We have previously noted the problem with President Barack Obama assuring the public that people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) will be convicted. After the previous such incidents (here), many of us noted that a president is expected to avoid such comments which are inimical to a fair trial and sitting an unbiased jury. Now, in the video below, White House Spokesman Robert Gibbs has decided to pick up the role as the Red Queen to promise not just a conviction but execution for KSM.
In an interview on CNN, Gibbs stated that “Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is going to meet justice and he’s going to meet his maker… He will be brought to justice and he’s likely to be executed for the heinous crimes he committed.”
Such statements are rapidly eroding whatever high ground the Obama Administration secured in assuring a fair trial in civilian courts for KSM and the other defendants. The Obama Administration has lost much of that high ground by engaging open dialogue with politicians on where and whether these defendants will be tried in civilian courts. Now, they assure the public that no matter where they are tried, they will be convicted. It makes our legal system appear improvisational and hypocritical.
To make matters worse, Gibbs seemed to have to be forced to confirm that the Obama Administration would fulfill its pledge to try the men in civilian court — again suggesting a fluidity in their position. The test of principle is that you follow principle when it is neither convenient nor popular. It is hardly strange that Senators and House members would fail to see the need to fulfill such principles when they are unpopular. A president, however, has an obligation to preserve our values and our Constitution. This “sentence first verdict later” approach to justice is confirming what our enemies are saying about us. Al Qaeda loves this debate. It shows American leaders unwilling to guarantee a fair trial with full rights for those people they hate or fear. Now, you have a spokesman assuring the result of a trial that has not even begun.
For commentary on the story, click here (Huff) and here (Talk Left) and here (firedoglake).
Lest I say, we take this one to the Hague or some other unfriendly country and Try them there. It would at least take some of the yoke off. Maybe, Bush got us into something that there is no easy way out of.
Obama, has a Higher standard as he is an Attorney. I missed the part about him being a former Prosecutor, but hey who knows.
Try him somewhere that is impartial and if it not be here, then somewhere out of here.
I have always wondered why we are even having a trial if the outcome is already determined. It seems to me like a Kangaroo Court.
We spend the money on his defense with his conviction a certainty and we beat our chests about how “fair” our system of justice is.
Do we need to try him to execute him? Did we really need to try the Nazis? Their crimes were there for all to see. Does this trial really give us justification for his execution or is it for a patina of respectability that I don’t think we even need based on what was done on 9/11.
He should be tried in a military court if he is to be tried anywhere, he was after all by virtue of his actions an enemy combatant in the command structure of his organization. The attacks on 9/11 were well planned and were aimed at decapitating our financial markets, military and government. It was an attempt to destroy the United States, as such I think we are justified in calling these men soldiers and trying them in military courts. It should have been done long ago.
The Greatest Show on Earth. It’s funny how peoples perceptions are in the difference between Bush’s trials of terrorist in civy courts and Obama’s. Nobody said a word when Bush did it. Must be racially motivated.
Bdaman:
I said it should have been done long ago, this is not a racist thing in my book. Bush should never have kept them at G-Bay for as long as he did. Although we do keep POWs until the end of hostilities. But when are the hostilities going to end?
The panty(waste)bomber showed us it isn’t ending any time soon. We made the same mistake in the 70′s treating this type of thing as a civilian act rather than an act of war. What should have happened is countries supporting this type of thing should have been invaded and their terrorist infrastructures crushed. States supporting terror should have been made to pay.
I imagine if we had done that to say Saudi Arabia a long time ago and made an example out of them Yemen and Pakistan would be a little more helpful.
It is hardly strange that Senators and House members would fail to see the need to fulfill such principles when they are unpopular.
I expect them to abide by their oath to uphold the Constitution too.
That sentence should read “Must be Constitutionally motivated.”
This is a legal site, badtroll. If you want racial motivation for disapproval of Obama’s actions, might I suggest your buddies over at Stormfront have a website more to your tastes. And they’ll likely give you an award when you call someone “Christ Killer”. So you got that going for you. Which is nice.
Or you could continue being a partisan hack Bush apologist.
I predict the later outcome.
The bottom line is if Bush hadn’t suspended habeas corpus and started torturing people, this would be a much smaller and easier pile of shit to clean up. Obama isn’t cleaning up, true. He appears to be wallowing in it. But that doesn’t change that it was Bush and Cheney who took the initial dump on the Constitution.
Cause and effect. Shitty illegal behavior begets more shitty illegal behavior in the political class. Who’d have thunk it?
Anyone paying attention, that’s who.
R, D? Who cares at this point? They are both corporatist scumbags selling our rights and our country to K Street.
So how about a little less focus on your propaganda partisan hooey and a little more focus on how both parties are killing America faster than any terrorist or invading army ever could.
Then again, you couldn’t get paid if you didn’t tow the line for “the man” and try to distract people from that salient issue: the Destruction of the Constitution and Due Process.
Obama may be wallowing in unconstitutional shit, but he didn’t fill the trough to overflowing. The Neocon GOP gets that credit. Your boys. The Modern American Nazi Party hiding within the GOP.
I know this because history tells me so.
Buddha,
Please stop the personal attacks. Try to attack the idea presented.
Nice to see you back Mr. Sunspot. How’d your move go. Glad we can pick up right where we left off. Mr. Science expert, knower of all.
I said it must be racially motivated because that’s what the liberal lefties claim when ever there is a difference.
Duh I’ll fight my battles, you fight yours. Let Sunny Boy continue. People will see the before and after.
Nice to see you partisan hack trolls can still only sing one song.
BTW, propaganda trolls don’t get civility. Apparently you’ve forgotten that.
You spew propaganda and I’ll pounce.
You don’t like it? Ask for a raise or find a new job.
Why don’t you go unpack some more boxes. Better yet go fix some breakfast with eggs Sunny Side up.
But I also see how successful you’ve been in stopping the other troll killers here like the Mike’s, mespo, et al in my absence.
ROFLMAO
Yeah.
I’m going to be laughing at this little exchange all day.
No, no, I insist. You two go ahead and try to make this a partisan issue at this point. It’s about the Constitution, not either party other than they are now both violating it.
You keep trotting out your propaganda though.
It’s like fish in a barrel.
Sure, what ever you say Drill Sargeant.
It’s about the Constitution. What Constitution? thats a living breathing piece of paper that changes with the times. You don’t know that. Thats why you argue case law.
Morning Buddha,
So Duh sounded off too. He has now not been accounted for since. I think he is just AWL. Not AWOL, because who cares.
I have done my best to promote civility on your blawg. Most of the regulars have been extremely civil lately. With Buddha moving, the provocateur in chief has been out of commission. FFLEO, Mespo, and a few others have provided assistance in keeping AY in check, and their assistance is most appreciated. I have begged and pleaded with Mr. Spindell to stop his personal attacks, but he continues. I have not responded in kind. There is a limit to my passivity.
I’m asking for your help. Do you want a civil blawg that promotes a healthy exchange of ideas? Or do you want a children’s playground that most will avoid?
Please help me promote civility.
Duh
Who’s writing style will be analyzed today? Inquiring minds want to know.
Who’s writing style will be analyzed today? SB:
Whose writing style will be analyzed today?
Duh, Bdaman, Waynster, et al
I think 30%er shut you down and good yesterday. Must be nice to be paid to aide and abet criminal acts.
Please do show me where anyone has done what you claime “FFLEO, Mespo, and a few others have provided assistance in keeping AY in check, and their assistance is most appreciated.”
Please do tell sir. Provide examples of all allegation used to support your claim or defense.
Dream on, Dream on, acid moon up in the sky. Duh….
Anonymously Yours
1, January 30, 2010 at 12:18 pm
First, this is not Mike S’s writing style and second, no picture of the man in the beard.
Mike Spindell
1, January 30, 2010 at 12:30 pm
AY,
It was me, I didn’t realize the picture didn’t come out and wonder why. I’ve had a lot of difficulties with WordPress of late.
Duh, Bdaman, Waynster, et al
I think 30%er shut you down and good yesterday. Must be nice to be paid to aide and abet criminal acts.
Please do show me where anyone has done what you claime “FFLEO, Mespo, and a few others have provided assistance in keeping AY in check, and their assistance is most appreciated.”
Excuse me, Mike Spindell shut you down as well.
Please do tell sir. Provide examples of all allegation used to support your claim or defense(s)
As yet, I have not seen any. Jacking this thread I see.
Trying to anyway.
The issue is VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION.
Not partisan hackery.
And good luck on being the civility patrol, trolls.
Propaganda trolls get the pointed end of the stick in this forum and they always have.
I also know this because history tells me so.
It’s one of the reasons I came to rest here. Here there be Constitutionalists and people less interested in spin than the truth. Propagandists swim at their own risk.
Could gibbs statements be used against the adminstraion in a court of law by the defense attorneys?
Somewhere and at sometime, I remember a pledge that had this phrase:
“…with liberty and justice for all.”
I hardly recognize the country and justice system that I once naively thought was good, fair, equitable, and impartial.
I still stand up for my career field when I see injustices committed. I suggest that lawyers/attorneys everywhere stand up and confront this administrations’ trashing of our U.S. Constitution before it is too late to turn back the tarnished pages of the legal ledger of justice.
” I still stand up for my career field when I see injustices committed. I suggest that lawyers/attorneys everywhere stand up and confront this administrations’ trashing of our U.S. Constitution before it is too late to turn back the tarnished pages of the legal ledger of justice.”
It wouldn’t be an issue if they hadn’t nixed the military commissions for those savages. (which are constitutional, btw)
They will not release KSM even if he were to be found not guilty, which makes this a show trial, a farce not intended to put KSM on trial but instead GWB and Cheney, et al. This is perhaps the only part of this administration that has delivered on it’s promise of transparency, though it doesn’t appear to be intentional.
Waynester you have now taken the bait, I tried to warn you. You can’t let them get under your skin like that. It’s the whole M.O.
I have been in court and just saw a couple of the threads. I have deleted a couple of entries and I must ask everyone to back off of the personal attacks. Please remember our civility rule. Please keep the passion and lose the personal stuff.
“It’s about the Constitution. What Constitution? thats a living breathing piece of paper that changes with the times”
How very progressive of you!
Of course, Scalia does not agree.
Empire Cookie
In a 2007 speech to Planned Parenthood, Obama said “We need somebody who’s got the heart, the empathy, to recognize what it’s like to be a young teenage mom. The empathy to understand what it’s like to be poor, or African-American, or gay, or disabled, or old. And that’s the criteria by which I’m going to be selecting my judges.”
Melody Barnes, a senior domestic policy adviser to the Obama campaign and administration said, “His view is that our society isn’t static and the law isn’t static as well. That the Constitution is a living and breathing document and that the law and the justices who interpret it have to understand that.”
How very progressive of who? I was being facetious
Eniobob
Could gibbs statements be used against the administration in a court of law by the defense attorneys?
I heard this question being posed on the radio on my way to pick my daughter up from school. Along with that because it was going to be a civilian court, KSM was not read his Miranda Rights. Case dismissed.
In re to Gibbs, it was said that it would be ok if the prosecuting attorney made that statement but not Gibbs. Gibbs is acting as a spokesperson for the president.
Waynester: “…military commissions for those savages. (which are constitutional, btw)”
Military commissions were legal for POW’s. The Bush admin expanded that to “Enemy Combatants” and invented a 3rd “justice” system. This false justice system is used principally to circumvent any challenge of charges resulting from testimony gained through torture; another tactic legitimized by the Bush administration. It is an incestuous system and should be scrapped.
Unfortunately the Obama admin. does not seem inclined to do so and perpetual detention for some people, without formal charge or a trial is still a part of this legal fiction regarding either POW’s or criminal defendants under our current justice system. To try KSM with a military commission is not appropriate if he is not a POW. Try him as a criminal and let the chips fall wherever they may, that’s justice IMO.
The only reason to use a military commission is if you believe a court will kick the case due to the torture.
Waynester,
I read part of one of the posts of yours that Professor Turley deleted. You add to the discussion here, because like Bdaman & Duh, you elicit responses from most of the regulars.
However, when you throw in the unnecessary junk words, those detract from your arguments because some others and I do not completely read your posts and they are subject to removal anyway–and justifiably so. Professor Turley is very liberal here with posts and very fair.
Stay around and provoke debate so we can see of what these liberals are really made–you will also learn a great deal from them.
If you like unbridled filthy language by real lawyers, go to http://randazza.wordpress.com/ and you will not be disappointed.
He and his crew still have some very good legal analyses and I am not faulting that aspect of his blawg whatsoever. His site is a real First Amendment Free Speech, all gutter words and putrid sexual implications allowed.
However, the free speech ends in the deletion of your posts when you clearly and unequivocally catch him in a big lie, and especially if you refuse to reply with urban language/gutter speak in your rebuttal. Some people will just not stoop that low to that base level on a public forum.
Waynester,
I too wish you’d stay. We can have normal discourse without making the verbal exchange *attacks* personal.
I have had posts deleted. I have been cautioned. Most of all this is an open forum, 2nd amendment taking a back seat to 1st amendment privileges or what left of it.
I see the country becoming more and more police state every day.
It is why Texas gets to fly its flag the same height as the US flag. It is never lower unless by accident. But you ask most Texan why and the could not tell you.
You see Texas was annexed and part of the sell out was to keep the Independence of the Republic in tact. Kind of like money being based on Silver or Gold or something. Eventually no one knows why something happened this or that way.
LottaKatz,
Good job. The military commissions were designed to avoid justice and to avoid the alleged evidence that was obtained through illegal torture. Buddha, you hit the nail on the head and reminded the bad man that it is all about the Consitution.
Badman, tell us all how Bush held a criminal case in “civil” court. I think you mean he tried a citizen that he held without constitutional protections in a civilian court on criminal charges. Of course, the charges were unrelated to the alleged reasons why he was imprisoned and held in solitary confinement for years. And before I forget, how many of these terrorists are really terrorists?
rafflaw: “And before I forget, how many of these terrorists are really terrorists?”
—-That’s the heart of the matter isn’t it? Once the confession is tainted with torture we can never be sure and for most of the people being held, the confession is the only evidence available.
Lotta,
Amen.
In those few instances where Obama has rejected the Bush/Cheney template, the outrage and hysteria from Democratic and media voices is pervasive, and is growing louder.
Just look at these illustrative incidents. Democratic Gov. Ed Rendell went on Fred Thompson’s radio show yesterday to demand that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed be put before a military commission — at Guantanamo. Over the weekend, Time’s Joe Klein lambasted the Obama DOJ, and embraced Bush’s former CIA and NSA Chief Michael Hayden, by objecting to the criminal charges and Constitutional rights afforded the accused Christmas Day bomber, with Klein decreeing: “the bomber is an enemy combatant. He doesn’t have Miranda rights.” MSNBC personalities Chuck Todd and Savannah Guthrie chatted yesterday with their boss, MSNBC Washington Bureau Chief Mark Whitaker, all agreeing that the decision to grant civilian trials for “Terrorists” is “a pure, self-inflicted wound.” When Najibullah Zazi was arrested for allegedly plotting a serious Terrorist attack, The New Republic’s Michael Crowley said he was so frightened by this that he was open to torturing Zazi. Democratic Senators are threatening to join the GOP in cutting off funds for civilian trials. Democratic members of Congress joined with the GOP to prevent even modest reforms of the Patriot Act and other surveillance abuses. City officials compete with one another over who can be the most frightened and terrorized by Terrorists.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/
as a reminder I said this yesterday,
The Greatest Show on Earth. It’s funny how peoples perceptions are in the difference between Bush’s trials of terrorist in civy courts and Obama’s. Nobody said a word when Bush did it. Must be racially motivated.
and Greenwald comes out with his story today. How did he do that?
http://jonathanturley.org/2010/02/01/gibbs-ksm-will-be-tried-convicted-and-executed/#comment-108773
But wait! There’s more.
As I recently said to another propagandist . . .
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” – Joseph Gobbels
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly – it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” – Joseph Gobbels
“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” – Adolph Hitler, right wing Nazi war monger, author of “Mein Kampf”.
and last but not least . . .
“Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.” – John Stuart Mill, English philosopher and economist, author of “On Liberty”.
Liar
“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” – Adolph Hitler, right wing Nazi war monger, author of “Mein Kampf”.
and last but not least . . .
“Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.” – John Stuart Mill, English philosopher and economist, author of “On Liberty”.”
Adolf Hitler was the supreme leader of the National Socialist Party in Germany. National Socialism is very similar to communism except it concerns itself with one race-the German people.
John Mill was not talking about conservatives of today. He was for free markets and liberty. I believe the current democratic party is more in line with his idea of a conservative than are republicans. although I will say that neither party is a friend of true liberty and free markets. Mill would, most probably, have found undesirable traits in both major political parties.
But the modern democrat party has far more to answer to Mr. Mill for than the modern day republican party.
Byron,
I disagree about your assessment of Mill. He’d be taking both parties to task. The GOP for 35 years of lobby graft driven de-regulation – from airlines to banking. The DNC for not stopping the Wall St./AIG/Bernake/Paulson robbery that Bush started and they oh so willingly bought into. And how he defined conservatism is applicable today to modern conservatives. Who he wasn’t talking about were people like you. He was talking about the victims (willing or otherwise) of conservatism gone wrong. In other words, FOXNews viewers – the easily duped into working against their best interests. Back in the day, they didn’t have FOX, but they most certainly did have propaganda. And conservative propaganda simply doesn’t require the brain power to process because they usually follow Herr Gobbels and The Monster Hitler’s advice about keeping it simple.
Buddah:
I definitely agree that Mr. Mill would be taking both parties to the wood shed. They do deserve the proverbial ass whuppin.
Mukasey Slams Holder DoJ: ‘Amateur Hour’, Weak
First Posted: 02- 2-10 09:05 AM | Updated: 02- 2-10 09:46 AM
Former Attorney General Michael Mukasey slammed his successor on Tuesday morning, declaring it “amateur hour” at the Justice Department and labeling current Attorney General Eric Holder weak for his handling of terrorist trials.
Appearing on “Fox and Friends”, Mukasey dispensed with any of the formalities that guide how previous administrations discuss the current one. Asked about DOJ’s apparent indecision over whether to try 9/11-plotter Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in a New York City criminal court, he unloaded.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/02/mukasey-calls-holder-doj_n_445654.html
eniobob,
Thanks for taking the time to find the most appropriate topic to post Mukasey’s article.
Such actions lead to more continuity of the topic threads until Prof T. starts a new, related topic.
Didn’t the Obama Administration just blow the trial by prejudicing the jury pool? The President, Executive in Chief, has just said KSM is guilty.
Blunder or treason?
Did not Cheney support KSM being waterboarded 180 plus times? What were they trying to do just give him a bath? Aren’t most of the Judges in NYC Bush Appointments?
Lets see did FDR summarily execute anyone for Treason in the US?
Whats your opinion on this?
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has ordered that Ahmed Ressam, a convicted terrorist arrested in December 1999 in Port Angeles with a car full of explosives, be sentenced again. And this time, the court has ordered that U.S. District Judge John Coughenour, who presided over Ressam’s trial and his sentencing and re-sentencing, not be involved.
Ressam also will likely face a much longer sentence, given that the appeals court noted several times how much lighter his 22-year sentence was than what sentencing guildelines call for. In a 2-1 decision, the court’s majority said Coughenour’s sentence — 43 years below the low range of the federal sentencing guidelines — was “both procedurally and substantively unreasonable.”
It concluded: “The district judge’s previously expressed views appear too entrenched to allow for the appearance of fairness on remand. For these reasons, we direct that the case be reassigned to a different judge for resentencing.” A new judge could be assigned in three weeks, prosecutors said. Ressam’s attorneys could appeal, and they have not responded to requests for comment. The U.S. Attorney’s Office in Seattle, which has sought a longer sentence, greeted the appeals court ruling with approval,
“Our primary mission is to protect the public. We are gratified that the Court of Appeals recognized the importance of public safety at sentencing and that Mr. Ressam remains a threat to the public.” said U.S. Attorney Jenny A. Durkan in a statement. “We have the greatest respect for Judge John Coughenour and his hard work on a difficult case. However, we maintain that to protect the public, and deter others, a longer prison sentence is necessary.” In December 2008, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Seattle appealed the 22-year sentence imposed Ressam. Ressam, an Algerian, had intended to set off the explosives at Los Angeles International Airport around New Year’s Eve 1999.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/193115.asp?from=blog_last3
Coughenhour spoke at George Soros’s Open Society Institute and shrugged off the prospect of Gitmo detainee releases as the “price we pay” for granting them the full panoply of constitutional rights in civilian trials.
His retort: “So be it.”
I oppose Gitmo (the enemy should be shot or put in a POW camp). Oh wait, this is a phony war.
I forgot.
But screwing up the chance for a fair trial while insisting on fairly treating these people is beyond the pale and certainly something I expect of Harvard grads and their creepy associates.
he’ll get a fair trail and a legal hanging
welcome to amerika