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Torture is still Torture, and it is Still Illegal.

Submitted by Lawrence Rafferty,(rafflaw), Guest Blogger

 This entire week the torture enthusiasts have been back on all of the news channels exclaiming their happiness that their “enhanced interrogation techniques” worked.  Of course, they are talking about waterboarding and other methods of torture. Why are Michael Mukasey, John Yoo and other members of the George W. Bush administration once again declaring that torture is good policy and that it was successful in helping to get Osama Bin Laden?

“Osama bin Laden was killed by Americans, based on intelligence developed by Americans. That should bring great satisfaction to our citizens and elicit praise for our intelligence community. Seized along with bin Laden’s corpse was a trove of documents and electronic devices that should yield intelligence that could help us capture or kill other terrorists and further degrade the capabilities of those who remain at large.  But policies put in place by the very administration that presided over this splendid success promise fewer such successes in the future. Those policies make it unlikely that we’ll be able to get information from those whose identities are disclosed by the material seized from bin Laden. The administration also hounds our intelligence gatherers in ways that can only demoralize them.  Consider how the intelligence that led to bin Laden came to hand. It began with a disclosure from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM), who broke like a dam under the pressure of harsh interrogation techniques that included waterboarding. He loosed a torrent of information—including eventually the nickname of a trusted courier of bin Laden.”  Wall Street Journal

The quote above was from an op-ed written by the former Attorney General of the United State, Michael Mukasey. It seems that Gen. Mukasey is now a big proponent of torture techniques and he even makes the unfounded claim that the name of the courier that eventually led the United States to Osama Bin Laden was obtained through the “harsh interrogation techniques”.  It is amazing to me that Mukasey who was a Federal judge before being named Attorney General, would be ignorant of the illegality of waterboarding.  Doesn’t Mukasey remember that the United States prosecuted Japanese soldiers after WWII for waterboarding American personnel and we also prosecuted American servicemen for waterboarding prisoners during the Vietnam War?

Gen. Mukasey even complains that President Obama did the country a disservice by eliminating the torture techniques from the government’s arsenal.  He further attacks the Obama administration for investigating the CIA operatives who were involved in the torture of detainees.  Gen. Mukasey just can’t get enough torture. An article in Firedoglake.com claims that Mukasey’s feigned concern for the CIA agents being investigated is a farce because the Wikileaks documents proved that the United States was using the alleged investigation into the CIA agent’s as a mechanism for convincing the Spanish authorities that their planned investigation into the torture carried out by American agents was unnecessary.

“In other words, what this cable shows is the genesis of the plan–on the day after the torture memos were released–to forestall international investigations of US torture by claiming that the US is itself conducting an investigation. It’s a claim that continues to this day.  It’s not a surprise that the Obama Administration has been pointing to its own investigations–credible or not–to persuade the international community not to hold our torturers accountable. But it is useful to see how the diplomats and the lawyers first hatched that plan.” Firedoglake.com

One of the authors of the infamous Torture Memos, John Yoo, also came out in favor of the torture techniques and he also tries to assert that torture played a role in obtaining the information needed to find and kill Osama Bin Laden.  “Also, buried in the stories may be yet another sign of the vindication of the Bush administration’s war on terror policies. Anonymous government sources say that the al Qaeda courier who led our intelligence people to bin Laden was a protege of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of the 9/11 attacks who was captured in 2002, subjected to enhanced interrogation methods, and yielded a trove of intelligence on al Qaeda. Those same sources admit that interrogation of al Qaeda leaders, presumably by the CIA, yielded the identity of the courier. That identity was then combined into a mosaic of other information from other detainee interrogations, electronic intercepts, and sources in other countries, to eventually identify bin Laden’s hideout.” American Enterprise Institute

It seems painfully obvious to this reader that Prof. Yoo and Gen. Mukasey are trying to rewrite history, as well as rewrite our laws on interrogation.  There is no evidence torture had anything to do with the finding of and killing of Osama Bin Laden.  Even Senator Lindsey Graham admits to that as does Senator Barbara Feinstein.  Think Progress    “Not all Republicans are claiming that bin Laden’s killing vindicates torture. At a Capitol press conference Tuesday afternoon, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) stood apart from his colleagues in the GOP. “This idea we caught bin Laden because of waterboarding I think is a misstatement,” he said. “This whole concept of how we caught bin Laden is a lot of work over time by different people and putting the puzzle together. I do not believe this is a time to celebrate waterboarding, I believe this is a time to celebrate hard work.” Talking Points Memo

The Bush Administration officials seem to be attempting to rewrite history by claiming their illegal torture techniques aided in the search for Bin Laden.  In former Attorney Gen. Mukasey and Prof. Yoo’s cases, they are both asserting that torture is effective and that is legal.  That’s right.  According to the Torture Twins, Mukasey and Yoo, they claim that waterboarding is legal.  Although I agree that President Obama has done the country a disservice by not prosecuting the officials who authorized and carried out the torture during the Bush administration, by no means does that inaction make waterboarding legal.  I guess if the Bush apologists keep saying it enough, they hope that Americans will believe them.  Mukasey and Yoo both sold out their souls for their jobs and their President.  I hope they can sleep at night.

98 thoughts on “Torture is still Torture, and it is Still Illegal.”

  1. Good job Buddha.
    Bobby,
    Torture is illegal it it will not save my family or yours. You have bought into the lie from the Republicans who are trying to rewrite history to show that they helped stopped terrorism. Of course, history shows us they keep wanting to forget about 9/11! and Buddha is right on when he says if we continue to torture, not only do we make recruitment easier for al-Qaeda, we have given up our heart and souls.

  2. And if you’re willing to violate the Constitution, Federal law and international treaty for revenge and a “maybe but not likely” intel source, Bobby?

    Then I think we’re screwed.

    Congratulations.

    You just became the American that bin Laden always wanted you to become.

  3. Rafflaw,

    You wouldn’t care if it was your family that was killed. Even if it doesn’t work, all necessary measures should be taken to save the American people. Would you rather the CIA not have tortured a suspect for intelligence that may or may not lead to breaking up a terrorist plot, or should we just roll over when nothing else works?
    Oh, and what is your perception of our “transparent government” anyway? No other illegal activities go on? I’m not buying that. If this is the worst thing we do, something that CAN lead to information that saves lives, then I think we’re in pretty good shape.

  4. Bobby,
    There is not one shred of evidence that torture works. There is not a shred of evidence that we learned anything useful in all of the Bush regime’s torture episodes. Finally, you must have forgotten that torture, that includes waterboarding, is illegal! Plain and simple.

  5. Sticks and stones will not break Dick’s bones! Come on people! The people who are being “tortured” are the people who have tortured and continue to torture thousands of families. Grow a pair and do what has to be done.

  6. Bobby,

    “Our country wouldn’t be in as good a shape as we are now if not for waterboarding and the intelligence we’ve gained as a result of its use. Thanks to these torture techniques (not thanks to the President), we are now able to fully pursue prosperity.”

    Is that a fact? Where are you getting your information from…Chickenhawk Dick Cheney and his lying-for-daddy daughter Liz–as well as other Bush Administration proponents of torture like John Yoo?

  7. What’s wrong with torturing terrorists! Our country wouldn’t be in as good a shape as we are now if not for waterboarding and the intelligence we’ve gained as a result of its use. Thanks to these torture techniques (not thanks to the President), we are now able to fully pursue prosperity. This nation will be the safest place to live in the world, and there is nothing unethical about that!!!!

  9. The most frequent rationalization I’ve heard for torture is the “ticking time bomb” scenario. Even in the unlikely case that evidence obtained under torture was the seed from which last week’s elimination of Bin Ladin was grown, it took at least six years.

    As I understand the story, Bush banned waterboarding early in his second term, around 2005. That the seed bore fruit in 2011 implies that the “ticking time bomb” would have gone off a long time ago.

  10. Ms. EM,

    I just listened to the audio clip. Thanks.

  14. FF Leo,

    Greenwald was on Talk of the Nation today.

    Here’s the summary and link:
    May 9, 2011 Salon columnist Glenn Greenwald says the U.S. government keeps changing its story about the mission that killed Osama bin Laden, which affects his take on whether it was legally or ethically justified. Greenwald explains what he calls “the bin Laden exception.”

    http://www.npr.org/2011/05/09/136144260/op-ed-bin-laden-exception-doesnt-justify-killing

    NOTE: The audio of the program won’t be available until 6:00 pm EST.

  16. Good topic article rafflaw. Regarding the supposed “GE” typo, I thought you meant it as typed; that is, the company GE should also be behind bars.

    Here is a recent, excellent video by Glenn Greenwald discussing our loss of civil liberties pursuant to the Global War on Terror.

    Glenn is an excellent speaker, a bone fide constitutional lawyer, and he don’t need no stinkin’ teleprompter…

  17. As always, the real problem is the lack of a definition of torture. The definition is so vague that anything can be labeled torture and sadly, much of what is obviously torture can be claimed to not fall within the definition.

    When a lap dance is called torture due to the prisoner’s religion, when simply disrespecting or embarrassing a prisoner is called torture we have a problem. It make the debate that much more impossible without a definition of what we are debating on.

    Look at such tricks as telling the prisoner if he doesn’t talk he will be publicly released and money will be deposited in his bank account “as a way of saying sorry”. The prisoner panics explains that people will think he talked and he ends up talking to avoid being killed. You could easily say he wasn’t tortured but that is only because you threatened him with torture by a 3rd party. Telling the prisoner if he doesn’t talk he will be charged with more serious crimes with more serious consequences is another common tool. Especially if the way to prove the crime wasn’t committed by the prisoner is for the prisoner to divulge information. Again, certainly not torturous on the face, but again no different than holding a gun to his head and telling him to be a rat of die. Is one torture but the other isn’t? It isn’t an easy question.

    Waterboarding was authorized because TPTB decided it didn’t fall within the definition. They could do that not just because there was no one to tell them HELL NO, but because the definition is so vague.

    Of course I have no idea what a suitable definition would be. I fear there really isn’t one. Heck for me, simply being locked up would be more torture than I could handle. Lap dances on the other hand? Those I could handle.

  18. Thanks Lawerence… good piece… AND thanks to all the folks out there that have believed for long time, that the LAWS on the books of the US were put there for a reason and should be strengthened not ground into dust as Woo and his fake-lawyering who have us believe.

    ONE other detail these clowns may have over-looked as they decided this week that flapping their lips in the wind, discussing what THEY DID either to support MORE torture or actually practiced it themselves. Every day – all day a lone Government long-range cargo plane sits prepared – supplies and personnel – ready to fly a final rendition mission taking Chimpy bush, darth AND Lizzy cheeeney, Woo, Addington, Gonzales, and all other purveyors of all things surrounding the Geneva Conventions in tatters, directly to the Hague…For their WAR CRIMES trials for their wars prosecuted in the middle-east and openly and publicly admitted support of and approval for the use of TORTURE in Cuba… mostly against known, not-guilty personnel…

    That plane WILL fly…Full….soon…..

  20. These guys are the face of American Fascism in its ascendancy. -LilyRose

    And that’s the crux of it…

    Thanks for telling it like it it, LilyRose.

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