Facts are often strangers to politicians who want to trigger emotive responses in targeted groups. The problem is when good politics make for bad law. That seems to be the case with Senators Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren who have declared that Michael Brown was murdered five years ago in Ferguson, Missouri. The problem is that their statements would mean that Officer Darren Wilson is a murderer. However, Wilson was cleared in the shooting, including an exoneration by the Obama Administration. Wilson could conceivably claim defamation but the standard is quite high for a public figure.
Three months after the shooting, a grand jury rejected an indictment of Wilson. Later a report released by President Barack Obama’s Department of Justice found that Wilson most likely had reason to fear for his life in using lethal force. That latter conclusion followed a controversial decision by Obama and his Attorney General Eric Holder to intervene before the completion of the local investigation. Some of us raised the concern that the intervention of Obama and Holder signaled a strong desire for federal charges. However, the Justice Department found no credible evidence of murder.
The DOJ concluded:
Department of Justice Report Regarding the Criminal Investigation into the Shooting Death of Michael Brown by Ferguson, Missouri Police Officer Darren Wilson, March 4, 2015: As detailed throughout this report, the evidence does not establish that the shots fired by Wilson were objectively unreasonable under federal law. The physical evidence establishes that Wilson shot Brown once in the hand, at close range, while Wilson sat in his police SUV, struggling with Brown for control of Wilson’s gun. Wilson then shot Brown several more times from a distance of at least two feet after Brown ran away from Wilson and then turned and faced him. There are no witness accounts that federal prosecutors, and likewise a jury, would credit to support the conclusion that Wilson fired at Brown from behind. With the exception of the two wounds to Brown’s right arm, which indicate neither bullet trajectory nor the direction in which Brown was moving when he was struck, the medical examiners’ reports are in agreement that the entry wounds from the latter gunshots were to the front of Brown’s body, establishing that Brown was facing Wilson when these shots were fired. This includes the fatal shot to the top of Brown’s head. The physical evidence also establishes that Brown moved forward toward Wilson after he turned around to face him. The physical evidence is corroborated by multiple eyewitnesses.
Nevertheless, Harris wrote: “Michael Brown’s murder forever changed Ferguson and America. His tragic death sparked a desperately needed conversation and a nationwide movement. We must fight for stronger accountability and racial equity in our justice system.”
Warren tweeted that “5 years ago Michael Brown was murdered by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri. Michael was unarmed yet he was shot 6 times. I stand with activists and organizers who continue the fight for justice for Michael. We must confront systemic racism and police violence head on.”
The non-profit website factcheck.org and the Washington Post have both chastised Warren and Harris for their statements.
While both Harris and Warren have criticized Trump for ignoring his own Justice Department and politicizing the legal process, these allegations of murder would seem to raise the same concerns. What would be interesting is if Wilson elects to sue for defamation. This could be defended as opinion. However, even under the New York Times v. Sullivan standard, there are cases to be made for “actual malice,” which is defined as either knowing falsehood or reckless disregard of the truth.Wilson could claim that the statements constitute reckless disregard of the truth as established by the Obama Administration and the grand jury.
What is interesting is that both Warren and Harris are rejecting the results of the state and federal legal systems, including the judgment of professionals at the Justice Department in the case. They have criticized Trump for the same type of dismissive approach to legal standards.
What do you think?
267 thoughts on “Warren And Harris Accuse Cleared Ferguson Officer Of Murder”
Another pair of high minded liberals fighting white racism.
Harris and Warren are non-stable non-geniuses.
Why use a false story to wind up racial animosity in this country? Are a few votes that important? Anyone who does this immediately proves she is unsuited to any public role. This is much more dangerous than pretending to be an Indian to secure a position in Harvard.
If the Farrelly brothers would like to make a female version of their film “Dumb and Dumber”, I do believe we have a couple of contenders.
DOW DROPS 800 POINTS IN RESPONSE TO YIELD CURVE
TRUMP PUTS BLAME SQUARELY ON FED CHAIRMAN
@realDonaldTrump 6h6 hours ago
..Spread is way too much as other countries say THANK YOU to clueless Jay Powell and the Federal Reserve. Germany, and many others, are playing the game! CRAZY INVERTED YIELD CURVE! We should easily be reaping big Rewards & Gains, but the Fed is holding us back. We will Win!
11,769 replies 11,869 retweets 48,402 likes
@realDonaldTrump 8h8 hours ago
The Great Charles Payne @cvpayne correctly stated that Fed Chair Jay Powell made TWO enormous mistakes. 1. When he said “mid cycle adjustment.” 2. We’re data dependent. “He did not do the right thing.” I agree (to put it mildly!). @Varneyco
7,841 replies 11,016 retweets 38,644 likes
@realDonaldTrump 10h10 hours ago
“The Fed has got to do something! The Fed is the Central Bank of the United States, not the Central Bank of the World.” Mark Grant @Varneyco Correct! The Federal Reserve acted far too quickly, and now is very, very late. Too bad, so much to gain on the upside!
8,059 replies 11,890 retweets 42,302 likes
Edited from The Real Donald Trump, Twitter
The Inverted Yield Curve has reliably predicted every recession in the past 50 years. Which means a strong likelihood exists that a recession could come just in time for next year’s presidential campaign. This could be terrible news for Trump whose approval rating has rarely climbed above the low 40’s. Trump has aggressively taken credit for the economic recovery which is now in its 10th year.
But today’s Tweets suggest that Trump has no intention of taking blame for any recession in the making. Therefore Trump assigns blame in advance on Jerome Powell, his pick for Federal Reserve Chairman. In doing so, Trump puts himself in the clear to loyal supporters. At this time next year, the Trumpers on this blog will all be blaming Jerome Powell while claiming ‘Trump tried to avert the recession but Powell obstructed him’.
Keep a good thought, Hill. Maybe you’ll get lucky and the recession will be on us before the 2020 election.
If not, and Trump wins a second term, you and Natacha can pour your hearts out about how he cheated to win, or how terrible this will be for America.
TRUMP ALSO TWEETS SUPPORT FOR CHINA’S PRESIDENT
@realDonaldTrump 5h5 hours ago
I know President Xi of China very well. He is a great leader who very much has the respect of his people. He is also a good man in a “tough business.” I have ZERO doubt that if President Xi wants to quickly and humanely solve the Hong Kong problem, he can do it. Personal meeting?
18,265 replies 14,604 retweets 59,733 likes
Donald J. TrumpVerified account @realDonaldTrump 5h5 hours ago
..deferral to December. It actually helps China more than us, but will be reciprocated. Millions of jobs are being lost in China to other non-Tariffed countries. Thousands of companies are leaving. Of course China wants to make a deal. Let them work humanely with Hong Kong first!
6,103 replies 11,154 retweets 49,183 likes
Donald J. TrumpVerified account @realDonaldTrump 5h5 hours ago
Good things were stated on the call with China the other day. They are eating the Tariffs with the devaluation of their currency and “pouring” money into their system. The American consumer is fine with or without the September date, but much good will come from the short…..
6,101 replies 11,118 retweets 49,776 likes
Hill, why do you preface most of your posts shouting in all caps?
I don’t have a problem with conciliatory remarks to leaders like Xi. that’s constructive.
I don’t know if it’s wise to tie the HK mess to the trade issue. I scratch my head at that.
It has been part of US trade policy for decades not to let the human rights abuses of the Chinese regime get in the way of trade negotiations. And wow they have a lot of abuses! But the CPC is firmly in charge and one could probably expect zero progress at that task, so why endanger what can be done constructively?
I bet Trump sees it that way too, probably understands that fully, just tweeting whatever stuff bubbles up in the brain at the moment. That’s scary but after a few years of watching it, I Have to say, sometimes it works! Fingers crossed.
they’re losing factories to Vietnam and will keep on losing them unless they devalued by even much more. which would be crazy and anger many more chinese on the mainland than cracking a few heads in HK, they’re used to cracked heads in mainland and won’t cry too much if they slap HK into submission. but if they devaluate away purchasing power in favor of plutocratic interests, then hell to pay. Chinese watch exchange rates and interest rates like hawks. I can’t believe the mental math they can do when counting up the vig, very impressive
Off topic SPAM, Again!?!?!? A course in comprehension maybe in your future, you can’t stop posting irrelevant comments.
Blog tip: No one reads Hill anymore. He’s got a cut and paste intellect. Not much value in that unless you need a ransom note.
I stopped reading Hill a long time ago. It was killing too many brain cells.
Foxtrot Foxtrot Sierra says: August 15, 2019 at 10:39 AM:
“I stopped reading Hill a long time ago. It was killing too many brain cells.”
And you clearly don’t have any to spare; you’d better hang on to the ones that you have, FFS.
>>What is interesting is that both Warren and Harris are rejecting the results of the state and federal legal systems,
Far be it for something so inelegant to get in the way of Harris and Warren’s pandering to preconceived beliefs in a game of ‘can you top this.’ I’m surprised the pair didn’t try to blame Trump for inspiring Darren Wilson to shoot an unarmed teen while also accusing the administration of somehow forcing investigators to clear Wilson.
Warren and Harris what are you proposing to stop illegal immigration?
“ICE: Undocumented immigrants in Md. rape friend’s 11-year-old sister on separate occasions”
These 2 probably want to screw around with the Supreme Court. I put nothing past them.
“want to screw around”
that would be Kamala Harris who got to the current station she holds by doing just that.
What a fine group of uppity womyn these gypsies, tramps, and thieves are!
She used “Rent-A-Family” for this election and arranged to present a nice white clan. She has no husband who is the father of her children. She is a barren woman. What good is a woman who produces no children. What good is a nation without babies. What good is personal, despotic power in the absence of children and a family. She is an unmitigated failure who seeks personal power as compensation; a megalomaniac. She sought that power initially through the provision of sexual intercourse and succeeded. She has no “family values;” she cared not about the “children” of the family she tried to destroy. She has no soul. She corruptly and illicitly seeks an office she is not eligible for – while she may be a “citizen,” she will never be a “natural born citizen.”
It’s an interesting debate about which way to go on this. Should we embrace Senators Kamala Harris’ and Elizabeth Warren’s truth on the matter or are the facts actually more pertinent in this case? Many great minds have struggled with this general issue of truth vs. facts:
jamescfeldman – please give us a list of at least five of these “great minds” who have struggled with the general issue of truth vs. facts. 🙂 You cannot use Harris and Warren because they do not qualify as great minds.
Sure, Paul C Schulte. I’d be happy to oblige.
“A harmless truth is better than a useless fact.”—Thomas Mann
“Facts are precious, but the truth is more precious than facts.”—Benjamin Disraeli
“Truth is ever to be found in simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of facts.”—Sir Isaac Newton
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, even when contradicted by the facts.”—Thomas Jefferson
“The facts may weigh you down, but the truth shall set you free.”—John, Chapter 8
“Never let inconvenient facts stand in the way of your inconvenient truth.”—Al Gore
jamescfeldman – you were doing fine until you got to John. You would be hard pressed to find him listed in “Great Minds”. The same with Al Gore. You got a B though, good job.
james – do you know what these statements mean?
Truth is distilled from facts. Otherwise, it is opinion, connection, hypothesis.
I have not heard of the Thomas Mann quote that you provided. I am familiar with his saying, “A harmful truth is better than a useful lie.”
Disclosure: Please understand that my quotations are fictitious, although they are based on actual citations from the respective sources stated. My posts on this subject from beginning to end were intended to be satirical.
I gather that you made the quotes up. However, that means that you are unable to contribute statements from great minds differentiating truth from facts, as Paul requested.
Truth is supposed to be based upon facts.
When people talk about their personal truth, what they really mean is their own opinions, or personal experiences.
Karen, my posts were intended to be satirical. “Great minds have struggled” with a broad range of issues, but, of course, the “general issue of truth vs. facts” isn’t one of them. So, naturally, any evidence or examples that I’m going to provide to support my false proposition will necessarily be fictitious or fake. The humor in this is that the fictitious quotations are, indeed, based on actual quotations, and they are meant to sound genuine; but the “meanings” are absurd when read closely.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Thomas Jefferson
Now, you can point out the hypocrisy, that slaves were not considered men, or that women were not included in the general mankind definition, but when you use quotes, be accurate. Otherwise, don’t use quotes.
In point of fact, we do believe that all men are created equal, and spent a great deal of blood to end slavery, which had existed globally since before recorded time, and in fact still thrives on the African continent.
Karen, we spent a great deal of blood defending slavery as well, with deaths only slightly more on the Union side then on the confederate side. The number of slaves killed, mutilated, and raped is unknown.
Slavery is no longer legal anywhere on earth, including the African continent, though it still exists in various forms including the US, with the greatest numbers being in India, China, and N Korea. How that fact is somehow relevant to our history is for Karen to explain. She’s good at making excuses for a.sholes.
Meh. Democrats, you and Hill entice black women with welfare to murder their babies as those illustrious PP centers so as to enslave Blacks and accelerate eugenics.
Democrats are the modern day Masters of enslaving Black on the plantations of PP
Blacks in America wisely vote Democratic and have powerful leadership positions within it. The modern GOP – used to be what most blacks supported a long time ago – looks and is as white as the KKK, and with Trump leading it, acts that way on some issues too.
wrong, blacks are represented in Republican party, and were not in the kkk
kkk is defunct, just a bunch of loons with po boxes selling goofy outfits. why you always mention?
oh wait dont answer that. cue for another diatribe. Trump is racist, I am racist, whites are racist, elect your guys who will take our money and maybe you will get a slice.
Yes, both of them. That nutcase behind Trump at every rally and Tim Scott. Will Hurd is cashing it in.
Abortion has claimed the death of 20,000,000 Blacks since Roe v Wade. Genocide
Really? The GOP acts like the KKK? Burning crosses in people’s lawns, lynching people, killing?
What a slap in the face to anyone who actually was terrified by the Democratic Klan. If the KKK showed up at a black man’s door, there would be a line of people down the block to beat the snot out of them. Black people do not wake up in the morning scared of the Klan.
about 360k to 258k according to estimates upwardly revised in past decade.
that’s more than “slightly more”
the union had to take a lot of hits and my ancestors lost many brothers in the Yankee infantry meat grinder
US National Park Service:
110,100 killed in action
224,580 disease deaths
275,154 wounded in action
211,411 captured (including 30,192 who died as POWs)
94,000 killed in action
164,000 disease deaths
194,026 wounded in action
462,634 captured (including 31,000 who died as POWs)
Union – 364,872
Confederate – 289,000
Disease deaths made the biggest difference.
Anon – it is true that the great evil of slavery was perpetuated globally, and since recorded time. From our position in time, it is difficult to understand its persistence, other than it was the inevitable result of the law of the club.
Ending slavery was avant guard. The US and Great Britain were on the forefront of this fight, with the latter preceding us by a few years through buying slaves’ freedom as property.
Slavery does exist in isolated pockets in the US. Examples are sex trafficking, kidnapping, cults. The Ariel Castro kidnappings constituted sex slavery.
However, slavery not only exists in some areas of the world, it is relatively common. As you noted, India, China, and N Korea contain great numbers of slaves overall, being highly populated countries. If you look at per capita slavery, African nations hold many of the top spots. Eritrea is 2nd, with 93/1,000 people enslaved, Burundi at third has 40/1,000, Central African Republic at 4th has 22.3/1,000, Mauritania at 6th has 21.4/1,000, South Sudan at 7th has 20.5/1,000. I remark on the African nations where slavery is so common because it is ironic that there is talk of reparations in the United States for the harm done to African Americans, when slavery is still common in Africa today. Apparently, the descendants of those who sold their enemies to European and American slavers are still doing it today. The US was one of the first to abolish this evil practice, and yet they are being punished. It was innovative to take this leap forward in human rights, and yet people want revenge that this idea was not discovered earlier. The reality is that slavery was a universal practice, and is still common in other countries. While illegal slavery exists in isolated pockets in the US, it is not a common problem, and often involves other crimes such as kidnapping.
The debt was paid when people who did not own slaves died to free them. We should learn from our mistakes and move on. It is impossible to even the scales for every past injustice ever done, as there have been many, and you do not punish the sons for the sins of the fathers.
Could you imagine if these 2 babes were the team going against Trump and Pence next year. At least we would have a clear choice in that election.
Sign on a store wall outdoors in Jennings, MO which is off West Florrisant Blvd near Ferguson: Warren and Harris sitting in a tree. K I S S I N G. First came love. Then came marriage. Then came Harris with a baby carriage.
Harris and Warren won’t connect the dots in their statements and accuse the Obama administration of releasing a murderer directly. Because, of course, it did no such thing.
Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren think they can straighten out the dent in their party’s polling among African Americans. ANY loss in that support for a Democrat candidate is going to be painful to their 2020 election chances.
As noted near the beginning of this article, the average time from the onset of the inverted yield curve to the actual start of a recession is 22 months.
IF a recession does follow this recent yield curve inversion, and IF the start of a recession follows the average lag time of 22 months, that puts the U.S. in recession in Mid- June of 2021.
That is 7 months or so after the 2020 election.
There were high expectations on the part of some that the Mueller Report would destroy the Trump presidency.
Now that those hopes are dashed, the hope is for a recession by Nov. 2020, less than 16 months away.
The TDS group would do well to adjust their expectations of a recession by late 2020 sinking Trump’s chances at the polls.
It was a severe disappointment to see that the Mueller Report won’t drive him out of office, and that in all likelihood they’ll have to wait for an election to replace Trump.
If the recession does not arrive in time, and Trump wins again in 2020, I fear that the strain of an additional disappointment will be too much for them.
“In all likelihood they’ll have to wait for an election to replace (the President).”
Can you see how far off normal the Dem party has taken political discourse in 3 years. Imagine who we’d be aligned with if Hil the pill had been elected.
This group is toxic and I don’t just mean to our President.
The insurance policy didn’t pay off, Leon, so those who were hoping to bounce Trump before he finished his first term were deeply disappointed.
Now they’ll need to actually wait for an election at the end of a completed first term to have their chance, and some are salivating at the idea that a recession before Nov. 2020 would doom his chances for a second term.
If that recession doesn’t arrive in time, and Trump wins another term, consider adjusting your portfolio to include for-profit psychiatric facilities.
Harris and Warren have merely thrown more lead weight onto the train wreck that the Democrat 2020 Presidential primary is. Even the usual toxic, morally bankrupt commenters on here are overwhelmed in not being able to defend their Fuhrers, having been left to reply to each other.
Strangely the Democrats are doing exactly what Hillary did: going after the 13% of the US population as opposed to the entire populace. They really hate Americans but Elizabeth and Kamala love their benjamins!
We need to make Harris and the other one go live in Michael Brown’s neighborhood.
“Only Sanders and Gabbard are addressing the wars and issues of the working class and they are being smeared by msnbc and cnn”
I’d like to see a Sanders/Gabbard ticket, but won’t…
But perhaps the most jarring effect has been on the Baltimore Police Department.
“In 29 years, I’ve gone through some bad times, but I’ve never seen it this bad,” said Lt. Kenneth Butler, president of the Vanguard Justice Society, a group for black Baltimore police officers. Officers “feel as though the state’s attorney will hang them out to dry.”
Several officers said in interviews they are concerned crime could spike as officers are hesitant to do their jobs, and criminals sense opportunity. Butler, a shift commander in the Southern District, said his officers are expressing reluctance to go after crime.
“I’m hearing it from guys who were go-getters, who would go out here and get the guns and the bad guys and drugs. They’re hands-off now,” Butler said. “I’ve never seen so many dejected faces.
“Policing, as we once knew it, has changed.”
Lt. Victor Gearhart, a 33-year veteran who works in the Southern District, said residents with complaints about police “are going to get the police force they want, and God help them.”
Will police stop patrolling beats? No. But they will now hesitate to become involved. If anyone bothers to actually talk to a cop, they will learn that morale is way down. Body cameras both protect cops from false accusations, and also make it clear that every word, move, and action they take in a life threatening situation will be taken apart from the safety of a desk, and after the fact. They’ll tell you there is no point anymore for even arresting certain types of criminals in CA because they will just be back out on the street the next day.
If you want to learn more about a cop’s life, talk to the ones exposed to typhus by the homeless. The ones walking through Hepatitis infectious human feces. They’ve already had to deal with worries about being stuck by infectious needles while patting down junkies. They have to deal with the mentally ill living on the street, when they are not trained mental health professionals. Meth addicts. Opiod addicts. Car accidents with kids. This is all while activists claim most of them are racist.
It is dishonorable and disgusting how our country blanket treats the police, while they try to protect strangers and lock up the bad guys. Kaepernick with his pig socks is a bigoted fool. Instead of going after the few bad apples in a fair and just system, too many are casting out the whole barrel.
Hmmm. Group think in a group that has no experience in thinking.
God help us all. Amen.
Any study on “de-policing” fails to take into account a pulling back and hesitancy on the part of a beleaguered law enforcement.
“More than three-quarters of U.S. law enforcement officers say they are reluctant to use force when necessary, and nearly as many — 72% — say they or their colleagues are more reluctant to stop and question people who seem suspicious as a result of increased scrutiny of police, according to a new study published Wednesday by the Pew Research Center.”
“In an op-ed in the Chicago Sun-Times published Wednesday, Mayor Rahm Emanuel said it was crucial that the city have an “engaged, proactive police department” as the city tries to stem the violence that has disproportionately impacted a few low-income, predominantly African-American and Latino neighborhoods.
“If the reforms we must, and will, make are seen as demonizing the police, the police will naturally become reactive,” Emanuel wrote in anticipation of the Justice report. “They’re only human. The clarity, certainty and standards they need to do their jobs will be lost, and the result will be more violence. That is not a recipe for success in our communities. The only winners in that case are the gangbangers and drug dealers.”
Now Here’s Something ‘Really’ Stupid!
REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN DEFENDS RAPE & INCEST
EXPLAINING NO EXCEPTIONS FOR ABORTION
U.S. Rep. Steve King told the Westside Conservative Club on Wednesday that humanity might not exist if not for rape and incest throughout human history.
“What if we went back through all the family trees and just pulled out anyone who was a product of rape or incest? Would there be any population of the world left if we did that?” he said in Urbandale, Iowa. “Considering all the wars and all the rapes and pillages that happened throughout all these different nations, I know that I can’t say that I was not a part of a product of that.”
The Kiron Republican was discussing his defense of not allowing exceptions for rape and incest in the anti-abortion legislation he tried to pass in Congress. Republican leadership had prevented bills he sponsored on banning abortions from advancing through the House, despite GOP support for the measures, King said.
Just because a conception happened in bad circumstances doesn’t mean the result isn’t a person, King, who is Catholic, argued.
“It’s not the baby’s fault for the sin of the father, or of the mother,” he said.
King went over his positions on abortion and a variety of other issues, including immigration, guns and more, when he talked to a group of 50 people at the Machine Shed in Urbandale at a breakfast meeting.
He also discussed the criticism he faced over a New York Times quote on white nationalism and white supremacy in January. He said he was told by political insiders that there was a plot to take him out of power.
Edited from: “U.S. Rep Steve King: ‘If Not For Rape And Incest, Would There Be Any Population Left’?
Today’s Des Moines Register
Thanks for posting an article about King. He’s a pig…and it’s time for him to go.
“Steve King’s New Democratic Challenger:
J. D. Scholten – The Atlantic
Aug 5, 2019 – How Steve King Could Turn Iowa Blue … least three viable Republican challengers, none of whom appears to share his penchant for nativism.”
Let’s hope Iowa shows some sense and gets rid of King once and for all.
Yes. As I recall, it was a fairly tight race, last time around.
Please explain why if someone does not want to kill the baby produced by rape, they are defending rape.
There are arguments for and against this issue, but no one defends rape.
King did not defend rape, he defended the worth and value of the innocent children produced by it.
How do you think the blonde gene spread so far? The Vikings were prolific rapists and pillagers. Considering that humanity evolved from the law of the club, it is accurate to say that each and every one of us, at some point in our lineage, must have been a product of a violent act. The act itself was terrible, throughout history, but the people it produced were innocent of the crime of their conception.
Why do you think that children conceived of rape deserve to be killed? That is a harsher penalty than the rape itself. I can think of lots of reasons why the rape victim would not wish to carry the pregnancy, but why would the child himself or herself deserve to die?
Exceptions for rape and incest are common in abortion restriction laws. This is just the argument against it. There are other arguments for it. As long as people deliberately insert false conclusions, there will be no discourse, only poop throwing. Why not be open to the arguments from all sides, think about it, and then come to a conclusion?
Karen, if you want rape victims being forced to carry the products of rape, you’re in a very small minority. Very small minority!! And that’s what happens when people spend too much time in the rightwing news bubble. They imagine their extreme views reflect the mainstream.
you probably don’t know this nor care but that position was and is essentially the Catholic position. namely, the intentional taking of the unborn life is illicit. there are no exceptions.
now if there is a surgery to try and fix a woman’s serious health problem that indirectly kills the fetus that’s a different story, like, say fixing a fallopian tube with an ectopic pregnancy by removing the fallopian tube. in that case, they intentional thing is to remove the damaged fallopian tube, not kill the fetus, although death will result, it was not intended, just helping the woman. somebody else can say if i have that incorrectly explained.
i am just sharing what i learned in high school theology. you can take it up with Rome if you don’t like it.
my position doesn’t matter nor my opinion’s, that much i have learned from this blog.
Kurtz, as I told Karen, forcing women to carry the products of rape is an extreme position with very little support.
Peter Hill – when you are totally committed to the Pro-Life stance, you really do not care about the support of others. It is your immortal soul that is on the line.
Paul, could a candidate for Governor of Arizona win while promising to ban all abortions with ‘no exceptions for rape or incest’? Because i don’t think you could win in ‘any’ state with that stand.
Peter Hill – I never thought a homosexual would be elected Senator of Arizona or a bi-sexual, but it has happened. Arizona has strange politics.
Paul, your answer implies that AZ is getting more liberal. And that makes sense since Phoenix is becoming a very big city. Therefore I suspect the answer to my initial question is ‘no’.
Peter Hill – when I first moved here, Arizona was a Democratically controlled state. Then a SC required one man, one vote. Arizona suddenly became Republican controlled. Cities/towns in Arizona have non-partisan elections. You are not allowed to put your political affiliation down when running for office. Judges in the two major counties are selected by a panel and run for re-election unopposed. It is an up or down vote.
Since we attract people from other states, they bring their politics with them. Jeff Flake was a successful Rep but a horrible Senator. He had to go and Arizonans were happy to tell him that. Janet Napolitano started as AG, then became governor. She was a good AG, worthless governor.
oh another thing. lets just say rape ok? incest between consenting adult relatives is not rape. offensive and wrong on many levels and perhaps criminal — but not rape. whereas, incest which is an adult abusing an underage child is just rape and it should not be diminished by calling it incest.
this relates to the loathsome practice of pleading down child abuse as incest– the “incest loophole” which thankfully has been closed in most states. look it up if this is a subject of interest in legislative topics
Mr Kurtz – rape also includes statutory rape which is especially a problem in states that don’t have a Romeo and Juliet exception.
Paul isn’t amazing how these leftist goofballs leave out the slavery coming from south of the border? …And where guns are concerned they don’t care about the blacks and hispanics killed in inner cities run by Democrats. They also seem to love gun violence because while the police battle was still going on in Philadelphia Kamala Harris and other Democrats were busy politicizing the violence. What a bunch of hypocrits.
Hill, you have not answered my question.
it may have more support than you realize was my point
i hear tell that the various Christian Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc) except rape from their own official and similarly dogmatic opposition to abortion.
For my part, I can justify abortion of the products of rape with the same sort of ethical two step they use to justify
surgeries to correct dangerous ectopics for example (explained above). So: for a D&C to sanitize a uterus which has received a nonconsensual deposit of bodily fluid, the intention is only to cleanse the uterus of the offensive material. That objective is a licit and proper one. The intention is not to intentionally terminate the life of the fetus. That the unconsented biological material may ripen into life which is thereby terminated is a possible consequence, but it’s a consequence which is not the primary intention, so a D&C is licit under that scenario, in my mind.
Of course, I’m not theologian, a poor Catholic, and often told I’m in error. Well, one gets used to it. And i have so many sins on my plate that error of reasoning, if it be one, is just another morsel.
Peter Hill – I know my views are not mainstream, however that does not mean I do not hold them dearly.
“Exceptions for rape and incest are common in abortion restriction laws. This is just the argument against it. There are other arguments for it. As long as people deliberately insert false conclusions, there will be no discourse, only poop throwing.”
Hill (a/k/a poop thrower) –
“Karen, if you want rape victims being forced to carry the products of rape, you’re in a very small minority.”
Please Mr. Hill, show us the quote from Karen’s post where she stated her wish for rape victims to be forced to carry the products of rape.
“Karen, if you want rape victims being forced to carry the products of rape, you’re in a very small minority.” I actually have not stated what I believe the law should be requiring rape victims’ pregnancies. In point of fact, I have expressly stated that I do not know what good abortion law would look like at this time. I have only said that I find abortion to be tragic.
You stated that if someone opposes abortion of children conceived in rape, then they supported rape. I pointed out the flaws in your logic. Of course it does not condone rape; it merely states that the child should have the right to live. This is the argument against. I asked you to make the argument for why children conceived by rape should die. There are arguments for why the mother would want to not be pregnant, but what are the arguments for why the child should actually die?
I have yet to hear it.
Karen S – I do not support rape or incest, which I think are abhorrent. I also do not support aborting the baby that might be the product of that act. Historically, Rep. King is very correct.
Isn’t Wilson an involuntary public figure? Moreover, as attorneys I would think the statements accusing someone of a crime are defamatory per se and the fact that one of the persons was the Attorney General of the largest state and the other a Harvard Law Professor a clear indication they made the statements with malice
Democrats have become race baiters and identity politics warriors.
Meanwhile they ignored the struggles of the working and middle class while championing illegal immigrants and criminals.
Only Sanders and Gabbard are addressing the wars and issues of the working class and they are being smeared by msnbc and cnn
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