The Senate report is out and linked below. It is remarkable in both its candor and breadth. I was particularly moved by watching Sen. John McCain, a victim of torture, explaining to his colleagues why this country must not only condemn this torture program but come clean about our failure to meet the fundamental values that define us as a people. It was a true profile of courage — an all too rare moment in our contemporary politics where a politician transcends politics and stand boldly on a higher moral ground. What McCain showed was the difference between a politician and a statesman. He proved himself to be the latter this afternoon.
While I have been critical of Feinstein in the past, I considered this speech to be also her finest hour. While I have criticized the lack action from the committee over the years on this issue, Feinstein did overcome considerable pressure from the intelligence community to bury the report. As the video below shows, McCain called the use of the torture was “shameful” regardless of whether it was effective.
What is most remarkable is the direct identification of people like Hayden, Muller, and others who are accused of giving false information to Congress. This record is combined with the admission that dozens of videotapes were destroyed shortly after the CIA was informed that the legality of the program had been raised. The absence of any criminal charges creates an obvious and troubling disconnect given this lengthy account.
It was equally chilling to not only read of the death of one detainee of possible hyperthermia but the fact that two psychologists created a company and received $80 million for their clearly unethical role in the torture program.
Notably, while the President has repeated his condemnation of the program, there remains a disconnect with the actions of his Administration. The CIA continues to oppose the release of the report and, more importantly, shows a continuing failure to appreciate the depth of the criminal character of this torture program. The CIA issued a statement that again claims that the program was “effective.” As I have discussed in prior columns, it does not matter whether torture is effective or ineffective. It is not just a crime but a war crime. The continued effort of the CIA to claim that it got something positive from torture only reaffirms the view of a rogue agency.
Here is the report: Senate Report
“I suspect those who had their throats slit and head cut off on Youtube videos might disagree, if they could.”
Again, more deflection. As are your references to what occurred on 9/11. All you’re doing is feeding me fallacious appeals to emotion that I really couldn’t care less about, at least as far as this specific conversation is concerned.
Or, to perhaps phrase it in a way that you might better understand – human history is full of barbaric behavior – people have fell victim to fates much worse than those who have had their throats slit by ISIS or by collapsing buildings destroyed by terrorists. Your “naivete” regarding what happens in life is “bordering on hilarious”
…Do you see how hollow these kinds of statements are?
diogenesthegreat the great said …
Aridog, … Bringing attention to this long history comes across as nothing more than as a means to deflect.
We are going to disagree, because I see it a means to provide perspective…and one of the recent prompts for me was the citation (not by you) of only the Bush 43 administration people for ordering to court.
I will agree that bad things have been done in all administrations, more or less, which IMO makes my point. We are quick to accuse but slow to propose alternatives that work (in short, we repeat our mistakes without divining the causes)…or reflect the pressure on those who fight in battle or face crisis otherwise. Your view point narrows and you just may do whatever it takes to defeat, and yes, hurt the enemy.
diogenesthegreat said…
It literally doesn’t matter what treaties ISIS, Al Qaeda, or whoever else you happen to be fighting do and do not follow
I suspect those who had their throats slit and head cut off on Youtube videos might disagree, if they could.
Same for those making swan dives head first from 80 odd stories up for face plants on the concrete might as well…those images still haunt me. Just as the courage does of the police and firemen of NYC who climbed up the down staircases, many knowing they’d not come back.
These things make you angry if you are like me and you might not be equitable about it vis a vis some “conventions.” I’ve said little on this long thread because it is a bit too close to me and I know I am biased. What I have said I have tried to make neutral and merely notations of events.
Aridog, I could (and others actually have) write an entire series of books cataloging the depressingly long list of human rights abuses committed by the US government dating all the way back to 1776. Whether or not any of this sort of behavior is “new” is completely irrelevant to any worthwhile discussion on this topic. Bringing attention to this long history comes across as nothing more than as a means to deflect.
@Jim22, 4:09 pm
The website you reference is clearly biased and any “information” displayed therein is suspect.
This website was created by a group of former CIA officials with hundreds of years of combined service. They all have first-hand knowledge that the CIA’s interrogation program was authorized, legal and effective. They also have in common that during its 5+ year investigation, the SSCI did not bother to contact them and seek their views.
Personanongrata … since I mentioned the Phoenix Program earlier, I am puzzled you haven’t also cited the entirety of the LBJ and Nixon administrations as well for jurisprudence evaluation.
This thread just reeks of naiveté’ regarding what happens in war, this one and most of the past ones in my lifetime. Just the idea, expressed by some, that the US Senate has suddenly revealed new evil-bad-hoo-hah things is bordering on hilarious. Do some research just on the program I cited then tell me how bad rendition et al was in comparison. I am arguing neither for or against what was done then or now….just noting that very little of all this is new, and certainly not beneath our enemies as well. Then or now.
I am inclined to take what I got from Professor Turley’s remarks on CNN as worth my attention…essentially that we are supposed to be the good guys, who abide the rule of law, and we need to act like it. If I am wrong, he will correct me.
Article 2 of the third Geneva Convention:
“Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations.”
It literally doesn’t matter what treaties ISIS, Al Qaeda, or whoever else you happen to be fighting do and do not follow
diogenesthegreat, Would this be the Geneva Conventions that Isis follows so well?
Jim22 – does anyone remember either ISIS or ISIL signing the Geneva Accords?
diogenesthegreat, Didn’t we make that decision once in 1945?
I’m glad we have them.
http://www.ciasavedlives.com/
Jim22,
“So it is not U.S. law?”
Article VI, Clause 2 of the US constitution:
“…[A]ll treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, SHALL BE THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND….” (emphasis added)
“Also, who gets to decide…”
Prosecutors, judges, ect, you know – the justice system; that’s their job after all. And I really don’t think determining violations of the Geneva Conventions as they apply to the torture of detainees as a particularly difficult task. The talking points, euphemisms and agitprop used to justify this sadism has certainly clouded the American public’s perception on this issue, but legally speaking it is quite clear that abuses not only took place, but were systemic.
And Eric, let me ask you this hypothetical – morality and logistics aside, if the Bush or Obama administration made the determination that the only way to sufficiently solve the problem posed by radical Islamic terrorism was by turning the Arabian peninsula and any other significant population cluster that was inhabited by Jihadists and potential Jihadists into glass, would that be legally justifiable? I ask this because you keep saying how congress basically told the white house do “whatever is necessary” to get the job done. Well, does that mean that genocide becomes permissible under the law? If not, why?
John Yoo’ testicles should be crushed…
… Because to him, crushing the testicles of a young man is permissible.
BTW
Where is the outrage from the moderate law society?
SENATE REPORT: U.S. TORTURE PROGRAM “MORE BRUTAL” THAN PREVIOUSLY DISCLOSED AND CIA OFFICIALS GAVE FALSE INFORMATION TO CONGRESS
That’s one small step for congress, next up, one giant leap for justice.
When do the prosecutions of George Walker Bush, Richard Bruce Cheney, Donald Henry Rumsfeld, Colin Luther Powell, John David Ashcroft, George John Tenet, Jay Scott Bybee, John Choon Yoo, Condoleezza Rice, et al begin?
Anything short of hauling the above cretins into court to defend themselves for conspiring in the use of torture against their fellow human beings will be measured and found lacking.
All the words in the world, typed by all the world’s apologists cannot obscure the plain and simple truth that the orders to employe use of torture originated in the upper echelons of the George Walker Bush administration.
Jill: “None of it is legal.”
See my comment to Maureen McCarthy at December 10, 2014 at 12:44 am and to Mike Appleton at December 10, 2014 at 11:31 am regarding “implied repeal” analysis when two federal statutes conflict.
Chuck,
“On second thought, I will be posting my commentary on the torture issue elsewhere. I am more interested in intelligent discussion than junior high level sniping.”
As am I. Please reconsider. I agree with Aridog on this–your voice is valued here. You brought up some legitimate concerns regarding the participation of people in your profession. I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. Do you think they should lose their licenses?
Eric, Didn’t you know that Isis just needs a hug and everything will be just wonderful. Hey, I’m all for being an isolationist, but if you are going to go and fight you do it to win. It is ugly and it sucks but to do it half-assed is what keeps the body bag manufacturers in business.
Jill, Posting a link from a site that claims to be “the flagship of the left” doesn’t instill non-biased reporting. Doesn’t the title even make you laugh a little? “The CIA’s Secret Sites in Somalia” They are so secret that we know all of this stuff about them.
“There is murder, breaking limbs, anal rape.” Is this claimed in the Senate Report?
If you were being held at knife point about to be beheaded and I had someone who was responsible for your situation and your beheading could be prevented by retrieving information from him, yes, I would hope I had the courage to do what it took to get it from him. It says a lot that if the situation was reversed, that you would let my head roll on the floor.
Your definition of torture and mine differ and we most likely will never agree on it. especially when the definition is ambiguous.
I know Eric. Torture is just the bestest! If you want a confession or a false report, torture is your go to action! It’s killed a lot of our soldiers. When people made stuff up, our gals and guys get sent to check things out. A lot of them come back in body bags! WOW, isn’t that great?
Carry on oh great USAinc.!
Jill: “Tortue is still going on.”
I’ve wondered, how are we obtaining intel for the drone strikes?
Me: “3 of the 5 categories [Donilon] names are controversial”
Let me step back on that. Actually, 4 of the 5 categories he named are controversial. In light of opposition to the broad sweep of electronic information-gathering by Fed, “gathered technically” (Donilon) is controversial, too.