There is an interesting study out this week by two University of Kentucky researchers that the number of atheists may be twice as large as previously estimated. The number may be closer to 26 percent — an fascinating prospect given the politics surrounding faith-based initiatives and policies. As I have previously discussed, both parties have courted the religious vote and largely ignored the sizable number of Americans who are either agnostic or atheist. That number may be finally reaching a political tipping point for office holders to heed their preferences for secular government and the separation of church and state. We have previously discussed studies indicating that one out of four Americans may not believe in God. This study would seem to support those earlier estimates.
The researchers found that people tend to still be embarrassed in admitting that they do not believe in God. The result is under reporting of the number of atheists on past polls. Polls like Gallup and Pew put the number as below 10 percent.
Psychologists Will Gervais and Maxine Najle believe that there are significant numbers of “closet” atheists who are likely to shy away from saying “no” when asked “Do you believe in God?”
Indeed, one in three such people tend to hide their atheist views.
If that is the case, the number of voters who do not subscribe to faith-based lifestyles could be one in four — a huge voting block that could play a more significant role in future elections.
Here is the study.
I am an atheist but I do believe in Dog. I am an 8th Day Dog Adventist. On the 8th day God sent Dog to Earth to watch over humans and give them guidance. God then got out of the picture and committed suicide. Pray to your dog. Ask for guidance. If you do not have one then you are kind of up itShay creek without a paddle.
I would identify as a contemporary transcendentalist – there is certainly a force / energy behind the design of every living entity IMO. I don’t see any problem though if the aethieist voting bloc increases – I’ve met many people who profess to be Christian yet were total scoundrels. There are good and bad individuals in all camps of beliefs. I do think that secular humanism is similar to religion as they tend to proslytize as much as any fundamentalist religious person.
Squeek, have you read Mark Twain’s “Letters from the Earth”? .
https://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/ltrs-from-earth.pdf
I agree. There is a force. Call it energy, call it God, call it Life, call it Nature, call it All That Is, call it Late for Dinner. If you have ever had the honor of being with someone when they die, it is clear that the life force withdraws from the body. Whatever gave it life is now gone. Call it what you wish, but there is a force behind all living things, behind all of Creation.
“The force that through the green fuse drives the flower….” Dylan Thomas
“May the force be with you….” Obi-Wan Kenobi
Yes, I have. My father had the complete works by him. I also read the Diary of Adam and Eve, and Captain Stormfield’s Visit to Heaven.
BTW, if you have Amazon, you might want to check out Red Rock, which is an Irish police show-soap opera. I have been binge watching it since last Thursday or Friday. Oh, it is good!
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
I think we are seeing a post-Christian belief system taking root. It is equally invested in a culture of family, ethics, morality as the evangelicals, but sees no need to retain the traditional trappings and symbols, such as insisting on the existence of the Judeo-Christian God. The post-Christians are secular but not naive about the fact that a legalistic way-of-life cannot possibly impart wisdom, nor solve the myriad of problems and conflicts that are beyond the law books. The post-Christian mindset is one where each individual believer takes full responsibility for ethical, responsible behavior….it is internalized, and not depending on external authority, rewards or punishments. The “athiest” description is rather small and inconsequential to the post-Christian, whereas investment in moral-ethical development of youth is of great consequence.
Reblogged this on Welcome to My Corner Here on Word Press and commented:
Working away at http://www.thedailyoutsider.com as I picked this up–once again quite perceptive especially as indeed faith-based politics continues to be dominant especially by the likes of leading lights in the Conservative Movement in the United States including Erick Erickson (who had an interesting column out in his Resurgent Site this morning) and others……
The number of ‘closet atheists’ is nowhere near that except in the wish-fulfillment fantasies of these faculty members. Large numbers of people are religiously indifferent, but the number who actually have contrary metaphysical opinions are a small minority and commonly have an adolescent cast of mind (as you can see on these boards).
desperatelyseekingsusan – That you think most atheists have an “adolescent cast of mind” only reveals how little you know about atheists and how few atheists you know. I can think of many hundreds of atheists whose thinking skills and ability to argue a case would make you look to others as rather infantile. You’ve already made a good start at presenting yourself as such with the comment you made.
IMHO, most atheists are masters of the straw man argument. What, do you really believe that God sits on a throne, and the wall of Heaven are gold, and angels sit around blowing harps all day long??? How silly! Of course there is no God. Because they have limited their thinking to the obviously silly religious interpretations.
But I do not believe that the world and the Universe happened by accident. I think there is some Intelligence is behind it, but honestly I have no idea what form that Intelligence takes. Religions are just people’s way of putting some face on that Intelligence, and then trying to structure a civilization that works.
Sooo, to me having faith that there is something beyond this human existence, is not silly. And trying to structure a society accordingly is both proper and necessary. Cynically, if we are going to believe in fairy tales, why not believe in those that work, and produce a better society?
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Good for you, Doglover. Your friends and neighbors sound soooo superior to Christians. /sarc
There is direct correlation between atheism and exploition. God-fearing, rags-to-riches immigrants suddenly lose their religion when they realize their salvation has more to do with riding the backs of producers than with any god. If atheism is as high as 26% on average, then it would mean that atheism among highly paid bureaucrats is probably 75% or even higher. In Hollywood it may be closer to 100%. Communists are all atheists because they believe salvation lies with exploiting their fellow man. Church memberships are declining because technology is making it possible for fewer and fewer people to be the producers, while the ranks of the affluent increase — along with the ranks of atheits.
That number is higher than you think, Just add the people that believe in a political party that call themselves Christians but want nothing to do with feeding the hungry, or taking care the least of our fellow brothers and sisters. They read their Constitution like they read their Bible, only the parts they like.
What political party denies the existence of God?
FishWings, not sure how you know all these people, but those who do not help feed the hungry or take care of others are simply greedy and selfish, no matter what they call themselves.
Also, there is a very big difference between taking actions on one’s own to help alleviate the needs of others, versus voting in certain politicians who will force others to do it.
I would not be surprised to discover the number is even higher. Until about 9 years ago I was somewhere between agnostic and atheist. I was an active opponent of organized religion and thought very little about God and the origin of anything other than what was in my self-interest. I then began studying our country’s founding history. It was not until I really got into the DoI that I began to ask different questions. What did the founding generation believe that could have possibly led to such a document the world had never known? What were the laws of nature and nature’s God? What does self-evident truths mean? What are unalienable rights? Why was the “divine right of kings” wrong and a government ‘of the people’ right? How could the generation that provided us this form of government, designed to secure the rights of the people, be so right about the vision of equality and liberty and at the same time be so wrong about God and religion? Something was not fitting my paradigm.
I eventually understood truths that I hadn’t ever known: 1. human nature is a constant. 2. Every human being is created equal in natural rights. 3. Those that deny the former have been and will be a threat to the latter.
I now believe in God and I am a Christian. However, I do not need to believe in God to believe those 3 points above to be truths. In fact, I came to believe those 3 points to be truths before I came to believe in God and become a Christian. Many horrible things have been done to people in the name of God and still are being done. However the same can be said about atheists and all beliefs in between. What all these “beliefs” have in common is the denial of point 2 above, facilitated by the belief that human nature evolves. The threat to our country is not from those that believe in God or don’t; the threat is from those that believe all rights come from government.
“However the same can be said about atheists and all beliefs in between.”
Not so Olly. While it is true that there are atheists (Stalin and Mao come to mind) who committed horrible atrocities, they did not do so in the name of atheism or disbelief in God, as has been the case for a great many theists throughout history. They did so in the name of their political ideology/dogma.
ffs,
You have been kind to me on this blog and I thank you for that kindness. I am an atheist and I am not embarrassed to say this. When I hear you say that we are fearful of the consequences of being wrong, I have to tell you that this is one of my worst problems with the human vision of god. If there is a god who is so cruel and insecure that s/he needs people to worship them or else….then that is not a god/des I have any interest in.
That god/dess can exist and I really don’t care about them or their threats. I want no part of this god/dess and would consider them instead to be evil
There is so much violence in the world as it is, I’m not surprised people think of god/dess as being equally violent. “Believe or else” reminds me of our society. It’s Trump/oligarchy saying Syria gassed it’s own people so he’s gonna bomb them. It’s Trump/oligarchy saying that they are the only ones who should have nukes (no one should) and if you think otherwise, they are going to take you and a whole bunch of innocent civilians out. This is the god we know because this is the society we have.
I know we don’t and won’t agree on this.
That is one of my biggest complaints with religion, and I say that as a Christian. It seems like most denominations of Christianity, and most other faiths, believe that they, alone, are gong to heaven and everyone else is going to hell. Like Mother Theresa and Ghandi and little Ombran from Syria’s older brother Ali are in hell because they were not Episcopalians. That is due to the failings in human nature rather than religion itself. This is also why atheists, agnostics, and religious people can all be either wonderful, kind people or murderers. It all depends on the human being driving the activity.
This behavior is both comedic gold, as well as drives people away from organized religion.
Faith is supposed to be a positive in someone’s life. And if it’s not, perhaps they should fix it.
Karen – I taught both Comparative Religions and World Mythology. I could never figure out how everybody could be right at the same time. 😉
I recall a fabulous comedic routine about Hell being populated with all the Christian denominations, because only the Episcopalians got to go to heaven. But the Mormons did get an “A” for effort.
Karen S,
-According to a South Park episode, only the Mormons made it to heaven.😉
tnash – the heck with heaven, I want to go to Valhalla.
Paul – It seems to me that the reason you could never figure out how they could all be right is because they were not all right. But it is quite possible and easy to understand how they could all be wrong, which I am convinced is most likely the truth about the matter.
dogfightwithdogma – what is interesting is the similarities between many of the religions and mythologies, especially in their origin stories.
Jill, God is not cruel or evil, and actually “needs” nothing from us. He loves his creation, all of it, every one of us. There is nothing you can do to make God love you more, and there is nothing you can do to make God love you less.
When we believe in God’s manifestation of Himself in the form of Jesus, we are saved, and able to be in God’s perfect presence forever. This is not something we can do on our own, because we are inherently sinful in our fallen nature. God gives us free will. We can love him and try our best to obey and serve him as our Creator, or not. As we choose.
FFS,
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. As I said earlier, you have been kind to me and I appreciate that. I am glad to read your posts here!
One of the most moral and joy filled people I know is an atheist and an anti war protestor. She is 75 years old and peacefully protests several times a month.:)
Then it looks like she has simply substituted the anti-war movement for God, as her “Higher Cause.” She isn’t an atheist except in the “not-a-Christian” sense. But she worships, and has her own special religion.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Squeeky – You have drawn a conclusion here that goes well beyond what the information provided permits. Two pertinent facts were given. (1)The woman does not believe in God, (2) She is an anti-war protester. But these two facts do not lead to nor support your claim that she has simply substituted her anti-war protest activities for a belief in a higher cause and therefore these activities are a form of worship. There is a huge logic failure in your remark. That you want it to be true does not make it true. Is it possible that you concocted this explanation because it allows you to feel more comfortable about your own beliefs and avoid having to intellectually probe why a person would reject belief in God? To describe anti-war protest activities as a religion is to stretch the meaning of religion beyond all recognition and therefore render it as both meaningless and useless.
There are no atheists in fox holes.
I’ve always wondered if atheists are those for whom life has still been easy. I suspect young people would be more prone to not believe in God than those who are nearing the end of life, those struggling with cancer, disability, grief, or other difficult circumstances. To an atheist, death ends your existence and you just rot into greasy mud. What a hopeless feeling they must have when life kicks them in the teeth. Everyone will face tragedy and grief at some point in their life. Without hope in an afterlife or the love of God, there is no point to life, and no point in being good if you won’t get caught. There is nothing to keep you calm when you discover that it’s your turn to go over the falls. It sounds depressing.
I have known mothers who lost children. Their firm belief in God, and that they will see their children again someday, is the only thing that keeps them sane. My friend just recently wrote the most beautiful poem on the anniversary of her daughter’s death, on the day she was born. It was about her grief and pain, but also the shining light of hope that she would be reunited one day. I absolutely cannot imagine the additional pain to an already heart stopping grief that an atheist would suffer in their situation, or the quality of life they would have.
Karen,
You know that I like you a great deal. I am just disagreeing with you here. First, there is actually a group of soldiers called: Atheists in foxholes. “Atheists in Foxholes, in Cockpits, and on Ships
MAAF maintains a roster of Atheists in Foxholes, just in case there are any rumors that we don’t exist. The next time you hear someone repeat that old myth, just send them here to see how atheists have served honorably in combat – always have, always will.”
http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/
I would like to speak to your other points. Life being easy isn’t necessary to being an atheist or a believer. I’ve seen terrible things happen to atheists and terrible things happen to believers. I’ve also seen easy lives in both groups. Dying and not thinking you are going to heaven does not make life meaningless. Life is full of meaning because of other people and the world around us. The ability to feel both pain and joy are part of being human. Despair has come to most people at one time or another. Some people are comforted by their belief in god. Personally I don’t need a belief in God or the afterlife to feel there is a point to my life or to other people’s life. Life is enough for me. It has meaning and value.
It is not necessary or sufficient to believe in god in order to be a good person. We know this because many people who believe in god do very bad things. Many of us who do not believe in god live good lives. Atheists don’t act with a good will towards others because we fear god will catch us and punish us if we don’t! We try to live a good life because that is what makes life have meaning. (This does not mean any person lives their life without having done bad things.) It means, in general, atheists don’t act from fear of retribution but from a completely different motivation, to live a life worth living (helping others for example).
I am a person who thinks whatever helps people get through the death of someone they love, I want that for them. So, I hope this woman is reunited with her child.
The death of those we love is so painful. However, for an atheist, the people and animals we love have meaning to us after their death. They are always in our hearts and minds. We do not cease to remember them, to love them or to care about their life and death.
Well said, Jill!
I agree with Lee. Very well said.
Thank you Lee and Karen.
Ditto! Exceptional comment.
You are simply wrong Karen and a relatively modest investment of time to research the matter would have revealed this to you. There are atheists in foxholes. I personally knew at least one: Paul Kurtz. A philosopher and founder of the Center for Inquiry and The Council for Secular Humanism, Kurtz was a World War II army veteran who was an atheist during his entire military service and all the years after up until his death at age 86 in October 2012. There is no doubt in my mind – having personally known Kurtz – that he remained an atheist even at the moment of his death.
I don’t think they’re embarrassed to admit their atheism so much as being a bit fearful of the consequences of being wrong. Consequences which will last for all of eternity. Which is a very long time.
I also don’t think believers are the only people who live a lifestyle that could be described as “faith-based”. I know plenty of people with very similar morals and values and standards as I have, but they are not necessarily followers of Christ.
And please don’t bring up televangelist charlatans. There are crappy humans in all sorts of occupations who want to get rich in dishonest ways. Does Bernie Madoff taint all investment advisers?
I suspect Foxtrot that you don’t know many if any atheists, let alone have had conversations with any. There are a great many atheists like myself who have no hesitation about identifying as an atheist. I have no doubt – based on the current body of evidence (rather, lack of) – that God does not exist and that there will be no eternal consequences for choosing not to believe in the existence of any god. I submit that your explanation for why some atheists keep their atheism hidden has more to do with what you want to be true about atheists rather than reality about atheists. I personally know many closeted atheists. Not one of them remains so for the reason you offered. Instead they all have chosen not to make their atheism public because they fear a hostile reaction from family, friends, and society in general. I’ve not met nor spoken to a single atheist – and I’ve had conversations with many hundreds of them – who chooses not to reveal their atheism because they are afraid they might be wrong.
What is strange is the percentage of people who believe in a finite divine old guy who developed this real estate along with everything in it, and then went fishing. When one looks at all the different varieties of this entity, it becomes apparent that man created the concept. Therefore all the divine rules and regulations are a product of mankind’s experience. The good stuff is as obvious as the bad stuff. It’s all about free will and using that divine substance that inhabits the space between the ears. So, live as if there were a god, but don’t use the concept to avoid understanding that ultimately it is us where the buck stops. I do appreciate the religious stuff: art, architecture, literature, etc. Christmas eve mass in Notre Dame in Paris is well worth all those who paid for it. The Loire marriages, not so good.
I’ve been surprised by the level of hostility towards atheists. I went to a non-profit (that helps children to read) training. One of the questions on the form for volunteers was: What church do you go to. I thought that was a bizarre question! What does church affiliation have to do with helping young readers? Further, my former city has a Hindu Temple, multiple mosques, a large pagan community, multiple Jewish temples, etc. So even if one was religious, “church” doesn’t necessarily apply to all the religious people in town.
I inquired as to why they asked that question and pointed to the above information about our city. The woman leading the training was very surprised and upset. She fished around for something to say and then said, we just need to know what social organizations you belong to. I said, maybe they should reword the question to reflect which social organizations people belonged to.
In the part of TX I lived in it was assumed one was a Christian (usually some form of prosperity gospel). Now I live in a supposed “diverse” community where it is o.k. to practice different religions but you had better not be an atheist. Saying that you don’t believe will get you nasty treatment! It causes Buddhist and Catholic bead clutching! 🙂 It’s like Wellesley took over the town as a social experiment! (It’s not smart to say you don’t believe in the Democratic party either or that you read wikileaks.) Free speech for some!!!!!
So yes, I do understand why people just don’t say they are atheists or agnostic. You do get to experience some bona fide hostility many, many times followed by conversion attempts. It’s just not worth speaking up.
I’ve also met proselytizing atheists. They usually despise Muslims. OMG! That is truly obnoxious!!!!
Maybe they just wanted to make sure you didn’t belong to the Church of Satan, or had a fondness for NAMBLA.
Pastor Dr. Creflo Dollar explains how not to be deceived & walk in the spirit. Change your way of thinking…….And send in a love offering. $80 million/year is not chump change.
Did he get his new jet?
Yes. Tax exempt. Glory be.
whoa! PTL!
Judging from how many of my neighbors were out doing Spring yard work last Sunday, and then sharing the hiking trail with my family, I’m guessing that most people never think about religion. They are too busy appreciating nature, enjoying the challenges of their respective jobs, enjoying their families, and helping others whenever possible. They don’t define themselves by how or whether they think about ancient perceptions of the universe. Nobody should define themselves by what they are not.
“Nobody should define themselves by what they are not.”
Agreed, Doglover. If you think that anything beyond a handful of atheists define themselves this way then I submit you know relatively few atheists or have had very little in the way of conversation with the atheists you know about their worldview. I personally know well over one thousand atheists. Everyone of them does not define themselves by their atheism alone. The majority of them are – like myself – secular humanists, a worldview of which atheism is but a component. I am aware it can superficially seem that many atheists defined their entire person by their non-belief. But this is likely only because you hear them speak more often about their rejection of belief in supernatural deities, without asking them what is the framework of their overarching system of ethics, principles, values and beliefs.
From my discussions with them and as an older Christian, I would speculate that the under 30 crowd would be as high as 50%.
Thereby fulfilling Christ’s phrophecy upon his return in the last days, Luke 18:8 (KJV)
“I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”
As an agnostic, I have no problem with the question, Do you believe in God? My answer is yes. However, my God is not an active God. It was a creator God, a First Cause, an Uncaused Cause.
However, I do have a problem with atheists. There is no intellectual reason no to accept an Uncaused Cause and those who deny it are intellectually stunted.
Tend to join Paul on this question although I struggled with one question for some time umtil I followed my own advice and applied the tenets of objectivism with a bit of physics thown in. Yes there is some ‘force’ that created not only mineral but animal and then man (a catch all word) maning ability to thnik and reason logically and rationally and become personally cognizant of that ability. The main point was where did religion (as a general concept) lead to and since religion has long been a part of philosophy along with ethics and politics not just the usual metahysics etc the final step was easy.
Religion including it’s secular version is for those who are unable to make the first step of recognizing their own ability to think and reason and the second step of being self aware or cognizant….
Therefore it’s very useful tp people who are afraid of te dark and semi useful along with the secular version of people who are semi afraid of the dark and is 100% useful to those who use it as a way becoming the leadership using those other traits.
What then? Well one can lead to the darker side or the lighter side by developing morals, ethics, and virtures and apply ing them. Some such as our ‘leftists’ to use a ourely political term of their own making end up go one way. some go the other way. The difference is distilled to those who believe individuals aka citizens should be and can be self governing People over Government and those who believe Government over people is the way to go.
How does that work? To be brually frank, if it feels good and is more convenient the tendency is towards todays version of the left. The easy way out. Be it choice of religion or politics I am afraid of the unknown but these people promise me three hots and a cot and a new pick up and football on the toob.
The opposite self awareness and cognizance of self as a rational thinking reasoning entity not part of a mindless collective if much harder, requires developing morals and ethics and is always a daily project
Thus Objectivism wins the day and we follow ourselves not People Over Government including heirarchy of the religions of which secularism is one.
The first and perhaps only question asked sadly enough is I’m Afraid of the dark ….which path is more convenient…And that includes not admitting that choice publicly. Of course if you won’t admit it to yourself?
Thus we find on the left ‘government secular or religion over people is the order of the day and the way to avoid that endless squabble is stand aside. ….from thinking. take two aspirin and don’t call any one.
the keyboard struck again.
maning is obtaining ability
thnik is think
te is the dark
ourely political should be purely political
All of that closely follow the paths taken by Plato (subjectivism and totalitarianism though he later rejected it out of hand as unworkable) and Aristotle (which in the mid 1960’s finished it’s long development as Objectivism but not in time to stop Hegell, Kant, Marx etc thus. the world population did have a chance and did show it’s ‘dark side’ abilities by choosing to have no abilities …just a belief in mysticism and other world aolutions.
You don’t have decide which. If you are reading this you in all probability have done so or are here for other purposes.
the other purpose is an unexplained nagging feeling of the need to ‘think’ but the refusal to do so.
Michael Aarethun – I find turning my keyboard upside down and shaking it vigorously helps get those pesky sticky things out of the keyboard. 😉
It is unclear to me what is this God of yours? Is it a self-aware entity? Or is it just nature itself, unaware, acting by physical/chemical/biological laws and principles with no sense of purpose or intended design? Does it have any attributes akin to humans – such as intelligence, a sense of purpose, any supernatural powers, any ability to interact in some conscious way with the material universe and alter the universe? Can it perform miracles? Can it provide knowledge about itself, its desires for us and itself, through what Christians refer to as divine revelation?
dogfightwithdogma – my God does not interfere in the universe. It always was and always will be. However, it never reveals itself.
Mespo and Steve Groen are not surprised.