Palin Threatens Washington Post, NY Times, MSNBC, and Other Publications With Defamation Lawsuit

225px-palin1Sarah Palin may have been unclear as to why she decided to quit early as governor, but her lawyer, Thomas Van Flein, is insisting that it is not because of an investigation of wrongdoing involving her house on Lake Lucille or the Wasilla Sports complex. The link was published in pieces by Alaska blogger Shannyn Moore, Huffpo, Washington Post, the NY Times and MSNBC.

While Palin’s rationale for leaving the job early is questionable, if not laughable, she has reason to be miffed about the suggestion that she is leaving with investigators on her heels. Special Agent Eric Gonzalez stated that “[t]here is absolutely no truth to those rumors, that we’re investigating her or getting ready to indict her. It’s just not true.”

Does this make it defamation? Probably not. Palin is both a public figure and public official. As such, she fails under the New York Times v. Sullivan standard and must show actual malice — defined as knowing falsity or a reckless disregard that the story was untrue. It is a standard that was designed to be difficult to satisfy. The purpose of a letter from counsel is to put the news organizations on notice that the story is false and defamatory. Any later stories are then easier to prove as defamation with such notice.

The Los Angeles Times quickly published an article debunking the link, here, despite the fact that the theory continues to multiply over the Internet.

87 thoughts on “Palin Threatens Washington Post, NY Times, MSNBC, and Other Publications With Defamation Lawsuit

  1. Good Morning All,I’m sitting here looking and listening to the discussion of Palins speech over the weekend,and I’m shaking my head in disbelief that a lot of commentators are saying how great,her performance was.

    The only thing that comes to mind about this whole situation to sum it all up is,that famous qoute that was made many,many years ago.”You can fool some of the people some of the time,But you can’t fool all of the people all of the time”

    But I’ll give it to her and her supporters,for trying to prove that theory wrong.

  2. Well, what about the deal that she has with the Kremlin to sell drilling right to the Russian Confederation to De Wolf North Alaska of it wolf, innuit and oil? I hear that is a big news story worth publishing.

    No I really think an investigation is looming that will prove her up ending. Not that she could not do it herself. She may be good for Alaska, but that is questionable. She is far to thinned skinned for National Politics.

    The above was meant only as humor.

  3. If she was a man, she would be well out of the national spotlight by now. In addition, if she really didn’t have a chance in 2012, nobody would be paying any attention to her.

    Who knows? She may be able to play all the spin into something positive.

    The latest survey I read had her approval rating with Republicans at 73%.

  4. Preparing for a Presidential run? No.

    Realized her new baby needs a Mother? No.

    Pulling a Tom Stevens “hat trick”? No.

    Payback for the Sports Complex? No.

    But what about Michael’s sister and the crystal meth connection? Could it run deep in the family?

  5. Imagine the nerve of those newspapers and other media looking into every aspect of the life of a candidate for Vice President and potential Presidential candidate. What right do they have, besides that freedom of the press in a democracy thing, to examine and write about the ethics complaints filed against a sitting governor, her official decisions and actions and the very public, and often unconventionnal and newsworthy, behavior of her family members? Da noive!

  6. “, if she really didn’t have a chance in 2012, nobody would be paying any attention to her.”

    That may be the funniest thing you’ve ever typed, Scotsman. It’s also projection and wishful thinking. If this woman ever wins a national election, it was rigged. Period. No hemming and hawing – as stolen as anything Bush stole and he stole plenty. There’s no “73%” of anything that supports Palin. She appeals only to the far right fringe of the GOP, you know – the Enemy Within, the Neocons, your “people” – which at last count was about 10-15% of the GOP, which is only about 32% of the population (according to Rassmussen) to start with and rapidly falling in numbers of self-identified Republicans. That means HER base is about 3% of the total population. That leave 38.9% as self-identified Democrats and 28.9% as unaffiliated according to this months numbers. Even if she appeals to 100% of the GOP, she’s not electable and her biggest losses, indeed the GOP’s biggest losses, have been with Independent voters.

    Your girl just stood up on stage and stabbed her career in the heart. It’s not a wise and crafty strategy. She’s running away and everyone knows it. Well, maybe she doesn’t know it, but then again denial seems to be a common thread among those who think like her. But she IS running away. There is no mistake about that. Be it from fear of investigation, unwillingness to the do the job AK elected her for out of spite/pity/scorn/selfishness/whatever over her not getting to be VP, or her just being a plain old quitter makes no difference. She may remain in politics as talking head, but her days of getting elected are over. What part of “she’s a toxic asset” don’t you guys get yet?

  7. Buddha,

    It sounds like you don’t like Gov. Palin. Am I reading you wrong?

    At least you provided me with an “impartial” view. :>)

  8. No, what I provided were statistic, Scotsman. From Rassmussen. You know, the same people the news and government use for gathering statistical data. Not a bullshit made up “73%” number in your “unbiased” attempt to float her fascist boat, sport.

  9. I can not fathom the mind of the soul that considers this woman to be leadership material for anything, much less VP or POTUS.

    This does not speak well for an Alaskan’s sense of judgment.

    She was cute when I first saw her, but then she opened her mouth. Somehow, being cute isn’t enough to satisfy me. But for some, apparently it is.

    It juts baffles me that there are actually living, breathing people who think of her with respect and admiration. Or could consider her a leader.

    I just don’t get it.

  10. I think that Pew link simply settles the idea that Republicans are about as foolish and clueless as it appears. It also explains why they are dying on the vine or being incorporated into the Demoblican Party.

    Oh, and it ain’t just Republicans that suck…

  11. May I speak for these combined media outlets when I say: BRING IT ON, PALIN!

  12. As I said above”some of the people some of the time,but not all of the people all of the time”

    “A portion of Palin’s speech that Varney didn’t show had her saying this: “Life is too short to compromise time and resources… it may be tempting and more comfortable to just keep your head down, plod along, and appease those who demand: ‘Sit down and shut up,’ but that’s the worthless, easy path; that’s a quitter’s way out. And a problem in our country today is apathy. It would be apathetic to just hunker down and “go with the flow’”. Since when is serving out a political term the “quitter’s way out?” Why are none of Palin’s fans noting that QUITTING is the quitter’s way out? What’s that saying? Winners never quit and quitters never win?”

  13. Ms. Sarah can make as many threats as she wishes. The truth is that she doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of framing a defamation claim that would withstand a motion to dismiss.

  14. Jim,

    I disagree (about nobody talking about her if she didn’t stand a chance), and for my counter argument I set forth Paris Hilton. Americans across the board love 2 things, celebrities, and watching people make fools of themselves.

    Or alternately, look at the first few shows of what ever the talent contest of your choice is.

  15. As horrifying as I find this to contemplate I don’t think that Jim is wrong in thinking she does have a chance at the nomination. By the way Buddha, I know I was the first to attack him, but in truth he has done as he says and I’m finding him an interesting read lately, with some really thoughtful stuff thrown in.

    The reason I think she has a a chance is the memory of how most of the US (and me)viewed Ronald Reagan before he became governor of California. It seemed a joke that this washed up and hokey actor, with no credentials but a canned speech he gave all over the country, paid for by our nation’s largest defense contractor GE, could aspire to the governorship of our then most populous state. His performance as Governor was awful, but his macho rhetoric had resonance with people. The thought of his overturning an incumbent President was again a seeming joke. Iran and a news media that even then treated him even-handedly thus raising his credibility, was backed by his actor’s ease and a script that made bogeyman out of unpopular minorities like Blacks and people on welfare.

    He became President and the Republican establishment rallied around him, getting shot was a boost, and made it seem like this man without a clue was really in charge. W.F. Buckley, who some now remember with a sense that he was genuine, proclaimed Reagan as a political genius after meeting him. In truth he was smart enough to follow a script, play a role and even improvise a little when called on. The Fundamentalists were sucked in that he was religious, though he barely attended church. Excellent PR allowed him to cut taxes on the rich and put in place the largest tax hike in history for the middle and working classes. He initiated the busting of the Union movement with PATCO and also his policies assisted in draining this country of its’ manufacturing base.

    His supposed greatest achievement, the destruction of the USSR was none of his making. This was a bankrupt system that maintained power via oppression and keeping its’ populace in ignorance about how poorly they were living. By the 80’s word got through that the standard of living elsewhere in the world far exceeded that of the people in the USSR. Then too their defeat in Afghanistan (a lesson we should learn from)
    brought home hundreds of thousands of demoralized troops. The people stopped believing, including Communist Party loyalists and Mikael Gorbachev, a brilliant man with a KGB background came to power realizing change was inevitable. Nevertheless,
    Republican’s worked to rewrite history and make Ronnie the hero of the piece.

    Reagan in truth was just as intellectually lazy as is Palin. He had the same narrow view of the world and having failed as an actor, when once he was a “B” movie leading man, he and his wife hungered for the spotlight again. Ms. Palin, unsuccessful beauty Queen harbors those same hungers for the spotlight. She has no ideas or vision what to do with it if she gets there, but as we saw with Reagan there will be plenty to guide and lead her should she be successful. She and he are and were the essence of the most dangerous combination’s in the world. Dumb people, who think they are smart. To Ronnie’s credit I think he was a little more self aware of this than she is. however, this is a guy who remembered his roles in war movies as if he had really been there and used the plot of a 30’s SF potboiler to give impetus to the Star Wars boondoggle of cash to unworthy defense contractors.

    Be afraid. Be Very Afraid!

  16. As horrifying as I find this to contemplate I don’t think that Jim is wrong in thinking she does have a chance at the nomination. By the way Buddha, I know I was the first to attack him, but in truth he has done as he says and I’m finding him an interesting read lately, with some really thoughtful stuff thrown in.

    Having a chance at the nomination isn’t really the point, is it? The Republican brand is a stinking, putrid, sickening mess that isn’t attractive to the majority of Americans.

    Not that the alternative is any, if at all, better.

    Funny how one can read that drivel and consider it “thoughtful”, whereas I read it and see it as total desperation for a dead entity that needs to go away forever in the bowels of neocon asswipe history.

    Let me tell you, Palin stands no chance whatsoever in becoming our next POTUS. There aren’t enough idiotic reTHUGlicans left to get her elected (yeah, she could win the Primary by the minority of freaks who consider her a “leader”). But that is a very small minority.

    The truth is that Americans would rather have the smiling, lying bastards they tend to elect, much like Barack Obama, than the smiling, lying MILF’s.

  17. To expand a tad on Gyges, think about the coverage of a probable drug death, by a washed up entertainer, drug addict and probable pedophile has led to around the clock news coverage and a funeral that will have wall to wall media coverage all day tomorrow. How quickly the media forgets that Jackson spent the last few years as the paid court jester for the Sultan of Dubai, because his records didn’t sell and he was hundreds of millions in debt. Three of his albums now top the charts and he is remembered as “the greatest entertainer in history,” His death has created a financial bonanza. Then too we see the crowds of people gather at his parent’s home, around his “star” on the sidewalk of a sleezy LA boulevard, around a hospital where he was already pronounced dead and no doubt around the Staples Center tomorrow for a funeral they can’t attend. While I wouldn’t be for it, there is a thought in my head that any person who has joined one of these crowds should never be allowed to vote.

    I wonder if the funeral is too hasty and whether his casket should have been shipped by train to DC, where he could lie in state for a week in the Capitol Rotunda and waive the rules and have him buried at Arlington, for his service to our country. Anyone who thinks it is impossible for Palin to run for, much less become President is forgetting the power of money and the powerful in this country to make all kinds of bizarre things happen.

  18. Running “for” POTUS and actually “becoming” POTUS are radically different things since the neocons tainted the Republican theme.

    Who is the Jackson fellow, anyway?

  19. “Running “for” POTUS and actually “becoming” POTUS are radically different things since the neocons tainted the Republican theme.

    Who is the Jackson fellow, anyway?”

    BuelahMan,
    From your mouth to god’s ears regarding Palin, I lack your faith, but hope you’re right and I’m wrong.

    As to this Jackson guy he could be the “greatest entertainer ever” in the minds of some deluded people.

  20. Mike,

    Well, it is apparent that I do NOT have God’s ear.

    I believe that what we once knew as Republicans is no longer.

    The hard right wing tainted it so bad that i doubt that the GOP will never be Grand again.

    What I expect is a new party, even farther right-wing to come from this. But it won;t help them.

    In reality, they are all the same anyway. Obama is as far right as Bush/McCain/Palin ever was. He is just a tad bit smarter about how he expresses it. He is the Friendly Fascist, whereas the other folks are just plain Jane Fascist dumbasses.

    Its like the Good Cop/Bad Cop scenes in Hollywood.

    No matter what, they all work for the same people. They are all fascists, its just that some have a warm smile.

  21. Van Flein stated his 4-page letter that AK Blogger Shannyn Moore was posting the rumors as “fact” – when in fact Shannyn never did that – Shannyn always stated that these are rumors (and the federal investigation rumor was one of many that have been swirling around Palin since she was mayor of Wasilla). Van Flein and Palin are treating these rumors as if they were facts. This is nothing more than a threat of a SLAPP suit – but as Shannyn has stated there is a line of lawyers out her email door who would jump at the chance to depose Sarah and Todd Palin. Palin has a history of jumping ship – either because she’s being criticized & can’t stand the heat, or because the job is no longer fun. I don’t know if she quit because of a potential scandal; I just know the woman is more egocentric than Dick Cheney and twice as loony.

  22. I don’t know if anyone has read the transcript of her farewell speech, but this is DIRECTLY (the ellipses are mine) from the official state of Alaska’s transcript:

    “…*((Gotta put First Things First))*…”

    I’m rendered speechless.

  23. Hopefully Mike knows how much I respect him and his view.

    We disagree here, but only on the edges.

  24. Mike S

    there is nothing to be afraid of. Palin will not suddenly become intellectually curious, develop a decent vocabulary, learn to read… and as long as Tina Fey is willing to put on the red suit and glasses, and just repeat the stuff Palin actually says there is no 2012 for Palin, just more embarrassment for the RNC. the speculation that there is another shoe that will drop may or may not be true, its more likely that someone in her family sat down and did the math and figured out that she could make more money having a ghost written book, maybe in really large print with lots of pictures, and have a radio show and speak at mega churches for love offerings and then she doesn’t have to lower herself to being an actual politician. being a celebrity is way more fun anyway. that elizabeth hasselbeck person cranks out a kid every year and Palin is perfect to fill in for her on The View.

  25. Sorry, wrong Palin thread, seriously though, the transcript is formatted like an e-mail by teenager explaining why they’re quitting the band.

  26. Is this how it looks and sounds like when political partys start to eat their own?

    “Sen. Cornyn booed at Capitol “tea party”
    By Andrea Lorenz | Saturday, July 4, 2009, 03:19 PM

    U.S. Sen. John Cornyn drew boos from a crowd outside the Texas Capitol this afternoon as he spoke at a “tea party” rally organized by the Texas office of Americans for Prosperity.

    Cornyn was booed at the start and close of his remarks, which assailed actions in Washington; there were no boos while he awarded a Purple Heart to a Copperas Cove resident injured in Iraq in 2006.”

  27. Mike,

    Sorry, I have to disagree. Ronnie was created in a day when such a thing a “The Studio Machine” was possible. Nothing you said about him is untrue, but it all required something more difficult to do today than his: nearly total control of information and public persona. He’d not have fared so well in the age of the Internet. Neither will Sarah. In Re The Scotsman: I’ll stipulate he’s been behaving fairly well since the shredder. I don’t intend to escalate absent cause, but by the same token I’m not going to let deliberate misrepresentations just slide. Mathematically, Palin’s done in public office. With her kind of popularity, she can carve out a nice job playing to the fringe in news-u-tainment, maybe make some money on the speech circuit helping raise money – Hell, she might want to consider getting an agent if she doesn’t already have one. That doesn’t that even if all the GOP voted for her she’d never get the popular vote and her chance of getting the electoral is slim given the tectonic shifts in previously red states and her raging unpopularity with both Independents and moderate GOPer’s (the few left anyway). There’s nothing savvy about this move of hers UNLESS she’s plaining on a talking head job. Ronnie had to overcome an image of, quite frankly, stupidity. She has to overcome an image of a self-serving quitter whose reach far exceeds her ability to perform. Even today, Ronnie’s job would have been easier.

    I may be a little light posting today. I’m battling network gremlins.

  28. Buddha writes:

    Ronnie was created in a day when such a thing a “The Studio Machine” was possible. Nothing you said about him is untrue, but it all required something more difficult to do today than his: nearly total control of information and public persona. He’d not have fared so well in the age of the Internet. Neither will Sarah.

    me: you make a valuable point. the internet and the speed with which information both good and bad travels would have make reagan unelectable. he was old and slow and that benign grand-dad thing he had going on would have just looked stupid. even “morning in america” would have seemed lame.
    reagan was uncool.

  29. I’m sorry, but the republic formerly known as the United States died on December 9th, 2000 at appoximately 2:45pm with a snickering concurrence by one Antonin Scalia.

    Article IV, VI and 12th Amendment issues notwithstanding…

    Bugliosi:

    “In yet another piece of incriminating circumstantial evidence, Scalia, in granting Bush’s application for the stay, wrote that “the issuance of the stay suggests that a majority of the Court, while not deciding the issues presented, believe that the petitioner [Bush] has a substantial probability of success.” But Antonin, why would you believe this when neither side had submitted written briefs yet (they were due the following day, Sunday, by 4 pm), nor had there even been oral arguments (set for 11 am on Monday)? It wouldn’t be because you had already made up your mind on what you were determined to do, come hell or high water, would it? Antonin, take it from an experienced prosecutor–you’re as guilty as sin. In my prosecutorial days, I’ve had some worthy opponents. You wouldn’t be one of them. Your guilt is so obvious that if I thought more of you I’d feel constrained to blush for you.”

  30. I tend to agree with those who believe that Sarah Palin does not have a bright political future. Her political career proves the limitations of physical beauty. If we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that if Gov. Palin more closely resembled someone like, oh, Eleanor Roosevelt in appearance, her lack of intellectual curiosity, her logical non-sequiturs and her general inability to be articulate and thought-provoking would have been instantly evident and most likely would have prevented her from pursuing her ambitions beyond the Wasilla mayor’s chambers. I’m not suggesting that it is fair or honorable, but the fact is that we demand less of the physically attractive. The office of governor exceeded Ms. Palin’s abilities and failed to hold her interest. The internet and ubiquitous video technology exposed her obvious shortcomings as John McCain’s running mate. I believe that she will have little or no influence by the 2012 presidential campaign.

  31. Why single out Shannyn Moore who specifically said rumors?

    Does this mean all the reporting/rumoring on Trig’s birth story (allegedly Scarah is his Grandmother) covered by the MSM and many blogs including some(palindeceptions) devoted solely to that topic are true? Why hasn’t she threatened defamation against The National Enquirer which repeatedly published reports with photos of her alleged “affair” with Todd’s former business partner?

  32. Jill,

    Although I laughed mightily, I would request that you refrain from filming my relatives. I particularly liked the Democratic celebrity spokesman, but I must say it makes me wonder where Sherman and Mr. Peabody’s political leanings lay.

  33. Must be a mistake, most of the democrats I know think and talk that way.

    That was what was so amazing to me about this site, actual left of centers that can put a sentence together and make some sense.

    It trully is amazing, most people that vote democrat live in trailer parks, public housing or are homeless. So you can imagine my bewilderment.

  34. No IS.

    None of us has to imagine your bewilderment.

    We get to see it first hand way too often to need our imaginations for that task.

  35. BIL:

    very funny.

    I will assume you do not live in a trailer park or public housing or under a bridge. Although the avatar does resemble a happy troll more than the Lord Buddha. You dont eat children do you?

  36. Mike S.,

    Thank you. I appreciate your acknowledgement of my efforts to engage in civil discussions.

    One thing our political history has shown us is that; those in power naturally attract greater public scrutiny. No political party will ever be consistently good enough to continuously satisfy the majority. In the minds of the majority, the grass will eventually be greener on the other side.

    These diametrically opposed political beliefs we call liberal and conservative, are necessary evils. They are like the gas pedal and the brakes of an automobile. We need both to operate as designed. That struggle tempers our thoughts and actions while providing a means to increase or decrease the speed at which we react to new problems (or those we have ignored for too long).

    We don’t know what the political climate will be in three years. We assume that President Obama will run for a second term. Currently, many have assumed that Gov. Palin will want to challenge him. The truth is; we don’t know what tomorrow will bring -let alone 3 years from now. -Michelle Obama may decide to run…and Barack may step aside to permit that to happen. (Although we would need to do a lot of cleanup after Hillary’s head explodes in reaction to the news.) -:>)

    I like reading the comments on this blog. Most are intelligent, well-thought opinions. Persuasive arguments provoke thought and permit me to either bolster my current position, or arrive at a different conclusion. –I’d rather explore opposing viewpoints than join a pile-on session.

    If I am to participate, I need to learn the lingo. Can someone please tell me what a Neocon is? I have looked, but have not been able to find a general consensus as to its meaning. Is the term intended to be narrowly defined? Is every conservative/Republican considered to be a Neocon? If so; why?

    While I’m at it; is there such a thing as a left-wing radical? If so; what would be the associated attributes? I think I know what a right-wing radical is. -I tried to join, but they wouldn’t accept one who is pro-contraception and anti-death penalty.

    I don’t like to paint with broad strokes. Karl Rove is a Republican, but the majority of Republicans aren’t Karl Rove. Bad apples exist on both sides of the aisle. Most people I know, regardless of their political leanings are good people, that would give you the shirt off of their back..or share their last bit of food. We do a great injustice when we lump them all together under one term.

  37. eniobob:

    that is not the sound of a party eating its own that is the sound of the beginning of a revolution. Washington has overstepped it’s bounds and the people are pissed off.

    These Tea Parties are the first stirrings of the American people. If you noticed some in the crowd were calling him a traitor, most likely for a bad vote although I dont know which way he went. If this keeps up 2010 is going to be a very bad year for incumbents.

    1776 all over again?

  38. IS,

    You keep being a joke and I’ll keep making the punchlines, Mr. Nazis Are Leftists. It’s an appropriate division of labor since my job requires skills and yours requires aspirating.

  39. Jerry er BIL:

    Just think of me as Dean Martin.

    I still believe that and have been looking for a good source that says they are not. There is nothing on the web that has convinced me otherwise. I even emailed a philosophy professor that question here is my question and what she replied:

    “is National socialism (NAZI) socialism or is it Facisim? I believe it to be socialism as it started out as the German Workers Party and Hitler kept many features intact. Is there a definitive work on this question?

    answer: “”Fascism” in general is the means of production nominally in the hands of private owners, but where nevertheless businesses are expected (in socialistic terms) to serve national interests at the direction of the government. This is increasingly the expectation and practice with business in the United States. Mussolini’s own idea, since he started it, was that Fascism was Socialism where Internationalism was replaced with Nationalism. To the Left, of course, “Fascism” is simply another name for Capitalism, as they themselves steadily promote government control of business (as we have seen lately with GM, etc.).”

    It appears to say that Socialism and Fascism are one and the same. It also speaks to my contention that the left likes to make up words for reasons of control.

  40. Jim,

    You’ve just asked for the Red Pill.

    Look into PNAC – Project for the New American Century, they, along with some “think tanks” (don’t get me started) like the American Enterprise Institute planned on invading Iraq waaaaaaayyyyy before they put their puppet Bush into office. Every signatory of the PNAC charter is a traitor along with Cheney’s Secret Energy Task Force. They are the ones protecting the Saudis from our Marines right now. They are the ones who wanted to attack a country that hadn’t attacked us – Iraq – and protect the one the did – Saudi Arabia. The Neocons are not conservative Republicans, but they hide amongst you. They are the ones who have destroyed our image abroad by pushing a torture agenda. They are the ones who have stolen the GOP from traditional conservatives. And they get the less critical of you to eat and spread their propaganda like wild. Propaganda – out right lies – like Obama isn’t a citizen, like Iraq had WMDs, like Saudi Arabia is our “ally” despite having funded and manned the 9/11 attacks, like Bush and Cheney didn’t commit major crimes while in office . . . and on and on and on.

    The Neocons are an Enemy of the United States as surely as Osama and the Saudis. They are fascists and propagandists owned outright by the Saudis and Big Oil. They are American Nazis. They are the ones who have pissed on the Constitution. They are war profiteers and theocrats working to make as much money as they can while destroying the world. They include people like Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, David Addington and John Yoo. They are CRIMINALS. The fact that they are Republicans is a secondary trait.

    That’s who the Neocons are. I’d provide you some links right now but I’m not on my systems. I know Vince and Mike have some good links as do others, and I ask them to share with you, Jim.

    He needs to know.

    BTW, I’ll tell you now, what you are going to find out? You may wish you could unlearn it afterward.

  41. Buddha,

    This is going to sound strange, but I think JT is about to post on something “our” govt. won’t like in the next day or two. I have noticed an increased traffic of trolls and people whom I’m fairly certain have a “.gov” at the end of their e-mail address showing up again more recently.

  42. Buddha,

    Thanks. I’ll look into the information tomorrow morning. I’m too exhausted to do it tonight. -A/C went out on Friday eve. -got it fixed this afternoon. However, I didn’t sleep too well last night. -Too humid.

    BTW -My grandmother -on my mothers side was born in Scotland. Her husband..my grandfather on my mother’s side..was born in Italy. Byrne came from my father’s side. O’Byrne came from Ireland, but from everything I can find…I’m an all-American Mutt.

  43. Mike A:

    “I tend to agree with those who believe that Sarah Palin does not have a bright political future.”

    ******
    I also agree that her future is murky. It’s sort of an inverse “water seeks sit own level” approach. As we know from basic physics, pressure is dependent only on depth not the shape of the container. In Palin’s case, pressure seems inversely proportional to depth (she seems perpetually under increasing pressure with her shallow depth), and it is the shape of her container that keeps her afloat!

  44. Jill,
    Buddha,

    This is going to sound strange, but I think JT is about to post on something “our” govt. won’t like in the next day or two. I have noticed an increased traffic of trolls and people whom I’m fairly certain have a “.gov” at the end of their e-mail address showing up again more recently.
    *********************************

    I do not doubt this as Psychological Warfare has been around for eons. It has been of course more specialized in the lat few years with targets. I remember reading a book in the 80 that had just been released about the probabilities of what Hitler would be doing depending on certain aspects. It was mind boggling to say the least.

    It was compromised of about 25 Psychiatrists, loons to starts with so, the end result is I do not doubt what you say.

  45. Jill,

    Agreed. That we’ve been under coordinated attack is no longer a question in my mind.

  46. Oh goody maybe I can learn something new.

    Jim Byrne:

    Neocons are the “new” conservatives. Mostly recycled leftists or liberal republicans. Like William Kristol or Fred Barnes. The compassionate conservatives like George Bush.

    Not good Goldwater conservatives. They [neocons] believe in big government as much as the libs do. The argument over the stimulus bill was a good case in point-they were arguing over the size only. Those are the Neocons.

    BIL is right in that the guys like Fiet and Wolfowitz pushed for war in Iraq. Although I think it was more to try and save Israel rather than Saudi Arabia. The ultimate goal was to destabilize Iran either directly through a 2 front war or indirectly with the Iranians smelling the tantalizing aroma of democracy wafting across the border. But Israel’s safety, in my opinion, was the goal through a democratic Iraq and Iran.

    Although once you democratize Iran you really don’t need Saudi Arabia anymore. The house of Saud will fall soon after the Mullahs in Iran.

    So while I don’t really agree with the neocons, I don’t think they are as evil as BIL believes they are. I wont vote for one again though because they are too close to the left. Compassionate conservatism has got to go, I don’t think we can handle another dose.

  47. IS: “Oh goody maybe I can learn something new.”

    Buddha: “Don’t worry! No one is concerned that you’ll learn anything IS. You haven’t so far.”

    ***********

    To the contrary, Buddha, I suspect anything IS learns–anything at all–will be quite new indeed.

  48. BIL/mespo727272:

    probably because you all haven’t had any new ideas or insights, just the same old tired leftist bravo sierra. Taxes good, higher taxes better, government good, bigger government better. Capitalism bad socialism good, communism better. All your arguments synthesized into their essence.

  49. IS,

    You need to update your routine, we’ve been down the “liberal is whatever I think is bad” road before. (5/10 on this one, you got Buddha to bite)

    By the way, do you eat cream on your oats?

  50. IndSer,
    I agree wholeheartedly with your take on the situation.Its not funny but scarey,the congressman in the south carolina video,about 4.17 into the video someone screams out”it to late go home”

    That to me was the sound of the revolt.I

  51. I find that I agree with Indentured Servant on one point. The push for war with Iraq by Feith, Wolfowitz and other neocons had nothing to do with Iraq and everything to do with Israel. Indeed, the principal foreign policy concern of the neocons is the preservation of Israel. This is appealing to Christian fundamentalists because their belief in all of the absurd end times prophecies requires the survival of Israel until Armageddon. Thus the alliance between neocons and fundamentalists. Strange bedfellows, indeed.

  52. I find that I agree with Indentured Servant on one point. The push for war with Iraq by Feith, Wolfowitz and other neocons had nothing to do with Iraq and everything to do with Israel.

    No way. “Nothing” to do with Iraq?

    We are in Afghanistan and Iraq both because of this country’s hegemony. It is dictated word for word in PNAC’s documentation.

    Israel is nothing but America’s “Ho”, doing our bidding as we direct (that is until they decide enough is enough and the Zionists finally tell us where to get off).

    The neocons will use anything and anybody to forward their world domination for energy and control.

    W said in ’98 he was going to invade Iraq. It had absolutely nothing to do with Israel, except for whatever fringe element they might profit from.

  53. Mike Appleton:

    “I find that I agree with Indentured Servant on one point. The push for war with Iraq by Feith, Wolfowitz and other neocons had nothing to do with Iraq and everything to do with Israel.”

    I wouldn’t say that was the ‘only’ reason, rather a primary one. Let’s not forget the money to be made in destruction and reconstruction as well as the vast opportunities to push policies forward with the help of fear rhetoric.

  54. “I find that I agree with Indentured Servant on one point. The push for war with Iraq by Feith, Wolfowitz and other neocons had nothing to do with Iraq and everything to do with Israel.”

    Mike A,
    This is the first post of yours that I disagree with. The NeoCons like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith, Wolfowitz, et. al.
    use Israel in their rhetoric to garner support for their policies. However, the first 3 I mentioned are in bed with the Saudi’s and the nominally Jewish part of the contingent are along for the ride as courtiers of power following those they consider their “betters.” The entire purpose of PNAC is hegemony leading to empire. My view on this is similar to:

    “We are in Afghanistan and Iraq both because of this country’s hegemony. It is dictated word for word in PNAC’s documentation. Israel is nothing but America’s “Ho”, doing our bidding as we direct (that is until they decide enough is enough and the Zionists finally tell us where to get off). The neocons will use anything and anybody to forward their world domination for energy and control.”

    Which BuelahMan posted. Just want to also tell you, BuelahMan that I respect your views too. My divergence from you politically is not about analysis, it is about what I think is the proper approach to thinking about the world, to change it. You come from a more pessimistic viewpoint than I do:

    “No matter what, they all work for the same people. They are all fascists, its just that some have a warm smile.”

    That view resonates with me because I do think our system is currently corrupt. Beyond that though I don’t believe it is about politics, per se. Politics is the symptom of the disease. The disease is the will to power in some humans that will push them to use any available method to attain it. The corollary is that humanity is divided up between people who want to follow, rather than think for themselves, which in my estimation could run from 50% to 70% of the population. They are wired to follow the leaders in anything they due be it
    politically, sociologically, economically, or even down to such mundane things as entertainment, fashion, drink and food.

    The other 50% to 30% are people who follow their own sense of the world and will do so despite being in the minority on a given issue. This to me this split is the vestige of the needs of earliest human survival. Think of how the Great Apes
    organize their society.

    My diversion from Beulahman is that I think we must act as if we are free and the Constitution is still in effect, in order to prevent further erosion and tyranny and perhaps make some positive gains in the right direction. To me, to not do so breeds anger, depression and nihilism. none of which ever have led to positive outcomes.

  55. To all those I respect on this site who have assured me that Sarah Palin can’t wind up as President some day, I sincerely hope you are correct and that I’m being paranoid. My fear stems from along life where so many bad and bizarre things that people believed could never happen did happen and the fact that this stupid bimbo (I realize the possible sexism inherent in this but she is the one who stresses her womanhood rather than her credentials or thoughts)continues to draw attention and has a small but rabid group of followers. Look up the comments of
    German pundits about Adolph Hitler in the 1920’s.

  56. We find ourselves (this once great nation) being ruled by an Elitist class of folks who have embraced the corporate take over of this country.

    We went from the horrors of the evil Fascism that the neocons were pursuing to the “Friendly Fascism” that is the hallmark of Mr Smiles, Barack Obama.

    Sure, I have a pessimistic view. In light of all the evidence that supports my view of things in the world and this nation, I see no other way to go.

    It is beyond hope, Mike. I am not, at all, optimistic about where this country is headed and the idiots who are going along, as if led by the pied piper.

    I can’t help but be pessimistic when my fellow citizens are too damned stupid to realize what they are doing to ruin my world by their complacency and lackadaisical attitude.

    We should all be pissed.

  57. Bman,

    “I can’t help but be pessimistic when my fellow citizens are too damned stupid to realize what they are doing to ruin my world by their complacency and lackadaisical attitude.

    We should all be pissed.”

    I submit that if 40% of the population paid as much attention to their government as they should, Washington and K St. would be burned to the ground by now. Some of us are pissed, Bman. Just not enough us.

  58. BIS,

    Sorry for the seeming broad stroke of my brush.

    I should have said, present company (and the few sites I frequent) excluded.

    Not EVERYONE is a dumbass. Just most of us.

  59. I think this is where Jeff Sharlet’s book, “The Family” is useful in reconciling a very strange situation. It seems to explain why many of the US’s most powerful people consistently engage with tyrannical and murderous “leaders” of many nations (and are themselves tyrannical and murderous). They do so while claiming their absolute right as overlords of the world using any means necessary (and I’m not exaggerating). In many ways, Sara’s description of the presidency as a protection racket from prosecution for misdeeds does not show her stupidity, rather it shows her understanding of what the presidency has actually become.

    When our govt. greenlights Israel on bombimg Iran, Iranians correctly understand that we are working hand in glove. This would not be a mission Israel could accomplish without the US’s “help”. On the other hand we send many of our signals intelligence to be logged, stored and flagged through Israel. Israel did and still is helping us torture detainees. (I know many people on this blog do not believe we torture under Obama. Harper’s magazine has a well written article on this very topic. It is well documented. We are still torturing.) Of course, we ask/ed Egypt and Jordon for their help in this matter as well.

    We have armed Saudi Arabia to the teeth. We have made a way for western oil companies (lord make a way, lord make a way as Sara’s preacher would say!) to get those sought after no-bid contracts in Iraq. Afghanistan makes a nice energy route for the US.

    All of this is ordained by god in just the same way that Sara’s followers believe her path to power is the work of god. I don’t think the Moose Queen is so far out from our current leaders. They all believe god has put them in place to do “his” will and that means, whatever they do is a priori good. This scares me a lot.

  60. ”Fascism” in general is the means of production nominally in the hands of private owners, but where nevertheless businesses are expected (in socialistic terms) to serve national interests at the direction of the government. This is increasingly the expectation and practice with business in the United States.’

    IS,
    I concede you are not a troll because you at least engage in the back and forth of discussions and sometime evince views that differ from expectations and show openness of thought. When it come to Fascism though you’re wrong.

    In a socialistic economy all production is in the hands of the people (i.e. State). The economy is totally controlled and all production goals are set across the board. The theory though is that the workers have a democratic input into the setting of goals and their conditions of employment. I hold no brief for a system like this because I think it is unworkable, but it appears that I’m much more knowledgeable about this theory than you are and I have had it explained to me by real life socialists.

    In a Fascist economy private industry and the State work hand in hand in a symbiotic relationship that is win=win for both sides. The State gets the support of private industry for its’ policies and private industry gets support from the State
    to increase its profitability. The State allows and abets private industry’s exploitation of its’ workers and in effect makes them serfs to the Barons of commerce. In the Nazi reign for instance, slave labor was cheerfully supplied for the use of industry. The socialism part of NAZIism was a means of fooling the masses of German workers and stealing the thunder of the real socialist and communist party’s there that had
    followings equal to the NAZI’s.

    Finally, where you do verge on close mindedness is in your characterizations such as:

    “To the Left, of course, “Fascism” is simply another name for Capitalism, as they themselves steadily promote government control of business (as we have seen lately with GM, etc.).”

    In many instances you don’t discuss issues, you use straw men to malign different viewpoints and take them as fact. What is illogical in this is that your own positions, which I think I could fairly characterize as right wing, discuss nuance of differences with your fellow right wingers. You differentiate between “compassionate conservatives,” Neocons and Goldwater conservatives, for instance. The left has the same nuances and as those you imply discussing the right, these nuances lead to substantial differences in policy.

    Left=Big Government
    Right=small Government

    These are slogans, not representations of the totality of philosophy’s.

  61. “While I’m at it; is there such a thing as a left-wing radical? If so; what would be the associated attributes? I think I know what a right-wing radical is. -I tried to join, but they wouldn’t accept one who is pro-contraception and anti-death penalty.”

    Jim,
    your first question has already been answered by Buddha and even IS. PNAC is the only answer to who are the Neocons.

    As to your question above the answer is yes, most definitely.
    In general a radical is one who believes in overthrowing the established order. Those in the Left Wing side of the equation
    are for instance the Communists, of which there are different difvisions such as the Stalinists, Trotskyites, Maoists and new communism theories since the fall of the USSR, which try to return to original Marxist doctrine. Less far left are the socialists who also have their many divisions, that run across a gamut of the Lefts’ political spectrum. To me the broad stroke that differentiates the “Radical” from the moderate, in both Communism, Socialism and Marxism is the extent that in the radical people are expected to adhere to the party line, or are then considered traitors and dare I say it liberals and progressives. Neither of which label refers to Communists or Socialists. These traitors are actually despised more than the right wing, since they compete for the same base of people.

    In other posts I’ve written about being a member of the most Left Wing Labor Union in the country in the late 60’s and early 70’s. At first these groups tried to recruit me, but I thought them wrong and silly, and still do. When the couldn’t recruit me they turned against me. when I ran for President of that Union in 1970 I was considered the conservative candidate and was called epithets like “Running Dog of Capitalism.” While I didn’t become President I defeated the radical party, Trotskyites, that were my chief opponents even though they had better organization and resources. Those years taught me much about the political spectrum and about how a healthy iconoclasm/pragmatism is more valuable than any political doctrine.

    In your example above you show that you have experienced similar party line thinking on the right, since you are anti death penalty and pro-contraception. Theirony is that the radicals on either side of the political spectrum have more in common with each other in their dogmatism and ultimately
    totalitarian beliefs, then they do with others sharing either the right or left part of the political spectrum with them. I
    Think that says it all about any dogma and the need to get beyond it to compromise on how to run the best possible society for all of the people.

  62. Many thanks to all who provided me with the requested information.

    My original understanding of the term “Neocon” was close to what was provided by IS (Ind. Serv.) The information provided by Buddha provided additional clarity.

    I never trusted Dick Cheney. He was part of the Nixon “whatever we can get away with must be OK” crowd. I don’t think G.W. Bush was much more than a puppet. I think G.W. was a decent guy that was easily manipulated by Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the rest.

    I’m really starting to wonder (I’m closer to convinced) if both sides (Democrats and Republicans) are being manipulated by a small group. The evidence sure does point in that direction.

    Buddha’s statement about Palin included “the Enemy Within, the Neocons, your “people”” -My people? -Not my people. My people are just like you and I. My people want a representative republic…Just like your people.

    “Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle
    We need to get angry, but we need to start getting angry with the right person(s).
    Political differences should inspire communication. Anger provides separation. –I want to be separated from those that anger me. Corrupt prosecutors anger me. –I hope they anger you too. The same can be said of a government that operates outside of our Constitution.

    I think we need to be more careful about the application of terms. If we don’t…the real NeoCons (or whatever we call them) will win. -If the good people of this country continue to fight about petty BS…they win…and it’s our fault. We permitted it to happen. The powers in charge have successfully divided this country. Divided we will fall. We’re already heading in that direction.

    I don’t want a Supreme Court that is controlled by outside -“hidden” forces. I don’t want a government that operates behind closed doors. I want presidents to be held to their campaign promises. And I want all branches of government to recognize the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. -This, I believe, is what is desired by Democrats and Republicans, Libertarians and Independents.

  63. I almost forgot: I was going to address torture.

    We can debate all day about whether or not torture works. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to muster enough volunteers to permit us arrive at a verifiable conclusion. (I don’t like to rely on people that have something to gain by declaring it does or doesn’t.) -Even if it did work..I wouldn’t want my enemy to know that.

    One thing is for certain. -Torture must never be sanctioned by our government. -Not now…not ever. If you are caught torturing someone; you must be prosecuted.

  64. I wouldn’t get stuck on the neocons when we have neoliberals in charge now.

    Not a difference between the two, really. The end game is all the same. Domination of the world’s energy resources and the inhabitants.

    Fascism doesn’t care what political end of the spectrum you claim. That is just sheople food.

    They use these little wedges to divide us… keep us fighting over bullshit that matters little in the scheme of their atrocious and murderous criminal activities.

    Remember, Barack Obama is protecting the previous bastards. He, now, is complicit and guilty, as if he called the shots.

    In many ways, he and his crew are worse than the last. At least with them they were in your face about what was going on. The new regime just smiles, tells us one thing and immediately does the opposite.

    They all suck.

  65. How powerful is this small group we call Neocons?

    In the April 30, 2009 issue of Nature, a virologist was quoted as saying,“Where the hell it got all these genes from we don’t know.” Extensive analysis of the virus found that it contained the original 1918 H1N1 flu virus, the avian flu virus (bird flu), and two new H3N2 virus genes from Eurasia. Debate continues over the possibility that swine flu is a genetically engineered virus.
    http://www.newsmax.com/health/vaccine_swine_flu/2009/07/07/232717.html

    How do you prevent a revolution? -Give them something more important to worry about. It must be something that affects the strong more than the weak.

  66. Jim,

    Now you know why I gave you the hammer for your tactic. Now that you know who and what they are, maybe you’ll think a bit harder and ask more questions before towing not just their line, but any party line. Political parties are for one thing only: providing branding for those too stupid or too tired to filter through all the bullshit coming out of Washington for themselves. The ONLY reason I have a party affiliation is KS has closed primaries (also a load of gerrymandering crap). If you’re paying attention, there’s plenty of outrage due both parties, it’s just unfortunate that the criminals in the GOP took it to another level. Cheney and his crew seriously need to hung from the neck until dead. You got a little of that Neocon propaganda on you as evidenced by your initial word choices and tactics (a common affliction for traditional conservative Republicans as most of the Neocon poison has been pointed directly at you), but now that you are aware of it, it should be easier to avoid. See, you thought we progressive are the enemy, when the Neocons have been standing behind you laughing their asses off as they picked your pockets and coopted national security for their private profits in addition to committing the outrage of protecting those who DID attack us on 9/11, their business partners the Saudis. You aren’t the first conservative Republican coming in here looking to “kick some liberal butt” only to get a rude awakening to who really wanted to harm them. It was indeed “your own” people who sold you out Jim. The question you have to ask yourself is what are you going to do about it? Reclaim your party? Start a new one? Start pushing for criminal prosecution? Or let evil happen by doing nothing?

    I made my decision when I swore to uphold the Constitution.

    Screw the Neocons and anyone who backs them. Any one of the those treasonous bastards would be most unfortunate to encounter me in a dark alley or anyplace else for that matter. I am a son of Jefferson and they tread upon me and my rights at their risk.

  67. Mike S., I appreciate your comments, but I do not believe that Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz or Elliott Abrams regard George Bush and Dick Cheney as their “betters.” Indeed, my opinion is that their primary foreign policy concern is Israel’s security, and they have consistently derided diplomatic efforts in favor of military solutions in the Middle East. I also believe that they view themselves as smarter than Bush and Cheney (which is certainly true at least with regard to Bush) and determined that the latter’s desire to invade Iraq played very nicely into their views. Abrams has been outspoken in his criticism of Pres. Obama and would like nothing more than U.S. military intervention in Iran.

    These folks represent the intellectual elite of the neocons and I perceive them as dangerous. They will fight tooth and toenail to prevent any Palestinian resolution which involves the creation of a separate state, even though I think it is pretty clear that no other resolution is viable, meaning in accord with the realities. They have adopted a siege mentality that convinces them that Israel can never be secure unless the entire Middle East is subordinated to our will, and that the U.S., as Israel’s strongest ally, must come to recognize that aggressive action is the only solution, meaning war.

    Ironically, these views find encouragement among Christian fundamentalists, who are no friends of Jews but who favor any actions which they believe will hasten the fulfillment of end times prophecies. It was for this reason that Bush had no difficulty in building support among evangelical conservatives for his war policies.

    In sum, I do not believe that either AIPAC or the Christian right have this country’s best interests in mind in their attitudes toward the Middle East. I think that Bush and Cheney were useful tools in promoting their ideology. And I think that the almost visceral hatred expressed toward the Obama administration by these forces is expressive of a fear that Israel will be abandoned.

  68. Mike Appleton:

    I think basically you are correct but a 2 state solution could have been achieved years ago had the Palestinians played the martyrs. the nightly news would have been awash in Palestinian blood and they would have had a state many years ago.

    the leadership of the Palestinians are as intractable in their desire for the destruction of Israel as the Neocons are in their desire for Israels continuation. 2 religious views fighting for supremacy. It has not turned out well for either.

    However Israel is a democracy and has respect for the human rights of her citizens, this alone is a reason to support her continued existence. I don’t see this philosophy as detrimental to American interests. Although sometimes I wonder who is playing whom.

  69. “Mike S., I appreciate your comments, but I do not believe that Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz or Elliott Abrams regard George Bush and Dick Cheney as their “betters.” Indeed, my opinion is that their primary foreign policy concern is Israel’s security, and they have consistently derided diplomatic efforts in favor of military solutions in the Middle East. I also believe that they view themselves as smarter than Bush and Cheney (which is certainly true at least with regard to Bush) and determined that the latter’s desire to invade Iraq played very nicely into their views.”

    Mike,
    You and I will just have to keep disagreeing on this. My contempt for people like Feith, Wolfowitz, Perle and Abrams has everything to do with the fact that they see themselves as the “intellectuals” of the NeoCon Movement, but play the toadies to those they perceive as the Aristocrats of the movement. This is just like Kissinger and Nixon. Kissinger of course considered himself much smarter than Dick Nixon, yet kissed Nixon’s behind shamelessly to receive any crumbs of power dropped from the “big guys” table. Before Nixon, he was owned by his former student Nelson Rockefeller, who bought him (literally) for $600,000.

    This has always been the way with many “intellectuals” who in past history were the willing servants of those they perceive as powerful, even though they believed themselves smarter than their masters. Secondly, while all of the four I mentioned above are nominally Jewish don’t be fooled by that fact. Jews, even smart ones, are no more immune to self deception and self justification, than any other people. While they might convince themselves that they are aiding Israel in the process of establishing American hegemony, the end result is the power and the money accruing to their masters and dribbled down to them. Nixon, for instance was personally, outspokenly anti-Jewish and yet Kissinger fawned over him. These men are the equivalent of “courtiers” in the courts of medieval kings. They are pseudo-intellectuals in the service of their own egos.

    “They have adopted a siege mentality that convinces them that Israel can never be secure unless the entire Middle East is subordinated to our will, and that the U.S., as Israel’s strongest ally”

    That to me is somewhat the cart before the horse. The object is the imposition of American hegemony in the ME and one of their justifications for it is supposed Israeli security. This subtlety means a great deal. The Bush Family has a three generation history of being anti-Jewish and at the same time being vassals of Saudi Arabia. The Reagan Administration with
    GHW Bush, Schultz and Weinberger in charge were no friends of Israel. Nixon I’ve already mentioned. Go back then to Eisenhower, with the anti-Jewish Dulles brothers in charge of the State Department and the CIA. Kennedy was around for too short a time to know his feelings, LBJ had close Jewish advisors but was also in thrall to Brown and Root, Halliburton’s predecessor, Carter and Clinton seemed even handed. The myth of America’s closest ally though is just that. America’s closest ME ally is and has been the Saudi’s and they are no friends of Israel.

    “Ironically, these views find encouragement among Christian fundamentalists, who are no friends of Jews but who favor any actions which they believe will hasten the fulfillment of end times prophecies.”

    Right on the money here and I find it hard to consider allies any group that believes i’m going to die in a world conflagration and my soul damned to an eternal hell.

    “In sum, I do not believe that either AIPAC or the Christian right have this country’s best interests in mind in their attitudes toward the Middle East.”

    As a Jew and a lifelong supporter of Israel I have always hated AIPAC. It is run and has always been run by very rich Jewish Republicans, who while seemingly wielding power actually were the tools of Republican Empire building. The
    AIPAC leaders are also like courtiers trying to vie for recognition by those they perceive as royalty. Their policies
    for Israel have always been uniformly catastrophic and their interests are mixed in with their own wealth and maintaining it. People always talk about the “smart Jews” and we have had our share of intellects. However, one can be quite intelligent and through lack of self awareness, self deception and the human ability to justify ones’ actions, do the stupidest things.

    We agree that a two state solution is the only viable option and I think on many things regarding Israel our positions are
    not antipathetic. The big difference is you see the US as being the main supporter of Israeli interests, while I see it as Israel’s keeper, trying to maintain a status quo that is beneficial to the Saudi’s and to the Oil Interests. In my view, perhaps if the US would butt out a little bit, the people living in the ME, including Israel, could finally attain peace. With the US backing, people like Netanyahu get into power and stupidly (he is a truly stupid man)do the bidding of the Saudi’s.

  70. Коллеги , посоветуйте , кто знает или сталкивался.

    Хочу купить украшение с бриллиантом массой от карата, но осознаю, что это стоит безумных денег и мне не по карману.

    Но слышала , что существуют облагороженные бриллианты, которые ничем не отличаются от обычных, но стоят дешевле в

    два раза.

    Кто-нибудь вообще держал такие в руках, они правда прекрасны ?

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