Trump: Torture Works

220px-AbuGhraibAbuse-standing-on-boxPresident Donald Trump gave a startling interview this week in which he expressly stated his belief that “torture . . .  works” and stated that he would order torture if his team asks for it to be used on detainees.  It is a position opposed not only by the military and both Republican and Democratic members of Congress but, more importantly, United States and international law.  In fairness to Trump, he added that his decision would be controlled by the law but also that he believed in the efficacy of torture: “I want to do everything within the bounds of what you’re allowed to do legally but do I feel it works? Absolutely I feel it works.”  Under international law, it does not matter if torture is successful or useful. It remains a war crime. Indeed, it was the United States that played a key role in defining torture as a violation of international law.  In other words, there is no legal basis for the use of torture or the commission of any war crime under domestic or international authority.

President Trump insisted that we have to “fight fire with fire.”  Despite the widespread view that torture is not effective in producing reliable information (and the conclusions of intelligence reports that it did not produce significant intelligence), Trump said that he had “spoken with people at the highest level of intelligence and I asked them the question ‘Does it work? Does torture work?’ and the answer was ‘Yes, absolutely’.”

Fortunately, Defense Secretary James Mattis  has clearly ruled out a return to a torture programs and various members of Congress, including Republicans, have warned Trump that they will not allow a return to the program launched by George W. Bush.

To Trump’s credit, he at least called waterboarding what it is: torture.  Bush officials danced around the term torture despite long-standing rulings that it is a clear form of torture.  Trump did not shy away from the turn but rather openly embraced it.

What is worrisome is that he did not even acknowledge that he would be ordering a war crime and subject the country and himself to potential international charges.  Instead he defined our actions by the depravity of our enemies:

“When they’re shooting, when they’re chopping off the heads of our people and other people, when they’re chopping off the heads of people because they happen to be a Christian in the Middle East, when Isis is doing things that nobody has ever heard of since Medieval times, would I feel strongly about waterboarding?”

In the end however Trump affirmed that (while he believes torture works) he would yield to the law.  That law is clear.  Congress prohibited the use of torture, including waterboarding, and such tactics are not allowed under the military code.

If we ever resumed our “enhanced interrogation” program, Trump’s words could be used by an international tribunal. He is shown openly endorsing the use of “torture” — dispensing with the rhetorical evasions of the past Administration.  Torture is expressly defined as a war crime under governing treaties and international law.  By saying that he believes in effectiveness of torture and the willingness to order torture, Trump has created a record that could be used by other countries to establish knowledge and intent.

Finally, by expressly stating that torture is effective and permitted, Trump’s words could be used to legitimate the torture of American military personnel or civilians.

What do you think?

491 thoughts on “Trump: Torture Works”

  1. :”No. The LWVs are a coalition of contented Democrats. Federal elections need to be controlled by the federal government, not the parties or an NGO”

    First, the Federal Government should NOT control selecting a political parties candidates!!!! Political parties should be able to make their own rules as to how they select a candidate which represents their views. There are a myriad of reasons not to do this. The only one I can see for it is the Federal Government being able to control the outcome of an election by controlling the rules.

    Second, in reality there are no “federal” elections. The states have the power to make the rules for elections in their state. They and only they should decide how they choose their representatives to the Electoral College.

    Third, I find it humorous anyone would think Washington could run a file of valid voters in an accurate manner. Please tell me your fingers were not crossed when you wrote this. The same government which cannot handle the security of Social Security records, has all manners of high level data bases hacked, etc is going to keep better records than a amalgamation of local election boards of a state? Reality check, please!

      1. Michael: Likewise. But, then, we both seem to have developed a healthy love of history and of this country. Nothing pleases all parties and nothing is perfect. However, before one wants to change the guts of this country, they need to understand how it works and how it came to be. We have been at this business of a democratically oriented government longer than any other. Shoot, France has had (I believe) six republics. The people calling for change are akin to would be mechanics who want to soup up their car to their liking but lack the knowledge of what makes their car go.

        1. Oh! you mean the boom boxers who think they are hot rodders. Say do you think those roller skate cars are really just loud go karts? Or use rubber bands and playing cards in the spokes?

          1. LOL……. I doubt the generation which thinks the Electoral College is obsolete could not appreciate how satisfying the sound of cards in spokes sounds …………………. and they didn’t cost anything (because they were from the cards no longer deemed good enough for the guests who came to the house for bridge). That was not the only thing we recycled. Creativity and imagination won the day. That no longer happens.

            1. Therein lies a distinct difference. Subjectivists can have all sorts of ideas but most cannot turn them into reality. Objectivists also have ideas and a great deal of creativity but they end up with something concrete and real. at the same time it would be practical, useful, and soul stirring. The example is the 5,000 words starting with the poetry of the Declaration of independence as a Mission Statement followed by the practical officiousness of the Constitution as a set of laws and codes of conduct and both allowed self government, independent thinking, freedom – useful in both an idealistic and a practical form.

              Luckily they got in before the French took their turn and the age of rennaisance turned into the age of enlightment then being unfinishedinto the Age of Kant.AKA Dark Ages II.

              The entire philosophical development took around 2500 years to complete three revolutions and now one counter revolution. Add to that the practical imagination that produced the third and fourth most important documents. Homestead Act and the North West Territories Act.

              Not all but most colonies had land rights which they kept extending west with no limit. Voluntarily they gave up those rights as a way to fund the new nation with it’s new Constitution.Not bhy selling land but by giving it away to all who would go forth and help produce an economy. Now here I’ll stop and only say learn and judgte in the context of the times and take no responsibility for anything prior to the day you accepted the social contract and became a tax payer and a voter.

              That held until the last incasion starting in 1898 and lasting until Nov 8th 2016. The century of the socialist wars but shining above all the Constitution lasted the longest..

              So having waxed poeti we look forward to 240 years and the ability to raz tabula and begin again. Assuming a counter counter revolution does not take place but remember all revolutions require outside support. Our counter revolution only required reading 5,000 words and applying them to real life.

              The opposition has no such support. unless WE give it to them. So? the work begins and the battle continues and my practical and poetic stance is ….Deguello.

    1. Great article I read the whole thing signed up to get it on a regular basis and posted a reply thanking everyone for helping us get more votes.

      Little light weight as the only two scientists quoted did not explain their full background in the area but they did have proper credentials so w’ell waive that.


      Your first attempt, welcome to reality and thanks for getting them to assist those of us in the moderate center.. We always welcome converts epecially those who escape regressive secular collective.

      Keep up the good work you are on the right track.

    1. Nope no evidence of a guilty or an innocent outcome only the trial is allowed to move forward. So you really didn’t have an outcome but a continuance and wow …..screwed up again.

    2. David, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but it might be of interest regarding James Mitchell and what someone looks like who’d do such a thing:

    1. Couldn’t have been opposed by the Demcorats to much it was their Preisdent that put the current version in place so I have really doubt that unless it’s just the usual Democrat BS you know vote for war then abandon the troops crap.

      Do you brush your teethy before you print such easily found out falsehoods?

      1. Incomprehensible babble.

        Except that opinion pieces in The New York Times are almost always of import. You provide no evidence to the contrary; indeed, did you even read it?

        1. Yes sure did. Is the trial over yet and if it’s correct why was it not filed under criminal law.? Still it’s a charge so it bears watching to see what the outcome. Given the source I’m surprised you bothered. What Did Guardian, Reason and Politico have to say? The other guy got credit for trying. You aren’t worth tht much.

          Being charged or sued for something, except in obamaland, is not evidence of guilt. You anti constitutionalists really don’t deserve to live here. i’d rather take those Syrians.

          1. More incomprehensible babble, appears to be beside the point. Didn’t learn much, did you?

    1. Back to reality the other fake news MAYBE is MSNBC is getting pulled. Is it real is it fake who knows but one can hope

      1. As it turned out the blurbs on MSNBC folding and going the way of Scare America ….hair america…???? one of them….is not accurate when the rest of the story came out is was a recap of the major shakeup with much of their headliners being junked.

        The staff may be in la la land on the outcome of the election but the viewers and the investors have a solid realistic grasp of the situation. Baldwin and his show are listed as heave ho just go. and Reid along with Reid and others.

        How much of this will turn into fact not fiction is yet in the air as all the informatin came from CBS ABC and CNN . One had them dipiping from the acceptable lower double digit share of market to ‘single digits!’

        It’s either Fake or it’s Ache as the lame stream media eats it’s young and stays in denial.

        But to stick in another bit of information heres a not fake background on the chances of the Electoral College becoming a thing of the past and the answer is lower than whale snot.

        Not from the lamestreamers the source is

        “Between the late 1940s and 1979, the Congressional Research Service says Congress held 17 hearings about eliminating the Electoral College. On three occasions, the House or the Senate approved language for a constitutional amendment – but not in the same Congress. Although an estimated 700 attempts have been made to propose eliminating or changing the Electoral College by a constitutional amendment, not one has been approved by Congress and sent to the states for ratification.

        These proposals included replacing the Electoral College with a direct election, or changing how electoral votes are allocated based on congressional districts or in proportion to a state’s popular vote.

        But as of 2016, the Electoral College remains in place. Its supporters point to the fact that the College has matched the popular vote in 53 of 57 elections held before 2016. It also remains consistent with the principle, embodied in Congress, that all states have some equal power despite their population size. A state like New Hampshire, with just four electoral votes, can make the difference in a close election.

        Electoral College supporters believe that the lack of a constitutional amendment to change or eliminate the College reflects the will of the people. Back in 2000, the Cato Institute’s John Samples argued that in the wake of the Bush-Gore election, the system was still relevant.

        “If the Founders had wished to create a pure democracy, they would have done so. Those who now wish to do away with the Electoral College are welcome to amend the Constitution, but if they succeed, they will be taking America further away from its roots as a constitutional republic,” he said.”

        There was no comment from the far left apparently Carville went on vacation so the collective is on their own. That ought to be real funny

        1. What a joy it to hear from someone who understands the purpose of the Electoral College. The naysayers do not appear to have a clue as to why it exists. Do they understand that we are the UNITED STATES of AMERICA? Have they actually read (and understood) the Constitution of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA? Do they understand that, in 1776, 13 colonies came together and united as a country for economic and security services but maintaining sovereignty in other areas. It is unique among the countries of the world and little understood. (One can see Europe does not have a clue They tried to bring Europe together. The EC power is really in a bureaucracy with no say of the peoples of the various countries. Borders were erased and countries asked to embrace diversity by bringing in thousands of immigrants from a totally different cultural base. They did not recognize that assimilation requires for the party coming into the relationship must want to join and become a part of the selected country and not just their culture/country in absentia. The immigrants do not assimilate but remain separate. Europe is seeing this will not work. Sadly, we have forgotten the importance of immigrants embracing the ideals and purposes of the United States of America. There is a call for embracing diversity. We need to remember, a successful marriage exists only when the partners root goals look forward in the same direction.

          The people calling for the abandonment of the Electoral College best understand the unintended consequences of that action. It enables dictatorship by the majority. Now, thanks to primarily to New York and California, the left has the edge in obtaining the vote of the nation’s voters. Will they feel the same when the roles are reversed? There is wisdom in what the Founding Fathers did. They recognized the differences between the different parts of the nation. Forget out size now. There were vast differences between the needs and cultures of the Colonies. A majority vote would never have been accepted but they could agree to cede some economic decisions and for security while allowing them to maintain their sovereignty and, therefore, their identity.

          Understand before you make an uneducated decision. Those are the type which bite you in the posterior.

  2. Tomorrow’s headlines today.

    American Muslim frets, concerned, about backlash against they all knew about stockpile at local Mosque.”

    “How dare the Kuffar blame us for attacking them” says CAIR spokesman.

    Local Muslim communities concerned, continuing secrecy could arouse more Angrer” they say.

  3. Before we continue, can we at least agree the even if torture works, it is beneath us.

    1. I agree with you that torture should be beneath us as civilized human beings, but I’d guess the overwhelming majority that subscribe to this blog site don’t agree. And, ironically, I’d guess that most of those are Christians.

      1. Steve Groen – my feelings about torture depend on the immediacy of the information needed and its value.

        1. Paul, who gets to make that decision of the immediacy? Trump? Obama? Dubya?

          And isn’t that an act of punitive suspicion? More WMD fairy tales would be the basis.

            1. Perfect description of a self governing individual who understands rights and responsibilities.

          1. Steve and Paul,
            – If there was a certainty that a terrorist cell had a nuke, and was determined to set it off, I think those absolutely opposed to torture under ANY circumstances should stick to their principles, and stick around.
            The others can hit the road.

            1. my guess is those with all those high and mighty principles would have one or more of the following reactions.

              1. But that couldn’t happen here!

              2. Denial

              3. Panic

              4. But ….how could the government let it happen?

              5. more Denial

              6. But if only….someone has to do something!!!!!

              7. And other such liberal foolishness

              8 Then randomnly grab a bunch of stuff most of it worthless in the situation and jump in their car – if it hadn’t been stolen and forgetting to check the fuel tank head out of town going …..where?

              9. If it was night they would tune in Coast to Coast for instructions.

              10. Finally checking the gas gauge and figuring it was no go to the next intersection or town try to drive from one side fo the freeway to the other. through a stream of solid uncooperative traffic. Typical for LA, SF and Seattle Freeways.

              ten percent would get in a wreck and die

              ten percent would get in a wreck and not die

              40% would call on their GPS loaded gizmo smart phone to 911 411 and any other number they could think

              20% would start walking hoping for a ride and all would be ignore unless they had gas or something else to trade. that’s where the hollyweeds would have an advantage.

              10% would start waving around the most useless item they had….money.

              and five percent having topped off and thought to stop at the first possible place still pumping would be quietly making progress to a destination that had pre planned with 20 extra gallons and food for a week. blankets, first aid kits etc.maps, extra clothes and make one firm decision and have one other item.

              your job is guess that decision

              and what is the item?

              What is the one item they would have that is perhaps the most useless.

              meanwhile some with hoses would bring up the end of the parade checking the abandoned vehicles with their arkansas credit cards. and if possible switching to a good solid 4WD not a KIA. second choice something like VW that gets great milage and screw the EPA.

              One group would say i’m riding this one out. no percentage figures unless a body count could be made later.

              and other such activities.

              MEANWHILE out in the country. ” Hey Al still got some of those sticks of dynamite you used to take out those old trees?”

              “What you got in mind?”

              “That bridge coming in on Hwy 229 over the steep ravine? Be hard for those locusts to go further if it sort of went pooof!”


              “Hey Jim Bob you think any of them are still tuned to their local radio station?”


              “Out of range and they wouldn’t have heard it was a false alarm.”


              ” to be safe let’s drop a few of those cell towers.”


              “Are they really that stupid?”

              “They live in the city don’t they?


              1. Now that’s my idea oc objectivism versus subjectivism. Anyone pass the test yet?”

        1. Thank you for your personal opinion ….or was it your pastors? Did it disturb you when Obama helped make that stuff law? Did it distrub you when he disn’t exclude citizens? Did it disturb when he broadened that law? Did it distrub you when he left office without rescinding it?

          Or was it just in the last week you woke up to reality?

      2. Speaking of Christians, I can’t think of a single Christian denomination that would prevent an FBI agent from listening to one of its sermons. Yet, that is exactly the policy of CAIR; don’t even allow the FBI in, don’t cooperate.

        I’ve somehow been branded an “Islamophobe” because I agree with the UAE’s decision to declare CAIR a terrorist organization. This is how crazy the world has become. I’m the “Islamophobe” (a word created by fascists to be used by morons to intimidate cowards) for agreeing the Muslim Arabs of the UAE made the right call.

        The point being if we ignored the advice of Islamic terrorist front groups like CAIR and and their mother organization the Muslim Brotherhood which have adopted the soldier’s prayer of Turkish nationalist poet Ziya Gokalp, written in 1912…:

        “The minarets are our bayonets, the domes our helmets, the mosques our barracks and the faithful our army”

        …we wouldn’t be having this discussion about torture. We wouldn’t have to worry about extracting information under extremis from a terrorist in five minutes when we could have learned about it five months ago by monitoring the conversation in the “barracks” five months ago.

  4. Speaking of Trumps overseas investments did you notice that Mickey D invested heavily in Russia and worse did it through a Canadian pipeline? No one knows how MacBorshtBurgers are selling or Parts R US deep fried Cabbage but the Canadians aren’t complaining.

    Factual story to get into Moscow McDonalds went through McDonalds of Canada where they are a little bit more enlightened about payoffs as a business expense than the US….which does it but doesn’t want to admit to doing it though doesn’t mind taking political rake offs along the way.

  5. Got them both enroute for total of $8.32 since there was a tie in. Sheen was listed in the credits as ‘an actor, I’ll have to do a review Jackson is usually on my A List for acting and Sheen for when I need a pimp.

  6. Here’s what I think, Jonathan. I wouldn’t step on snails when I was little, still don’t; I wouldn’t step on ants still won’t. It’s not about whether or not someone will spill if tortured, but that making another human being suffer is vile and it’s wrong. I couldn’t torture anyone or countenance someone else to do it on my behalf.
    Trump’s comments prompted your post, but even before he had anything to say on it, a bunch of the ‘depraved’ countries have been at it forever: China, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Malaysia, Morocco, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Syria, Turkey, Uganda, and Uzbekistan. Your post and your point isn’t complete unless you include the places and the type of people who use torture as a matter of course, whether or not anything is to be gained from it.

    1. What a load of BS that article is: “There is also a need to improve our understanding of how young people become radicalised and what we can do to prevent it. Theories about “root causes” have concentrated on factors such as an individual’s social and economic circumstances, and these are not nuanced enough. Recent research has shown social networking is important for the growth in size and scope of terrorist groups.”

      Terrorism exists because it is heavily funded. The sources of the funds are the Islamic nations such as Saudi Arabia and Iran. Other sources of funding include the US Government, as Obama tried to sneek in some $300 million in his final hours as president to finance Islamoterrorism. So, yes, American taxpayers are paying to finance the murders of other Americans.

      So to stop Islamoterrorism, you don’t engage in Islamopandering, being nice to Islamoterrorists, respecting the wishes of the Islamoterrorists, bing “sensitive” to their needs, and other such BS. You stop Islamoterrorism in two ways, and ONLY in two ways. You cut the head off of the beast and you cause as much death, pain, fear, and misery to the Islamoterrorists as you possibly can. To cut off the head of the beast, you must neutralize Saudi Arabia and Iran. Of course, the US just gave Iran more than $1 billion plus dollars to help them fund more Islamoterrorism and the US is always Islamopandering to the Saudis. But if the US ever decides to get serious about stopping Islamoterrorism, then it will be done. And it won’t take any “studies” or “cultural sensitivity” training to get the job done right.

      1. You mean “national suicide:” +1

        They’re trying this silliness all over Europe because the Europeans prefer not to face unpleasant facts. It doesn’t work.

        1. Steve57, I’m Steve56.

          What unpleasant facts are those?

          It seems to me that “[T]here is . . . a need to improve our understanding of how young people become radicalised and what we can do to prevent it.” Don’t you?

          1. When we look at groups like the Lakawwa Six we play right into the recruiters hands. And when I look at the Euro example, they would rather pretend it doesn’t exist.

            1. Did you mean the Buffalo Six? Not sure what the point is but I thought I would provide the proper back ground information to assist the conversation whatever it’s about. Nice to have things in context and explained just a little bit.

              Buffalo Six
              From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
              Buffalo, NY shown in red. Lackawanna is a small city, adjacent to Buffalo to the south. On the west are Lake Erie, at the mouth of the Niagara River, and the Province of Ontario, Canada.

              The Buffalo Six (known primarily as Lackawanna Six, but also the Lackawanna Cell, or Buffalo Cell) is a group of six Yemeni-American friends who were convicted of providing material support to Al-Qaeda in December 2003, based on their having attended an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan together in the Spring of 2001.[1]

              Sahim Alwan
              Mukhtar al-Bakri
              Faysal Galab
              Yahya Goba
              Shafal Mosed
              Yaseinn Taher

              Friends from childhood in Yemen, all six are naturalized American citizens.[2]

              or the kiteboarding club?

              So what are we looking at and how did it play into, I assume but it wasn’t stated, the Al Queda Recruiters hands? Are you saying they were like the Oklahoma City Bomber and were likewise rejected for SEALS or SF or USMC and sought their manhood elsewhere? Please explain.

              or was there a nother point?

              Anyway ….you now have a more factual start point ….

              1. Thanks for correcting my spelling. Yes, I was talking about the Lackawanna Six. They were very westernized, essentially secularized Muslims. Like a lot of nominal Christians, they really just went through the motions when it came to their religion. They had girlfriends, they’d drink with their other non-Muslim friends, etc. An AQ recruiter befriended them. He would play basketball with them, buy pizzas for them, just became their all around best friend. After he earned their trust, he told them, “You know you’re going to hell, right?” He used the Islamic source texts to show that the way they were living was entirely un-Islamic. They were having premarital sex, they were drinking alcohol, they would eat pork sausage when their friends bought the pizza for their parties. Just in all kinds of ways they were sinning.

                Again, according to the hadith, when a Muslim is born two angels sit on his shoulders. One records the good deeds, one records the bad deeds. When the Muslim dies, Allah places the good and bad deeds on a scale, and if the good deeds outweigh the bad deeds he goes to paradise. But if the bad deeds are weightier the Muslim goes to hell. And the recruiter demonstrated to them they were piling up a mountain of bad deeds. Even if they repented and tried to live as devout Muslims they’d never have assurance of paradise.

                According to the Islamic sources there is only one sure way for a Muslim to go to paradise. And that is to die fighting in Jihad.

                Surah 9:111 At-Tawbah (The Repentance)

                “Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.”

                Basically the recruiter guilt-tripped the six into becoming mujahideen. Jihad was the only good deed, he convinced them, that would erase their bad deeds.

                This is a common pattern in what we call the “radicalization” of Western, usually second generation, Muslims. It’s really the “fundamentalization” of Western Muslims. Salafi recruiters, and nearly all of the terrorists are Salafis (the term basically means “the pious ancestors,” i.e. the early generations of Muslims who knew Muhammad or his sahaba, his companions) have a very compelling interpretation of Islam. I’m not saying it’s the only interpretation of Islam, but by and large other interpretations of Islam are not equipped or even inclined to combat it. Compounding the problem, 80% of the mosques in the US are beholden to the Wahabi sect as the Saudis provide a great deal of if not most of their funding. And honest Wahabi clerics admit the Salafis believe what they believe. The Salafis can be understood as the Frankenstein monsters of the Wahabis.

                This is one of the crucial points in the issue. It’s how we play into their hands. We allow the the Saudis to do this. We allow the Saudis to fund the vast majority of mosques, as they do in Europe, that makes Muslims vulnerable to this form of indoctrination. When they are confronted with it, as were the Lackawwana Six, the Chattanooga Shooter, I could go on, it’s like a disease that they have no natural resistance to. Not a single mosque in the US has a program designed to combat this sort of indoctrination, and indeed the vast majority of mosques in the US preach a brand of Islam that is compatible with this sort of indoctrination. That’s Saudi petrodollars at work.

                The unpleasant fact is this. We have to play hardball with the Saudis. We can’t allow them to fund mosques, as that funding comes with strings. Such as requiring Saudi trained Wahabist Imams. We can’t allow Institute for Muslim Minority Affairs, which is the foreign policy wing of the Saudi Ministry of Religious Affairs, to operate in our country/countries. We have to stop pretending the Saudis are our friends. Ralph Adamo is to a great extent correct. Islamic terrorism largely exists because it is well funded. We are complicit in this. If I may divert my attention from the Saudis for a second, look at the monies released to the Iranians, which even the Obamaniacs had to admit would go to some extent to Hezbollah and Hamas.

                It’s simply unbelievable to me that we allow known sponsors of terrorism (how many of the hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi, again?) to operate with impunity in this country. That we deal with them as if they’re normal countries. As if they don’t have gallons of American blood on their hands. This attitude of ours must change.

                1. How can we turn the situation as is to our own advantage which is to build a way to let them assimilate the best we have to offer. One that comes to mind is the advantage of self government instead of government by government or government by religion and on those two I include all forms of control systems. This extends to schools, businesses etc.

                  In objectivism and this is after the first steps of identification and conscious realization of self and one’s own mind and abilities to think, reason, evaluate. but after that we examine and evaluate the nature of everything. It never stops and never ends. A short version is something called a target tour where those of us learning demolitions would go from one object to another bridge, factory, power plant etc. and learn the best way to destroy it to certain specifications. Do we destroy the entire bridge or just he part hat is a ramp leading to the structure itself.? This becomes second nature and I apply it every day just by looking at a new building under construction or what is the nature of a new type of agriculture.

                  Having done that we ask questions. Is it useful if so why if not why and what would it need to become useful or to be removed entirely.

                  The very last step each time the cycle is run is always ‘is it moral by my ethical standards.’ It’s a personal decision and responsibility only. No one else can forgive or applaud my errors, omissions successes. etc. but me.

                  What you depicted comes from a far different start point and culture a culture where religion and government are the same and invite no questioning and what depicted is in line with the Declaration and the Constitution as long as I make self governing responsible decisions

                  Of course I also have the advantate of some years and a broader education in various philosophies and ‘control systems.’ Understanding it is not the hard part it’s introducing the follwoing idea.

                  Can you objectively examine the nature of your belief and therefore control system with a view to proving it’s value or disproving it’s value to your own self. And either way examining how to improve or disprove in short apply your findings.

                  An example I remember was ‘do you have a fear of the dark?’ How does your belief system teach you to cope with that fear or take advantage of not having such a fear? How do you refine that result and make it useful? And then keep testing, improving or discarding?

                  I’m tarring a lot of belief system as you can see but no matter it is my decision and my responsibility.

                  So….too much but that’s the problem as I see it because of course I’m not as cognizant of the orignal problem and especially presented in the manner you presented it.

                  It is however work quite well in casting Mr. Trump as useful tool to help destroy the left from Dino to Rino and encourage others to make the same evaluation and arrive at their own decision. In examination it wa a no brainer as the study of the nature of things was aided by the thing itself “Lykoff’s Don’t See The Elephant ” The Muslim communmity other than the Kurdish version has not been as easy as the creatures of Marx and Engels. Best $9.95 for a Kindle version I ever spent.

                  Hmmm i found that an exercise in posing a question but then I included others who may have similar ideas. If you read this and are a subjectivist that follows the Plato route don’t even try. Lykoff already gave away your candy store and left you completely defenseless.

                  With my thanks and I’ve checked both blocks to ensure communication.

                  1. “…Can you objectively examine the nature of your belief and therefore control system with a view to proving it’s value or disproving it’s value to your own self. And either way examining how to improve or disprove in short apply your findings.

                    An example I remember was ‘do you have a fear of the dark?’… ”

                    Not once during my twenty years as a Naval Intelligence officer did I seek a “safe space” because of my “fear of the dark.” Contrary to Naval standards (NAVY after all meaning Never Again Volunteer Yourself) and
                    confident in my estimates I several times offered to go into those “dark spaces.” I was never taken up on the offer. I call them my “brushes with greatness.”

                    1. US Army means Uncle Sam Aint Released Me Yet. 24 years, retired, combat arms, never drafted. Later working for MSC that same attitude came in handy working with the Navy wannabes. By that time I had a 200 ton license and some real sailiing time. Now that was where the dark was handy with some of those waves coming up aft! Great way to put it by the way.

                  2. Do I have a fear of the dark? Yes, that’s why I venture out in the dark. I also have a fear of heights. Which is why I fast roped with the Marines when given the chance. Sorry, no opportunity to parachute. And the fast rope training was static; a Sea Knight helo was situated over the ass end of the flight deck and we fast roped down to the hangar deck. So it was only about forty feet.

                    1. Originally it was a swiss seat and a carabiner and a long slide down. The fast roping with gloves came later after my time. Technology has really improved things since those days and given our follow ons a better chance. The MSC story is watching our Guardian Mariners (National Guard from Puerto Rico) try to get an M2 .50 cal to fire. They forgot head space and timing. when I showed them the field expedient method. Our ships captain said, where did you learn that? He had no idea what his own crew knew but two of them were former Marines and I was the butt of their jokes ha ha. So the Army has war stories and the Navy sea stories because the Navy is all wet and the Army has a dryer sense of humor. So I asked what about the Marnes? “No such thing because whatever the Gunny says is Gospel but the coasties and the airfarce have fairy tails!” Who was I to argue with a former Marine?….back to business.

  7. I see that some dupes and dopes don’t understand that torture does work. All Islamoterrorists should be made to feel that they are going to be hunted down and get killed or tortured without mercy. Then you will see Islamoterrorists vanish into the ether, permanently.

    Here is some evidence that torture works. And, yes, I know this scene is from Scorsese’s Casino movie. But Scorsese and his screenplay writer Nick Pileggi, ripped off the idea from real life:

    1. Under torture the victim will say anything at all. That does not result in actionable intelligence, only extracted confessions.

      1. Wrong. In the example cited above, the victim divulged facts that the perpetrator was seeking. While it is true that a person being tortured may offer false information to stop the torture, that information can be checked out. The purpose of torturing is not to obtain a confession and cannot be used for that purpose for obvious reasons. But if the captive individual DOES have specific information to reveal, the fact is that torture CAN and DOES extract that information.

        My point is that not only does torture work, but that captured enemies must be made to believe that they will be tortured if they don’t cooperate 100%. When you’re dealing with Islamoterrorists and their protectors, they believe that American are soft, lazy, weak, passive, and Islamopandering. They are actually correct–under the Obama and mainstream media programming. That attitude HAS to change if America is to rid the world of Islamoterrorism.

          1. Actually it was the conclusion of the CIA. The career interrogators. It wasn’t what the political appointees wanted to say publicly.


            “Jose Rodriguez, the former head of the CIA’s Clandestine Service, defends the “enhanced interrogation techniques” used on high-level al Qaeda detainees and says he has no regrets”

            Torture does work. Which isn’t an argument to engage in torture. Chemical and biological weapons work, too, but I’m not a fan.

            But not all harsh interrogation techniques are torture. The Obama administration issued E.O. 13491 which limited interrogation techniques to what is authorized by an Army Field Manual.


            Interrogation Techniques and Interrogation-Related Treatment.
            tive immediately, an individual in the custody or under the effective control
            of an officer, employee, or other agent of the United States Government,
            or detained within a facility owned, operated, or controlled by a department
            or agency of the United States, in any armed conflict, shall not be subjected
            to any interrogation technique or approach, or any treatment related to
            interrogation, that is not authorized by and listed in Army Field Manual
            2–22.3 (Manual). Interrogation techniques, approaches, and treatments de-
            scribed in the Manual shall be implemented strictly in accord with the
            principles, processes, conditions, and limitations the Manual prescribes.
            Where processes required by the Manual, such as a requirement of approval
            by specified Department of Defense officials, are inapposite to a department
            or an agency other than the Department of Defense, such a department
            or agency shall use processes that are substantially equivalent to the processes
            the Manual prescribes for the Department of Defense. Nothing in this section
            shall preclude the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or other Federal law
            enforcement agencies, from continuing to use authorized, non-coercive tech-
            niques of interrogation that are designed to elicit voluntary statements and
            do not involve the use of force, threats, or promises. ”

            This is just a stupid over reaction in the opposite direction. If police agencies limited themselves to FM 2-22.3 they’d never get any information or a confession out of a suspect. That includes the “Federal Bureau of Investigation, or other Federal law enforcement agencies” who, I guarantee you, go beyond what can be described as “non-coercive techniques of interrogation” that “do not involve the use of force, threats, or promises.”

      2. Yes. Once. Maybe twice. But when the story doesn’t check out they’ll eventually tell the truth. All people do.

        Please note, I’m not advocating torture. But the “people will say anything under torture argument” is silly. It isn’t like your torturers are going to just let you go as soon as you blurt out what you think they want to hear. Don’t you realize that they know people will lie under torture?

      3. No spit sherlock you just figured that out. Why no complaints when the Obama Administration was doing it?

    1. That was Jackie Evancho. Thanks to the hollyweeds I now own all her albums.

    2. Was there a meaning to that or just the usual in denial caterwauling of the illiterate left?

  8. what happen to truth telling drugs? skip the torture… for in providing torture you breed a group of people who must do the deed. How sick is that? I do like that trump just says it, instead of all the merry-go-round of previous dances… but war and torture seems a bit outdated and fosters _______________

    1. War? Outdated? You must not have listened to the news for the last 16 years. That’s how long we’ve been at war and so far it’s cost us……..all our civil rights;……so tell me who won? Who vecame the real terrorists?

      That aside one minute of thinking you are going to drown versus all the drugs is a no brainer. but either way the law now says no so it doesn’t matter if it works or not. As Trump said the law must be followed. A point that the white identify secular regressives seem to constantly miss. Along with 48.2% is not a majority and some simple math stuff like that.

      1. Yes it is outdated. Sorry you did not see that memo. But there are no new lands to concur, generations have been living there forever. The wars today are all ‘manufactured’ for profit and power. Religious right want no abortions so that those children grow up for the sacrifice in wars, manufactured wars. Syria was a peaceful place, I have Syiran friends . Then those in the creation of wars, placed in there country factions to kill people and run them out of the country, definilty part of the Israel taking over more and more land that was never theirs.
        The COMPLACENT in the USA brought this all on their selves. Manufactured wars are not even legally declared anymore. People just buy in to very weak premises and look the other way.
        When we hire all lawyers for our governing structures, too many laws are spawned, and most are not really legal… but, few question it. So COMPLACENCY allows Wars and murder of our citizenship, for profit and power.
        War IS outdated.

        1. I see that facts mean nothing to you. War isn’t going out of style anytime soon. You may want to think you’ve evolved beyond it, but that’s just a form of sticking your head in the sand and encouraging more war.

          1. War will. But perhaps you want to be right so much you want to wage war with me??? You have tried degrading me with your cutting words. Does this mean war? Nope! Just two different opinions! I am a navy brat and been around soldiers and wars my whole life. Watching young men come back from the vietnam war, some of them stumps, no legs, and having no life to come home to is just wrong. War is just another name for murder and maiming humans. Facts change with the “teller”. Just look at the baffoon Trump who thinks a wall will keep out Mexicans. Well Texas is 45% Mexican or Mexican descent. We have walls with lots of tunnels under them. What works best, creating an endless war with our nieghbors, or combing efforts to create more work, better health and laws that actually work? We should be tight with Mexico and Canada… but NOOOOooooooo The USA is just one big Bully and we now elected the Big Bad Bully to show for it. And shallow people judge other people with their colored viewpoints and that just makes for misunderstanding which makes for war. Hope when you have a baby boy you will remember that when he get 18 he is just meat for the war factories. War is obsolete.

            1. Well I can’t say I disagree because i don’t but …..then I live on the other side of the border because you Gringos raised prices and devalued my retirement so much I can’t afford to live north of the border. Personally I think Mexico wjho provided only a part of the problem the rest coming from further south ought to build a wall to protect Mexico from any Central or South Americans that might get dumped instead of returned to their actual country. Now as for immigrants I see a lot of those who were north returning because a. there aren’t any jobs and b. the illegal gringo employers cheat them on food, wages and everything else. how much do you pay your maid or gardiner?

        2. All wars are based on economic reasons and if they are outdated how come they keep happening? Well, one reason is people are raised in the at mode. Saturday morning cartoons with get a sugar rush advertising and cartoons followed by video and computer games followed by violent contact sports and you expect anything else?

          You might change affiliation but you aren’t going to change the culture. If anything War is constantly updated and one only need to look at the casualty figures to prove that. …and a little study of history and judging each part of it in the context of it’s time and the same for ours will do you a lot of good.

          Those of us in the moderate center of the country welcome converts to reality.

            1. we need a spell checker that works the at was supposed to be that. even attack would have worked.
              Grump Grump Grump

  9. David,

    Obama has engaged in wars of aggression, torture, rendition for torture and the drone killing of American citizens to include a 16 year old boy.

    1. I opine that you are confusing Bush 43 with Obama 44. The latter outlawed torture.

      1. David,

        That’s just not accurate. I realize that is what we have all been told but it isn’t backed up by what we can know if willing to look into the matter. Just examining Gitmo alone, force feeding ordered under Obama has been declared torture. (See also, Chelsea Manning). Obama combined techniques in the AFM so it looked like he was following the law, yet when combined, they constitute torture-a slick move like so many others he has pulled.

        Further Obama engaged in torture at black sites and had people rendered under extraordinary rendition. It is the genius of Obama that so many people have no idea what he actually did during his time in office.

        There is also the complete condoning of torture by failing to follow our clear law on bringing those involved in torture to justice. Think about it. There’s a reason he failed to do so!

        1. Do you have a reliable link to Obama’s use black sites? We have been told they were closed so would appreciate any information you might have.

                1. Some detail from the article above: “JEREMY SCAHILL: In January of 2009, President Obama signed a series of executive orders that were intended to end the practices that President Bush and Vice President Cheney had implemented in the war on terror that candidate Obama had denounced on the campaign trail: torture, secret prisons, renditions. And CIA Director Leon Panetta said in April of 2009 that the U.S. was in the process of decommissioning all of its secret prison sites. Two months later, Hassan is rendered to a secret prison in Somalia.

                  AMY GOODMAN: Is it your sense that, for example, the ICRC, the International Red Cross, knows about this, is going in and visiting the prisoners?

                  JEREMY SCAHILL: There’s no Red Cross in Mogadishu. There’s no one in Mogadishu. There’s no—there’s no aid agencies. No one will go there. Prison visits? No, there’s not even a, you know, food distribution program that has any Westerners on the ground. They just—all of the white Westerners are hiding inside of AMISOM’s compound, the African Union compound, and Mogadishu is left to suffer completely. It is the most horrifying scene I have ever seen in my life. The prisoners held there, not only do they not see the Red Cross, they are not ever presented with charges. There is no court system to speak of at all in Mogadishu.

                  And, you know, the U.S. can say—can talk until it’s blue in the face about how this isn’t a secret U.S. prison, and at the same time confirm that they pay the salaries of the people that run those prisons and are running Somalia’s intelligence. “

                  1. Thanks for all your work. Just yesterday I was having a discussion about this with someone that insisted Obama had no such sites. Now I have the information I needed. Thanks, again.

                  2. Thanks Jill, I remember reading that at the time. Scary stuff. People need to wake up and hold everyone responsible, and reject the cult of personality.

        2. Thanks for the information.

          At some point, we should note that Trump has, by his 6th day in office, decided to defer to his very trusted appointee retired General Mattis, who apparently knows other ways to find all of these barbarians and rub them out so they don’t need to be in Gitmo getting any kind of discomforts whatsoever. We do not need thought and speech police in the USA like we have in the propaganda machine media. Mr. Turley is an honorable man and not part of that mercenary machinery. I’ll note that AttorneyTurley informed the US, including the left, over two years ago, that Obama’s executive overreach set a terrible precedent. He didn’t note here that Mr. Trump is more open and readable with his visceral sentiments. In the US, that is perfectly legal. Mr. Trump is not going to attempt to authorize torture even though his soul is tortured with the voices of the slaughtered innocents. He will authorize all necessary and legal means to destroy the barbarians of bloodlust. He will defer to those whom he has appointed to this task. Tulsi Gabbard has spoken to eye witnesses to the terrorists that Obama armed. If some of the bullets that kill these horrible butchers happen to fall into a pork barbecue sandwich just before being loaded by a female warrior….is that torture? OH WELL.

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