gives a good list of the major ones, does in bind us together as a nation, and good pigs eating up the BS with relish, asking for more.

    If anybody has not seen it and wants to then two posts by me give the link.

  187. GeneH,

    Glad to meet a polymath. Have seen the label applied, and you claim to be an example. I have previously acknowledge your exceptional talents.

    I too, if so, am a polymath, but with limited intelligence not more than a superficial one.

    Unless you provide more solid evidence of your intel contact as to it being formal or infomal then I retain my doubts. There are many things Company personnel are taught, forcibly. One is to never to reveal except to approved receivers. Were you officially one? Lacking such approval, what you will be supplied with is the equivalent of an officially approved snowjob, or disinformational tale if you prefer.

    I agree with you as to any agency, FBI or CIA, not being prone to taking risks.
    On the contrary, the thread running through my three principle source books is the extremely high level of risk avoidance, primarily for reasons of career damage/termination. But to some degree official goals which can stand scrutiny. But in some cases come orders which can not be denied.

    Your argument on cost/risk/benefit being overriding is beginning to convince me. There are, as I have pointed out prior to you, the registration and taxation way which have been used for so many purposes previously and to considerabe success. So there was an alternative way, BUT that presumes there was congressional support of which there was far too little, all the usual suspects, not ones gathering support. Feinstein: I will not waste time explaining her. She trys, as she should, to keep her spokesperson role as being anti-guns and ride this wave as she has done so well before.

    The shoe we must wait to fall, is what the executive action named by Biden will be. Any news? Have not even time nor energy to follow the news now.

    Lastly, the requirement of proof is prematurely put. We are not even through the stage of revealing police verified evidence, which I previously have mentioned on the thread.

    It is indeed sad that conspiracies are required as motivation to a proper forensic job being done. And in at least two Congressional investigations and reports thereof, has shown that widerangeing conspiracies did exist in the JFK murder. That was a high benefit, and solidly prepared and controlled. The main political people: Nixon, LBJ, and Bush Sr were there the day before. Two unsufficiently motivated except for the real reasons.
    The Baker book is my source on that. Thanks MikeS for that.

    But until we are sure, if ever that should occur, that we can believe justice will be done, not controlled, and then we can go back to eating our pigswill and drinking the propaganda Koolaid. Thanks for the P series.

  188. SwM,

    Thanks for calling attention to the fringe groups. I would have hoped you would post info on sites expressing reasonable speculations, in the interest of balance…..assuming there is such a thing. I won’t call them theories
    as they have not, as far as I can tell reached that level of predicting outcome—-as Dredd pointed out.

    Let me personally declare that I don’t run with that group. They may do some good, but have no time to study there work, if any exists.

    I am concerned more with the watchfulness we as citizens shoud use in all that happens of import and is reported. But also would like to remind the tale on the little one inch notice on latest drone attacks on page 24(?) vs the page one placement of some teacher issue. Priorities?
    All the news that is fit to print (NYTimes). Old hashed over news seldom is news any longer. Thank God that their were others who opposed Vietnam war.

    Don’t you agree? How did you enjoy the Carlin link?

    Ridiculing, principally speaking, is suspect method. You exposed these particular nuts by their pursuit of one issue. There ARE mors sensible persons working for higher purposes than attention and reveling in conspiracy baths/steam rooms/etc.

    Keep it coming. I respect your motives and you, but wonder at times if exigencies from the JT reality don’t steer your comments to some degree.

    As my wise friend in Tucson says: “I have to live here, so am cool on things where I must be” . Good advice to me at least.

  189. Doubt all you like, id707. I’m not betraying anyone’s confidence to assuage your doubt. The bottom line is until you have substantive evidence of your claim, it remains nothing but speculation.

  190. Following up on Dredd’s comments about Cass Sunstein:

    Obama confidant’s spine-chilling proposal

    Cass Sunstein wants the government to “cognitively infiltrate” anti-government groups

    By Glenn Greenwald

    http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/

    “He acknowledges that some “conspiracy theories” previously dismissed as insane and fringe have turned out to be entirely true (his examples: the CIA really did secretly administer LSD in “mind control” experiments; the DOD really did plot the commission of terrorist acts inside the U.S. with the intent to blame Castro; the Nixon White House really did bug the DNC headquarters). Given that history, how could it possibly be justified for the U.S. Government to institute covert programs designed to undermine anti-government “conspiracy theories,” discredit government critics, and increase faith and trust in government pronouncements? Because, says Sunstein, such powers are warranted only when wielded by truly well-intentioned government officials who want to spread The Truth and Do Good — i.e., when used by people like Cass Sunstein and Barack Obama:

    Throughout, we assume a well-motivated government that aims to eliminate conspiracy theories, or draw their poison, if and only if social welfare is improved by doing so.

    But it’s precisely because the Government is so often not “well-motivated” that such powers are so dangerous. Advocating them on the ground that “we will use them well” is every authoritarian’s claim. More than anything else, this is the toxic mentality that consumes our political culture: when our side does X, X is Good, because we’re Good and are working for Good outcomes. That was what led hordes of Bush followers to endorse the same large-government surveillance programs they long claimed to oppose, and what leads so many Obama supporters now to justify actions that they spent the last eight years opposing.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein

  191. GeneH,

    Thanks, but I don’t believe that I need doubt :-) my right to doubt.

    I don’t expect you to reveal your source, nor did I really expect you to admit that you are/have been an employee or agent of an intelligence oriented agency public or private, whether chartered for domestic or foreign service. Just thought to check how far you would go.

    As for charters, there is much evidence that both violate their charters and the citizens’ rights daily.

    I am speculating as a citizen should do, holding an eye on events.
    I don’t even do that routinely, for reasons which MikeS acknowledge, both as there being good reason to do so, in view of past events, but it also being a bad way to go if you want to eat your swill in contentment.

    I have given up expecting anything more re intel activities and conspiracies.
    You are stonewalling and I am content with establishing that you have connection to the intel apparati.
    I firmly believe that besides being a worthy member here, that you are also an agent provocateur as well. This would be a suitable site to operate in especially in light of your judicial and societal interests. Whatever, you are welcomed by me.

    Substantive evidence is not left by pros. You are of course sure of that.

    Only if they are caught by circumstances (cellphone camera, undead child survivor; but this and all such contingencies can be fixed, experience shows that), but usually they have all things covered, anticipated or unanticipated,

    My inital scenario above illustrates typical safeguards. But the local police commander had to ask the agency man to keep cool when the two fleeing were taken down by his own policemen, he said in coded speech that they could handle it and needed no further panicky measures from the agency side’s personnel.

    Thanks for now..

  192. SwM,

    Now it gets worse. You cast aspersions by asserting that his hatred perverted his judgement and his column
    Perhaps, just perhaps, his judgement is correct. Perhaps his calling attention to the old authoritarian assurances that “we are the white hat, and only do good, whatever it is, for the public good” Possible.

    Whatever happened to times past when Glenn was often linked from here as a guardian of civil rights. Disappeared mysteriously?

    Maybe Glenn loves our civil rights. And does not like them violated, as so often happens nowadays. You have noted the recent violations I hope.

    Keep on helping the civil rights cause. (some irony/sarcasm? must be permitted here)

  193. ID,
    respectfully, I listened to the audio, I watched the hilarious helicopter video that is undated and untimed and all of it is just bogus specualation, at best. To keep dredging up unverified and nosensical rumors and “theories” is harmful to the families. I have repeatedly stated that you have the right to say whatever you like, but I have the equal right to call out what I think is harmful. made up conspiracy memes.
    You are the one presenting these claims as theories, but even yellow journalism is too kind of a label for this stuff. If you are suggesting these could be real, you are the one who is tasked to provide evidence of their truth or viability. Especially when families can be harmed with loose, conspiratorial claims.
    Both you and AP are asking for what is already happening. The police are investigating and will continue to investigate it. Bringing up tin foil claims while that investigation is proceeding is harmful at least to the families, if not to the investigation itself.

  194. idealist, The article was about Glenn Beck not Glenn Greenwald. Sunstein was a target of the left at the beginning but later the animosity toward him came from the far right.

  195. SWM,

    I react too quickly to perceived ill.

    Apologies you reported info. And it was I that (perhaps not) interpreted your intent incorrectly.

    Which is correct? Info versus discrediting Glenn Beck?

  196. idealist, I have not seen anything from Glenn Greenwald that supports your theories about Sandy Hook. Have you? All the materials I have seen are from from right truthers. Probably some of the same people were birthers.

  197. I’m not a fan of either Beck or Sunstein.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/03/cass-sunsteins-resignation_n_1738438.html

    WASHINGTON — White House regulatory czar Cass Sunstein is stepping down after failing to advance federal health and safety rules nearly as much as Obama supporters had hoped, while also failing in his attempt to win over powerful corporate interests by offering to roll back regulations they disliked.

    But some critics expect little change. “While Sunstein’s office served as the health and safety sphincter for the federal government, he was not running his own agenda,” said Ruch. “He was merely taking direction from a finger-in-the-wind White House.

  198. “When did we go from “well regulated militia” to “every lunatic who wants one gets to amass a military-grade arsenal of assault weapons?” tweet by David Sirota

  199. “When did we go from “well regulated militia” to “every lunatic who wants one gets to amass a military-grade arsenal of assault weapons?” tweet by David Sirota

    The answer is a pretty simple one, IMO. Many have begun to fear the government, rather than the other way around. While I don’t like the trend, I’ve certainly come to understand it.

  200. “Bringing up tin foil claims while that investigation is proceeding is harmful at least to the families, if not to the investigation itself.” -rafflaw to idealist, with my

    None of what’s being said is harmful to the families. Neither is it harmful to the investigation.

    If words “hurt”, then the answer to lessening the sting is to ignore them or “toughen up.” And any robust investigation will be able to withstand any and all questions or inquiries.

    While I don’t agree with James Tracey’s “theory”, I also don’t believe that people should be silenced for their views, however “nutty” they might seem.

    Having said this, let there be no mistake, my heart goes out to the families and friends of the victims, as well as the community.

  201. SWM,

    Did you answer my question or not? I did not look for and thus have not found support anywhere for what my observations on the material presented by commentators here as data, such as that is. The radio contact audio wass interesting, in particular, indicating contact with outside agency from higher up during the engagement. That is not a coincidence. Took it from there.
    .
    Are you implying I am kin with the “birthers”, etc. Hope not.

    Your crypticism approaches GeneH’s.

    What are you saying? Speak up clearly please. And extensively. Two liners won’t do, but your choice.

    If you are agin me say so. Just so we know that and possibly why. Implications are difficult to read, at least I have them, having never learned the idiom nor collogual speech, neither Amerenglish nor Swedish, as previously explained.

    I don’t follow Glenn Beck at all, except when he is commented here.
    Not totally laziness. He saw so many conspiracies that I wanted another diet. I can find suspicions by myself and like MikeS to have a “healthy” mind, while eating the swill they serve along with the propaganda.

    And you, who or what do you support or suspect? You, yourself?

    Cass is news to me. Don’t do the conspiracy rag, although some imply so.
    You know, Rag as in the Vatican Rag by Tom Lehrer. Don’t even do the Wash Post, NYTimes Politics section. I only have time for JTs and my email correspondence. Have so many ladies waiting for my words. ;-)

    So why all the outrage (apparently) over a media professor’s private blog?
    Give us your take, please.

  202. idealist, You have never aligned yourself with the birthers or truthers on this blog previously so I am a bit surprised.

  203. SWM,

    Appropriate question in the tweet. Just ask the local gun clubs, the gun nuts and those who call themselves hunter. And primarily ask the local or state authority who set up their own interpretations of the “well-regulated militia.”

    If my temporary paranoia has been awakened here, then that may have lead me to misinterpret your posts. But you have done nothing to quiet that fear.
    Au contraire, ma chere. Short posts can hide so much and still say much, without exposing intent, if you search for derision.

    Help!

  204. idealist, I am not searching for anything. Heard the cedar wax wings prefer Ireland this year as Sweden has very few berries available to them.

  205. GeneH,

    I have replied to that!
    Are you blind or just repetitiously inclined to repeat, repeat, repeat. etc

    Repeating met challenges. No response is needed. IMHO, of course, which is my privilege.

  206. Swarthmore mom1, January 12, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    idealist, You have never aligned yourself with the birthers or truthers on this blog previously so I am a bit surprised.
    ============

    No. and am not now.

    I will instead hide behind an authority here who has given support to why citizens shoul be aware of the possibilities. He has said on repeated occasions, not just here on this thread, where he did so, but with reservations to its inadvisability for mental health reasons.
    I mean MikeS who has listed the conspiracies that he has accepted.
    JFK, MLK, RFK etc.

    Once bitten twice shy.

    I only tried to drum up support for a clean investigation by painting possible outside help. And the audio post supports that.

    Add that to a perceived benefit in controlling the guns, then I was sold on supporting that akternative.

    Nuf said, I ain’t backing but writing too long replies to your short ones.

    PS Anyone who does not realize that we are living in the midst of a giant national conspiracy, conjoined with many smaller ones at different levels is sadly a contented pig. Just enough swill to keep them happy.

    Don’t have to turn up the propaganda. Exxon is Green or was that Shell?

    Establishing Obamacare but giving back to the insurance companies and big this and that is not change but illusions. Yeah, I know 32 million covered. Forced women care and contraceptive aid(?).
    Give it time, they say.

    How many administrations until the teabaggers dismantle it?

    They are doing it to the New Deal now.

  207. SWM,

    Suspect that the inclement summer season caused the local birds to clean off those bushes/trees.

    The starving birds takes even the bad swill, like us. !!!!!!!
    The waxwings maybe find some in southern Sweden wich had a normal summer.

    Haven’t been staying at the cottage where the birds are, due to health issues (heart). Frequent hospital stays, tests, clinic visits etc.

    And now my left forefinger is tingling when stretched in typing with all finger and thumbs. Advancing age or sideeffect of new medicine.

    Oy vey is mig. (pronounced as in may)

  208. OMG. Listten all. The ultimate conspiracy theory.

    Sandy Hook, and Sandy the hurricane were both arranged with us a guinea pigs (or are we knockout mice instead).

    Line up to my left and right, your ideological preference to sign my petition calling for accountability. Harumph, said the Walrus.

    Did I find this all by myself? Nope, serendipity did. I save some threads in my favos, and came across the one housing Sandy the Hurricane.
    Must have been God guiding my hand. Or gods, Or dogs, I can never keep up with who I believe in for the moment.

    Hopefully hilariously yours, and civilly meant. Although humor mixed with discussing tragedy hurts some people apparently.

  209. Re: Sunstein, from Wikipedia:

    “Thaler and Sunstein argue that

    People often make poor choices – and look back at them with bafflement! We do this because as human beings, we all are susceptible to a wide array of routine biases that can lead to an equally wide array of embarrassing blunders in education, personal finance, health care, mortgages and credit cards, happiness, and even the planet itself.[citation needed]
    ================
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein#Career

    How does he go from this and ealier books in re establishment of a Second Bill of Rights proposed by FDR, and then reach a position endorsing “planned infiltration of groups by the government”.

    Is that allegation of his words posted here linked to a source?

    He indeed knew who could throw him out on his a55, and it would not appear, IMHO, to be the White House on its own initiative, but the conservatives who opposed his appointment. I mean the need to appease the conservatives force these words to be spoken. And he is not the first one nor last.

    When was he kicked out? Before or after the election.

    Great job, will see who holds it now.

  210. Re; OIRA

    OIRA (wiki) gives no clue, but he was kicked in August 2912 before the elections. Incompetence, electoral effect or political pressure from mixed sources. Wiki is not given to speculations. Only verifiable and from good sources info is published there.

    oira.gov would answer the who’s sitting now but who cares.

    So much for that. Back to freedom of speech and the right to impeach, excuse me, implore for relief from the gov. Oh, yes, casting skit on the Prof and those who are suspicious as the watchdogs we should all become.

    See quote of Justice Brandeis earlier. I hold with him.

  211. This guy and his agency’s tale is fascinating.

    Here is the Conservative take at Breitbarts Angust 5th.
    “Sunstein’s resignation represents another admission by the White House that its desire to transform American society based on intellectual theories thought up in elite Ivy League zip codes is failing and is drastically unpopular among voters, especially those who are struggling in Obama’s economy.”

    There is the liberal one at FireDogLake, (not read yet)

    The NYTimes covered the resignation also. No comment after the usual praising WH release, from either part.

    Google Sundstein OIRA will get you there to the resignation articles.

    O eye RA is indeed an agency with a behemoth task.

    Reconciling regs with hazy laws is not easy work. From over 2-3000 errands per year it dropped to ca 500 under Clinton (our best Republican President accdg to Michael Moore). What explained his brief stint is as yet not clear.

    No more on him, I promise.

  212. Everyone loves what you guys are up too. This kind of clever work
    and coverage! Keep up the great works guys I’ve added you guys to my own blogroll.

  213. Friday, Jan 18, 2013 07:45 AM EST

    Your comprehensive answer to every Sandy Hook conspiracy theory
    Every conspiratorial allegation about the tragic Newtown shootings, answered

    By Alex Seitz-Wald

    http://www.salon.com/2013/01/18/your_comprehensive_answer_to_every_sandy_hook_conspiracy_theory/

    “Vance said he was disgusted by the conspiracy theories. ”There’s no hoax. I was there. I stepped over the dead children. That’s no hoax. And it’s offensive to me as an investigator, and it’s offensive to the families who lost their babies to have people come up with silliness like this. Whatever their reasoning is, whatever their rationale is, it’s just terribly offensive,” Vance added.”

    =====

    While some people may feel that certain avenues of inquiry are “disgusting and offensive”, the best approach is this: Answer the damn questions.

    Honesty, transparency, openness… always. The truth and nothing but the truth. We need investigative reporters who are relentless and take nothing at face value. We need citizens who are willing to do the same. We need people who will “dig deep.”

    As societies begin to close down and a government’s activities are hidden — a case in point being the CIA’s torture tapes and records — people will begin to ask more questions, even what seem like “crazy” ones, to some.

    Brandeis’ words bear repeating, especially now:

    “As Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis advised, in his famous Whitney v. California opinion in 1927, “If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.”” http://prospect.org/article/remedy-more-speech

    Offended? Hurt? By mere words? By mere questions?

    Get over it. And “question everything”, as Carlin said.

  214. Swarthmore mom,

    Perhaps it will backfire on the NRA.

    =======

    Some of the craziness in this country is being fueled by a government program that has yet to come to light. It will. Eventually. But in the meantime… the best antidote, IMO, is a government which fosters transparency and openness.

  215. http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/sandy-hook-truthers-crank-their-gun-nuttery-max?akid=9935.147321.zWcG_7&rd=1&src=newsletter779169&t=7 “‘Sandy Hook Truthers’ Crank Their Gun-Nuttery Up to the Max; A vile conspiracy theory is gaining traction in the gun rights community”

    Again, the answer is to debunk the theories, by answering any and all questions, thoroughly and completely. No matter how crazy the questions might seem.

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