The respected Massachusetts-based group Physicians for Human Rights has published a report finding that 11 former detainees showed clear signed of torture in medical examinations following their release from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and Afghanistan.. The detainees were released for lack of evidence of terrorism.
The 121-page report details evidence of torture, including beatings, electric shock, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation, sodomy and scores of other abuses. Retired U.S. Major Gen. Antonio Taguba, who led the Army’s investigation into the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal in 2003, wrote the foreword to the report and stated “There is no longer any doubt that the current administration committed war crimes. The only question is whether those who ordered torture will be held to account.”
The record on the American torture program is now comprehensive and unavoidable, including the recent disclosure that the Administration began work on the torture program long before any inquiry from the field, here — a direct contradiction of earlier statements from the Administration.
Despite the fact that interrogators and officials now admit to using torture, here, Congress continues to feign interest while withholding any substantive action against those who ordered a torture program.
For the full story, click here.
What is most striking is that these men were released for lack of evidence of terrorism. A recent study showed that the Administration continued to hold men for years after it became clear that they were innocent, here.
Who cares? We tortured these dirtbags. Who cares? They are animals, and that’s an insult to animals.
As whooliebacon said yesterday, we’re in some deep shit here. I can’t help but notice as more proof of detainee abuse/torture comes out, along with evidence of the administration lying us into war, there’s hyping of the danger of Iran.
Congress and law enforcment need to do their job before Iran gets attacked. This attack will be used by the executive branch to grab back the power they have lost. The ensuing chaos will be a source of great misery to most, but quite profitable to cheney and company.
If you think they care about the risk to everyone else, I would say look at their track record.
I am glad this information is being reported on. I am sorry for the horrible cruelty my country has inflicted on so many of our own and other people.
Big Al,
Your thinking is reprehensible. We are all animals. Humans are in the animal kingdom. As to your metaphorical meaning of “animals” as people unworthy of protection, your attitude is extremely unethical. It should matter to you that your own country picked up innocent, or guilty people for that matter, and tortured them. This is not a sign of goodness, intelligence or any kind of superiority to others. It is a debased way of thinking, unworthy of a strong, ethical, courageous person or nation.
Jonathan,
You said:
“The respected Massachusetts-based group Physicians for Human Rights”.
A respected group of who? The “Far Left Only”. When there is an agenda, there is a problem with the study. Wouldn’t you say?
Just review their website http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/
and you will see that this is a far left liberal group. I really find it hard to believe CNN gave this any attention, oh wait never mind CNN has become a liberal media outlet.
Jill,
Go hug a tree and pray that you have been safe since 9/11.
Jill,
I’m sorry to say this, but if we use interrogation techniques that may be borderline torture on an enemy combatant and we receive information to save American lives, then I’m all for it. These people are less than animals. They are not part of the animal kingdom. Are you that naïve to think that most of these people wouldn’t kill you on the spot, just for being an American? By the way, there are evil people in this world.
Oh NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, They actually took off some prisoner of WAR’s underwear.
Hmm, let’s see, they take off our heads, video tape it, put it on the internet – no big deal. We take off some scum bags underwear and some leftist MA physicians group wants to equate it torute. Can we possibley move the entire state of MA to the Middle East so they can be closer to home.
These people need to grow up. I don’t believe we cut off the heads of any of these guys. So don’t give me the line that this makes us just as guilty as them. We are at war, and these bleeding heart liberals need to realize this. Who cares!!!
How do we know the people detained even committed a crime? If they were never charged, what did they do wrong. What if you were walking down a street and they arrested you and detained you for three years. I don’t disagree with detaining a criminal or terrorist, but detaining an innocent person is wrong.
The US is creating more enemies this way. This leaves an extremely bad taste in their mouths and they will never forget this. They will raise their children to hate and we will have to deal with this later along with now. It seems some of the prisoners were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. We do catch some criminals, but how many inocent people will have to suffer also.
This is just food for thought.
Jake,
Please look into studies on the effectiveness of torture. Professional interrogators in our military do not use torture. Torture is great for obtaining confessions and a great deal of “information”, some of which may be accurate, most of it just made up to make the pain stop. This isn’t my opinion, it’s backed up by fact. Torture is not a practical way to obtain actionable intelligence. This, along with Rick’s point that we make a lot of enemies this way are just two of the practical reasons for not torturing. Professional interrogators are quite effective in gaining actionable intelligence without any harsh techniques.
Please explain why you believe Iraqis are not human. In what way? If we are willing to torture the innocent or guilty (and this is not panties on the head, it has resulted in documented deaths), then how does this make us human?
I will hug a tree today, that is not a shameful act. I will not pray as I am not a believer, and I have not been safe, nor have you, since 2000.
Jill
This is ridiculous. We are in a war and the actions that happen to allow us to win should not be known to the public. The article states that it is unknown if the detainees had history of mental disorder. This, to me, makes this article partly fiction and no use at all. CNN, you should know better to have all facts before representing. It does not state if these people were part of an Al Queda group, planning or orgnizing attacks on US troops or what they did to get arrested, etc. etc. I am dissappointed in CNN for publishing such an article with limited information just to rouse US citizens, and, frankly to allow the Taliban and Al Queda to laugh at how ridiculous the US is in releasing such articles. Unfortunately, these people are using our media to win a war and this is unacceptible. The military is fighting for our country and Afghanistan’s freedom, whether we were correct in going over there or not is not the issue, the issue is that we are there, so let’s show them our country is supportive of anything our troops do to gain information or come back alive. If this means torture to get information, so be it! Hopefully this brings us closer to ending the war and saving US lives, not Taliban prisoners.
How can CNN be so biased? To put a report fro a liberial group on the front page is just wrong.
When are we going to wake up and understand that people on this planet want to harm us? Saying mean things to someone is not torture. If they captured you, your head would go flying.
Why does evryone try to come to country?? Our freedoms are great and need to be protected. We fight for the right for every cowardly liberial to complain about the military.
How many American moved to Iraq or Iran to find a better life last year??
I’m sure there have been singular incidents of torture throughout the Afghanistan and Iraq War. I do not believe they were commonplace, nor do I believe they were sanctioned. Some people should not be placed in positions of authority over other people. They simply do not have the maturity to handle the responsibility entrusted to them. Those few that have tortured prisoners should be punished.
That being said, removal of underwear, being made to stand in humiliating positions, wearing a hood, the use of fear or intimidation (even through dogs barking at you) in my mind does not constitute torture. If we are to extract intelligence from people trained to resist interrogation, we must be able to have the threat of harm in order to get people to talk. What do people expect? “Mr. Sadir, are you a terrorist? Have you ever participated in armed conflict against the United States or her allies?” “No.” “Great, go on about your way. Have a good day.” Wake up America!
Interrogating prisoners is not wrong. Using threat and intimidation is not wrong.
Torture is wrong. Those who have done it, must be punished.
These people wouldn’t think twice about strapping explosives to themselves and blowing up children and you think torturing them for information is wrong? YOU LIBERALS ARE SICK, TWISTED, ANTI AMERICAN, and care more for the rights of SCUM then the lives of our own children!!!!
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.
—-Friedrich Nietzsche
TIME TO START BUSH’S TORTURE!! THE MAN WHO STARTED THIS MESS!!!
Disgusted US ARMY Vet!!
Allot of interesting feedback here. Bleeding heart hippie drug smokers know nothing of war and tactical situations REQUIRING torture to some extent. For those out there thinking Americans should not torture – they need to look at two “reminder” videos (both can be readily found on YouTube). The first – airliners slamming into our trade centers. The second, and most should prepare a puke bucket, are the 3-4 videos posted by these scum bag terrorists in Iraq cutting the heads off of live Americans. Treat yourselves and wake the hell up.
Light ‘em up. Any American that would defend terrorists should be tried as a traitor. The alleged “respected” physician group should have their US medical licenses revoked. These terrorist would kill you for simply being an infidel given half a chance. Please do not ever apologize for “all of America”, we Americans do not think like you.
This is amazing, these idiots were taken from the streets in the middle east, made fun of and are now showing just how smart they are. Getting the ear of the bleeding hearts in this country. Why dont we set them free, give them money for the alleged abuse so they can give it to terrorist groups, strap exposives to themselves, their kids and wives, blow up innocent people out buying food. would this human rights group feel good then?
Jill,
To the contrary, interrogation techniques that may be borderline torture are effective and useful.
You said: “Please explain why you believe Iraqis are not human. In what way? If we are willing to torture the innocent or guilty (and this is not panties on the head, it has resulted in documented deaths), then how does this make us human?”
This is a common liberal mistake. I never said anything about the Iraqi people. I said the “enemy combatants”. It’s just like Sean Penn going to Iraq and painting a picture that we are fighting the Iraqi people, which is so far from the truth.
IF your parents were living in Iraq, would you want them living under the tyranny of Saddaam or another country attempting to free their country? The United States has always helped the little guy and always will, regardless of how you want to paint the picture. This is one of the many reasons our country is great.
No one is above the law. Yes there were crimes committed, yes some of them were not very nice, and they were humiliating, but at times of war, when innocent people are in danger there must be extreme actions taken. Do you know that the ones they released, alive, and who were considered non-terrorists, probably were released because of information they gave. They probably want to say and show the world how the information was gotten so that we, as humanitarians will stop doing the things it takes to get the information from them. We have arrested many terrorists, people who kill and maim anyone who doesn’t share their beliefs about America, because of information obtained from these prisoners. Do you think that the enemy gave Daniel Pearle an easy time while he was in captivity? No, two wrongs don’t make a right, but when you are dealing with people who are trained to torture and to withstand torture, you have to do what you can to save innocent bystanders in this war. It would be ideal to be able to rationalize and reason with the enemy, and maybe offer them a pie for the information, but honestly this has been tried and we were stabbed in the back by doing so. War is ugly, war is dangerous, and innocents get slain, but war also produces peace when fought for the right causes. With the information society that we live in we are given too much information, and sown too many things from our side but none of which is from their side. I am sure if the young American woman soldier who was held captive had been monitored in captivity you would have been appalled at what she was put through.
I cant belive that AMERICANS feel that we are commiting crimes by holding suspected terrorist in jail, and then saying that our US SOLDIERS are so called torturing without cause is insaine!!!! They stated they have no previous medical backgrounds on these people, so they have no way of knowing what medical issues happend to them before they were in our custody, or was I one of the few that read that?!
I would like this group or anyone that feels this way to look into the eyes of the 4ooo + dead AMERICAN soldiers families, or the 1000’s of injured soldiers and family memembers and tell them to their faces that we AMERICANS are wrong for what a handfull of suspected terrorist claim we did to them…This group and any so called AMERICAN that can stand in front of soldiers and family members and say this, should be held in prison for a terrorist act in my opinon, saying or even thinking in that way is a form of torture!!!! These people have vowed to kill any and all AMERICANS, they use mentaly ill people, children to blow our soldiers and their own people up, they torture and threaten peoples family’s so that they will do what they want, and these are poor missunderstood good people????…Do you realy want them in your house, with your children, with your wife…if you trust them you take them into your home…I sure dont trust them, and what they are doing to our soldiers and their own people, thats the real crime.
I know I wouldn’t trust them in my home, but I would most likely trust an American soldier who lays down his life for our country and our way of life so that we can sleep in relative peace from enemies like those that are in captivity.
I agree, who gives a damn about how these terrorists are treated. No one cried out when they flew plane’s into our buildings in the U.S., much less about the beheading’s of Westerner’s for propaganda purposes. CNN should be ashamed for even covering this story and the American People should stand up and support our position on these Jihadist to remove them from the earth that we share. Send them to be with Ahla. Another thing is our Supreme Court passing a ruling to allow them legal assistance is ridiculous and if most American’s would understand that terrorist have no provision’s under the Geneva Convention, we could get this war resolved. I believe that the people of the U.S. should demand that Justice’s should be elected to the Supreme Court and not picked by Congress or President’s. Then, maybe we would get justice in our system.
Honestly I can’t say that I don’t give a damn about them, I do care that they have been through so much grief and propaganda in their lives that they believe in what they are doing, but I can’t condemn our government for doing it’s job in protecting the citizens of our country, even those who hate so much.
My uncles use to tell me about the horrors of WWII. One of them was a POW in Okinawa; the other was a enemy POW guard of Germans and Italians in Indiana. He would tell me about how he was tortued by the Japs. As a young naive kid, I would ask – why didn’t we do it to them? In their proud American wisdom they would answer – “American don’t torture. It is un-American to torture. If we did, then we are no better than they”. Americans are different.
There is no doubt who is winning the war on terror. Terror is not indescriminate attacks and IED bombings in the streets of Baghdad. It is having us be so weak-minded and frustrated that we feel like we have to change our moral values. They have succeeded in terrorizing us to the point that not only have we given up our civil liberties, but we have lowered our moral values to that of the terrorist. Torture is equal to Terrorism! I’m not defending terrorism, I’m simply cautioning those not to react irrationally to a frustrating situation.
It is hard to make the case that American is a decent, caring Christian nation. It will take a courageous leader to restore not only our credibilty to the world, but to restore our respect as a peace-loving, decent and civilized people. The only way is to police ourselves. Hold those accoountable for war crimes responsible for their decisions. And declare to never – never treat human beings worse than animals. If we continue, then those animals will have the moral highground to torture the next US fighter pilot who has to eject from the cockpit or the next US citizen who is taken hostage from an embassy. That could be your son or daughter.
FYI: There are 2 “Jake’s” on this. At least we have similar views.
Hmmm, Big Al…is that short for Al Quaeda? Sounds like you might be a terra-rist! Let’s hope that they get you in Gitmo so we can pump some info from you. A little sodomy to your liking? How about electrodes on the genitals? I think you might change your mind about who deserves to be tortured.
On a more serious note, Big Al, your attitude is reprehensible. Our Founding Fathers would be appalled at this kind of bigotted blood lust from Americans. Yours and the Bush administration’s ideas of what constitutes a legal interrogation are a slap in the face to anyone who believes in truth, justice and the American way.
The sick thing here is a few AMERICANS truly belive that what happend on 9/11 was our own government!!! Some people have more sympathy for these terrorist than our own countryman, for our own inniccent AMERICANS that lost there lives on that terrible day, or any that have went to war, not becuse they like war, because they feel a need to serve this woderfull free country of ours!
War isnt pretty, its not flowers and buying drinks at the club. War is hell, war is destructive, war is bloody, and sometimes its nessasary! No soldier like’s war, no soldier or there family memebers want war, it means heartache for those of us involved with it!
All this, poor little guy from a thrid world country, who didnt do anything wrong, except state they would kill all AMERICANS,and blow soldiers up as well as their fellow countrymen.. Shame big bad wrong AMERICA for keeping them in a cell, for trying to get infromation from them, makes me sick!!! Do these movie stars, and liberals turely think that these people wont come after them, do they think they are protected in some way??? All I have to say is dont call on SOLDIERS to save you when they come into your back yard and threaten you…oh wait.. you allready did, because they did come into our back yard and they killed us on our own soil, but we want to feel bad for them now…how quickly we forget!!!!
I think this is BS. I say that every time a suicide bomber blows themselves up and kills US Soldiers and/or Iraqi Civilians, we stick a chunk of C4 on one of these detainees and set it off! The Taliban has no regard for life and doesn’t fear death!
Their “cause” is a “religious cleansing of the world”! They blow themselves up and kill their own people in the name of their cause. They are laughing at us for caring about the treatment of these detainees and using it to further their propaganda of how we are infidels. They could care less about how those we have captured are treated! They probably hope that we kill them for the sake of being able to point a finger at us afterward!
These left-wing saps should all be sent to live on the streets of Bagdad so that they can see how those we are fighting treat people. Have they forgotten that they used mentally retarded girls to bomb markets!!!??? When THEY learn to live and let live, then and only then, will I feel there is any reason not to torcher the $hit out of them!!
People: Defending human rights and the CONSTITUTION is not suppoting terrorism. There are some very mentally ill individuals posting truly vile comments on this site. I feel for you Professor Turley. I know you would never curb anyone’s right to free speech but I couldn’t blame you if you banned a few of this awfully hateful commenters.
we’re torturing prisoners
maybe we should ask
Nick Berg..
Daniel Pearl..
Kristian Menchaca
Thomas Tucker
etc etc etc… the list goes on of beheadings, executions, tortures, set on fire etc etc
Jessica Lynch I’m sure was treated nicely while in their company… these bleeding hearts need to go over there and
tell them they are Americans and see how nicely they get treated………..whatever to whoever to keep this country safe from future attacks
watch the videos of americans being tortured you bleeding hearts. They are not going to change, you are being used as pawns in a media war, they want Obama…….McCain “08
“FYI: There are 2 “Jake’s” on this. At least we have similar views”
Yes, they are both sick and twisted.
Sorry John, for the most part I agree with you, but they already do that to our sons and daughters and they aren’t held accountable for their actions in such cases they are held in honor and praise by their comrades. You are right in that we have been terrorized to the point that we are doubting our government and our own people who are fighting this war. This is the ultimate power struggle, to make the people of America stand against their government and deny their own comrades the dignity of believing in them. The enemy has been very intelligent about this war. Our people are in doubt, which in turn will force a break in our willingness to back our government and stand strong. The enemy has created a negative image of American ways, and knowing us, because they do know us, mentally as well as our power, they will play this war psychologically instead of with power. The only way to bring a powerful government down is to create doubt in their own abilities. We have been told over and over about the wrongness of our behavior, of the greed of our nation, and now we are being made to believe that we are torturers? That we, the nation of honest hard working people, are torturing innocents for no reason, other than to create shame and humiliation? Does this sound familiar at all? Soon we will have flyers being dropped in all the big cities from airplanes above telling us of the conspiracy of the government and trickery that they are doing, oh wait that information is already out there on the net this time and not in the streets. We trained them, and they know what they are doing. Psychological warfare is where this is right now, and we must make ourselves aware of false information and know who to trust.
By the way, any of you screaming neocons notice that the article also ponts out that they did not get any information that would lead to a conviction or save a single life. Your premise that “we must torture to save lifes” could not be more wrong, in every way possible. You don’t get good informaiton by torturing people; you get whatever the person that is being tortured THINKS you want to hear. They will say whatever is necessary to make the torture stop. I do hope some of you end up in this position so you see for yourself. You will lie to them and tell them of your plan to wear a bomb-belt to kill innocent people just to make it stop (although, from what I have read here, I’m not so sure some of you would be lying. What a hateful mob!)
I want to start seeing more stories on the positives in Iraq, all you see is the negetives, the death and destuction, nothing good.
I would like to know what person can go to Iraq and come back and say we are not fighting a war against terrorist, they say we are fighting the people of Iraq??? Where did these people travel to, what did they see??? Did they spend any time on the ground, or just fly around and look down on the country and form an opinon that way?
Mr. Obama wants to pull troops out of Iraq, GREAT to hear, that means my friends and family memebers will not have to spend another year in the sand box ever again, but I dont think it will ever happen…does anyone remember a guy named Clinton that stated all AMERICAN troops would be out of Bosnia, Kosovo in 6 motnhs, UMMMM we are still there people! We cant pull troops out of Iraq now, if we did it would be a mess and we would be right back in the middle of it in a years time, these people need our support, our money, our help, we cant just leave them!
FastMovingCloud, I wouldn’t wish that upon my worst enemy….but if I were an army soldier who was involved in the interrogation I would be pretty insulted by your comments. I think I would be a little more informed and knowledgeable about my job to know when a person is not telling the truth, or do you doubt the training of some of our finest soldiers? Are you saying that if you were in a position of interrogating people you would not know your job well enough to do it right? These interrogators have been trained, and they are good at what they do, they are our sons and daughters, and they aren’t monsters like you seem to think. There was information given that would help arrest people but as security goes I am sure that the person giving the information wasn’t publicly claiming to have done so, and in order to protect these people who were released from prison, from their comrades, who I assure you wouldn’t think twice about killing them, we as humanitarians have claimed that they knew nothing. Of course in the media it is shown that we released them and there was never a cause for arresting them. Come on don’t you trust your people more than that?
FastMovingCloud,
I am assumeing that you then have been tortured?? Or that your some sort of a perfessional on the subject? Have you been involved in torture?
Just asking, you seem very informed on the subject of Torture!
John,
I understand where you’re coming from, but:
You said:
“If we continue, then those animals will have the moral highground to torture the next US fighter pilot who has to eject from the cockpit or the next US citizen who is taken hostage from an embassy. That could be your son or daughter.”
They already do this: Remember the beheadings? The soldiers that were burned and paraded through the streets? They do not need any motivation from us to be brutal killers, they are brutal killers.
With all due respect to WWII, this is a different time and place.
RJ & Donna,
I said nothing about torturing our troops, who by the way are not very happy with this tactic either. They, of course, would not fold. You, however, ditto whatever you are told by your Fox news friends and Rush. And RJ, no I’ve never been toruture but you have never been detained indefinitely for something you didn’t do without being told what you are being held for. You don’t have a problem with Americans detaining innocent indefinintely? If you don’t then you are truly unAmerican.
The cheney administration is very scared of this report. Obviously they have sent minions to get out their talking points on this blog and many other places today.
In case any of the pro-torture posters on this segment are sincere s (and not just administation hacks) I will address some of the errors in these posts.
1. None of the 9/11 hijackers were from Iraq. Iraq had no connection to the attack of 9/11. President cheneybush spoke of going to war against Iraq from the beginning of their administration, long before the attacks of 9/ll.
2. Torture has never been shown to be a necessary condition for obtaining accurate information. In fact, it is quite unlikely to lead to this, as many studies have shown.
3. There are evil people in the world who hate Americans and would/have gleefully cut off our heads and tortured us at a moments’ notice. This fact leaves us with a moral decision to make. Who are we? What is our moral value system? Who do we become in the face of fear?
4.It further leaves us with a legal question. Is suspending the constitution the one and only correct response to this situation?
Of course they have tortured US citizens. AND IT IS WRONG! If we also do it, we give them the authority to do it. (Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth) This is neener neener, you hit me so I can hit you, so you can hit me so I can hit you so you can hit me mentality I see among 5 year olds. We are better than that. We used to be a civilized nation. We used to be the greatest generation.
oh, of course I have a problem with detaining innocent people indefinitely. Innocent being the key word. For your information Fox new isn’t one of my favorite news shows but I do look at both sides and I don’t jump to the conclusion that our soldiers are all monsters so readily without the whole picture, like you seem to have. If there were people who wrongly tortured innocents then I am sure that our government will take care of that and punish those who did so. I trust that we have a just government.
5. Torture started at the top. The order to engage in torture came from the whithouse.
6. Acts of torture and debasemnet were not isolated incidents. They were routine.
7. Speaking the truth about what happened is not a sign of disrespect for our troops. Some people are just sadistic. most people are not. Many people will do things they would not ordinarly do when they are in a situation where their superiors are telling them it’s O.K., no one listens to their objections and they can be isolated for not following those orders, (which they were often falsely told, were legal).
The constitution and our ethics have to stand in difficult times. Keeping them in our hearts is easy when no demands are placed on us. They become most relevant when it is the most difficult to stand by them.
Do you honestly believe Cheney cares about this left wing study? Come on.
1. None of the 9/11 hijackers were from Iraq. Iraq had no connection to the attack of 9/11. President cheneybush spoke of going to war against Iraq from the beginning of their administration, long before the attacks of 9/ll.
My reply; So what you’re saying is, because 9/11 hijackers were not from Iraq, we shouldn’t go to war with Iraq? So we should allow Hussein to run his sword through Kuwait and his own people? It’s so funny how liberals forget things. Look up the history of Iraq since the early 80’s.
2. Torture has never been shown to be a necessary condition for obtaining accurate information. In fact, it is quite unlikely to lead to this, as many studies have shown.
My reply: What studies are you referring to?
3. There are evil people in the world who hate Americans and would/have gleefully cut off our heads and tortured us at a moments’ notice. This fact leaves us with a moral decision to make. Who are we? What is our moral value system? Who do we become in the face of fear?
My reply: We are a country that stands up for the people that can’t defend themselves. That is who we are. Liberals always complain about our foreign policy, but we need to be involved with and in other countries. Our presence is a deterrent in unstable regions.
4.It further leaves us with a legal question. Is suspending the constitution the one and only correct response to this situation?
My reply: Our constitution is a remarkable document, because 99% of it still applies today. But there has been changes. Look at the amendments. Our Founding Fathers had no idea what 9-11 would entail.
Jill,
5. Torture started at the top. The order to engage in torture came from the whithouse.
My reply: And what proof do you have? Must be from an extreme left wing blogger.
6. Acts of torture and debasemnet were not isolated incidents. They were routine.
My reply again: And what proof do you have?
7. Speaking the truth about what happened is not a sign of disrespect for our troops. Some people are just sadistic. most people are not. Many people will do things they would not ordinarly do when they are in a situation where their superiors are telling them it’s O.K., no one listens to their objections and they can be isolated for not following those orders, (which they were often falsely told, were legal).
My reply: Huh???? What??
Jill,
Why would the administration be scared? Sounds a little paranoid to say that I am a minion just because I believe in our soldiers and their decisions that are made.
Yes there was a problem with Iraq before 9/11, no one denied that. I am not sure about your claim that the terrorists, which they were terrorists, had no affiliation with Iraq. Are you claiming that they weren’t actually terrorists? Did they just decide to fly a plane into the World Trade Center for fun? No, not all terrorists are from Iraq, but most hate the U.S. Using the words torture instead of interrogation, is tricky in the second point you made. Many techniques were used in the interrogations at Guantanamo Bay, and information was obtained as I said earlier. Just because whatever media influence that you have has claimed that no information was obtained doesn’t make it true. Be careful not to fall into the false notion that our soldiers are against the country and the people of the United States by using inhumane techniques to obtain life saving information. Have you heard about the many arrests of terrorists made by our government? The information about the guilty people involved was obtained from somewhere, and I don’t think it was given freely, or with the promise of a lollipop at the end.
John,
You missed my point.
You said:
We used to be a civilized nation. We used to be the greatest generation.
My reply: We are the most civilized nation and we are the greatest generation. Look at the billions of dollars of aid for other countries. Look at all the military support we provide all over the world. Come on rethink your view. Look at the bigger picture here.
Very interesting!
Jill,
You said:
“The cheney administration is very scared of this report. Obviously they have sent minions to get out their talking points on this blog and many other places today.”
One other thing. You make the comment in your paranoid state of mind, that you believe Cheney Admin. has sent out people to refute these stories. I’m sure this happens a lot. But where did you come from with your extreme left views???? What you’re saying is, you can spew your views on sites like this as long as they are in line with the left.
You’re right, INTERESTING!
Donna,
How exactly would you go about determining which detainees are guilty and should be tortured and which are innocent? Would you use torture to find out? Even CIA experts doubt that more than one third of those being held are actually involved in terror. So, about 70% of those we have held for 7 years or more have done absolutely nothing and should not be held. They have been tortured too. That’s the point. It’s not just the guilty that are suffering.
And, I have never for one damn minute accused any of our troops of being “monsters” and very seriously resent the accusation. I have a nephew who is on his third tour of duty and he is not a monster. He is disgusted with the way this theater has been sold and mismanaged and is exhausted but he continues to do, in good faith, what is asked of him. It’s the good faith part with which I take exception. Our soldiers have been lied to, too. I actually support the troops in more than just rhetoric and a ribbon on my car. I send care packages, not just for him but for eveyone in his unit. Just because they are good people making the best of a truly bad situation, doesn’t mean that we should be torturing innocent prisoners, along with the guilty.
Well, I just read Donna’s most recent comment. The fact that you think Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 convinces me that I have wasted my time even trying to have a discussion with you. Only Fox viewers still believe that Iraq was involved and they refuse to give up on that lie. So, I’m finished! Continue spewing, if you must, but you will get no further responses from me as you are obviously fact-free!
FASTMOVINGCLOUD,
See you and I have a very diffrent opion of things. I have been around and involved in the Military all of my life, my Grandfathers both were lifers, my father, uncles, aunts, brother-n-law and Husband are all soldiers, so yes I understand how most soldiers feel about torture, thats why we dont practice torture! They also feel if interrigation is necassry to do to get infromation, then it will be done, and its not always soldiers that do the interrigation! They have been trained on tactics much like the FBI, CIA, or any police force, its not just any soldier told “hey privite go interrigate that combatant.” There are procedures, special trained individuals, and leagle methods used.
There were a few select individuals that choose to do the wrong thing either because they were sick, board individuals, or just plain stupid, who went agaist more than one policy and got caught in the act, and were punished by military courts. And by the way it was fellow soldiers that turned them in! The liberal thinkers out there try to lead other to think, “this is what all military is practicing” and its simply not true! Much as the same thinkers that spit on Veitnam vets returning from that war, called them “baby killers”, things of that nature.
Active Duty Soldiers are highly trained individuals,They train most of the year, are made to take class’s that not only pertain to their job duties but saftey, sexual harrassment, mental awarness, ect.. these men and women are tought to look out for one another. They are Professionals in what they do for a living, its more than a job to them, and they take what they do seriously, its not a game to them. They all want to come home in one peice. The last thing they want is to be shown or thought of as dumb, stupid, mean, uncaring individules, that dont know their jobs and just want to kick the crap out of an Iraq citizen for fun.
No I have never been detained in my life, then again I have never threatened to blow up or kill another living human being either! I am sorry, these people know what they are being held for, and they are being held because they have stated they want to kill AMERICANS! I do feel for their family’s, they are the innocent ones in all of this, much the same as our Soldeirs familys are! Just say we let one or 10 of these individuals go, we find them being held for no reason, then in a month from now we find out they walked onto a military post in the middle east and detonated a bomb, killing not only our soldiers but their own people then what??? What do you say to those people, I am sorry we were mistaken???
Can you tell that they are innocent, do you know for certain they are innocent people, would you take them into your home for a year, sort of like a probation period to make sure they are ok and not a terrorist? I wouldnt…So when they hold our Soldiers, or people from the press for no other reason than being in the country and having a AMERICAN uniform on, and then torture and kill them on tape, thats diffrent how? We are suppose to just forgive all that? We are not killing these combatants, we are not taping the killings and then showing to all of AMERICA..they are getting three hot meals a day, a bed a shower, any and all religous items they ask for, and now AMERICAN support with leagle issues, and they are not AMERICANS. Meanwhile our soldiers are lucky to get three hot meals a day, let alone a shower when they like. We are helping to clean up dead bodies in the streets of IRAQ when some nut decides to blow something up. Our soldiers are away from family for motnhs at a time, sometime with very little communication from home. Day in and day out sent out in harms way, never knowing if today is the day they might not make it back to the FOB, and this isnt a form of being held against your will, detained so to speak…torture is seeing dead bodys, that maybe yesterday you were talking with on the street. Or pulling a buddy from a blown up truck, and knowing you will never see them again.
Untill you have lived it, been there, had things such as this happen to you, and maybe you have…please dont say that these individules that are being held are inoccent of anything, if you can prove it then prove it, if not just keep it to yourself, becuse unless you have proof its just BS….
FastMovingCloud,
You said:
“Even CIA experts doubt that more than one third of those being held are actually involved in terror. So, about 70% of those we have held for 7 years or more have done absolutely nothing and should not be held. They have been tortured too. That’s the point. It’s not just the guilty that are suffering.”
My reply: So now you’re giving the CIA credit for correct information? How often have you critized them for providing wrong information to the President? Isn’t this part of the reason you’re saying Bush lied to the soldiers and Iraq? Huh, if it fits your agenda use it, if it doesn’t discount it. THAT is the liberal way!
Only in AMERICA can we have these sort of conversations and no be worried about being shot or our family threatend in some way….THIS IS WHAT AMERICA IS ALL ABOUT….FREEDOM!!!
oh okay you get to say what you want and your opinions, then the conversation is over? What does Fox News have to do with this? I am so sick of people, and I won’t say liberals because I am a liberal person, saying that anyone who doesn’t agree with them is misinformed. I never said that any of the terrorists had anything to do with Iraq, I said I am not sure about your claim that they didn’t. Actually I don’t think it was ever proven who they were working for, except that they were terrorists. You say you are offended about being accused of insulting the soldiers? Then stop doing it. You are insulting their intelligence by saying that they are willingly holding innocent people in prison. Congrats on your nephew in the military. I am sure that he loves the fact that you send care packages, put a yellow ribbon on your car and then go on-line complaining about actions his fellow military comrades are doing. Putting a yellow ribbon on your car is nothing if there is no meaning behind it. Soldiers and civilians alike are working like hell to get the right information to the proper people so that just decisions can be made, and I hope you are aware of the paperwork involved and of the analyzing of information given that must be done in order to detain individuals on terrorism charges. By saying that they are innocents who are unlawfully detained YOU are criticizing the military soldiers and civilians who obtained the information to hold the prisoners. The CIA is not the only ones who get information you know and their information is not the sole reason for holding the prisoners.
Wow,
I think this site is being attacked with a far right crap bomb. You don’t have to be in the military to know that torture is not effective. Just ask Colin Powell who has said it doesn’t work. Just ask the FBI that refused to use the techniques and reported the abuse up the ladder when they witnessed it. The Army Field Manual outlaws torture. The United States has laws against torture and we have signed international agreements outlawing torture. If torture has worked, why won’t the Bush Administration tell us the details. If they already stopped the alleged acts of terror, they should be able to disclose the acts and provide us the proof. The Bush Administration has already declassified information to out a covert CIA agent for pure political gain, so declassifying the terror plots that they have stopped should be no problem for them. Plus, you obviously have forgotten who was in charge when we were attacked on 9/11. And where is Osama Bin Laden?? Bush couldn’t care less because he was too busy in Iraq. All of you neocon wannabees should join the CIA and get involved in the torture. Oh, wait a minute, I forgot that the CIA has reportedly stopped these abusive techniques. Maybe you can just practice waterboarding on each other to maintain your edge.
Why, exactly, is it that you are so angry that you feel you must torture, debase, and hold prisoners for years without any rights
while it is a bright, shining lie that Iraq is connected to 9/11.
9/11…a NeoCon Pearl Harbor. Sadly you continue to buy into their lies while they laugh at you because you are sheep-like and stupid.
NeoCons are white collar criminals clothed in choir robes. Nothing more nothing less.
They instill you with fear so they can steal you blind…they get deferments so you can fight, ignore Katrina victims because they mostly vote democratic, go to war with the army you have, an army that has to make its own armor, an army that is fed dirty water, an army that is given experimental drugs, an army exposed to depleted uranium from US armament, an army kept on active duty tour after tour, an army that never leaves, never returns home just “Something that’s not important”, vets that go homeless waiting for benefits, vets that rot in outsourced VA hospitals.
Add that wonderful slogan, if you don’t believe any of their crap, you are not Patriotic. You hate America.
Don’t ever forget that your statements put you in league with these people…you are what they are.
rafflaw,
So I guess your gibberish is the far left crap bomb? The right has as much right to voice an opinion as the left.
You are so naive. Do you really believe the general public needs to know every little action the CIA and FBI make? By disclosing certain information about disrupted terror plots, could quite possibly jeopardize others. Oh yeah, but you’re a liberal. You believe the janitor at Microsoft has a right to know everything Bill Gates knows.
As for torture and aggressive interrogation techniques, there is a fine line. But if it saves lives, even liberals, then I’m for it.
You said:
“Plus, you obviously have forgotten who was in charge when we were attacked on 9/11.”
My reply: Well obviously you just discredited your thought process. It is well documented that the planning took years, Bill Clinton was in office and had opportunities to eliminate this scum bag. Let’s all hope Obama isn’t elected, because terrorist will have an opportunity to build up and plan another attack on our soil. God forbid!
whoolie bacon (what part of this makes you want to say, “whoolie bacon Batman!”),
Your paranoia is shining through. Do you actually believe the US government had something to do with 9/11? If so, please share why?
But what if we tortured someone who was innocent? Is there any recourse for that?
What if your brother was a bad person and you are arrested and detained for years and tortured because of your brother?
Even the worst of the terrorists deserve a fair trial. I’m sorry, I think that if found guilty they deserve the fullest punishment of the law but for us to torture people means that the terrorists are winning.
And when did thinking we should adhere to the Constitution (by giving someone the right of habeas corpus) makes me a traitor???
“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.” I guess I don’t need to tell you who said that because you love america more than me…
jasonconga,
I would say Jefferson, but that wouldn’t be correct. More like a liberal around 2002 selling bumper stickers and stuff.
Here is the problem with the left. Liberals like to voice their strong liberal opinions and their right to free speech, but as soon as a conservative starts to question and push back a little, they are all up in arms. It’s just like people who hate foxnews. Liberals believe foxnews is the evil empire. It’s just another view, contrary to yours. If it were not for us on the right, your liberal views wouldn’t matter.
Aggressive interrogation techniques to save a life, an American life.
I was originally going to try and make a humorous post about how childish this whole conversation is, but it makes me sad that we’re actually having an argument about torture being right or wrong. I think in the end the best argument against torture has already been made and cataloged several times over. It’s the pictures of the victims Khmer Rouge’s “interrogations” in the prison S-21.
Psy-ops is busy today!
Jill,
Get over yourself. So what group are you with and who are you trying to influence? Since you’re trying to label the conservative views on this website, it’s our turn.
Jill the Moveon.org representative is busy today! Wish we could read more of your extreme liberal views.
Gyges,
The debate isn’t as clear cut as you like to make it. Should we pay for a public defender as soon as an enemy combatant is in custody?
The fossils say No!
Jake,
I just did a quick scroll through of all of the comments, and as far as I can tell the debate hasn’t been about what legal council that the “enemy combatants” have a right to. It’s been about if it’s o.k. to torture\aggressively question people. My argument addressed that question. So yes, THIS debate IS as clear cut as I make it out to be. To give an analogy, the U.S. courts say that prison guards can’t beat the convicted criminals in their care, but when they made that ruling they didn’t say “well I guess since you can’t beat prisoners, you have to set all the criminals free.”
I’m sorry but changing the subject to one that’s roughly related doesn’t mean you win. Neither do personal attacks on those who disagree with you (I direct this at everyone), and I’d suggest that we all avoid the fallacy of the unbounded middle. The last mainly because I don’t want to get in an argument about true Scottsmen and the presence of sugar in their oats.
That “convicted criminals in their care” should probably be “Convicted criminals in their custody.”
Gyges,
You had me laughing about the oats….
My point about the public defender is somewhat related. If we are willing to give “enemy combatants” all the rights of a US citizen, then the next step would be to read them their rights. The farther you go into this the more gray it becomes.
What’s the difference between “torture” and “aggressive interrogation techniques”? Gray area I would say. I just think it comes down to marketing.
Just like “jungle” to “Rain Forest”. (tongue in cheek)
Gyges,
Agree.
However, facts are irrelevant to the “torture” crowd.
Maybe someone could come up with a torture lapel pen these folks could proudly wear to prove they are patriotic.
Gyges:
I ‘ve been amused at this thread too. One of the Jakes is obviously a right wing plant, since noone in their right mind promotes torture so why debate it. It’ s illegal, ineffective, and just plain wrong, and anyone who can’t see that is unworthy of respect or reply. Jill is quite a moral person and is trying to rationalize with him, but to what end. Jake is an abusive ideologue who thinks invective outweights thought, and his argument devoid of any factual basis can be stated simply as : I am afraid, I want these people punished guilty or not, and the law won’t stand in my way. He waives about this talisman of liberlaism as if it produces some stain on your character. Well I ‘m not afraid of the term, since I don’t assume someone is correct or incorrect in their reasoning because of a label some frothing opponent places upon them. That goes for the conservative label too. It’s facts that make arguments not beliefs or opinions, and Jake et al are sorely lacking those pesky things. It’s like a college freshman bull session, but with one difference, this one not as erudite.
What we have here are some kids, and probably niblet, making one last gasp attempt to save this Administration from its criminality with a “might makes right” argument. It won’t work because expediency doesn’t trump the law in any civilized society, and these commentators, hopelessly trying to defend the indefensible, place themselves outside of civilized discourse.
Neo-criminals, RIP — your time has passed.
Jake,
Again, we’re not talking about what rights they have, just about the morality of torture. You can quit trying to change the subject, I’m only easily distracted by shining thing.
Jake:
Just to correct a little legal error as you rant on. Natural persons are accorded human rights by a civilized country based upon you presence there, not your citizenship. Illegals enjoy basic human rights under our Constitution which accords rights to “persons” not just “citizens”, even the illegals at Guantanamo Bay where American law still applies. That’s the point of the ruling, your ravings notwithstanding.
Gyes:
Discussions of morality without mention of human rights is like discussing child birth without mentioning the mother.
mespo,
Let’s get your facts straight first. Ms. Jill started the name calling, which typically begins on the left side of the aisle.
If you try to overanalyze my words and somehow believe I am promoting torture. Well you are sorely mistaken.
My point:
Aggressive interogation techniques should be used to protect “our country” from “terrorists”.
Not one time in this thread did I ever say I am for “torture”. I am for aggressive techniques to help uncover and/or protect our interests.
Neo-criminals, very funny. It only proves that you are exactly what you describe. It’s a shame you do not see it. I am open to debate. I have said many times, Liberals are not always correct, nor am I as a conservative.
I see you like to throw adjectives around like nickels. It’s just a poor attempt at intimidation. It smells of Freshman Comp 101.
Gyges,
“I’m only easily distracted by shining thing.” Then maybe you shouldn’t look at all the nickels mespo is throwing around.
Mespo,
Don’t waste any more time on these neocons. They don’t bother with facts and just try to keep yelling stop the terrorist any way that you can. Jake, et al, If you can’t deal with reality and understand that is a country based on the rule of law, not the rule of the mob, you may actually learn something here. One more thing, you may want to read the 9/11 commission report to actually find out about George W. sitting on his hands and ignoring the threats. Finally, if the rule of law means nothing to you, maybe you should just ask yourselves one moralistic question concerning torture. Who Would Jesus Torture?
rafflaw:
Don’t worry. Why try to teach a pig to sing, it’s impossible and annoys the pig. Believe me the guy calling names is always losing the argument as is evident here. And the use of euphemisms to mask torture is positively Bushonian. I am glad he liked my adjectives though. Wonder what he would do with a gerund?
Psst, between you and me he does appear a tad intimidated as methinks he doth protest too much that he is not! He went from “…if we use interrogation techniques that may be borderline torture on an enemy combatant and we receive information to save American lives, then I’m all for it. These people are less than animals,” and the popular “who gives a damn about how these terrorists are treated,” to the now chastened, gosh, golly gee, I only meant “aggressive interrogation.” If he double spoke any more it would be stereo. To paraphrase Bogart, I don’t mind a foolish, self-deluding commentator, I just hate a cut-rate one.
I just found this info:
posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 from McClatchy news:
Documents confirm U.S. hid detainees from Red Cross.
The far right used to be more courageous. “Better dead than red.” Now it’s, “better safe, make others sorry”!
I meant to put quotes around safe. This way of acting makes no one safe.
Jake:
“My point: Aggressive interogation techniques should be used to protect “our country” from “terrorists”.”
“I agree, who gives a damn about how these terrorists are treated.”
‘They hate us for our freedoms’
‘The war on terror should not be restrained by the constitution.’
‘The restraints of the constitution are inapplicable during ‘the war on terror.’
‘The judicial branch should have no say or checking power against the executive in his war on terror– e.g. no habeas corpus’
N.B.
“The principle of the separation of the powers of government is fundamental to the very existence of constitutional government as established in the United States. The division of governmental powers into executive, legislative, and judicial represents probably the most important principle of government declaring and guaranteeing the liberties of the people. It prevents the exercise of autocratic power, is a matter of fundamental necessity, and is essential to the maintenance of a Republican Form Of Government. In short, this division of power provision serves to create a governmental structure “resistant to the forces of TYRANNY… Although there may be a blending of powers in certain respects, in a broad sense the safety of our institutions depends in no small degree on the strict observance of the independence of the several departments. Each constitutes a check or balance upon the exercise of its power by any other department, and, accordingly, a concentration of power in the hands of one person or class is prevented, and a commingling of essentially different powers in the same hands is precluded.” (SEPARATION OF GOVERNMENTAL POWERS, Importance and purpose of [the] principle, 16A Am Jur 2d CONSTITUTIONAL LAW § 247)
“In short, [the separation of powers] serves to create a governmental structure “resistant to the forces of TYRANNY”
‘They hate us for our freedoms.’
‘The ’separation of powers’ doctrine is the only portion of the constitution that truly makes us free.’ (See Lord Scalia’s Separation of Powers opinions; e.g. Minestretta, et. al.)
‘The most effective way to fight the war on terror is to disregard the constitution.’
‘Disregarding the restraints OF specifically enumerated powers in the constitution makes us less free.’
‘If they hate us for our freedoms then disregarding the document that makes us free will therefore make us less hated by terrorists.’
‘The less terrorists hate us the less likely they’ll be to attack us.’
‘Therefore, the best way to protect ourselves from terrorists and fight the war on terror is to hate freedom as much as terrorists and be more hateful of the document that makes us free; e.g by setting up a government unfettered by “constitutional restraints” or any other ‘division of power provisions’ formerly serving to create a governmental structure “resistant to the forces of TYRANNY.’
After all…
911 changed everything.
And Jake,
Vincent Bugliosi: “Personally, I have no animus for Democrats or Republicans. But my contempt for the right-wing of the Republican party has no boundaries. The right wing of the Republican Party, of course, is the group that always likes to loudly proclaim its patriotism. But if they had a patriotic bone in their body, which they do not, then, for example, they would want the president of the United States, even though he’s a Democrat, to do well. Why? Because if the president does well, the entire country does well. But they only want the country to do well if one of their own people is in office. If not, they’ll do everything to destroy the president, whether he’s Clinton or any other Democrat.
…
“I should add that those whom I find particularly nauseating and disgusting are the many liberals in the media who cater to the far right-and therefore, aid and abet their cause-while quietly detesting them. These physiological marvels are somehow able to sit and stand erect in front of a camera without a spine.”
Mespo:
“Why try to teach a pig to sing, it’s impossible and annoys the pig.”
I’ve used a similar quote for almost twenty years, and the only source I have is my former college roommate meandering around the dorm drunk off his a$$. It was his response to the RA when he told us to be quiet.
Jake,
You never told us why you’re so eager to have ‘the terrorists’ like you.
Please regale us.
Bob,Esq:
It’s from an opinion in the Pennsylvania Supreme Court in a case I read in law school. I forgot the cite.
mespo727272 & rafflaw,
“Believe me the guy calling names is always losing the argument as is evident here. And the use of euphemisms to mask torture is positively Bushonian.”
My reply: You have called me a neocon a few times. So who is name calling, hypocrite. Let me ask you this, do you actually believe that “everything” that you believe is correct or right? I’m getting that impression, Hitler.
Also, I am not masking torture. Aggressive interrogation techniques lead right up to torture. That is why this is such a gray area.
“Don’t waste any more time on these neocons.”
“One of the Jakes is obviously a right wing plant.”
My reply: Can a conservative have a strong opinion and voice it in the same forum as a liberal? Why am a right wing plant?? What are you? Sounds like paranoia to me. Oh yeah, paranoia is alive and well on the left.
“They don’t bother with facts and just try to keep yelling stop the terrorist any way that you can. ”
My reply: We should stop the terrorist any way we can. AS for facts, let me see, liberals “follow” Al Gore and Michael Moore like they are righteous Gods. They are only propaganda whores making a profit. Using half truths to fit their agenda. Who needs enemies when you have shepherds to lead the liberal blind. So what are you talking about?
“One more thing, you may want to read the 9/11 commission report to actually find out about George W. sitting on his hands and ignoring the threats.”
My reply: And what did it say about Bill Clinton? If his balls were not in Monica’s hands, he may have stopped the 9/11 attack well before it ever happened. But I’m sure when a Democrat is in office and a terrorist attack happens, you wing nuts will blame it on Bush. How convenient.
Bob, Esq.,
I never said that I cared? Some of these guys in this forum believe that a terrorist that is willing to walk into a crowded market and detonate a bomb, should have rights. The only rights that they should have are 40 virgins, in a male prison.
http://www.boycottliberalism.com/Toptenlies.htm
Enlighten yourselves…….
Jake,
It is interesting that you consider being labeled a neocon as “namecalling” but labeling someone Liberal is not? You claim that Al Gore and Michael Moore are “propaganda whores”, but provide us no evidence of their “half truths” as you call it. By the way, torture is not a gray area. We have prosecuted Japanese, German and American soldiers for torture. Was it a grey area then? One last comment. When 9/11 happened on George W’s watch, Clinton was blamed by the right so we are used to it. The 9/11 commission did point out things that Clinton should have done, but when the first attack on the Trade center happened, the Clinton administration found the guy responsible(the Blind Sheik) and put him through the justice system and convicted him without torture and without stripping him of constitutional guarantees.
jake:
Calm down. Personal animus is the mark of a losing advocate too. Let’s see now, I made an accurate description of your political views, which you find offensive despite its neutral denotation, and you resort to such edifying words as “hypocrit,” and “Hitler, and then imply obsequiousness on the part of me and rafflaw by referring to us as needing shepherds and being “followers.” I can assure you liberals are no such thing, and most of us have held our views long before Gore and Moore, but it is a peculiar trapping of conservatism that its adherents believe that the world of political thought began the day they were born and everyone else is simply wrong. Liberals, if you must use the label of the intellectually lazy, have as much claim to the credit for the founding of this Republic as conservatives, and given the conservatives fondness for authoritarianism, probably more credit is due the liberals. No sane person can argue this Country is not in a mess of the conservatives own making, especially in view of their domination of all branches of government from 1994 -2006. Take your medicine like a man, and just get it through your mind that your crowd has had its chance, utterly failed, and now must come hat-in- hand to the “liberals” to fix your mess. We’re up to the task. We’ve won WW2, forced us out of that hell hole in ‘Nam, and insured the rights of most Americans through law and social change–all that in just the last 70 years. You dinosaurs can come back around in 30 years or so and divide the Nation again on such “crucial” issues as school prayer, abortion, flag burning, gay marriage and on and on, once we have things in order. Inept conservative whining about liberals always reminds me of the famous comment about Winston Churchill before WW2: “…all it took was one big scare and we were on our knees to Winston Churchill.” Today all it takes is one across-the-board disaster of a President, and the Nation looks again to the liberal adults to reign in the conservative kids who just want to play “cowboys and indians” with our foreign policy,and “Monopoly” with our economy. Talk to me again in 2009, and we’ll see if your dire predictions come to pass, or if, like most of your brethren, you’ll slink back into the woodwork awaiting the next chance to rise and criticize. There is one thing that may provide you some hope. Many people, as they intellectually mature, become more liberal in their outlook–certainly the most educated do and hence Bush & the neo-con’s appeal to those with the least education. Maybe with a little intellectual elbow grease, time is on your side.
Jake:
“I never said that I cared?”
Question your own words often?
“Some of these guys in this forum believe that a terrorist that is willing to walk into a crowded market and detonate a bomb, should have rights. The only rights that they should have are 40 virgins, in a male prison.”
Unfortunately Jake, your methods & ideals aid and abet the first and foremost enemy of the constitution.
I find your lack of fealty greatly disturbing.
http://www.76house.com/history_tavern.html
Mespo,
“It’s from an opinion in the Pennsylvania Supreme Court in a case I read in law school. I forgot the cite.”
That’s O.K.; I heard it borrowed from Shakespeare.
rafflaw,
Again you missed my point. Everything right up to torture is fair game. The gray area is defining that line.
Your shepherd Al Gore (this is only one of many articles):
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=a_convenient_lie&ns=JohnStossel&dt=07/05/2006&page=full&comments=true
Your other shepherd Michael Moore (again, this is only one of many articles):
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:KfAWCHfwexoJ:www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm+michael+moore+9/11+lies&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Your comment:
“When 9/11 happened on George W’s watch, Clinton was blamed by the right so we are used to it. The 9/11 commission did point out things that Clinton should have done, but when the first attack on the Trade center happened, the Clinton administration found the guy responsible(the Blind Sheik) and put him through the justice system and convicted him without torture and without stripping him of constitutional guarantees.”
My reply: So you’re saying Democrats are just like Republicans? Blame the other guy. Guess we are very similar in many ways. Hurts doesn’t it. I’ll stop calling people Liberal and just call them Neolib….since that isn’t name calling.
Also, there are differences with the first attack and second. Most of the people we have rounded up were in the “war zone” and not US soil. They are enemy combatants and not just someone arrested in the US.
Bob, Esq:
I’m sure the good Pennsylvania Justice did too.
Mespo and Bob, Esq.,
You have restored my faith in the abiltiy of the American public to think about larger issues of Constitutional protections and the rule of law. I could not believe the willful ignorance that I came across in the comments section yesterday, especially given the great and learned legal mind of your host. The two of you have eloquently stated everything that I wanted to but, obviously, failed to get across. Thank you.
FastMoving Cloud:
I think you did just fine and likely inspired us both to get involved. As for larger issues, we lawyers think about them all the time, despite what you read in the press.
Bob, Esq.,
Jake:
“I never said that I cared?”
Question your own words often?
My reply: What words????? Please site your source.
mespo727272,
Not to worry. I consider this a friendly debate. I understand the need to have at least 2 sides for balance. Do you?
As for power. What have the Democrats done since 2006? Have they proposed any changes worth proposing? This is government. So to blame the Republicans for all the failures between 1994-2006, then you must give them credit for all the successes. Right?? Boy the economy was great during Clinton’s first 7 years. Good thing for the Republican domination and control.
Jake:
I like fiery debate, just with less heat and more light. I agree the Repubs have made some progress and their emphasis on national defense will find few detractors. The issue isn’t goals, it’s means. No one has all the answers. Right now, my side looks like its getting a chance to perform. We’ll see what happens.
Jake:
Just a little correction on the economy during the Clinton years. While no President can take full credit or blame for an economy, the following facts are true:
1. In the 8 years of the Clinton Presidency economic growth averaged 4.0 percent per year, compared to average growth of 2.8 percent during the Reagan-Bush years. The economy grew for 116 consecutive months, the most in history.
2. The economy created more than 22.5 million jobs in less than eight years—the most jobs ever created under a single administration, and more than were created in the previous 12 years. Of the total new jobs, 20.7 million, or 92 percent, are in the private sector.
That’s prosperity by any measure, and coupled with mostly peace abroad, stands in stark contrast to today’s environment.
Here’s the lead from an article I read in the Post yesterday and germane to our subject:
“The two-star general who led an Army investigation into the horrific detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib has accused the Bush administration of war crimes and is calling for accountability.
In his 2004 report on Abu Ghraib, then-Major General Anthony Taguba concluded that “numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees.” He called the abuse “systemic and illegal.” And, as Seymour M. Hersh reported in the New Yorker, he was rewarded for his honesty by being forced into retirement. ”
That massive flock of chickens you see overhead is tracking to the Potomac, and here’s the cite to the article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/06/18/BL2008061801546.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
I just heard an interview with Philippe Sands, author of: Torture Team.
He was on npr’s program, Terry Gross. The link is below. This is a very clear discussion that takes on just about every pro-torture talking point, most especially the usefulness of “harsh” interrogation techniques. He also says that cheney and friends (including the lawyers) may pardon themselves or use MCA to adsolve themselves from prosecution in the U.S. but they cannot be held harmless in international courts. I believe he was interviewed by Bill Moyers as well.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91684540
mespo727272,
Excerpt from Washington Post article:
Poll Watch
Harris Interactive reports: “The latest Harris Poll finds the nation in a foul political mood. President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice all register their worst ratings ever. More people than ever also think the country is on the wrong track. . . .
“President Bush’s latest ratings are 24 percent positive and fully 75 percent negative. Previously, his worst numbers were 26 percent positive and 72 percent negative in April of this year. His ratings are substantially worse than those of any president, except for Jimmy Carter (22%-77% in July 1980), since Harris first started measuring them in 1963.
“Vice President Cheney’s ratings are even worse, 18 percent positive and 74 percent negative, compared to his previous low of 21 percent positive, 74 percent negative last July.”
My comments:
Then on the last page of the article I clicked on the Harris Interactive Poll and read the report. The next paragraph in the article should have included the following paragraph from this report, just to keep things in perspective. In my eyes this totally discredits the entire article. What else was left out to fit the agenda??
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=915
Next paragraph in the report:
“However, this dismal news for the administration has done nothing to help the Democrats. Most people seem to wish “a plague on all your houses”. Congress, which of course is controlled by the Democrats, gets its worst ratings ever, only 13 percent positive and fully 83 percent negative. Its previous low point was in December of last year when it was rated 17 percent positive and 79 percent negative. And, Speaker Pelosi’s ratings have fallen to 24 percent positive, 57 percent negative compared to her previous low of 25 percent positive and 61 percent negative in February.”
Jake:
“My reply: What words????? Please site your source.”
Why Jake, you’re getting awfully fussy over a sarcastic aside directed at your comment on June 18, 2008 at 10:10 am.
Ain’t ya at least gonna rebut a major or minor premise?
http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/18/medical-reports-finds-evidence-of-torture-of-detainees-later-found-to-be-innocent/#comment-14876
And ya never did tell us why you’re so eager to have ‘the terrorists’ like you.
Once again Jake,
Your methods & ideals aid and abet the first and foremost enemy of the constitution.
Thus…
I find your lack of fealty greatly disturbing.
http://www.76house.com/history_tavern.html
Bob, Esq.,
Hahaha, too funny there are 2 Jakes. No wonder I had no idea what the hell you were talking about.
I made this comment right after I noticed the 2 Jakes:
1, June 18, 2008 at 10:20 am
FYI: There are 2 “Jake’s” on this. At least we have similar views.
After reading his comment again, I have to say we do not have similar views. He is a little out there.
jake:
I think your polling comments are on point. Most people would vote for Lassie if she were running against an incumbent. But it’s always the party in the White House that takes the hit.
“Hahaha, too funny there are 2 Jakes. No wonder I had no idea what the hell you were talking about.”
Convenient.
Bob, Esq.,
My comment “Hahaha, too funny there are 2 Jakes. No wonder I had no idea what the hell you were talking about.”
Your comment: Convenient.
I made it perfectly clear very early on that there was another Jake posting. Why do you think I kept asking what you were talking about? You were attempting to engage me and I kept reading MY posts to see what you were referring to.
If those were my comments I would defend them, but they are not.
Esq.
Noun 1. Esq – a title of respect for a member of the English gentry ranking just below a knight; placed after the name
Whatever Mr. EGO!
Sincerely,
Sir Jake
STOP THE TORTURE!
Execute them all today!:)
http://patriotfiles.org/AMessageFromTheGeneral.htm
Big Al,
You are not a patriot. Not even close.
By your definition Jill, I am sure I’m not. A person who airs his countries dirty laundry in public and who criticizes our government for torturing these animals that want us dead to get info that may save American lives. You have no idea what a patriot is. A patriot puts his country and it’s citizens FIRST. A concept foreign to you I’m sure. You worship your liberal church more than your country. You oughtta try Europe. A better fit for you I am sure. Try France. Coward central. They don’t have to balls to torture anyone.
Big Al:
“A person who airs his countries dirty laundry in public and who criticizes our government for torturing these animals that want us dead to get info that may save American lives. You have no idea what a patriot is.”
******************
translation: A patriot to Big Al is someone who is a liar, a jingoist,and one who suppresses his reason and morality to save his skin and that of his countrymen. Concentration camps are the necessary result of such warped thinking. Sounds very much like our Teutonic brothers circa 1939. Americans are a different breed whether Big Al knows it or not. Maybe Teddy Roosevelt, a man’s man by anyone’s definition even to these Cretans who think martial valor is the only kind, said it best:
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.” –Theodore Roosevelt
Now tell me Big Al, the man who stormed San Juan Hill,and who presided over a golden age of this Nation just called you and everyone like you a traitor. Who am I to believe? You or a true patriot?
Big Al:
“A better fit for you I am sure. Try France. Coward central. They don’t have to balls to torture anyone.”
**********************
One more item to prove how hopelessly blind to history your thinking has become:
“General’s Confessions Of Torture Stun France
By Barry James
Published: SATURDAY, MAY 5, 2001
PARIS: A retired French Army general’s confession that he and others tortured and murdered victims as a matter of routine during the Algerian civil war is shaking the highest level of state in France, with President Jacques Chirac stating Friday that he was “horrified” by the revelations and disposed to punish the 83-year-old former officer.
Mr. Chirac ordered the removal of General Paul Aussaresses from the Legion of Honor, an award for service or achievement, and said he had asked the defense minister, Alain Richard, to propose possible disciplinary action. A statement from the Elysee Palace said the president was horrified by the disclosures and that nothing could justify such acts.”
That’s simply to disprove your naive theory that only we have psychopaths running our intelligence gathering. You may even note the distinction in consequence between the actions of a civilized, humane Administration and our own. And one final word from history: the French had “the balls” (as you so inelegantly stated) to turn the tide at Yorktown thus winning our independence, and to spread their influence over most of the Western World from the age of Charlemagne until WW1. You’d find little support for your condescending derision of the French fighting spirit among the American Expeditionary Force who fought alongside them during the early spring and summer of 1918 culminating in the decisive Battle of Amiens which signaled the end of Germany’s aggression. Likewise, for the brave resistance fighters in WW2 and Charles de Gaulle’s army in exile.
By why waste facts on those who will not see. Bask in your ignorance of history and current affairs.
French fry, mespo?
Patty C:
That’s “freedom” fry to the uneducated neo-con. Merci beaucoup!
de rien
Patty C:
Je suis en retard pour Law and Order: CI. Bonsoir.
You two quit that foreign jabber. This here’s AMERICA and don’t forget it!
Jill:
Sorry. Patty C and I are like code breakers in WW2. But instead of Navajo we’re using a language those macho Bushies would never think of speaking.
Your goddamn right!
Jill
oops, I mean, “you’re”–but I didn’t make a mistake, I don’t regret what I wrote above. It was the right decision!
Jill:
You obviously don’t “have the balls” to torture someone with that attitude. I suggest a few days at Big Al’s Academy for torture and assertiveness training.
Macho bushies? They’re afraid of everything and everyone that isn’t just like they are. It must be hell living in a constant state of panic and fear.
It’s a hoot seeing the difference between these guys and the lawyers. The difference is eons of evolution.
I can’t express how much pleasure I get from the classy replies of Jill, Mespo, Bob,Esq.
Anyone know why the streets of Paris are lined with trees?
Cuz the German soldiers like to march in the shade.
Big Al:
Jokes don’t match arguments, and you would do well to remember that there is plenty of shade around Bush’s White House too. I hear the Saudi’s like it.
LindyLou:
From me, thank you for reading. It sometimes seems like a battle fought in a vacuum. When I was in England for a summer a dozen years ago, I always enjoyed the banter at the dinner table among the fellows at Cambridge who sat at the head of the hall. It was high honor to be asked to sit with them and purely out of cross-Atlantic comity, I was asked to do so on a very few occasions. They were brilliant advocates who could rip your argument to shreds without so much as a smile. I thought it mean at first, but came to understand that the deadpan, understated replies and uncomplimentary compliments served the purpose of getting me to think critically and free from the veneer that our culture wraps around our minds. As one of the few Americans, I was constantly on the defensive, but I must say they were gracious and treated me as much like a peer as their temperament and senior status would allow. I still hear from one or two today by email. If our little salon reproduces that in any small way, we have done everyone a service. I am guessing Professor Turley may feel this way too. I am not trying to be mean-spirited or haughty in my replies, but I find a slight pinprick to the ego gets the juices running and puts the rational mind into drive.