Walter L. Wagner and Luis Sancho have literally filed to save the world in a federal court in Hawaii. The men claim that a giant particle accelerator called the Large Hadron Collider (located outside of Geneva) will produce a little black hole or even a “stranglet” that will destroy not just the Earth but possibly the universe. While some details have to be worked out, the benefit of such a claim is that it guarantees standing and offers a pretty wide jurisdictional footprint. There is still some question of what the contingency fee would be in such a case.
The Large Hadron Collider has been 14 years and $8 billion in the making to allow scientists to recreate conditions last seen a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang. According to some, it could also destroy the Earth by producing a tiny black hole or alternatively a “strangelet” that would convert our planet to a shrunken dense dead lump of “strange matter.”
There have been some past debates over this danger, but they have been rejected. Moreover, Wagner has previously demanded such relief. In 1999 and 2000, he tried unsuccessfully to stop the Brookhaven National Laboratory from operating the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider.
For the full story, click here.
I am sure Keith Olbermann will run a special on this on his “BUSHED” segment.
Moreimportantly, lets talk some more about how the Government brought the WTC towers down. That really brings out the lunatics.
Why, just a couple of nights ago Keith Olbermann was almost ecstatic over reporting over MSNBC Al Jazeera news reports on how Maliki’s troops were running from their mechanized armaments and abandoning them to the militias.
Keith Olbermann was almost having an orgasm on the air as he spewed Al Jazeera propaganda. Of course, MSNBC has picked sides in the fight, anyway, and that side is not with America.
What Keith forgot to tell his audience is that the Sadr militia being targeted has become the “mafia” of Iraq, that Sadr is in Iran or Syria calling the shots, that most Iraqi’s are sickened of the Sadr militia activities, and that Maliki was training and planning this step up to take over Basra as part of the re-unification in Iraq. Maliki is right; these Sadrists are the new Al Queda in Iraq, but of course some here and especially Keith Olbermann are cheering for the new Al Queda for political gain. SICK>
Niblet,
What you yourself in turn forgot to tell us is that the sadr militia are also being fought by the Iranian backed militias and so we find ourselves fighting on the side of the Iranians against the organic Iraqi Shi’ites! All the while pre-positioning military assets and talking tough about striking Iran. This situation is a mess.
Back to the LHC. The government (of whom I am a VERY humble employee) is tapped-out. We are scrounging for money at all levels. Big Science isn’t at the end of a perpetually-on money spigot anymore. We had two giant projects to rival EU’s LHC, one in Illinois and one in Texas, both were defunded. So America which has led the world in basic science research since WWII is now going to start having to send its scientists abroad to conduct their studies at offshore facilities. Its pretty sad.
The issue about the black hole creation came up a few years ago and if I recall correctly (and thats a dodgy bet nowadays) there was a vanishingly small probability of that happening.
DW, it’s only my view, but I think most of the money has gone because Bush is using it all to fund this insane war. That has also gobbled up the funds for just about everything else, including scientific research, education, health care for those who can’t afford it otherwise, and countless humanitarian projects that would have served us far better than this war is currently doing.
The way I see it, and I know niblet and other neo-cons will disagree, Bush simply doesn’t CARE about any of the humanitarian endeavors that could have made a real difference. He’s proved that to the American people repeatedly, ever since he got us into this foul, UGLY mess of a war to begin with.
I’m not a scientist, so I can’t say whether this theory is valid or not, but I don’t see any money being spent to determine whether it is indeed true or false. Which I think is a shame.
3/30/08:
BAGHDAD (Reuters) – Iraq’s government welcomed a call on Sunday by Shi’ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr for his followers to stop fighting security forces.
“This is a positive statement,” Ali al-Dabbagh, spokesman for Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, told Iraqiya state television. “As the government of Iraq we welcome this statement. We believe this will support the government of Iraq’s efforts to impose security.”
HMMMMM
What will MSNBC & Olbermann chant now to their 500,000 2 percenters? Wil they say it is was WRONG for Maliki and the Iraq government to step up as we step down? LOL.
Susan:
Bush has in all liklihood enabled 40,000,000 human beings the taste of freedom. If his decision pans out it could be the beginnings of a new order in a troubled region. Susan reminds me of the liberals (like Obama, who gave less than 1% of his income to charity for 2000 to 2005, that love to spend others money. Obama, like liberals, only increased his donations when it became personally (politically) important for him to do so.
Susan thinks scientific research, education, health care, and “countless humanitarian projects” are all the realm of the Government. Most of America does not think so.
PS: McCain and our being in Iraq for 100 years. We worked to get to Japan at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives for 5 years and spent another 2 or 3 years working to keep it stable and pointed towards a Democracy. Most then said it could not be done, that it was better to destroy Japan and then leave them to rebuild it themselves and those with that opinion were wrong weren’t they? We have now been either working to beat Japan or having American forces there for security for the region for 68 years now. Who has a problem with that?
3/30/08
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) — Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr told his followers to stop fighting and to cooperate with Iraqi security forces Sunday, as U.S. and Iraqi forces targeted his Mehdi Army in Basra and Baghdad.
“We announce our disavowal from anyone who carries weapons and targets government institutions, charities and political party offices,” said the statement that was distributed across the country and posted on Web sites linked to al-Sadr’s movement.
The government welcomes al-Sadr’s statement and views it as “positive and responsive,” spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said. Watch men fire guns in the air as a vehicle burns »
“A large number of people will listen to Muqtada al-Sadr’s call. Life will return to all of Iraq as before,” the spokesman said. “We as the government of Iraq believe this effort will be in the common interest and help the security efforts that the government is working to achieve.”
HHMMMMMMMMMM.. Will Keith Olbermann report this or the Al Jazeera version on Countdown tomorrow night?
Via Powerline: Sadr Says “Uncle”
Muqtada al-Sadr apparently has had enough; he’s offered a “truce” if the Iraqi government will stop attacking his men. I’m not close enough to the situation to know whether it would be better to accept the truce or continue disabling Sadr’s militia, but the proposal seems like a clear indication that things haven’t gone as Sadr intended.
This episode might prove to be, as President Bush suggested, a defining moment in Iraq’s post-war history. The main knock on Maliki’s government has been that it is a Shia instrument that has sometimes been infiltrated by radical Shia elements. Sunnis have often been suspicious of the government on this ground. The fact that Iraqi soldiers took the lead in rooting out Sadr’s militia may demonstrate to Iraqis that Maliki’s government represents all Iraqis, not just the Shia.
Nibbles, you kind of buried the lede there–if the Iraqi government stops attacking Sadr’s men, and Sadr’s men hold Basra (which they currently do), then the truce comes at the price of ceding control of Iraq’s major port city to the militia.
And it’s positively naive to think this isn’t going well for Sadr–his forces just proved that the Iraqi government is incapable of defeating them outright, and that any attempt to do so in Basra would require a US-led offensive on scale with Fallujah (which would most likely result in a dissolution of the Maliki government and its replacement with a more radical coalition). Just getting to this stalemate required a large US involvement to back up Maliki’s threats. He’s shown himself to be ineffective at combating the militias, and the Mehdi army showed itself capable of taking on the Badr Corps and the Iraqi military, which is probably the worst development of all, since governmental legitimacy is almost universally defined as holding a functional monopoly on the use of force.
This isn’t Sadr saying “I give,” it’s him giving Maliki a chance to say “uncle” before this explodes outside Basra and Baghdad. Put a happy spin on it if you must, but this is the sort of development that should be underlining the need for a political solution. Maliki now knows that he’s not the most powerful man in Iraq, and at this point I’d wager that only Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani could possibly overrule Sadr (and even that time might be passing, as Sistani’s non-involvement in many of the recent uprisings and political fights may have reduced his importance in the minds of the militants).
JR, sounds like you have the MSNBC & Keith Olbermann talking points down pat; regardless of the lack of accuracy. This guy disagrees with you. Sadr’s men are being decimated:
Sadr orders followers to end fighting
By Bill RoggioMarch 30, 2008 11:27 AM
Six days after the Iraqi government launched Operation Knights’ Charge in Basrah against the Mahdi Army and other Iranian-backed Shia terror groups, Muqtada al Sadr, the Leader of the Mahdi Army, has called for his fighters to lay down their weapons and cooperate with Iraqi security forces. Sadr’s call for an end to the fighting comes as his Mahdi Army has taken serious losses since the operation began.
“Sadr has sent a message to his loyalists urging them to end all armed activities,” the Al Iraqiya television channel reported. Sadr “disowned anyone attacking the state institutions or parties’ offices and headquarters.”
“Based on responsibility towards Iraq and to stem Iraqi bloodshed and to preserve the country’s unity and integrity as a prelude to its independence, I call on the people to be up to their responsibility and awareness in order to maintain Iraq’s stability,” according to a statement issued by Sadr and sent to Voices of Iraq. Sadr has called for the government to free members of the Mahdi Army and the Sadrist Movement captured during recent operations.
The Iraqi government has welcomed Sadr’s call for his followers to cease fighting. “The order to pull off gunmen off Basra along with all Iraqi provinces and to disavow those who has taken up arms against government offices and security forces is responsive and patriotic”, Ali Al-Dabagh, the spokesman for the Iraqi government, told Voices of Iraq. The Iraqi government has not called for a halt in military operations.
Sadr’s call for an end to fighting by his followers comes as his Mahdi Army has taken high casualties over the past six days. Since the fighting began on Tuesday 358 Mahdi Army fighters were killed, 531 were wounded, 343 were captured, and 30 surrendered. The US and Iraqi security forces have killed 125 Mahdi Army fighters in Baghdad alone, while Iraqi security forces have killed 140 Mahdi fighters in Basra.
From March 25-29 the Mahdi Army had an average of 71 of its fighters killed per day. Sixty-nine fighters have been captured per day, and another 160 have been reported wounded per day during the fighting. The US and Iraqi military never came close to inflicting casualties during the height of major combat operations against al Qaeda in Iraq during the summer and fall of 2007.
US and Iraqi forces are maintaining the high pace of operations against the Mahdi Army and the Special Groups. While the daily reporting from Iraq is far from over, initial reports indicate at least 18 Mahdi Army fighters have been killed and another 30 captured.
US soldiers killed 14 Mahdi fighters in Baghdad during a series of separate engagements. Iraqi security forces killed four Mahdi Army fighters and captured another 30 in Babil province, where a major offensive led by the police has been underway.
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/03/sadr_orders_follower.php
From above: “Sadr’s call for an end to fighting by his followers comes as his Mahdi Army has taken high casualties over the past six days. Since the fighting began on Tuesday 358 Mahdi Army fighters were killed, 531 were wounded, 343 were captured, and 30 surrendered. The US and Iraqi security forces have killed 125 Mahdi Army fighters in Baghdad alone, while Iraqi security forces have killed 140 Mahdi fighters in Basra.
From March 25-29 the Mahdi Army had an average of 71 of its fighters killed per day. Sixty-nine fighters have been captured per day, and another 160 have been reported wounded per day during the fighting. The US and Iraqi military never came close to inflicting casualties during the height of major combat operations against al Qaeda in Iraq during the summer and fall of 2007.
US and Iraqi forces are maintaining the high pace of operations against the Mahdi Army and the Special Groups. While the daily reporting from Iraq is far from over, initial reports indicate at least 18 Mahdi Army fighters have been killed and another 30 captured.
US soldiers killed 14 Mahdi fighters in Baghdad during a series of separate engagements. Iraqi security forces killed four Mahdi Army fighters and captured another 30 in Babil province, where a major offensive led by the police has been underway.”
By the way, when was it that our fearless leader told us “Mission Accomplished”?
Nibbles, if Sadr was hurting, you think he’d be setting terms for Maliki’s withdrawal? The Right in America seems to have a widespread problem of people not understanding that every fight need not be an all-or-nothing, to the death conflagration. Sadr just proved (as your article notes but misses the importance of) that Maliki is dependent on US forces to maintain any semblance of control. THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT SADR’S SAID ALL ALONG. Sadr has consistently said he’d only instruct his militia to hand over its arms to a government force capable of expelling the US occupation. So now he’s going to have functional control of Iraq’s main oil port, and as a bonus show that Maliki is unable to govern without US intervention, thus delegitimizing the Iraqi government. (Less than two months ago Bill Roggio was noting the need for the Iraqi government to show it had improved its capacity to govern–you think this helped or hurt them in that regard?)
Further, we’re now in a position where US troops are being used in a power play by Dawa and IRCI against al-Sadr. Considering that Sadr wants to be viewed by Shiites in Iraq as the central leader against the occupation, this is a gift to him.
Finally, nobody, Sadr included, thought that the Mehdi militia could withstand a direct attack by US forces. But remember that this was supposed to be Maliki’s coming out party, where his forces WITHOUT our help (and without even notifying us of his plans) would quell the uprising. Maliki failed miserably in that regard. Sadr can afford a few hundred losses in exchange for embarrassing Maliki this badly and inextricably linking Dawa and IRCI to the occupation.
Wow. Just wow. You people here are not the Americans I know or knew, grew up with, respected, and honored.
You really do want to see America “taken down a notch” for no other reason than you think we bring an imbalance of power to the world.
You bitch because Iraquis are not stepping up, when they do you bitch they are doing it wrong, when they succeed you bitch they have not. Unbelievable.
Sometime back I saw a video that was a play on Normandy in the respect of it happening today, complete with instant analysis, criticism of the death toll and the tactics, the media going livid over a small Luftwaffe force killing Americans on the beach (they told us the Lufwaffe had been DESTROYED!) interviews with “Frenchmen” telling of civilian casualities, and was culminating with conjectures by the media that “Eisenhower will be fired for this massive mistake”.
THINK KEITH OLBERMANN WILL REPORT WHAT THE FRENCH NEWS IS SAYING TODAY:
Agence France-Presse
Published: Sunday, March 30, 2008
WASHINGTON – CIA director Michael Hayden said Sunday he had no prior knowledge of the Iraqi government’s crackdown on Shiite militiamen in Basra and implied other top U.S. officials were also in the dark.
Asked if he was informed ahead of the operation, he told NBC television: “In terms of being pre-briefed or having, you know, the normal planning process in which you build up to this days or weeks ahead of time? No, no, I was not.”
Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki launched an assault on Shiite militiamen in neighborhoods of Basra controlled by the Mahdi Army, Iraq’s most powerful Shiite militia, on Tuesday, sparking six days of fighting across the country.
“I think the real telling moment, the real crossover point in all this, is the political decision to take action,” Hayden said.
“A lot of people in this country have criticized the Iraqis for not stepping up, for not taking advantage of the breathing space that’s been created by, frankly, coalition military activities.
“Here’s the case of an Iraqi leader stepping up.”
Mahdi Army leader Moqtada al-Sadr ordered his fighters off Iraq’s streets on Sunday, in a move the government said would help end the fierce clashes that have killed hundreds across the country.
“This is going to be a gradual slope as Iraqis, again, build this competence in terms of their combat power and apply it in a more even-handed way,” he said. Asked if it could take years, the general replied: “I think so.”
Questioned about last year’s “surge” of U.S. troops into Iraq to counter the escalating violence, the CIA chief said it had “changed the equation… it allowed some space for the Iraqis to step up, and they’ve begun to do that.”
Hayden said the military activity in Basra was “inevitable” given the lack of control the central government in Baghdad had over the city, Iraq’s second largest, and was a key part of Iraq becoming a democratic state.
© Agence France-Presse 2008
I really don’t think anything has changed, Niblet. In WWII and all the subsequent wars there have been people opposed to war. It is a recurrent theme and never changes.
You are wrong in thinking people here aren’t the same as those you grew up with. I am a little older than you, not much but a little, and it seems that the concerns I hear now are the same as they were in the sixties. War is a pretty terrible thing and all Americans want it to come to an end as soon as possible.
Iraq is a gigantic game of whack-a-mole. So today we whack the Mahdi Army, who will pop up tomorrow? There really will be no end to it even with the power of positive thinking. But I would be very very very very happy to be wrong here!
Deeply:
Here are some sentiments on war by a slightly more keen observer of our democracy:
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it. …. No protracted war can fail to endanger the freedom of a democratic country.
~Alexis de Tocqueville
“Truer words…..”
Interesting proposition. As a physics major in university, I wouldn’t completely discount the possibility. Creating a singularity could also possibly kill all life on the planet via the emission of high energy x rays as matter gets destroyed at the event horizon. There is a lot we don’t know, I wouldn’t immediately dismiss this guy as a nut.
A Harvard Crimson article called the lawsuit “not frivolous”.
Some scientists such as Professor Dr. Otto Rossler theorize that there may be a non-trivial risk that the world could be destroyed by micro black holes that might be created by the Large Hadron collider, but most scientists do not appear to be very concerned.
In order for Earth to be in danger, the following might need to be true:
1. Micro black holes would need to be created
– Unknown, predicted by some physicists
2. Hawking Radiation would need to fail
– Unknown, challenged by some studies and polls
3. Micro black holes would need to grow quickly
– Unknown, predicted by some theories
There is an interesting article about possible censorship at Wikipedia by CERN employees and supporters blocking references from science professors who challenge safety assumptions: http://www.lhcfacts.org/?cat=124
LHCFacts.org
LHCDefense.org
Thanks for the update jtankers. There was a good discussion of this issue on Science Friday (NPR) as well.
Jill
The debate about the hadron collider misses the point. No one should have a veto on anothers life. No one should be able to threaten innocent people with mass destruction or scare them with terror. This is what this hadron collider does.
Big business is pushing this and pointing a gun. playing Russian roulette with all of us. They have no right to threaten 6 billion people with oblivion and death. People who are not interested in their science and are/were happy enough without it.
The scientists have no right to threaten this prescious blue planet and its myriad amazing lifeforms with horrible death and extinction. It is our only planet for all time. No potential discovery is worth risking it.
I can only think these scientists can’t see the wood for the trees. The meaning of life is survival. Its purpose is reproduction. Just have look at every living thing. Have a walk, look at the birds, trees, flowers. Thats were you will see the meaning of life.