Be Careful With The 25th Amendment

Below is my column in USA Today on the call to use the 25th Amendment to “remove” President Donald Trump. As a threshold matter, the 25th Amendment does not “remove” a president but rather shifts his powers to the Vice President. The only method for removal of a president from office is impeachment. The 25th Amendment refers to the Vice President as “acting” in his capacity.  However, “removal” is a common way of expressing the substitution under the 25th Amendment. The main problem is not the nomenclature but the standard. Section 4 actions under the amendment are designed for physical or mental incapacities. Such evidence may exist but it has not been disclosed. Vice President Mike Pence would need to disclose such evidence of mental illness or irrationality in the President. The speech alone is not a basis for a 25th Amendment “removal.”

This week, Speaker Nancy Pelosi is continuing to call for the invocation of the 25th Amendment or impeachment as alternative courses of action.  She and others have expressed a preference for the 25th Amendment due to the limited time remaining before President Trump leaves office.  However, neither time nor the text for a 25th Amendment action is supportive in this effort. More importantly, without such clear evidence of mental incapacity, the use of the 25th Amendment could introduce even greater instability in our system.

Here is the column:

Herman Wouk’s novel “The Caine Mutiny” is an American classic of the effort by a crew to remove a mentally unstable captain. Even before the riot in Congress, the movie came to mind as President Donald Trump was delivering an unhinged diatribe blocks away on how the election was stolen. If you replaced the word “election” with “strawberries,” you had the speech of Captain Philip Francis Queeg in the novel. However, now there are reportedly some within the administration who want to push for a type of twilight removal under the 25th Amendment.

The problem is the same as the one identified in “The Caine Mutiny”: “Remember this, if you can — there is nothing, nothing more precious than time. You probably feel you have a measureless supply of it, but you haven’t.”

This is not the first time that the 25th Amendment has been raised. Almost immediately after his inauguration, Democrats and the media called for the removal of Trump through impeachment or the 25th Amendment. Various liberal psychologists held forth on alleged mental illness without the benefit of any examination. 

The animosity toward Trump led to the abandonment of the “Goldwater Rule.” The American Psychiatric Association adopted the rule to deter doctors from making unethical diagnoses of individuals without evaluating them. The cause for the rule was a disgraceful campaign featuring psychiatrists who claimed that Barry Goldwater was mentally ill to influence the election against President Lyndon Johnson.

The danger of such claims is manifestly obvious. The 25th Amendment was primarily designed for physical disabilities of a president. It is astonishing that there remained a glaring uncertainty in our Constitution until 1967 on how to handle a president suffering from an incapacity.

It was not something that the Framers did not contemplate. The issue was raised in the Constitutional Convention in 1787 by Delegate John Dickinson of Delaware, but it was left unaddressed. The issue still remained unaddressed when President William Henry Harrison died a month after taking office. It was not until President Dwight Eisenhower suffered a stroke that serious efforts were made toward an amendment — a move that accelerated after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

Various presidents have used the amendment to temporarily transfer power during surgeries or brief incapacities. The nuclear option, under Section 4, has never been used.

To do so with a perceived mental disability is a particular concern. As shown by the Goldwater controversy, there are always psychiatrists willing and eager to declare a president insane even from a distance. Politicians often portray their opponents as mentally unbalanced since only an insane person would hold an opposing view some issues. If we were to remove a president on such a basis, it could open the floodgates for such removals in the future.

Democrats have vividly shown this danger with calls for impeachment for issues ranging from Trump’s criticism of the NFL kneelers to his tweets. The same could be true with the 25th Amendment.

The 25th Amendment is designed to address constitutional, not character, flaws. Trump’s speech Wednesday was not just unpresidential but reckless. He actively encouraged the protesters to march on Congress, and the speech was timed to end just before the proceedings in the joint session to count electoral votes.

Trump was preceded by his son, Donald Jr., who whipped the crowd into a frenzy with such lines as, “If you’re gonna be the zero and not the hero, we’re coming for you and we’re going to have a good time doing it.” Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani declared that it was time for “trial by combat.” It was a shameful and inciteful display.

However, Trump’s speech alone is not evidence of incapacity or insanity. Being obnoxious and narcissistic is not grounds for removal. Indeed, such a standard would leave much of Washington vacant.

Even if there were evidence to support such a move, it would result in a likely removal for just four days. Under Section 4, Vice President Mike Pence and a majority of the Cabinet can sign a declaration to Congress that Trump is incapable of holding office. In such a highly unlikely circumstance, Pence would immediately assume power. However, Trump would have four days to object. In that case, Pence and the Cabinet would have to send a second declaration. The Congress would then have to vote by two-thirds vote to remove the president. That is, both chambers (unlike impeachment, which only requires a two-third vote on the Senate). Congress has 21 days for that vote, but for Trump, it would have to happen virtually immediately to beat the natural end of his presidency. Congress can also create a body to make such a finding of disability, but that would likely take even more time.

Of course, if Congress can secure a second declaration from Pence, it could run out the clock on the vote and leave Trump in constitutional quarantine until Jan. 20. The vote would then become moot.

Yet, what would be achieved? Trump has already pledged an orderly transfer of power to President-elect Joe Biden. In order to impose this ignoble moment on Trump, the Congress would create precedent for future such removals on ill-defined mental disabilities. If it wanted to do this, it should have moved years ago.

As stated in “The Caine Mutiny,” “wasted hours destroy your life just as surely at the beginning as at the end — only in the end it becomes more obvious.” For naval mutinies and presidential removals, there is nothing more precious or flitting than time.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University and a member of USA TODAY’s Board of Contributors. Follow him on Twitter: @JonathanTurley

176 thoughts on “Be Careful With The 25th Amendment”

  1. Turley laughably insists Trump’s inflammatory rhetoric over the past 2 months about winning the election in a landslide due to massive voter fraud isn’t evidence of incitement to commit violence. JT predictably ignores that Georgia Republican Gabriel Sterling made an impassioned plea about Georgia state election officials receiving death threats after Trump & his attorneys kept making indisputably false claims about voter fraud in their state. Last month Sterling issued a direct warning to Trump: “Stop inspiring people to commit potential acts of violence. Someone is going to get hurt, someone is going to get shot, someone is going to get killed. And it’s not right.”

    So what was Trump’s reaction to the violence at the Capitol as our elected representatives were rushed to safety? White House aides told Ben Sasse that Trump was delighted by the chaos caused by his supporters. Sasse said Trump was confused why other people on his team weren’t as excited as he was about his supporters storming into the Capitol. This was just after Trump publicly berated Pence for “not having the courage” to overthrow the election.

    Now we know why White House aides & advisers resigned shortly afterward. Yet here’s Turley saying “Nothing to see here. Move along.”

    Unsurprisingly, JT awards himself the final word on what constitutes incitement to violence to conservative law professors.

    1. RacePace7:

      “Turley laughably insists Trump’s inflammatory rhetoric over the past 2 months about winning the election in a landslide due to massive voter fraud isn’t evidence of incitement to commit violence.”
      Probably ’cause it’s not. Do you have a law degree and reputation as a Constitutional scholar? Turley does.

      1. mespo727272, Gabriel Sterling is a lifelong Republican who voted for Trump. He is extremely angered by the death threats Georgia’s Republican Secretary of State & his wife & other election officials began receiving after Trump called Raffensperger “the enemy of the people” for verifying Biden won Georgia in a free & fair election. Sterling warned Trump to “stop inspiring people to commit potential acts of violence.”

        2 recounts of every balot in Georgia confirmed Biden’s victory in Georgia yet Trump demanded that Georgia’s governor resign, pressured Georgia Republicans to announce him as the winner & forced Georgia’s Federal Prosecutor to resign. Death threats continued to be made against Georgia officials who verified Biden’s victory.

        Last week, Bill Barr called Trump’s conduct as the Capitol riots unfolded “a betrayal of his office and supporters…Orchestrating a mob to pressure Congress is inexcusable.” Five Republican Congress members want Trump removed from office for his role in inciting the takeover of the Capitol in an effort to stop Congress from certifiying Biden’s Electoral College victory

        Thanks for your input, mespo.

        1. Your election corruption begins with not accomplishing the election per the verbatim law on Tuesday, one day, a 24-hour period, corruptible vote-by-mail, voters not appearing at a polling place to be identified and certified and deploying “harvesters” to roam the countryside in search of votes. Your corruption concludes with the insanity of processing elections with hackable and biased (by programing) computers in foreign countries.

          You have got to be ——- kidding me!

          Either you have calculated that all this election variation/corruption will obtain the results you desire and you are deliberately prevaricating, or you truly cannot see the forest for the trees.

          “Why Do Most Countries Ban Mail-In Ballots?: They Have Seen Massive Vote Fraud Problems”

          152 Pages Posted: 9 Aug 2020 Last revised: 8 Dec 2020
          John R. Lott

          US Department of Justice

          Date Written: August 3, 2020

          Thirty-seven states have so far changed their mail-in voting procedures this year in response to the Coronavirus. Despite frequent claims that President Trump’s warning about vote fraud/voting buying with mail-in ballots is “baselessly” or “without evidence” about mail-in vote fraud, there are numerous examples of vote fraud and vote buying with mail-in ballots in the United States and across the world. Indeed, concerns over vote fraud and vote buying with mail-in ballots causes the vast majority of countries to ban mail-in voting unless the citizen is living abroad.

          There are fraud problems with mail-in absentee ballots but the problems with universal mail-in ballots are much more significant. Still most countries ban even absentee ballots for people living in their countries.

          Most developed countries ban absentee ballots unless the citizen is living abroad or require Photo-IDs to obtain those ballots. Even higher percentages of European Union or other European countries ban absentee for in country voters. In addition, some countries that allow voting by mail for citizens living the country don’t allow it for everyone. For example, Japan and Poland have limited mail-in voting to those who have special certificates verifying that they are disabled.

          France has made an exception this year to the ban on absentee ballots to those who are sick or at particular risk during the Coronavirus pandemic. Poland and two cities in Russia have adopted mail-in ballots for elections this year only, but most countries haven’t changed their regulations.

          France banned absentee voting in 1975 because of massive fraud in Corsica, where postal ballots were stolen or bought and voters cast multiple votes. Mail-in ballots were used to cast the votes of dead people. Examples for other countries are provided.

          – Social Science Network Research

        2. The NFL has comprehensive scrutiny of every second of every game and up to 400,000,000 eyes on the Superbowl for every second of 60 minutes of playing time.

          The NFL has “Instant Replay.”

          The NFL, the legitimate, professional, solemn and staid organization, has definitive and absolute transparency and justice regarding its product.

          Republicans asked for a hearing of the evidence related to election fraud, corruption and tampering.

          Justice was denied.

          Communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) were compelled to cover-up the crimes of defrauding and corrupting the 2020 election and tampering with vote counts.

          You are a fraud devoted to crime including the crimes of destruction, alteration, falsification and spoliation of evidence, obstruction of justice and malicious dereliction of duty.

        3. No one should be sending death threats to anyone.

          Conservatives receive far more death threats from left wingnuts than anyone.

          Trump demanding an investigation of election fraud is not invitement.

          All reffensburger needed to do was his job and honor his promise.

          NO GA Did not had recount the ballots – not once much less twice.

          They machine recounted the post adjudication scans.

          Please review the testimony to the GA legislature on this.

          The claim that GA did an actual hand recount of paper ballots is a lie – and that is why Raffensberger is receiving death threats – he promised that and did not deliver.

          He further promissed a full independent audit of signature verification. Instead he did a partial not independent audit of Cobb county – the least likely county to have significant signature errors or mailin fraud.

          We have this problem all over. If you want to be trusted – you can not lie. If you make a promise – keep it, or do not make it in the first place.

          BTW the Cobb county signature audit found that about 6% of ballots would have been rejected in a normal election without “curing”.
          A 6% rejection rate state wide would have resulted in a Trump victory in GA.

          But it is widely expected that the rejection rate in Cobb county is near the lowest in GA and Fulton would be the highest – nearly double Cobb. A 10% rejection rate in Fulton county alone would throw the election to Trump by a significant margin.

          GA is a voter ID state – signature matching is a requirement of the law. As well as address, and drivers license matching,
          If you do not like it – change the law.

          As noted previously – these elections were lawless.

        4. Look I like Barr but his understanding of history is absymal.

          Public preasure on congress is a part of our history.

          Or are you forgetting the riots all summer. One of the demand of BLM was getting rid of Qualified imuminty – a demand i fully support.
          Are you forgeting the left storming the capital over Kavanaugh ? Protestors invades senators offices and several changes their vote.

    2. So you are upset by Trump’s remarks.

      Get over it – it is called free speech
      But then we know you do not believe in that.

      If you want people to trust the results of the election – you should have conducted a lawful election – not gone lawless.

      Every election has fraud. Pretending there is none is idiocy.
      The extent of fraud in this election – I do not know that. There are many claims of fraud – which is not the same as lawlessness.
      Lawlessness is a fact. And the real lawlessness bolsters the fraud claim.
      It is also why you are getting little traction with people court decisions.
      The courts allowed the lawlessness in the election. In doing so they lost the trust of the people.

      And that is the big problem here.

      You are not entitled to peoples votes, and you are not entitled to peoples trust.
      You must earn that.

      People do not trust this election.
      You keep pretending that trust is automatic.
      It is not.
      Court decisions do not restore trust – if the people do not trust the courts.
      Your wish that they would – does not change anything.

      As I said – you are not entitled to peoples trust – you must earn it.
      And without it you do not have legitimacy.

      You spent 4 years challenging Trump’s legitimacy over a bogus claim that was pure idiocy.
      There is someone here posting a probably similarly weak claim of foreign interference.
      You understood who you refused to accept that Trump had won legitimately that you were undermining Trump’s legitimacy
      Which you were. Trump was not entitled to your trust. Trump’s election was not entitled to your trust.
      If Hillary thought it was the consequence of Fraud she was free to challenge it – and in several states she did.
      Clinton also manage to get REAL recounts, as opposed to the fake one that GA did.

      If you want those that do not trust the election to do so.
      Do the right thing – actually investigate.
      And for gods sake do not repeat this lawless election ever again.

      If you do not fix this crap by 2022 you are going to have massive fraud and a holy war.

      If you can not figure out how easy it would be to thoroughly distrupt the entire election
      if it is conducted like this again – you are a complete idiot.

      And in 2022 you face a more serious problem. In 2020 people knew Mailin elections were highly subject to fraud.
      In 2024 they will know exactly how, and how to use that fraud. And it will be far easier for republicans to gum up democrats that the other way arround.

      The US has a long long checkered history of election fraud.
      The constitutional provisions that you violated were there specifically because of massive fraud in the 19th century.

    3. Incitement to violence and the first amendment limits were determined LONG AGO by the courts.
      Trump’s remarks are so far way they do not even get into the grey areas.

      Your fears do not constitute evidence.

      you spent all summer claiming that violence in protests was acceptable.

      If Trump had specifically asked his supported to go to the Capital and go to the Senators and representatives offices and “get in their faces”. He would be parroting Obama – as well as many democrats during the kavanaugh hearings.

      As to broken windows at the capital – why was it locked ?
      During the kavanaugh hearings protestors had no problems getting to Senators offices, to hearing rooms.

      We have have government of the people, by the people, for the people.

      The fear of senators and representatives is not justification for isolating themselves from the prols.

      Representatives are answerable to their constituents.

      While they are entitled to protection from actual violence – there is no protection from the fear of violence.

      Protestors pushed past capital police to get to senators and represenatives that Owed them a hearing.

      The capital is not for the most part private.

      As those on the left have chanted myriads of times “Whose house, Our House!”

        1. “Jesus John say, you definitely are off your rocker. Nothing you have said is actually true.”

          Be specific. One of us is wrong. You are making the accusation – the burden is on you

  2. Although I fully disagree with you on whether trump has pledged a peaceful transfer of power to Biden (he may’ve done it though on a hostage tape, unconvincingly). I tend to agree with you on the 25th, Turley. In fact, I wonder whether the 25th should be scrapped and re written. Not because there haven’t been instances where it should’ve beenused. There have been several times in trump’s presidency. And the fact it wasn’t used, repubs carrying water for him, etc. has turned it into somewhat of a joke.

    I’m more in favor of impeaching trump a second time and holding the articles for a hundred days. And additionally removing the OLC guidelines on non indictment of sitting presidents.

    Really curious to know what you’re going to say when Floptop calls wanting you to represent him in this next impeachment…

    Elvis Bug

    1. Impeachment is the way to go. If he’s not impeached, I understand he will enjoy a substantial pension well as a travel budget of $1 million a year and Secret Service protection and all that entails. He needs to be cut off from any public benefits. It needs to be done now.

      What will Turley do if he calls? He’ll say yes and tell us we should hail him as a hero. It’s sad, really. I used to think the professor was committed to the law but he’s appears to be committed to something very different.

      1. JH:

        “I used to think the professor was committed to the law but he’s appears to be committed to something very different.”

        Common sense? Good judgment? Both.

      2. And no one deserves that travel budget, pension and ability to run again taken away more than Trump.

        Elvis Bug

        1. So change the law – that is far easier.

          If you beleive Trump committed a crime – prosecute.
          The OLC oppinion does not prevent the prosecution of a former president for acts in office.

          If you beleive that Biden won the election – there is no basis for precluding Trump from running again.
          The only reason you would do so is fear that he will win.
          And that means you have no trust in your own victory.

          If you beleive Biden beat Trump – then you should WANT Trump to run in 2024.

          I do not actually expect that will happen. But I think the threat is quite useful.

          1. “If you beleive Trump committed a crime – prosecute.”

            And in a little more than a week we will reach the point where that can happen.

            Elvis Bug

            1. I doubt it.
              But I hope you do.

              I hope you keep Trump in the news for the next 4 years.

              Nothing would undermine Biden more.

      3. You are really worried that Trump will continue to receive his sallary and Travel Budget ? Secret Service ?

        Then change the law. I will be happy to join you in cutting the retirment for all elected officials. In fact accross the board it should be eliminated or reduced to subsistance levels.

        Public services is just that – service. it is not for profit – whether you are Trump or Biden or Pelosi.

        Oh, I am sorry – apparently it is for profit if you are Biden and Pelosi.

        Turley is committed to the law – as are myriads of other actual liberals – and you are losing them all over the place.

    2. The 25th amendment is perfectly fine the way it is. It is not and never was intended as a means to remove a president.
      Actual removal under the 25th is harder than impeachment.

      It was primarly intended as a means of dealing with an incapcitated president.

      One who has had a stroke, or who is do to illness or other issue temporarily unable to perform the duties of president.

      There has NEVER during the trump presidency been a time it would have applied.

      Though it is possible that it will actually be used during the Biden presidency.

      Regardless, it is NOT a partisan political tool – and it was never intended to be.

      If you wish to remove the president – you impeach him.

      Impeaching Trump at this moment is unbeleivably stupid.

      It is a near open admission that you beleive Trump won the election.

      Trump will be out of office in 10 days no matter what.

      If you actually beleive that Trump lost the election – then you should have zero fear that he could win in 2024.
      You should be Hoping that Trump is the republican candidate.

      Any effort to impeach Trump will be taken by large numbers of people as FEAR – and confirmation that even democrats do not beleive they legitimately won the election.

      The best way to deal with Trump and his supporters is to govern well. Of course the odds and your own idelogy are against you.

  3. “On Sunday, Colorado congressman Jason Crow spoke to Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy, who indicated the army was investigating 25 people who participated in the putsch, some of whom might be active military. According to a read-out of the conversation provided by Crow’s office, the congressman “Crow raised grave concerns about reports that active duty and reserve military members were involved in the insurrection. He requested expedited investigations and court martials against those involved.” Crow further requested that troops assigned to Joe Biden’s inauguration on January 20 undergo a CID [Criminal Investigation Command] review to weed out troops “sympathetic to domestic terrorists.””

    1. “Flynn called for Trump to use the military to force new elections in swing states “at gunpoint.” Wilkerson noted that the military had the power punish Flynn even after Trump’s pardon. “Were I the secretary of defense I’d call him back to duty which is in the prerogative of the secretary of defense, and I’d court-martial him,” Wilkerson said. “At a minimum, I’d cite him for incitement to insurrection.” Wilkerson’s argument applies not just to Flynn, who is an advocate of insurrection, but to those retired military personnel who stormed congress.”

      1. Please provide actual Flynn quotes – I am not interested in this garbage spin from idiots like you.

        BTW I am aware of what Flynn actually said – and he should not have. But it was NOT what you claim.

        Flynn is to be forgiven is you left wing nut idiots spent the past 4 years lying and ruining his life – everyone involved in the Flynn persecutions should be in jail right now, and Flynn should receive a Billion from the US government in compensation for the vile things done to him.

        It is forgiveable that Flynn is not especially trusting of you – because you behaved vilely and repugnantly to him.

        And your idiot Wilkerson is WRONG.

        While the Sec Def MIGHT be able to recall him. They could not then proscute him within the military for actions he took as a civilian.
        The same is true of your idiotic claim about other retired military.

        But PLEASE go ahead and do something this stupid.

        You will not have to purge the military of those not sympathetic to nutbar democrats – they will all resign.

        You really do not understand how angry millions of people are about what you did to Flynn.

        Just to be clear – you can not recall NCO’s and enlisted men when they retire under any circumstances – you would have to draft them.

        And it is not trivial to recall retired military – you can not do so purely for the purpose of disciplining them

        But Go ahead Try this stupid $hit.

        You spent 4 years talking about the bat$hit crazy things you thought Trump would do – none of which ever happened.

        Now you are talking about the bat$hit crazy things you want to do.

        Keep Talking PLEASE.

        Better still ACT!

        You have not seen an actual insurection – but pull the stupid $hit you are pushing and you will.

        You are quite stupid – you still do not understand – you have a plurality that beleive the election was stolen.

        You do not have the support you need to pull this kind of nonsense.

        But go ahead – Further undermine your own already weak legitimacy and authority.

        The bad news is that there are sufficiently cooler heads in the Biden admin – probably, that none of this idiocy will happen.

        But alteast your talking about it further undermines your own credibilty3

        1. You said to me the other day, “No I am not going to prove to you things you can look up yourself.” What goes around comes around.

          For the record, I am not Wilkerson, so instead of saying “it was NOT what you claim,” you should be saying “it was NOT what HE claims.”

          1. So long as you are posting as anonymous – no one knows who you are – there is no for the record – there is no record.

            Yopu are anonymous – you could be anyone.

          1. You did not respond to any point – not even the first sentence.

            Can I presume that means you are just full of hot air ?

          2. You want the simple version – Flynn gets a pass, he is the actual real world victim of a left wing nut criminal conspiracy that went right up to president obama and involved Biden.

            If Fynn want to spew death threats at Biden – he gets a free pass.

            You however are a passive part of a criminal conspiracy to frame a man that the administration KNEW was innocent.

            1. John say, Flynn was not innocent. Plenty of proof points to him lying to the VP.

              He admitted in court of his guilt under penalty of perjury. Flynn was already in trouble the moment he lied to pence.

              Portraying him as a victim is a cheap argument.

              1. “Flynn was not innocent”
                “Of course he was.”

                “Plenty of proof points to him lying to the VP.”
                That is highly debatable. In fact Trump and Pence could not even make sense out of the claim he had lied.
                Regardless, that is not a crime.

                “He admitted in court of his guilt under penalty of perjury.”
                You clearly know nothing about gulty please – particularly coerced ones.
                Regardless, Flynn withdrew his pleas.

                I hope you are never faced with a prosecutor like Mueller who will threaten your family if you do not KowTow.

                “Flynn was already in trouble the moment he lied to pence.”
                And what was that lie ? The transcript of Flynn’s conversation with Kislyak is now available.
                Flynn did not raise sanctions, and did not respond to Kislyak mentioning them.

                If you are claiming Flynn lied to Pence – what was the lie ? What exactly did Pence say.

                “Portraying him as a victim is a cheap argument.”
                No it is the truth.

                There should be serious sanctions for all involved.

                Do you want the prosecutors going after Hunter using the same tactics on him ?

                If the FBI had gone after Hillary as they did Flynn she would have been in a cell long ago.

                Joe Biden has lied to the american people about Burisma, He likely lied to Obama,
                He also lied tot he state department.

                  1. Logical error.

                    Pence saying Flynn lied does not mean Flynn lied.

                    Read the Kislyak Transcript.

                    It is amazing that we have it – BTW it also exposes illegal actions of the FBI that have still not been documented.
                    Flynn;s identity was not redacted int he transcript. That means that Flynn was wiretapped to get this transcript – not Kislyak.
                    That means there must be another FISA warrant for Flynn that we have never seen and that is likely worse than the Carter Page one.

                    We know exactly what Flynn said to Kislyak.
                    Flynn did not raise sanctions, Flynn did not discuss them.
                    Kislyak tried to and was ignored.

                    The actual lie was that of Sally Yates who told Pence that Flynn lied to him.

                    There is much much more going on than this.
                    But this is a start.

                    I would note that the now documented exchanges that lead to the decision to attempt to entrap Flynn are damning.

                    It is clear that Ranking Obama staff realized they were going to have to tell Fynn about Crossfire Razor and Crossfire Huricane as he was incoming NSA and that when they did all hell was going to break lose and that unlike the rest of incoming Trump staff Flynn would grasp the significance of this and clean house with avengance – something he already wanted to do.

                    Numerous options for dealing with Flynn were discussed and rejected. Ultimately they decided – and this is a conspiracy.
                    To entrap him and get him fired – and possibly prosecuted.

                    What you call Flynn purportedly lying to the FBI is a crime committed by Obama holdovers in DOJ/FBI

                    It is an effort to get the incoming NSA fired so they do not have to tell him the truth.
                    They openly said that.

    2. No impeachment. No use of the 25 Amendment. Gee, Turley, are there no consequences for inciting and directing a violent insurgency? I guess not. If the President does it it’s ok especially if it’s Trump. You have lost all sense of the law. Facts and circumstances. He incited people to violence after he had primed them to commit violence. He knew many were armed. He didn’t urge them to peacefully protest. He urged them to fight. He has often suggested physical violence or as he called the “second amendment solutions”. Of course he didn’t go with them as he promised. He expected violence so he went back to the While House he has covered with shame and watched it with his crime family but that’s fine with you.

      1. It is becoming increasingly difficult to see what type of Presidential action JT belives is impeachable. Nothing seems to qualify.

        1. One that is an actual crime.

          Or atleast on that you have evidence for.

          There are actual incitements to violence throughout this summer by democrats.
          There were several during the Obama administration – by Obama.

          Despite your fears there is nothing trump ever says that is all that unusual.
          In fact Trump talks alot like democrats. He just does not share their policies.

      2. There was no incitement.

        If there actually was DOJ could prosecute it.

        They can not. Trump’s speach was well within first amendment protected norms. It was not even close to what is required for incitement to violence.

        It would not have been incitement to violence if Trump had actually told protestors to occupy the capital and thwart the proceeedings – which he did not do. To be incitement to violence he would have to specifically call for violence.

        Regardless, this is not a raod you want to go down – politicians say the things Trump did all the time.
        Harris has called for protests. The number of democratic politicians who have called for supporters to

        “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,”

        “I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face,”

        Pres. Obama

        Do I really need to list every democrat who has made far more egregious statements.

        You have spent the past 4 years interpretting everything Trump has said through YOU fear.

        Listen to the nonsense that others on the left here are proposing – recalling retired military so that you can prosecute them for things they did as civilians.

        You are fearful that Trump will do something egregious – because YOU would do something egregious.

    3. What nonsense.

      this was not an insurrection.

      And if you are really stupid enough to want to start court martialing people for political expression – Go ahead.

      The only consequential “domestic terrorism” in the US is on the left.

      But hey – if you really want to purge the military – go ahead with that too.

      I am sure those you remove will be happy to not sacrifice their lives in the idiotic conflicts that you start.

      Regardless there are not enough young healthy left wing nuts to field an army.

      BTW this “sympathetic to domestic terrorist” – garbage is hillarious.

      You are quite litterally seeking to violate the 1st amendment.
      You are quite litterally seeking to become the new Joe MacCarthy.

      It is perfectly legitimate to be “sympathetic to domestic terrorists” – whatever that even means.
      What you may not do is ACT violently.

      You can even plot to overthrow the government – so long as you are not part of the government and so long as you do not act.

      Anyway – once again – PLEASE – go forward and do more stupid things.

      PLEASE – engage in a political purge of the army.

      See how well that works out for you.

      I am tired of arguing that you should not do whatever stupid thing you have last conceived of.

      PLEASE – do all these stupid idiotic things that upi think are goof ideas.

  4. JT tweeted “Being obnoxious and narcissistic is not grounds for removal”

    He needs to learn the difference between standard narcissism and malignant narcissism. The problem with Trump is that he’s a malignant narcissist, which is quite dangerous for someone with power.

    1. “Malignant narcisim” is also not a basis for impeachment.

      While it is true that 30% of criminals are sociopaths – malignant narcisim is sociopathy.

      It is also true that a high percentage of teachers, police, politicians, CEOs, Ministers are too.

      A significant portion of successful people are “malignant narcisists”

      Most of us do not like dealing with them. But whether you like it or not the vast majority of malignant narcisists are NOT criminals.
      They are just very successful people most of us would prefer not to deal with.

      Probably all politicians are narcisists, and most are malignant narcisists. Pelosi, and Schiff and Nadler certainly fit.
      Many of our past presidents were malignant narcisists.

      Yes, they are dangerous – but that is part of what makes them effective.

      Trump does not actually fit – but believe what you want.

      I would further note that like a typical leftist you conflate danger with justification.

      There is no inherent right to use power because you beleive someone is dangerous.

      The use of force against another is justifed by ACTS, not fears.
      You may not use force against someone merely because you are afraid of them.

      I had a long debate with S,Meyer over this. If you are feerful of your neighbor, or a neighboring country – you can not invade based on your fear alone. You can prepare based on your perception of danger, but you can not act. You must wait until that danger turns to action – which it usually does not – because most often we are WRONG about our perception of danger.

  5. The fact that you either can’t or won’t see it doesn’t mean the evidence doesn’t exist. Everyone else including hundreds of board certified psychiatrists and psychologists have identified his mental instability. Aides and former staff including his generals have stated he’s unbalanced and unfit. That you are too obtuse to admit or even acknowledge his clearly unbalanced mental health doesn’t mean it’s not there. It just means you’d let an unbalanced lunatic continue to have control of the nukes because you’re either too stubborn or too stupid to see it. Or both.

    1. The only one with mental instability is you. You praise on side and then the other. Your eloquency is a disguise for the state of your mental health. One request please. Write less. There are others who want to give their views and be heard and having to read your comments is becoming overbearing. We may have to censure you. Be aware. Your writings could cause some to rebel. I t could cause some to commit violence.

      1. There are several people who comment anonymously. If you think we’re all one person, no wonder you come to erroneous conclusions.

        1. If you want credibility and a reputation – then do not comment anonymously.

          If you comment anonymously you can forgive the rest of us for confusing you with others who do.

    2. God not another one of these stupid left wing nut appeals to authority.

      Every single one of the people that you are citing has violated the ethical standards of their profession.

      No Doctor may diagnose a person that is not a patient.

      Their ethics are garbage and their claims worse.

      Further, they are at odds with the views of most of the country.

      We have been through this lunatic nonsense before.

      That you can not last another ten days says far far more about YOUR mental instability.

      I would further note that you expect us to beleive that a man who is unfit – is the first president in a century to NOT get the US into a new military conflict. Has actually made substantial progress at getting us out of entanglements in the mideast – and would have done better but for the lies told by the generals and experts you cite. Has increased European spending on their own defense radically swinging the balance of power in europe against Russia – you know that country you think he colluded with, has brought the US to energy independence. And used that to change foreign policy priorities of the US and other countries throughout the world. Has contained China.
      Has pushed the development of a vaccine to a deadly virus to 1/5 of the prior shortest development time for a new virus.
      Has reduced government regulation – and yet out air and water and environment are cleaner than ever. Has gotten us out of the Paris accords – and yet we are emitting less CO2 than ever (probably a mistake). Has managed to get nearly the whole Arab world to negotiate peace with Israel.

      Are these the acts of a mentally unstable person ?

      Trump has accomplished far more in 4 years that Obama in 8.

      If Trump is insane “Please Sir, Can I have More?”

  6. “Being obnoxious and narcissistic is not grounds for removal. Indeed, such a standard would leave much of Washington vacant”

    Especially the ‘leadership” in the House.

  7. Lets consider the possibility that a Col. Vindman in the apparat has been stoking the 25th Amendment talk out of anxiety that the president would order declassifications and pardons injurious to the Deep State.

    The 25th Amendment talk is humbug, of course. There is no evidence the President is anything but healthy and lucid. You’d need the consent of Pence and the consent of 8 of 15 cabinet members. Since five of the cabinet positions are vacant and have placeholders performing their functions, you’d need 8 of the remaining 10. An impeachment would have to be a snap proceeding consented to by 1/3 of the Republican caucus. You might get four votes out of the Republican caucus.

  8. The democratic party is increasingly bat$hit crazy.

    They are incredibly anxious.
    They are behaving as if Trump actually won the election.

    You wonder why the capital was stormed ?

    Many people grasp that when people behave as if they have something to hide,
    When they are furitive, fearful and anxious – they are not trusted or beleived.

    Democrats should be celebrating. They should be planning the future.

    Instead they are STILL fixated on Trump.

    He will not be president in a few days, and yet he continues to own massive space in their minds.

    There is little reporting on Biden. All the news is STILL Trump.

    The left can not let go.

    They are desparate to make sure he can not run again in 2024 – which is highly unlikely.

    But again that desparation strongly implies two things – that THEY beleive Trump actually won.
    And that THEY beleive that the next 4 years of democratic governanc are going to be miserable.

    And I beleive them.

    1. Once again, you infer something that wasn’t implied, and you attribute your mistaken inferences to others. Own your inferences, don’t pretend that they were implied. Maybe take a class on logical reasoning and learn to avoid false inferences.

      1. “Once again, you infer something that wasn’t implied, and you attribute your mistaken inferences to others. Own your inferences, don’t pretend that they were implied. Maybe take a class on logical reasoning and learn to avoid false inferences.”

        What does this nonsense even mean ? Can I buy a noun ?

        Absolutely my post is full of inferences.

        I am infering based on the conduct of democrats what their emotions and thoughts.

        Not only am I doing that – but milions of americans are.

        You are behaving like terrified guilty children affraid you might get caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

        BTW – I am fully supportive – Keep it up. Bring it on. Make your next 4 years all about Trump. Make them all about censorship.

        Have you really been this badly educated ?

        Someone here just repeated the Trump is a nazi nonsense again.

        Please learn something about actual Nazi’s – you are mirroring them perfectly – except when you are parroting maoists.


        You think it is smart and people will be happy. I think it is incredibly stupid and things will fail and people will revolt – as they already have.

        While the capital protests were NOT an insurrection – lets pretend they were – this country was BORN of insurrection.

        Boston patriots tarred and feathered representatives of the crown. Maybe next time the right comes to the capital they can tar and feather a few senators and representatives – that is completely consistent with our history.

        You can send the capital police to disperse trump supporters from the mall – and we can repeat lexington and concord.

        If you actually beleive you won the election – then sit down shut up about Trump and show us all how you are going to govern successfully.

        Because guess what ? The stakes for the left are incredibly high and the odds against you are enormous.

        The response of democratic governors throughout the country has significantly weakened the economy. Had the country grasped what the data tells us that lockdowns do not work this fall and ended them – many businesses would have recovered. The 2nd wave of lockdowns with no end in site has doomed possibly 30% of the small business in this country. Even so with the right policies recovery could be swift and strong – though you STILL would have F’d over a generation of small business people. But we saw the economics of the left with Obama. Please, Please bring back the Obama presidency – and see if a democrats can be elected dog catcher in 2022.

        Throughout the country and arround the world – your efforts will be measured against Trump’s – and no matter how much ranting you have done, that is a high bar.

        Rising gas prices – your in trouble,
        Russian ascendence – your in trouble.
        The US engaging further militarialy in the mideast – your in trouble,
        Chinese ascendence – your in trouble.
        A weak economy – your in trouble.
        A mass influx of illegal immigrants – your in trouble.

        Honestly – I hope you succeed. If you do not lots and lots of people will suffer.

        There is an enormous difference between a 1.8% increase in Standard of living each year and a 3% increase.

        Prior to Covid Trump was putting the least well off in the country back to work. Some of them were back to work in the summer and fall.
        Now that has reversed.

        You can say you inherited that – but the fact is you created it.
        The same govenors who rewrote the election laws on their own, locked down the economy.
        You own what comes.

        If you succeed – Democrat will own the government for atleast a decade. And for the sake of the american people I hope you succeed.

        But that is NOT where I am betting my money.

        And if you do not …. ?

        You had better hope Trump runs in 2024. Because the alternative will surely be worse for you.

    2. “He will not be president in a few days”

      Joe, Trump is going to serve a second term as President. He won in a landslide.

      The Atomic Sledgehammer Of Truth & Justice has already started to fall, and at this point, it can’t be stopped.

      Nothing can stop what is coming.

      And it will be glorious…

        1. A plurality of americans do not beleive that.

          And that is a huge problem for you.

          While i beleive that plurality is correct – it does not matter if they are wrong.
          They do not trust the results. And their lack of trust is for very good reasons.
          Democrats had the opportunity to reassure them – and they failed.
          Now they have the whitehouse with a stigma that is not going away.

          The press is less predictable.
          They made a fortune off of Trump.
          But if they actually get a quiet presidency with Biden – much of the MSM will be in serious financial difficult quite fast.
          Conversely all the pro-trump or conservative media will be thriving.

          The MSM has a simple choice – scritinize the Biden administration – and survive or turn a blind eye and die.

      1. I strongly suspect that democrats have a very very very hard time coming.

        But Biden is going to be president, and Democrats will by the skin of their teeth control all of government.

        What they will do with that is unknown. But the liklelyhood of their being successful is near zero.

        There will be more election information that will come out over time.
        That will be very slow and mostly kept quiet by the press – but it will get out.

        There will be more on Hunter Biden.
        And if there is not there will be lots of questions ?

        There will be more from Durham.
        And if there is not there will be lots of questions.

  9. Just wait. The dems will be invoking the 25th, at least in spirit, in short order to get Kamala in the chair. Insanity is no longer a sufficient descriptor for any of this. The Democratic Party has ceased being an American institution. They have ceased being a democratic institution, period.

  10. Trumps promise for an orderly transfer of power means zero since he has already made this the worst and most chaotic transfer in at least 120 years. JT has a pathology where he believes everything Trumps says. But on the main point, ya, the 25th can be used this way, it is the fastest way to remove a deranged President. Pence and the cabinet know what Trump is up to better then Congress, and if they see something brewing then they have a duty to act.

    1. Right – Obama was in the whitehouse plotting a coup during the transition – and you think this is the worst transition ?

      Regardless, you need to make up your mind about what Trump says.
      The left constantly tells me that I must be absolutely livid about something Trump said – that it is the end of life as we know it that
      racist and authoritarian.

      So I read it and much of what he posts is innocuous. Wow! he disagree’s with the left.

      Trump has never censored anyone.

      The left has been censoring EVERYONE – including their own for years.

      Sorry MollyG

        1. Obama murdered innocent people via drones

          Heckuva comparison you pulled bubba but no one expects you to see yourself as being bath$hit evil

          1. Trump also murdered innocent people via drones.

            John said “Obama was in the whitehouse plotting a coup during the transition,” and John is wrong, even if you can’t admit it.

            1. Again the FBI investigation of the Collusion delusion as well as Flynn was required to end prior to Jan 4 and all leads had been exhausted and all allegations had proven false.

              Obama, Biden, Yates, Comey and Rice plotted to keep it open to entrap Flynn and to thwart the incoming administration

              None of this is secret – anymore.

            2. Re drones. Dirty business for sure. But if I were president I’d use them in pre-emptive ways too. I’d be sickened by collateral damage and on some level would ruin my life…, but war is not tiddlywinks. You find the quickest way to put your opponent on their heels and lean on that tactic. That’s where the whole concept of double tapping and triple tapping comes from. Strategically, you find what your opponent likes to do and you make damn sure it’s near impossible for them to do it.

              Those are the stakes. Didn’t write them, but they’re effective. Like I said, even being completely opposed to the middle eastern invasions the U.S. has ventured into, if I were president I’d play offense when playing defense.

              Elvis Bug

        2. Of course he did.

          XFH had wound down. Buy Jan 4, 2017 the FBI had nothing and was required by DOJ rules to shutdown the investigation.

          Obama, Biden, Comey, Yates, Rice plotted to keep the investigation open. to entrap Flynn and to undermine the incoming president.

          That is a coup.

          1. John’s right. That was criminal interference with the elections. The steal started then and the DOJ faked investigation of it. Barr is a creep

            1. Sorry, I have many disagreements with Barr. But he did honestly return to rebuild the reputation of the DOJ and FBI.

              I expect whatever good he did will be wiped away shortly. But he did try.

          1. Oh My the grammar police have struck.

            “My spelling is Wobbly. It’s good spelling but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places.”
            ― A.A. Milne

      1. At the time there was serious concern that the Trump campaign was working with or compromised by Russian Intelligence. So they quietly opened an investigation, but still made sure the actual transition was smooth. After a two year Mueller investigation we still do not know for sure what the true relationship between the Trump campaign and Russian Intelligence is (there was not enough proof one way or the other), but we do know those initial concerns were justified.

        1. “At the time there was serious concern that the Trump campaign was working with or compromised by Russian Intelligence. ”
          Both false and irrelevant – significantly before Jan 4. DOJ and FBI had already establieshed that the Steele Dossier was garbage – infact that it was “russian disinformation” – The CIA was aware in June of 2016 that the Clinton Campaign was (probably unwittingly) working with Russian agents to create a false narrative that Trump was connected to Putin.

          “So they quietly opened an investigation”
          That was required to end on Jan 4. when it was clear this was all garbage.

          Obama, Biden, Comey, Yates, Rice met AFTER that, and were explicityly trying to figure out how to continue the investigation despite having nothing.

          You do not seem to understand – though there are still a few damning things that are likely to be made public – as an example there is strong indications the Trump Campaign investigation started BEFORE Jul 31, 2016 – and they will be a really really big problem – because there was no credible basis. There is also strong indications that CIA was involved.

          ” but still made sure the actual transition was smooth.”
          Nope. Yates was improperly interfering all over the place from day one.
          Obama staff and holdovers were leaking like a seive – mostly false information until they were found and arrested, fired or transfered.

          “After a two year Mueller investigation”
          Which should never have been opened – because even Horrowitz found that the investigation had cleared all allegations by early january.
          You do not seem to grasp that the Mueller investigation was actually a crime. It was brought without foundation.
          Every single thing that Mueller claims to have learned was KNOWN by the end of december 2016.

          “we still do not know for sure what the true relationship between the Trump campaign and Russian Intelligence is (there was not enough proof one way or the other), but we do know those initial concerns were justified.”

          Really ? The FBI investigated, It is near certain the CIA investigated. We know as an example that Flynn was being wiretapped.
          Mueller and his band of angry henchmen investigated for 2 years.
          The entire world press investigated.

          Do you really beleive that the Trump campaign is so incredibly good at spycraft and clandestine operations that they left absolutely no fingerprints ?

          Further – if as you say Trump was tied to Putin – Trump would have been subject to Blackmail by Putin.

          So how do you explain that the only Positive thing Trump did for Putin – itself a sort of backhand slap in the face was to shift the focus of US policy to China – something that was in the works for 2 decades and long overdue. China’s economy is 10 times Russia’s China’s military spending is near as large as the entire russian economy. Regardless, Trump pushed US fracking – screwing Russia. He pushed NATO and the EU to increase defense spending – screwing russia, He guarenteed the EU energy supply screwing russia. The US nearly got into a shooting contest with Russian TWICE during trumps presidency and the US military was directed NOT to back down – to force the Russians OUT.

          This is your idea of in bed with Russia ? If Putin has freinds like these he does not need enemies.

          Conversly – Obama pushed the Russian Reset – twice. Pushed the Uranium 1 Deal. Gave the ukraine blankets to fight the russians with.
          The Clinton foundation received hundreds of millions from Russian oligarchs. Bill Clinton received $500K

          BTW all of this was known BEFORE the election.

          And you really think Trump was conspiring with Russia ?

          Every single person who in late 2016 thought Trump was conspiring with Russia – Please put on a dunce cap.

          You are clueless, and no one should elect you dog catcher.

          1. Here the GOP led majority Senate Intel Comm report (issued in 8/20) refutes Trumpster John Say’s nonsense.


            “The Committee found that Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the Russian
            effort to hack computer networks and accounts affiliated with the Democratic Party and leak
            information damaging to Hillary Clinton and her campaign for president. Moscow’s intent was
            to harm the Clinton Campaign, tarnish an expected Clinton presidential administration, help the
            Trump Campaign after Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee, and undermine the
            U.S. democratic process.
            -WikiLeaks actively sought, and played, a key role in the Russian
            influen~ery likely knew it was assistin a Russian intelli ence influence
            effort. The Committee found si nificant indications tha
            At the time of the
            first WikiLeaks releases, the U.S. Government had not yet declared WikiLeaks a hostile
            organization and many treated itas a journalistic entity.
            (U) While the GRU and WikiLeaks were releasing hacked documents, the Trump
            Campaign sought to maximize the impact of those leaks to aid Trump’s electoral
            prospects. Staff on the Trump Campaign sought advance notice about WikiLeaks releases,
            created messaging strategies to promote and share the materials in anticipation of and following
            thdr release, and encouraged further leaks. The Trump Campaign publicly undermined the
            attribution of the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia and was indifferent to whether it and
            WikiLeaks were furthering a Russian election interference effort. …”

            1. JF – you still do not seem to get it.

              The committee found – is not a FACT.

              It has taken a long time – but we actually know the facts now.

              These are for the most part NOT facts.

              We had this before with Banghazi. I beleive there were something like 4 Senate investigations and 5 house ones all of which reached conclusions that were missing absolutelly critical evidence that the administration had hidden.

              The Clinton emails – those recovered, completely changed our knowledge of what the administration knew of Benghazi and when they knew it.

              Court findings are not facts, Senate Findings are not facts. Reporters claims are not facts, anonymous sources are not facts.

              They are all evidence. Sometimes but not always strong evidence.

              But the FACTS are what they are – whether you like them or not.

              I am not interested in going through what you are offering point by point.
              Most of which is refuted by the Mueller report, the Horrowitz report and an assortment of declassified documents.

              1. “I am not interested in going through what you are offering point by point.”

                Actually, it’s because you can’t.

                Elvis Bug

                1. I did got through it point by point and it was far crappier than I had expected.

                  What little was there has been so thoroughly debunked – you know like Actually debunked – not the idiocy of left claims that something is debunked – meaning we do not like it and will not accept the corruption of the Biden family until it is stuffed down our throats.

                  Pelosi is working on Faux impeachment Redaux – because damn if Hunter Biden was not actually being investigated criminally while she was impeaching Trump for purportedly asking for an unfounded investigation.

                  Well aparently multiple US Attorneys quietly agreed BEFORE Trump acted.

                  Hmm. Clueless.

            2. JF

              What the h3ll

              All your cut and past does is prove that US Senators are incapable of critical thinking.
              Who ever wrote this garbage has an IQ just above dirt.

              Republican, democrat – do not care.

              I have addressed this multiple times before – as have myriads of others.

              All you are doing is pushing a stupid left wing conspiracy theory that does not pass the laugh test.

              “The Committee found that Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the Russian
              effort to hack computer networks and accounts affiliated with the Democratic Party and leak
              information damaging to Hillary Clinton and her campaign for president.”
              Bzzt wrong. There remains to this day no actual evidence that the DNC was hacked but the russians, or that the emails were exfiltrated by a hack. Assange has repeatedly asserted the information came from a leak and that Russia was not involved.
              You need not beleive assange – but you have no other primary source for where Wikileaks got the emails.
              It is absolutely correct that the DNC was hacked twice by someone using Russian hacking tools – but nearly every hacker in the world has those tools. At nearly the same time French TV was hacked using the same hacking tools. Eventually it was established that the hack originated in Turkey. There is substantial evidence that the files that Wikileaks made public were transfer over a USB stick not the internet.

              Regardless, it is just proof of the ineptitude of congress that they are repeating an allegation that is more likely to be false than true.
              BTW we also know that at nearly the same time A rusian Agent WAS colluding with the Clinton campaign and that Putin was aware of this based on information from the CIA.

              “Moscow’s intent was
              to harm the Clinton Campaign, tarnish an expected Clinton presidential administration, help the
              Trump Campaign after Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee, and undermine the
              U.S. democratic process.”

              More recently declassified CIA analysis confirms what everyone with a brain cell knows.

              Putin was not interested in seeing Trump as president. He was unpredicatable and his policies were harmful to Russia. Putin favored Clinton. But if you do not want CIA analysis – Russian Oligrachs gave the Clinton foundation over 140M and Bill 500K.
              What did Trump get from Russia ? A beauty pagent in 2013, and a flat NO to a Trump Tower Moscow.

              You do not have to be a CIA analyst to know who Putin wanted as president. You just have to have an IQ over dirt.

              “-WikiLeaks actively sought, and played, a key role in the Russian
              influenery likely knew it was assistin a Russian intellience influence

              Wikileaks openly admits that it gets leaks from a wide variety of sources – including russia.
              There is no reason to presume that Wikileaks would lie about the DNC source when it openly admits SOME information comes from Russia.

              ” The Committee found sinificant indications that at the time of the
              first WikiLeaks releases, the U.S. Government had not yet declared WikiLeaks a hostile
              organization and many treated it as a journalistic entity.”

              This might as well be a paragraph from jaberwocky.
              Wikileaks IS a journalistic entity. The fact that an embarrased Obama administration pushed a stupid finding to punish it is idiocy.

              Hopefully Trump will Pardon Assange as well as Snowden – as an FU to Obama/Biden.
              And maybe we will get the truth.

              Regardless we need organizations like Wikileaks.
              And Yes they are journalists.

              “While the GRU and WikiLeaks were releasing hacked documents,”
              The GRU did not release documents.
              How do you expect a report to be credible with such stupid statements.

              “the Trump Campaign sought to maximize the impact of those leaks to aid Trump’s electoral
              Absolutely – not a crime. Normal politics.

              “Staff on the Trump Campaign sought advance notice about WikiLeaks releases,
              created messaging strategies to promote and share the materials in anticipation of and following
              thdr release, and encouraged further leaks.”
              Absolutely – but the actual evidence shows that the only communications between the Trump campaign and Wikileaks were AFTER THE FACT and ONE WAY. TFA never received advance notice of anything.

              Not that it actually matters. There is nothing illegal or improper about Trump coordinating with Wikileaks.

              You seem to be under the impression that no one is allowed to know that the DNC’s shit stinks.

              “The Trump Campaign publicly undermined the attribution of the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia”
              Probably – so what ? As of today they remain correct, There is no credible attribution of the source of the DNC emails.

              “and was indifferent to whether it and WikiLeaks were furthering a Russian election interference effort. …”
              Again SO WHAT ?

              Again the presumption of your entire argument is that the world is not entitled to know that the DNC’s $hit stinks if the source of that information might be russia.

              Russia is an independent actor – sometimes what it does benefits the US, sometimes it does not.

              It is not the US government or the Trump campaigns job to determine Russia’s motives and thwart them,.

              In 2020 the MSM successfully burried the Hunter Biden story – lying to most americans claiming it was Russian disinformation – a claim that is ludicrously stupid on its face. The former intelligence officials that signed on to that should be laughed out of intelligence forever.

              There is ZERO doubt that in burying this the MSM interfered in the US election.
              Is election interference acceptable if it is the MSM but not if it is Russia ?
              There is excellent information that China interfered in the 2020 election to benefit Biden.

              If I am a defense lawyer and a peodophile provides me the evidence to prove my client is innocent – must I refuse to use it – because it came from a peodophile ?

      2. “Right – Obama was in the whitehouse plotting a coup during the transition – and you think this is the worst transition ?”

        Yes, Trumps hack factor 10 transition is the *worst* in modern history, hands down. Little crazy thoughts in your head notwithstanding.

        Elvis Bug

          1. Yes…

            Much as I’d love to take credit for it on my own, a bunch of historians agree. And I trust them much more than I do you.

            Elvis Bug

            1. If you are writing about it while it happens you are not a historian – regardless just another stupid appeal to authority.

              And not even named authorities.

  11. dear professor says…”Trump has already pledged an orderly transfer of power to President-elect Joe Biden.”

    Well by all means, wait for him to leave office. I mean come on, the dear baby trump never tells a lie.

  12. If a psychiatric exam is the standard to trigger the amendment, it should be stated there. It was needed to protect the American people, not the president, and is meant to be used quickly. VP Pence is in a better position to know Trump’s “capacity” than Congress. That includes whether Trump has the capacity to participate in his own defense at a trial or an impeachment. His behavior since the riot raises real issues about whether he can. And, very importantly, the people who directly caused the criminal acts – namely his unhinged supporters – are still at large, and capable of doing it again. So far, Trump has shown no awareness that his own words were a necessary part of the crime. The 25th gives him the benefit of the doubt. As we’ve seen, he does not have the capacity to know right from wrong – except when it’s done by his enemies.

    1. Aninny:
      Ah, remote moral diagnosis added to your quiver! Who cares that the Good Book (and common sense) says “no man can know another’s heart.” You can! We are humbled to be in your presence.

      On a side note, you know, clowns are really underrated as diagnosticians.

      1. LMAO that you quote “no man can know another’s heart” when you regularly pretend to do just that, mesblow. You complain about “remote moral diagnosis” while yourself engaging in it elsewhere on the page.

    2. Why do you beleive Pence or the cabinet are even discussing the 25th amendment ?

      As to Psychology – did Biden ever take a MOCHA ? We are about to learn what an incapacitated president is.

      I have no idea what you have learned. I have seen no evidence Trump does not know right from wrong.

      He never threatened a foreign power to benefit his son.

      He has not sicced the FBI on journalists or congressmen.

      He has not sicced the FBI on political opponents.

      He is not censoring anyone.

      He is not advocating stealing from all americans to pay for the advanced education of a few elites.

      4 years ago I was told the Democratic party was the party of the working class, of minorities, that it was anti-establishment, anti-war, that it was the enemy of big business, and wall street. Yet what I see is a party that is increasingly anti-working class, neo-con, in bed with wallstreet, big tech, big pharma, big everything, and increasingly over privildged mostly white elites who have never actually worked a day in their lives.

      1. “He has not sicced the FBI on journalists or congressmen.”

        Saudis with bone saws though??? Now we’re talking.

        Elvis Bug

        1. So ?

          They were in Turkey.

          Is the US the policemen of the world ?

          Since when are Saudi agents operating in Turkey instruments of US policy ?

          The only instance of the US government interfering with journalists was during the Obama administration.

          1. I love watching the mechanics of denial play out real time. Thanks, John.

            Elvis Bug

            p.s. the Saudis would’ve never killed a Washington Post reporter and resident of the U.S. without tacitly checking it with the trump administration. To not have done that, on their part, would be suicide.

            1. “I love watching the mechanics of denial play out real time. Thanks, John.”

              Not denying anything – the jurisdicution of the united states is not global.

              “the Saudis would’ve never killed a Washington Post reporter and resident of the U.S. without tacitly checking it with the trump administration. To not have done that, on their part, would be suicide.”

              And yet they engaged in a trade war with IS frackers during the Obama administration – and Obama did nothing about it.

              A suadi killed three people at Pensacola in 2019 – do you think Trump approved that too ?

  13. The diabolical machinations of the Dims are comical. Trump is really in their heads. It’s not him they fear but his growing populist movement. Their hypocrisy over violence is best summed by the old Max Steiner line “The state calls its own violence law, but that of the individual, crime.” In this case, of course, not all violence is equal; some like BLM’s and Antifa’s are more equal than others. Now that the Dims have power they’ll turn on their own brown shirts (see Ernst Röhm) and put their fascism into a more globalized economic context with free speech being under assault and ironically, the media cheering them on. It won’t end well. Everyone knows you can vote in socialism like the pitiful South Americans do periodically but you have to shoot your way out. Get to the range now.

  14. Trump is going to serve 4 more years. Pelosi will spend the remainder of her life in prison.

    Surprising that you guys don’t see what is actually happening.

    You can’t stop what is coming…nothing can stop what is coming.

    Time is running out…tick-tock-tick-tock…


  15. The evidently irrational individual, emotionally rattled lunatic is none other than dentures challenged
    Nancy Pelosi. She’s the one who needs to be removed from office.

    1. Oh I see Nancy post-election as Augustus following the Teutoburg Forest fiasco pounding her head on the walls of the capitol screaming “Chuckie, Chuckie give me back my members.”

  16. Off SUBJECT.
    Nobody has done more for the development and
    Promotion of Golf than Donald Trump.
    Thank you Mr President.

    1. An important element in the master plan was to allow all the phonies to reveal themselves.

      Their misery is just beginning, and they brought it on themselves.

  17. It is so comforting that Nancy Pelosi is all about the people’s work, covid 19 vaccinations, opening up blue states’ economies to help the common American, stopping the genocidal governor of new york……

  18. Looks like we need to think about new laws that would be relevant to another situation like this if God forbid it would happen again

  19. Let him ride the pony until the 20th. If he does not leave the White House then send in the crowd. Nuff said about this dumb fred.

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