California Supreme Court Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

The California Supreme Court has overturned a law banning same-sex marriages. It is a seismic decision that is likely to add the issue to the presidential campaigns and trigger additional state constitutional amendments — and perhaps a federal constitutional amendment. The opinion is below.

The law in question was a1977 statute defining marriage as between a man and a woman. In 2000, Californians reaffirmed the law, though this was a symbolic resolution.

The California courts stopped San Francisco mayor Gavin Newsom from continuing to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples in 2004. However, that was due to the lack of his authority. The court reserved the question addressed today: the constitutionality of the underlying law.

There is already a move to amend the California constitution, which is likely to be accelerated by this decision. However, as a decision based on state law, the U.S. Supreme Court should defer to the highest state court on the question.

The decision was written by Chief Justice George with concurrences from Justices Kennard, Werdegar, and Moreno.

The Court concludes:

In the present case, it is readily apparent that extending the designation of marriage to same-sex couples clearly is more consistent with the probable legislative intent than withholding that designation from both opposite-sex couples and same-sex couples in favor of some other, uniform designation. In view of the lengthy history of the use of the term “marriage” to describe the family relationship here at issue, and the importance that both the supporters of the 1977 amendment to the marriage statutes and the electors who voted in favor of Proposition 22 unquestionably attached to the designation of marriage, there can be no doubt that extending the designation of marriage to same-sex couples, rather than denying it to all couples, is the equal protection remedy that is most consistent with our state’s general legislative policy and preference.

Accordingly, in light of the conclusions we reach concerning the constitutional questions brought to us for resolution, we determine that the language of section 300 limiting the designation of marriage to a union “between a man and a woman” is unconstitutional and must be stricken from the statute, and
that the remaining statutory language must be understood as making the designation of marriage available both to opposite-sex and same-sex couples. In addition, because the limitation of marriage to opposite-sex couples imposed by section 308.5 can have no constitutionally permissible effect in light of the constitutional conclusions set forth in this opinion, that provision cannot stand.

Plaintiffs are entitled to the issuance of a writ of mandate directing the appropriate state officials to take all actions necessary to effectuate our ruling in this case so as to ensure that county clerks and other local officials throughout the state, in performing their duty to enforce the marriage statutes in their In the present case, it is readily apparent that extending the designation of marriage to same-sex couples clearly is more consistent with the probable legislative intent than withholding that designation from both opposite-sex couples and same-sex couples in favor of some other, uniform designation. In view of the lengthy history of the use of the term “marriage” to describe the family
relationship here at issue, and the importance that both the supporters of the 1977 amendment to the marriage statutes and the electors who voted in favor of Proposition 22 unquestionably attached to the designation of marriage, there can be no doubt that extending the designation of marriage to same-sex couples, rather than denying it to all couples, is the equal protection remedy that is most consistent with our state’s general legislative policy and preference.
Accordingly, in light of the conclusions we reach concerning the constitutional questions brought to us for resolution, we determine that the language of section 300 limiting the designation of marriage to a union “between a man and a woman” is unconstitutional and must be stricken from the statute, and that the remaining statutory language must be understood as making the designation of marriage available both to opposite-sex and same-sex couples. In addition, because the limitation of marriage to opposite-sex couples imposed by section 308.5 can have no constitutionally permissible effect in light of the constitutional conclusions set forth in this opinion, that provision cannot stand.
Plaintiffs are entitled to the issuance of a writ of mandate directing the appropriate state officials to take all actions necessary to effectuate our ruling in this case so as to ensure that county clerks and other local officials throughout the state, in performing their duty to enforce the marriage statutes in their jurisdictions, apply those provisions in a manner consistent with the decision of this court. Further, as the prevailing parties, plaintiffs are entitled to their costs.

Personally, I have long preferred to get rid of the term “marriage” in favor of a single civil union standard, click here.

For a copy of the opinion, click here

68 thoughts on “California Supreme Court Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

  1. Anyone ever read NY Chief Judge Kaye’s dissenting opinion on this matter?

    The case was ‘Hernandez v Robles’ (7 NY3d 338, July 6, 2006)

    Chief Judge Kaye (dissenting)

    http://www.courts.state.ny.us/reporter/3dseries/2006/2006_05239.htm

    Just as Rehnquist’s dissent in Texas v. Johnson made me laugh, J Kaye’s dissent was truly humbling; since it reminded me that inductive argumentation can be just as powerful as the deductive variety.

    It’s a Kantian analysis of the Ninth Amendment thing–long story.

    Another time.

    Regards,

    Bob

  2. “…and trigger additional state constitutional amendments — and perhaps a federal constitutional amendment.

    Isn’t it possible this decision could aid in forestalling such ridiculous right wing amnedments? I don’t agree that this would help those opposed to equal treatment under the law. I don’t think there are quite enough neanderthals in the two houses to get such an un-Constitutional bill through. Also, wouldn’t the signature of the sitting President be required? I don’t see President Obama signing such. I’m not so sure even John McBush would sign it.

  3. It would seem that the other possibility is elevating this conversation to a place where it isn’t controlled any longer by Pastors of franchised churches or PACs posing as Religious groups should be most helpful. This is a difficult issue because even after the cartoon characters (on both sides of the argument) take their seat and shut up, there are very good Americans that have to struggle with their own evolution (pardon the expression) and that of society. It is in no way a slam dunk.

    I also think you sell Obama short. He hasn’t disappointed me to speak of- possibly the only time was not impressed- was his letting Samantha Powers get pushed out – and that’s it. Other than that, I think he’s handled adversity with the great skill. In fact – truly – McCain and Hillary – both look like Junior High School toughs next to him. (Okay sorry for campaign ad)

    I think though, while it may be challenging – reasoned discourse and a renewed venue will help detoxify the public on this very challenging issue that Americans have to discuss.

  4. I have read most of the opinion and find it thoughtful and well-reasoned. It is a defensive opinion in my view since it seeks to limit its scope to the precise issue before the Court which is of course the constitutional validity of the legislation, and it is written comprehensively to attempt to insulate it from attack by the right-wing theocrats who will undoubtedly denounce it as just another “crazy” California opinion–oblivious to California’s role as a leading jurisdiction in so many aspects of civil law.I do however agree with one particular line that seems to summarize the jurisprudence involved, and that deals a decisive blow to those who would present historical context as armor for blatant unconstitutionality.

    Chief Justice C.J. George writes:

    “60 years ago in Perez v.Sharp (1948) 32 Cal.2d 7114 — which found that California’s statutory provisions prohibiting interracial marriages were inconsistent with the fundamental constitutional right to marry, notwithstanding the circumstance that statutory prohibitions on interracial marriage had existed since the founding of the state — makes clear that history alone is not invariably an appropriate guide for determining the meaning and scope of this fundamental constitutional guarantee.”

    I suppose that somewhere Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia) is smiling, as she was vindicated once again (this time on the other side of the continent) and her prescient sentiments so eloquently expressed last year bear repeating:

    “I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.”

  5. binx101:

    I could swear I heard the sonorous voice of Paul Potts singing the last lines from Nessun Dorma as I read the opinion. Vincero’, indeed.

  6. I don’t see this issue being resolved Judicially, Legislatively or Constitutionally. It displays the same pathology as the failure of Roe v. Wade to resolve the abortion issue. As long as we have a sizable religious population that insists that their interpretation of the “Will of God” must be the law of the land, then all the political/religious demagogues will continue to exploit prejudice and fear.

    The end of these harmful battles can only come about if we as a society begin to understand and support the separation of church and state. Most people would agree that adults should not be allowed to interact sexually with children. However, how we define the ages of consent and the various permutations and possibilities (is it statutory rape if a 16 year old girl and 14 year old boy voluntarily have sex?) requires clear thinking and sober judgment. This type of rational decision making cannot take place in an atmosphere tinged with religious belief and moral judgments.

    That people who are homosexual should have the right to have the benefits (and problems)of marriage seems obvious in my opinion. Just as obvious to me is that a woman should have the sole right to determine if she wants to terminate a pregnancy. The murkiness that impedes defining peoples rights begins to enter where instances like the action in Texas regarding the abuse taking place in Mr. Jeff’s cult occur.

    On one hand I believe people should have the freedom to choose any non-exploitive relationship they may conceive, on the other I find the abuse and exploitation in Texas to be an abomination. The only way that I see to get to the point of providing liberty to the people is by getting religion and pious morality out of the discussion.

  7. Unlike Massachusetts, California is allowing out of state same-gender couples to marry. How will these marriages be viewed in a state with a constitutional definition of marriage as one man and one woman? Will the newly married couples have a legal avenue to demand the state recognize their marriage?

  8. Proposition 22, which defined marriage to be between a man and a woman and adopted by California voters on March 7, 2000 with 61.4% in favor, was hijacked along with the California Legislative Branch by the Tyrannical Justices of the California Supreme Court which legislated from the bench in direct violation of the California Constitution and managed to null the will of the people and declare Proposition 22 unconstitutional. It only took four tyrannical traitors to wrest the will of the citizen of California, these four judges are either being bribed, or blackmailed by the degenerates or they are homosexuals themselves.

    Writing for the majority, Chief Justice Ronald M. George said: “In light of the conclusions we reach concerning the constitutional questions brought to us for resolution, we determine that the language of section 300 limiting the designation of marriage to a union “between a man and a woman” is unconstitutional and must be stricken from the statute, and that the remaining statutory language must be understood as making the designation of marriage available both to opposite-sex and same-sex couples.”

    The black robed tyrants had the audacity and the recklessness to stick their tongues to the majority of California voters and without an ounce of shame declared that a marriage between a man and a woman is unconstitutional, but marriage between a man and a woman becomes constitutional when coupled with same-sex couples, what a bunch of crap, these judges must believe that the California populace are nothing more than a bunch of moronic retards.

    The people of California must demand the heads of these tyrants, they should be unceremoniously thrown out of the California Supreme Court and they should be forced to sweep the street of San Francisco for the rest of their wretched lives.

    If unrestrained, someday in the near future these dishonorable black robed tyrants will grant the salivating perverts in a silver platter the age of consent lowered to eight years of age. Eureka, now the degenerates will be free to marry innocent little boys, which would be the pinnacle of all perversions, and also would open the doors to all kinds of unimaginable atrocities. How would you react Mom, Dad when someday Johnny, your little nine years old says to you? Good old Fred our next-door neighbor and I are getting married. It will happen very soon, check it out at http://www.nambla.org the North American Man/Boy Love Association.

    Americans must reintroduce the Word of God in Public Education, also they must reverse legalized “premeditated murder” on demand, and they must agree with God with one mind and write it into the law of the land that homosexuality is an abomination and by overthrowing Executive Order 13087 signed by President Clinton, who with Bible in hand bypassed the U.S. Congress and the populace and inflicted on society one of the many things God abhors the most, cramming homosexuals, bisexuals, and the transgendered in the federal and civilian workforce, in an attempt to normalize what once was cosidered an immoral and filthy addiction. Homosexuals must also be prevented from corrupting the minds of the youth, therefore they must be prohibited to adopt, coach, teach or have any direct contact with children, and they must be redirected back to the closets they came from, where most appropriately belong.

  9. Hnrast,

    Homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same, despite what Baldwin writes in Pat Robertson’s Regent Law Review.

    A majority of pedophiles who molest children have successful relationships with adult females. Some exceptions to that include a few thousand Catholic priests who are working hard to spread the word of God, just as you are.

    Perhaps we could model society after the Boy Scouts of America? All gay men are banished, leaving only heterosexual pedophiles to molest boys miles from civilization.

    You are arguing that homosexuals present a danger to society, and an even greater danger to youth. Imagine for a moment that the rule for who could “adopt, coach, teach, or have contact with children” was based on which groups presented the lowest risk for child molestation. Wouldn’t that rule all men out from these activities, as they represent somewhere between 96 and 99% of all molesters?

  10. First of all, I am only stating facts that the homosexual mind cannot comprehend, because their perverted behavior derives from God who gave them over to the sinful desires of their heart to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with other men, since they have exchanged the truth of God for a lie.

    God gave them over to shameful lusts even their women are exchanging natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and are inflamed with lust for one another, homosexuals are committing indecent acts with other men, and they are spreading and receiving AIDS, which is their due penalty for their perversion.

  11. “AIDS is not just God’s punishment for homosexuals; it is God’s punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.” – Jerry Falwell

    If God punishes individuals as you say, and presumably punishes them correctly so they receive their “due penalty”, it is right for doctors and scientists to work on AIDS treatments that might pardon these individuals from their punishment? Or does that interfere with God’s will?

  12. puzzling:

    Well when you start with a stupid premise, you usually get a stupid conclusion. So the answer is “no” under Fallwell’s crazy syllogism to question one, and “yes” yo question two.

  13. puzzling:

    “First of all, I am only stating facts that the homosexual mind cannot comprehend…”
    *******************
    You see hnrast can deduce and understand God’s will, something no homosexual has the mental capacity to do. Isn’t it wonderful that Chritianity saves you, and makes you the smartest person in any room–save god himself? I hear it also makes you run faster and jump higher than your fellows. The arrogance of this crowd knows no bounds.

  14. hnrast,

    I agree with you. God is love.

    Why isn’t he killing all the heterosexuals with AIDS? I hope he destroys all the women, men and children who have AIDS, especially the babies born with it. That will show God’s true power on earth. If God doesn’t kill those heterosexual babies very soon I will start to doubt his existence.

  15. hnrast,

    “God gave them over to shameful lusts even their women…”, So homosexual men are not homosexual, they are heterosexual? This is confusing. Who should I be rooting for God to kill?

  16. It does not matter one iota what homosexuals believe, what is really important and what really matter is what God has to say about homosexuals. The Creator and the Ruler of the universe has declared that those who engage in same sex fornication are committing an abomination unto God, suffering their due punishment.

  17. So should I root for God to kill heterosexuals via the AIDS virus or not? God is love, so who will he kill? Help me out here.

  18. hnrast,

    I am not asking an opinion from a homosexual. I am asking an opinion from you. So, is AIDS a disease in heterosexuals and a punishment in homosexuals, or is it a punishment in both cases? Should God kill everyone who has AIDS? What group should I be hoping that God will kill? Sould I hope he goes after everyone? God is love so who should he kill to best show His love?

  19. No man or woman has the power or authority to pass judgment on God. No homosexual will be able to nullify what God has declared to be an abomination. No amount of squirming, jumbling, and blurring of the scriptures, and no matter how many morally corrupt judges are condoning your perversion and ruling in your favor. Even if the whole wide world would be in agreement with you, no way in all creation you would be able to justify your homosexuality, because God, who is Omnipotent, Unsearchable, Self- sufficient, All-knowing and the Creator, Master, Ruler and Judge of the Universe, is judging you.

    You are only a sinful, frail, weak, mortal, finite and powerless human being, having only the God given authority to choose between life and death. God is commanding you to repent and turn away from your sins. Jesus knows the thoughts of man, and he knows that they are futile that is why Jesus in his infinite mercy has appointed heaven and earth as witnesses against you and he has set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now humble yourself to God and choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him, for the LORD is your life. Choose life, not death.

  20. hnrast,

    You’re make assumptions that everyone here is homosexual. So again, I am not asking an opinion from a homosexual. I am asking an opinion from you. So, is AIDS a disease in heterosexuals and a punishment in homosexuals, or is it a punishment in both cases? Should God kill everyone who has AIDS? What group should I be hoping that God will kill? Sould I hope he goes after everyone? God is love so who should he kill to best show His love?

  21. hnrast:

    “Now humble yourself to God and choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him, for the LORD is your life. Choose life, not death.”
    ******************

    Funny you tell me to humble myself before god, but when I look up it’s only you that I see. You must be remarkable indeed to personally get the message from the almighty. Tell me when you talk to him, does he talk back?

    _______________________

    Jill (aka sinful, weak and frail–and he got all that from a couple of comments–a swami indeed):

    Valiant attempt to get an answer but guys like this have turned over their entire intellect to a group delusion and simply mouth the words of some First Century text or more maddening, some ridiculous interpretation they heard in Sunday school or just as likely made up. Why not ask this saved soul if he has ever read the Bible that he so righteously spouts forth to us?

  22. My comments are mainly directed to those confused souls searching for truth, they are not directed to those who are following deceiving spirits and things taught by demons, such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose both their minds and consciences are corrupted and have been seared as with a hot iron, the disciples of hell, those in your face, hardened homosexuals who are already condemned and on their way to hell, weather they believe it or not.

  23. hnrast,

    I’m not certain what you mean by passing judgment on God. I am wondering why people who are deceived, be they gay or straight will be condemned to hell by a loving, all-powerful God. God created and controls everything. He lets loose the deceiving spirits, then blames a person for being deceived by them. This does not sound like any type of god that anyone should worship. There is enough cruelty in the world without adding a spiteful God to the mix.

  24. Jill:

    “Jill, no man or woman has the power or authority to pass judgment on God.”
    ****************

    Cue lightening and roaring thunder off stage. By the way, maybe hnrast can tell us why that is so since the authors of the Old Testament had no trouble making judgments about God and putting them into His holy book with His approval. Here’s one of my favorites value judgments from Nahum:

    The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

  25. hnrast,

    I would prefer to engage in real debate, but that seems unlikely based on your responses.

    Your original post on this thread appears to have found its way to many stops in the blogosphere word for word. The time and energy you have put into condemning homosexuality is staggering, both on this case and in frequent posts going back several years.

    The outraged responses to your writings are not surprising, since you are very open about your hate. Your full name (which you freely use elsewhere) even appears on a nationalist, white supremacist petition on affirmative action by Crosstar on nationalist.org

    While I first thought I was dealing with a run of the mill fundamentalist Christian, I admit that I was wrong. I deplore your views, and ask you to renounce them.

  26. Jill,

    The reason why people are condemned to hell is because of the original sin committed by Adam in the Garden of Eden. Adam by his disobedience transmitted to us sin, physical and spiritual death, consequently we are all born sinners condemned to hell, capable of doing unimaginable atrocities, just watch the evening news, that is why we are all under the wrath of God. The bible says, ”all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

    Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man, Adam, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man, Jesus Christ, the many will be made righteous.
    The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

  27. hnrast:

    When are you going to quit hiding behind that 1st Century book and give us reasons for your beliefs, instead of the usual I believe in the Bible because it tells me too. Kids argue by rote, adults are supposed to extrapolate information and draw conclusions. What facts makes you believe that you are saved and that most of the world of Hindus, and Muslims, Taoist etc are damned? I am guessing Christian arrogance but that’s just a guess. Why don’t you prove it to me?

  28. puzzling,

    Words like intolerant, hateful, judgmental, closeted homosexual are part of the arsenal used by mainstream homosexuals in order to intimidate and control those who dare to oppose them. But let me tell you that I know your modus operandi and all your insults and baseless accusations are nothing more than a diversionary smoke screen.

    Here is part of the Homosexual Agenda, and just like its proponents are based on falsehoods and deceptions.

    “How has one to two percent of the homosexual population achieved so much success in transforming American culture and restricting religious freedom?

    Part of the answer to the question is found in two publications (1987 and 1989) by homosexual activists Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen.

    Their strategy to change America’s perception of homosexual behavior included the following six points:

    1. Talk about gays and gayness as loudly and often as possible. (Through sheer perseverance the opposition will be worn down)
    2. Portray gays as victims, not aggressive challengers.
    3. Give homosexual protectors a “just” cause.
    4. Make gays look good. (Notice that the media always makes the “gay” character the hero)
    5. Make the righteous look bad.
    6. Solicit funds from corporate America and major foundations to financially support the
    homosexual cause.

  29. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

  30. mespo727272,

    Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.

    Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

    But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to God the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.

    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.

    Salvation is found in no one else, Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

  31. hnrast:

    It must be wonderful to have a monologue when everyone else is having a dialog. Here’s my favorite quote from your Bible that I think sums you up quite well. “Professing themselves to be wise they became fools.” (Romans 1:22 KJV). Plus I am still waiting on your reply to my assertion that everyone can judge God as the passage I cited above demonstrates.

    Finally, I cannot prove you guilty of sin as you are so quick to do to others. I can only prove you guilty of religious delusion, bigotry, and a tenuous grasp on reality. Your words, cherry picked from your magic book, are proof of that.

  32. mespo727272,

    Please tell me how old are you? On the passage above the prophet Nahum is not passing judgment on God he is merely describing the character and the nature of God. Your must understand that your beef is with God, I am only pointing you to the way, to Jesus Christ who is the way and the truth and the life, that leads to repentance.

    When Jesus Christ came down from Heaven as the God-Man he divided time in half, B.C. Before Christ, from the Latin Ante Christum and A.D.In the Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ from the Latin, Anno Domini Nostri Jesu Christi. Jesus also drew a line in the sand, thus forcing humanity the subjects of his kingdom to choose sides, a person will either choose to stand with Jesus, or a person will choose to crawl on the outside with Satan to be tormented in hell forever.

    My question to you is what are you going to do with Jesus Christ since you cannot get away from Jesus? You will have an encounter with Jesus now or you will have an encounter later on, on your way to hell, you can bet on it, one way or another you will meet Jesus Christ. Will you embrace Jesus as your savior? Or will you continue to embrace your homosexuality and at any moment, since you do not know the date and time of your death, find yourself in hell being tormented forever and ever? Are you willing to risk a temporary life of pleasurable sin on earth for eternal torment in hell?

  33. hnrast:

    “Nahum is not passing judgment on God he is merely describing the character and the nature of God.”
    *******************

    You and I don’t speak the same language if you say that calling another being jealous, vengeful, destructive, and full of wrath is not judging them. They are precisely words of judgment which you cannot see due to your warped perspective. Facts describe people, opinions like those judge them. Let’s take a test: I ‘ll call you those words and you tell me you feel “described” and not judged.

    on another point, I have not embraced homosexuality merely the right of those who do to co-exist which you in your simplistic, judgmental way cannot tolerate. You see, your religion is inherently intolerant and it derives that from the words in your Bible which clearly support that interpretation. The moderates among you are more tolerant, they just cherry pick the tolerant parts to believe. I must admit that you are closer in your theology to the actual text of the work, but that does you no credit.

    And while we’re on it, how about some proof outside of its pages that the fantastic elements of Bible (i.e the talking snake, parthenogenesis, humans flying without technology, etc.) are not merely some ancient text written by man to keep other people in line. You do that and I am interested in more conversation, otherwise I ‘ll leave you to preaching to the choir.

    Finally on the age thing, I am old enough to know a grifter when I see one, and nowadays the con always seems to involve a pulpit.

  34. mespo727272,

    Do yourself a big favor, stop making a fool of yourself and find someone honest you trust who can explain this to you, “the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ”.

  35. hnrast:

    “Do yourself a big favor, stop making a fool of yourself and find someone honest you trust who can explain this to you,…”

    **********************

    Thanks for the advice, and I already have had that conversation. That person gave me reasons for his beliefs or non-beliefs and didn’t quote verses from a book he had barely read and understood even less. That’s why I am trying to help you.

  36. Can-o-worms….

    Hnrast,

    I’m thankful for you unashamedly bringing Christ and His message. I agree with you on all the points of the gospel. I firmly believe there is eternal life only in a life-consuming reliance on what He did on the cross. I also believe that not one person here, including myself, deserves anything but eternal separation from Him for our previous and/or current rejection of Him.

    I would like to say something I do disagree with you in–the way you present truth. These people like dialogue. Reason with them in humility as a person who deserves hell as much as the worst of them. The truth of Scripture should absolutely not be compromised, but if your heart is more to prove you are right than to affectionately want them to experience and trust Christ, then they will continue to pick you apart.

    I do appreciate your sound understanding of the gospel and your willingness to bring the very Good News.

  37. Clint:

    You said to Hnrast: “I agree with you on all the points of the gospel.”

    *****************************

    Do you really want to be strapped with the following divisive comment from HnRast?

    “Jesus also drew a line in the sand, thus forcing humanity the subjects of his kingdom to choose sides, a person will either choose to stand with Jesus, or a person will choose to crawl on the outside with Satan to be tormented in hell forever.”

    I am sure your Jewish friends would be surprised to know that unless they repent, they are to be “tormented in hell forever,” while you and Hnrast sip sodas on the portico in Paradise. Do you really believe that? What about the millions of persons who are Buddhists or Taoists or just skeptics? Off to hell in a hand-basket too? A word to the wise, be careful agreeing with anyone “on all points.” They taste terrible sometimes.

  38. Hnrast:

    Are you working on that “talking snake” problem for me yet? Remember Cheney doesn’t count as a counter-example.

  39. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

    Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

  40. hnrast:

    The fundamental question, my dear hnrast, is not where is the philosopher, or scholar, but why is your religion valid and the rest invalid? Once that proof comes in, the rest falls neatly into place. Conversely until it does, your rantings and proselytizing are like “resounding gongs or a clanging symbols” in the wilderness. (For 200 points what Bible verse is this from?) Unless you recognize that not everyone in the world (in fact an overwhelming majority of the world’s people whom you yourself believe was created by god and is just as smart as you) doesn’t accept your premise as demonstrably true, you will never make any headway proving your point. As I said, anyone can convert the choir. Prove it, don’t just assume it. Talk to people, don’t preach to them as Clint wisely counseled you to do.

  41. But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task? Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.

  42. hnrast:

    Now THAT was helpful. About like running around the room with your fingers in your ears yelling nah, nah, “I can’t hear you.” Hey, here’s a little ditty from the Hadith that sounds remarkably like your unerring word, but is different. Note the similar diction and pace of the words. Also note the utter lunacy of the idea. Sounds awfully familiar to me:

    “Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds. Eternal Guardian of the heavens and the earths, Disposer of all created beings, Despatcher of Messengers (may the blessings and peace of Allah be upon them all) who were sent to those they have been entrusted to guide and to reveal the religious laws to, with positive signs and clear-cut proofs. I praise Him for His favours and ask Him to increase His grace and generosity. I bear witness that there is no god but Allah alone, He having no associate, the One, the Subduer, the Generous, the Pardoner, and I bear witness that our master Muhammed is His servant and His messenger, His dear one and His beloved….”

    See I can quote and talk right past you as well. I think you are an atheist as to the Muslim faith and I fear for your eternal damnation. Repent, repent, the end is near!

  43. hnrast:

    Here’s a another little quote I always enjoy but almost forgot. It seems to have application here.

    “Mark you this, Bassanio,
    The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
    An evil soul producing holy witness
    Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
    A goodly apple rotten at the heart:
    O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!

    (The Merchant of Venice, I,iii,87-92)

  44. Yes, Mespo, I do agree with him even in that statement…though I’d use different vocabulary. I never have and never will say that Christianity is not divisive. Jesus extends His offer of mercy to evil people and those who accept are forgiven. No one deserves a “shot” at salvation, Mespo. If God gave me what I deserve then I’d be in hell right now with the worst hypocrite. The problem is that we all tend to think we are inherently good people who do bad things. It is the opposite, we are inherently bad people who sometimes do good things. I have no desire to be offensive, and I do appreciate our dialogue but I do agree with Hnrast on the the points he presented as the gospel. I dislike much of his approach and I don’t know his motives, but he is communicating what I believe is truth.

  45. Clint:

    Well we’ll see what you tell your Jewish friends. You should know that you are out on the fringe religiously speaking even among your fellows. See the new Pew Forum US Religious Landscape Survey. The report finds that:

    “Most Americans agree with the statement that many religions – not just their own – can lead to eternal life. Among those who are affiliated with a religious tradition, seven-in-ten say many religions can lead to eternal life. This view is shared by a majority of adherents in nearly all religious traditions, including more than half of members of evangelical Protestant churches (57%). Only among Mormons (57%) and Jehovah’s Witnesses (80%) do majorities say that their own religion is the one true faith leading to eternal life.

    Most Americans also have a non-dogmatic approach when it comes to interpreting the tenets of their own religion. For instance, more than two-thirds of adults affiliated with a religious tradition agree that there is more than one true way to interpret the teachings of their faith, a pattern that occurs in nearly all traditions.”

    Now you apparently are saying that you and hnrast have it right and a majority of your fellows, equally pious and theologically sound, have it wrong. Why should anyone believe you and hnrast when a majority of those who follow and study your own faith do not. In fact, the survey is a rebuke to your divisive approach where you disagree with a self-proclaimed bigot only in his choice of words and not the conclusion he draws. This is arrogance at its height to say that only the fundamentalists have it right and that a majority of their fellow believers will burn in hell because they are not orthodox enough. Are you drawing the parallels to Islamic fundamentalists, because if not, you certainly should. Religion, as history has proven time and again, is divisive both externally and, perhaps even more importantly,internally. That is the onus it carries and the fundamental argument for its prohibition.

  46. The cost of following jesus
    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

  47. I never came up with what Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” He is the one who has it right. I could care less what “most Christians” say. I care what He said. Many “Christians” also slaughtered thousands of Jews and Muslims during the Crusades. Many “Christians” in Salem accused their rivals of witchcraft so that they could be burned alive. To be completely honest with you Mespo, most of American Christianity disgusts me. It does not follow the teachings of Christ, it throws rocks at homosexuals and then thinks its okay to hire a gay prostitute. If that is the Christ we communicate then you have every right to drag us all to the gallows and hang us.

  48. Clint:

    “To be completely honest with you Mespo, most of American Christianity disgusts me. It does not follow the teachings of Christ, it throws rocks at homosexuals and then thinks its okay to hire a gay prostitute. ”
    *******************

    That’s the precise self-loathing that many of us on the outside see as the psychosis of fundamentalism and the reason for our concern. It is not a long step from there to suicidal beliefs and the desire to take everyone else with them in some deluded attempted to bring on the self-fulfilling prophecy of Armageddon. If it disgusts you so, why not accept the futility of its message and determine to find your own way without this rickety crutch. At its essence is the belief that only you have it right and that is megalomania by any standard. How can that be a healthy world view?

  49. hnast:

    “The cost of following jesus
    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.”
    ****************

    That statement alone would be proof enough for any sane person that the message is deeply flawed, unworthy of belief, and should be consigned to the pages of history like Baal worship. Whatever happened to honoring your father and your mother or is that just another of the myriad of contradictions in your First Century guide to life. Masochism is a perversion to most people, but not apparently to your crowd.

  50. You proudly believe that your degradation is a virtue, but in reality you are morally corrupted from the inside out. Your corruption is so great that you are just like an empty photographic camera with a cracked lens. Your blindness has no bounds, most people have the ability to agree or disagree on various issues and stand on one side or the other, but you just dismiss the truth as non-existing.

    Apparently that is how homosexuals are able to wallow in their perversion, and go against conventional wisdom that views homosexuality throughout the ages as a filthy perversion. Homosexuals just dismiss as non-existing the side, which says homosexuality is a perverted abomination, insisting contrary to reason and facts that it is a perfectly normal behavior to stick their member inside the hole intended for excrement elimination or rubbing their females reproductive lips together, all in the name of love.

    Homosexuals are determined to hide their perversion by glossing it over with the word love. They say what the world needs is more love, but what they really mean is what the world needs is more perversion. If they could, homosexual would convert the whole world to their abomination.

    Homosexuals are demanding equal rights under the law but they already have equal rights under the law just like any anybody else. In reality what homosexuals want is preferential treatment under the law, because they want to normalize their filthy addiction. It is time for homosexuals to go back to their closets where they belong and wallow in their filthiness until it comes out of their noses, eyes and ears. You must stop to shove your abomination on the culture.

    Homosexuals like to scream “keep your religion to yourself” because the don’t like competition, they want to be first in imposing their religion of depravity, misery and death to the unsuspecting populace disguised as love, tolerance, fairness, equal rights and so on.

    The worst act committed by homosexuals it is not their filthy addiction, the worst act committed by homosexuals is their deceiving dangerous agenda to proselytize and convert by force straight America to their perversion. Anyone can read their diabolical agenda in the publication titled The Overhauling of Straight America by Marshall K. Kirk and Erastes Pill—- http://www.article8.org/docs/gay_strategies/overhauling.htm.
    MassResistance advice: As you read this, keep in mind that it was written in 1987 — less than two decades ago — and look around to see how far the homosexual movement has gotten using these techniques.

    Homosexuals have a huge inescapable problem even if they dismiss it as non existing, and his name is Jesus Christ, Jesus said “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur, commonly known as hell. This is the second death.”

    The Bible says “You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
    The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.”

    Jesus is saying to you, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

  51. There is nothing wrong with the message but there is a lot wrong with people. People will use good things for their own purposes. You believe that evolution is a good thing and Hitler used that to substantiate his desire to eradicate Jews. Does evolution teach that genocide of deemed “lesser races” is favorable behavior? No, but anyone can use the concept of natural selection to rationalize putting mentally-handicapped newborns to death.

    Take for instance the verse you quoted. Without understanding what Jesus is talking about and the context of that passage, I could rationalize expressing hatred and loathing to my parents even though He taught the exact opposite.

    Hnrast, homosexuals are not the enemy–sin is. Were you a better kind of sinner before trusting Christ? If love for these people is not what is motivating you to communicate truth then please go somewhere else.

  52. Hnrast,

    Homosexuals are not the enemy–sin is. Were you a better kind of sinner before trusting Christ? If love for these people is not what is motivating you to communicate truth then please go somewhere else.

  53. I firmly believe that America is being lead out of this very dark period of intolerance, prejudice and ignorance propagated and perpetuate by the over zealous fanatics of the religious right. And it’s our young people who are leading the way. After 40-50 years of teaching the next generations about the importance of people’s civil rights, women’s rights, etc. and the emergence of occupational, educational and social opportunities, they’re not buying the fear and the hate and the bias of their parent’s.

    Too many of us baby boomers were disillusioned by the deaths of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King and/or were bought off by greed that we failed to fully bring about the change we sang and marched and sat in for. This generation of 20-30 year olds are far more color blind, far more willing to accept women as bosses and equals. Far more men stay home with the kids while the wife is the primary bread winner. They are driving the political excitement and will be the margin of victory for President Obama.

    The rantings of the likes of hnrast, dundar, niblick are the last desperate cries trying to keep the old ways of hate alive. Their time is DONE. We will survive their intolerance and move our society forward instead of the backward track they would have us on.

  54. rcampbell:

    I could not agree more. These squalls from the right must sound remarkably similar to the dying cries of the dinosaurs just before extinction. As they sink in a mire of their own making, I think a new age is dawning for those who are tolerant and who can adapt to change. That is the great rule of survival in our world and, based on your comments here, I ‘m sure it is the one you taught so long and so well to your students.

  55. Clint:

    Here’s a flash: to hnrast everything and everybody not like him is the enemy. Sin is just the rationale. After responding to him, I want to clean my monitor and keyboard. I doubt he leaves–who else would have him?

  56. hnrast:

    Hey, found another quote that might interest you as you rail against the infidel:

    “Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
    And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

    (Matthew 7:1-3 KJV)

  57. You people are nothing more than a bunch of ass kissers, agreeing and patting yourselves on the back wallowing on your own crap. What measure you use to judge yourselves? The Lord says: But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand says the LORD you will lie down in torment.

    You think that you are progressive, well let me tell you that you are a bunch of degenerates rejecting the savior of the world, you are going to regret it when the time comes, and the time will come soon enough for you all.
    Jesus said, “I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.”

    And you hypocrite, the lover of homosexuals who pretend to be a Christian, the interpreter of the word of God, don’t you know that you can’t worship God and man at the same time, you must worship one or the other. God has commanded you to come out of the world. God says, you adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God”.

    God says, “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” “Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”

    Jesus warned us about your kind. Jesus said “Watch out for false prophets, they come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves, by their fruit you will recognize them. I know your fruit, you like to be on the fence so you can jump to the side that happens to be the most convenient at the time, and yes Pontius, make sure you wash your hands thoroughly because the words of Jesus may have contaminated you.

    Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”

    So you firmly believe that America is being lead out of this very period of intolerance, perpetrated by the over zealous fanatics of the religious right, well let me tell you that I don’t give a flip about the religious right or the religious left, I am here as a living testimony of the living word of God, and the word of God lives forever.This generation will pass away, and the next generation will pass away, and the next, but the word of our God stand forever. The Bible says “All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever.”

  58. hnrast:

    “You people are nothing more than a bunch of ass kissers, … wallowing on your own crap.”

    “well let me tell you that you are a bunch of degenerates…”

    “And you hypocrite, the lover of homosexuals…”

    ***********************

    Well we can tell by your words that the good ol’ Christian compassion and love are filling your soul. As the old hymn goes, “Ye shall know they are Christians by their love.”

  59. “You think that you are progressive, well let me tell you that you are a bunch of degenerates rejecting the savior of the world, you are going to regret it when the time comes, and the time will come soon enough for you all.”

    St. Augustine was a Neo-Platonist.

    Where does that fit within your eschatological musings?

  60. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
    He answered: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'”
    “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

    But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
    In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

    But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

    “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
    Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

  61. Early one morning David was enjoying a cup of freshly brewed coffee, when suddenly he sees flames shooting out of the roof of the house located directly across the street. David assumed that Jeffrey, who is a well-known self-proclaimed recalcitrant homosexual, is probably sleeping inside.

    Keep in mind that David is someone who does not agree with the homosexual agenda. He feels that homosexuals are invading and perverting the culture and hindering God’s plan of salvation. David being a Christian man considers homosexuality an abomination and he loathes the sight of them. But, David without hesitation immediately grabbed his cell phone and while he was dialing 911, he run out toward the fire yelling at the top of his lungs, “Fire! Fire!” and began pounding on Jeffrey’s door.

    There was no response, and after a few precious seconds David smashed the door down, and once inside, he crawled on the floor to avoid the tick smoke while yelling with all his might, but all he could hear was the deafening roaring of fire. After what appeared to be an eternity, he stumbled on a couch where Jeffrey was laying unconscious. As David reached the threshold with Jeffrey in tow, the roof collapsed with a thundering crash, at the same time several firemen came to their aid.

    When David neighbors learned of Jeffrey dramatic rescue knowing full well David’s aversion towards homosexuality, they couldn’t understand why David risked his life to save one of the very same ones he loathed. David answered, as follower of Jesus Christ I have done what God requires of me. “He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

    Jesus said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    “Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’ ”

    The church of Jesus Christ is under satanic attack like has never been since its inception by demonic teachers secretly introducing destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them with his blood. They have been very successful in perverting the love of God by introducing subtle lies mixed with truth, and by omitting from their false teachings key words like sin, repentance, judgment and hell which are the essentials for the salvation of souls. They shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces, they themselves do not enter, nor will they let those enter who are trying to.

    These deceivers are teaching that God is loving, forgiving, all-inclusive, affirming and in particular lover of practicing homosexuals, after all God made them that way they say. It is true in part that God loves everyone, but he is also a just God who cannot tolerate sin, all sins, including my sins.

    Jesus said, “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

  62. Hnrast,

    You said:

    “When David neighbors learned of Jeffrey dramatic rescue knowing full well David’s aversion towards homosexuality, they couldn’t understand why David risked his life to save ONE OF THE VERY SAME ONES HE LOATHED.”

    And then you quote Jesus’ command to love your enemy the very next paragraph.

    This is quite contradictory. “David” has no right to loathe any man whether he practice homosexuality or cheat on his taxes. There are only two kinds of people in this world–sinners and forgiven sinners. You seem to have forgotten Colossians 3:4-7:

    “When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. IN THESE TOO YOU ONCE WALKED, when you were living in them.”

    Scripture says you once walked in this same stuff you are throwing rocks at. You seem to be claiming moral high-ground when every single thing you have as a Christian is God-given. The guy that has sex with his girlfriend needs forgiveness just as much as a man with another man. Stop making homosexuals public enemy number one like all the right-wing quasi-religious weirdos do. We are all in need of reconciliation to God through Christ.

  63. The guy that has sex with his girlfriend and the guy that practice homosexuality and the guy that cheat on his taxes, once saved the Bible says, “he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” Therefore they cannot longer continue in their sinful ways. The spirit of God will lead them into all truth, meaning they will know for a fact what constitutes sin and they will develop a deep hatred for it. In the Psalms we read “He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake” and Jesus said, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth”

    An enemy, as the meaning of the word suggests is something or someone destructive and injurious, and all sinners including unrepentant homosexuals fall in this category. It is perfectly normal for a child of God to have a deep hatred for the sins they represent. The Bible says “To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.” “Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good”

    When God lived among the people he commanded Moses “But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

    But after the resurrection of Christ God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in the mind and the spirit of the believer, we read “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you”?

    Jesus is commanding me, to be merciful as he is merciful, and no loger “hate” my enemy, meaning I am not to do “harm” to my enemy, but instead Jesus is commanding me to “love” my enemy, meaning I am to do “good” to my enemy, regarless of my deep hatred. Christians must be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect.

    Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

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