There is a controversial measure introduced in Tennessee by State Sen. Kerry Roberts to make the Bible the official book of the state. Roberts insists that this is just a recognition of the historical importance of the book and not any elevation of the Bible over other books of faith. That is less convincing to many who view the measure as an official endorsement of, if not an entanglement with, Christianity.
Roberts insists that the Bible is merely being acknowledged as the book relied upon by George Washington in his inauguration: “He used the Bible for his swearing in. The attitude of these people was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep government out of religion.”
There is a legitimate debate over the purpose of the entanglement clause and whether it was solely meant to prevent the creation of an official religion. Some have argued that the framers were not opposed to general religious influence on government.
However, regardless of your view of meaning of the religious clauses, this is still a uniquely bad idea. For those who truly believe in fostering faith, the selection of the book of one faith (or two if you include the Old Testament as advancing a Judeo-Christian understanding) is neither inclusive nor supportive of all faiths. The Tennessean was particularly blistering in its editorial.
Try telling that to the editorial board of The Tennessean. Calling Roberts and his colleagues “theocrats,” the newspaper objected that “This is Tennessee, not Tehran. We are governed by the people, not the religious authorities.”
What is amazing to me is that this measure does not advance faith but a faith. It also creates a glaring conflict for agnostics and atheists in Tennessee. The question is why create such conflicts rather than honor the Bible in your own families and churches and private schools. The Framers were first and foremost concerned about individual liberty and freedom to think and live and pray according to our own values and beliefs.
Despite the rise of faith-based politics, those of faith should be the first to demand neutrality on religion to protect the free exercise of faith. These are many of the same people who openly warn about the encroachment of Sharia laws and other faiths into governmental programs or regulations. Putting aside the low likelihood of such developments, the greatest protection is found in the separation of church and state — not the erosion of separation principles through measures like the Bible bill in Tennessee. Where Roberts can demand that the Bible be honored as the official state book today, what is to stop another move to do so with the Torah (as the older book of Judeo-Christian traditions) or even the Koran under other claims of historical significance. These are merely majoritarian votes after all. The point is that, simply because you currently have the votes, does not remove any need for judgment or restraint.
The greatest demonstration of faith is to protect all faiths and not to try to place any one religious book higher than the rest. We are living at a time of religious extremism around the world. The United States represents a shining example of a place where all faiths flourish without violence or official favoritism. Despite their claims of being protectors of morality, I have never viewed Saudi Arabia or Iran as truly supporters of faith. They are the very opposite in flogging, arresting, or executing those who hold other religious views. We represent a system that truly values faith and protects free exercise. This is done not only in preventing government restrictions on faith but guaranteeing a separation of our government from our faiths. We manage the secular work of our government and leave matters of faith where they belong: with our families or our churches and temples and mosques.
By the way, there are various books based in Tennessee (“Tennessee Williams” would seem a logical choice but he was actually born in Mississippi and received that nickname due to the fact that his family came from the Volunteer State).
po – if you are going to debate about the Grand Mufti of Palestine, you need to do more reading on the subject.
Additionally, Tin, we are not taking about 12th to 13th century, which saw the end of the age of Arabo-Jewish-Christian enlightenment as expressed in Andalusia. That age started in the 7th century, so the european period you talk about happened at the end of the Arab enlightenment, and such European enlightenment you offer happened DIRECTLY through exposure to what was taking place in Andalusia.
The consensus is clear, that there was never before or after such time in the history of humanity where Arabs, Jews and Christians, Semite and Whites, along with East Africans collaborated to lead to such great intellectual and scientific development, and all of it was under Muslim rule and under Islamic structure.
And all of it ended not because Arabs became backward, but because various other groups waged war against it.
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La Conviviencia and The Golden Ages of Andalusia
by Doug Motel
A model for today’s religious unrest and conflict, revisiting medieval Spain provides us with valuable information and inspiration.
Tracing history back to medieval Spain, Andalusia is perhaps the only place in Europe where followers of three faiths: Muslims, Jews and Christians lived peacefully together to produce a common culture and a harmonious society. This unusual period aptly referred to as “The Golden age of Andalusia” is also termed “La Convivencia” or “Coexistence”. A model for today’s religious unrest and conflict, revisiting this era in Spain can provided us with valuable information and inspiration for our 21st Century.
The Origins of Andalusia and Al-Andalus
Al-Andalus refers to those regions of the Iberian Peninsula that were under the rule of Muslims, known as The Moors, from the period of 711 to 1492. At the launch of Muslim rule, Al-Andalus included Spain, Portugal and parts of Southern France; however, towards the end, the Kingdom of Granada alone was left in Al-Andalus. This era is rightly given the name of “The Golden Age of Andalusia” owing to the largely peaceful coexistence of Muslims, Jews and Christians. Andalusia served as the hub for political, economic and cultural progress. This was the time when aspiring artists created some magnificent work and there was much advancement in the fields of medicine, sciences, math and the like. Muslim Rule in the Region Muslims arrived in Iberia in 711 under the command of Tariq ibn Ziyad and quickly occupied the majority of the Iberian Peninsula. Al-Andalus came to be ruled by the caliph Abdl Rahman III but internal wars and conflicts resulted in the emergence of competing city states. With the decline of Muslim rule, Al-Andalus split into smaller regions like Granada, Seville and Cordoba. This led to a gradual weakening of the Muslim power at the center, thereby bringing the Muslim period to an end in the 13th century, with the exception of Granada. At this time, Christians regained control over the Iberian Peninsula and the La Conviviencia ended.
Life for the Jews
Jews, under the Muslim rule, led a prosperous and peaceful life. This medieval age was also the time when the Zohar was written. Zohar means “splendor, radiance” in Hebrew. It is a group of books written in Hebrew and Aramaic that entails the origin of the universe, the nature of souls, sin, redemption, good, evil and similar mystical matters. The Zohar is perhaps the most important work of Kabbalah. The Jews of the time succeeded in their intellectual endeavors and gave birth to the Jewish philosophy. Many intellectuals believe that the treatment of Jews during this era is commendable and better than any Christian-dominated region existent at the time. The Jews prospered considerably and some of the wealthiest Jewish communities of today found their origins in Al-Andalus. Further, this era produced some of the most significant Jewish scholars, poets and commentators of the medieval age.
Life for Christians
The Christians regained control over most of the Iberian Peninsula in the 13th century – a process was called the “Reconquista.” These Christians had been living under Muslim rule for a centuries and had acquired several Arab customs and traditions despite holding onto their values strongly. The Christians were as equally well-treated as the Jews. Their church existed with few restrictions; they were required to pay taxes called the jizya just like the Jews. The Muslims paid its equivalent called zakat which was distributed among the poor. Overall, many Christians lived prosperously.
The Three Cultures Together
The three cultures were the “People of the Book” and they lived together mostly harmoniously. This golden era demonstrates how coexistence led to some extremely notable achievements. The Jewish merchants brought treasures from far and wide and the honesty of the Muslims helped to regulate the market. This was truly a period of enlightenment; the progress made during this time serves as an example for us to learn from.
How we can learn from La Conviviencia Today
La Conviviencia describes the peaceful and culturally rich times; the beauty of the age can be seen in the works that resulted from this coexistence. La Conviviencia exhibits the glorious civilization that found its base in religious tolerance. It teaches us the lessons of universalism and fraternization whereby people from different backgrounds and cultures live together as one. La Conviviencia is a wonderful model of how different religions can co-exist today. Scientific progress and human development can attain unprecedented heights with coexistence. We should take inspiration from this and realize that the religious conflicts so prevalent today are of no avail and that together we are a much stronger force capable of soaring achievements.
http://www.esotericquest.org/articles/conviviencia.html
The American Taliban is alive and well.
Tin
I have just one thing to add. Yes the Japanese and German people picked up and rebuilt. The additional comment: They rebuilt with a great amount of aid from the victors.
Not in dispute with your comments, Unlike nearly every other conflagration, the Allies—victors—decided to end the cycle. As an aside, we didn’t see to it that England (the last bastion) received the same consideration/reconstruction.
Po and Stevegroen: There was no civilization in 12th and 13th century Europe? Are you serious? The great universities of Paris and Bologna, the arts, music and inventions of the High Middle Ages, the ship building factorIes of Venice and the iron smelting in England, the Magna Carta and the exploration….good grief, where on earth did you go to school? The great western civilizations were Greece, Rome and Persia. The Persians were not Arabs. When the Persians were defeated by the Arabs, their civilization ceased. If the Arabs were such intelligent, industrious people, what happened? They decided to stop inventing anything and live in squalor for some reason? They were pouting because they were pushed out of Europe? Your argument is pathetic. I recognize that there are “feel good” classes designed to build the self-esteem of black American children by lying to them and teaching them that sub-Suharan blacks invented algebra but white people “stole” it. And they were all kings and queens in Africa before the bad white people came along and made them lazy and stupid. But I’m still waiting for my African or Arab car or computer or pharmaceuticals. The fact is, intelligent, industrious people continue to be intelligent and industrious. Many, many Chinese inventions were exported to the West. And the Chinese civilization didn’t come to a screeching halt because someone else made good use of things invented there. The Chinese continued to develop because they are intelligent, industrious people. The Japanese and Germans were decimated in WWII, but they picked up and rebuilt their countries to lead the world in technology. But the Arabs were supposedly so civilized but just decided to take a rest for 1,000 years? Right.
If the Turks invented coffee, well I thank them. (Although I believe coffee was first roasted in Ethiopia.) Whatever…..I’m fine witching crediting Turkey with coffee and taffy if it makes them feel better. But beyond that, nothing much has ever come out of that county except bloodshed. And unfortunately, the Persian Empire was defeated by the barbaric Arabs and that put an end to the only civilization in the Middle East. It became one continuous cesspool after that, which is why so many of its peoples are desperate to leave and move to Europe or the U.S.
Yes, good point, Renegade, history, Tin, history…history…never learned about the Marshall plan without which much of Europe would be back into the stones ages?
How do you imagine Japan went from Hiroshima and Nagazaki to such industrialized/developed nation?
What happened in the Middle East meanwhile? In Africa?
Are we forgetting colonization? The dividing of the land as war spoils? The exporting of resources as God given right?
The erecting of dictators and the suppressing of democracy to insure the Western interests are safeguarded at the expense of the locals?
The congo is one of the richest countries one earth, why do you think it is still backward and war-torn?
Something to do with CIA and Lumumba perhaps? Something to do with our oligarchs still raping countries, wreaking havoc and corruption in order to prevent development and self-rule?
Your question to what happened to the Arabs is as warranted as to wonder what happened to the Chinese and the Indians, Colonization happened, and all of them are still struggling to get over it. While China, through communism, was able to counter western imperialism, a small ME or African country had no such luck.
But…why not ask yourself what happened to the Slavic people, the Iberian people, the Latin, the Visigoths, the Greek, the Roman? Or were those not intelligent and industrious too?
What about the Mayans, the Incas… does it have something to do with foreign forces decimating them? No?
And what about Tumbuctu and the various empires of Africa where knowledge and intellectualism and trade were thriving when Europe was still tribal and dying of bad hygiene?
I agree with you that Saudi Arabia, for example, is a backward country…how do you think it got that way? Perhaps with a monarchy that is kept in place by…yes, us, in order to support our interest?
Where do we think Iran would be right now in terms of development if we, the US hadn’t removed their democratically elected prime minister and established a shah who subsequently sold off the countries resources for a dollar?
Do you know what the IMF does?
Libya, a stable, prosperous Arabo-African country…with a leader who wanted to create a new financial model in Africa, one that bypassed the western financial institutions and the dollar., and the IMF.. what happened to it?
Do you really think that the West would be so advanced today had it not controlled the world, taking and oppressing?
Po writes, among other thought-provoking, excellent comments: “Do you really think that the West would be so advanced today had it not controlled the world, taking and oppressing?” Thank you for it.
That’s the issue in a nutshell, and the answer is a resounding “no.”
It’s time for bloated-can’t-get-enough consumerism to adjust to the entrance of the rest of the world into a quality of life that all can live with. Enough of empire building, regime change, and devaluing human life to sustain an unsustainable standard of living at everyone else’s expense.
Thank you, Steve.
Yes, fully agree with you that immoral capitalism using can’t get enough consumerism is at the core of all of our issues.
It is really time for that change, for valuing lives and people, for being satisfied with the needed, not the wanted, especially when the wanted is defined by those with strong interest in peeking and reaching into our pocketbook.
It is time we realize that we are prey to these devils until we come together as a people, stripped of our political and religious affiliations. WE are all human beings and we all desire and owe fairness. The moment we realize that is the moment we take back our neighborhood, cities, countries and humanity.
Po: I’m with you, brother.
Po
Stripped of religion and politics????
For as long as humans have been self-aware, there have been both. While it was fiction, the opening to “2001” allegorically catches the birth of both.
Both implicitly and explicitly “humanity” doesn’t exist in their absence.
Not sure if u just went binary or if there is someway u differentiate between extremes.
BTW, as mentioned in other threads..religion: the pervasive orientation towards life.
Karma, no god, maybe god(s), I am god, any sense of the ability to influence or be influenced by “other”. Astrology.
There may be unintended consequences for the sponsors of the proposed law. If Tennessee becomes an Iranian style theocracy:
1) It would abolish the death penalty
2) divorce would become a crime
3) adultery would be a crime
4) polygamy would be legal
5) the boy marrying your daughter would have to trade goats and other livestock to the father of the bride
6) women could no longer work outside the home
7) women could no longer vote
8) incest would be legal (Old Testament)
Are these the intended outcomes the bill’s sponsors were hoping for?
Paul Schulte says:
1, April 6, 2016 at 8:44 am
po – we do owe the Muslims a great debt for saving Western civilization, since they saved and translated the books that we discarded during the Middle Ages. And you are right, the first university was Muslim. However, you are wrong about the Crusades. There were two reasons for the Crusades: 1) the Muslims had closed access to the Holy Land and 2) there were a lot of unemployed knights with time on their hands.
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Paul, first of all, there was no WE. Western civilization at that time did not exist, what existed was Greek civilization, the legacy of which was inherited by muslim scholars and scientists who took the baton and ran with it, creating a thriving civilization that included all groups and valued knowledge, inquiry and tolerance as a religious precept, this when Europe was backwards and given to warring, as the Arabs themselves were before the advent of islam.
That legacy became what “western civilization” was built around, and by western civilization we mean that which led to what we have now in the west.
Every breakthrough in Western though and scientific development can be traced directly to the work of an arab.
The quote below, from Muhammad Iqbal’s book, Reconstruction of Islamic thought, does a great job summarizing the idea I stated above, the book itself is worth reading if you are interested in Islamic history and the dynamics between its various currents, wahabism, salafism and sufi, and its expression in the orthodox and mystical trends.
http://islamicphilosophy.voices.wooster.edu/files/2013/11/The_Reconstruction_of-Religious_-thought_in-Islam_by_-Allama-_Iqbal1.pdf
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“But inner experience is only one source of human knowledge. According to the Qur’«n, there are two other sources of knowledge – Nature and History; and it is in tapping these sources of knowledge that the spirit of Islam is seen at its best. The Qur’«n sees signs of the Ultimate Reality in the ‘sun’, the ‘moon’, ‘the lengthening out of shadows’, ‘the alternation of day and night’, ‘the variety of human colours and tongues’,10 ‘the alternation of the days of success and reverse among peoples’ – in fact in the whole of Nature as revealed to the sense-perception of man. And the Muslim’s duty is to reflect on these signs and not to pass by them ‘as if he is dead and blind’, for he ‘who does not see these signs in this life will remain blind to the realities of the life to come’.9 This appeal to the concrete combined with the slow realization that, according to the teachings of the Qur’«n, the universe is dynamic in its origin, finite and capable of increase, eventually brought Muslim thinkers into conflict with Greek thought which, in the beginning of their intellectual career, they had studied with so much enthusiasm. Not realizing that the spirit of the Qur’«n was essentially anti-classical, and putting full confidence in Greek thinkers, their first impulse was to understand the Qur’«n in the light of Greek philosophy. In view of the concrete spirit of the Qur’«n, and the speculative nature of Greek philosophy which enjoyed theory and was neglectful of fact, this attempt was foredoomed to failure. And it is what follows their failure that brings out the real spirit of the culture of Islam, and lays the foundation of modern culture in some of its most important aspects.
This intellectual revolt against Greek philosophy manifests itself in all departments of thought. I am afraid I am not competent enough to deal with it as it discloses itself in Mathematics, Astronomy, and Medicine. It is clearly visible in the metaphysical thought of the Ash‘arite, but appears as a most welldefined phenomenon in the Muslim criticism of Greek Logic. This was only natural; for dissatisfaction with purely speculative philosophy means the search for a surer method of knowledge. It was, I think, Naïï«m who first formulated the principle of ‘doubt’ as the beginning of all knowledge. Ghazz«lâ further amplified it in his ‘Revivification of the Sciences of Religion’,10 and prepared the way for ‘Descartes’ Method’. But Ghazz«lâ remained on the whole a follower of Aristotle in Logic. In his Qist«s he puts some of the Quranic arguments in the form of Aristotelian figures,11 but forgets the Quranic Sërah known as Shu’ar« ’ where the proposition that retribution follows the gainsaying of prophets is established by the method of simple enumeration of historical instances. It was Ishr«qâand Ibn Taimâyyah who undertook a systematic refutation of Greek Logic.12 Abë Bakr R«zâ was perhaps the first to criticize Aristotle’s first figure,13 and in our own times his objection, conceived in a thoroughly inductive spirit, has been reformulated by John Stuart Mill. Ibn Àazm, in his ‘Scope of Logic’,14 emphasizes sense-perception as a source of knowledge; and Ibn Taimâyyah in his ‘Refutation of Logic’, shows that induction is the only form of reliable argument. Thus arose the method of observation and experiment. It was not a merely theoretical affair. Al-Bârënâ’s discovery of what we call reaction-time and al-Kindâ’s discovery that sensation is proportionate to the stimulus, are instances of its application in psychology.15 It is a mistake to suppose that the experimental method is a European discovery. Dü hring tells us that Roger Bacon’s conceptions of science are more just and clear than those of his celebrated namesake. And where did Roger Bacon receive his scientific training? – In the
Muslim universities of Spain. Indeed Part V of his Opus Majus which is devoted to ‘Perspective’ is practically a copy of Ibn Haitham’s Optics .16 Nor is the book, as a whole, lacking in evidences of Ibn Hazm’s influence on its author.17 Europe has been rather slow to recognize the Islamic origin of her scientific method. But full recognition of the fact has at last come. Let me quote one or two passages from Briffault’s Making of Humanity ,
‘. . . it was under their successors at that Oxford school that Roger Bacon learned Arabic and Arabic science. Neither Roger Bacon nor his later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method. Roger Bacon was no more than one of the apostles of Muslim science and method to Christian Europe; and he never wearied of declaring that a knowledge of Arabic and Arabian science was for his contemporaries the only way to true knowledge. Discussions as to who was the originator of the experimental method . . . are part of the colossal misrepresentation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of the Arabs was by Bacon’s time widespread and eagerly cultivated throughout Europe’ (pp. 200-01). . . .
‘Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world, but its fruits were slow in ripening. Not until long after Moorish culture had sunk back into darkness did the giant to which it had given birth rise in his might. It was not science which brought Europe back to life. Other and manifold influences from the civilization of Islam communicated its first glow to European life’ (p. 202).
‘For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the paramount distinctive force of the modern world, and the supreme source of its victory – natural science and the scientific spirit’ (p. 190).
‘The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories; science owes a great deal more to Arab culture, it owes its existence. The ancient world was, as we saw, pre-scientific. The astronomy and mathematics of the Greek were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture. The Greeks systematized, generalized, and theorized, but the patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute methods of science, detailed and prolonged observation, experimental inquiry, were altogether alien to the Greek temperament. Only in Hellenistic Alexandria was any approach to scientific work conducted in the ancient classical world. What we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry, of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs’ (p. 191).
The first important point to note about the spirit of Muslim culture then is that, for purposes of knowledge, it fixes its gaze on the concrete, the finite. It is further clear that the birth of the method of observation and experiment in Islam was due not to a compromise with Greek thought but to a prolonged intellectual warfare with it. In fact, the influence of the Greeks who, as Briffault says, were interested chiefly in theory, not in fact, tended rather to obscure the Muslims’ vision of the Qur’«n, and for at least two centuries kept the practical Arab temperament from asserting itself and coming to its own. I want, therefore, definitely to eradicate the misunderstanding that Greek thought, in any way, determined the character of Muslim culture. Part of my argument you have seen; part you will see presently.
Knowledge must begin with the concrete. It is the intellectual capture of and power over the concrete that makes it possible for the intellect of man to pass beyond the concrete. As the Qur’«n says:
‘O company of djinn and men, if you can overpass the bounds of the heaven and the earth, then overpass them. But by power alone shall ye overpass them’ (55:33).
But the universe, as a collection of finite things, presents itself as a kind of island situated in a pure vacuity to which time, regarded as a series of mutually exclusive moments, is nothing and does nothing. Such a vision of the universe leads the reflecting mind nowhere. The thought of a limit to
perceptual space and time staggers the mind. The finite, as such, is an idol obstructing the movement of the mind; or, in order to overpass its bounds, the mind must overcome serial time and the pure vacuity of perceptual space. ‘And verily towards thy God is the limit’, says the Qur’«n.18 This verse embodies one of the deepest thoughts in the Qur’«n; for it definitely suggests that the ultimate limit is to be sought not in the direction of stars, but in an infinite cosmic life and spirituality. Now the intellectual journey towards this ultimate limit is long and arduous; and in this effort, too, the thought of Islam appears to have moved in a direction entirely different to the Greeks. The ideal of the Greeks, as Spengler tells us, was proportion, not infinity. The physical presentness of the finite with its welldefined limits alone absorbed the mind of the Greeks. In the history of Muslim culture, on the other hand, we find that both in the realms of pure intellect and religious psychology, by which term I mean higher Sufism, the ideal revealed is the possession and enjoyment of the Infinite. In a culture, with such an attitude, the problem of space and time becomes a question of life and death. In one of these lectures I have already given you some idea of the way in which the problem of time and space presented itself to Muslim thinkers, especially the Ash‘arite. One reason why the atomism of Democritus never became popular in the world of Islam is that it involves the assumption of an absolute space. The Ash‘arite were, therefore, driven to develop a different kind of atomism, and tried to overcome the difficulties of perceptual space in a manner similar to modern atomism. On the side of Mathematics it must be remembered that since the days of Ptolemy (A.D. 87-165) till the time of NaÄâr ñësâ (A.D. 12074)nobody gave serious thought to the difficulties of demonstrating the certitude of Euclid’s parallel postulate on the basis of perceptual space.19 It was ñësâ who first disturbed the calm which had prevailed in the world of Mathematics for a thousand years; and in his effort to improve the postulate realized the necessity of abandoning perceptual space. He thus furnished a basis, however slight, for the hyperspace movement of our time.20 It was, however, al-Bârënâ who, in his approach to the modern mathematical idea of function saw, from a purely scientific point of view, the insufficiency of a static view of the universe. This again is a clear departure from the Greek view. The function-idea introduces the element of time in our world-picture. It turns the fixed into the variable, and sees the universe not as being but as becoming. Spengler thinks that the mathematical idea of function is the symbol of the West of which ‘no other culture gives even a hint’.21 In view of al-Bârënâ, generalizing Newton’s formula of interpolation from trignometrical function to any function whatever.22 Spengler’s claim has no foundation in fact. The transformation of the Greek concept of number from pure magnitude to pure relation really began with Khw«rizmâs movement from Arithmetic to Algebra.23 al-Bârënâ took a definite step forward towards what Spengler describes as chronological number which signifies the mind’s passage from being to becoming. Indeed, more recent developments in European mathematics tend rather to deprive time of its living historical character, and to reduce it to a mere representation of space. That is why Whitehead’s view of Relativity is likely to appeal to Muslim students more than that of Einstein in whose theory time loses its character of passage and mysteriously translates itself into utter space.24a
Side by side with the progress of mathematical thought in Islam we find the idea of evolution gradually shaping itself. It was Ja`hiz who was the first to note the changes in bird-life caused by migrations. Later Ibn Maskawaih who was a contemporary of al-Bârënâ gave it the shape of a more definite theory, and adopted it in his theological work – al-Fauz al-Asghar . I reproduce here the substance of his evolutionary hypothesis, not because of its scientific value, but because of the light which it throws on the direction in which Muslim thought was moving.
According to Ibn Maskawaih plant-life at the lowest stage of evolution does not need any seed for its birth and growth. Nor does it perpetuate its species by means of the seed. This kind of plant-life differs from minerals only in some little power of movement which grows in higher forms, and reveals itself further in that the plant spreads out its branches, and perpetuates its species by means of the seed. The power of movement gradually grows farther until we reach trees which possess a trunk, leaves, and fruit. At a higher stage of evolution stand forms of plant-life which need better soil and climate for their growth. The last stage of development is reached in vine and date-palm which stand, as it were, on the threshold of animal life. In the date-palm a clear sex-distinction appears. Besides roots and fibres it develops something which functions like the animal brain, on the integrity of which depends the life of the date-palm. This is the highest stage in the development of plant-life, and a prelude to animal life. The first forward step towards animal life is freedom from earth-rootedness which is the germ of conscious movement. This is the initial state of animality in which the sense of touch is the first, and the sense of sight is the last to appear. With the development of the senses of animal acquires freedom
of movement, as in the case of worms, reptiles, ants, and bees. Animality reaches its perfection in the horse among quadrupeds and the falcon among birds, and finally arrives at the frontier of humanity in the ape which is just a degree below man in the scale of evolution. Further evolution brings physiological changes with a growing power of discrimination and spirituality until humanity passes from barbarism to civilization.24b“
po – Yes there is a WE. We advanced knowledge from the Catholic Church which actually was very active scientifically. Certain texts were saved by the Muslims and WE must give them credit for some advances in medicine. However, WE kicked their ass out of Spain in 1492, ending the Reconquesta and freeing up funds for Columbus to come to the New World. Thus, starting another spurt of invention and exchange.
BTW, it is what is left of the Roman Empire, not the Greek.
Steve
You are right, due to the rule on 2 links max, citing every argument I make requires writing much more than
I have time for, but if karen, Tin or Renegade want to challenge any specific point, I will gladly provide them with cites 🙂
AS for the claim some make that either there was no palestine before the zionists came or that the conflict is spurred by antisemitism, and just to give us a glimpse in the peaceful cohabiation of the various groups before the Zionists came, here is a great article that highlights it http://972mag.com/before-zionism-the-shared-life-of-jews-and-palestinians/118408/
po – let us not forget the Mufti of Palestine, the great pot stirrer, without whom we would have none of this today.
*no less than
stevegroen
1, April 6, 2016 at 11:08 am
Paul writes, “There were two reasons for the Crusades: 1) the Muslims had closed access to the Holy Land and 2) there were a lot of unemployed knights with time on their hands.”
Blackwater (or the contractor genre) is the analog to the knights templar, employed to make big money for themselves and everyone in the 1%. Life’s a circle.
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Exactly, and let us remember that the Blackwater head, Eric Prince, (who is currently facing serious prosecution) has offered the same biblical language in support of his business as was offered to justify the crusades.
So did not less than George Bush, Rumsfeld and many of our generals.
Renegade
No, Never been to Israel, though my sister has business there and goes often.
The issue with your argument is that is goes against the historical narrative.
The Palestinian authority, and even Hamas agreed on a two state solution based on the 1967 borders, therefore the idea of giving up the land is a red herring.
Interesting that the UN partitioned Palestine into Jewish and arab territories, which is what enabled Israel to exist, yet when the same UN condemns ISrael continuous settlement building onto Palestinian land, the Israeli supporters claim Un is antisemitic?!
As to Israel would not exist without occupying Palestine and devouring it, are you saying it is legitimate justification for doing exactly that?
As for Yasser Arafat getting everything he asked for? That, friend, is the lie that keeps making the rounds. I’ll let you substantiate it. However, it is well documented that most Israeli leaders spoke on record that they would never allow a Palestinian state alongside Israel. How do you answer that?
What does Jordan have to do with Israel? Is Jordan occupying Palestine? Just like the Hillary supporters always point the finger at Bernie to justify Hillary’s so called qualifications, Zionists always point at Jordan to justify Palestinian oppression.
Let me offer this article showing that shows that no less than Ben Gurion wanted to bring back the death penalty in Israel…why? in order to dissuade Israelis from killing innocent Arabs
Ben-Gurion in 1951: Only Death Penalty Will Deter Jews From Gratuitous Killing of Arabs
‘Until a Jewish soldier is hanged for murdering Arabs, these acts of murder won’t end,’ Israel’s first prime minister told his stunned cabinet 66 years ago, when Jewish murders of Arabs had become all too common.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.712125
As for wanting the extinction of Israel … what do you think of this:
1. “We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs and we are building here a Hebrew, a Jewish state; instead of the Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You even do not know the names of those villages, and I do not blame you because these villages no longer exist. There is not a single Jewish settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab Village.” Moshe Dyan, March 19, 1969, speech at the Technion in Haifa, quoted in Ha’aretz, April 4, 1969.
* ” (The Palestinians are) beasts walking on two legs.” Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
* “The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” ” Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988.
* “When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
* “How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.” Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.
* “There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969.
* “The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.” Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha’aretz, 19 March 1972.
* Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : “We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”
* “We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.” Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces – Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
* “We must do everything to ensure they (the Palestinian refugees) never do return” David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.
Paul writes, “There were two reasons for the Crusades: 1) the Muslims had closed access to the Holy Land and 2) there were a lot of unemployed knights with time on their hands.”
Blackwater (or the contractor genre) is the analog to the knights templar, employed to make big money for themselves and everyone in the 1%. Life’s a circle.
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment was originally created to prevent Christians from torturing and killing other Christians. The Anglican Church (Church of England) was preying on Baptists and other Christian denominations.
Predating the 18th Century when the First Amendment was ratified, for the previous centuries in Europe and elsewhere, churches essentially were the GOVERNMENT. Catholics were fighting Protestants and fighting any denomination within their own religion with a different interpretation.
For most of world history, religion has been exploited as a form of control and governance, having nothing to do with religious faith.
In the 18th Century, many religious groups emigrated to America because they were being persecuted by Europe’s theocratic governments which didn’t separate church and state. Oliver Cromwell and his fellow Baptists was essentially kicked out of Europe because their view of Christianity threatened the rulers.
George Washington had the religious freedom to use a Bible or nothing at all when he was swore in. He was in no way advocating an Iranian type theocracy.
Renegade. That UN resolution also established the right of the Arabs to have their own state.
One problem was the ridiculous partitioning of the former British Mandate.
I hold that that partitioning was a cowardly retreat of the UN from its responsibility to maintain a single country as envisioned by the mandate of the League of Nations.
Yes, my view does not change anything but there is too much falsification of what happened then.
The Golan Heights is the Crimea of the conflicts there. Have you noticed too? No one demands that the Heights must be returned to Libya.
Dieter – the original partition allowed a state for Arabs, but the then Mufti of Palestine turned it down. He wanted the whole state. You might remember the Mufti of Palestine as the one who was friends with the Nazis.
The amendment just states that there is to be no religion in common to the several states. But there might be, and were in at least Connecticut, established religions.
As for a state book, why not along with the state flower, bird, insect and lizard?
David Benson writes, “As for a state book, why not along with the state flower, bird, insect and lizard?”
Because the Founders, and rightfully so, weren’t necessarily concerned with disputes about flowers, birds, insects, and lizards. Remember why the Pilgrims came here? So they wouldn’t be beaten for their beliefs.
Bad idea, Crusaders. Let people alone.
Cold iron shackles
And ball and chain
Listen to the whistle
Of the evenin’ train
You know you
Bound to wind up dead
If you don’t head back
To Tennessee Jed
Rich man step on
My poor head
When you get back
You better butter my bread
You know you
Well, it’s like I said
You better head back
To Tennessee Jed
Tennessee, Tennessee
There ain’t no place I’d rather be
Baby, won’t you carry me
Back to Tennessee
I woke up
But feelin’ mean
Went down to play
The slot machine
The wheels turned around
Baby, the letters read
You better head back
To Tennessee Jed
I dropped four flights
And cracked my spine
Honey, come quick
With the iodine
Catch a few winks
Down, under the bed
And then we head back
To Tennessee Jed
Tennessee, Tennessee
There ain’t no place I’d rather be
Baby, won’t you carry me
Back to Tennessee
I run into
Charlie Fog
Blacked my eye
And he kicked my dog
My doggie turned to me
And he said
“Let’s head back
To Tennessee Jed”
Drink all day
Baby, rock all night
The law come to get you
If you don’t walk right
Catch a few winks
Down, under the bed
Then we head back
To Tennessee Jed
Tennessee, Tennessee
There ain’t no place I’d rather be
Baby, won’t you carry me
Back to Tennessee
Tennessee, Tennessee
There ain’t no place I’d rather be
Baby, won’t you carry me
Back to Tennessee
Thump thump bo bump
Bananna fanna fo fump.
Trump!
Wait a minute. I did not mean to say Trump.
I am a Bible Thumper.
Do you guys know what that is?
So. when some person says something that is against the Gospel, I get the Sears Roebuck version of the Bible out and THUMP IT!
Now, y’all might think that thumpin a Bible is just a bit of sham or whatnot. But, you try it. Thump one. You will feel real good.
Karen S
1, April 5, 2016 at 12:46 pm
steveg:
Historically, Muslims subordinated non-muslims by requiring a tax, granting few if any rights, inferior status under the law, inability to bear witness against a Muslim, and the right to kill them if they refuse to pay the tax or convert. They kept non-Muslims as slaves who were forcibly circumcised, and the women kept as sex slaves.
——————————-
That’s a lie, simply…and as usual.
The tax was in lieu of fighting for the state. Non Muslims were not required to fight and die for their society, but they were required to contribute to that society, hence the tax. In exchange they got the right to live in peace, to be free from abuse of any kind, to worship as they saw fit, to benefit from the protection of the authority…you tell me how that differs from a non-citizen living in the US, or better yet in a country like France where military service is compulsory?
Now if we are talking about during war time, that is another story. Show me any society anywhere that never indulged in war booty?
The difference?
The quran gave rights to slaves, demanded they be treated fairly, when a slave woman was taken as a concubine, her children were acknowledged as legitimate. Though she was not a wife, she was treated as such. What other society, especially a medieval one did that?
The quran is still the only constitution of any kind that urges us to give safe passage to prisoners of war, that urges us to free slaves as religious doctrine…to, in war, spare the elderly, women, children, animals and trees… The Geneva convention?
In the quran!
The magna carta?
In the quran!
human rights and equality?
In the quran!
By contrast, Muslims are represented in Israeli government, and are not threatened with death if they do not convert. The difference under the law is that they are not required to serve in the Israeli army, and thus are not able to receive military benefits and pensions. The problem is the Palestinians want the destruction of Israel, which obviously creates a very serious problem.
BS, karen, BS simply….BS as usual!
How silly it is to compare a society 1500 years ago to a modern society like Israel?
The difference in the law is that they CANNOT serve in the israeli army, just like they cannot have their marriage recognized, or they are NOT allowed to live in many Jewish neighborhoods, and they can be stripped of Israeli citizenship on a whim, or they would be lynched if caught with a Jewish girl…and the few Arabs in the knesset now can be stripped of their parliamentary position simply by vote from their fellow Knesset members, very much arbitrarily.
How silly is it to keep reiterating that the Palestinians want to destroy Israel when more Israelis are against a 2 state solution than are Palestinians?
When Israeli leaders keep reiterating they will be NO 2 state solution?
When the likud party keeps making worse statements than even Hamas makes?
When the settlers keep taking Palestinian land daily, keep murdering women and children daily, when it is the Palestinians who are occupied, their land taken, their resources stolen, 90% of their water polluted?
When will you get tired of repeating the same falsities, karen, falsities that most of the world, including a great many Jews here and in Israel are themselves denouncing?
What do you suggest in order to solve this Israeli-Palestinian issue?
Po,
Have you been to Israel? The question is not meant to infer a disqualification if not. Rather it is asked in regard to having seen the geography especially of the Golan and the West Bank.
Israel was founded by an international act. Israel exists, period.
However, 1967 War clearly demonstrated that the State could not survive with the then current and now weapons if everything given back.
Let us not forget that Jordan never let what became Palestinians move back into their own lands after that war.
As to the current two state solution….Then we have Yassar absolutely dropping his chance…he got everything he asked for.
Ultimately Gaza was given back with the whole of its infrastructure to boot. Well, how’s that working out? Yes, the so called Palestinians got their two state solution…Gaza and who ever the other guys are calling themselves now.
Why in the world would any sane person want to give anything to those who so readily betray themselves and still want the extinction of the State of Israel?
Short of a nuclear clean out of the whole territory, there will not be peace. That, of course, is not a scenario I want to witness. But then I may not have to after the first mushroom cloud appears on the other side of this world.
Karen and Tin:
Knock down Po’s argument, which I wish he’d cited (but I know there’s only so much time in a day) and which I think he knocked out of the park. There’s no use in me responding until you refute his position. I’m not convinced that what you’re arguing is based on fact but rather revision.
Innocent people were slaughtered in Gaza two summers ago by the Israeli government as opposed to individual hotheads popping off rockets over the partition, In the West Bank they’re being overrun by illegal settlements as Native Americans were here 150 years ago. Both areas are under an Israeli state of siege in third-world conditions wherein water and food must be accessed only through Israel and only when Israel decides to give it to them.
Hopefully, you saw the video I posted, but I’ll post it again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch5XlEZoi1c
If the shoe were on the other foot, I don’t know that we’d be seeing the same set of circumstances, if history is any indication. And I think that supporting any religious state is the primary problem. Israel’s is not a secular government.
…religious flag