New documents in the George Floyd investigation have been released and it is likely that they will be key to the criminal defense of the accused officers in that case. The documents contain accounts of extremely high levels of fentanyl in Floyd’s blood that could have contributed to his death. The documents are likely to feature significantly in the criminal defense of former officers Tou Thao, Derek Chauvin, J Alexander Kueng and Thomas Lane. While admissibility can be challenged, they reflect findings that will be raised at trial on the impact of these drugs in Floyd’s system. However, the documents in my view do not conclusively establish that the drug use was the cause of the death. Indeed, some reaffirm the view of prosecutors. I do not believe that these documents should not be treated as determinative evidence by the court in pre-trial motions. In other words, this should go to a jury.
The newly released documents include three documents that address the fentanyl issue but there is a critical point of conflict in the accounts. One document is a memo from county attorney Amy Sweasy where she offers a summary of a conversation with Andrew Baker, the Hennepin County chief medical examiner. It includes the following account:
Fentanyl 11. He said, “that’s pretty high.” This level of fentanyl can cause pulmonary edema. Mr. Floyd’s lungs were 2-3x their normal weight at autopsy. That is a fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances. . . . AB said that if Mr. Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death.
That is clearly something the defense could highlight to the jury. Floyd is shown in videotapes complaining that he could not breathe when he was not under restraint. However, the handwritten notes from a meeting contains a notable countervailing statement:
Fentanyl at 11 ng/ml — this is higher than chronic pain patient. If he were found dead at home alone & no other apparent cause, this could be acceptable to call an OD. Deaths have been certified w/ levels of 3.
Baker: I am not saying this killed him.
That is an important distinction since the level of fentanyl could have been a contributor but the legal cause remained the kneeling on the neck of Floyd. Indeed, there is a telling third document from the Armed Forces Medical Examiner System. The federal officials asked for the review and the document states:
The Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner agrees with the autopsy findings and the cause of death certification of George Floyd as determined by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Office. His death was caused by the police subdual and restraint in the setting of severe hypertensive atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, and methamphetamine and fentanyl intoxication. The subdual and restraint had elements of positional and mechanical asphyxiation. The presence of sickle cell trait is a significant finding in this context.
We concur with the reported manner of death of homicide.
The point is that the fentanyl could have made Floyd more vulnerable or susceptible to a fatal medical emergency. However, that would not in my view clearly negate the criminal charge. There is a torts doctrine that “you take your victims as you find them,” meaning that you are still liable for injuries or deaths even if the outcome was magnified by a pre-condition. So, the fact that someone was more susceptible to greater injury due to age or medical condition does not excuse your liability for the full damages when your intentional or negligent tort was the cause of the injury. Obviously, that is a torts and civil rule rather than a criminal standard. However, it captures the notion that the first question is whether the conduct was excessive or violative before looking at the harm caused by the violation.
Thus, the recently released material cuts both ways for the defendants. To the extent that the officers heard Floyd complaining that he could not breathe while still in the car only confirms that he had some medical emergency or condition. That could make the conduct of the officials more sanctionable, not less. Officers commonly deal with people who have drugs in their system and are legally required to consider any medical threat in how they address such encounters. They can argue that the drug use was a type of superseding intervening factor. However, these documents still support the prosecutors on the ultimate cause of death in the level of restraint used by the officers.
“New Footage Shows Delayed Medical Response to George Floyd”
“A Minnesota judge ordered that footage from cameras worn by two officers be publicly released. Here’s what that footage tells us. These videos include graphic imagery.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html
Excerpt:
Mr. Lane’s and Mr. Kueng’s videos provide the first clear evidence of the time Mr. Chauvin places his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck, changing the widely known narrative that Mr. Chauvin held his knee there for eight minutes and 46 seconds. Prosecutors initially gave this duration, then changed it to seven minutes and 46 seconds. The footage shows that neither were correct: Mr. Chauvin actually keeps his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck from 8:19 until 8:28 p.m., for a total of nine minutes and 30 seconds. That is nearly two minutes more than the prosecutors’ amended time.
Mr. Lane’s footage also provides a new and revealing view of how the officers restrain Mr. Floyd.
Mr. Lane prepares to use a belt-like hobble restraint on Mr. Floyd but then puts it away, possibly indicating that the officers feel they have Mr. Floyd under control. From this perspective, Mr. Chauvin can be seen kneeling on Mr. Floyd’s neck and arm and gripping his left hand. Mr. Kueng is kneeling on Mr. Floyd’s upper legs and holding his wrist, while Mr. Lane is holding Mr. Floyd’s legs.
Delay in medical care
The body camera footage also shows delays by the officers and the paramedics who respond.
“This is a cascade of everything going wrong,” said Rohini J. Haar, a medical expert at Physicians for Human Rights, who reviewed the footage for The Times. “And they never recorrected course, even inside the ambulance.”
Six minutes after Mr. Chauvin, Mr. Lane and Mr. Kueng put Mr. Floyd facedown, and only after bystanders have shouted at the officers to attend to Mr. Floyd’s health, Mr. Kueng checks for Mr. Floyd’s pulse and tells Mr. Chauvin and Mr. Lane that he cannot feel it. All three of the officers continue to hold Mr. Floyd in a position that restricts his breathing, and none check to see whether he is getting air.
Two minutes later, emergency responders arrive and check Mr. Floyd’s pulse, but do not assess his breathing. Instead of repositioning Mr. Floyd to assess or treat him on the scene, the medics load him into the ambulance as Mr. Lane joins them.
It takes three minutes after their arrival on the scene — and four more pulse checks — before Mr. Lane begins first chest compressions. It is five additional minutes before a medic ventilates Mr. Floyd — 10 minutes after Mr. Kueng first reported Mr. Floyd did not have a pulse. Mr. Lane eventually leaves the ambulance when the Fire Department arrives.
A spokeswoman for the Hennepin County Medical Center did not respond to an emailed request for comment asking why paramedics did not begin chest compressions sooner.
“They spend an unthinkable amount of minutes taking his shirt off before they even check his breathing,” Dr. Haar said. “You can do CPR with a shirt on.”
I’m visualizing a courtroom reenactment wherein the defense puts a healthy man of parameters similar to George Floyd on the ground, with the foot on a man of parameters similar to the policeman on his head and neck area. The test subject will persist indefinitely proving, irrefutably, that the action of the officer could not cause the expiration of a normal healthy man. George Floyd was a disorderly and violent felon resisting arrest. Necessary means were employed by police who were lawfully, and per procedures, protecting the public and their personal safety.
We the jury find the defendants not guilty.
Thank you, Jury, for your service today. Court is adjourned.
The overall point is, or should be, that all this evidence is for the required investigation and any trial, if applicable. The months of all the violence supposedly in Floyd’s name, under the guise of BLM Marxists and Antifa thugs, does nothing to help or hurt the case against the officers charged. In fact, I’ll state the obvious that many are too cowed to say–at this point, I couldn’t care less about any supposed victims of racism. You’ve overplayed your hands.
“Supposed” is right. The actual problems facing the black population (to a degree not faced by other subpopulations) are a mess of pink elephants in the middle of the classroom, while our professional-managerial class fuss over some cockroaches on the windowsill.
Good for you DV. We’re not going to fork over whatever little we have just because of the Indians or the slaves or whatever happened centuries ago. no way. Full stop. Denied.
Just understand this is an offer of payoff for the looters and rioters, from the financiers of BLM. The reparations and so forth. The real interests aligned against Donald Trump revolve most strongly around his disruption of “free trade” in favor of the economic interests of average Americans. That’s why all the 18 mig multinational corporations are throwing even more money at BLM. They are trying to stage a color revolution to force him out.
We can’t fail to show up on November 9 with all our friends and family in lockstep and vote for Donald. Vote like your life depends on it because it probably does.
Has everyone seen the footage of what was going on prior to the police officer holding Mr. Floyd on the ground?
Has everyone watched the footage of what happened before the police officer had Mr. Floyd on the ground?
YEs it’s on RT
https://www.rt.com/usa/497006-george-floyd-leaked-bodycam-footage/
Well, there’s that old law school hypothetical. “A,” intending to commit suicide, jumps off the top of the Empire State Building. As “A” plunges to his certain death, “B” fires a shot through a window in the Empire State Building, mortally wounding “A.” “A” is dead before he hits the ground. “B” is guilty of murder or manslaughter, depending on “B’s” intent. Floyd, like “A,” was alive when he was arrested and pinned to the ground. That he may have died from an overdose of an illegal substance shortly thereafter, even if he had not been arrested and pinned to the ground, is irrelevant.
That he may have died from an overdose of an illegal substance shortly thereafter, even if he had not been arrested and pinned to the ground, is irrelevant.
Pinning someone to the ground is not fatal. I do hope you’re not practicing law.
To This is absurd x XXii: I am sorry but you are wrong. The issue of whether “pinning someone to the ground” is or is not fatal is a question of fact to be resolved by the jury, not a question of law. No doubt there will be “battling experts” as witnesses on this issue. There are numerous variables that affect that issue, including, as an example, the force of the pinning. My opinion is that for the police officer to be found guilty, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt both that Floyd died as a result of the pinning and that, under the circumstances, the pinning involved excess force by the officer.
No doubt there will be “battling experts” as witnesses on this issue.
Yes, your side will bring junk science to bear. John Edwards made himself very wealthy that way.
That neck restraint was considered safe. It does not interfere with the airway. He was clearly drugged. Some drugs make people violent; restraint was advised. He asked to be put on the ground, not in the cop car. The other two on his back and legs were restraining, too. They called EMS. Waiting. Perhaps they checked for a pulse, and, until he died, they would have found one. Was he declared dead on scene?
The other two were not there long.
There is a torts doctrine that “you take your victims as you find them,”
I find this statement to be troublesome. Was Floyd a victim? No or at least no when the police arrived. That word should not be associated with the case unless it can be proven that the police weren’t doing their lawful duty at the time they went to arrest him. People die in police custody all the time due to drugs or even natural causes but they are not victims of the police. If a physician screws up a diagnosis unintentionally that might be malpractice but it isn’t a crime. The police were not illegally confronting Floyd when they went to arrest him.
A very similar posting, yesterday — from the National Review — with some interesting comments:
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/new-documents-in-the-george-floyd-case/
Chattanooga Police Chief David Roddy said this, shortly after Floyd’s death:
“There is no need to see more video. There no need to wait to see how “it plays out”. There is no need to put a knee on someone’s neck for NINE minutes. There IS a need to DO something. If you wear a badge and you don’t have an issue with this…turn it in.”
https://twitter.com/ChiefDavidRoddy/status/1265758198608400386
Your tweet was uttered three months ago. We now know what was in the man’s bloodstream. And this yutz wasn’t dealing with this suspect, the officers on the scene were.
Said by the one who believes he has all of the answers…, but doesn’t.
Here’s the suspect resisting investigation of his illegal activity, not cooperating with the police conducting a simple Terry search for their own safety, resisting arrest, and lying in at least some of the 18 times or so over several minutes he was saying he couldnt breathe
https://www.rt.com/usa/497006-george-floyd-leaked-bodycam-footage/
how dare the Russian state owned media show us the full clip that American billionaire owned mass media won’t let us see! how dare they influence our opinions by giving us information!
‘Nation’s police widely condemn move used to restrain George Floyd’
‘”The police officer and those who were there that day failed George Floyd,” said Chuck Wexler, executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum.’
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nation-s-police-widely-condemn-move-used-restrain-george-floyd-n1218386
It’s been obvious from the very beginning – those officers were doing EXACTLY what they were supposed to do in that kind of situation. They were restraining Floyd so he couldn’t do more damage until EMS could arrive and give him the injection that counteracts the effects of the condition they believed he had. The autopsy gave the cause of death as homicide – which simply means death while in the hands of another. Floyd’s girlfriend said he was crazy. This whole thing is an unfortunate incident that has been magnified by black activists and their supporters in order to cause chaos. The Floyd family is out for a huge settlements and the attorney is looking for another big payday.
“This whole thing is an unfortunate incident that has been magnified by black activists and their supporters in order to cause chaos”
And Democrats who think they can surf chaos into power.
UH Dude, the party trying to surf chaos – it might be added in a very few places that unlike the covid virus will affect a very limited number of Americans – into power is the GOP and the “law and order” theme. This is a net loser for Democrats and the only viable path for Trump.
So a hostile criminal is threatening to shoot people he says he has captive in a room. He has the door, unbeknownst to the cops, set up to shoot a gun at himself if opened. The cops open the door to try to help the situation and it results in the gun killing the criminal and there are no captive people. The cops knew that that this was a dangerous high risk situation. So the cops are charged with murder?
If the criminal is black that might be true these days.
Your hypothetical has nothing whatsoever to do with George Floyd.
I didn’t say it did. Just asked a question.
George Floyd was a thug. Stop trying to make him out to be something he is not.
“I do not believe that these documents should not be treated as determinative evidence by the court in pre-trial motions.”
What is it with you lawyers? This is why no one understands what the hell you are saying half the time.
So, does Turley mean “I do believe that these documents should be treated as determinative evidence by the court in pre-trial motions.?
Or does he yes, not believe that they aren’t not to be unused?
The question he is posing is whether these documents are so persuasive of innocence that the case should be dismissed without a trial or whether there is still enough ambiguity that the state may still be able to prove its case and the trials should go ahead.
The trial likely will proceed no matter what because the judge is probably going to worry that anarchist mobs will burn down the courthouse if he dismisses the case. That’s where we are these days.
I agree. And if at trial, they do not get convicted we will still end up with the courthouse burned down.
That’s their unchanging bolshevik strategy. It worked so well for them in 1917 they thought they’d try it again.
Interesting defense. The man said he could not breath before the officer knelt on his neck so the officer is not guilty for murdering him! Whatever happened to the take your victim as you find them. Assuming the material discussed is true, it means that the officer knew that restricting his breathing even further would be a serious risk so he decided to put his knee on his neck for almost 9 minutes! Yea, that is really exculpatory…not!
“the officer knew that restricting his breathing even further would be a serious risk”
How do you know this?
He doesn’t. The autopsy shows no trauma and the technique was taught and approved by the police department as safe.
So the department approved kneeling on someone’s neck for almost nine minutes? Really. If so the entire department needs a good cleaning
The department is led by a black man. Saying anything about it needs cleaning means you are a racist.
Did you read the posting? “To the extent that the officers heard Floyd complaining that he could not breathe while still in the car only confirms that he had some medical emergency or condition.”
You have no way of knowing what the officer knew at the time of the incident. So criminals can in your world, spout out all types of statements and the police will have to let them go? He also apparently claimed to be claustrophobic only after getting out of his car and when the police try to put him in the back of the theirs.
Can you explain for me why there is no discussion of the forensic toxicology report that should have been completed 7 to 9-weeks ago on George Floyd? ANYWHERE. At a maximum the report takes 6-weeks as it did in the death of Prince. It is the source of whether or not George Floyd had taken a lethal dose. If George Floyd were a celebrity there would be non-stop discussion of this on E! and the like. Let’s see what the report has to say.
The man said he could not breath before the officer knelt on his neck so the officer is not guilty for murdering him!
The officer knelt on the back of his neck and his airway was unobstructed. The autopsy report makes clear his trachea and hyeloid bone were uninjured and there were no contusions on the neck.
hyoid, not “hyeloid”
Having practiced criminal law and having worked for the FOP as a defense attorney, a murder conviction in this case is no slam dunk, and frankly, the prosecution will do well to obtain a manslaughter conviction. Reasonable doubt as to the cause of death exists, and a competent criminal defense attorney will raise it in the juror’s minds.
Floyd was already in the back seat of the police vehicle. Chauvin came in last, after Floyd had been taken into custody. Cauvin pulled Floyd out of the back seat of the vehicle, threw him to the ground, held him down with a knee to the neck, until he died. Floyd, being under the influence has no bearing on his death other than Chauvin put the ‘last bullet in the body’, the one that killed Floyd. The other officers did nothing to stop the unnecessary restraining of Floyd, who had already been placed in custody, in the back seat of the car. Chauvin went berserk. The other officers permitted this. Manslaughter at the minimum, twenty years for Chauvin and five each for the others. Murder is a stretch. If that idiot prosecutor in Florida had charged the killer Zimmerman with manslaughter he’d be where he belongs in the slammer, twenty years. Accurate, appropriate, means justice.
“Floyd was already in the back seat of the police vehicle.”
No, he was not in the back seat of the squad car. Floyd was pulled out of his car, and then he “actively resisted being handcuffed”.
“George Floyd timeline: The FULL events that led to George Floyd arrest and death”
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1290302/George-Floyd-timeline-arrest-death-USA-protests-Black-Lives-Matter
“Once Mr Floyd had been handcuffed, Mr Floyd complied with police while Mr Lane explained he was being arrested for “passing counterfeit currency”.
At 8.14pm, a struggle ensued as officers tried to put Mr Floyd into their car.
Mr Floyd told officers he was claustrophobic, then fell to the floor and stiffened up.
Mr Chauvin then arrived at the scene and there was another attempt to get Mr Floyd into the car.
At 8.19pm Mr Chauvin pulled Mr Floyd away from the car and onto the floor, where he lay face down still in handcuffs.”
So Floyd fvcked up big time by resisting arrest, twice. Then Chauvin fvcked up big time by 1st placing, then keeping, his foot on the back of Floyd’s neck for too long a period of time. Which further exacerbated Floyd’s pre-existing conditions.
Your lies only make this worse, Issac.
In the video, Chauvin shows up when Floyd is being placed/forced into the back seat of the police car. Floyd may have been resisting but he was not aggressively endangering anyone. Floyd was in handcuffs. Chauvin is seen pulling him through the car to the ground and kneeling on his neck. There was no need for this, whatsoever. In order to be pulled from one side of the backseat to the other and out onto the ground, Floyd was contained in the car. He could have been left there. Floyd, regardless of his wailing and pleading was in the backseat. There was no need whatsoever to contain Floyd as it was done, on the ground, knee on neck for 8+ minutes. Floyd was handcuffed and almost incapacitated. The video shows Floyd being pulled through the back seat, then out and onto the ground. Chauvin killed Floyd irrespective of what had gone on before or what Floyd had in his system.
Chauvin is shown showing up last, surveilling the situation, and then going straight to do what he did. Chauvin took charge. Floyd could have been left in the back seat, handcuffed, restrained.
Floyd wiggled out of the back seat. watch it again. he was a big strong man like that other fellow, remember, whatsisname? Oh, Rodney King
https://www.rt.com/usa/497006-george-floyd-leaked-bodycam-footage/
Rodney King, took a tasing and a beating and kept on fighting. Tremendous vitality! Poor George Floyd was strong but the dope took him down. So blame the cops.
It seems from most of the comments, that many have never practiced criminal law. Of course the documents will be used and very useful, to show that there is no evidence “beyond and to the exclusion of a reasonable doubt” that the officers murdered George Floyd. It is clear from the pictures of the knee on the neck that Floyd was treated brutally, but the defense to a murder charge is obvious and unless the jury is already so biased that this exculpatory evidence is ignored, there will be no conviction for murder.
Judge – “Of course the documents will be used and very useful, to show that there is no evidence”
Probably true unless a politicized judge grants a motion in limine.
The man was already restrained. What other motive could there be for pulling him out of the car and kneeling on his neck for almost 9 minutes. The officer intended to do bodily harm that resulted in death. Was it premeditated? Yes. Premeditation doesn’t require days or even hours minutes are enough.
There can’t be any reasonable doubt here but I do agree that a biased juror will no doubt desire to protect the police and blame the victim. Of course isn’t that really what the protests are about the brutal uneven application of the “law” that excuses murder by the police.
“What other motive could there be for pulling him out of the car and kneeling on his neck for almost 9 minutes.” Oh, ye of little imagination.
Floyd asked to be taken out of the car due to “claustrophobia.” So they complied and restrained him with a known-to-be-safe department-recommended side neck restraint which does not constrict the airway. The called EMS. They took about 9 minutes to get there.
Horse apples. Floyd asked to be taken out of the car so they took him out… Floyd protested going into the car but they put him in. The safest place for Floyd where he could do no damage to himself or others was in the back seat cage, hands cuffed behind him, unable to flail, kick, or head butt anyone. The back seat of a police vehicle is a jail cell. The only reasonable reason Chauvin would have dragged Floyd out and kneel on his neck was to ‘teach him a lesson.’ There was a degree of meanness here, irrespective of the condition of Floyd. Chauvin knew Floyd as they worked night clubs together as bouncers. Chauvin had to be reprimanded several times by one club’s owner for being too rough with patrons and sometimes pepper spraying them. In the video when one passer by admonishes Chauvin for continuing to kneel on a lifeless Floyd, he goes for his pepper spray as a warning to the passer by. Watch the video carefully and you have a cop who has a streak of meanness that cost a man his life. Chauvin also, had a history of overstepping his police authority, 19 times. The way the police union controls the representation of an officer up on charges is that that officer’s previous behavior is not to affect the issue of the moment. In other words Chauvin was a festering sore infecting the police department and resulted in what is clearly going on in the video. It’s this sort of sweeping under the rug that is causing the riots as well as Blacks getting singled out.
It is clear from the pictures of the knee on the neck that Floyd was treated brutally,
He wasn’t treated brutally at all, except in your imagination. He was restrained according to spec and the restraint he was put under was consquent to his refusal to sit quietly in the car. I do hope you’re not practicing law.
I have seen innumerable people killed in movies and on television. I only know the name of one who actually died in the filming – Vic Morrow.
From the autopsy report … “NECK: Layer by layer dissection of the anterior strap muscles of the neck discloses no areas of contusion or hemorrhage within
the musculature. The thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone are intact. The larynx is lined by intact mucosa. The thyroid is symmetric and red-brown, without cystic or nodular change. The tongue is free of bite marks, hemorrhage, or other injuries. The cervical spinal column is palpably stable and free of hemorrhage.”
Clearly this rule should apply to a choke hold: “The eggshell skull rule—also called the thin skull rule—says that you take your victim as you find them. Essentially, the frailty of the person who was injured cannot be used as a defense to limit the liability of the at-fault party. … The defendant cannot rely on the victim’s vulnerability to avoid liability.”
Officer Lane’s attorney has offered video to the court that seems to show Floyd with a fentanyl tab on his tongue and then a few moments later it disappears. This occurs while Floyd is still in his car. The cops treat Floyd with the care required for Excited Delirium. And the knee is on the muscle of Floyd’s neck, which he is able to raise. Cauvin is not cutting off his wind.
Literally, George Floyd killed himself.
“Police keep using ‘excited delirium’ to justify brutality. It’s junk science.”
“The “diagnosis” misappropriates medical terminology to shield officers from accountability.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/chokehold-police-excited-delirium/2020/07/17/fe907ec8-c6bc-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html
Subjects on PCP (and other drugs) are known to turn violent in a moment. Shall we give this violence a label? Excited Delirium is not perfect, what shall we call this? Drug-induced Violence?
If I remember correctly, Floyd said he couldn’t breathe 16 times. Many of those were when Chauvin supposed was cutting his oxygen off.
How was he talking if couldn’t breath?
He can’t. Medical people will sometimes ask someone if he can breathe. If he says ‘No’ then he can breathe. If he can’t answer time to go to work fast and clear the passage or initiate other appropriate treatment.
‘Screaming Their Last Breath: Why First Responders Must Never Ignore the Words “I Can’t Breathe”’
by Steve Cole, NRP, FTO, and a training captain with the Ada County Paramedics.
https://www.calibrepress.com/2020/06/screaming-their-last-breath-why-first-responders-must-never-ignore-the-words-i-cant-breathe/
First responders focus on the medical condition. They are called by the persons involved so their “guidelines” are different than those of a police officer about to arrest a known criminal.
The police are trained in how to respond:
“Police training expert speaks about fatal Minneapolis incident”
https://kstp.com/news/police-training-expert-speak-on-fatal-minneapolis-incident-may-26-2020/5741911/
“As soon as you hear somebody can’t breathe, you need to ask for medical attention, change your positioning change to see what’s going on,” Masson said.
Masson said MPD also does not typically teach the “knee on neck” technique and instead teaches “knee into shoulder blades” as a restraint tactic.
The video appears to show the officer’s knee on Floyd’s neck for at least seven minutes until an ambulance arrives.
“Always when you’re using force, you only want to use it until you need to stop the threat,” Masson said. “If he’s not moving anymore, he’s not resisting, then you let up totally. And if somebody is complaining that you should check for a pulse, I certainly would check for a pulse.”
5 EYEWITNESS NEWS also asked about the responsibility of the second officer in the video, who is seen standing nearby. Masson said he should have intervened or suggested his partner use a different tactic.
“I see the other officer doing nothing, just standing there,” Masson said.
Police are not all trained in the exact same fashion. I presume that each depart provides specific rules based on the types of threats most common.
I think most agree the actions of the police should be criticized but that is not the question. We probably all say that the officers did a bad job.
The question is what caused Floyd’s death? That is not what the article is about.
We probably all say that the officers did a bad job.
I don’t have any reason to think they did a bad job. If there was an act or omission of public authorities which contributed the most, it was the frigging ambulance driver, who got lost on the way there.
“I don’t have any reason to think they did a bad job. ”
You don’t think so? The officer had his foot on Floyd’s neck for a prolonged period. That may have done no harm but in that period of time another officer couldn’t find a pulse and there were questions raised as to his breathing yet the restraint on Floyd remained unchanged.
“That is not what the article is about.” So says Allan.
??
““That is not what the article is about.” So says Allan.”
Anonymous you seem to have a hard time focusing in on the subject. The article was dealing with tangential issues but did not deal with the actual cause of death. If you think differently then copy the paragraph that provides us with a cause of death that can be used in court.
The officer had his foot on Floyd’s neck for a prolonged period. That may have done no harm but in that period of time another officer couldn’t find a pulse and there were questions raised as to his breathing yet the restraint on Floyd remained unchanged.
His knee. And, again, his airway was unobstructed. They’d called an ambulance, which took an excess amount of time to arrive because the driver got lost.
DSS, you are neglecting the time during which a fellow officer couldn’t find a pulse and it looked like he wasn’t breathing. With the knee or foot Chauvin should have been able to tell if the struggle was over. I am not saying his actions were the cause of death rather I am saying that his actions appeared bad. If indeed Floyd was in trouble during this time period, and it seems he was, then Chauvin’s role shifts from an officer trying to restrain a man to an officer offering aid.
Excerpt from the aforementioned article:
“What actions should an officer take when this happens? Well, that’s a complex question dependent on the circumstances. I offer the following suggestions.
· Never ignore the statement. One should treat it like a “medical threat cue,” sometimes serious and sometimes not, but always considered.
· Make sure the subject is in a position to maximize his tidal volume. Is he sitting up or on his side? A subject should never be left prone.
· Strongly consider having the patient checked out by your local EMS. Decrease his stress, struggle, and oxygen demand by allowing/coaching him to calm down while you wait.
· What does your agency policy say? Does it address this?
Conclusion
Please do not pass on this myth to your trainees. It’s a flawed assumption that, while rare, can have potentially life threatening and career ending results.
Understanding a little bit of respiratory physiology will help you, the LEO, avoid potentially catastrophic pitfalls, and help you have a long career in this field. It will also benefit your agency. The subject, while he or she may not thank you, will certainly appreciate it as well.
I know that LEO’s do a difficult job, and I hope this article provides you with a few tools to do that job a little bit better.
Jim, it’s a matter of how bad things are at the time. I believe Fentanyl will cause a rapid increase in shortness of breath due to increasing fluid in the lungs to the point where a person might die. The question is was whether or not the amount of Fentanyl taken required a ventillator for the person to breathe. The lungs I believe were heavy so they were filled with fluid preventing oxygen from being able to adequately enter Floyd’s body.
Aside from the optics the mistake of the officers might have been that their “clinical diagnosis” was wrong. They could have rightfully thought he was uncooperative and/or a bit crazy when the right diagnosis was that he had congestive heart failure and his lungs were filling up fast to the point that he would soon be dead. If the latter was the case then likely Floyd was doomed when the cops picked him up unless he was given an antidote. I think physicians face a similar problem and sometimes make the wrong diagnosis leading to death
Below is a video of a person in congestive heart failure and talking. Floyd’s time clock seems to have been possibly been moving very fast from mild to severe heart failure to death in a matter of minutes.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=video+of+a+person+in+congestive+heart+failure+talking&t=osx&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DvG_pUr9VFuo
He was a ventriloquist.
i watched the whole clip again yesterday including before they pushed him in the car and after he wiggled out. he was saying i cant breathe the whole time long before they had the knee on the neck. they probably figured he was lying. he was chattering lively the whole time. said he had claustrophobia. he also said he was hooping. i thought that was strange. in jail hooping drugs means stuffing them up your backside to hide them from guards. in context maybe he was telling them he had just been snorting h or whatever. I am not an expert in “ebonics.,” but that Geoge was quit the talker. amazing flow of words for a guy who couldnt breathe.
bystander told the cops he’d been shot before. well, that probably didn’t help george once the cops knew he’d been shot once already.
https://www.rt.com/usa/497006-george-floyd-leaked-bodycam-footage/
Russa tv gleefully shares this with the public, happily giving more grist for the mill to all of the above. One wonders if the fools who’ve been proclaiming themselves experts in Russian influence operations understand how it actually works yet or not. I suspect the method is very simple. Project whatever will divide and disrupt us, they are putting it out there.
Just as happily as the flunkies at CNN and Wapoo working for the global billionaires will project whatever enflames folks. They’re as bad a foe to our people as the Russian spooks are, if not worse
but go ahead and watch the whole thing and tell me if it seems like George was having a hard time breathing when he said he was the first ten times or so, a time when he was profusely
jibber jabbering in the several minutes before they finally put the knee on the neck. If im on that jury I acquit. Sorry, I dont like the neck hold tactic, but if it was SOP then how can you blame the cop for using it; and if he may have croaked from drug induced heart failure, maybe he was already dead, and the negligence if any was inconsequential. I see a big reasonable doubt potentially provable to the jury if they are unbiased and protected from jury intimidation by the BLM mobs.
Of course that last one’s a big if, we all know.
However, the documents in my view do not conclusively establish that the drug use was the cause of the death.
Do a literature review, professor. The level of fentanyl in his femoral blood (11 nanograms per cc) is a mid-range value for overdose deaths. NB, that’s the femoral blood, so the fentanyl had already been metabolized and spread all about his very large corpus. In a just world, anyone asserting he died of something other than fentanyl intoxication better have a bloody good explanation of what that might be.
Of course, we don’t live in a just world. We live in a world dominated by pettifoggers, frauds, and sociopaths.
“In a just world, anyone asserting he died of something other than fentanyl intoxication better have a bloody good explanation of what that might be.”
Yeah, better get Sherlock on this one because no one has any idea what else it could be.
Book– no one has any idea what else it could be.
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Covid is said to sometimes cause death.
Cardiac problems and arthrosclerosis can lead to death.
Complications from hypertension and diabetes can lead to death.
The question isn’t so much why he died but why he even was alive–practically a zombie.
Yeah, better get Sherlock on this one because no one has any idea what else it could be.
His trachea and hyeloid bone were uninjured. No one actually does have any idea.
Turley–However, the documents in my view do not conclusively establish that the drug use was the cause of the death.
Of course the defense does not have to prove conclusively that drug use caused Floyd’s death.
It is up to the prosecution to make conclusive proofs to the contrary..
The ‘do not conclusively prove’ formulation is an example of what it is that induces people to despise lawyers. The man had no neck trauma.