Michael Phelps may have a bit more to worry about than losing some of us promotional contracts, he could lose his freedom. The 14-time gold medalist was shown smoking marijuana from a pipe. In both real estate and criminal law, the key is always location, location, location. This was not a good location to go for the Acapulco gold. South Carolina prosecutors are looking into charges and in Richland County, Phelps could get as much as 30 days — though jail is rare in such cases.
Richland County Sheriff Leon Lott said he is trying to prove that the picture came from his county and involved pot. This makes some of Phelps public comments problematic for his defense counsel. The incident appears to have occurred during a visit at the University of South Carolina. His sponsors — Speedo and Swiss watchmaker Omega — have already said that they are not troubled by the incident, but might change their minds if he is criminally charged. He has also apologized to the International Olympic Committee.
This falls under the category of “one day on the cover of Time, the next day doing Time.” With the picture, the apology, and back story, prosecutors are likely to jump on the case.
Such cases of incriminating video do occur in the age of YouTube, including the case of billionaire Henry T. Nicholas III . Obviously, you have to prove the content of the pipe, but a denial by Phelps after all of his apologies would seem a bit strange. He also does not want to get into a fight with prosecutors, who might give him a misdemeanor fine and be done with it.
For the full story, click here.
His sponsors get it. The IOC gets it. Most of America gets it. When will the government get it? Prohibition does not work.
Prosecute? Hell, to some people he’s a hero for disobeying a patently unjust and outmoded law – I talked to one today. Consider this is a crime that HAS NO VICTIM and no legitimate purpose but to act as a form of welfare for the prison industry and justification of misaligned law enforcement budgetary inflation by treating a health issue and personal choice as a crime.
How about the government worry about the REAL criminals who HURT PEOPLE? Not bong hits for the willing. The only thing they are likely to hurt is a pizza.
If they charge him it’s just so some limp-dick d.a. can get his name in the paper. How are they going to prove the case without the weed??????
Judging from the picture it’s more proof: Where there’s smoke, there’s … oh, wait. There is no smoke.
This is just stupid. It also shows that, judging by the rapidity of this story’s lack of manufactured “outrage”, society’s attitudes towards a harmless weed has finally turned the corner. His sponsors aren’t particularly troubled. Perhaps because President Obama is guilty of the same dastardly “offense.”
It’s time for America to grow up, get real, and legalize marijuana. Enough of making criminals of the harmless and millionaires of the the criminals.
Then again, such actions could seriously impact the budgets of such illustrious jack-booted organizations like the DEA, among many others. That said, the 23-year-old scofflaw Phelps must be destroyed lest we halt America’s slide towards complete authoritarianism.
I think Seamus hit the nail on the head with this one.
Let’s not pretend that Phelps was making a political statement here, this isn’t ‘bong hits for Jesus’ we’re talking about here. He’s just someone famous caught on camera doing something that literally millions of other Americans already do every weekend. The most dangerous thing about smoking weed is the risk of going to jail.
“Let’s not pretend that Phelps was making a political statement here, this isn’t ‘bong hits for Jesus’ we’re talking about here.”
Thanks for the clarification, MAS. I wasn’t trying to say he was, just that I spoke to someone who saw it that way.
Buddha,
I wish that he had been trying to make a statement, it would make me palmface less. But we should keep in mind that this isn’t the first time that a skilled athlete has been distracted by plant based gold. I point you to the golden apple and the fleet footed Atalanta.
At the top right hand corner of Page 17 of the New York Post of January 24th, 2009, was a short column entitled “Replacing Michelle” in the National Review “The Week” column. Here it is, word for word, as it appeared two days ago……
‘Some employees are simply irreplaceable. Take Michelle Obama: The
University of Chicago Medical center hired her in 2002 to run “programs for community relations, neighborhood outreach, volunteer recruitment, staff diversity and minority contracting.”
In 2005 the hospital raised her salary from $120,000 to $317,000 – nearly
twice what her husband made as a Senator.
Oh did we mention that her husband had just become a US Senator? He sure had. Requested a $1 Million earmark for the UC Medical Center, in fact.
Way to network Michelle!
But now that Mrs Obama has resigned, the hospital says her position will
remain unfilled. How can that be, if the work she did was vital enough to be worth $317,000?
We can think of only one explanation: Senator Roland Burris’s wife wasn’t interested.
—The Editors of National Review, writing in the Magazine’s Feb 9 issue.’
love the heading
Would mature adult citizens in a civilized nation criminalize this act? No.
That the US does speaks volumes about Americans.
Pvt. Keepout,
Those laws were put into effect back… when America… was a bunch of easily… scared… sheep?
Yeah nothing’s changed since then. Touché.
MAS,
Well taken. And lest we forget, the favorite of the Winter Olympics, the Snowboarders. In their case though, you might be able to argue performance enhancement.
Let me see,Madoff stole $50 Billion dollars from his clients,under house arrest in a $7 Million dollar penthouse,and thousands of peoples lives ruined.Well Mr. Phelps if you think you should lose your sponsors,make up your mind “for this tape will self destruct in thirty seconds”
I am humbled in the face of superior intellects. I defer to such great thinkers on all maters. I have now been converted, I am a socialist. The state is all, I am nothing, I live for the state and my brothers, what is mine is theirs. I shall have no thoughts save what the state requires me to think. I am now at peace with all mankind. The state is my father and my mother, I shall be blessed by the will of the people for the collective is all knowing and good.
My desires matter not if they do not align with the greater good of the collective. I will henceforth be We98.
Sincerely,
We98
And now for your viewing pleasure . . . more examples of Project Mayhem coming to life. I bet Chuck Palahnuik didn’t think he was psychic when he wrote “Fight Club”.
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/278448.php
Hey! At least they didn’t run the PETA ad.
Why would a thinking person ever be caught in South Carolina in the first place? Here’s a state that took 38 years to remove a confederate battle flag from atop it’s statehouse, and then only moved it to a monument on the grounds of the capitol.
scumbucket
Obama’s Popularity Slipping
In today’s Rasmussen survey, President Obama’s approval rating is down to 61 percent. It’s now in line with what most Presidents have experienced near the beginning of their terms; slightly lower, actually, that George W. Bush’s approval rating in the Gallup poll 60 days into his first term, notwithstanding the acrimony surrounding the 2000 election.
Obama’s decline was inevitable once he actually started making decisions. His approval rating will probably fall further as more voters learn details about the Democrats’ pork bill, as foreign policy setbacks continue, and as he continues to govern like a traditional Democrat.
There seems to be a myth inside the Beltway that Obama enjoys some sort of super-popularity that makes his policies difficult to challenge. That is simply untrue. Two weeks into his administration, Obama’s approval rating is what one would expect from any newly-elected, generic Democrat. Where it goes from here depends on how the public perceives the administration’s successes and failures. Based on what we’ve seen so far, there will be plenty to criticize.
The list of lobbyists in the Obama administration
Politico provided a list of twelve of these last week, a handy reference with which we can start building our lists of “exceptions” to the Obama Administration Ethics Policy:
Here are former lobbyists Obama has tapped for top jobs:
Eric Holder, attorney general nominee, was registered to lobby until 2004 on behalf of clients including Global Crossing, a bankrupt telecommunications firm [now confirmed].
Tom Vilsack, secretary of agriculture nominee, was registered to lobby as recently as last year on behalf of the National Education Association.
William Lynn, deputy defense secretary nominee, was registered to lobby as recently as last year for defense contractor Raytheon, where he was a top executive.
William Corr, deputy health and human services secretary nominee, was registered to lobby until last year for the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, a non-profit that pushes to limit tobacco use.
David Hayes, deputy interior secretary nominee, was registered to lobby until 2006 for clients, including the regional utility San Diego Gas & Electric.
Mark Patterson, chief of staff to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, was registered to lobby as recently as last year for financial giant Goldman Sachs.
Ron Klain, chief of staff to Vice President Joe Biden, was registered to lobby until 2005 for clients, including the Coalition for Asbestos Resolution, U.S. Airways, Airborne Express and drug-maker ImClone.
Mona Sutphen, deputy White House chief of staff, was registered to lobby for clients, including Angliss International in 2003.
Melody Barnes, domestic policy council director, lobbied in 2003 and 2004 for liberal advocacy groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, the American Constitution Society and the Center for Reproductive Rights.
Cecilia Munoz, White House director of intergovernmental affairs, was a lobbyist as recently as last year for the National Council of La Raza, a Hispanic advocacy group.
Patrick Gaspard, White House political affairs director, was a lobbyist for the Service Employees International Union.
Michael Strautmanis, chief of staff to the president’s assistant for intergovernmental relations, lobbied for the American Association of Justice from 2001 until 2005.
This doesn’t count Tom Daschle, who never registered as a lobbyist but got paid millions for his political connections in pursuit of preferential treatment for his clients in the health-care industry. The AP notes this in today’s look at the Lobbyist Administration:
Sloan and others said embarrassments over Daschle, one of several top Obama appointees with a history of influencing government for clients, should not detract from the president’s first-day vow to sharply limit the role of lobbyists in his administration.
Daschle, a former senator tapped to head Health and Human Services, is not technically a lobbyist. But he was paid more than $5.2 million over the past two years as he advised health insurers and hospitals and worked in other industries such as energy and telecommunications.
Fred Wertheimer of Democracy21 is one of Washington’s best-known advocates of more open and honest government. He called Obama’s executive order “unprecedented and almost revolutionary in nature” and “a direct attack on the culture of Washington and the way business is done here.”
“A few waivers will not undermine it,” he said, provided they are justified and limited.
Limited? It’s been less than two weeks since Obama took office, and he’s appointed a lobbyist a day to a government position. What kind of governing philosophy is that, if not a big “For Sale” sign on the White House, at least according to Obama’s own anti-lobbyist rhetoric on the campaign trail? A lobbyist a day helps keeps accountability away.
Gauging meida by their coverage of this issue, if the AP has started to point it out, even this mildly, others may soon follow.
According to GeostrategyDirect.com, a newsletter published by The Washington Times’ national security reporter Bill Gertz, “Diplomatic sources said Barack Obama has engaged several Arab intermediaries to relay messages to and from al Qaeda in the months before his election as the 44th U.S. president. The sources said al Qaeda has offered what they termed a truce in exchange for a U.S. military withdrawal from Afghanistan. ‘For the last few months, Obama has been receiving and sending feelers to those close to al Qaeda on whether the group would end its terrorist campaign against the United States,’ a diplomatic source said. ‘Obama sees this as helpful to his plans to essentially withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq during his first term in office.’”
Al Qaeda, on the ropes after seven years of dealing with George Bush and Dick Cheney, must think Allah has finally come through for them with the election of Barack Obama.
Obama Picks Porn Lawyer for #2 at Justice
February 3, 2009
CHICAGO – President Obama has made a major mistake and put America’s families at risk by selecting David Ogden to become Deputy Attorney General, says Fidelis, a pro-family organization.
“David Ogden is a hired gun from Playboy and ACLU. He can’t run from his long record of opposing common sense laws protecting families, women, and children. The United States Senate has a responsibility to the American people to insure that Mr. Ogden’s full record is fully reviewed before any vote on his nomination” said Brian Burch, President of Fidelis.
“Ogden’s record is nothing short of obscene. He has represented Playboy Enterprises in multiple cases, Penthouse Magazine, the ACLU, and the largest distributor of hard-core pornography videos. He has opposed filters on library computers protecting children from Internet smut, and successfully defended the right of pornographers to produce material with underage children.”
“David Ogden has collected checks from Playboy and Penthouse to fight any attempts to establish filters on federally-funded public libraries. Ogden even sued the federal government in an attempt to publish Braille versions of Playboy magazine – at taxpayer expense, of course,” said Burch.
As a lawyer in private practice, Ogden has argued for an unlimited abortion license, gays in the military, and has urged courts to treat traditional definitions of marriage as a social prejudice.
“A vast majority of Americans support parental notification before a minor’s abortion and protecting kids from Internet pornography in our libraries,” continued Burch. “Yet David Ogden has fought tooth and nail against these common sense laws protecting our children from harm. At a time when America’s families are under increasing assault, Mr. Ogden is a dangerous choice for a position whose responsibilities include the enforcement of our nation’s laws. “
It’s sad to see an interesting conversation strangled by a shitstorm of spam posted by someone who has no interest in anything other than smearing feces all over things they don’t like.
MAS,
Could it all really be as simple a matter as bad toilet training? Where is Dr. Spock when you need him? Either one!
Found on the internet:
There are two kinds of people in the Electorate:
1. People who remember how horrible the Jimmy Carter years were.
2. People who are about to find out.
To be fair to Carter, though, he got off to a better start.
Maskeptic writes: “He’s just someone famous caught on camera doing something that literally millions of other Americans already do every weekend.”
I guess you mean breaking the law and every weekend millions break laws against illegal drugs, theft, prostitution, running traffic signs, indecent exposure, drunken driving, etc. I suppose we should just make all the above legal since millions of ther American do these things every weekend also.
Maskeptic = True Moron.
MASkeptic,
“The most dangerous thing about smoking weed is the risk of going to jail.”
I have to disagree with you there. The most dangerous thing about smoking weed is getting the munchies. It’s devastating to live with the consequences of scarfing Lorna Doons and Beer Nuts washed down with a can of Hawaiian Punch.
“Lorna Doons and Beer Nuts washed down with a can of Hawaiian Punch.” vs. arrest
Good Lord. That’s a tough call.
hey everyone Mark Levin is on the radio!
Prosecution for drug use based upon a picture seems pretty damn impossible.
Consider ROBINSON v. CALIFORNIA, 370 U.S. 660 (1962)
Narcotics Officer arrests Robinson based upon observing track marks on defendant’s arms. SCOTUS says “addiction is not a crime”
Analytically speaking, SCOTUS acknowledges that Robinson had been injecting himself with illegal drugs; thus he had to possess them, thus he had to procure them.
How about drug tests? A positive test for drugs necessitates injestion; injestion necessitates posession and posession necessitates procurement.
Are people charged as criminals for testing positive for drugs?
No.
But Michael Phelps may get charged in South Carolina based upon some dumb ass photo?
That’s not law; that’s yet another prosecutor looking to ruin someone’s life just for a little face time.
give phelps a break—who hasn’t smoked pot nowadays?! MJ is totally harmless and, actually, very helpful for many people.
i want to punch larry. i am not a violent person but i hate trolls…..
Look, its against the law. I dont think its a big deal either, but if you break the law then you accept the responsibility that comes with that. You cant pick and choose which laws you think are ok to break.
“You cant pick and choose which laws you think are ok to break.”
Chris,
Come on, get with the program. Chant with me. Yes We Can.
HAHA
Article from Human Events by Arthur Robinson
A hidden effect of the November 4 elections and the national events that preceded them during this past year is perhaps best called the “John Galt Effect” in honor of Ayn Rand’s famous character in Atlas Shrugged. It is occurring to a very significant extent.
Our technological civilization stands upon the shoulders of many generations of free Americans and the great accomplishments that they bequeathed to us. Among those Americans and their counterparts in other countries have been a small special group of people whose unusual genius, work ethic, and love for their specialties were especially outstanding. These men, by their examples, their creations, and their leadership of free enterprises, have led our civilization upward. One of the greatest privileges of my life has been to know a few such people.
Without this small group of people, the technological attainments of their generations would not have taken place. We know the names of a few of them, but there were many more — constituting perhaps one person in a thousand. Ayn Rand called these people the “men of the mind.” In Atlas Shrugged, under the leadership of John Galt, they withdrew their services. They would only work in freedom. They would not work under tyranny.
In reality, most men of the mind never withdraw. They love their work too much to stop and — most of them — love their fellow men too much to desert them. The forces of tyranny depend upon this. Without these people, even the small technological advances required by Marxist and Socialist societies would not occur. Yet, while the men of the mind do not fully withdraw, they have families and other loved ones for whom they are responsible and to whom they are more devoted than to the state.
As the pendulum of politics now swings toward tyranny in the United States and dangers to those whom they love increase, these men and women partially turn their talents more toward their personal responsibilities. Part of their thoughts, efforts, and ingenuity are lost to society — and this loss cannot be recovered by either negative or positive incentives.
Throughout our country today, the men of the mind ( women, too) are watching the awful scene in Washington and its reflection in state and local capitals throughout the United States. They understand the consequences of the government oppression that has dogged their own footsteps for many years and that will grow much worse in the near future. So, they are taking actions to protect themselves and their families.
We have no way to measure the societal effects of this distraction of the men of the mind. There are immediate effects upon our well being and long term effects from the things that they are no longer working full time to create.
What is the cost of the distraction of our real leaders — of the men of the mind — of the John Galts among us? I estimate that it is greater than the trillions of dollars being lost on government printing presses. Call this Y2009K — and this time it is very real.
Our existing power plants are still operating; our petrochemical plants are still producing; our military defense is still performing; our food supplies are still flowing; and the rest of the technological infrastructure upon which our lives depend is largely still in place. But the key people — not those we see but those we do not see because they are constantly engaged in real work — are seriously distracted and now partially engaged in personal survival.
Of one thing we can be certain. When the essentials of our civilization begin to seriously falter and this causes real harm, those who would be our masters and their fellow travelers in the media, academia, business, and politics will cast blame upon some of these men of the mind — and drag them before us for punishment. Our John Galts know this, too, and it is a further distraction for them.
Some of these people are leading great enterprises. Others are in the basements of our power plants and other heavy industries. Some are closeted away in universities quietly at work on the next generations of possible advances in science and engineering. They are easily recognized — by their genius and by the love of their work that permeates their whole beings.
One way to recognize them is that they constantly talk about their work to anyone who will listen.
Now they are distracted.
What are they talking about today?
the blah blah blah of fascism never changes
To the trolls commenting:
Every comment you make proves that you lack the ability to think properly as shown by commenting on a topic. I’m so sad for you it must be so hard for you to maintain jobs, or even relationships. There is psychiatric/psychological help available for you and I hope for your sakes you avail yourself of it.
In the alternative though, you are gainfully employed doing this nonsense and it is a comment on Prof. Turley’s rising fame and effectiveness, that your employers are paying you to try to disrupt his informative site.
Either way you make me laugh at your ineptness, although scrolling past your nonsense is a little extra work, the comments and discussions by really intelligent people makes the minor effort worthwhile.
To all the other commenter’s with brains, or ethics:
Me too. Leave Phelps alone. end the “War on Drugs” and legalize/control prostitution, just as they do in most grown up countries.
MikeS:
you would not think I am crazy if I could tell you how much “they” are paying me to do this. You and Buddha might even do it for this kind of money. That was very insiteful so I had to answer. Please dont tell “them” I will lose my job.
Thank you,
Bron/Parsnips,
“They” aren’t getting their money’s worth. Can’t you ever come up with anything new?
“you would not think I am crazy if I could tell you how much “they” are paying me to do this.”
********************
“At a dinner party one night, a drunken Churchill asked an attractive woman whether she would sleep with him for a million pounds. “Maybe,” the woman said coyly. “Would you sleep with me for one pound?” Churchill then asked. “Of course not, what kind of woman do you think I am?” the woman responded indignantly. “Madam, we’ve already established what kind of woman you are,” said Churchill, “now we’re just negotiating the price.”
I had forgotten that Churchill story. What a gem!
Mespo:
I like the one as follows:
Woman says to Churchill if you were my husband I would give you poison and Churchill says if you were my wife I would drink it.
Well I least I get paid to post irratating/irrational comments. If you are going to be a whore for someone you might as well be paid for it.
oh and one other thing at least when I post something that is not my original thought at least I acknoledge where it came from. Not saying that you do that but some of the “original” thinking on this site is anything but.
bron98:
“If you are going to be a whore….” I appreciate the honesty. Very refreshing.
So nanny nanny boo boo?
“If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants.” Sir Isaac Newton, letter to Robert Hooke, February 5, 1675.
Oh come on, you guys – ‘Rumplestilskin’ doesn’t get paid for tantrums.
His plan from the start was to launch a ‘debate’ site with selected ‘turlees’ as ‘judges’.
Instead, he keeps managing to get himself booed off the blog over his infuriating nitpicking, which he, alone, characterizes as ‘debate’, only to return a few weeks later under a new alias.
It would be sad, if it wasn’t so funny.
PattyC:
I am not Parsnips, nor Rumplestilskin, or Bartlebe, I am simply me.
I have used a couple of other names such as We98 and WeeWenYu98 but I figured even you all would figure that out.
Basically this site is one sided except for FFLEO and he is just your pet Troll. It is actually getting pretty boring the analysis is all the same, from the left and as much as I hate to say it if it wasnt for Buddha and MikeS (and MikeA once in awhile), this would be a dead zone or a bozone.
Pet troll, eh? snicker. I’ll let the man himself set you straight on that one, but I suspect you just stepped in another pile you’ll be unable to extract yourself from. Again an exercise in poor target selection.
An analysis of your “style”, such as it is, tends to support Patty’s theory as to your identity. Methinks thou doth protest too much. And too poorly.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/toles_main.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
It’s funny.
Like Kos said, anyone who has a problem with what Phelps did here is a complete fuc#ing moron
Von Bron Troll
Your development is stagnating here.
Cultivate your hemorrhoidal magic where it’s appreciated.
BronNineAte,
Debating and endeavoring to consider all of the contrary evidence is the way I conducted my collateral careers. Any professional scientist, critical thinker, logician, or anyone else who treasures unbiased reasoning, and who has a sense of humor and wit, would enjoy this blawg. This forum is especially interesting because several attorneys take time to deliberate legal issues. A good lawyer is similar to a competent scientist in that both professionals give as much weight to their adversaries’ arguments as to their own. That way they learn the weaknesses of their own—perhaps biased and flawed—arguments, amend the logic, remove the logical fallacies, and then use that knowledge to bolster their positions to garner a favorable ruling or resolve a scientific incongruity.
People such as you ruin the continuity of thought and add nothing but illogical noise to every thread. Even before I read your comment about me, I thought of a caricature of you as an intellectually underdeveloped streaker running around the lecterns during a learned debate. There would be no laughter from the deliberators, only disgust and contempt for your disruptive display of low self-esteem and mental inadequacies.
Relevant, logical refutations are always welcome; illogical, irrelevant nonsense is most unwelcome.
FFLeo:
Right you are. Bron98 et als are why children are never to be invited to attend adult dinner parties. After the precociousness wears off, you have nothing left but irritating, mindless chatter interrupting intelligent conversation along with interminable breaks while the adults take time to correct the kids’ antics. Folks like Bron98 have their place, but I would limit them to interacting on X-box 360’s or some other mindless contraption.
Is crime non-existent in Richland County? Are there no cold cases Sheriff Lott could look into? I only ask because the amount of money and resources that the county would have to lay out to prove their case seems to pretty high.
7:
Is crime non-existent in Richland County?
********
No, but high profile crime is!
I think Mr. Phelps should receive a misdemeanor fine (as Professor Turley stated as a possible punishment) and community service at a municipal pool in a disadvantaged community. I live near the Mexico/U.S. border, drug-related murders are increasing in Mexico (abundant beheadings, torture before death), and the violence and murders are spilling over into the U.S.
By using illegal drugs, U.S. citizens are perpetuating the impetus for these crimes. Mr. Phelps has the opportunity to become an exceptional hero for our youth—sorely needed nowadays—and heroes should be as upstanding as possible; not perfect, although not affected by illegal drugs. Mr. Phelps possibly recognized this by his admission of guilt and sincere apology. A small misdemeanor fine and community service—for the public record and as a deterrent—are both appropriate.
FFLeo,
Perhaps the best answer is to let people obtain the drugs through more reputable sources. I’m sure we’re all aware enough of history to have learned our lessons from Prohibition.
FFLEO,
It is axiomatic that the temptation of the organized criminal element to dominate an illegal enterprise is the same as in any business: profit. You want the bad players removed? Remove the excess profit motive. A profit inflated by illegality as illegality is a direct impact to supply. You remove the motive, the criminals will move on to find something else to behead people for. Is that not the lesson of Prohibition? Alcohol became legal and the same criminal element responsible for bootlegging moved in to drugs (and other rackets) for the profit. It is well established that this was met with resistance, especially in the Sicilian families, for reasons which seem almost like ethics. It was only after it became apparent that huge profits were to be made that they finally moved to selling not just the innocuous marijuana, but the more socially damaging and physiologically addicting drugs like heroin and cocaine. Marijuana has no physically addictive properties. It can be psychologically addictive, but so can football. In fact, for many years before it was criminalized it was widely used as medicine and continues to be used so today. Lumping it in with substances like heroin or cocaine is disingenuous and inaccurate – especially considering industries role in keeping it illegal. DuPont can’t sell nylon if you can make rope out of hemp and it was DuPont pushing the criminalization in the first place. Depriving people of medicine, as well as a chemical recreation that results in less violence than alcohol (on a per capita basis), jailing thousands and thousands for a victimless crime all to make profit is simply wrong minded especially in light of what Prohibition showed is a futile effort. A certain percentage of people just want to get “high” even if it means spinning around in the yard until they pass out. And if you make spinning illegal, someone will set up “Spin Dens”. It’s human nature.
Coca plants won’t grow here. If you grew enough opium poppies to run production, it’d be pretty easy to spot. Both of these drugs bases deserve far more attention, attention that is currently misdirected to a far less harmless drug, a drug that is demonstrably less damaging and more social than alcohol. I’ve never been punched by a stoner. Ever. I’ve had drunks break pool cues over my back though. And let’s be adults: booze and smokes ARE drugs and probably worse if not as “bad” as marijuana physically. Socially there is no comparison: pot’s the better drug. Yes, driving under the influence of ANY drug, including many prescription drugs, should be kept illegal. It’s a common sense safety issue. And yes, drug enforcement overall is an important issue not just legally but sociologically as well. But if you’re swinging at the wrong ball, you’ll never hit one out of the park.
Make marijuana legal and tax it just like smokes and beer. Tax the Hell out of it. People would pay $25 bucks a pack for joints that costs even less than tobacco to manufacture and $22 per pack could be tax revenue. Even the tobacco companies get by on that. Why do you think every single one of them has packaging and advertising designed and sitting in a cabinet waiting for legalization/decriminalization? The plants are weeds, they will grow in places you can’t grow much anything else and they grow faster than tobacco plants. They’ll make a fortune. A fortune which in turn can be taxed, something that can’t be said of criminal gains.
Make importing either cocaine or opiates a capitol offense or punishable by life w/o chance of parole. Make penalties for distribution domestically nearly as harsh. Being an addict though is not a criminal issue, it’s a health issue and should be treated as such. If we were to adopt this model, we’ll increase our tax base while offsetting the losses to “the prison industry” (revolting concept) and ensure the right criminals are removed from play so they CAN’T move on to the “next big thing”. At the same time we remove the stigma of what is an increasingly acceptable drug. A drug our sitting President admits to having used. And despite what anyone reading this thinks, I promise you know a pot smoker and probably several. ALL OF YOU. And it’s not the obvious stoner wastoids I’m talking about either. Odds are that they are just as productive and peaceful a citizen as the next guy sitting at the bar next to you and maybe more so. They are people you probably like, trust and respect. You just don’t know they smoke pot. Part of this acceptance comes from experience. People who have smoked pot and tried other substances KNOW the government is lying about the “danger” of marijuana. Honestly, if it were legal, I’d never smoke a cigarette again.
I suspect we’ll disagree on this.
“far less harmful”
And that, THAT is the last time I type something that long on the Crackberry. I can’t feel my thumbs.
Between 1999 and 2003 I created and ran a housing program in NYC for people with dual diagnosis. This meant that they had been diagnosed with a major psychological disorder (AXIS I in DSM) and with drug addictions of various types. Typically, I took people into my program directly from month long stays in psychiatric wards. Although by 1999 I had been in social services for 32 years I found that this experience destroyed some of my understanding of addiction and was also humbling to an old pro who thought he knew it all.
Contrary to most people’s beliefs addiction in all its’ forms is a major mental illness. We need to be clear though that addiction is very different from recreational use. This is what often gets overlooked in the discussion. Someone with an addictive personality can and does get addicted to almost everything, including as we now know to binge eating and/or purging. It has little to do with lack of will and much to do with serious mental disturbance. Sadly, with the best candidates, in the best circumstances, perhaps a third are able to throw off its effect. The rest are caught in a vicious cycle that has them being clean at times, but without lasting sobriety.
Given this in my opinion the entire War on Drugs concept, in tandem with idea’s like “just say no” are farces perpetrated on the American public, by phony politico’s, some of whom get money and support from large scale dealers. Others use the “War On Drugs” as a campaign theme, because it sells. Decriminalization in some form is the way to go, providing it is backed up by sponsorship of programs that can help those with a will to quit.
Addicts should be treated like those with disabilities, because in truth they are.
Now as far as marijuana goes, contrary to popular wisdom it is far more benign in its’ effects than alcohol and cigarettes. There are also proven physical benefits to it. While it is true that the addictive personality can be addicted to anything, think glue sniffers for instance, marijuana addiction is almost non-existent.
As a child of the 60’s my drug experimentation was wide ranged and at times prolific. I was never addicted to any legal, or illegal drug save one. Since the age of 17 until my retirement, I had only once been out of work for two months at age 59. For many years I also practiced psychotherapy as a second job and had earned Masters and post Master degrees. That was with smoking grass every day between the ages of 17 and 37. With the arrival of my first child I stopped smoking pot because my responsibility as a parent came first and I didn’t want it affecting my parenting.
Nevertheless, since the age of 14 until the age of 61 I was an addict to a perfectly legal drug, cigarettes. While there were two points during this time when I gave up cigarettes for 3 years at a time resuming my addiction was as easy as taking my first puff, an addict by definition. Interestingly, while I gave up smoking pot and using other drugs at 37, I also had my first heart attack at that age. I continued to smoke through two other attacks and only gave it up when I developed congestive heart failure. That is what addiction is about and there was my craziness. I was a 2 pack per day smoker.
This is the point of all my self confession. We are allowing the most addictive and probably lethal drugs to be sold over the counter. Alcohol addiction too is just as bad physically and socially as heroin addiction, we’ve got a lot less Heroin addicts and yet it remains legal because we have found Prohibition to be a failure. It is high time to take the example of our discovery in the early 20th century and bring it up to date. I believe that we will actually save lives in the process and reduce the rates of addiction.
Buddha,
We do not disagree to the extent you think. Sans addiction, explain to me why pot smoke in someone’s lungs is not harmful and why you are not concerned about the deleterious effects of the absorbed chemicals that course through the blood of a pot smoker’s body.
Hey, do not worry about typos, especially within a long post. We all know you are a good writer.
FFLEO:
I stand by what I said, there are no truly opposing views on this website. All the arguments that I have seen come from the left side of the spectrum. While I do admit it has certainly given me things to think about and following Buddhas, MikeS and MikeA when they leave a URL has been interesting, the majority of the thought is from the left. There are no right wingers in here and I must say too bad for them and actually too bad for this web site.
You think we are all low brow bottom dwelling scumbag, nazi baby killers. I see all manor of right wing thought dismissed because the perception is that it is from the right and we are all just shy of Neanderthal on the evolutionary scale, maybe equal to austrolopithicus. MikeS thinks that Ayn Rands’ ideas are from out in the shit house and MikeA is lecturing me about Just War theory but probably not reading a link I posted on just that topic from a different point of view.
All I hear is waterboarding is torture and to oppose that proposition means I am a NAZI. Even though a friend is a Marine Lt. Col and has been waterboarded as part of his training, he said while inducing panic it was, in his view, not torture. I would have been shot by someone on this web site had they been in front of me at the time. And talk about illegal wars, the military actually calls the war against Yugoslavia the War of the Blue Dress. The idea of sending young men to die for a seeman stained dress is morally bankrupt at least Bush had 9/11. I bet some on this web site actually think it was manufactured by Bush/Chaney for some grand geopolitical ploy.
So please dont lecture me on opposing points of view, I have probably spent more time than most people on this web site looking at your opposing points of view. the only thing I agree with is legalizing drugs and its your body do what you want with it but I thought that way before I arrived here.
Quite frankly I havent read one thing that would change my mind on anything. This site is nothing more than Buddhas personal forum from the left. JT ought to change the name to Buddhas Lively Banter
FFLEO:
and then you have Buddha calling for the extermination of all people on the right (of opposing views), that’s egalitarian? And JT amking similar comments about Rudy G. and Marie A. and MikeS saying the right eats babies or some such thing. And you think I would entertain this as something to think about. Its entertaining and once in awhile a gold nugget emerges from the horses rectum so it is not a total waste of time.
FFLEO,
I’m not arguing there are NO deleterious effects. Smoking is a bad habit period. But it does have less carcinogens than tobacco ESPECIALLY after the tobacco companies get done with their “enhancement”. I’m pretty sure you won’t find a lot of pot adulterated like cigarettes. The end users wouldn’t tolerate it and many who smoke pot don’t smoke cigarettes – they are different smoking sensations.
For example, the American Tobacco Company, Brown and Williamson, Liggett Group, Inc., Philip Morris Inc. and R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company ALL admit to adding the following substances to tobacco to “enhance flavor and burning” . . . and also to make them taste like ass if you put one out and try to relight it so you buy more. That’s why I smoke naturals when I smoke (which is rarely). I often smoke half a cigarette and I’m too Scottish to be wasteful. Here’s the list:
* Acetanisole
* Acetic Acid
* Acetoin
* Acetophenone
* 6-Acetoxydihydrotheaspirane
* 2-Acetyl-3- Ethylpyrazine
* 2-Acetyl-5-Methylfuran
* Acetylpyrazine
* 2-Acetylpyridine
* 3-Acetylpyridine
* 2-Acetylthiazole
* Aconitic Acid
* dl-Alanine
* Alfalfa Extract
* Allspice Extract,Oleoresin, and Oil
* Allyl Hexanoate
* Allyl Ionone
* Almond Bitter Oil
* Ambergris Tincture
* Ammonia
* Ammonium Bicarbonate
* Ammonium Hydroxide
* Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic
* Ammonium Sulfide
* Amyl Alcohol
* Amyl Butyrate
* Amyl Formate
* Amyl Octanoate
* alpha-Amylcinnamaldehyde
* Amyris Oil
* trans-Anethole
* Angelica Root Extract, Oil and Seed Oil
* Anise
* Anise Star, Extract and Oils
* Anisyl Acetate
* Anisyl Alcohol
* Anisyl Formate
* Anisyl Phenylacetate
* Apple Juice Concentrate, Extract, and Skins
* Apricot Extract and Juice Concentrate
* 1-Arginine
* Asafetida Fluid Extract And Oil
* Ascorbic Acid
* 1-Asparagine Monohydrate
* 1-Aspartic Acid
* Balsam Peru and Oil
* Basil Oil
* Bay Leaf, Oil and Sweet Oil
* Beeswax White
* Beet Juice Concentrate
* Benzaldehyde
* Benzaldehyde Glyceryl Acetal
* Benzoic Acid, Benzoin
* Benzoin Resin
* Benzophenone
* Benzyl Alcohol
* Benzyl Benzoate
* Benzyl Butyrate
* Benzyl Cinnamate
* Benzyl Propionate
* Benzyl Salicylate
* Bergamot Oil
* Bisabolene
* Black Currant Buds Absolute
* Borneol
* Bornyl Acetate
* Buchu Leaf Oil
* 1,3-Butanediol
* 2,3-Butanedione
* 1-Butanol
* 2-Butanone
* 4(2-Butenylidene)-3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-Cyclohexen-1-One
* Butter, Butter Esters, and Butter Oil
* Butyl Acetate
* Butyl Butyrate
* Butyl Butyryl Lactate
* Butyl Isovalerate
* Butyl Phenylacetate
* Butyl Undecylenate
* 3-Butylidenephthalide
* Butyric Acid]
* Cadinene
* Caffeine
* Calcium Carbonate
* Camphene
* Cananga Oil
* Capsicum Oleoresin
* Caramel Color
* Caraway Oil
* Carbon Dioxide
* Cardamom Oleoresin, Extract, Seed Oil, and Powder
* Carob Bean and Extract
* beta-Carotene
* Carrot Oil
* Carvacrol
* 4-Carvomenthenol
* 1-Carvone
* beta-Caryophyllene
* beta-Caryophyllene Oxide
* Cascarilla Oil and Bark Extract
* Cassia Bark Oil
* Cassie Absolute and Oil
* Castoreum Extract, Tincture and Absolute
* Cedar Leaf Oil
* Cedarwood Oil Terpenes and Virginiana
* Cedrol
* Celery Seed Extract, Solid, Oil, And Oleoresin
* Cellulose Fiber
* Chamomile Flower Oil And Extract
* Chicory Extract
* Chocolate
* Cinnamaldehyde
* Cinnamic Acid
* Cinnamon Leaf Oil, Bark Oil, and Extract
* Cinnamyl Acetate
* Cinnamyl Alcohol
* Cinnamyl Cinnamate
* Cinnamyl Isovalerate
* Cinnamyl Propionate
* Citral
* Citric Acid
* Citronella Oil
* dl-Citronellol
* Citronellyl Butyrate
* itronellyl Isobutyrate
* Civet Absolute
* Clary Oil
* Clover Tops, Red Solid Extract
* Cocoa
* Cocoa Shells, Extract, Distillate And Powder
* Coconut Oil
* Coffee
* Cognac White and Green Oil
* Copaiba Oil
* Coriander Extract and Oil
* Corn Oil
* Corn Silk
* Costus Root Oil
* Cubeb Oil
* Cuminaldehyde
* para-Cymene
* 1-Cysteine
Of these, many are ciliotoxic (harmful to bacteria – like Hydrogen Cyanide), carcinogenic (like Hydrazine), both (like Formaldehyde) or are co-carcinogenic promoters (like almost all of the Benzine compounds). And the stuff that’s not toxic per se? I’m pretty sure nature would have included those in tobacco if they were meant to be there.
Another more practical reduction of risk is quite simply most could not smoke nearly the same quantity of marijuana as tobacco. Not and be able to get off the couch, speak without laughing uncontrollably, or be able to stay awake very long (but I’m getting to that). In addition, you generally do not have to smoke as much to get the narcotic effect. Both tobacco and marijuana carry narcotic compounds, namely nicotine and THC.
Let’s talk toxicity. Toxicity is often talked about in terms of lethal doses to half the test population, annotated LDsub50, the median lethal dose. Don’t forget nicotine is a stimulant. It can kill you with as little as 40–60 mg (0.5-1.0 mg/kg). While it’s impossible to give yourself nicotine poisoning by smoking alone, if you were dumb enough to chew gum, wear patches and puff away? You could do it. I’ll use rats as models as THC testing on humans has generally been forbidden. These numbers come from oral ingestion. In rats, the lethal dose of nicotine is 50 mg/kg, much like in humans. The LDsub50 is the same for both sexes. In rats, the lethal dose of THC, marijuanas active ingredient (a mild analgesic and euphoric of unidentified mechanism) is 1,270 mg/kg in males and 730 mg/kg in females. That’s 25-26 times LESS toxic than nicotine in males and 14-15 times less toxic in females (difference due to body mass). If you extrapolate these numbers out to human scale, you’d have to smoke 1500 pounds of pot in 15 minutes to reach median toxicity. I’ve met some heavy smokers, but that’s just not happening. Combined with effective dosage information, THC has a 1000:1 safety ratio or in other words the lethal does is 1000 times the effective dose. Compare this to alcohol (10:1), cocaine (15:1) and heroin (6:1).
This means as far as toxicity goes, marijuana is 100 times safer than booze, 67 times safer than cocaine and 167 times safer than heroin. Yet I can go buy a pack of Pall Mall unfiltered and a gallon of Ripple and not have to travel two blocks.
No, smoking pot IS bad for you. Smoking ANYTHING is bad for you. I won’t argue that and that’s why I say children should be kept from ALL drugs. But health-wise? Marijuana is safer and probably better for you than the “socially acceptable” drugs of alcohol and tobacco.
Bron98,
Any cogent rebuttals are welcome.
Hey Bron? Go play with yourself elsewhere. And yes, I do think you’re a cancer. So move along, troll bait.
Did I mention that hydrazine is a component of rocket fuel?
And NORML?
You guys owe me a check for that.
Buddha,
Thank you for your effort. Mr. Phelps is an exceptional athlete. I prefer not watching him interfere with his talent and raise questions about if he is using undetectable performance-enhancing drugs in future swimming events.
FFLEO,
Agreed. He’s a exceptional athlete and seems like a good kid (I blame his mom
). That this could cast doubt to his future performance is indeed that saddest part of this situation. I hope he does decide to compete in 2012.
{Quote: “Michael Phelps was suspended from competition for three months by USA Swimming, the latest fallout from a photo that showed the Olympic great inhaling from a marijuana pipe.
The sport’s national governing body also cut off its financial support to Phelps for the same three-month period, effective Thursday.
“This is not a situation where any anti-doping rule was violated, but we decided to send a strong message to Michael because he disappointed so many people, particularly the hundreds of thousands of USA Swimming member kids who look up to him as a role model and a hero,” the Colorado-based federation said in a statement.
“Michael has voluntarily accepted this reprimand and has committed to earn back our trust.” End Quote}
sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-phelpssuspended&prov=ap&type=lgns
The right doesn’t eat babies, I’ve never said that. However, the followers of Ayn Rand do. John Galt by the way was a terrorist psychopath whose chief interest was in gaining power and wealth. His chief disciple, Ragnar Daneskjold was a pirate and killer. Besides that Rand was a writer of turgid fiction, wooden dialogue and unbelievable sex scenes better suited for the modern day romance genre, rather that serious economic thought. It was literature aimed at sex-starved but dimly bright teenage boys, who she slept with to close the deal. Then too she ranked Aristotle’s equation that A = A as profound philosophical commentary. Yawn.
MikeS:
My apologies I found the quote and you are correct you did not say the right eats babies.
“As far as Rudy’s wanting the rich to literally eat the poor in Manhattan, that’s already been done figuratively. However, in Rudy’s case I think it might be the blood, rather than the flesh he is after”
There is a whole school of philosophy that is growing around her ideas. I know you are an old timer and would not be aware of that. but a place for you to start would be a Dr. Tara Smith and her book Normative Ethics.
I believe they call Atlas Shrugged “Romantic Fiction”. But understandably you would not be interested having had a diet of Vonnegut and Kerouac, both of whom are intellectual giants.
Buddha:
where did you ste.. er gather that information from?.
I can just picture you, a little guy 5-6″ maybe 5-9″ in your platform shoes. Probably were a little putz when you were young so people did not relate well to you and you were angry over the slights or maybe you grew up poor and the rich kids didnt want to hang out with you.
So you sit at your computer racing around the internet finding all of this information and then rearange it and put it out there as your own so people will think you are some intellectual god. sheeit Buddha have you ever had an original thought?
FFLEO:
what part of what I said dont you understand? Quit being an apologist for the left, this site is a cesspool of intellectual thought. They all wonder why I sound like I do, well I am just returning the bs.
Bron,
I’m not doing your homework or showing you proofs. It’s established one of us has research skills and the other hasn’t. BTW, you continually addressing me directly? It only shows me how throughly beaten and discredited you are. You keep barking and wetting yourself at my feet like a puppy who hasn’t learned who the bigger dogs are despite getting stomped repeatedly by alphas. Including traditional conservative alphas. Why would I care about a critique of either my person or reason from someone like YOU? You have lots of opinion, most of which backed by little, none or poor reasoning and/or no or a significantly distorted factual basis. Your lack of research on most topics is self-evident. As with any OPINION, the source must be considered. Right now, my cat’s opinions rank far higher than yours or any member of the Bush administration. And speaking of poor reasoning and research, learn the definition of “apologist”. Neither the left nor traditional conservatives need to apologize for war crimes and treason. That seems to be YOUR job, Neocon. I’ve already stated I consider you and those like you a cancer on society. Not just American society either, but all of humanity.
Enjoy being a blight. The rest of us are working just as fast as we can to remove you and your Neocon type from political process and marginalizing you as a group by exposing your true nature – the second being a task which you are TOTALLY helping us with by being perpetually discredited and exposed as an evil lying myopic distortionist propaganda troll.
Thanks for helping us, your enemy, the people of reason and conscience from both the Left and the Right.
“There is a whole school of philosophy that is growing around her ideas.”
I already stated that I read ALL of Ayn Rand’s books when I was a teen. Her concepts are unworkable and childish. Their ultimate end would be in a thug society run by the people with the best weapons.
Rand knew nothing of human nature, was psychologically warped and a sexual predator to boot. Anyone foolish enough to try to build a philosophy around Rand’s ideas is delusional, whether or not they have a Phd. Her childhood of privilege in Russia was interrupted by their revolution and she spent the rest of her life viewing the world through that perspective. Her only saving grace was a movie based on her book “The fountainhead” and that was mainly because Gary Cooper, Patricia Neal and Raymond Massey were great actors. The plot for both movie and book is fantastical and ludicrous.
However, I’m only responding to you because I had you pegged from your first post as an Objectivist wannabee and you spent many more posts lying about a fact so obvious from your writing. You are trying to adapt now to a more reasonable personna, but you have spread enough invective and ignorance around here to have shown there is nothing to be gained by us continually exposing your ignorance. There is not even any slapdown satisfaction to be gained because refuting you is like the proverbial “shooting ducks in a barrel.”
finally, the only real umbrage I take with you is your ongoing repetition of the false faux conservative meme that people who believe in human rights, the constitution and intellectual freedom are un-American elitists. The truth is that you represent those who do not believe in the tenets of our country and who like Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld are the ultimate anti-Americans. That you alluded to being paid to do this, even if in weak sarcasm, is an admission to lacking integrity and ethics. That of course would make you a mainstream faux conservative.
Mike S.
I have to agree with your analysis of Rand. Were she published today, her imprint would be “Harlequin”. Most likely, she’d have had to self-publish.
Bron98:
“there are no truly opposing views on this website. All the arguments that I have seen come from the left side of the spectrum.”
Hasty generalization; seeing I tend to be as conservative as a duck’s ass in a windstorm on many issues–mainly those relating to adhering to the principles of constitutional structure. You know, separation of powers, Article IV’s guarantee of a republican form of government — all those good things that the last administration pissed on.
“There are no right wingers in here and I must say too bad for them and actually too bad for this web site. You think we are all low brow bottom dwelling scumbag, nazi…”
If by “Nazi” you mean “Authoritarian”, allow me to clarify by stating that the Republican Party has been co-opted by Authoritarians who thence ran the government like certain authoritarians of the past; e.g. Nazis.
See generally “Understanding the Contemporary Republican Party: Authoritarians Have Taken Control Part One in a Three-Part Series”
By JOHN W. DEAN
Wednesday, Sep. 05, 2007
http://writ.lp.findlaw.com/dean/20070905.html
oh, snap! lol
Bob,Esq.
Sincerest thanks for the John Dean link:
Understanding the Contemporary Republican Party:
Authoritarians Have Taken Control.
Altemeyer’s findings, explaining that his empirical testing revealed “that authoritarians are frequently enemies of freedom, antidemocratic, anti-equality, highly prejudiced, mean-spirited, power hungry, Machiavellian, and amoral.”
Yikes, Professor Altemeyer doesn’t come out and say it, nor does John Dean, but these people have little conscience. Their heads are disconnected from their hearts.
Whoops, John Deans book is called Conservatives without Conscience. I got caught up chasing Professor Altemeyer articles.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/10/phelps-bong-owner-tried-t_n_165635.html
And Leon Lott gives it up!
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/29224926/
Congratulations! I could hear the audible pop when you pulled you head out from here, Sheriff.
hopefully card check wont come back thatd be a soft tyranny