In covering the motions hearing last week in the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse, I noted a surprising comment from Judge Bruce Schroeder that he had “spent hours” with the Wisconsin gun law and could not state with certainty what it means in this case. The statement could effectively knock out the misdemeanor gun possession count — the one count that could still be in play for the jury after the prosecution’s case on the more serious offense appeared to collapse in court. A close examination of that provision reveals ample reason to question not just its meaning but its application to this case.
The unlawful possession of the gun has been a prominent fact cited not only by the prosecutors but the press.
At trial, however, prosecutor Thomas Binger at points seemed to be learning the governing law from Rittenhouse. For example, he pressed Rittenhouse on why he did not just purchase a handgun rather than an AR-15. Rittenhouse replied he could not possess a hand gun at his age. Binger then asked in apparent disbelief that the law allowed him to have an AR-15 but not a handgun and Rittenhouse said yes. Binger then moved on after seemingly drawing out a point for the defense.
The exchange was all the more baffling because it drew attention to the fact that one of Binger’s alleged “victims” was an adult named Gaige Grosskreutz who also decided to bring a handgun to the protests and pointed his .40 caliber Glock at the head of Rittenhouse when he was shot in the arm.
However, the most damaging moment came outside of the presence of the jury when the judge drilled down on the law. He told the prosecutors “I have been wrestling with this statute with, I’d hate to count the hours I’ve put into it, I’m still trying to figure out what it says, what’s prohibited. I have a legal education.” He added that he failed to understand how an “ordinary citizen” could understand what is illegal.
It is hard to understand how the count could be given to the jury without a clear understanding of what it means. It is also hard to instruct a jury on an ambiguous statute. Criminal laws are supposed to be interpreted narrowly. It is called the “rule of lenity” and has been around in the English system for centuries. For example, in 1547, the court was faced with a law making it a felony to steal “Horses, Geldings or Mares.” Given the use of plural nouns, the court ruled that it did not apply to stealing just one horse.
The problem with the Wisconsin statute is not a problem of pluralization but definition. It is not clear that the statute actually bars possession by Rittenhouse. Indeed, it may come down to the length of Rittenhouse’s weapon and the prosecutors never bothered to measure it and place it into evidence.
In Wisconsin, minors cannot possess short-barreled rifles under Section 941.28. Putting aside the failure to put evidence into the record to claim such a short length, it does not appear to be the case here. Rittenhouse used a Smith & Wesson MP-15 with an advertised barrel length of 16 inches and the overall length is 36.9 inches. That is not a short barrel.
Then there is the rest of the statute and ultimately the word “and.” Under Section 948.60(2)(a) (“Possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18”), “[a]ny person under 18 years of age who possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.” That makes Rittenhouse guilty, right?
Well, you then have to look at the subsection (c), which states that “This section applies only to a person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593.”
Since there is no evidence that Rittenhouse violated Section 941.28, he presumably must be in violation of both sections 29.304 and 29.593.. The defense conceded Rittenhouse was in violation of Section 29.593, which requires certification for weapons. However, he is not in violation of section 29.304, entitled “Restrictions on hunting and use of firearms by persons under 16 years of age.” As the title indicates, the section makes it illegal for persons under 16 to use firearms. Rittenhouse was 17 at the time and the prosecution has not challenged that fact.
If Rittenhouse were convicted on that count, it could face a serious challenge on appeal. Indeed, it is curious is why Schroeder would even submit the count to the jury if it is uncontested that Rittenhouse was 17. If that is the correct interpretation of the statute, there would be no way for a jury to reasonably convict Rittenhouse. It is akin to giving the jury a criminal count based on his use of force as a police officer when there is no evidence that he was a police officer.
The defense also offered legislative history to support the narrower interpretation but the prosecution opposed such reliance on material beyond of the language itself. However, that language is difficult to square with the charge and the evidence in this case.
Rittenhouse is obviously facing other counts. However, on that count, the question comes down to the “and.” To paraphrase Johnnie Cochran from the O.J. Simpson trial, if that clause “doesn’t fit, you must acquit.”
118 thoughts on “Was Rittenhouse’s Possession of the AR-15 Unlawful?”
Remember, an AR-15 style weapon is a rifle with low recoil. It is NOT a fully automatic weapon. It’s light and easy to fire. It is NOT a military weapon. It doesn’t matter if a gun “looks scary”. It could be pink with purple sparkly unicorn stickers and still shoot the same.
Wisconsin failed to provide law and order. Its political leaders pulled law enforcement back, making them stand down as BLM and Antifa looted, rioted, and committed arson. This is why so many of us refused to comply with demands to support BLM.
Business owners quite literally saw their livelihoods go up in smoke, in one of the few correct applications of the word “literally”. Crime was rampant.
When there is no law enforcement, citizens are on their own.
This is what happens when people have to cobble together their own form of law enforcement.
Democrat leadership created an unchecked crime and arson spree. Then it prosecuted someone who allegedly only fired upon people who attacked him. Yet they shirk acknowledging and apologizing for the role they played.
The message I got out of this is that Democrats would loose criminals to prey upon your neighborhood, refuse to prosecute them, release them from jail early, but they will prosecute YOU if you defend yourself.
I tend to agree that the Judge could easily decide that the weapons possession charge fails in meeting all the evidentiary elements and their logical connectors A OR (B AND C). That would be somewhat tragic, as I assume the age of 16-18 presumes a rural setting where there is adult supervision of firearms use, not urban and suburban youth taking up firearms without any adult supervision.
The legislative draftsmanship is somewhat evasive of purpose. That makes it hard to interpret. It also may be archaic and in need of update.
The ideal law for what happened in Kenosha would be a firearms restriction built into any Declaration of Civil Disturbance, whereby the only persons allowed to be carrying firearms in a Zone of Civil Disturbance would need to be pre-approved, licensed carriers displaying their license, or sworn law enforcement. Property owners and private security would be able to get pre-approval in most cases.
I would certainly hope that no law would be issued that would prevent a private citizen from carrying or having their firearm (licensed) in their possession or car during a civil disturbance. That would be exactly when a private citizen would need their fire-arm for protection. Even if police are responding to the disturbance, they cannot be everywhere at once. A person has a right to be able to defend themselves and their loved ones anytime and anywhere. There you see the problem in trying to enact a law that covers every eventuality.
An individual is a person, as one of the “people,” at the age of 18.
The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
The right of minors to keep and bear arms may be infringed and denied.
Minors are not of majority, minors are not adults, and minors are, therefore, not people, for legal purposes.
Congress and State shall write no law which infringes on the right of the people (i.e. humans 18 and older) to keep and bear arms.
Laws that infringe, in any way, on that right, are unconstitutional; it is an exercise in futility to debate or propagate such an unconstitutional law.
You would know from listening to the 9 Justices hearing the NY State case that the right to bear arms is not absolute, and that restrictions may be imposed for sake of public safety. Do you have any friends who own a Howitzer?
“…SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED….”
The right to keep and bear arms is not qualified by the Constitution and is, therefore, absolute.
The Constitution holds dominion in America, not courts, not judges.
Courts exist merely to assure that actions comport with statutory and fundamental law.
No court has any power to legislate, modify legislation, legislate through “interpretation,” or infringe the right to keep and bear arms.
The problem for the criminal judicial branch is that Americans may possess a copy of the Constitution and they can all read.
The only issue in need of resolution, is when the court you reference is impeached and convicted for denial of constitutional rights, abuse of power, usurpation of power, dereliction, subversion, defection and treason, and when those judges or Justices go to jail.
“…courts…must…declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void.”
“…men…do…what their powers do not authorize, [and] what they forbid.”
“[A] limited Constitution … can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing … To deny this would be to affirm … that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.”
– Alexander Hamilton
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
> Well, you then have to look at the subsection (c), which states that “This section applies only to a person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593.”
> Since there is no evidence that Rittenhouse violated Section 941.28, he presumably must be in violation of both sections 29.304 and 29.593..The defense conceded Rittenhouse was in violation of Section 29.593, which requires certification for weapons. However, he is not in violation of section 29.304
Well that’s fun.
not (in_compliance_with 304 and 593) — not ((in_compliance_with 304) and (in_compliance_with 593)) — not (true and false) — not false — true — that’s a paddlin’
(not in_compliance_with) 304 and 593 — (not in_compliance_with 304) and (not in_compliance_with 593) — (not true) and (not false) — false and true — false — he’s fine
Order of operations matters.
This shit is why any of us programmers not parenthesizing complex logic gets a paddlin’. Sure in our case the operator precedence is formally defined, but that still doesn’t mean people reading the code will apply it correctly.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people [18+] to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
Yes. “Well regulated” in 1790-speak meant “supervised” — as in a Militia Captain was responsible for keeping firearms out of the hands of drunkards, the mentally ill, the senile, etc. The thing we need is a modernized concept of supervised use by a responsible adult with leadership qualities.
The law, fundamental, says, “…the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed,” no matter any and all previous thoughts and ideas expressed.
Any other statements do not bear and have no weight or force.
A boy becomes a person, as part of the people, at the age of 18.
My guess would be that the Founders meant that all Americans should be ready to deploy as “Minutemen” on a moment’s notice, and to join the militia of their choice – I would never join Karl Marx or Alhysteria O’crazio Corkhead’s militia.
Who does the Militia Captain report to?
“Was Rittenhouse’s Possession of the AR-15 Unlawful?”
To ask is to answer the question. Possession of firearms by any “fascist” should be unlawful. Facts or law be damned, anyone who disagrees with a tenet of wokeism qualifies as such.
Tell you what, sweet, tolerant, morally superior lefties. When BLM or their ANTIFA cohorts come to burn down your business (or home) in the name of social justice, flash your BLM sign and all will be ok. No need for vigilantes such as Kyle Rittenhouse to be around.
This trial is another example of how the MSM and leftists (being redundant here) hate ordinary Americans in the middle of the country. Constantly telling ordinary Whites how wicked they are is not a recipe for social peace.
Leftists should welcome the opportunity to be rid of us, right? We’re standing in the way of their mullticult, leftist utopia.
I want a divorce!
You see guys the answer to all this type stuff is simple,easy & very logical.
From now on we call bullets, knives, rocks, etc., they’re all vaccines, like the pistol or rifle are a syringe & guys like Kyle are Doctors without a white lab coats.
That way everyone could claim if someone is harmed/k*lled they can claim it was just an Experimental Vaccine like Pfizer & others have done over the decades & there will be No Liability since Reagan/1986 , none of those pesky delays/expense doing double blind study groups, long term safety studies & billions will be made no doubt.
Question, is what I just typed sarcasm?
Antonio, I’m doubting you even know what the word fascist means. For the lowbrow frustrated types, you can just throw a word around and not care whether it’s accurate or meaningful. Is this your idea of contributing to what is right? If I were you the only thing I would burn to the ground is your platform to improve the world.
If I ever have a self defense case with an unlawful weapons possession I always request to bifurcate the charge. It’s akin to bifurcating no driver license charge in a dui case. The jury should be focused on the Main charge and not bootstrap a conviction on the belief that “well he shouldn’t have been driving”. The prosecutor in this case is trying to bootstrap the murder charge by arguing that “well he shouldn’t have had a gun in the first place. The real problem that I see is that the statute only applies to juveniles, but he’s being charged as an adult. I can’t see how that squares with the rule of lenity.
The prosecution’s case is not based upon reality, it is actually based upon the Prosecution’s predilection, that Rittenhouse “should not have even been in the place he was in that night. No problem, with all the looters, rioters, and those starting fires and trying to harm Rittenhouse. In the Prosecution’s mind, they had every right to be there and do whatever they wanted to do to destroy the City.
This is what woke leftist prosecutors do in the new leftist America.
Make all guns legal for those over age 16 to carry whether concealed or out front. Shouldn’t aim at anyone.
If only the Wisconsin Governor had authorized the Police & their State’s National Guard Militia to do their jobs or if the Gov would have accepted Prez Trump’s offer to send in Nat’l Guard, or if Trump would have said Ph U to his advisers & grabbed himself by his puzzy & sent the Nat’l Guard into Kenosha on his own the 1st or 2nd Night of Mass Burning/Looting/Raping/Robbing & bought things back under control people like Kyle Rittenhouse would not likely even been there on the 3rd Night.
Here in Tulsa & OKC the Dim’s/Rino’s Antifa/BLM street troops tried to pull that Riot/Looting, etc., crap during the same time frame & our Gov did call in the State Guard/LEO Militia & the Riots were all shut down at the 1st sign of non-peacful protests.
President can NOT send in National Guard troops… they are controlled by each state’s governor! President can offer troops, he can offer assistance but each governor is free to say NO which they did all summer while they watched their cities burn.
President can NOT send in National Guard troops
That cant be right. Leftists keep telling me President Trump refused to call in the NG Jan 6
Generally surprised by the going trial, especially the handling of digital media, from a standard of evidence perspective. When any party does any ‘enhancing’ to digital media, why are they not required to provide the complete set of information (software, algorithm, parameters) so the other parties can reproduce the result from the original evidence. To check if something if something was added manually or a ‘goldilocks’ approach was taken (run your media through many different programs, algorithms, parameters and then select the one best for your goal).
We have a right under the Second Amendment to arm bears. They were part of our militias.
This gun was not too short. He should not get subjected to a jury verdict on any gun charge.
The jury should acquit on all charges. Those guys who attacked him and are alive should be charged with crimes.
Yes, all bears should be armed!
All roads lead to Trump? It is hard to find ONE topic that some folks inevitably insert their hatred for Trump, even when it has nothing to do with him. Reminds me of grading seventh grade essays. A continuous stream of “off topic” in red along the margins.
With every day Trump becomes stronger – without doing a single thing.
By hook and crook the left has taken power.
And they have failed.
We can endlessly debate the merits of Trump or his policies.
What is beyond debate is that what we have now is FAR WORSE.
By seizing power in 2020, the left has made it possible to compare their own governance with that of the hated Trump,
and they are losing that comparison badly.
No matter where you evaluate Trump – what we have now is much worse.
OK, Johnny Boy, what we have now is the direct and proximate result of Trump and his failures of leadership. Joe Biden got handed the worst economy since the Great Depression, and those in alt-right media who indoctrinate the faithful like you, like to somehow blame Joe Biden for not turning around the dumpster fire Biden was handed in less than one year’s time. Inflation is the inevitable result of an economy trying to recover from a pandemic in which factories either shut down or cut back on production because of lower consumer demand. Once consumer demand starts picking up, which it has done in a dramatic fashion, there is inevitably a lag time in catching up with stocking supplies that weren’t produced because of low consumer demand. Supply chain problems are also the foreseeable result. What those who serve up the daily lies you like to believe ignore is the fact that Trump was handed a booming economy. His incompetence turned that into a disaster for America: unnecessary deaths because the egomaniac you worship downplayed COVID and lied about it because it made him look bad, record unemployment and businesses, especially restaurants, that couldn’t recover. 130,000 Americans died just due to Trump and his lying. THAT’s Trump’s legacy.
There is no “Left” that “has taken” or seized power. The American people voted out the worst person ever to occupy the White House. So you want to do comparisons? How about beginning with comparing what Trump was handed and screwed up with what Biden was handed? Let’s start there. What we have now IS worse than what Trump started with, and that’s in inconvenient fact you can’t lie your way out of. And, the problems Joe Biden was handed were caused by Trump, another inconvenient fact. Blaming Joe Biden for not being able to snap his fingers and make it all better immediately is disingenuous, and Republicans know better, but they reel in suckers like you who don’t understand economics.
Why are Schiff and Swalwell still allowed to oversee the Intelligence Community?
Why isn’t Tony Fauci in prison?
Why do Biden and Fauci now have Big Bird and Sesame Street leading a propaganda campaign for an experimental vaccine directly to children telling them they need it to keep themselves and their grandma and entire neighborhood safe?
Why is Joe Biden’s approval rating in the toilet?
Why is Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren being sued for asking a private company to essentially censor, ban, ‘burn books’ she doesn’t believe should be read by people here in America, land of the free?
Natacha, my Russian disinformation buddy, what problems did Biden “inherit” from Trump? And, how were these so called “inherited” problems solved by Biden? After all, isn’t the job of the new President to do better? That is what Biden’s campaign slogan was “build back better.” How are things better?
Biden inherited Operation Warp Speed, secured national borders, an energy independent country, a national economy recovering from lockdowns, and foreign enemies like China feared us.
At least we have Dave Chappelle to make us laugh
Now everyone should know when to use mustard on fish & when not to.
Sorry, reminds me of an ole jokes from my misspent youth to early older age.
Uh, No, Estovir. “Operation Warp Speed” was mostly a nothingburger. All your fat hero did was divert taxpayer money to drug companies to purchase additional equipment to produce vaccine faster after the scientists came up with a winning formula. And, he agreed to purchase a certain quantity of vaccine even if it wasn’t successful. That’s it. He had nothing to do with the science behind mRNA development. He had NO plan for: 1. logistics–no collection of data on where the super-cold freezers the Pfizer vaccine needed were distributed throughout the country; 2. sufficient quantities of PPE and syringes–there were shortages of both; 3. mobliizing people quallified to administer vaccine; 4. prioritization of those to receive the vaccine first, like the elderly, health care workers, medically fragile people. Biden did these things, and it has saved lives. Your hero and those enablers who lie for him like to pretend that he did something unusual–they like to claim that he someone proved scientists wrong by shortenubg the usual period for vaccine development and approval, which he didn’t. None of the vaccines is fully approved for all age groups. Full testing requires years to make sure that there are no unforseen long-term consequences and to determine how long immunity lasts and whether there is cross-immunity for variant strains. EUA for children 5-11 was just obtained a few days ago.
The US achieved energy independence under OBAMA, not Trump, which is something he and his media enablers love to lie about, even though they have been corrected numerous times by non-politicians who are experts in energy economics.
The borders were never “secure”. Haven’t ever been and still aren’t. What we don’t have right now is crimes against humanity being committed by kidnapping children to serve as a deterrent against migrants. Illegal immigration is a problem that NO administration has been able to control, mainly because Republican business owners love the pool of uneducated, unskilled workers who don’t file for unemployment, overtime or make workers compensation claims. It’s cheap labor, and they love it, while simultaneously complaining about illegal immigration because it appeals to the blue-collar Trump types.
The lockdowns the US is attempting to recover from ARE Trump’s fault–his lying and downplaying of the risk and seriousness of COVID caused at least 130,000 unnecessary deaths, according to Dr. Deborah Birx. Consumer demand went down when things had to be shut down and while Trump went on his daily lying fest, trying to dominate “news conferences” to claim that COVID was under control or no serious threat, instead of allowing the doctors to tell us the truth. And, he lied about things like Hydroxychloroquine being an effective treatment. Biden has started turning things around, but the Republicans are working overtime to try to thwart everything he does. Steve Bannon admitted as much when he was arrested for contempt of Congress.
China, as well as most other countries, laughed at the fat orange fool pretending to speak for the American people. Keep on deluding yourself into believing that Trump did a good job at anything. Everything he touches dies, according to Rick Wilson’s book. You should read it. Rick Wilson is a lifelong Republican and election strategist.
You just can’t argue with people who don’t see that Biden is a dementia patient on his last legs. That covid is an excuse that started under Trump when he was deceived and snowballed by Fauci and Birx and China paid Americans to make this plandemic worse than it needed to be. Thanks to people like Cuomo who helped spread it by placing sick back into nursing homes and killing many in process. Scaring people by counting every traffic accident and murder as covid death and shutting down great economy.
Doing everything backwards in combating covid making people sicker. Example: when FL opened up state and let sunshine in and people live normally rates began to drop. When given monoclonal antibody availability dropped even lower. IF things like ivermectin had been used initially as Pres Trump suggested thousands would be alive today. Hospitals won’t use things like Ivermectin despite doctors relating fantastic results initially with it and other things like that. This is why so many health care workers won’t get vaccine.
Joe Biden ABANDONED Americans in Afghanistan. Didn’t care. Wouldn’t let/help but hindered private efforts to get them out. Has a general who committed treason by offering to warn enemy if we were going to do preemptive strike. Won’t fire him, but applauds him. Plans to reward law breakers with taxpayer money and make them MILLIONAIRES while American citizens can barely make ends meet with rising grocery prices and gas price increases. He shut down our own energy making efforts making us dependent on foreign nations again for fuel when we were selling oil to other countries.
He lets in people without vetting across what use to be our borders. People who will need many billions of dollars to care for when we are in debt over our eyeballs. WE KNOW there are terrorists in this millions of people coming in. People who hate us and will hurt us. And gangs who bring in drugs and deal in sex trafficing of children and women. We will be paying for their care and health bills as they do their dirty business in our country. Making millionaires of them for breaking the law. Yet these people who have NOT had access to good health care are EXEMPT from the mandates that are destroying the lives and jobs of Americans. And governors are forbidden from even knowing how many of these people are secretly put in their state and how he needs to plan to care for them or budget for them.
AND President plans to offer free college to law breakers and their children while Americans struggle to pay everyday bills much less college. And you have the gall to think for one second that any of this is Trump’s fault. I guess he gave Joe dementia. Since you missed all the above, your clue should be the TENS OF THOUSANDS who gather at football stadiums, race car tracks and other places and in UNISON chant “LET’S GO BRANDON” and I ‘m certain even you know what that is code for!
Natacha, I bet you look real cute in a brown shirt, a leather skirt, an armband, fashionable knee high, high heel leather boots, and to top it off, of course a riding crop.
Hey Natacha where is Boris? You are horribly ill-equipped to discuss this issue on any serious level. I have a parrot that like you, says a lot of things without understanding one word. You sound like a fool if none of that processed above.
“Joe Biden got handed the worst economy since the Great Depression . . .”
Poor Joe and his nihilistic, green-new-deal tyrants. They were handed energy independence (and gas prices about $1.50/gallon lower). Then they knee-capped America’s energy industry, have us begging OPEC (yet again), and sent the economy into hyper-inflation.
The pain they are inflicting on the citizenry is intentional.
When demand began picking up and demand went up, the price for fossil fuel went up because production had been cut back due to the pandemic. Production was cut back to keep prices from cratering. People who didn’t have to commute to an office to work and could stay home did so, so demand for gas went way down, along with traffic at restaurants that catered to the office lunch crowd and shopping venues near office complexes. These are economic facts. OBAMA gave us energy independence, not fatso, who lies about it along with his media enablers. Oil prices worldwide went up once demand went up. Prices will stabilize once production meets demand. You don’t come out of a near-depression like the Trump Depression without there being this kind of inflation and issues with the supply-chain. Trump’s incompetence caused the pandemic to be worse than it had to be due to his ego and lack of leadership, so the issue with fuel prices IS his fault.
“OBAMA gave us energy independence . . .”
He did no such thing, with one exception.
That energy independence, i.e., that massive increase in the production of oil and gas, was caused by technological advances made by engineers and managers in the energy industry (e.g., in fracking). Obama’s environmentalist policies harmed the energy industry, e.g., the pipeline industry.
However, he did enact one significant policy that helped domestic energy production. He removed export restrictions, i.e., he got government the hell out of the way. Biden, driven by environmentalist zealots, has done the opposite — with the predictable results.
Correction to the article… Grosskreutz had a .40 caliber Glock, not a 9mm. It would have also been illegal for S&W and the store where the rifle was purchased to sell it as a non-NFA item (short barrel rifle) if the barrel wasn’t indeed 16 inches per the law.
I agree that gun laws are absolutely arbitrary on such design features and function. The fact that Rittenhouse knew the laws tells volumes. Grosskreutz supposedly also knew the laws, as he apparently had at one time a concealed handgun license. At the time of the event, he had either let that expire, or the state of issue had revoked it (this was not made clear during the trial). He was thus illegally carrying a concealed weapon.
also as a convicted felon Grosskreutz was in illegal possession of the the Glock
He does, however, have a prior misdemeanor conviction for intoxicated use of a firearm in Wisconsin, online records show. He received probation in that 2015 case, records reveal.
His arrest and case history from the state Department of Justice is much longer than what you can currently find through online court records. It shows a string of dismissed cases and an expunged felony conviction. That means it can no longer be counted against him.
If Grosskreutz has an expunged felony then he still cannot possess a firearm per federal law. As an attorney, I deal with this issue for clients and the federal government. Unless he has a state pardon he cannot lawfully possess per federal law and the federal court’s interpretation of that statute. Period.
Not exactly. In many instances the felony is later reduced to a misdemeanor and then expunged. Under those circumstances the right is restored. Expungement also does not have a uniform definition is every state. So you have to look to exactly what the state law says.
Be advised that only concerns state law not federal law. While the reduction and/ or expungement allows you to possess under state law the federal statute still precludes it.
Even worse, his license to carry concealed had expired so he was unlawfully carrying regardless.
You are saying, Anonymous, is that Rittenhouse is innocent of the charges leveled against him, although you previously said he was guilty. You can’t stand that, so you search his history to find something to pin on him. Now you are searching his past to find some technicality to charge him with. You don’t care what you discover or if it is even true. You wish to libel the guy. That is a typical leftist tactic. But you don’t look with depth to see if what you say about him holds water. In other words, you will lie, cheat and steal to push your ideology.
That is how Anonymous the Stupid got his label, but you can not run away from it on this generic anonymous or the green anonymous icon you are presently using.
The Left gets flummoxed when confronted with the actual Law…and not the Law they wish was.
They are not flummoxed. They do not care.
The law is whatever those on the left says it is at any given moment.
They have taken us down the rabbit hole.
Rittenhouse crossed a state line to get a chance to shoot someone with his big-boy rifle. He lied. A lot. He lied about being an EMT. He isn’t. All he had was a standard Red Cross first aid course that is offered to the general public and taught in most high school health classes. He’s no more qualified to provide medical care than a member of the general public. He lied about being asked to provide security for a business that was being vandalized. He was never asked to provide security, and the business had not been vandalized.
Rittenhouse is just a fat little crybaby loser who has spent too much time playing video games and wanted a chance to compensate for his obesity and general foppishness by shooting people with his phallically-symbolic assault rifle. Two are dead as a result. He went there looking to shoot someone to compensate for his lack of manliness. That ridiculous “judge” wouldn’t let the prosecution show a video in which Rittenhouse expressed his desire to shoot someone. That stupid “judge” refused to allow the prosecution to call the dead and injured “victims”. That “judge” has done as much as possible to skew the jury toward acquittal, but the first question should be: why did he cross a state line to go there in the first place? He lied about the reasons. His little performance with the non-tear crying jag was absolutely pathetic. He is a murderer, and has become the darling of the Second-Amendment fanatics. The second question is: do we in America really want those who spend too much time “killing” people in video games to grab weapons and travel out of state to join the fray when there’s a protest that gets out of control? Is that what the Second Amendment is intended to allow?
After Rittenhouse is acquitted he will win a series of civil lawsuits just like Mr. Sandmann did and live a very comfortable life.
You hyperactively defend yourself – your positions – on a regular basis.
Rittenhouse’s person and life were irrefutably under threat.
Self defense is a natural and God-given right.
Rittenhouse had a right to defend himself.
You are corrupted by bias.
You have lost your objectivity, My Dear.
Laws that undermine the Constitution are all tyrannical. The Constitution clearly outlines our rights to be armed.
However, given that the government is operating a post- and extra-constitutional Regime and has been for many decades, the pathetic argument about what Kyle can and cannot do is just another example that this is all theater.
Get angry. Being nice hasn’t helped. Read The Gulag Archipelgo. There are political prisoners in gulags in America, many in D.C. January 6 prisoners, Derek Chauvin (as much as I dislike the tactics of the police, any person can reasonably argue that his conviction was political), and most of the people in prison for drug offenses. Political prisoners, all of them.
Then there is the attack from the Regime against real journalists, such as James O’Keefe. The DNC dictating to the DOJ to have the FBI raid the home and offices of a journalist who has sued the NYT, in conjunction with….The New York Times. The KGB, Stassi etc. couldn’t have done it better. And hardly a peep from the Republican enablers.
I wonder, did any of those Jan 6 political prisoners actually ever READ Solzenitsyn’s GA? If so, perhaps the outcome could have been vastly different. Not sure how many times people can be warned and still think “I will go meekly with the Goons” in hopes that they don’t destroy me? (I just went to a website run by Julie Kelly to collect funds for Jan 6 political prisoners and initially I was very tempted to donate, not because I approve of the complete circus that was Jan 6, but because I hate tyranny. Then I put down my mouse before I clicked “donate” and thought, what if all those people had had the real guts to refuse to go meekly into that good night? Indeed. BTW Trump does not have what it takes to be a leader in these darkest of times. The SOB couldn’t even bother to mention the name of his follower who died on Jan 6, not for over 6 months anyway. That’s not the kind of guy I want to follow.).
But I digress. We are face-to-face with tyranny from the Leftist Democrats (which describes them all. The notion that there are “moderate” Democrats is a lie), with the vast majority of Republicans having abdicated agency of any kind, hence becoming what Lenin called “useful idiots”.
Before anyone gets caught up in “this isn’t real communism/fascism” remember, history doesn’t repeat, IT RHYMES.
I will live free. I don’t know about you other em-effers and I’m tired of caring about ya’ll. Live free. Or be on your knees. Your choice.
Meanwhile, a young man who is a patriot and more of a man than most men today is forced into a show trial. Half the world is laughing at us and the other half is afraid for us and what our descent means for them.
Though I am of the opinion personally that what he did was an incredibly stupid thing to do that ultimately made very little difference, and I wonder why no one older and wiser dissuaded him – there is no question that the laws are spaghetti. Nothing with such potentially damning consequences should be so arcane.
What is it that KR did that was “incredibly stupid” ?
He came to help people and to protect property – these are admirable, not stupid.
The prosecutor in the trial tried to make everything binary – it is not.
Even the proscription against using deadly force to protect property – is not binary.
All justifiable uses of force LESS than deadly force, can escalate to deadly force is they are resisted.
Further property rights do not exist absent the use of force by government or individuals to protect property.
It was clear – both in Kenosha and across the country that law enforcement was not adequate to protect property – and ultimately people.
Throughout the country in the midst of the summer 2020 Riots the police received substantial assistance from private individuals and even militias.
Like it or not that is justified. It is even GOOD. It is not “stupid”.
Aside from the normal attributes of property – property also serves as its own form of protection.
The Castle doctrine arrises from the FACT that our property is understood to function as its own form of protection.
That we can in some instances use deadly force to prevent storming the barriers that ensure our safety.
Kyle’s actions were no more stupidthan those of ordinary police trying to protect citizens from violent and destructive mobs.
Knowing that the prosecutor is a leftist, anti-self defense and that any act of self defense will result in prosecution, it might be stupid to go to that location where there is a risk of having to use deadly force. It is more than likely that the appearance of any rifle in public view of a mob will attract their attention and they may try to disarm you, and you will have to shoot them to retain control of your weapon. This is true even though you are acting entirely within the law. Just because a person has a right doesn’t mean that you should insist on exercising it in every given situation. So, yes, going to a riot with a rifle strung over your shoulder is very stupid.
Eduardo, it is nice to take note of how you think. “it might be stupid to go to that location where there is a risk …”
What you are saying is, let someone else take the risk instead of you, for you believe that is the more thoughtful decision. What do you do when the police aren’t there to protect you or your family. Most thoughtful people don’t run away and leave their families in danger, do you?
I am sure you wouldn’t leave your wife and family in danger. How about your friends or other people? Is it stupid to join the army to protect America? I guess you might say yes, followed by, why would anyone put themselves in that type of danger?
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
I never questioned his right to be there armed with a rifle. All I’m saying is that a person who is alone with a rifle is/ will be a target of the mob. Is that too hard to understand? If you know in advance that certain areas of the country are hostile to the 2nd amendment and armed self defense should you take that into consideration? From what I have seen so far, it seems clear that the results were predictable. 1. KR was forced to use lawful deadly force. 2. Even though what he did was entirely lawful, he faces life in prison to be decided by 12 strangers from Kenosha. Is that a risk that should be weighed before taking that type of action? I think so. Also, your examples are not the equivalent of a risk benefit analysis in this case. He’s not defending his wife, family or friends. He’s not in the military, and Kenosha is not nazi Germany.
“I never questioned his right to be there armed with a rifle.”
My statement didn’t have to do with that right.
Your statement was quite clear as was mine: “What you are saying is, let someone else take the risk instead of you, for you believe that is the more thoughtful decision. What do you do when the police aren’t there to protect you or your family. Most thoughtful people don’t run away and leave their families in danger, do you?”
I think the poem says it all. “First they came for the Jews…”
“All I’m saying is that a person who is alone with a rifle is/ will be a target of the mob. Is that too hard to understand? “
I didn’t say otherwise.
“From what I have seen so far, it seems clear that the results were predictable.”
The results were not predictable. However, bad actors on the left caused the problem and 2 died and one was wounded. KY’s intentions were to do good, not harm The leftists intentions were to do harm.
“Is that a risk that should be weighed before taking that type of action?”
People always weigh risks.
By the way, KY was helping a friend defend his property. When the time comes to defend your family, friends or others, you will have a choice to make. I am glad I have good friends and neighbors.
It is possible that Kyle thought that by having the rifle openly no one would bother him. I know I would avoid anyone with a firearm like that. Or at very least I wouldn’t be picking a fight with them. Not saying that is what he thought but he is young and that may have played into his reasoning. Made him feel safe from that standpoint.
While Kenosha is/was not Nazi Germany, it definitely did not resemble our normal peaceful USA. You are right, the risks have to be weighed, But the risks of inaction for many people are beginning to look greater than the risks of action. Especially true for the young who believe in right and wrong. They aren’t jaded by past experiences.
When the police and the government refuse to keep law and order and abandon the cities to the rage of a crowd who scream to burn the whole thing down… meaning the country, not just whichever city… then citizens at some point HAVE to or will respond in the place of the government. That’s why people like Kyle and his friends were there. Even if they weighed the risks, or understood them, they would probably still have been there. They see right and wrong. Kyle was very naive, thinking by helping anyone and everyone, there was some sort of common bond. I pray he does not have to suffer more for trying to do what was right.
Praying that at some point, some of the government officials will see what is brewing AND choose to avoid it, not by allowing it to continue but by restoring law and order as is their job.
It was incredibly stupid for a green kid to play commando and enter the situation at all. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said in theory, but his actions changed literally nothing, because he is, indeed, a kid, with the foresight and wisdom of someone his age. Though I don’t agree he deserves to rot for all eternity, he probably should go to jail. What you are describing is very much apples to oranges, something else altogether, not a foolish boy making a huge mistake. I guess I’d ask you this: where were the experienced, marksmen, then, standing beside him in solidarity? Huh?
Regardless, yes, it was an incredibly stupid thing for him to do, and he wouldn’t be on trial if he hadn’t. I do believe that a part of him was likely wanting to ‘prove something’. All teens experience that, just not generally to the lethal degrees we’ve seen over the past while.
Stand behind your words: you yourself didn’t ‘cross state lines’ to offer assistance, yourself, no older and wiser people of the mindset did, and I doubt very much that you patrol the streets wherever you live. Get out of the armchair. Many conservatives live there as much as their leftist counterparts, and that doesn’t help, either. Vitriol is not going to change a danged thing. Never has, never will.
People organizing armed neighborhood protection groups during the 2020 riots was not out of the ordinary. They did it in Minneapolis and other states. So the call to come to Kenosha and protect neighborhoods — small businesses that have been attacked and wiped out by the BLM/Antifa thugs — was not exceptional, and Kyle answering that call, since his father lived in that city, was not unusual. The fear of further riots if he is found not-guilty is, I think, overblown for several reasons. This is an issue involving four white guys. There was no police-involved shooting, and no POC was harmed. As much as the Democrats have tried to make this about race, it just wasn’t. It’s about gun control, and to date, no one has rioted and looted over that issue. Given that self-defense was so obvious in this case, and given that the prosecutor had to stoop to unconstitutional ruses to try and make a case, one could argue that the case should never have come this far. But its propaganda value to Democrats is the real point, and the lies being told all across the MSM expose that fact.
Laws have gotten too complex and too numerous for the ordinary citizen to follow.
Shooters face a myriad of jurisdictions regulating them plus the ATF (an enforcement agency) has taken to writing new regulations and enforcing them.
High probability that a gun owner has been in violation of some regulations at any given time.
Probably knowingly, but subject to arrest and an expensive process to fix.
Hard to respect the more arcane gun charges that prosecutors bring.
Sounds like the kind of defense Trump’s lawyers would put up. Sets up the kind of “run out the clock” lawyering Trump has used for most of his adult life.
Another case of TDS. I guess it is incurable.
Sounds like the kind of defense Hillary’s lawyers would put up. Sets up the kind of “run out the clock” lawyering Hillary has used for most of her adult life.
She may not escape Russiagate.
Can we see Trump under oath sit and answer questions for over 11 hours? HRC did.
As despicable as she is – nearly every major controversy in US politics ties directly to Clinton, digging up dirt – even manufacturing it on a political opponent is not a crime.
The crime is that the FBI/DOJ/Obama admin knowingly swallowed this fraud and used it as the basis for “worse than watergate” abuse of federal power.
I find it disturbing that Durham’s indictment’s are having such impact.
There is nothing of consequence Durham has added to what we already knew.
Yet,because Durham has indicted people – more moderates and democrats are facing reality.
by the time Durham gets to Hillary she will be too “ill” to stand trial. Remember how she use to cough uncontrollably and seemed to lose her train of thought as much as Nancy does now and almost as much as Joe does. Some of these antics are used in advance to set up plausible excuses later “just in case needed”.
Putting aside your dislike for Trump momentarily, doesn’t it make sense to you to require laws to be sufficiently clear so as to be able to be understood by the average person?
And further, do you have any reaction at all to the facts as related by Prof. Turley, which seem to demonstrate that the law in question does not apply here?
Is it true that Trump did that? When? What were the circumstances? People blame everything on Trump, so I’m just checking.
The State may have presented a better case if they had brought in Lionel Hutz of “The Simpsons” fame.
Possession is 9/10th’s of the law. What law?
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