Remember those oil rigs that President Obama assured us really do not cause spills? Well another one just exploded in the Gulf of Mexico. The explosion of the rig 80 miles off the Louisiana coast further undermines Obama’s insistence on lifting the long moratorium on drilling off our East Coast.
The platform is owner by Mariner Energy of Houston. The rig was not producing oil or gas at the time but it is unclear if there was a spill with this explosion. However, there are reports of a spreading oil spill around the rig. Other reports state that there were four or five active wells on the rig. Update: There are conflicting reports on the sighting of a spill from the explosion.
The Administration is committed to opening up the coast to drilling — even arguing for weeks that the oil from the BP spill had mysteriously disappeared until outside groups pointing to a huge 22-mile-long oil plume under the water.
Despite the President’s assurances, there have been other leaks at rigs — an inconvenient fact for the Administration.
Source: Miami Herald
Byron,
China has a system rather like our own — a state-capitalist system in which a tiny elite control the workings of the economy. Your comment “Business can pretty much do what it wants because it is an extension of the state. It is used by the state to achieve state directed goals.” equally applies the United States economy. And, I would add, so does the converse because the state is essentially captured by capital interests. That’s why GM and Goldman get bailed out — your examples.
“How are people going to survive if there is no business?” Well, I would say the entire history of the pre-capitalist world disproves the notion that capitalism is somehow required for human survival. (Of course, there can be different forms of social organization more appropriate for a modern technologically advanced society than the ones employed in centuries past.)
“Free markets do not create slavery they liberate human beings.” I think a lot of people would think otherwise… like those actually subjected to free market economies. Post-1954 Guatamala comes to mind. Or Haiti today. Or read “The Condition of the Working Class in England” … do the people in that book seem “liberated” to you?
“Why do you think we have the standard of living we have and why do you think it is decreasing?” I’m not really sure what you mean by this.
“My father voted for Adlai Stevenson so I was not exactly indoctrinated in capitalist philosophy from an early age.” Yes, Adlai Stevenson… who can forget that great communist revolutionary? Are you saying that Adlai Stevenson (or any mainstream US politician) wasn’t a capitalist? That would be rather shocking to me.
“Since then I am ever more convinced that a free market is the natural order for human behaviour and that political freedom is necessary as well. Human beings are not smart enough to control markets and can only do so through force. When economies are controlled people are controlled and vice versa. Both political and economic freedom are necessary for true human liberty… And don’t go telling me I am an anarchist, I am not.”
I would never accuse you of being an anarchist because you’re rather the opposite. If you want to know what an _actual_ anarchist thinks about these things, we can turn to Noam Chomsky’s work, where he addresses both of the claims you made in the above quotation.
http://www.pentaside.org/article/chomsky-govt-in-the-future.html
(Starting with the paragraph that reads “Now it might very well be asked whether such a social structure is feasible, in a complex, highly technological society. There are counter arguments and I think they fall into two main categories. First category is that such an organisation is contrary to human nature, and the second category says roughly that it is incompatible with the demands of efficiency. I’d like to briefly consider each of these.” )
Anarchists do regard “wage slavery” to be very similar to “chattle slavery” — the only difference being that the former is temporary.
And to briefly respond to your response to Gorder Port, if we tallied up the body count of capitalism vs (what leaders of the states call) communism, I’m pretty sure who would come out on top. Between the slave trade, working laborers to death, genocide of native peoples, worldwide military expeditions, etc, I’d like to give the edge to capitalism — a wide edge.
And Karl is 100% correct.
Your form of capitalism guarantees revolution at some point.
Really, Byron.
Your above posts sound positively brainwashed. Like Karl, recalling the discussions about corporate welfare, I recall earlier threads where it seemed like you were making headway into finally understanding that socialism and communism are not the same thing. You constantly refuse to see there is a distinction between social democracy, democratic socialism, socialism in general and pure forms of capitalism (which you endorse) and communism.
Your logic is twisted. I’ll spell out that nature of this logical fallacy to you again in hopes that it will stick this time. I’ve said it before – you’re thinking like an engineer (and I don’t mean in the good way). Absolutes are not how the world works in toto despite the world containing absolutes. The speed of light is the absolute speed limit but the choices in velocity are not either zero or 186,000 miles per second.
The choice between free markets and other forms of economic systems not a binary choice between capitalism and communism, but rather a choice from a spectrum of model behaviors.
The problem with your thinking is that it’s a formal logical fallacy – a pattern of reasoning which is always wrong due to a flaw in the logical structure of the argument which renders the argument invalid. Specifically, by insisting on viewing the analog universe in a binary way, you are quite prone to making what is specifically known as the bifurcation fallacy. This is a logical error created when the thinker insists on one of two outcomes creating a form of false dilemma.
You want a real life example of the logical error at work other than the one in your head concerning economics?
Bush saying “You’re either for us or against us” when it came to combating terrorism.
It’s a false dilemma that disregards quite real possibility that people could be either neutral or that they could endorse different tactics than those Bush chose – which if you recall was the tactic of invading a sovereign country that had not attacked us (Iraq) for his and Cheney’s families personal profit instead of attacking those who manned and funded the 9/11 attacks, their business partners the Saudi Arabians.
You are making the same logical error Bush did.
And I know you can do better than that.
You are also guilty of making false equivalences. Again, socialism is not communism, but rather a spectrum of economic model behaviors that rely on – and here’s the important word – varying degrees of controlled markets to ensure the greatest stability of society as a whole.
Thanks Elaine M!
Byron said: [“I would like to see that poll.”]
My recall of the exact numbers were inverted but the writing is clearly on wall, and surprisingly so since these numbers reflect all ages, not just youth:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/04/11-6
After a forty year Cold War (really 70 since the Bolsheviks received Uncle Sam’s enmity since 1918) and trillions spent on a trumped up bogey man who was never the real aggressor, not to mention a propaganda indoctrination system that would make even Goebbels proud, with Pentagon plants in every commercial media outlet, particularly Fixed News, the statistics are remarkable and the trend is increasing, largely due to the monumental failure of 21st century capitalism which almost exclusively transfers wealth from bottom to top in the most pernicious fashion, and increasingly despised by the masses.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/socialism-viewed-positively-americans.aspx
Bottom line is Socialism is steadily gaining popularity, and if the poll actually was concentrated on the 18-25 year old demographic the numbers would almost certainly be double.
[“Anyway people 18-25 usually don’t have any money. When they start making it things change.”]
That’s the point. All the vital statistics of US capitalism today indicate the vast majority of these young people won’t “start making” any money any time soon. It’s a bleak future of downward mobility. Those masses of people are the fuel of the coming revolution.
With daily headlines like: Years of gloom looming for the housing market or: Protracted recession in store for the US economy — it’s only only natural that bankrupted capitalism gets abandoned during crises since the last time the US had such a great depression Socialism was more poplular than ever amongst the masses and nothing but a good old imperialist world war with over 50 million slaughtered got the US out of that mess.
Karl,
You can include just two links in a comment. If you include three or more links, your comment will await moderation till the end of time.
Byron’s got it backwards again. There’s nothing “free” about the free market. It’s always’s been a stacked deck, that is, rigged market and the key to economic success, at least in the history of the USA (and China too), has been protectionism. The rhetoric of free markets is what Uncle Sam preaches to his subjects but does not practice himself.
I thought we established long ago on these threads that the biggest recipients of welfare in this country are huge corporations that get innumerable & mind boggling government subsidies, contrary to a free market. If markets really were free then the richest farmers in this country wouldn’t have gotten rich by being paid NOT to grow soybeans, nevermind that 80% of America’s land is owned by just 7 Agribusinesses that get more subsidies than any food stamp program ever dreamed of.
China is capitalist, not communist. If they were communist then the difference between the poorest strata and the richest would be around 5, similar to the old Soviet Union, not a factor of 220, like it is in the USA. Moreover, China became such an economic powerhouse the same way the USA did, not through free market nonsense which is gobbeldygook reserved for 3rd world dependencies and East European rubes, but rather by protectionism and government subsidy of large corporations.
Finally, I wrote a post last night showing links with the poll numbers for the increasing popularity of the idea of socialism amongst Americans but when I entered it I got a message saying: “Waiting for Moderation”?
Byron,
Capitalism has generated enormous wealth and now it is concentrating it – that’s why the middle class standard of living is declining and there was no government takeover of GM (the government is not in control of GM and you know that). Keeping the auto industry solvent preserved hundreds of thousands of jobs at GM and Chrysler and probably millions in the industry as a whole – what do you think would have happened if all of those jobs went away?
How is it that the entire world has been drilling and pumping oil for decades and suddenly when Obama needs a ‘bump’ for his Cap and Trade laws, we have TWO oil spills within a few months?
Then there’s Geoge Soros’s need for rigs to pump the oil out of his big purchase of offshore oil off Brazil. Now he’s got the rigs.
And trust me, we may have to be subjected to more of George’s ‘oil spewing photos anmd the Hershey’s Syrup doused pelican if Pelosi is unable to bully the legislature into passing Obama’s latest oppression.
By ALAN SAYRE
NEW ORLEANS, La. – The Coast Guard is saying there are no immediate signs of a spill from an oil platform fire in the Gulf of Mexico off the Louisiana coast.
All 13 crew members were rescued from the water in the second such disaster in the Gulf in less than five months.
The Coast Guard initially reported an oil sheen a mile long and 100 feet wide had begun to spread from the site of the fire, about 200 miles west of the site of BP’s massive spill. But officials said at a Thursday afternoon news conference that boats at the platform have not seen any oil sheen.
http://enr.construction.com/yb/enr/article.aspx?story_id=149365574
Gorder Port:
I have a critical tweet as well-communism has killed over 100 million people and counting. I am willing to get rid of oil refineries if you are willing to get rid of statism. That might be a fair trade.
FFN:
My father voted for Adlai Stevenson so I was not exactly indoctrinated in capitalist philosophy from an early age. I came to that conclusion on my own after doing much reading and seeing some of the world and how things are.
Since then I am ever more convinced that a free market is the natural order for human behaviour and that political freedom is necessary as well. Human beings are not smart enough to control markets and can only do so through force. When economies are controlled people are controlled and vice versa. Both political and economic freedom are necessary for true human liberty.
And don’t go telling me I am an anarchist, I am not. Government is necessary and the founders gave us a pretty good model but left some doors open that people with tyrannical tendencies have exploited through the years. I think the anti-federalist papers have some thing to say about those doors.
FFN:
China is a communist country with a market that the government allows to exist. Business can pretty much do what it wants because it is an extension of the state. It is used by the state to achieve state directed goals.
How are people going to survive if there is no business? Free markets do not create slavery they liberate human beings. Why do you think we have the standard of living we have and why do you think it is decreasing?
Virtual slavery? Poppy cock, communism is actual slavery. There is a big difference between free markets and fascism which is what we basically have in this country although it has a patina of respectability because most people are too stupid to separate markets and government but it is nonetheless destructive as earlier forms. Think TARP bailout and government take over of GM. In my opinion big mistakes.
Karl Friedrich,
I would trust Byron when he says impressing a preferred socio-economic system needs to start early. Look at what early exposure to capitalist ideas did for him! His conviction is unshakable! A true indoctrination success story.
Byron,
“As for oil field workers, they know the risks of working offshore. They choose to do it and take the risks. It is generally safe but sometimes it isn’t. You can be hit by a car walking across the street, do you quit walking across the street?”
When a manufacturing plant in China that locks its workers in for 16 hours a day and pays them next to nothing burns down, do we say “Well, they chose to undertake it freely! Sucks for them!”? I think you’re rather missing the point. The point is not whether they undertook the job freely, they clearly did. The question is whether we want to live in a society where these are the choices that people have to make. Is the choice between a condition of virtual slavery under the “free market” and starvation a choice that should be forced upon people in a decent, humane society?
Follow the exposure of oil as the root cause of cancer on Twitter at:
https://twitter.com/doctorlee445/status/22820554491
RePost and reTweet
I’ll let Karl deal with the rocks you threw at him personally though. He’s a big boy.
One is not a trend, B. It’s an anecdote at best and one of Twain’s “damned lies” at worst (a fallacious statistic based on a flawed sample space).
Karl:
I would like to see that poll. Anyway people 18-25 usually don’t have any money. When they start making it things change.
In fact I know a Bolivian who came here and he says Bolivia is worse under Evo than it was but then he used to be a Marxist until he started running a business.
Good luck with your corruption of young impressionable minds, you have to get them much younger than 18, you need to start the indoctrination around 4-6 so it holds or by 30 you can forget about it.
Nonesense. Ignorenec is obviously bliss for capitalist pigs.
Free health care for all is a Marxist principle. Virtually every industrialized nation has it. This country just struggled for it and barely lost, thanks to all the bootlickers of the insurance lobby, including Obama.
Thanks to capitalist pigs, this country recently was forced to seriously consider nationalizing the banks, a profoundly Marxist principle.
After the Gulf Oil spill this country seriously debated the merits of nationalizing oil companies, another Marxist principle. BP was almost forced into receivership until Obama let them off the hook.
A gallup poll recently showed that over 55% of young people 18-25 like the idea of Socialism.
Hundreds of millions across Latin America, in what’s known as the Bolivarian Revolutions, are adopting Marxist principles after 40 years of misrerably failed capitalist ones.
With the abject failure of US capitalism today, one thing is certain, people are more than ever looking for alternatives to a congenitally predatory system that consistently puts profits over people.