Holder Promises To Kill Citizens With Care

Attorney General Eric Holder was at Northwestern University Law School yesterday explaining President Barack Obama’s claimed authority to kill any American if he unilaterally determines them to be a threat to the nation. The choice of a law school was a curious place for discussion of authoritarian powers. Obama has replaced the constitutional protections afforded to citizens with a “trust me” pledge that Holder repeated yesterday at Northwestern. The good news is that Holder promised not to hunt citizens for sport.

Holder proclaimed that “The president may use force abroad against a senior operational leader of a foreign terrorist organization with which the United States is at war — even if that individual happens to be a U.S. citizen.” The use of the word “abroad” is interesting since senior Administration officials have asserted that the President may kill an American anywhere and anytime, including the United States. Holder’s speech does not materially limit that claimed authority. He merely assures citizens that Obama will only kill those of us he finds abroad and a significant threat. Notably, Holder added “Our legal authority is not limited to the battlefields in Afghanistan.”

The Obama Administration continues to stonewall efforts to get it to acknowledge the existence of a memo authorizing the killing of Awlaki. Democrats previously demanded the “torture memos” of the Bush Administration that revealed both poor legal analysis by Judge Jay Bybee and Professor John Yoo to justify torture. Now, however, Democrats are largely silent in the face of a president claiming the right to unilaterally kill citizens.

Holder became particularly cryptic in his assurance of caution in the use of this power, insisting that they will kill citizens only with “the consent of the nation involved or after a determination that the nation is unable or unwilling to deal effectively with a threat to the United States.” What on earth does that mean?

He was more clear in establishing that due process itself is now defined differently than it has been defined by courts since the start of this Republic. He declared that “a careful and thorough executive branch review of the facts in a case amounts to ‘due process.’” Of course, from any objective standpoint, that statement is absurd and Orwellian. It is basically saying that “we will give the process that we consider due to a target.” His main point was that “due process” will now longer mean “judicial process.”

That last statement goes to the heart of the controversy. Many reporters have bought into the spin of the Administration that there are real limits to this power because they perform their own constitutional analysis for each killing. This starts with the presumption that the Constitution does not require these determinations to be made by a court or that they be subject to court review. They then redefine the protections of due process as a balancing test within the administration. This Administration has consistently maintained that courts do not have a say in such matters. Instead, they simply define the matter as covered by the Law Of Armed Conflicts (LOAC), even when the conflict is a war on terror. That war, they have stressed, is to be fought all around the world, including the United States. It is a battlefield without borders as strikes in other countries have vividly demonstrated.

The result is that they are claiming that they are following self-imposed “limits” which are meaningless — particularly in a system that is premised on the availability of judicial review. The Administration has never said that the LOAC does not allow the same powers to be used in the United States. It would be an easy thing to state. Holder can affirmatively state that the President’s inherent power to kill citizens exists only outside of the country. He can then explain where those limits are found in the Constitution and why they do not apply equally to a citizen in London or Berlin.

All the Administration has said is that they closely and faithfully follow their own guidelines — even if their decision are not subject to judicial review. The fact that they say those guidelines are based on notions of due process is meaningless. They are not a constitutional process of review. They are a dressed claim of process for a unilateral power. Presumably, the President can override the panel or disregard the panel. The panel is an extension of his claim of inherent unilateral authority.

If the “limit” is the internal review described by the administration, we are speaking a different language. Any authoritarian measure can be dressed up as carefully executed according to balancing tests, but that does not constitute “fifth amendment analysis,” “fourth amendment analysis,” or any constitutional analysis that I know of. It is at best a loose analogy to constitutional analysis.

This is precisely why the Framers rejected the “trust me” approach to government, as discussed in this column.

Since last year, U.S. drones have killed three Americans overseas.

Source: LA Times

213 thoughts on “Holder Promises To Kill Citizens With Care

  1. How in the hell can a single legal opinion drafted by administration lawyers have any weight of law? I have never understood the Power afforded to OLC memos. Holder should actually disclose this authority for real legal scrutiny. We can kill citizens we don’t like, but we can’t prosecute torturers who are citizens?

  2. These drones have also been used in our country (USA). So far only to spy on people that they describe as “anti-government”.
    Once people get used to that then I guess they can arm them and kill citizens here also.

    Wonder if Holder brought up operation Fast & Furious where they gave weapons to people they KNEW to be criminals in Mexico, and then were used to kill Federal agents.

    Looks like we need to send a drone after Holder! ;)

  3. My husband who is a Northwestern Law graduate and an Obama supporter says he is appalled that we have gotten to this point. A former marine tweeted that all you have to do is read it to see that the terrorists won.

  4. Long past time to weep for the Constitution and our nation.

    Too bad our leaders all have to trample on the Constitution to gain the stature they crave.

    “Defenders of democracy”, feh.

  5. “The president may use force abroad against a senior operational leader of a foreign terrorist organization with which the United States is at war — even if that individual happens to be a U.S. citizen.”

    Awlaki’s 16-year-old son was a senior operational leader of a foreign terrorist organization?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/anwar-al-awlakis-family-speaks-out-against-his-sons-deaths/2011/10/17/gIQA8kFssL_story.html
    “U.S. officials said they were still assessing the results of the strike Monday evening to determine who was killed.”
    They are saying that they didn’t know who they were firing at when they pushed the button.

  6. rafflaw:

    “We can kill citizens we don’t like, but we can’t prosecute torturers who are citizens?”

    there is the rub, if you prosecute the torturers then you cannot kill the citizens. Makes perfect sense to me.

    By the way I am offering bumper stickers which have a little laser reflective bullseye on them and the slogan “I own a weapon and I vote”. It would make a great gift for your conservative friends, just dont tell them the bullseye is laser reflective.

  7. “A former marine tweeted that all you have to do is read it to see that the terrorists won.” -Swarthmore mom

    And he is right.

  8. It is time to draft a new constitution that is based on our current living in the world’s most powerful country rather than the new republic that broke ties with the empire of the day. The intellectual dishonesty and useless legal effort to make it seem that we live in a free society is devastating to our moral self-knowledge and social health. The truth is that we are in a legal and moral darkness that has unnerved us as a free people and we will soon be at war among ourselves. Our general government and the powerful are preparing for the events that follow such alienation and darkness. The sovereignty of the people is being extinguished by our representatives, corporations, and judges.

  9. According to the Washington Post, Holder has said: “a careful and thorough executive branch review of the facts in a case amounts to ‘due process.'” That is an outright lie. As an attorney, he knows that is a lie. I am a law student, and I know that is a lie. It is well established that due process requires (1) notice to the party whose rights may be infringed and (2) an opportunity for that party to be heard, confront accusers, and refute the charges against him or her. It is purely and simply a lie to say that a unilateral, secret decision by an executive branch agency constitutes due process. This administration’s policies are revolting. I will not vote for Obama again.

  10. “The good news is that Holder promised not to hunt citizens for sport.” -Jonathan Turley

    Well then he’d better take a good, hard look at what’s going on domestically. Different twists and methods, similar outcome, in some cases.

  11. Sorry, but I have to disagree and support Holder on this one. I hardly think that killing an American citizen who is in the company of those who are waging war against the US is a bad thing. It is not as though the person was simply hitchiking, had NO idea of who his companions were, and was killed. Even then, in an active war zone such as north Yemen, an American citizen cannot claim immunity from being killed by us. For an example, if during WWII an American citizen was visiting Hitler, and the US dropped a bomb on Hitler and killed the American, that is not a crime. Let’s get real!

    Plus the US through the CIA has been actively murdering US citizens for years with no outcry. Hell they even brought the war to Washington DC and killed an American with a bomb. The real crime of that was that the people killed were NOT engaged in anything other than political activity. They were NOT engaged in armed actions or terrorism as the current targets are.

    If the people who were killed or who are targeted were simply handing out leaflets and their organization were devoted to only political activity, I would agree that they are exempt from such targeting. The FACT is that they are acting in concert with those who are waging war. They get what they deserve.

  12. It is very interesting and no longer surprising to me that so many liberal people I know that would have gone ballistic if a similar argument was made from the Bush Justice Department and White House have basically zipped their lips when this sort of thing comes from the Obama Administration.

  13. insisting that they will kill citizens only with “the consent of the nation involved or after a determination that the nation is unable or unwilling to deal effectively with a threat to the United States.” What on earth does that mean?

    It means they can and will do what they want and they can justify it because they said so….

  14. No What it means is that if there is no way to take them into custody and subject them to the process of law, we can use other means to take them out. That is what cops do all the time and nobody gets upset when a cop shoots an armed criminal or suspect who refuses to surrender.

  15. Arthur, since you seem to approve, or anyone, since the US has been assassinating for decades, what’s the point of Holder trying to justify it? Running scared from the DFHs? I doubt it. Why bring this more out in the open when the essence of Obama’s warmongering is to run roughshod over critics. Maybe in a perverse way just burnishing Obama’s tough guy cred?

  16. Arthur Randolf Erb:

    isnt the distinction the specific targeting of an American citizen? If the American is in Germany and gets killed as collateral damage that is a far cry from being actively targeted.

    Wouldnt it be better to send a team in to do a snatch and grab and if the guy gets killed in a firefight at least the intent was to bring him to trial. With a missile the only intent is to kill. A small distinction but the guy would have the opportunity to surrender and be brought to trial.

    I understand your position and agree that someone who makes war on you deserves no better than to be treated like a beast and dispatched by all means necessary for your survival but if the person is a citizen of your country doesnt he have the right to a trial? I guess you could make the case that once he has taken up arms against his country, he has forfeited the right of citizenship and therefore is under no protection or obligations from society.

    If I had the power, I would not do it. I would grab them.

  17. and this is how it ends, not with a bang, not with a whimper but with us all standing & reciting the pledge of allegiance in unison. Worst is what choice do we have? The alternatives being offered to Obama are so much worse as to be laughable (except it really isn’t funny is it?). We have to hold on to the hope that sanity can survive in some small cracks and that we not elect a told sociopath before we can correct the mistakes of the last 2 decades.

    But even then the damage is already done. The first sociopath that takes power will simply ignore the changes and cite the old abuse as precedent to justify their actions.

  18. I do not approve of what the US and CIA did in murdering Americans abroad who were politically inconvenient. A short list of just a few is Charles Horman who was mudered by the Pinochet regime in Chile, Ben Linder who was working on a rural electrification project in Nicaragua, Ronnie Moffet who was murdered by a bomb in the car or Letelier in Washington DC, the many American correspondents who were injured at the press conference in rural Nicaragua by a CIA bomb. and the list goes on. There are many others during the Cold War especially in Greece and other places.

    If you will notice, that ALL of them were engaged in legal peaceful activities and had committed NO crime at all against the US or others. In contrast, the targeted killings now are against those who killed over 3000 innocent people in the US. I think that most rational people can understand the difference between them. Such targeted people can turn themselves into US authorites or stop their activities of waging war against the US. They have that chance. It is like a criminal who is armed and refuses to surrender to the cops. They have every right to use deadly force and kill that suspect. The same is true for these US citizens who are active combatants against us.

  19. Mar 6, 2012

    Attorney General Holder defends execution without charges

    By Glenn Greenwald

    http://www.salon.com/2012/03/06/attorney_general_holder_defends_execution_without_charges/singleton/

    Excerpt:

    In sum, Holder’s attempt to make this all seem normal and common should insult anyone with the most basic understanding of American law. As The New York Times put it when first confirming the assassination program in April, 2010: ” The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen. . . . It is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be approved for targeted killing, officials said. A former senior legal official in the administration of George W. Bush said he did not know of any American who was approved for targeted killing under the former president.” To date, not a single such citizen has been identified.

    As always, the most important point to note for this entire debate is how perverse and warped it is that we’re even having this “debate” at all. It should be self-negating — self-marginalizing — to assert that the President, acting with no checks or transparency, can order American citizens executed far from any battlefield and without any opportunity even to know about, let alone rebut, the accusations. That this policy is being implemented and defended by the very same political party that spent the last decade so vocally and opportunistically objecting to far less extreme powers makes it all the more repellent. That fact also makes it all the more dangerous, because — as one can see — the fact that it is a Democratic President doing it, and Democratic Party officials justifying it, means that it’s much easier to normalize: very few of the Party’s followers, especially in an election year, are willing to make much of a fuss about it at all.

    And thus will presidential assassination powers be entrenched as bipartisan consensus for at least a generation; let no Democrat who is now supportive or even silent be heard to object when the next Republican President exercises this power in ways that they dislike.

    (End of excerpt)

  20. A question for Arthur…

    You wrote “If the people who were killed or who are targeted were simply handing out leaflets and their organization were devoted to only political activity, I would agree that they are exempt from such targeting. The FACT is that they are acting in concert with those who are waging war. They get what they deserve.”

    Here’s my question…

    How do you know what the FACTS are? How do you know anything more than what you have been told? Where is the evidence to support these FACTS? Does the pronouncement of the president or another member of the executive branch alone qualify the assertion as FACT?

    OK…I admit it. Those questions are rhetorical. The answers (in order): You don’t know what the facts are. You don’t know anything more than what you have been told. You have seen no actual evidence that establishes these alleged FACTS. And no, the pronouncement of the king and the king’s servants does not qualify those pronouncements as FACTS.

    You might recall that the Magna Carta subjected even kings to the rule of law. The days of “off with their heads!” was no more. You have no issues with the executive claiming the ultimate power of life and death, acting as prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner? Really?

  21. TPM2012
    Obama, Romney And Gingrich Agree: The Government Doesn’t Need A Court To Kill You
    Ryan J. Reilly
    March 6, 2012
    http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/03/obama-romney-and-gingrich-agree-the-us-can-kill-us-citizens.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

    Excerpt:Something odd happened Monday. An Obama administration official delivered a major speech outlining the president’s position on a national topic that has been the subject of intense debate. Yet the Republican field was largely silent.

    Why? Because when it comes to allowing a group of government officials to decide to target accused terrorists with lethal stikes — a death panel, if you will — President Barack Obama and Republican candidates are largely on the same page.

    As Attorney General Eric Holder laid out in a speech in Chicago, the Obama administration believes that U.S. citizens can be targeted for killing under certain circumstances and that an executive branch review of the evidence against a subject of targeted killing counts as due process under the Constitution.

    While most of the Republican candidates haven’t gone into great detail about the legal reasoning behind their views on executive power, two Republican presidential candidates still in the race — Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich — are on the record in support of targeted killing. Ron Paul is a definite “no,” while Rick Santorum didn’t answer the New York Times survey. Santorum’s spokeswoman didn’t immediately respond to TPM’s request for comment.

  22. The FACTS are that they were killed in Al Qeda controlled territory and in company with their combatants. THAT is totally uncontested by any party to this. In fact, letting the public know that such people are wanted by the US and subject to attack is a rather decent thing since it gives them fair warning and a chance to turn themselves in if they feel it is wrong.

  23. “Rule of law?” Surely you jest… (Whatever “rule of law” remains, it’s merely window dressing…)

    Why aren’t Americans demanding to know the details about the domestic program about which Ron Wyden has spoken. The silence is deafening.

    The beginning of Greenwald’s article:

    Attorney General Holder defends execution without charges

    By Glenn Greenwald on Mar 6, 2012

    http://www.salon.com/2012/03/06/attorney_general_holder_defends_execution_without_charges/singleton/

    Excerpt:

    In a speech at Northwestern University yesterday, Attorney General Eric Holder provided the most detailed explanation yet for why the Obama administration believes it has the authority to secretly target U.S. citizens for execution by the CIA without even charging them with a crime, notifying them of the accusations, or affording them an opportunity to respond, instead condemning them to death without a shred of transparency or judicial oversight. The administration continues to conceal the legal memorandum it obtained to justify these killings, and, as The New York Times‘ Charlie Savage noted, Holder’s “speech contained no footnotes or specific legal citations, and it fell far short of the level of detail contained in the Office of Legal Counsel memo.” But the crux of Holder’s argument as set forth in yesterday’s speech is this:

    Some have argued that the president is required to get permission from a federal court before taking action against a United States citizen who is a senior operational leader of Al Qaeda or associated forces. This is simply not accurate. “Due process” and “judicial process” are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process.

    When Obama officials (like Bush officials before them) refer to someone “who is a senior operational leader of Al Qaeda or associated forces,” what they mean is this: someone the President has accused and then decreed in secret to be a Terrorist without ever proving it with evidence. The “process” used by the Obama administration to target Americans for execution-by-CIA is, as reported last October by Reuters, as follows:

    American militants like Anwar al-Awlaki are placed on a kill or capture list by a secretive panel of senior government officials, which then informs the president of its decisions . . . There is no public record of the operations or decisions of the panel, which is a subset of the White House’s National Security Council . . . Neither is there any law establishing its existence or setting out the rules by which it is supposed to operate.

    As Leon Panetta recently confirmed, the President makes the ultimate decision as to whether the American will be killed: “[The] President of the United States obviously reviews these cases, reviews the legal justification, and in the end says, go or no go.”

    So that is the “process” which Eric Holder yesterday argued constitutes “due process” as required by the Fifth Amendment before the government can deprive of someone of their life: the President and his underlings are your accuser, your judge, your jury and your executioner all wrapped up in one, acting in total secrecy and without your even knowing that he’s accused you and sentenced you to death, and you have no opportunity even to know about, let alone confront and address, his accusations; is that not enough due process for you? At Esquire, Charles Pierce, writing about Holder’s speech, described this best: “a monumental pile of crap that should embarrass every Democrat who ever said an unkind word about John Yoo.”

  24. Arthur Randolph Erb

    HOW would you know that these people are guilty of ANYTHING!?!?!

    Oh, that’s right, you believe everything the government tells you….

    Are you serious?

    If they are guilty, arrest them extradite them, and PROVE in a court of law that they are guilty.
    NOT a drone strike where other people besides the “target” are killed as collateral damage.

    Bush supports torture, but then when pix of torture are found he sends OUR TROOPS to prison for HIS policies. But Obama refuses to do anything about it!?!? WHY does he think people voted him into office? To get this type crap stopped.

  25. If you read Greenwald’s latest piece, you’ll note that the Obama administration is, without question, trampling on Article III, section II and III, and also the 5th, 6th, and 14th amendments. America seems to be losing itself completely.

  26. If these wanted Americans were in western Europe or some other country which had some control over all their territory, THEN it would be criminal to use deadly force to simply kill them. The FACT is that these people are waging war against the US, we have NO means to apprehend or subject them to the rule of law, and in such cases common sense dictates such a policy as Holder put forward. As for collateral damage, you sit down with active combatants, you can reasonably expect to get shot at as well. Give us a break!

  27. Arthur Erb:

    “8 USC 1481 U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship.
    3. entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);”

    they have definitely done that. So I guess you are right. Whack the motherflockers.

    “I think Congress should have the balls to codify the joining of terrorist organizations as a voluntary act of expatriation. Once they do, we will no longer have to deal with this “but he is a U.S. Citizen” bullshit.

    Take up arms against me, you are my enemy. My right to preserve my life, and the life of other members of my society, grant me all the legal power I need to take you out before you do the same to me.”

    anonymous posting found on another site

    I might point out that the writing is very Lockean in nature.

  28. Bron,

    I might point out that statute requires participation in the state sponsored armed forces of a country engaged in hostilities against the U.S., not just having connections to bad people acting under no state sanction. Unless that nexus of joining a state sponsored actor is met, they have definitely not done that.

  29. The US is FAR freer today, than when I was growing up during the McCarthy era and Humphrey was trying to pass laws making political memebership in the CPUSA a crime. It is freer than when the US put many members of the SWP and the CPUSA in prison for their political views. I no longer have to smuggle illegal books into the US. Books are no longer bought up and destroyed by the US government. I no longer have to dodge bullets fired into people homes by police sponsored terrorists in Houston. Ask some black activists if they are more free today than in the past. I think that you will find that while not perfect, and a lot of ways to go, we are still trying to form a more perfect union in a violent and dangerous world.

  30. charlieali,
    Is suggesting abandoning the constitution an act of insurrection and treason?
    Let’s hope not.
    I support what you wrote. It’s time to start over again as Jefferson suggested.
    Every twenty years is too often, but it needs to be done now.

  31. Arthur, if your idea of a “more perfect union” involves the destruction of the U.S. constitution, then you may be right.

  32. I find it kind of ironic that it’s two black guys, Obama and Holder, who are the front men for this authoritarian, totalitarian charade that makes a mockery of liberty and law in the service of democracy. Right?

    To those who support the policy based on analogies to citizens on a foreign battle field, that’s pretty clear, but does not address what’s at stake here. If the CIA and cohorts have no problem targeting overseas before, what’s the necessity to take it further at the expense of a tortured truncation of the Constitution. Because critics have actually had the temerity to challenge the principle in court?

    Let’s not be naive: Obama has doubled down on Bush era excess, while lulling the gullible with smoothly crafted words.

    Brought to you by two black guys. How poignant.

  33. What would you call putting people in prison because of their political views? How about sponsoring terrorism by state authorities? How about banning some books? There is a whole litany of real violations of the Constitution that went on before this. We have progressed significantly from those bad old days. How about looking at that fact?

  34. Arthur says, “We have progressed significantly from those bad old days.” Those sorts of comparisons are not useful; tantamount to ‘we’re not as bad as we could be”, or ” . . . used to be”. Where there has been progress, terrific. Where there is none, or even regression — and we have the knowledge that indicts this downward trend, even if only a ‘part’ of the picture, it deserves rebuke. Ignoring condemnatory specifics because (you) see and overall upward trend, is a tendentious way to argue.

    I acknowledge areas of progress. I find it curious to argue for authoritarian trends, at all, in the supposed ‘shining light on the hill’.

  35. Obama for his souls sake had better repent. If he does not will lose eternal Joy. Giving joy gets joy, but wanting, and n giving death gets death to the body, and soul that wants to give it. Obama is not valuing the intangible things of heaven, hence not having heaven in him.

  36. I wonder what tune will be sung here after that first citizen-suicide bomber blows up a daycare center.

  37. anon nurse,

    “a monumental pile of crap that should embarrass every Democrat who ever said an unkind word about John Yoo.”

    Nailed it.

  38. Mitt Romney: “Yes, I would sign NDAA.”

    Ah… so “two wrongs make…”… everything a-okay…

  39. Dredd,

    He did, didn’t he…

    Perhaps I’ve missed it in the posting and/or subsequent comments, but it has to be said: Our policies and tactics are most certainly radicalizing people, both citizens and non-citizens alike.

  40. Arthur, how about putting people to death without charge, trial, judge, or jury. How about looking at that fact? Almost makes those bad ol’ days seem like the good ol’ days.

  41. I listened to part of his speach to Northwestern Law School. He made a big point of stressing the administration’s stance that “due process” does not mean the same thing as “judicial process”. That’s the money shot. I predict the SCOTUS will be quoting him someday. It makes me laugh about all the hair pulling over warrentless wiretaps under Bush; especially when a system of secret judges existed to review them warrant applications. Now it seems we can grease people with zippo review. Just because he’s not as big a tool as his predecessor doesn’t mean our commander in cheif doesn’t have his own facist kink.

  42. anon nurse 1, March 6, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Dredd,

    He did, didn’t he…

    Perhaps I’ve missed it in the posting and/or subsequent comments, but it has to be said: Our policies and tactics are most certainly radicalizing people, both citizens and non-citizens alike.
    =================================
    One good thing, we are not the Democrats who Charles Pierce was talking about when he said that, because we have applied the American principles against Bush II and Obama I equally.

    Thanks for the link.

  43. No one thinks beyond this life. Have humans think beyond this life knowing that the consequences of doing bad acts like a boomerang back at them killing their soul. Have humans know this and no one would do bad to Anyone.

  44. No one should put anyone to death for anything. Humans that die being condemned too death themselves will be highly inclined to kill thinking it is good. God says thou shalt not kill. That law has been displayed all over the place, but humans ignore it. God says that so we will save our soul.

  45. … nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law Obama.

    I like the old version better. I bet SCOTUS will, too– if they get to rule on it.

  46. This doctrine expounded by Holder has been iterated quite well since 1865. John Wilkes Booth expounded it as he hit the stage after shooting a man he thought to be treasonous.

  47. Jonathan Hughes:

    “Evil is bad.”:

    *****************

    Thank you for that profound theological thought. I bet you’ve got a million of ’em.

    By the way, I hear Jesus also said, “Hey, you Philistine! Move your ass. Mine’s coming through,” but it’s only a rumor.

  48. Whoever has what Jesus would not endorse is an idol worshiper just like Philistines who worshiped Dragon a fish god. They were warmongers. See whoever that has a militarily, and see the same. See evil in one of its many destructive oppressing forms. The Philistines were not interested in saving the soul.That’s is why they were warmongers.

  49. the usa is not a democracy. its people are called citizens, but civilians would be more appropriate.

    if you vote for politicians, and allow them to rule you, they will, for their own convenience. you can whine about the constitution, but the constitution created the power of politicians to rule you.

    it is as simple as this: if you want government for the people, it must be government by the people. this is called ‘democracy,’ you ain’t got it, and until you get it, you are at the mercy of politicians and deserve it.

  50. If I flee the country to escape this impending fascist nightmare, I’ll be sure to keep my mouth shut about what’s going on here… May Mr. Holder proudly sport that fasces in the DoJ seal…

  51. I don’t understand why liberal democrats (present company excluded) are for the most part silent at this outrage. What to do in 2012…personally I will hold my nose and vote for Obama if there’s a chance Romney or worse could win.

    How sadly ironic that a former constitutional law professor has authorized this. I guess people have become inured to the trampling of our civil rights after 8 years of the former admin.

    When did the legislative branch declare war on Al Qaeda? Not being snarky. Could we declare war on a non-state group? If we could, wouldn’t it strengthen the ability to have executions of Al Qaeda operatives’ execution pass muster?

  52. Attorney General Eric Holder Defends Legality of Targeted Killings of U.S. Citizens Overseas

    http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/6/attorney_general_eric_holder_defends_legality

    Excerpt:

    AMY GOODMAN:

    In keeping with White House policy, during his remarks Holder refused to even confirm the existence of the CIA-Joint Special Operations Command drone program that carried out the attacks. Holder’s speech was widely seen as the Obama administration’s response to a hail of criticism and legal challenges after more than two years of keeping its assassination program under a cloak of secrecy.

    Last month, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit seeking the release of government records on the drone strikes that killed the U.S. citizens in Yemen last year. The suit alleges the government has failed to adequately respond to the Freedom of Information Act requests and has unfairly invoked state secrecy privilege in refusing to disclose the information. The New York Times has filed a similar suit.

    For more, we’re joined by Hina Shamsi, director of the American Civil Liberties Union’s National Security Project.

    … and the interview continues

  53. Jonathan Hughes:

    “They were warmongers. See whoever that has a militarily, and see the same.”

    *********************

    13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
    14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[a] have for his servant?”

    15 The commander of the LORD’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

    ~Joshua 5

    You little apostate, you.

  54. mespo,

    Yes, I know, but I swear to Zeus, I’m going to fight it.

    By the way, that Joshua 5 response was truly elegant but I suspect it flew right over the poster’s head.

  55. @Bathsheba

    The liberal democrats don’t complain about this sort of thing because they can’t see that Obama is holding the neocon status quo — people who will “hold their nose and vote for Obama” contribute to the country’s movement to the right. Obama isn’t better than the other guy — he is the other guy. They see the (D) after his name and assume that voting for him is the only way to fight against a neocon take over. But that takeover has already happened…

    There are no liberal democrats anymore. The 2000 elections killed the last vestiges of the progressive movement, and Obama’s presidency has put the nail in the coffin. Al gore should have called for protests in the streets after the Supreme Court stopped the recount, but instead he rolled over like every other spineless democrat.

    The only alternative I can see at the present is to vote “no confidence” in 2012 by voting for yourself as a write-in. If you abstain from voting out of protest, nobody can distinguish the angry from the apathetic. If you vote for Democrats or Republicans, you’re part of the problem: if you’re like most Americans, you view polarization as a problem, but your solution is… more polarization. Vote “no confidence” and pass it along.

  56. Maybe some of the Nut Jobs in DC should volunteer for their own interpretations of the Law.

    What happened to our Constitution and Bill Of Rights? What happened to America? We will not survive another 4 years of this tyranny.

  57. Hey Jonathan Hughes. Correction:

    “No one should put anyone to death for anything…”
    God’s word does not say this. You need to read Leviticus.

    “God says thou shalt not kill…”
    Actually it is, “Thou shalt not Murder.” Big difference.

    “God says that so we will save our soul.”
    No. God says to believe in His Son. Whomever shall call upon his name shall be saved.

  58. My wife and I are moving a couple of miles away from the future Oxford prison FEMA camp in WIsconsin. Like Merry says in Lord of the Rings, ” the closer you are to danger, the less it will find you…..”.

  59. Had Gods word wanted to kill anyone for anything the word made flesh that dwelt among us would have made that abundantly clear that he wanted killing. Jesus showed us no such thing.. He healed humans dried tears, and did all good things to humans.
    Humans that are anointed by God do not kill they
    kjv,
    :Isaiah 61;1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

    and,

    Luke 4:18 ;18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    kjv,
    Not even a hunt of killing in it. Why then do humans use Gods name to kill?

    That makes what you think to kill anyone a lie originating from the devil. killing. Hate to God is murder.

    1 John 3:15 ;Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: Pretty clear isn’t it? Please teach others.

    There is no truth in you. Jesus is God KJV, PHILIPPIANS 2 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    That is Jesus who is God without his glory. When he comes back it will be with power,and great glory.
    John 20;28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    Matthew 24:30;:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    There will be those that say Lord, Lord, but they will be rejected. Being saved is a lot more than that.
    Matthew 12;50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    Whosoever must have Jesus in them. Don’t and have the form of godliness without the power thereof.,

  60. Had Gods word wanted to kill anyone for anything the word made flesh that dwelt among us would have made that abundantly clear that he wanted killing. Jesus showed us no such thing.. He healed humans dried tears, and did all good things to humans.
    Humans that are anointed by God do not kill they
    kjv,
    :Isaiah 61;1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

    and,

    Luke 4:18 ;18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    kjv,
    Not even a hunt of killing in it. Why then do humans use Gods name to kill?

    That makes what you think to kill anyone is a lie originating from the devil Hate to God is murder.

    1 John 3:15 ;Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: Pretty clear isn’t it? Please teach others.

    There is no truth in you. Jesus is God KJV, PHILIPPIANS 2 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    That is Jesus who is God without his glory. When he comes back it will be with power,and great glory.
    John 20;28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    Matthew 24:30;:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    There will be those that say Lord, Lord, but they will be rejected. Being saved is a lot more than that.
    Matthew 12;50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    Whosoever must have Jesus in them. Don’t and have the form of godliness without the power thereof.,

  61. Jonathan Hughes:

    “Had Gods word wanted to kill anyone for anything the word made flesh that dwelt among us would have made that abundantly clear that he wanted killing. Jesus showed us no such thing…”

    ************************

    13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [a]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [b]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

    ~Revelations 19:13-15

    In developing your keen analysis of sacred scripture do you ever read the Bible?

  62. Let’s see. Things that remain ignored by most, in this discussion:

    1. The United States of America has not declared a war against anyone since the 1940s. So any talk of someone doing something in a ‘state of war’ is not valid. Congress declares war. We are not at war.

    2. If you suspect that a U.S. citizen has taken up arms against his country, it is NOT legal to murder him, even in wartime. You can execute him only after you have proven his guilt in court.
    If the U.S. citizen is attempting to murder another citizen, at that moment, you may take his life to protect yourself or others. None of these extra-judicial killings featured any imminent danger to anyone.

    3. Discussing how things have improved in other areas of U.S. justice has nothing to do with the subject of killing U.S. citizens without trial. We’re only talking about the latter, in this discussion.

  63. mespo727272 The sword coming from the mouth of Jesus is his word. Humans of flesh,and blood desperately want it to be a physical sword.

    Gods light shining on those that love darkness is perceived by the wicked to be Gods wrath. Know the spirit of God who is Jesus before you open the K,J,V bible. Jesus does not even throw a grain of sand.

  64. Gene H. I am showing you where it says, I am anointed in the old, and new testament. You don’t grasp the seriousness of my words. Eternity for some strange reason means nothing to you. Give good get good.

  65. Jonathan Hughes,

    You’ve mistaken me for somebody interested in your proselytism of your bronze age fantasy book of fairy tales. Jesus was a wise teacher and said some really cool things, but most of you holier than thou self-labeled Christians really missed the point. I’m like Gandhi. I like your Christ, but you Christians? Not so much with the exceptions of ones like Oro Lee who actually understood what they read in the Bible in the proper context (and pssst! The proper context isn’t that the Bible is the literal word of God). But I’ll never be one of you. You waste your time and distract from a very important topic being discussed in this thread: the erosion of the the civil rights owed to all American citizens by matter of Constitutional law.

    Jesus ain’t got nothin’ to do with it.

  66. Haha, I told my stupid boss today that Obama was more right-wing than George W. Bush. How very right I was. He of course got pissed as hell. He is too stupid to tell the truth, but he knows that I am smart and do not say things out of hand. That is what unnerves him.

  67. Bob Kauten, your points are valid and they reinforce how great the divergence from the law and democratic principles these new policies are. As those policies are codified by the President and Congress into new laws to supersede previous laws our democracy is degraded.

  68. Jonathan Hughes is at least on the right track, I’d rather have him telling us what his god wants than Tootie; her god was hate filled and vicious. Am I the only one here that remembers “God is love”? :-)

  69. Jonathan Hughes,

    Do you amass points in some mystical, mythical system for the number of religious proclamations you write? No human is reading this off-topic proselytizing you’re posting. It’s unreadable and boring.

    Do you really think that your invisible friend is reading the comments on this blog, and giving you credit for them? Does this count as ‘testifying’?

    Your endless monologue is not effective in converting me to whatever odd book-worshiping you’re into. My only reaction is annoyance, from having to scroll down further to find something meaningful. Like that last post from Gene H. Now THAT was good.

    I already worship ‘Catch-22,’ by Joseph Heller. The Flying Spaghetti Monster revealed it to me.

  70. Ever since Adam,and Eve passing the buck humans have been at war. Our country was built on war.That is an oxymoronic statement for nothing good can be built from something that is destructive. By having a military, police,and condemning legal system there has been a silent war going on with police killing humans one at a time not even considering the eternal consequence. If that is not being in a military state I don’t know what is. That means the world is anti Christ. The world needs to wake up.

  71. Lottakatz The Loving Lord that made all good things for this body that can do no good thing is in you loving like God loves.Your soul is safe to live peaceably with all men forever. You give joy, and will therefore receive joy.

  72. Obama is not holding the neocon status quo – he is propelling it forward (or backward). Even Bush II never claimed the right to kill Americans without judicial process. Remember when all the liberals/progressives talked about how horrible Bush II was when he refused to grant clemency to Karla Faye Tucker? He was terrible but that was nothing compared to targeting Americans for capital punishment without any evidence made known to the public and certainly without anything approaching judicial process. And while this assault is going on against our very basic rights, the liberals/progressives are knocking themselves out over Limbaugh.

    How are people who kill a 16 year-old boy anything other than psychopaths? We don’t have to wait for a Romney or a Santorum to be elected; the psychos are here and in charge.

    And, yes, it is “ironic” that two black Democrats are leading this assault on law that has been established for centuries. It’s almost as if there were one-percenters in charge of our government and they figured out that only Nixon could go to China.

  73. Bob Kauten I am not a religion. The one that accuses is in you. Accusing is what the devil does.
    Religions are against me bowing in an idol being divided against themselves teaching one lie after another. I defend humans that humans without God want to hate. With out God making life you would not have no spaghetti to eat to turn into a substance the equivalent to the words existing your mouth that no other animal would have exiting their mouth good times or bad.

  74. Gene H. I am telling the truth nothing more, and nothing less. I am of no named religious. Therefore how could I be proselytizing? How about your stop breathing the Mythological air you never made,and stop eating from the bounty of the earth? That would kill you. You never made it. Humans make all kinds of things from Gods store house. Lucifer is in you killing your soul. Tell him in Christ name to get out of your soul . When he is gone bettor words will come out of you because better things will be in you to give.

  75. Gene H. I am telling the truth nothing more, and nothing less. I am of no named religious. Therefore how could I be proselytizing? How about you stop breathing the Mythological air you never made, and stop eating from the bounty of the earth? Humans never made it therefore by your standards it must me mythological. Humans like you value Physical things. but God values love, kindness, mercy, forgiveness these things are things you can’t touch like God. The intangible things are from God you can’t see working through humans.. Humans make all kinds of things from Gods store house. Lucifer is in you killing your soul. Tell him in Christ name to get out of your soul . When he is gone bettor words will come out of you because better things will be in you to give.

  76. Have NOT reaxd all the posts, so with the risk of repeating inadvertently………

    Has anyone realized that we have been Egyptized??????????????

    I mean, the Army has a right to hold our asses without trial, move us to secret places, hold us their incognito, with no communication to attorney, no habeas corpus, and sit on us as long as the eternal war on terror exists.

    I mean, we’ve been using NDAA as a “hot word”. How well known is that to the public? Nada.

    So let’s say INSTEAD that we have been EGYPTIZED.
    Maybe that’ll provide a clearer understanding of what has happened to us.
    And new ideas and realizations for fighting this tyranny.

    Of course the comparison with executive branch star courts, the “show trials” of “arranged” terrorists, the lethal machinations of the intelligence services, etc. can be reviewed. But another time.

    Any takers????

  77. Arthur–“Such targeted people can turn themselves into US authorites or stop their activities of waging war against the US.”

    Just curious; exactly how is a person selected for a targeted killing supposed to “turn themselves in”, when the US government is trying to kill them the moment they show their face?

  78. holder needs a hellfire missile or an IED to find him under his ride to work some day. this is NOT ACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!

  79. Jonathan Hughes:

    “Jesus does not even throw a grain of sand.”

    *************************

    14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!” 17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”

    ~John 2:15

    I guess he was fanning them.

  80. Jonathan Hughes:

    “That means the world is anti Christ. The world needs to wake up.”

    *****************

    More like a-Christian. Christianity (which is composed of about 33,820 denominations with differing orthodoxies) claims about 33% of the world’s population. The rest believe in something else or nothing at all. Good luck on “waking up” two-thirds of the world’s population to your way of believing. You’ve got your work cut out for you and, by the way, you’ve got a one in three shot of being correct, statistically speaking, and assuming only one of the mutually exclusive philosophies is correct. Here’s the estimates of the number of followers:

    1.Christianity: 2.1 billion

    2.Islam: 1.5 billion

    3.Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

    4.Hinduism: 900 million

    5.Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

    6.Buddhism: 376 million

    7.primal-indigenous: 300 million

    8.African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

    9.Sikhism: 23 million

    10.Juche: 19 million

    11.Spiritism: 15 million

    12.Judaism: 14 million

    13.Baha’i: 7 million

    14.Jainism: 4.2 million

    15.Shinto: 4 million

    16.Cao Dai: 4 million

    17.Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

    18.Tenrikyo: 2 million

    19.Neo-Paganism: 1 million

    20.Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

    21.Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

    22.Scientology: 500 thousand

  81. My ant farm didn’t see much action. Someone gave me one when I was 4 or 5… I quickly freed the ants in the backyard. Happy ants, happy “farmer”, end of ant farm…

  82. The law of man in ,and of itself is degraded. That is because the body of man can do nothing that is good .A human without the Love of God in him that despises war will have humans commit adultery against Jesus by bowing to the devil. Obama going Booya with a proud look in a white military uniform shouts that loud, and clear. Jesus is not like that, but the devil is.

  83. All I know is that if Lucifer is living in my soul, he’s a squatter. I should be charging him rent. Oh, wait, that’s right . . . Lucifer isn’t any more real than the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. I’d never be able to get him to pay on time.

  84. And AN is the supplier in 18?? who supplied carnivorous mammals to sleepless settlers on that island inhabited by flightless birds whose calls could be heard for miles.

    Many anonymous heroes in our midst.

  85. The surviving birds have been tracked in climbing over ten miles in mountainous terrain to reach a “loud” lover. Now that’s what I call working for it. Shall we ask “Viagra Lush” if he does?
    OK.OK.OK.

  86. Lotta,
    I agree that worshiping emperors makes more “sense” than science fiction writers. Of course each was running a fraud scheme. Looking at the results it’s hard to say who is the more impoverished.
    But at least one has better music and suffers no personality destruction.

  87. Petition from Firedoglake:
    “President Obama and Attorney General Holder:

    Americans deserve the right the know your justification for implementing a program to target U.S. citizens for killing without charging or trying them, so that we can have a public debate on this program.

    We the undersigned call on you to release any and all legal memos pertaining to this program immediately.

    http://action.firedoglake.com/page/s/release-the-memo?source=em&subsource=sub1

  88. I know, raff. It’s not like he can’t afford it. And if he gets in a bind, he can always borrow from Mammon.

  89. Jonathan Hughes: “The law of man in ,and of itself is degraded. That is because the body of man can do nothing that is good.”

    “In formulating any philosophy, the first consideration must always be: What can we know? That is, what can we be sure we know, or sure that we know we knew it, if indeed it is at all knowable. Or have we simply forgotten it and are too embarrassed to say anything? Descartes hinted at the problem when he wrote , “My mind can never know my body, although it has become quite friendly with my legs.” — Woody Allen

    Mephistopheles concurs.

  90. Sometimes I feel like I just returned from Vietnam yesterday, instead of forty years ago — to America, The Land that Forgot Time.

    As Bruce Hornsby sang it:

    “If these guys are the good ones, I don’t want to know the bad …
    You wonder how it happened. They just picked it up from dad?.
    Faded Old Glory, hanging like a rag —
    Defenders, defenders of the flag..”

  91. This is the best that I could do, Michael Murray. Thanks for your comment. and the Hornsby “Defender of The Flag” lyrics.

    (AY and I707, FYI: I freed those ants in East Asia… ;-) )

  92. The song this whole situation brings to my mind is something else altogether.

    “Call me Lucifer,” said the politicians, “I’m in need of some restraint.”

  93. What I mean by the body not able to do anything good is that it will not accept any living thing into it unless it kills it, and reduces it to a stinking smelly substance, and pisses out the rest. His hands cut down life so his body that kills life can live in it. Even the hair on his body is dead. The breathe if it replaced the air around him would kill him, and all life. If it was not for the things Man did not make Humans, and all life would not exist.

    The only thing that is good is the spirit of God that no man can touch living in his soul to love all even as Jesus loved.

  94. Satan is in all things that die. See a human wanting to give death to a human not being like Jesus is, and see Satan. Satan is in the sun that dies. All of the stars too.

  95. “The song this whole situation brings to my mind is something else altogether.” -Gene H.

    Gene H.,

    An excellent choice for “this whole situation”, as you said.

  96. Michael Murry; well said. While we are on the subject of tunes, here is one you may have heard before. Most of the rest of the regulars here probably have not heard it. Some things are timeless. Some things speak to the times.

  97. Jonathan Hughes:

    “The only thing that is good is the spirit of God that no man can touch living in his soul to love all even as Jesus loved.”

    *******************************

    “I will smash them one against the other, fathers and sons alike, declares the LORD. I will allow no pity or mercy or compassion to keep me from destroying them.”

    ~Jer.13:14

    “You must destroy all the peoples the LORD your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity and do not serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you.”

    ~ Deut. 7:16

    “But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the LORD had dealt them,”

    ~ 1 Sam. 6:19

    That’s one scary good Spirit there, Jonathan. I really do wish you would read this horror novel.

  98. Mespo, far too few of our Presidents have ever had to look over a gunsight at an enemy, or been shot at. Look back at history. The last was George H.W. Bush, who was a naval aviator. Harry Truman was an artilleryman. Eisenhower was a General, but never an actual combat veteran. Before Truman, it was Theodore Roosevelt, who is the only President to be awarded the Medal of Honor.

    I like to think that if more of our leaders had been in firefights or on the receiving end of a mortar barrage, they would not be so damn quick to want to send kids barely out of high school into the meat grinder.

  99. This is for Eric Holder, Mitch McConnell and all the other chickenhawks out there. Once you kill someone–and I don’t mean kill by proxy–you are changed forever. You are never the same again, cannot be the same again. Would you, Mr. Holder, be willing and able to look down a long gunbarrel and squeeze off a shot at another human being? If the answer is “no” then why the hell are you sending others to do it?

  100. AN,

    I’m gonna take heat for this but somebody’s gotta do the work since they are required to pay a living wage…..

  101. Woosty’s still a Cat 1, March 7, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    so………………, full moon tonight…………………..

    Woosty,

    Is that what it is? :-) I thought that it was a lack of sleep, among other things… Thanks for the update.

    AY,

    Color me totally dense. Do tell…

  102. China is required to pay living wages…. You released the ants…. Now they have the jobs…..

  103. But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee Deuteronomy 20:17

    Jonathan Hughes’ God of Genocide … and Love

  104. So much to comment, maybe should stay up at nights and do it then.
    Who comes back here today, Thursday? None, maybe.

    AN,
    just to finish—-where in E. Asia? My eco-sattelite is poor at scanning for ant anomalies.(Nah, just curious—we old Asia hands (smile) have to trade stories)

    OS
    LBJ was fully informed the whole time, the generals did not lie to him.
    They said it would take many, many years, and after two they said it could not be done in terms of forcing our will; but LBJ and the loyal Pentagon kept shucking the public, press, and Congress. All the above if we are to believe their own study; “Pentagon Papers”, and Ellsbergs book. His first day in the Pentagon. He, as special assistant to the man responsible for Vietnam theater, was fielding all the Flashs, from our ship in the Bay of Tonkin, during the so-called battle; coming in a 5 minutes intervals by running messengers from comm room, cuz his boss was sitting with McNamara. So he was on the inside from the beginning. He exposes what really happened ant the lies told to Congress by LBJ and to us via the press.
    I think we should trust what he writes.
    PS He chose as a good analyst, working on the Pentagon paper at McNamara’s orders, to study not the period which he had been involved with, but chose the post-WW2, where it was the French doing it with our money.

  105. Gene H. re Satan
    I’m embarrassed to write:
    Isn’t it all meant as an object lesson to believers. Type: There’s always some uppity wiseass in the group who is used to make a example.
    That was Satan. And we see what happened to him. And he’s used to bear the burden of he who puts uppity ideas in our head; like the priest is buggering my boy, etc. And the boss is a bloodsucker, etc.
    So bow your heads, how symbolic, and pray that ye not be tempted to stick up yourselves.

    Now everybody else knew this, not me, I was still stuck in the legend wondering when he was gonna visit me. but that’s another story.

  106. Jonathan Hughes,

    “What I mean by the body not able to do anything good is that it will not accept any living thing into it unless it kills it, and reduces it to a stinking smelly substance, and pisses out the rest.”

    Now I know how the world population got to seven billion!

    Mespo,

    Enjoyed all your quotes, nicely done.

  107. Messpo and OS
    They ALL knew, and are kept up to date with data and prognoses. The question of long-term viability/success never ever leaves the table. Sure there comes BS out in false reports. ARVN night patrols,,,yeah, so and so many good stuff……never happened. Ellsberg went out several times and knew thay went to bed, never a soul stirred, but the reports went in. Tha USA adviser said “We lie”, they want the reports supporting their new program. But these small lies did not effect the overall outlook.

    BS to say they did not know. The Bay of Tonkin was rigged.
    The BS fed to us all along were lies. From the Colonels in Nam, to the Generals, and Lyndon’s closest political advisors since he war kneebritches said: Get the fuck out. He did not. Why. Not even Ellsberg has an answer, that I remember, except it was not on his political agenda. Well we are left asking, who determined that for him.

    And all the apologizing done afterwards is of course political face-saving, no more than that. Myself, asking a President if he’s ready to pull the trigger on somebody wouldn’t do it. Instead put the fucker in front of a rifle aimed at him and ask if he won’t us to pull the trigger if he goes to war. That’ll do it.
    Am sure the boys dead in Vietnam and their families would applaud.

    Final thought; By the time a President is sworn in for the first time, he has sacraficed many lives, careers, friendships, and done it to get where he is.
    It’ s part of politics.

  108. TO ALL

    I say it is too late for elections, The political system is a poor, misleading farce.

    The two parties are two vultures, fighting over a half-dead corpse.

    Don’t you feel them going for your eyes, your mouth, the ears are already rendered useless. You are half-numb, stupified by pain, soon all consciousness will leave you. Enter Big Brother.

    How long will they feed on the carrion before they bring in AY’s ants?

    We think we are active participants in a democratic system. We are only the last twitchings of a dying nation.

  109. In the near future will come out a new spell-checker program.
    It will change all words to accepted new-speak, and Ministry of Truth approved doctrine. You will be graded monthly on how much the program has to change and will be rewarded accordingly in your food rations.

    Each person, allowed to circulate freely, ie in the confines of his compound, will be equipped with a “truth module” which will monitor the sound you utter tto the microphone and modify it ot Truth as needed. All encounters, both parties being so equipped, will be in the service of Truth.

    Next bulletin from the Truth Agency will come in 10 minutes. Until then, remember Truth is what we eulogize and hold highest.

  110. I think it was OS who wrote about the presidents never having been in combat (or military, for many).
    I strongly believe if we still had a draft it wouldn’t matter if the pres had been in or not because the people would be taking to the streets again because we would all be effected: everyone who has a son, daughter, uncle, father, friend who was or could be in danger of being the next victim of the war.

  111. Satan is not in sex . Movies like end of days feeds us one lie after another. Had Adam, and Eve apologized about going to the tree, and even eaten of the fruit there would be no death or any of the bad things we see today. A devil will never apologize for anything. That would mean that Adam, and Eve apologizing would not have been contaminated with the devil. The devil uses words to divide us to have us war with each other, and clothing is used by him to divide giving the illusion of us, and them. The devil wants you to fear losing your life so your flesh, and blood body will kill to try to save it losing its soul.

  112. “Satan is in all things that die.” – Jonathan Hughes, March 7, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    “Satan is not in sex .” – Jonathan Hughes, March 8, 2012 at 11:38 am

    Really.

    Your Freudian slip is showing.

  113. Jonathan Hughes:

    “The devil uses words to divide us to have us war with each other, and clothing is used by him to divide giving the illusion of us, and them.”

    ********************

    20 And the man gave his wife the name of Eve because she was the mother of all who have life. 21 And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins for their clothing.

    ~Genesis 3

    Come on Jonathan just take a look at the Cliff Notes.

  114. let me reappraise that. Names given to a human to give a human a supposed reason to shoot at them. Humans are conditioned to condemn a human called a bestialist. or zoophile or zoo , Pedo, Third gender was a favorite of humans to assault too, and Gay was another. Yiff another name for sex. Furries was a target of some. God in humans does not do that. Naked came from the devil. That is why humans respond to that word the way they do. To not respond to that name with fear will only make the devil upset.
    Look at all the flags with war blood on them. Had man not fallen we would not have war. You are making the same error Our first parents made blaming each other. You are blaming God. That lamb that died was the first animal to die. That lamb represented God who was going to die in the physical body of Jesus. What happened had significance to what God was going to do. He knew the weather would change too. The devil is in humans that die. Have us not care about nudity, and we would be more peaceful. Before Adam, and Eve fell God did not say a thing about them being nude. Humans made cultures as they call them. War seeks a vain thing. See all naked, and we will look more alike than different, and it will be humbling too. Humble is good, Right? Have all with skins, and all would still look somewhat the same. Humans made the man made materials to have us, and them making nakedness indecent. Had God wanted nakedness to be indecent he would have declared all of nature indecent, but he did not do that. The name Pedophilia separates. Hear zoosexual of bestialist, and you want to war. That is what I am talking about. Jesus who is God does not war. Jesus is heaven in us.

  115. Jonathan Hughes:

    I am starting to like your religion because you get to make it up as you go along. No need for Holy Books because whatever interpretation strikes you that day is the right one. I could get used to that.

  116. My friend, and brother a religious I am not even as Jesus was not connected to a religion. I see the loving heart of God who made all. I see beyond what others have seen. I see Jesus where others do not see him. I see him in you. I see God in the humans that are oppressed with man made laws to make them the poor in spirit. I see the light of God coming from humans in the words they speak from bodies shining light that cannot be seen with the human eye. My spiritual eyes perceive it without seeing it.

  117. My friend, and brother a religion I am not even as Jesus was not connected to a religion. I see the loving heart of God who made all. I see beyond what others have seen. I see Jesus where others do not see him. I see him in you. I see God in the humans that are oppressed with man made laws to make them the poor in spirit. I see the light of God coming from humans in the words they speak from bodies shining light that cannot be seen with the human eye. My spiritual eyes perceive it without seeing it.

  118. JH,

    Just let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you think you are Jesus? Either literally or figuratively? Do you think you are a saint or some other kind of specially chosen figure? Do you think God has sent you personally to save mankind? I’m not being facetious. I’d really like to know the answers to those questions.

  119. Brother Hughes is a mellow snowcaps kinda guy. Take a deep breath. Smell that? It ain’t incense.

    I sang with a jazz band for awhile in my late teens. The goofus (sax player) was a heavy user. About 3:00 in the morning he was always seeing Jesus everywhere. We used to find a Catholic Church in whatever city we were in and dump him in the rear pew to sleep it off. (This was back in the 60’s and Catholic Churches were never locked.) We’d tell him he was in heaven and sure enough, he’d start babbling away to Jesus who was always in the pew with him. We’d come back and get him in the morning.

    Brother Hughes reminds me of Bobbyboy.

  120. Mespo,

    I think you’ve summed up the morays of most folks actions involved in anything they seriously believe….. They will sick the life right out of you…m

  121. Richard West,

    Was it not more his disingenuous reporting that most rational people objected to?

  122. Johnathan Hughes:

    “God in humans does not do that. Naked came from the devil. That is why humans respond to that word the way they do. To not respond to that name with fear will only make the devil upset.”

    I think they respond to naked that way because most people do not look like Michelangelo’s David. If they did, I have a feeling there wouldn’t be so much worry about the word naked.

    But it is the devil, the white devils; sugar and flour which make us fear the word naked.

    Go yee and forsake yee the Hostess Twinkie and all things made by the whore Little Debbie. And be protected from temptation by the evil Alfredo and his sauce and noodles. His brother Linguine is no better.

    If you eat sugar and flour, yea though you walk through the valley you will lie down and take a nap because you are overloaded on carbs.

  123. Bron:

    “Go yee and forsake yee the Hostess Twinkie and all things made by the whore Little Debbie. And be protected from temptation by the evil Alfredo and his sauce and noodles. His brother Linguine is no better.”

    ***********************

    Stop it, Bron. You’re killing me.

  124. “Go yee and forsake yee the Hostess Twinkie and all things made by the whore Little Debbie. And be protected from temptation by the evil Alfredo and his sauce and noodles. His brother Linguine is no better.

    If you eat sugar and flour, yea though you walk through the valley you will lie down and take a nap because you are overloaded on carbs. -Bron

    Excellent, Bron… Excellent.

  125. Obama Administration Offers New Defense for Killing U.S. Citizens
    But counterterror policy raises as many questions as it answers.
    By Yochi J. Dreazen
    3/5/12
    http://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/obama-administration-offers-new-defense-for-killing-u-s-citizens-20120305

    Excerpt:
    The speech raised as many questions as it answered. Holder didn’t offer any detail about the other Americans it was pursuing, explain who in the administration needs to sign off on the killings of U.S. citizens affiliated with terror groups, or precisely define the legal terms under which Americans could be targeted. He didn’t address the operational aspects of such strikes, including whether they are carried out by the CIA or by the military’s elite Joint Special Operations Command.

    The remarks instead seemed designed to carry out a pair of related missions: reassure outside critics that lethal force would only be used against a small number of Americans — and only under a set of three specific conditions — and combat the growing perception that Obama’s counterterror policies have become more extreme than those of the Bush administration.

    It’s far from clear that Holder’s speech will pull that off. Morris Davis is a retired Air Force colonel who served as the chief prosecutor at Guantanamo Bay before resigning and becoming a harsh critic of the detention camp and the military commission process itself. In an interview, he called the new policy deeply worrisome.

    “There are those signs with Bush’s picture saying, ‘Do you miss me yet?’” he said. “I’m almost going to the point that I do. Even Bush didn’t say he had the unilateral right to kill.”

    The White House has already retained — and expanded — a host of controversial Bush-era counterterrorism programs. Obama has signed off on four times as many lethal drone strikes inside Pakistan as Bush had. The president has expanded the nation’s drone war to new battlefields in Yemen and Somalia. Guantanamo Bay remains open, and the military commissions which Obama criticized so harshly during his 2008 presidential campaign resumed last year. With the recent killings of three U.S. citizens, the Obama administration has added a new tactic that goes beyond anything put in place by the Bush White House.

    Holder offered a multi-part defense for the administration’s approval of strikes like the drone attack in Yemen last year which killed Awlaki and a second American citizen, al-Qaida propagandist Samir Khan. Awlaki’s American-born son, Abdulrahman, 16, was killed in another U.S. air strike in Yemen just weeks later.

    The attorney general said such strikes would only be carried out if three conditions were met. First, Holder said that the executive branch has to have determined that the U.S. citizen “poses an imminent threat of violent attack” against the U.S. Second, it has to involve a situation where it’s not “feasible” to capture the militant alive. Finally, the strike has to cause only minimal collateral damage and “use weapons that will not inflict unnecessary suffering.”

    “The unfortunate reality is that our nation will likely continue to face terrorist threats that, at times, originate with our own citizens,” Holder said. “When such individuals take up arms against this country and join al-Qaida in plotting attacks designed to kill their fellow Americans, there may be only one realistic and appropriate response.”

    Still, Holder gave no ground on one of the most contentious aspects of the policy: the administration’s insistence that it can decide which citizens to kill on its own and without needing any judicial review. The Constitution, he said, “guarantees due process, not judicial process.”

  126. I am not literally of figuratively Jesus, but Jesus is in this body that does not shine visible light like his body shines light..The light from Jesus is what is hell to the wicked.That light when it shines will be the end of the wicked. I am a chosen figure. A saint I am not. There is but one good, and that is Christ. A saint is an idol figure that Catholics use that turn your mind away from Jesus having eyes that do not see. Jesus is in me to save all mankind. He found me when I was at a low point in my life. He never forsook me. He showed me who is evil, and who is not in a dream. God spoke four words to me on night with no images at all. The voice said; God,is, Not ,evil . I believed those words. Then the devil was allowed to come in from the side introducing himself saying hi I am Satan smiling thinking if I was angry with God that in my mind I would accept him. He looked like any man slight of build with a wide grin trying to look as good as he could. I immediately wanted to get away from him. He repulsed me. When I awoke I vowed I would never be negitive toward God ever again. I did not want to see the face, and feel the negitive energy of that being ever again.
    The Lord God has opened my mind up more, and more ever since. The world is upside down in many ways, and needs to be made right side up. It is my goal to reduce the number of lose souls in Gog, and Magog at the final Judgment that will eliminated them from existence in Gods light when they try by force to take the city of God Revelation 20-9.kjv, The lake of fire in the vision loos like a lake of fire by reason of the multitude of lose humans being burned up in Gods light that searches the inner most thoughts of the heart.,

  127. edited;
    I am not literally of figuratively Jesus, but Jesus is in this body that does not shine visible light like his body shines light..The light from Jesus is what is hell to the wicked.That light when it shines will be the end of the wicked. I am a chosen figure. A saint I am not. There is but one good, and that is Christ. A saint is an idol figure that Catholics use that turn your mind away from Jesus having eyes that do not see. Jesus is in me to save all mankind. He found me when I was at a low point in my life. He never forsook me. He showed me who is evil, and who is not in a dream. God spoke four words to me on night with no images at all. The voice said; God,is, Not ,evil . I believed those words. Then the devil was allowed to come in from the side introducing himself saying hi I am Satan smiling thinking if I was angry with God that in my mind I would accept him. He looked like any man slight of build with a wide grin trying to look as good as he could. I immediately wanted to get away from him. He repulsed me. When I awoke I vowed I would never be negitive toward God ever again. I did not want to see the face, and feel the negitive energy of that being ever again.
    The Lord God has opened my mind up more, and more ever since. The world is upside down in many ways, and needs to be made right side up. It is my goal to reduce the number of lose souls in Gog, and Magog at the final Judgment that will eliminated them from existence in Gods light when they try by force to take the city of God Revelation 20-9.kjv, The lake of fire in the vision loos like a lake of fire by reason of the multitude of lost humans being burned up in Gods light that searches the inner most thoughts of the heart.,

  128. Bron,

    I’ll have to give you props on the Twinkie joke. That was pretty funny. I probably won’t be able to look at a box of Swiss Rolls without thinking about “the whore” who made them for quite some time.

    ********

    JH,

    You say “I am a chosen figure.”

    With that statement, I’m less concerned that you’re seeing Jesus everywhere than I am about whether or not you’re seeing a competent psychologist, psychiatrist or otherwise qualified mental health professional.

  129. gee Jonathon hughes, you are telling the “Truth”. It is exactly the mindset: that your truth is The Truth, that has led to what is going on in the middle East, and elsewhere, and the cause for innumerable wars – you know an excuse for killing. G-d gave us minds with which to think, proselytizing is just parroting. (and posting posts 2x do not make them any more true.)

    Arthur Randolph Erb, for an attorney you must have missed the class the day they taught about ‘innocent until proven guilty.”

    (sry am coming late to this post’s party.)

  130. Johnathon Hughes, in reading your diatribes I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to accomplish. The article is about the AG killing people…unjustly. You’ve gone into some left turn about Christians not killing, yet the flavor of the article is that it’s the Christians that will be killed when labeled as terrorists.

    You claim something about anointing and not killing but if you refer back to I Kings 18 you’ll note that Elijah had all the prophets of Baal rounded up and he slaughtered them at the Kishon Valley. And I do believe that Elijah was quite anointed…….

  131. 1 Kings 18;

    The Prophets of Baal, and Baalim were cutting themselves anyway. 28And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. War is sadomasochistic too. Can you guess who has engaged in it?

    The Humans that war cannot call on God, and have God do what God did to the object on the altewr. All the water, and even the rocks were consumed. That was not fire that fell on that sacrifice.That was the light of God focused on one spot.

    As it turns out the humans that have warred over history have been the equivalent of Baal, and Baalim worshipers. Never no not ever being able to do what Elijah did. How then do they even have the right to do what Elijah did? Therefore deserve the same end as the worshiper of Baal, and Baalim? It seems that the world needs to repent.

  132. 1 Kings 18;

    The Prophets of Baal, and Baalim were cutting themselves anyway. 28And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. War is sadomasochistic too. Can you guess who has engaged in it?

    The Humans that war cannot call on God, and have God do what God did to the object on the alter. All the water, and even the rocks were consumed. That was not fire that fell on that sacrifice.That was the light of God focused on one spot.

    As it turns out the humans that have warred over history have been the equivalent of Baal, and Baalim worshipers that could never do what Elijah did no not ever. How then do they even have the right to do what Elijah did? Therefore deserve the same end as the worshiper of Baal, and Baalim? It seems that the world needs to repent.

  133. Wow, Johnathon. I have no idea where you’re coming from or where you’re going but it’s clear you’ve been drinking that rainbow church koolaid. There are substantial accounts of God directing the Israelite s to kill and slaughter and blessing their obedience. If fact it was Saul’s disobedience in not annihilating the Amalekites that caused God to reject him. Your constant reference to “humans” is disconcerting, perhaps you’re a PETA protege’ ……..

    But your constantly weird diatribes aside, I think folks would prefer you stay on topic, that being Holder promising to kill citizens with care………

  134. http://www.salon.com/2012/05/18/drone_filmmaker_denied_visa/singleton/

    Friday, May 18, 2012 10:29 AM EDT

    Drone filmmaker denied visa

    A Pakistani student is unable to accept his film festival award because he is denied the right to enter the U.S.
    By Glenn Greenwald

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    [Drone filmmaker denied visa] A still image from Muhammad Danish Qasim’s film, “The Other Side.”

    Muhammad Danish Qasim is a Pakistani student at Iqra University’s Media Science and is also a filmmaker. This year, Qasim released a short film entitled The Other Side, a 20-minute narrative that “revolves around the idea of assessing social, psychological and economical effects of drones on the people in tribal areas of Pakistan.” A two-minute video trailer of the film is embedded below. The Express Tribune provided this summary of the film, including an interview with Qasim:

    The Other Side revolves around a school-going child in Miranshah, the capital of North Waziristan. The child’s neighborhood gets bombed after the people of the region are suspected for some notorious activities. He ends up losing all of his loved ones during the bombing and later becomes part of an established terrorists group who exploit his loss and innocence for their own interests.

    On the reasons for picking such a sensitive topic, the film-maker said, “Most of the films being made right now are based on social issues, so we picked up an issue of international importance which is the abrogation of our national space by foreign countries.”

    When asked how this film on terrorism will be different from all the others that have been released since 9/11, he said, “The film takes the audience very close to the damage caused by drone attacks. I have tried my best to connect all the dots that lead to a drone attack and have shot the prevailing aftermath of such attacks in a very realistic and raw manner.”

    In particular, “the film identifies the problems faced by families who have become victims of drone missiles, and it unearths the line of action which terrorist groups adopt to use victimised families for their vested interests.” In other words, it depicts the tragedy of civilian deaths, and documents how those deaths are then successfully exploited by actual Terrorists for recruitment purposes.

    We can’t have the U.S. public learning about any of that. In April, Qasim was selected as the winner of the Audience Award for Best International Film at the 2012 National Film Festival For Talented Youth, held annually in Seattle, Washington. Qasim, however, along with his co-producers, were prevented from traveling to the U.S. to accept their award and showcase their film because their request for a visa to travel to the U.S. was denied. The Tribune reported: “Despite being chosen for the award, the filmmakers were unable to attend the award ceremony as their visa applications were rejected twice. ’If we got the visa then it would have been easy for us to frame our point of view in front of the other selected youth filmmakers,’ Qasim said.” And:

    “I believe the most probable reason for the visa denial was the sensitive subject of my film,” says Qasim. He recalls that when the visa officer asked about the subject matter of the film, he suggested making changes in the letter issued by his University upon hearing that the film dealt with terrorism and drone attacks.

    “Although I made the changes to the letter according to the visa officer’s recommendation, they still rejected the visa and did not disclose the reason for it,” says a disappointed Qasim.

    According to Qasim, “NFFTY is considered to be the biggest event for young film-makers of the world. Film schools as well as potential Hollywood producers attend the event in order to interact with young, talented film-makers. I’m disappointed that my team, especially my crew members Atiqullah, Ali Raza Mukhtar Ali and Waqas Waheed Awan, who made the film possible with their hard work and support, missed out on a major opportunity to represent Pakistan on an international forum.”

    Although it’s not proven why the visa was denied — the U.S. government, needless to say, refuses to comment on visa denials — this case is similar to that of Shahzad Akbar, a Pakistani lawyer who had sued the CIA on behalf of civilian drone victims and was also denied a visa to travel to the U.S. to attend last month’s Drone Summit in Washington; the Obama administration relented and permitted him to travel to the U.S. only once a serious outcry arose. The Bush administration also routinely excluded Muslim critics of U.S. foreign policy from entering the U.S.

    Banning filmmakers, lawyers, political activists, and scholars from entering your country out of fear of their criticisms is the behavior of an insecure, oppressive nation. It’s also natural behavior for political leaders eager to maintain an impenetrable wall of secrecy around their conduct.

    Just to underscore how extreme is the Obama administration’s reflexive secrecy in such matters: yesterday, ABC News‘s Jake Tapper asked National Security Advisor Tom Donilon whether the U.S. Government compensates the innocent victims it kills outside of Afghanistan, and Donilon simply refused to answer (“I’m just not going to go there”). There’s no legitimate reason that this information should be concealed, but for a government that views disclosure as inherently unnecessary, that is enamored of its own secrecy power for its own sake, and that is desperate to prevent its citizens from knowing what it is doing, this sort of imperious decree of secrecy is the natural course (for an even more egregious case, see this amazing summary from the ACLU’s Ben Wizner on how Obama DOJ lawyers defend the U.S. government’s secret, definitively Kafkaesque, unappealable no-fly and Terrorist watch lists).

    That the U.S. is routinely killing innocent civilians in multiple Muslim countries is one of the great taboos in establishment media discourse. A film that documents the horrors and Terror brought by the U.S. to innocent people — and the way in which that behavior constantly strengthens the Terrorists, thus eternally perpetuating its own justification — threatens to subvert that taboo. So this filmmaker is simply kept out of the country, in Pakistan, where he can do little harm to U.S. propaganda (as usual, U.S. government claims of secrecy based on national security are primarily geared toward ensuring effective propagnada — of the American citizenry). Isn’t it time for another Hillary Clinton lecture to the world on the need for openness and transparency? “Those societies that believe they can be closed to change, to ideas, cultures, and beliefs that are different from theirs, will find quickly that in our internet world they will be left behind,” she so inspirationally intoned last month.

    (Video available via labove link)

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