There is a horrific story out of Michigan where a couple, Scott and Jennifer Petkov, are accused of a cruel campaign targeting a seven-year-old girl, Kathleen Edwards who is dying from Huntington’s disease. The Petkov’s allegedly posted pictures showing Kathleen’s mother (Laura Edwards, who died of the disease last year at the age of 24) in the arms of the grim reaper and photo shopped a picture of Kathleen with her face above a set of crossed bones. The story (which has gone viral internationally) raises questions over the possible civil and criminal liability for such actions.
Jennifer Petkov is accused of some of the most outrageous acts and raises the same social and legal questions surrounding Lori Drew in the case of Megan Meier.
Reports allege that the Petkovs began a campaign of harassment after they asked if their children could come over to a birthday party for Kathleen. When there was no immediate response, according to the Rose family, the Petkovs turned nasty and started saying horrible things about the dying girl.
In addition to the pictures, the Petkovs allegedly drove their truck named the “Death Machine” up and down their street honking their horn. They later left the truck festooned with coffins in front of the Rose house (though they insisted it is just a Halloween decoration).
Witnesses say that the couple routinely laughed at Laura and her daughter for the neurological disease that causes involuntary writhing movements.
One of most upsetting statements attributed to the Petkovs was their telling Kathleen directly “I can’t wait until you die.” Jennifer Petkov is quoted as admitting that she continued the campaign for “personal satisfaction” and “because it burns Rebecca Rose’s ass raw.” Rebecca Rose is the mother of Laura and grandmother of Kathleen.
Kathleen’s father reportedly begged the Petkovs to stop, asking them ” ‘Just leave us alone; that’s all we want. Don’t make any more comments about our daughter.”
Scott Petkov and his wife have now apologized. Scott Petkov described how his wife’s “brutal honesty” has caused his family to “not get along with a lot of people.” For her part, she now admits “What I did was ignorant and wrong.” Scott Petkov said that, after they posted the pictures on Facebook, he was suspended with pay from his job as a forklift repairman.
They cannot apologize in person because at the height of the harassment, the Rose secured a restraining order against them.
Here is Jennifer Petkov before she decided contrition as opposed to taunting was the proper response to public outrage:
The question is what criminal or civil liability the Petkovs could face. They have a constitutional right to be horrible people. However, their first amendment rights are limited in cases of harassment, stalking, and other crimes. The most obvious criminal charge would be any violation of the restraining order. Such orders generally do not include limitations on speech such as Facebook sites and public statements. The truck could be an issue if parked within the protected zone. I do not believe Michigan has a cyber-bullying statute. What I am unclear about is why the police did not pursue this as a child abuse case, if it is true that the Petkovs confronted the little girl. If that account is false, there remains the campaign directly against the little girl as a possible abuse or stalking case.
The most obvious course for the Rose family would be a civil lawsuit for intentional infliction of emotional distress. There is probably not an action for privacy violations here, such as intrusion upon seclusion or public disclosure of embarrassing private acts. Likewise, words alone are generally insufficient for assault. However, what is fascinating about the case is Jennifer Petkov’s admission that she wanted to harm the Rose family in taking these actions.
In the end, either criminal or civil claims run into the first amendment and the right of the Petkovs to say despicable things, even allegedly to and about a dying seven-year-old girl. This is strikingly similar to the claims in the pending Westboro case before the Supreme Court. Indeed, this drama was unfolding in Michigan at the very time that the justices were hearing arguments on the right of an extremist and homophobic church to say hateful things at funerals for fallen soldiers. I believe that the Westboro Church does have first amendment rights guaranteeing such protests as a general principle. The Westboro church appears to have complied with orders to confine their protest to a certain area that was separated from the family’s church and funeral functions.
The Petkov case could be different if they crossed the line in harassing this child and confronting the family directly. While Jennifer Petkov has been called “the Devil on Detroit Street” the devil will be in the details in whether she would be able to cloak herself in the first amendment to protect her hateful speech. We simply need to confirm the specific acts in the case to determine the viability of criminal or tort liability in the case.
Source: Daily Mail
Jonathan Turley
Anti-Stalking laws are as good a PPO’s…..They only work if…an offense that is verifiable occurs and is brought to court.
I read that this was Trenton, MI….downriver from the factory’s…maybe they should check the quality of water…seems some folks have no shame….so the dad of the abuser has been suspended from work as a forklift operator…may face termination…now they want to make peace….Sick MF’s…..
“Free speech!”
with no responsibility, in action.
If it turns out there are no legal remedies, a large dose of good old fashioned public shunning through constant and repetitive local exposure is quite appropriate. A steady bright light of infamy should, how did she put it, oh yeah; burn their ass raw.
The use of a civil action to bring a common law tort would be better than a criminal prosecution for two reasons: a big civil jury award in a verdict holding them liable; 2) the criminal side could be more easily politicized because it could be applied to thwart free speech.
just sayin’ …
Let’s see . . . a horrible disease that puts a little girl in fear for what kind of life she is going to have in addition to fear of dying young.
Normally I’m all for procedural remedy, but there’s nothing wrong with the Petkovs that a good old fashioned country ass whooping wouldn’t cure.
Pick on someone your own size and age, jackasses.
“When there was no immediate response, …….the Petkovs turned nasty and started saying horrible things about the dying girl.”
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there’s an awful lot of this shit going on right now…and the recourse is as untenable as the abuse. One problem with dealing with these types of a-holes is that they make it very clear right up front that they won’t and don’t play by any rules but their greedy guts. I think the best response is to shore up the abused…the ones harmed…that helps the victim back to their feet and I’d best is the best way to show people that behave in that low fashion that they are not supported in their abuses…
We need a shrink on this blog to explain to us dummys what the hell is wrong with people like that and what makes them act that way…
Is this not harassment? How about stalking? I don’t see how this has anything at all to do with free speech? These are actions that demonstrate intent to cause harm…I don’t see the speech part.
Canoeist Goes to Court, Fighting for Right to Curse
By KEITH BRADSHER
Published: June 3, 1999
STANDISH, Mich., June 2— If Timothy J. Boomer had kept his balance in a canoe, an obscure Michigan law against swearing in front of women and children might not be tested now.
The heavily publicized prosecution already seems to be prompting the police in other northern Michigan cities to enforce the law, which carries a maximum penalty of 90 days in jail and a $100 fine.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/03/us/canoeist-goes-to-court-fighting-for-right-to-curse.html
Although the case was upheld on appeal after the man was convicted I am unsure if this case ever made it to the US Sct….
Only Men have been charged and convicted of this charge…women nor children have been convicted that I am aware of…
“I think the best response is to shore up the abused…the ones harmed…that helps the victim back to their feet …” (Woosty’s still a Cat)
That is a pro-active and positive course of action and the first prong
Exposing the perpetrator to public notice; publicizing their actions is the second prong
Filing a law suit is the third
MetroCowboy
1, October 11, 2010 at 9:53 am
We need a shrink on this blog to explain to us dummys what the hell is wrong with people like that and what makes them act that way…
=======================================================
Man, do I agree with you on that!
As soon as I saw this, I thought of the Westboro “Baptist” Church case. What’s the difference?
There are so many things wrong with this country and the fact that there are not clear and defined laws against this, is truly shocking..
The home address of Scott and Jennifer Petkov is available on the web. DO with it what you want.
The home address of the grandmother is also on the web. Perhaps cute cards for the child are appropriate?
I know this will kind of sound stupid and come off stupid to those that are….But how do you legislate morality…..Abortion is a primary example….Stupidity is something that just can be legislated…Whats the minimum drinking age in Wisconsin? It depends on if you are with you parents or not….Truthfully….Whats the legal Age that a minor can get married in Arkansas….Depends on what age the parents are….they have to be able to consent for you to get married…. hence at birth….Common sense is not age specific. You either have it or you don’t. The Bushes proved that….
“We need a shrink on this blog to explain to us dummys what the hell is wrong with people like that and what makes them act that way.”
MetroCowboy,
I’m not a shrink but I am a psychotherapist. I will give you a diagnosis which I hope is not too complex for the readership here.
They are mean, sadistic, crazy bastards who should be shunned socially by all.
“That is a pro-active and positive course of action and the first prong
Exposing the perpetrator to public notice; publicizing their actions is the second prong
Filing a law suit is the third”
————————————————-
Blouise I agree except that sociopaths are sick, not stupid…they will obstruct every attempt at the above and time is often used by them as weapon. The law is not always as saavy as I used to think….
Mike S wrote: “They are mean, sadistic, crazy bastards who should be shunned socially by all.”
Couldn’t agree more. I have one word to add: Evil.
“And to the little girl, I apologize IF you’ve been hurt.” As far as I’m concerned, not really a statement reflecting remorse.
As usual, there’s more to this story. Police said they had been called to the neighborhood several times over a “long standing family fued”. People usually don’t call police unless severe threats have been made. Either side, or maybe both sides, have apparently been making threats. NEI
These things tend to spiral out of control, especially when times are tough – as they have been in Michigan for years, now.
If the perpetrator(s) have anger management problems, their daughter needs protection.
blhlls,
Valid point. “If” is a conditional logical operand. A perfect word for non-apologetic apologies.
I’m not a shrink either, but I did do a geriatric psych fellowship after residency.
Antisocial personality disorder would fit. As would Mike Spindell’s diagnosis of “mean, sadistic, crazy bastards.”
Upstate Manhattan – where do we find the mailing address for Mrs. Rose?
Buckeye:
a family feud is one thing but taunting a dying child? It is beyond the boundaries of all that makes one human.
Chastise the family, TP their trees, have the dog take a dump on their lawn, put a turd in a brown paper bag and light it on fire on their front porch, ring the door bell and run, set their lawn on fire, put sugar in their gas tank or a potatoe [conservative spelling] in their tail pipe, soap their windows, put round-up weed killer in their grass to spell the the words F… You but don’t taunt a dying child. There is no reason to ever do that, like some have said it is evil and without any excuse whatsoever.
The only type of person that could do that would be a guard at one of the death camps in Hitler’s Germany. Evil to the core, that woman and here husband should be run out of that neighborhood with tar and feathers.
This happened nearby my home. The Edwards were on the radio this morning. They said that the feud did indeed start over a child’s birthday party 4 years ago. Rebecca Rose had a party with a bouncehouse for Kathleen (then 3). Petkov texted Rose to see if her children could come over, Rose missed the text message and an hour later Petkov was outside ranting and raving about how her children are not allowed to play with those “retards”. Since then Petkov made it her mission to taunt/torment the Edwards/Rose family, and the family obtained PPO’s against Petkov. Asked why they didn’t go further, they replied that they have been dealing with Laura’s death and Kathleen dying and could not do anything to jeopardize their freedom at a time when their loved ones needed them to be present. Thankfully, America stepped up to the plate when the news video went viral. Scott Petkov apologized for his wife’s “brutal honesty” (which the word honesty reduces the entire apology down to zero) and the Petkov’s have only shown remorse once their lives turned into a living hell. As a mother, I personally do feel that this child was exploited since her picture was used for entertainment purposes without the permission of her parent’s. I think at a minimum they should be brought up on charges for harrassment and child exploitation. Ultimately, for the Edwards, justice was served and it was long overdue. They are now peacefully enjoying their time with Kathleen, they have all of the love and support and strength and goodwill surrounding them that they should, and they have been able to raise a good amount of money for Huntington’s Research in the past several days.
Leah:
just type in their name and it comes up pretty quickly, these stupid people have brought the wrath of the entire country down upon their heads. I imagine they are going to be more than just shunned. The husband will lose his job, I would sure as hell fire him and the wife is not going to have a single friend left after this.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
‘TP their trees, have the dog take a dump on their lawn, put a turd in a brown paper bag and light it on fire on their front porch, ring the door bell and run, set their lawn on fire, put sugar in their gas tank or a potatoe [conservative spelling] in their tail pipe, soap their windows, put round-up weed killer in their grass to spell the the words F… ”
———————————————-
Byron, I don’t think I’d care to be on your bad side…;3
Woosty:
I was a perennial bad actor as a child, although I never put sugar in a gas tank nor did I put a turd in a brown paper bag. The rest I shall neither confirm nor deny
Given the reaction to this story, I can’t help but be concerned that the Petkov children may end up on the receiving end of the public reaction to their parents’ conduct.
I also agree with Mike – “They are mean, sadistic, crazy bastards who should be shunned socially by all.” Maybe if they couldn’t buy gas or groceries, and people would not talk to them, they might get the picture of how cruel they were. They don’t allow teasing and harassing in school, where were these people hatched?
As to “Freedom of Speech”: I don’t think that this is what our founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the Constitution. You have to remember that tyranny and abuse is why they left England and started the New World in the first place. Some how I don’t think Thomas Jefferson or the others would have thought that harassing a 7 year old child would qualify as “Free Speech”.
Other than that, a public flogging would be too good for these animals.
blhlls,
OMG, THEY HAVE CHILDREN? Someone call Child Services!
I have a great idea. These people need to feel the pain.
Make it so bad living there that they decide to move. Then when a Realtor shows the house, tell the potential buyer to make a really low offer (lower than what is owed on the house). Between ostracism and finances, they should learn what their definition of freedom of speech means. My take of “running them out of town on a rail.”
OH they will pay……….the public will make them pay. They removed their facebook and myspace pages, but I got their home address off craigslist that someone posted……….;0)
if you want to help this little girl
https://treetowntoys.com/
there’s your link
those people will probably have to move and change their name after /b/ finishes with them, hopefully no collateral damage
if you are not familiar with /b/, here’s the best desciption I’ve read
“I kinda of look at /b/ as the junk yard dog of the internet. Bored, lonely, mean and half insane, but it does a good job of dealing with bad guys trying to come over the fence. But, every once in a while it gets off it’s chain and eats a mailman”
Fish! via Fark
more on /b/ if anyone is interested
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4chan
kdd:
post it and lets all send nasty grams, in good taste of course.
Jennifer & Scott Petkov
167 Detroit St (Sibley & W. Jefferson)
Trenton, MI 48183-1210
Her bosses name and number is:
Jack Doheny Office: 228-339-0024
If you have a facebook page, join this group:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=158176557536777
Byron
I’ve never been into torches and pitchforks like some here seem to favor. How easily mob rule can form! I would prefer to see whatever will be safe for the children of both families occur.
Your ideas are very creative, though my favored plan for retaliation is missing. I’d tell you, but then it could be traced back to me if I ever have to use it. Like W C, I wouldn’t want to be on your bad side.
We actually had a “sugar in the gas tank” problem in a previous neighborhood, and it caused no end of trouble for all. It was a youngster who took his environmental consciousness too far when a bulldozer showed up.
These people need help and the children need help the most. I have no brief for the parents, but the innocents are being savaged, here.
blhlls has it right. Time for Prof. Turley to step in.
Buckeye:
I would not want physical harm but certainly these people should be shunned. And you are correct, if they have children I do indeed feel sorry for them. They do not have good role models.
I would do none of what I wrote as an adult, but it was fun to rehash pre-high school days. Although as I wrote to Woosty sugar in the tank and turd in the brown paper bag were not in my bag of tricks.
You should see the comments on face book, those people are in mortal danger. the anger is amazing, this has really struck a chord with people. There lives are over for the foreseeable future.
Everyone needs a place to vent. This is as good as any. Obviously we do not want any real harm to come to these people, nor fall out from any action to affect their children. We do not want to stoop to their level. But they have to be told that their actions are unacceptable and will not be overlooked. No slap on the hands.
The comments on this thread have taken a decidedly ugly turn.
it’s been three days and nothing serious, maybe the internet vigilantes found something shiny to play with
I hope nothing happens to that vile woman’s kids
anon nurse:
“The comments on this thread have taken a decidedly ugly turn.”
you mean calling a turd a turd is not politically correct? Or taking a moral stand is a bad idea? Most have said the parents should be shunned, that is ugly?
So you would just say hey I am OK you are OK, whatever floats your boat, there is no concept of morality or of decency? No standards of behaviour to adhere to, anything goes as long as you think it is OK?
Jan
Venting is fine. Listing phone numbers and addresses goes over the line, as far as I’m concerned. Some kook out there will act, they often do, and the situation will only escalate, it often does.
This is what leads to people flying planes into office buildings and shooting up a Holocaust Museum.
Buckeye well said
Jan,
I have to agree with Buckeye. There is a long standing tradition here of posting contact information for bad acting public officials as they do indeed work for “us”.
But posting that information for private citizens, no matter what kind of cretinous douche bags they may be and the Petkovs certainly qualify for that moniker, is indeed over the line and asking for trouble.
i don’t believe there needs to be a national retaliation against the Jakov’s (excuse me, the Petkov’s). It sounds like their neighbors can handle this on their own.
not only that…why do to them what you condemn them for? It’s like a giant permission slip to the lowest uncommon denominator……btw Byron….I tried nasty on for size way back when and all I got for my trouble was a pair of shoes I could never wear again and singed shins…..oh yeah…and the neighbors thought I was ‘adorable’. But that was ‘mischief night’ and I was blessed to grow up in a mellow neighborhood in good times…wish it could be so for everyone now….
I agree with Buddha. I also believe that there isn’t room in what is supposed to be a “civil society” for any sort of vigilante “justice.” Vigilante “justice” isn’t justice at all.
This mess should be worked out within the framework of the legal system. I wouldn’t socialize with the Petkovs, but what good will come of mistreating them. It’s the old “two wrongs” thing. (And with regard to “social shunning”, there’s still a line that shouldn’t be crossed, no matter how despicable these people are.)
Byron: Please read my other comment/s in this thread.
There is a rather broad line between ‘brutal honesty’ and heartless, abusive crualty. The bitch is apparently too dim or self-absorbed to see it.
Mrs. Petrov with her neck contorting a mile a minute is somewhere in the pre-adolescent stage of life. Maybe the feedback she is getting will help her to grow up so she will be more able to be a responsible parent and neighbor. Something is terribly wrong here… She appears to have mental health problems so maybe she won’t grow up no matter what. Very sad.
“Normally I’m all for procedural remedy, but there’s nothing wrong with the Petkovs that a good old fashioned country ass whooping wouldn’t cure.”
All in the name of justice I presume as we all know Bud doesnt go in for acts of revenge.
this must be a slip of the ol’ tongue
Bakersfield:
how are you? Good to see you back. In fighting form I hope. Where are Spamheed and your buddy Rhubarb with and without the Q?
In some states taunting is a crime. That would make it a crime whether it was on the Internet or not. It sounds like they were hoping the girl’s dad would come over for a fight. If he did go to their door to request them to leave the daughter alone, he would be on their property and they probably could have come out with a weapon.
As someone who has been a victim of a wrongful restraining order, I hate to see people advocate restraining orders on neighbors. In Colorado in order for there to be a restraining order there has to be an intimate relationship. Even then the orders are often abused. The one on me was obtained by a divorce lawyer. I heard that divorce lawyers frequently advise wives to totally fake being hit — hit themselves to create an injury they can attribute to their husband — so that they can get better financial settlements. I heard that this lawyer advised a wife to try to make her husband late for work so that he would hit her.
In Colorado if there is not an intimate relationship there is not supposed to be any abbreviated procedure in an application for a restraining order. In my case I was denied a lawyer and only given three days advance notice and then perjury was presented and I was not allowed to introduce the zoning regulations in evidence to show that the reason that Jane Bennett wanted a restraining order was to allow her to build two extra buildings that violated the zoning and 10 years later aren’t even on the Routt County Property Tax Rolls. When I complained to the city manager he wrote a letter to the city council ordering that the city not compare the volume and construction of the extra buildings to the laws because we were, he claimed, “having a feud”. Jane Bennett filed a police report claiming that she followed me through a store trying to take my picture to prove that she was near me and therefore I should be put in jail. She also tried to have me thrown in jail because she saw me in my own yard minding my own business when she walked by. After getting the restraining order she went out of her way to interact with me by parking next to my driveway instead of in her own driveway.
Previous to that my neighbors blocked off the last 60 feet of Princeton Ave. When I put my trash out I was threatened and my neighbor’s lawyer wrote a letter to me threatening my business if I complained about it. Blockade of a road or a passageway is a crime in Colorado with a $300 per day potential fine. My neighbors blockaded the road for 9 years and then they forced me to sell my right to it to them for $100 by threatening me with prosecution in municipal court for trimming without a trimming permit even though they city has no trimming permits and never issued one to anyone else and my neighbor’s contractor trimmed the same tree the same week as my landscaper did — an old willow tree with hanging branches interfering with automobiles. My neighbor was on the city council. The city said it was OK for my neighbor to have a fence 60 feet from his property and to put his dog house and other items on city property and to threaten us if we went on the street because we were “having a neighborhood feud”.
I complained to the police in Steamboat Springs about taunting but they did nothing. My neighbor went in my back yard and looked in my windows and when my 15 year old son came out he jumped up and down on my flowers while yelling insults. My husband signed a police report saying my neighbor crept up behind him so close that he could feel his breath. There was a bullet hole through our window but the police refused to even ask the neighbors about it even though he sometimes carried a gun with him and was a convicted felon with a NCIC record. I even got an email that said that a man with the same name threatened to shoot the young children of a prospective buyer of our property.
If there was a taunting law, then if there was probable cause for a criminal prosecution then the prosecutor could request a restraining order that would last until the end of the criminal proceedings. At least that way a government lawyer would have to detail the offensive actions and the reporting party could be prosecuted if they made a false report. Then at least there is a government purpose since if a fight had actually resulted the public would have been endangered. In my case the prosecutor didn’t write any description of probable cause that I committed a crime.
sorry I made a mistake above. I was forced to sell the land to the city council president for $1 not $100.
I am thinking Jennifer Petkov might have paranoid personality disorder.
http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/paranoidpd.htm
One of the signs of paranoid personality disorder is:
5) persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults, injuries, or slights
She is most likely paranoid. Paranoid people are also prone to anger and are very resentful.
I’m usualy not prone to such emotional outbursts…but FUCK THESE PEOPLE! It is my personal OPINION that these ignorant cock suckers need to be painfuly publicly slowly EXECUTED! How could you use ANY excuse to torment a terminaly ill child who has lost her mother from the same disease the child has? Give me a knife, hot coals, alchohol and a suture kit and ill put on one helluva show!BURN IN HELL YOU VERMINOUS PERISITIC MOTHER FUCKS! Apology or not you are the reason our children cant play in the streets in our neighborhoods. You are the reason we cant feel safe in our own back yards! If the law would allow i would creatively execute you and all the motherfuckers like you on cable and broadcast tv! Evil Breeds Evil! You reep what you sow! email me at brad_scott_1985 at hot mail dot com if you have anything to say to me. untill then. DIE!!!….slowly. The preceding has been an excersise in the first amendment. My personal opinion may not reflect the viewpoints of any one person or coorporation. For those that do not appreciate the kind of hate bred by evil human beings it is my opinion that you can all fuck off and die too.
Jan,
Now aren’t you glad you posted their contact information?
I think I would go along with a statute that would allow neighbors to file for restraining orders that would be extremely limited in scope. If you had a really limited and clear order that involved basically giving up no rights at all, since you don’t have a right to trespass and you don’t have a right to interact with other people’s children, an extremely limited statute might work. It could be a simple registration form with no need to enter adverse character evidence at all. What do you think?
I just realized that post was garbled. Someone kept talking when I was writing it and there is no edit option. How does this sound?
What do you think about a statute that would allow anyone for any reason to post that they don’t want that particular person on their property and/or that they don’t want that particular person to interact with their minor children.
Of course there is still the issue of what happens when someone wants to get a restraining order against a police officer or a child protective services employee.
I’m not gonna give this evil family anymore attention. I’m on my way to walmart to buy some cool little things for this precious girl. How awesome would it be for this little girl to get showred with care packages and cards.
Please join me no matter where your from!
There are no words. Well, one–sick!
“Now aren’t you glad you posted their contact information?”
“Normally I’m all for procedural remedy, but there’s nothing wrong with the Petkovs that a good old fashioned country ass whooping wouldn’t cure.”
condoning acts brought out of revenge again, illogical and completely hypocritical again
Tautology?
not bin near a ‘puter for a lil while, back now tho
Rhube aint in a fit state to post fer now, but I reckon god willin he will be soon enough I see the Spamheed dude still posts now an then
hyperbole \hī-ˈpər-bə-(ˌ)lē\, n.,
: extravagant exaggeration
You’re still failing at the English language, troll.
Professor Turley, please take a minute to make a correction in your article. On the last paragraph; it should read Jennifer Petkov NOT Kathleen Petkov.
Thanks.
My loving support for Kathleen and family.
but getting ten out of ten fer quoting you sayin the followin
“Normally I’m all for procedural remedy, but there’s nothing wrong with the Petkovs that a good old fashioned country ass whooping wouldn’t cure.”
“Since the distinction between justice and revenge was lost on you the first time . . .”
Justice cannot be had without equity. An “eye for an eye” is not equity, but parity. Parity is required to sate the very human need for revenge. Equity can meet the needs of parity but parity alone creates inequity in the form of additional burdens passed on to society to pay.
Which is more just:
A) An eye for an eye, which leave two blind people that will require some form of social assistance and/or accommodation?
B) A suitable punishment that maximizes the inconvenience to the perpetrator by passing the maximum costs to them directly without creating an additional burden on society such as prison time and/or economic damages paid as restitution that leaves the perpetrator physically whole but chained to their bad act socially and economically, possibly in perpetuity?
If your goal is simple revenge, the answer is A.
If your goal is justice, the answer is B.
hyp·o·crite
: A person given to hypocrisy.
: a person who pretends to be what he is not
: A person who engages in the same behaviors he condemns others for.
Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have. Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie.
li·ar \ˈlī(-ə)r\
: a person who tells lies
Hypocrisy is not simply failing to practice those virtues that one preaches. Samuel Johnson made this point when he wrote about the misuse of the charge of “hypocrisy” in Rambler No. 14:
or are you now sayin that you dint say this and that u dont “Normally” condone acts of revenge, seems like u change ur tune more times than a busted jukebox ol’ son
Not interested in your unique interpretation of English little green man or how someone could be “Failing at[sic] the English language”
Thanks Joe.
Bakersfield:
good post, I especially like your use of a definition.
Nonsensical troll spam sure looks prettier in Cyrillic.
It’s only nonsensical coz you wrote it all.
you been plain busted lil man.
The only thing busted around here is the synaptic gaps in your adolescent troll brain.
Buddha you got a klingon…nasty lil buggers…
“The only thing busted around here is[sic] the synaptic gaps in your adolescent troll brain.”
since you refer to the synaptic gap(s) in the plural, then you would be looking to use the verb “are”
pretty ironic since I am allegedly the one “still failing at the English language”
FAIL 256 – acting in a hypocratical manner with an unsound and illogical argument
FAIL 257 – using inappropriate grammar when attempting to take a superior position
FAIL 258 – using offensive and derogatory terms to describe a third party when faced with the undeniable truth of your own hypocracy and grammatical errors
FAIL – 259 being you
synaptic gap
n.
The minute space between the cell membrane of an axon terminal and of the target cell with which it synapses. Also called synaptic cleft.
Synapse – Definition
Synapses allow nerve cells to communicate with one another through axons and dendrites, converting electrical signals into chemical ones.Synapses are specialized junctions through which cells of the nervous system signal to one another and to non-neuronal cells such as muscles or glands.
Synapses form the circuits in which the neurons of the central nervous system interconnect. They are thus crucial to the biological computations that underlie perception and thought. They also provide the means through which the nervous system connects to and controls the other systems of the body
W=c,
As Worf showed, Klingons are quite competent and intelligent so that kind of rules these trolls out in this instance.
I’m thinking they are more like Ferengi. Just as unpleasant but without the ability to raise an effective offense.
So rather than being similar to one imaginary race which doesn’t actually exist, you argue that we’re more like a different completely imaginary race which doesn’t exist.
pretty solid argument you got there ROFLMAO, so much better than facing up to the valid accusations of hypocricy levelled against you.
FAIL 260: still bein you
Bakersfield:
such animosity toward a human diety?
Bakersfield:
your logic is impeccable.
The tortious neighbors probably have some assets that could be sued to get. Even if it is not millions of dollars, whatever it is might help the wronged neighbors. Maybe they have a boat or a cabin that the little girl could use.
This is supposed to be a blog for lawyers. (I didn’t go to law school.) Why hasn’t someone stepped up and offered their services to the wronged neighbors and figured out a way to do so without the attorney fees eating up the recoverable judgment?
I’d like to know the time period under which these events occurred. There are so many issues about access to legal services. Here is an opportunity to look into a real life example and find out what went wrong and how the problems could have been deescalated before so much damage was done.
Bakersfield:
jolly good show.
His logic is definitely impeccable
Spinach:
I concur.
Except I’m not answerable to you and your accusations have already been proven multiple times to be of the same dog shit quality as your brain.
Don’t you children have socks to be making crusty for your mom to wash? At least when you take a shot at that task you end up with something other than frustration for your efforts.
Or maybe not.
Sexual dysfunction can lead to all kinds of irrational behavior, especially in teens.
Run along now, Andy Troll.
“Why hasn’t someone stepped up and offered their services to the wronged neighbors”
I know of at least a dozen eager young gentlemen who would gladly step up and quietly resolve the Edwards problem with this family.
However this would not be in the best interest of justice and at best would be seen as a tit for tat act, or an act of revenge.
I would think the “death by media and public opinion” that they will surely face will be a darn sight more effective than any amount of good old fashioned country ass whoopings that they may receive.
Hey bud, why so bitter?
why do you find yourself reverting to foul and abusive language?
There is no need to be so base, just as there is no need to promote acts of violence in the name of justice, surely this would make us no better than those we wish to punish. tit for tat and an eye for an eye are no substitute for a suitable punishment that maximizes the inconvenience to the perpetrator by passing the maximum costs to them directly without creating an additional burden on society such as prison time and/or economic damages paid as restitution that leaves the perpetrator physically whole but chained to their bad act socially and economically, possibly in perpetuity?
All I have done is post three examples of posts made by you which conflict each other and show you to be a hypocrite. have I done wrong?
You have a record for abusing those who have a different opinon to yours and go to great lengths to stomp on them with the help of ol’ merriam webster.
Bakersfield:
“You have a record for abusing those who have a different opinion to yours and go to great lengths to stomp on them with the help of ol’ merriam webster.”
He uses “logic” as well, precise, off the market logic. Doncha know.
What I have is a record of not putting up with trollish bullshit.
You, on the other hand, have a record for being a disreputable lying troll using multiple identities and spewing verbal diarrhea in inappropriate places.
My record plays much better than yours.
Now let me make this clear: That a troll thinks I’m a hypocrite means absolutely nothing to me or to the regular participants of this forum.
Now get to crackin’ on those socks. I hear your mom loading the washing machine right now.
You seem to be developping a real potty mouth, you might want to calm down before you pop a vein, so much anger
“What I have is a record of not putting up with trollish bullshit” That is clearly untrue – you have a record for being a hypocrite and blowing like a big green windsock in which ever direction you see fit.
The quotes are posted for all to see and still you dispute them.
These are your own words you are disputing.
I don’t agree that giving someone a good old country ass whooping would serve anything other than revenge and as we both know that could never be condoned or accepted, yet that is what you said. I would prefer to see them publicly humiliated and then prosecutede inline with the law and hopefully left to carry the financial implications of their acts.
Your suggestion is only one step short of the lynch mobs in the second rate westerns and I could never accept such an obviously flawed premise, even from you.
hyperbole \hī-ˈpər-bə-(ˌ)lē\, n.,
: extravagant exaggeration
If you can’t recognize it when you see it, that would be your problem, troll. Perhaps I should clearly label such statements to aid you trolls with compromised cognitive abilities.
As to anything else you have to say?
blah blah blah blah
That you think you have any credibility here is just hysterical.
and off you go again in another nonsensical ramble. troll this and troll that
I’m better than you and I’m smarter than you and I use bigger words than you – but its not me that’s using such gutteral language is it?
It’s not me that’s being hung by my own petard is it?
Get it into your lil green head. these are your words, quotes of your posts in all of their logical glory, clearly showing the hypocracy of your words.
Choosing to ignore them will nnot make them go away
I am just the messenger here, you the hypocrite – I push the button and you jump about – just as youi have always done
Buddha Is Laughing ;
As Worf showed, Klingons are quite competent and intelligent so that kind of rules these trolls out in this instance.
I’m thinking they are more like Ferengi. Just as unpleasant but without the ability to raise an effective offense.
———————————————-
I was referring to the other variety…sans Trekkie interpretation….;) but gotta say….that’s quite the flaming pyre you’ve got there……..
roflol W=c.
Maybe a good supply of Charmin would clear up the infestation.
And to Bakersfield,
Troll is as troll does, Forrest.
Here’s the evidence . . .
http://jonathanturley.org/2010/09/09/teens-beat-to-death-81-year-old-man-attending-granddaughters-wedding-on-a-dare/
Any credibility you think you have here is simple delusion on your part.
There are faults in the idea of death by bad publicity for the tortious neighbors. 1.) No remedy for the injured neighbors. 2.) Imperfect sanctions — tortious neighbors can probably escape financial consequences by moving etc. Sanctions may adversely affect innocent parties. Public information may be inaccurate or misleading. 3.) Bad precedent of leaving unstable and potentially dangerous situation without professional intervention encouraging vigilante justice. So far there has been no mention of a gun. It is unlikely that the parties involved don’t have access to guns even though they apparently don’t have access to courts.
Yes Buddha laughs but does not stoop adolescent temper tantrums.
A temper tantrum is an unplanned, unintentional expression of anger, often with physical and verbal outbursts.
Your assumption (and implication) Jeff is that what I do is unplanned or unintentional.
That would be an incorrect assumption.
Actually I’ve been wondering about the identity and agenda of “Buddha is Laughing”. Are you associated with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce ? — i.e. are you planting ideas that are anti Access to Courts?
kay,
You can wonder all you like.
If you think I’m for the Chamber of Commerce? You haven’t been reading or understanding my posts. I think the Chamber of Commerce operates like a fascist criminal organization spreading political graft and should have the FBI on them like white on rice.
Quite to the contrary on the access issue, I’m all for better access – I just choose not to feed your personal quest for reasons I’ve already stated. However, you may find this interesting . . .
Access To Justice In U.S. At Third-World Levels, Says Survey
Here’s a direct link to the survey Froomkin is talking about:
http://worldjusticeproject.org/
Yes I think this study is great.
I am a real fan of the idea of Access to Courts. I think school kids should be encouraged to resolve bullying and other problems thru mini court and that all high schools should offer courses in law.
I am sorry if I misunderstood your comments. It is not that I really want to spend more days blogging about Sieverding v. DOJ. It is just that my entire life is hanging on it — the roof over my head and my ability to buy basic necessities as well as my reputation and freedom. I am generally a positive and resourceful person but at least 100 times I must have thought about suicide because of my frustration with the courts and the burdens my evil nasty and I think criminal defendants put on me and my family. And I am someone who always wants to find the silver lining.
I also view all this from the standpoint of city planning — the subject of my degree. I know a lot of lawyers think that zoning and land use regulations are boring and unimportant but actually there is really a lot of money and emotion associated with them, and with any boundary dispute — the basis of WWI for instance.
When I went to Routt County Court to get mandamus to get my former neighbor the City council president to comply with the zoning I was totally unsuccessful even though I had Ed Serr a land use lawyer who I was paying who had litigated against the City of Steamboat Springs giving me advise in the background. I thought that Judge Joel Thompson was blackmailed because the next year the DEA arrested his girlfriend and I had heard my neighbor was a drug dealer (in 2009 he admitted a felony conviction). When Thompson said that he didn’t have mandamus authority, Serr advised us that appeal would be pointless because by the time it was completed the extra buildings would be completed and they wouldn’t order a tear down.
http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/2000/jul/26/city_council_president/?more_like_this
http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/2000/jul/27/case_against_council/?more_like_this
Just recently I found
http://www.ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/01/01-2096.pdf
so I was correct that there is mandamus to enforce the zoning. I don’t see why that can’t be available to individuals and small projects and not just when there is large projects and big law.
You are a lawyer, right? Have you ever actually written a petition for mandamus?
That access to courts study is great. Thank you for the link.
You are a lawyer, right? Have you ever actually written a petition for mandamus?
Kay,
Yes I am and yes I have but only for academics, never in practice. It just never came up in what I did.
Your statement: “I think the Chamber of Commerce operates like a fascist criminal organization spreading political graft and should have the FBI on them like white on rice.”
is a pretty strong. I wish you would expand on that.
As far as mandamus goes, it seems like not that many are actually filed. I filed several and they were always denied for reasons that didn’t seem transparent. A motion for mandamus isn’t supposed to be difficult right? You aren’t supposed to have to write like a college professor to get one, right? All you’re supposed to have to do is explain why there is no other remedy, show your government and court documents, and quote the statutory or case law basis, right?
Kay,
There are formalities to both the form of the document proper and also there are formalisms to way legal arguments are made and legalism presented to the court that are not necessarily going to be met even if your submission formalities are all met. This is why even though it’s your right to represent yourself, it’s rarely a good idea because it is legal training that allows you to know and avoid those other potential pitfalls in presentation. The more complex the litigation, the worse it is for one to represent themselves. It’s not even a good idea for lawyers to represent themselves except maybe in the simplest of cases and even then it’s not a good idea because as a party to litigation or defendant you’re simply too close to the subject matter to trust your own objectivity as a general rule. It’s analogous to why psychologist and doctors should never treat themselves either. The objective eye catches more than the interested eye.
As to the Chamber of Commerce? The Chamber raises money from foreign-owned businesses for its 501(c)(6) entity, the same account that finances its unprecedented $75 million dollar partisan attack ad campaign. They have no interest in your rights or preserving the Constitution or anything that interferes with their “profits above all else” agenda. They are venal fascists who think they should be able to do whatever they want as long as it makes them money and not suffer any consequences for wrongdoing.
“There are formalities to the form of the document”
An internal edit that didn’t quite all make it to my fingers in time.
I / we (my family) have/has been self employed as manufacturers for almost 30 years so I can definitely relate to business interests but I think that it is probably better for everyone to have more access to courts rather than less and I perceive the Chamber as being anti access to courts.
It was not my intention to become stubbornly pro se. In fact, a significant part of our family income has been derived from patent licensing, which we never would have received if we had been pro se. I really am not anti -lawyer. I respect specialists.
I ended up Pro se for two reasons — 1.) My husband wanted to save money and thought I was “free” to him and almost as good as a lawyer 2.) My legal troubles started in a town of 11,000 people where there weren’t very many lawyers. I had a property dispute with the city council president. He was a sophisticated and smart guy, a convicted felon, and part of his strategy to get my property rights was to deprive me of Access to Courts. Part of how he did that was to hire almost every lawyer in town so when I tried to hire them they had conflicts. Where we lived was a 4 hour drive from the nearest big city so to hire a lawyer from there meant that every appearance included at least 8 hours of driving. I met someone who also had problems w the same local government and her solution was to only hire non local lawyers — adding at least $2,000 to every court appearance.
I admit that I am emotionally involved with my pleadings and that that adversely affects my writing clarity. Sometimes my writing really isn’t clear. My oral skills as assessed in tests are lower than my other skills. I have a problem with alcohol and have been known to drink and write. Plus my family and work dynamics result in my being interrupted and distracted when I am writing. My strengths are being multi-disciplinary and creative problem solving.
Another problem is that my adversaries don’t want to deal with me personally so since I don’t have a go between they avoid negotiating with me totally and try to attack my character. But I am where I am and try to optimize. Once a person has been a victim of obstruction of justice and is pro se, it is very hard to get to a procedure where legal decisions are actually being made on the facts. The McGee Commission observed that it is practically impossible to get a lawyer to sue a lawyer. With my facts, suing lawyers in tort is almost essential to getting recovery or redress. My theory is that the obstacles to suing lawyers causes problems w Access to Justice and that that results in bad public policies.
PS as to the form of the document… if you follow Justice Scalia’s directions you can’t go wrong right? The one disagreement I have w Justice Scalia has to do with use of dichta. He doesn’t like it and says he doesn’t want to read block quotes. I do like dichta because it has authority that my writing doesn’t (because I get no respect). However, I can write without dichta. For instance I wrote, in my unopposed Sieverding v. DOJ appeal, see http://www.rightscase.com ,
“Both the Supreme Court and the Circuit of the District of Columbia have ruled that governments have liability for the actions of their subordinates when there is informal policymaking or deliberate indifference.”
See Monell v. Department of Social Services 436 U.S. 658 and Josiah Haynesworth and Fred Hancock v. Frank P. Miller 820 F.2d 1245.
That was perfect form right?
Kay,
I’m not going to give you specific legal advice, but I am going to give you some general advice on doing research.
Scalia is not a good role model for anything. Scalia’s been a corrupting right-wing bane on SCOTUS since his appointment and is just as vile and evil as his hunting partner, Dick Cheney. There’s a reason Bob, Esq. refers to him as “The Dark Lord”.
As to relying upon dicta, that’s not necessarily a good idea. It’s not law but mere opinion that can – but doesn’t always or often – inform the law. It’s not controlling. If you want to know more about the value of dicta, see below on how to find out.
If you want to do legal research properly, you need access to a good law library, Westlaw and/or Lexis/Nexis. Many law schools will allow you to use their library for research, but you can’t remove books usually unless you’re a student.
If you don’t know about a specific topic and want an overview of the subject matter, start by looking at Am Jur 2d (American Jurisprudence 2nd Edition) either at the library or it’s available through Westlaw or Lexis. It’s essentially a legal encyclopedia that can be used to point you to more detailed areas of search. If you need to know form details, the online services can provide many/most, but in a library ask the reference librarian where the appropriate formularies are located. And make friends with the reference librarian. They can be invaluable resources themselves when you are looking for something specific. To learn how to cite anything properly, buy yourself a copy of “The Blue Book”. It’s the legal citation version of “Elements of Style” and will give you the proper way to cite anything you could want in presenting your case.
But mostly and lastly I will give you one piece of general legal advice: you really need to find a good attorney even if you have to range out of town. This kind of stuff is what they are trained and paid to do – research, prepare and present. They will know to look for things and avoid pitfalls from their training and experience that you as a layperson might not think of or even know about.
Those who requested a shrink – hope you’ll settle for a member of a support group for adults who had parents like this. They’re called “Axis 2 Personality Disorders,” also known as “Cluster B Personality Disorders.” I’ll skip over the psychiatric-speak, but basically, the emotional parts of their brains never developed to adulthood, so now they behave like mean little kids. They are consumed by anger, rage, hyper-sensitivity to slights, and do not follow basic social rules of interaction. They are known to be extremely verbally abusive, vindictive like you wouldn’t believe, and have been called “bullies who blame their targets.” There is no known cure.
PD’s, as we call them, regularly engage in smear campaigns when enraged – for instance, lying about you to all your neighbors, or calling your workplace to make a false report that you use drugs. They get enraged for no damn reason and then create “cognitive distortions” – also known as bizarre, crazy thinking – to justify their behavior. In other words, if Petkov had a beef with this little girl’s family, it would be over something very minor or even nonexistent.
Personality Disorders are known to be completely consistent in their behavior. Note that she doesn’t just restrict her abuse to the little girl.
As soon as I heard this story, I thought, “She’s either a borderline PD or a narcissist PD.” You can look them up for more information; go for the people who have actual stories about them since the medical diagnostics are confusing. “Out of the Fog” is an excellent website.
By the way, and I have this on good authority from my outstanding therapist, borderlines and narcissists are considered the most dangerous people next to serial killers.
Dear BIL
Thank you.
On-line research is the most convenient for me. I have used Caseclerk.com, as well as other resources. I have a library of law books most of which I read at least partially. I have spent some days at U of WI law library and have also borrowed books there.
I think American Jurisprudence is great, even though I know some lawyers make fun of it. I did research on Kansas law and noticed that their courts were citing it. As I mentioned earlier, I spent 4 months at Georgetown Jail for engaging in pro se litigation without permission. While I was there I studied law and worked on my law projects from 6 to 6. A lot of that I spent reading American Jurisprudence, since it was their only legal reference. It was in A.J. that I first read about YOUNG V. U.S. EX REL. VUITTON ET FILS, 481 U. S. 787 (1987) — that a prosecutor must be independent and cannot have a financial interest in the outcome. I quoted that in a motion to Nottingham objecting to his use of the defense counsel as prosecutors and I quoted it to their face in court.
I was jailed specifically for filing a Rule 60b(3) motion in a nonrendering court. I got that idea directly from American Jurisprudence. It’s in the section on judgments. I found that before I was sent to jail. I also used Causes of Action Journal.
I’ve been researching a motion for mandamus in the 10th Circuit. For that I am relying primarily on their own opinions, which are on-line at their website.
I always thought I was a good researcher, however, one problem that I had in my legal efforts is that I didn’t name my tort (First Amendment Retaliation) as early as I wish. The magistrate said my claims sounded like a Hornbook Textbook and I did take most of it from The Law of Torts by Dan Dobbs but that didn’t list First Amendment Retaliation. It might have been smoother initially if I had used that phrase in my first complaint.
My goal is to win my financial judgment and then do other things. I have no interest in going to law school.
Dear Lee
Do you think this anti-social behavior is related to the decrease in church attendance?
P.S. BIL
Before I sued the City of Steamboat Springs I knew someone else who did. He spent over $100,000 and then had to quit because he ran out of money. If I could have hired a lawyer for my lawsuit for 10K I would have done it. I heard that the city council said their tactic was to bankrupt him.
In my litigation, dilatory tactics were omnipresent. As a pro se litigant it is difficult to overcome them because PRO SE are denied required procedures that are required to establish facts. The idea seems to be that the lack of procedural due process can be attributed to pro se confusion and incompetence.
One advantage that I have is that I am not embarrassed by what I don’t know. I happen to know that law is big enough that most lawyers specialize but many are uncomfortable admitting what they don’t know. I’ve been around a lot of very intellectually gifted people and it doesn’t rattle me too much. I can recognize their strengths but still concentrate on getting to our goal, i.e. at this time, winning our lawsuit.
For other PRO SE litigants that might read this, a major tip is to spend 8 cents a page on PACER to look up other litigants’ documents. I cut and pasted paragraphs from one of Dr. Stephen Hatfill’s objections.
Kay,
Your previous post though indicates the problem of a layperson trying to act as an attorney.
AmJur is fine for something that’s considered general legal knowledge to cite (Bob recently used it arguing a point to Vince here), however, the Devil is in the details. Because you don’t the requisite underpinnings of history and theory, you won’t know where to dig deeper and find the appropriate on point case law and statutes that may have variations based on local jurisdiction. Case law and statutes are where the controlling law is to be found. Had you had these skills, you wouldn’t have made the mistake of lacking specificity in claiming your tort.
In addition, if clarity in writing is an issue for you, then you really shouldn’t be preparing paper. I’m going to tell you a dirty little secret about the legal profession. We’re trained to be able to write two ways for two different reasons.
We’re trained to write in an arcane manner mostly for the purposes of scholarly research although you see it creep into things like contracts and disclaimers. This may seem to be valueless because of the contractual and disclaimer experience most people have (in fact, Bob, mespo, Mike A. and myself have had many a good laugh over ‘boilerplate’ language found in disclaimers), but the law can be a very complex and arcane subject. In scholarly application it’s a lot like a form of differential equation: it’s rules that change over time and with circumstance layered over precepts that do not change. It requires what is known as Art.
But for court (and this is where the dirty little secret is), we’re trained to write with brevity and clarity that a monkey could understand because the assumption is 1) that judges don’t like having their time wasted and 2) some of them are only slightly smarter than monkeys so you must prepare like all of them are monkeys. Sirrica didn’t get the Watergate trial because they thought he was the best judge on the circuit at the time (for political advantage). Some judges are easier to baffle than others and this can be used to tactical advantage. Look at the O.J. Simpson trial if you want an example of an easily baffled or dazzled judge. Had I been the judge, I’d have shut down “The Dream Team’s” histrionic presentation early on.
As to the speaking part, as you found out, it’s hard to talk to a judge in the way you need to without being trained. That’s part of what got you into the position you are in now. It’s like a kind of verbal dance and if you don’t know the steps, it makes judges cranky. They like to get to the point. Public speaking of any sort can be daunting, but the difference between talking to say the Rotary Club and talking to a judge and/or jury is like the difference between a waltz and ballet. Both are precision work, but ballet is about a thousand times more difficult. You’ve may have heard the saying “a good lawyer never asks a question he doesn’t know the answer to first”. This is because they know the proper steps of the dance if they are doing their job. If they are thrown for a loop by a sudden change of beat by the prosecution or defense (or the judge), they know how to change their dance.
I’m not suggesting you shouldn’t exercise your rights. However, after reading what you’ve said tonight, I cannot say strongly enough: Money aside, you need a professional. Especially since you’re dealing with a small jurisdiction where everyone knows everyone. Where I’m at now is a place much like that. If you wanted to pursue a Med Mal claim in this town? You’d have no choice to be get counsel from outside the area. Small town politics suck and if you get a bunch of people to cozy with one another, that’s when you see issues like you had where the available pool of attorneys is “tainted”.
I know you’re passionate about this, but really, you need to find a way to hire an attorney if you want to stand a chance of seriously winning any kind of monetary settlement and moving on.
pardon, “too cozy”
It has been a long day and my fingers are getting lazy.
Dear Bil
I really appreciate your points on this. I had actually gone to bed but I kept thinking about this and got up again.
Maybe the right lawyer will see this and call me. Believe me I don’t bite and my husband is OK too.
Look at my Court of Appeals Docket CDC 10-5149. See our unopposed brief and our unopposed petition for a settlement conference. Does anyone want to help close that? This is against DOJ for two Dr. Stephen Hatfills at $5.6 M each. I used Hatfill as a benchmark and DOJ did not object. Our 3rd party civil litigation which DOJ intervened into was claimed at $13-15 M based on $400,000 economic damages plus defamation personal damages for 4 people. The sons were intimidated and dropped out, although I think they had real damages. The actual economic damages are now greater because we had damage to our independently owned family manufacturing businesses plus our former house is now for sale for $1.3 M but we were forced to sell same house for $580,000. Other benchmarks include a $10-11 M jury award to the Quigleys for a scheme to raise money by pretending that they were Nazis. I think Rule 804 applies.
One claim I am positive that I can prove and have tolling for is first amendment retaliation against a prosecutor who is insured by Lloyds. Lloyds claimed to State of CO division of re-insurance they had a $250 M bond.
10th Circuit recognizes liability for those who initiated or, what is the term they used…., anyway I am still going thru the case law but I think Colorado Intergovernmental Risk Sharing insured claim and Lloyds was there re-insurer. Parties actively involved in the First Amendment Retaliation, the Bennetts, Randall Klauzer etc., have a lot of real estate wealth since this all happened in a ski resort. The prosecutors’ family is involved in real estate development and the reason she prosecuted me without a written statement of probable cause was to advance their real estate interests so there is a lot of money there.
Ideally, my 3rd party civil defendants would reimburse DOJ for the $11.6 M to me and hubby and we would get a RICO premium potentially three times our original claim. Also, I have a tax whistle blower claim on CIRSA and Lloyds. If they came in, we would be talking about some real money.
My ideal situation is that my husband and sons get substantial sums for expansion of our already existing business interests and I would have my own pot of money for my personal interests. Then the RICO money I would donate mostly to legal reform projects. As an independent I will have flexibility not available with government funds.
The reason I got out of bed was to follow up on the discussion of “dicta” or “dictum”. I had problems establishing facts of law. In my current court, I found
Vertical stare decisis — both in letter and in spirit — is a critical aspect of our hierarchical Judiciary headed by “one supreme Court.” U.S. CONST. art. III,§1. And as we have said before, “carefully considered language of the Supreme Court, even if technically dictum, generally must be treated as authoritative.” United States v. Dorcely, 454 F.3d 366, 375 (D.C. Cir. 2006). Winslow v. Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, 587 F.3d 1133 (D.C.Cir. 12/01/2009)
This, plus my S.C. quotes, is all I need to prove my arguments. I only need 875 words to get to
For the reasons stated by the Supreme Court and quoted above, The First Amendment limits restrictions on PRO SE speech.
And she snapped, finally! Jennifer Petkov was arrested yesterday for trying to run over another neighbor.
http://www.freep.com/article/20101016/NEWS01/10160484/1001/rss01
Looks like the entire neighborhood is going to have to file a PPO on her pretty soon. Nobody s safe living near this whacko.
What does “trying to run over” mean?
Per my earlier posts, a Jane Bennett in Steamboat Springs got a restraining order on me based on a sua sponte finding that I “molested” her. That supposedly consisted of yelling that she was violating the zoning.
In an ex parte hearing, Jane Bennett also claimed that I tried to hit her car with my car. I had been doing errands with my son and we ended up driving home behind Jane Bennett. My car was fairly new and in good condition. It was 3:30 p.m. on a warm afternoon in September and since no one in Steamboat has AC everyone had their windows open. Merrit St has many houses and with the grade school right there there were a lot of people. I was not even accused of speeding and the speed limit was only 25 mph.
Jane Bennett’s car stopped at the stop sign and I stopped behind her without hitting her car. I got to the stop sign and stopped again and then turned and drove to my driveway and parked in it. She told the judge under penalty of perjury that I tried to hit her car. No one substantiated that charge. If I had wanted to rear end her car it would have been easy but I was just driving home with my school aged son.
I’m not defending Petkov, I am just saying that “trying to run over” could be totally made up. At this point you could probably get people to testify they saw her with a broom.
Kay S wrote: “I’m not defending Petkov, I am just saying that “trying to run over” could be totally made up. At this point you could probably get people to testify they saw her with a broom.”
I agree. I’ve been seeing some really ugly things over the course of the past few years. It’s pretty easy to destroy someone these days — false allegations are not uncommon, sadly. (To be clear, I’m not a supporter of the Petkovs, but believe that Kay is right.)
Yes and making false police reports is a crime. Do you think this article is a tort? i.e. defamation or false light publicity….
http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/2001/jan/25/woman_in_harassment/
The charges were dismissed in 2001 but the article doesn’t acknowledge that. There was no arrest, no warrant, and no written statement of probable cause. The Pilot deleted my comments and will not let me post. I asked them to remove the article from the Internet and can prove that. As the paper is well aware the so called garage is two floors with central heating and plumbing and multiple rooms on each floor. The so called log cabin was a non conforming unheated shed that was expanded. A new foundation with in floor heating, kitchen, and full bathroom with tub were added and the garage door was filled in. The planning services director while under oath referred to her organization the American Institute of Certified Planners but their emails show they never had a member with that name. To be an AICP member is a big deal involving tests, background checks, and an ethics pledge. When I found out that she wasn’t an AICP member I notified the newspaper. The buildings described were never put on the property tax rolls and in 2008 the Routt County assessor made a public statement that there are many illegal buildings in Steamboat Springs and enforcement of the regulations is lax.
Everytime anyone googles my name this article comes up. I have a masters degree in city planning from MIT and this article damages my professional reputation.
Doctors and shrinks, lets call it the Dick Cheney syndrome, eh?
The friend that Dick Cheney shot reportedly has physical damages still. I am really hurting and so are others who are defamed and falsely accused. That is why we need access to courts.
Kay, I just want you to know that I completely disagree with your opinion on who should or shouldn’t be allowed a PPO. I respect your right to have an opinion based on your own experience, but you completely exclude many occasions when a PPO against a stranger might be warranted. Because of this, I am not going to debate or be forced to explain what “tried to run over” means …. read the news article…the Petkov woman is a complete menace to her neighbors.
PPO’s against strangers are allowed when they are requested by a prosecutor pursuant to a criminal prosecution.
PP0 statutes vary a lot from state to state. A friend from California said a woman he hardly knew and had only dated a few times applied for one against him and that it was almost like a break up and then automatically dissolved in six months.
A PPO is a form of an injunction. Any injunction is supposed to require a statute, a motion, a written hearing, and an order that states the reason as well as the order and does not simply refer to another document. When it is not requested by the government there is supposed to be a bond. They use short cut — summary — procedure for certain types of injunctions i.e. domestic and that is where most of the problems come up.
When I went to court w Jane Bennett v. Kay Sieverding, a PPO that cost me probably $ 1 Million, I was not told what evidence would be presented and the decision was made on what was not written, and I was only allowed 3 days advance notice, and was not offered an option of trying to get a lawyer.
One issue that came up is they claimed that I was yelling. There isn’t a public law against yelling. We were outside 30 feet apart and I think they had set me up by trying to make me mad by putting lumber on my landscaping. But I was not prepared at all for their witness testimony that I was yelling. Later I realized that one defense for the charge of “yelling” was that they claimed I yelled they were violating the constitution and the development laws and long strings of words are hard to yell. I also found that I could hear their outdoor conversations about normal events like dinner from the same locations. They had claimed I must be yelling because they could hear me from the same distance that I could later hear them talking about dinner.
“Tried to run over” does mean something. It means she didn’t hit the person and it assumes that she had intent to hit her. An attempted crime is only a crime in certain crimes. I.E. attempted murder, attempted rape and in those cases evidence is presented. Attempted extortion is not a term used in criminal law but sending threatening communications is. When criminal statutes are passed there is a lot of legislative discussion and written documents and then if the meaning is vague the courts are supposed to strike it down. They are supposed to have a public purpose One danger with injunctions is they are written by just a few people and can be vague. When injunctions are not based on statute, then there is no public purpose. In those cases, one party simply convinced a judge to change the law to affect one party only and that is a violation of fundamental rights.
Same Laws for All is the key theory and can be described as equal protection of the laws or procedural due process.
PS On further thought the Jane Bennett injunction cost me more than $ 1 Million. It forced us to sell our valuable resort real estate against our wishes. It also disrupted our interstate manufacturing companies. Then we also had associated personal damages from the defamation and conspiracy to damage reputation plus it really injured our son and that affected us.
There really aren’t any easy answers. A law could be written to allow PPO’s to restrict contact with neighbors’ children. But “protected children” could then morph into little monsters who might harass their neighbors by trespassing, setting fires, recording private conversations and images, poisoning pets etc.
I tried to get a PPO to restrict a neighbor from contact with my children but the same judge who issued the Jane Bennett v. Kay Sieverding refused that even though all I requested was a very limited court order that the neighbors not come on our property and not talk to our children.
Update: As of today, the Bitch’s children have been taken from her and sole custody goes to the father who lives elsewhere now. Lets review. … 1) Dumped by her Husband 2) Lost custody her kids 3) Husband lost his job 4) outpouring of Community good will and help for the innocent child 5)Increased donations in Kathleen’s name to Mott’s Children’s Hospital in Ann Arbor,Michigan. Bad turns to good. Free speech yes, cruelty without recriminations no. I’d say the bitch’s paybacks are just beginning! Karma, sweet Karma!
Denise If you going to post make sure you are correct.
1 Husband never left her
2 2 children were taken out of her custody
People like you sicken me. Making the internet forums free to post on for idiots like yourself to doodle gets insane.
Next time you want to report shit, make sure it is accurate dumb azz
Kathleen Edwards has passed away from Huntington’s Disease. She died yesterday evening, 11 January 2010, at the age of eleven.
Blogger “Brainwrap” has the story:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/11/1053970/-Kathleen-Edwards-has-passed-away?via=siderec
The Detroit News has the story of Kathleen Edwards’ passing. Her father is making funeral arrangements today, but she will be buried beside her mother, who died in 2009 of the same cruel disease.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120112/METRO01/201120432/Taunted-girl-Huntington-s-Disease-dies?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE