Four Arrested In Destruction Of Confederate Statue In North Carolina

Cfakepathmugshots212_20170816_180608There are now four protesters arrested for the destruction of a roughly century-old statue of a Confederate soldier in North Carolina.  The bold act of property destruction was carried out in front of news cameras in broad daylight.  As a history nut, it is painful to see old works of art destroyed in this fashion. The arrested include Takiyah Thompson, 22, Dante Strobino, 35, Ngoc Loan Tran, 24, and Peter Gilbert, 39.

These individuals were clearly unwilling to join the debate over the removal of confederacy images or figures.  Instead, they destroyed not just a piece of history but a piece of art that, if the community decided in favor of removal, could have been placed in a museum or alternative setting.

Thompson climbed the ladder to help pull down the statue, which was dedicated in 1924.  She is a student at black North Carolina Central University. The three men are affiliated with the Workers World Party, which helped organize the Durham protest in response to the protests in Charlottesville, Virginia.

Notably, police spotted Tran at the court hearing for Thompson when a deputy asked him to help identify two people . Tran refused and he was arrested.

Tran later tried to excuse his destruction of the statue as warranted due to the racist society in which he lives: “Monday night hundreds of people gathered in front of the statue, and it was the will of everyone there that that statue come down knowing that in the state of North Carolina there is no legal route for removing Confederate statues.”  Of course, there is a legal route through the legislature.  What Tran and his colleagues were not willing to do is to leave it to the legislative process and the collective judgment of the citizenry.  Instead, they simply imposed their will on the majority and destroyed a historical art piece.

They are charged with Disorderly conduct by injury to a statue (Class II misdemeanor), Damage to real property (statue as a fixture (Class I misdemeanor), 14-288.2(c) Participation in a riot with property damage in excess of $1,500 (Class H felony), and 14-288.2(e) inciting others to riot where there is property damage in excess of $1,500 (Class F felony).

454 thoughts on “Four Arrested In Destruction Of Confederate Statue In North Carolina”

  1. Jane Dailey, Contributor
    Associate Professor of History, University of Chicago

    Baltimore’s Confederate Monument Was Never About ‘History And Culture’

    Why would a city in a state that sat out the Civil War erect a monument to Confederate generals in 1948?

    08/17/2017 11:11 am ET Updated 1 day ago

    “This is the context in which Baltimore, a city with a large black working class and a prosperous African American elite, a top black newspaper, the Baltimore Afro-American, and a powerful NAACP chapter that included native-son Thurgood Marshall, chose to erect a monument to Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee. This seemingly “historical” move had nothing whatsoever to do with “heritage.” Three times as many Marylanders fought for the Union as for the Confederacy. This move was designed to intimidate African Americans and to reassure white Americans in a moment of rising black power. The 1948 Baltimore statue reveals the true intent of Confederate monuments and their makers ― and the intentions of those who march under their colors today. Perhaps it is time for another Freedom Train. Its first stop should be the White House.”

    1. NPR/Marist poll 62% of Americans, taken THIS WEEK, including the MAJORITY of black, Hispanic and white, OPPOSE this fascist removing of statues .And doing it in the middle of the night would tell anyone w/ an 80 IQ or higher that it’s not righteous!

      Oh, but thanks for the fair and balanced Huffpo piece. LOL!

      1. Duke is so wise. We all remember how thoughtful and temperate they were in their treatment of their lacrosse team.

        1. And, I direct all to the Marist/NPR poll above the Hillbot, frankly/SWM comment about Duke.

            1. The tide is turning, Hillbot. But you and your ilk don’t see it. If it comes to a gun battle between the left and right, who would you bet on, SWM?

              1. You sound very threatening. The centrists globalists took over the Trump White house so where is the power base for the white power people now. You all would be arrested in my community if you come after people with guns.

        2. Nick – we should never forget how Duke treated their lacrosse team and neither should they. And who can forget how they made their money.

    2. This seemingly “historical” move had nothing whatsoever to do with “heritage.”

      This woman’s rancid imagination is not particularly probative.

  2. Some powerful images:

    Toppling Monuments, a Visual History

    “In the United States, debates over Confederate symbols have been heating up for years, spurred in part by a series of high-profile police shootings of black civilians.

    “Another turning point came when Dylann Roof, a white supremacist with an affinity for the Confederate battle flag, killed nine black parishioners in a June 2015 church shooting in Charleston, S.C. Ten days later, an activist, Bree Newsome, climbed a 30-foot flagpole that was flying the Confederate battle flag, removing the banner herself.

    “About two weeks after that, South Carolina officially removed the flag from the State Capitol.

    “What becomes of these monuments, flags and portraits after they are removed from public spaces?

    “In Venezuela, the toppled statue of Christopher Columbus in Caracas was replaced by a likeness of Guaicaipuro, an indigenous chief who resisted Spanish conquerors. In Libya, the golden fist that was once in Mr. Qaddafi’s compound in Tripoli was moved to a museum in Misurata. In Ukraine, the thousands of Lenin statues dismantled in recent years have met all manner of fates; some have been painted over, others smashed to pieces, and still others stored in basements.

    “Officials in Charlottesville, Baltimore and New Orleans are still determining what will be done with the Confederate monuments that have crowned their public spaces for decades. But stories do not end when statues fall, Dr. Allais said. “We should definitely not think that historical legacies are made, or ended, only by destroying symbols.”

    1. When do we start taking down the statues of the sexist, homophobic MLK?

  3. Sharpton Targets The Jefferson Memorial

    The Left’s Cultural Revolution accelerates.

    August 18, 2017

    Matthew Vadum

    Racial arsonist Al Sharpton is demanding the federal government shut down the historic Jefferson Memorial in the nation’s capital because the long-dead president honored by the monument owned slaves.

    Thomas Jefferson, America’s third president, the man who wrote the justly revered Declaration of Independence, is also the man who penned this noble sentence: “I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” Perhaps he was thinking of future Al Sharptons when he wrote it.

    Boiled down, this is a case where one of the most important, heroic, inspirational, intellectually robust, accomplished, and beloved figures in American history is under assault by one of the most repulsive, cowardly, sociopathic, intellectually deficient, unaccomplished, and despised figures in American history.

    It was President John F. Kennedy who said at a White House dinner honoring a cohort of Nobel Prize winners from across the Western hemisphere:

    I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone.

    “Someone once said that Thomas Jefferson was a gentleman of 32 who could calculate an eclipse, survey an estate, tie an artery, plan an edifice, try a cause, break a horse, and dance the minuet,” Kennedy said April 29, 1962.

    No one has ever said anything similar about the dullard Sharpton, a vicious left-wing community organizer who, through his hate-filled racist and anti-Semitic rants, has gotten people killed.

    That anyone would care what a racial-hoax-generating charlatan thinks of Jefferson’s legacy is a revealing and sad commentary on the profound damage that eight long years of Barack Obama’s racial agitations inflicted on America. Sharpton himself is a living example of this ugliness and depravity; recall that President Obama made the vile so-called community leader a trusted confidant and brought his friends, the pro-cop-killer leaders of Black Lives Matter, to the White House as honored guests.

    Black Lives Matter is cheerleading the destruction of the republic. In light of recent events, Black Lives Matter Chicago is effectively demanding the repeal of the First Amendment. “After WWII, Germany outlawed the Nazis, their symbols, salutes & their flags. All confederate flags & statue, & groups should be illegal,” the group tweeted.

    Minutes later it added, “The fact that the Confederate flag & statues permeate the south is evidence that white supremacy was never overthrown in the United States.”

    Except maybe for the abolition of slavery, Jim Crow, and the advent of civil rights laws. Oops.

    But this desire to settle scores by shutting down the Jefferson Memorial is part of the Maoist-style cultural revolution unleashed by the Left in the Obama era and amplified exponentially in the Trump era. Every day or so there is a new fake, race-related outrage amplified by the dishonest mainstream media and cheered on by the resurgent left-wing fascist movement known as antifa, which has been embraced in recent days by the so-called conservatives at National Review and Weekly Standard, as well as by Mitt Romney, John McCain, and Marco Rubio. Tearing down statues has suddenly become fashionable and plenty of establishment Republicans and conservatives are apparently fine with the mayhem.

    They are aligning themselves with people like Al Sharpton who told CBS host Charlie Rose: “When you look at the fact that public monuments are supported by public funds you’re asking me to subsidize the insult of my family.”

    “I would repeat that the public should not be paying to uphold somebody who has had that kind of background,” Sharpton said. “You have private museums, you have other things that you may want to do there.”

    Jefferson “had slaves and children with his slaves,” he continued. “And it does matter.”

    Well, it doesn’t matter as much as Sharpton suggests and the claim Jefferson fathered children by a female slave or slaves may not even be true. The story started circulating in the form of a political attack on Jefferson. DNA testing in recent years has revealed that Jefferson, or any of two dozen of his male relatives, may have fathered the children of Sally Hemings, a slave he owned.

    Nor should the fact that someone in the past owned slaves when it was lawful and socially acceptable necessarily invalidate all of the person’s accomplishments. Slavery, which everyone today – except for parts of the Muslim world and perhaps a handful of spots elsewhere – acknowledges is a horrible, inhumane institution, used to be a well-accepted fact of life essentially everywhere in the world. At the time, slaves were property, after all; owners could more or less do what they wanted with them, no matter what we think of the institution today.

    This does not excuse what we now consider to be bad behavior from the past but it does place it in its proper context. Jefferson, whether he turned a single slave he owned into a concubine, helped to lay the foundation for its eventual abolition in the United States. Lamenting the scourge of slavery, Jefferson famously wrote, “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just[.]”

    When the Thirteen Colonies decided to break away from the British Empire, their leaders believed the new nation had to be as large and powerful as possible to survive, even if that meant allowing slavery in some of the new states. The Framers of the Constitution were largely opposed, and even embarrassed by slavery, which helps to explain why the Constitution forbade the importation of slaves after 1808 and did not even mention slaves or slavery. The compromise that allowed slaves to count as three-fifths of a person for the purpose of congressional apportionment wasn’t intended as an insult to the enslaved blacks, as Sharpton and other leftist demagogues routinely assert. It was inserted in the document to limit the voting power of the slave states in the hope that slavery could one day be abolished, or at least limited.

    “One cannot question the genuineness of Jefferson’s liberal dreams,” historian David Brion Davis has written. “He was one of the first statesmen in any part of the world to advocate concrete measures for restricting and eradicating Negro slavery.”

    So Jefferson embodies the contradictions of the American founding itself. When we condemn him, we condemn this great experiment in self-government we call the United States of America.

    We can still respect and admire Jefferson even if he slept with a slave in his household, an allegation that has not been proven.

    Something that Sharpton fails to grasp, or may be choosing to ignore, is that applying the ideas or moral standards of today to a bygone age is a very dangerous game that some call presentism. It is a recipe for disaster and it reflects the Whig view of history, a laughable school of thought that holds that progress toward enlightenment and other good things is constant and inevitable. Another way of putting is, things have never been better than they are today and each day things get better. It is not easily reconciled with the onset of the Dark Ages that followed the collapse of the violent but civilizing Roman Empire.

    (One of the best explications of the icon-smashing, anti-Jefferson position is a piece, “Thomas Jefferson: Radical and Racist,” penned by Irish writer Conor Cruise O’Brien in 1996. Whether Sharpton has, or even could, read it, is unclear.)

    And if the statue of Jefferson in his memorial is toppled as Sharpton demands, what happens next?

    The U.S. Capitol and the White House were built with slave labor. By Sharpton’s logic, they too must be torn down.

    If the same principle is applied consistently, everything associated with slave-owning presidents will have to come down.

    A lot of pages will have to be ripped out of American history textbooks, faces painted out of historic works of art, and statues melted down or pulverized. The creators of PhotoShop will make a mint.

    A quarter of the nation’s presidents will suddenly become unpersons.

    Twelve (or 13 if you count James Buchanan – see below) of the nation’s 45 presidents owned slaves, and eight of them owned slaves while president. (Actually, there have only been 44 individuals who served as president – Grover Cleveland, a Democrat, served two nonconsecutive terms.)

    Those who owned slaves while president were George Washington, Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, John Tyler, James K. Polk, and Zachary Taylor. Those who owned slaves but not while serving as president are Martin Van Buren, William Henry Harrison, Andrew Johnson, and Ulysses S. Grant.

    James Buchanan is a special case. In his home state of Pennsylvania, slavery was illegal. It could be said that he was not a slave owner de jure but was one de facto. While thinking about running for higher office, it donned on him that his sister’s ownership of two slaves in the then-slave state of Virginia could hurt him politically so he purchased them and made them indentured servants, bound to him for a fixed period of time. Historians Gary B. Nash and Jean R. Soderlund say many free blacks of the era lived in a sort of “twilight zone between slavery and freedom” in the Keystone State.

    Tearing down statues of presidents that modern-day Americans may not even have heard of – thanks to the union-dominated public education system – benefits no one except maybe for demolition companies, the occasional real estate developer, and direct-mail firms servicing Democrats.

    No good can come of it.

    1. bam, Good find. Thanks. Instead of black people seeing the current “white devils” oppressing them like Hillary, Pelosi, Schumer, et al. the white elitists have their main Step ‘n Fetchit attack people dead for 2 centuries.

  4. Robert Parry, today:

    President Trump’s ‘White Blindness’

    August 17, 2017

    Two brief excerpts:

    “The blindness of President Trump regarding racial bigotry – and indeed that of many white Americans – is that whatever they say to the contrary, they really don’t appreciate the evils of slavery or the ensuing century of lynchings and segregation.

    “A photograph showing the whipping scars on the back of an African-American slave.
    And, much of that ignorance comes from the systematic rationalizing and romanticizing of the ante-bellum South while shielding from criticism many of slavery’s historical apologists, including both Confederate “heroes” and earlier icons such as Thomas Jefferson who became a staunch advocate for expanding slavery all the better to increase his financial bottom line.

    “Although I grew up in Massachusetts in the 1950s and 1960s, our “history” textbooks could easily have passed muster in the Deep South. They treated slavery as an unfortunate feature of America’s past but not really all that bad, an institution in which most slave owners were kindly masters but a few employed cruel overseers who committed some isolated abuses like whippings.”

    He closes:

    “That the United States would honor people responsible for a horrific war designed to perpetuate slavery – leaders who authorized the outright murder of unarmed soldiers just because of the color of their skin – should shock the conscience of any moral human being although apparently not President Trump.”

      1. And there was this in VA, which you may already know:

        “Clean-up crews moved quickly after the damage was discovered Thursday morning to remove graffiti.

        “There was no permanent damage to the statue. Detectives continue to work to locate possible additional surveillance video of the suspects.”

        $$ and time will be saved by relocating the statues — to state the obvious.

        1. The SWM/Elaine tag team. We gotta come up w/ a wrestling tag team name for you..The Golden Girls!

    1. It’s hard for some of us who weren’t raised in the South. We weren’t surrounded by racial hatred. The fiasco over removal of Robert E Lee statue looked intentional. The group wanting the statue removed had a permit and were there to show their objection to the removal. Left at that, the removal would have gone smoothly. Instead a crowd, apparently spearheaded by various organizations (BLM, etc.) convinced a lot of people to show up without a permit. They brought forms of weaponry. Then a leftist drove his car into a crowd and killed a young woman. And we blame President Trump for the whole thing. Amazing!

      1. Oops! The group who didn’t want the removal had a permit to be there to protest. Sorry.

      2. It’s hard for some of us who weren’t raised in the South. We weren’t surrounded by racial hatred.

        Several decades ago I saw a summary of some survey research undertaken of black adults. The survey was done around about 1983, so the median cohort surveyed would have been born around 1943. Two questions: “Have you ever been insulted because of your race?” and “Have you ever been discriminated against?” The affirmative answers were 59% and 40%. Keep in mind that at the time 53% of the blacks in the United States at that time were residents of the South and north of 20% the Deep South. The social system in the Southern United States was deeply problematic and (see Ann Wortham’s account of the anger the black college students she knew ca. 1960 who had come from the Deep South, an anger she as a Tennessee native did not experience). However, it’s a reasonable inference (though not a slam dunk) that day-to-day interpersonal ugliness was atypical (though, of course, leaving a residue of resentment when it happened to your friends and relations). Recall Ralph David Abernathy’s reminiscences about what was so bothersome about Southern living: not the ‘white’ and ‘colored’ signs, but the refusal of whites to use ordinary courtesy titles when addressing blacks. Blacks were addressed by their Christian names, as if they were children. There’s something mordantly charming about Rev. Abernatthy’s complaint, given the relentless informality of this age in which we live.

  5. Really impressive of JT to have not once acknowledged, written about or delved into Trump’s various comments on Charlottesville.

      1. Ken – business leaders respond to their bottom line. However, Republicans are backing Trump 3-1. If they start boycotting those business leaders, it is going to be interesting.

  6. Now They Want to Tear Down a George Washington Statue

    August 17, 2017

    Daniel Greenfield

    The left has no natural stopping point. It keeps on going and going. Whatever its current stated goal is, it’s not a stopping point, only the next step. And yes, it doesn’t stop with Lee. It won’t even stop with Washington for that matter.

    But yes, George is next on the statue hit list.

    A bronze statue of George Washington on horseback stands at the corner of 51st and King Drive, at the northwest entrance to Washington Park.

    Bishop James Dukes, pastor of Liberation Christian Center, said he wants the statue gone, and he wants George Washington’s name removed from the park.

    And he’s got a great idea for the next step.

    He said he’s not necessarily asking the city rename the parks altogether. He suggested Washington Park could be named after former Mayor Harold Washington, and Jackson Park could be named after civil rights leader Rev. Jesse Jackson or singer Michael Jackson.

    That’s a tough one. Should Chicago name a park after a pedophile or a racist?

    The Pentecostal Liberation Christian Center has had its own local issues. All sorts of issues.

    Aretha Hence filed a lawsuit July 28 in the Cook County Circuit Court against Liberation Christian Center and James E. Dukes, alleging breach of contract.

    According to the complaint, Hence made four loans to Dukes for Liberation Christian Center on multiple occasions in 2007 and 2009 for plumbing work, legal fees and the church’s mortgage, but has only been repaid about $1,000.

    Hence further claims she lent Dukes $75,000 that he allegedly told her would only need to sit in his bank account for a bank to see in order to make the decision to grant the church a mortgage. The suit states Dukes on Nov. 18 made a sworn testimony the loans were not gifts and the church would pay Hence back.

    Both the church and Dukes are accused of breach of contract. Duke is also accused of fraud, fraudulent misrepresentation and negligent misrepresentation.

    Maybe the park should be renamed after him?


  7. Shouldn’t the nation’s courts be flooded with petitions for legal name change…. from all the masses of blacks who bear the surname Washington?

    As I understood it the reason there are so many is that after the Civil War it was suggested if former slaves did not wish to adopt the name of their particular slaveowner they could use the surname of the father of the nation, so to speak.

    Surely now this is anathema to millions? Along with all the other surnames

    Have the black descendants of Jefferson spoken up yet?

    1. San Francisco – the black descendants of Jefferson have been accepted into the Jefferson clan and are welcomed whole-heartedly to the annual reunion. The problem is they actually may be Randolph’s not Thomas’s. The oldest is not a Jefferson for sure.

      1. Oh yes I remember when that all happened…

        They were extremely proud to claim some sort of connection and campaigned for years for acceptance – or whatever it is…

        Entertaining how selective it all is.

  8. I’d be interested to know if Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee is in the process of getting her name changed. Are her constituents racists?

  9. They did it and will be prosecuted for breaking the law. They surely knew they would be caught and prosecuted. It’s the price one pays for such action. I’m sure they won’t complain about it as they did it in broad daylight and probably are going to be proud of paying that price.

    On another matter, Prof. Turley, you really should ban whoever posts here as Squeeky Fromm. It’s one thing to be a right wing nut but quite another to post such offensive, racist nonsense.

    1. you really should ban whoever posts here as Squeeky Fromm. It’s one thing to be a right wing nut but quite another to post such offensive, racist nonsens

      Can we clear out the adolescents (Ken, FishWings, Dave137), the silly fantsists (bettykath), the shrews (Natacha), and the lying shrews (Jill)? Or is it just the people who bug you?

    2. Horuss, You either believe in free speech or you don’t.

      If you do then you have to protect the speech of those you might not like.

    3. Funny, but everybody who calls me a racist here, never seems to define exactly why they think what I say is racist. They just throw out the canard as if it were self-evident, or something.

      I guess what I say just gets under their skin the same way as the little boy in the fairy tale, The Emperor’s New Clothes. And, they never seem to dispute the facts I present.

      Squeeky Fromm
      Girl Reporter

  10. Let’s see. One young black student and three members of a communist party that has never had a single candidate elected to public office tear down a monument to the noble cause of preserving a state of perpetual bondage for an entire race of human beings. Moral outrage ensues. While many of the regular commenters on this site go about the serious business of lighting Tiki torches, gathering rope and looking for a suitable oak tree to avenge this crime against civilization itself, perhaps the rest of us can take a deep breath and look at the issue as rational adults.

    First, I don’t know whether the statue in question was a masterpiece of artistry or merely another of a thousand generic sculptures gracing a thousand courthouse squares in a thousand county seats. And the truth is that it makes no difference. The law prohibits the act, the law was broken and the act must be punished.

    Second, it is beyond overwrought to compare this vandalism with the destruction of world heritage sites by religious fanatics or to perceive it as a precursor to attempts to remove the Washington Monument.

    Third, contrary to the assertion that the left is attempting to rekindle the Civil War, the movement to remove Confederate monuments is rather an effort to convince their defenders that the Civil War needs to come to an end, recognizing that as a matter of historical fact, most of these monuments were installed decades after Lee’s surrender in a passive-aggressive attempt to remind those who needed reminding that the Emancipation Proclamation be damned, Jim Crow is the law and you’d better remember your place in the social and political hierarchy. Well, Jim Crow is no longer the law of the land and it’s time to stop pretending that neo-Confederate sentiment is anything more than the gas rising from the pestilent corpse of racism.

    Fourth, whether the actions of these four people will achieve any sort of moral transcendence will depend upon whether they are willing to accept the judgment and penalties of the law. If they do not, they will be no better than common vandals. If they do, they will serve as moral witnesses to the truth.

    1. Mike Appleton, who professes to be a free speech purist, is showing his true colors. Being a Yankee, he does not cotton those hillbilly rebels. Like Mike Appleton, I grew up in New England and was indoctrinated w/ his “better class” doctrine. Well, being blue collar, ethnic, I wasn’t in Mr. Appleton’s class but you get my drift. The doctrine we New England children were taught was, “The South is loaded w/ poor, white, trash and need to be controlled.” Now, being just a half step up from white trash, I always had some incredulity. But, I sorta bought into it. Then I started to come out of that box. I lived in 8 different states, including below that “lower class” Mason Dixon line. My sister married a Floridian and lived in both Georgia and Texas. So, I came out of that box. I came to see there are indeed white trash, negro hatin’, cousin coitus, in the South. But hell, there are a higher percentage of that ilk in Boston, NH, Maine, etc.

      For some, this new obsession about the Civil War is understandable because of the ilk now teaching history in the Education Industry. But, I know Mr. Appleton was educated at a time when we were taught HOW to think, not WHAT to think, as it is today. I think that old Yankee indoctrination has been rekindled in our “free thinking” Mike Appleton.

      Here’s what should not happen. Thugs should not be allowed to destroy art. Mr. Appleton was not taught by the Jesuits to be so cavalier in dismissing someones art as “generic” w/o even having seen it. Second, Politicians should not be able to arbitrarily and capriciously remove art in the middle of the night. Mr. Appleton thinks I’m “overwrought” because I fear this will escalate. Well, Mike, it is escalating and it is folks on your end of the spectrum that are running amok. Any art should be protected, by National Guard if this continues to escalate. If the people of a community want to have these historical art pieces removed or moved, then a referendum OF THE PEOPLE should decide that, not a gang of Antifa.

      1. Nick — Since a referendum of the people is not the method that was employed in the decision to erect these monuments, why should it be used as the method to decide whether they stay or go?

        1. dogfight, Reasonable question,. Then how should these decisions be handled in your opinion. Are you down w/ removal in the dead of night like some alt left here?

      2. I thought Mike Appleton grew up in Texas and still resides in the South.You are getting people and their bios confused.

        1. SWM, Mike spent at least part of his youth in MA. He and I have discussed several topics involving growing up in New England. I always thought he might have been an Army brat, but never pried.

        2. Frankly — I think he get his BA from Harvard. Beyond that I don’t know.

          1. Guess he can tell us what he wants but he has told me he went back to Texas for law school.

            1. “…he went back to Texas for law school.”

              Yes, I think you’re right — now that I think about it,

      3. LOL. Nick, since you’re a crackerjack PI, I thought you would know more about my background than you apparently do. It’s hardly a secret. To begin with, I am neither a Yankee nor a southerner. I was born in the Bronx and lived in New York all of one year. Following a brief sojourn in Dayton, Ohio, my formative years were spent in California, Florida, New Mexico, Wyoming, Colorado, Alabama and Texas. I lived for six months in Louisiana at a Jesuit novitiate and four years in Massachusetts attending college. I returned to Texas for law school and wound up in Florida following graduation only because my parents had moved here in the meantime and were hoping I would settle here. I consider myself an American without a hometown. I have met wonderful people in each of the eleven states in which I have lived along with a few not-so-wonderful people. I believe that I could be happy living anywhere in this country.

        I know nothing of your New England “better class” doctrine. I am the first one in my family to graduate from college. My father was the son of a union machinist, my mother the daughter of a fireman. World War II ended my father’s dreams of college, although my mother did become a registered nurse. He served overseas for three years as an airplane mechanic in the Army Air Corps. My mother was an Army lieutenant working at the Greenbrier resort in White Sulphur Springs, converted to a military hospital during the war.

        For most of his life, my father worked for defense contractors, first on jets and then missiles, including a stint as in inspector at an ICBM silo near Roswell. His career meant transfers and occasional layoffs. He believed that if you couldn’t find a job where you lived, you moved to where the jobs were, and you took your family with you. He had no use for people who preferred unemployment to leaving the homes where they grew up and their parents and grandparents before them.

        I attended both public and parochial schools, including a tiny school in La Luz, New Mexico where I was blessed with two of the finest teachers I ever encountered, a husband and wife team who taught a combined class of 5th and 6th graders. I won my first scholarship in eighth grade, to a place called St. Thomas Military Academy in Minnesota. My father was ready to ship me off and only relented because of my mom’s opposition. For part of grade school, I was taught by Franciscan nuns who understood humility and simplicity. My high school years were spent with the Jesuits, who understood intellectual rigor and following the truth wherever it led. Since my parents couldn’t afford the tuition, the school was generous enough to permit me to pay my way by washing school buses and working in the cafeteria. My father made it clear to me that my job was to earn a college scholarship-period.

        After leaving the seminary, I took a job with an engineering company doing traffic studies for road construction. I applied for and received a full tuition scholarship to college. During the following four years, I covered room, board, books and other expenses by working variously as a summer camp counselor, book bindery assembly worker (my only union job), ward clerk in the college infirmary, straw boss on a wrapper leaf tobacco farm, house painter, bank teller and taxi driver. I worked full time in law school to support a wife and baby. There were no barriers placed in my path and I feel greatly privileged, but hardly indoctrinated.

        I’ll tell you what I learned later.

        1. Mike Appleton – spending time with the Jesuits clearly made a man of you. 🙂

        2. Mike, Contrary to the paranoid here, I do not investigate people here. I’ve found in my personal life that many folks get paranoid when they learn I’m a PI. Here’s the irony, I am one of the least nosy people you would find. That is unless I’m paid to be professionally nosy. Than I’m incredibly nosy.

          The most prominent recollection I have was during a pleasant discussion we had about working the shade tobacco fields along the Connecticut River. You were a supervisor, I was a picker, one of the few that was not Puerto Rican. So, I’m guessing that was in your late teens, early ‘s 20’s? It’s surprising to me you didn’t pick up the derision New Englanders have for southerners during your tenure @ Harvard, but I’ll take you at your word.

          i am sincerely grateful you took the time to share your background. I am an open book here and wherever I comment. Always use my real name and share my life, warts and all. Knowing a person’s background helps me understand them better. I’ve agreed, disagreed, vehemently disagreed w/ you over the 5 years I’ve commented here. I have always respected you. This forum misses your intellect and wisdom. I have little doubt you are not enamored w/ the way this forum’s commenters have changed. Well, Mike, I was met w/ venom when I arrived here by people I won’t bother naming. But, you were always a gentleman and I have no doubt will always be one. Thanks again for taking the time to let us all know about your life. When I taught history I would often say history is not about wars, voyages, conquests, etc. History is about people. And since history is about people, it spans the spectrum of abject evil to saintly good. My anguish over the attempts to sterilize history is real and apolitical. It dovetails w/ my other profession as a PI. I revere the truth and having searched for truth as a PI spanning 4 decades, I understand it on a profound level. I would recite this verse in public schools, much to the chagrin of colleagues and administration. But, as you might expect, I didn’t give a rat’s ass.

          “And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32

    2. Mike A:

      A few thoughts:

      First, it’s hard to disagree with your first point and harsh punishment is clearly in order for the brazen attempt to publicly violate the law and to demand to do so without consequence.

      Second, I see little difference between ISIS destroying their history versus our ideologues destroying ours. Maybe you can help me understand how not liking their history and destroying it makes our barbarians any different than theirs.

      Third, I have no idea what compelled folks in the early 20th Century to erect monuments to their fallen ancestors but maybe, just maybe, the “benevolence” of Northern Reconstruction has something to do with it. That and trying to regain a modicum of lost dignity the North so greedily denied their vanquished foe. I know it’s hard for denizens of this modern Identity Society to understand the sentiments of an Honor Society (sociologically speaking) but they ought to at least try before assigning unrepentant evil to it without even one shred of proof and even less insight. (Clairvoyance of the motives of long-ago dead persons doesn’t count as proof.)

      Fourth, these fine statute-tipping scalawags (Southern enough for y’all) are no better than common vandals under any scenario and their apparently hoped-for moral transcendence depends purely on who wins and writes the history. Gandhi transcends because he won; Marie Antoinette didn’t because she didn’t.

      Here’s one vote for Vandal Designation.

      1. Mespo, General MacArthur understood allowing the vanquished some dignity. My uncles who served in the Pacific HATED MacArthur for his gracious treatment of “the Japs” after WW2. I understood my uncles viewpoint and I understand MacArthur was absolutely correct. History has proven him correct. Baseball was an important tool in healing those wounds. The Japanese were the most savage enemy the country has ever faced. Well..until these Muslim savages came along.

      2. mespo:

        I take your point about the post-war treatment of the South. I also believe that had Lincoln not been assassinated, the history of that period might have been quite different. I also acknowledge that I am not familiar with the circumstances surrounding the creation of many of these memorials. However, I have read enough to know that many of them were erected during the 1920s, when Jim Crow legislation was being enacted with intense resolve and the Ku Klux Klan was enjoying a huge resurgence in membership. My father once told me that some of my own Ohio ancestors were Klan members. I have also learned that many statues were erected as a response to Pres. Truman’s orders to desegregate the military after World War II and the Democratic convention battles in 1948 that culminated in Strom Thurmond’s creation of the Dixiecrats. In other words, there is strong evidence that many of these monuments were intended not as memorials to the Confederate dead but as symbols of continuing southern resistance to advances in civil rights. That is why I do not find it surprising that for a black person growing up in the South, Confederate tributes are regarded as symbols of continued repression rather than as tributes to the valor of southern youth.

        I believe your comment on Gandhi is overly cynical. Gandhi won for the same reason that Rosa Parks won and for the same reason that the Berrigan brothers won. They were both prepared to accept the legal consequences of their actions with the hope that the rightness of their principles would ultimately prevail even if they did not live to see that day. They were prepared to drink the hemlock. And that is what I mean by moral transcendence.

        1. Mike Appleton – Rosa Parks was a set-up. The white officer who arrested her was sympathetic to the cause and was there to make sure she did not get hurt in any way. She volunteered to be the ‘victim.’ There is a lot of myth around the story of Rosa.

          1. She was the recording secretary to the local NAACP chapter, and the whole business was contrived. There were other volunteers for the role and previous incidents. The utility of having Rosa Parks do it was that she was presentable and had a tranquil disposition. One of the other volunteers had a history of uttering volleys of curses at police. Mrs. Parks herself was a rank-and-file local resident who led an ordinary rank-and-file life. Attempts over the years to make an icon of her are sort of…odd.

            1. DSS – I give her points for doing it and it needed to be done. However, I do not see her as an icon. I am sure she was a lovely woman.

        2. MikeA, Here’s my problem w/ your statement “for a black person growing up in the South, Confederate tributes are regarded not as memorials, to Confederate dead but as symbols of continued repression.”

          Firstly, have you noticed the color of the crowds in Charlotteville? The alt right was all white and the Antifa damn near all white themselves.

          Secondly, Yesterday in Madison, WI, hardly a southern enclave, the former Weather Underground mayor, Paul Soglin, removed markers of dead Confederate soldiers who died in captivity @ Camp Randall. This was not a symbol of oppression. It was a muted sign of respect for the dead!!

          Finally, A Marist poll shows a majority of black people believe Confederate statues should STAY. The polling is 44% stay, 40% remove, 11% unsure. So..there’s that!

          As the great Malcolm X would say, Mike, “You’ve been hoodwinked, bamboozled..” This isn’t about the lofty notions you eloquently wrote. This is about identity politics and control. The vast majority of Indians don’t give a rat’s ass about Indian mascots. It’s your liberal honky buddies w/ nothing to do but stir up hate.

          1. MikeA, That poll was taken AFTER Charlotteville, and when you include white and Hispanic polled, the total is 62% support statues staying. So..the majority of black, white and Hispanic, individually and compositely, believe statues should remain. I read the BBC daily. That’s where I got this info. You won’t find it ANYWHERE in the US MSM.

              1. Elaine is The Riddler today. WTF does your muddled comment mean? Do you have no response to facts?

                1. Probably a medication issue. Interaction between the blood-pressure medication, the anti-depressants, the oestrogen, the experimental drug she’s on to slow the dementia, and whatever haul she got from the doctor-shopping she’s been doing. You really should use only one pharmacy and have the pharmacist and your GP review the list. Specialists just lard stuff on.

                  1. I modified your comment a little, DSS:

                    Probably a medication issue. Interaction between the blood-pressure medication, the anti-psychotics, the Viagra, the experimental drug he’s on to slow the dementia, and whatever haul he got from the doctor-shopping he’s been doing. You really should use only one pharmacy and have the pharmacist and your GP review the list. Specialists just lard stuff on.

                    That’s a little more accurate. Thanks.

                    1. I modified your comment a little, DSS:

                      The dementia seems to have robbed you of your originality.

                    2. Nope, DSS: It’s about efficiency. Most people don’t have the desire to hang out here 24/7; most of us have better things to do.

            1. Nick, that’s public opinion.

              Latent in prog-discourse is the idea that ordinary people are unruly teenagers and we get to be ruled by judicial decrees issued by people responding to the table-talk of their lawyer friends and their hopelessly otther-directed business friends. Because reasons.

              Also latent is the notion that they’re seers who know the minds of numinous Negros, even though they have absolutely zero social contact with any ordinary blacks.

              1. Desperate, BINGO! This was actually an NPR/MARIST poll. Imagine the spinning heads in those elitists offices when they got these results. Here’s what that little cartoon bubble would show them thinking, “Don’t these f@ckin’ Negroes know we know what’s best for them??”

                I go back to Malcolm X. He saw this clearly before anyone else. He saw the liberal whites back in the 60’s as “the devil.” It’s gotten exponentially worse since then. Now they have Al Sharpton and Maxine Waters as their Step ‘n Fetchits.

                1. Have you read The Sellout by Paul Beatty? Mann Booker Prize Winner last year–first time win by an American author, IIRC. Funniest book I’ve read in years. Beatty is a genius.

                  1. Cape Cod, I just checked reviews. I will read it and I read almost exclusively nonfiction.

                    1. Nick – I am going to try to use it for my next book club. We need something funny. Everything lately has been Debbie Downer

                    2. I hope you like it. It’s very sarcastic, so it was just my style.

          2. You are exactly right! The whole Confederate Monument thing is something for liberal whites to do to make themselves feel good about themselves. It is masturbatory in nature.

            Will the black illegitimate birth rate go down as a result? Hasn’t yet. Will blacks quit selling drugs and murdering each other? Haven’t yet. Will black kids begin to value education? Haven’t yet.

            No. Nothing good will come from this except that silly liberal whites will experience an org*smic rush for a moment, take time to smoke a cigarette or two, before they are off to find some other faux good deed they can do for all those poor mistreated black people who bear no responsibility at all for their current lousy state of existence.

            Squeeky Fromm
            Girl Reporter

            1. The liberal Goldman Sachs “whites” in the Trump administration got Steve Bannon fired today.:)

                1. Guess he took the fall for the racist remarks although the statements were made by Trump. Gary Cohn was considering leaving and the markets were headed south.

              1. Oh noes! Not that! Now, that horrible Steve Bannon will be out loose in the public where he can say and do anything he likes and not be associated with Trump!

                Oh noes, not that!

                (Fake panic hand waving)

                Squeeky Fromm
                Girl Reporter

                  1. It doesn’t bother me. I like the guy, but the structure of the White House/government is not the best place for him. He is unconventional, and like Gen. Forrest, he just doesn’t fit into the whole “courtier” existence. I said before Trump won, that the best we could hope for in our societal decline was 4 to 8 years of minor reprieve, where we could buy more guns and ammo, and better prepare for the falling of the night.

                    The idiots outnumber the sane in the places where it counts, like the Press, the universities, and the government. I strongly advise you to begin preparing for the coming problems with guns, ammo, food, a bug out plan, etc. There may only be a 50% chance you will need them, but better to do too much, than too little.

                    I also dislike the globalists, but just like the antebellum South, the rich folks’ desire for cheap labor, and debt fodder, is going to cause all sorts of unforeseen problems for society at large. Plus, the world can not service the debt it has, and that day of reckoning is going to come, even for the United States. Ask yourself what happens the day the food stamps get cut off, or the day that there is little food for the food stamps to buy?

                    Venezuela is a country rich in resources, and the people are not a bunch of retards, per se. But they are reduced to eating their pets and their zoo animals. It could happen here, too.

                    Oh! I digressed!

                    Squeeky Fromm
                    Girl Reporte

            2. Squeek, You are correct about smokers. Liberal whites can’t give up those heaters. Either can their hero, Barack.

          3. You mean Mike Appleton’s a professional-class prog who attributes his poses and shticks to working people who have a completely different set of concerns and interests? Say it ain’t so…

          4. Nick, I was familiar with the NPR/Marist poll before I wrote my comment. I had come across it on the PBS site, you know, one of those MSM entities routinely trashed by posters here. I don’t know what the results establish, but they have no bearing on the point I was attempting to make since my argument is not based on public opinion, but on history.

            I had absolutely no consciousness of race until one evening in 1957 when I was watching the news with my father and saw film of a group of black kids walking toward the entrance of a high school in Little Rock, Arkansas. I was ten. The transparent fear on the faces of those kids and the sneering hatred on the faces of the white kids surrounding them is an image I will never forget. I remember nothing else from that report other than my father’s comment that whenever a politician mumbles something about “state’s rights,” what he’s really talking about is “keeping the Negroes down.” He was right.

            Earlier this evening I re-read the articles of secession adopted by South Carolina on December 24, 1860. After the obligatory references to the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the prerogatives of the sovereign states, that document gets down to the nitty gritty: the sacred compact has been broken by the combined efforts of abolitionists, northern states and the newly elected President to destroy the property rights of southerners in their most valuable assets, human beings, contrary to law and biblical truths. Efforts to disguise this central fact in high-sounding appeals to tradition and religion and distinct cultural values were undoubtedly useful in creating the mythology essential to inducing many poor white men to fight and die to protect the financial interests of rich white men, but myth employed in the pursuit of dishonorable ends we commonly call fraud.

            Robert E. Lee, the great secular god of the South, opposed the establishment of monuments to the Confederacy. Nevertheless, there are an estimated 1,500 of them scattered across more than half of the states. However, a only a relative handful were erected in the early decades following the war’s conclusion. The first, and largest, surge in the dedication of these monuments came hard upon the Plessy v. Ferguson decision in 1896. Another surge accompanied the resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920’s, followed by a third surge in response to Brown v. Board of Education in 1954 and the growing civil rights movement. In short, the monuments are largely symbols of defiance rather than tributes to young lives cut short.

            So, Nick, I suggest that the only persons who have been, in your words, “hoodwinked” and “bamboozled” are those who unwittingly died in the defense of a lie and those who continue to perpetuate that lie one hundred fifty years later.

          1. You may well be right. I don’t know anything about these kids or their motivations. We’ll see what their lawyers say.

            1. Mike Appleton – just who would you say should carry the banner of Sir Thomas More?

        1. Mike Appleton – California can leave anytime it likes, but it has to repay our costs of infrastructure, policing, military bases, etc. We will move the fleet to Pearl Harbor again and California will be defenseless. They can take in as many illegals as they want.

    3. Mike A writes: “First, I don’t know whether the statue in question was a masterpiece “

      What difference does that make?

      “to compare this vandalism with the destruction of world heritage sites “

      In other words you want to encourage barbarians, just not as bad barbarians in ISIS

      “ Civil War needs to come to an end”

      The Civil War ended in the 19th century and Jim Crow has mostly ended as well.

      “Fourth, whether the actions of these four people will achieve any sort of moral transcendence will depend “

      It was stupidity and arrogance. There are better less violent and less dangerous means to make a point. The anarcist side is taking over the ability of some to think.

      I understand the real frustrations of real people and I understand where you are coming from, but I think you could made the point I think you wish to make in a better fashion.

  11. The Commie/Fascist Liberal Progressives are running around tearing down monuments, now openly attempting to forfill their Communist Manifesto.

    As the lawyer Mark Levin pointed out in last night’s show that these American Hating Trash’s end goal is that after they remove everything related to the USA’s past involvement with slavery will the rejection/removal of the Declaration of Independence, the USA Constitution with it’s Bill of Rights!

    August 16, 2017
    Posted on August 16, 2017
    August 16, 2017

    On Wednesday’s Mark Levin show, The mainstream media — specifically, The New York Times — who are falling over themselves to play to their rabid base in excoriating President Trump as a neo-Nazi sympathizer. Trump condemned both sides of the violence in Charlottesville, and the liberal media are aghast that he drew a moral equivalency between Alt-“Right” and Antifa. The media are telling us that if we condemn Antifa violence, we must actually support the neo-Nazis. We don’t support them and you don’t have to accept the mantra and insanity of the Left. Did Donald Trump ever try to deny the Holocaust? No. However, the New York Times buried the Holocaust in its pages during WWII. Yet they dare to write an editorial on Trump, blaming him for the violence in Charlottesville. Despite the Times’ failure it remains the record paper of the left. It took them 50 years to recognize their gross negligence yet Trump is attacked for adding to his statement within 48 hours. Also, the Democrat Party is the party of the Klan and was tied to the Klan for years. The Democrat party throughout history was a party of Klansmen and segregationists. In 1924, the Democrat Party refused to reject lynching. Democrats voted to make Robert Byrd the number two Democrat of the Senate and eventually made him Senate Majority leader in 1977. You think we would hear about this but Republicans are too cowardly to speak up. After that, we and the left reject Nazism and white supremacy. Will the left reject Marxism, National Socialism, the ideologies that murdered 10s of millions? Will they reject the Marxist ANTIFA who is causing mayhem? Finally, the government is arming the terrorist group Hezbollah. Given that Lebanon is controlled by Hezbollah and a client state of Iran doesn’t that mean we are arming Hezbollah? Yes it does. This defies the logic that the Lebanese government could maintain control over this shipment without it being confiscated by Hezbollah first. We are placing ourselves against our own interests and aiding our enemies such as Iran.



    1. For reasons that I do not pretend to understand, Mark Levin and other illiterates are unable to hurl their pointless insults without mislabeling the Democratic Party as the “Democrat” Party. I guess they only read each other.

      1. Mike, They do it simply because it drives Democrats crazy. But a linguistic case could be made a Democrat[which you accept] is a member of the Democrat Party. I made an honest mistake back when the alt left ran this thread and MAN did it create a kerfuffle.

  12. The Religion of Peace strikes, yet, again, in Spain, mowing down tourists walking on a sidewalk. Their cohorts, here in the US, tearing down monuments, would make their partners, mighty proud.

  13. In case NickS is right, and we have a distinguished poetess in out midst, let me submit this poem, in the style of Edgar Lee Masters. Sorry about the title, but I could not pass up the pun!

    Here, You Lie
    A Poetic Conversation From A
    A Negro Cemetery
    From, The Coon River Anthology
    by Squeeky Fromm

    Dequarius Washington
    It wasn’t my mammy
    And it wasn’t me!
    It was that there statue
    Of Robert E. Lee!

    It was that there statute
    That made me draw,
    My Saturday Night
    On Johnny Law!

    De Shonte Jones
    Yeah, I heard that!
    Let’s keep it real!
    It was that there statute
    That made me “deal”!

    Then some Brother
    Wanted crack for free,
    Sooo, he shot me dead!
    Damn General Lee!

    Shaneeka Wilson
    It was old Marse Robert
    That Rebel Baddie!
    Who made me have
    Six baby daddies!

    Then one of them,
    I took to court.
    Done shot me dead,
    Over child support.

    Takonnawonda Jefferson
    It was General Lee
    Upon his horse,
    Who made me die
    From drugs, of course.

    I overdosed
    At twenty-three.
    All because of
    General Lee.

    Twi-Neshia Jones
    Robert E. Lee
    Made me a ho.
    I used to sell
    My self for blow.

    One down-low dude
    With HIV.
    And I’m laid low,
    By Robert E. Lee.

    Demarianna White
    I died before
    My sixth birthday
    When drive-by bangers
    Blew me away.

    I never learned
    Any history.
    But I guess I’m dead
    ‘Cause of Robert E. Lee.

    Someone, in a Chariot
    Here, you lie. . .
    And here you’ll stay.
    Except for the Child,
    Who I’ll carry away.

    Here, you lie!
    It’s plain to see.
    Not blaming yourselves,
    But, Robert E. Lee.

    Perhaps, one day
    The Truth you’ll see.
    Then I’ll take you
    Away with me.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

    1. Nothing short of brilliant, Squeeky.

      I watch in humor the tearing down of monuments – they will be left with an empty victory since they will shortly find that their hate and victimhood remain solidly planted between their own two ears. Wherever you go – there you are.

      1. And what plate of manure are you eating from? Cuz yer eatin’ it too my friend. Only you don’t know it and you keep asking for more. 😉

        1. When she not shining her statues of Hitler and Putin she writes crap like that, and the Trump sycophants eat it up. Its like she yells “SUEY SUEY”

          1. OH!!! What you just said is sooo racist towards Chino-Americans!!! Insinuating that their food is pig slop!!!

            Because when you call pigs, it is soooey soooey, not suey suey! If there was a statue to you, I would pull it down! Chop Chop! Which means “fast” in Chinese. In the Mandingo Dialect, not the Cantina one.

            Squeeky Fromm
            Girl Reporter

          1. Thank you, FFS!!! How can he say it was “simple minded” when it had the “Here you lie” and Here, you lie!” interplay??? Because that is pretty deep philosophically speaking, if I do say so myself. I am sure Dante would have used it in one of his circles of The Inferno, where the liars were, if Italian was the same as English. Although the languages are kind of kin. . .

            Or, as they say in Rome, “Si chiama Ken e torna indietro. . .”

            Squeeky Fromm
            Girl Reporter

            1. Oh, so you admit that you only half-read stuff! No wonder you are such a monumental half-wit! I would paraphrase Shakespeare and say that you are “the half-part of a blessed idiot”, (blessed, in the intensive usage of the word) but no, I think you are the full part. Plus, nobody has ever read that play anyway. But, you do deserve an Irish Poem! A full one, not half. No half measures for me! (in the poetic sense.)

              Half A Mind???
              An Irish Poem by Squeeky Fromm

              There once was a fellow named Ken.
              And half-reading things was his sin!
              Oh, the things that he missed,
              Like half of the gist!
              No wonder his Logic’s sooo thin!

              Squeeky Fromm
              Girl Reporter

            2. Im guessing you half-think things as well.

              GD apologists – im sick of you all.

    2. Squeek, You are the anti-PC champ of this blog and the most talented poet to ever post here.

Comments are closed.