-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger
United States District Judge for the Western District of Louisiana, Dee Dodson Drell, has upheld the district court finding that an Alexandria, Louisiana, ordinance banning fortune-tellers is unconstitutional. Drell said that banning fortune-telling is a violation of the First Amendment’s right to free speech.
The city of Alexandria argued the business of fortune-telling is a fraud and inherently deceptive.
Rachel Adams, a fortune-teller, sued the city after a police officer issued her a court summons in 2011 for violating the ordinance. She was not surprised by the court’s ruling.
Adams claims she doesn’t charge for her services but accepts “donations.” Are the “donations” accepted prior to the services being performed?
While fortune-telling is certainly speech, can it be classified as fraud? If the clients do not have a reasonable basis to expect that the fortune-teller possesses the ability to predict the future, then the clients are victims of their own stupidity.
In criminal law, fraud is a false representation of a matter of fact that deceives, and since the future is not, yet, a fact, it is impossible for the fortune-teller to misrepresent something that is not a fact.
The “readings” associated with palmistry, astrology, card reading, and fortune-telling, are so vague that they can apply to anyone. The clients themselves, correlate what they’re being told and find “matches” that make the “readings” appear accurate. The good “readers” pick up on subtle clues unknowingly provided by the clients to further the illusion of psychic abilities.
James Randi, Hugh Laurie, and Stephen Fry:
OK, David B, here’s one for the books.
I had a friend who did not advertise OR charge money for fortune-telling but who counted herself as a psychic and was reportedly able to see the future. I lived in a basement apartment in DC at the time. She called me from California at 7 a.m. so it was 4 a.m. her time when the phone rang. She was in a state of high anxiety, telling me she was awakened with a dream of absolute danger to me, PHYSICAL DANGER, and she told me over and over that I must not leave home, because I was at a high risk of getting killed outright by “REAL PHYSICAL DANGER!!!” She ranted and raved at me because I said I would be really really careful but I had to go to Library of Congress — she wouldn’t get off the phone (and I was too polite to hang up on her) until I promised her I wouldn’t leave the house.
I waited until about 1 p.m. because I knew she’d call back and those were not cell phone days. I answered the phone twice after that. I said, Yes, Dear, I have decided to listen to you, yes yes yes, I won’t leave. Finally I said I was just overcome with fatigue and was going to have a nap, please not to wake me up. She was satisfied I was listening to her. Then I left and rushed down to Library of Congress — had to look something up before it closed. Rushed back home.
Couldn’t get the door open. Unlocked the top lock, unlocked the bottom lock, couldn’t get the damned door OPEN. Finally got it open an inch and peered in — something was blocking it.
The ceiling had caved in. Huge metal beams were lying on the ground and all the ceiling tiles had fallen, breaking everything in sight. One huge beam had landed exactly where I used to sit at the computer (which was just a word processor thingy in those days) and would have definitely killed me had I been there at the time. Two beams had smashed the sofa where I would have been napping had I done THAT. There was so much dust all over the place from the destruction that it looked like a cloud and had not yet settled by the time I arrived, in shock. I picked my way through the mess and called the landlord. I never told my friend from California because I thought she would be very sad and upset that her prediction, while right, would have gotten me maimed or killed had I listened. The message would have been bad for both of us. Nowadays I LISTEN TO HER. But I still don’t go to fortune tellers. Yet, I think I should hae the right to do so if I choose.
@Malisha
You and David have both told interesting stories so thank you both. I think I am more comfortable with David’s in that it sort of confirms my belief system.
Your story is really interesting but how do we fit it in. Some might shrug and dismiss the story with a remark like ‘anecdotal’.
The problem with that is that there is nothing wrong with anecdotal evidence. There can be problems when people try to go from anecdotal evidence to conclusions. But anecdotal evidence, along with dreams, and most any other experience can be the ore from which we refine testable hypothesis.
But what can we do with a story like yours? And, of course, your story is not the only one like that. For lack of a better term I will call stories like yours ‘premonition events’. There are actually quite a few stories with some features or aspects very similar to yours.
But how can we deal with them and fit them in to some kind of structure. It is not as though we can ask you and your friend to go back and repeat the experience 10 times and keep good notes while you do it. It is not likely that we can select a sample of, say, 100 women, attach electrodes to measure various activity, and after few months announce ‘this is what happens during a premonition event.
So you story is really interesting. And I am glad to hear that it all worked out. But a usual you are challenging our conventional beliefs causing us to rethink our assumptions.
I delivered mail to a fortune teller lady for a few years. (she was a pleasent happy and wonderful person)…anyways, one day I had her tax refund check. By happenstance she was outside. I asked her ” Guess what I have for you today Mrs. X” …. Well shiver me timbers!!! she did not know.
What more proof does a rational person need.
“In criminal law, fraud is a false representation of a matter of fact that deceives, and since the future is not, yet, a fact, it is impossible for the fortune-teller to misrepresent something that is not a fact”
Futures market, credit default swaps and derivative trades, AHA, now I know why there are no prosecutions going on against wall st speculators.
BFM: I wasn’t suggesting regulation of fortune-teller businesses. I was saying that if there was a governmental interest in regulating the telling of things that may lead to fraud, there was a way to establish it (totally unnecessary and absolutely unworkable, like most legislation, by the way), NOT that I advocated it. Obviously just plain outlawing speech because it can lead to fraud is not envisioned in the Constitution. Of course, in practical times…
Mr. Turley…as one of the foremost constitutional lawyers in this country…can you give us your analysis of the Vance v. Rumsfeld case and do you think a similar Bivens case could be brought agains the Bush administration????
Bigger scandal than Fast and Furious….Vance v. Rumsfeld whistle blowers reported on gun running in Iraq…have torture suit against Bush Rumsfeld
… http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1576930.html …
Mr. Turley…can you give us an update and more information
about the suits you have filed on Area 51 workers and their
exposure to toxic chemicals…i believe NATGEO played a clip
from an interview with you on the subject that was very interesting
… http://www.8newsnow.com/story/190225/area-51?clienttype=printable
Dredd 1, July 14, 2012 at 12:35 pm
bigfatmike 1, July 14, 2012 at 10:23 am
@Dredd ‘KKK participation in public parades was once held to be protected as well.’
As I have mentioned before, I am no friend of the Klan. But you have suggested something that had not heard of or considered before.
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Here is a case from New York City while Giuliani was mayor:
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/10/22/nyregion/court-orders-city-to-allow-protest-by-ku-klux-klan.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Fraud is fraud regardless of the merits of the market…..
bigfatmike 1, July 14, 2012 at 10:23 am
@Dredd ‘KKK participation in public parades was once held to be protected as well.’
As I have mentioned before, I am no friend of the Klan. But you have suggested something that had not heard of or considered before.
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Here is an example case: Nationalist Socialist Party v Skokie 432 U.S. 43 (1977).
@Dredd
Thank you for your responses. I have vague recollections of the news reports re: Skokie. But over the years I had completely forgotten the details of these interesting stories.
Come on. Is it fraud to preach life everlasting or, on the other hand, that there is no life-everlasting? Religion and the religion of non-religion have been bilking mankind forever.
If there is such a thing as reincarnation, I like to think I was a witch doctor at some point and I can entertain myself with that thought for hours … a self-induced fraud.
I was in New Orleans the year before Katrina. It was evening and we were taking a carriage ride through the Quarter. Our carriage driver had lived in New Orleans for 21 years. He also told fortunes and liked to do so in front of St. Louis Cathedral in Jackson Square. There was a negotiated fee established for the carriage ride and a donation accepted for the palm reading. The whole package was pure entertainment.
He was born and raised on a ranch in Montana. He came to New Orleans on vacation when he was 30 years old and never went home.
I wonder if he made it through Katrina. I hope so.
How often will I jump into this blog to defend a judge or even a judge’s court ruling, but here I am.
Obviously fortune-telling is protected free speech and the right to charge money for it is, in my opinion, no different than the right to charge money for writing poetry — good work if you can find it.
If someone WANTS to go to a fortune-teller and they WANT to listen to what that fortune-teller has to say, how is ANY of this activity unprotected by the Constitution that gives us the perfect right to indulge in any foolishness that we choose, so long as we do not violate any criminal laws or hurt anyone else in the meantime? I can’t understand anybody finding the activity even minimally objectionable so long as it is not imposed upon those who do not want to participate.
Furthermore, if the government wants to REGULATE the industry of fortune-telling, let it go ahead and do THAT. Perhaps a fortune-teller should have to hand everyone a paper, and collect a signature, saying that they have a release to say whatever it is they are about to say. Even that, if you think about it, would cost a lot of tax dollars and wouldn’t make much difference to anybody in the long run.
@Malisha
What next Malisha, licensing requirements for fortune tellers. How many CLU’s does it take every 5 years to keep your license active.
Anyone know what the government position is on stock brokers and financial annalists? What about banks?
Some of us would have done better if we had put our life savings with a good fortune teller.
At least with a fortune teller sensible people know to be a bit skeptical.
@Dredd ‘KKK participation in public parades was once held to be protected as well.’
As I have mentioned before, I am no friend of the Klan. But you have suggested something that had not heard of or considered before.
Are there jurisdictions that restrict public parades or demonstrations by the Klan as an organization or individual members of the Klan?
I am pretty sure there are jurisdictions that would restrict display of a noose or the burning of a cross. But, are there restrictions on the wearing of the traditional Klan uniform, or other identifying Klan insignia. And what about restrictions on demonstrations by the Klan which is after all, (I think???), a political organization.
I don’t really know the legal status of the Klan. Does any one have definitive information regarding the legal status of the Klan today?
OK, OK maybe this is a bit of a tangent, but if you think I am going to go crazy over some geek hustling a few bucks from a rube – well give me $5 and I will tell you the future – part of it anyway.
Mespo: “If the law’s function is to find the truth how can condoning fraud on the unwitting be lawful?”
Funny, I thought law was not a search for truth but for process.
Speaking of truth and condoning fraud on the unwitting….
Tell us more about the war on “terror.”
Why can’t I declare war on real “enemies” like pedophiles?
“People have to think these things through, . . .”
I believe six countries have banned scientology for pretty much the same reasons. Other countries refuse to recognize it as a religion. Apparently, there is no rational basis for its beliefs, it’s a rip off in its practices, and it is totalitarian in control.
But where does it stop? What about Mormons? Islam? Hedge Funds? Virtually every candidate for federal office (please, can’t we at least make these people shut up)?
Why not let the blathering deceivers keep on deceiving blathering idiots? Any remedy is probably worse — maybe only incrementally, but incrementally is how landslides begin.
“She was not surprised by the court’s ruling.” Like, wow man, she must be psychic!
“even though:, not “even thought”
KKK participation in public parades was once held to be protected as well.
People have to think these things through, but unfortunately when people get desperate our cognition suffers some in quality, and we can fall prey to some of these people, even thought some of them may sincerely believe they can peer into the fog.
Leaders in government, science, and medicine must project into the future when making various plans, meteorologists too, but there is an area where people take advantage of others, as Nal has pointed out.
Confessions at the local pedophile Catolic Church is a fraud on the public too and ought to be outlawed. Same with Mormonism. About the only thing coming out of relious mouths is the truth that on the eighth day the Lard created Dog. And if you dont believe in the Lard then switch to Crisco.
Drell said that banning fortune-telling is a violation of the First Amendment’s right to free speech.
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Pure silliness with judicial approbation. If the law’s function is to find the truth how can condoning fraud on the unwitting be lawful? I suppose proposing to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge is also protected free speech as well.
Is the bible protected speech….. There is certainly future predictions in there some place…..