Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk of the United States District Court for the Northern District of Texas delivered a blow to the Biden Administration on Friday by ordering the reinstatement of the Trump-era Migrant Protection Protocols (MPP) program, also known as the “Remain-in-Mexico” policy. This is only the latest of a string of losses by the Biden Administration in its first six months in court.
Under the Migrant Protection Protocols program in January 2019 asylum seekers who passed through Mexico on their way to the U.S. had to stay in Mexico while their claims were processed in U.S. courts. The policy was meant to end a practice of claiming asylum in order to draw out appeals for years or not appearing for required hearings. It was intended to deter many who just wanted to gain entrance in the United States. It also reduced the burden for beds and facilities along the border.
In his 53-page opinion, Judge Kacsmaryk found that the states of Texas and Missouri had shown sufficient injury after noting increases in human trafficking and other criminal acts as part of the surge at the Southern border after President Joe Biden ended the policy. Some 13,000 undocumented immigrants have been admitted to the country since the ending of the policy.
Kacsmaryk held that the June memo by Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas to formally end the Remain in Mexico policy violated the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) by failing to consider the program’s “benefits.”
That should sound familiar. Within two weeks of taking office, Biden racked up one of his first losses under the APA when he reversed Trump’s deportation order. While many are denouncing that and the most recent decision, it was precisely the attack used by Trump critics during the prior administration. Even though President Barack Obama did not satisfy APA conditions in imposing original rules, the Supreme Court enforced such procedures to reverse prior orders. During that litigation over the Trump executive orders, I repeatedly noted that the Democratic challengers in court were making arguments that would likely used against the next Democratic president in seeking to quickly undo Trump’s orders.
The court ruled that the unilateral action was taken acted “arbitrarily and capriciously” in ending the Remain-in-Mexico policy.
A key issue in the Remain-in-Mexico policy is that there is a clear footprint in federal law. Congress gave DHS the option not to use mandatory detention in the United States: “In the case of an alien described in [Section 1225(b)(2)(A)] who is arriving on land (whether or not at a designated port of arrival) from a foreign territory contiguous to the United States, [DHS] may return the alien to that territory pending a proceeding under Section 1229a of this title.” § 1225(b)(2)(C).
The unilateral action is precisely what Democrats challenged under President Trump. APA prohibits agency actions that are “arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, or otherwise not in accordance with law.” 5 U.S.C. § 706(2)(A). Accordingly, “the agency must examine the relevant data and articulate a satisfactory explanation for its action including a ‘rational connection between the facts found and the choice made.’” Motor Vehicle Mfrs. Ass’n of U.S., Inc. v. State Farm Mut. Auto. Ins. Co., 463 U.S. 29, 43 (1983) (quoting Burlington Truck Lines v. United States, 371 U.S. 156, 168 (1962)). The court found the Biden Administration violated APA by taking action without such review and reasonable deliberation.
One of the key issues will be whether the policy is an enforcement decision. The unreviewable actions includes an agency’s decision not to institute enforcement proceedings. ” Dep’t of Homeland Sec. v. Regents of the Univ. of Cal., 140 S. Ct. 1905 (2020) (citing Heckler v. Chaney, 470 U.S. 821, 831–32 (1985)). However, the court rejected that characterization:
“the decision to terminate MPP “is more than a non-enforcement policy.” Regents, 140 S. Ct. at 1907. Although the termination of MPP itself does not confer affirmative benefits, the interaction between the termination of MPP and the lack of detention capacity necessarily means more aliens will be released and paroled into the Plaintiff States. And parole does create affirmative benefits for aliens such as work authorization. App. 337; Texas, 809 F.3d at 167 (“Likewise, to be reviewable agency action, DAPA need not directly confer public benefits.”) (emphasis added).
Moreover, the MPP program is not about enforcement proceedings at all. Any alien eligible for MPP has already been placed into enforcement proceedings under Section 1229a. The only question MPP answers is where the alien will be while the federal government pursues removal — in the United States or in Mexico.
That (and standing) could clearly divide judges.
Here is the opinion: Texas v. Biden
Breitbart: “While Afghanistan was falling to Taliban terrorists, the Biden White House prioritized the LGBT agenda in foreign policy, flying the rainbow flag above the U.S. Embassy in Kabul to mark Pride Month.”
***
If we had just taught the Afghan Army how to shoot instead of how to bugger each other it might have been different.
A comment in tonight’s WSJ sums it up nicely:
This President is a fraud. A small, hollowed out, corrupt shell of a man who actually believes his own lies. Please save the Trump comparisons. They’re both flawed, but Biden has set a new low. In 7 months he has destroyed the trust of the international community and his own US citizens. Breathtaking.
“Just like Obama previously said, “Don’t underestimate Joe’s ability to f*ck things up.”
***
Despite the warning Joe has exceeded expectations for failure.
We have to remember that this is the jerk our leftist friends on the blog picked for their President.
A know-nothing, plagiarist, foolish old senile man who is corrupt. That says very little for our fellow leftist bloggers.
S Meyer, the best one-sentence summary of Biden’s capabilities and character I have seen! The debacles on the border and in Afghanistan show the measure of his heedless incompetence. With regard to the latter, I have supported from the beginning getting out of Afghanistan. But the way Biden and his military planners conducted the exit is almost beyond belief. Perhaps Milley should have been spending less time worrying about “white rage” and more about doing his job.
“But the way Biden and his military planners conducted the exit is” identical to their operations at the southern border: Chaos.
Intentional managed decline.
Marjorie Greene:
“I just got off White House briefing for Congress concerning Afghanistan.
Joe Biden is a FOOL!
* The military equipment and arms were left on purpose for the Afghan military to supposedly defend themselves. But they have handed it all over with no resistance.
* 5,000 prisoners have been released from the base. Known terrorists.
* Our border is wide open and out of control. These terrorists can easily make their way to the US.
* The Taliban is in full control and ISIS is there as well.
* Trump defeated ISIS and Biden is to blame for their imminent rise.
* Turkey and Pakistan are going to soon move in to “stabilize” Afghanistan.
* Over $1 trillion in spending, over 2,000 Americans lives lost, and over 20,000 injured and maimed over the last 18 years for absolutely nothing.
My love and support goes out to all of our military members and veterans of Afghanistan, and also especially to any family who lost a loved one. God Bless our Gold Star families.”
You would actually quote this psychotic Q-Anon moron, who said Sandy Hook was a hoax, she followed around and harassed a school shooting victim and said that the California wild fires were caused by Jewish satellites? She also stood outside AOC’s office door, bellowing and demanding to be let in. She even opened the mail slot and was yelling into AOC’s office, and you quote this ignorant witch? Now, if we had taken away the weapons we had given to the Afghanistan government, we’d be bad guys for preventing them from defending themselves. It’s not Biden’s fault that the Afghan military don’t have the desire or guts to fight for their own freedom. Explain how the Afghan cowardice makes Joe Biden a fool.
And, BTW, Republicans have forgotten how Trump supported withdrawing troops from Afghanistan:
The Republican National Committee was caught attempting to quietly erase history on Sunday when a page on GOP.com praising former President Donald Trump’s “historic peace agreement with the Taliban” was deleted as Afghanistan fell to the Taliban. So much for Trump’s “master dealmaker” skills.
The Washington Post’s Dave Weigel first noticed the apparent takedown, which an RNC spokesperson later billed as a routine update to the website.
“How quickly can the politics around Afghanistan change? Here’s a section on the RNC’s website in June; click it now, and you get a 404 error.” Weigel added alongside an image of the dated page.
Hours later, RNC spokesperson Mike Reed said the site’s page was missing due to the GOP operation launching a new website and the old content not being carried over.
“This is so dishonest,” Reed tweeted. “We launched a new website last week… some of the old posts haven’t been carried over yet. Go look… all blog/research pieces from years ago aren’t there. But good try attempting to divert attention from the folks actually in charge of this disaster.”
Additionally, on Sunday evening, Trump called for Biden to “resign in disgrace” over his role in withdrawing troops from Afghanistan.
“It is time for Joe Biden to resign in disgrace for what he has allowed to happen to Afghanistan, along with the tremendous surge in COVID, the Border catastrophe, the destruction of energy independence, and our crippled economy,” Trump declared in a statement. “It shouldn’t be a big deal, because he wasn’t elected legitimately in the first place!”
Notably, as the situation quickly unravels in Afghanistan, many Republicans are already flipping on positions about withdrawing troops from the region held only months ago.
Y’all need to shut the hell up.
This demonstrates the left doesn’t accept the rule of law and at the same time demonstrates why the rule of law exists.
The fascist oligarchy led by an old senile fool is anti -American and needs to go. Things are getting worse very quickly and the dangers are increasing.
S. Meyer– “Things are getting worse very quickly and the dangers are increasing.”
***
I expected it to be bad but it is falling apart faster than I expected.
This kind of reminds me of the sudden collapse of the Soviet Union. I hope it doesn’t go that far, but it is hard to see a glimmer of hope when the country is in the hands of retards, racialists, woke academics, subversives and grifters.
It tells you something about the predictive ability of our IC both civilian and military. It tells you something about the leadership of our armed forces and the leadership on the civilian side.
In world politics it is better to be feared than loved. Joe Biden is neither loved nor feared. He is only known for what he is a foolish senile old man who has been a fool since the day he entered the Senate.The only thing he seems good for is corruption.
S. Meyer: The only thing [the Bidens] seem good for is corruption.
***
You have a point. The Bidens seem pretty good at corruption. In our government it seems to be spreading like rust on cast iron in a heavy rain. No institutions are untouched.
It has been reliably reported that the President “overruled” his generals regarding the timing and manner of the US withdrawal from Afghanistan. While not much has been written to this point regarding the advice of the intelligence community, I believe it would be unlikely for both the DNI AND military chiefs to disagree on how the withdrawal should proceed. I find it totally conceivable that President Biden may have overruled BOTH the advice from the Joint Chiefs AND the intelligence community. If so, he needs to speak to the nation to say WHY he did so; he should not leave this to his press secretary, SecDef, SecState, or DNI to explain. In my judgment, SecDef and SecState should resign, and so should SecHomelandSecurity for his failures to responsibly handle immigration/border enforcement.
I am not sure how we should know this one way or the other. You talk about resignations. The entire Biden Administration including the VP should resign.
Resign and then spukku on PBS if they had any honor.
Instead they will eat ice cream cones like a gathering of village idiots herded to the parlor by their handlers.
They are democrats. There is no honor, morality or common sense.
Look at NYS. Cuomo resigned. He should never have been governor. But, look at who is running to take his place. As bad as Cuomo was, the killer of thousands of seniors, the others in the wings are far worse. That is what the Democrats have to offer. It’s frightening.
You’re doing a hell of a job, Cuomie!
?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4seTYy2bTeg
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4548480/katrina-10-years-later-brownie-heck-job
I guess you are still crawling around on the floor and never learned to speak. Don’t worry lots of things crawl around on their bellies.
“Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley told reporters less than four weeks before the Taliban entered Kabul that the local military was fully capable of defending Afghanistan from the insurgent Islamic terrorist militia.”
***
This Miley person is a hoot. The jokes keep coming. I bet he is popular with the Taliban.
Think about it. The unarmed persons that entered the capitol where no one was killed, except for one of the protesters who may have been murdered, was General Milley’s greatest success. Milley wasn’t there. He was boning up on CRT.
He is succeeding in making the American military a laughing stock.
I think Miley is auditioning for a spot on SNL.
How about Mr. Ed the talking horse only Milley is smaller in stature and has bigger ears.
To me he resembles the back part of Mr. Ed. Acts like it too. Lots of horse manure in government these days.
“WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden and other top U.S. officials were stunned on Sunday by the pace of the Taliban’s nearly complete takeover of Afghanistan”
****
Really? That’s what happens when you spend more time having your military celebrate Pride Month and Black Lives Matter rather than preparing for battle.
That’s what happens when you have a senile Commander in Chief.
Meanwhile the Navy can’t sail the oceans without bumping into things and each other . But they are up to date on recognizing ‘microaggressions’, whatever in the hell they are. No wonder Musk is prepared to rocket to Mars. This place is a mess.
But Pelosi says Biden is “to be commended” proving only that Biden is not the only senile leader in Washington.
One more time:
The Republican National Committee was caught attempting to quietly erase history on Sunday when a page on GOP.com praising former President Donald Trump’s “historic peace agreement with the Taliban” was deleted as Afghanistan fell to the Taliban.
The Washington Post’s Dave Weigel first noticed the apparent takedown, which an RNC spokesperson later billed as a routine update to the website.
“How quickly can the politics around Afghanistan change? Here’s a section on the RNC’s website in June; click it now, and you get a 404 error.” Weigel added alongside an image of the dated page.
Hours later, RNC spokesperson Mike Reed said the site’s page was missing due to the GOP operation launching a new website and the old content not being carried over.
“This is so dishonest,” Reed tweeted. “We launched a new website last week… some of the old posts haven’t been carried over yet. Go look… all blog/research pieces from years ago aren’t there. But good try attempting to divert attention from the folks actually in charge of this disaster.”
Additionally, on Sunday evening, Trump called for Biden to “resign in disgrace” over his role in withdrawing troops from Afghanistan.
“It is time for Joe Biden to resign in disgrace for what he has allowed to happen to Afghanistan, along with the tremendous surge in COVID, the Border catastrophe, the destruction of energy independence, and our crippled economy,” Trump declared in a statement. “It shouldn’t be a big deal, because he wasn’t elected legitimately in the first place!”
Notably, as the situation quickly unravels in Afghanistan, many Republicans are already flipping on positions about withdrawing troops from the region held only months ago.
“The Biden administration ordered the U.S. Embassy in Kabul to destroy all American flags before they depart.”
***
Next he will do the same with American flags in Washington DC.
No problem. He and his staff have lots of Pride and BLM flags instead to put on the poles and around the George Floyd Monument [formerly the Washington Monument].
This is what can happen when local governments lose the will to enforce the law. Somebody will.
https://www.king5.com/article/news/crime/lakewood-michael-scott-campbell-catalytic-converter-murder-kidnapping/281-c222b3cb-bd46-44e6-bff0-73617619a85c
Nice example of what’s happening on the ground in the US right now. Others & I believe that the American hating Marxist Commie Biden/Dim/Rinos have been Fermenting rage to create a Powder Keg among the public so some 3 letter agency like the PFBI types can pull off another even far more massive False Flag in the next few months to blame on Loyal Americans supporting the US Constitution then when the 3 letter agencys/ when they helped/aided blow the the 1st World Trade Center Bldg, OKC, Framing the militia in Michigan Gov fake kidnapping & the 1/6/2021 False Flag by the PFBI/Pantifa/PQ, PBLM, etc.,.
The only winning move most of us see is for everyone to remain completely peaceful but speak out loudly in private & publc that those Aholes are out to Kill & Enslave us all that are left.
Ph you American hating Marxist Commie Biden/Dim/Rino supporting idiots. Hat tip to Sen Joe the Tail Gunner, he was mostly correct, one Commie is one to many it still seems the case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCJ_ywoqdbs
On again Live right now & 24/7 repeat at Banned.Video. Wake Up & Say Not No But Hell No! Speak Out In Public Peacefully Now or be Ready to GO To Their Commie “Green Zone” Prison Camps.
https://www.newswars.com/
Talk about senile: Reagan had symptoms of Alzheimer’s Disease while still in office, which killed him, and which Nancy and his staff helped hide from the public.
Oky1– Good point. “Blacklisted by History” demonstrates McCarthy was mostly correct. Insofar as Hollywood goes current behavior suggests he grossly understated the problem.
I ask this question to everyone, where did anyone see all the protest across the US yesterday? I saw some of them, the protesters that showed up up for them even though Google/Facebook/Twitter/Youtube, etc is banning everyone & everything.
Over 2500 showed up at the OKC Okla Capital.
Mind you, none of the experts in finance, medical, etc., I’m listening to were not there but are working on these same related problems with whats left of this collapsing govt.
Buckle up.
The president of the United States is on vacation now and will address the media and the nation once he gets back to the office on Wednesday.
This is not a joke.
Anon: ” The president of the United States is on vacation now and will address the media and the nation once he gets back to the office on Wednesday. This is not a joke.”
***
Yes it is. The Taliban and most of the rest of the world are having belly laughs.
A joke is what we get when the election is stolen and the courts cower.
More great comedy in the works.
Yes and one would think it WAS a joke, but it is a true statement. The president of the United States has not been seen since Thursday, is hiding out at Camp David with NO press, has NO public events on his vacation schedule tomorrow and he “may” get around to addressing the nation in a “few days”…..
And Biden is blaming Trump!! An appalling lack of leadership.
China is getting a great return on the millions it funnelled to the Biden Crime Family. It’s disgusting what a greedy, corrupt sellout Joe Biden really is.
No doubt the American hating Marxist Commie Biden/Dim/Rino’s left to the Taliban Planes/Coppers, Trucks & Humvees with a full tank of $100+ a gallon fuel paid for by the US Taxpayer to Halliburton.
Those Aholes Love Us Long Time! Not! LOL.
Even more of a joke:
Biden Press Secretary Jen Psaki was asked for comment about Afghanistan.
Here the actual automated response: “I will be out of the office from August 15th-August 22nd.”
“The president of the United States is on vacation now . . .”
Translation: He’s having an extended “senior moment” and the drugs are losing their efficacy.
The first American communist leader was “Crazy Abe” Lincoln who ignored and nullified the Constitution in order to forcibly impose the first precept of communism, the elimination of classes in society. Lincoln violated the Constitution in many multiple ways in order to end slavery which should have been accomplished using legal means such as advocacy, competition, boycotts, divestiture, etc. Nothing Lincoln did should have been done. Everything Lincoln and his successors did was unconstitutional and illegitimate. Everything Lincoln did is unconstitutional and illegitimate to this day. Freed black slaves could not become citizens upon the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation, as the Naturalization Act of 1802 required citizens to be “…free white person(s).” America must, by law and morality, be without slavery today, and America must be without the illegal alien freed slaves and their descendants. Crime does not pay…or does it?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Timeline of “Crazy Abe” Lincoln and Karl Marx
– Lincoln born: February 12, 1809
– Marx born: May 5, 1818
– Marx publishes a book about Emancipation: 1843
– Marx expelled from France as a radical: 1845
– Lincoln elected to US House: 1846
– Marx publishes the Communist Manifesto: February 1848
– Marx is a contributor to the New York Tribune (Lincoln’s favorite newspaper), 1851-1861
– Lincoln runs for U.S. Senate vs. Douglas, famous Lincoln-Douglas debates occur: 1858
– Lincoln becomes US President: 1860
– Civil War Starts: 1861
– Emancipation Proclamation: January 1, 1863
____________________________________
“Long before 1848, German radicals had begun to arrive in Illinois, where they quickly entered into the legal and political circles in which Lincoln traveled. One of them, Gustav Korner, was a student revolutionary at the University of Munich who had been imprisoned by German authorities…
…
“Within a decade, Korner would pass the Illinois bar, win election to the legislature and be appointed to the state Supreme Court. Korner and Lincoln formed an alliance that would become so close that the student revolutionary from Frankfurt would eventually be one of seven personal delegates-at-large named by Lincoln to serve at the critical Republican State Convention in May 1860, which propelled the Springfield lawyer into that year’s presidential race.”
…
– International Socialist Review
NEWSFLASH
AFGHANISTAN FALLS TO THE TALIBAN
George W. Bush’s crowning achievement crashed and burned today (thanks, George).
I think Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein and Maxine Waters should make a fact-finding trip to Afghanistan (don’t lose your heads, ladies).
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Perhaps a federal judge in Afghanistan will tell the Taliban to:
– Give Afghanistan to women, freed slaves, homosexuals, transgenders and foreigners
– Pass the 19th Amendment and “Reconstruction Amendments”
– Allow abortion and propel Afghanistan’s fertility rate into a “death spiral”
– Import the population from foreign countries
– Allow freed slaves to vote for benefits, entitlements and “free stuff” from other people’s money
– Redistribute “free stuff” and largesse to all parasites
– Open the borders completely to foreign invaders
– Provide Universal Basic Income (UBI) to all lazy, dependent parasites
– Establish affirmative action, quotas, food stamps, forced busing, social services, SNAP, WIC, TANF, HAMP, HARP, HUD, HHS, “Fair Housing” laws, “Non-Discrimination” laws, gynocentric divorce laws, Muhammadcare, Social Security, Medicare, etc., etc., etc.
– Turn the education of Afghan children over to rabid, slavering, parasitic, ineffective communist teacher unions and radical feminists
– Tear down all statues of Muhammad
The Taliban has a lot on its plate, no?
Thank God for these judges. The Bidn ad min is letting in anyone and sending Covid infectw migrants intp the interior t9 b3c9me super spreaders inred states this 8s an impeachable offense.
Biden has lied throughour his term as president. He and Fauci criticize any conservative event as spreading the virus.
No wordsbon Obamas birthday party border issues Texas Democrats who flew to DC and last years rioters.
Honestly, this is not about race or heritage at all. The important difference is felonious criminal vs law-abiding Citizens. Everyone belongs to one of those 2 categories. When a significant percentage of traffic across the Border is criminals and drugs then we have me—in Santa Barbara County, CA—mourning multiple friends who were MURDERED in cold blood! God bless the precious souls of #MarlonBrumfield and #MarilynPharis!!! Horrendous policies designed to weaken our security and our neighborhoods killed my friends!
You spelled Fauxi wrong.
Important issue indeed. Just not so fast, for, I quote from the ruling:
” The court stays the applicability of this opinion and order for 7 days to allow the federal government time to seek emergency relief at the appellate level”
I guess they shall do it…..
Thanks
A step, baby step perhaps, to emigration reform that mitigates immigration reform and collateral damage at both ends of the bridge and throughout. We should probably close and end planned parent/hood facilities and practices, and reverse the progress of dysfunctional social choices, if external population replacements are not forthcoming.
Court decisions don’t count for much with these people when they are contrary to what they want to do which, at the moment, seems to be the destruction of this country.
NEWSFLASH
George W, Bush is on Suicide Watch.
“It’s the [fundamentals], stupid.”
– James Carville
_____________
The judicial branch has no authority to legislate or execute regarding immigration. The APA is unconstitutional and subversive, as were General Secretary Roosevelt, his comrade, Alger Hiss and their ilk, American communists. Congress, under the duress and coercion of General Secretary Roosevelt, had no authority to abdicate and deliver the power of Congress and the President to unelected regulators and, subsequently, to the judicial branch. The judicial branch has no power to amend the Constitution and amendments to the Constitution cannot be legislated. The APA must have been immediately struck down by the judicial branch. Nature abhors a vacuum. In the absence of legislation, the executive branch has the power on immigration.
________________________
Article 1, Section 8
The Congress shall have the power…To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization,…
You are right. The court is telling the administration that it has to follow the laws enacted by Congress, not Presidential Fiat. Nothing more, nothing less. You need to enter this country LEAGLY. What a novel idea for the this administration to follow.
At least there is one grownup in the room. The border is out of control. I strongly disagree with the 13,000 number. It is far greater than that. The Cartel has taken the agenda because of weak and virtually non-existent U.S. leadership. It has been more than long enough for comprehensive legislation for immigration. What I fear and what appears to be the case, immigrants are political pawns and their true wellbeing is unimportant.
Who wouldn’t break down the doors for all the free stuff? Who cares if they have COVID? Who cares if many bring no work skill or if they have a criminal background? How is the border patrol determining drug runners? Human traffickers?
No honest American is against proper and well considered legal immigration, even if that number is increased. For the politicians who care less about border security, they should remove their fences, take the locks off their homes and leave the keys in their cars. That is what they are doing to the citizens.
This crisis is a direct result of weak leadership. If it is not, then there is capricious motive, which is most likely.
I agree. It must be a typo. I think 1,300,000 is closer.
I agree with EM. The 13,000 number cannot be right. All unaccompanied minors have been let in. As I understand it, all families with minor children have also been let in. It is astonishing that there is not a clear official statement about how many people have been allowed in.
The judge probably threw Ole Joe a lifeline after airing the Mayorkas recording. Now he has an excuse to return to Trump’s rules and tell the socialist running the show he has no recourse.
What goes around, comes around. Just wait until McConnell becomes Majority Leader in 2024/25
I WISH!!. McConnell will continue caving to Democrats like Ryan and Boehner before him.
McConnell is the best Parliamentarian out there. He runs rings around Shumer and the other people.