We have been discussing the destruction of statues and public art in the recent protests, including a new column this morning. I have been highly critical of the defacing of our monuments and destruction of public art. Now the destruction has reached my own campus. The Hatchet reports that one of our iconic busts of George Washington was torn from its foundation on campus. It has not however been discussed by the University or attributed to protesters.
I have long opposed the sweeping efforts to dismantle or destroy historical monuments and statues. (Here and here and here and here and here and here and here). While I recognize that there are some statues that should be removed, my primary objection is to the lack of a public debate over how we should address these calls.
Other statues and memorials to Washington have been destroyed around the country. The news of the toppling of our own statue received surprisingly little coverage by The Hatchet and I did not hear any public statement from our Administration. I would have hoped that our university would have denounced this criminal act as a senseless and unacceptable act.
It certainly would seem to warrant a tad more than “A GWPD officer found the head of a George Washington statue removed from a stand. The head was found laying at the base of the stand. GWPD called Facilities Services following the discovery.”
That sounds like the head was somehow temporarily misplaced or lost rather than being ripped from its foundation and tossed to the ground. That would seem a rather important story for the university — worthy of not just note but actual discussion. If this was not part of the destruction of public art around the city, it would be helpful to consider the alternatives . . . whatever they may be. Toppling this giant bust is no easy task. It would take time and considerable effort. Notably, it is in the virtual center of our campus.
Indeed, the incident would have gone without mention (beyond the empty stand) had it not been for a former GW student tweeting out the missing bust and then a later picture of the scene after the attack.
Kara Zupkus
✔@kara_kirsten
A stunning image– looks like GW may have removed George Washington’s head to protect it from riots in DC. Truly disconcerting times
Kara Zupkus
✔@kara_kirsten
fingers crossed! better to be safe than sorry i guess.
Kara Zupkus
✔@kara_kirsten
Universities have been conspicuously silent or passive in the face of such destruction. There seems a fear that any criticism of such attacks will cause a backlash and additional protests. However, such acts create an environment of violence and intolerance on campuses.
Last night, many of us watched at a huge crowd worked to pull down the statue of Andrew Jackson, one of the oldest monuments in the city. It is near the White House and a few blocks from our campus. The police did nothing as huge ropes were attached and the crowd pulled to topple the statue. Finally, the police arrived to stop the damage but not before the monument was entirely defaced.
Other universities have been transparent in their unwillingness to confront rioters. At the University of Oregon, famous statues of the Pioneer and Mother Pioneer were torn down. The University condemned the destruction and then promptly promised that the statues would be carted away and not returned.
The spectrum of action from universities seems to range from deafening silence to cringing compliance in the face of such destruction. What is being lost is more than public art. We are losing control of our campuses and the preservation of the environment that fosters intellectual, not violent, speech.
America is getting raped. By wild packs of savages who should be incarcerated or extinguished.
The ones who set them in motion and funded them, too. Especially those at the top.
The nonexistent public “leaders” expect us to just sit back and enjoy it.
Right now it’s so far past where we were vis a vis King George, when America organized a violent war of rebellion– right now we are so far past it, in a way, we aren’t worthy of Washington. His generation was not totally emasculated.
‘Dismantling the System’: Noam Chomsky, Aruna Roy Among 19 Signatories of Article on US Protests. Luminaries from over 10 countries – all council members of Progressive International – have signed the article. Progressive International was set up in early May this year under the aegis of the Democracy in Europe Movement 2025 and the Sanders Institute, a think tank founded by members of Bernie Sanders’s family. ‘Solidarity means dismantling the system everywhere’ is signed by 20 luminaries across fields, including celebrated linguist Noam Chomsky.
The article posits the moment of rising protests under the simple cry of ‘Black Lives Matter’ as one of significance in history. It notes the dangerous pitfalls of turning in and cracking down — both offshoots of rightwing thought and action which has gained popularity and political acceptance around the world.
The article also warns against selective importance accorded to a few resistance movements, in order to deny other movements their capacity.
Professor….This is disgraceful!
Do you want to know the difference between our country and Black Lives Matter?
Our country had a father.
“A dad posted joyful photos of black fathers to shatter stereotypes. Then it became a movement.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2020/06/19/dad-posted-joyful-photos-black-fathers-shatter-stereotypes-then-it-became-movement/
Anonymous..Good luck to them. The fact remains…..78% of black kids have no father in household…..that’s why there is a valid stereotype.
I don’t make the news. I just report it.
Give as something to support your view of the world, Ms. Bragg.
“I don’t make the news. I just report it.”
Another little girl reporter. You and your pal Squeeky Fromm are busy commenting on the news, and changing the world. lol.
I am honored to be mentioned in the same sentence as Cindy Bragg! Thank you sooo much!
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
😊..thank you, squeeks!
“I am honored…” -Skeezy Fromm
…and clueless, too, Skeezy.
Skeezy and Simple Sindy are quite the pair.
Anonymous – I support both Cindy and Squeeky. BTW, your remarks are sexist.
Anonymous, they are two wonderful women. A miserable person like you is most fortunate to have contact with them.
🤠 thankyou Allan and Paul
Yeah, and so genteel! Accusing the mothers of debating opponents of being out turning tricks is so charming, or maybe just dementia.
Anon – I support legalized prostitution, so I have no problem with anyone’s mother turning tricks. 😉
Paul – you approve, so long as they’re not your neighbor. It has been hell here with the hussies in the illegal Air BnB, they’re not servicing quietly and keeping the peace. They are doing drugs, getting into cat fights, someone punched a whole through the stairwell wall. One of the girls got into it with her man, and best his Porsche in with a bat at 2-3 a.m.
It is absolutely miserable for all of us in this building. They are a nuisance and we want them out asap. And the Air BnB too.
Rallying the troops. My Jewish posse in the building are pissed about this happenstance too. And everyone has been rallied. The calls are going on, the complaints have been filed.
Next step, the boot for the hussies.
Anonymous – I said legalized. I did not say running an illegal business out of an illegal facility. 😉
Hole *
Beat *
Anonymous – I do not understand your references.
Getting awfully technical in the legal sense. Lol.
“I did not have sex with that woman.”
I recently told someone I did not have dinner with another person, and it is technically true, I had lunch with them, bc it was my second meal of the day, albeit late at night.
The other comment was just a correction, I wrote whole and best, instead of hole and beat. Anyway.
Anon, they are nice intelligent ladies. You… not so much.
OT: Is there another Jessie Smollett type hoax out there? It appears Wallace a NASCAR driver who happens to be black had a noose in his garage where his racing auto was kept. The FBI was called in. It appears all NASCAR garages are the same and all have these nooses. It appears that the noose was a small piece of rope with a circular bottom that acted as a handle to manually close the garage door. Thank goodness that was the answer or we would have a whole bunch of other cities burned and perhaps a whole bunch of people dead because of something that didn’t exist.
Will BLM now sue the garage manufacturer for their racist symbol of a rope handle to close a garage door? I am waiting for Anon / CTHD to connect Trump with the manufacturer.
“Is there another Jessie Smollett type hoax out there?”
I don’t know of a single person who believes it’s not a hoax. I’m sure there are some though.
People like to believe that everyone must be against them even without proof so what you say is likely true. However, it might just be that people are so sensitized to being insulted that a formerly unnoticed hand pull suddenly became noticed and reported. He used that garage for 6 months. It’s either stupidity or a hoax and neither one speaks well for any of the people involved including the reporters and potentially NASCAR.
LOL Allan….great comment….and damned good question!
You have been known to make some pretty good and funny comments yourself.
😊 thank you, Allan!
aren’t you two cute
your own little mutual admiration society
…with lots of exclamation points and smiley faces
You are just an unhappy person, miserable and alone. 🙁
Allan is describing himself, of course. He’s such a loser.
That is why you hide yourself among others, unhappiness and misery. Loneliness sometimes even makes you talk to yourself.
You’re an idiot, Allan. Grow up and get a life.
Good, that utterance probably added a little epinephrine to your system so that you could be a trifle less miseable. But that doesn’t help your loneliness.
I hope you can rise above your failures.
As usual, you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about…, but that won’t stop you from blabbering…
For once in your life, why don’t you STFU, Allan.
“As usual, you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about…, but that won’t stop you from blabbering… For once in your life, why don’t you STFU, Allan.”
Sounds like one of Anon’s gang has enterred a discussion with Anonymous. Typical ignorance.
I hope you’re starting to get the hint. BLM is Marxist and their goal is to takeover the country and establish a communist “government”. It’s not about “racism,” it’s about political ideology.
‘Solidarity means dismantling the system everywhere’
Solidarity among the citizens who cherish law and order means, we immediately demand these lawless acts of iconoclasm to be remediated, deterred, and punished to the maximum extent of the law.
Failure to do so means that the political leaders are puppets of sinister forces and they are not legitimate and can themselves be targeted. Targeted.
It’s not a civil war– until somebody is fighting back. Right now, it’s a massacre of the laws, and property, and a few lives, and ramping up to more. Strike back before it’s too late. A civil war would be an improvement in this gradually deteriorating situation that is picking up steam fast
At the time of the Emancipation Proclamation, slavery had existed for over 5000 years. Not just slavery of Africans, but of all races. It is a scourge not of America, but of humankind. President Lincoln died for his courageous commitment to free slaves. Over 400,000 Union soldiers also died. For every 10 slaves freed, one Union soldier died. Another 250,000 Confederate soldiers died opposing them. It was the bloodiest conflict in our history. The only Civil War fought in this Nation. The only war fought anywhere for the freedom of African slaves.
America’s promise has always been aspirational. We have never been perfect, just better. We have endured not just a great civil war, but war after war to preserve our freedoms. To preserve the aspiration of a perfect and perfectly free nation. Conflict need not be celebrated, but recognized. The monuments of those who made history and who made us who we are are important because they remind us we will oppose injustice wherever we find it. Look upon the monuments as men who were wrong, but were shown the light. Because this nation, if nothing else, is the light.
The Civil War was fought over American slaves and slavery as an American institution, not “African slaves.”
And Confederate monuments do not serve to “remind us we will oppose injustice wherever we find it.” Let’s replace them with monuments that actually do what you say.
CTHD, didn’t you get what you want (are any Confederate monuments left)? What do you want next? Should all of us send you a check?
“didn’t you get what you want?”
No. Which you’d know if you paid attention to what I actually want (posted below) instead of making assumptions about it.
Projecting beliefs onto people is counterproductive.
Why should Young Democrats behave any differently. They have been brought up by histrionic tantrum-throwing adult Democrats. This is little different from Nancy Pelosi tearing up the State of the Union speech, or Adam Schiff tearing up the impeachment process. For the last several decades, Democrats have basically abandoned all pretense of logic in favor on name-calling and smears. They have embraced delusion as a lifestyle choice to the point of pretending to believe that men can become women! And vice versa! Or that illegal immigration is good for the country.
Nope, the Young Democrats who did this are the product of the Democratic Party!
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Anonymous (with a consistent(?) icon) writes: “I am affiliated with a large state university in a professional capacity,”
What does that mean?
Since Darren has taken to deleting my comments, you need not concern yourself with them
Estovir
Estovir, I very much doubt Darren has deleted your comments. I had similar problems and I believe it was with WordPress. Yesterday, some of my comments appeared in email but disappeared from the blog. At other times I have had difficulty posting but with either a slight alteration in name or address the comments were posted. Your comment obviously reached my email.
Why do people always have to find a human to blame before considering all other possibilities?
That was written by me Allan. I deleted my Estovir gravatar wordpress blog as it was ancient content from when I was in medical school in Puerto Rico.
clearly Darren found my comment objectionable.
Estovir
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a4.htm
The nature of the family
2201 The conjugal community is established upon the consent of the spouses. Marriage and the family are ordered to the good of the spouses and to the procreation and education of children. The love of the spouses and the begetting of children create among members of the same family personal relationships and primordial responsibilities.
2202 A man and a woman united in marriage, together with their children, form a family. This institution is prior to any recognition by public authority, which has an obligation to recognize it. It should be considered the normal reference point by which the different forms of family relationship are to be evaluated.
2203 In creating man and woman, God instituted the human family and endowed it with its fundamental constitution. Its members are persons equal in dignity. For the common good of its members and of society, the family necessarily has manifold responsibilities, rights, and duties.
* The Christian family
2204 “The Christian family constitutes a specific revelation and realization of ecclesial communion, and for this reason it can and should be called a domestic church.”9 It is a community of faith, hope, and charity; it assumes singular importance in the Church, as is evident in the New Testament.10
2205 The Christian family is a communion of persons, a sign and image of the communion of the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit. In the procreation and education of children it reflects the Father’s work of creation. It is called to partake of the prayer and sacrifice of Christ. Daily prayer and the reading of the Word of God strengthen it in charity. The Christian family has an evangelizing and missionary task.
2206 The relationships within the family bring an affinity of feelings, affections and interests, arising above all from the members’ respect for one another. The family is a privileged community called to achieve a “sharing of thought and common deliberation by the spouses as well as their eager cooperation as parents in the children’s upbringing.”11
II. THE FAMILY AND SOCIETY
2207 The family is the original cell of social life. It is the natural society in which husband and wife are called to give themselves in love and in the gift of life. Authority, stability, and a life of relationships within the family constitute the foundations for freedom, security, and fraternity within society. The family is the community in which, from childhood, one can learn moral values, begin to honor God, and make good use of freedom. Family life is an initiation into life in society.
2208 The family should live in such a way that its members learn to care and take responsibility for the young, the old, the sick, the handicapped, and the poor. There are many families who are at times incapable of providing this help. It devolves then on other persons, other families, and, in a subsidiary way, society to provide for their needs: “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained from the world.”12
2209 The family must be helped and defended by appropriate social measures. Where families cannot fulfill their responsibilities, other social bodies have the duty of helping them and of supporting the institution of the family. Following the principle of subsidiarity, larger communities should take care not to usurp the family’s prerogatives or interfere in its life.
2210 The importance of the family for the life and well-being of society13 entails a particular responsibility for society to support and strengthen marriage and the family. Civil authority should consider it a grave duty “to acknowledge the true nature of marriage and the family, to protect and foster them, to safeguard public morality, and promote domestic prosperity.”
Now, I have two responses and assume both are from Estovir. I don’t think Darren is that type of person so I think you can use a fixed icon with your name and adjust it when WordPress screws up. Some bloggers have been banned legitimately but I can’t believe you would be one of them.
Is the November election now between BLM and everything else? Defund the Police it is said. How about defunding the Dem party. Upon a more educated review of the Dem’s and their roll in slavery, they should be defunded, since it was them who kept alive the slavery by voting on jim crow laws, and memberships in the KKK. And of course they are still doing it – through abortion, being a slave to welfare, being a slave to the handouts started by LBJ. Yes, generations of keeping the blacks oppressed and “back to chains” as Joe Biden said in Las Vegas.
Marxists and anarchists are roaming the streets destroying property. BLM and Antifa are a major part but the tolerance offered by Democrat leaders hoping to gain political advantage open the doors to this type of destruction.
I hope those left of center start to realize that this type of action Democrat leaders permit leads to the deaths of blacks and other minorities in large numbers along with the destruction of communitie where they live.
Don’t forget those paid by George Soros. He pays $30/hr plus $49 for food and travel. He will NOT pay your bail.
Exhibit n+1 of Paul making claims without providing any evidence.
Actually, its $28.50/hr plus $65 for food and travel expenses(?).
Committ – I saw it on Twitter and looked for it again, but I am not good on Twitter so maybe you can find it. Found a crap load of stuff looking for Soros. 😉
Everyone of those creep’s in the University management system are hiding under their desks, instead of having had the statues removed in advance. Ya see, this is KEY in what is happening to America. It’s the so called educators. They are a bunch of MARXIST’S AND SOCIALISTS.
This is “political correctness” on steroids.
I oppose people destroying public works of art, and it’s ludicrous to suggest that GWU not have any images of Washington. More generally, if people want public art removed from the university, they should petition the university to remove it from its current location and move it into the historic collection at the museum. In this case, I think a more appropriate response is to contextualize the art with information.
+1
CTHD, I also agree that there should be a debate and discussion about removing controversial statues and “works of art” as JT calls them. But, was there a discussion and debate when they were put up? Especially those meant to emphasize “southern pride”.
Those tearing down confederate statues or “works of art”. Could also be an extension of protest, just like the Boston tea party involved destruction of property even though they were more civil about it. People want change to occur quickly, they don’t want more “talk”. It may seem wrong to just topple monuments, but it serves as a catalyst for the changes they are demanding.
Svelaz, it seems your train of thought can only remain on a topic skin deep. You made a statement, but ran away from defending it. I guess you don’t have firm beliefs that are well thought out. ( last topic was on secession by the southern states https://jonathanturley.org/2020/06/18/ucf-professor-under-investigation-and-police-protection-after-tweeting-about-black-privilege/comment-page-1/#comment-1968360 ).
Allan, didn’t run away. Unlike some folks here I do have a life outside of the Internet.
Yes it is a narrow life limited to headlines and talking points. After you run out of either one you run away.
+10
@Svelaz wrote “But, was there a discussion and debate when they were put up? Especially those meant to emphasize “southern pride””.
Yes, there would have been a process and discussions for that.
I don’t believe in destroying historic items. They belong in museums, archives, … It’s important for us to keep them as historic records. I disagree that statues are equivalent to tea; statues are intended to be fairly permanent, and tea is intended to be consumed. I prefer a healthier response re: the statues, including a discussion of the difference between the Confederate monuments (where the thing those people were known for is the Confederacy and fighting to keep slavery) and statues of the Founding Fathers (yes, they owned slaves, but that’s not why they’re honored).
Charles Lindbergh was an Anti-Semite. Should any statues of him or places named after him be removed? Have Jewish people taken down his statues or occupied places named after him? Jews for the most part placed their energies into making their lives and families better and so today are quite successful. What is this short story trying to tell you?
CTHD, this is a reasonable approach except that you’ve already decided that the statues can’t stay in the areas they already were, but must be in museums and archives. But definitely, if the statues irritated LOCAL residents, then there should have been reasonable discussions until an appropriate solution was reached. I see no discussions now but just violence, and I doubt that the tearing down of the statues now is being done by the residents who actually live there.
Your claim that I’ve “already decided that the statues can’t stay in the areas they already were, but must be in museums and archives” is bullsh*t. I said “if people want public art removed from the university, they should petition the university to remove it from its current location and move it into the historic collection at the museum. In this case, I think a more appropriate response is to contextualize the art with information.” At no point did I “decide[] that the statues can’t stay in the areas they already were.” I think that’s for the various governments/institutions/… to decide with public discussion, and my personal opinions about diverse statues vary with the statues.
explicitly anti-white racist laws begin
https://nypost.com/2020/06/23/oregon-county-issues-face-mask-order-exempting-non-white-people/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter
ANOTHER “CIVIL WAR 2 MILEPOST” has been reached
things are moving fast now folks. form that neighborhood watch group fast. cops are not coming to the rescue when it all jumps off
CTHD, perhaps I wasn’t being clear. I wasn’t stating that the destruction of statues be a direct comparison as objects, but in the acts. Both instances did involve destruction of property to protest an injustice.
I do agree that such monuments should be in museums, but the truth of why they were put there in the first place was not about historical significance. It was an act of defiance when civil rights of blacks were being officially put into law. The acknowledgment that they too deserved the same things everyone else did. The majority of those monuments were erected as an assertion that they still didn’t see blacks equal. Tearing those monuments down however distasteful it is emphasized the point that those monuments were never about history.
I disagree that “those monuments were never about history.” They’re about the history of the period during which they were erected — which is mostly not during or immediately after the Civil War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Confederate_monuments_and_memorials#/media/File:Confedarate_monuments_(2).png — and also about the attempt to rewrite the history of the Confederacy to gloss over the fact that they were traitors.
Not traitors to their home states. please recall, in 1788 and the following two years, it was the states ratified the union’s constitution.
hence the states preceeded the United States as a whole. this matters? or does it not?
at the time in their thinking, loyalty to the home state was a greater duty than loyalty to the US
nowadays, that’s unimaginable, and we have no respect for older generations
this means, no respect for history, or our ancestors
but that’s how you people roll. let’s just quit pretending these are issues that can be resolved with reason. it’s past time for talk and into time for meeting the violent protesters with greater violence. this is my recommendation. if the police will not enforce the law and end the vandalism then the people must act accordingly
you can”t reason with iconoclasts. their actions are declarations of war in themselves.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31813681#:~:text=AP%2FAFP%20The%20Taliban%20reportedly,were%2055m%20and%2037m%20high
Those who joined the Confederate States of America were traitors to the United States of America.
Can you admit this?
Committ – No
No. I feel like Lincoln called for peace and reconciliation and I am ok with Lincoln’s take on it. Did he attack them as traitors? No. If anybody is refighting the lost cause it’s you crazies doing it today who want to urinate on the graves of the side that lost.
My ancestral family lost 3 sons in the Yankee infantry. I’m not going to listen to these stupid tirades. You guys are full of craaaap
“With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.”
–Abraham Lincoln
You guys want a new civil war? this one won’t end so nicely as Lee and Lincoln ended it
and it won’t be a clear cut geographical dynamic either. it will destroy the union regardless of who wins
WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT GEORGE SOROS WANTS
this is the plan of globalism. destroy the United States, destroy the dollar, in comes the IMF SDR, end national sovereignity, end borders, end capital controls, end the free movment of labor ie immigration restriction, for every nation in one fell swoop. the plan has been out there in the open for decades, coming ever clearer and clearer
oh wait maybe the PRC will get to keep their sovereignty and currency controls and immigration restrictions and borders.
and just the EU nations and the US will have to “bit the bullet” and give up all our “stuff”
Every war is about plunder and the aims of this incipient war are already very clear and the booty will be windfall unimaginable profits and control for Soros and Silicon Valley and the CCP who are all in it together or so it seems.
Svelaz, your way to create a loving world is to poke those you don’t likeor who disagree with you in the eyes.
I so happen to like a bunch of statues that so happen to be of of confederate soldiers. Some were well done and represent a page in our history. If someone asked me how I felt about what they fought for despite my admiration for art I would flatly say that the cause of slavery was unjust as would the vast majority of people looking at the statue. It would make me think of how to make things better and reflect on those things that made things worse..
Allan, “ It would make me think of how to make things better and reflect on those things that made things worse..”
Given how you have been denigrating BLM, and others. What a load of BS. I doubt you were able to say that with a straight face.
BLM has been violent as has Antifa and some white supremecist groups. Look at some of the videos and listen to those that are major leaders. I am sure there are peaceful people that associate with BLM but if they team up with violent people that makes them violent as well. No, I don’t agree with mixing in with violent people and I don’t like to stand around while innocent people are being accosted.
That you can’t see is your problem. Just look at what has happened in Seattle. It’s grotesque. We have a bunch of people that includes BLM who have taken over private property and public streets while letting a kid die in the street because they wouldn’t let the police and paramedics offer a higher level of emergency care. They are the type of people you adore. I would rather lock them up and let the non violent people protest peacefully.
George Floyd was not a good example for anyone and his death is relatively unimportant. We shouldn’t be focussing on him rather we should be focusing on the police involved that almost everyone scorns. That is an area of agreement that needs resolution. You would rather poke people in the eye while watching thousands of people suffering along with over a dozen deaths.
“Especially those meant to emphasize “southern pride”.”
What’s wrong with taking pride in where you’re from?
“What’s wrong with taking pride in where you’re from?”
Leftists have no pride. That is why they believe in virtue signalling, destroying the neighborhoods they live in and eating one another.
Somebody sure sounds like they got strapped to a 4 poster once by a “leftist”.
No, but I have seen similar actions performed by leftist leaders. Perhaps your type likes to stand around and watch.
TruthHertz001,
“
“Especially those meant to emphasize “southern pride”.”
What’s wrong with taking pride in where you’re from?”
It’s not about where you’re from, it’s about what you’re being prideful of? Those statues symbolize two things. Treason seen as heroic, and the idea of owning people as property as a right. That’s not exactly something to be prideful of. Now southern hospitality and culture absent the slavery issue doesn’t need to be symbolized by icons that are already well known as “racist” and still recognize the ideals that let slavery be deemed acceptable.
DEO VINDICE
Rubbish.
Svelaz. Frankly, I am opposed to negotiate with a mob. That’s no better than arguing with yourself. You can see snippets on TV News (that is a joke) where the MOB is yelling over a person who is trying to have a reasoned discussion., But they want nothing to do with reason – except their reason. Remember, the mantra is REASON FOR ME AND NONE FOR THEE. That confirms just how unwittingly stupid they are, and have been trained by the teachers of America (not all but the vast majority). Lets all salute these teachers, shall we?
Yes, I agree that any decision to remove historical references anywhere should be undertaken by a public debate. But we don’t have public debate in the US at the moment. All the work done by the framers to prevent an angry mob from undue influence has been set aside because those separated powers have been side-stepped.
Instead we have an angry mob empowered by the knowledge that their critics will be publicly labeled as tone deaf racists. Unchecked power.
This will not stop any time soon for some very basic reasons:
People, mobs, and institutions rarely will willingly cede power because that power tends to fuel their existence. George Washington himself is famous for following the Roman legend of Cincinnatus and walked away from government at the revolution’s end despite being the most popular and powerful person in the young nation. That we still remark upon this decision reveals its rarity.
In the French Revolution, the mobs lashed out against well established limits on their political freedoms and economic opportunities, and were fueled ideologically by the Enlightenment. Our modern mobs are instead lashing out by an assertion of systemic racism that cannot be supported by data and analysis, nor can it be articulated through public debate. Instead, it’s simply a demand to accept an alternate version of reality as reality itself.
This attack on George Washington at his namesake university is sadly fitting, for it is the consequence of an unchecked creation of propaganda in the name of scholarship by too many so-called scholars in American universities. These charlatans have for decades elevated their explanations of human behavior from possible to most plausible in an insular existence that many people likely thought were a bunch of harmless kooks.
The problem with harmless kooks is that they sometimes can be useful idiots. Like all propaganda, there are enough facts weaved into their narrative for an appearance of credibility. Mix one part propaganda with one part assertion that past historical atrocities are actually an original sin that can never be forgiven, and then serve up that concoction to politicos looking for power and a media thirsty for sensationalism. Instead of our cocktail being a thoughtful creation sipped by happy patrons, it is instead the molotov variety launched at those patrons.
“we don’t have public debate in the US at the moment. All the work done by the framers to prevent an angry mob from undue influence has been set aside because those separated powers have been side-stepped.”
Seems to me that an angry mob actually has very little influence. They can destroy some things, but an angry mob — as compared to a large number of people writing their representatives, showing up at city council meetings, etc. — has little effect on laws or on the day-to-day lives of most people. I’d argue that a much bigger danger to the separation of powers and to public debate is Mitch McConnell’s refusal to take up a huge number of bills advanced by the House (when the Senate should debate them and vote on them), acts of Congress like the AUMF that give too much power to the President, …
It’s due to the fact that Democrats have tried to reverse the 2016 election and Congress under Democratic leadership has been dishonest. It is also due to the fact that our legislative body long ago ceded too much power to the President. Both parties were more interested in being reelected than in working for the people. We need term limits, smaller government and a return to the Constitution where amendments change the Constitution rather than activist judges.
We can see some of this on smaller scale but it occurs almost exclusively in Democrat run cities where over half a century some of these cities still can’t solve their problems and that can be seen in the high number of killings of black youths and minorities and the high unemployment as the remaining youth get older.
@CTHD The mob does indeed have a lot of tangible influence. Most of the recent blog articles here have about what they are doing and the consequences of their activities.
As far as your other comments, my own experience with working with our local state representatives and especially our city council is that it’s simply a game to them. Legislation gets passed to satisfy an agenda and at best there is a pretense that it’s actually solving a problem. Their primary purpose is to keep themselves in power and they do this by appearing to help. Not actually helping, but appearing to help. An obvious example is the democrat run cities in this nation – they run them and still blame everyone else for all of the failures. Republicans aren’t necessarily any better,
An angry mob has *some* tangible effects; as I said, they can destroy some things.
Turley’s choice of topics is neither a random nor representative set of what’s worth discussing in the country, so the fact that he, personally, is choosing to focus on them really doesn’t say much.
Let’s also be clear that the majority of people protesting over the last few weeks around the country have not been violent or destructive. I joined a very large and peaceful protest in DC on 6/13.
@CTHD They aren’t just pulling down statues. They are trying to get people fired for speaking out against them. That means others are staying quiet lest they risk their careers. That is a huge problem because it undermines freedom of speech by preventing any kind of public discussion around these issues.
Most protestors on the street are not violent, but many of those same protestors are taking to social media and causing the problems I described above. Call it what you want, but they are having a destructive effect that goes far beyond the physical damage of the rioters.
For example, how many discussions have we seen in the mainstream media or in academia or by politicians about any proof of systematic racism in the US? They refuse for the most part to even address the police interaction data and the studies that have analyzed that data because it doesn’t support their narrative. The facts simply don’t matter to them. Instead, we get a seemingly endless parade of comments from schools and businesses saying all the right things.
If you are interested, you might find the recent podcast by Sam Harris rather enlightening. He’s certainly no conservative shilling for the right. https://www.reddit.com/r/samharris/comments/h7wxus/making_sense_podcast_207_can_we_pull_back_from/
There won’t be a healthy debate in academia. The “debate” never really started because of the fear that an opinion other than approved by the mob would end careers. We have seen individuals who attempt to make the arguments that we all know, end up in academic purgatory expected to kowtow to the mob.
There’s no debate now, that’s for sure. There is violence against property and the response should be arrests and prosecutions.
If here is no law enoforcement response, then the failed leadership invites those who love the Father of our country, to initiate reprisals. That means violence against their vandal pets, and eventually, the failed leadership itself
This is a liminal moment before the current provocations lead to civil war. Or will my side not fight back, will it just be a massacre? We’re gonna find out. But it’s not a civil war yet, both sides need to be shooting for it to be a war. This is the dynamic and its very close
No, except in your dreams, it’s not.
i dont dream for it, it would be a nightmare. but better a civil war than one that ends with us getting liquidated in a massacre
Oh yeah …… wait, who’s going to massacre you?
I dont know. i guess you don’t know until it happens
but somebody was driving down a nearby country road shooting at houses the other day and 6 were hit. this was past the suburban range into the rural area. never happened before. oh, the cops ineffective as ever. and they look scared. and i also had a window broken at office in broad day light. cops taking that report looked scared too. not a protest, just a new level of random vandalism and violence, because– obviously law and order is back on its heels. these things don’t make the news, of course, the newspapers want to keep a lid on things.
maybe a fancy pants like you book, lives in such a nice gated community you don’t care what less successful crackers beneath you might have to put up with. isnt that right? get on out to the links book it’s a nice day, enjoy your retirement
Mr Kurtz – just asking because since we opened up a little, we are getting some vandalism. I think the teens are letting off steam. Only a theory.
Sorry guys i had to step away from our fun conversation for a minute.
i just heard from a buddy in “chicagoland” a big Democrat., he wanted to know “which handgun” etc.
calling me from the parking lot at the gun shop
called me back, my number one was “out of stock” and he had to go with suggestion #2
“selling like hotcackes” the owner said
this guy was sore when I told him months ago he would need to “Get a FOID card” first. long wait but he followed through– things are only that much worse now than they were two months ago– that was BEFORE Geo Floyd and people were already scared
“They are trying to get people fired for speaking out against them. That means others are staying quiet lest they risk their careers.”
Unfortunately, that’s the case for lots of issues. As a simple example, consider potential government whistleblowers who are staying quiet because they see what happened to the person who filed a totally legitimate whistleblower complaint re: Trump’s phone call with Zelensky (the complaint was determined by the Inspector General to be both “credible” and “of urgent concern”). Consider the many people who experience sexual harassment but stay quiet about it out of fear of what happens to people who speak publicly. Etc.
As for your claim that “it undermines freedom of speech by preventing any kind of public discussion around these issues,” there’s plenty of “public discussion around these issues.” Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.
@CTHD “Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences”
That has become the rule and not the exception for these issues. I don’t want to live in that world. And if you’re okay with it, you better hope that you’re always in agreement with the mob.
When do you think the rule was that freedom of speech was consequence-free?
Seems to me that “Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences” has always been the rule.
And no, I don’t “hope that [I’m] always in agreement with the mob.” In fact, I doubt that I’m generally in agreement with any mob.
@CTHD It used to be common for people to say that while they didn’t agree with an opinion, they would fight for that person’s right to express it. Now it’s common to have unpopular opinions suppressed by claiming what they don’t agree with is racist. These are ad hominem attacks the shift the focus from the opinion to the person expressing it.
Re: “It used to be common for people to say that while they didn’t agree with an opinion, they would fight for that person’s right to express it,” again, freedom of speech (a First Amendment right, which protects us from government restriction, except in limited cases such as incitement and perjury) is not a right to avoid the consequences of our speech.
And if someone is making a racist claim, noting that it’s a racist claim is not ad hominem.
Do I believe people should have a First Amendment right to make racist claims? Absolutely.
And people also have a First Amendment right to assert that a claim is racist.
@CTHD I would expect any claims of racism to at least be justified, and just as importantly, the definition of racism cannot be determined by a select few. Not as a legal requirement, but as a necessity for freedom of speech to have any real meaning and value in society.
Disagreeing with BLM is not racist. Saying one believes that All Lives Matter is not racist. Writing a paper challenging some of the ideas supported by BLM is not racist.
“Disagreeing with BLM is not racist. … Writing a paper challenging some of the ideas supported by BLM is not racist”
Categorical statements like those are pretty pointless. Whether or not it’s racist depends on the nature of the disagreement and on what you say in challenging the ideas you’re challenging.
What were you protesting?
“Let’s also be clear that the majority of people protesting over the last few weeks around the country have not been violent or destructive. ”
Tell that to the people that died. Tell that to the people that lost their homes, businesses or jobs. It’s interesting to think that peaceful protestors don’t know how to separate themselves from the violent ones and permit the violent ones to commit violence with impunity.
It sounds likd CTHD gets sexually arroused from such happenings.
“It sounds likd CTHD gets sexually arroused from such happenings”
And this from the guy who accuses me of having middle school humor.
Don’t worry though, Allan. Ad hominem attacks will be covered in a later grade when you get there. It’ll be useful information.
“And this from the guy who accuses me of having middle school humor.”
Yes, Hellvis, and if your reading ability was above elementary school you might have read a bit of psychology and wouldn’t be so confused. What I said might very well fit CTHD and you as well. Start your education with the word ‘paraphilia’ and work your way through so that you start to understand what you are.
If this is allowed to continue, the mobs demands will keep ratcheting up. How long before the call for the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution to be destroyed as well as our name using “America”? It would seem that at some point the ratcheting will reach the point of backlash. Who will stand up and defend our great nation? Who will lead us? Something tells me it will be no one we have heard about.
Whenever I hear about analogies back to the founding fathers, I reflect back to that time period and wonder, would I have been brave enough to join knowing I was putting everything on the line. It’s easy to sit back and say I would have joined the effort today with the knowledge of how the revolutionary war worked out.
To me, the mob has two choices: One, ban together and leave to another country that will in your mind treat you better but more importantly, allow you the ability to fulfill your full potential. Much like many immigrants did by coming to America. I doubt this will happen since, it will take a lot of hard work and generational sacrifice. Two, ban together, get organized and start a real revolution (This will have to require a real devotion to the second amendment). Try to take over a state and implement your perfect govt/society. But understand, this will require again sacrifice, since I do not believe you will like the results of your efforts when the other side pushed back since we are not England and the times and technology have changed since 1776.
“Nietzsche announced the death of God and Dostoyevsky’s Grand Inquisitor asserted that when God is dead all things are permitted. Nihilism rejects any objective basis for society and its morality. It rejects the very concept of objectivity. It even rejects the possibility of communication itself, and a vulgar form of Nihilism, I claim, has a remarkable influence in our educational system today, a system rotting from the head down, so chiefly in universities, but all the way down to elementary schools. The consequences of the victory of such ideas, I believe, would be enormous. If both religion and reason are removed, all that remains is will and power, where the only law is the law of tooth and claw.” Yale Classics Professor Donald Kagan said it best. I’m so sorry this is happening on your campus, Professor Turley!
I could not agree more.
When smashing monuments, save the pedestals – they always come in handy.
Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
This seems to be a human condition, hubris or excessive pride leading to blind adoration of the ‘gods’ or in reaction, mindless hostility. The founding fathers were of a time when the evil of slavery was woven into the fabric of most of the world’s societies. That it was evil must be recognized, as that is the only way to come to terms and eradicate its effects on society. However coming to grips with history is somewhat hindered by eradicating it. Can Americans accept the fact that they were far from perfect in 1776 and still wanting in so many ways today? Colonialists did not so much fight for freedom but for power. They weren’t starving and hadn’t suffered for centuries supporting an aristocracy while living in poverty. It wasn’t much different than today, the leaders went to war with the leaders and the masses did the fighting. The advantages and disadvantages were primarily for and of the leaders. The Civil War was much the same. Almost every Southern soldier that fought had nothing to do directly with slavery, owned none. How much has changed: Vietnam, Iraq, Cuba, etc.? Leave the statues but add the truth. Education is the only way to change.
I do not condone the toppling of these monuments. But toppling them is not erasing history. Removing instruction from our schools and any mention in our books about these individuals and the time period in which they lived would be erasing history.
It’s vain iconoclasm and culture destruction and these lawless acts must be punished to the fullest extent of law.
Moreover, any adminstrator who has told police to “Stand Down” and allow crime must be removed.
If the “Trustees” can’t be trusted to let the police enforce law, then we can’t trust them
At some point it leads right back to Geo Washington who answered King George with organized violence.
Our war of independence proves that organized violence is at times necessary and decisive.
The time for organized violence, against these nation wreckers, culture destroyers, vandals looters criminals and the and the failed leadership who green lighted all this,— is it here?
Taking out the statues takes away the issue visually. Left to the dysfunctional school system where local school districts can teach what they wish, what is reflected by their own bias, ignorance, and bigotry, no statues means the kids will learn what they are taught. In some cases the lies and deceits regarding the South’s position will be even more extreme.
Perhaps statues of Southern ‘heroes’ can be accompanied by plaques and/or statues of slaves. Imagine a statue of a Southern general surrounded by like size figures modeled like Rodin’s, ‘Burghers of Calais’. America could use some real art, the stuff that makes one think. There was a ‘hero’ of the Metis people of Canada, Louis Riel. He was deemed a traitor and hung. The most wonderful monument was raised to remember him by. Outside on the front lawn of the Manitoba Legislature building or capital building, was a circular obelisk of perhaps ten feet in diameter and 16 feet in height. It appeared solid and closed from the front and sides. When, on investigating the piece, one approached, one walked around and found a slot in the back, wide enough for an individual to enter, the place where Louis Riel was memorialized in bronze, life size, and raised on a pediment. It said it all, here memorialized is a hero and a traitor.
Southern hero/traitors cannot be revered in the lies represented by the traditional memorial. But their history can be represented accurately and should be. Take away the statue and the lies remain. Replace the lies with the truth.
issac – some of us take the position that secession was legal and the Confederates were members of another country.
This whole statement is nonsensical. Sorry- but if you don’t believe the FF fought for freedom you were sadly ill educated about our founding. Americans have ALWAYS accepted we were never perfect, not now not then. Agitation by refusal to admit this obvious attitude among the plurality of its citizens is despicable.
You might spend some more time studying history that is not written by the victors. The American Revolution was instrumented by the wealthy and those who would benefit most. That there was an ideological argument is a given. However, the founding fathers were all of the establishment. Hancock provided ships to the British to deport the Acadians, some one thousand to their deaths. They had lived in their lands longer than the colonialists. Once a movement is started then the attacks on freedoms start. When the British were defending the colonialists from the French and their Indian allies, there was no talk of issues of taxation without representation. When Britain tried to obtain revenue from those they protected, then the fun began. It’s much the same with the Civil War. The soldiers could really care less about the issue of slaves. They were fed a crock of *$%& about state’s rights and freedom and joined up, or were conscripted, or ran away. The same is true about Vietnam and Iraq. The reality of the situation is that sometimes a people revolts because they are so downtrodden that they feel they have no other choice. Sometimes it is orchestrated. The American Revolution was, to begin with, orchestrated by the leaders, with little to no input of the masses, those that did the fighting.
Finally i agree with Isaac, to a large extent. Revolutions are generally planned from above and that includes the USA and France too.
nonetheless they were our Founders and we respect them. we understand the meaning of this iconoclasm. it is to dismay and intimidate us.
today the “establishment” figure George Soros, has financed and planned this social chaos as a form of “color revolution” such as he has orchestrated in other nations before. This is a criminal conspiracy against law order and our system of electoral democracy.
George Soros is an Enemy of America.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/10/soros-pumps-28-million-democratic-groups-2020-179367
Democrats are so forgiving…for their own inside the collective. On July 2, 2010, just 10 years ago, the entire Democratic party from Obama, Biden, both Clinton’s and any other Democrat with a name, gloriously eulogized the ex Klu Klux Klansman Senator Robert C Byrd (D) from West Virginia. Sen Byrd has over 50 named projects in W Virginia with his or his wife’s name on them.
Remember this the next time you hear the Democrats use the the race card to destroy the character of anyone not in lock step with their socialist agenda. Tear down a statue? Done. Remove historical pictures or artifacts? Done. Help African Americans out of the cycle of poverty and fear? They don’t have a clue.
How very intellectually dishonest of you Craig Nichols. Yes, Byrd was a KKK member for about a year or so. He eventually publicly apologized for this and his racist views. Let us not forget that Strom Thurmond left the Democratic Party and was warmly welcomed into the Republican Party, despite his lifelong racist views. He never apologized for any of his views or comments.
Incorrect. He was a leader in the clan for YEARS.
Randy, that was then, this is now. Now, nobody is allowed to make even ONE slip or mistake, not even sharing an OPINION. Byrd being a member of KKK, even if only “for about a year or so” and despite his public apology, would not be acceptable under today’s mob standards. So yeah, you just prove the double standard again.
@Randy If some white supremecist nut job shows up anywhere near Trump or a republican, it’s guilt by association. But if a Democrat was in the KKK for only about a ‘year or so’ and eventually apologizes, he gets a pass.
Double standards…
And there is a variety of sordid issues the Democratic party supported in the past. Nothing your average wokester would say out loud publicly.
I’m fine with the past staying in the past. I wish the opposition would do the same.
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. And what rough beast, its hour come at last, slouches towards Bethlehem to be born.
It’s not difficult to see that universities have become places of adolescent daycare and not the lifeblood of civilization. Unable to scam our bankrupt Federal government out of millions to replace lost tuition, it will take decades to re-build institutions of “higher learning” now that they have nurtured and pampered a generation of morons.
Universities are primarily worried about money not education. They fall into folloership by bending to fads to keep student numbers up. They worry about income from events so they can pay expenses for the brick and mortar built in good times. Take away federal grants and loans and see just how many students families figure out there are other things their children can do for careers, useful things. These are reflections fro 26 years working at universities.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
-Yeats
Written in the aftermath of WWI and while his wife was convalescing from the 1918 flu – otherwise known as the 1917 flu by our President.
Except for the flu, we lack the dramatic background and generational disillusionment of that time.