On Friday, the Supreme Court agreed to review a potentially blockbuster religion clause case in Oklahoma Charter School Board v. Drummond. However, there is a catch. While the lawyers representing St. Isidore of Seville Catholic Virtual School may need every vote they can get in this heavily contested area, they may have to prevail without Justice Amy Coney Barrett who recused herself for an unstated reason.
The case could bring clarity to an area long mired in 5-4 decisions. The question presented is “whether a state violates the First Amendment’s free exercise clause by excluding privately run religious schools from the state’s charter-school program solely because the schools are religious.”
The basis for the recusal is a mystery. Barrett was on the faculty at Notre Dame University and has close ties to the institution. Notre Dame Law Professor Nicole Garnett has been involved in the case and the Notre Dame Religious Liberty Clinic is on the brief for St. Isidore.
St. Isidore of Seville Catholic Virtual School is a Roman Catholic institution focused on digital learning.
The lower court ruled that such funding of a religious school is unconstitutional. Before the Oklahoma Supreme Court, Oklahoma Attorney General, Gentner Drummond, prevailed in arguing that the charter school board violated state law, the Oklahoma Constitution, and the U.S. Constitution. He insisted that the board should not have chartered the school because “St. Isidore’s educational philosophy is to establish and operate the school as a Catholic school.” He also opposed review by the Supreme Court, warning that the school intends to “serve the evangelizing mission of the church.”
The case could produce one of the most consequential decisions on the separation of Church and State in decades. Given her past interest and writing in the area, it would be ironic for Barrett to miss this ruling.
It is reminiscent of Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson’s recusal in the Harvard affirmative action case due to her close ties to that institution. However, for Jackson, it was immaterial since she was allowed to vote in the sister case involving the University of North Carolina.
The case will be argued in April.
Here is the lower court decision: St. Isidore Opinion
* Perhaps justice Barrett has a profound dislike for the AG or Ryan Walters. Perhaps protestants in general are irksome. If so she recused herself.
* What a fun case 😂. Ryan Walters is the Oklahoma superintendent of public instruction. His platform was a Bible in every classroom and instruction in Christianity. The pope heard your prayers and stepped forward as an expert.
What was in Walters mind? Every classroom teacher was qualified in religious instruction? What could go wrong?
The pope would surpass Bill Bennett as the virtual academy King. NH has catholic virtual education but not using public money. No brick and mortar, no upkeep, transportation and expansion possibilities.
It’s unaffordable in the long view as funded by taxes. Public coffers would drain quickly.
The other exposure here is for people to understand public schools are charities and primarily established for the education of the poor. If you’re living in Oklahoma and not paying property taxes of at least 13, 000 in taxes you’re poor and a charity case.
Who’s paying education? People like DJT, Elon Musk who moved out of California , Malibu and Palisades etc. It’s important to realize the reason it’s called free. It’s a charitable endeavor. 3rd worlds don’t have them.
There are other reasons the pope may be interested. It’s easier to hide people and he’s been doing this for a 1000 years, Mr. Walters, gaining an empire of money and properties worldwide.
Be careful what you wish for, Mr. Walters and the people of Okiehome.
Interesting…anyone file a suit, Mr. Gentner, for a Bible in every classroom? You might do that yourself.
* Check out Peter’s Pence. This is money sent to the sovereign nation of vatican city and the archdiocese corporation is opening virtual schools attempting to take money from public education. The catholic charter is a business and taxable? It’s doing business and being paid? It’s business. How naive are you…the biggest donor to the nation of catholicism us the usa. The ayotollah needs fair representation. Corrupted religions…
Revoke immunity
* This case actually irks me because the pope isn’t a rube. He’s knowingly taking advantage of hillbillies. Disgraceful and no, Mr. Francis, you aren’t God’s reincarnation on earth. Nothing stands between God and a person.
* 😂 it’s diabolical. Face to face.
The Vatican was aligned with Mussolini ww2.
* There’s a lot you could have done. Decrease the funding source to rip the heart out of those unions. 0.5 percent property taxes and no school bonds. Low scores? Go buy yourself a computer program in 3rd grade math for 100 bucks. The pope is letting you buy that for 13, 000 dollars but at least it’s free to you. Leave public ed and take 13, 000? No, you can leave with your property taxes which are 0% in some cases or maybe 1500 etc. Tax deductible private school costs? You do have that, right? Babysitting service tax deductible? Raise the snap food allotment? Virtual academy require no building, transportation nor food.
Warren buffet doesn’t fund ed.bhe lives in a 1960s dwelling in Nebraska and pays few taxes. He only makes fruitful investments.
It’s called a theocracy and yes, if you have nobtime for Sunday school buy Jesus on a download.
* it gets curiouser and curiouser as you look into this case. Okiehomie has purchased Bibles for every classroom and Ryan Walters has ordered every teacher to teach the Bible AND the okiehomie State school board approved it? AG GENTNER DRUMMOND should be aware of what the States been up to?
It’s late, I’m late for or a very imp……
Best wishes SCOTUS
* The arguments will be fun.
If you keep going you’ll end up with no free public ed for poor. You don’t understand it. After everyone cashes in it’ll collapse.
This is a discrimination case and has been done all wrong. No, every child in Oklahoma doesn’t have 13, 000 dollars to follow them. Half have 0.
* Let’s change it a little. St. Isadore is a virtual school. It’s charter status would make it a public school and not a private school. It’s entitled to public funds.
St. Isadore for argument is an existing brick and mortar private school but wants to become a public charter school. It finds a public school sponsor and transitions. Public money at the same cost as public schools is granted.
Has the public school funds in existence suddenly become stretched? Is there an enormous influx of pupils?
It isn’t necessarily draining away pupils from existing public schools but an enormous influx of newly funded students.
This is an impact unaddressed. I haven’t read any educational funding impact report EFII.
This holds true in the creation of any charter by an outside organization or corporation. There’s an existing target audience.
Yes, existing brick and mortar public schools can transition to charters wholly or in part.
The financial impact of the charter business to the taxpayer is unaddressed. Perhaps money is no object. We’ll make the cookies, pita, tortillas smaller, 1/2 cup rice and not a cup.
Where do I deduct my property taxes now? And why? I have no children but thank you for giving me the opportunity to donate.
* SCOTUS will uphold separation because there’s an agenda of tax free business to use public money for the furtherance of that business. 25% of the profit is sent to Rome. Every business would love such a subsidy. I’ll use your money for my business never paying taxes at the front end or at the end.
It’s theft IMHO. Public education has no agenda except education.
* looking down the road it’ll destroy the United in United States. They’ll eventually split into separate nations.
It’s a no.
* Public education in the US is a charity based on the idea that half the population could not afford a private education or any education at all. The people purchase education from the State or the State administers the tax “donations”. The taxed are diverse. Education is not religion. Religion is not purchased by the State nor entwined with education because many donors (taxed) freely exercise their religions and do not tithe at the public trough.
Example: half of Californians pay no tax for education. They are recipients of free education . It cost them no money. A low income family decides it wants a Roman catholic education for its 7 children. They charge the public trough 79, 000 dollars per year to FREELY practice their religious right. This removed 79, 000 dollars from the education of children in a school district. That impacts a cut of one classroom with teacher, or 6 aids, or 4 secretaries etc. The donors aren’t Roman catholic but are being forced to establish that religion.
Freely practice your religions. No one will pay for that practice except the practicer. It does bring tax exemption on church owned properties. Churches should be paying taxes on the property and not the building itself. The vatican is a country and enjoys diplomatic immunity when priests who molest aren’t arrested and given prison sentences like American citizens.
The Oklahoma charter laws, Oklahoma State must align with the US Constitution. It is the law of the land.
Yes, you purchase education including daycare and food and transportation at a cheap rate and get a basic education without bells and whistles. If all citizens paid education taxes then the tax would be lower for the half that funds it.
No, money cannot be removed by a corporation such as the Roman catholic church. Removing charitable contributions from a public charity is specious at best.
…. to freely exercise your religion is specious. ^^^
* the additional realization are the big property tax payers are the actual charitable donors for the majority of school children. If Oklahoma property owners aren’t paying at least 13,000 per year property taxes they’re receiving charity. Back to the family with 7 children? How huge is your footprint?
That’s exactly the reason 3rd worlds don’t have public education. It’s not free. Millions of people are charitable donors which brings up property taxes are no longer deducted on short form federal taxes.
Good one pope. What a joke.
* In closing the Roman Catholic corporation nor the archdiocese has standing.
* * This article not only points out the hiring out in Oklahoma public education and the archdiocese, it also points to Oklahoma’s superintendent of public education, Ryan Walters.
Walters ran on a platform of there will be a Bible in every school and lessons taught from the Bible. Ryan Walters is the son of a minister in the Church of Christ.
Oklahoma is on the luge ride to the third world as they inadvertently shopped out public money to private corporations and the dismantling of a free public education as charity.
The people of Oklahoma probably meant well but like Judas thought he was just getting money for the poor he bought a public education graveyard for the poor.
Good grief
* My money’s on Gentner Drummond.
Thank you, professor.
* NH already has catholic k-12 virtual. Paid by u. 😂.
Yep, we’re in Hell alright.
* ^^^ kidding. How did it feel?
Catholics go to hell just like everyone else.
* all that suffering, all that creation of punishment eternally, we’ll beat you until you reform, you have no escape…
I’d rather sell my property than give it to that.
The founders were intelligent.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
If all religious private schools, of any faith, had equal access, then Congress would not be making an establishment of federal religion. Granted, that would give madrassas and humanist organizations masquerading as Satanists the same access.
By denying religious charter schools the same access to funding as secular charters, then Congress might perhaps be viewed as interfering with the free exercise of religion.
@Karen S: you are being generously kind to say that Congress might perhaps be viewed as interfering with the free exercise of religion.
In cases like this, state instead of federal Congress, they definitely are interfering. The Republican behind this plans on being the next Senator Murkowski.
Old Airborne Dog
Justice Amy Coney Barrett is a devout Catholic, attended Catholic school, and her father is a deacon at a Catholic Church. It is possible she felt she could not be unbiased, or had a conflict of interest.
Antonin Scalia was pretty much as devout a Catholic as you are going to find. Scalia had no problem with openly stating he was a devout Catholic, AND THEN sit on trials where some aspect of Roe v. Wade was being heard. In at least one of those trials, he voted to let Roe stand due to the issue being so narrow that the constitutionality of Roe was not in question. When he got flack for that from Catholics and right to life groups, he did not apologize. Instead, he pointed out he was there to pass judgements of law, not to exercise his religious beliefs from the bench.
If Scalia (and the other Catholics on SCOTUS), could deal with issues where opponents could try throwing the “Catholic” card, Coney Barrett could do the same. Unless she is their inferior as a female Catholic of course.
If she felt that, there was nothing stopping her from being forthright and declaring why she was recusing herself, instead of smiling mysteriously from the corner leaving Americans guessing on why she recused on such an important case that truly needs a nine member court.
My belief after reading her decisions last summer and her votes, is that we’re looking at the next Justice Kennedy or Roberts in Coney Barrett as time goes on. From what we saw from her in this last term, Coney Barrett will never come close to being the justice that Scalia was and Thomas is. I believe she will prove to be a disappointment as time goes on.
Old Airborne Dog
Those are good points. It also makes no sense that she gave no reason for recusing herself. I wondered if perhaps she felt biased for being involved in or promoting Catholic schools, but we’ll never know if she won’t make her reason public.
* She’s perhaps in the belief that if you aren’t catholic you’ll burn in hell anyway so it doesn’t really matter.
* it really is just a way of acquiring money and land and sending infidels to hell of course. The Roman empire lives…
PERFECTLY STATED — SHE IS A HUGE DISAPPOINTMENT AND SEEMINGLY ANOTHER SANDRA DAY O’CONNOR.
“The First Amendment prevents the feds from instituting a federal religion.”
With the implication (stated explicitly all over the place) that 1A does not prohibit *a state* from instituting religion.
That is the intellectual bankruptcy of the “states’ ‘rights'” movement.
Governments (federal, state, local) do not have rights. They have powers, explicitly stated in a constitution. Rights pertain to a private individual. They are a fence around the individual declaring, in effect: Government, hands off.
Notice, also, the horrendous logical consequence of that states’ “rights” argument:
1A prohibits the federal government from censoring speech. But it does not prohibit a state government from censoring speech.
What to lose your rights to state and local tyrants, as you did during Covid — keep pushing that states’ “rights” premise.
What you’re missing is that the 14th amendment requires the states to respect people’s rights, which is generally understood to mean almost all the rights protected by the Bill of Rights.
But what most people ignore is that not ALL of the first amendment protects rights. Most of it does. The freedom of speech and of the press is a right, the first amendment protects it, and thus the 14th amendment extends it to the states. The free exercise of religion is also a right, the first amendment protects it, and thus the 14th amendment extends it to the states. Ditto for the right to assemble and the right to petition Both rights, protected by the 1st, and thus extended by the 14th to the states.
But the absence of an established church is NOT a right. The first amendment forbids one, but ignoring that prohibition would not violate anyone’s rights. Supposing Congress were to establish a Church of America, with the same status as the Church of England has in that country, whose rights would be violated? Who could say they were harmed by it? Nobody. Thus there are no grounds for incorporating that clause against the states via the 14th.
Unfortunately Clarence Thomas is probably the only supreme court justice that shares this view. Everyone else assumes the entire 1st amendment is incorporated, without explaining why. I expect this case to lose 8-1.
“But the absence . . .”
Yet again, your bizarrely upside down view of the purpose of our constitution. It is not a check on private action. It is a check on government action.
Government cannot take any action unless that action is expressly *permitted* by the Constitution. Please cite where the Constitution permits government to establish a church.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Milhouse is partially correct. The first part — the absence of a national church is not a Right except in that a national church would violate the second part — the Right to freely exercise our religion. One could say that the absence of a government imposed national church is a Right. We have the Right to not have a government established, government sanctioned church imposed on the Country.
Supposing Congress were to establish a Church of America, with the same status as the Church of England has in that country, whose rights would be violated? Who could say they were harmed by it?”
It wouldn’t be the same status the Church of England has in that country, it would be the status of the previously state established churches in the several states at the beginning of our Country. Those churches benefitted from taxes, and forced attendance, and religious oaths. We don’t look to another country for laws, we look to what is/was done here — our laws, our Rights.
So, who would be harmed? Everyone whose religion is different from the now federally established, but previously Constitutionally prohibited ‘national religion.’ Our Right to freely express our religions and the prohibition against a government established church…together form our Right to religious freedom.
So, It is this second part that is ‘incorporated’ by the 14th Amendment — or should be according to the ‘doctrine.’ This is what I had been pondering since yesterday. I noticed that some comments mentioned the CO constitution and CO laws. Since the Incorporation Doctrine incorporates our Right to freely express our religion (should, if it doesn’t) against the states, CO constitution and CO laws violate the Constitution’s First Amendment.
State constitutions and state laws can’t infringe on our Right to freely exercise our religion. For some, that includes schooling children with a faith based education. If parents are allowed to use tax dollars for charter schools, faith based charter schools can’t be excluded. State constitutions and state laws prohibiting this violate the Right to freely exercise.
Concerning mandated public education. Trying to get the phrasing right. Parents are required to enroll their children in public schools unless they prove they are using a different option. Parents have the Right to choose how their children will be educated. The state mandates the education, and pays for it through tax dollars. Parents have the Right to choose a different education and the Right to have those tax dollars follow their child to whatever school they choose. Even if it is a faith based school, per the Right to freely exercise our religion. A state can’t violate that Constitutionally protected Right.
Of course, this includes all faith based schools. I haven’t been able to find a reason to exclude certain ‘faiths’ — except my own beliefs about those ‘faiths.’
I apologize for the lengthy post. Since I’m so new, I’m not sure of the posting protocols. Should very long comments be split? I appreciate any and all helpful tips and suggestions.
I like it. And not just because my beliefs on the issues you posted about pretty much align with yours. I like them because they’re well written, explanatory, and clear.
Don’t worry about structuring your posts for those with fifteen second attention spans.
Old Airborne Dog
OAD, thank you so much. You are very kind to offer these words of support and encouragement.
Tax
Money is a pool of money from every person paying taxes be they any religion or none, having children or not? Do you mean to say pooled taxes is the source of money for the purchase of a public education for a specific child?
You’re so well spoken and intelligent I thought I’d ask? Thank you in advance.
No.
Taxes don’t ‘purchase’ in the sense of the buying, selling, and moving of goods and services.
The people paying the taxes have no say in how that money is spent, they do not ‘buy’ bur are forced to pay. Nor is profit the goal of providing those services.
Another ‘anonymous’ I have no idea who you are and your comment is suspect based on my previous interactions with the many ‘anonymouses.’
I might have to institute a new guideline for myself — no comments to anyone going by ‘anonymous.’
Next question-
Thank you in advance, can or couldn’t the people of a State purchase public education not from the State but from another entity offering whole State service? The State offers this and the ____insert any offers this? Is that possible? Must the people of a State purchase a State education?
Thank you again and am looking forward to your response. You’re so knowledgeable and I need help understanding this case.
No. Not going to post any more comments to anyone going by ‘anonymous.’
There is a whiff of insincerity in what you are saying to me.
Sam, states are not limited to enumerated powers, unless their own constitution says so. States have a general police power, which means they can take any action not expressly forbidden by the US constitution, federal law, or their own constitution.
According to Thomas, that includes establishing a state church. I agree with Thomas, but almost nobody else does.
I forgot that Barrett is recused, so I expect this to be 7-1, not 8-1.
* if all citizens are Roman catholic is there a national religion?
A hearty and YUGE thank you for this:
Governments (federal, state, local) do not have rights. They have powers, explicitly stated in a constitution. Rights pertain to a private individual. They are a fence around the individual declaring, in effect: Government, hands off.
It costs $13,000 for the public schools in Oklahoma to educate one student for one year. Any student who goes to a different school saves the public school that much money. Is there any reason the money should not follow the student?
The public school seems to be in an artificially advantageous position, not based on merit but on the law: the real estate tax money goes to it even if the parents pay, not only their taxes, but private school tuition. This closes off the opportunity for parents to exercise real choice, as lower income parents will not have the ability to choose an alternative school absent a program like the one being challenged in this case.
“Is there any reason the money should not follow the student?”
Yes! That money is what pays the county or city employees. Take it away, and a lot of teachers, principals, and bureaucrats lose the source of their salaries, pensions, and health benefits. That money goes to people who charge a lot less to do a better job.
That is the same reason why the people who supposedly work for you, will not let you build a tiny home, or put mobile homes on lots. They need those high property taxes to pay their salaries. And pay for their trips to Ghana.
* 13,000 dollars for ADA excluding brick and mortar. You guys don’t know that, right?
Bill Bennett former education secretary started the ball rolling with CAVA, ( calif virtual academy). He made a mint selling 100 dollar computer programs for 13, 000 dollars. The public didn’t care as long as they didn’t pay the 100 dollars. The unions came in and a CAVA tech makes 87 thou now.
You can walk into any catholic supply store and buy a Jesus computer prgram at minimal cost. Jesus in a can is currently for sale but you true believers with the faith can also attend Sunday church services.
It’s in part or whole as a publicly funded federally or state funded religious corporation.
Oklahoma can amend the virtual education with a dollar amount of –> not to exceed 1000 dollars since programs cost 100 and as to RELIGION shall not be established IN PART OR WHOLE for the boxes of rocks.
For those with a burning faith in Jesus it’s a sin to give your money to Allah, another God.
* The money is based on ADA so private schools decrease the funding in public schools. In calif half the population pays no education taxes meaning half the population literally provides a free education to the other half. The half not paying education taxes don’t take half of education money with them because they contributed no money. They cannot take half of what was not paid or nothing is nothing. That would be theft.
Currently half the population in calif is purchasing education from the State for everyone. Perhaps there’ll be a better bid the half can purchase for everyone. So far the States is the cheapest including daycare and food.
Perhaps Scholastic Education should have a Universal approach, completely free from Governments & Religious authority. A system funded by a universal tax (flat tax). to provide a base level of programs at primary level schools (i.e.: for STEM Curriculum)
The Starting-line is equal for all K-8, Beyond 8th grade Parochial Schools can be an elective but no Governmental Funding (9-12). 9th-12th Grades is the time of adolescent life where the opportunity to educate individuals in deeper-understandings of the meaning of the ideology/science.
Outside of these, Home Schooling remains an unfunded but limited tax-deductible option (There are State by State conditions).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parochial_school#United_States
STEM Curriculum:
https://stemeducationworks.com/curriculum-solutions/
Nice idea. But the core problem with public schools isn’t the systems we use to educate kids. It’s the parents. A boatload of awful parents. And it’s not Democratic parents or Republican parents, it cuts across politics. It doesn’t matter if it’s Compton in California or the Hollers of West Virginia. Too many people pop out kids with little intention of training them to grow up responsibly.
Agreed – it’s easy to procreate and make it someone else responsibility.
One thing that gets my goat is seeing empty school busses running routes, while a continuous line of SUVs line up bump to bumper moving the Kids.
If a School Bus us is less than 50% full them cut the Route. In my day during the “Energy Crisis”, Schools turned off every other Light, Busses were rationed to full Routes and Everyone was mandated to follow the rules to save cost and fuel. So much waste today in Dollars and Energy.
Mapped: The Income Needed to Raise a Family by U.S. State
This map illustrates the income needed to raise a family of four in each state.
Over 13 million families in the U.S. have two children living at home.
This graphic illustrates the income needed to raise a family of four in each state. GOBankingRates compiled the data as of December 2024.
By Bruno Venditti & Graphics/Design by Miranda Smith ~ January 23, 2025
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-the-income-needed-to-raise-a-family-by-u-s-state/#google_vignette
I think it is the system. Didn’t the system educate most of those parents?
We have a terrible system, with a terrible union, with terrible teachers and administrators — with terrible laws to enforce all this awfulness.
Those who are parents now are the product of all of that mess.
…and the cycle continues.
* Most comments are pro decimating public ed. Sounds great when it’s “faith” based and your religion. This paves the way for charters basing an education on any topic. Afghanistan history for instance and leaving out any study of American history. Schools today cannot teach American history anyway unless it’s negative.
Some have a really difficult time in understanding that a pool of money from all taxpayers purchases a service and products in education and pupils are clients.
We’re all 2nd class citizens from top to bottom and like all 2nd class nations some are educated and others not.
I really don’t know what you are trying to say.
Are you trying to say government services are commerce?
The Catholic church in the US possesses an estimated value in cash and assets of more than $30 billion. It pays zero taxes. F them. They can pay for their own charter schools.
😂 that’s right. Every freaking Sunday they pay a tax to the pope. The vatican is a literally a country, a nation. Tithing is a tax. Raise their taxes, not mine. It’s status is tax deductible.
Way back when preachers had jobs and held services on Sunday in addition.
Forget it…cash cow
Lots of problems here.
Vatican is a sovereign nation. What treaties are there?
Education is commerce.
Religions are tax exempt.
Charitable donations of property are tax deductible to a tax exempt entity? This involves American land.
A tax exempt entity seeks a commercial enterprise utilizing general citizen tax money to operate a business by a tax exempt entity?
The vatican can own a church, an establishment, a building but not the property beneath it? When or if the vatican engages in the commerce of selling a church it’s subject to taxes because religion has no buying nor selling? The vatican can charitably give it away.
* I’m a Puritan.
* St Isadore applied as a corporation.. the catholic church is a corporation.. . It’s offering a contract of a type of education strictly catholic.
Will every religion do this? No doubt. It’s lucrative. It decimates the public school funding.
Are these same computer programs available now for home schooling? Yes. Are public funds used? No. There remains a choice currently. It’s public money and public money is huge.
Ah well. .. I’m not sure the reason religious entities are tax exempt.
* The pope is merely another Cesar, another empire, another emperor the same as Tiberius or Nero but instead of armies he’s the sheeple battalion convincing he hold the keys to heaven and he’ll and he holds the keys to the afterlife so fear me.
It’s a corporation that wants your money and land. Let’s hope the United States turns him down. Pay your own way and someone needs take a closer look at these buying and selling of human lives called religions. The televangelist is a real piece of work.
No, Pope, American children won’t be little money launderers for you.
* Apparently God can be bought and sold?
Commerce. And he went into the church and turned over the tables..
The buying and selling of goods, especially on a large scale, as between cities or nations.
I would add the moving of goods andservices. Businesses and trade.
Inter — between states.
Intra — within states.
Would you mind explaining how education is commerce? Some education is paid for by the student, but for the most part — taxes fund public education. My brain is just not making the connection to how teaching and learning is the ‘buying, selling, transporting goods and/or services within or between states. Employees are paid of course, but indirectly by taxes. Not everyone pays taxes and levies which support education.
It’s probably just something small I’m not seeing or considering. Thank you.
Gee, I dunno. Try reading the case.
You are the one who made the comment…correct?
This:
Lots of problems here.
Vatican is a sovereign nation. What treaties are there?
Education is commerce.
Religions are tax exempt.
You made the claim, can’t you support it?
* I’ll be honest with you and it’s the last word from me. You are one of the most ignorant people here. You’ve got support but not from me. Leave me alone.
I bid you peace. You make my skin crawl.
How nice of you to share. Your attitude is puzzling. You make comments on an open forum, do you not expect people to reply to those comments or ask questions?
Leave you alone….I’d be happy to do that if I only knew what your name is. There are many who post as ‘anonymous’ — hard to tell the who is who.
Now, you know I’m gonna ask, but I already know you won’t answer because you never answered before — how am I ignorant and why do I make your skin crawl? Because I asked questions?
To me, your comment seems a bit unreasonable.
Sure they can pay for their schools. But once they do, how does a family (including a non-Catholic family) that wants to send their kid there pay the tuition? Do they get to redirect their r/e tax money for that purpose, or do they still pay the same tax money to the public school and then have to pay extra to the Catholic school? Usually the latter but this program basically lets them redirect their own tax money to the new school.
They pay the same. It’s an absurd case.
It establishes a religion or religions. It would be a theocracy of many gods. The founders knew that.
Interesting once again to invade a land, use the people’s money and claim the citizens.
As the JFK files are opened….
No, it doesn’t.
A parent using the taxes he pays for a public education on faith based education for his children doesn’t establish a religion or church. A citizen doesn’t have the power to do that. He can’t compel others to be members of a religion, attend services, contribute to the funding.
* you’re correct but such language…
It’s a corporation…BRAVO, its come to this. If you can take taxes you can pay taxes and the corporation really doesn’t care.
My gawd, moral depravity. All the same as swaggart, Tammy Faye, the pope…for sale but the catholic corporation has a history of selling grace, huh.
TA DA! show me some ghosts and holograms and I’ll pay you anything.
Fi
* anonymous, you’re correct. Jesus is bought and sold as a product now. They’ll screech and squirm and say , nooo not my Jesus as the corporation scoop in your money. 😂
OT
“The UnConstitutionality of Citizenship by Birth to Non-Americans”
The Fourteenth Amendment
“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;…”
– Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America
“In a nutshell, it means this: The constitution of the United States does not grant citizenship at birth to just anyone who happens to be born within American borders. It is the allegiance (complete jurisdiction) of the child’s birth parents at the time of birth that determines the child’s citizenship–not geographical location. If the United States does not have complete jurisdiction, for example, to compel a child’s parents to Jury Duty – then the U.S. does not have the total, complete jurisdiction demanded by the Fourteenth Amendment to make their child a citizen of the United States by birth. How could it possibly be any other way?
“The framers succeeded in their desire to remove all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. They also succeeded in making both their intent and construction clear for future generations of courts and government. Whether our government or courts will start to honor and uphold the supreme law of the land for which they are obligated to by oath, is another very disturbing matter.”
– P.A. Madison
I hope you didn’t injure yourself using your feeble logic to find a citation that the Constitution doesn’t grant citizenship based on birth.
14th Amendment: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”
“…and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,…”
Why do so many of you here go ballistic, proceeding immediately to ad hominem?
It’s as if some of the data above proved you irrefutably wrong, backing you into a corner with no escape.
Perhaps it’s the unassailable fact that the Constitution does not grant citizenship by birth; it grants citizenship by birth and complete jurisdiction.
* What’s your name anonymous? What line of work? Just curious .
It’s much more than that. I urge you to read it.
Thank you very much for posting this!! It is an excellent article!!
lgbmiel and Darren, There was a little back and forth comments between lgbmiel and me last night regarding birthright citizenship that appear to be missing. What happened to them?Thanks.
Good afternoon, CC,
I noticed a few of my comments had been removed. I’m wondering If I had included too many quotes and citations? Too much that wasn’t of my own creation? I can’t think of anything else.
@lgbmiel – as you’ll quickly discover, this comments section is steam powered technology. Amongst the other foibles, comments and sometimes an entire column just… disappear.
Two web links is the max in a post as I have found. Other than that… let ‘er fly.
Old Airborne Dog
I was wondering if they were deleted because they were off topic. The article is about the 1st Amendment, not the 14th, so….
Your info regarding the # of links is greatly appreciated.
Suggest perhaps , not urge.
Oh, now I understand, you replied to the wrong comment.
No, I meant ‘urge.’
I suggest you let people choose their own verbs.
* Most of you function by urge and not thought. You’re a real passive aggressive.
I urge you to not try and diagnose people online.
It would be good if you knew the difference between the verb and the noun.
I agree – we should not be funding parochial schools. I do not agree with the religious right (Make no mistake: Trump was elected as a populist. I honestly don’t personally think Vance could win the presidency as a religious conservative; I wouldn’t vote for him, that just wasn’t what November was about, IMO), and I do not want my tax dollars going there anymore than I want them going to NPR. Not a fan of Marxism, not a fan of Christian religion seeping into everything, either. Do church on your own time and leave the rest of us with no interest in it out of it, thank you.
* I don’t disagree because of the fundamental truth of free will and by George you have every right to go to hell if you so choose but I’m not flying the plane there.
That is how you want things to be — other people may want things to be a different way.
Why would your wants prevail over theirs?
The First Amendment prevents the feds from instituting a federal religion.
AND
It says the feds can’t stop people from practicing their religion wherever they want. In public, on government property, in government buildings. Private property is a different subject.
This is what people ignore. Everyone has this Right — to practice their religion wherever they want. This includes government employees on government property.
* ok stoopid– “in part or whole” … they allow idiots to vote.
The KKK is a religion you know.
It’s not any religion with which I’m familiar.
Yes, they allow idiots to vote. It’s how the Country got stuck with biden — and many of his fellow dems.
I just had an urge to say that. It was urgent. I now must attend to other urgent callings. My cat needs to go outside.
Pardon
James said I agree – we should not be funding parochial schools… not a fan of Christian religion seeping into everything, either.
I believe that the school taxes those parents paid should follow the kids that go to whatever school they want, and that includes secular as well as parochial schools.
Odd how so many that are opposed to parochial schools aren’t heard from when it’s a secular charter school instead.
I have to confess I’m not a fan of the intrusive Rock Fairy Religion of Atheism, the religious choice of communists and Marxists of the world, so obnoxiously demanding a country with freedom FROM religion.
Being agnostic, I find the Hare Krishna crowd far less obnoxious than the strident atheists demanding freedom FROM religion. The last thing that crowd will accept is doing their atheism on their own time and in their unionized government employee schools and leaving the rest of us who don’t share their religious faith alone.
Old Airborne Dog.
This case is trivial and should result in a 9-0 or in this case 8-0 outcome.
Government can not favor any religion. Including no religion at all.
If government funds schools – it must fund religious schools.
It can impose education standards – that are religion neutral.
If can not be hostile to religion.
The BEST solution is for government to get out of education.
The next best is to just give education funding to parents.
PRIVATIZATION
Does the Constitution mandate education or a governmental education industry?
If not, individuals enjoy the right and freedom to “pursue happiness” and to operate a private property free enterprise in the private education industry in the free markets of the private sector in the complete absence of governmental interference.
Government has no power to operate an enterprise in the private education industry or otherwise interfere in (i.e. skew) free markets.
Wholly unconstitutional Medicare, Obamacare et al. have skewed the healthcare insurance industry into insolvency, likewise homeowners insurance, with emphasis on California.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
AI Overview
The children of the American Founders attended a variety of schools, including church schools, private schools, and boarding schools. Some children were homeschooled or received private tutoring.
Church schools
Goshenhoppen, PA
In 1743, Father Theodore Schneider established the first Catholic school in the colonies
Community schools
Local religious authorities often ran these schools, which served both boys and girls
“Wholly unconstitutional Medicare, Obamacare et al. have skewed the healthcare insurance industry into insolvency…”
As of January 7, 2025, UnitedHealth Group, the largest health insurance company in the United States, has a market cap of $473 billion. It mints money, simpleton.
Does the Constitution mandate education or a governmental education industry?
Many state constitutions explicitly do just that. I don’t know whether Oklahoma’s constitution does so. But even those who don’t mandate it still allow it. Remember, state governments are NOT limited to enumerated powers, unless their state constitution says they are.
With whatever they could afford. Take the school marm a chicken.
Oh boo. You aren’t giving any more of my money to any more corporations nor their servants delivering my money straighaway. It’s a way to get fingers around that big cash cow. The pope can educate his flock on his dime gained from his flock.
Imagine for just a moment the swindlers smacking their lips.
* Simply, it violates Oklahoma constitution and charter schools provisions.
The State offers a basic education. It’s not bell’s and whistles. The purpose of the charter as stated by the applicant is to promote the church and its magisterium. The people of Oklahoma haven’t voted such.
The archdiocese can raise its taxes in the form of charitable contributions and tithes to fund its schools virtual or otherwise and that of course is nationwide creating the nation of the Vatican and its Supreme ruler as head within the USA.
The Vatican enjoys tax free status currently and there are many problems presented as Oklahoma is a sovereign State with federal tribal land being the only exception.
Smacks of treason doesn’t it?
Lower court is correct in its action. It’s perhaps time to understand Vatican city is sovereign. Perhaps they wish to officially claim tribal land, too? 😏
It’s just too much like Zeus and j-zeus
. It’s Greek in origin but catholics like to dream It’s Roman. Tiberius ordered J-Zeus murder. Now they claim they have churches in Jerusalem.
Dear Pope, J Zeus was a Choo. I like the catholics and have catholic friends but please fund your tribe , pope, and no you can’t use US tax money lest ye be taxed. I like your champagne and Benedictine and boy, the Italian style is fabulous.
John, the difference is that a charter school IS A GOVERNMENT SCHOOL, and is thus subject to the establishment clause. That is very different from government funding education at religious schools on the same basis as it does for all other private schools. That does not violate the establishment clause, but allowing a religious charter school does.
The only justice I see supporting the plaintiff would be Thomas, since he has long stated his belief that the establishment clause is not incorporated into the 14th amendment. I think he’s right, and that his logic is impeccable, but as far as I know NO ONE else agrees.
Quit taxing for education at all! Educate or not on your own dime or just give the parents cash. I’ll take your cash and give it to my Klang friend. Jeez