Constitutional Law, Media, Politics

Final Tally Confirms Clinton Won Popular Vote By 2.8 Million But . . .

495px-Donald_Trump_by_Gage_Skidmore225px-Hillary_Clinton_official_Secretary_of_State_portrait_cropGiven our previous discussion of the rising popularity of the electoral college, the final vote tallies are interesting. They do confirm that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 2.8 million. However, it also shows that Clinton lost to Trump by 3 million outside of New York and California. The results will tend to reinforce fears that the abandonment of the Electoral College would hand the outcome of presidential elections to voters in New York and California. Trump however issued signature tweets about how Clinton focused on the wrong states.

The margin in California and New York would have overwhelmed the other states. Clinton won California by 4.2 million and took New York by more than 1.6 million. Her combined 5.8 million-vote advantage in those two states was more than twice the size of her overall edge nationwide.
I have long been a critic of the Electoral College, though I understand the concerns of those who fear that the loss of the institution would reduce presidential elections to the choice of states like California and New York.  These results will support those who oppose any change.

In the end, I still support the elimination of the electoral college but it would clearly bring about a major political shift in the country.

Do these results change your views on the controversy?

122 thoughts on “Final Tally Confirms Clinton Won Popular Vote By 2.8 Million But . . .”

  1. Isn’t democracy about having the minority prevail? That’s why we have the electoral college. It was created due to pressure from the rural southern states with their 3/5 of almost-persons.

    1. You’ve confused the reason we have the electoral college with the reason we had certain apportionment rules. The apportionment rules were a compromise between two contending principles of representation.

      Hillary didn’t win a majority.

      2. Slavery is not gone. It’s now in the for-profit prisons where the owners contract out the labor of the slaves/inmates to corporations.

    3. The problem faced by the Constitutional Convention was how to share power among states with differing amounts of population. The Southern states also had a subset of nonvoters who, in some circumstances, were the majority segment of the population. The Virginia Plan (as modified by the Connecticut Compromise) set up the bicameral legislature with one house based on state population and the other based on statehood status. The 3/5 Compromise was initially devised to deal with apportionment of taxes. Under the AOC, taxes were levied on land. When states began to depreciate the values of land to save on taxes, an apportionment of taxes was proposed to be based on state population thus necessitating a method of how to count slaves. Full status would mean the slave states would control the House. Not counting them meant, Nothern states would control and lose money in taxes. Thus a financial and political impasse.The compromise, proposed by James Wilson (Penn) and Roger Sherman (Conn) resolved the impasse with the 3/5 compromise.

    4. “Isn’t democracy about having the minority prevail?”

      Actually the opposite. Democracy is majority rule. There is a quote circulating that sums this up pretty well. I’m not certain of its original author though; perhaps Marvin Simpkins of the LA Times in 1994:

      “Democracy is not freedom. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch. Freedom comes from the recognition of certain rights which may not be taken, not even by a 99% vote.”

      I like that version.

    5. Oh, Betty K! I feel sooo sorry for you! You just go around falling for every stupid DNC talking point. Now, the Electoral College is all about slavery. What a hoot! Please tell me that you aren’t a history professor and actually teaching this stupid theory to poor innocent little students.

      Actually, the 3/5 rule was created due to pressure from the rural southern states with their 3/5 of almost-persons. Not the electoral college. Which would have been there regardless of slavery,. That is why it wasn’t abolished after the 13th Amendment was passed.

      You are like a shadow, which appears out of nowhere and shuts off the light. Please try to start thinking about some of this stuff before you regurgitate whatever silliness you have picked up on those foul liberal websites.

      Squeeky Fromm
      Girl Reporter

    6. Bettykath,
      “Isn’t democracy about having the minority prevail?”

      No, democracy is about majority rule. Everyone votes, but the most votes wins. Tyranny of the majority can oppress political minorities. The Founders tried to address this concern and wanted to prevent tyrannies.

  2. The link to Professor Turley’s previous (2012) article, under “long been a critic of the Electoral College”, on eliminating the Electoral College, was very interesting and helpful though it still did not address in any detail the issue with the densely populated coastal states having such a peculiar advantage over the flyover states.

    It does seem that you either have the dog wagging the tail or the tail wagging the dog. Either way, it’s unfair to some. If I had to pick without additional points of view being clarified, I too would go for sheer numbers and eliminate the Electoral College, especially if, as Professor Turley argued in his 2012 article, it would break the strangle hold of the duopoly (Rs and Ds) and open up the election process to more parties and candidates so that we might possibly have someone to choose from other than purely elite manufactured candidates*.

    *Trump was a manufactured choice first by the RNC and a bunch of stale candidates and then by the DNC and Hillary as the easiest foil to run against, as elite and sneaky as it gets, and it backfired. Ha!

    I shudder to think, however, that that would have meant Hillary was coronated after all, by divine right of our elite establishment as they had planned all along! I’ve never been a big fan of all out nuclear war with Russia though perhaps that’s just me.

    It would be interesting to me to have a better grasp on just how much of the fly over states are now simply populated by mega corporate agricultural and related firms that do the diametric opposite of creating jobs for anyone but ghosts. The very essence of monopoly capitalism, but some would call it “the free market” that creates thousands upon thousands of almost empty ghost towns full of rotting houses instead of small business and thriving communities (a la Samuel Adams). It would hardly seem that such states should get an additional advantage supposedly reserved for the people (though I always seem to forget that mega-corporations that ship jobs overseas or eliminates them by robots are now super people with far more rights than any humans).

    1. ‘Brooklin Bridge’ (and JT, et. al.) –

      POTUS 2016 results for my county (apologies if columns do not line-up properly):

      Trump Clinton Johnson Stein Write-In Total population
      3,381 1,782 53 14 22 Under 10k

      This county is in one of the rural, fly-over states you ask allude to, yet I am having difficulty finding the “ghost towns full of rotting houses” of which you claim. Perhaps these 5,000 votes were cast by spirits?

      These numbers suggest that continued use of the Electoral College is justified to provide proportional representation for voters who live in sparsely-populated locales, as well as those living in large cities, and on the east/west coasts.

    2. Brooklin Bridge,
      “Professor Turley argued in his 2012 article, it would break the strangle hold of the duopoly (Rs and Ds)”

      I do not think it would accomplish this. The duopoly would still be between the Federalists and the Republicans.

      The Founders feared monarchy and tried to create measures to prevent such things arising. We nonetheless have the rise of the Imperial Executive branch. The Federalists are gaining ground (this is not and R or D issue). Eliminating the Electoral College would break down more barriers for those preferring a powerful Federal government, I fear.

      1. The electoral college isn’t saving you from the imperial presidency. It’s just making containing the damage the California legislature does toward enfranchising illegal aliens.

      2. “Eliminating the Electoral College would break down more barriers for those preferring a powerful Federal government, I fear.”

        It would certainly break down more barriers but we’ve already created the massive administrative state with it…along with the Imperial Presidency. The EC is our last firewall from those like Issac that believe our institutions are archaic and need to be changed and those ignorant enough to believe him.

  3. It’s all how in you say it, “abandonment of the Electoral College would hand the outcome of presidential elections to voters in New York and California.”
    -or-
    The use of the Electoral College would hand the outcome of presidential elections to voters in small rural states.”

    Which is worse? One person; one vote; count ’em all.

    1. The problem, to which he doesn’t refer, is that the President is the only office elected in a constituency which transcends state boundaries. If you’re making use of national popular vote, you’d have to nationalize elections administration and have common screens and auditing agencies coast to coast. Otherwise, California is perfectly free to stuff the ballot box by allowing illegal aliens and juveniles to vote.

  4. “The results will tend to reinforce fears that the abandonment of the Electoral College would hand the outcome of presidential elections to voters in New York and California.”

    I didn’t realize these millions of voters are less American than the real Americans, because of the state in which they live.

    And the election is already dominated by a mere handful of swing states, at the expense of others.

    1. I didn’t realize these millions of voters are less American than the real Americans, because of the state in which they live.

      Again, public officials in California have acted to regularize the presence of illegal aliens.

      1. Granting rights or licenses to non-citizens is insane. I don’t agree with it, at all. But that doesn’t mean millions thereby voted.

  5. Look for the Dem Machine and the MSM push to eliminate the electoral college. Having been educated properly, I have always understood the importance of the electoral college and I have always supported it.

    1. “The Electoral College is a disaster for democracy.” — Trump, before election

      “The Electoral College is actually genius.” — Trump, after election

    1. …and Hillary no longer thinks marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

      I guess more than one politician has “evolved” in their positions. Shocking, I know.

      1. Pres elect Trump used the word “democracy” is his tweet, Oily. Do you think he has read the Federalist Papers? 🙂

  7. Keep it! It may not be perfect but as the Constitution frequently does, it protects the rights of the minorities or in this case, more populace states over the smaller populated states.

    No matter what system we have some will advocate a change to favor his/her/their political or economic positions.

  8. When you take the electoral college into the process, then for its purpose it worked. The concept of democracy in the US works on two platforms, the popular vote of all voters and the popular vote of the states. Both of these platforms require some basic ingredients: maximum participation by a well informed population of voters. Unfortunately in the US the participation is by approximately half of all eligible voters, those that participate are only informed as to the attacks of one candidate on another and not the issues concerned, by an ever increasing saturation of a media circus that goes on for over a year. If one truth has surfaced as obvious as can be to anyone that is able to focus past the lies, ranting, and raving it is that the US system of elections is flawed beyond an acceptable degree.

    The most accomplished sh*t slinger was elected. Hillary simply didn’t pull off the lying, sh*t slinging routine as well as DDT. It is conceivable that if Clinton had stopped sh*t slinging before the ‘deplorable’ remark, she could have won. Comey’s last minute investigation could have been the reason. And, Clinton’s negligence in campaigning regarding the so called ‘heartland’ could have been the reason. However, in the end, DDT did not win on issues but on sh*t slinging. He and his gang are the best. Give them what they want, to hear. Sell the illusion not the building. Repeated enough, lies become truths. This is the true genius of DDT. And he called it accurately. But you need enough dupes to fall for it and America seems to have an ample supply of dupes.

    1. issac – Trump sold me with his plan for the first 100 days. If he carries out half of that I am a happy camper. Hillary didn’t have a program except to sell the WH to whomever wanted it.

    2. When rates of reproduction are inversely proportional to levels of education of the mother, the overall level of literacy declines.

  9. To the contrary, the facts on CA and NY only solidify my support for the Electoral College. Further, with the 10 most populous states having 54.2% of the total US population the Electoral College is the only defense for the remaining 40 states. Now I realize that those on the East and West Coasts are certain that they know what is best and the unwashed in Fly-Over-Land should just accept their superior intelligence, we respectively decline.

    1. Texas and Florida are both larger states than New York and are hardly rural states. They both play a very large roles in choosing the president. Florida is usually a battleground while Texas, the state with the second largest amount of electoral votes, always goes red due to a large republican vote in the suburbs and exurbs.

  11. People who think that abandoning the electoral college would leave rural states out of the game don’t understand how math works. Without a “winner takes all” format like we use now, every vote matters. In fact it would very likely increase candidate attention on their base states. Because the ability to drum up an extra 100k votes in Nebraska would be just as beneficial to a candidacy as picking up 100k votes in California.

  12. It seems like the debate is really urban v. rural interests. Rural interests of course include oil, timber, and Ag — the historical default jobs for unskilled workers. Urban interests represent universities, health care, air and water quality, and immigrants. Do we want our government to address a wide array of interests or only urban interests?

    This is the basic debate in designing congressional districts. Cities can easily form urban districts where political campaigns are relatively easy, but then rural districts must be hundreds, or sometimes thousands of square miles in size to get the required population – making campaigning nearly impossible.

    Maybe we need political districts defined by something other than geography, although I’ve never been able to come up with a better idea.

    1. Suburban and exurban areas went for Trump in many states. Trump won the Milwaukee suburbs by 117,000 votes.

  14. As a gradate of The Electoral College I can say that there was one major which made sense. It was called “Bout Birthin Babies”. None of the graduates with that major ever sired or gave birth to a child. I graduated a long time ago. I won’t say the year. But we had a poem which we used to sing in our graduating class.
    “In days of old when knights were bold..
    And rubbers weren’t invented.
    We tied a sock..
    Around the cock…
    And babiys were prevented.”

    Sing that one at your Trump rally on January 20th.

  15. Nope, still am in favor of the electoral college. Because it is a certainty that those liberal snowflakes will again whine if a Republican won the popular vote and not the EC if, in their fantasy, the popular vote replaces the EC. Wanna bet on that?

  16. And when you consider that at least 4 million of California’s votes came from the deceased and illegal immigrants, thanks to the lax Pro-Leftist agenda in that state, Trump really won the popular vote nationally. This is PRECISELY the reason that the Electoral College exists. The creators of it anticipated that one state or another would allow fraud and deceit to be the way some states would go, and they recognized that those criminal-promoting states should not have greater power because of their fraud and deceit.

    And don’t tell me “how do you know that California allows fraud?” California allows illegal immigrants to obtain driver’s licenses and by California law, they bureaucrats are instructed not to “discriminate” against illegal immigrants or they can be fired. As for deceased voters, the California system allows people to register with false documents which can easily be obtained. Again, the bureaucrats are told not to verify whether social security numbers are genuine or not, or if they actually belong to someone else. California is loaded with governmental fraud, corruption, and crime. That is why they have among the highest taxes and the lowest level of services of any state, and are nearly bankrupt.

    As the years go by, I have more and more respect for the framers of the Constitution. They really knew what they were doing.

    1. Ralph,

      Well said. I have lived in both states (NY and CA) and I would not want either one deciding who the next president should be.

        1. Dave,

          Yes, Delaware and all of the other states. Two states with large urban populations should not decide for the other 48 who is president. And like the article stated, the other 48 did not want the Queen.

          1. About 65% of the population lives in dense settlements which exceed 50,000 in population. About 30% live in a first tier city with in excess of 2 million people in its core and tract-suburbs. Not only are California and New York modally ‘urban’, so are Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, Florida, Texas, Michigan, Illinois, Colorado, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Washington State, and Hawaii. (Pennsylvania, Indiana, Missouri, and Minnesota are about a 50-50 split).

    2. “…at least 4 million of California’s votes came from the deceased and illegal immigrants…”

      Evidence? Or do you just have words.

    3. Any and all efforts to purge the voter rolls of fraudulent entries such as the deceased or illegal aliens are stymied with calls of racism. Until and unless we are allowed to purge the rolls, we will never know how many fraudulent votes were in the CA election.

      Based on past elections, when investigative journalists got many illegal aliens to admit they had voted, the number is probably high. But it’s all conjecture until we are allowed to prove it.

      Every time I vote in CA, all I do is tell them my name. I am not required to show any proof of identity at all. I suppose the argument that there is no appreciable voter fraud would have to be based on every single person in the Democratic Party being immune to the temptation of how easy voter fraud is in CA.

    1. Mr. Ed: Thanks for this.

      You’ll get a big “wow” out of this fact, and then the channel will be changed to see what Kim Kardashian’s wearing. Stein was the only one running for president who actually wanted change and was willing to go the extra mile. None of this will resonate long.

  18. What controversy? The electoral college did it’s job, preventing Radical majorities from having way too much power. Not sure how you can be against that. Aren’t we the United Countries of America? If so, why give so much power to two states? (Countries).

    If one were to do a popular vote, then a minimum requirement should be established, as in congressional voting. At least 60%.

    I am surprised you are critical of the electoral college. Just out of curiosity, what would replace it with?

    1. United COUNTRIES?” They have not been Countries since the day they gave up their sovereignty to the Constitution.

      Odd that you do not speak out against radical MINorities having way to much power.

      I suspect that requiring at least 60% of the vote to get the win, may be too large a margin. On the other hand, a system of holding runoffs whenever the first round does not produce a 51% clear majority result would be workable and valid.

  19. Eminent professor of law says election results tend to support fears that election outcomes would be determined by votes in New York and California, were it not for the electoral college. “would hand the outcome”. I like that. Here are the figures: Total popular vote: 137 million. Total popular vote in New York and California combined: 18.7 million.

  20. To this day, John Kerry believes he was cheated out of an electoral college victory in 2004 by election fraud in Ohio.

    I am not keen enough to dig out their talking points for explaining why George W Bush’s popular margin of 3 million did not matter

    1. To this day, John Kerry believes he was cheated out of an electoral college victory in 2004 by election fraud in Ohio.

      No, he does not. He was quite explicit at the time in conversations with other Democratic members of Congress that he’d looked into the charges and found them wanting. There were about 20 Democratic members of Congress who bought into this meme (Maurice Hinchey was one), but Kerry was not one. The primary promoter was Mark Crispin Miller, an academic media critic who likely has no experience with street-level politics.

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