Debtor Nation: Both Trump and The Democrats Pile On Debt To A Crippling Deficit

The one major issue upon which President Donald Trump and the Democrats agree (and are working diligently toward) is unlimited spending. Both parties have torn balance budget limit to shreds as they throw hundreds of billions of dollars around like soundbites. As a result, the respected Congressional Budget Office (CDO) is now projected that debt could reach 92 percent of the GDP within ten years. In other words, an economic meltdown caused by politicians who act like children in spending without any notion of how we will actually pay for these programs.

Image credit: Congressional Budget Office (CBO)

Pelosi and Trump are moving to add up to $2 trillion more to the decade in the next ten years.

In the meantime, presidential candidates are pledging everything from free college to new homes if they are elected.

What is most disturbing is that CBO released its projections and nobody cared. There was virtually no coverage and members of Congress and the White House are joined in avoiding the subject of our crippling, runaway debt.

The last thing that either Pelosi or Trump want to discuss are lines like this one: “If current laws generally remained unchanged, growing budget deficits would boost federal debt drastically over the next 30 years.” the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) warned in a June report.

Or how about this one? “Debt would reach 92 percent of GDP by the end of the next decade and 144 percent by 2049. That level of debt would be the highest in the nation’s history by far, and it would be on track to increase even more.” The fact is that both Trump and Pelosi will be out of office by then — celebrated by their hardcore constituencies. This will become a problem for someone else — and of course the country. The world itself will be impacted by a collapsing U.S. economy but again that could a decade away — an eternity for politicians who share narcissistic DNA.

Of course, as the impact of this debt takes hold, the very same members will express outrage and demand action. Trump is reportedly already telling staff that he intends to try to control the budget . . . in his second term.

169 thoughts on “Debtor Nation: Both Trump and The Democrats Pile On Debt To A Crippling Deficit”

    1. Plus the $64 million for his Florida golfing weekends, plus the millions more for his NJ golfing weekends.

      1. I pretty much have a source for any factual claim I make. When it’s my opinion I think it’s obvious. Here’s a breakdown of an estimated $92 million. As to your claim, the Defense Dept contributed $1.2 million, the Interior (Parks Dept) another $2.45 million, City of Washington $1.7 Million. I assume you’re merely mistaken and not lying.

        https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/16/trump-military-parade-expected-to-cost-80-million-more-than-estimated.html

        1. CNBC is your source? Is that because MAD Magazine is no longer in print?

          Tell us about your outrage that Hillary outspent Trump 3:1 and lost out of stupidity and arrogance. Tell us how you are fit to be tied with the US House Democrats burning through taxpayers money since assuming leadership of the House and doing nothing for Americans but conducting theater and grandstanding to denigrate the Presidency.

          Stop hating America or leave it. Pretty simple

              1. Estovir should be banned for his racist attack on enigma. What a a jackass and hater of everything America stands for.

                1. “he’s anonymous as are many of the cowards on the Internet who are suddenly emboldened in the Trump era…..
                  It’s no surprise there’s racism on the Internet. What’s disappointing is that among a bunch of regulars, the ones that would take great umbrage at being considered racist. stood by and said nothing. I’ve reached the point where I’ve concluded you’re either with racists or against them. No middle ground.”

                  Hey man i have been called racist so many times earlier in my life when I wasn’t, that i eventually began to believe what i had been told about “endemic racism” and “you’re a racist even though you don’t know it.” now they call that “implicit racism” and “white privilege” so many decades later. i guess i gave up trying to convince black folks that I was not a racist so many decades ago when i realize you think ALL OF US are racists, basically

                  isn’t that right? isn’t that the “legacy of white supremacy” we hear about all the time?

                  and if we are so afflicted, i ask you a serious question: WHY SHOULD WE CARE WHAT YOU THINK IF YOU ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND?

                  now one can see the logic in prison gangs. what people really respect is cohesion and strength, not fairness. consistency perhaps, but not really fairness., fairness is rarely a real issue in social intercourse.

                  1. I made up my mind thatbanybody that says “go back to Africa” is racist. WHat else would you have me believe. I know nothing of your personal situation, you and I have had several back and forths agreeing on little with no suggestion that racism was your motivation.
                    The Supreme Court just allowed racist gerrymandering and redistricting to go into effect because they deemed it partisan in intent and not racist although what they did was dillute the impact of minority votes in a racist manner. Sorry, they turned their back on racism and made its perpetuation possible. All the good people that see racism and do nothing also make it possible. This blog provides a place for it to thrive. You welcome George, Squeeky and others who wore it as a badge of honor long before Steve Bannon gave permission and Estovir has thrown his hat in the ring as well. I choose not to say nothing. Maybe some of you one day will do the same.

                    1. well Enigma i have known a lot worse racists. I don’t want to name names, but people who are now and will stay incarcerated until they die. So it may be a matter of perspective.

                      I’m aware that race is a factor in social situations, just like other things are too. It may be a harmful factor for some people and it may help others. The situation may vary. But, I am never clear on where some people think it goes from being a factor into being “racism.”

                      In political and social matters, race matters, and so does nation, tribe, family; or religion, gender, class, and a multitude of other social differences.

                      I am not going to let it become the focus of any of my concerns. Race is a very big category and i am just one small humble person.

                      Africa is a good study I think in respect of this. Mostly black but people know of other racial groups like whites or arabs or Indians and east asians, all of whom are increasingly present in more and more places, or so I have read. But what is a black man in africa? Not of any great signficance like it is here. Perhaps as insignificant as being a white person in northern Europe. Or an “Asian” in East Asia. Race has little relevance to people in those places, usually national belonging or tribal affiliations are far more important.

                      For us in America, it persists in importance. I think everyone would be well served to admit that. What you do with that social fact is up to you.

                    2. If racism was purely social, it would be far less of a big deal. Racism is economics, it’s control, it’s power. It can determine how some people are allowed to live their life, in other cases whether. You’ll never have to see it from the other side.

                    3. Without looking I know who Reginald Denny is. Because the cases are so few and well publicized. Odds are great Mr. Kurtz won’t experience racism, although if he were an average high school student that didn’t get into an elite school he might think someone cheated him out of his rightful place.

                    4. Odds are great Mr. Kurtz won’t experience racism…

                      Well, you’ve gone from never to great odds he won’t with just one example. I guarantee you Mr. Denny thought the odds were great he wouldn’t either, until he did. Racism is a broad spectrum problem. Imagine what you can discover if you took off the blinders and got the full spectrum.

                    5. ha ha Enigma, wouldn’t you like to know. Enough to say I experienced black racism in fights where I was a minority of one against many., But I lived and learned. Other white people will learn too

                      Guess what. Black Americans have a chip on their shoulder that other nonwhite people generally don’t have. You have earned yourselves a poor reputation as chronic complainers and the world knows it. Do you get that? Probably you do, just don’t include that in your finger wagging schtick

                      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/27/china-and-india-have-a-huge-problem-with-racism-toward-black-people/

                      Here’s a crazy idea. A lot of racism towards blacks is based on valid factual generalizations. Use your imagination!

                    6. “Valid factual generalizations.” The term contradicts itself. Thise isn’t a case like the chicken and the egg where you don’t know which came first.

                    7. and yeah ha ha i went to elite university top 20 at least if not top 10 and those days in integrated public schools were unpleasant with having to fight black kids and all but i got past it. far as I know I never missed out due to AA but my scores were always top notch so not too much of a problem with that.

                      now, let’s study how to handle a perpetually difficult tribal other inside the nation which causes a certain amount of difficulty

                      https://forward.com/opinion/419901/so-much-for-never-again-why-the-world-ignores-the-potential-genocide-of/

                      let’s now get a good look at a tribal genocide in post-colonial Africa. somehow i find it hard to blame this one on white folks!

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide

                      the main lesson one needs to learn from any genocide in history is this:

                      DONT LET IT HAPPEN TO YOU

                      no, kids, don’t say that in school. it’s not the right answer on your final exams– but it’s the one that may keep you alive one day nonetheless

                    8. hey Enigma please explain to me “why you can’t keep a disco open more than three weeks?”

                      Chris Rock asks a lot of questions that maybe you can answer for us. I am wondering, is he making valid factual generalizations? Must be or else all these folks wouldn’t be laughing

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmP3OdZtreg

                      i guess that is racism and the legacy of colonization at work huh?

                    9. Kurtz is an obvious racist and i doubt he would dispute that.

                      Given the 400 years of persecution blacks have faced in America, it’s hard to understand why they don’t have larger chip on their shoulder. They even fight in our wars on the American side.

                      This board has a high percentage of racists and this is proven every time enigma shows up here – whatever the subject, the “conservatives” here get the discussion around to blacks and then attack him and them.

                      Tiring.

                    10. This board has a high percentage of racists and this is proven every time enigma shows up here –

                      Virtue signaling at it’s finest.

                      So let me see if I understand correctly. Conservatives prove they are racists when Enigma shows up. Of course if they were racists, they would not have to wait for him to make his presence known. What are the odds that the many conservatives are all racists instead of one person being a race husltler? After all, it’s not as though the blog archives don’t have evidence to prove my point.

                      And no, look it up yourself.

                    11. i already said you can call me a racist if you want to, I havent run away from that epithet for decades. I don’t confess it, I don’t run away from it. it’s just you talking and calling names. “it is you who have said so”

                      but i would dispute that i have been uncivil to Enigma, and anyways “anon1” is not the judge of that. are you? I’m not attacking him for anything. I just engaged in a conversation

                      but like Eric Holder’s false candor during the phony conversation about race, remember that one? what a joke. In such conversations, only the voices saying the right things are the ones which may be heard. other dissenting opinions are hate, attacks, etc etc etc. not defense, not difference of opinions, but attacks. that’s how you guys roll, its clear.

                      try this on for size. throw that free speech rule book out the window if you want. but if you do, don’t be surprised when your opinion is redefined as hate speech when you least expected it.

                      whatever the rules are, we can play under those rules. you throw some other rules out the window, we can do it that way too.

                      I think Conor McGregor proved that guys who can fight well under generous rule sets, can usually fight well under restrictive rule sets too. something to ponder.

                    12. Given the 400 years of persecution blacks have faced in America,

                      MBITRW, black Americans are the most affluent and extensively educated negroid population of any size in this world, with personal income levels in real terms which compare favorably to the average person in Spain or New Zealand. Their life expectancy at birth (> 75 years) wasn’t seen in the world’s healthiest countries until 1975. They also have all the privileges and immunities of American citizens. The two things which distort and disfigure their lives are excess exposure to street crime and school disorder (which isn’t a phenomenon the larger society imposes on them).

                    13. i tell you what, i have had some other “diversity” experiences which were actually pretty pleasant.

                      for example, i have been surrounded for miles in a big city place where I was one of the 1% white minority. and all the other people were asians. i stuck out like sore thumb. i was stared at, I was treated differently. with distrust and caution. some were friendly and some were not. overall i had a hard time interacting due to language differences. but i was physically not bothered, I met my needs ok, and I engaged socially with pleasure. most of all, i felt physically safer in a densely populated urban area, than i ever felt when i lived in chicago, not in bad neighborhoods or even good ones.

                      why, so safe, when I was one of a very small number of laowei sticking out like a white monkey? is that because they’re not racist? oh trust me they are plenty aware of race and they are very preferential of their own kind. but they are a law abiding and peaceful population of industrious and orderly folks. so there was no problem. just some social difficulties that were to be expected when i was on their turf, basically, not a problem for a guy like me who can accept the notion that I don’t always have to be treated “equally” like a perpetual chip on my shoulder against others.

                      see let’s just get real honest here. a lot of the stuff black people in america are complaining about when they whine about racism, is heat they bring down on themselves by allowing their own criminal element to run rampant, to create dangerous situations for their own communities and for others too.

                      I know, i Know: so racist of me to say so!!! My opinion can’t count, simply because I am white. Right? Who’s the real racist in that equation?

                    14. Kurtz maybe didn’t hear Chis Rock say: “ain’t one of you white mfer’s in this room would change places with me …..and I’m rich!” Pretty pathetic justification for his racism, using CR. He should listen to this one.

                      https://youtu.be/VJmvfbDdhFg?t=157

                    15. I think TIA’s probably got it better than whatever 19th century s…h…. his family came here from – I know i do – so that means he should STFU and quit bitching. We might send you back.

                    16. Kurtz nursing his petty racial grievances – yeah, us white people have been so good to blacks, why they be bad mouthing us? – with enigma by pulling the stereotypes is real progress on race relations.

                      Speaking of his Asian crowd experience, I’m a longtime fan of black music and with a friend have been in crowds of hundreds at places like the Apollo and other more nameless places in the south up into the 80’s, where we were the only white faces in the crowd. The only ones. We never had an incident of any kind, which is why we went back. If we went to the wrong part of town late, could we get mugged, held up, or worse? Sure. Being a predator isn’t a function of being black or we’d have been f…ed up every time we waded into a crowd to hear music, it’s a function of soceital dysfunction of one kind or another. Try a social order subject to several centuries of slavery, followed by cruel and ugly laws and terrorism, then separate but unequal public accomodations and economic isolation – affirmative action was only practiced by public and large private corporations, not small businesses which hire most of the people in America.

                      Anyone thinks that bleak and horrific 400 year history ends in a couple of generations and everything should be cool is crazy or stupid. Digging a trench and holding the grudge like kurtz is not gonna solve it. We’re going in the right direction, things are improving. It will take more time.

                      My retired wife took a part time job with a medical start up. The principle is a black man in his 40’s with a beautiful family who is both a physician and PHd in neurology who after establishing himself at one of the nations best medical schools relocated to another near our neck of the woods, bringing his entire team of researchers in his field with him. You think that happens 40 years ago? You think you fake it in that field? It’s the result of opportunity and is good for us all. Why would we want large parts of our population in handcuffs and chained to a tree? They’re Americans and their accomplishments are ours.

                    17. Olly , when the only identifiable black poster shows up here, a number of the identifiable right wing posters – you included – end up corralling him into a discussion of race and him into a position defending himself as a representative of American blacks no matter what the thread is about. If you can’t see this, it’s because you’re doing it.You want to defend your race everytime you post?

                      In this last event Estovir told him to go back to Africa, cited negative opinions of all American blacks, and denounced him – in full ironic mode – for hating America. You’re a smart guy. Are you ok with that?

                      Kurtz then told him why he doesn’t like black people, as if that was enigma’s problem and not his own, implying that whites – who have inserted ourselves into the affairs of humans all over the world and usually with the intent of enslaving or at least dominating them – had no baggage to defend or jettison.

                      TIA weighed in on how enigma should be thankful for the free ride his race got by being our slaves, as if the idea that your life is now improved from your abcestors should shut you up – if only for TIA.

                      No one here except enigma prairie rose, and me has objected to this ugly display. Does our mod ok out and out racial hatred on this board? If so, why is anyone ever banned?Do you ok it Olly?

                    18. You may or not be aware that the individual you characterize as the only identifiable black poster has a blog named Enigma In Black. His opening sentence on that blog to describe his focus is:

                      Enigma In Black is one man’s opinion about matters primarily involving politics, education, and race.

                      This individual doesn’t use an anonymous user name or even his own name. He specifically uses his blog name. It’s not that right wing posters are corralling him, but that he is corralling others into a discussion involving race.

                    19. enigma gets corralled into discussions of race because that’s what interests him and that’s the lens through which he looks at the world. If he wishes to discuss something else, there’s nothing stopping him. However, the only other thing that seems to interest him is the usual Democratic Party fantasy fare about Russian collusion, &c.

                    20. TIAs excuse for his ignorant declaration about American blacks is false. Enigma has appeared here to discuss – always in a restrained and respectful tone – all sorts of issues, but those like TIA immediately direct racial and racist comments toward him.

                      As to TIA’s comment on this subject, which is about the national debt, his response to whether those on the left used race was to complain about blacks complaining given their supposed good fortune to live 2+ centuries as slaves and then another as less than citizens.

                    21. Olly, read this thread. I just checked it. Enigma posted about the subject, with no mention of race. Estovir jumped in with Africa BS and it was off to the races with you and TIA and Kurtz trying to make him defend being black. That is SOP everytime he shows up. He doesn’t go there, you and the others do having nothing to do with the subject and then start in on your racial grievances. What he has a blog about is irrelevant.

                    22. He doesn’t go there, you and the others do having nothing to do with the subject and then start in on your racial grievances.

                      Yeah, that must be it. LOL! Enigma recalls (in the archives) in November 2017, where a contributor (CV Brown) posted racist comments. I emailed JT and he had the comment removed. Interestingly, I made mention of this to Enigma and he slammed me for thinking he needed anyone’s help. I still have a copy of the email with the comment. It was all scrubbed by Turley.

                      Anyway, go ahead and provide evidence to support your claim. Otherwise it’s just more virtue signaling blather from you that means absolutely nothing.

                    23. you and TIA and Kurtz trying to make him defend being black.

                      I’ve done nothing of the kind, not in this thread or in any other. I gather Brock’s people told you to just brazen it out.

                  2. TIAs excuse for his ignorant declaration about American blacks is false.

                    I made no ‘declaration about American blacks’ ignorant or otherwise.

                    Enigma has appeared here to discuss – always in a restrained and respectful tone – all sorts of issues,

                    Who am I going to believe, you or my own eyes?

                    but those like TIA immediately direct racial and racist comments toward him.

                    This gets to be a bore. Can’t you at least come up with a creative smear? Or did they tell you at your Correct-the-Record orientation to stick to the playbook at all times?

                    1. TIA said American Blacks should be thankful for their current situation and STFU about complaints. An absurd comment – his specialty – unless whites should do the same, and American blacks are not also responsible for building this country, and in their case at no pay, under the lash, with their families being split up and sold, or held as 2nd class citizens for 100 years after their slavery ended.

                    2. TIA frequently cries: “Correct-the-Record, Correct-the-Record”…

                      Blah, blah, blah.

                      Racism is a fact of life for many in this country, but TIA and his ilk will never get it.

                    3. TIA said American Blacks should be thankful for their current situation and STFU about complaints. An absurd comment

                      Not quite clear if the author of this particular lie is Diane or JanF.

                      Any adult learns to assess their situation and understand it against a backdrop of realistic alternatives.

                      And smart adults are able to differentiate actual problems from the issue of their own inner life.

                      Evidently we’re not to expect street-level blacks or black professionals or black politicians to do this, even though the vast majority of people in this country manage to do this.

                      All of which is an indication that the social ethic abroad in the Democratic Party is derived from arrested development. Might say something about the character of partisan Democrats.

                      and American blacks are not also responsible for building this country,

                      Something I neither stated nor implied. You lie like other people breathe.

                      and in their case at no pay, under the lash, with their families being split up and sold,

                      FTR, if I’m not mistaken contemporary historical scholarship has refuted the notion that it was routine to do this.

                      That aside, perhaps one person in ten might be able to give you a precis of what their great-great grandfathers did for a living, so treating slavery as aught but of academic interest is contrived.

              2. Ah, man, Estovir, really?!

                You are reinforcing their perspective that that comment is a completely racist comment. It is certainly anti-immigrant.

                It is a rude, unhelpful comment that actively undermines your ability to convince others that any conservative ideas are better.

                Enigma’s family line could probably be traced back here at least as long as some of mine (Colonial). Why should he go back anywhere? This is home. Since we all live together here, we might as well try to live together peaceably. That is going to require a hell of a lot better communication and humility from pretty much everyone!

                1. You are reinforcing their perspective that that comment is a completely racist comment. It is certainly anti-immigrant.

                  You are a fool for thinking “their” has any place in this discussion. “They” use ethnicity, immigrants and race as fodder for their political ideologies.
                  The Left doesn’t care a whit about Life. All they seek is Power. They have no moral standing in any arguments given their behaviors since LBJ, Woodward & Bernstein, George McGovern, Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, George Mitchell, Harry Reid, Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary and on and on and on. These people are frauds. They are not known for their impeccable character nor acts of charity or corporal words of mercy towards the downtrodden. They are known for destroying lives to get their political ideologies ahead.

                  I rarely have to tell immigrants, considering I’m one of them, “go back to your country if you don’t like America” because they love America. People like Engima do not. People like Ilhan Omar do not. Immigrants know how badly things are in our original countries, and though America has definitely been on the decline since the 1960s thanks to the Left, compared to all other countries, this nation is still the best option. I often say that immigrants are more proud to be in America than Americans.

                  As an immigrant it stings to know that Americans burn the American flag, US politicians (Democrats) cajole Americans to incite physical harm on others for supporting the US President, “Red Hen Restaurant” owner Stephanie Wilkinson advocating stalking, hunting of Americans, harassing and physically harming others as Antifa does, and Hollywood entertainers inciting “resist” ever since the Election results of 2016. Americans don’t realize how nations are toppled and considering I witnessed mine, I see the same thing taking place in an orchestrated, coordinated “resistance”.

                  Americans have historically ceded the discussion to the Left when they have played the race card but some of us aren’t fazed because we know what they are doing. The Left are masters of manipulating words and distorting facts. They lie because they are trained at doing so like Saul Alinsky showed his followers in “Rules for Radicals”. They seek power, communism, Marxism. They were silent during Obama’s ICE children cages but now they are vocal. If that doesn’t answer your question fully then you are not truly engaged. All the Left seek to do in America is destroy it and that started in the 1960s. They will stop at nothing until America is another Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, North Korea, and if Bernie or Kamala Harris or Elizabeth Warren win the Presidency, if NYT, WahPutz, CNN et al are allowed unchecked, America will be that much closer to falling.

                  I say, Resist the Resistance for they are frauds and they care not about America nor Americans. They are the true fascists

                  1. Estovir, don’t take this the wrong way, but maybe you should go back to where you came from. You’re not getting this America thing at all. We believe criticizing our government is a right and a responsibility and those you disagree with get their say too.

                    1. Anonymous1,
                      That is not fair. There is no reason for him to go anywhere either. Estovir is getting “this America thing” fine. You are in violent agreement that criticizing the government is appropriate and others get their say, too. He never said that was not the case.

                      He is right about ““They” use ethnicity, immigrants and race as fodder for their political ideologies.” Obama’s ICE detention centers were never splashed all over the news, but they sure are now that it is politically expedient.

                      Disagree with some element of Leftist ideology and one immediately gets branded with some epithet–ask James Damore, Jordan Peterson, Andy Ngo, etc.

                    2. Prairie, that you defend Estovir’s blatant racism and hate and then attack me over some BS about Obama’s ICE policy is ridiculous. We don’t agree and aren’t going to. If you’re so concerned with decorum, you should be all over Estovir’s attacks on enigma and American blacks which are not only repulsive, but not conducive to the dialogue of ideas you claim to be interested in.

                    3. Anonymous1,
                      “If you’re so concerned with decorum, you should be all over Estovir’s attacks on enigma”

                      I was. I did not defend that comment at all. It was out of line. I haven’t read this entire enormous thread to see what other obnoxiousness has been conjured up by heaven knows who, but I saw these bits and decided to say something.

                      “then attack me over some BS about Obama’s ICE policy is ridiculous.”

                      I did not attack you. Are you the wider MSM suddenly reporting on “Trump’s cages”, using pictures from President Obama’s administration?

                    4. “….Trump said of the stream of migrants attempting to enter the U.S. “But I ended separation. I inherited separation from President Obama.”

                      That isn’t true. While President Barack Obama’s administration detained migrant children who entered the U.S. alone, it didn’t have a policy to separate children from caregivers when they crossed the border together.

                      That practice emerged in 2018, under Trump, after his then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions issued a policy known as “zero tolerance” that called for all migrants who crossed the border outside official ports of entry to be arrested and detained.

                      Trump ended family separations with an executive order in July 2018 after bipartisan outrage among the public and lawmakers, though there have been periodic reports that the practice continues less systematically…”

                      https://time.com/5612868/trump-obama-family-separation/

                    5. Anonymous1,
                      Thank you for the links. It is late and I am tired and have an early morning headed my way. I will have to catch up reading tomorrow.

                  2. Estovir,
                    I agree with you on many elements of your concerns, particularly on the wider scale, high up aspects of the Left.

                    “They will stop at nothing until America is another Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, North Korea”

                    I do not think that is most people’s intention. They are not nefarious; they do not see that as the goal. Maybe the very higher ups want that, especially so they can more easily enforce Power, but I doubt that is the aim of most people.

                    I disagree that there is no place for “they” in the conversation. By ‘they’, I mean the left-leaning individuals on this blog. You are communicating with individuals, someones, who, if talked with instead of at, could change his or her mind about an issue. The more people who are able to consider other viewpoints fairly through open and reasonable discussion, are the very people who may decide to change their thinking and agree with you.

                    I, too, am extremely concerned about the direction the country is heading, the ideologically-driven Balkanization, the rationalizations for violence against anyone who does not agree with Leftist thought.

                    Yet, insulting people or treating them as part of the Leftist blob, instead of as individuals, will not win people to your perspective very readily at all.

                    1. Prairie, most domestic violence in the US is from the right not the left, up to and including murder.

                      “FBI Director Christopher Wray said Tuesday that the agency has made about 100 domestic terrorism-related arrests since October, and the majority were tied to white supremacy…”

                      https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/454338-fbis-wray-says-majority-of-domestic-terrorism-arrests-this-year

                      “…As of May 2019, the New America Foundation placed the number killed in terrorist attacks in the United States since 9/11 as follows: 104 killed in jihadist terrorist attacks, 87 killed in far-right attacks, 8 killed in black separatist/nationalist/supremacist attacks, and 8 killed in ideological misogyny/”incel” ideology attacks.[84] The politically conservative Daily Caller News Foundation using data from the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START), found 92% of all “ideologically motivated homicide incidents” committed in the United States from 2007 to 2016 were motivated by right-wing extremism or white supremacism.[85] According to the Government Accountability Office of the United States, 73% of violent extremist incidents that resulted in deaths since September 12, 2001 were caused by right-wing extremist groups.[86][87]

                      A 2019 report found that in 2018 50 people in the United States were killed in murders by domestic extremists (including both ideologically and non-ideologically motivated homicides). Of these killings, 78% were perpetrated by white supremacists, 16% by anti-government extremists, 4% by “incel” extremists, and 2% by domestic Islamist extremists.[88] Over the broader 2009 to 2018 time period, there were a total of 313 people in the United States killed by right-wing extremists (including both ideologically and non-ideologically motivated homicides), of which 76% were committed by white supremacists, 19% by anti-government extremists (including those affiliated with the militia, “sovereign citizen,” tax protester, and “Patriot” movements), 3% by “incel” extremists, 1% by anti-abortion extremists, and 1% by other right-wing extremists.[88]…”

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#United_States

                    2. Anonymous1,
                      I wrote: “the rationalizations for violence against anyone who does not agree with Leftist thought”

                      You responded with articles on domestic terrorism.

                      They are two very different things. I was not talking about domestic terrorism.

                      I was talking about things like hitting people with bike locks or milkshakes (laced with cement or not).

                      I was talking about Professor Thomas’ comments to ““don’t just interrupt a Senator’s meal, y’all. Put your whole damn fingers in their salads. Take their [appetizers] and distribute them to the other diners. Bring boxes and take their food home with you on the way out. They don’t deserve your civility.”

                      I was talking about people getting chased out of restaurants for wearing a MAGA hat.

                      Or getting their speaking engagements shut down and/or requiring extra security due to protests or Antifa. Or a protestor getting arrested and being found to have a garrote on her person.

                      Identity politics stinks on both sides.

                      At this time, simply disagreeing with Leftist perspectives makes people fear being hit with not just an ad hominem, but worse.

                2. I’m glad I went back and looked at all the comments on the topic instead of just those replies to me. I might have been left with the impression that no one called out Estovir on his racism when you, Prairie Rose and Anonymous 1 certainly did. I would say it isn’t just my perspective it’s a racist comment. It’s the truth.
                  I haven’t been much into genealogy and can’t trace any ancestors past a great-grandmother. Everyone to that point was born in the USA. Family lore says I have a bit of Cherokee Indian heritage but I have no more proof than Elizabeth Warren. It’s just something my family has said and I believe it to be true.

                  1. Prairie Rose and Anonymous 1 certainly did.

                    Since now you are changing metrics, you might want to know that Blacks in the Caribbean think Blacks in the USA are disgraceful. Take a visit to Miami, engage a Haitian, and tell them they are Black like you. You’ll be running faster than usual because Haitians and other Black Caribbeans have great disdain for Black Americans calling people like you true racists.

                    Its a pity blacks like you cant be appreciative of America like Blacks from Haiti, but then again you have had everything given to you unlike Black immigrants who were thankful to find a new home in America, work, learn English, embrace all the wonderful things America has to offer us immigrants and everything to our children that we never had in our home countries. Then there is you.

                    Keep voting Democrat. Your masters in the Democrat Party need their slaves keeping them in power

                    truth to power, and all that

                    1. Estovir, a lot of white people think Catholics are disgraceful and their immigration was resisted here in the 19th and early 20th centuries as a lowering of our moral standing..

                      It’s too bad that you can’t be appreciative of America and it’s citiznes, especially since so much of the labor that built it was black. This is their country and as an immigrant you should learn some manners or get out.

                  2. Enigma,
                    I think that comment, telling someone to go back where they came from, is very complicated. It is certainly rude and divisive and is a way to shut down conversation rather than encourage it to get to the bottom of things.

                    There is a lot of anger tangled up in the comment and the delivery. What does Estovir see that makes him angry and makes him think that you do not love America, too?

                    I am not trying to justify anything; I am trying to understand what underlies all the rancor. What you see as the reason(s) and what he sees as the reason(s) are not the same. The truth falls somewhere between.

                    As an immigrant, Estovir sees America, in some ways, differently from you and I who were born and raised here. What does he see that we are missing?

                    I found an interesting article, written by an immigrant from Sierra Leone. How does this factor in to some of the vitriol?

                    “Perhaps the greatest difference I have seen between African immigrants and African-Americans is how they react to adversity.

                    Most African immigrants to the United States came here for economic advancement. They do not have any political agenda. They are willing to take any job and do not blame the “system” when they fail in their endeavors.

                    Most African immigrants to the United States often live in mixed neighborhoods instead of black neighborhoods and they easily integrate. African immigrants know who they are. They are not easily offended when someone tries to put them down. They know where they come from and why they are here.

                    For African-Americans, there is often a tendency to blame slavery for most of the problems they face today. For instance, when African American students fail in school, some educators blame slavery and do not look for other factors.

                    However, the time has come for African Americans to realize that while racism still persists, the best thing they can do for their children is to teach them to take full responsibility for their actions. Fathers need to take care of their children and young women need to stay in school instead of having children.

                    It is only when black people, be they from Africa or America, unite to instill discipline and respect for each other that the chasm that has divided us will narrow. Then we can finally work together to remove poverty from our people both here in the United States and Africa. ”

                    https://www.theglobalist.com/african-americans-african-immigrants-differ/

                    Regarding the go back to where you’re from comment, I do not think that comment is necessarily racist. It is anti-immigrant, but immigrants can come from anywhere. Some of my family immigrated from Scandinavia as recently as the late 1800s; we still eat many Nordic foods at Christmas and have Nordic decorations. We still tell stories of my immigrant great-great grandparents (and yes, they were looked down upon by those who had settled in the area earlier).

                    This short post just scratches the surface of everything intertwined in that hard and hurtful comment. There are sub-texts of concerns and perspectives regarding governance, immigration, the social contract, naturalization, and other issues we as a nation and individuals have not sufficiently sorted out.

                    1. Prairie Rose, why are you asking enigma to explain Estovir’s disgusting racist attacks on him and then asking him to explain criticisms of American blacks? Do you understand that many can and have had negative things to say about whites? Do you want to take this opportunity to defend your race? If not, why should he?

                    2. Anonymous1,
                      I am not asking Enigma to “explain Estovir’s disgusting racist attacks on him and then asking him to explain criticisms of American blacks?”

                      It is not possible for Enigma to explain why Estovir said what he did; he is not Estovir and does not have Estovir’s perspective. He can try to imagine, honestly, what Estovir’s POV is, but to really figure that out, he’d have to ask Estovir why he said that and then to ask multi-faceted questions.

                      Nor am I asking him to explain criticisms of American blacks. What has he to justify? He is one person with his own perspective. He does not in any way speak for “American blacks”. I presented an alternative perspective that peripherally aligned with part of Estovir’s concerns and I wanted to know what Enigma thinks of it. He is a thoughtful person.

                      If the underlying issues surrounding and intertwined in the comments can be sorted out, then the mess can, hopefully, have a chance of being defused. A good airing and some sunshine does wonders.

                      “Do you understand that many can and have had negative things to say about whites?”

                      Of course, and sometimes for good reason.

                      “Do you want to take this opportunity to defend your race? If not, why should he?”

                      Why do you use the word ‘defend’? Why does it have to be a defense? All peoples have good to them as well as bad. The bad should be made better and the good not only preserved but enhanced. To sort out the whys of both and figuring out how to make improvements requires asking good questions.

                      I am interested in what Enigma thinks and what and how people think in general. If Enigma would like to discuss these points, I would enjoy it. We have had good discussions on difficult topics in the past.

                    3. So Prairie, what do you think of the viewpoint of many other of the world’s people – based on undeniable facts – that white people have ravished their countries and peoples, in many cases enslaving, murdering, and torturing them, and are uniquely guilty of racist pretense justifying this behavior. Do you think white people are doing enough to mitigate those undeniable past actions and should the other people of the world keep us on a racism watch or just forgive and forget?

                    4. Anonymous1,
                      “So Prairie, what do you think of the viewpoint of many other of the world’s people – based on undeniable facts – that white people have ravished their countries and peoples, in many cases enslaving, murdering, and torturing them”

                      That is an overly broad question, spanning the entire world and all time.

                      What country do you think has been ravished, and by what other country? Britain caused terrible problems in China with opium, but Germany did not.

                      Why hold an entire race of people culpable? That is racist.

                      What of the Mongols ravishing other countries? Or the Egyptians? Or the Assyrians? Or the Sea People? Or the Persians? Or the Ottoman Turks? Or the Hutus and the Tutsis?

                      Groups have been doing what you say for time immemorial. It needs to stop, but it especially will not if the scourge of identity politics continues to be played.

                      Playing identity politics is only going to lead to resentment and all the nastiness that follows.

                      Stop what bad is happening and do not dwell or wallow in self-pity. Acknowledge something bad happened, accept it as part of history and aim to succeed in spite of it. Not just as countries or ‘groups’ but as individuals. The strength of character of every individual builds that of the country.

                      Doing otherwise is following in the footsteps of Cain.

                    5. You might imagine that I see racism and prejudice everywhere I look. The truth is, except when it comes to policy and laws with statistical documentation, I rarely know. I don’t assume someone/something to be racist, just wait for further data to bring clarity. There are some situations that are crystal clear. The difference I suspect between you and I is that you seem always willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
                      In an earlier statement you chastized Estovir for basically feeding into my perception of racism when he told me to go back to Africa. In the post I’m responding to, you rephrased it to “go back where you’re from.” That isn’t what he said or meant.
                      Your post is full of assumptions about various races/ethnicities which you no doubt believe, but my experience says you are wrong.
                      You attach some great value to slavery as an experience which black people can’t seem to get past. That we use as an excuse for our own failings. We should move on and ignore whatever remnants of racism still exist which will no doubt then fade away. Your slavery theory ignores the constant systemic racism perpetrated until the present day. After slavery came the Black Codes, after that came Jim Crow, afterwards redlining, voter suppression and always lynchings. When black people formed communities and prospered like in the Greenwood district of Tulsa, they were literally bombed from the air by the National Guard. The black population of Ocoee, FL was wiped out when 2 men tried to vote. The Supreme Court allowed what they deemed “Partisan Gerrymandering” outside their purview when clearly is was an attempt to diminish black and Hispanic voting strength, a successful one at that in 2019.
                      You see Donald Trump make statements that you wish he would have worded differently. He bans Muslims, cages Hispanics, calls black nations “shithole countries.” He got his start with his father when he discriminated against minorities, He had his managers put “C” for colored on rental applications to refuse to rent to them. He led (though didn’t start) the birther movement, yet I suspect you can’t see his racism, you excuse it away.
                      I believe you are well intended, yet cannot or will not see what is perfectly clear. With Estovir you knew it sounded bad, in more cases that you can acknowledge, it actually is bad, and the solution isn’t to ignore it and wait for it to go away.

                    6. Enigma,
                      “You might imagine that I see racism and prejudice everywhere I look.”

                      I do not. I try not to unfairly assume things about people.

                      “The difference I suspect between you and I is that you seem always willing to give the benefit of the doubt.”

                      Yes, I do have a tendency to do so, perhaps to a fault.

                      “In an earlier statement you chastized Estovir for basically feeding into my perception of racism when he told me to go back to Africa.”

                      I did not mean you in particular, but anyone who views Trump’s comment to ‘go back’ as automatically racist. It is anti-immigrant, but I do not think it is necessarily racist. That Estovir told you to go back to Africa was completely out of line. I should not have rephrased it. He dug too deep into your heritage, which is cruel and foolish. It was no way to disagree with someone.

                      “Your post is full of assumptions about various races/ethnicities which you no doubt believe, but my experience says you are wrong. You attach some great value to slavery as an experience which black people can’t seem to get past. That we use as an excuse for our own failings.”

                      What are you talking about? I included an excerpt from an essay written by an immigrant from Sierra Leone. Is that to what you refer? I wanted to know what you thought of this man’s perceptions, since they aligned peripherally with something Estovir said. Including it in my post does not equal endorsement. I was curious about what you thought about it: to what degree is there truth or error in this African immigrant’s perspective of African-Americans? What would make him have these perspectives, do you think?

                      We do disagree regarding the degree to which systemic racism exists and/or affects people. The problems affecting Blacks is far more multi-faceted than ‘systemic racism’.

                      “the solution isn’t to ignore it and wait for it to go away.”

                      You are right. Which is why I said something.

                    7. It’s like the more Enigma talks about Trump,. the more sure I am I like the guy.

                      He’s on our side; isnt that the most important thing in a leader?

                      The problem is often just defining who “we” are when the pronoun is used

                    8. Mr. Kurtz,
                      “He’s on our side; isnt that the most important thing in a leader?

                      The problem is often just defining who “we” are when the pronoun is used”

                      I do not think that “he’s on our side” is the most important thing in a leader, especially an American leader.

                      We have a set of ideals, a Bill of Rights, and the Constitution. This is what leaders ought to deeply consider when making decisions, as well as using accumulated wisdom. As there is a balance of powers, there should be a balance in governance. The leader should see the forest and the trees, balancing between the needs of the individual regarding freedom and self-efficacy and that of the wider community so as to promote the right degree of stability and advancement for as wide a swath of people as possible. A balance of the best interests of the majority and the minority. A leader should have an eye for being as fair as possible.

                      Who is the ‘we’? We the People of these United States. Yes there are D’s and R’s and L’s but we are all in this game together for the well-being of the United States as a whole.

                      That is why gerrymandering is so detrimental. The representatives start to think it is all about ‘their’ team, rather than a cross-section of diverse perspectives. Leaders and representatives should represent all those in their district, state, or the country as a whole, not just those on their ‘team’.

                      That is going to take a great deal more listening, learning, thoughtfulness, openness to other perspectives, and humility than what I see in too much of our leadership at present.

            1. that’s money well spent. trust me, without the American military, the ability of the US to export its debt and finance stuff goes up in smoke fast.

              then the currency would devalue and we would all be screwed.

                1. they love parades man, it’s an ancient tradition. show of force and pride. people dig it. i think it’s swell. gotta love a parade. Rocketman puts on one hell of a parade!

                  1. Estovir says

                    “You are a fool for thinking “their” has any place in this discussion. “They” use ethnicity, immigrants and race as fodder for their political ideologies.
                    The Left doesn’t care a whit about Life. All they seek is Power. ….They are known for destroying lives to get their political ideologies ahead.”

                    You are almost there.

                    You are right that they only seek power.

                    So understand, they will throw ideology under the bus when it suits them too.

                    It’s never really about ideology with them, that’s just a tool to whip up volunteers and the votes that volunteers can deliver them.

                    Which is not about serving the voters it is about fleecing some for the benefit of others. That’s it. For the politicians, it’s about their place in their particular network and spoils system. That’s it. They are not doctrinaire in the slightest bit. It is purely a spoils system at work from top to bottom.

                    That is deeply ingrained in America as its own sort of ideology and raison d’etre. So they are not really that far from the norm.

                    This came about long before “The Left” or its antecedent Nietzsche transvaluated the will to power. As he observed, will to power has always been in play.

                    Trump, like Ross Perot before him, scares the bejeezus out of all of them, because he is so far above them in financial terms, that spoils are not a thing for him. he is looking for other sorts of spoils to satisfy his massive ego. Spoils they can’t relate to, but which Trump is of a peculiar piece with the man on the street. That is why they consider him a boor, crass, etc., They can’t relate to regular folks who value trite things like patriotism!

                    He has, as Kipling said, “the common touch.”
                    & They deeply fear what they can’t understand.

          1. Maybe Estovir can counter with a better source, though his comments indicate he doesn’t understand the issue,

            The presidential candidates do not spend taxpayers money.
            The House does have the ability to pass legislation involving spending, but absent the Senate’s passage and the president’s signature, the legislation has no authority.

            Estovir’s posts indicate he’s the one who hates America while I see nothing from enigma which warrants that description.

    2. Enigma,
      “I won’t be here when it blows up!”

      This has been an issue for decades, yet no one is willing to slow the rate of increase in our debt. People fuss when the rate of increase is threatened with being cut.

      We ought to look at ourselves when he says that. How many voters secretly think that? If we all looked in our souls, how many of us would actually try to get our representatives to deal with the debt, to really decrease the cost of living as Americans? How many of us want to deal with the give and take and difficult work of being fiscally responsible, versus those who just want to go one being the prodigal son living extravagantly, before he was finally forced to face the reality of his excesses?

      Criticizing Trump? We ought to criticize ourselves.

      1. Criticizing Trump? We ought to criticize ourselves.

        That’s right, PR. The 3-legged stool of self-governance is civics literacy, civic action and self-reliance. Unfortunately we as a society are civically ignorant, apathetic and dependent on government. We have become addicted to whatever the government is selling and government is not about to provide us the intervention we need.

      2. You have a point that deficit spending has long been an issue. I’m glad you didn’t simply point the finger at Democrats as Republicans have debatably done more to blow the budget. We ought to blame a lot of people, but never have we had a President who openly doesn’t give a shit, and a Republican Congress his first two years that were too cowered to stand up and ever say no. The numbers are coming in from his wonderful tax cut and the winners and losers are clear with the biggest loser being the deficit (and poor and middle-class Americans). Mitch McConnell blames it on entitlements and won’t acknowledge the role of the tax cut. The deficit is now 22 Trillion with the hugest jumps ever under Trump. So yes, critize Trump, along with everyone else but certainly Trump. “I love debt. I’m the king of debt.” And yes, he “won’t be here when it blows up.”

        1. Enigma,
          That’s part of the reason I’m an Independent. Republicans aren’t particularly fiscally responsible for all their talk. I know I ought to pick a party and work from within to improve it, but I am stretched too thin as it is with 4 kids activities and schooling.

          I am not particularly concerned with what Trump says in that regard. He is not in charge of the budget–our elected representatives are. Trump can suggest a budget, but no one has to use it.

          Our Democrat and Republican representatives could work together to present a balanced, fiscally responsible budget. It then needs to pass both houses and Trump can either sign it or veto it, at which point our representatives either reconnoiter the budget or aim for 2/3 majority to override him. If I have forgotten details for how passing a budget works, please correct me.

          1. it’s a spoils system like every other government budget.

            they don’t like trump because he’s identifying where our side can get paid and slicing back on their side.

            of course they hate him

            we all get stuck with the bill in the end; meanwhile we better get paid before the jig is up. that may sound irresponsible but it’s the only rational way to proceed in politics.

            1. Mr. Kurtz,
              “it’s the only rational way to proceed in politics.”

              That sounds like a false choice to me. I do not see why that is the only rational way to proceed in politics.

              Addressing common goals while also being fiscally responsible is a difficult but possible avenue. Why should both ‘sides’ gorge themselves at the trough of public money or political “points”? Too divisive and not in anyone’s long-term interest.

              1. In theory you are right.

                In practice when you have a nonprofit style budget everybody gobbles up their share as much and fast as they can.

                leadership is key but it does not arise from a vacuum. the more cynical the general population, the more cynical the leadership will be

                Democrats have long been an incredibly cynical bunch. They’re the real experts in cynicism

                1. Mr. Kurtz,
                  I do not know much about finance or running businesses or nonprofits. How is a nonprofit style budget different from my home budget?

                  Is the only style of budget our government can have is a nonprofit one?

                  Why would that cause people to gobble up their share?

      3. Prairie, Trump can spend more in 5 minutes than you and I and all Americans can save in a year, and he did that with the tax cut. It is projected to add $1 trillion to the debt, or about $3,000 for every American. He was not elected by the people but by a stupid winner take all electoral college and so has no mandate for that or anything else he ran on.

        1. Anonymous1,
          Trump did not sign an executive order for that tax cut. He signed a bill that passed both the House and the Senate.

          This was an interesting article on the subject:

          https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/14/business/economy/income-tax-cut.html

          Can the tax cut allow businesses to expand/grow more easily, allowing more people to be hired, and more money to be made (and subsequently taxed)?

          I’m not sold that this is the case, but most of what I’ve heard about it is political or ideological rather than numbers and logic.

          I, too, am concerned about the monetary system being ‘more equal for some animals’, so to speak. This was happening badly under Obama, too, so I do not see it as a D vs R issue, but more as an oligarch vs the plebs issue. How can more people be able to make more wealth overall? Is the way forward open and fair to all who wish to engage?

          We can have a discussion on the Electoral College, but it is off-topic.

      4. The ratio of federal debt to domestic product has seen periods of increase and decline for 90 years. Sample years are as follows:

        1960: 0.53
        1970: 0.35
        1975: 0.31
        1982: 0.34
        1991: 0.60
        2001: 0.55
        2007: 0.62
        2009: 0.82
        2012: 0.99
        2018: 1.05

        The point of origin for our current problem is 2001. In part it’s poorly constructed institutions, which allow obstructive veto groups a great deal of leverage. In large measure, though, it’s because our politicians stink. A partial exception in this regard would be the Tea Party wing of the Republican Party, but they’re no where near populous to have a chance to influence spending trajectories (and such people tend to be pig-headed about tax increases).

  1. Fiscal conservatism is a critical need right now.

    When debt spirals out of control, it can reach a point where austerity measures are needed, or else there is collapse. A public used to seemingly limitless spending tends to protest austerity measures. Eating Mac N Cheese and Ramen after maxing out credit cards is no fun.

    The Democrat party platform seems to amount to little more than bashing Trump and dangling money. At some point, they are going to run out of taxpayer money. Republicans have been ineffective at reining in the debt. Compromise tends to be spending more and more.

    1. Funny stuff Karen.

      Your party has no platform other than propping up Trump, and his is bashing Democrats and trolling the previous president. As to the GOP “not reining in the debt”, how about the only major “accomplishment” of this administration added $1 trillion to it. Otherwise, NOTHING!

      Democrats actually have a platform and issues – many passed in the House like raising the minimum wage – and our previous president, now ranked 12th by historians completed serious work in domestic and foreign policy, all of which your leader spends his time trying to undo while he has not built any wall, improved our immigration problems, made any deals. or provided the promised excellent health care.

      What a joke.

      1. Anonymous1,
        If you are actually interested in figuring out said problems, this is not the way to go about it.

        Karen was critical of both parties. What does she mean by ‘Democrats dangling money’? In what way does she see Republicans messing up? What would she like to see happen to reduce the deficit?

        What about you? What would you like to see happen? What should be cut?

        There are pro/con arguments regarding the minimum wage. What are they and how do such arguments fit into stimulating the economy and job availability?

        The President passed the prison reform bill, which I believe includes help for getting inmates educated and acquiring job-skills. To what degree did it increase the budget?

        1. Prairie, you can respond to Karen if you don;t like mine. We disagree on her meaning and what would constitute a proper response..

          As to the minimum wage, I offered that as an example of work being done in the House which Karen claims is doing nothing but fighting Trump. The evidence is opposite of that:

          https://www.vox.com/2019/5/24/18637163/trump-pelosi-democrats-bills-congress

          as the Senate is doing absolutely nothing and Trump has not led on any major legislation – or signed any – since the horrible tax cut. IN fact, Trump seems to spend all his time tweeting insults fighting reality TV show style battles with other personalities.

          1. Anonymous1,
            Karen is certainly welcome to answer the questions I posed.

            I am not clear in what way we disagree.

            What do you think is her meaning of dangling money? To what do you think she is referring?

            “what would constitute a proper response..”

            By your response, what were you trying to achieve?

            1. PR, no offense, but your wasting both our times. Analyzing Karen’s posts is not something I spend much time on, though I do find it useful to correct her many mistatements in the hopes others won’t be misguided.

              1. Anonymous1,
                No offense taken.

                I wasn’t particularly trying to analyze her posts. I wanted to better understand your perspectives and thoughts.

                If you’d rather not continue, that’s fine. Clarity over agreement.

    2. Karen, you wouldn’t have the first clue what the Democratic party platform is because you watch Hannity and Faux News. What about Democrats’ positions on health care, the environment and education? Do you have any idea, or has someone at Faux News summarized Democrats’ substantive position in the next election as Trump bashing, so you’re accepting this as fact?

      You seem to think that pointing out the truth about Trump is “bashing” him. That’s because you have Trump Derangement Syndrome, and are immune to his endless lying. Most-recently, lies about things said by “the Squad”. The Republicans know that claiming that these women are anti-Semitic and anti-American sells well with the TDS sufferers, because they believe anything Trump, Tucker, Rush and Hannity say. The allegation that Tlaib called America “garbage” is a bald-faced lie, just like the claim that Omar bashed Israel. Being black and Muslim, Omar is an especially-rich source of racist and islamophobic hatred–a two-fer. But, you’re a disciple, so you believe Trump and Miller when they lie about what these women have said.

      You’re also willing to overlook bragging about assaulting women, Trump’s relationship with Epstein, dalliances with porn stars and nude models and abuse of migrants, especially young children, Yet, lover of life that you are, because you demonstrate outside abortion clinics to save unborn babies, you aren’t bothered by young children being taken away from their parents to punish them for seeking asylum, and holding them in unsanitary and undignified conditions.

  2. And now some good, happy news for a joyous occasion.
    🇺🇸

    Donald Trump President Shows Up and Kisses Bride … At MAGA Wedding

    Donald Trump made a surprise appearance at a wedding that had a theme — Make America Great Again.

    The wedding went down Saturday night at Trump National Golf Club Bedminster in Bedminster, New Jersey.

    There was no doubt about it … there were chants “USA, USA, USA,” and “Trump, Trump, Trump.”

    You see the President kiss the bride and wave hello to the crowd that is cheering him on. At various points during the evening, various people from the wedding party wore “MAGA” hats and even posed with Trump.

    We’re told the bride and groom — PJ Mongelli and Nicole Marie — are huge Trump fans. His Facebook is laced with Trump support, including a pic of him with the President.

    The couple got engaged in 2017 at the Trump National Golf Club Bedminster.

    Nicole Marie actually sent Trump multiple invites to the wedding, including a booklet that showcased encounters that she had with him, including rallies and Trump parties.

    There were flags in the reception hall that said, “Trump 2020.”

    https://www.tmz.com/2019/07/21/donald-trump-maga-wedding-new-jersey/

    1. That was kind of him to make an appearance. It is moving to see politicians, celebrities, and other famous people acknowledge their fans in some meaningful way.

  3. There are lies; damned lies and then there are statistics.
    Mark Twain ( among others )

    What were the economic, financial statistics before the so-called “Great Recession.”

    You, individually and as a Country ) are, and only are, what you produce.

    The U. S. economy was once upon a time the largest manufacturer in the world, as it was once upon a time the bread basket of the world.

    Neither claim can be supported empirically.

    Since my birth in 1950 to the present, the U. S. has gone from the largest creditor nation to the largest debtor nation.

    Since so-called “Great Recession,” the most conservative estimate is that is approximately 15 trillion dollars of liquidity has been “injected” into in the U. S. Financial system ( which is to say in the world, i.e., economies using or based on U. S. Federal Treasury Notes; fiat currency ). Some estimates forecast as much as and more than 70 trillion in liquidity, which does not take into account Warren Buffett’s “weapons of mass financial destruction,” financial derivatives … both monetary based and synthetic.

    From the “Vietnam Conflict” to the so-called “Humanitarian Intervention ( War! ) in Libya,” the U. S. has incurred an estimated debt of 6, 7, or 8 trillion dollars.

    This debt has enriched the Military Industrial Surveillance Security State financially, but also impoverished the Country’s Constitution, The Rule Of Law, Citizens and financial well being.

    Three (3) times during my life I have sworn to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution from all enmities foreign and domestic.

    I am dedicated the the principles, values and ideals expressed in the Constitution.

    If one were a serious, sober and sensible citizen, I suggest, one would need to ask:
    Are the enemies of the United States foreign or domestic?

    “Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations—entangling alliances with none.” 

    Thomas Jefferson
    Third president of the United States from 1801 to 1809
    [ sometimes incorrectly attributed to George Washington ]

    dennis hanna

  4. The US ranks 35th in the nations of the world when debt compared to GDP. We’re better than the UK, France, Japan, the EU, Canada, Spain, Italy and Portugal to name just a few Western nations. Our economy is the world’s strongest and we are a net exporter of oil which runs the world. I like our chances.

    1. We are definitely better off for many reasons. The risks to other nations is far greater than what we face, but the economic set back could be large and big set-backs lead to big wars.

    2. Mespo,
      Japan’s debt-to-GDP ratio is about twice that of America’s. Even considering that they do have a higher rate of savings, that ratio is still astounding for a major, developed economy.
      I’m not sure about Canada and the UK and the EU…..I don’t remember their debt/ GDP being all that high, but I’ll have to get up to date on where they’re at.
      A massive government debtload is traditionally thought to result in both higher inflation and higher interest rates; we’ve been running up the tab for years, and have seen neither.
      If there is “a breaking point/ a point of no return” , no one knows where that is. I think in the long term there will be something of a slow suffication of our economy if we continue piling on debt like we have, but given that we’ve gotten away with the debt binge for so long, very few in or out of Washington DC are really paying attention to it as a political/ campaign issue.

      1. http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-national-debt/
        Mespo,
        This shows the U.S. debt/ GDP ratio to be somewhat higher than the UK, Canada, or France.
        One method of calculating the U.S. federal debt ( which I think JT used in the column) excludes money owed to the Social Security Trust Fund by the Treasury.
        Unless the U.S. Treasury plans to default on the c.3? Trillion it owes the SS Fund, I think it’s more realistic to include those $ Trillions as part of our debt.
        I think that puts us at about $ 22 Trillion in total federal debt, and with debt at c. 105% of GDP.

        1. Tom:
          My figures are from 2017 and I’m sure our ratio has risen but the point remains it’s not debt that crushes nations but flagging GDP. Productivity always trumps (no pun) debt and since most of it is owed to ourselves even doubly so.

          1. Mespo,
            That was the “way out” of the staggering debt built up during WWII.
            The nominal size of the debt was not decreased, but between a generation oo so of healthy GDP growth and “mostly balanced”, the debt/ GDP ratio dropped from over 100% to a low of about 45%? by the late 1970s.
            It doesn’t seem likely that we’ll get back to those healthy GDP growth rates of the 1950s and 1960s.
            That’s one problem. The other is that we’re stacking on very large annual deficits every year, rather than the fairly balanced budgets in the post-WWII generation.
            Unless we somehow miraculously get to a 4 %or 5 % GDP growth rate over an extended period, we can’t grow our way out of this.

              1. Men persist.

                Women replace the men who persist…or not.

                America must repatriate its wealth and enterprise providing jobs for its men allowing them to support their families – their wives and many multiple actual American children.

                The American fertility rate is in a “death spiral.” There are more American deaths than births. The population is imported, which must be reversed, and there won’t be an American left in America in 100 years.

                There is no future in a world with only 750 million American/UK/Australian/Canadian/Europeans vs. 6.25 billion in foreign countries.

            1. There’s a simple way out of our problem, which is to balance the budget over the course of a business cycle. The state governments manage it. Congress will not do this because they Just. Don’t. Feel. Like. It. Recall that the federal budge was balanced by the end of 1947, the enormous wartime deficits notwithstanding. The adults left the room around about 1961.

              I’d point out that nominal gross domestic product has doubled since the end of the tech bubble in 2000. The last 19 years have been a fairly somnambulant period economically in re growth in real per capita income, but it’s still been enough that if we had made it a point to set the permissible federal debt at a nominal set point in 2000, its contextual significance would have been reduced by half. We could have accomplished it if we didn’t have such feckless politicians.

          2. Most but not all. In a troubling development, China is decreasing their investments in US business.

            “WASHINGTON — Growing distrust between the United States and China has slowed the once steady flow of Chinese cash into America, with Chinese investment plummeting by nearly 90 percent since President Trump took office.

            The falloff, which is being felt broadly across the economy, stems from tougher regulatory scrutiny in the United States and a less hospitable climate toward Chinese investment, as well Beijing’s tightened limits on foreign spending. It is affecting a range of industries including Silicon Valley start-ups, the Manhattan real estate market and state governments that spent years wooing Chinese investment, underscoring how the world’s two largest economies are beginning to decouple after years of increasing integration.

            “The fact that the foreign direct investment has fallen so sharply is symbolic of how badly the economic relationship between the United States and China has deteriorated,” said Eswar Prasad, former head of the International Monetary Fund’s China division. “The U.S. doesn’t trust the Chinese, and China doesn’t trust the U.S.”

            For years, Chinese investment into the United States had been accelerating, with money pouring into autos, tech, energy and agriculture and fueling new jobs in Michigan, South Carolina, Missouri, Texas and other states. As China’s economy boomed, state and local governments along with American companies looked to snap up some of those Chinese funds….”

            https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/21/us/politics/china-investment-trade-war.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

            1. ah, but that is official money. the underground money that’s coming into the US from China is huge. they are buying up tons of houses and starting businesses and setting up private networks like crazy. this has not abated one whit. it’s accelerated if anything. capital flight from china is a problem and their crazy law that chinese can only expatriate 50 K yuan a year is ignored via certain methods.

              that money is pouring, pouring into the US and investing in places all over including the heartland. but take a look at LA, Seattle, Chicago, and New York, from the ground level in certain neighborhoods, it’s truly amazing

              academic economists who are reliant on official statistics and above ground money can’t measure these things

              I tell you, the smart money always hedges its bets.

          3. “Productivity always trumps (no pun) debt…”

            “…it’s not debt that crushes nations but flagging GDP.”
            ///

            Flagging GDP happens to all nations on a regular basis. The only nations that need fear flagging GDP are overly indebted ones.

            Productivity didn’t trump debt in 2008. The last financial crisis was all about debt trumping productivity. The solution was more debt. The Fed and Treasury committed roughly 24 trillion of our tax-payer dollars to temporarily save the system while making the problem bigger. Our next crisis will once again be about debt, not productivity.

      2. The US is in a historically exceptional situation with regard to its ability to finance huge debt and keep other nations buying it, even our adversaries

        we should all count ourselves incredibly lucky on this account.

        as they say however:

        the trend is your friend, that is, until it ends.

        1. The US is in a historically exceptional situation with regard to its ability to finance huge debt and keep other nations buying it, even our adversaries

          Uh huh.

          Our current account deficit in the balance of payments has bounced around 2.2% of GDP for the last 35 years. Australia’s has bounced around 4% of their GDP. I doubt people are quaking in their boots at the Australian military.

          1. Australia’s solid defensive position is strong due in part to its close strategic alliance with American military., So i demur to that point.

      1. Yes, that’s true, for people who don’t know the difference between a private person and/or industry declaring bankruptcy and starting over vs. a sovereign nation. Lookup “nuclear winter.” It’s not very nice. War is a real threat when nation A stops paying its legal debts, and nations B, C, and D are debt holders, and all relevant nations are nuclear armed.

        War is not a threat when individuals and/or their companies declare bankruptcy.

        Though I do get your drift, and Trump does have a penchant for leaving people holding the bag, so to speak.

  5. The last time the US completely paid off the national debt was in 1840. It was the result of decades of balanced budgets under Presidents James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson.

    In the 179 years since 1840 (counting the 2018 budget), the US has run a deficit 109 times and a surplus or balanced budget just 70 times, amounting to a cumulative net deficit of $14.2 trillion. All of the surpluses combined in the last 179 years amount to $580 billion, less than the deficit in 2017 alone ($665 billion).
    Since the national debt was last eliminated in 1840, the US has paid a cumulative $7.8 trillion of interest on the national debt. Simple arithmetic reveals that 55% the $14.2 trillion in deficit spending since 1840 has, in effect, gone towards interest on the national debt. The result is that despite running ‘only’ $14.2 trillion in deficits over that last 179 years, and despite having already repaid essentially all debt issued more than 30 years ago, the national debt today is $21.4 trillion. The difference between the cumulative deficit and the national debt, $7.2 trillion, represents the cumulative interest the US has paid to fund its deficits minus its modest surpluses. As a result, a full 36% of today’s national debt is, in effect, the interest paid on past debt. Only 45% of the national debt went to spending on actual programs. The rest went to servicing the national debt itself and to rolling the debt over with new debt. It also means that the government has been rolling over the majority of the national debt going all the way back to 1840. In a sense, a portion of the money the government borrowed in 1841 is still being paid for today via rolling the debt forward.

    Data Source: USGovernmentdebt.us
    The last time the national debt decreased on a yearly basis was in 2000 when it fell from $5.7 to $5.6 trillion dollars. Since 2000, the US national debt has nearly quadrupled to $21.2 trillion and the US has spent a cumulative $4.1 trillion dollars on interest expenses, more than during all previous American history combined.
    Yet, because so much of the recent growth in the national debt has taken place since the 2008 Financial Crisis, and has been borrowed at historically low interest rates, taxpayers have been shielded from much of its cost. However, if the federal government continues to borrow at the same rate or higher, as it is planning to do, there is a good chance that future borrowing will come at significantly higher interest rates. Consider that the government already spends more servicing the national debt than the combined amount spent on food assistance for the poor plus the departments of: Homeland Security, Housing and Human Development, Energy, Justice, the State Department, NASA, Agriculture, Transportation, the Interior, and the EPA. If debt levels and interest rates rise, even more government spending will be diverted from real programs towards servicing the national debt. It is a total waste of taxpayer money.

    Now is the time to balance the federal budget. The economy is expanding, the labor market is relatively strong, the need for large fiscal stimulus is low, and borrowing may get much more expensive in the near future. In the long run, not doing so is simply a massive waste of taxpayer money.

    [ data based on July 19, 2018* ]

    *Today the Federal Debt is about $22,025,467,877,267.26.
    The amount is the gross outstanding debt issued by the United States Department of the Treasury since 1790 and reported here.
    But, it doesn’t include state and local debt.
    And, it doesn’t include so-called “agency debt.”
    And, it doesn’t include the so-called unfunded liabilities of entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare.
    Federal Debt per person is about $67,501.

    [ as of June 27, 2019 ]

    From:
    55% of the national debt is accumlated interest:
    https://thesoundingline.com/taps-coogan-55-of-the-us-national-debt-is-the-result-of-repaying-debt-with-more-debt/

    dennis hanna

  6. Forcibly impose confiscatory taxation and redistribute wealth. When liberals in the top 2% of income stop complaining about how hard they have it making ends meet I’ll know we are getting close to enough taxation.

    1. Meanwhile, as the economy contracts from all that confiscatory taxation eating capital needed for business expansion, jobs will evaporate, loans for business, education and consumer purchases will become dearer (unless the Fed continues making debt unjustifiably cheap, which caused the 2008-9 crash, the housing market will implode, along with a range of asset values. Another Great Recession would be the least of our worries, as nations caught up in the next American meltdown destabilize, and politicians here decide a nice war would keep their constituents from burning them in effigy in the streets.

  7. Japan is at 236% of GDP and growing, yet the sky isn’t falling. In a fiat currency world, debt is just accumulated currency depreciation. By the way, the depreciation on the currency, maintains the banking system via propping up asset prices. Deficit spending hurts the poor and helps the rich. And by the way, if other countries bitch about our budget deficit than we’ll be happy to remove and replace your gov’t through our military, CIA and media propaganda. .

    1. “Japan is at 236% of GDP and growing, yet the sky isn’t falling. In a fiat currency world, debt is just accumulated currency depreciation.”

      Just accumulated currency depreciation? You make the credit bubble and the system that created it(and supports it) sound so benign. Every major country is trapped by debt and they must create more of it(while driving rates to zero) else have it all collapse. The costs of this failing system will only be fully realized when it actually fails and needs to be replaced. Meanwhile the social strains grow ever greater setting the stage for the collapse to come.

  8. Debt is derived from spending which requires taxation – tax and spend, tax and spend. Forcibly impose confiscatory taxation and redistribute wealth,” is the liberal-socialist-progressive-democrat-cum communist motto. The American thesis of freedom and self-reliance requires no spending (wars aside) other than basic “…general Welfare.”

    Interestingly, Professor Turley fails to mention that the entire American welfare state should have been struck down by the Supreme Court at its inception, circa 1913, and every point thereafter. The Supreme Court has been driving out of its lane since 1861. The singular American failure has been and is the Supreme Court. The judicial branch is totally corrupt and “legislates from the bench.” America has two political legislative branches and no judicial branch. The only actions that should be taken relative to the Supreme Court and judicial branch are impeachment, conviction and guillotines for the worst kind of treason – deliberate corruption and abuse of power, usurpation of power and nullification of the fundamental law; the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    Article 1, Section 8 allows taxation for only general welfare not individual welfare. General welfare translates to ALL WELL PROCEED and involves basic goods and services that all people use in similar amounts and frequency – roads, water, post office, sewer, electricity, trash pick-up, etc. (food, clothing and healthcare are used differently in type and frequency on an individual basis).

    Article 1, Section 8 allows regulation only of exchange, trade or “…commerce among the several States…” and no other regulation is enumerated or constitutional. Industry is and must be self-regulating. Citizens may seek “relief” from industry in courts of law. The right of citizens to petition the government for grievances does not provide those citizens any power to seize private property, socially engineer and/or impose dictatorship in America.

    One of the Framers of the Constitution stated the fundamental duty of the judicial branch.

    “…courts…must…declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void.”
    ______________________________________________________________________

    “[A] limited Constitution … can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing … To deny this would be to affirm … that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.”

    – Alexander Hamilton
    _________________

    Karl Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto 59 years after the adoption of the Constitution because none of the principles of the Communist Manifesto were in the Constitution. Had the principles of the Communist Manifesto been in the Constitution, Karl Marx would have had no reason to write the Communist Manifesto. The principles of the Communist Manifesto were not in the Constitution then and the principles of the Communist Manifesto are not in the Constitution now.

    The entire communistic American welfare state is unconstitutional including, but not limited to, affirmative action, quotas, welfare, food stamps, rent control, social services, forced busing, minimum wage, utility subsidies, WIC, TANF, HAMP, HARP, Education, Labor, Obamacare, Obamaphones, Social Security, Social Security Disability, Medicare, Medicaid, “Fair Housing,” laws, “Non-Discrimination” laws, etc.

    Any and all antithetical, unconstitutional and communistic programs of redistribution of wealth, social engineering, central planning and/or control of the means of production (i.e. regulation) must be privatized and removed in their entirety and with extreme prejudice from the realm of government and taxation.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    1. Prairie Rise,
      If you include the debt that the U.S. Treasury owes to the Social Security Fund, we are at about 105%. Some do not include those borrowed funds ( about $3 Trillion, I think) that the U.S. Treadury borrowed from SS surplus.
      There was a bipartisan agreement in the mid-1980s to shore up the SS system with higher payroll taxes and by pushing out retirement age eligibility. This was designed to meet the massive expenditure of Social Security payments for the next 2-3 generations, and a big surplus of payroll taxes collected v. benefits paid out was built up over a period of about 25 years.
      Those surplus funds were invested in U.S. Treasury t-bills/ t-notes/ t-bonds at the going rate of interest. We stopped running a surplus several years ago; now, SS payments exceed payroll taxes collected.
      So the U.S. Treasury is required to pay back the $Trillions it borrowed from the SS surplus…..that’s supposed to guarantee current levels of payments to beneficiaries until about 2030 or 2035.
      At that point, annual payroll taxes alone will fall short of paying benefits at current levels; the suplus will be gone, and payroll taxes alone would probably cover about 75% of benefits.

  9. Budgeting is not that difficult of a concept. You have to manage the relationship between revenue and expenses. The private sector does this effectively or else they are out of business. Government on the other hand has no such incentive. Politicians sell spending and a tax strategy that someone else is going to pay for it. If the revenue doesn’t meet expenses, politicians won’t cut expenses because that is the opposite of what they sell. Instead, they shift the blame to the revenue side and those not paying their fair share.

    In other words, an economic meltdown caused by politicians who act like children in spending without any notion of how we will actually pay for these programs.

    A prime example of this is the recent dust up with the 9/11 fund. Jon Stewart blames Sen. Paul and Sen. Lee for voting “against” the bill. What they had actually tried to do was get an amendment in the bill that required the pay go provision be used to make the bill budget neutral. Apparently to Stewart, that attitude for a politician is balanced budget virtue signaling.

    One obvious step in the right direction is a balanced budget amendment. Short of that, then term limits. Neither sell politically, so they won’t happen. So the beat will go on, debt will grow and the political finger-pointing will continue.

  10. A billion here a billion there. Pretty soon you get into real money. Today that phrase should read a trillion here a trillion there….. But do you understand what one trillion is? Well, another way of saying one trillion is one thousand billion. ONE THOUSAND BILLION. [Consider the fact that the universe is a little under fourteen billion years old.] Want to count to one trillion? Better start right away. If you say one number per second, it will take you 31,710 years to get to one trillion.

  11. TRUMP TAX CUT SURGES DEFICIT AND DEBT

    The first thing you need to know is that the Trump tax cut caused a huge rise in the budget deficit, which the administration expects to hit $1 trillion this year, up from less than $600 billion in 2016. This tidal wave of red ink is even more extraordinary than it looks, because it has taken place despite falling unemployment, which usually leads to a falling deficit.

    Strange to say, none of the Republicans who warned of a debt apocalypse under President Barack Obama have protested the Trump deficits. (Should we put Paul Ryan’s face on milk cartons?) For that matter, even the centrists who obsessed over federal debt during the Obama years have been pretty quiet. Clearly, deficits only matter when there’s a Democrat in the White House.

    Oh, and the imminent fiscal crisis people like Erskine Bowles used to warn about keeps not happening: Long-term interest rates remain very low.

    Now, the evidence on the effects of deficit spending is clear: It gives the economy a short-run boost, even when we’re already close to full employment. If anything, the growth bump under Trump has been smaller than you might have expected given the deficit surge, perhaps because the tax cut was so badly designed, perhaps because Trump’s trade wars have deterred business spending.

    Edited from: “Deficit Man And The 2020 Election” by Paul Krugman

    The New York Times, 7/19/19
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Here Paul Krugman is responding to the same report as Professor Turley.

    One has to realize the Trump tax cut was one of the most irresponsible pieces of legislation in recent memory. To begin with, the economy was doing fine at the time said cut was passed under Paul Ryan’s leadership.

    Therefore as a stimulus, the Trump tax cut was basically a sugar rush on top of a caffeine buzz. A stimulus that only benefitted big corporations and the richest 1%. In fact, last fall, during the midterm election campaign, Republican pollsters discovered that most voters had seen no gain from Trump’s tax cut. For that reason, Trump shifted focus back to the border when Republicans had planned to run on their tax cut ‘triumph’.

    But the most disturbing aspect of Trump’s tax cut is the limitations it places on our ability in responding to the next recession. Historically tax cuts were a tool that policymakers relied on during recessionary economies. Debts were then paid-down during economic expansions. However Trump has increased our debt-load amid robust expansion. Which gives us far less room for stimulus when the economy contracts.

    As individuals most of us would pay-down our debts in good times when income is strong. There would be no logic to leaning on credit cards when our paychecks are fat. Yet Trump and the Republicans have taken on that course in defiance of conventional logic. Which totally discredits Republicans with regards to fiscal discipline. Their only concern was providing kickbacks to billionaire donors in the form of extraneous tax cuts.

    1. Krugman: “Historically tax cuts were a tool that policymakers relied on during recessionary economies. Debts were then paid-down during economic expansions.”

      The debts have NEVER been paid back during the expansions. That’s the obvious lie of Keynesian economics and why it inevitably leads to disaster.

      1. We had sypluses at the end of Clinton’s presidency and Republicans immediately pushed for tax cuts

        “…. Bush described the reductions as giving extra federal funds back to taxpayers.

        “We recognize, loud and clear, the surplus is not the government’s money,” he said. “The surplus is the people’s money. And we ought to trust them with their own money.”…”

        https://www.npr.org/2011/06/07/137009472/ten-years-of-bush-tax-cuts

        1. We accumulate debt in every economic cycle even during Clinton’s years- that’s a fact.

          While I applauded then and still applaud now Clinton’s balanced budget, that’s certainly not the whole story. We were at the tail end of the internet bubble when we were able to “balance the budget” for a tiny period of time. We certainly were nowhere near a balance sheet neutral path. Clinton also repealed Glass-Steagall which plays a key role in the overall problem.

          The blame for the policies that got us here should be spread far and wide.

          1. Clinton signed the bill repealing the Glass-Steagall act, but it was in a bill called the Gramm;Leach-Bliley Act (all republicans) which was initially passed with only a couple of Democratic votes in the Senate. Clinton had passed his tax bill raising the top rate to 39% (still much underrates in the Eisenhower years fort instance) in his 1st year in office and despite claims the sky would fall by Republicans, the economy grew and the deficit continually narrowed. It received not one GOP vote in either house. The Bush Tax cut – which used the surplus as a reason – passed on a party line vote even after the CBO scored it to add $1.5 trillion to the debt.

            1. The 2001 and 2003 tax cuts were passed at least partially in response to the Recession that Bush 43 ran into a few months after he took office.
              The huge stock market decline started about a year before that.
              Additionally, the economy took a hit from 9-11- 2001.
              I think Bush had a split Congress during that period, but I don’t know what % of Democrats and Republicans voted for it.
              Reagan got his tax cuts passed with a mostly Democratic Congress, but I don’t know the vote totals by party for the 2001 & 2003 tax cuts.

  12. Both parties have lead us down this destructive path over many decades. We will be forced back to a gold standard at the end and it will be very painful when it comes. The Fed is at the center of this disaster because they have removed the normal check on spending. They have encouraged the growth of debt at all levels(private, corporate,government) beyond what can be naturally sustained.

    1. The Fed isn’t the least bit culpable. They purchase Treasury issues on the secondary market as a means of regulating the dimensions of the monetary base, that’s all. You have deficits because Congress refuses to balance revenues and expenditures. The President could resist more than he has, as could his predecessors. He’s a Republican, though, and our dopey electorate blames the Republicans every time there’s a fanciful ‘shut-down’. And a gold standard would not be a solution to anything and would almost certainly be episodically destructive.

      1. “The Fed isn’t the least bit culpable.”

        This is the most ignorant statement I’ve seen in a long time.

        The Fed printed four trillion dollars to purchase US government debt and they’re ready to print another four trillion next go around as they take interest rates below zero like the other mad central banks around the world. They are the ones funding the global credit bubble and allowing everyone to go deeper into debt. Of course that is only half the equation…the other half is the borrower, but the Fed continuously moves to ever lower interest rates to accommodate the debt that can’t be paid back. When rates are zero(or negative) you can borrow to your heart’s desire thanks to the central bank. Of course this only applies to governments and mega corporations.

        1. “Ignorant” does not mean what you fancy it means. Ignorant means, not knowledgeable, not that it conflicts with whatever recycled bit of Austro-crank rubbish you’ve been trawling through.

          The Fed purchases Treasury issues and other securities on the secondary market. The Treasury does not borrow directly from the Fed. The Fed’s purchases had no unsalutary effect, as can be seen if you just bother to examine price indices. The annual increase in the GDP deflator has been under 3% for the last 28 years.

          The Fed isn’t responsible for the accumulation of public sector debt. Those policy decisions are made by others. While we’re at it, the face value of the Fed’s store of Treasury issues has increased pari passu with gross domestic product over the last 7 years. The proportion of outstanding Treasury issues held by the Fed — 10% — is the same now as then. (In 2007, prior to the financial crisis, the Fed held about 8% of outstanding Treasury issues, as it did in 1998).

          As for private sector debt, the ratio of outstanding mortgage debt to GDP is almost precisely what it was 16 years ago, about 0.76. That ratio went from 0.5 in 1974 to 0.68 in 2001 before Dr. Bernanke made any effort to lower the discount rate and federal funds rate (which last bounced around a real rate of 3.5% during that whole period). That’s derived from interactions in private credit markets. Pretty much the same story with consumer debt loads, which increased from 12% to 18% of GDP from 1974 to 2001 (and currently stand at about 20% of GDP). The ratio of debt service to household incomes (and service in this sense incorporates both interest payments and principal retirement) has hardly changed in 40 years.

          1. “The Fed’s purchases had no unsalutary effect, as can be seen if you just bother to examine price indices.”

            I’ve been in the markets for over 30 years and my knowledge greatly exceeds yours.

            (1) You should examine the bond price indices. There is now over 12 trillion in negative yielding debt. Fed purchases of treasuries(they’ll PRINT an addition 4 trillion during the next recession taking their balance sheet above 8 trillion from close to zero in the past) will drive US interest rates to zero/negative.

            (2) Asset prices have detached from income due to the Fed printing money to buy assets. So, the average young Joe who doesn’t own assets(stocks, real estate) sees a world he can not buy into. I would hardly call that “unsalutary.”

            (3) Driving interest rates to zero means that those dependent on interest income rather than asset price inflation are made to suffer. The elderly have been badly hurt by zero rates- the days of 6% CD’s are long gone. I would hardly call that “unsalutary.”

            (4) If you’ve been examining the price indices then you would know that any hint of anything other than extremely loose monetary policy sends the market tumbling until the Fed comes to the rescue again. That’s why the Fed is cutting rates with the market near an all time high. The inability of the market/economy to “withstand” 2.5% interest rates tells you things are very bad underneath the hood- everyone in the markets knows this but liquidity drives markets in the short term.

            Recession indicators are flashing red. It’s just a matter of time now- sometime in the next 18 months or so. Trump is doing his utmost to push the inevitable painful recession to after the election. I say it hits before.

            1. Fed purchases of treasuries(they’ll PRINT an addition 4 trillion during the next recession taking their balance sheet above 8 trillion from close to zero in the past) will drive US interest rates to zero/negative.

              Their current portfolio of Treasury issues is $2.1 tn, or 10% of the outstanding issues. Again, they held 8% of outstanding issues prior to 2008.

              I’ve been in the markets for over 30 years and my knowledge greatly exceeds yours.

              And you’re talking rot. No wonder securities firms ran themselves into the ground.

                1. About 17% of outstanding mortgage-backed securities are owned by the Federal Reserve.

                  Ginnie Mae, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Farmer Mac all have positive net operating income.

                  Say howdy to Nurse Ratched for me.

      2. A gold standard certainly wouldn’t cure Congress of spending beyond its means. We had a gold standard for much of the time entitlement spending was dramatically increased to buy votes, Project Apollo was funded with funny money, and the war in Vietnam burned money even more efficiently than NASA did. If, at that time, the Social Security General Fund had been set off-limits for funding anything but retirees’ retirements, we wouldn’t have to look at ballooning debt even further to pay for Social Security now. Instead, it became Congress’ cookie jar, to be dipped into at need to finance other things.

        1. Rather than cut spending during the Vietnam years, they went off the gold standard and here we are. Now that we realize it was all a big mistake we should go back to gold. We can never cure humans of their collective stupidity, but we can change course when we realize how stupid we have been and hopefully be wiser and more courageous the next go around.

          I do think we have a fundamental problem in the very structure of our government that plays a significant role in the bad decision making we see at the federal level: namely, we should go back to 25 thousand citizens per Rep, rather than the nearly 1m we have now. Smaller Congressional districts leads to smaller Federal government.

      3. there is no need for a gold standard. that is a cranky notion perennially advanced by people who have a long position in gold and mining stocks which isn’t paying back as fast as they would like

        if there was ever a bunch of right wing BSers, it’s the gold bugs

        that said the price of gold is an interesting and worthy subject in terms of its historical relationship to money, and how it interacts today

        1. i don’t mean you ivan, i was a gold bug for decades, a lot of people think its a panacea, but it isnt’

          what i have learned is that there’s a gold bug book and newsletter industry., that is always long on gold and their only hope for riches is if we go back on gold standard, regardless of effects on society as a whole

          i saw somebody linked jim rickards. yeah, he is part of it

          1. Our last experience with the classical gold standard was conducted from 1929 to 1933. In case you were wondering why we no longer adhere to one. Margaret Thatcher relied on Sir Alan Walters a great deal for advice on macroeconomic policy. His curt assessment in 1984 of advocates of reviving a gold standard was thus: “I think they’re crackers”

  13. Give me a break! Trump loaded up the deficit with take cuts for the rich and famous. This is essay is infuriating in its attemp to suggest an equivancy here that does not exist. I’m not surprised but it is disappointing.

    As to his “promise”, Trump has promised many things and he usually does the reverse. He lies.

    1. The debt under Obama, 2009-2016, increased from $11.9 trillion to $19.5 trillion, a 63% increase by a single Democratic president. So far, the rate under Trump is far less.

      1. The debt under Obama was largely due to the worst crash since the Great Depression, which means revenues were way down and automatic spending increases on unemployment, food stamps, etc went way up. Obama smartly had enacted a stimulus bill which was 1/3 tax cuts for working people. We now have Trump and the GOP passing a stimulus bill in a period of growth and absent any emergency. This is when you try to pay it back, not make it worse, including raising tax rates on top rates as Clinton did in ’93, not blow open the budget by giving them tax cut.

    2. Trump inherited a system that is way beyond saving. No one wants to be the one to trigger the inevitable. So he does more of the same…as does the Fed. I don’t like any of it, but this is how things have been for decades now. It’s been a long slow slide into the abyss and there’s no fixing the system now.

      The blame does spread equally between the parties (I’ll exclude the libertarians, like Ron Paul, who’ve always been advocating for a return to the gold standard). Ever more tax cuts and ever more spending is the “what could possibly go wrong?” path few have spoken and acted against all these years.

      What we’ll ultimately see is a combination of currency devaluation along with a return to some gold-like standard. It will be a giveaway to asset holders and those in debt combined with a “commitment” to hard money, to not devalue…until the next time.

      Does anyone remember Ross Perot? The “crazy aunt in the basement” is finally here. He was so right…RIP.

      1. Uh, Rand Paul voted for the budget busting in a period of growth rich guy tax cut stimulus of 2017. No, he doesn’t GAF about deficits.

  14. I blame the Republicans more; they have always claimed to be the “responsible” party

    Don’t expect much from the Democrats; they have always been fiscal wastrels in their hunt for votes.

    Shows that there is a Gresham’s Law for fiscal integrity.

    There is a saying: “What cannot be repaid, will not be repaid.”.

    Think wisely about your retirement investments (look at the Puertorican bonds, not much publicity about the bondholders taking it in the shorts, in spite of the obligations of the debt holders).

    Huge transfer of wealth from the”haves” to the spendthrift’s.

    We are seeing the same here on a larger scale.

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