Two Women Delivering Newspapers Shot By LAPD After Being Mistaken For Christopher Dorner

220px-Christopher-jordan-dorner.nlapd-two-women-shot-1.pngIn Torrance, California, two women delivering newspapers were shot by LAPD officers looking for triple murder suspect Christopher Dorner. Maggie Carranza, 47, and her 71-year-old mother Emma Hernandez looked nothing like the African-American male suspect but police insisted that they were driving a Toyota Tundra pickup truck similar to Dorner’s truck.

They were in their truck when they were shot by LAPD officers guarding a high-ranking LAPD officer named in Dorner’s manifesto. Their attorney said that there were no warnings before the truck was peppered with bullets. Hernandez was shot in the back.

The officers said that they thought the women’s royal blue Toyota Tacoma matched Dorner’s dark-colored Nissan pickup truck. Of course, under any interpretation of Tennessee v. Garner, that would not constitute a justified basis to open fire.

In the meantime, there are growing calls to reopen the investigation linked to Dorner’s termination by the LAPD. Dorner was terminated on September 4, 2008 after the LAPD accused him of lying about a fellow officer kicking a mentally ill man. Dorner accused now Sergeant Teresa Evans of police brutality in kicking suspect Christopher Gettler in the face while he was handcuffed and lying on the ground. The LAPD internal review board accused Dorner of lying. What is curious about the case is that the father of the mentally ill man corroborated Dorner’s account and Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge David P. Yaffe who reviewed the case in 2010 examined the case a year later as part of an appeal filed by Dorner, said he was “uncertain whether the training officer kicked the suspect or not.” That handling of the case has concerned many who wondered whether Dorner was punished for breaking the code of silence. The LAPD insist he was given a full hearing and found guilty of lying.

LAPD says it will reopen the case to see if there is anything new in Dorner’s manifesto.

Of course, even if one were to accept that he was treated badly, it hardly justifies an alleged killing rampage. Yet, Dorner is developing a following of supporters.

Source: CBS

116 thoughts on “Two Women Delivering Newspapers Shot By LAPD After Being Mistaken For Christopher Dorner

  1. Not the same make or model, not the same color truck – I guess if I were a pickup owner in LA I would be walking to work for a while. BTW I think you meant to say “shot” not “sought”

  2. LA area doods, don’t rent any Toyota Tundra pickup trucks that are similar to Dorner’s truck until Dorner is found.

    The suicide-by-cops squad out there is paranoid and hyper-active.

  3. Remember, Domer’s truck had previously been burned at Bear lake.

    That fact had been widely reported along with many pictures of the burned truck surrounded by rubbernecking cops.

  4. Are the LAPD investigating the incident? Of course.

    Dorner is published sic (punished) for telling the truth? As usual, how else will we have police unity, etc.?

    I got reported waiting for a green pedestrian signal on Wilshire Blvd at McCarthur park in 1963. I could not afford better and the company had put me there to “encourage” me, living with the elder starvees.
    Guess I was lucky. He surely believed that I was gazing with hot homosexual eye at him, standing in the midddle of the crossing. McArthur Park was infamous then. And I would never venture near the men’s latrine.
    But I had been an officer in the Army, just discharged.
    I guess my admiring gaze was enough to trigger him, but no shots were fired. Only a report filed and a protest to the DA’s office was to no avail.

    In all fairness to the cop, my gaze has triggered people since I was 7 years old.
    And it has continued to this day, although I exercise more care today.

    Owning a pickup, out early delivering newspapers and being a person of color (?) in LA is enough to get you shot. (Are hispanics colored? I thought they were caucasian.)

    David, do you carry a big sign saying that you are “white”? How about James in LA?

    Having marked my presence I will retire.

  5. Here’s some candy we got for free. Now go away, kid. Ya bother me.

    “LAPD Cmdr. Andrew Smith says the department’s Chief Charlie Beck met with the women in their Torrance home Saturday to apologize and tell them he had arranged for someone to donate a new pickup truck.”

    Donate, mind you.

    Don’t let that huge pending civil suit bite you on the ass on your way out the door, LAPD.

  6. Donations are easy to arrange for a police officer, especially high ranking.

    Here we call it extortion. And our bribe takers are not for real. Selling citizenship to folks is lucrative.

    Read the Choir Boys, for a good nightmare maker. That was LA then. Ain’t no better now.

  7. Of course, even if one were to accept that he was treated badly, it hardly justifies an alleged killing rampage. Yet, Dorner is developing a following of supporters.

    True, but is there even more to this story?? I wouldn’t count on hearing it from the cops, it looks like they are already lying.
    And I don’t know where Dorner’s info is coming from, but have to wonder of it’s being edited.

    I know it sounds like I’m pretty suspicious of the police…but after all the stories about them…especially the LAPD, I think I am entitled to be.

  8. @Gene H “he had arranged for someone to donate a new pickup truck”

    WHO is going to donate a truck for a huge screwup like this!?!?

    I’d love to know who is REALLY trying to clean up this mess….
    And I’d like to know if this guy started this rampage JUST because they treated him badly….or was it more? Because this is really starting to stink…

  9. A third man’s car was rammed and fired upon, this time by City of Torrance police, allegedly because the car appeared to be that of Dorner’s. However, the third man’s car was of a different make and color than Dorner’s. The man himself was of a difference race, and weighed 100 pounds less, than Dorner. Thank God all of the bullets missed the man. Here’s the story where I got the above-referenced facts: . Now you can buy bumper stickers that day, “Don’t shoot! I’m NOT DORNER!!”, but I don’t know if that will help or not.

  10. “Of course, even if one were to accept that he was treated badly, it hardly justifies an alleged killing rampage. Yet, Dorner is developing a following of supporters.” -Jonathan Turley

    “Chris Dorner finds an ally in Anonymous; the group explains why”


    “However the department has proven once more that it is incapable of serving the public, look no further than to the women who became LAPD’s most recent victims. The two were shot without warning and were not even given the chance to surrender simply because LAPD thinks they are above the law.

    No one is above the law.

    In coordination with federal authorities, the LAPD is now conducting a massive manhunt for The Dark Knight Christopher Dorner, so that they may effectively silence him forever without due process.

    And now since the authorization of drones have been approved for the first time ever to pursue and execute an American citizen on United States Soil, the US Government will stage this event to set a new precedent from which it can assassinate American citizens for little to no reason at all.

    But do not misinterpret us for we do not condone the vicious acts that Dorner has allegedly partaken in. Instead we sympathize and resonate with his struggle. Dorner was not born a killer he was a law abiding citizen that was tainted by the corrupt and inhumane practices of the Los Angeles Police Department who serve only themselves.

    We however do not accept this fate, and call upon our brothers to raise arms against the LAPD, for justice and for the lulz we will rise to disrupt, dismantle and dissect all aspects of the manhunt whilst revealing the LAPD’s unwarranted hypocrisy.

    We are hated, vilified, and like Dorner, considered to be enemies to the state. But there are those who whisper that we are culture and a necessity that bring truth to a cloaked world. In this spirit we will forge ahead and allow #OperationDorner to commence!”

  11. Wanted for Killing 3, Christopher Dorner’s Claims of Racism, Corruption Resonate With LAPD’s Critics

    “A manhunt is continuing in California for Christopher Dorner, the former Los Angeles police officer accused of shooting three people dead. In his online manifesto, Dorner threatened to wage “unconventional and asymmetrical warfare” against a police department he accused of racism and corruption. He was fired from the police department in 2008 after being accused of falsely claiming his training officer kicked a mentally ill suspect in the course of an arrest. On Friday, the LAPD announced it would re-open its investigation of Dorner’s firing and his claims. We’re joined by journalist and activist Davey D, who says notwithstanding the allegations of murder, Dorner’s manifesto “has opened up old wounds or reaffirmed what people have long suspected or have experienced in terms of [police] brutality. … I am curious as to whether or not these allegations that he has raised — where he names dates, times, places and names — whether or not they actually check out. I think that needs to be really investigated, above and beyond the immediate scenario, which led to his firing.””

    Davey D, Journalist and activist. He runs the popular website, “Davey D’s Hip Hop Corner” at He is co-host of “Hard Knock Radio” on KPFA in Berkeley, California. He is also an adjunct professor at San Francisco State in the Afro Studies Department.

  12. I have been bantering in a thread for the last couple days. I mentioned we should be lucky that the LAPD does not protect the public like they protect their own. Unknown to me was the post originator and probably everyone else were either LEO or on LAPD. They were going on and on how the public is supporting Dorner. I was accused of saying what a great guy he is and other straw-man arguments. Throughout the postings there was a consistent us versus them mentality. I clearly said that I did not condone what Mr. Dorner did but some of the public are tired of injustice and the cover-ups. All they could discuss was the shooting of their own. It was finally pointed out what I said was offensive which I conceded given the audience. But I also said the statement might give perspective. Which only launched more comment of me being a Dorner supporter. They were clearly concerned that the “accidents” ( another man was rammed and shot at a block away from the women being shot) would be seen as shoot on sight and the public “did not get it” that it was justified. It was pretty eerie that the overall impress is when there is a cop killer out there, collateral damage is justified.

  13. OK, here’s my take. Is it POSSIBLE, that the reason the cops have all gone apesh%t shooting everyone in hopes they kill this man, are doing it because of what they are thinking he will reveal if he is caught alive? That’s the first thing my mind jumped to. I cannot FATHOM how they can be shooting up everything and everybody for any other reason. Granted, I know they’re scared for their skins; especially, I’m sure, the ones he knows stuff on. But I just have this gut feeling that he knows a lot more information than they want out there. They’re shaking in their boots so badly, it makes you think they have a lot to cover up.

    The drone thing makes a lot of sense too. Maybe they’re wanting to test the nation on using a drone to kill Rambo cop. Make it look like a wonderful thing to take out SuperSatan.

    Something feels really off about this whole thing to me.

  14. feemeister,

    I agree something smells funny about this. Especially since I’ve read he was involved in an incident as a cop where he reported police brutality by another officer and that was a contributing factor to ending his employ.

  15. Just got another posting notifying me of the Rules of force allowed to police.

    This officer feels since there is a “fatwa” against the police so as they have a legitimate fear for their life, everything is justified to protect their life. “us versus them” Isn’t this the stuff Dorner was talking about? BTW there are several different “Manifestos” out there. Some only 8 pages of the supposed 20+

  16. Investigating Dorner’s original charges? You mean somebody imagines there are any memos or papers (undoctored) left from that original investigation for anybody to find? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

    Dorner is no fool. He sent the cops on two or three false trails already. They don’t even take notes when they watch TV! LAPD? LAPD? Remember who they are? LENO: “The LAPD is so bad they have to frame a guilty man.” [circa OJ]

  17. I’m just looking at some of the drone stuff on this. My question I put to you is this. HOW MUCH COLLATERAL DAMAGE? We’ve already seen they don’t give a rip about normal collateral damage, as evidenced by these OK Corral shootemups. But HOW much collateral damage, with something like drones, that take out babies all the time. They shrug off foreign people that are collateral damage. Are they going to do the same things with US citizen babies on US soil that might wind up as collateral damage from drones? How will they play this? Do they care AT ALL? Judging from what happened to these two ladies in a truck, I would say obviously not.

  18. LAPD is trying to make sure that Dorner is killed, not taken in. He broke the blue line. I can smell the adrenaline all the way across the county. Someone is going to be a hero for killing him. Dorner is trying to clean the house of LAPD but without the power to do it non-violently.

  19. A few issues here:

    I believe the public statement that the LAPD will re-open his termination case is probably a “carrot” to try to encourage him to him to come in or partially to cool him down a bit and not murder his way out. Dorner already knows what the “stick” is, which is being treated like an Active Shooter when he is confronted by the police.

    As for him being accused of “Lying” as being the basis for termination. I have known many occasions with agencies over there that have done this as an excuse to get rid of someone. The tactic is straightforward. You interrogate the officer for hours on end or over the course of several days and if he/she makes even one statement that is contridicts what they might have said earlier, you accuse them of deception or lying and boot them out for lying. It doesn’t matter what the relevance of this was or if the officer made a mistake, such as if the shirt was blue or ultra-marine, it is then blown totally out of proportion. The officer is then sanctioned and only the most resolute of personalities of the accused officers ever contest it until they are reinstated. I don’t know if it was the case here.

    The shooting of these two women was unjustified and tragic. I can’t really offer any more than it’s generally better to wait two seconds and see what is going on before shooting up the scene.

  20. My insider says the LAPD may have over reacted on shooting the women but the City of Torrance was definitely wrong and have to clean up their own mess.( it was a mistake when we did it but the other guys are out of control )

  21. It got quiet here. What happened?

    As some who know me could predict, I am for the idea that this was a golden chance to test the FED forced coordination between police agencies.
    And as one noted, a chance to test if this could be an opportunity for a drone use domestically.

    The FED enforced coordination is a fact. The other is speculation.

    Again read Joseph Wambaugh’s book “Choir Boys”. He was a former LAPD cop who got out after doing only 14 of his required 20 years.
    Published in 1975, it is a blue print of the internal workings of the LAPD, which apparently is little if any changed today.

    More wild speculation. Dorner was picked out and fixed by coordinated preparations. Jusl like Oswald, and the guy who allegedly shot MLKjr.
    I say allegedly in view of his defense attorney’s work, although the defendant was convicted. Which was the meaning of it all.

    See Ellroy, “Cold Six Thousand”

  22. We must get corporate money out of the hands of our Representatives.

    WE have a problem America. We are creating two classes of people. One that cannot be arrested because they control the economy, Banks and Wall Street. The other are the politicians who create law, ignore it and enforce it at there discretion while taking contributions from the people violating the law. What is happening right now is we have admitted that are classes of people who are more important and are immune to criminal persecution based on who they are. If you create a class of people that can not be arrested then you are also saying there is a class of people that can be safely arrested and killed with out cause or process. The assistant Attorney General of the US Lanny Breuer has said there is a class of people that are un arrest-able. They are so important they cannot be arrested and held accountable for criminal activities. At the 5:00 mark in this video.

    In the banking, scandals of laundering drug money and Wall Street gambling and fraud we discovered not so much that these two most respected groups in our society were criminals but worse they were criminals in the open and could get away with it. Billion of dollars of Drug money and the death accompanied with that money and the justice Department ignored them. Yet that same justice department makes a criminal out of a kid with a joint and ruins there lives. Banks and Wall Street STOLE the working class pensions and savings investments to gamble like bookies in Vegas. In Vegas at least you got better odds.

    In this LAPD manhunt frenzy we are discovering this same class of people are beginning to emerge. The end justified our means we will break the law to enforce it. Many in law enforcement have earned my respect by their actions and service to the community. We must not allow a few who desire absolute power ruin our trust in that thin Blue line they secure between a Politician and the Public Trust they swear to uphold..

    WE are loosing respect for those who are responsible for securing the trust of the people. WE must enforce the law equally and fairly regardless of class. If WE do not prosecute criminals or prosecute some and ignore others and hold everybody to the standards we all were taught. This entire thing will implode in to anarchy if we do not re establish trust in those we elect and serve. Surprisingly, as we have seen so far, very quickly.

  23. It is definitely a case of improper training. Human life is to be preserved whenever possible! Their are too many Public Officials with the power of abuse and no accountability.

  24. Thanks Darren Smith for your input on all the different cop threads. It’s always good to hear from the perspective of a cop, but not one who’s an apologist.

    And, on Dorner, I mistrust cops as much as the next guy, but this guy is reprehensible. I have no idea if there’s any merit to any of his complaints, but hope he spends the rest of his life behind bars. And if he’s killed while being apprehended, I won’t shed too many tears for him. And the cops who shot the women in the truck should probably be in another line of work.

  25. A residents to police: Don’t shoot, we’re not Dorner

    Published: 12 February, 2013, 21:01


    “After three Californians were nearly killed this week by police officers opening fire at people mistaken for suspected murderer Chris Dorner, a solution may finally stop the shootings. And no, the cops haven’t caught the killer.

    In the wake of three recent extreme cases of mistaken identity, some entrepreneurial Internet users have designed merchandise that sends a strong message to the police. “Don’t Shoot, I’m Not Chris Dorner” bumper stickers and t-shirts are now being sold on the Web while investigators intensify their manhunt for the suspected killer, a mission that continues to elude authorities and has led officers to so far shooting three people during their search.

    Don′t Shoot I′m NOT DORNER!! Bumper sticker (Screenshot from” continues…

  26. Michael, they didn’t CARE! Obviously! They didn’t care when they shot up that truck full of women! Why would they care now? They’re trying to save their own skins. I haven’t seen the very latest yet. Did he hurt the 2 people he tied up?

  27. Joe Jones Manifesto: Former LAPD Cop Says He Had Similar Experiences As Alleged Cop Killer, Chris Dorner

    The Huffington Post | By Kathleen Miles Posted: 02/12/2013 3:18 pm EST | Updated: 02/12/2013 8:29 pm EST


    “A former LAPD officer has written a manifesto sympathizing with Christopher Dorner, the fugitive ex-LA cop who has declared “war” on the LAPD.

    “The 1st thing I would say to [Dorner] is, I feel your pains!,” Joe Jones wrote in his manifesto, circulated Tuesday by hacker group Anonymous and posted to Jones’ Facebook. “But you are going about this the wrong way. To take innocent lives could never be the answer to anything. I say this as a Man who experienced the same pain, betrayal, anger, suffering, litigation and agony that you did in many ways.”

    Jones, 48, was a patrol officer for nine years, retired in 1998 and now has an event-planning company in LA, the LA Weekly reports. It appears that Jones’ Facebook may have been disabled hours after posting his manifesto (see full manifesto below).

    He expressed his condolences for Dorner’s victims as well as victims of “the injustices of Police Corruption, Scandal, Lies, Deception and Brutality.”

    Jones said he himself has been a victim of such corruption. “I need you to first assume that I would not surface 16 years later with lies about a situation that has me with PTSD to this very day,” he wrote. “The pain forces me to speak as I have yet to shake the Ill’s of my experience as an LAPD Officer.”

    Jones’ accounts of personally being wrong by the LAPD include:

    1) I had my home viciously attacked by a gunman with my family and myself inside the house. No arrests were made and my family and I Received very little support.
    2) I had my Civil Rights violated on several occasions. I was falsely arrested at gunpoint by the Sheriffs as an Officer who ID’d himself and was conspired against by both LAPD and the Sheriffs when my Civil case went to Trial.
    3) I was falsely accused on more than one occasion and simply placed in a position that the trust was so compromised that I could no longer wear the Uniform. Also know there were many more episodes. All of these issues are well documented

    The former cop drew eerie parallels with Dorner, saying that he looks like Dorner, saying that “like… Dorner I used to smile a lot,” and starting his manifesto off with the exact same intro as Dorner, ” I know most of you who personally who [sic] me are in disbelief…”

    Jones told “unethical LAPD” officers to put themselves in a victim’s shoes. “Always think what if it were you, How would you feel?..How would you like if you were falsely accused and your life, lively- hood and career was taken from you? How would you like if someone was beating on you just because they felt they could get away with it?,” he wrote. Echoing Dorner’s claims, Jones continued, “You are no better the criminals you took and oath to arrest when you do what you do!”

    He made a direct plea to Dorner to end the killings. “Bro, Don’t kill anymore Innocent people. Your point has been made. Clearly. They know you mean business, The whole world knows. Refrain from any further wrong doing and do what you must to salvage your Soul. Whatever that means to you. Just remember that God is a forgiving God.””

    Joe Jones Manifesto follows @

  28. Waldo,

    You react to Darrens tingle, great, your choice.

    I see your name commenting and think of hobbits. Habitually mentally handicapped (but loveable?) small creatures who never will be humans.

    Of course you are human, There are no hobbets. But then how to explain you.

    SNARK Love to you too, handicapped as you are. I am too. :-)

  29. Wackos and Waco!

    “Reportedly” means skit in this connection.

    Show me the body. We put a corpse in there before setting fire to the cabin. and finding one with those muscles was impossible. We’ll fix something up with the DNA.

    Besides we think he went to Mexico (red herring), was assassinated in a grimy motel which we torched. (truth?). A shame we could not fit the drone into the script.

  30. I like LL Cool J, but he’s a target, along with all of the other people of color, a few white folks driving the “wrong” vehicle, and civil rights period in California. I would ask were are the stars in Los Angeles, except they are probably feeling targeted, and forfend if you’re a pro basketball player.

  31. Could not listen to it all. Listening to Newtown got me filled with cop talk.

    So easy to pick out the “former” military ones. Clean, mission directed, calm and completely disengaged—-like he should be of course. It is the “management” we must crave accountability of.

    Did anybody hear of a body being found prior to the burn order? “The burners are here……”

    Any motive for burning down a propertry that belonged, or was the house a convenient stage prop for a staged burning. “full compensation offered the owner for its seizure.”

    Dorner’s true fate won’t be known anytime soon.


  32. I’ve been pondering the question of when did it become ok to burn people alive? Then I remembered Waco and Fallujah. What kind of people are we that it’s ok for our government to do such things in our name?

  33. They found his plastic driver’s license next to his burned beyond recognition body but they found his wallet and ID on Feb 7. They found the undamaged passport of one of the hijackers that flew a 747 into one of the world trade towers at the base of the tower. Have they given up even trying?

  34. I have not figured out how they KNOW that this man killed the woman and her fiance. There was apparently a trial at the police department about this that I missed. But I haven’t seen it in any articles I have read. And as I remember my Facebook account, anyone could have set a Facebook account up in anyone else’s name, and written anything they wanted to. Is THIS all the evidence there was against this man that he did these murders? If there are witnesses, might those witnesses have been LAPD cops or someone those cops knew? I mean is there any SOLID evidence that this man committed these murders?

    and how lucky for them that that drivers’ license was made of unmeltable plastic!

    just sayin’

  35. From the radio dialogue:

    They reported from on entering prior to the burn finding blood stains, but was not listening to hear if a body had been found. Blood may have been code for body. If Dorn’s then rescue it, rescue anybody’s. So recovering a body after the burn is just BS.

    Burning a cabin is just destroying evidence. If it was Dorners then it would be full of info, even who he was cooperating with, if any, etc.
    If it was NOT Dorner’s, then it should also be preserved as a place where later examination can yield at later exam.

    Did anyone hear a storning or an order to shoot the cabin or grenade it before they entered and reported blood stains. If you don’t know who or what is in a cabin, do you torch it.

    Guess I’ll be forced to listen to it carefully.

    And yes they will do whatever is need to CYA and advance their cause, as directed from above.

  36. Folks

    Here is a basic transcript of the radio traffic. for the scene just as the gas was sent in. I am providing commentary. I don’t know if there was any editing (I doubt there was)

    At the beginning they announce they are forcing open a window to shoot the tear gas in (they refer to these as “burners”)

    They then began planning to set up perimeter and to open a door (I don’t know how this is being done)

    The mention going ahead to use the burner (gas canister(s)) and prepare to execute.

    Several seconds goes buy and they indicate they have deployed the gas and that a fire has resulted. (1:30)

    Dispatcher reports 7? burners deployed and that they have a fire. (might have been using a repeating CS projectile gun)

    It seems that there are two incident scenes or two groups being handled over the channel. One scene / group involves a search of some property referring to an RPG round, blood stains and a relative. The other scene / group is where the suspect is holed up with the CS gas deployment and fire. I don’t have enough information to know for sure.

    2:20 an officer reports the front of the house is on fire and state that “he might come out the back.”

    Officer instructs officers at the front of the house to watch their “backdrops” meaning if they have to fire their rifles, to be aware there are other officers behind the house.

    62Sam1 (probably a person in a leadership role judging by the ending “1”) instructs the dispatcher to have fire department respond and stage. “Stage” means to respond to the location but wait at a specified location away from danger until instructed by LEOs to come forward.

    301. Officer reports hearing one gunshot from the residence.

    Dispatcher confirms / officer tells her to have fire stage.

    Supervisory officer tells perimeter units to stand by.

    NE corner is fully engulfed

    (Multiple units talking at once) ..break fully engulfed. (speed of house burning is rapidly increasing as evidence by two units trying to report this)

    reports structure beginning to collapse

    4:10 tactical supervisor and other unit discuss whether it is safe to bring fire department in.

    Tactical person reports it is too dangerous to have fire respond due to an unsecured corner of the house and that live ammo is popping off. This is caused by the fire heating up bullets until they burst. This is too dangerous of a situation to bring the fire department in.

    (Multiple units covering) …fully engulfed

    More ammo continues to pop off

    Announcement that the house has a basement, another tactical issue.

    ~+~ Analysis ~+~

    Undstand that the only information I have is this recording of the radio channel. More information will become available from the fire investigation and autopsy.

    I do not belive at all there was any intention by the police to set the house on fire in order to burn up the suspect. The other recording made of officers talking about burning him up was adrenalin and being amped up and talking to themselves after having been through an ordeal with a fellow officer killed. This was not radio traffic. This is stress talking. It happens occasionally and is upsetting to some in the public. It is not related to the tactical units deploying the tear gas.

    Back to the tac channel recording. I was surprised at how fast the fire started and spread to engulf the entire house. It was extraordinarily fast. There is a strong possibility that an accelerant was involved, either put there by the suspect who might have known that CS would be shot in or that there was something in the cabin that was highly flammable. The suspect had already torched his vehicle so it was possible he might have intended to do the same thing with the cabin and had gasoline inside. I don’t have enough info to be sure here. The fire investigation will reveal what the cause was hopefully with certainty.

    I believe it is most probable the suspect committed suicide by shooting himself after the fire spread large enough. He did not want to come out of this and be arrested.

    There was a significant amount of live ammo that was in the house with the suspect and it was popping off. Given the fact that the suspect had already killed another LEO, the house was on fire, and ammo was popping off it would have been far too dangerous to attempt a rescue of the suspect when in all likelihood he was dead alread from the suicide shot.

    AS for the talk of the driver license not being burned, I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on this at this stage as the fire investigation will continue.

    Another thing. There were multiple LE agencies on scene, state, federal, local and national news media on site. With all that scrutiny they would have not deliberately and intentionally tried to burn this man to death. That did not happen. I will bet that BATFE will investigate the fire and more details will come out later.

  37. Dorner killed one officer and wounded another critically only minutes before the cabin caught fire. I doubt you would have found much sympathy for him while he was holed up in the cabin. As former military and LEO, this man was well trained in firearms. It is obvious they did not know what weapons he had with him, but with a decent hunting rifle and scope, he could have gotten off a kill shot at a thousand meters. That means they had to keep civilians, firefighters and EMS at least that far away. Reporters are civilians. I think they used tear gas, but a tear gas grenade has an igniter that burns at several thousand degrees to get the chemical reaction going that makes the gas. The flame is small, does not last long, but is hot enough to set a wooden building on fire if the flame was against a wood surface. They won’t harm a concrete slab floor. They put in seven “burners”; i.e., chemical reaction tear gas grenades into the building.

    Dorner had no intention of being taken alive. If he had, he would have surrendered instead of shooting two more officers. A friend of mine works in radio. He took the real time audio and cleaned up the background noise. You can hear the officers trying to determine if he had a safe room, such as the basement. You can hear their concern about how close the propane tanks were to the cabin. If they had cooked off and exploded, it would have compounded an already dangerous situation.

    They think the tear gas grenades started the fire, but it is entirely possible Dorner started it himself. The guy who holed up in a closed restaurant in Jackson, MS in 1996 had gasoline with him and burned the place himself after shooting about eight people.

    Here is the real time audio that Kestrel isolated from most of the static and background noise. It is a lot clearer here than on the news sites.

  38. The reference to the closed restaurant in Jackson, MS is eerily similar in some respects to the Dorner case. An unstable guy with military experience shot eight African American people, killing one, then holed up in a recently closed Po’ Folks restaurant. The restaurant was next to Metrocenter mall on Ellis Avenue in Jackson. It was only a hundred yards or so from Interstate 20. My youngest son was driving past Metrocenter on the Interstate in the pickup when he heard gunfire and saw people scrambling for cover. He was former military and had been a security guard. Training took over. He slammed on the brakes, pulled the truck onto the median and dived out of the truck and into the ditch in the center of the median. He kept his head down and tried to make himself as small as possible because he was only a hundred yards from the restaurant where the guy had holed up. The perp apparently thought he could hide in there and pick off African Americans one by one, since there was a black church nearby where he had already shot several victims. We don’t think he counted on a precinct station being literally around the corner from the restaurant and police were on the scene in a matter of seconds from when the shooting started. He had gasoline with him, and set the place on fire himself before committing suicide. The police had to keep the scene as secure as they could until they were certain he was no longer a threat. My son stayed in that ditch about two hours before the all clear was sounded.

    There were tactical similarities and also differences in the two cases. One of the biggest differences between the Dorner case and the Jackson, MS case was the cabin was out in the woods and it was a lot easier for law enforcement to set up a thousand meter perimeter. In Jackson, they were next to the busiest shopping mall in town, and at one of the busiest intersections. Here is an account of that story, along with a photo of the burning restaurant.

  39. Darren, I am aware of several similar instances where there was fire. In every case there were two things operant with the perp, from a forensic psychological point of view. For one thing, they have no intention of being taken alive, so suicide is the only option. The last thing they want is to come out guns blazing in an attempt at ‘suicide by cop.’ Too much chance of only being wounded by a well placed sniper shot meant only to wound and surviving. A truly good sniper could have aimed for something like his knee, shoulder or even a gut shot. Second, if the place is on fire, only the worst masochist would want to be burned alive. Commit suicide before the flames reach him.

  40. Darren,

    Can’t buy your transcript interpretation. I believe the mention of blood was before the fire, indicating that someone had been inside.

    Secondly after the leader indicates that burners will be used, and have arrived (and are in place—otherwise no mention would be made by leader).
    His voice is shortly afterwards followed by a female officer announcing we have a fire, we have a fire. Hardly a gas as in tear gas etc would cause a “fire”, and the house did burn, sanitizing it, just as a vehicle was burned and sanitized previously and the vehicle deed attributed to Dorner.

    If they can look in and see blood then they could have searched the cabin, but that was not in the script.

    More after reading more. Thanks for your take. Opposing ideas are good for all our brains to munch on.

  41. Darren,

    I retreat from my opinion previously because I have not listened to the whole tape I will return if I have something to aid.

    I believe that you have here swallowed and support the police version of everytning was Dorner’s fault: accelerant, popping ammo, will to destroy himself and his traces as being Dorner’s decission, etc.

    “Back to the tac channel recording. I was surprised at how fast the fire started and spread to engulf the entire house. It was extraordinarily fast. There is a strong possibility that an accelerant was involved, either put there by the suspect who might have known that CS would be shot in or that there was something in the cabin that was highly flammable. The suspect had already torched his vehicle so it was possible he might have intended to do the same thing with the cabin and had gasoline inside. I don’t have enough info to be sure here. The fire investigation will reveal what the cause was hopefully with certainty.”======Darren

    We could agree that you support and accept the police version before proof or evidence is presented in a properly secured evidence chain.

    I do not.

    Read Choir Boys, by a former LAPD officer with 14 years service.

  42. OS,


    Do all perps think alike?

    Do all have Dorner’s background, military training, rank (Captain) and are willing die in a shoot out or by own suicide.?
    Relevance for you to judge.

    Again experience is no substitute to personal contact. but by the nature of your work you deal with perps after they have died.

  43. If they had intended to burn him out, they would have used thermite grenades. I can tell everyone here for a fact that if they used thermite grenades, the fire would have burned a heck of a lot faster than what I saw on the live TV feed. An incendiary tear gas canister has a very hot flame about the size of a candle flame for a few seconds. It can ignite dry wood.

    This is what a thermite grenade looks like when set off. Notice it burns though a thick piece of steel plate in a matter of seconds, and where embers splash on the steel plate, they leave deep pits. Once thermite starts burning, it cannot be extinguished.

  44. ID, before and after. Got an interview with one this afternoon who was captured. Needless to say, the interview will take place at the jail.

    Given so many jurisdictions were involved, plus the fact there were alleged civil rights violations when officers shot at civilians during the manhunt, I cannot imagine the FBI and ATF not getting involved. Facts are still coming out, and the body has not yet been positively identified. That has to wait on DNA tests to come back from the lab. Given the muddled and often wrong information coming from media, everyone would be well advised to wait until the official findings come back.

    There is precedent for a blue ribbon panel to be appointed to oversee the investigation, which I hope happens. Every agency will have their own agenda to CYA, so the more independent the investigation the better. Guilty parties can lie to media, but lying to the FBI, ATF or US Marshals, will get you five months at the Federal pen. Ask Martha Stewart. She did not commit a crime, but lied during the investigation. Had she told the truth, she would have been embarrassed, but would never have gone to prison. Every one of those officers and their supervisors know the risk of lying to federal investigators.

  45. This case will be a good study in how the media plays it out. Facts were all over the place from how many bullets were fired and hit the two women in the paper truck, the honda accord man not being injured to the cleaning ladies finding Dorner in the cabin. I will not be surprise to find that at least one of the officers shot were from friendly fire.

  46. this has been in moderation due to the language (I think). I’ll clean it up and try again. Changes will be indicated [ ]

    Michael, Here’s an article on how the media played it at the time.

    Darren, Yes, it was deliberate and intentional. They shut the media down. The official statement was false.

    How Law Enforcement and Media Covered Up the Plan to Burn Christopher Dorner Alive
    HIghly disturbing behavior by newspaper and Live TV sources in complying with the San Bernardino Sheriffs.
    February 13, 2013 |

    At approximately 7 PM ET, I listened through a police scanner as San Bernardino Sheriffs gave the order to burn down the cabin where suspected murderer Christopher Dorner was allegedly hiding. Deputies were maneuvering a remote controlled demolition vehicle to the base of the cabin, using it to tear down the walls of the cabin where Dorner was hiding, and peering inside.

    In an initial dispatch, a deputy reported seeing “blood spatter” inside the cabins. Dorner, who had just engaged in a firefight with deputies that killed one officer and wounded another, may have been wounded in the exchange. There was no sign of his presence, let alone his resistance, according to police dispatches.

    It was then that the deputies decided to burn the cabin down.

    “We’re gonna go ahead with the plan with the burner,” one sheriff’s deputy told another. “Like we talked about.” Minutes later, another deputy’s voice crackled across the radio: “The burner’s deployed and we have a fire.”

    Next, a sheriff reported a “single shot” heard from inside the house. This was before the fire had penetrated deeply into the cabin’s interior, and may have signaled Dorner’s suicide. At that point, an experienced ex-cop like him would have known he was finished.

    Over the course of the next hour, I listened as the sheriffs carefully managed the fire, ensuring that it burned the cabin thoroughly. Dorner, a former member of the LAPD who had accused his ex-colleagues of abuse and racism in a lengthy, detailed manifesto, was inside. The cops seemed to have little interest in taking him alive.

    “Burn that f [ ] ucking house down!” shouted a deputy through a scanner transmission inadvertently broadcast on the Los Angeles local news channel, KCAL 9. “F [ ] ucking burn this motherf [ ] ucker!” another cop could be heard exclaiming.

    While live ammo exploded inside the cabin, the deputies pondered whether the basement would burn as well – they wanted to know if its ceiling was made of wood or concrete. They assumed Dorner was hiding there, and apparently wanted to ensure that he would be burned to a crisp. “Because the fire is contained, I’m gonna let that heat burn through the basement,” a deputy declared.

    SWAT teams airlifted to the location were told to be ready in case Dorner did manage to escape. “Guys be ready on the number four side [the front of the cabin],” a deputy declared. “He might come out the back.”

    Just after 7 PM (4 PM PT), right when the orders were given to deploy the “burners,” the San Bernardino Country Sheriff’s Department Public Information Officer Cindy Bachman hastily gathered reporters for an impromptu press conference. Claiming to know nothing new, she told reporters that she had no idea why the cabin was on fire, or who started the fire. Reporters badgered Bachman for information, but she had none, raising the question of why the presser was convened when it was.

    Around the same time, the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department requested that all reporters and media organizations stop tweeting about the ongoing standoff with Dorner, claiming their journalism was “hindering officer safety.” As the cabin sheltering Dorner burned, the local CBS affiliate was reportedly told by law enforcement to zoom its helicopter camera out to avoid showing the actions of sheriff’s deputies. By all accounts, the media acceded to police pressure for self-censorship.

    On Twitter, the Riverside Press Enterprise, a leading local newspaper, announced on Twitter, “Law enforcement asked media to stop tweeting about the#Dorner case, fearing officer safety. We are complying.” The paper’s editors added, “We are going to tweet broad, non-tactical details, as per the San Bernardino DA’s request.”

    Per [San Bernardino Country Sheriff’s Department] request,” tweeted the local CBS affiliate, KCBS, “we are complying and will not tweet updates on #Dorner search.”

    At the time that I am writing this, some online media outlets are beginning to entertain the possibility that San Bernardino County Sheriff’s deliberately set the fire that killed Dorner – a fact that I reported on Twitter as soon the sheriff’s department order came down. If there is any doubt about the authenticity of the YouTube clip containing audio of the sheriff deputies’ orders to burn the cabin down, I can verify that it is the real thing. I was listening to the same transmissions when they first blared across the police scanners.

    In the hours after the standoff, however, the police cover-up remained unchallenged thanks largely to local media complicity. An initial Los Angeles Times report recounted the incident in a passive voice, claiming “flames began to spread through the structure, and gunshots, probably set off by the fire, were heard.” Similarly, LA’s ABC affiliate, KABC, quoted Bachman’s vague comment about “that cabin that caught fire,” failing to explore why it was aflame or who torched it.

    Today, the Los Angeles Times reported claims by anonymous “law enforcement sources” that the sheriffs used “incendiary tear gas” to flush Dorner out of the cabin. The sources claimed the deputies who had besieged the cabin were under a “constant barrage of gunfire” and that, “There weren’t a lot of options.”

    This is almost certainly a lie. The only mention by a deputy at the scene of a gunshot from inside the cabin was the “single shot” that occurred as soon as the “burners,” or incendiary teargas munitions, were deployed. After that point, deputies made constant mention of ammunition exploding inside the cabin as a result of the intense heat of the fire they set, but said nothing about any shots fired at them.

    If there were a “constant barrage of gunfire,” it would have been the main source of concern among the police at the scene. Instead, they were preoccupied with ensuring that the fire burned the cabin completely without spreading into the surrounding woods.

    There is a grand tradition of law enforcement using incendiary devices to assault besieged suspects, and of covering up their use. One of the most famous examples of this tactic, and its horrible consequences, was the Philadelphia Police Department’s bombing of the compound of the radical black nationalist cult, M.O.V.E., dropping C-4 explosives by helicopter on the house, killing 11 members of the group, including 5 children, and destroying 65 homes in the West Philadelphia neighborhood.

    It was not until the 51-day FBI siege of the Waco, Texas compound of the messianic Branch Davidian cult that “burners,” or incendiary 40mm military grade cartridges, were used to burn a structure down. Six years after claiming that the Branch Davidians deliberately burned their own compound down, the FBI finally admitted that it used incendiary rounds, but insisted that none of them contributed to the fire that consumed the compound.

    The “burners,” or pyrotechnic rounds the San Bernardino County Sheriffs used to torch Dorner’s cabin, are likely similar, and perhaps more powerful, than those employed by the FBI in Waco. Through the five-year-old “Department of Defense Excess Property Program,” the US military has provided police departments across the country with billions of dollars worth of military equipment, from amphibious tanks to AR-15 assault rifles, allowing the military to circumvent Posse Comitatus regulations by outsourcing their firepower to local cops.

    “Burners,” or military grade incendiary grenades, are very likely among the items passed down from the US army to local police outfits like the San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department.The “burner” of choice for the modern American soldier is the AN-M14 TH3. It is a hand held grenade comprised of a thermite mixture that rapidly converts to molten iron when it is thrown, burning at a temperature of 4000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough to burn through a half inch steel plate or bring an engine block to a boil. It can also produce enough heat to set off unloaded ammunition, which would explain why the ammo inside Dorner’s hideout was popping.

    If the San Bernardino Sheriffs employed the AN-M14 TH3 or something like it against Dorner – and it appears they did – they have good reason to attempt to cover their actions up. Without even a token attempt to establish communication with the suspect, who was, to be sure, a wanted killer hell-bent on murdering cops, they attacked him with what was likely a military grade weapon designed to destroy fortified structures. By burning Dorner alive, then misleading and deceiving the public about the operation, the sheriffs may have validated the rogue ex-cop’s sharpest indictments of the culture of American law enforcement.

    Yet no element in the Dorner drama was more disturbing than the performance of mainstream media. At every point, major news outlets complied with law enforcement calls for self-censorship, and still demonstrate little interest in determining how and why a lethal fire started on a snow-covered mountain in the dead of winter. As a quintessentially American tragedy reaches its denouement, the truth remains buried beneath a smoldering pile of ashes.

    Read a Storify collection of Max Blumenthal’s livetweeting of the Dorner standoff.

  47. What OS said.

    There was not any conspiracy theory type cover up of what happened. I also am not one to just automaticly “side with the police’ There are some things that are readily apprarent in the police sound recording and then there are some that will have to be determined by further investigation. It is what it is.

    Otteray’s forensics are clear on the psychological aspect. He does this for a living and is certainly credentialled. I think it is certainly applicable what he describes of the suspect.

    About suicide by a person setting themselves on fire. I had only one of those cases. (I was the first one on scene but it was another agency’s responsibility so I didn’t do follow up on it) The person parked in the middle of a vantage point parking lot on the interstate one night, while inside the car he (likely) poured gasoline, set back the seat and lit himself up.

    A passing trucker saw the car on fire and called it in. When I got there it was fully engufed. At first I thought it was another stolen car that some bangers set on fire afterward, which was a problem at the time. Nobody was around but the trucker. By then it was dark but I found a jacket with a cell phone and some personal items on a sidewalk away from the car. I turned on the cell phone and listened to the messages to see who it belonged to and find out how to return it to the owner. The messages included “This is mom, please call me back, I love you.” and another said “Man don’t do it, call me back.” I then ran up to the car which was extremely hot at the time and inside I saw the man’s remains. When I went to turn off the cell phone to preserve its battery, I hit some button and an app popped up having a zippo lighter with a flame flickering.

    There are some people that do the most irrational things and think in the most counterproductive manner. It’s not always a coverup by the police.

  48. Bettykath wrote:
    , Here’s an article on how the media played it at the time.

    Darren, Yes, it was deliberate and intentional. They shut the media down. The official statement was false.

    The author of that article does not fully know what he is talking about especially in his comments about police procedures the radio recording.

    The reason the police did not rush in the building when it was on fire, bullets were popping off due to the heat and a serial killer who had just murdered another officer and wounded another. Rushing in to rescue him would have been likely deadly for those doing so.

    This bit about the officials censoring the media. First, you don’t want to give the suspect inside, who could have had access to live broadcasts and video could have easily used this information to kill other officers, especially when armed with a hunting / sniper rifle. You don’t want to give a person bent on killing any information the can use to kill another person.

    The other aspect is that because so many events are unfolding rapidly, it is premature to make any statements to the media until they can be verified by further investigation. It is not about coverup or conspiracy it is about presenting factual information.

    LEOs don’t go around having WACO or Ruby Ridge in mind that dictates their every move so that they can cover up everything. They are dealing with events as they unfold at the time. But a lot of these conspiracy theorists often resort to this type of thinking and falsely co-relate those events of 15 years ago as being indicative of what police do today.

    Again, wait until the forensics are completed on the fire and autopsy for a better and more clear idea of what happpened. and understand that a few facts might not be determined in the end.

  49. I don’t see any excuse for trying to burn people alive.

    I don’t see the LAPD as being professional in the least. They’re in CYA mode.

    Hull makes the point that the identification is that of “a big African-American man”. No one actually identified the man as Dorner. As to his driver’s license being found at the scene, his wallet and id were found at the marina according to other reports. There is also legal paperwork filed by a Marshal that puts Dorner in Mexico. Hull’s article has a link to another where she writes about the two manifestos. (you have to go there to get the link)

    Ruth Hull
    Activist Post

    The morning of 2/12, a big African-American man in Big Bear stole a purple Nissan SUV, owned by Jay of Jay’s Tree Trimming Service. (Lt Foy, Fish and Wildlife thought this car belonged to two maids.) Around 12:45, while following two school buses, the vehicle passed a sheriff’s car and a Fish and Wildlife car. What is interesting is the difference in stories. Fish and Wildlife Public information officer Andrew Hughan, who was kind enough to draw a diagram of the action, had the suspect driving towards Big Bear, but Sacramento Fish and Wildlife’s Lieutenant Patrick Foy had him going down Highway 38 away from Big Bear. After this reporter pointed out the discrepancy they solidified behind Lieutenant Foy’s version. According to Public Information Officer Andrew Hughan of the Fish and Wildlife Department, the purple SUV passed the school buses as did the officer’s cars.

    PIO Hughan stated that after driving past Glass Road, the officers realized they had lost him and turned back. The SUV crashed and the suspect reportedly commandeered a silvery–white truck owned by Rick Heltebrake, an onsite ranger for the Boy Scout campground. Reportedly the truck was taken at rifle-point. According to most versions, the suspect drove the truck away from Highway 38 and then turned around.

    Meanwhile, two other Fish and Wildlife cars came from the East and turned on Glass Road. According to Officer Hughan and Lieutenant Patrick Foy of the Fish and Wildlife Department in Sacramento, the game warden in the first of the second set F&W cars believed he visually identified Dorner as he passed him in a car. The second F&W car was fired upon and hit (with about 5 or more rounds).

    According to Hughan, Dorner turned East on 38 towards Big Bear. He stated that 38 and Glass curve towards each other. In his version, one of the F&W officers got out of his car and ran across the area towards where 38 (E) comes close to Glass and fired 15 to 20 rounds, emptying his clip. According to Lt. Foy, the F&W officer ran across an area where Glass did a hairpin turn and shot at the truck while it was on Glass Road. A while later Rick’s truck crashed.

    And if Dorner is dead, who is left to tell the tale of the two manifestos? The version released by most media outlets was inconsistent with the original manifesto and clearly written by a different person than the individual who wrote the original. But was the original even written by Dorner? If Dorner is dead, the public is left to make up its own theories.

    Was Dorner even at Big Bear? Did he really shoot any of the individuals he is accused of shooting? The police mistook two women for him last week. Maybe it was two women who did all the shootings. Maybe it was two women in the cabin – if the officers up north have similar eyesight to the officers in Torrance.

    Under the Constitution of the United States, a person is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. This leaves Dorner legally innocent. But what is the truth and will we ever know?

  50. Dorner case: Mother says family does not condone her son’s actions

    February 14, 2013 | 9:42 am

    “Nancy Dorner, the mother of suspected killer Christopher Dorner, says the family does not condone the violent acts her son is accused of committing.

    “It is with great sadness and heavy hearts that we express our deepest sympathies and condolences to any one that suffered losses or injuries resulting from Christopher’s actions,” she said in a brief statement Wednesday, according to KTLA-TV.

    Nancy Dorner said the family does “not condone Christopher’s actions.” She said the family “asks that our privacy be respected during this difficult time,” KTLA-TV reported.

    In 2002, the Enid News and Eagle in Enid, Okla., reported a good deed by Navy Ensign Chris Dorner, a student at Enid’s Vance Air Force Base, which provides aviation training for Navy and Marine Corps students. Dorner allegedly listed Enid, Okla., as a place where he lived in an online manifesto that authorities have attributed to him.

    The newspaper article, which mentions Dorner’s upbringing in La Palma, says Dorner and another Vance student found a bank bag containing about $8,000 in the middle of a road. The two “promptly took the bag to the Enid Police Department,” and the money was returned to a local church, the News and Eagle reported.

    In the article, Dorner said his mother taught him honesty and integrity.”

  51. OS,

    But are the FEDS interested? .

    Your reasoning is good. But based on the arbitrary prosecutorial power demos, and the demos why FEC won’t prosecute nor will AG the Wall Street based individuals (think of the economic effect! Catastrophe!),
    I am forced at this point to wait and see if it will be different this time.

    We had the Warren Commission. And a long series that you can list better than I can. So I wait and see. Will it be visible and accessible? Questions.

    Speculation on the basis of the past CAN be useless. Who will follow this in the media.? He is officially dead. The media drive moves on.

    How glad I would be if it were true. Carrying conspiracies is a heavy burden.

    He has been painted as a crazy murderer who crossed the line. Snort say most.

    Thanks for the demo of a hellish device not available when I was a soldier.
    Glad(?) you keep up with it all.

  52. Now having read, a comment:

    BettyKath, Thanks.
    Darren, No thanks you are drinking AND selling the Koolaid.
    AP: After truth as always.

    I asked TonyC recently where we would get a voice that would awake the people like “I have a dream” MLKjr did once.

    Dorner was potentially such a man. He chose the direct action way. A bad choice. He had drank the Koolaid the Marines taught him for combat.

    A book would have been better. Better a live Daniel Ellsberg than a dead MLKjr, or any number of similar people who could and would move the people. Dangerous as all hellsbells to TPTD. Termination with extreme prejudice, and extreme test of folks gullibility.

    Let’s dream that he made it to Mexico. We need to be cheered up. Too much truth here is jävlig depressing.

  53. BK, the law enforcement officers on the scene did not “deliberately try to burn (Dorner) alive.” They did NOT use incendiary grenades. The video I posted above is an incendiary grenade. An incendiary grenade is serious stuff, and has only one purpose: to start fires. When a writer says they used “incendiary grenades,” the writer is talking out his nether orifice.

    Chemical reaction tear gas canisters (or grenades if you prefer) are not powered by a propellant like the ones officers wear on their belt. Non-incendiary tear gas works exactly like your hair spray They are for using on individuals at close range.

    Incendiary chemical reaction tear gas must use heat source igniters in the canister. They only burn long enough to get the gas generating chemical reaction going, but in the meantime the flame is extremely hot. Small flame, but more than a thousand degrees for a couple of seconds. Here is a picture of a standard tear gas grenade.

    This picture is a cutaway drawing of the same type of tear gas grenade. If you look closely, you will see the small pellet at the top labeled “Starter mixture.” The exact formulation of this device may vary depending on manufacturer. The “Filler Mixture” is more or less inert until exposed to a very hot heat source. The chemical reaction generates a very large volume of tear gas, far more than a spray can can hold. They do sometimes start fires.

    Now ask yourself this. The cabin catches on fire, either from the tear gas canisters or he sets it himself. This man has said he is ready willing to kill, and backed up his words by his actions. On the scene, he has just killed one officer and critically wounded another only moments before. He has weapons and knows how to use them. They can hear ammunition popping off. Would your be willing to walk up to the door of that cabin and drag him out? Would you let one of your family members do that?

  54. Hmmmmmmm,
    Dorner sent Anderson Cooper a package that contained a DVD that had a sticky note on it saying ‘I told the truth’. Cooper said he turned everything over to LAPD. LAPD said they were examining the contents of the package. That’s all of the story that I have found so far. Maybe I missed the rest of it somehow.

    What’s on the DVD? Would not a journalist have immediately made a copy of the DVD to secure the information? Would not a journalist have published the information?

  55. We were getting worried you’d been kat-napped (or napping with katz), LK.

    One is okay, the other isn’t if we don’t have enough canned tuna to pay the ransom.

  56. Gene, considering the state of the worlds fisheries and our economy, paying ransomes with tuna may indeed become the new ‘thing’. :-)

  57. Gene, they do stay hot, and it is not a good idea to try and pick one up….you can get third degree burns. Not sure if it is hot enough to ignite wood. Probably hot enough to ignite paper. It is a thermic reaction that generates the gas.

  58. The following sounds to me as if the fire was set intentionally, that they believed Dorner to be alive in the house, and that the fire would be hot enough to burn the floor whether it was wood or concrete.

    Over the course of the next hour, I listened as the sheriffs carefully managed the fire, ensuring that it burned the cabin thoroughly. Dorner, a former member of the LAPD who had accused his ex-colleagues of abuse and racism in a lengthy, detailed manifesto, was inside. The cops seemed to have little interest in taking him alive.

    “Burn that f [ ] ucking house down!” shouted a deputy through a scanner transmission inadvertently broadcast on the Los Angeles local news channel, KCAL 9. “F [ ] ucking burn this motherf [ ] ucker!” another cop could be heard exclaiming.

    While live ammo exploded inside the cabin, the deputies pondered whether the basement would burn as well – they wanted to know if its ceiling was made of wood or concrete. They assumed Dorner was hiding there, and apparently wanted to ensure that he would be burned to a crisp. “Because the fire is contained, I’m gonna let that heat burn through the basement,” a deputy declared.

  59. BK,
    Go back and read Darren’s assessment of the audio carefully. Listen to the SoundCloud link where my friend Kestrel (an audio expert who works in radio) cleaned up the background noise and you can hear it more clearly. There were two streams of audio going at the same time. Some were just individual officers and some was command. Command was in charge. Individual officers running their mouth have no official weight other than their own adrenaline fueled opinion. Until forensics comes back with a chemical analysis of the burned wreckage, they do not know if the fire was spread with an accelerant. The suspect had already burned a vehicle, so on first glance it appears he had gasoline or some other flammable with him. It would not be the first time in a standoff the perp set the place on fire.

    The concern about the basement was a tactical one. As Darren pointed out, the basement presented a tactical problem, in that it might have functioned as a safe room from which Dorner could continue to shoot. Their primary concern at that time was that he not kill or wound anyone else.

    One of my biggest problems with this whole affair is that while everyone seems to be hand wringing and pearl clutching about Dorner, I have seen very little concern for the officer he had killed moments before, or the other officer who is still clinging to life in the hospital.

  60. From Dorner to Waco to MOVE Bombing, A Look at Growing Militarization of Domestic Policing

    “The fire that killed former Los Angeles police officer Christopher Dorner on Tuesday has drawn comparisons to the deadly 1993 raid on the Branch Davidian complex in Waco, Texas, and the 1985 police bombing of the MOVE headquarters in Philadelphia. In Waco, federal agents denied for years they had used incendiary tear gas after a fire killed 76 people inside the compound. The MOVE bombing left six adults and five children dead. We speak to former Seattle police chief Norm Stamper and Radley Balko, author of the forthcoming book, “Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces.” [Transcript to come. Check back soon.]
    Filed under Police, Radley Balko, Norm Stamper

    Radley Balko, Senior writer and investigative reporter for The Huffington Post. He is author of the forthcoming book, “Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces,” due out in July.

    Norm Stamper, Former Seattle police chief. He is author of “Breaking Rank: A Top Cop’s Exposé of the Dark Side of American Policing.””

  61. An Intentional Fire? Police Use of Incendiary Tear Gas Criticized in Killing of Christopher Dorner

    “Medical examiners in California say they have positively identified the body of former Los Angeles police officer Christopher Dorner, the man authorities say killed four people over the past two weeks in a campaign of terror against the LAPD. Dorner’s body was found in the burned-out ruins of a California mountain cabin ending the most extensive manhunt in California’s history. Questions are being raised over whether police intentionally set his hideout on fire after police officials confirmed the use of incendiary tear gas. An audio recording from a police scanner appears to show officials from the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department planning to deploy “burners.” In another recording that was aired live on the television station KCAL, a police officer can be heard in the background shouting, “We’re going to burn him out,” and “Burn it down!” We are joined by former Seattle Police Chief Norm Stamper, who says, “Whether it was intentional or not, a very predictable outcome of deploying seven burners in what appears to have been a wooden cabin would predictably leave it in rubble.”


    Norm Stamper, former Seattle police chief. He is author of Breaking Rank: A Top Cop’s Exposé of the Dark Side of American Policing.

  62. Latest from today.

    Dorner’s body has been positively identified by DNA evidence.

    The autopsy is complete. Death was by a single gunshot wound to the head. Entry wound and bullet trajectory are consistent with suicide. Not surprising. He was not about to surrender or be captured, and he did not want to be immolated. Often a perp will start a fire, then commit suicide before the flames reach them.

    Arson specialists from the CSI lab are sill analyzing the cabin ruins. They will be looking especially for the location the fire started, was accelerant involved, and the path of the fire following ignition. Detection of accelerant will be the easiest part. Petroleum products such as gasoline or kerosine leave easily identified chemical traces.

  63. OS,

    Thanks even from me.

    A great load of facts covers a load of opinion at the end.
    Adding thern more mostly opinion, experience, and “it is reported. alleged” info only adds to the pile (of?).

    And then the clencher, using Darren’s script reading of the radio or the (edited?) cleaned copy, produced by your buddy. Was he affiliated with some police power? Convincing arguments but open to suspicion.
    Of course let’s not discard “lab reports done by police” on DNA and autopsy reports.

    If a rotten police force kills a man, and we know LAPD is rotten, then what can you expect to find out? They have decades of experience in covering over sh*t.

    Was he a bad guy? I don’f know. Once given a mad dog title then he was fair game with a million dollars for his head. As if the reward would ever be paid out. But it got gave the media reasons to headline the chase, forgetting their investgative duties. Of course, with our system, how could a journalist investigate just ANYTHING.

    Was Dorner ever offered a chance to let himself be arrested before news cameras and then be tried in open court. With unlimited rights to speak in his own behalf on eventual abuses. Can such even be accomplished under the court rules (If there aren’t any reasons to deny. make them up, says the judge)

    Keeping him alive and under arrest w/o bail, until a blue ribbon bunch could be assembled to be blind to the evidence not supporting the LAPD.

    Bla Bla.

    Wonder who will be next Dorner? A PTSD marine like Dorner was? One who took the invite and be posed with a LAPD chief (level?) ? The link to that photo was posted by me. How stupid was Dorner? Just because he had been clean, could he have missed the corruption in PDs in LA county? Seems improbable.

    PS Thank Darren for your link to the quiescent media duly reporting the official spiel, as you like it. Great sources. Confirms your position on law enforcement. Once a plit, always a plit.
    Try next time. But watch your stomach. It might get angry.

  64. The question about my friend Kestrel being possibly affiliated with law enforcement almost caused a coffee spew. He is a popular radio personality in a large New England market. He lives and breathes audio. He is a fiery liberal/progressive on most issues. One thing Kestrel does do well is facts. He dislikes his own industry for sloppy reporting and rushing to judgment. That is why he often spends hours of his own time working on stuff like that radio transmission. He also has the capability of capturing live-streams off the internet with his own equipment before they can be edited or modified.

    Additionally, you would never guess it just by hearing his terrific voice on the radio, but he is of mixed race, mostly Mexican. Guess where his sentiments lie on the immigration issue?

  65. Thanks for the reply. I was beginng to conclude that I am the Dorner (relatively speaking) of the JT blog. Always putting myself in the center of my world, Nobody else does that.

    Too little info leaves wide opened spaces to speculate. “My friend” (as I recall it), saíd by you, leaves lots of space.

    You are amazing. Or damn effective. Did you listen to the whole cleaned up copy? Or did he provide a transcript.

    Too many questions. Don’t bother. You just restored my belief in you. :-)

    These were no snarks. Only slightly barbed words of praise.

    PS Got a link to his site? Maybe googling Kestrel will do.
    Sounds like a resource that might disturb TPTB. Dangerous.
    Glad we got such folks.

  66. NickS,

    Duck, here comes a snark.

    I see that you have begun from scratch again. How are the fleas down there.
    Slicking upwards does not become you.

    If friends can’t tell each other that one has bad breath and the other smelly feet, then what are friends for. Especially on a public blog as meeting place. Hugs are forbidden here I believe.

    How is the weather in San Diego. It is the usual pizz here.

    Found a decent pizza place run by two Assyrians (christian from Syria, 30 percent of the pop there in Syria). Assyrians is their chosen designation, ie the ones with the allegedly oldest Christian church in the world. Contested by a few. Thomas in India, Ethiopia???

    Pizza, that and other rarities is what Sweden offers. Tapas on damascene table cloths. at high high prices and a waiter that explains what it is you are considering—–is not my kind of food experience. Even Madrid’s tourist tapas were cheaper and more genuine than these.

    Now tell me how góod the seafood is there. And how the sun shines warmly, and the surf is great walking at the water’s edge. Torture me!!!!

  67. Kestrel is the blog name, not meatworld name. I do believe he is an admirer of one of the most beautiful raptors ever. I will not provide more information than he has provided himself under his username.

    Here is his page on SoundCloud. The first file at the top is the Dorner radio traffic recording he captured.

  68. Oh yes that Kestrel. Will look the bird one up and compare with our garbage hunter gulls, large and small.
    No gulls qualify do to body form.

    We do have a common hoverer who preys on small vermin on the bare agricultural rolling plains of Skåne in the South. It is easily recognised by its V-split tail and its hovering capability. Nattglada (Elanus scriptus), It hunts in the daylight in spite of its swedish name calling it a “nightglider”.

    Will check out yours.

  69. Kestrel does great work. Clear copy. Not clear intent, although it sounds like a well controlled police op, its intent is not to be read here. Looking for intent on the basis of this is useless. A forensic study of the time line and monitored traffic might give a forensic psychiatrist a clue. :-)

    A shame that the version I accessed only began when the fires were well established. To do the op justice it would have required recording of radio tfc since the discovery by the game warden/rangers of “Dorner”.
    But the half hour before the burners were set in, would be especially interesting IMHO.

    Being an old radio man with simplex transmission, I wonder how they get through to the open mike transmitter. I can answer that myself when the old memory comes in gear.. Dual frequencies.
    Actually frequencies is BS old term, In 1959 I saw spread spectrum military transmissions. A form of simultaneous band sharing. With modernizing,
    receive side is always open, and the switching of parties through digital switching in the message envelope. BTW, then it only sounded like band noise in a normal AM/FM receiver´w/o squelch.

    Now this here is a controlled net. For coordination of info flow,verification of content,etc. But from her voice sharpening, it might also depend on desire to not have, due to open mikes, unauthorized info or uncleared info come up where it can be scanned. If they are using hyperbolic function SS technique, I wonder how police scanners work?

    Perhaps they do not have SS techniques. Only FM radio, with dual channel capacity, and rapid manual or automatic channel selection. Then a scanner would do the job. Still odd with a net control when so much info is needed to flow rapidly. Of course most traffic was passed by unidentified senders into the blue. to eventually identified receivers- Everybody seems to know in many cases who is speaking, Which we also did in amateur radio circles in 1950 in our hurricane watch nets when the big boys spoke!
    Bla Bla Bla.

  70. Idealist:

    Our radio system (before it became digital just after I left the department) was a duplex system. From what I understant an open mike situation was mitigated somewhat by the dispatch center having priority on the repeater. So if someone in the field had their microphone keyed, the other patrol units could not transmit on that channel but the dispatcher could override the channel at the repeater and talk, blocking the unit with the open microphone.

    When this happened (open microhpone) the dispatcher would override and tell all patrol units to check for an open microphone. Of course, the offender might not hear that unless it was say a portable radio that was open and on his car radio he heard the dispatcher. If this persisted for too long the dispatcher would direct all patrol units to use another channel.

    Most radios had an identifyer that told the dispatcher which radio was transmitting. She / he could then call the deputy on his cell phone and tell him of the open mike.

  71. Questions about Dorner and LAPD
    Any honest comparison of the two manifestos makes it obvious that the longer version was not written by the same person who put up the original manifesto (supposedly written by Dorner). Unfortunately, unethical publishers and television networks prefer the sensationalism of the fake manifesto to the truth while honest publishers are in short supply. The writing style, education level, and focus are obvious distinctions between the original and the portions added to make up the second manifesto. The “fake” one was clearly written by someone more interested in pushing national issues like gun control and other issues than in discussing matters of importance to the life of Chris Dorner. In fact, Dorner made it clear that he wasn’t writing about the federal government in the original manifesto. Michael Ruppert (an expert on LAPD corruption), Cynthia McKinney (a six-term Congresswoman and International hero) and Jim Stone were all able to download the original before Dorner’s site was hacked and the fake was added.

    Someone went to a lot of trouble to create that fake manifesto. How much further did the falsifications regarding Dorner go? Did he write any manifesto at all? Did he continue investigating the police after leaving the force and wind up framed for murders committed by corrupt officers fearing exposure by some evidence Dorner had uncovered? Were people killed because they were helping Dorner expose corruption? Law enforcement went to a lot of trouble to try to silence Dorner, shooting women and burning down cabins. What were they afraid he would say if he talked? If officers crossed the line in shooting at women and torching a house, how many other times did they cross the line in this case?

    If we suspect Dorner may have been framed, then we need to ask the following question. Who would have had the motive, ability and opportunity to kill those people and fake the chase, as well as the technical skills to hack into Dorner’s website to replace the original manifesto with the fake version? In this case, are the foxes not just guarding the henhouse but investigating who ate the hens while torching the henhouse to destroy the evidence they pretend to be seeking?

    The Victims

    Monica Quan

    Why would Chris Dorner go from protector of police abuse victims to abuser himself? Didn’t Monica’s father try to help Dorner? Wouldn’t he have been more likely to be her failed protector than her killer?

    Keith Lawrence

    Keith wasn’t on the LAPD. Wasn’t the grudge with the LAPD? Did Keith, a young African-American officer, identify with Chris and try to help him uncover official corruption and end racism in the police agencies? Were Keith, Keith’s fiancée Monica and Chris Dorner investigating the corruption together and close to exposing certain officers at the time Keith, Monica and maybe Chris were killed? Chris was supposedly killed with a single shot to the head. Was that shot fired at the same time as Monica and Keith were killed? Charred remains show no powder burns and the torching of the remains could wipe out the evidence of when and how he was shot.

    Michael Crain

    Dorner didn’t have a grudge against the Riverside Police Department. Was Crain a friend in whom Chris confided? Was Crain about to go public with the truth when his life was cut short? Why was his funeral, a media spectacle, timed to coincide with the supposed removal of Dorner’s remains from the cabin and why did some of the funeral speeches give off the appearance of being performances? Was the killer or were the killers among those speaking at the funeral? A movie producer couldn’t have timed it better.

    Jeremy McKay

    This man was reportedly killed on Big Bear Mountain, but by whom? Was Dorner even on that mountain?

    There’s more in the article. Dorner’s personal belongings, wallet, and ids were found at 3 different locations and were the only surviving items in the burned out cabin.

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