Trump, the 25th Amendment and The Demise of “The Goldwater Rule”

Barry_Goldwater_photo1962donald_trump_president-elect_portrait_croppedBelow is my column in the Hill Newspaper on the effort to remove President Donald Trump through Section 4 of the 25th Amendment.  I ran a column a couple days ago in the Washington on the constitutional and procedural issues of a 25th Amendment attempt.  This column looks at the medical and historical aspects of the controversy.  The effort appears to have picked up steam this week with reports of Democrats reaching out to psychologists — just as they did against Barry Goldwater.  The demise of the “Goldwater Rule” is a dangerous development.  I have no more idea of Trump’s mental state than I do other leaders.  What I do know is that claims of narcissism or other conditions are unfounded absent an evaluation and far more serious evidence of mental illness to justify a 25th Amendment effort.

Here is the column:

After years of quiet existence, the 25th Amendment is suddenly all the rage. In many ways, it is not surprising. The 25th Amendment would seem like an ideal fit in our age of rage. Rather than find the still elusive “high crimes and misdemeanors” against President Trump for impeachment, many demand that he simply be declared as mentally ill and thus unfit to hold office. This growing “25 and over” club has rallied around the amendment as a way to prematurely bring an end to the Trump administration. However, this argument ignores not simply the language but the implications of such a removal. A declaration of Trump as unfit on these facts would set a dangerous precedent, not just in constitutional law, but areas like health care. Indeed, the failure of politicians and advocates to even acknowledge such implications of their 25th amendment campaign can only be described as mania itself.

160px-Mike_PenceAt the outset, it is important to note that the removal of Trump under Section 4 of the 25th Amendment is just about as likely as his election to the College of Cardinals. Such action would require the support of Vice President Mike Pence. Even if he were inclined to Trump’s “et tu Pencus” moment, Pence would have to be joined by a majority of the cabinet to just get the matter before Congress. If Trump objected, which would seem likely, Pence would have to secure a second declaration with the cabinet and then secure a two-thirds vote from not one but both houses. An alternative course using a congressional commission requires the same vote and the cooperation of Pence.

The concern is not that such an effort would succeed but that so many are willing to discard any ethical or constitutional concerns in pursuing a 25th Amendment removal. The use of alleged mental unfitness is a common avenue for attacking one’s opponents in authoritarian countries like Iran, Russia and China. It is also nothing new in the area of presidential politics. The most serious such abuse occurred in 1964 when Republican Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona ran against Lyndon Johnson.With the help of the media, Goldwater was portrayed as a war monger hell bent on nuclear war, a claim powerfully depicted in the “daisy countdown” commercial showing a child counting down to an atomic explosion with flower petals. Such commercials, however, were not enough for Fact Magazine, which decided to issue a special hit job on Goldwater. The magazine sent out 12,356 letters to psychiatrists asking if they thought Goldwater was mentally ill. Only 2,417 responded, but a majority of those responding stated categorically that Goldwater was unfit due to mental illness, a manifestly unethical conclusion reached without evaluating Goldwater personally.

Goldwater_fact_magazine

Goldwater was diagnosed as a “megalomaniac,” paranoid,” “grossly psychotic,” and, in what is now being raised against Trump, someone suffering from “narcissistic personality disorder.” Some doctors reached incredible insights into a man who they never spoke to, including one who said that “inwardly a frightened person who sees himself as weak and threatened by strong virile power around him.” That is all the magazine needed to proclaim across the front page, “Fact: 1,189 psychiatrists say Goldwater is psychologically unfit to be president!” Goldwater lost by a landslide, despite the fact that there is no evidence that he actually suffered from such mental illness. In response, the American Psychiatric Association adopted the “Goldwater Rule” to bar doctors from making such unethical diagnoses of individuals without evaluating them. It appears that ethics, like constitutional principles, are more often honored in the breach in both politics and psychology.

Faced with unpopular president, various mental health professionals have publicly declared Trump to be mentally unfit. One group, Duty to Warn, recently marched in Washington, D.C., to call for a 25th Amendment removal on the grounds that Trump “suffers from an incurable malignant narcissism that makes him incapable of carrying out his presidential duties and poses a danger to the nation.” Of course, if we actually removed narcissists from Washington, the empty streets and cafes would look like a scene from a 1950s post-apocalyptic movie. Narcissistic personality disorder is defined as “grandiosity, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration. People with this condition are frequently described as arrogant, self centered, manipulative and demanding.” Sound familiar? The question in Washington is not who fits that definition, but who does not.

220px-Abraham_LincolnThere is no evidence that Trump is mentally ill. However, if he did suffer from narcissism, it would pale in comparison to prior presidents, including some of our most celebrated. Various presidents suffered from depression and other mental ailments. Indeed, one study of the first 37 presidents found evidence that half of them exhibited signs of mental illness. Presidents like Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln exhibited symptoms of clinical depression. Dwight Eisenhower was formally diagnosed with depression. Teddy Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson, the very president responsible for the Goldwater “countdown” ad, are viewed by some experts as bipolar. Calvin Coolidge could barely function after the death of his son and would have angry and unstable outbursts. Edith Wilson effectively took over the presidency for Woodrow Wilson.

440px-John_F._Kennedy,_White_House_photo_portrait,_looking_upJohn Kennedy not only suffered from severe physical ailments, but he took a cocktail of drugs that would have made Michael Jackson gasp. Prescribed by a doctor later known as “Dr. Feelgood” for his liberal dispensing of narcotics, Kennedy regularly took both uppers such as amphetamines and downers such as phenobarbital, as well as a mix of pain killers, sleeping pills, testosterone and cortisone shots. From John Tyler to Donald Trump, the critics have challenged the legitimacy of unpopular presidents to serve as a convenient alternative to elections. However, many of us had hoped that we had transcended such stereotypes of mental illness. The vast majority of mental illnesses are treatable, and people can have successful personal and professional lives under treatment.

Indeed, in O’Connor v. Davidson in 1977, the Supreme Court ordered the deinstitutionalization of thousands of citizens who were wrongly deemed incapable or unfit to live in society. For that reason, the American Disability Act generally prohibits discrimination against those who suffer from mental illnesses absent narrowly defined exceptions. Many of us in teaching have strived for years to assure students that they can be open about depression and other illnesses without fear of professional repercussions. Some of our most famous lawyers, judges, reporters and others have diagnosed mental illness. One in five people in the United States suffer from some form mental illness.

Even if Trump were a narcissist, it would not constitute the suggested prima facie case for removal under the 25th Amendment, which requires a showing that a president is “unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.” The standard is not whether he is discharging those powers well but whether he is capable of discharging them. None of this will quell the “25 and over” club in desperately seeking an end to the Trump administration. However, the increasing call for a Section 4 removal under the 25th Amendment is what these same pseudo-psychiatrists might call a collective “mood congruent delusion,” a condition reflecting the manic mood of critics drawn out by every new Trump tweet.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University. You can follow him on Twitter @JonathanTurley.

157 thoughts on “Trump, the 25th Amendment and The Demise of “The Goldwater Rule””

  1. All of this does raise the question, is there any level of bizarre or uncouth or ill-advised behavior which would justify removing a President from office? Is there anything Trump could do or say, to which people would say “he’s gotta go!”

    1. Woodrow Wilson had a stroke and was kept incommunicado by his wife and his doctor. If you want to understand what triggers the amendment, start there.

    2. Is there anything Trump could do or say, to which people would say “he’s gotta go!”

      Earth to Jay: So ladies and gentlemen…I am officially running… for president of the United States, and we are going to make our country great again. June 16, 2015

      And now that he’s President of the United States, The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

      This is not that difficult if the constitution is your guide.

        1. In Introduction to Reading Comprehension, you will learn that Olly is telling you to examine constitutional language to understand contra what criteria to assess the president. Re the 25th Amendment, the definition of incapacity is ‘unable to exercise the powers and duties of his office’ not ‘annoys Jennifer Rubin’.

          Your low-rent lawyer / social worker on this thread attempts to finesse this by claiming Trump is suffering from ‘frontotemporal dementia’. She has no evidence of this, so she invents it, claiming that Trump cannot speak coherently and then attempting to sell this idea by peddling the notion that anyone who cannot detect his language problems must be stupid.

            1. No, the answer is ‘Jay wants ‘no there isn’t’ to be the answer so is refusing to read and understand the actual answers given him.’.

        2. This is not that difficult if the constitution is your guide.

          You’ve apparently answered that question. Here’s a Civics 101 hint: This is a legal blog; guess what is the Supreme Law of the Land?

    3. Let’s see….Bill Clinton disgraced the Oval Office by making a young intern his personal humidor, got impeached, finished his term, stole the furniture on his way out, and even had a corrupt, incompetent wife make not one, but two failed attempts at winning the presidency herself so the Clinton Crime Family could move BACK in. So to answer your question: Trump will be in office for at least 3 more years and possibly 7 more.

  2. The Demo🐀​🐀​ were just fine with Obama having Axis I Dx of NPD with delusions of grandeur and touches of paranoia. I’m a therapist and he fit the criteria, he demonstrated many of the symptoms 11 out of 13. Obama he couldn’t carry a sentence w/o the use of “I”, “Me”, My”. He reacted with rage or contempt, would belittle others to appear superior, became nasty, arrogant, and revengeful if he was criticized or denied anything. He continued to play golf showing zero empathy when Daniel Pearl’s head was severed or James Foley). Yeah Trump as well as most presidents display some NPD symptoms (Trump 3 or 4 out of 13) but not to the extent of BHO. Trump falls into the same catagory as do many others in the spotlight e.g. politicians, actors, TV personalities, musicians.

    1. “continued to play golf showing zero empathy” …. So what has Trump been doing down at Bedminster and Mer-a-Lago, whilst Puerto Rico drowned and our soldiers killed in Niger? Reading up on military history and political theory? Or learning some economics or science? Naaahhh……. Fore !!

      1. maybe you should consider the whole Africon situtation which was set up under Obama! Our guys being picked off (not killed) in Niger was par for the course. Cause they do not and never have cared about people in the miitary. Also harsh as it sounds PR is not different than Haiti

    2. I am puzzled by 4frespeech’s comments. I listened to many of Obama’s speeches. He came across to me as thoughtful (if a bit professorial) and not ranting or raving or claiming “Only **I** can ……” Whom did Obama belittle? Whom did Obama label with crude epithets? When was Obama “revengeful”?

      1. agree Jay! And, I share in being puzzled with 4freespeech. No therapist would equate Axis I with any personality disorder or the features they listed, as this person indicated. It is inaccurate. Further, “BHO” possible use of “I, me, my” words is an example of taking responsibility for decisions. Conversely, Mr. Trump is psychologically incapable (not conjecture or meant as slander) of insight or taking responsibility for anything. We need look no further than his daily examples of the dog, Hillary or #fakenews ate his homework.

        1. Mr. Trump is psychologically incapable (not conjecture or meant as slander) of insight or taking responsibility for anything.

          I would be good for all of you to get your hyperbole coordinated. You bash President Trump when he brags about all the things he has done and now we are to believe he is incapable of taking responsibility for anything.

          Thank you for your professional and unbiased opinion anyway. Wow!

          1. Olly:
            I am not clear. Is your argument that “when President Trump brags….” should be viewed in the SAME light as him taking personal responsibility for executive decision making?

            My (professional) comment was related to -personal- responsibility. It does take a degree of emotional sophistication and a degree of empathy.

            1. for anything.

              Your not clear? What part of “for anything” didn’t you understand in your own statement? My “argument” was in response to your comment. If you now are modifying that comment to acknowledge it was hyperbole then that’s acceptable.

              As for how I perceive President Trump taking personal responsibility, I look no further than his oath and fidelity to the office. His actions are commensurate with someone that takes responsibility for the oath and office seriously. His communication style less so. Given the choice, I would prefer his communication style matched his actions. After 8 years of President Obama, I am sufficiently pleased we no longer have a President who’s all hat and no cattle.

              1. Olly: My question remains unanswered.

                It’s not useful to discuss someone off topic. I am here to talk specifics of article only. Thanks, though.

                1. My question remains unanswered.

                  Sure it was; it just wasn’t the answer you were looking for. Do you believe President Trump should be removed from office under the 25th amendment?

      2. Jay S – watch Obama’s town hall at Fort Lee and witness his disdain for the military

  3. There isn’t one politician that isn’t narcissistic to some degree. ‘I want to make a difference.’ is, in reality, ‘Only I can make a difference.’ Trump’s narcissism borders on and crosses into megalomania as illustrated by his outright attestations to himself as being the ‘only one who can make a difference’. He made that statement during one of his debates, following his bashing of everyone else, “Only I can make these changes.” This alone is not enough reason to get rid of him and it certainly isn’t grounds for impeachment. Most Americans would love to see him impeached, either because they see him as he really is, an incompetent buffoon, or simply for the spectacle, as politics in the US is nothing more than that to a large part of the population, or both.

    The way to get rid of Trump is to vote his orange a** out of office in 2020 and as many Republicans in 2018. The Republican Party has illustrated that its only interest is power and ideology, putting all practicality and the public’s best interests aside. Trump is simply incompetent and in over his head. His tactics worked well enough for a rich brat born into wealth, privilege, and connections who went on to pander to the mega wealthy and be a circus ring master at the same time. Trump, with his bottomless pit of money can navigate the real estate industry bobbing and weaving, winning some and losing others, shafting his workers and the banks, going bankrupt in one venture while selling out in another. He is master of that game. However, that is not the game that should be going on in Washington. Regardless of whether Trump pays himself whatever he wishes, he is in well below his pay grade as President.

    Cries for impeachment are justified in a democracy; but America is not a democracy; it is an oligarchy. In a better system, a parliamentary system, a leader of this low stance would be filtered out and into the back benches. If anything argues for a change in American government structure it is this, that an imbecile of Trump’s ilk, made it into the White House. Trump should remain on the factory floor and not be allowed into the offices where decisions are made. Trump is the guy with the megaphone yelling to the rubes, “You just happened to be coming along at the right time.” Sadly, a lot of rubes happened along last November.

    There are serious problems with the Democrat Party, almost all politicians on both sides, and above all the system itself. However, Trump eclipses all of these, even Clinton; but impeachment is not the answer. The answer is for those who are not easily dragged over by cajoling shysters to pay attention and vote his fat orange ** out.

    1. Democrats shot themselves in the foot by shafting Bernie and putting up Hillary Clinton as their candidate. They gave us Donald Trump. And given the Sophie’s Choice election between Clinton or Trump, I chose Trump. At least with Trump we get less oligarchy and more fun. Hillary would have been MORE oligarchy and far less fun.

        1. We would be more likely to be in a nuclear war if Hillary got elected. Iraq? She voted for it. Libya? She pushed for it and Obama said it was the worst mistake of his presidency. Then she laughed about it: ‘We came, we saw, he died. Haha.’ She has even said if she were president, we would attack Iran. Hillary has awful judgment as she has proved over and over right up to and including all of the colossally bad decisions she made in her easily winnable presidential campaign. Trump is more likely, IMO, to solve the NK issue and keep us out of war than Hillary ever would have been.

  4. For at least 40 years, political discourse has had a feature wherein the media manufacture some s**tstorm and Republican politicians issue ‘apologies’ (commonly after the media calls other Republican pols on their rolodex and gets quotations from them ‘urging’ the Republican politician in question abase himself). Through these means, Republican politicians lose standing and the direction of political discourse is influenced. It also reinforces the sense of self of the media and the social sectors of which they are apart. Trump refuses to apologize, tells these frauds to go hang, and prospers. The effect of this has been bouts of disorientation and rage on the part of the media and others. Other politicians with more Dutch courage and presence of mind than cretins like Paul Ryan may take Trump as an example The media have lost control and they know it. So, they’re upping the ante.

    1. Another reason I voted for Trump. I knew he wouldn’t play their games of “let’s get the Republicans to cut off their own balls”.
      MAGA.

  5. Isn’t there something in 25th amendment about removing mental Dumocrats from office. Suddenly the real story about Russian collusion and the Dumocrats is being hushed.

  6. If Trump suffers from “malignant narcissism” then let’s also look at Hillary’s incurable sense of “narcissistic entitlement” -as Julian Assange called it. Hillary’s greed, lust for power and sense of entitlement has been well known for decades. She’s proven to be a congenital liar and behaves as if she is above the law and has no shame or remorse – only more narcissistic entitlement. She had to return furnishings to the White House after she and Bill looted the place when they moved out, I mean who does that? She is married to a serial womanizer who was impeached and has been acccused of rape by multiple women while her inner circle includes convicted sex offenders like Anthony Weiner and now Harvey Weinstein, yet she hypocritically puts herself out there as a champion for women? People fear for their lives if they cross Hillary Clinton. There are conspiracy stories about the Clinton body count. And with the Russian collusion itshay boomeranging and hitting the Clinton’s smack in the face, now people are actually whispering again about who is on Hillary’s hit list and if her private server has enough storage space on it to hold her growing list of betrayers and enemies. I’ll take Donald Trump’s brand of narcissism over the Hillary Clinton kind any day.

  7. I’m getting tired of agreeing with Turley. I can’t even disagree with his new blawg photo.

    There might be one thing, however, that our Master of the Hounds has overlooked: The peril that Section 4 of the 25th Amendment might be repealed as an overreaction to its potential misuse. What if we need Section 4 of the 25th Amendment someday for a legitimate case of non-compos mentis in the POTUS?

    The current calls for invoking the 25th from people who lack the constitutional authority to do so could . . . er, uh . . . What’s three-fourths of fifty? Thirty-eight? And how many red states are there? I forget. Oh alright. Never mind.

  8. Trump has “early morning juvenitis”. This is not a mental illness. He is just antsy in the morning. Like about this time and when he did not get laid. By the way. He has the most attractive wife in the history of the White House. He is one lucky dog.

    1. Those eastern-European mail-order brides generally come equipped with large personal-flotation devices.

    1. Independent Bob – “Trump won and some people just can’t accept it!” is the understatement of the year. 😉

    2. I accept it. It doesn’t mean that I need to roll over and accept all the boorish and thoughtless words and deeds.

      1. Those eastern-European mail-order brides generally come equipped with large personal-flotation devices.

        Like those kinds of boorish words, Jay S?

        1. No, it would have been boorish to mention b**bs or knockers headlights or t**ts. Personal flotation devices are encouraged by the Coast Guard.

  9. After we analyze The Donald, can we also analyze the Supreme Court and all 535 members of the house and senate?

    1. Independent Bob – I say shut the government down for a day and all government employees take the same test, set up as a double-blind with the same number of CA residents. Really every day the government is shut down it cannot hurt us. Then with those results in hand, we could cull the sociopaths, psychopaths, etc. who have been hiding in our government. Plus, we would have a baseline for CA so if they decided to secede, it would make the decision easier. Do we really want these people as part of our country or not?

        1. Jay S – only if the entire staff of both the RNC and DNC take it. I was thinking of using the Minnesota Multiphasic, it does have 500 questions but it is hard to beat.

  10. The Impeach Trump movement is one of many attempts to give a voice to people who oppose the Trumps’ actions and or his attitudes that many find offensive. By complaining about Trump they provide a context for a discussion about the dignity of the role of an American President.

                  1. Jay S – I have often wondered just what the hell Freud was since he seemed to have a fondness for other people’s fetishes. 😉

                    1. Sigmund was the polymorphic perverse personality by proxy (a.k.a. a voyeur).

          1. Chris Bacon – if the administrator took your advice, Marky Mark Mark would be gone.

      1. David, are you going to join your fellow Alt-Left and SCREAM-FEST on November 8th?

        I’m looking forward to a lot of great melt-downs in videos. 👍🏼

    1. Impeachment talk also seems to be “one of many attempts to give a voice to people” who oppose Putin, too.
      Referring to impeachment, Maxine Waters said that “after we’re done with Trump, we have to go after
      Putin”.
      Not sure what the procedure is for Congress to impeach Putin, but maybe it’s spelled out in a provision of our constitution that I’m not aware of.
      Procedure aside, one of Rep. Waters’ reason for impeaching Putin is that “Putin is advancing in Korea”.

    2. Sure and bank robbery gives voice to the oppressed criminals allowing them to focus group on better ways to redistribute income. Do you ever think before you write? You can complain without sounding like a fool calling for someone’s head you don’t like.

    1. In the movie “They Day the Earth Stood Still,” earthly doctors — both puffing away nonstop on their cigarettes — are amazed to learn that Klaatu the space alien (who of course doesn’t smoke) has a much longer life span than we do. Gee, I wonder why.

      1. Jay S – the funniest scene about smoking is when they are giving Bob Fosse an insurance physical in All That Jazz and the doctor is smoking like crazy. Maybe he is smoking, too. The scene is bizarre.

      1. Casinos and especially fake universities are still around but on hard times. You can tell because they still hire folks like our dim-witted professor here.

  11. Narcissism is not a mental disease anymore. They removed it from the DSM when Obama was elected President and people were knocking him for being a narcissist. I think a lot of members of the APA have not gotten an updated DSM.

    1. Actually, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is one of 10 personality disorders listed in DSM V, the current revision. However, it is not that easy to diagnose. Cannot be done by looking at the checklist in the DSM. Takes several evaluations with the patient, also with family. A complete medical work-up must also be done. I have long grown weary of all the “diagnosing” of President Trump. The left will most likely say he should be impeached because he is white.

      1. Roydenoral – if I were Trump I would require a DNA test to prove I was white. Hell, he may be half black, like the last President. 😉

  12. Psychiatric M.D.s are bound by the Goldwater Rule. So are the psychologists in one of the two societies. Not so for the other one.

    I think that The Donald ought to undergo an examination to determine if his brain is healthy. I have doubts that he is all there.

    1. Agreed about the benefit of brain scan.

      Disagree about the “bound” part on Goldwater Rule. I think MD’s, PsyD, PhD, PhilD’s argue that it is a guideline vs legally binding. Clearly we are not talking about doctor/patient confidentiality. That is a HIPAA matter. Further, the Goldwater Rule was designed pre DSM and therefore no longer relevant. [As diagnosis are no longer made based on a Freudian theories but rely (mostly) on -observable- behavior from multiple sources.]

      One of the things the ‘DutytoWarn’ group contends is that their professional opinion be accepted same as any other specialist. Common example is: Monday night football there is usually a sports medicine specialist commenting on the latest injury of a player -they have not physically assessed, diagnosed or treated- but are paid by the networks to muse using their clinical judgement, to offer prognosis and likely treatment with the audience.

      Seems reasonable.

      Some feel so strongly they have resigned from affiliation from the APA due to their lack of support.

      1. This is so stupid. How many of these paid medicine specialists on Monday Night Football have the power to remove a player from the the game based on their “observations”? Your analogy is silly.

        1. Jim22:
          Perhaps I was not clear. There are a few parts being argued under the Goldwater Rule. The one discussed above is that mental health professionals are in a sense barred- from discussing or debating, positing POTUS MH diagnosis’ or concerns -in the public domain-. Therefore, the NFL example is apt.

          Homework: watch nightly news for the expert Cardiologist discussing untimely demise of important public figure that suffered cardiac arrest, when it sadly next occurs. Specialist can serve an important function to educate the public.

  13. I have to state that our host’s column brings us interesting and informative reading; it is sad that the basis for this pursuit of information is a complete waste of time. Rather than President Trump’s opposition submitting credible arguments or even objective support of his policies and actions, the intelligentsia of our country is forced to lend its time discussing false assumptions.

    Again, I am not denigrating our host, but if the president’s detractors could offer something meaningful it certainly will elicit opportunities for rational thinking among the population.

  14. Thank you for this article. It is important in the continued age of discrimination and stigmatization of people diagnosed with mental illness, to educate the public of the many highly functioning, successful people who live with a mental illness.

  15. you can be very frustrating sometimes, Turley. More homework would indicate that the argument of mental health professionals is that he (Trump) has something quite rare- likely [Malignant] Narcissism, which is all of the personality disorder on steroids. The argument is not that he is mentally ill, indeed he is not. No one is contending that. The issue is that he is a danger due to -impulsivity- alone. (there are other issues around judgement, competence, etc) That may seem nuanced but it is actually quite serious, and his peculiar set of conditions is quite serious. His twitter fight with Corker is an example. Corker, is on TV commenting, and within minutes, he is commenting using belittling language. No one can control his compulsions. This man, is POTUS, not, just the CEO of NBC’s next episode of the Apprentice. Although, I am not sure he knows that. And, according to reports, an actual former Apprentice candidate is literally being considered for one of the open Asst. US Attorney positions as we speak. Has been personally interviewed by T. Let. That. Sink. In..

        1. enigma – Trump was the candidate selected by the people, just not CA. No one can be expected to run all 50 states, Hillary sure didn’t. 🙂

          1. Like in Wisconsin where approximately 50% of the people got 75% 0f the representation. He was the candidate selected by fewer people, we can agree that that’s true.

            1. By your usual pathetic and ignoramus logic, the Senate must be immediately abolished. Do you often waste time musing about “what could have been?”

              1. I’m sorry, Joseph is it? You probably got low marks on playing well with others. Actually, the Senate isn’t affected by Gerrymandering and Redistricting. Just the House and State governments. I’m curious as to how the Supreme Court will rule on Wisconsin. Can even they ignore how far we’ve gotten from one person one vote?
                I spend no time musing about “what could have been.” Just how to make it right.

          1. The second part of your statement is more or less true, not the great margin he claims exceeding others in recent history but large enough. The first part I’m not sure what you mean? If you’re saying he won by the rules that is equally true. If you’re saying he won the popular vote except for the millions of illegal voters he alone claims. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

        2. No elected office in America is decided by a national popular vote. The president is decided by 50 independent state elections. Each state decides who can be on the ballot, who can vote, how to vote, where to vote, when to vote, and so on.

          Trump won the “popular vote” in 30 states. Hillary in 20 states. By that measure, she did worse than any presidential candidate from either of the two major parties since Bob Dole.

        3. Once you remove the illegal aliens, dead people, duplicate voting with absentee ballots and such,

          It was a very close race in the popular vote.

        4. I have to say, it’s really, really fun kicking your logic and up down the street, stealing its lunch, eating it, and dating its sister, against its wishes.

          “HRC did lose by the rules, and was not the choice of the only people who matter, the Electoral College. How badly was HRC slaughtered in the EC?”

          Further: “How many States did HRC not visit in which she lost, States which her husband said publicly she must visit? (Several.) “Is there any limit to the number of black and white lies a DNC candidate can publicly announce before the DNC changes course?” (No.) “Was the DNC nominating process totally stolen and corrupted by DNC/HRC/MSM operatives, after which the traitor Bernie Sanders still went along and supported the worst candidate in US history?” (Yes.)

          And finally: “Is there any level of corruption and lies told by the DNC that would cause the very non-enigmatic so-called ‘enigmainblack’ to leave the comfort of her DNC Plantation?” (Never, ever…)

          enigmainblack, proving how right was LBJ in saying, “We pass this bill and these n_____ will vote Democrat for the next two-hundred years.”

          1. You are not refuting logic (which isn’t the basis for my argument which is simply that Hillary got more votes). Is there much I could criticize about the Democrat nomination process, candidates, and Party? Sure! Will Republicans be an option as long as the party suppresses votes? Not a chance.
            Your LBJ quote has only one biased source, although he was quite familiar with using the word. There is as much “proof” of Trump using the word and on tape but we don’t know for certain. The quote we’re sure of is that Democrats would “lose the South for a generation” which proved to be an underestimation.
            Provide me a better option and who knows? I’m certain the Party of Trump, Sessions, and Bannon isn’t it.

        5. OK, I’ve had enough of DNC sycophants like you crediting HRC for getting more “popular votes.” I’ll leave aside now the fact that we have no idea how many of her votes were legal.

          If it is tax deductible (I pay a lot of taxes), I shall forward $25 to the erection of a statue of HRC in DC, with the inscription, “An F for effort (for not even visiting prior blue States which she lost), and blown away in the Electoral College votes, but still cherished by many Americans.”

          Plantation-dwelling DNC sycophants like yourself can make an image of this statue your avatar.

          1. For that matter, do we have any idea how many Trump votes were legal? Or were they all legal, just by definition?

            1. The resistance to voter ID and audits is coming from the Democratic Party. Only the obtuse need ask why that is.

      1. “Trump is the choice of the American people. You’re not. To hate him is to hate them. Get over it.“

        Everything is ad hominem with you. And based on your illogic all the Republican hate of Obama reflected their hate of the American people. Makes sense.

        We must “heel” the country.

        1. Ah tut, tut three Dave do facts “trigger” you? Does the truth get your PJs in a knot? Republican obstinacy was every bit as bad as the Democratic variety and I said so at the time. The only slight difference might have been that the Republicans might have realized that an Administration willing to sell 20% of our uranium reserves in the face of a government bribery investigation might deserve some obstinacy.

          1. Mespo, it has not yet been ascertained that the FBI counterintelligence division bothered to tell anybody at the CFIUS about the FBI’s investigation of Vadim Mikerin and the Tenex subsidiary of ARMZ before CFIUS approved the sale of Uranium One to the ARMZ subsidiary of Rosatom in 2010.

            The best you can get at present is to presume that a long list of people ought to have been either fully or partly informed of the Mikerin/Tenex investigation; including McGabe, Rosentsein, Meuller (till 2013), Comey (after 2013), Holder, HRC, the other members of CFIUS and possibly even POTUS and Congress.

            Given the FBI counterintelligence division’s reputation for being extremely tight-lipped, independent and zealously protective of its intelligence assets, McGabe, Rosenstein and Meuller might have been the only one’s informed, whether fully or partly, of the Mikerin/Tenex investigation at the time of the CFIUS approval of the sale of Uranium One to ARMZ/Rosatom in 2010.

            It reminds one of the famous cone of silence from “Get Smart”–except it’s not at all funny.

            1. If you believe the FBI withheld crucial info, then Mueller gets indicted for certifying the deal with knowledge of its nefarious underpinings.Either way it’s a Trump vindication.

              1. You may have a point, Mespo. Unless Mueller or Holder, for that matter, can cite legitimate national-security reasons for withholding vital national-security information from a committee organized to protect the national-security interests of the United States. As strange as that sounds, Mespo, Mueller et al may have been more interested in keeping the investigation going into Russian money-laundering networks in Cyprus, Latvia, Switzerland and Seychelles. Failure to certify the sale of Uranium One to Rosatom might have tipped our hand to The Russians.

      2. this is off topic. there is no reference to win/lose/election/hate/like.

    1. Progressives are easily and frequently “frustrated” and surprised by mere reality, such as the reality of losing elections, even after nominating the most unfit candidate in the nation’s history. .

      1. Corker and Flake are leaving because they know definitively that they will lose their upcoming elections.

        The noises that Corker and Flake are making are the sounds of the “Swamp” being drained…

        mellifluous tones indeed!

    2. Corker and/or Flake say Trump is a threat to democracy. If this is true, then of course Corker and Flake owe the nation to stay and fight this evil Satanic Hitlerian Trump. And yet, they both walk away, only to let Trump run roughshod over this poor innocent nation of victims.

      Both walk away from their duty, their duty to fight. Why? Because Trump and Bannon won, because both of these corporate owned slime balls would lose their respective primary.

      Respect and sympathy for Corker and Flake is ill-conceived.

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