Two British High Court judges have released a very disturbing decision that finds that ormer detainee Binyam Mohamed was offered his freedom by the United States in exchange for his promise not to reveal his own torture at Guantanamo Bay. Equally disturbing is the statement from the English government that it cannot release proof of the torture because of objections from the United States government. If the Obama Administration is continuing this position, it is not only blocking prosecution of war crimes but the release of evidence of such war crimes to other nations. I discussed this and other developments on this segment of Rachel Maddow’s show.
Mohamed is an Ethiopian who moved to Britain as a teenager and was arrested in Pakistan in 2002. He claims he was tortured Pakistan and in Morocco. He was then transferred to the United States, which also tortured him.
All charges against him were dropped last year. He refused our Faustian bargain.
Lord Justice John Thomas and Mr. Justice David Lloyd Jones said that there was evidence to show Mohamed was tortured, but that the documents could not be made public because of the objections by the United States. Presumably, if the Obama Administration lifted such objections publicly, the British government would not have a basis to withhold the material.
My inner whore felt okay to participate:
https://secure.ga3.org/03/LFV_contribute/n_1rITpKaBYKQ?source=mar09_eoq1a
This is a petition requesting your endorsement, Democats and Rethuglicans alike:
http://www.democrats.com/special-prosecutor-for-bush-war-crimes
Mike Spindell, thanks for posting the White House phone #, for me it was worth the wait.
Here’s what happened, in part to Binyam Mohamed: (from The Guardian, below) This information was sent to Obama at least twice 1. by human rights groups and 2. in a redacted letter via the DOD.
This conduct cannot be acceptable to any person.
“A graphic account by former Guantanamo Bay detainee Binyam Mohamed of his alleged torture during interrogation sessions has been passed to the high court.
The account details how he was beaten with a leather strap, held down and punched by masked men, cut with a scalpel on his chest and penis, and subjected to psychological torture by being forced to listen to loud music, including Meat Loaf. It is among documents, including testimony from the US, presented to high court judges by the Guardian and other media organisations challenging the UK and US governments’ refusal to disclose evidence of his ill-treatment.”
This is not how to win friends and influence countries who are your strongest allies. There will be serious blow back from this, including pressure on the Canadian Government to immediately withdraw all armed forces from Afganistan.
You can see these despicable comments here:
Gerry,
On the other hand, a little “tough love” from our allies may be the only thing that can get the prosecution ball rolling absent revolution. Think alcoholics and intervention. Sad, but a possibility.
To my fellows on this blog. I posted this exact information about the administration and Binyam Mohamed since early Feb. Each time I received quite a bit of excoriation for questioning what is going on with Obama. This has been both scary and disturbing to me.
By now there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that Obama is doing many things he should not be doing. I won’t speculate on his motives but I do know his actions are wrong. (For example he plans to higher more contrators for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan–story today on Common Dreams.)
What concerns me, is when Bush did these things I could count on people here to react with outrage. Now, these same revelations are often met with silence. That isn’t uniformly true, but too many people who never would have let Bush get away with these things, are letting Obama get away with it. I think of many of you as such good, decent, kind hearted and intelligent people. Yet you aren’t saying anything. All that is needed for bad to flourish is for good people to shut up. Please don’t shut up because this is Obama. That’s all I’m asking people here to think about.
Parallel to the shore!!!
Obviously, you STILL haven’t listened to the Walsh briefing.
Now, a full month old…
http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=284246-1
Many of us remain very much interested in a special prosecutor
-in spite of you not because of you.
Buddha:
you ok? You seem a little down. Not the usual vim and vigor.
Would an outrageous right wing comment help get the blood flowing? Let me know and I will think of a good one.
I was listening with interest to your interview on the Rachel Maddow Show and thought of googling for your name to see if you had a website or blog. I always look forward to your commentary and opinion on both Rachel’s show as well as Countdown with Keith Olberman. In today’s interview with Rachel everything you outlined made so much sense. I was wondering if you ever have the opportunity to share your expertise with President Obama. I think he and the White House need to hear more about what you outlined today on Rachel’s show.
Hi Everyone:
I just watched Professor Turley with Rachel tonight he is always great but tonight he was outstanding!
Here is to hoping Obama and Holder get the message; and start to take some action.
A toast to JT and to All of You for all your continued Good Work!
Thank-you for being here and keeping it real!
This torture issue will not die and the left will not let it be forgotten. Obama will have to deal with this now or he will suffer the fate. Jill, you do not have to worry about the regulars on this site. The truth will come out. Prof. Turley’s interview and future interviews will insure the word will continue to haunt the new administration until they are shamed into doing the right thing.
Bron,
I think the technical term is “in a funk”. Or maybe the term is “frustrated”. If you add vodka and George Clinton to that you get “frustrafunkadelic”. Thanks for the offer though!
There’s doing the right thing, and you have nailed it, Professor, and there’s doing what can be done at any given time, and that’s politics. If you’ll look at the news, including the show you were just on, (Rachel Maddow) you’ll notice that Obama can’t crack a smile without incurring the wrath of the Right Wing Echo Chamber. My husband works with people who call him the Anti-Christ. I’m with you on the need for war crimes investigations, but I’m also looking at the bigger picture. Obama’s task is to clean out the Augean stables of the Bush legacy. This criminal legacy runs deep and in all directions: war crimes, financial fraud, and that hybrid creature of war crimes and financial fraud known as the Iraq War. I confess to being one of those who fall silent when I hear valid criticism such as yours.
Here is what I hope is happening: There is a steady drip of released memos on war crimes. The Justice Department, quietly and steadily, is at work, and like water on a stone, that steady drip of memos will eventually wear a hole through the last vestige of public opposition to criminal proceedings. It will wear through the media denial of the seriousness of the charges. Through the threadbare Right Wing notion that burying the corpse in the unmarked grave of National Security is in the best interest of the nation.
There are reasons to choose battles carefully. Health care and the budget are next on the line. Delaying war crimes prosecutions may not be a morally correct action, in the strictest sense of the word, but from what I have seen, Obama is cautious and careful. Given the Rove/Miers/Libby/Gonzales track record, putting these people under oath will be a waste of time. They will lie, obfuscate, “forget,” clam up, or just refuse to show up. When Obama unleashes the hounds, I think it will be at a time when the prosecution has an airtight case and the public support to see it through. In the meantime, let Cheney talk, let them all talk. Tape them contradicting themselves. Let Obama’s foreign policy bear fruit in lowered international tension. Eventually, his actions will speak louder than their words. Give them, in other words, enough rope to hang themselves.
If Congressional majorities increase for the Dems in 2010, I’ll look for prosecution to rise to the top of the list. I’ll give him that long. In the meantime, speak your mind Professor Turley, because that is an important part of the battle for the soul of the nation.
I too watched you on Rachel’s show explaining the Bush Administration crimes as you have done for so many years now. What seems odd to me now is that President Obama is a Constitutional lawyer like yourself so certainly he should also have essentially the same legal opinion that Bush et al failed to uphold the Constitution and the rule of law.
Perhaps my eternal hope that the law will prevail and giving him the benefit of doubt, I wonder if given the short time he has been in office and the horrible state the economy he is trying to deal with has put this problem on the back burner for the moment. I would hope that he intends to let AG Holder loose (he may have already done so), and he’s letting the perps hang themselves a bit more so the indictments are truly a slam-dunk.
Lets hope so. Keep the pressure on whenever you can.
I want to applaud Mr. Turley for his comments on Rachel Maddow’s show. 3/23/ 09 Excellent! I agree — bring in a special prosecutor. Torturing people is so despicable. Thank you. Come on Mr. President, do the right thing.
Buddha:
“frustrafunkadelic”? WTF LOL!
the antidote – Vitamin D, you aint gettin enuff sunshine. Although vodka and cranberry juice is good to.
Obama has affirmed bush administration positions against detainees. This post describes an affirmative action to deny justice to a victim of torture. He has been asked to turn over documents and refused. He is repeting some of the worst presidential abuses of the bush administration. We need to stop making excuses for this behavior.
Likewise, there is no excuse not to prosecute for war crimes as JT pointed out so strongly. Obama himself has stated several times that he can do more than one thing at a time as president. He is not doing the right thing on many matters. The only way he will do the right thing is if every person of conscience quits worrying about his motives and acts on their own conscience. Torture is wrong. War crimes should be investigated. Pressure, pressure and more pressure is needed from our citizens.
Buddha,
Wouldn’t that make it a funktini?
Bron,
I know we’re mostly brown liquor people here, but what sort of philistine adds cranberry juice to Vodka? Or maybe the question should be, what sort of philistine drinks cheap enough Vodka that they want to add cranberry juice?
Jill,
You are correct that pressure is the answer. I expect that Obama will “do the right thing”. However, I don’t understand why he hasn’t done more. In response to tfgray, what makes you think that there is public opposition to criminal investigations and prosecution of the Bush administration? All the polls that I have seen have shown a majority in favor of investigating.
Jill and Patty,
I would say that even working under the same assumptions as Patty (and others) someone as politically savvy as our current President can make use of a surge of public pressure to do what he was going to do anyways. If however Jill’s side is right, then the pressure is necessary to bring about the change, so either way it’s effect is positive.
Gyges:
Vodka goes well with any fruit juice, vegetable juice, bullion (bullshot or maybe even a chicken shot for our Hindu friends), fruit, filling a cold watermellon with a hypodermic is always good on a lazy summer day, just make sure the kids dont get hold of a piece. I have had frozen Stoly which has the consistancy of glycerin and is pretty tasty but I do agree with you that the brown spirits are best. Brown beer is good too, the pilsners are just ok although some of the Belgians are very good.
So I dont know if I can be classified as a philistine or just plebian.
“If you add vodka and George Clinton to that you get “frustrafunkadelic”.”
Buddha,
Great word; but how does it break down when you conjugate it?
I could say it, but I won’t…! ;P
FROM: March 21, 2009 – Three (3) days ago…
“…According to the administration official, ex-CIA director Michael Hayden was “furious” about the prospect of disclosure and tried to intervene directly with Obama officials. But the White House has sided with Holder. Faced with a court deadline in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit regarding the memos filed by the ACLU, Justice lawyers asked for a two-week extension “because the memoranda are being reviewed for possible release.” (White House, Justice and CIA spokesmen all declined to comment.)…”
—–
FROM: yesterday 3/23/09
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/03/report_more_olc_torture_memos_to_come.php?ref=m1
“…The ACLU is suing, under the Freedom of Information Act, for release of the memos. Several were put out last month. It’s unclear exactly when the new ones will be released.
Newsweek also has fresh reporting on a related controversy. As we noted last week, a secret 2007 report compiled by the International Committee for the Red Cross, and revealed last week by the New York Review of Books, contains accounts of CIA officers using extremely harsh techniques on three high-value al Qeada targets, including Khaled Shaik Mohammed, at secret CIA prisons.”
Bron,
Stoly is your problem. If you can find it try Monopolowa for mixing. If you’ve got Blini and caviar try Chopin or Pravda, they are my two favorite for the Top Shelf. I like Pravda more for dry Martinis, and Chopin more for drinking straight.
If you want to get me started on beer, then we’ll be here for a long long time. I’m currently studying for my BJCP test in Aug.
Bobesq:
assuming it is a verb I offer for the past tense:
frustrafunkadelam
frustrafunkadelas
frustrafunkadelat
frustrafunkadamus (my personal favorite)
frustrafunkadatis
frustrafunkadant
Gyges:
what is a BJCP? I have made some home brew and it turned out pretty good, it is a fun time to brew but the cleaning is a wicked bitch. Is the BJCP a commercial brewers license? In Fairfax we have a couple of good restaurants that make their own beer. The last couple of decades have been good to beer, when I was younger I always wondered what all the fuss was about and then I had my first microbrew and I have not been the same since. I even go so far as to say that beer is much more complex than wine and harder to make a good batch. Although I can hear the oenophiles gasping as they suck air into their mouths to “taste” the vin.
Bron,
Basically it’s a national certification program that most home-brew and commercial-brew contests require you to pass before they’ll hire you to judge their event. You get tested, in depth, on: knowledge of styles, beer history, the brewing process, etc. It’s pretty hard work to pass, but it’s hard work that involves drinking and brewing beer.
http://www.bjcp.org/index.php
Gyges:
interesting.
Which is harder? I should think the drinking, with brewing you have the anticipation of the drinking but with drinking you have the anticipation of the brewing. Although I wont count out the reciprocal.
I refuse to accept the possibility that the President’s ears are deaf to these pleas. This may be, that one thing too many to handle at this time, given the scope of things being attended to at this time.
I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, at this point, but it won’t last forever. I believe it will have to be faced before the year is out. I think he may be looking for people, like Professor Turley, and others including us, to help gin up concern, interest, and furor, to make the case such that it looks less like a partisan attack, and more like a populist ground swell which demands immediate attention. Once it gets to that point, it will be impossible to avoid. Not even the Rethuglicans will be able to dampen the ire.
At least, that’s what I hope.
Jill and Johnny2xs, your concerns and postings on this issue are reflective of my own concerns. I still have hope that justice will be done but the sheer magnitude of the undertaking is stupefying. The prospect of placing what would become almost an entire Administration on trial is on a par with the Nuremberg trials. I fear that no American politician has the cojones to do it.
I’ll still write my letters to the White House and various Congress persons but I’m not holding my breath. It would sure do me proud though to see a dedicated wing of Leavenworth prison reserved for the Bush Administration and any Democratic enablers that could be convicted also.
CCD,
signed the petition, thanks.
Vodka Aficionados,
Look up the definition of “grain neutral spirits” which is on all your non flavored vodka bottles and then try Tequila Patron Gold or Silver, neat never mixed.
Mike,
I do enjoy the occasional Tequila, but you’re doing Vodka a disservice. The difference between Everclear and an import from Poland or Russia (last I looked all domestic and most EU Vodka has to be flavor neutral) Top shelf Vodka is huge.
Feel free to put the words “Top Shelf” in a place that makes more sense.
Gyges,
Just having a little fun is all. Also while the spirits may be grain neutral, the distillation process can make a big difference between heartburn and heaven. I can talk from experience having had it with some rotgut vodka and I’m not talking about heaven.
To my fellow Hedonists and Epicureans,
Vodka can a beautiful drink. Like a gulp of cold air. I suggest Chopin ($45 bottle) or Monopolova (about $17, but almost as good as Chopin, harder to find). Both are potato vodkas. Stoli works in a pinch or for mixing. I should warn you ahead of time, mixing with Chopin is probably a sin and most certainly a waste. Bad vodka, as Mike has pointed out, is truly heinous. Asahi makes a rice based vodka I got loaded on in Japan once that will make you pray for death.
Bob,
I will defer to Bron’s excellent conjugation for frustrafunkadelic.
Buddha,
Already recommended those two, plus Pravda (A Polish Rye Vodka). To my eternal shame I did however leave out Ciroc.
how many good vodkas are there? I must lead a very sheltered life, sigh.
Gyges,
Sorry man, missed that post, but once again great minds think alike.
Guges:
I vote Ciroc–grapes beat potatoes every time.
I agree mespo, Ciroc is lovely for ‘vodka’ because it is eau de vie – made from grapes as are grappa and brandy.
But I must agree that potato vodkas are infinitely better than
pure grain alcohol!
I would also be remiss if I didn’t mention Cold River potato vodka which has been recently introduced, produced, and distilled in Maine and has received many awards already.
I think it’s good. I also think it’s probably a little too expensive for most Mainers.
http://www.coldrivervodka.com/home.php
Here’s a quote from JT via Glenn Greenwald. Important and stong words. Pressure, pressure and more pressure is the only answer here.
“As law professor Jonathan Turley put it on Rachel Maddow’s show Monday night:
The president refuses to allow the investigation of war crimes. And we just found out the international Red Cross, also the definitive body on torture, found that this was a real torture program. And yet, the president is having a debate with the guy [Cheney] over whether it was good policy. . . .
It is just as bad to prevent the investigation and prosecution of a war crime as its commission because you become part of it. There‘s no question about a war crime here. . . .
You know, some people say, what do you need, a film? We actually had films of us torturing people. So this would be the shortest investigation in history. You have Bush officials who have said that we tortured people. We have interrogators who have said we tortured people. The Red Cross has said it. A host of international organizations have said it. . . .
He should be appointing a special prosecutor. There is no question about that. This is the most well-defined and publicly known crime I have seen in my lifetime. There is no debate about it. There is no ambiguity. It is well known.”
I don’t see how Obama can keep pretending there’s nothing for him to do here except try to stall and hide information from the American people. Information on torture is coming out in Britain directly implicating our govt. in torture and its cover up. We must follow the rule of law to restore any credibility the US can claw back after the last 8 years. Today Obama claimed his highest responsibility was to keep the American people safe. (I have problems with that statement but if he means that, then he needs to allow an independent prosecutor to go forward with a no holes barred war crimes investigation. Our failure to act in the case of overwhelming evidence, evidence that is spreading around the world like wildfire, is putting our public directly at risk. The way to stop our wrongdoing from being the best terrorist recruiting tool ever is to renounce it and clean up our mess. If that statement was anything other than a cynical appeal as a “father figure” to a fearful populace then he will allow an independent investigation to proceed.
“The attorney general, Lady Scotland, announced the unprecedented move in light of damning evidence that Britain’s security and intelligence agencies colluded with the CIA in Mohamed’s inhuman treatment and secret rendition.
She said the police inquiry would look into “possible criminal wrongdoing” in what the high court described as Mohamed’s unlawful questioning.”
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ (from the Guardian)
I read this in the ACLU blog section. I think because JT spoke so strongly that it made a deep impression on many people. I’ve seen him quoted all over the place for what he said:
“Last night, George Washington University constitutional law professor Jonathan Turley delivered some refreshing straight-talk on the Rachel Maddow Show. Noting that conducting a criminal investigation into the authorization of torture and abuse of detainees by Bush administration officials is not only about values but is about enforcing the law, the good professor called for the appointment of a special prosecutor — just like we did:
When we talk about values, the most important one is that the president has to enforce the laws. He can‘t pick and choose who would be popular to prosecute.
… He should be appointing a special prosecutor. There is no question about that. This is the most well-defined and publicly known crime I have seen in my lifetime. There is no debate about it. There is no ambiguity. It is well known.
You‘ve got people involved who have basically admitted the elements of a war crime that we are committed to prosecuting.
…The easiest thing [for President Obama] to do is get out of the way, say, “You know what, this is not about values. This is about the law. I took an oath to God to enforce the law. And you know what, fellow? You are going to be a target of an investigation. And maybe you are not guilty. Maybe you are. But it is not for me to decide it. It‘s for a special prosecutor.”
Turley is right, and the last week we wrote to Attorney General Holder renewing our call for him to appoint an independent prosecutor. There is more than enough evidence already in the public domain to warrant a criminal investigation. And after eight years of weak oversight, Congress must do its part, too, and form its own select committee to investigate these wrongs. As Dr. Turley says, this isn’t about politics. It’s about the law.”
http://blog.aclu.org/2009/03/24/this-is-about-the-law/
The Bush/Cheney et al. war crimes make for strange bedfellows:
A conservative, 30-year registered Republican and the ACLU…
Good link Jill. I also read the letter the ACLU sent to AG Holder.
Prior to Bush/Cheney, the closest I would get to even admitting the ACLU existed was a rearrangement of the letters: UCLA
Jill, thank you.
FFLEO, the Bruins lol.
Jill,
Nice job. Thanks!
Hey CCD,
I trust that your neck-of-the-woods are currently fresh out of GOP husband abusing, toy guitar-wielding diminutive wives; for the time being, at least.
Yeah, I once considered the ACLU to be a bunch of ‘bears’ (actually much worse).
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