Federal Court Rules Professors Can Be Punished for Disruptive or Uncollegial Speech

In my new book, The Indispensable Right: Free Speech in an Age of Rage, and a recent academic work, I discuss a new rationale being used by administrators to punish free speech: threatening academic collegiality or campus tranquility. I was discussing the Fourth Circuit case of Porter v. Board of Trustees of North Carolina State Universitywhich was unfortunately not reviewed by the Supreme Court. Now, as feared, it is being replicated by the Sixth Circuit in Gruber v. Tenn. Tech. Bd. of Trustees.  The result is a new and serious threat to free speech in higher education to curtail speech where it would be “likely to cause disruption” or undermine the “fostering [of] a collegial educational environment.”

The Porter case involved the targeting of a conservative faculty member who opposed diversity views. Given the purging of conservative professors from faculties and the intolerance on our campuses, the use of collegiality to justify disciplinary action is likely to fall more heavily on the dwindling number of conservatives.

However, Gruber involved professors who spoke out against a conservative colleague. As previously addressed by Keith Whittington, the case involved Professor Andrew Donadio, who serves as the faculty advisor for the local chapter of Turning Point USA at Tennessee Tech University.

Donadio was attacked by Professor Julia Gruber and Instructor Andrew Smith who hold strikingly anti-free speech views that are evident in the flyers that they put up around campus denouncing the “hate and hypocrisy” of “Professor Donadio and Turning Point USA.” In addition to saying that his views are “not welcome at Tennessee Tech,” they declared that there should be “no unity with racists” and that “hate speech is not free speech.”

Gruber and Smith are only the latest examples of academics who reject free speech rights for others, but still demand that their own views be protected. Fortunately for them, the free speech community supports free speech regardless of its inherent merits or the hypocrisy of speakers.

Provost Lori Bruce disciplined Gruber and Smith under Policy 600, requiring faculty members “to conduct themselves fairly, honestly, in good faith, and in accordance with the highest ethical and professional standards.”

As with Porter, the use of a lack of collegiality has long been used against those with unpopular views. I previously wrote:

“The lack of collegiality and professionalism has long been shibboleth for those have sought to block minorities and women from appointments. Many objected to the claims of ‘lack of collegiality’ and bad ‘temperament’ raised against figures like Justice Sotomayor when she was nominated for the Court. Indeed, the American Association of University Professors has stressed that collegiality is often a coded or biased basis for discrimination. It cautioned against this use since, “[i]n the heat of making important academic decisions regarding hiring, promotion, and tenure, it would be easy to confuse collegiality with the expectation that a faculty member display ‘enthusiasm,’ or evince ‘a constructive attitude’ that ‘will foster harmony.’” Indeed, collegiality is commonly defined as being “cooperative,” a virtue that is hard to display when you are a dissenting voice on a matter of intense and passionate debate with your colleagues.”

Nevertheless, Sixth Circuit Judges Richard Griffin, Helene White, and Eric Murphy upheld the lower court decision supporting the university:

When deciding whether the plaintiff engaged in protected activity, we first determine whether the action constitutes speech on a matter of public concern, and if it does, we apply the “Pickering balancing test” to determine whether the plaintiff’s interest in commenting outweighs the defendant’s interest as an employer in promoting the efficiency of the public services it performs through its employees. The balancing test considers the manner, time, and place of the expressive action, and the pertinent considerations include whether the action (1) impairs discipline by superiors or harmony among coworkers, (2) negatively affects close working relationships for which personal loyalty and confidence are necessary, (3) impedes performance of the speaker’s duties or interferes with the employer’s regular operations, and (4) undermines the employer’s mission….

TTU does not dispute that the district court properly concluded that the plaintiffs’ speech was a matter of public concern. Even so, as the district also properly concluded, the plaintiffs’ distribution of the flyers was not protected speech because their speech interest was outweighed by TTU’s interest in preventing a disruption to its pedagogical and collegial environment….

At the outset, the “manner” of the plaintiffs’ speech decreased its expressive value and increased TTU’s operational interests. Plaintiffs did not speak in the classroom or through scholarship, where professors’ “rights to academic freedom and freedom of expression are paramount.”

Nor is this a simple case of one professor raising a race-related issue with another or expressing disagreement with a group’s ideology, perhaps one-on-one or in a more private setting. Instead, the plaintiffs posted flyers in an academic building at a time they knew students would be on campus for class and posted an additional flyer the next day. Those flyers were highly likely to cause disruption, and they did so in several ways.

Specifically, the flyers identified Donadio as a “racist college professor” and branded members of Turning Point USA as “racist students.” They stated in bold text that the professor and group’s “hate & hypocrisy are not welcome at Tennessee Tech.” The dissemination of “disrespectful, demeaning, insulting, and rude” messages targeting a colleague and students—regardless of whether some accusations may have had basis in fact—to the entire university community undoubtably threatened to disrupt TTU’s learning environment and academic mission.

For one, flyers that publicly attack a colleague as racist and threaten that the colleague is on the anonymous author’s “list” certainly “impairs … harmony among co-workers.” {Plaintiffs protest that they did not interact with Donadio professionally, so there was no harmony to impair. But even if the professors did not work closely together, they were nonetheless colleagues on TTU’s faculty, and it was not unreasonable for Bruce to conclude that on-campus and public accusations of racism—even between colleagues who did not work together—could cause disruption of the university’s operations.}

Perhaps more critically, by attacking students, the flyers threatened the core of TTU’s educational “mission” and undermined the plaintiffs’ ability to perform their teaching “duties.” The flyers insinuated that, like Donadio, all students who were members of Turning Point USA were racist. The accusations harmed these students’ educations.

For example, one Turning Point USA member, having been deemed a racist, missed class because of the fallout. In addition, the accusations affected the plaintiffs’ effectiveness in the classroom. Students in the club, or those considering joining the club, who were taking courses with Gruber and Smith might reasonably fear the potential treatment they would receive in class due to differing political views. This case is thus factually distinguishable from cases like Pickering, where a teacher was disciplined for writing a letter to a local newspaper criticizing the school district that was “in no way directed towards any person with whom [the teacher] would normally be in contact in the course of his daily work as a teacher.” And most basically, TTU has ‘an interest in fostering a collegial educational environment.’ Permitting professors to circulate flyers with personal attacks on colleagues and students undoubtably undermines that interest.

To be sure, the flyers were quickly collected and affected only a handful of students and professors. But evidence of widespread disruption is not necessary: it was reasonable for Bruce to believe that, had the flyers remained posted, they could have caused far greater disruption.

Lastly, the “place” of the plaintiffs’ speech undermines their interests even further. Even if they did not undertake this speech pursuant to their official duties, they also did not engage in it away from campus as private citizens. Rather than make their claims on their personal Facebook pages or in a local newspaper, they chose to use TTU’s own property as the billboard for their speech. But public employers have greater interest in regulating speech “at the office” (or here on campus) than they do away from the public employers’ property. Indeed, the conclusion that the First Amendment protected the plaintiffs’ speech would mean that TTU remained powerless to remove the flyers off of its property. So this case raises no concern that TTU sought to “leverage” its employment relationship with the plaintiffs to regulate their speech “outside” the context of its university functions.

All told, the Pickering balancing test weighs against the plaintiffs’ speech being protected. The flyers, which attacked a professor and student organization and stated that they were not welcome on campus, created a reasonable threat of disrupting TTU’s academic mission and is the type of speech that a learning institution has a strong interest in preventing. Under the Pickering balancing test, TTU’s interest in preventing a potential disruption to its pedagogical and collegial environment outweighed the plaintiffs’ interest in distributing the flyers. Thus, the plaintiffs’ speech was not protected, foreclosing their First Amendment retaliation claim.

The allowance for censorship and sanctions for speech “likely to cause disruption” would gut free speech protections on campus. The court suggests that the ability of the university to crack down on the speech was magnified by the fact that others might be particularly interested in their views or exposed to them. It is enough that it threatened the tranquility of campus and the collegiality of the faculty.

This week we discussed an analogous position at Harvard where Lawrence Bobo, the Dean of Social Science, rejected views of free speech as a “blank check” and said that criticizing university leaders like himself or school policies are now viewed as “outside the bounds of acceptable professional conduct.”

The refusal of the Court to take the Porter decision was crushing for many of us in the free speech community and academia. Hopefully, Gruber will receive a more favorable review in light of the expanding threat to free speech to “foster a collegial educational environment.”

126 thoughts on “Federal Court Rules Professors Can Be Punished for Disruptive or Uncollegial Speech”

  1. OT: I find it very annoying when people who should know better criticise the NY verdict for the wrong reasons. Michael McConnell is a renowned professor of constitutional law at Stanford. In today’s WSJ he correctly criticises the judge for allowing unanimity to be cobbled together from votes on three alleged unlawful means, as to none of which there need have been even a majority. He then goes on to say that the verdict was inherently absurd because the business records falsification occurred in 2017 and so could not have been intended to influence the election under NYL 17-152. That completely misunderstands the nature of the crime. What Bragg alleged was that in making the false entries in 2017, Trump intended to CONCEAL conspiratorial efforts to influence the election in 2016 through the use of unlawful means in 2016 in violation of NYL 17-152. I do not understand how McConnell could make such an elemental mistake or how the WSJ editors could allow it to be published. Making false claims like this undermines the many legitimate arguments against the verdict.

    1. Daniel – Where did Bragg make the claim that the ex-post facto bookkeeping entries were intended to conceal an earlier conspiracy?
      In any case, how would a silent conspiracy influence an election, which is the crime supposedly committed? “Influencing an election” requires communication of some kind to an electorate

      1. 1. The law in the indictment says conceal.

        2. The alleged conspiracy was to use unlawful means to suppress adverse information.

        1. Daniel, I used to subscribe to WSJ but their news dept became too fluff for me so I cancelled. Recently I read online comments on one of the WSJ’s editorial pages where subscribers voiced disappointment in the WSJ news / front page. It appears that WSJ has new leadership, per the commenters, and that it was more focused on fashion, diet, fads and run of the mill sensational fluff. The editorial page columnists also became predictable and staid with their pieces, e.g. Peggy Noonan, Jason Riley, Wm McGurn, Daniel Henninger, etc. Problem is if one can not rely on the WSJ for first rate journalism, that leaves people like me turning to European outlets like UK Telegraph. They arent that much better.

          Twitter / X has become my go to source especially for the medical research.

          Caveat emptor

          1. Generally, I think the WSJ is pretty good, though I agree with you about some of their columnists, but not Jason Riley, whom I like.

        2. And what were those unlawful means? Anything that happened after the election could bot have been unlawful means of suppressing adverse info to affect the election.
          And a conspiracy to do things after the election same same.

          1. The alleged unlawful means were:

            1. Campaign finance violations;

            2. Other document falsification (such as Cohen’s bank documents to open an account); and

            3. Some kind of tax violation.

            These all were alleged to have occurred in 2016 to influence the election. My point isn’t that any of these are valid; it’s that McConnell misstated the nature of the allegations and so made it easier to challenge his critique of the verdict.

            1. I understand your position i am just adding my own thoughts.

              They want it both ways on the CFV. If Trump paid it, how is it an illegal contribution? If its a reporting violation, again, after the election.

              Business ledgers are not tax documents. They cant be “used” to “conceal” tax fraud because they arent used by the entity supposedly being defrauded.

        3. “The alleged conspiracy was to use unlawful means to suppress adverse information.”

          Wrong

          The payment of daniels to keep her mouth shut was not unlawful means. Period. THAT was the only act which suppressed adverse information. Period. EVERY act after that could only serve to DRAW ATTENTION TO the legal hush money payment.

          Conspiring in 2016 to write false info on a check in 2017 cannot be to suppress adverse info to affect the election

          Conspiring in 2016 to invoice falsely in 2017 cannot be to suppress adverse info to affect the election

          Conspiring in 2016 to falsify taxes in 2017 cannot be a conspiracy to affect the 2016 election.

          So you (and bragg) are alleging that there was a conspiracy before the election to draw attention to the legal hush money payment after the election.

          Even the business entry could not be meant to “conceal” anything. If you want to conceal it, you deal in cash and you record it nowhere.

          There is literally NOTHING about braggs theory that holds water.

    2. How can one conspire to influence an election using first amendment protected means??

  2. The blog is infested with too many people who worry they will not be found acceptable in society when they riot calling for the genocide of the Jews. We are talking about stupid people, much like those who want to lynch blacks for no reason.

    People can have a voice no matter how disgusting it is, and some bloggers voice such disgusting opinions but don’t blame private folk for staying away or not hiring such stupid folk.

    Bill Mahar had something to say, putting some of the awful ideas to rest. He did it humorously and made those supporting a particular type of violence look like fools.

  3. Jonathan Turley, from The New York Times, it is reported than the Repug-controlled House of Ill-repute, er., I mean Representatives, has *banned* mentioning that Donald Trump is a felon.
    Where, oh where, is your outrage?

    1. The ny times reported that???

      Maybe you need better sources.

      There are places you can learn of all house business conducted on a given day.

      I get so fvcking tired of reading libtards references to whats been “reported”

  4. “Federal Court Rules Professors Can Be Punished for Disruptive or Uncollegial Speech”

    – Professor Turley
    _____________________

    Roll out the “political officers” and enforce the party line and “dictatorship of the proletariat.”

    Freedom v. Dictatorship

    What say you?

    The American Founders said FREEDOM and the CONSTITUTION.

    Karl Marx hated that idea and came along 60 years later with the Communist Manifesto, the “dictatorship of the proletariat,” his motto: “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs,” and central planning, control of the means of production (i.e. unconstitutional regulation), redistribution of wealth, and social engineering.

    Wow! That was a mouthful, Karl. Hunger for power much?

  5. Public institutions must adhere to the Constitution, under which Americans enjoy absolute freedom of speech.

    The 5th Amendment prevails, and owners of private property alone may “claim and exercise” dominion. 
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    “[Private property is] that dominion which one man claims and exercises over the external things of the world, in exclusion of every other individual.”

    – James Madison

  6. Blasphemy laws come to NeoMarxist academia. As irony would have it, it appear to cut both ways. Freedom of speech under assault at the very institutions founded in the western enlightenment meant to foster free inquiry as the basis for advancing knowledge. A sure sign of the decline of our civilization. Hopefully we can debate our way out of this one, before it’s too late.
    Thank you, Mr. Marcuse, for your poisoned NeoMarxist gift of political correctness.

  7. Trump said he would build the wall and Mexico would pay 100% of the cost.

    Security experts then concluded any part of Trump’s partially-completed wall could be breached with simple tools, anyone could purchase at any hardware store.

    Not only was it not finished, it was a sub-standard wall that could be easily breached. American taxpayers paid 100% of the cost.

    1. Trying to deflect from Laken Riley, Rachel Morin, those girls killed in FL and TX by Biden’s illegals he let in with his open border.

    2. Anonymous said: “Not only was it not finished, it was a sub-standard wall that could be easily breached. American taxpayers paid 100% of the cost.”
      So, you are claiming that Trump’s wall was only about 20x as effective as Biden’s quarter of a billion dollar Gaza aid pier?

    3. You sound ignorant. The purpose of the wall was to control immigration, which Trump did. It wasn’t Trump’s fault that the left didn’t permit the completion of the wall along with what else was necessary. Presently we have a boob in office, and the left is in control. Social services, including schools and hospitals, have been inundated while citizens are killed and children raped. We are under threat of terrorism and will be bearing tremendous costs in the future.

      Despite what the left has done, you criticize what Trump did in reducing illegal immigration. What type of fool are you?

      1. “ You sound ignorant.” Nope, that’s just the echo of your mind – emptiness promotes echos.

        1. YNOT, thank you for showing up. Anonymous is ignorant, and you are here to demonstrate that his intellectual abilities can fall further.

  8. If/when the subject of immigration comes up at the debate. Trump should take his 2 minutes to recite the names of the victims.

  9. If those being attacked are anti Zionist, anti Israel, or called anti-semitic for ridiculous non reasons, you can rest assured that the attacks on them will be 100% legalized and often written into special laws of protected speech, while those receiving the attacks will be censored, silenced, made to sign I will never do it again agreements, debanked, removed from social media, their careers destroyed, their future protests publicly limited by powerful attackers, and their “rights” denounced as non existent.

    We obviously can trust almost no one when it comes to free speech anymore. What we have are a bunch of children who, especially from the left, but now also from the right because of jewish israel post ww2 issues, scream and fall down claiming fear and imminent death when they are exposed to speech that opposes any of their core beliefs, and thus demand the silencing of others.

    People have brought up the former now not the same ACLU that defended the rights of some nazis protesting in skokie, but a more recent set of cases where I personally stood all alone all over the internet in defense of their free speech was the lawyers of the Westboro Baptist Church. People were foaming at the mouth to shut them up by any all means possible. I kept pointing out, wait a minute, free speech, remember ?

    Thus what we now have is most of every side ready to smother 1st amendment rights completely depending on whose ox is being gored.
    Our federal government is one of the first and foremost players in taking away protected 1st amendment speech, as we should all know, they, since 2016, have been on a special rampaging mission doing just that, against all things MAGA, and all opposing the big covid fraud measures, and those not proclaiming the lie of the most fair election ever, the 2020 stolen election. They also go bonkers over anyone not complying with their global warming FRAUD measures.

    1. I believe that illegals will soon be treated as a protected class. Special laws will be passed to protect this special voting block.

  10. Putin means “Putz” in Russian.
    Lavrov means “loser”.
    Medvedev means “mediocre”.

  11. I’m kind of on-the-fence on this one. While I wholeheartedly agree with the good professor about the throttling of free speech/ opposing views, I also believe that the university could have well-better handled this controversy by employing “time, place, manner” 1A jurisprudence– and turn the professorial disagreement into a teaching moment for students.

    Why not have the school post a scheduled “open discussion and DEBATE” between Donadio and Gruber/Smith to be held in the school’s auditorium, -inviting all students to attend, and let both sides air their views/positions and RESPOND TO EACH OTHER, –without all the childish, surreptitious, and immature tactics and words employed by gruber/smith.
    Let the students decide for themselves–the old Socratic method best used to educate, IMHO.

    1. Lin,
      In a civilized society, what you propose would be able to occur.
      However, at some point America has lost the civilized part.
      Now, whenever Donadio were to speak, he would be shouted down and not allowed to be heard by those who would like to hear what he has to say. When we allowed this kind of behavior to be normalized, we are losing not only our 1stA rights, but our country as well.

      1. The screamers would be well organized for this proposed debate. Shouting down anyone with whom they disagree has been completely normalized on America’s college campuses Jonathan. It would be about as pointless as rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic Jonathan.

    2. Perhaps Doniado may not want to debates these two turds. Cast not your pearls among the swine.

  12. I have to disagree with Professor Turley. I think the Court got this one right. What the Bad Professors here were trying to do, was bring a mob of Idiotic Leftwing Democrat Scum Students down upon people with a different (i.e., sensible) opinions. It was simply disruptive, and unprofessional.

    The decision what NOT directed at what the Bad Professors believed, and indeed, the Bad Professors were quite free to express their Democrat-scum beliefs on FaceBook, or outside the college, or perhaps even in the college, in an appropriate place and time. What they were not free to do, and what they should not be allowed to do, is to try to incite a mob against other Professors and Turning Point USA, on the actual grounds of the campus.

  13. Dear Mr. Turley, It seems to me that civility and respect have gone out the window on these college campuses. Reading through the various comments shows just how much the Left has their heels dug in to not allow any debate and any topic. Respect for a fellow human being would go a long way to dissolving the tensions on campus and in our politics.

    1. A dreamy hope that the powers that be totally oppose every chance they get, fanning the flames, in secret, even after they are caught red handed, and often come into the open and continue the partisan hate filled attacks against traditional Americans.

  14. Damn, when I hear a professor ask if Jewish babies were cooked with or without baking powder I have to agree that he has a right to say it. He should only be jailed if he personally carries out the baking of Jewish babies with or without baking powder. However, there is no obligation to continue his employment anymore than a man who says that black men should be hanged. Your hate speech will be rewarded rather than deplored if you are on the left and teaching in higher education in America. Yet somehow they try to tell you that your freedom is at stake if you vote for a Republican running for President. If it wasn’t Trump they would be saying the same thing about any Republican running to lead the national. We should never forget that it was the leftist who tried to create a new division of government known as The Department of Disinformation with all the same enforcement powers of the FBI. The continuation of Democracy does indeed hang in the balance.

    1. I find it interesting that the apparent test for the banning of any individual from anything or everything has come down to the current mainstream cultures assessment of the ideas contained in their unwanted speech. We have been told no one can be banned for skin color or heritage traits they were born with, although the exception now is white males and Christians, and that former idea also doesn’t apply to any and all minority only groupings, who are capable of publicly having their racist our color only constructs everywhere in public.

      You brought up a verbal stance on jews and blacks as sufficient to be removed from employment. So we have speech policing totally justified by you, but strangely an attack against whites or Christians is never given as an example, showing the sheep like behavior you exhibit IMO. In other words, you repeat the left wings standard op and don’t even flinch doing it. Don’t expect to “win” being that foolish.
      At least you protected your own category, being a jew, right ?

    2. Tit. I agree with you. Who is the arbiter of who can speak and who can’t.

  15. Doesn’t it fall under the freedom to persuade hog swill of the manipulators? So it is…

    Classes in the recognition of hogwash are mandatory. Then there are lies. Then that half baked stuff of the leftists. Can anyone decipher the swill Kavanaugh just gave as an opinion?

    Thanks for your commentary, Mr. Turley.

  16. Just wanted to take a moment to dance on the ignorant head of Svelaz-George again.

    How did you like that SCOTUS ruling , Mr. “Rahimi will be upheld, and it will bolster Hunter’s appeal”?

    LMAO you lose again. And so will Hunter.

    (I am so immature sometimes)

    1. And for Dennis, using his logic…

      I guess this proves that the court is not a “right wing cabal”.

  17. “Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]…I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require…for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” quote by George Washington.

    In 21st Century America, that would point directly to George W. Bush’s torture attorneys at DOJ that simply renamed torture, including water boarding torture (with strong case law since World War Two. Since the CIA and DoD interrogators followed DOJ legal guidance and didn’t attend law school, the interrogators would be the least culpable.

    To date, none of the DOJ torture attorneys have been held accountable. Some were even promoted to federal judges standing in judgement of defendants more law abiding than they were.

    1. Terrorists are not POW’s.

      You target civilians, you get tortured. Easy Peasy.

  18. For Turley critics with amnesia. Don’t forget Turley (like all constitutional experts) was labeled a “Liberal” during the George W. Bush era.

    George W. Bush was fiscally-liberal and constitutionally-liberal. Bush even ignored Ronald Reagan’s torture treaty which also bans cruel treatment (also federal law).

    Reagan was actually following George Washington’s beliefs. Washington considered mistreating prisoners and detainees akin to treason. A highly disloyal act for any American. Bush was extremely liberal on these issues.

    Turley pointed out how radical Bush was on the constitutional rule of law and was attacked by Republicans as being “Liberal”. Over 20 years of declassification proved Turley was correct and that George W. Bush’s statement were false and misleading. Evidence suggests Bush officials knew they were lying when they said it.

    1. That is so well said, wish you’d put your name on it but you said a real truth here.

      Well said, whoever you are.

      1. Yeah, UpstateBias likely won’t even acknowledge it
        because there’s no fake screen name like his attached.
        So he won’t be giving it the ‘Well Said’, himself.

        1. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here but I wasn’t agreeing with everything he said.

          I was agreeing with what he said about Turley being blasted as liberal just 20 years ago and how everyone in here daily conveniently “forgets” that uncomfortable fact.

  19. More people are worried about what someone else is doing/saying
    than are learning how to better process things for themselves.

  20. Yes Sir! They go after the Intellectuals and Academics 1st., then they go after Dissident Influencers, and then the Radicals & Extremist, then the Mutts.
    Then comes The WAR!
    Straight out of the Third Reich Handbook.

      1. And now the beginning of the Burning of the Books

        Internet Archive forced to remove 500,000 books after publishers’ court win
        Internet Archive fans beg publishers to stop emptying the open library.
        As a result of book publishers successfully suing the Internet Archive (IA) last year, the free online library that strives to keep growing online access to books recently shrank by about 500,000 titles.
        By: Ashley Belanger – June 21st. 2024
        https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/06/internet-archive-forced-to-remove-500000-books-after-publishers-court-win/

        1. “Internet Archive forced to remove 500,000 books after publishers’ court win”

          Which is a good thing.

          When sites publish copyrighted movies and music without the publisher’s or creator’s permission, it’s called pirating. Ditto for books.

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