Faced with dim prospects for reelection in Pennsylvania, Sen. Arlen Specter has announced that he will switch parties. The question is how democrats in Pennsylvania will feel about Specter who supported Bush on critical issues. After eight years under George W. Bush, Specter has come to the conclusion that he is really a Democrat and does not share the same GOP values as his former party.
Specter issued a statement that “I now find my political philosophy more in line with Democrats than Republicans.” Specter came to this epiphany not during the torture debate or the unlawful surveillance debate (which he publicly criticized the Administration but ultimately voted to back up the president), but rather when Republicans are failing like leaves and Democrats are preparing for a highly likely victory. By resigning now, Specter hopes to start to vote in line with his state to erase the memories of the last six years in his votes on Supreme Court nominees, immunity and other issues. Spector has often played Hamlet on such issues publicly, but largely worked with the Administration in securing votes on most of these issues. Indeed, his Chairmanship (before the fall of the GOP in the Senate) was based on his assured loyalty to the Bush agenda.
What is interesting is that in the statement below, Specter focuses on the unpopularity of the stimulus vote to Republicans and says that he regrets that so many in the GOP do not want him for their candidate. It falls a bit flat as a statement of principle and value differences.
The Senate Democrats have welcomed Specter into the fold and are expected to give him some seniority benefits for his defection.
Specter, 79 is in his fifth term and his new strategy will test how short the memory of Pennsylvania voters is. , is one of a handful of Republican moderates remaining in Congress in a party now dominated by conservatives. Several officials said the White House as well as leaders in both parties had been involved in discussions leading to his move.
If Franken wins in Minnesota, it will give Democrats total control and filibuster proof in the Senate.
Here is his full statement this afternoon:
Statement by Sen. Arlen Specter:
I have been a Republican since 1966. I have been working extremely hard for the Party, for its candidates and for the ideals of a Republican Party whose tent is big enough to welcome diverse points of view. While I have been comfortable being a Republican, my Party has not defined who I am. I have taken each issue one at a time and have exercised independent judgment to do what I thought was best for Pennsylvania and the nation.
Since my election in 1980, as part of the Reagan Big Tent, the Republican Party has moved far to the right. Last year, more than 200,000 Republicans in Pennsylvania changed their registration to become Democrats. I now find my political philosophy more in line with Democrats than Republicans.
When I supported the stimulus package, I knew that it would not be popular with the Republican Party. But I saw the stimulus as necessary to lessen the risk of a far more serious recession than we are now experiencing.
Since then, I have traveled the state, talked to Republican leaders and office-holders and my supporters and I have carefully examined public opinion. It has become clear to me that the stimulus vote caused a schism which makes our differences irreconcilable. On this state of the record, I am unwilling to have my twenty-nine year Senate record judged by the Pennsylvania Republican primary electorate. I have not represented the Republican Party. I have represented the people of Pennsylvania.
I have decided to run for reelection in 2010 in the Democratic primary.
I am ready, willing and anxious to take on all comers and have my candidacy for reelection determined in a general election.
I deeply regret that I will be disappointing many friends and supporters. I can understand their disappointment. I am also disappointed that so many in the Party I have worked for for more than four decades do not want me to be their candidate. It is very painful on both sides. I thank specially Senators McConnell and Cornyn for their forbearance.
I am not making this decision because there are no important and interesting opportunities outside the Senate. I take on this complicated run for reelection because I am deeply concerned about the future of our country and I believe I have a significant contribution to make on many of the key issues of the day, especially medical research. NIH funding has saved or lengthened thousands of lives, including mine, and much more needs to be done. And my seniority is very important to continue to bring important projects vital to Pennsylvania’s economy.
I am taking this action now because there are fewer than thirteen months to the 2010 Pennsylvania Primary and there is much to be done in preparation for that election. Upon request, I will return campaign contributions contributed during this cycle.
While each member of the Senate caucuses with his Party, what each of us hopes to accomplish is distinct from his party affiliation. The American people do not care which Party solves the problems confronting our nation. And no Senator, no matter how loyal he is to his Party, should or would put party loyalty above his duty to the state and nation.
My change in party affiliation does not mean that I will be a party-line voter any more for the Democrats that I have been for the Republicans. Unlike Senator Jeffords’ switch, which changed party control, I will not be an automatic 60th vote for cloture. For example, my position on Employees Free Choice (card check) will not change.
Whatever my party affiliation, I will continue to be guided by President Kennedy’s statement that sometimes party asks too much. When it does, I will continue my independent voting and follow my conscience on what I think is best for Pennsylvania and America.
For the full story, click here and here.
Do not get your hopes up for filibuster 60-proof whiskey.
That total of 60 holds a few potential blue dogs from red states who may be forced by politcal forces back home to support a GOP filibuster.
I welcome the good flip-floppin’ Senator’s defection from my Republican Party. This will give the citizenry the opportunity to observe if the Democrats can perform better than the Republicans did; better, so I trust!
Besides, even if this is purely a political move (ha!), I respect a man who admits his mistakes and I do think Sen. Spector is a decent man and a skilled attorney who simply kowtowed to the GOP ideology instead of thinking critically about important issues.
My Republican Party failed miserably, we need to denounce their wrongheaded philosophy, wipe the slate clean, and give the Democrats the full reins to see if they can turn this runaway stage around…and not make a ‘spector-cle’ of themselves.
he should have retired. it appears to be a craven move on his part.
I don’t agree that his decision is necessarily “craven.” He has usually appeared moderate and thoughtful in his decisions and he has a very good legal mind, an increasingly rare phenomenon in Congress. I have no problem welcoming him aboard the train.
He is not changing his postition on the labor priority bill, the Employee Free Choice Act EFCA, which would allow unions initial recognition by card check rather than an election.
That tells me that he cannot expect enthusiastic labor support in PA, one of the last strong union states.
The Blues will probably filibuster the seating of Franken, to forestall the apocalypse.
While I’m happy that the Democrats are on the brink of amassing an artificial spine for themselves, I would have been happier if Nancy Pelosi resigned.
Don’t forget that Lieberman would be one of the 60.
Bob,Esq., I second your views on Pelosi. I wouldn’t mind if Reid were replaced either.
This reminds me of the early 80s when Phil Graham of Texas defected to the GOP. I will say that when he did that, he resigned from office and ran as a Republican. I will add that he did win.
It sounds more like this decesion is a realization that this is a party of Conviencen,rather than a heart felt consciencness. I suppose when the GOP membership in PA is dropping faster than flyes at Shea. I guess I would do the same thing.
Patti C would you please correct this entry asd I sent it from my phone.
AY, please don’t get Patti started on this thread.
Ah yes Hannibal Specter, the correct thing would of been a switch to an independent. They will no doubt give Franken his seat and the coup d’ etat will be complete. 60 votes all day long.
AnonY:
Thank you for that explanation about using a phone keypad; that explains a lot! BTW, I have never sent a text message (texted) and I probably never will.
bdaman, that is called good political strategy; not the way I would play, but good.
Perhaps you missed his disgusting smears of Anita Hill during the Clarence Thomas hearings or prefer to ignore his support for some of the worst ‛legal minds’ on the Supreme Count.
Arlen Spector is one of those guys who is on your side ….. until you need him. This decision was motivated by political survival. He was going to lose to his challenger who was then going to lose to the Democratic candidate.
A filibuster-proof majority. Yawn.
Who gives if this filibuster-proof majority is not used to accomplish anything that progressives stand for? The past decade the only qualities Democrats in the Senate have shown have been sheepishly conceeding to Repulican demands and utter incompetence.
As Greenwald notes, having Specter on the Democrats’ team is meaningless if he rejects most purportedly Democratic views. http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/28/specter/index.html
Thanks for the perspective Gnome, I’m about as excited about Specter as a Democrat as I am about Lieberman.
FFN:
I would not look a gift horse in the mouth. The whole Repub calculus just changed due to this move, and ,as Earl Warren understood very well, in matters of State, just enough is good enough every time. I suppose Specter took Emerson to heart albeit a little late that:
“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.”
No “little statesman,” this Specter fellow. Bring on the war crimes tribunals.
Former Federal LEO 1, April 28, 2009 at 2:28 pm
AnonY:
Thank you for that explanation about using a phone keypad; that explains a lot! BTW, I have never sent a text message (texted) and I probably never will.
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I usually read most of the messages on my phone, I just find that it is easier. Well sir if you have children at the age that most of my counterparts have grandchildren, ya just have to learn.
One day I was texting my 14 year old and a young girl about 18 walks by and I hear her say. “I have never seen an old man text before.” Oh well.
But FF LEO. I take that as a compliment.
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Mike 1, April 28, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Arlen Spector is one of those guys who is on your side ….. until you need him. This decision was motivated by political survival. He was going to lose to his challenger who was then going to lose to the Democratic candidate.
When I was on the SDEC everyone had issues with Phil Graham and his party switch. We did want to keep the seat Democratic. I will give you this, he resigned, which I think was the correct thing to do and ran as a Republican.
FF LEO,
I have a windows based phone cell phone and not a Blackberry (For those not informed the CIA used them out of Great Britain, for what ever reason I do not know) I can sync up everything and never miss a beat. It has a regular keypad on it. Motorola has come or will be coming out with one that is not only touch screen but a regular keyboard that slides out as well.
I can do the touch screen for small directional issues but for word processing, I prefer to use by good ole two thumbs.
How will this affect the senate committees he’s on. Isn’t he the ranking member of the senate judiciary committee?
LindyLou,
He will get a boost and be treated with open arms, since he was the first to defect.
AnonY:
Yes, that was a compliment. I have struggles enough with a full-sized USB external keyboard attached to my laptop/notebook.
When my son was young he would get impatient with me on the computer and would say, Oh Dad! just let me that instead of waiting on you to do it wrong!
I am not excited by Specter’s switch to the Dem party, and I think his giving the Dem’s a filibuster-proof majority on most important issues is a pipe dream. I just hope the Dem’s didn’t promise him that they wouldn’t support a Dem primary challenger in next fall’s election. The Senate’s being such a clubby bunch, though, they probably did.
He will fit in well with the other Blue Dogs, but it would be foolish to count on him for a progressive vote. I leave it to PA’s union membership to change his mind about EFCA.
I don’t trust him; I don’t think he’s a great legal mind, and he has the unfortunate habit of orating sensibly on one side of an issue and then voting on the other. And I will never forgive him for his conduct in the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings. He lied and slandered Anita Hill, and then, against all better judgment, voted to confirm that cretin.
Former Federal LEO 1, April 28, 2009 at 4:14 pm
AnonY:
Yes, that was a compliment. I have struggles enough with a full-sized USB external keyboard attached to my laptop/notebook.
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I will read most if not all of these messages on my phone. It makes it so much easier. That way I can sift through some of the BS and watch mother nature.
This morning a little ole chick finally hatched in the chimney and dropped down to the pit. I picked it up with a towel and took it outside. I placed it on the chase lounge and once it got orientated it flew up. Waiting for it was its mother and they flew in unison to a Pecan tree. It was a beautiful experience.
It is kind of amazing what excites you once you get a little older.
If a dude posts here called Former Republican we can suspect it is him huh Former Dem?
Mike, truthfully, I had forgotten about the Anita Hill testimony. Maybe Sen. Specter was finally overcome with guilt and has finally seen the light.
I also forgot about the A. Hill testimony. She displayed abundant courage, I think that C. Thomas was lying, and he got the ‘job’ because he is a black male.
Sen. Specter has made many wrong decisions that have cost lives, but he is no worse than most in Congress. I think that his cancer made him a more reflective human and no doubt, he has some deep-seated regrets.
He might want to live-out his life as a Democrat to perhaps establish the legacy for which he prefers to be remembered, so why not give the man a fair chance.
Consider his actions a resounding confession and refutation of all of the wrongs he has wrought, at times, as an ideologically extreme Republican, a political philosophy that has been thoroughly discredited and disgraced.
FFLEO, I agree with you. I found Anita Hill’s testimony extremely credible and gutsy.
LindyLou
1, April 28, 2009 at 4:02 pm
How will this affect the senate committees he’s on. Isn’t he the ranking member of the senate judiciary committee?
I heard native Philadelphian, Chris Matthews discussing this with Andrea Mitchell who was a reporter in Philadelphia as far back as the 60′s. In fact Ms Mitchell said, in response to Matthews’ comment that she’s known Specter for a long time, “I’ve known Arlen Specter so long I remember when he used to be a DEMOCRAT in the mid-60′s. Specter switched parties then to be elected District Attorney.
They made the following statements about the deal:
The deal was arranged and managed by PA Gov. Ed Rendell, who according to Matthews literally runs PA Dem. politics, and Joe Biden.
The Democrats’ primary field will be cleared of any and all challengers.
The President will endorse his candidacy during the primary.
Sghould he win, he would keep his senority as if he’d been a Dem since his first Senate election in 1980. Andrea Mitchell claimed that Specter wants the Appropriations Committee Chairmanship and that appears likely.
He’ll probably be given some latitude for renegade votes on
certain issues, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Harry Reid was given the business end of a chain tied to Specter’s voting finger that Reid can give a yank whenever there’s a high priority, President-Obama-agenda item on the docket.
QofS:
I had to look this up at wiki because I could not remember Thomas’ words, but when he made these statements, and one other I will try to find, is when it occurred to me that he was lying. He was trying hard to deflect the facts against him and I bet this is one of the biggest *Red Herrings* in judicial history:
______________
{Quote: Thomas denied the allegations, stating:
“ This is not an opportunity to talk about difficult matters privately or in a closed environment. This is a circus. It’s a national disgrace. And from my standpoint, as a black American, it is a high-tech lynching for uppity blacks who in any way deign to think for themselves, to do for themselves, to have different ideas, and it is a message that unless you kowtow to an old order, this is what will happen to you. You will be lynched, destroyed, caricatured by a committee of the U.S. Senate rather than hung from a tree.[39] End Quote}
_____________
Mike Appleton 1, April 28, 2009 at 2:04 pm
AY, please don’t get Patti started on this thread.
—
Thanks for your support, Mike A.!
~Patty
with a ‘y’
Gee, PattY C, don’t you miss anything?!
MY GOD THIS IS NOT A SITE WHERE ANYONE HAS ANYMORE RIGHTS THAN THE OTHER. ARE WE PLAYING NICELY? TAKE OFFENSE AT THIS! TAKE OFFENSE AGAINST THAT!
WHERE DOES THE SOAP OPERA BEGIN AND WHERE DOES IT STOP?
PATTY TO HAVE SO MUCH ED-U-MA-SHUN YOU ARE THE BIGGEST BABY THAT HAS EVER BEEN BORN. ANY SCHOOLING THAT YOU HAVE HAS BEEN LOST.
LAST SATURDAY YOU SAID THAT YOU WOULD NOT POST ON HERE ANYMORE. WHY BECAUSE YOU WERE TOLD THAT YOU DO NOT PLAY NICE. I THINK YOU SHOULD POST. WHY, BECAUSE I WANT TO LEARN WHAT I DON’T KNOW.
YOU WANT TO DENIGRATE ANYTHING AND ANYONE THAT DOES NOT PAY HOMAGE TO PATTI.
GET A LIFE AND GET OVER IT……..
One thing about the trolls Parry, they don’t take it personal. They are designed to upset the status quo. They are just following orders.
What can you say about how you do things?
Anon,
I bet he’ll get some fist bumps and friendly rump swats in the locker rooms, too. I’d just feel a lot better if someone would come right out and say that Patrick Leahy will remain the chair of the judiciary committee.
Talk had been that Specter and Collins crossed party lines to sneak in changes to the stimulus package legislation that were adverse to the general public but great for the CEOs. I want to trust him, but I have a hard time trusting anybody who went along with the Bush/Cheney line of thinking for 8 years without a change of heart during that time.
I bet there were some Trojans who really wished they had taken just a little peek into that horse’s mouth. I want to be grateful for this gift, but part of me is feeling it’s too good to be true.
Hey AnonY let’s old guys get back on topic.
I have searched for C. Thomas stating (paraphrasing) that no one but his god could judge him, but I could not find that.
Does anyone else remember his statement?
RCampbell,
Thank you! I’m glad to see I’m not the only one thinking about these things. Wow, I didn’t know Specter had been a dem. I feel better knowing Biden was involved. For some reason, I trust him more than I know I should.
LAST SATURDAY YOU SAID THAT YOU WOULD NOT POST ON HERE ANYMORE.
—
I never said I would stop posting here.
My statement was regard to being ‘DONE’ after my one statement with regard to seamus and Jill’s incitement therof. I can find the quote if you like.
I know exactly what i said.
Patty C.
Please do find the quote.Not that I really care and NOT that I wish you would stop posting. What I wish as well as a lot of other people that you would refrain from personal attacks, whether it be the length of time that they have been on this site or if they say something disagreeable to you or about you or anything else. Just ignore it, please.
People do not need this type of stuff. We all have enough of a rough time living our real lives. This site is a welcome antidote for me. I hope a lot of people feel this way. You know what I mean?
AnonY:
What species of bird was that you found, a chimney swift?
Hi, Patty. I knew you’d find it.
Arlen Spector and Gerry Ford thought up the single bullet theory of the warren Commission Report. To me that says it all and he has done nothing since that time to increase my confidence in him. I don’t see this as a Democratic gain, but a millstone of a losing candidate in 2010.
Also, I’ve read every post on this thread and I don’t understand why Patty C. was brought into this, not that she didn’t have a right to join. AY your remark was gratuitous an uncalled for and Mike A. your response was the same. Our host has quite specifically asked us to play nice and given the crappy arguments on other sites, this one is a blessing.Why don’t we keep it that way?
Specter is also a War Criminal. He voted to invade Iraq and fund the Wars. He conspired and waged Wars of Aggression – the worst crimes in the world. He is a Warmonger just like Hitler.
Harrumph. Yet another very interesting topic is turning into the Patty C show.
The Specter of Pop Cornyn Saving America:
http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/04/specter-of-pop-cornyn-saving-america.html
Mike Spidell,
I have been scolded. I acknowledge this and I apologize.
I wouldn’t get too excited about Spector changing his stripes. He has already stated that he won’t vote for Obama’s OLC nominee. Beware of a Democrat in Wolf’s clothing.
Thanks Mike S. I sincerely appreciate that!
Per your request, AY. Read for yourself…
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/04/26/the-alberto-gonzales-defense-judge-bybee-reportedly-denies-that-he-wrote-infamous-memo/#comment-49883
#
Patty C 1, April 27, 2009 at 1:36 pm
That’s it. I am going state this once and then I am
DONE!
In ‘fairness’ to seamus,’Esq’, no less, not that he deserves it from me, perhaps if it weren’t for Jill’s flagrant disregard for my many requests to ‘Cool it’ and watch her potty mouth, which he no doubt was mirroring, perhaps he would not otherwise have been disposed to foul the area with exchanges so incredibly disrespectful and juvenile. We may never know, now…
etc etc etc
—
BTW, AY, hassling me by ‘YELLING in caps’, attempting to assign blame for legitimately objecting to ‘baloney’ and being generally insulting will not endear oneself to me. If you act like a jerk, I’ll treat you like one.
And I will stick up for myself. The first time I’m usually very polite – second time, not so much. It’s pretty simple cause and effect type of stuff.
This blog used to be delightful fun almost every day. I do miss that.
The level of discourse took a dive after the departure of DW, our fellow poster and friend, because of recurrence of his illness.
This place has never been the same since, in my opinion.
Fergit bout it, I am going to hold my breath until I turn blue. And then you are gonna be real sorry.
rafflaw -
My first thoughts on that, too. A wolf in sheep’s clothing. But I also think he’s just desperate to stay in the senate no matter what. And then rcampbell’s take is exactly where my mind also wandered on the inside deal:
“He’ll probably be given some latitude for renegade votes on
certain issues, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Harry Reid was given the business end of a chain tied to Specter’s voting finger that Reid can give a yank whenever there’s a high priority, President-Obama-agenda item on the docket.”
In other words, be your independent-self all you want, until we tell you it matters. Then you vote how we say you vote. And you can keep a seat in the senate …
I don’t really see this resulting in filibuster-proof senate either. I do see his defection as a blow to the Republican party (he did have some rather nasty parting words to the GOP), but I’m not sure it’s a net gain for the Democrats. It remains to be seen that he will/can be made to support Democratic legislation, oppose GOP radicalization, or advance the president’s agenda. I hope some good will come of it.
I don’t see Republicans or Democrats anymore. I just Congress and Washington D.C. with 99% Warmongers and War Criminals.
sorry typo:
I don’t see Republicans or Democrats anymore. I just see Congress and Washington D.C. with 99% Warmongers and War Criminals.
AnonY:
You say that watching the bird reunite with its mother kind of made your day,and as you say its amazing what little things like that can do,when you get older.
Mine was listening and seeing all of the “Repubs”throwing Arlen under the bus yesterday.
They really do eat their own,case in point when Phil Graham became a Republican,there was hardly a murmur from the Dems,I guess they knew what he was about anyway.
This is a Good Thing right? Well I think that the GOP has and will show their true colors, the harder it get the more Republicans we will get.
What the Dems get out of this are:
1) New “resolve” for the Rep governor of Minnesota to not certify Franken as the winner of the Nov 2008 senatorial race vs Coleman,
2) Another member of the “institutionalized” senate “Blue Dog” contingent, formed ostensibly to negate the otherwise commanding Dem senate majority,
3) And, amazingly, a possible change in committee chairs: “Rumor in Washington has it that Sen. Daniel Inouye (D-HI) may step down from the chairmanship of the Appropriations Committee, giving the seat to Sen. Pat Leahy (D-VT) — and opening the chairmanship of the Judiciary Committee to the new Democrat, Specter” !?!?
(http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/28/specter-opposes-johnsen/)
As to guaranteed votes from senators, the only know method to elicit same is anthrax in the mail.
John Puma 1, April 29, 2009 at 6:13 am
What the Dems get out of this are:
1) . . . .
3) And, amazingly, a possible change in committee chairs: “Rumor in Washington has it that . . . the chairmanship of the Judiciary Committee to the new Democrat, Specter”
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Now this makes me warm and Fuzzy. As muh Daughter would say, Oh Yeah, Oh Yeah. NOT.
here is some interesting info you will not find in the main stream media:
http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=3790
and also this from another website:
Here’s what one web site said on Feb. 16, 2006:
“Last week, U.S. President George W. Bush revealed in a public speech that U.S. authorities, working in concert with foreign intelligence and security agencies, had disrupted an al Qaeda plot in
2002 involving an aircraft attack against a skyscraper in Los Angeles. The attack originally had been planned to take place in October 2001, one month after the 9/11 attacks, but was repeatedly delayed for numerous reasons.
“As outlined by the president, the attack would have unfolded along now-familiar lines: Four al Qaeda operatives were supposed to hijack an airliner, seize the controls and ram the aircraft into the tallest building on the West Coast–the U.S. Bank Tower, formerly known as the Library Tower. The weapons used were to have been explosives the operatives concealed in their shoes, which supposedly would have aided them in blowing off the cockpit doors.”
The attack was foiled because of information given by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, under interrogation at Gitmo. Whatever “torture” they applied to him saved thousands of lives.”
“sorry typo:
I don’t see Republicans or Democrats anymore. I just see Congress and Washington D.C. with 99% Warmongers and War Criminals.”
I don’t see BuenaVistMall anymore. I see a wannabe radical, who is incapable of offering intelligent comments, or positing any solutions to the problems that face us. Since I been to your site, you don’t seem a troll, but that in truth makes you more pitiful. Your philosophy could be summed up by a mythical discussion you might have with your best friend, if that is even possible. To wit:
“In all this world only you and I can be trusted to be pure of intention and able to radically change things. Only some times I’m not really sure about the purity of your motives.”
It’s a lonely path you’ve picked for yourself BVM and it leads to despair rather than freedom. However, if its’ any comfort to you some of the most radical people I knew in the 60′s, Maoist’s of the Progressive Labor Party, are now Republican’s with family’s. The trouble with struggling to be out on the edge is that the vehemence used to convince yourself of being special, only masks a superficial belief.
MikeS:
“The trouble with struggling to be out on the edge is that the vehemence used to convince yourself of being special, only masks a superficial belief.”
Isnt vehemence a sympton of youth? You find something you like and embrace it with exuberance to the exclusion of all else, whether it be a woman or words. Age mellows the passions and more the pitty. BVM is just finding his way in the world.
Bron,
I understand your point, but I react to mindlessness of the radical variety badlt. This goes back to my 60′s experience as I watched the people who thought they were keepers of political purity, bring about an expansion of the horrors they supposedly were against. Like fundamentalists, political purists are a dangerous breed that usually hurt us all in their zeal to prove their view the correct one.
To EnhancedInterogationWorks
You say Bush claimed that before Feb 16, 2002 that an “attack was foiled because of information given by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, under interrogation at Gitmo.”
However, KSM wasn’t captured until in early March of 2003, more than a year later:
“WASHINGTON (CNN) — U.S. officials confirmed on Tuesday that another significant al Qaeda figure was captured in the weekend raid in Pakistan that nabbed suspected September 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.”
(Tuesday, March 4, 2003 Posted: 9:33 AM EST (1433 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/03/pakistan.arrests/
So can we please put that myth to rest?
MikeS:
“Like fundamentalists, political purists are a dangerous breed that usually hurt us all in their zeal to prove their view the correct one.”
No argument with that statement. Since I did not grow up in the 60′s I have had no opportunity to meet the type(s) you describe, although I have read about Tom Hayden and some stuff on the Chicago 7 (8,9,6?). they do sound a little scary.
EnhancedInterogationWorks:
Do you have superior knowledge? I looked it up too and what everyone says is correct, per sources to which I looked for verification.
I suppose they could have held him incognito for a year or more to protect sources but that sounds pretty far fetched.
Maybe the Government has a time machine that can only go back 12 months and have inadvertenly let the cat out of the bag. Any conspiracy theorists want to pipe in?
Sorry the date of the foiled LA attack was “in 2002,” still, at least, three months before KSM was captured.
Watched the Frank Baum masterpiece, “The Wizard of Oz” last night, and one scene struck me as particularly apt on this topic. After being doused with water, Margaret Hamilton, playing the Wicked Witch, uttered that classic, “You cursed brat! Look what you’ve done! I’m melting! Melting! Oh, what a world, what a world! Who would’ve thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness? I’m gone! I’m gone! I’m going!” Margaret’s green visage suddenly morphed into Mitch McConnell! (Add some wire rimmed spectacles and note the resemblance and bewilderment of both characters) Ding dong, indeed!
Here’s the segment:
Mespo:
Mitch McConnell has looked like that a lot lately and I know the look you are talking about. He had it the day they signed off on Bush’s TARP, he looked, I thouhgt, as a deer in the headlights but your Wicked Witch comparrison is much better.
The more I read on this sight and think about it, the angrier I become. I am really pissed at myself for even voting for Bush at this point. And I do hate to say it and I know GW isnt Hitler nor would be, but the next guy (I am speaking generalities and do not mean Pres. Obama) might be and he would use the precident and that is a scary thought. They really do need to appear before the bar and be punished, if for nothing else than making sure someone of malevolance dosent think it will be a cake walk to tyranny.
Thanks to all for shining the light on my humble head.
Bron98:
“And I do hate to say it and I know GW isnt Hitler nor would be, but the next guy (I am speaking generalities and do not mean Pres. Obama) might be…”
**********
Well “W” wasn’t, but not for lack of trying. I think that Austrian postcard painter had considerably more horsepower in the cranium than our privileged flyboy, and could construct an evil sentence or two in front of a crowd.
Bron, your comments highlight the fallacy in Sen. McCain’s statements on Face the Nation this past Sunday. His position was that we should forget the investigations and “move forward” because he is convinced that no future U.S. president will repeat the actions of Pres. Bush. He is not naive enough to believe that, but I think many politicians on both the left and the right have so little confidence in the public that they fear prosecutions will irreparably damage the social fabric.
MikeA:
as a friend of mine says, “Powere protects power”.
He [McCain] might be right about the social fabric, I think a good number would have a problem with prosecution, I did and it has taken me months of thinking about this issue and reading what has been written about it on this site and others to really fully understand and/or acknowledge the necessity of doing this. However I do think there is a political component for some on the left, payback for 2000 or some other issue(s) and those people need to not have a seat at this table. And conversely republican party hacks should be excluded.
I also think there needs to be a national debate on this, good minds from both side having a true debate about all of the issues and ramifications. It needs to be talked about in bars and beauty shops as well as the salons of intellectuals.
I trust the collective intelligence and integrity of the American people to make the right choice once they are fully informed.
Power protects power.
Prof. Turley:
can you please put in a spell check ap?
Bron98,
Spell check works on mine so long as I correct it before the next paragraph. Sometimes I just forget.
Anon:
thanks for the information
“although I have read about Tom Hayden and some stuff on the Chicago 7 (8,9,6?). they do sound a little scary.”
Bron,
Hayden wasn’t great, but he was a little more responsible and thoughtful than many others. The Chicago 7 is proof that the “road to hell is paved with good intentions,” as my Daddy used to say to me frequently. They went to Chicago looking for confrontation and when they found it in the overreaction of Mayor Daley and his police, then they played surprised martyrs. Their trial was a travesty of justice, presided over by a Yokel named Hoffman. I’m not exculpating myself in this because I was supportive of their effort and did consider them martyrs at the time.
Then too,Mayor Daley (senior) was a bad man and the Chicago Police responded brutally under his orders. Judge Hoffman was a total clown and conducted a bad trial. These facts blinded those of us on the Left to the bigger picture. Nixon’s election, which this practically engineered, was a total disaster for the US, the Civil Rights Movement, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos and the rest of the world. So with 20/20 hindsight the Chicago protests accomplished the reverse of what they were intended to do.
Politically, I think it’s easy to see that I’m still here on the Left Wing (even though this whole right/left thing represents political shorthand rather than reality), but the experience of aging has taught me to examine closely those who would purport to be my political allies, with as close an inspection as for those who would at first blush seem to be my political foes.
MikeS:
“but the experience of aging has taught me to examine closely those who would purport to be my political allies, with as close an inspection as for those who would at first blush seem to be my political foes.”
Very good and sage advice. I think I have learned that from this web site.
“Well “W” wasn’t, but not for lack of trying. I think that Austrian postcard painter had considerably more horsepower in the cranium than our privileged flyboy, and could construct an evil sentence or two in front of a crowd.”
–
mespo, we suspect Hitler was mad from late-state syphlis.
What’s W’s excuse – other than lack of trying,
in general?
Bron, I remember the 1968 Democratic Convention and the subsequent trial of the Chicago 7 quite well. I also met the Berrigan brothers that year and strongly supported the efforts of what were known as the Catonsville 9. I supported Gene McCarthy and was engraged at the actions of Mayor Daley and the Chicago police. I was enraged at Hubert Humphrey for what I perceived to be his complicity in the madness. I vowed never to vote for Humphrey. However, 1968 was the first time I was eligible to vote in a presidential election. I couldn’t abide the thought of Nixon, a man whom I had concluded could not be trusted after watching him debate John Kennedy, and pulled the lever for the Happy Warrior, deciding in the end that my reason should control my passion. Nixon won anyway, of course, and we all know how that turned out.
I have thought about those days frequently when considering the statements of Pres. Obama on the war crimes issue. Part of me hopes that he is attempting to avoid the use of conclusory language in his speeches so that his words are not viewed as prejudging the outcomes of investigations and prosecutions. Part of me believes that he is compromising principle for the sake of unity, and I become angry. But since I am only 62, I remember the events of 1968 as precautionary lessons against overreaction, and recognize that I must sometimes listen to my “elders,” such as Mike S., and summon the patience to wait it out, keep up the pressure and hope that the public will gradually come to the realization that we are only as sick as our secrets and that we cannot regain the health of the body politic unless we rid it of the poisons poured down its throat during the past eight years.
Mike A.,
As Jack Benny might have said: Well, what do you mean older I’m only 39? However, my picture either defines an Old Codger, or someone who has led a dissipated life. Some who know me would say both were true. In fact I’m almost three years older than you, so our experiences are quite congruent. I’m impressed by you meeting the Berrigans because there remains a warm spot in my heart for them and I too felt the Catonsville 9 deserved support and still do because theirs was a righteous action.
I was an RFK supporter from before his announcement and remembering watching TV that night in California, it still tears me up. Like you I voted for Humphrey, with nose held. It does my heart good to know there is a kindred spirit in certain experiences posting here, but then your comments are always thoughtful and you’ve become a very welcome addition.
Your mention of Humphrey though, brings me back to the ongoing critique of the President on the torture issue. As you well know Humphrey was the man who stood squarely against the Dixiecrats in his speech to the Democratic Convention in 1948 and led to Strom Thurmonds walkout. Humphrey was a man with an impeccable liberal record who unfortunately became Vice-President during an ill starred war and was forced to support his President. The trouble with our generation and those of us who were progressive activists, was that we convinced ourselves of our own uniqueness and purity. Any one not completely following our line of thinking and our putative purity was literally branded a pig.
How smug I was and how smug our generation to be convinced of our own infallibility and that we were the ones who knew the way to a better world. This is the curse of the Left, for in our insistence upon our specific views and non-conformist tendencies, we’ve been outflanked by those on the right who are collective thinkers and strict conformists. I would guess that that kind of thinking is representative of perhaps 50% of self identified conservatives. The remainder are people like FFLEO and Bron who are comfortable in thinking for themselves and take no ones marching orders.
You can’t herd cats as the saying goes and I would be loath to try, but I am comforted by the fact that there are others like me out there who have kept the faith, but still try to be open to other possibilities.
Mike S., I completely agree. Hubert Humphrey was a progressive in the great tradition of Robert La Follette. As Johnson’s vice president during the Vietnam years, he was placed in an impossible position. But at the time, my ardor convinced me that he had sold his soul for the nomination. Ideological purity was everything.
The greatness of the Berrigans for me lay in their willingness to dramatically bear witness to their beliefs with full knowledge of the consequences. Although Philip is dead, Daniel Berrigan is still alive and still active; he strongly opposed the Iraq invasion.
In any event, ideological purity means nothing if it accomplishes nothing. I find it interesting that the Republican Party finds itself in similar circumstances. The party is purging itself of all dissenting views and aberrational tendencies, such as a willingness to compromise. The remnant will be able to take pride in its unyielding commitment to its perception of righteousness and will produce no societal benefits.
Mike Spindell wrote:
“I would guess that that kind of thinking is representative of perhaps 50% of self identified conservatives.”
________________
Mike, the Republican conservatism I know and cherish is extinct. When I see the “Republican” congresspersons speak, I am ashamed. However, I will die a Republican.
All of the members of my family are Republicans. I am astounded that they literally love Ms. Palin and Mr. Beck! These are hard working, god-fearin’ decent, good, honest, and accomplished people. I am an atheist while they are Bible-Belt Christians. I grew up “believing” the Southern Baptist dogma and fortunately, college instruction in the biological sciences and evolution changed my life forever.
My ‘folks’ often state that they cannot understand how I can be such a moral man without god in my heart and that I am so Christian-like. I simply reply that I *think* instead of “believe” and I try to do what is morally right; that which every human should strive for, while often failing, offering recompense, trying to accept forgiveness *without* the grace of some ghost-god, and then trying over again.
People, *can* change, look at Bron98’s marked transformation since he started this blawg.
FFLEO,
I know that what you say about your family is true and I have no doubt that they are good people. All of us grew up in an America where we were somehow different and true. That the USSR and Red China were the places for propaganda and that what our media was telling us was just the news. I never blame the people of America, be they on the right or left. We have been increasingly conned by our media, by our advertisers and by the sponsoring corporations, into a view of the world that is unreal. Then too if you are a hard working, family person the odds are that you don’t have much time to ponder the nuances of political philosophy.
You and I probably are both born iconoclasts, though we come at it differently. This is perhaps why we see what other good people, just as smart as us, don’t see. I think most people in this country are just fine, even though there are many who are more prone to following orders than I am. It is the hustlers, the egotists and the outright crooks who have been screwing things up and most of us are too busy taking care of kith and kin to see it.
Yes, Sir, Mike.
I love a beautiful old hymnal from my youth entitled; ‘Just As I Am’. Although I thoroughly and unequivocally have rejected religion, those old hymns still remind me of the inherent qualities with which humans are born.
FFLEO:
my “transformation” was really in seeing that “Liberals” arent necessarily so liberal. I like the fact that most on this blog are very much into individual liberty and generally seem to be against big government intrusion in our daily lives. I had actually thought I would find people opposed to individual freedom and in favor of big government. And they typically want the same things I do, a prosperous happy and peaceful society.
All in all it has been an education. However I still think free market capitalism is the way to go to achieve those goals, although I have mellowed somewhat in thinking that maybe the sharks do need to be restrained somewhat.
FFLEO,
“Amazing Grace” well sung always brings tears to my eyes as does “Shall We Gather At The River.” Neither one could be described as Jewish Hymns, but they are oh so beautiful and so full of human emotion.
James Schneller, Plaintiff pro se in Schneller v. Cortes, released the following statement regarding Pennsylvania’s Senator Arlen Specter being appointed as an Elector in the Electoral College:
SCOTUS OBAMA CASE NOTES SPECTER’S IMPROPER NOMINATION AS PENNSYLVANIA ELECTOR IN NOVEMBER 2008 ELECTION
WASHINGTON, DC – Pennsylvanian James D. Schneller raises in his petition for writ of certiorari in the United States Supreme Court, filed on April 6, 2009, regarding failure of eligibility of Barack Obama for office, the fact that Senator Arlen Specter was appointed as a Pennsylvania elector for the 2008 presidential election.
Article 2 Section 1 of the United States Constitution directs that “no Senator or Representative, or person holding an office of trust or profit under the United States, shall be appointed an elector. “
Was the Senator so certain of a McCain loss that he felt above the law ? What other purpose might this illegal appointment serve ? This appointment is, at the least, further proof that much of Congress takes Presidential elections lightly and may have abandoned basic rights and principles that Americans hold sacred !
http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/2008-certificates/ascertainment-pennsylvania-01.html
You will notice that a certain “Arlen Specter” is listed as a Presidential Elector for John McCain and Sarah Palin, second row, fourth from the bottom.
Clearly, we do not have proper enforcement mechanisms regarding America’s electoral process in place at all. No wonder so many people are ignorant about eligibility issues; States aren’t even properly enforcing their own Electoral College process!
Then again, what does this say about the morals and ethics of folks like Sen. Arlen Specter? I suppose it is appropos to suggest that he truly wishes to make himself known by any means necessary.
Signed X, Malcolm
“NATIONAL GRAND JURY INDICTS OBAMA FOR FRAUD AND TREASON”
(United States of America) – April 29th 2009 – At 8 P.M, ET American Grand Jury convened and conducted a hearing with regard to CRIMINAL activity, complaints and allegations presented before said Jury.
After reviewing the evidence and voting, the 32 member American Grand Jury handed down the presentment(s) recommending that person(s) known as Barack Obama, aka: Barack Obama, Jr., aka: Barack Hussein Obama, aka: Barry Soetoro; aka: Barry Obama; aka: Barack H. Obama, aka: Barack Obama II, presumed President of the United States, be tried in Criminal Court for charges of fraud (eligibility) and treason.
Said Grand Jury was convened under the power and authority vested with the people as guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States of America, Amendent 5 of the Bill of Rights.
Mario Apuzzo, attorney for Plaintiffs in Kerchner v. Obama, made note of the Defendant’s second request for a time extension in this case:
Motion to Extend Time to Answer, Move, or Otherwise Respond & Declaration of Counsel has been filed by the defendants. The defendants have already had over two months to answer, move, or otherwise respond. As of the current deadline of May 5th they will have had 75 days from the time they were served to respond. In our opinion, that is an adequate amount of time to answer or move or other wise respond. An objection will be filed to this second request by the defendants for a further extension of time.
As Mr. Apuzzo noted on April 13, the government is always given 60 days by which to respond to any complaint brought against it. On that same date, the federal government requested an additional 15 days by which to respond, making the deadline May 5, 2009 for any motions on their part. Subsequently, per paragraph 10 of the motion, the Defendants have requested an additional 20 days to respond, making the would-be deadline June 1, 2009.
Of the reasons for the time extension request, Assistant US Attorney Elizabeth Pascal mentions that Vice President Dick Cheney and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi have both requested the DOJ to represent them in this matter. Also, per paragraph 8, Attorney Pascal mentions: “I was unaware that I could move for an extension of time to answer, move, or otherwise respond to the complaint pending the representation decision for those Defendants”
She also notes in paragraph 11:“The delay in filing a response in this case would in no way prejudice the Plaintiffs, but would provide a fair opportunity for the Department to respond appropriately to the allegations in the Complaint…” “The Second Amended Complaint is extensive, as it is comprised of 12 counts, with 347 paragraphs and 43 single-spacedendnotes of allegations, and a 30-paragraph prayer for relief.”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14705757/Kerchner-et-al-v-Obama-et-al-Motion-to-Extend-Time-Declaration-of-Counsel-Docs-171-172