There is an interesting entanglement case filed in Atlanta, Georgia where Rabbi Shalom Lewis has challenged Georgia’s Kosher Food Labeling Act (OCGA Sec. 26-2-330 ff.) on the ground that it codifies the definition of kosher by the orthodox rabbis.
The state defines kosher food as “food prepared under and of products sanctioned by the orthodox Hebrew religious rules and requirements.” Rabbi Lewis insists that this ignores other Jewish sects, including his conservative teachings, and how they defined the term in violation of the establishment clause.
Here is the entirety of the provision:
26-2-330.
As used in this article, the term:
(1) ‘Food’ means any meat, meat preparation, articles of food, or food products, either raw or prepared for human consumption, and whether to be consumed on the premises where prepared or sold or whether to be taken elsewhere for consumption.
(2) ‘Kosher food’ means food prepared under and of products sanctioned by the orthodox Hebrew religious rules and requirements and includes foods prepared for the festival of Passover and termed as ‘Kosher for Passover.’
(3) ‘Person’ means any hotel, inn, delicatessen, grocery, butcher shop, restaurant keeper, or any individual, firm, or corporation operating a boarding house, eating house, lunchroom business, or catering business.
The lawsuit raises a fascinating question. The government is essentially supporting one group’s interpretation of a religious tradition. It is not clear why the government should not leave such questions to the individual buyer and remain neutral on such religious questions. Customers can then look for their own certification of kosher from Orthodox or Conservative groups. We have already seen that customers are more than able to shutdown businesses that lack such acceptance, here.
This is a debate that has also raged in Israel, here.
Here is a copy of the complaint: lewis_v_perdue_complaint
I can see what the Rabbine has to say. How come he did not have a better lobbyist? It just amount to who is certifying and not, which is important for some folks. I presume that this is a real issue. Mike S, you up yet? Your name has now been used on two front.
This is an ongoing battle within Judaism. I am personally a Conservative Jew and so my sympathies lie with the Rabbi. JT has it correct when he says that this should be left to the individual consumer. Part of the issue deals with power and the need for certain Orthodox Jews, usually real fundamentalists, to de-legitimize those who don’t follow their way of being. The mistake in the legislation was using the term “Orthodox” rules,
rather than the correct term “Halachic.” This refers to the Jewish Law, and part of that is the determination of whether or not a food is kosher. By using “Orthodox” you have the State sanctioning an interpretation that only the Orthodox Jews correctly interpret Jewish Law and that shouldn’t be. It is especially galling to Conservative Jews, who are just as capable of correctly following and interpreting the law.
Mike… in addition each kosher certifying organization has its own little mark or “hecksher” printed on food labels so that each sect can decide if one hecksher is good enough for them or not.
in the end, this is, as you stated, not only an internal squabble, but an eternal one. it is been going on since humans put flame to food and will most likely continue until the end of time. that said the kosher food products industry has grown into a huge billion dollar one in the past 15 years with all sorts of foods and spices being declared kosher when they never before were. think kosher cheeseburgers, pepperoni pizza, toothpaste. and this industry is even bigger during passover with kosher for passover breakfast cereal and bagels and brownie mix. personally, I don’t get it.
i think that it misses the whole point. if someone sees an orthodox person eating a cheeseburger even if the “meat” is soy or the burger is real but the cheese is plastic, then the concept of “marit ayin” or “eyes of the community” kicks in and the food is considered traif or non-kosher.
Mike S and GWSLM,
Would you not agree that it is more in who’s going to get the money for the approval, certification than it is with staying Kosher?
I agree with GWSLM is that it is a paradox Cheeseburger’s being classified. By definition, it just can be so, say it ain’t so Joe.
AY writes: Would you not agree that it is more in who’s going to get the money for the approval, certification than it is with staying Kosher?
I agree with GWSLM is that it is a paradox Cheeseburger’s being classified. By definition, it just can be so, say it ain’t so Joe.
To me this is a racket. But to observant Jews this is important stuff. The move toward orthodoxy in the past 15 years created a market for foods that resemble what Jews ate before they became strictly observant. in other words, why suffer?
it is more than who approves of which manufacturer of food…. the whole prep to packaging has to be supervised by a rabbi. the machines used have to be cleaned in between runs of kosher/not kosher and sometimes if the food factory uses certain ingredients it can never be approved by certain sects.
in the end, it is, and ought to be up to the people who want/need food to be prepared according to their standards and no one else.
and yes. there are kosher cheeseburgers. my grandparents are rolling in their graves and during the time I kept kosher i never would have eaten one if Moses himself said it was okay.
GWMommy:
“in the end, it is, and ought to be up to the people who want/need food to be prepared according to their standards and no one else.”
So food is okay but every other aspect of ones life should be dictated by Washington?
IS writes: in the end, it is, and ought to be up to the people who want/need food to be prepared according to their standards and no one else.”
So food is okay but every other aspect of ones life should be dictated by Washington?
oh grow up.
puhleeze.
GWLSM believes that people should be allowed to purchase food prepared in a manner that they alone determine… “according to their standards and no one else.”
Can we do away with the FDA factory food inspectors?
Can we do away with government-mandated nutrition labels?
Should kosher trans-fats be exempted from regulation in Manhattan?
Should I be allowed to buy a car manufactured to my standards and no one else? What about vitamins? Pharmaceuticals? Clothing? Houses? Cosmetics? Toilets? Toys? Paint?
Anarchist utopia.
Puzzling writes: GWLSM believes that people should be allowed to purchase food prepared in a manner that they alone determine… “according to their standards and no one else.”
Can we do away with the FDA factory food inspectors?
Can we do away with government-mandated nutrition labels?
Should kosher trans-fats be exempted from regulation in Manhattan?
Should I be allowed to buy a car manufactured to my standards and no one else? What about vitamins? Pharmaceuticals? Clothing? Houses? Cosmetics? Toilets? Toys? Paint?
Anarchist utopia.
ms: which would be interesting if that was what I wrote. Where the laws of kashruth apply, they are always in addition to the usual and customary regulations by FDA and have all the normal labels that non-kosher foods have. what kosher food has is more regulation by a rabbinic board, not less because rabbis certify its contents and manner of preparation.
do this: go to you favorite grocery store and find the section with jewish foods. check out the labels. you may see in addition to all other labeling a circle with an O and a U. perhaps other symbols you dont recognize.
don’t want to eat jewish foods? you don’t have to. no one is proposing that you keep kosher or that you schmear schmaltz on your rye bread.
GWLSM,
When starting college I lived in an on-campus apartment for a few years with four Conservative Jewish roommates who kept kosher. I followed the handling rules for fleishik, milchik, and identifying kosher food, and so forth. One notable benefit for these 19 year old college undergraduates was the exemption allowing them to purchase kosher wines from area Jewish supermarkets, which they did … religiously.
To my earlier comment, I thought you were making a broader point than perhaps you intended. Another way to look at this question is to ask what happens when religious protocol conflicts with government regulation:
Should children of Christian Scientists be required to get all their vaccinations before attending public school? Will this change during a major outbreak of some highly communicable and lethal disease for which a vaccine exists? What risk level is acceptable?
Should government allow infant boys to be put at risk of contracting herpes during the metzitzah performed by some Orthodox Jews?
puzzling writes: To my earlier comment, I thought you were making a broader point than perhaps you intended. Another way to look at this question is to ask what happens when religious protocol conflicts with government regulation:
Should children of Christian Scientists be required to get all their vaccinations before attending public school? Will this change during a major outbreak of some highly communicable and lethal disease for which a vaccine exists? What risk level is acceptable?
Should government allow infant boys to be put at risk of contracting herpes during the metzitzah performed by some Orthodox Jews?
okay. its like this. observant jews are bound to live with the laws and regulations of the country in which they reside. there really are not too many places where this is a conflict for observant jews. I can’t speak to how folks from other religious backgrounds balance this although I do know that certain LDS, the fundamentalists on compounds, flaunt US laws and statues with impunity, calling their activities “bleeding the beast”
I know lots of people who have chosen not to vaccinate their kids and personally I think that this is stupid. polio is making a comeback. whooping cough is not so uncommon anymore. I’ve had measles and mumps and rubella and none of it was a picnic. I remember polio. kids died from measles and polio when I was little. no one knew what caused polio.
one mom on our block thought you could get it from running through the sprinklers on hot days.
observant jews who keep kosher and who keep other laws do not place the community or the larger world at risk. kids don’t die because their parents check labels for a particular standard of food preparation and ingredients.
we’ve already discussed the habit of a few orthodox mohels who perform metzizahin ultra orthodox communities. I think we found out that there is a very small percentage of infants who contract diseases from this. personally, if I had sons they would have been circumcised by a physician with a rabbi in attendance.
I also know people who have chosen to homeschool and I think that this is a pretty stupid choice also, but one that they are allowed to make.
should we have laws that stop people from being stupid?
GWLSM,
I’m well aware of the varied Hecksher issues, but felt it too complex for the rest. My son-in-law is trained as a Rabbi, but didn’t take smicha when he decided to marry. His wife, my daughter has studied at Yeshiva in Israel. They are “Conservadox,” in observance, the variance being both are dedicated to a feminist viewpoint. I actually learn much more from them, than they learn from me. Just to take care of the “inside Jewish” stuff. As for the ersatz cheeseburger thing, that kind of stuff I don’t get. There is a lot in being a vegetarian that I respect and one daughter is a vegan. Why though, with so many wonderful vegetarian main dishes, people eat things like Tofurkey is beyond me?
“So food is okay but every other aspect of ones life should be dictated by Washington?”
IS
Given the discussion I think you lapsed into what is for you an uncharacteristic non sequitur.
“Would you not agree that it is more in who’s going to get the money for the approval, certification than it is with staying Kosher?”
AY,
Money is no doubt a factor, but power is I think the more important issue and it relates internally to the Jewish Community, where various factions vie for dominance. Think the internecine battles of all Christian denominations. What is hard for the non-Jew to understand is that Judaism for the observant is a complete way of life. Keeping Kosher consists of adhering to a set of behavioral standards and laws, that order ones’ life. I grew up in a Kosher home and for years my wife and I maintained a Kosher home for our daughters benefit. It takes effort, but there can also be a comforting familiarity to it. If one loves pork, Porterhouse steaks, cheeseburgers and dairy with meat it could be a problem. It’s
also a problem if you live in an area of the country where there are few Jews, so getting the wherewithal’s are more difficult. However, the variety and tastiness of food that is Kosher presents few difficulties to the believer and imposes no hardships on non-Jews.
“Should I be allowed to buy a car manufactured to my standards and no one else? What about vitamins? Pharmaceuticals? Clothing? Houses? Cosmetics? Toilets? Toys? Paint?”
Puzzling,
You missed the point. Kosher food adheres to all governmental standards, plush their own rigid standards. It is why Kosher hot dogs contain less adulterants. As for that circumcision thing again, it was established that that was a 2005 case and the Mohel (circumciser) did not have herpes. Also there have been rulings ending the practice except for certain sects.
Mike Spindell:
I was responding to GWLSM’s apparent regard for government control of just about everything.
Personally I see no problem with Kosher, because as far as my knowledge of it goes, it appears to be far stricter than USDA rules and regulations.
And I dearly love a Hebrew National with mustard and relish.
I can’t wait for the Pork Hebrew National Hotdog, with Chili-Cheese-Jalapenos-Onions-German Mustard on a Kaiser Roll, to be certified Kosher.
Maybe I presumed this but this is a State Rights issue. If you will noticed it has been filed under the FLAct under Georgia State law.
That hotdog doesn’t sound very appealing. A Kosher restaurant in the West Village serves three kinds of falafel: red, green and harissa. The restaurant is called Taim. The falafel is as cheap as a hotdog.
MIke S writes: GWLSM,
I’m well aware of the varied Hecksher issues, but felt it too complex for the rest.
me: I knew that you knew this but decided to give the explanation a whirl anyway
MIke: My son-in-law is trained as a Rabbi, but didn’t take smicha when he decided to marry. His wife, my daughter has studied at Yeshiva in Israel. They are “Conservadox,” in observance, the variance being both are dedicated to a feminist viewpoint. I actually learn much more from them, than they learn from me. Just to take care of the “inside Jewish” stuff. As for the ersatz cheeseburger thing, that kind of stuff I don’t get. There is a lot in being a vegetarian that I respect and one daughter is a vegan. Why though, with so many wonderful vegetarian main dishes, people eat things like Tofurkey is beyond me?
me: we are from a generation that truly knew what it meant to spend 8 days eating “the bread of affliction” and managed to survive many decades of passover without pesachdik bagels and brownies and cheerios (which all taste pretty awful) I don’t get eating a poor substitute for the real thing and if one can’t live without pepperoni pizza than maybe they ought not to keep kosher.
“Would you not agree that it is more in who’s going to get the money for the approval, certification than it is with staying Kosher?”
Mike: Keeping Kosher consists of adhering to a set of behavioral standards and laws, that order ones’ life. I grew up in a Kosher home and for years my wife and I maintained a Kosher home for our daughters benefit. It takes effort, but there can also be a comforting familiarity to it. If one loves pork, Porterhouse steaks, cheeseburgers and dairy with meat it could be a problem. It’s
also a problem if you live in an area of the country where there are few Jews, so getting the wherewithal’s are more difficult. However, the variety and tastiness of food that is Kosher presents few difficulties to the believer and imposes no hardships on non-Jews.
me: the observant jewish lifestyle is about what we eat, what we wear, what we say and what we do. Kashruth is only one of the 613 mitzvot, as you know. it is not more or less important than any of the others but it does get the most attention because we do eat more than once, everyday. during the time in my life when I was most observant I lived in a place with very few jews. we had no access to kosher meat other than empire frozen chicken and if you travelled a bit by car, fresh kosher chicken which is fine because I never developed a taste for other kosher meats. it is possible to keep kosher and do it without lots of fuss. btw, I am not observant at all, in any way, now, and still eat only kosher chicken.
Puzzling,
On the vaccine issue, herd immunity would take care of religious nuts, the problem is the people who think that vaccines can cause autism.
IS,
Still trolling I see. You’re out of practice.
Gyges:
What can I say. I am sorry if I dissapointed.
Autism is way over diagnosed by the medical profession. More likely the cause is the medical profession’s over diagnosis.
IS writes: Autism is way over diagnosed by the medical profession. More likely the cause is the medical profession’s over diagnosis.
I hope you have an autistic kid someday.
I have one.
you should know what I know.
gwlsm:
I am sorry to hear that. I certainly understand the day to day concerns of a parent with a child with special needs and you are to be commended for your efforts in being the childs advocate and care provider.
I was responding to Gyges and his thoughts about vaccinations as the cause of autism. I have a feeling that there are many different “forms” or levels or severity for children diagnosed with autism, some may not even have autism but other issues that mimic or present as autism. Thus my comment as to my thought that some autism cases may not be autism at all but something entirely different.
I have learned from protracted exposure to the medical profession that they are not the gods they (at least some of them) pretend to be or the face they put on for the general public. They are human with the same limitations as the rest of us. The good ones know this.
IS,
I have a good friend who has a son diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome, a form of autism. I’ve discussed him with Mike S before.
I second GWLSMom’s sentiments.
“Examining the increased incidence of autism”
Autism rates have been rising steadily over the past two decades, causing much concern. Now a study in Epidemiology rules out diagnosis criteria and early diagnosis as possible reasons for that increase.
By Jonathan M. Gitlin | Last updated January 14, 2009 4:11 PM CT
Rates of autism, a developmental disorder that affects communication and social skills, are on the rise. Earlier in the 20th century, the incidence of the disorder was around four or five cases per 10,000 children; currently, it’s more than an order of magnitude greater, being closer to 80 per 10,000. This precipitous rise is obviously quite worrisome, more so since we’re no closer to knowing the reason for the increase.”
Read the rest of that article here:
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/01/examining-the-increased-incidence-of-autism.ars
It references epidemiology that addresses misdiagnoses issue.
It’s a real problem, believe it or not. And until you’ve met the face of autism for yourself, I’m thinking that orifice from which you are speaking was not originally designed for that task. It’s an interesting party trick sure, but that’s about it. Whatever is causing increased rates of autism, it’s a real observable growth. Thee only reason you’d think it isn’t an issue is you simply don’t have any exposure.
Give an hour of your time volunteering for an autism support group.
You’ll realize your mistake soon enough. It won’t take the entire hour if you have a soul.
Meet some of the people. Read the numbers.
Then respond, preferably thoughtfully, with your mouth.
For now you know not that of which you speak.
Buddha is Laughing:
I was not trying to make light of autism. We have friends that may have a son with Asbergers as well. He is functional, is highly intelligent as far as math and music goes but does have some issues. They do not have a diagnosis as yet. But some of the behaviour can be described as ADD and so I am wondering if some cases of autism are severe forms of other diesease processes and are lumped into the autism category for lack of a better diagnosis or because of lack of experience on the part of the doctor(s).
the brain is still a mystery for the most part and we are only beginning to unlock its complexities and subtleties.
IS writes:
I am sorry to hear that. I certainly understand the day to day concerns of a parent with a child with special needs and you are to be commended for your efforts in being the childs advocate and care provider.
me: you are not sorry so don’t pretend you are. you’ve called me just about every name short of bitch and insulted me in myriad ways because you disagree with me politically. your behavior here is insulting and you should be ashamed. you have no idea what it is like to rear children let alone kids with special needs. you have no idea what it is like when your HMO tells you that diagnostic and treatment is not medically necessary and you have to go out of pocket to be an advocate and give your kid what you know she needs to be successful.
IS I was responding to Gyges and his thoughts about vaccinations as the cause of autism. I have a feeling that there are many different “forms” or levels or severity for children diagnosed with autism, some may not even have autism but other issues that mimic or present as autism. Thus my comment as to my thought that some autism cases may not be autism at all but something entirely different.
me: yeah, I know what you were doing. you were setting yourself up as an authority in an area where you know nothing. your “feeling” about the spectrum of the disorder is again, another area where you know nothing but love to postulate as if you do. try this: learn something. read. educate yourself.
IS: I have learned from protracted exposure to the medical profession that they are not the gods they (at least some of them) pretend to be or the face they put on for the general public. They are human with the same limitations as the rest of us. The good ones know this.
me: you are incapable of learning. what you is this: jump to conclusions based on limited exposure and experience and then tout that as some kind of expertise. again. you should be ashamed of yourself.
GWMommyDearest:
First of all you are continually asking me to kill myself, so how do you want me to respond?
Hanging, shooting or slashing my wrists my dear madam. I think calling you a twit and vapid was fairly restrained under that circumstance.
I care not one wit what your political orientation is, I just disagree with it and offer my opinions on the issues of the day. Take them or leave them or offer your own, but please don’t ask me to kill myself when you disagree with me or expect some sort of return fire.
Finally how do I know you even have a child with autism? And how do you know I am not sorry if you do? I may disagree with you politically but I can certainly comment on a purely human level about life’s frustrations and disappointments.
Most peoples lives have some disappointment and sorrow, some more than others. Grow the f$%# up and get over yourself. I am sorry your parents promised you a rose garden and a knight in shining armour and that it did not work out for you. You appear to be very self centered and self indulgent.
If you dont ask me to kill myself, I will not call you a twit, banal, vapid or insipid.
IS writes: GWMommyDearest:
First of all you are continually asking me to kill myself, so how do you want me to respond?
Hanging, shooting or slashing my wrists my dear madam. I think calling you a twit and vapid was fairly restrained under that circumstance.
me: it’s not my fault that you don’t get irony. you were the one ranting about liberal medical plan death squads. my suggestion was appropriate given your level of paranoia. and I made it once. which is hardly “continually” if suicide is your fantasy that’s not my problem. clearly Liberal Death Panels are your fantasy. Tell us. when you go before the Liberal Death Panel what will we be wearing?
call me a twit. call me vapid and get over what passes for good manners and call me what you have wanted to call me. bitch. just get it over with. you will feel so much better. I promise.
IS I care not one wit what your political orientation is, I just disagree with it and offer my opinions on the issues of the day. Take them or leave them or offer your own, but please don’t ask me to kill myself when you disagree with me or expect some sort of return fire.
me: if you don’t care what the politics of others here are, what are you doing here? your issue of the day? like that makes any kind of significant contribution to anyone’s edification?
IS:Finally how do I know you even have a child with autism? And how do you know I am not sorry if you do? I may disagree with you politically but I can certainly comment on a purely human level about life’s frustrations and disappointments.
me: you don’t know. for all you know I weight 500 lbs and have my muu- muus custom made and I sit in one chair 24/7 chain smoking Parliamnents and guzzling non-alcoholic beer, haven’t washed my hair in about a month and this is what liberal democratic jewish women look like to you.
you know nothing about what it is like to raise a child with special needs and your ignorance on this subject grows every time you sit yourself down at your keyboard.
mothers know when their kids are different from the others in baby group. they know when they are at the park and the zoo and the whole rest of the time. autism isn’t ADHD. it isn’t anything like ADHD. this means that you are incapable of being sorry.
IS Most peoples lives have some disappointment and sorrow, some more than others. Grow the f$%# up and get over yourself. I am sorry your parents promised you a rose garden and a knight in shining armour and that it did not work out for you. You appear to be very self centered and self indulgent.
Me: grow the $%&* up? that’s all you have left? get over myself?
you know what? I don’t think I will. I think I will do and say say exactly as I please. by the way… that knight in shining armor? I got him. He is exactly who I’ve always dreamed of and it worked out great.
as for how I appear….you have no idea how I appear. you just wrote that you have no idea who I am. why not stick with that.
IS: If you dont ask me to kill myself, I will not call you a twit, banal, vapid or insipid.
me: no sale. you see the names you call me are strictly junior high. you can ratchet them up several notches and it still won’t bother me.
GWLSM:
“me: you don’t know. for all you know I weight 500 lbs and have my muu- muus custom made and I sit in one chair 24/7 chain smoking Parliamnents and guzzling non-alcoholic beer, haven’t washed my hair in about a month and this is what liberal democratic jewish women look like to you.”
Actually I have known several and they were all pretty. So my view of liberal Jewish women is a cross between Jennifer Lopez and Kelly LeBrok(sp?)
Although that was when I was younger so they may look like you now, I dont know.
This is a law against fraudulent advertising. Saying “it should be left up to the consumer” makes no sense. No consumer wants to be told something is Kosher when it is not. In defining what “Kosher” is for the purpose of preventing fraudulent advertising, I think it makes perfect sense to use the stricter guidelines, which is exactly what they are doing.
Most of the laws defining kashrut (what is religiously acceptable, or kosher) have been followed by the Jewish people for centuries. It has only been since the German Enlightenment of the nineteenth century that the Jewish community has started to question the need for certain laws or the narrow interpretations of these laws.
While many of these liberalizations can be considered lifestyle choices, it is vital that Orthodox Jews still have access to those products that allow them to live the traditional definition of what it means to be a Jew. A Reform or Conservative Jew can ALWAYS consume Orthodox kosher food but an Orthodox Jew will not be able to eat what many a Reform Jew might find acceptable.
Let the word Kosher really mean kosher. Unless Georgia wants to drive away every Orthodox Jew, this law makes sense. Meanwhile, everyone else can still do what they’ve always been doing. We can all make room for those with the greatest need.
Get Real writes: it is vital that Orthodox Jews still have access to those products that allow them to live the traditional definition of what it means to be a Jew. A Reform or Conservative Jew can ALWAYS consume Orthodox kosher food but an Orthodox Jew will not be able to eat what many a Reform Jew might find acceptable.
while I’m not unsympathetic to the plight of the orthodox jew lets get serious. Even the most observant Jews can find kosher food in just about any town in America. really. Even in places where there is no synagogue food can be ordered online and shipped. Or one can go vegetarian.
let me rethink this: I guess I am unsympathetic to the plight of how stringent O jews make themselves.
Curious to learn what you think of Obama’s Hope and Change, now that a year has gone by and all of his liberal and ultra liberal companions have been assigned to their various functions and the liberal agenda has at least partially been implemented.