Virginia’s 11th is an odd-shaped Congressional District stretching from the rural Virginia horse country near Warrenton, then meandering east through the battlefields at Bull Run, and finally racing north headlong towards the uber-metropolian suburbs of Fairfax and Arlington. Nestled near the armpit of the District lies the impressive headquarters of the National Rifle Association. The Washington bad-ass lobbing group, made up of one part gun industry protector and one part hunter’s friend, is the alpha dog among Capitol Hill law pushers. Strangely, this NRA stronghold is represented by the kind of guy the Right loves to hate. Democrat Gerry Connolly is a Harvard-educated, Washington insider who served as a staffer on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
On Tuesday, Connolly faced Republican challenger, Keith Fimian, who is a Second Amendment absolutist. Fimian’s views on guns are so extreme that he famously said: “I think that at Virginia Tech, if one of those kids in one of those classrooms was packing heat, I think that would not have happened … The perpetrator of that crime would have thought twice before walking into a classroom if he thought there was any chance of someone being armed and preventing him from doing that.”
Nothing better for higher education than a good, old fashioned shootout with everybody getting in on the act. Yippe-ki-yeay!!
That ‘s enough to get you a portrait at the NRA or at least mention in its “Armed Citizen” column which mostly extols the virtue of firearms to handle disputes with thieves or robbers. What it didn’t do was get Fimian elected. In a stinging rebuke, Fimian now stands 920 votes behind the Connolly, who in no uncertain terms, made his opposition to the so-called “Gun Show Loophole” a feature of the campaign. The “Gun Show loophole” allows most anyone to purchase a gun from a private seller at a gun show without the federally mandated background checks. The NRA has fought this sensible requirement for years on Second Amendment grounds.
Connolly was aided mightily in his campaign by a moving television ad featuring Omar Samaha, brother of Virginia Tech victim Reema Samaha. The ad seen below pointed up Fimian’s opposition to closing the “Gun Show Loophole’ and thus keeping his NRA street cred. Said Lori Haas, whose daughter Emily was shot and wounded in the Virginia Tech massacre, “We told him [Fimian] his remarks were offensive and he apologized. But we also asked him to take a stand for closing the Gun Show Loophole. He would not make that commitment, and on election day Virginia voters punished him at the polls for protecting criminals instead of public safety.”
Makes one proud to be a Virginian today.
Source: Coalition to Stop Gun Violence website
— Mark Esposito, Guest Blogger
Kyle:
“Actually, no, I don’t. Look at the % of firearms that come from gun shows. It’s small. Look at the % of crimes committed with a firearm in 2008. It is also small (7%.)”
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To those victims of gun violence, the numbers are staggering. By your logic, we should ignore terrorism because it happens so infrequently.
Why are you so protective of felons and those so mentally unstable giving them guns would be foolish? Are really that afraid of the bump in the night?
mespo:
“You’ve got to root out the problem by giving the cops the tools to stop these gun show sales.”
Actually, no, I don’t. Look at the % of firearms that come from gun shows. It’s small. Look at the % of crimes committed with a firearm in 2008. It is also small (7%.) Here’s the link for that 7%: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=43
You want to cut back on violent crime, great. Don’t attack a small symptom of the problem (what you call gun violence.) Attack the root causes of violence in the first place!
Let’s have a War on Poverty.
Let’s see a good and valid single payer health care system.
Let’s end the war on drugs.
You gun death stats BS also includes suicides. If you (not ‘you’ but a general you) want to commit suicide, I fully support your decision to. Since more than 1/2 the firearm related deaths in this country come from suicide, you’re look at less than 15k deaths.
Even then, defensive gun use FAR outweighs gun deaths and even gun injuries.
Kyle:
“Why don’t we start with enforcing current laws and IF that doesn’t work, we start thinking about better ways keep firearms from felons or those who are mentally ill? Why don’t we actually punish those who fail the NICS check instead of just letting them go? Why don’t we do more than slap the wrist of a straw purchaser?”
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Everybody’s for better law enforcement. That’s like being for Mom and apple pie. The problem is that your position is a deflection from the problem and a delay to the solution. It’s classic false dichotomy. You’ve got to root out the problem by giving the cops the tools to stop these gun show sales.
Jason:
“Can we stop with the tired Dodge City stuff? We’ve gone from barely two dozen states that allowed normal people to carry concealed to over 40. The feared rivers of blood and shootouts have not materialized.”
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Some stats:
Among 23 populous, high-income countries, 80% of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States (Richardson, p. 1).
Homicide rates in the United States are two to four times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it. Higher rates are found in developing countries and those with political instability. (Committee on Law and Justice (2004). “Chapter 3”. Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review. National Academy of Science.)
The American Medical Association reports that between 36% and 50% of male eleventh graders believe that they could easily get a gun if they wanted one.
Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children’s Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimated 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.
The firearm homicide rate for children under 15 years of age is 16 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (OJJDP Report)
The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) found that after reaching a 50-year low in 2009, the number of American police officers killed in the line of duty (all methods) increased from 61 to 87 individuals (a 43 percent increase) from the first six months of 2009 to the first six months of 2010. Firearm-related deaths increased from 22 to 31 individuals.
U.S. homicide rates are 6.9 times higher than rates in 22 other populous high-income countries combined, despite similar non-lethal crime and violence rates. The firearm homicide rate in the U.S. is 19.5 times higher (Richardson, p.1).
A gun is 22 times more likely to be used in a completed or attempted suicide, criminal assault or homicide, or unintentional shooting death or injury than to be used in a self-defense shooting. (Kellermann, 1998, p. 263).
Guns are used to intimidate and threaten 4 to 6 times more often than they are used to thwart crime (Hemenway, p. 269).
Every year there are only about 200 legally justified self-defense homicides by private citizens (FBI, Expanded Homicide Data, Table 15) compared with over 30,000 gun deaths (NCIPC).
A 2009 study found that people in possession of a gun are 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault (Branas).
It is estimated that over forty percent of gun acquisitions occur in the secondary market. That means that they happen without a Brady background check at a federally licensed dealer (Cook, p. 26).
In Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year.
I guess you’re right. Dodge City (1885) was much safer. Now, we’re in a shooting gallery.
Mespo:
“Now, maybe you can explain to me why you’d wouldn’t want to do everything you could legally to stop felons or unstable people from buying guns.”
Well, first of all, I don’t think supply side gun control laws work. I also think that trying to pass more of them when the ones on the books aren’t already enforced is not the way to go. We pass more laws without checking to see if the first ones even work! I’m all for funding ATF to the point that they can investigate gun shows and arrest people who are doing illegal things.
“As for private sales, I place civil penalities on persons who knowingly sell or permit use of firearms to friends, or family members that are convicted felons or mentally unstable assumimg they know or have reason to know about their disability.”
You know it’s already illegal to supply a felon with firearm/s?
“It’s really not that hard–unless you want it to be. By the way, do you really not want to prevent felons and crazies from getting guns? if not, where should I categorize you?”
Actually it would be that hard. There are millions of legally owned firearms in the United States. How do you go about preventing all private sales? Most are not registered. How do you prevent a seller from just telling the guy, “Hey, I’ll meet you tomorrow at such and such…” and selling the gun away from the gun show? The fact that I’m against a law that would BARELY affect criminals from getting firearms means I really don’t want to prevent felons from getting guns? No. You can categorize me as an extremely hard left/liberal/progressive Right to Keep and Bear Arms Democrat.
“I would also take as pure supposition your assertion that Kyle could have made a difference at Va Tech unless you are going to tell me he would have had perfect knowledge and positioning before the attack began. Otherwise, he’s like everyone else startled by an unthinkable tragedy.”
I might not have made a diffence. It’s entirely possible that if I was there, I’d be dead right now. BUT I’d rather have a fighting chance then just sit there and take it. Charging a firearm wielding nut going on a rampage with your bare hands isn’t advisable.
“Lastly, I don’t want to live in Dodge City circa 1890.”
The Wild West cliche is utter BS. Gun control was rampant in most western towns. You turned your firearms in when you came to town.
“The one law we don’t have is the one regulating gun show sales.”
With good reason: it would be easily circumvented AND would lose the Democrats votes.
“I’d suggest we first do everything we can do to get guns away from felons and crazies and then decide what to do about the rest of the issue. How that is a controversial position, I will never know.”
Why don’t we start with enforcing current laws and IF that doesn’t work, we start thinking about better ways keep firearms from felons or those who are mentally ill? Why don’t we actually punish those who fail the NICS check instead of just letting them go? Why don’t we do more than slap the wrist of a straw purchaser?
The biggest hole that needs to be plugged is that of straw purchases. Unfortunately, it’s not uncommon for these offenders to receive slaps on the wrist when caught. For example, the people who purchased the weapons for the Columbine shooters did relatively little time. Law enforcement needs to start hitting hard at those who buy guns for people they know couldn’t legally purchase them themselves.
Can we stop with the tired Dodge City stuff? We’ve gone from barely two dozen states that allowed normal people to carry concealed to over 40. The feared rivers of blood and shootouts have not materialized.
It is absurd to say what *would* have happened at Virginia Tech had a teacher or student been armed. But it is not wrong to say what *could* have happened. Massacres have been halted or averted due to the intervention of armed, non-law enforcement citizens. It is not unreasonable to propose that an armed opponent at Virginia Tech could have reduced the carnage, and it’s difficult to imagine how they would have made matters worse.
I’m all for keeping guns out of the hands of those too unstable to be trusted. The problem is in the details. How do we report these conditions without violating patient confidentiality? And would doing so reduce the likelihood of some even attempting to get help? And where is the line drawn? Even schizophrenics are non-violent the overwhelming majority of the time. Would garden variety depression trigger a flag?
Otterbay Scribe:
“We do have many dozens of laws on the books designed expressly to do what you desire.”
****************
The one law we don’t have is the one regulating gun show sales. Imagine if we sold cars with no record of title or registration. Are guns that different or that sacred? That most people are responsible is no reason to avoid a law that regulates the irresponsible among us.
Here’s the stats for gun violence in the US that you cited to me from the DOJ report:
Over the 6 years between surveys of inmates,
1991-97, possession of a firearm during a
crime increased from 16% to 18% of State
inmates and from 12% to 15% of Federal inmates.
Because of the growth in the prison population,
the estimated number of inmates carrying a
firearm increased dramatically — from 114,100
in 1991 to 190,400 in 1997 in State prisons
and from 6,300 in 1991 to 12,900 in 1997 in
Federal prisons. These estimates were based
on inmates who reported carrying a firearm
during the offense for which they received
their longest sentence.
(…)
Inmates who had been sentenced for violent
crimes used firearms more often than other
prisoners. They were more likely than property,
drug, or public-order offenders to have used
or possessed a gun during their crime. An
estimated 30% of violent offenders in State
prisons and 35% in Federal prisons had a
firearm at the time of the offense.
~DOJ Survey of 1997
I’d say we have a problem everywhere on this.
Mespo: Getting guns away from crooks and crazies is not at all controversial. However, trying to plug leaks that are not really leaks is not a good use of limited resources. We do have many dozens of laws on the books designed expressly to do what you desire. The laws we have need to be enforced.
Keep in mind there are millions of firearms of every description out there. The vast majority of gun owners are responsible and careful. No one knows what the ratio of gun owners to crooks and crazies are, but I daresay there are far more good citizens than bad, when it comes to guns and their use. I live in an area where the ratio of firearms to people is well over 100% in favor of gun ownership. In other words, there are way more guns than people. We do not have much gun crime at all. Hunting and fishing are major sports here, and for some people it is not sport. People living on marginal incomes hunt for food. A deer in the freezer is a lot of meat that does not have to come from the supermarket.
Otteray Scribe:
I’m might not take the word of an expert on the harm done by gun violence like Mayor Jones. But I would certainly take a study by the ATF who is charged with preventing the spread of illegal firearms over a survey of felons run by BOP. I would also take as pure supposition your assertion that Kyle could have made a difference at Va Tech unless you are going to tell me he would have had perfect knowledge and positioning before the attack began. Otherwise, he’s like everyone else startled by an unthinkable tragedy. Lastly, I don’t want to live in Dodge City circa 1890. There’s a reason those folks eschewed that life-style. I’d suggest we first do everything we can do to get guns away from felons and crazies and then decide what to do about the rest of the issue. How that is a controversial position, I will never know.
Mespo: I will stand by the figures from DoJ, since they are credible. As an attorney, if you were cross examining an expert, wouldn’t you go for the throat if the expert’s source of data were the Mayor’s article in a local newspaper? The fact remains, that of guns seized from felons, the total sourced from gun shows and flea markets amount to less than two percent. Those figures seem to hold steady pretty much year to year.
I agree that the mentally unstable ought not to have firearms and I personally have removed firearms from the hands of mentally unstable individuals. Unfortunately, many are not in the system, and even if someone is committed to a mental hospital, given the state of privacy laws under HIPAA, they are not reported into the system. The Virginia Tech shooter bought his guns legally and passed the background check. Not much we can do about that.
Perhaps the answer is for responsible citizens who get the proper training and vetting will be permitted concealed carry in public places, including on campuses. I know Kyle who posted above. Had he been in that building that day, the shooter would not have made it past getting off his first few rounds. Same if my pretty college student daughter been there in that building with a firearm. She is not the victim type and wants to be a police officer, but she is not allowed to carry concealed on campus.
Kyle:
I’d suggest computers at the entrance to the gun show that could run the checks as you shop for your needed semi AK-47, Nazi flag, Bowie knife, .22 pistol, or M72A2 LAWs rocket — disarmed of course. Once the check is run you could present your picture id again and receive the ok to buy. If they walk out to avoid the law and a vendor follows with the weapon possessing the intent to sell it to them, we’d treat him like every other person seeking to circumvent the law. Random checks by undercover police with a mandatory 24 month prison sentence should do the trick. As for private sales, I place civil penalities on persons who knowingly sell or permit use of firearms to friends, or family members that are convicted felons or mentally unstable assumimg they know or have reason to know about their disability. We do this with automobiles now.
It’s really not that hard–unless you want it to be. By the way, do you really not want to prevent felons and crazies from getting guns? if not, where should I categorize you?
Byron,
The acronym is supposed to be BADAM (Bachmann’s Armed & Dangerous Army of Minnesotans) but Bachmann’s militia has trouble spelling.
mespo727272:
It’s not a loophole because vendors ARE required to run the background check, even if they’re at a gunshow. Private sellers aren’t vendors.
Maybe you can explain to me how you’d enforce mandating NICS checks for every transaction at gun shows? And what’s to keep people from just walking out into the parking lot?
Here’s a diary from DailyKos about it. I’m KVoimakas there, so you can see my comments.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/10/30/915084/-RKBAGun-Show-Loop-Holestop-lying-about-it.
Enjoy.
Otteray Scribe:
You’ve presented a study in 1997 by the DOJ which relied on surveys of actual felons. You certainly have very right to take their word for it since we know they are exceedingly credible and have no motive to lie about where they get their armament, but I prefer the more scientific one done by ATF in 2000:
“A prior review of ATF gun show investigations shows that prohibited persons, such as convicted felons and juveniles, do personally buy firearms at gun shows and gun shows are sources of firearms that are trafficked to such prohibited persons. The gun show review found that firearms were diverted at and through gun shows by straw purchasers, unregulated private sellers, and licensed dealers. Felons were associated with selling or purchasing firearms in 46 percent of the gun show investigations. Firearms that were illegally diverted at or through gun shows were recovered in subsequent crimes, including homicide and robbery, in more than a third of the gun show investigations.”
Kyle:
“So explain to me, please, how it’s a loophole.”
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It’s a loophole because it is an exception to federal law which requires vendors to run background checks to keep guns out of the hands of felons and those mentally unstable. It’s such a big loophole that ATF routinely stakes out gun shows to check on this growing problem of private sellers arming felons. For example, “in 2009 alone, 2,557 guns sold in Virginia ended up being used in out-of-state crimes; only Florida and Georgia exported more crime guns than Virginia. The statistics paint a clear picture: Criminals who want easy access to guns know that Virginia is the place to go.”(Richmond, Va Mayor, Dwight Jones, on “Closing the Gun Show Loophole, ” Richmond Times Dispatch, 9/29/2010)
Even a private owner may not sell a gun to a person whom he has reason to believe is a felon or mentally unstable. You are subject to both criminal penalties and civil liability if you do and harm results whether in a McDonald’s parking lot or not.
We’ve got 35 graves with young people in them as testimony to the problem of guns getting into the hands of mentally unstable people. Now, maybe you can explain to me why you’d wouldn’t want to do everything you could legally to stop felons or unstable people from buying guns.
Byron,
Is BADAF (Bachmann’s Armed & Dangerous Army of Minnesotans)on the list of choices? I hear they’re getting really cool uniforms.
The gun show loophole is a straw man argument. From the DoJ web site, we find that only about 0.6 % of weapons seized from offenders come from gun shows. Depending on the year, about 1.0% to 1.3% come from flea markets. So, less than two percent of crime guns come from gun shows or flea markets. Most come from private sales.
Source:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/fuo.txt
Mass murder by government ONLY happens when citizens are disarmed (or poorly armed).
The Democrats push for a disarmed citizenry, little by little, step by step.
Republicans push in the opposite direction.
So choose this day who you will support: those who promote conduct that leads to mass murder (the Dems) or those who oppose it (the Reps).
Now, no one is perfect and gun rights folks do stupid things. But the facts are that gun owners in general are very law abiding and generally handle their weapons safely.
As opposed to government officials all over the world last century who murdered about 100 million unarmed civilians.
These were mostly Marxists. You know, like the Democratic Party.
Apologies for the various errors.
It should be every time you SELL a weapon.
The gun show loophole is a fake term to rile up gun grabbers on both sides of the aisle.
It’s like partial birth abortion. Or assault weapon.
If you’re an FFL, you need to run a background check EVERY TIME YOU SEE A WEAPON. (For those of you who don’t know, an FFL is a federally licensed firearm dealer. If you sell guns for profit [big chunk of your income], you need to be an FFL or you’re breaking the law.)
If you’re a private seller, you DON’T need to run a background check unless your state requires it.
I live in Michigan. If I want to sell my 12 gauge to a guy in a gun show, there is no background check. If I want to sell him a firearm at work (something I’ve done with my boss’s permission before actually) THERE IS NO BACKGROUND CHECK.
McDonald’s parking lot? No background check.
Side of the road? No background check.
So explain to me, please, how it’s a loophole.