The Zimmerman Tapes: 911 Recordings Released From Shooting Of Teen In Florida By “Watchman”

We have been following the investigation into the death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida. The shooter, George Zimmerman, 28, has not been charged and reported a suspicious character to 911. Martin was returning from a 7-11 after buying Skittles. He was carrying the candy, a small amount of cash, and an iced tea. The family and many others have called for the arrest of Zimmerman, though the accounts of the shooting have been murky. Previously, we discussed the need to hear the 911 tapes, which have now been released and are linked below.


Zimmerman is reportedly a habitual caller into the police and is heard on one of the tapes complaining that ““These a**holes always get away.” Zimmerman states on the call that Martin appeared “up to no good . . . It’s raining. He’s just walking around, looking about . . . He’s just staring looking at all the houses.” Zimmerman says on the call that it is Martin who confronts him: “Something’s wrong with him. He’s coming to check me out.” However, he later admits that he is following Martin, which the police dispatcher discourages.

Police Chief Bill Lee said the 911 calls show that the incident was not a case of racial profiling. He said Zimmerman could not say whether the suspect was black or white. However, on the tape you hear Zimmerman say “He looks black” and then a few moments later, “He’s a black male.” While he is at first equivocal, he does identify his race. That does not mean that this is a case of profiling, of course.

However, family member have been critical of the handling of the case by the police and what they view as the police bending over backward to defend Zimmerman. The family had to file a lawsuit to get these tapes. After a hearing, the police finally relented.

The tapes certainly contradict some statements by the police. However, I am not sure that they substantially alter the status in the case. The evidence still is largely based on Zimmerman’s account, though such contemporary records are generally admissible. The tapes both help and hurt Zimmerman.

The statement by Zimmerman that “these a**holes always get away” certainly shows animus and he clearly follows the youth. However, that does not translate into evidence of intent to kill. I am more interested in the level of force used by Zimmerman and the two gunshots heard on the tape. It is possible that audio creates a misleading impression of two shots but that would seem an important forensic question. It is hard to believe that Martin would allegedly continue any confrontation of Zimmerman after a warning shot unless the shot was fired in the midst of a struggle over the gun. Zimmerman can cite the tape for his statement that he believed that Martin had something in his waistband and appeared on drugs. He can also cite his contemporary description of Martin approaching him.

Putting aside the complaints regarding the handling of the case by the police and the conflicting statements given by officials, there remains the question of whether there is sufficient evidence to base a charge against Zimmerman. I would like to see the coroner’s report on the trajectory and distance of the gunshot wound as well as audio analysis of the gun shot or shots. I would also like to see evidence of the abrasions on both men. Zimmerman was reportedly bleeding from the struggle but we have not heard many details on Martin’s other injuries.

Zimmerman would be wise to secure criminal counsel. There is probably enough here for an indictment. The most salient facts against him are (1) the statement on the 911 tape showing animus, (2) the disregarded instructions not to follow Martin, (3) the advantage in weight and possession of a firearm in the struggle, and (4) the lack of any weapon or proof of criminal conduct by Martin.

What do you think about the state of the evidence?

Here is the Zimmerman tape: 911 Tape (Zimmerman)

Here is a witness tape: 911 Tape (1)

Here is a witness tape: 911 Tape (2)

Source: CNN

821 Responses

  1. Mr. Turley please the kid is dead and a stalker killed him. I hope to God that somebody brings charges cuz if the kid was white and the shooter black…we all know who would be in jail today.


  2. SAD.:=(


  3. on 1, March 19, 2012 at 7:10 am Anonymously Yours

    I have read many accounts of this story. I have been to sanford many times. I recall Mike A’s statement as well. It appears that if this kid was walking away that Zimmerman is guilty of murder. AN I recall provided numerous links to the 911 tapes and story’s as well.

    I would like to know whether the Kid was shot in the back and if anyone has recorded information digital or otherwise…. This seems like a case of premeditated murder… Based upon the information gleaned thus far…. It’s kinda crappy when you’re shot for walking while black….or a kid….


  4. ‘murky’

    ———–

    yup


  5. I dont think its murky at all. the kid got shot and shouldnt have been. End of story.

    Zimmerman should not have been carrying a gun on a neighborhood watch, he should have had a radio.

    What kind of neighborhood was it?


  6. Bron I think the murky part is the police follow up.


  7. It is murder, pure and simple. The 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop following the victim. I gotta stay out of Florida. Yikes!


  8. on 1, March 19, 2012 at 7:57 am Swarthmore mom

    rafflaw, You don’t need to go. You have Florida weather there now.


  9. on 1, March 19, 2012 at 8:14 am Anonymously Yours

    Raff,

    To answer your rhetorical question…. Yes… It appears to be murder and in my mind…. Premeditated….. Now will he ever be charged…. The states attorney might get pressured into it…m


  10. Two hundred forty pound cop wannabe confronts one hundred forty pound kid between two apartment buildings armed with a handgun after being directed by a police dispatcher to leave him alone. Big Guy advises that he thinks the kid is acting suspiciously as he walks to an apartment carrying an ice tea and some candy, he’s black, and Big Guy notes that these assholes always get away. Neighbors hear pleas for help and then a shot is fired ending the altercation. Big Guy has a history of violent criminal charges but no convictions. Big Guy thinks he’s the self-appointed guardian of the neighborhood who calls the police regularly. Under the circumstances and If I’m the kid, I’m hitting the guy too and trying to get out of there.

    Murder charges have been brought on a lot less evidence. Let the Grand Jury decide — not this local yokel sheriff with a hearing problem.


  11. rafflaw, You don’t need to go. You have Florida weather there now.

    He might be thinking differently by next week especially those in the NE possibly down to the Mid Atlantic as there is a possibility of a major winter storm coming.


  12. Big Guy has a history of violent criminal charges but no convictions.

    I haven’t had a chance to dig deep into the story except it appears some want to turn this into a white black racial profiling case in spite of Zimmerman being Hispanic and growing up in a mixed race family. The question is what was the charges and who were they against. I realize that just because he’s Hispanic does not exclude him of hating blacks.


  13. I would like to see the coroner’s report on the trajectory and distance of the gunshot wound as well as audio analysis of the gun shot or shots. I would also like to see evidence of the abrasions on both men. Zimmerman was reportedly bleeding from the struggle but we have not heard many details on Martin’s other injuries.

    That is the proper focal point it seems to me.

    What do you think about the state of the evidence?”

    We wait for that missing evidence.


  14. We wait for that missing evidence.

    I’m surprised that no one has looked to see if he had a facebook account and what it tells us about him. Better yet seized his computer.


  15. on 1, March 19, 2012 at 8:43 am Anonymously Yours

    Mespo,

    I think you’re onto something…


  16. I see JT using this one to really test your capability of using your legal knowledge—-he posed legal questions to emphasize his intent—when faced with an emotion provoking case. It ain’t your empathy he’s testing.

    Interesting with that view to see the responses and grade them with my contention in mind.

    Dear Professor,
    May we expect a followup, where it is the black man defending his neighborhood from a whte suspect in equivalent circumstances?
    Again, the intention is to grade legal eagle capabilities.

    AAMom posed this too, but with other intent than mine.


  17. Gene H.

    Are you leading the PAC described here? They’re campaigning against incumbents, which I think was your suggestion as to solving the Senate problem.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/opinion/the-wrong-way-to-shake-up-congress.html?_r=1&hp

    Excerpt:
    “It plans to keep spending in primaries, and the power of its money in small Congressional districts is making many longtime members nervous. “


  18. May we expect a followup, where it is the black man defending his neighborhood from a whte suspect in equivalent circumstances?

    Ah hello, because of stigma, it would be a rare case of a white man in a black neighborhood trying to do something illegal, or any predominately neighborhood that was of minorities. This is why you see the cops looking for whites going into black neighborhoods because they know 99% of the time they are likely to make an arrest related to drugs.


  19. a white man in a black neighborhood trying to do something illegal

    where as a black man would be needed to defend his community.


  20. Bdaman 1, March 19, 2012 at 8:37 am

    We wait for that missing evidence.

    I’m surprised that no one has looked to see if he had a facebook account and what it tells us about him. Better yet seized his computer.
    ==================================================
    Definitely.


  21. Dredd I think that is standard procedure these days and they maybe reviewing it as we speak.


  22. Bdaman,

    Who said anything about a white man being in a predominantly minority neighborhood. That assumption is yours.

    I meant in the same neighborhood where this crime occured, if it is one, change the raciial positions, and see if the processing is the same.
    Get it now?


  23. FYI:Without Comment.

    “ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — Members of a self-described black militia group will attempt a citizen’s arrest on a white neighborhood watch leader who has admitted to fatally shooting an unarmed African-American teen in an Orlando suburb, but has not been charged, a leader of the group said Thursday.
    Members of The New Black Liberation Militia plan next week to take 28-year-old George Zimmerman to federal authorities since local police haven’t acted, said Najee Muhammad, a leader of the militia group.
    “We’ll find him. We’ve got his mug shot and everything,” Muhammad said.”

    http://www.thegrio.com/news/black-militia-group-wants-to-arrest-trayvon-martin-shooter.php


  24. He stalked the kid even after being told to mind his own business. He terrorized the kid, then he shot him in cold blood. As someone else mentioned it looks like the shooter outweighed this kid by at least a 100 lbs. What kind of chance did the kid have? I believe that the suspicious actions described by Zimmerman were caused by his stalking the young man. Hell I would be looking around, looking for help, wondering what the sam hill is going on if someone did this to me and I think any reasonable person would. I’m betting the only scuffle that took place was because this big goon jumped out of his car & tried to grab the kid.

    Remember too that this was a gated community. Just how many suspicious people would you really see in that setting? Looking at the murderer I would say he was the suspicious character and he most certainly was acting the part of somone doing something illegal.

    The bottom line is that the murderer was told to not follow him but he did it anyway. This tells me that he wanted an excuse to shoot someone, anyone to show what a tough guy he was. Charge, prosecute, Convict and sentence that jerk to at least 50 yrs with no parole. Maybe the next tough guy, neighborhood watch man will think twice before he does something this stupid. I have zero sympathy for this thug (murderer).


  25. Remember this is the same state that allowed a presidential election to be decided by the supreme court…and the one where Casey Anthony got off, there isn’t much justice in Florida for real victims. With that said Zimmerman was gunning for trayvon (all puns intended). He pegged him as someone who always gets away, Someone on drugs or something and got freaked out by something in his hand. This case is murder maybe not premeditated but it is murder. But cops have gotten away with similar crimes against black men so I doubt Zimmerman is punished.


  26. Just adding this:

    “A Virginia high school English teacher is under investigation for allegedly asking the only black student in the class to read a poem in a “blacker” manner.”

    http://www.thegrio.com/education-1/high-schooler-told-to-read-langston-hughes-poem-blacker.php

    :=(



  27. Ta-Nehisi Coates
    Ta-Nehisi Coates

    Ta-Nehisi Coates is a senior editor for The Atlantic, where he writes about culture, politics, and social issues for TheAtlantic.com and the magazine. He is the author of the memoir The Beautiful Struggle.

    Personal Mar 19 2012, 10:00 AM ET 97
    Hey guys. This week will be a little slow as I’m (finally) off to write. Consider this you’re early open thread.
    On the Police ‘Investigating’ The Killing of Trayvon Martin
    National Mar 18 2012, 5:22 PM ET 187
    Digby flags this quote and gives us some sense of the operation Bill Lee is running down in Sanford:

    “We are taking a beating over this,” said Lee, who defends the investigation. “This is all very unsettling. I’m sure if George Zimmerman had the opportunity to relive Sunday, Feb. 26, he’d probably do things differently. I’m sure Trayvon would, too.”

    That is an incredibly ugly statement filled with the kind of passive maliciousness for the victim and his family. That he is the police chief is frightening.

    More:

    Ibrahim Rashada, a 25-year-old African American who works at U.S. Airways, once spotted young men cutting through the woods entering the complex on foot, and later learned items were stolen those days.

    “It’s a gated community, but you can walk in and steal whatever you want,” Rashada’s wife, Quianna, said. They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year. Zimmerman seemed friendly, helpful, and a “pretty cool dude,” Ibrahim Rashada said.

    “He came by here and talked about carrying guns and getting my wife more involved with guns,” he said. “He said I should have a weapon and that his wife took classes to learn how to use one. “I do have a weapon, but I don’t walk around the neighborhood with mine!”

    Actually, he does not walk around the neighborhood at all.

    “I fit the stereotype he emailed around,” he said. “Listen, you even hear me say it: ‘A black guy did this. A black guy did that.’ So I thought, ‘Let me sit in the house. I don’t want anyone chasing me.’ ”

    For walks, he goes downtown. A pregnant Quianna listened to her husband’s rationale, dropped her head, and cried.

    UPDATE:

    ABC News has learned police seemed to accept Zimmerman’s account at face value that night and that he was not tested for drugs or alcohol on the night of the shooting, even though it is standard procedure in most homicide investigations.


  28. ‘”I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regard as I hope to one day become one,” Zimmerman wrote in a 2008 application to theSeminole County Sheriff’s Office citizen’s law enforcement academy, a class that teaches citizens about policing and how the Sheriff’s Office works.’

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-tension-20120317_1_shooting-death-english-teacher-uncle?pagewanted=all

    Shooter wanted to be cop

    George Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer, and sometimes his aspirations led to action.

    When he saw a 24-year-old Lake Mary man shoplift a 24-inch TV from an Albertsons supermarket in 2003, he called theSeminole County Sheriff’s Officeand followed the suspect’s car for several blocks, allowing a deputy to make an arrest, records show.

    The next year, Zimmerman followed a man who allegedly spit at him while driving, according to an incident report. The other driver accused Zimmerman — whom he described as “irate” — of tailgating, and was not arrested.

    Though there are no enrollment records suggesting Zimmerman has attended a law-enforcement academy, he carried a concealed weapon and expressed his desire to wear a badge. He’s currently enrolled in a general education program at Valencia Community College.

    “I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regard as I hope to one day become one,” Zimmerman wrote in a 2008 application to theSeminole County Sheriff’s Officecitizen’s law enforcement academy, a class that teaches citizens about policing and how the Sheriff’s Office works.

    Zimmerman was arrested in 2005 at a bar near the University of Central Florida on charges of assault on a law-enforcement officer and resisting arrest with violence. Both charges were ultimately dropped, according to court records. –end of excerpt


  29. eniobob1, March 19, 2012 at 10:19 am

    FYI:Without Comment.

    “ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — Members of a self-described black militia group will attempt a citizen’s arrest on a white neighborhood watch leader who has admitted to fatally shooting an unarmed African-American teen in an Orlando suburb, but has not been charged, a leader of the group said Thursday.
    Members of The New Black Liberation Militia plan next week to take 28-year-old George Zimmerman to federal authorities since local police haven’t acted, said Najee Muhammad, a leader of the militia group.
    “We’ll find him. We’ve got his mug shot and everything,” Muhammad said.”

    http://www.thegrio.com/news/black-militia-group-wants-to-arrest-trayvon-martin-shooter.php
    ————————————
    the guy sounds like a paranoid nut….and the police refused to do thier job …because of …..racism???? really????

    Are they republicans?


  30. So a wannabe cop who ignores cops orders and kills somebody get the same mis-investigation AS IF he were a cop.
    Nice place. Hope they get him in fed hands. Can’t the feds be engaged by citizen complaint? Making a ciiizens’ arrest seems funny way to get fed attention.


  31. or perhaps they were teaparty economists and support Zimmerman because they understand the fear that accompanies the recognition that he must have had when he saw that slight young black male had in his possession…a cup of tea…


  32. idealist,

    My understanding is that the FBI was involved, in some capacity, as early as last week.


  33. eniobob
    FYI:Without Comment.

    “ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — Members of a self-described black militia group will attempt a citizen’s arrest on a white neighborhood watch leader

    ———-

    I hope they reconsider. This could end up looking like the stateroom scene from a Marx Brother’s movie or it could end very, very badly. They need to just stay in Orlando.


  34. The term Watchman:
    If no legal authority such as state, county, city, homeowners association hired or authorized him to Watch and to carry a weapon;
    and within that: if some homeowners association here did not have the authority to hire him to Watch and carry a weapon;

    Then he is no more a watchman than the average peeping tom.

    If he is carring a weapon then he stands on the same footing as any non felon citizen in any state, did he have a concealed carrry permit or is one required in Florida? Can he openly carry a pistol in a housing neighborhood, ie within so many feet of homes?

    If there is a private community here and they hired this guy or tolerated him without “authority” then they will be liable for the shooting. If it is someone that a homeowners board or condo board hired, then they better have authority.

    If the police in the town condone this schmuck running around as a Watchman with a gun then they have a problem with liability. Fairlure of the
    Chief of Police to supervise his gunman.

    If, he was acting under color of law then he can be sued under
    42 United States Code Section 1983 for violation of dead kids civil rights under color of law and his superiors and his municipality can be liable. If the members of the homeowenrs association were involved in appointing him then they are “private actors” acting in conjunction with badge holders or color of state law authorites and can be liable.

    Whoever condoned or authorized this schmuck to be Watchman proceeded on a slipery slope. There does not need to be race animous here for the family to recover damages.

    To obtain justice the family needs to consult an able civil rights attorney who versed in civil rights litigation. There are not many in existence. The average lawyer does not know shit from shinola (excuse the dog expression) about such things. The family is not going to obtain justice from some local yokel prosecuting attorney.


  35. Dogtalkin again:
    This is a case with actual damages in the half million range and punitve damage against the indivdiuals or homeowners assocatiaon (not the municipality on punitives) for a lot more money. The attorney and client can also recover attorney fees on an hourl basis under 42 U.S.C. Section 1988 and so this is not just crap shoot.

    If the family reads this then take some dog advice and find a good two legged cviil rights lawyer. You might have to go outside your town or state to find one.


  36. I agree completely with mespo’s analysis, above. In addition, it’s time to take a good, hard look at “watch groups” nationwide. Many in these groups have the best of intentions, but we all know about “good intentions.”

    Huntsville, Alabama is but one example — it just happens to be the first one that I located, with comments by a police chief. It’s not lost on many of us that community watch groups have been encouraged (and funded, in part) by the feds. Since 2001, the following have been promoted and encouraged: “See something, say something” campaigns; SARs (Suspicious Activity Reports); “community watch” groups (as noted below), …

    http://blog.al.com/breaking/2012/01/huntsville_police_chief_commun.html

    Excerpt:

    HUNTSVILLE, Alabama — Despite its rash of burglaries and robberies at the end of 2011, Huntsville is a safe city according to Police Chief Mark Hudson.

    FBI statistics from the first six months of 2011 bear that out, showing seven of the 10 major crime categories were down in Huntsville. Hudson attributes the positive statistics to good police officers (400), community watch groups being at an all-time high (over 150) and the priority city government puts on public safety.

    The FBI statistics from Jan. 1-June 30 in 2010 and 2011 include violent crime (down 13.1 percent), robbery (down 31.6 percent), aggravated assault (down 4.5 percent), property crime (down 28 percent), burglary (down 21.6 percent), motor vehicle theft (down 4.7 percent) and larceny-theft (down 33.4 percent). The two categories up were rape, 31 to 41 (32.3 percent) and arson, 10 to 15 (up 50 percent). Murders remained the same, 4 for the same period of time in 2010 and half of 2011 – especially burglary and robbery – will jump when the FBI releases those figures sometime in 2012. In September, October and the first half of November, Huntsville burglaries spiked to nearly 550, up 24 percent from the same time period in 2010. There were 262 burglaries in November – 219 of them residential burglaries, up 15 percent from November 2010. -end of excerpt


  37. LK:

    YES!!!

    “or it could end very, very badly. They need to just stay in Orlando.”


  38. Hey, let’s get the New Black Liberation Militia after Chaney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Yoo et al. They didn’t witness this poor kid’s shooting, but we’ve got public confessions from these war criminals. Perhaps the country needs a bad-ass semi-suicidal posse. As Hunter Thompson once said, “When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.” And things are getting pretty weird.


  39. Well said, seamus.


  40. Uh oh…I was kind of kidding about the wisdom of setting an angry militia loose.


  41. Except against Cheney.


  42. Right on folks. But not citizen’s arrests, We lose too many of them already
    .
    As for neighborhood watches……jeez, it’s STASI all over again.
    In America, it is incredible. And they don’t even have a religion backing them up.


  43. Good points about liability, TalkinDog. Hadn’t really thought of those considerations–did HOA know, tolerate, or appoint him, etc., etc.? Hmmm …

    On the 911 tapes, have you EVER known a legitimate Neighborhood Watch captain unwilling to give their own address to the police? Makes no sense at all.

    In any case, as has been said over & over, there is nothing murky at all about this except the police response. In addition to the guys history, size differences, the lethality of the weapon, the fact he was stalking/following when explicitly told not to–it should be pretty easy to prove him a liar when he says that’s him screaming help in the background of the neighbor’s 911 call. Uhmm … sounds exactly like the voice of a terrified teenager, not at ALL like Zimmerman’s voice in his own 911 call. It should be pretty easy to verify if there is a voice match. As the mother of two dark-skinned, mixed-race and super-fantastic teens, I’m just in tears. That could as easily have been my baby walking while black. Why is this bastard not in jail yet? This poor child.


  44. I intended to post a :-) with that, seamus… (No one who reads your comments would think that you’re a proponent of “angry militias”…)

    To be clear, I’m not condoning any sort of vigilante justice… Now, trials for war crimes and murders…, well, that’s quite another thing. Most of us here are firm believers in due process, the rule of law…. Just want to clear that up…


  45. College students rally at courthouse for Trayvon Martin

    “We want justice served,” said protester Ese Ighedosa. “The 911 tapes, they show murder.”

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-students-20120319,0,7100977.story (with video)

    Excerpt:

    Near the end of the rally, Sanford City Commissioner Velma Williams sat down tiredly on a bench. “Lord have mercy, I haven’t slept in two or three nights,” she said. “This has brought shame to our community.”

    What began as a fatal shooting Feb. 26 that drew almost no news coverage has now mushroomed into a cause célèbre and generated national headlines.

    Williams said she tried to convince Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee Jr. several days ago to do something to quiet the growing calls for Zimmerman’s arrest.


  46. on 1, March 19, 2012 at 6:12 pm Michael A. de Melo

    What I would be most curious about at this point would be how much time elapsed between Zimmerman’s initial call to 911 and the actual arrival of a police officer on scene. If they failed to respond to the initial call and did not react until they received additional calls reporting an altercation and possible gunshots, then it would seem they would be guilty of negligence and have a reason beyond race to motivate a shoddy investigation.


  47. id707,

    No. If I were involved in something like that it would be to target the Senate, not the House. I see the Senate as a far bigger problem in re entrenchment and corruption than I do the House.


  48. In re the story proper? Not only should Zimmerman be arrested, a grand jury should be convened to look into the police response in this tragic episode. My sincerest condolences to the Martin family. May justice prevail.


  49. on 1, March 19, 2012 at 9:21 pm Anonymously Yours

    FYI,

    MoveOn.Org has a petition online called signing.Org to request Florida Prosecutor Pam Bondi to go after Zimmerman……


  50. The police here sound REALLY jaded about the loss of human life here. If this happened in Montgomery County MD there would be a freaking madhouse. Not sure about PG County though. There seems to be so much crime there with gangs now.


  51. http://www.city-data.com/city/Sanford-Florida.html

    The City of Sanford is 50% white, with the rest being predominantly black 29% or so then Hispanic at 17.4%. There were all of 3 murders in 2010 in Sanford, a town of around 50,000. My vote is that is still too high a number for just 50k people. Sanford is in Seminole County.


  52. MSNBC is reporting “BREAKING NEWS: Department of Justice, FBI launch probe into death of Fla. teen Trayvon Martin”.

    Details to be forthcoming.


  53. Gene and anon nurse,
    It’s about time that th FBI got involved in this murder.


  54. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/al-sharpton-interviews-trayvon-martins-father-in-emotionally-gripping-segment/

    rafflaw and Gene H.,

    Rick Scott finally asked the FDLE (Florida Department of Law Enforcement) to assist the State Attorney’s Office with their investigation. What will happen now that the DOJ and FBI are involved? What role will the state agencies play at this point?


  55. From the previous NY Times/Reuter’s link at 12:10 a.m.:

    Excerpt:

    The landmark law expanded on legislation, known as the Castle Doctrine, that allowed use of deadly force in defense of “hearth and home.” Passed under former Florida Governor Jeb Bush in 2005, it overturned a centuries-old doctrine that required the potential victim to retreat and avoid confrontation if possible, according to Ladd Everitt, spokesman for the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, a Washington-based advocacy group.

    “No one could argue that Zimmerman could not have safely retreated and avoided this conflict, and I think that is the critical element here and why these laws are so dangerous,” Everitt said. “He (Zimmerman) does not have a duty to retreat in Florida.”

    Crump said Zimmerman should not be protected under the Stand Your Ground law. “It’s illogical, you can claim self defense after you chase and pursue somebody,” he said. “That’s a courtroom defense. That’s not something the police accept on the side of the street.”

    Five years after Florida’s Stand Your Ground law was enacted, a 2010 review by the St. Petersburg Times found that reports of justifiable homicides had tripled, and a majority of cases were excused by prosecutors or the courts. Meanwhile, the petition drive, started by a friend of Trayvon’s mother, has been signed by people across the globe from Canada to Thailand, Lubin said.

    “This is a great moment for the entire nation to become educated in these Stand Your Ground laws,” Everitt said. “It’s unbelievably dangerous and really takes us to a situation where the rule of law is beginning to erode on our streets and vigilantism is being actively encouraged by these laws.”


  56. anon nurse,
    I think Scott only asked the FDLE because he knew the FBI would get involved.


  57. rafflaw, I wondered… Thanks for confirming. (By the way, without meaning to be intrusive, an alternate avatar appeared the other day when there were WordPress problems. Your wife is lovely. What a nice couple the two of you make!)

    ————

    Sheriff’s Office releases more 911 calls made by George Zimmerman
    6:18 p.m. EST, March 19, 2012|

    By Bianca Prieto, Orlando Sentinel

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-911-20120319_1_neighborhood-county-sheriff-s-office-report

    Excerpt:

    The neighborhood crime watch volunteer who shot and killed Trayvon Martin last month, called 911 dozens of times in the months that led to the fatal shooting.

    This afternoon six of the calls made by George Zimmerman were released by theSeminole County Sheriff’s Office.

    In four of the recordings Zimmerman called police to report “suspicious” persons — all of whom were black — in or near the Retreat at Twin Lakes neighborhood.

    He called once to report his neighbor’s open garage door.

    End of excerpt


  58. Gene H.
    Yes, you did. Am aware of that, and got the answer I expected.
    But it was mentioned by me as confirming that there are funds to provide several attacks on incumbents.

    Senators are more entrenched. But assuming availability of funds, could it be done fo the Senate?


  59. Gene H and AN,
    Fine with FBI.
    1) who watches these watchment?
    2) an appropriate Congress investigation into the development of neighvorhood guards, might be in order to address the national issue.


  60. Absolutely heart breaking, his poor mother. If it was a honest mistake why are we hearing ZImmerman’s statement and apology. This is so horrible.


  61. oops, I meant why are we NOT HEARING an apology from Zimmerman


  62. From what info I have to go on; I am willing to go out on a limb, a pretty big one at that, and say, this Zimmerman is a bully-type,a loose cannon, and most likely has a screw loose. I say, the DA should be fired if this doesn’t go to trial


  63. Trayvon Martin Case: Justice Department To Investigate Fatal Shooting Of Unarmed Florida Teen
    03/20/2012
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-case-justice-department_n_1366101.html

    Excerpt:
    The U.S. Department of Justice and the FBI have opened an investigation into the “facts and circumstances” surrounding the killing of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed teenager shot and killed last month by a neighborhood watch captain in an Orlando suburb.

    The department will “conduct a thorough and independent review of all evidence and take appropriate action at the conclusion of the investigation,” according to a statement late Monday.

    The announcement comes as the drumbeat around the case continues to grow, becoming national news and shining a brighter media spotlight on the city of Sanford, where the killing occurred, and its police department, which handled the initial investigation that so far has failed to bring charges.


  64. NPR made quite a big deal out of Mr. Zimmerman being ‘Hispanic’ this morning – even mentioning that he can speak Spanish. So, does that make it OK? Is the fact that the white guy is not quite white enough somehow make his assault and execution of a teen more understandable?

    Cheeses, we live in some screwed up times.


  65. Justice Department, FBI to probe shooting death of Florida teen Trayvon Martin

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/19/10766858-justice-department-fbi-to-probe-shooting-death-of-florida-teen-trayvon-martin

    Nothing is going to change unless the feds investigate local law enforcement’s (lack of) response to the killing of Trayvon


  66. “Nothing is going to change unless the feds investigate local law enforcement’s (lack of) response to the killing of Trayvon” -Oro Lee

    Absolutely right, Oro Lee.


  67. Oro Lee,

    Right, as you say.

    Will that have a salutary effect on other DA’s, or will it be busineess as usual?


  68. Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T2iJNtmDl8E

    Excerpt:

    ABC News was there exclusively as the 16-year-old girl told Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump about the last moments of the teenager’s life.

    “He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,” Martin’s friend said. “I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

    Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he’d managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

    “Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone.”

    The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

    Trayvon’s phone logs, also obtained exclusively by ABC News, show the conversation occurred five minutes before police first arrived on scene. The young woman’s parents asked that her name not be used, and that only an attorney could ask her questions.
    Trayvon Martin’s Alleged Killer: 911 Calls Watch Video
    Florida Teen Killed by Community-Watch Member Watch Video
    Trayvon Martin’s Family Calls for Justice Watch Video

    Martin’s father, Tracey Martin, and mother, Sybrina Fulton, listened to the call along with ABC News, ashen-faced.

    “He knew he was being followed and tried to get away from the guy, and the guy still caught up with him,” Tracey Martin said. “And that’s the most disturbing part. He thought he had got away from the guy and the guy back-tracked for him.” (end of excerpt)

    Heart-wrenching.


  69. on 1, March 20, 2012 at 10:01 am Anonymously Yours

    AN,

    Eventually the truth does come out….. It does take time…. Did you see the link to signon.org….


  70. AY,

    For the sake of all, I hope and pray that it does. No, I didn’t know about the signon.org petition. They are close to reaching their goal. Thanks.


  71. Walking While Black: Florida Police Resist Calls To Arrest Shooter of Unarmed Teen, Trayvon Martin

    http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/20/walking_while_black_florida_police_resist


  72. “A Modern Day Lynching”: Outrage Grows Over Killing of Trayvon Martin by Neighborhood Watch Patrol

    http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/20/walking_while_black_florida_police_resist


  73. The just-initiated federal investigation will, under normal circumstances, also include any state police cover up or other civil rights abuses.


  74. Feds face challenges in Trayvon Martin case

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57400609/feds-face-challenges-in-trayvon-martin-case/

    Excerpt:

    (CBS News) The Department of Justice is reviewing evidence in the shooting death of unarmed black teen Trayvon Martin by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman in Florida, but prosecuting Zimmerman at the federal level could be an uphill battle, reports CBS News senior correspondent John Miller.

    Under growing public pressure, the Department of Justice announced Monday that it would conduct a review of the case, but added the qualification that the “government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person acted intentionally with the specific intent to do something which the law forbids.”

    Complicating matters, Florida state law allows a person the right to stand their ground and use deadly force if they feel threatened. The Justice Department recognized that, stating that “negligence, recklessness, mistakes and accidents are not prosecutable under the federal criminal civil rights laws.”

    The federal government can’t prosecute Zimmerman for murder or manslaughter, so any prosecution for civil rights violations must prove Zimmerman took Martin’s life because of prejudice.


  75. Here, victim’s relatives may require re-trial at a higher instance, if not-guilty is the judgement=double jeopardy. As can the prosecutor.
    Uncertain as to right to force investigation. Many cases are written off routinely for “lack or evidence or leads”. But death, no—–except when the police do it, such as one case about which the mother raised hell through the media.

    Seems odd, the feds can’t do more than check for civil rights violations.
    Any other grounds?


  76. http://www.wesh.com/news/30721590/detail.html States Atty sends Trayvon Martin case to grand jury.


  77. I mean State Attorney.


  78. Why is everyone sooooo surprised???? It’s not the first time someone has killed an innocent black man and won’t be the last. I’m not shocked at all about the MURDER or the cover-up. Society is so foul in the sense that you can clearly kill a black man with no rhyme or reason and go back home and pop a beer with the fellas. It’s an indisputable clear cut case of PREMEDITATED MURDER. Although I’m sure due to all of the media coverage charges will be filed(whether they stick or not, who knows). Also, everybody knows what this guy looks like and where he lives by now. Unless he relocates out of the country someone will eventually knocked his head off. Peace


  79. anon nurse 1, March 20, 2012 at 10:42 am

    Feds face challenges in Trayvon Martin case

    Complicating matters, Florida state law allows a person the right to stand their ground and use deadly force if they feel threatened.
    ========================================
    State law is irrelevant in a prosecution for violation of federal criminal laws concerning civil rights.

    Discriminatory application of state law and other concerns play a part, but state law only applies to the state courts in these premises:

    The Criminal Section prosecutes cases involving the violent interference with liberties and rights defined in the Constitution or federal law. The rights of both citizens and non-citizens are protected. In general, it is the use of force, threats, or intimidation that characterize a federal criminal violation of an individual’s civil rights.

    Our cases often involve incidents that are invariably of intense public interest.

    (DOJ). What would be a simple assault case can be prosecuted by the DOJ:

    Former Georgia Sheriff’s Deputy Pleads Guilty to Assaulting Detainee

    The Justice Department announced today that former Thomas County Sheriff’s Deputy Julian Scott Law pleaded guilty today to assaulting a detainee inside of the Thomas County Jail in Thomasville, Georgia, thereby depriving the detainee of his civil rights.

    During the plea hearing, Law admitted that on Aug. 20, 2010, while he was working as a deputy, he punched a detainee and knocked him into a wall, causing the detainee to suffer a bloody nose, swelling, bruising, and pain. Law admitted that he punched the detainee because the detainee had thrown a cell phone case onto the floor.

    Sentencing for Law is set for July 16, 2012. At sentencing, Law faces a maximum penalty of ten years in jail.

    “The Department of Justice will continue to vigorously prosecute officers who betray their oath to society by abusing their official authority,” said Thomas E. Perez, Assistant Attorney General of the Civil Rights Division.

    “We count on our law enforcement officers to protect and serve, and to honor the badge they wear. When they betray their oath, they dishonor the public trust and their fellow officers who uphold the law, rather than break it,” said U.S. Attorney for the Middle District of Georgia Michael J. Moore.

    This case was investigated by the FBI and was prosecuted by Trial Attorney Christine M. Siscaretti of the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division and Assistant U.S. Attorneys Sharon Ratley and Paul C. McCommon III of the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Middle District of Georgia.

    (DOJ website). For the record, the article you cited was full of error and misunderstanding. You know, MSM journalism a la CBS news.


  80. Dredd,

    “(DOJ website). For the record, the article you cited was full of error and misunderstanding. You know, MSM journalism a la CBS news.”

    Thanks for clearing things up. As you say, MSM… CBS… I know….

    Swarthmore mom,

    Thanks for the grand jury link/information.


  81. You are welcome, an.


  82. anon nurse 1, March 20, 2012 at 11:37 am

    Dredd,

    “(DOJ website). For the record, the article you cited was full of error and misunderstanding. You know, MSM journalism a la CBS news.”

    Thanks for clearing things up. As you say, MSM… CBS… I know….

    Swarthmore mom,

    Thanks for the grand jury link/information.
    ==================================
    IMO Zimmerman is going down. What I am uncertain of is how many cops are going down with him for their conspiracy or complacency.


  83. Some new info folks:

    Just moments before Trayvon Martin was shot and killed, he was on his cellphone talking with a 16-year-old girl. For the first time, the girl is speaking out about the last, horrifying moments of Martin’s life.

    “He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,” the girl told ABC News. “I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

    (Huffington Post).


  84. “IMO Zimmerman is going down. What I am uncertain of is how many cops are going down with him for their conspiracy or complacency.” -Dredd

    Dredd,

    Thanks for telling it like it is and asking the right question/s.


  85. on 1, March 20, 2012 at 12:19 pm Anonymously Yours

    Dredd,

    Don’t you know the only ones to go down in Florida are those that directly compete with the LEOs….. Such as drug trafficking, loan sharking and shaking folks down….. It’s that exclusive dealing concept…… Knocking people off, killing innocent folks is overlooked unless of course it involves a high profiled individual…. Except down and Out broken ball players…..they are exempted as they aren’t a threat….. Odds are 25 to 1 with a little juice for the action…..


  86. If you have heard the Zimmerman call tape, there is a critical bit between 2:21-2.23 minutes.

    Kestrel9000 works in radio. K9k has taken that bit and using CoolEdit with filtering, we can clearly hear Zimmerman say, “….fucking coon…”

    http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1076076/45428936#c24

    These two words take it to a whole new level. Think what the tape will sound like after being cleared up and enhanced by the Fed’s spyware.


  87. Thanks for the tape and link OS. That’s what it sounded like to me without reading the analysis in your posting (I just played that portion of the tape loud a couple of times with ear-buds) but the second word is muddy, “F*****g ” is not as muddy. I look forward to a more clear extract from the tape because my hearing could be clouded by my predisposition against Zimmerman.


  88. Thanks for the quote from the DOJ Dredd, there may be hope of actual justice in this case yet. Unless there are political reasons for there not being justice, that is. The DOJ is a pitiful excuse for a DOJ, IMO, but then I’m still pissed about Governor Siegelman.


  89. on 1, March 20, 2012 at 1:08 pm Otteray Scribe

    LK, click the blue link. Kestrel has the enhanced and slowed down version at that link, which he has uploaded to Sound Cloud.


  90. A linguistic note from yesterday from a spanish teacher acquaintance.
    A hard consonant followed by a u sound as in Miguel or coon is weakened by the u sound. this is contrast to an a sound.

    This may give a reason that the second word is not as easily distinguishable as the first one.

    I am prejudiced, I hope he goes down. Now let’s see how the DoJ wiggles out of this civil ritghts case.


  91. OS,

    That was something. Mespo called it.


  92. OS, did so. Hmmmmm, it ain’t looking good for Mr. Zimmerman.


  93. 1) Person A shots and kills person B.
    2) At the scene, person B claims self defense to police.
    3) Person B is NOT taken from the scene to police HQ to immediately conduct a full and standard investigation.

    Why no outrage over these basic facts alone?


  94. HoodyWeaver
    Because person B is a well-known extension of the police dept. and is given the full courtesies of the corps.

    “Outrage, haven’t these fuckers understood how this world works”?, says the police chief. Note: rhetorical question. No irony intended by him, only his outrage.
    In the background lurk the feds, “how do we handle this so we continue to enjoy good relations with the local jokels”.


  95. My understanding of Florida law is that you can’t use the defense if you are the pursuer which Zimmerman clearly was as evidenced by the tapes. It doesn’t seem to me that a reasonable person (in Zimmerman’s shoes) would be in fear of their safety. I don’t think you can assert that you are in fear of your safety if “you” instigate the situation. So trajectory evidence, etc., seems irrelevant in this situation – at least that’s my reading of the Florida law at issue here.


  96. When a sworn in police officer discharges his/her weapon in the line of duty a procedural investigation is conducted.

    When a sworn in police officer shoots ANYONE (on or off duty), the weapon used is confiscated immediately and the police officer is placed on administrative review during investigation.

    Is Zimmerman still in possession of his weapon?

    Was his weapon ever confiscated?

    Does the gated community hold any potential liability for the conduct of Zimmerman?


  97. eniobob,

    I don’t know how much influence the petition we signed had but at least something more will be done. The beat goes on. :)


  98. A link to Slate:

    “Florida’s self-defense laws have left Florida safe for no one—except those who shoot first.”

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/03/why_george_zimmerman_trayvon_martin_s_killer_hasn_t_been_prosecuted_.single.html

    Has some input about common law and the requirement for “backing”, except when home invaded, from law prof.


  99. Excerpt from above Slate link, pertinent to Florida:

    “Prosecutors opposed the Stand Your Ground law, and they still complain about it. “It is an abomination,” former Broward County Prosecutor David Frankel told the Sun Sentinel in January. “The ultimate intent might be good, but in practice, people take the opportunity to shoot first and say later they had a justification. It almost gives them a free pass to shoot.”

    The quote comes from a story about a former sheriff’s deputy, Maury Hernandez, who killed an unarmed homeless man in a Haagen-Dazs shop on a Saturday afternoon. Hernandez, who was with his children, said the man aggressively asked for money and then tried to assault him. Witnesses said Hernandez warned the man several times before taking out his gun and firing multiple times. The police said they wouldn’t charge Hernandez for the shooting because he claimed he was under attack.

    It’s that decision not to press charges that makes Stand Your Ground laws, which a bunch of other states have adopted, a crazy departure from the past. It’s one thing to raise self-defense at trial. It’s another to have what the Florida Supreme Court calls “true immunity.” True immunity, the court said, means a trial judge can dismiss a prosecution, based on a Stand Your Ground assertion, before trial begins.

    At least there’s supposed to be a hearing before that happens, at which the defendant has the burden of proof. And yet as the Hernandez and Martin’s case shows, Stand Your Ground laws often lead prosecutors to decide against so much as bringing charges. According to the Sun Sentinel, “In case after case during the past six years, Floridians who shot and killed unarmed opponents have not been prosecuted.””


  100. New York Times comment on Zimmerman:
    “As a resident of Florida who lives in a “mixed” neighborhood I have had some exposure to neighborhood watch tactics. After my house was robbed last year I met with the leader of our community safety committee. His suggestion? Call the cops at every opportunity, describe the person of interest as “acting erratically”, and report the person as holding something that “may be a gun”. Every opportunity, I was given to believe, was any time a young black male or males seemed to be passing my house in anything less than a brisk trot.
    This place is scary.”

    No comment, just one more reason to stay here.


  101. More NYTimes comment:

    “SofDocBoston, MA

    One of the most radical ideas of our framers was the separation of powers. This meant, at a minimum, no person could be the judge of his own case. In the criminal justice system the functions of justice are placed into the hands of different organizations and people. However, the Florida law subverts this separation because it permits a licensed gun owner to become: the arresting officer, the investigating officer, the defense attorney, the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, the jailer, and in this case, the executioner. Obviously, the check on the abuse of powerof which the framers were deeply concerned is eliminated by the Florida law. In effect, that law as written asserts that there is no abuse of power if an armed citizen acts under what he believes is a threat requiring a resort to force. Thus we have citizens who have no training in recognizing threats much less defusing them have been empowered by a legislature to hold the power of life or death in their hands.”

    What have you created America? My country, tis of thee……


  102. Go listen to DemocracyNow, as this commenter recommends.

    FYI, you should log into Democracy Now’s website. On their broadcast this morning they played the 911 tapes and the section, which no other news outlet has played strangely, in which Mr. Zimmerman can clearly be heard saying to the 911 dispatcher ‘These ——- Coons just won’t go away’ Clearly this man had a motive in tracking this young man over and above a neighborhood watch.

    Good night all. Sleep well. Irony intended re sleeping.


  103. on 1, March 20, 2012 at 6:17 pm Kathleen Wagner

    It is a disgrace that his man Zimmerman has not been arrested for the murder of this teenager in Florida. Zimmerman should not have been armed as a neighborhood watchman. He should have stayed in his car and not followed this boy when he was told not to. He killed him for nothing except that I think there must be something wrong with this
    man after hearing that he has called the police 46 times in the past year. He could have told the boy who he was and checked him out without shooting him. What kind of laws do they have in Florida that he can get away with this. I don’t consider this a racial issue per se. I am a white mother and grandmother and I would be just as incensed if this had been one of my teenage grandsons or granddaughters. To quote a favorite play of mine “attention must be paid”.
    Thank you.


  104. Couldn’t the Feds just put Zimmerman on their terror list?


  105. Res ipsa loquitur, Jonathan.

    Has anyone asked if he was licensed to carry a gun? Did he have a concealed weapons permit? Florida is not the Wild West; it is not legal to walk around armed without a concealed weapons permit. Why was he armed in the first place? He was not a police officer or security guard, but rather a self-appointed vigilante. This was not self defense: he was in a car and could have driven away. The moment he exited the car, armed with a weapon in pursuit of the boy, he became the stalker and self defense does not enter the picture.

    There should have been an arrest followed by an investigation. The police chief’s statements, later contradicted by the taped evidence, are cause for a further investigation of a police coverup.

    Zimmerman admits in the tapes the boy was “a teenager”. He was told by the police dispatcher not to pursue the boy, yet he did so anyway, carrying a loaded gun. The unarmed boy’s voice is clearly heard on the tape crying for help. There is a gunshot. No more screams for help are heard and the boy is dead.

    Res ipsa loquitur – a Latin phrase in law meaning “the thing speaks for itself.”


  106. on 1, March 20, 2012 at 7:07 pm Otteray Scribe

    Raff, I don’t know about the terrorist list, but definitely the no-fly list.

    Here is more discussion of what was said on that tape, but was particularly interested in the comment by a professional transcriptionist.

    http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1076125/45431341#c6


  107. OS:

    I heard what I heard and I know what I heard. if the Grand Jury hears what I heard, I suggest Ol’ Watchman George dress up in his Sunday best, bow gentlemanly from the waist and kiss his racist ass goodbye.


  108. OS, The alleged racial epithet was discussed on the Ed Show tonight.

    Mespo, I want that tape cleaned up professionally by some unimpeachable technical lab and exactly what was said nailed down tight. This may be the lynch-pin aspect of the tape that allows no wiggle room regarding DOJ prosecution so I want it done with no way to challenge it if it was indeed a racial epithet. What I believe I heard (which is the same as what you heard) is not what gets the job done legally. I figure ‘the system’ will work as hard as it can to sweep this back under the rug if it’s possible to do so and I’d rather that not happen, I’d rather this be the start of some serious reform so I don’t want any errors to mess it up.


  109. on 1, March 20, 2012 at 9:30 pm Anonymously Yours

    OS, Mespo, LK,

    As mespo had said he might need to dress pretty, if he’s arrested they will need to segregate him for his own safety…. He will find out what real racism is behind this gated community…..


  110. Lotta:

    The FBI’s Digital Evidence Laboratory’s Forensic Audio, Video, and Image Analysis Unit is the best in the world, A clean tape should be no problem.

    http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/february/forensic_021210/forensic-analysis-clues-buried-in-sounds-and-images


  111. on 1, March 20, 2012 at 9:34 pm Otteray Scribe

    Mespo, the only real question in my mind, is did he say “coon” or “coons.” Either way, he really needs to get himself integrated……I suggest he become nattily dressed in horizontal black and white stripes.


  112. on 1, March 20, 2012 at 9:44 pm Otteray Scribe

    Mespo, I agree on being able to get a clean copy relatively easily by the FBI forensic lab. If a radio announcer in New Hampshire can clean up a copy as quickly as Kestrel did, it should be a piece of cake for the FBI lab. It only took Kestrel about fifteen minutes to isolate that audio excerpt and publish it to SoundCloud.


  113. I heard the “s” OS.

    Also, Mespo, I know you’re right about the FBI credentials but I’d kinda’ like a private lab to do the work too, just to keep ‘em honest.


  114. Mespo,
    I agree that the FBI can get the tape cleaned up. This shooter is dirty.


  115. LK, you can bet that private labs all over the country are in the process of doing exactly that. Just as Kestrel did with that one two second clip.

    Knowing Kestrel as I do, I would not be surprised to find out he is in the process of cleaning up the whole thing. He works in radio, is an audio expert and has professional equipment at his disposal. There are thousands more out there just like him that are just as outraged. All those folks will help keep them honest.


  116. Meanwhile we have The Prez and his “resources”. Doesn’t have to be a drone. Can be a heartattack while eating at his favo shop.
    You know: Whopper with extras (heart toxin included).
    Of course that should be used only after an unsuccessful prosecution.
    Just so you know.


  117. Zimmerman should NOT be charged based on the current evidence and eye/ear witness testimony. Anyone who takes the time to look past the media spin on this

    The Martin parents don’t wan’t justice, they just want Zimmerman and they will take any piss poor reason to get at him.

    One of two things happened after Zimmerman’s call to 911 reporting Martin. The call records Martin walking toward Zimmerman then Martin running to the other entrance of the complex.

    Either Zimmerman followed him against dispatch instruction and asked him why he was there (a fair question) or Martin attacked him after flanking him by coming around the complex. Martin was fast enough to do that given he is 6’3 and 140 football player. Zimmerman is slow as hell at 5’2 and 250lb.

    However, Lets assume the recording by the Martin girfriend is not fake (who records cell phone calls pre-emptivley, Really?)

    Anyway, assuming the call is legit. Then Zimmerman merely approached the suspicious Martin and Martin first asks Zimmerman, “why are you following me?” Zimmerman responds with another and very fair and reasonable question “What are you doing here?” Then there is a scuffle
    Neighbors reported two guys wrestling/struggling/scuffling.

    It is most probable that when Zimmerman asked Martin what he was doing there, Martin’s fight/flight kicked in and he chose to fight.

    Eventually, Martin the 6’3 140lb football player (tall, fast, and lean) got the upperhand on the 5’2 250lb (short, slow, and overweight) Zimmerman. So much so that he is actually on top of Zimmerman on the ground beating the crap out of his face (he broke his nose) and slammed Zimmerman’s head into the concrete causing it to bleed.
    Zimmerman cries for help as a result of this fight domination by Martin went unanswered and as a last resort he shot Martin to save his own life. If you have never had someone on top of you beating you and banging your head into concrete then you don’t know how deadly that can be.

    The fact is someone can ask you “What are you doing here” and you DO NOT have the right to assault them. If you do, and they have a gun, and they have no other choice but to shoot you to stop the assault, they will.
    Its self defense. Asking someone what they are doing is not provocation

    More food for thought. Why is the Martin family surreptitiously releasing no recent photos of Martin?
    If Martin has really merely gone to the store to get candy and tea and had walked straight back to his Father’s girlfriends apartment, none of this would have happened. No, we was wandering around the complex looking at houses, probably using an earpiece on the cell phone under the hoodie so noone can see he is on the phone. Yeah that’s suspicious in a neighborhood where there has been recent burglaries.

    If Martin had not responded to a fair and reasonable question with illegal assault and battery, then he would not be dead today.


  118. I WILL TELL YOU WHAT I READ AND HEARD ON THOSE 911 TAPES , I AM APALL AT THE SANFORD POLICE DEPARTMENT. THEYKNEWTHIS RACSTMANSHOLD NT BE POLICING ANYNEIGHBOHOOD HE AE RACIST DISRESECTFUL BIAS REMARKS ABOUT A BOY AS WELL A OA WHOLE RACE OF PEOPLEHT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH TO MAKE SURE ASA POLCE DEPARTMENT NOT TO AVE HIM BE ASSOCIATEDWITH YOUA ALL , NOW YOU WANT tO COVER UP AND HELP HIM


  119. To The New Floridians– Welcome to the Wild Wild South. Where everyone is “Fair Game”.


  120. Where was the body in reference to Zimmerman car the distance from where he park and where he shot to death the martin child.if the child had never went to visit the father he would still be alive The Florida police department taper with the crime scene and the 911 tape by down, should be a internal investigation of miss conduct on the Sanford police department .


  121. on 1, March 22, 2012 at 2:26 am C.Everett Kook

    Manny Orlo

    George Zimmerman? is that you? I hope you can do better than that. You’ve got a lot of assumptions and a few too many ifs mixed up with some outright BS.

    There is no recording of the call Martin was making to his girlfriend nor have I seen anyone but you say there is one. What’s up with that?

    FIrst I’ve heard of a Zimmerman and a broken nose too, do you have any sources for that because the original police report didn’t mention any injuries to Zimmerman at all.

    Most troublesome of all Geor…er Manny is that you don’t appear to want Martin to enjoy the same rights as Zimmerman. Is it beyond your comprehension that someone might view a large, unidentified man approaching in the dark as possibly being dangerous and therefore it would be perfectly reasonable that to protect themself?

    Do you feel it would have been fair and reasonable for Martin to question Zimmerman?

    Regardless of what you say Martin was under no obligation to answer some strangers questions but I’ll bet if Zimmerman had identified himself as neighborhood watch instead of scaring the crap out of the kid by following him around the whole thing would have been cleared up in a minute and Martin would still be alive. Instead we have an armed Buford T Pusser wannabe and an innocent kid dead.

    Also, I’m having a little trouble with the food for thought you left on the table. How exactly does one “surreptitiously” not do something?


  122. C.Everett Kook: There is no recording of the call Martin was making to his girlfriend nor have I seen anyone but you say there is one. What’s up with that?

    According the Crump, the Martin attorney they have submitted the call as evidence. http://www.freep.com/article/20120321/NEWS07/203210342/Teen-spoke-with-his-girlfriend-while-watch-captain-followed.

    C.Everett Kook: First I’ve heard of a Zimmerman and a broken nose too, do you have any sources for that because the original police report didn’t mention any injuries to Zimmerman at all.

    Sheesh…thanks for being a statistic and joining the thousands of other kneejerk internet judges condemning this guy to a murder/manslaughter charge, yet you lack even the most fundamental facts of the case that have been disclosed despite the media spin/deception
    Yes, he had a broken nose, bleeding from back of his head, and wet grass stains all over his back.
    http://www.standard.net/stories/2012/03/08/father-wants-crime-watch-volunteer-who-killed-son-arrested

    Look – You just dont get it. Please look past the media spin. Of course Martin can ask questions (as he did), so can Zimmerman (as he did). The problem is what Martin did after Zimmerman asked a calm and fair question…as reported by Martin’s own girlfriend!

    The bottom line is. YOU CANNOT ASSAULT SOMEONE who approaches you and asks questions….let alone get on top of him and beat him to an inch of his life. If you do, you are essentially giving up the right to your own.

    What Martin should have done (after decking Zimmerman) is run away, But NOooo, he had to sit down on top of him and beat the crap out of his face.
    Zimmerman had two choices, shoot the guy (as he couldnt overpower him) or accept continuing bodily harm at the hands of a 6’3 140lb football player.

    That is why Zimmerman will never be charged or arrested as long the “rule of law” still is enforced in America. The Sanford Police, Sanford City Manager, Justice department, and FBI all see this…sadly 99% of the public don’t see this


  123. “Yes, he had a broken nose, bleeding from back of his head, and wet grass stains all over his back.’ -Manny Orlo

    From the link provided by Manny Orlo:

    “When police arrived and found the body, they also found Zimmerman bleeding from the nose and back of his head, according to the report. Also, the back of his shirt was wet and had grass clippings on it, as if he’d been on his back on the ground.”

    Zimmerman’s nose was “bleeding”, according to the article provided by Manny Orlo. (This has been widely reported.)

    Manny,

    Do you have a credible source revealing that Zimmerman’s nose was, in fact, broken?


  124. Manny,
    that dog won’t hunt. It is not reasonable for Zimmerman to have been following him and it is none of his business what he is doing. It is supposed to be a free country, even in Florida. He was proceeding against the wishes of the police department and harassing someone who was legally walking. By the way, I will echo anon nurse’s question, where is your source that this “football” player who was outweighed by over 100 pounds beat zimmerman up?


  125. rafflaw – actually, its your posted dogs there that won’t hunt

    rafflaw: He was proceeding against the wishes of the police department and harassing someone who was legally walking

    It was dispatch, not a police officer and not a lawful order (see link below) and even if he did not take dispatch instruction and rightfully merely continued his “patrol” of his own neighborhood and coincidentally or purposely walked past Martin…to which Martin initiated by FIRST asking Zimmerman why he was following him…IT STILL DOES NOT GIVE MARTIN the right to assault Zimmerman after ZImmerman asked him “What are you doing here”.
    Zimmeman DOES have the right to walk around…yes even walk past Martin as much as Martin has a right to walk around in a high crime recent burglarized neighborhood

    Think like someone who is objective here like a judge or lawyer or federal prosecutor. You are analyzing the timeline and waiting for the FIRST CLEAR evidence of an actual statute violation/crime

    As said befores…walking up to or by someone in your own neighborhood is not illegal, but to ASSAULT someone in response that with violent force makes you the criminal.

    Have any of you listened to ALL of the 911 calls from neighbors? They ALL corroborate Zimmerman’s story. Don;t hear what others are telling you to hear, hear whats actually happening and tell your friends to do the same

    If zimmerman is charged/arrested, then we might as well as a country start a 1800-arrest-them and arrestanyone.com. Then if I say to arrest anyone they simply will be and then we can spend tax dollars “proving” that person is innocent. Its called guilty, until proven innocent and it’s anti-american

    Thankfully, American forefathers were smarter than the average internet poster today and foresaw the importance of Innocent until Proven Guilty and not arresting people “just because” enough people don’t like someone for any reason

    Anon nurse: Is that little tidbit really going to make a difference in your position? Anything could be faked, but the witness reports show Zimmerman was confronted moments after the gunshot by a witness who Zimmerman instructed to call 911, Its doubtful he could have gotten away with faking the injuries or doing antics on the ground to get his back grass stained without being observed cmon…

    Try to come to terms with the tragedy that the media is not a pillar of integrity and yes, this 6ft kid actually did beat the crap out of Zimmerman while no less ON TOP of him for nothing more than doing his patrol and asking a fair question as to why he was there.

    http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf


  126. Sanford fllorida is the place you want to live it you want to live in dodge city .If you like to use your gun and get away with it , Sanford , fl. is the place yu want to be .


  127. Manny,
    You may want to quote me correctly. I stated that Zimmerman was asked not to follow him. Finally, you have produced no evidence that Zimmerman was attacked and beat up by the victim. Show us the proof that Martin beat up this vigilante before he decided to pull out is gun!


  128. I read it in one o those articles about his neighborhoos Zimmeriman tha is, from the people who ive at the complex where he waswatching that wn his side.


  129. Iread it on one of those articles on line about the neighborhs that zimmerman was watching , the apartment complexs the people own his zimmerman side.


  130. You hae to ask your self if he was all tha , then why was he no a Police Officer`S.


  131. You have to ask your self if he was all that , then why was he not a Police Officer`s.


  132. He had no Rights to ask a person why they are walking any where , and you have to ask your self if he was all that why was he not a real cop , because of his violent history with the police .IT IS A FREE WORLD , LET SoMEBODY ASK ME WHAT I doing some where and the are not a cop , NOT displaying their credentials.He was looking for a altercation and ran into a boy that was not scare of him , that why Zimmerman took a arm gun with him when he the safety of his car after being instructed not to . H e was a trigger happy vigilante cop want to be,and that is why all people who want to kill should move to Sanford Fl, and get a job as a neighborhood watchman especially if you have a violent racist history .


  133. he had a mine set we all heard the 911 tape,he had a loaded gun and he want to use it , after all he wanted to make sure these black do not get away with everything.I DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING THE SANFORD POLICE AND GZ HAS TO SAY THEY ARE LYING .MARTIN WAS PROBALY SCARE OF HIM TO SOME POINT , NOW YOU WALKING DOWN THE STEET MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS AND A STRAMGER N A CAR START PROFILLING YOU .


  134. Anon nurse: Is that little tidbit really going to make a difference in your position? -Manny Orlo

    I prefer facts over fiction, in cases like this, Manny.


  135. Sad, feeling helpless and hopeless because the law protects the perpetrator. Under the protection of Florida’s Stand Your Ground law, Zimmerman can walk out of the court room a free man because he can “reasonably believe it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself,” according to FL law.

    What can you do if he sincerely believed his life was in danger if he didn’t pull the trigger? How can the court challenge what one believes? Belief is real as long as one believes. There is no way to prove that what one believes is not true. Of course, there are plenty of lawyers on his side, enough to get him off the hook.

    For all Millon Hoodie March and international outcry of injustice, I am not optimistic about the outcome. At most, Zimmerman might receive a slap on the wrist for not complying the 911 request that he not follow Martin. At best, he might capitalize on this once-in-life experience by writing a book and live a life of celebrity.


  136. Breaking news today. Governor Rick Scott has appointed a special prosecutor from another part of the state to oversee the proceedings. Story here:

    Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi said Thursday that they had appointed a new prosecutor to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin and would appoint a committee on citizen safety that would examine the state’s “Stand Your Ground” law. Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old, was killed by a self-described neighborhood watch guard in February.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/22/10817535-florida-governor-appoints-new-prosecutor-in-trayvon-martin-case


  137. OS,
    Good news, but I wouldn’t trust anyone Gov. Scott chooses.


  138. Manny Orlo,

    Flip the situation around. You are being followed by a large man. You attempt to loose him. The large man persists. You think you loose him. He confronts you. Possible he grabs you (hello, assault and battery) at the very least you are confronted by a man who outweighs you by over a hundred pounds. It is dark, and you have no escape. The man has not told you who he is, all you know is that he has persisted in following you. He ask you what you are doing. Are you scared shitless yet? I know that if a large man had persisted in following me for no known good reason, I would at least be in a defensive posture; ready to clock him.

    More importantly,once engaged, I am going to keep beating him until one of us totally down and out. I am going to neutralize the threat to my life and limb.

    At the very least Mr. Zimmerman placed himself in the postion where he was forced to protect his life with a fire arm. So how did he get in this postion? By being both reckless and more that a bit stupid.

    First, for reasons never well explained, he abandons his vehicle to pursue a person of interest on foot. Mind you this person is thought by Mr. Zimmerman to be suspicious. Has Mr. Zimmerman actually considered the situation? Has he fully considered the capabilities and intentions of his target? Um, no, not really. You do realize that under FL “Castle Law” that if Trayvon Martin were packing heat, it could have been Mr. Zimmerman dead on the grass. By abandoning his vehicle and following Mr. Martin, Zimmerman placed himself at risk.

    So, did Mr. Zimmerman have the tools, other than his weapon, to neutralize that risk? Nope. He rushed into a situation he failed to evaluate. He utterly failed to have the proper training to have an appropriate approach to Mr. Martin. He sure as hell did not have back up, or a plan B if the situation deteriorated. He did not have alternant, non-lethal options, just his weapon.

    So, lets go with the full set. He is now in an altercation with a faster, stronger man who is deconstructing him piecemeal. (Maybe, who really knows?) How did he get here? Oh, right, by rushing into the situation without the slightest thought of what the other man might be capable of. Is he getting a beat down? Maybe, we only know of the bloody nose, and the grass stains. Other injuries? Contusions? Lacerations? Broken ribs or other bones? Sorry, nothing there. So at best he is in a bad way, but is his life threatened? Meh, maybe, but only because he rushed in where Angles dare not tread. Most likely the only thing really being injured is his pride.

    Again, how did he get here? Oh right, by taking on the color of law, by over-stretching his authority, his training, his capabilities. Did Zimmerman have the right to ask what Mr. Martin what he was doing in the gated community? Yes he did. And Mr. Martin had every right to suggest some very inappropriate activities for Mr. Zimmerman. What was the approach, what where the non-verbals? Hell if anybody knows for sure. Ask that simple question in the wrong way, and it becomes a threat from a man that outweighs you by 100 pounds. Feet failed Mr. Martin, he may have escalated to fists because he saw no other options. We have no real idea who threw the first blow, or even it there were blows. (Possible scenario, Martin clocks Zimmerman, and Zimmerman, in a fit of rage, guns down Martin.)

    It will be up for a jury to determine if Mr. Zimmerman is criminally liable, but I have no doubt that civilly the man is toast. This case screams tort liability. Zimmerman was reckless, foolish, he ignored common sense, he ignored the direction of the dispatcher, he ignored the most basic rules of use of force and situational awareness. Thank god the man never actually got a real badge because he is one hot mess of an individual.


  139. I understand that Zimmerman weighs 100lbs more than Martin but Martin was 6’3″. Is Zimmerman anywhere near that tall? I don’t think that being fat is equivalent to being big and formidable.

    Martin probably would have had the advantage with longer arms in a physical altercation.


  140. I agree, he th one gov. scot said ” DO NOT RUSH TO JUDGEENT, when it wasclear wha decet fai inedpeople thought .NO NO O !


  141. PleasE fbi. internal affirs please stay on the case .


  142. Like Really Though Get Ah Goddamn Life , Lock That Nigga Up #ThatSimple .


  143. An excellent segment with Ben Jealous and Amy Goodman:

    http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/22/naacps_ben_jealous_justice_for_trayvon

    March 22, 2012

    NAACP’s Ben Jealous: Justice for Trayvon Martin Begins with Killer’s Arrest, Police Chief’s Ouster


  144. The presumption of guilt is palpable, and it’s wrong.

    Neither Ben Jealous nor Al Sharpton is anybody to admire. Both of these guys are not really working for Black people. Ben Jealous was basically forced on the NAACP. They have to take somebody that their financial backers like or their money dries up, as it did when Ben Shavis was in charge. Sharpton, of course his claim to fame is grandstanding over the Tawanna Brawley hoax. It’s back to the same old tricks for him.

    I find it interesting that both these shills have been down to Florida stirring the pot.


  145. You know I feel threatened by certain people who look like defense attorneys. By this author’s logic, I can follow him around to see what crimes he might commit and if I think he is armed, I can shoot him.


  146. March 23, 2012, 10:50 am

    Obama Speaks Out on Trayvon Martin Killing

    By MICHAEL D. SHEAR

    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/obama-makes-first-comments-on-trayvon-martin-shooting/?hp


  147. on 1, March 23, 2012 at 1:22 pm Anonymously Yours

    AN,

    Are they going to have a beer afterwards…..


  148. This could have easily been President Obama Daughter wih a hood own her head walking in GZ neighborhood watchman land .


  149. Professor Turley,

    You seem to be missing some important facts, all indicating that Zimmerman did NOT chase Martin, or even follow him very far:

    1. In the first 911 tape, after the dispatcher says “we don’t need you to do that”, Zimmerman says “okay”. Shortly thereafter, it seems pretty obvious that he has either stopped moving, or at least slowed down, because you can’t hear the wind in his cell phone any longer. Moreover, while he initially seemed a little out of breath when talking, he soon resumes talking in a very calm, rested voice, and in a cadence that is not what you’d expect from someone who is chasing, or even searching for, another person.

    2. About a minute after the dispatcher’s comment, Zimmerman says “he ran”, and then, “I don’t know where this guy is”. If Zimmerman was chasing Martin, neither of these comments would make much sense.

    3. At least 2 minutes (probably many more) elapsed between the time Zimmerman first says “he’s running”, and the end of the 911 call. I don’t know how long after that the struggle actually started. But the entire community is only about 300 yards across. If Martin was so eager to get away from Zimmerman, he could have easily made it back to the house where he was staying in less than 2 minutes.

    Another thing I find strange about your comments is that there seems to be no evidence that two shots were fired. I heard one shot in the 911 tape with the screaming. And several of the other 911 callers said they only heard one shot.

    Anyway, food for thought.


  150. By the way, the 911 call you linked is heavily edited (for what purpose, we can only speculate).

    This is the complete recording, all 4 minutes, 10 seconds of it.

    One other point you didn’t mention: Zimmerman did not mention his race of his own accord, he was answering a question of the dispatcher.


  151. Manny Orlo, you give a perspective many would have not. However, in my humble opinion, I feel your perspective is clouded by an overwhelming urge to make a man clearly guilty of poor judgment (understatement of the year) and armed with a false sense of authority, out to be completely innocent and well within his rights to do all that he could to protect his “hearth and home.”

    Spincitysd, you give a perspective that Manny Orlo should seriously, at least, consider. Well articulated. Thank you.


  152. On the comment of race being an issue: no one except for Zimmerman knows for sure if his actions were motivated mostly by race. However, his attitude on the 911 called seemed to be against suspicious people and not black people. His previous involvement with the law and law enforcement also seems to point more toward a desire to catch the bad guy, than catch the black guy. Being Hispanic does not take him out of the racist race, but it would seem a little difficult to come from a mixed race family and be a racist…but stranger things have happened. I have come across as many racist Hispanics in South Florida (many with darker skin than my own) as I have racist Caucasians.

    The human race…gotta love ‘em…


  153. The public reaction, and even the comments to your blog highlight a really troubling issue with these kind of cases. Very few people actually understand any of the foundational issues at hand, and let their emotional attachment blind them. People ignore the consequences of public pressure on prosecutors, and well…the entire situation is screwed up. So I wrote a related blog about it that I will spam here:

    http://blog.bstovall.com/2012/03/23/trayvon-martin-and-the-justice-system/

    Maybe it’ll shed a little more light to some of the more reasonable people that come through here.


  154. No shortage of defense attorneys for the killer… the killer’s own 911 call tells he’s in his car when the victim is “approaching him” and then going away, meaning in plain reality language: the victim was WALKING PAST THE CAR. Then the killer got out, chased the victim and killed him.


  155. Statement of Robert Zimmerman, father of Neighborhood Watch volunteer:

    “The tragic events of February 26 are very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family, and the entire community have been forever changed.

    The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting are false and extremely misleading. Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas.

    George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends. He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. One black neighbor recently interviewed said she knew everything in the media was untrue and that she would trust George with her life. Another black neighbor said that George was the only one, black or white, who came and welcomed her to the community, offering any assistance he could provide. Recently, I met two black children George invited to a social event. I asked where they met George. They responded that he was their mentor. They said George visited them routinely, took them places, helped them, and taught them things and that they really loved George. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth.

    The events of February 26 reported in the media are also totally inaccurate. Out of respect for the on-going investigation, I will not discuss specifics. However, the media reports of the events are imaginary at best. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.

    Our entire family is deeply sorry for the loss of Trayvon. We pray for the Martin family daily. We also pray that the community will grieve together and not be divided by more unwarranted hate.

    The Zimmerman family will have no further contact with the media prior to the resolution of the investigation. It would be greatly appreciated if the media would respect our privacy.”


  156. [...] on lesser charges while murder charges are probed? You can read Turley’s blog post on the lack of arrest in the Trayvon Martin case here. Category: News Tags : 17 year old killed, controversial law, Florida killing, florida [...]


  157. This certainly doesn’t pass the smell test, but Mr. Turley brings up good points. We simply don’t know enough yet to say this was absolutely a case or racism or murder. It may simply be a case of an idiot doing something stupid (like following a kid minding his own business), the kid confronting Zimmerman, and then things escalating into a struggle. We’ll just have to see what the evidence shows. Until then, people need to keep their cool so that they don’t end up with egg on their face later.

    I guess my biggest question is, in Florida, do you have the right to pick a fight with someone and then claim self defense if you have to end up shooting him? I certainly hope not.


  158. Why is the media ignoring the fact that the “victim” was a 6’3″ football player and ZImmerman was a 5’2″, severely overweight individual?

    Why does the Martin family refuse to provide recent photos of Trayvon, instead only publishing childhood photos?

    I suspect that when the facts come to light, there’s MUCH more to this story than the media is publishing.

    From a legal aspect – how much beating and crying for help must one endure before they fear “serious bodily injury”?

    Do courts feel that a 5’2″, severely overweight individual has a physical advantage over a 6’3″ football player, because his fat weighs more?


  159. spincitysd: Your comments about “how would you feel”…”he had not right”, Zimmermans level of intelligence or wisdom, etc are all meaningless in the eyes of any prosecutor. Do you get that? None of that is illegal. Even whether or not he followed dispatch’s suggestion/guidance is not illegal, which Zimmerman is on record both in the 911 call and in the police report as actually following dispatch’s suggestion.

    What you and so many others need to get is to understand the fundamental basis of the rule of law and it boils down in this case…to who initiated legally defined assault. The witnesses in the 34 minutes of 911 recording reported seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman. Did you not notice that?

    Look, Zimmerman may have been unwise in any respect, but there is ZERO evidence to show he initiated legal assault on Martin.

    In fact, to the contrary, Martin’s OWN GIRLFRIEND literally seals Zimmermans traditional self defense (he doesnt even need the silly “stand your ground” defense, all he needs is traditional self defense)

    In her statements Martin initiates verbal contact that is calm, Zimmerman replies with verbal contact which is also calm and a fair question “What are you doing here”. The next move is Martin’s, and clearly he chose to pre-emptivley strike. In fact he decked the poor unwise slow fat Zimmerman and instead of taking this opportunity to flea, he got on top of him and beat his head in.

    Yes, there were “other injuries”. He was bleeding from the back of his head! Not serious enough for you? Why don’t you have a thug get on top of you and beat your head until your nose is bleeding and you are bleeding from the back or your head, then come back to me….

    Also, there is ZERO evidence that Martin was “cornered” and even if he was he DECKED Zimmerman and could have run away when he was off his feet.

    Zimmerman could have easily not followed Martin and just “continued his patrol of the area” a common thing for neighborhood watch. He could have simply rounded a corner (not knowing where Martin was at that point) and walked right past Martin and had Martin not chosen to engage verbally with Zimmerman, Zimmerman may have just kept on walking by.

    Neither of them were “out of breath” per Martin’s girlfriends account.

    If the Martin lawyer was more intelligent, he would know that Martin’s girlfriends account literally seals Zimmermans traditional self defense.

    I really hope you see now why no just the Sanford Police, The Justice Dept, the FBI, not one of three different organizations have tried to arrest Zimmerman. Maybe its because they really understand what the rule of law means.

    Help yourself and other concerned friends come to terms with all of this and extricate yourself from the lynch mob against Zimmerman.

    If Zimmerman goes down for this then America’s rule of law itself is literally under attach and none of us are safe from arrest if enough people sign enough signatures and spin enough deceptions against any one of us.


  160. Rafflaw – The evidence is in the police report and in the witness testimony that Martin was on top of Zimmerman prior to the gunshot and Zimmerman had a bloodied face, wet grass stains on his back, and bleeding from the back of his head. Immediately following the shot a witness confronted the scene and immediately Zimmerman told the witness to call 911. There was no opportunity for him to “fabricate” these injuries prior to this.

    Guess what? Thats why three different government agencies all agree he should not even be arrested. Two of which are federal so you can’t blame it on the mean old racist Sanford PD.

    Please, do America a favor (seriously), and spread the word to stop the emotionalized lynch mob against Zimmerman. This isn’t Iran, its America where you aren’t arrested “just because” enough people say you should be, but most internet posters could care less they just want to see Zimmerman’s head on a pole.


  161. Regarding this article: http://www.inquisitr.com/209800/trayvon-martin-case-solid-grounds-to-arrest-zimmerman-legal-expert-says/

    I read this article…where are the “solid grounds”? Its just more emotionalism it seems

    Is it just that the FBI, Justice Dept, Sanford PD, and State prosecuter all are blind to these “solid grounds” and all incompetent…or are these grounds not solid at all?

    All of the witnesses on record support Zimmerman
    The police report, supports Zimmerman
    The 911 calls (all of them) support Zimmerman.

    So tell me again what those oh so “solid grounds” are for arrest that the whole rest of the world is missing?


  162. joe bob: You gotta define “pick a fight”. What the law cares about are violated statutes. Think back to high school. What did the principal/dean always ask when deconstructing a fight between two folks? Did they care at all what was said? Did they care who walked where?

    Nope, they asked who threw the first punch and that person is the one that gets the blame

    Walking around, even staring at someone, even spewing verbal nonsense at someone is all technically legal.

    Whats not legal is someone RESPONDING with ASSAULT upon someone else. Unfortunately, that is how Martin chose to deal with this situation. It is too bad he didn’t just answer the question or at least cry for help immediatley. Instead he decided to explode on Zimmerman, and that means the law is not on his side

    If you have kids, teach them that if they are on private property and a stranger approaches them asking them questions, DO NOT ATTACK THEM.
    You don’t have to talk to them, but you can’t just attack them.

    Best thing is to run away or if you can’t run away then call for help. If they assault you first then you have the option to defend yourself with violense but as a parent I would discourage that as an absolute last resort…just for reasons like this. You have no real idea what the capability is of the person you are facing. The key is understanding the difference context of private property and public property. Sadly most kids and most parents are clueless about these things let alone in a position to educate


  163. Re: “the witness testimony that Martin was on top of Zimmerman prior to the gunshot”

    Would a racist troll have any other reference to that “witness testimony” than one Fox News report of somebody anonymous claiming something which is then repeated endlessly on your kind of sites like stormfront, davidduke, cofcc etc…?


  164. acerbic1 – You are calling me a ‘racist troll’ Really? And you are also overlooking the police report where Zimmerman has wet grass stains on his back and bleeding from the back of the head and the nose? Really? I don’t know why I should bother responding to such a reactive thoughtless post, but here I am doing it.

    Thanks for becoming yet another statistic of ill informed, kneejerk internet posters.

    here are your undeserved cites. You should apologize, if you have any integrity.

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

    The 5th 911 call in the posted 34minute stream. The witness reports that someone(Martin) is on top of the “guy in red” (Zimmerman). The guy in red was confirmed to be Zimmerman in the police report and we all know Martin was wearing a grey hoodie.


  165. You guys are arguing points that so far have all the credible reliability of backyard gossip over the fence. There is a lot we do not know and will not know for a while. We do know a couple of things. The local police totally screwed up and whatever investigation they did was reminiscent of the Keystone Kops. I work with law enforcement, and am comfortable saying this is one of the most massively botched “investigations” of a shooting I have ever heard of, and I have been at this professionally for forty years.

    We know that the investigation would have stopped where it did, were it not for blogs like this one and social media. We know that as he was pursuing Treyvon Martin, he uttered this phrase under his breath, which was caught on the 911 recording. This version has been slowed down to 75% speed on the third iteration and run through professional audio equipment using CoolEdit software to clear up background noise. Make of this what you will. If a radio announcer in New Hampshire can clean the audio up this well and upload to SoundCloud in less than twenty minutes, think what the FBI forensic audio lab can do.

    http://soundcloud.com/kestrel9000/911clip


  166. Otteray Scribe – Where to begin…

    Yeah the media/internet circus is nuts…its mob justice at best

    Whatever your law enforcement creds are, sure, lets pretend the sanford police are all just bumbling idiots. Then why has’t the justice department or the FBI rectified the bad investigation and arrested Zimmerman? I know why, its because there is no case, period and now another eye witness is reporting Trayvon was the aggressor. Sorry

    Regarding the phrase? Its irrelevant regardless, here is why
    If you do technical backflips to clear it up at best he “may” have said any of the following (he has an accent)
    –f’ng coons
    –f’ng cones (There are pine cones on the ground this time of year and I myself have stepped on them by accident and almost sprained my ankle. Could also be traffic cones)
    –f’ng cold (The wind picked up clearly when this was said so wind chill would explain this)

    So in court, this won’t hold water considering the alternatives avaialbe and Zimmerman will be the one to explain what/why he was saying so this is really a nothingburger in the final analysis

    Now lets assume everyone were to be unanimous that it was a racist epithet (like Zimmerman says yeah it was f’ng coons), its still okay, because being racially biased/racist (we all are to some degree) is NOT A SILVERBULLET to arrest the guy (its not a crime) and it’s certainly not enough to charge him with murder considering there is now OVERWHELMING testimony and present witnesses that ALL 100% back up Zimmerman’s account.

    Of course if he was racist and he murdered someone soley for the race its a clean cut hate crime, but the eye witness testimony showing Martin beating Zimmerman’s head in when Martin elected not torun away after decking Zimmerman shows he was the one that would have been criminally liable.

    Zimmerman was crying for help to AVOID killing Martin, but Martin didnt let up and noone came to help. So Zimmerman had to, in the last moment, as a last resort break out the gun to shoot him


  167. Manny, the fact that the police did not take Zimmerman to a hospital leaves his story questionable. How do you know that was his own blood, and not the blood of the victim? Pretty easy to mark yourself with your victims blood.

    How does anyone know if Zimmerman had even a scratch on him? The police department in Sanford has let go a few white violent offenders including a police captains son who violently attacked a minority homeless man for no reason. No charges. The police department has not been trustworthy in the past, injustice has prevailed in the past, so why should we believe anything they say? Everything they have done is suspect.

    Even if Trayvon took a swing at Zimmerman, it was no threat to his life. the only lethal threat came from the gun carried by Zimmerman. Or did he think Trayvon was going to kill him with an ice tea?


  168. Manny, the investigation is very new. It is just now being staffed. There will be a whole lot of people to interview, evidence to be gathered, and the stuff presented to a Grand Jury. As for probable cause for an arrest, that will happen when the brand new investigators decide, not the locals who have already made up their minds. If it were my call, at this very moment I would not make the arrest–at least not yet; but I would sure like to spend about twenty hours of my time interviewing Zimmerman. Which apparently is about 19.7 hours more than the police did, from the unverified reports I have seen.

    As for the “word” do not forget Zimmerman speaks with a southern accent. You know, the accent where “dogs” comes out “dawgs.” And so forth.


  169. I have a hard time imagining this boy decking Zimmerman. Hardly possible. Trayvons friend said he was pushed when she was talking to him on the phone. Sounds like Zimmerman made first contact because the child was on the phone at the time.


  170. Manny, I am a forensic scientist. If you put my real name in Google Scholar-Legal, you will get over six hundred ‘hits.’ I am a professional at this. At this point, neither one of us is privy to the investigation which is just getting underway. We do not know who is going to say what. Zimmerman and his father have a vested interest in making exculpatory statements, so I take their pronouncements with a very large grain of salt.

    Why do you think I said I would like to have at least twenty hours with him? To discuss the weather?


  171. shano – Zimmerman was treated by paramedics/emt

    regarding whose blood was on his head…do you realize that all witnesses who reported seeing the fight confirm it was Zimmerman who was underneath Martin on the ground?
    Plus Zimmerman had grass stains on his back…Zimmerman has no opportunity to fake the grass stains without witnesses seeing him do such a thing
    Yes, its time to come to terms with the media deception you have been fed

    We have the police and emt reports of his injuries

    Okay, sure, the mean old Sanford PD are rednecks. What about the FBI and Justice Dept and State prosecutor? Them too right and thats why Zimmeran hasn’t been arrested yet?
    They have been sittin on this for quite awhile now.

    Wow, you are so wrong and it wasn’t “a swing”. Martin 6’3 160lb first DECKED Zimmerman 5’2 250lb, then instead of running away
    he opted to sit down on top of zimmeran and beat his face in. Thats criminal and Zimmeran could have shot him then
    but no…he actually endured the violent dominating beating while crying for a third party to intervene. But all the witnesses were terrified
    So Zimmerman reluctantly shot him to save himself from serious injury.
    If you have never had someone on top of you keeping you down while they beat your face in against the ground then youu simply do not know
    how deadly that can be. If Martin was using an un-opened can of Arizona ice tea to beat his face its even worse
    The only thing worse than a fist is a fist with a rock in it for a soda can


  172. Hyperbolic claims, rumors, and speculation are not evidence.

    Evidence is what the Judge allows in and is subject to cross examination. Then the trier of fact, the jury, will decide whose story to believe. Manny, you can bloviate all you want, but repeating the story does not make it necessarily true. You have the same problem the local police do. Don’t confuse you with facts because your head is already made up.


  173. What a stunning display of unsupported speculation.

    This is what a GoldmanSachs board meeting must be like.


  174. Gene,
    You are right that most of Manny’s claims are just pulled out of thin air. Doesn’t Trayon get to stand he ground?


  175. Gene, I had an interesting experience during an interview a year or so ago. I use a structured interview format in which I ask a long series of questions which can be answered mostly with a yes or no response. After talking with the subject for quite some time, I told him that I wanted to be sure I was getting everything down correctly. I then started to read back the series of structured questions I had asked him two hours earlier. To the very first one, he responded, “Uh, yes. Um, no. Uh, I think yes. Hell, I don’t remember.” At that point he became very upset and ended the interview. He knew he had been busted.

    I am reminded of a comment made to me by an FBI agent years ago. In reference to a suspect whose stories kept changing, the agent said, “He seems to think I have been in in this business about two weeks.”


  176. I’m just waiting for Manny to blame it on the hoodie, raff. Or the Fed. He may even go so far as to blame the former Soviet Union. After all, if Zimmerman hadn’t been so afraid of Communism, he might not have felt compelled to shoot the boy. Everyone knows you’re a Communist if you eat Skittles.


  177. Gene,
    Those Skittles are dangerous.


  178. OS,

    The human mind is a terrible thing and it should be stopped in our lifetime. :D

    Judging by our current crop of political leaders and commentator’s like Manny who apparently like to improvise reality as they go along, I’d say we’re well on our way to reaching that goal.


  179. Manny,
    I live in a gated community. In Florida obtaining a gun license is easy. There is sometimes. hostility among residents on a host of minor issues. Some times black children walk home from school in my neighborhood. So I guess from your viewpoint I could harass them to the point where they strike back and then shoot them dead,while I’m protecting the neighborhood from what exactly? This may not be “murder one”, but murder it is. That’s assuming what you say is true, but I somehow don’t think it is true.


  180. Mike,you would not be harassing them. You are just standing your ground no matter how far you far you follow them.


  181. Raff, ah, that explains it then.

    I once punched a stalker in the face a few times. Everyone thought I was within my rights in 1993.


  182. I will engage in a fantasy: Zimmerman pushes Trayvon causing him to drop cell call, tripping forward but not falling.
    Then Zimmerman tackles Trayvon, getting grass stains and smashing his nose on the ground or on a zipper, belt buckle.

    hmmm. the possibilities are endless!


  183. rafflaw / Oteray Scribe / Gene H

    Its easy to say “its all speculation and exaggeration” yet nothing is indicated as such specifically.

    Every single thing I say is based on the following published evidence ( see below…if you actually care). Seriously…you guys are embarrassing yourselves to people
    that have been poring over ever bit of evidence that has been made public…cause some really care

    Perhaps none of you have actually read/listened to all of the below and so you are just assuming what I am saying is blind mindless speculation
    Spare us all the tooting of your own credentials and just stick to the published evidence thats out there or quote my statement and I will rebut that…if I have any patience remaining

    However, if you actually go through these you will realize, “Oh wow, Manny
    wasn’t just pulling this stuff out of thin air”

    Really…Any of you. Have the guts to challenge something specifically or don’t bother posting your baseless accusations
    that I am just speculating. Speculation and snap judgements by the “anti-zimmerman lynchmob” that are literally saturating the internet right now is the only
    reason I am spending all this time posting on sites to counter.

    There needs to be more balance and less emotional knnejerk drivel bloating the news sites and comments section influencing the perspective of under informed folks

    the sources
    1) The Police Report – Go ahead and read it, its online and contains over half a dozen witness reports – ALL support Zimmerman
    2) The 34 minutes of raw 911 calls. They are online, go ahead and listen to ALL of them. They are not fake and all support Zimmerman’s story
    3) Martin’s girlfriend’s deposition.
    4) The report by the eyewitness (John) that totally obliterates ANY CHANCE Zimmerman will be arrested or charged. He saw Martin viciously beating Zimmerman while he kept the obese man pinned ON HIS BACK on the ground. The “new” special prosecutor released this part just today…probably to help quiet the nonsense firestorm that keeps brewing against Zimmerman…fueled by people like you in the lynchmob

    Every source of evidence corroborates and compliments the rest.

    So…you were unhappy with which point I have made again exactly and specifically?

    –A weary Manny


  184. on 1, March 24, 2012 at 6:51 am Otteray Scribe

    Manny, you keep referring to “published evidence.” It is pretty clear that the word does not mean what you seem to think it means. It is NOT evidence. The reports published so far are allegations, not evidence. For investigative purposes, they may be regarded as “clues.” A clue is not legal evidence. It does not become evidence until one of the attorneys in the case presents it to the judge as an exhibit, the judge accepts the exhibit and it is cross examined. At that point the jury can regard it as “evidence” at trial. Or not, if in their deliberations, determine the evidence is not credible.

    Here is the dictionary definition of “Legal Evidence”

    In law, various things presented in court for the purpose of proving or disproving a question under inquiry. Includes testimony, documents, photographs, maps and video tapes.

    Trial evidence consists of:

    1. The sworn testimony of witnesses, on both direct and cross-examination, regardless of who called the witness; 2. The exhibits which have been received into evidence; and Any facts to which all the lawyers have agreed or stipulated.

    Arguments and statements by lawyers are not evidence. The lawyers are not witnesses. What they say in their opening statements, closing arguments, and at other times is intended to help you interpret the evidence, but it is not evidence; Questions and objections by lawyers are not evidence. Attorneys have a duty to their clients to object when they believe a question is improper under the rules of evidence; Testimony that has been excluded or stricken, or that the jurors have been instructed to disregard, is not evidence and must not be considered.


  185. Manny you should of phrased it as it’s EVIDENT by whats has been released so far that ……….

    However one of your explanations has you grasping for straws

    “–f’ng cold (The wind picked up clearly when this was said so wind chill would explain this)”

    It’s FLORIDA and it’s SPRING

    Now I will say this. IMO this is all a bunch of hooey as far as the media is concern. In the famous words of Grafalo this is racism straight up. It’s people who can’t stand the fact that a black man is in the White House. MSNBC is now blaming Rush Limbaugh and George Bush for this.

    As far as the incident, it was a tragedy. End of story. If George’s father is correct in re to his letter about the blacks George encountered in his life be it from his own family or people in the neighborhood than it has nothing to do with race.


  186. Why do you claim police “discouraged” Zimmerman from pursuing? All they said was that he did not “need” to pursue. They never advised him not to.

    It’s not just you, by the way, it’s thousands of sites. You all seem to be imputing words to the police dispatcher that directly contradict what he said.


  187. First Zimmerman was told NOT to follow Trayvon….Second, there DID appear to be racial bias/prejudice, Third, the fact Zimmerman took matters into his own hands clearly show he should be arrested and charged for murder. “These a$$holes always get away” clearly shows he had an intent to stop Trayvon, no matter what Trayvon was doing…and as far as I am concerned, Zimmerman should be charged on the basis of the above alone…Murder 1st Degree – He disregarded police dispatchers – took matters into his own hands and he became the aggressor – all for no good reason…Zimmerman deserves life in prison – no parole; period


  188. Even if Zimmerman was told there was “no need” to pursue, he still did – took matters into his own hands…needs to be held accountable for that.


  189. “However, if you actually go through these you will realize, “Oh wow, Manny
    wasn’t just pulling this stuff out of thin air”” -Manny Orlo

    Like the “broken nose”, Manny?


  190. Alright all you dimwit race hustlers, explain something for us:

    When a bunch of white people in Arizona enacted laws intended to reduce illegal immigration, you filthy hustlers cried “RACISM” because Hispanics were being unfairly singled out. In that case Hispanics were the victims and “regular” white people (as usual) were the offenders.

    Now a Hispanic guy kills a black kid and the hustlers are back. Now the Hispanic guy is seen as a white guy, and the black kid is an innocent victim of his whitey racism.

    I know “George Zimmerman” SOUNDS like a white name, but Mr. Zimmerman is actually Hispanic, which according to last years standards makes him a VICTIM of whitey racism–not a purveyor.

    Is the race hustling industry really that hard up for examples of white oppression? Can’t you find a black hooker willing to claim a bunch of spoiled, rich white boys sodomized her. Or maybe you could count how many black people are getting tickets on the Jersey Turnpike and claim profiling by the whitey cops. Anything. Cause accusing an Hispanic of white racism just makes you sound silly.

    Also, would it kill you losers to actually wait until you have some facts before condemning this (poor victim of white racism/filthy purveyor of white racism)?


  191. It appears many people would like to see a modern day version of a lynch mob pull Zimmermann from his home and hang him from the highest tree. I have more faith in the criminal justice system and believe the truth will come out when all the facts are taken into consideration. So far it’s pretty much been a one sided story in favor of Martin.
    I don’t automatically believe the storyline that he was just a sweetfaced kid on his way home from a candyrun for his brother. Does anybody else find it odd that the only photos of Martin we have seen are about 5 or 6 years old. Surely there is at least a more recent yearbook picture. Could it be the family and a sympathetic media are painting a picture of Martin that may not the case.


  192. Trayvon Martin Case: Teen’s Friends Say He Never Picked A Fight

    By CHRISTINE ARMARIO 03/23/12 11:40 PM ET AP

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/slain-teens-friends-say-h_n_1376135.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D146280


  193. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judge-h-lee-sarokin/george-zimmerman-self-defense_b_1374135.html

    Shouldn’t George Zimmerman Be Required to Prove Self-Defense?

    by Judge H. Lee Sarokin
    Retired federal judge

    Posted: 03/23/2012 5:23 pm

    Imagine this scenario: a man shoots and kills someone. He tells the police he was temporarily insane at the time. So they say “OK you can go home and take your gun with you,” because they can’t contradict his claim of insanity at the time of the killing. Ridiculous? Yes, but according to CNN: “Police say they have not charged Zimmerman because they have no evidence to contradict his story that he shot in self-defense.” Am I missing something here? The only evidence of self-defense comes from the person who shot the victim. Doesn’t he have a motive to lie? Isn’t his credibility an issue? Aren’t there surrounding circumstances that place the claim of self-defense in dispute? What is undisputed is that George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. Whether or not there is a valid defense to that shooting is not a determination to be made by police — particularly when based solely on the word of the shooter.

    It would be unfair to reach any conclusions about Mr. Zimmerman’s guilt at this stage, but it is likewise unfair to Trayvon Martin and his family to find Zimmerman innocent. It sounds as though Mr. Zimmerman admitted the shooting, said it was self-defense, and the police accepted his version and sent him home with the gun used in the shooting! Suppose there is evidence that a man committed a murder and he claims to have an alibi — and “there is no evidence to contradict the alibi”? Does he go free or is he charged and required to present competent and believable evidence of the alibi. The shooting here is admitted. Charges must be filed and the defense has to be proven — not accepted based solely upon the version of the perpetrator.

    Those demanding that charges be filed certainly seem to be on firm ground. Mr. Zimmerman pursued the victim contrary to instructions not to do so. He was much bigger than Trayvon. He had a gun. Trayvon had Skittles. He was “suspicious” of Trayvon apparently without justification or good cause, and there is evidence that he had some predisposition to reach such a conclusion. There is evidence that someone heard Trayvon whimpering before the shooting and that he was running away. His girlfriend heard him ask Zimmerman why he was following him. There is some question about the use of a racial slur. The ultimate question is whether or not Mr. Zimmerman was in reasonable fear for his life and killed Trayvon solely because of that fear. He ultimately may be found innocent, but no sidewalk judgment by a police officer should suffice. Justice requires so much more. Both Mr. Zimmerman and the statute which shields him should be put on trial. (end of article)

    H. Lee Sarokin served on the United States District Court (N.J.) appointed by President Carter, and the United States Court of Appeals (3rd Cir.) appointed by President Clinton. He retired in 1996 after 17 years on the federal bench and now resides in Rancho Santa Fe, CA.


  194. There are many comments here stating that if the victim was white and the shooter was black then the shooter would be in jail. This may or may not be true but it is irrelevant to this case because the shooter is a non-white bi-lingual latino who, according to his father’s recent op-ed, also has some black relatives. What is true is that if the shooter was black and the victim was white, this would never have become a national story. It is a statistical fact (and statistics are numbers, not racism so don’t call me a racist) that more white people are killed by black people then the other way around. Why do stories of black on white crime stay hidden in the local news but stories like this become international and spark protests? Google the story from Lynchburg, Virginia of George Baker, an elderly white man who was beaten to death by 3 black teenagers after leaving his granddaughter’s wedding reception. He wasn’t robbed, he was just beaten to death for fun. Why didn’t this story become international news like the Trayvon Martin case? If the races were reversed and it was an elderly black man who was beaten to death by 3 white teens, I can guarantee you that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would have been on the scene calling it a hate crime. The 3 teens were caught but they were never charged with a hate crime. Are white people who are victims of crime less valuable and therefore it is no big deal when they are killed? I’m trying to understand this. I think Mr. Zimmerman was in the wrong in this shooting but the claim of racism and hate crimes is what gets me upset. Why are some people only upset about racism when the victim is black but are ok with it when the victim is white or Jewish? If racism is wrong then it is wrong in all it’s forms whether the aggressor or victim are white black brown or purple.


  195. Eric:

    “What is true is that if the shooter was black and the victim was white, this would never have become a national story. It is a statistical fact (and statistics are numbers, not racism so don’t call me a racist) that more white people are killed by black people then the other way around.”

    **************

    While statistics are indeed numbers your selective reference to them shows quite the racist slip. The simple fact is that poor people commit more crime than wealthier people. It’s been that way for years- see the Irish mobs of the early twentieth century and the Italian mobs of the mid twentieth century. Race has very little to do with it so why mention race when discussing it unless race is your point? Ipso facto, since African-Americans are disproportionately poor as compared to whites more crime is perpetrated by African-Americans on Caucasians. Nothing too earth shattering there.

    What you left out of your comment and your compassion is that most crime is perpetrated by African-Americans on African-Americans as much out of proximity and interaction as anything. Given the defacto segregation of our society, convenience dictates crime.

    Here are some stats you can chew on — and maybe derive a little compassion from:

    While African Americans comprise 13.5% of the U.S. Population, 43% of all murder victims in 2007 were African American, 93.1% of whom were killed by African Americans.

    Victimizations of African Americans from violent crime which include the following; rape/sexual assault, robbery, aggravated and simple Assault was 24.3% in 2007, with the highest percentages of victimizations within the age ranges of 15-24 totaling a percentage greater than 38%.

    Maybe you cannot see the implicit victimhood in your comment — the-poor put-upon-white-man-syndrome as I call it — but it’s there.

    The point all of us are making is that an unarmed kid died at the hands of a zealot and his motivation MAY have been racial. That’s an assault on all of us since we all have a race — as Jimmy Cannon said commenting on the credit due his race by the dignity of Joe Louis — “the human kind.”


  196. on 1, March 24, 2012 at 12:47 pm Anonymously Yours

    Mespo,

    When you’re arguing with a racist that keeps statistics as a reference point, you can very seldom convince them that 87% of all statistics are made up…… While I agree that many folks are law abiding….. I bet that lots of white folks commit just as many heinous crimes as others….. But for the neighborhood they live in not being targeted by the police is why their conviction rates are lower….. Ever known a judge, attorney, cop to ever do anything illegal and get away with it? Like coke or weed or…. The list can go on…. It has been my experience that minorities in most major city’s are targeted…..

    Something I heard yesterday was about a lady that makes sandwiches for the poor and needy….. Word got around about what part of the city that she’d be in with the food…. Folks flocked to the van….. The city didn’t like where they were being fed ….. Not only did they try and close and illegal food vendor….but they fined her 2000 dollars to boot….. What is wrong with this picture…..


  197. mespo727272, you missed the point I was making and your statistics have nothing to do with this story. Here is my point, plain and simple… When a black person murders a white person, it is treated as a murder. When a white person murders a black person, it is treated as a murder AND a hate crime. And if the police screw up the investigation (as in the Trayvon Martin case) then it makes international news and becomes the dominant story on the cable news networks and everyone claims racism. Why is it only a hate crime when the victim is black? Why is it only racism when the victim is black? I was never asking why black people have a higher rate of violent crime which is what you were trying to explain with your statistics. I was only asking why a crime such as the George Baker murder I mentioned, is not considered a hate crime and gets no media coverage. I do not like the double standard. I think racism is wrong, period. Therefore, racism in all its forms, white on black, black on white or any other combination, is wrong. By the way, I never mentioned what color my skin is but you said I have “the-poor put-upon-white-man-syndrome”. I find the assumption of my skin color and your judgements based upon my perceived skin color to be racist. You have judged me on what you think my skin color is and that is wrong. Please, judge people not by the color (or perceived color) of their skin but on the content of their character. You will have a happier life if you do not see racism in everything or judge people via race.


  198. Eric:

    I’m not judging you, merely your comments. It’s a hate crime if it meets the legal definition, i.e., “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.” Thus any crime motivated by racial animus is a “hate crime,” rendering a person of any race capable of it. My point is that you paint all Caucasians as victims and, while individual ones may well be, the race is certainly no more victimized by African-Americans that African-Americans are and were victimized by Caucasians. if you are lamenting people’s parochial feelings about these types of scenarios, I suspect you will be lamenting a long time, but thankfully we have courts of law where reason and not emotion rules the day. That’s why courts of law should be handling this and not Al Sharpton on one side and pick your favorite conservative racist on the other. That’s the salient point.


  199. I WANT THOSE 911 TAPES PLAY ON EVERY MOUNTAIN TOP IN THE USA, I WANT TO HEAR THOSE 9111 TAPES ON MTV OVER AND OVERS AND OVERS


  200. Would like to find out about the report that Zimmerman was on the ground, found bleeding and that Martin was on top of him punching him a witness reported. As well Trayvon had been suspended for five days at school so that was why he was in the neighborhood which is not the best. If some of this comes out as true then there are a lot of people including his parents and the media that are going to need to apologize. And one last thing why do they use a picture of Tryvon that is old and shows him at a younger age for Trayvon was 6′ 2″ and no longer looks like the pics the press has been using.


  201. As far as I’m concerned this is a slam-dunk of a case even under Florida’s absurd “stand your ground ” law. First let’s correct one thing, Police say that only a single shot was fired from Zimmerman’s gun. No warning shot or “struggle shot” was ever fired. Martin was shot in the chest at a downward angle indicating Zimmerman was on top of him when the shot was fired. given that Zimmerman outweighed Martin by over 100lbs there is no objectively reasonable fear for his life at that point, All he has to do is sit on the victim until the police arrive. Instead he fired, a single, instantly lethal shot into the victim suggesting he had time to both aim and fire his weapon.

    But most importantly, the law of Self-defense has been crystal clear for centuries. If you initiate a violent encounter you cannot claim self-defense if you kill/injure the other party. AT BEST you can argue mutual affray instead of murder/assault. There is no question that Zimmerman, completely unlawfully, initiated the encounter that led to Martin’s death by accosting him in the first place.


  202. If everyone is concerned about the facts coming out, here’s a suggestion:

    Have a trial!

    Now, how we get to that point is a matter for constitutional lawyers, self-defense criminal attorneys, etc. etc. B ut for the public, I think the answer is pretty much, “CHARGE THE SHOOTER” and then we get to have a trial. Then, the height of the deceased victim (which some commenters think is very significant, making me feel very glad to be short); the history of school suspension and its reason (whether tardiness, propensity for unprovoked attacks on self-appointed patrolmen, or perhaps some other as yet unplowed field of adolescent misconduct), a history of domestic violence and diversion program justice (channel your anger so you attack defenseless kids rather than armed police officers trying to make an arrest); and all the other factual issues can be litigated in one of our well-known-to-be-above-reproach courts of law. Good idea? Here’s one citizen who likes it, anyway.

    Now OFF the facts and ONTO the law. What if, say, Trayvon Martin actually stood his ground and used all the power he had (regardless of his height, weight, training and cardiac capacity) to punch Zimmerman’s lights out. I would have guessed, if that WERE the evidence proven at a TRIAL — which we cannot have unless there is a charge of a crime — that it was Martin, NOT Zimmerman, who stood his ground. He stood his ground and exercissed his rights under Florida law and lost and was killed, but still, he did stand h is ground. For that, under Florida law, he cannot be blamed for the violence. He as undoubtedly afraid.

    IF he was a criminal who had gotten himself suspended from school and who harbored an intent to do some harm at some time to somebody, he STILL haed a right at the moment of confrontation to stand his ground when Zimmerman appeared. In fact, even if he had been a convict who was out on parole, at the time Zimmerman appeared, Martin had a right to stand his ground.

    LAW: If you’re scared you have a right to stand your ground.
    CONCLUSION: If Zimmerman was scared of Martin when he saw him, he had a right to sit there in his car with his gun and NOT RETREAT.

    He should have taken it.


  203. Yes and that witness says that Trayvon Martin was “beating up” George Zimmerman.

    This mass-agitation to have George Zimmerman arrested should die now, if facts mean anything.


  204. Turley’s previous statement on the issue did not take account of this witness who saw Martin pummeling Zimmerman and Zimmerman screaming for help.

    Even without that, when there seemed to be no corroboration of Zimmerman’s account, Turley thought a conviction would be unlikely

    To prosecute a man when there is no chance of a conviction is nothing but harassment.


  205. Where are the medial doctor reports or emergency room documentation who was the medical degree person who can give testimoney others than people on his side , he had better have some kind of medical reports backing up this lie ,a broken nose who set it and gave him profesional medical help for this fratures lies lies lies .


  206. [...] find it entirely impressive that accomplished attorneys like Jonathan Turley can declare the examined evidence “murky,” yet the motive and events have been clearly deciphered by [...]


  207. Feeling that most of the physical evidence has been tainted by the Sanford PD, siding with their ‘pet’, the son of a judge.
    But the bullet trajectory can be found if a competent autopsy was done. And the voice screaming for help can probably be sussed out.

    It seems like he never stopped stalking Trayvon if you listen to the tapes. Trayvon was ON THE PHONE talking to a friend when Zimmerman attacked him.

    DW, I ,too, want to see the medical report on
    Zimmerman.


  208. H Scott, yes there is a witness who states those screams came from the child, not the stalker. With the statement that the police tried to get her to change her statement, telling her the screams came from Zimmerman. This is usually called ‘leading the witness’. How many others were led in this way and then written up?

    This is why we need a trial.


  209. Well said, shano. Excellent points and insights.

    Dweetta Adams,

    Yes, to seeing the medical reports…


  210. on 1, March 24, 2012 at 5:56 pm Otteray Scribe

    Did the police have a motivation to exonerate Zimmerman? Well, lessee now, let’s think for a moment about the letter his father wrote to the Orlando Sentinel:

    “The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting, are false and extremely misleading,” wrote his father, Robert, a retired magistrate judge, in a letter published in the Orlando Sentinel….

    (emphasis mine)

    Source:
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-zimmerman-not-racist-trayvon-martin-20120324,0,7754648.story


  211. “We are committed to having somebody review this to see if we made a mistake,” said Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett. “If we made missteps and there is something there, we will act accordingly.”…
    Didn’t have a homicide detective interview the suspect, coerced a witnesses testimony, didn’t interview the girlfriend on the phone before releasing him, didn’t give him a (manditory, part of the gunowners permit) drug and alcohol test, didn’t even use the phone to find out his name, John Doe’d him to the coroners office,…
    There, there’s a START for your list, Mr. Mayor


  212. on 1, March 24, 2012 at 6:20 pm Otteray Scribe

    shano,

    I just found a short video clip of the Sanford Police Department in action.


  213. Well done Manny. There are many people out there who are unsure of how this case is being presented, but don’t have the stamina to debate the knee-jerk reactionaries. The facts are not as clear cut as people say they are.

    Luckily there is a process. We will find out in due time what all of the evidence shows. Not just the selected evidence that conveniently fits a white vs black story line.


  214. And to shano’s list, I’ll add that they didn’t collect Zimmerman’s clothes, as I understand it. The t-shirt might have proven useful.

    OS, I’ve also seen reports that Zimmerman’s father was retired from the military…


  215. OS, thanks, yea, that looks like the Sanford cops all right!

    And you know what Brian? The process should have happened over a MONTH ago. that is why we all have reasonable doubt about the investigation.


  216. Cannot believe that Zimmerman still has his gun! It is unbelievable.

    anon nurse, yes and I am sure we are leaving out some things the Sanford police should have done but did not because;

    unknown black kid in hoodie vs. local police pet and admirer, son of a judge


  217. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706876/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html

    • Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle. Attorneys for the dead teen’s family believe the information was added in a second report to justify the lack of an arrest.

    • Police said witness statements supported Zimmerman’s account. But several of the witnesses expressed surprise, telling The Herald that they reported hearing someone crying for help just before a shot ended the cries. The 911 tapes of witness calls bolstered their claims.

    • One of the witnesses who heard the crying said she called a detective repeatedly, but said he was not interested because her account differed from Zimmerman’s.

    • For nearly a month, police never noticed a profanity Zimmerman mumbled under his breath when he called police, which some people believe was accompanied by a muffled racial slur.

    • Even though investigators have the dead boy’s cell phone, it was Trayvon’s father who combed through the phone records to discover that his son was talking to a girlfriend in the moments that led up to his death. Police never contacted the girl, who told lawyers that Trayvon was alarmed because he was being followed.

    The department defends its investigation and says it welcomes outside oversight. In an interview last week, Lee said the query into Trayvon’s death was “color blind” and thorough.

    He insisted that evidence collected at the scene and from witnesses did not provide enough probable cause to refute Zimmerman’s version that he shot Trayvon in self defense, and says it would have been against the law to arrest him.

    “They are saying that things that aren’t factual, that we had admitted that we didn’t know about George Zimmerman’s criminal history, which is not true,” Lee told The Herald. “We ran his history that morning. I said, ‘He doesn’t have a criminal history, anything that prohibits him from having a concealed weapons permit — which is true. He has an arrest record, but he has not been convicted of anything.”

    The “squeaky clean” quote was out of context, Lee said, and critics “are basing their opinion on what is being portrayed in the media.”

    Trayvon was shot Feb. 26 while walking home from a store where he bought Skittles and Arizona iced tea. Zimmerman called police about seeing a “suspicious person,” and was recorded in breathless pursuit.

    In at least three police interrogations and a videotaped interview, Zimmerman told police he was on his way back to his truck when he was approached from behind by Trayvon, Lee said. Zimmerman said Trayvon attacked him. In fear for his life, Zimmerman said, he reached for the Kel Tek 9mm semi-automatic handgun he kept in a holster on his waist and fired.

    Attorneys for the family say that the blunders that followed demonstrated that detectives never intended to arrest Zimmerman.

    “Police never went knocking door to door that night asking if anybody was missing a kid,” the family’s attorney, Benjamin Crump, said. That’s because it never occurred to police that the boy wasn’t a burglar, so they patted Zimmerman on the back and sent him home, Crump added.

    “They acted like, ‘We’re sorry you had to endure killing this teenager,’’’ he said. “They make it look like Zimmerman is the victim.”


  218. I do not believe Zimmermans story that he was “attacked from behind” by Trayvon.
    That story he told the police is bullshit.

    Trayvon was trying to lose this stalker, had succeeded, but then Zimmerman finds him again while he is talking to his girlfriend.


  219. Law enforcement experts consulted by The Herald agreed.

    “I have never seen such an incompetent investigation,” said Walt Zalisko, a former Jersey City police commander who now owns a police management consulting company in Central Florida. “There are so many problems with this case. The problem up here is that officers receive very little training, and there is very little understanding of diversity issues.

    “The good ol’ boy network is so prevalent here.”

    Zalisko, who has followed the case closely, said he was startled by Zimmerman’s claim that he had left his truck so he could check the name of the street he was on. Making a point that Chief Lee also made, Zalisko said it’s implausible that Zimmerman would not know where he was in a tiny gated community that he patrolled regularly.

    “That’s a lie right there,” Zalisko said. “There are so many inconsistencies in the story. At the very least they should have arrested him, and let the state attorney sort it out.”

    Several experts interviewed said Lee’s biggest mistake was to speak publicly about the decision to not file charges, because it made him look like he was defending Zimmerman.

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706876_p3/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy


  220. on 1, March 24, 2012 at 7:00 pm Sonofthunder Boanerges

    Zimmerman obviously approached the kid in an effort to confront him. Then the hooded kid acting with false bravado responded by feigning attack by putting his hand in his waistband acting as if he was armed. He obviously kept walking fast toward Zimmerman as he said he was doing to his girlfriend on his cell phone. He then obviously started gesturing like a street thug throwing out his arms, reaching in his waistband for a fake gun, and saying loudly and aggressively “What What What…”. Zimmerman passed a VSA (voice stress analysis) when asked if he felt threatened. He showed no stress in his voice indicating truthfulness. It looks like Zimmerman over reacted to the kid’s poor choice of reaction. Zimmerman probably would not have shot if the kid responded in a more peaceful non-aggressive fashion. Zimmerman should still be arrested for manslaughter as he was NEVER in any threat as he never saw a weapon. You can’t shoot someone unless you see a gun. Putting your hand in your waistband is never enough to get shot over. Zimmerman will be arrested by FBI soon as his basis for reacting was apparently racial not because of bona-fide self-defense. During the 911 call he can be heard in the background using the N-word. Zimmerman will be convicted and will spend time in prison. The parents can also file civil case for damages too. They can also sue the gated-community for employing an armed vigilante for security.


  221. Mr. Turley’s original blog about this story was a defense counsel sort of analysis. Of course, defense counsel get to represent criminal defendants. Zimmerman is not a criminal defendant. And why not? Because officers on the scene found it convenient to substitute themselves for all fact-finders and deciders of law, and to replace the discretion of the prosecutor, judge, jury and appeals courts, with their own “discretion.” THEY decided that there was, in their own words, “no evidence that it was not self-defense.” Of course, the only person who could have given evidence that it was not self-defense was, conveniently, the deceased. Or, no, wait a minute, hold on, maybe there WAS other evidence available that it was not self-defense! YEAH! For example:
    1. Zimmerman could have been transported by the police to the emergency room of the hospital for an investigation into his possible defensive injuries; that would have been a good idea anyway to set his poor broken nose and clean up the blood all over him due to the beating administered by the candy-toting teen;
    2. The gun could have been taken into the forensic lab to see if Trayvon Martin’s prints were on it as he attempted to wrestle it away from Zimmerman in order to shoot him;
    3. The cell phone carried by Trayvon Martin could have been sent to the forensic lab to see if there was any of Zimmerman’s blood on it;
    4. Zimmerman could have gone to the station house and made a complete, written statement that could be gone over carefully and helped to reach the conclusion that that crime actually was an attack upon him by an unarmed 17 high school student;
    5. Zimmerman could have been given psychological tests to show that he was the kind of overanxious, easily terrified person who feared for his life because an unknown kid in a hoodie was walking around in a town that did not have a curfew;
    6. Oh there is that little detail — on Zimmerman’s call to the police, he did not mention that he felt afraid. Also, when they said the squad car was coming to him, he failed to tell them where he was, and said only that once they arrived, they should call him and he would THEN tell him where he was. In other words, he wasn’t exactly cowering in his car trying to control his justifiable terror; he was planning a change in geographical location because the “a**hole” was “getting away.”
    Mr. Turley, if you do land the job of defending Zimmerman (which I doubt, since he has most probably disappeared given the amount of time and help given to him by the police and prosecutors in Sanford), I will watch with interest to see how some of the uncontroverted facts are handled.
    More important to me would be the federal charges under 42 USC 1981 that will, I hope, nail these collusive “law enforcement officers” who gave Zimmerman the green light to kill a kid in cold blood.


  222. anon nurse – Sure, pick a detail that is essentially insignificant, but you credit for being specific. Still I doubt you will exit the Zimmerman lynchmob, but here is to hoping.

    As mentioned before, whether the nose was broken or not, Zimmerman had significant injuries as a result of assault, the worst of which is most likely the bleeding from the back of his head (he required stitches). The broken nose was most recently reported by Anderson Cooper.

    The broken nose initially came from a police verbal interview / press conference by one of the responding officers initially.
    Rest assured the EMT/paramedic medical report will show this.

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/zimmerman-attorney-to-anderson-cooper-trayvon-martin-broke-my-clients-nose/


  223. Manny: “Zimmerman had significant injuries as a result of assault,”

    Manny, was Zimmerman ‘assaulted’ or was Martin just standing his ground against a man with a gun that had accosted him?


  224. Sorry – Forgot to paste the link for #4 above:

    4) Here is another one (just the top ones is new). Nice gold teeth right?
    This one definitely matches the previous 11 year old pictures and if you compare facial structure to the next pictures…

    http://suxorz.com/i5/1332569412.jpg


  225. Arg…still getting caught be the filter, going to try breaking up the post

    Hi All – To those of you wanting to see the “real” recent pictures of Trayvon…here you go. The Martin family are really underhanded to try to further spin the real look of their son. What a difference…

    1) Trayvon’s Facebook page. I bet the family really wishes they had the password for this account. The picture off to the left says: Eff them hatters! (poor guy can’t spell ‘haters’). Followed by “Cause we all about getting paper”. That’s thug speak for “money”

    http://www.facebook.com/people/Trayvon-Martin/100001791912868


  226. 2) Here is another picture from facebook, undated, same as one below (guessing 14-15 years old). Why didn’t the media use this picture instead of the 11 year old little boy picture? Probably just an accident right?

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=264458616957200&set=a.264458386957223.61001.100001791912868&type=1&theater


  227. 3) Here is a picture where someone took a more amiable photo of zimmerman and contrasted it with a thugish photo of Martin to tongue lash the media bias. The photos are undated, but the Martin photo I would guess is 14 or 15 years old

    http://i.imgur.com/efT0w.jpg


  228. 4) Here is another one (just the top ones is new). Nice gold teeth right?
    This one definitley matches the previous 11 year old pictures and if you compare facial structure to the next pictures…

    http://suxorz.com/i5/1332569412.jpg


  229. 5) This picture is also undated, but clearly the most recent. To be fair, its possible that it’s not Martin, but I do see a resemblance from the other pictures, so it does seem to be Martin

    http://oi43.tinypic.com/2h3ud1v.jpg

    Do you feel betrayed by the Media and Martin family? You should.


  230. Oh for gods sake Manny, my boyfriend has kids this age, they are lilly white Vermonters and THEY take pictures of themselves in this pose. Every single musician these days has a photo or ten of themselves in these poses. I am not so morbid as you, so could only look at one photo, but you know nothing of the youth culture of 17 year olds these days. They ALL do this.


  231. Manny Orlo:

    “ere is a picture where someone took a more amiable photo of zimmerman and contrasted it with a thugish photo of Martin to tongue lash the media bias.”

    ************************

    Well Manny you proved it to everyone’s satisfaction: Zimmerman had every right to chase that unarmed kid down and blow a hole through his chest with a 9 mm because you found a picture of the kid flipping everyone off and Zimmerman in a coat and tie. You also proved Zimmerman completely innocent and believable because he knows how to tie a full Windsor. If I were Zimmerman and had to resort to this type of defense, I’d just plead guilty and save two weeks of trial. You ought to be a lawyer!


  232. on 1, March 24, 2012 at 9:50 pm Otteray Scribe

    shano:

    Did you know Manny was on YouTube?


  233. shano / mespo727272 / Otteray Scribe

    Sigh…the pictures don’t “prove” anything and I never said they did. They merely reflect the reality of the pictures taken of Martin

    They pictures simply are what they are. Whatever you guys wrote in response, that’s your own projections

    I was merely trying to provide REAL RECENT photos when the Media and Martin family have purposely tried to conceal them from the public

    You prefer the 11 year old Martin spoon fed media pictures…fine, enjoy those like so many other under informed people

    Perhaps other people, with less of a chip on their shoulder, will be appreciative of the hard work it took to dig this stuff up in spite of the information blockade the media has been running

    You three folks are acting like ungrateful children.


  234. This country no longer cares about the rule of law, with the other glaring examples being a lack of indictments in the financial crisis and how some of the best lawyers in the nation are able to write legal justifications for committing torture. . the fact that you, as a law professor at a prestigious university can argue that something as clear cut as this is “murky” shows us how much the law profession has failed us.

    A simple thought experiment if you will . . . had Trayvon Martin actually killed Zimmerman instead, all of the arguments that Zimmerman is making on how it was self defense would have been even more applicable for Martin. He was walking down the street after buying some candy from a convenience store, and some guy started following him. Was Zimmerman going to mug him, maybe he was a rapist or a child molester who was waiting to jump him when he turned the corner and got away from a street light? Maybe that is why Trayvon turned to confront his stalker, when there would at least be some witnesses to call the police. Some law you have there, where whoever loses the fight got what was coming to them. I can see how this confuses you.

    Back in the gunfights of the wild west, the local sheriff would accept an excuse of self defense if the winner didn’t instigate the fight. That is the key component of this issue that you are missing in your long winded justification for murder. Zimmerman had no business being on the street, and he had no business following anybody. The simple act of following someone made him the instigator.

    This is the same as saying that I can go into a biker bar and hit somebody over the head with a whiskey bottle, then shoot them when they try to retaliate and claim it was all just self defense.


  235. on 1, March 25, 2012 at 4:41 am Sonofthunder Boanerges

    Just to clear up some things: MTL the screams for help came from Zimmerman. Why? To help justify the shooting. Did Trayvon hit Zimmerman and bloody his nose? No Trayvon was MTL at least 50′ feet away from Zimmerman when Zimmerman fired his Kel Tek 9mm semi-automatic handgun center-mass into Trayvon (after taking at least 5 seconds to cock it). Then how did Zimmerman get a bloody nose? His father is an ex-judge. He knew this shooting would be deemed as dirty. He MTL bashed his own face into his truck’s hood to make it look good for Sanford Police claiming self-defense. The blood on his shirt was his own. He MTL picked up his 2 shell casings? Why? Because he is MTL trying to tamper with evidence. When he called 911 to report his location he claimed he had to get out of the truck to see where he was. Obviously he was so amped-up and the adrenalin was pumping he forgot that these where his stomping grounds and he knew where he was. This was suspicious behavior. He MTL never checked Trayvon’s body for vitals. He MTL just quickly left the scene for first responders from OTHER 911 calls to respond.

    MTL means “more than likely”.


  236. on 1, March 25, 2012 at 7:23 am Anonymously Yours

    Has anyone noticed that even if martin was the aggressor Zimmerman escalated the situation by following martin…. Even in a situation like this….Zimmerman if he’d been a legalized leo had a duty to use the least force available….. I read the link that Zimmerman dad is or was a former magistrate…. If so, it’s possible that his son was given great deference in this matter….. It is a tragic loss for all involved…. Including Zimmerman….. He’ll never be the same….. I think OS can verify this claim….


  237. on 1, March 25, 2012 at 8:06 am Otteray Scribe

    AY, you are correct. GZ will never be the same. No one involved will ever be the same again. The parents will not either. Having buried my own son, I know there will never be a day, as long as they draw a breath, that the Martin family will not think of him, grieve for him, and ask, “Why?”

    A commenter on another blog wrote to the effect that Zimmerman now has a target painted on him from now on, no matter the outcome, that he is, “A walking dead man.”

    My reply to that comment was this: “If Zimmerman ever does go to prison there is no doubt he could not be allowed in the general population. He will be confined to PC (protective custody), which is 23 hours a day lockdown. On a PC unit, some special classes of high risk prisoners are not allowed out of their cell when there are others out at the same time. PC is no picnic, for either the prisoners or correctional staff who have to work there.

    I would not want to trade places with Mr. Zimmerman.”


  238. AY,

    Spot-on.


  239. “anon nurse – Sure, pick a detail that is essentially insignificant, but you credit for being specific. Still I doubt you will exit the Zimmerman lynchmob, but here is to hoping.” -Manny Orlo

    No, Manny Orlo, I was simply asking for a credible source for the information. Thank you for supplying it. The grand jury and others who are finally investigating this mess will look at the medical records, listen to all relevant testimony and reach rational conclusions, hopefully. (I’m not sure that any “detail” is insignificant in the examination of the evidence. I’m no lawyer, but the phrase “body of evidence” comes to mind…

    And, I’ll say it again, there’s a big difference between a broken nose and one that is simply bloody or bleeding. (Hmmm… the word “triage” comes to mind? ;-) )

    As to being part of the “the Zimmerman lynchmob?” Now, how in the world did you ever reach that conclusion?

    You accuse others of jumping to conclusions but, it seems like you might just be “a man with an agenda.”

    And FYI, perhaps being a nurse is a part of it, but I spent a good deal of time last evening thinking about George Zimmerman, precisely for some of the reasons that OS has related. AY expressed this, as well. There are no winners here, not matter what the outcome.


  240. I’ll correct that:

    There are no winners here, no matter what the outcome.


  241. Manny:

    “They pictures simply are what they are. Whatever you guys wrote in response, that’s your own projections.”

    ********************

    Whatever we wrote in response, that’s our own opinions. Wow, another revelation!

    The point is that we have some experience in criminal law, human nature, and ferreting out liars. That forms the basis for our “projections,” any photographs notwithstanding. What’s your basis?

    That you think many of us so shallow as to rely simply and reflexively on those pictures is your blinder, not ours.


  242. I am reading stories about this case and I cannot find some facts that would interest me.
    1. What time of day did the shooting occur?
    2. It is a gated community – did the young man live there? Did the volunteer watchman live there?
    3. Had there been a record of crime in the community? Any violent crime?
    I wonder about the atmosphere of the setting.


  243. Manny Orlo, you are sounding very defensive. To my knowledge, nobody has yet accused you of either (a) killing Martin or (b) assaulting with intent to great bodily harm Zimmerman, so I really hope you can chill a little and get a little more in touch with your peaceful, calm, introspective and thoughtful (and intelligent) soul. When that happens, which I hope will be soon, I would like you to consider this suggestion. Let’s just take as a GIVEN that your research on the essential nastiness and unworthiness, dangerousness and psychological unfitness of Trayvon Martin (God grant him peace, amen) can all be taken as absolutely true and absolutely probative of the point you make, thanks for all that important work, by the way. OK, so now we have it, taken as true: Trayvon Martin was a dangerous, publicly recognized criminal-ish thug who had no innocent purpose in mind on February 26, 2012. OK, now, how do we deal with the fact that Zimmerman, who was naturally a good guy and to be presumed non-nasty, worthy, non-dangerous, and psychologically FIT had NO IDEA WHO THIS THUG WAS when he saw him, when he reported him to the police, and when he thereafter came within close physical proximity of him. Zimmerman did not tell the police, “Trayvon Martin, well known from his FaceBook pictures and obviously a dangerous thug, is near my car and I am scared to death, HELP HELP!” He said there was a guy there — he was unaware of all the implications that you later discovered. Thanks to lackluster police work, by the way, the dispatcher also failed to warn him: “Be careful, man, that’s the notorious and scary Trayvon Martin who is near you, man, you better hightail it out of the neighborhood ‘fore he kills your sorry scared a**.”

    Manny Orlo, YOU know how dangerous Trayvon Martin was; ZIMMERMAN DID NOT. So he should have left it to the police to come to the scene, ask the presumed thug for his justification for having come into Zimmerman’s line of sight [site], and dealt with it in the sterling and inimitable way that the Sanford Police have of dealing with dangerous situations. (Check out the case of the homeless man Sherman Ware who appeared somewhat thug-like to the Sanford police a few years back.) Come to think of it, that would have been much better; they could have simply punched Martin in the kidneys, smashed his face into a pole, and arrested him, and at his trial, you could have testified that his facebook pictures sure looked criminal to YOU.


  244. Dear Curious:

    Because there has been no trial, none of the facts that have been reported have been subjected to due process, including cross-examination, etc., but so far, this is what seems to be the fact situation:

    1. Zimmerman lived in the community, knew all the street names, knew all the locations of all the residences, and had been intimately involved with his neighbors, including going door to door telling them to watch out for young black men.

    2. There had been several burglaries in the past in that neighborhood, and apparently the police claimed (I saw this mentioned twice in the course of reading about 200 articles) there was a shooting. They did not mention any victim of the shooting, nor did they describe it, nor did any of the people describing Zimmerman point out that there had been any injury attributed to the alleged “shooting” so it could possibly have been somebody’s gun discharging while they cleaned it, or somebody shooting at an animal either out of season or in the wrong place. No more information is offered by the police about that “shooting.” It is not even necessarily a real gun; perhaps the “shooting” was a cap gun or something that produced noise, alarming neighbors.

    3. Trayvon Martin did not live in that gated community, but he was brought into that gated community by his legal and biological father, and was visiting along with his father, and the host and the visitors were watching a Sunday sports event on television when Martin asked permission (and got it, from his legal and biological father) to leave the residence and travel on foot to the local candy store for a snack. Returning to his host’s home (as instructed by his father), at approximately 7:30 p.m., these events ended his life.

    Now, I know you didn’t ask any question that would lead to my #4 below, but I’m going to give you yet another answer for extra credit:

    4. The speculation that when Zimmerman approached Martin, Martin should have calmly and politely accounted for his unexpected presence in ZIMMERMAN’S NEIGHBORHOOD, thus avoiding all the violence, is what I would call an “unwarranted conclusory suggestion” under the circumstances. Zimmerman apparently claimed that he got out of the car to check the street names. That would have been completely unnecessary for him to do, since he already told the police that they should phone him on his cell phone when they arrived in the neighborhood. Why then bother identifying street names — especially since he had already given them the location and the landmarks. Furthermore, if he could see Trayvon Martin reaching into his own waistband (unlikely because Martin was on the phone at the time AND holding a lemonade and candy) why could he not read the street signs?

    I’m sorry I answered a question with a question — so be it. What I meant to say was that the speculation that Martin should have simply spoken humbly and peacefully to Zimmerman is neither logical nor legally supportable. Martin should have been terribly frightened when he was approached by a stranger with the intent to rid the world of the kind of scum Manny Orlo KNOWS Trayvon Martin really was. Furthermore, the days when you can presume that any young African American person must surely know that when a white-appearing man approaches him, he must be humble because his hand is in the lion’s mouth, or that any young African American hoodie-clad person must surely know that he is broadcasting his gangsta persona and any white person nearby has a right to act on that projection with deadly force — those days are OVER. Nowadays, for some reason, biological and legal fathers of young Black men forget their responsibilities to teach their sons the facts of life. Don’t start me on what the legal and biological fathers of young African Americans do to cause all the trouble in this world, just don’t GET me STARTED!…Puh-LEEZ!


  245. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY , JUST BE CAUSE YOU SMELL YOUR LAST NAME NURSE DID NOT MEAN TO ME YOU WAS A NURSE . I am also a Nurse a Retired Nurse work in a County Medical Center for forty years . The word TRIAGE MEAN SOMRTHING TO ME .


  246. Your own Ears and Hearing THE 911 tapes .


  247. Dweetta Adams,

    All I was saying to Manny, albeit indirectly, is that we’ll see how he was triaged — we’ll see how he was handled in the ER. We need to see the medical records before leaping to conclusions about the severity of Zimmerman’s injuries, as you stated in an earlier comment. Was Zimmerman just roughed up a bit as Trayvon was defending himself? Or did he, in fact, sustain a fracture in the scuffle that ensued. My comment to Manny goes back several days… Either way, it seems to me, given what I’ve read and heard (in the 911 communications) that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

    Forty years is a whole lot of nursin’… Kudos. It isn’t easy…

    (Yes, I’m a registered nurse…)


  248. Why is the severity of Zimmerman’s alleged injuries an issue here? He could have been “roughed up a bit” and he could have had his nose broken; neither condition would prove anything about whether or not he should have been charged with a crime for a fatal shooting.

    Possible Scenario 1: Zimmerman followed Martin and confronted him; Martin was frightened, and stood his ground and defended himself to the best of his ability, and managed to “rough up” Zimmerman a bit before getting killed;

    Possible Scenario 2: Zimmerman followed Martin and confronted him; Martin was frightened, and stood his ground and defended himself to the best of his ability, and managed to break Zimmerman’s nose and crack open the back of his head before getting killed.

    Possible Scenario 3: Zimmerman followed Martin and confronted him; Martin was frightened, and tried to run, but Zimmerman grabbed him and they fought, but Martin was unable to do any damage to Zimmerman and in spite of screaming HELP HELP he couldn’t get any help and he was killed, whereupon Martin straddled the body, made sure to bloody up his face and shirt and even wiped some blood on the back of his head (chest wounds do bleed a lot in many cases) and appeared bloodied by the time the police arrived;

    Possible Scenario 4: Zimmerman followed Martin, confronted him, did some damage, then realized he needed to kill Martin because it was possible for him to lose the fight and this second charge against him might not be able to be “fixed” for him so he’d do time, so he figured he really needed to kill the kid, so he did, and when the police arrived, they lied to protect him and give him a chance to get away and disappear before the “**** hit the fan.”

    Possible Scenario 5: A kid with no record for any kind of misdemeanor or other violence suddenly decides to attack a neighborhood watch guy and he does massive damage before the guy manages to shoot him in the chest and kill him so he can’t stand trial for murder.

    Oh, and there are also plenty more possible scenarios.

    Why don’t we find out what really happened by the police drawing charges for a possible crime of which they have a prima facie case — then we can all find out!!


  249. Thank You I agree DA RN..


  250. It’s funny that if anyone here mentions that something doesn’t sound right with this story, people insinuate that they are racist. Or if they say that the media is spinning this story and omitting and obfuscating facts, they are called racists. Some of us, like myself, want to know the truth regardless of the skin color of those involved. Other commenters, like mespo727272, prefer to call people racists instead of wanting to know the truth in this story. When a commenter like Manny Orlo posts some pictures that show how the media has been intentionally distorting this story by showing pictures of a sweet looking 11 year old Trayvon Marting instead of recent pictures that show him looking, for lack of a better term, “less innocent”, some of you called Manny Orlo a racists instead of thanking him for showing you that the facts of this case are being intentionally hidden from many of you. This story has been spun in a way to get a particular emotional response from people. Please, think for yourselves and try to look through the smoke and mirrors. If Zimmerman did actually hunt Martin down and killed him in cold blood, then he should be tried, convicted and sentenced to the chair or lethal injection. But we should not be ready to lynch Zimmerman until we know all the facts. Unfortunately this has become difficult because many of the facts in this case have been hidden and distorted in order to sway public opinion. For instance, most people haven’t heard about the witness who said that Zimmerman was returning to his SUV and was attacked by Martin and it was Zimmerman who was yelling for help or the fact that Martin’s father told the police that the voice crying for help on the 911 tape was not his son’s. Most people haven’t seen those facts but all of us have seen the ugly mug shot picture of Zimmerman and the beautiful picture of Martin smiling and holding a small child. We have also seen the clip of Martin’s mother saying that the voice crying for help on the 911 call was her child. Why are certain facts being kept from us but others are shown 24 hours a day on cable news? The truth is probably somewhere in between Zimmerman’s claim of self defense and the other claim of Zimmerman being a racist who hunted down Martin with the intent of killing him. But as long as we allow the media to form our opinions for us, we will never learn the truth. Instead of calling people racists, why don’t we try to learn the truth?


  251. This is just nuts. One of the 911-callers witnessed Martin beating Zimmerman and he had blood pouring from the back of his head but we’re still going to say it’s not so?

    I am sorry but this kind of thing makes Black people look completely unreasonable.

    By the way, there are some more recent photos of Trayvon Martin available now. He’s not so innocent or harmless-looking in the recent images. http://cdn.stripersonline.com/b/bc/300x248px-LL-bc81f9ba_Trayvon_Martin011-300×248.jpeg


  252. on 1, March 25, 2012 at 7:12 pm Anonymously Yours

    Wow….. Seems like a few of these posting have delved into the nether world of acid and have yet to return to a lucid reality….. But then again, ones reality is what it is… No changing course when the helsman is absence in reality…..


  253. on 1, March 25, 2012 at 7:13 pm Otteray Scribe

    Hadding, there are bogus pictures online. I have seen that crap already today. Beware of counterfeits posted by Zimmerman apologists.


  254. HS, the fact is that Zimmerman put HIMSELF in that position. If it is true at all.

    Trayvon did not stalk George. Trayvon was trying to lose the guy.

    George just would not let go of his paranoid fantasies long enough to follow directions from the 911 operator. George caused the scene, he escalated the scene, now a 17 year old HONOR STUDENT with his whole life ahead of him is DEAD.

    George should go to trial. Let a jury of his peers sort it all out.


  255. on 1, March 25, 2012 at 7:27 pm Anonymously Yours

    OS, Shano…..

    Do you think these folks actually believe what they spout….or are they just following the party line….


  256. on 1, March 25, 2012 at 7:31 pm Otteray Scribe

    AY, racists and wingers tend to be self-delusional, so they may actually talk themselves into believing the crap they spout.

    Zimmerman’s lawyer was on the teevee machine a little while ago. I did not hear all of what he said, so missed part of his discussion. Apparently he has decided the self-defense claim will not pass the smell test, so is going to rely on the ‘stand your ground’ Florida law.


  257. People could really stop accusing folks of being racists if the shooter was charged, had a chance to be defended, and his wonderfulness could be proven in a court of law. Why don’t we do that? Ask him to come back and turn himself in, hand over the shirt he was wearing that night (not laundered, because he would be preserving the evidence that he was attacked and bloodied) and the medical reports from his grievous injuries, and let his lawyer go ahead and defend him, and we can all stop calling him names, including but not limited to “racist.” Good idear? I like it.


  258. OS, interesting since the man who sponsored the law in Congress stated Zimmerman had no claim under the ‘stand your ground’ law.


  259. I don’t see how Trayvon Martin was entitled to attack and pummel George Zimmerman even if he approached him and asked what he was doing. I’ve been in upscale neighborhoods where I got asked questions like that and I didn’t go apeshit crazy because of it.

    Why are we expected to treat Blacks as if they were wild animals so that it can only be our own fault if they turn violent?


  260. Trayvon Martin was 6’3″. Most of the pictures that have been shown, including the one at the head of this page, are OLD. Travvon Martin was not some little kid.


  261. on 1, March 25, 2012 at 9:24 pm Anonymously Yours

    Hadding Scott,

    Do you really, really believe what you are posting or are you spoofing us….. I hope so, because as I see it based on the immediate facts that I have read….. Even giving your boy the benefit of the doubt that Martin did in fact assault your boy….. Martin had a right to defend himself…. Your boy was told by the dispatcher not to go after him…… So why was your boy going after him after Martin apparently had lost him once…. Take a stab at that…. Next you’ll say Martin had a knife and it was lost….

    OS,
    Sometimes people get lost but the facts remain the same….


  262. on 1, March 25, 2012 at 9:29 pm Anonymously Yours

    Hadding Scott,

    You still pimping for Patrick Buchanan? Sounds like stuff he’d say…..


  263. What Everyone Should Know About Trayvon Martin (1995-2012)

    By Judd Legum on Mar 18, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/18/446768/what-everyone-should-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/

    (an older story, but a good summary, IMO)


  264. When I was that age I used to walk aimlessly in the rain for hours. It is a dreamy age, and now the youth would be wandering aimlessly and texting, talking to friends, listening to music, getting some fresh air.

    The Spanish call it a ‘constitutional’, because they wander after meals. The NRA would like to abolish this human custom completely.

    RIP Trayvon.


  265. This was news to me. Not a surprise, to be sure, but news:

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706876_p2/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy

    “• One of the witnesses who heard the crying said she called a detective repeatedly, but said he was not interested because her account differed from Zimmerman’s.”

    “a 17 year old HONOR STUDENT with his whole life ahead of him is DEAD.” -shano

    Yep. Just walkin’ “home”, looking forward to watching a basketball game with his brother. And in a heartbeat, it’s all over. As you said, shano, “RIP Trayvon.”


  266. How did Zimmerman get a broken nose and a head injury to the back of his head? He should not be tried in the media. Charges should be filed only if there is evidence that it was not self defense – not because a bunch of people are pitching a fit because they think he is guilty.


  267. Staley, people are “pitching a fit” because they agree it should not be tried in the media, and they want it to be tried in a court of law. But with the cops having conveniently put enough time into it so that Zimmerman could blow town and make it to Mexico (or somewhere) for his plastic surgery so by the time charges are drawn he’ll be unidentifiable, there probably never can be a trial of that particular alleged perp in a court of law in the U.S. What there CAN BE, of course, is a trial of several cops and possibly others under 42 USC 1981 and then, of course, a 42 USC 1983 action against the homeowners’ association, the cops, the cover-up artists, the conspirators, and like that. And with that, a 42 USC 1988 action to pay the lawyers who get the settlements in the 1983 action. This will cost the taxpayers of Florida a lot of money. They might want to think about that. Because the “fit” that is being “pitched” is not going to stop. YOU CAN COUNT ON THAT, Staley: IT * IS * NOT * GOING * TO * STOP.


  268. Hey Hadding Scott:

    “Ich sehe nicht, wie Trayvon Martin berechtigt war, anzugreifen und Pummel George Zimmerman, auch wenn er sich ihm näherte und fragte, was er tat. Ich habe im gehobenen Viertel, wo ich Fragen wie diese immer gefragt haben, und ich wollte nicht gehen apeshit verrückt, weil der it.Why gewesen sind wir Blacks zu behandeln, als wären sie wilde Tiere waren, so dass es nur unsere eigene Schuld sein, ist zu erwarten, wenn sie gewalttätig?”

    ************************

    I went ahead and translated you comment. I like it better in the native tongue. BTW, where can you get a good pair of jackboots these days?


  269. Hadding:

    “By the way, there are some more recent photos of Trayvon Martin available now. He’s not so innocent or harmless-looking in the recent images. http://cdn.stripersonline.com/b/bc/300x248px-LL-bc81f9ba_Trayvon_Martin011-300×248.jpeg

    ********************

    Whew, thanks for clearing that up. We all know Trayvon would have to be a perfect child to deserve protection from a gun toting zealot. Tell me what’s the acceptable amount of childhood tomfoolery after which it becomes open season?

    BTW could you and your arm-banded buddies signup as character witnesses for George Zimmerman at the trial. I think you could really aid the cause of justice. Tausend Dank.


  270. There is not a bit of evidence to support the claim that Zimmerman assaulted Martin. Zimmerman says that Martin attacked him from behind, and he had an injury on the back of his head to support the claim.


  271. on 1, March 26, 2012 at 3:52 am Otteray Scribe

    Hadding, you may or may not be right in your claim–you are not privy to the investigative file unless you are one of the investigators, which I doubt. However, we do have evidence that Zimmerman got out of his car, then shot and killed a teenager who was armed only with Skittles and tea. All the apologias in the world will not make that one incontrovertible fact go away.


  272. on 1, March 26, 2012 at 3:56 am Otteray Scribe

    Well, well, well…..

    I did not realize just how spot-on mespo really was. I checked your web site. Damn. Now I have to go take a shower. That was ugly. With friends like you, Zimmerman does not need enemies. Or is he a member of your little organization and you are trying to protect a fellow brownshirt?

    http://national-socialist-worldview.blogspot.com/


  273. It is also interesting that now, a month later, Fox News, which was quite uninterested in the story, has ferreted out a witness (who likes to remain unnamed) who says Trayvon Martin int he hoodie was on TOP of Zimmerman with the red shirt before the fatal shot was fired.

    Yeah. I can show you some Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto who did a little damage to the gestapo’s guys before getting killed, too — oh no, I can’t show them to you, but anyway, I might have been able to, had there been the Internet and FaceBook and international journalists back then. If somebody’s trying to kill you, at least get your licks in before you’re dead, I always say.

    Again, and again and again: Why don’t we just all become witnesses to a trial so we can stop trying to argue fact situations absent the opportunity for due process?

    By the way, I DO think that the “stand your ground law” in Florida was made to be interpreted by courts of law, not by police on the scene before they even had forensic reports to guide them in fact-finding.


  274. Hadding:

    “There is not a bit of evidence to support the claim that Zimmerman assaulted Martin.”

    **********************

    You really should stick to critiquing “Triumph of the Will.” Assault simply means putting another person in reasonable fear for their own safety. No physical contact required. That’s battery, which in this case followed the assault.

    Let me put you innocently (if that’s possible) on a dark street with an armed guy who outweighs you by 80 lbs in hot pursuit, perhaps with his gun drawn, and if your testosterone-fueled philosophy permits you to tell the truth, explain to me how you’re not in reasonable fear for your safety?


  275. on 1, March 26, 2012 at 8:32 am Otteray Scribe

    mespo, some of Zimmerman’s apologists are already arguing how dangerous a container of tea is. You know, you should never bring a gun to a tea fight.


  276. Manny,

    No independent party actually knows how Zimmerman asked the question “What are you doing here”. Depending on tone, manner, volume and non-verbals, that one question can range anywhere to a calm, legitimate and perfectly rational question– all the way to an implied threat of grave bodily damage. Since you were not there at the time Mr. Orlo, you have no basis to claim that the question was totally innocent. That is why Prof Turley points to certain facts in the case being “murky.”

    Going back to the injuries, um, no, blood on the back on the back of the head means exactly nothing. It is not proof that Mr. Zimmerman’s life was in danger, or that he even received a beat-down. Rather miner lacerations of the scalp can and do bleed profusely. This is because the scalp is highly vascurlized with numerous small capillary vessels. In layman’s terms it mean a rather small (less than half inch) cut on the scalp can ooze what looks like a lot of blood. Having no idea where on his scalp Zimmerman was injured (just that he was injured) the bleeding observed after the fact may have only come from one cut or maybe more than one. The major point here is that Zimmerman bleeding is no indication of grievous, serious, or even moderate injury. There is a very good chance that Zimmerman’s injuries were trivial; and the cut on his head not even worth the use of a surgical staple.

    But back to the main point. If Zimmerman had used one jot of common sense, ie remained in his vehicle, he would have never have placed him in a situation where he felt he had to shoot another man. More to the point he had no business confronting Martin in the way he did. He was not an agent of the law, he was not even a security guard. He was a neighborhood watch. And the more “scary” you make Martin, the less sense it makes for a person you admit was short, overweight, and unfit to be confronting a younger, fitter, more athletic man. Thus we are back to my original observation: Zimmerman was reckless and more than a bit stupid.

    While I can not prove it, Zimmerman acted in the reckless and foolish way because he knew he had access to deadly force if things got too bad. There is a good chance that his actions would have been much different if he had only been armed with his cellphone / radio / communications device.

    As much as you would wish to blame the victim here Manny, Zimmerman, in a very real civil torts action, bears at least equal responsibility in the death of Mr. Martin. Zimmerman pursued, Zimmerman confronted, Zimmerman place himself and Martin in a potentially dangerous situation for no really good reason. Zimmerman could have discharged his duties and responsibilities as a watchman without ever as said as much as “boo” to Martin. Instead by a combination of overzealous, piss poor situational awareness, total lack of planning, and no real clue on the proper way to use and escalate force, he managed to kill a man only “armed” with a cell phone, an ice tea, and a bag of skittles. He might not be criminally liable, he might be not guilty of murder, but he sure is culpable in a civil suite.


  277. Some of the “facts” are not facts but specularion. What I think should be evaluated is (a) Was Zimmerman carrying his cell phone while he was out of the car? (b) What was the next phone call Zimmerman made after the one where he said, “Shit, these assholes always get away”? (c) Were there any phone calls from Judge Robert Zimmerman to either the police or any other officials in Sanford in the two or three days after February 26, 2012? (d) Did ANY physical evidence go to the forensic lab? (e) Were photographs taken of the deceased and the shooter that night by the police?

    OK, let’s get some facts here. Otherwise, Zimmerman should be charged and the facts can come out later. These included.

    How hurt Zimmerman was or was not is not the issue. HE CHOSE to leave the scene without going to the hospital, did he not?


  278. It seems like many of the people on here have already been judge and jury and would like to be the executioner of Zimmerman. People, PLEASE wait until all the evidence is available before rushing to judgement. Don’t allow the media to form your opinion for you. You may believe Zimmerman is a racist and is guilty but you cannot know that for sure given the evidence we know. You may also believe that Martin was a wannabe thug that attacked Zimmerman but we don’t know that for sure either. Why is their so much hate towards people who are saying that it is possible that Zimmerman is telling the truth? We are allowing the higher ups to tell us who to hate. This is how the Nazis turned so many people against the Jews. They used the media to give distorted facts to the people and eventually turned many people’s opinion. Don’t allow the media or the term “racism” to make up your mind for you. Zimmerman may be guilty and is so he deserves to be found guilty and given the chair… but he also may be telling the truth and we need to wait until the investigation is over before we try to lynch this man without the benefit of a trail. There is already a $10,000 bounty on his head by the New Black Panther Party. Isn’t that racism and vigilante justice? Isn’t that what people are mad at Zimmerman for? We can’t allow supposed “civil rights” leaders and the media to turn us against each other before we know all the facts. If we do it will only beget more violence and calling people who disagree with you racists will only serving to create more racial tension when that is the last thing we need. I hope cooler, non judgmental heads prevail on this issue.


  279. @ Hadding Scott – Where did u get info that Trayvon Martin was 6’3″? Sanford PD’s initial report says he was 6’0″ and 140 lbs and Zimmerman was 5’9″ but no weight listed.


  280. Trayvon Martin’s height was not relevant that night and is not relevant now. Whether the blood on Zimmerman was his own blood (after he failed to gain the upper hand fighting with a frightened cornered kid) or Martin’s blood (which he conveniently rubbed all over himself before the police arrived so that he could look injured) is not relevant either. Because Zimmerman could have stood his ground IN HIS CAR and did not have to subject himself to the great fear that would prompt him to kill. Remember, HIS WORDS to the dispatcher: “Those assholes always get away.” HE WENT AFTER MARTIN, because he did not want Martin to get AWAY, not because he was frightened. Early reports, by the way, do not mention broken noses or cracked skulls. But if there were such injuries, wow, that kid was really good at self-defense.


  281. We live in a world that is quick to judge and will not, does not wait for all the information to come forth. We talk about the divide but many of us participate in it creating a deeper divide. I think there is a lot not being said here.And when the trial gets going we will all know more, much more. Something I have to ask and I am as liberal as one can get. Why has the family chosen to use pictures of Tayvon that were taken when he was like 12 instead of his current age of 17 and 6′ 2″. And why as it has been reported was Tayvon suspended from school for 5 days? Just asking and wondering and have not come to any conclusions.


  282. None of the negative information about Trayvon Martin is or ever was the least bit relevant here. Zimmerman never knew Trayvon Martin’s name until after he killed him. Zimmerman was — this is important, actually — NOT A COP. He had no right to stop people and question them. So Zimmerman had no reason to be scared of Trayvon (note he did not say “There’s a school drop-out walking around here,” he had no idea what Trayvon Martin’s educational details were, nor did the police when they body bagged him without even taking him to the emergency room to see if perhaps three transfusions and some heroics might have saved him) but Trayvon had plenty of reason to be scared of Zimmerman. ONLY negative information about Zimmerman is relevant, because HE was the one carrying a gun although he had presumably done violence in the past and been arrested for it.

    The reason we are trying Zimmerman in the press is that the people whose responsibility it is to try him in the courts are falling down on the job. Let him come forward and give statements to the press and we’ll all decide what we think. None of us who has been blogging about it can serve on his jury anyway.


  283. “frightened cornered kid”? There’s no evidence that he was frightened or cornered, and he wasn’t any little kid — not in the more recent photos.

    http://mit.zenfs.com/101/2012/03/trayvon-facebook.jpg


  284. New Orleans Police Officer Suspended For Saying Trayvon Martin Was A ‘Thug’ And Deserved To ‘Die Like One’

    The Huffington Post

    by Gene Demby | Posted: 03/26/2012

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/26/new-orleans-police-office_n_1381003.html?ir=Crime&ref=topbar


  285. Hadding Scott, there ARE such things as facts, and that is why Zimmerman’s supporters really do not want to see this whole thing aired in a court of law. Here are a few facts that cannot be talked away by insisting Trayvon Martin was an “adult” (no he wasn’t, by definition) or that the pictures of him are not “accurate.” [Sorry, when you kill someone who has no mug shots because he's never been arrested, you will have to take the shots that his family and decedents provide, boo hoo.] [Don't worry about it; appearances are not everything anyway.]

    FACT: Zimmerman told the police, “Shit, he’s running.”
    FACT: Zimmerman told the police, “These assholes always get away.”
    FACT: Zimmerman declined to give the police his exact whereabouts and advised them, instead, to call him when they got to the location he described.
    FACT: Zimmerman had a cell phone and if he was frightened, could certainly have dialed 911 rather than yelling “HELP HELP”


  286. Would NO be the Police State where even honest law abiding citizens feel safe? Or is that still reserved for the duly elected under the patronage system?


  287. Posted to another thread by Elaine M.:

    What Everyone Needs To Know About The Smear Campaign Against Trayvon Martin (1995-2012)

    By Judd Legum on Mar 26, 2012

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/26/452310/what-everyone-needs-to-know-about-the-smear-campaign-against-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/

    Excerpt:
    Over the last 48 hours, there has been a sustained effort to smear Trayvon Martin, the 17-year old African-American who was shot dead by George Zimmerman a month ago. Martin’s mother, Sybrina Fulton, said, “They killed my son, now they’re trying to kill his reputation.”

    Thus far these attacks have fallen into two categories: false and irrelevant. Much of this leaked information seems intended to play into stereotypes about young African-American males. Here’s what everyone should know:

    1. Prominent conservative websites published fake photos of Martin. Twitchy, a new website run by prominent conservative blogger Michelle Malkin, promoted a photo — purportedly from Martin’s Facebook page — that shows Martin in saggy pants and flipping the bird. The photo, which spread quickly on conservative websites and Twitter, is intended to paint Martin as a thug. As Twitchy later acknowledged, it is not a photo of Trayvon Martin. [Examiner]

    2. The Sanford Police selectively leaked irrelevant, negative information about Martin. The authorities told the Orlando Sentinel this morning that Trayvon was suspended from school for ten days “after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.” There is no evidence that Martin was under the influence of drugs at the time of his death, nor would prior possession of marijuana be a reason for killing him. It’s unclear what the relevance of the leak was, other than to smear Martin. [Orlando Sentinel]

    3. On Fox News, Geraldo said that Martin was dressed “like a wannabe gangster.” Bill O’Reilly agreed with him. The sole evidence is that Martin was wearing a hoodie. Geraldo added that “everyone that ever stuck up a convenience store” was wearing a hoodie. [ThinkProgress; The Blaze]

    4. Without any evidence, prominent right-wing bloggers suggested that Martin was a drug dealer. Right-wing blogger Dan Riehl advances the theory, also advanced in a widely linked peice on a site called Wagist. There does not appear to be any evidence to support this claim whatsoever. [Riehl World View]

    5. Without any evidence, a right-wing columnist alleged that Martin assaulted a bus driver. Unlike Zimmerman, Trayvon has no documented history of violence. This allegation continues to be advanced by a blogger on the Examiner even after the real reason was leaked to the police and confirmed by the family. [Miami Herald; Examiner]

    6. Zimmerman’s friend says Martin was to blame because he was disrespectful to Zimmerman. Zimmerman’s friend Joe Oliver said that Martin would not have been shot to death if Trayvon had just said “I’m staying with my parents.” Of course, Zimmerman was not a police officer, and Trayvon had no duty to tell him who he was or where he was going. [NBC News]


  288. Then he got what he deserved. The damn thief. I wonder if it’s true that Martin was going to stick up Zimmerman before he got shot?


  289. VenganceNow? What’s that — are those two actual words linked together? What’s Vengance, a new dance?


  290. Just think how much money Martin would have cost to incarcerate after those robberies. Then you have the expense of prosecutions. Zimmerman knowing this just did the right thing. Why can’t people just get off of the mans back. When do you think Zimmerman will be honored as citizen of the year?


  291. VenganceNow, just take it easy. The medicine cart will be around any minute now.


  292. If law enforcement is unable to do its job, why can’t law abiding citizens take matters over? We need less government. This is a start, right? What’s the problem, med nurse see you first?


  293. “Zimmerman had a cell phone and if he was frightened, could certainly have dialed 911 rather than yelling “HELP HELP””

    Not when he was being held down and pummeled. The comments here are not getting any less nutty.


  294. on 1, March 27, 2012 at 7:35 am Otteray Scribe

    Hadding, with friends like you, Zimmerman does not need enemies. Or is he one or your Stormfront homies? You are working awfully hard on this.

    Seig Heil, maybe?


  295. Zimmerman doesn’t have to worry about being called a White Supremacist because he ain’t White.

    Ben Jealous, the National President of the NAACP that wants Zimmerman’s head on a silver platter, has less Black in him than George Zimmerman!


  296. Hello, Hello, Hadding Scott: claiming that Zimmerman is black is not relevant; there is actually some evidence that Hitler had Jewish blood. What he “was” does not change what he did or even what he intended to do on Feb. 26, 2012. If he was being pummeled, then gosh, perhaps he shouldn’t have gotten out of his vehicle and tried to apprehend the asshole who was “getting away.” Too bad he was forced to kill somebody because he couldn’t hold his own in a fisticuffs.

    VenganceNow, I JUST NOW GOT your sense of humor. Don’t you take any meds, man, I think you’re the bomb!

    BTW, let’s have Zimmerman’s school records and Juvenile Justice files now. I mean, let’s see what’s really the story in this fight between two equals, neither of whom should be presumed to have committed any crimes the night one of them accidentally died.


  297. I HOPE YOU OT GETTING YOUR INFORMATION FROM THE SAME POLICE THAT REVEAL ZIIMMERMAN HAD A SQUEAKY CLEAN BACKGROUND, THE INCOMPETANT SANFORD POLICE DEPARTMENT /BILL LEE AND BONAPARTE.


  298. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/the-case-for-george-zimmerman-is-the-case-against-him/255090/

    The Case for George Zimmerman Is The Case Against Him

    by Robert Wright

    Mar 27 2012, 10:22 AM ET 6

    The Atlantic’s Andrew Cohen reported yesterday that, in the Trayvon Martin case, George Zimmerman’s side of the story is starting to “get traction.”

    Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the facts of the case are basically as Zimmerman’s defenders claim: Zimmerman killed Martin because Martin was beating him up and Zimmerman felt his life was in danger. Even so, it seems to me that Zimmerman should do jail time for killing Martin.

    Here are some things we know about the case:

    1) A man with a gun pursued an unarmed teenager who had done nothing wrong.

    2) The man with the gun initiated a confrontation with the teenager. I realize that we don’t know exactly how any fight between Zimmerman and Martin started. And we never will, because only Zimmerman knows the details, and he’s not exactly unbiased. But by my lights, if you pursue an innocent, law-abiding citizen, thereby giving him or her reason to believe that you mean them harm–and reason to conclude that their self-defense may require fighting–you have thereby initiated a confrontation. Zimmerman will presumably depict his role in the encounter as passive. That testimony should count for roughly nothing, but in any event I’d say that even if it’s true, he still initiated a confrontation just by pursuing a guy in the dark until he caught up with him. (And he did that even though he knew he was violating the rules of the Neighborhood Watch game and in fact had just been reminded of that by a 911 dispatcher!)

    3) As a result of the confrontation, the man with the gun shot the teenager to death.

    When I see pictures of George Zimmerman I actually feel kind of sorry for him (though not as sorry as I feel for Trayvon Martin), and if his defenders are right about what happened then I should feel even sorrier for him. Still, do we want to live in a society where somebody with a gun can chase down an unarmed, law-abiding citizen, presumably scaring them to death, then kill them after a fight unsurprisingly breaks out–and still get off scot-free? Do you want every wannabe cop in America reading that this sort of thing is legal? Do you think America’s actual cops want to live in a world like that?

    If we don’t want to live in a world like that, then the law shouldn’t let George Zimmermans kill Trayvon Martins. And if Florida law now allows for things like this to happen, and Zimmerman gets off the hook, then after this case is over, the law should change. (end of article)

    Robert Wright – Robert Wright is a senior editor at The Atlantic and the author, most recently, of The Evolution of God, a New York Times bestseller and a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize.


  299. I’d say that George Zimmerman is definitely Blacker than the head of the NAACP that wants to lynch him.


  300. Scott,

    Leave that alone, so what he has acne. You need to focus on what you are paid to do. You must smear any positive reference. Didnt you get that email?


  301. If I were George Zimmerman (which I could be, since I’m fat, relatively unsuccessful, not a cop, not “all white,” and ostensibly not racist), here’s what I would have done immediately after shooting [the asshole who was running and getting away] [Martin, whose name, school status, parental situation, motivations, and/or gang affiliation I did not know as I stood there huffing and puffing after several minutes of homicidal exertion]: I would have smeared his blood all over my face, shirt and back of my head to show that we were in a helluva fight, I would have phoned my daddy to have him call the Sanford cops to let them know he was a judge and I was blameless, and I would have figured out what I was going to say about why I got out of that SUV and ran after the formerly live human being I decided should not escape my rage. I mean, that’s what I woulda done. Maybe he didn’t do that, but that’s what I WOULDA DONE.

    Now, the question arises about what I woulda done a few weeks later when the s**t hit the fan. I woulda run away and had a bunch of friends, relatives and people whom my father, the judge, had “chits” with, call in and create a story for the press to talky talky talky talky until the investigations were over. The story would have made me an innocent victim, of course — I would out-victim EVERYBODY. I would have myself being beaten, nearly to death, and saving myself only by a last-minute shot to free myself from the grasp of this hoodlum who meant to kill me painfully. And then I would have cried for three days. Maybe more! After all, for a guy like me to have to kill a thug who wanted to rob, pillage, beat, torment, torture, and destroy folks who just want to live and let live — that’s just awful! Why do we have to DO THINGS LIKE THIS when all we want is to live in peace?

    So VenganceNow, how’m I doin’?


  302. Looks like the Sanford Police is involved in a coverup! This not the way to investigate a homicide! The crime scene was not protected or the evidence! Regardless of what charges the State Attorney may wish to file! Where are the Crime Lab reports? Where is Internal Affairs?


  303. Yeah, what Old/Rookie said!

    Yeah.

    How ’bout photographs of the crime scene when they arrived (or did they decide, upon arrival, that it was not a “crime scene” because there was no crime?).

    How ’bout blood tests on the blood that was reportedly all over Zimmerman? His? Trayvon’s? Whose?

    How about getting statements from each and every neighbor before letting Zimmerman get his gun back and leave?

    How about a psychiatric evaluation of Zimmerman before he left? Might he not be about to do himself harm because he had just had a bad experience and he might be terribly disturbed? If, as he said, the back of his head had been repeatedly knocked on the sidewalk, how could the police let him go without an exam? How could he drive safely — he might hemorrhage, die, and crash his car into some innocent person just walking around…

    How about ballistics on the weapon?

    How about blood alcohol and a drug screen on the only living person still on the scene who was in the fight, if there was a fight?

    And like that.

    Well, looks like the thing got “short-circuited.”

    Does anybody know what kind of cases Magistrate Robert Zimmerman handled?

    Has anybody checked the affidavits or declarations filed by the girlfriend who got a protective order against Zimmerman?

    Do we know what kinds of things moved Zimmerman to violence?

    After all, to hear his father, his friends and his “spokespersons” tell it, nothing but self-defense would move him to violence but perhaps there’s another side to the story. Perhaps frustration that “These assholes always get away” would move him to violence. Sure need more investigation than the Sanford Police have done…


  304. Anon nurse: You claims we “know for sure” that

    1) A man with a gun pursued an unarmed teenager who had done nothing wrong.

    2) The man with the gun initiated a confrontation with the teenager.

    These are certainly not in the category of “know for sure”

    The dispatcher told Zimmerman that he didn’t need to follow Martin, and Zimmerman replied “Ok”…implying he was going to follow Martin, but assented to the dispatch instruction and did not. Even if he did follow him, I think its fine, but saying he did is not “what we know for sure”

    And naturally, #2 is also not a know for sure thing. According to Zimmerman he was engaged/confronted by martin (from the back) while walking to his vehicle

    So if you are coming from the perspective of Zimmerman’s defense story you probably want to start over with your assertions of “what we know for sure”


  305. Yeah it’s clearly a White Racist Conspiracy like the ones you seen on TV. Cuz even though George Zimmerman looks Blacker than Ben Jealous he’s really a secret White man.


  306. Hadding:

    “Cuz even though George Zimmerman looks Blacker than Ben Jealous he’s really a secret White man.”

    ************************

    Your master race is showing. Latinos may be of any race, but are considered Caucasians if they are Spanish-speakers of European descent. So until we know about his heritage we don’t know what race he is for sure. As if any of that mattered anyway. I guess to some folks, it’s all that matters.

    Translation for white supremacists: Caucasian = white man.


  307. Manny:

    “The dispatcher told Zimmerman that he didn’t need to follow Martin, and Zimmerman replied “Ok”…implying he was going to follow Martin, but assented to the dispatch instruction and did not.”

    ********************

    I guess you forgot the part immediately before that where Zimmerman explicitly says he is following Martin. You may infer that Zimmerman’s reply of “OK” means he’ stopped following but the tape clearly contains wind rustling sounds consistent with running while on the cellphone after he says “Ok.” You also forgot to mention that ol’ watchman George refers to Martin as “that kid.”

    Keep trying you’ll get it right in 5 to 500 tries once your bias subsides.


  308. Manny Orlo,

    Robert Wright is a senior editor at The Atlantic. Any issues that you have may be taken up with him.


  309. Mespo: No, actually the rustling wind stops a few moments after the “ok”. Calling attention to pseudo-facts is not bias. Calling someone bias’d for calling attention to pseudo-facts is biased.

    anon nurse: Robert Wright and hordes of others make the same rookie mistakes when it comes to “here is what we know” pseudo facts.
    You don’t have to know everything, you just have to have the objectivity to know what you don’t know. Anyone who has listened to the tapes and is trying to consider the angle/story of Zimmerman (the apparent premise of the article) who says “Ok” in apparent agreement to stop following Martin and claims Martin attacked him from behind after the fact, can’t just all of a sudden revert mid-flight to the anti-Zimmerman angle that he mindlessly pursued Martin even though he said OK to the dispatch guidance.
    At best he may have take a few steps, prior to saying OK to the dispatch. The “following” never got off the ground…if you are taking the zimmerman side of it in good faith.
    At least play your devil’s advocate with integrity and don’t pass on the drivel of others that don’t. Its just like selling stolen property, you may not have stolen it, but you are just as guilty if you sell it

    Truth is noone “knows for sure” that Zimmerman actually followed him on foot and confronted him, so its baffling why so many declare as if we have video of this.
    The intention to follow and the presumably reversing that intention upon guidance from dispatch is not the same as if he said, No dispatch, i am going to follow him anyway….not to mention we don’t hear that wind rustling anymore moments after he says “ok”.


  310. Manny Orlo,

    Zimmerman should have remained in his vehicle. His role was “to watch” and notify the police if he observed anything suspicious. Nothing more.

    We’ll see how it all plays out.

    Robert Wright’s words again — hardly “drivel”:

    “Still, do we want to live in a society where somebody with a gun can chase down an unarmed, law-abiding citizen, presumably scaring them to death, then kill them after a fight unsurprisingly breaks out–and still get off scot-free? Do you want every wannabe cop in America reading that this sort of thing is legal? Do you think America’s actual cops want to live in a world like that?

    If we don’t want to live in a world like that, then the law shouldn’t let George Zimmermans kill Trayvon Martins. And if Florida law now allows for things like this to happen, and Zimmerman gets off the hook, then after this case is over, the law should change.” -(Robert Wright)

    I agree. As I said, we’ll see how it all plays out.


  311. When Zimmerman was speaking with the police, you can hear him getting squirrely, you can actually HEAR him deciding to “go rogue” and do his own thing rather than waiting for the police to arrive and take care of the situation in accordance with approved police policy. First he is trying to clearly identify for the police the location of the “suspicious” stranger; then, when the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman wants the police to come speak with HIM, he says yes, but then gets really vague about where he will be, and settles on, “have them call me when they get here.” When he made his decision to confront Martin himself cannot be pinpointed, of course, but it seems pretty obvious that he doesn’t want the police to take this one; HE WANTS TO TAKE THIS ONE HIMSELF. After all, if the police came and did their job, the “asshole [might] get away.” He was already running. What is really needed is good neighborhood watch folks ON FOOT and UNARMED just making the streets safe and providing kids with aid and comfort if they get targeted by some armed and dangerous, possibly unstable, son-of-a-judge.


  312. Manny:

    “No, actually the rustling wind stops a few moments after the “ok”. Calling attention to pseudo-facts is not bias. Calling someone bias’d for calling attention to pseudo-facts is biased. ”

    *****************

    Zimmerman says “Ok” in reponse to the Dispatcher’s comment that “we don’t need you to do that” at 2:28. The rustling sounds start at 2:20 and end at 2:42. Last time I looked that would put him running 14 seconds AFTER being told to stand down. That’s not a “few moments.” You could run a hundred yards in 14 seconds though I don’t think George has the wind for that.

    Using made-up facts makes you look biased, brainwashed, or foolish. I’ll pick foolish. And your credibility goes right out the window. As you say “calling attention to psudo-facts (I call them lies with an agenda) is not bias.” Seems you have truble separating pseudo-facts from truth.

    Bye, bye, Manny. I don’t suffer fools gladly. No time for it.

    Here’s the tapes:

    http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained


  313. Mespo:

    “Translation for white supremacists: Caucasian = white man.”

    Well actually, if you can believe the science [it looks pretty compelling] all white man means is someone with ancestors from Africa who evolved white skin because of environmental necessities or genetic mutation.

    We are all Africans at the deepest level of our biology, our genes.

    I wonder when we are going to recognize that pesky fact and quit killing each other and hating on each other?


  314. Bron:

    Good point, Bron.


  315. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 11:01 am Sonofthunder Boanerges

    You nailed Malisha! Except you left out the part where you bashed your face into your Chevy Suburban’s hood to make it look like someone broke your nose. BTW daddy owns the SUV and the condo at 1950 Retreat View Circle. Yes Judge Zimmerman is feared by SPD as he was a Supreme Court Judge in VA. He lives in Lake Mary FL with his Peruvian wife Gladys where George is hiding presently with an armed body guard.

    George beat up a SPD cop during a domestic dispute with his Latina wife and walked away scott-free… fancy that…


  316. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 12:02 pm Sonofthunder Boanerges

    To All: Zimmerman (or Z) was NOT a sanctioned community watch captain for The Retreat at Twin Lakes (RATL) HOA. Don O’Brien (President) demanded that he cease & desist from any watches or patrols ever since the last HOA meeting. Z was mailing and handing out racist flyers depicting Black men as the threat to the RATL community per Ibrahim Rashad a resident at RATL.

    Z was also known for carrying his Kel Tek P-11 semiautomatic pistol (that his dad helped him get a permit for) on watches and many residents where alarmed by this. One resident was thrown out of the last HOA meeting as he got too vocal about this.

    Z is a resident at RATL at #1950 Retreat View Circle but that does not entitle him to do any community watches. On 26 Feb he over step his “GROUNDS” by getting out of his Chevy Suburban and confronting a child who was ALSO a visitor/resident at RATL. So Martin was on his “grounds” too. Z could stand his grounds in his SUV, which he didn’t, and Martin is allowed stand his grounds right where he was killed next to the RATL clubhouse at #1111 Retreat View Circle.

    Z was on a grocery run out the main entrance next to the clubhouse. Martin was returning from 7-11 on West State Rt 46 a mile away. He was returning to his dad’s girlfriend’s townhouse condo on RATL property. Z disobeyed the 911 dispatcher (actually a real SPD police officer filling in) and the President of RATL – NO FOLLOWING ANYBODY GEORGE!

    Two residents next to the incident saw the whole thing. Martin NEVER attacked Z. Z. fell/tripped/whatever and was seen laying on his back in the grass yelling for help by Andre Brown (another resident). Z. pulled his 9mm from his front holster, cocked it, and fired center mass into Martin who was some distance away from Z. He was then seen pacing around the body looking for a weapon.

    He was confronted & challenged by the 2 female witnesses but he told them to go away and call police. Which they did. He was NOT visibly injured in any way at that moment. He must have called his ex-supreme-court-judge dad in Lake Mary for advice and was told to make it look like self-defense by self-inflicted wounds and spreading blood around.

    SPD never collected any evidence like the shell casing(s) nor his bloody shirt. There is a MAJOR cover up here and George and SPD are part of it. The FBI is now on the case and they WILL IMO discover EVERYTHING by 10-Apr the day of the Grand Jury.


  317. SonofThunder, thanks for all that info. I’m sure much of it will be evaluated by the Justice Dept. Let’s hope they function properly. Let’s hope Daddy Judge doesn’t have any reach in THERE — at least he’s a Virginia judge and not a federal judge, but I have seen cases where Virginia judges can call on federal judges to do their — to help them — uh, I mean, to advocate for — well, whatever. Let’s just say sometimes they DO CALL. But if the Justice Department is not going to be an INJUSTICE DEPARTMENT, there will be LOTS of interviews, including with ALL WITNESSES, not just the ones who have chosen to remain nameless.


  318. mespo – Your own words “Zimmerman says “Ok” in reponse to the Dispatcher’s comment that “we don’t need you to do that” at 2:28. The rustling sounds start at 2:20 and end at 2:42. Last time I looked that would put him running 14 seconds AFTER being told to stand down. That’s not a “few moments.”

    Seriously? Don’t you realize he would have to “walk/run back” accounting for roundtrip? He may have started running, then walked back once he agreed to not follow.

    You even said that you doubt he could cover so much distance in so little time as a 250lb 5’2 obese man. 14 seconds (and that’s on the high side) falls into a vernacular of “moments” in good faith when recalling a realtime transpiring of events. 1 second does not equal 1 moment. But all of that is beside the point that the guy ASSENTED to the instruction to not follow him and turned around going back to his original position…the alternative is he broke a land speed record for obese humans which no fair minded juror is going to by

    Even in the recent interview with Joe Oliver, the interviewer plays the 911 tape where dispatch instructs him not to follow and then CUTS OFF the recording before Zimmeran can say “Ok”. What a dastardly media outlet

    Yet people insist he mindlessly followed/tracked down Martin against dispatch instruction and murdered him in cold blood with no motive. You know he mentored/tutored african-american children right? Why would he bother to mentor children of the race if he was just itching to gun a person down of that race in cold blood? Everyone can FORGET a hate crime charge or even a race related motive. That whole race/hate crime thing is just game over, period.

    Calling BS on pseudo facts is not asserting pseudo facts, yet you accuse me of foolishly doing exactly what I called out anon nurse/robert wright for doing. Brilliant…

    I would be embarrassed if I were you. You have done a disservice to yourself and this community reading this site

    Yours and others failure to be fair minded or consider ANYTHING beyond what fits the “lynch zimmerman” mentality is appalling and yet not surprising.

    You just fade away into the ocean of mediocrity. Your baseless insults just add a cloak of childish shame to you.


  319. “Calling BS on pseudo facts is not asserting pseudo facts, yet you accuse me of foolishly doing exactly what I called out anon nurse/robert wright for doing. Brilliant…” -Manny Orlo

    Time will tell, Manny. Time will tell.


  320. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 1:58 pm Sonofthunder Boanerges

    This particular VA supreme court magistrate has LOTS of pull everywhere. He’s also ex-military. There’s a reason he’s so interracial. Was in Peru for something back in the day… That’s where he met Gladys. Got her a SC clerk job and citizenship PDQ. They had George in 1983. The FBI and DoJ are doing a great job of collecting and analyzing this evidence. They are monitoring everything as Eric Holder can’t afford to embarrass Mr. Obama. The autopsy is going to totally ruin George’s defense as it will show that his version was totally bogus and daddy can’t manipulate Eric Holder and Director Mueller.

    Food for thought: How did Martin find & wrestle George’s gun (as he contends) if it was totally concealed as his permit requires?

    BTW he’s allowed to get another gun right away since 26 Feb under his permit. SPD has the Kel Tek P-11 in evidence locker now.

    LOOK OUT BLACK MEN OF SANFORD! GEORGE IS STILL ARMED!


  321. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 2:13 pm Sonofthunder Boanerges

    @Manny – You and Daddy Zimmerman can play this little game of painting George as some pro-Black person with friends and relatives who are Black. It means absolutely NOTHING. George has demonstrated his racist views about Sanford Black men with his racist neighborhood safety flyers, his 46 calls to SPD in Feb about Black youths trespassing (but nothing about the Hispanic and White kids), calls Trayvon Martin an “a$$hole” and a “fu&king coon” in the final 911 call. His old Community Watch buddy said on the news that George is “fed up” and jaded by all the crimes in his community being committed by Black men. However the 8 burglaries sited were NOT all Black men. The 20% Black families at Retreat at Twin Lakes do not like him and think he is a racist gun-nut (which he is). George is 3/4 White and 1/4 Hispanic. This was CLEARLY a hate crime and DoJ will prove it by 10-Apr the date of the GJ hearing.


  322. Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman’s story may not hold up to scrutiny

    by Joy-Ann Reid
    03/28/2012

    http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-george-zimmermans-story-may-not-hold-up-to-scrutiny.php


  323. Manny Orlo:

    “Calling BS on pseudo facts is not asserting pseudo facts, yet you accuse me of foolishly doing exactly what I called out anon nurse/robert wright for doing. Brilliant…”

    *********************

    Your problem Manny — like so many of the mush-minds spouting off around here — is that you can’t keep your own pseudo-facts in order. You first tell us that Martin is 6’3″ when he is actually 6’0″ according to that liberal bastiogen, Fox News. You then explain that the Martin family attorney has the audio recording of the girlfreind’s conversation with Treyvon when he clearly said he had an audio affidavit from her about what happened. You also told me that the wind rustling sounds stopped “moments” after Zimmerman said the enigmatic “Ok.” I proved that was utter bullshit from the tapes themselves and now you claim you meant more than moments.

    Earlier you also claimed that you had pictures of Martin flipping everyone off (it wasn’t him by the way) and that this proved he was really the bad guy and tthen you showed us Zimmerman in suit and tie and explained this made him the good guy –but the bad old media had it the other way around. When most everyone with a brain called bullshit on that little non-sequitur, you then told anon nurse that we don’t know for sure if Zimmerman followed Martin despite Zimmerman’s express statement on the 911 tape that he did follow Martin.

    Manny, my man, you are in over your head with this crowd who reads, comprehends, and won’t suffer fools gladly. I suggest you get with Hadding and start a commune for put-upon-white men. Then you can spout all the meaningless, nonsensical, bullshit you like and you’ll have someone to agree with you.


  324. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 7:00 pm Sonofthunder Boanerges

    @mespo727272 – You’re right.

    Speaking of RIGHT… Michelle Malkin (that left wing media vixen) created that hoaxed photo of Trayvon holding up the one finger salute. The parents may sue for defamation.

    George is 5′ 8″ and was 240 lbs as of 26 Feb (probably fatso is 300 lbs now eating his mom’s Peruvian food in Lake Mary). Per the Seminole County coroner Trayvon was 6′ 0″ and 140 lbs. He had NO narcotics in his blood. Making the Miami-Dade School Board and Right Wing Pundits wrong about Trayvon being on drugs.

    Re: George getting out of his Chevy Suburban and “running” after Trayvon: Didn’t happen. He parked at the main gate next to the club house on his way to the local supermarket. It was raining – that’s what Manny probably heard – not wind. I also think George was eating something – probably gum. He put his flashlight on Trayvon. Tray looked at him like he was some child molester or something. He told his girlfriend and she said run. He said no and walked fast toward George. He put his dark-gray (not black) hoodie to try and intimidate George.

    George tells the dispatcher that “He’s looking toward me”. I think when George got out Tray started running west toward the rear gate – they were at the front gate. Fatso only walked a few feet to see where he went. Tray doubled-back when fatso returned to the SUV. Tray said “What’s your problem?” Fatso said he was the captain of RATL watch (which was a lie as President O’Brien told him to stand down at the last HOA meeting). He said he didn’t have a problem and what was Trayvon doing here. Fatso reached for his cell phone.

    Tray said “Well you have a problem now!” That’s where it gets murky (duh). We don’t know if Tray pushed fatso or he fell on the ground. Austin Brown (not Andre Brown like I mistakenly said before) saw fatso in his red shirt laying on his back in the wet grass screaming for help. I would like to isolated the audio on that someday from a 911 tape. Austin said NOBODY was standing over him or slugging him.

    Austin got distracted by his dog breaking free and didn’t watch the rest of the scenario. He then heard the fatal shot that killed Tray. Others said they think they saw two men wrestling but was so dark they weren’t sure. Two women next to the gate area saw the whole thing, came out with their flashlights confronting fatso (knowing who he was) and said “What did you do!” They saw him pacing around the body looking for a weapon NOT taking vitals as Tray could have still been alive. They never saw any wrestling or any contact between the two. SPD doesn’t believe them.

    Officer Rianamo (sp?) SPD was the 1st responder. He arrived several minutes later leaving fatso many minutes to call poppa and net his face and spread somebody’s blood on the red shirt and the back of his head. EMT’s looked at him and saw he didn’t even need a staple as there was no wound. He refused hospital but claimed he went the next day on the 27th – also a lie. His lawyer refused to show MSNBC any photos of his alleged broken nose. He even walked off the set. His nose is NOT broken.


  325. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 8:08 pm Sonofthunder Boanerges

    @Manny – FYI Joe Oliver is an Black ex-anchor at WESH TV in Florida or gave up his job to defend George as not being a racist. He worked with George at WESH for 6 years. Guess whose paying Joe’s salary as a PR man?

    BTW – George was renting a RATL condo from a Altmonte woman and his dad was paying the rent. His dad paid for his Chevy Suburban too. His dad paid for the two attorneys that helped him with his cop beat down case and his domestic violence case. He’s paying for this lawyer today. Why does he need a lawyer? He’s not in trouble. Right?

    It seems dad is paying Joe Oliver too.


  326. Manny, wind can blow on one side of a building and not on the other. Why don’t we hear his car/truck door slam?

    As Sherlock would say about the barking dog…….


  327. Sonof etc…… Trayvon was on the phone and his girlfriend would have HEARD Zimmerman if he said he was from the neighborhood watch. George said no such thing.

    Are you George Zimmerman? Because what a hell of a lot trouble to create a ‘scenario’ that fits the crime in accordance w/ ‘SYG’ laws….


  328. Sonofthunder,

    “Michelle Malkin (that left wing media vixen)”

    Michelle Malkin is definitely NOT a left winger!


  329. Mespo,
    I told you to stop confusing us with facts. They just get in the way of what the Right wing is lying about.


  330. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 8:57 pm Otteray Scribe

    There is now a video of when the police took Zimmerman in for questioning. Notice the color of his jacket. It is RED! I do not see any blood. If he had broken his nose, there should be blood on his face and shirt front. I know….been there and done that. Frankly, I don’t see any blood or obvious sign of distress.

    They apparently questioned him for a bit then let him go.

    The peripatetic Horace Boothroyd III has the story and video from ABC. I don’t think I can get it to embed here, so will link to Horace’s story, where he was able to get it to work. I find Horace’s observation regarding the police not wearing protective gloves while dealing with Zimmerman quite interesting.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/28/1078689/-Breaking-Police-Survelance-Video-No-Blood-No-bruises-on-Zimmerman


  331. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 9:02 pm Sonofthunder Boanerges

    @shano – You’re probably right. He may not have said that part but it’s logical that he did. Remember the girlfriend lost contact when the phone fell on the ground and disconnected. She tried to call back but probably just went to VM. No I am not George nor am I pro-George. I am one of the largest antagonist on George on Internet under various names and he has NO rights under SYG at all. Even the inventor of it said he can’t use it.

    @Elaine M. – I was using something called “sarcasm” when I was speaking about “left wing media” and Michelle Malkin. I know she’s a Conservative tart. I’m sure Mespo got my tongue-in-cheek humor…


  332. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 9:20 pm Otteray Scribe

    Meant also to add that he seems to be wearing a WHITE t-shirt under his jacket. That stuff about color of clothing now has a large monkey wrench in it.


  333. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 9:24 pm Sonofthunder Boanerges

    @Otteray Scribe – Why is George Zimmerman in cuffs? This video is damning for George. It’s a real ABC News video and it is George. He doesn’t look fat at all. And there is NO BLOOD and no broken nose. His eyes would be blackened if so. The back of his head looks fine. No lacerations, no blood. What’s going on here. Is there a conspiracy going on here?


  334. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 9:30 pm Otteray Scribe

    SB, cuffs are SOP when a person is taken in for questioning. I agree with your observations, and Horace also made the same observation. It is beginning to look rather iffy for Georgie boy.

    Now there is a matter of a certain other George I would also like to see perp walked in cuffs.


  335. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 9:32 pm Sonofthunder Boanerges

    @Otteray Scribe – I guess Austin Brown saw a zipped up red jacket and thought it was a red shirt. Who else said “red shirt”? Understandable mistake though. The cops said the rear of the whatever was wet with grass stains. Didn’t see that in this video. But Austin did see him on his back in the grass and the grass was wet from the rain. It could have dried in the cruiser.


  336. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 9:36 pm Sonofthunder Boanerges

    @Otteray Scribe – What other “George”/ George W. Bush? If so I agree with you.


  337. on 1, March 28, 2012 at 9:40 pm Otteray Scribe

    SB, yes you got the right George.


  338. Mespo

    Manny Orlo:

    “Calling BS on pseudo facts is not asserting pseudo facts, yet you accuse me of foolishly doing exactly what I called out anon nurse/robert wright for doing. Brilliant…”

    *********************

    Mespo: You first tell us that Martin is 6’3″ when he is actually 6’0″ according to that liberal bastiogen, Fox News.

    Huh? Go measure him in the morgue. News outlets reported 6’3, Police eyeballed him at 6’0 in the police report at 160lb.

    Mespo: You also told me that the wind rustling sounds stopped “moments” after Zimmerman said the enigmatic “Ok.” I proved that was utter bullshit from the tapes themselves and now you claim you meant more than moments.

    I hate to have to link the definition of a “moment” to you, but here it is “mush mind”. it’s 1.5 minutes. I was actually being generous
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_%28time%29

    Mespo: Earlier you also claimed that you had pictures of Martin flipping everyone off (it wasn’t him by the way) and that this proved he was really the bad guy

    This is your total BS. I merely provided the picture, I drew no conclusion that “this proves he was the bad guy”. That was your own projection

    Mespo: and tthen you showed us Zimmerman in suit and tie and explained this made him the good guy –but the bad old media had it the other way around.

    This is your total BS(again). I merely provided the picture, I drew no conclusion that “this proves he is the good guy”. That was your own projection

    Mespo: When most everyone with a brain called bullshit on that little non-sequitur, you then told anon nurse that we don’t know for sure if Zimmerman followed Martin despite Zimmerman’s express statement on the 911 tape that he did follow Martin.

    At best, he started to follow and then reversed course. That “express statement” merely shows he began to, but his “ok” to dispatch indicates he stopped. The wind stopping “less than moments” later supports it. If you can’t understand that you never will

    Mespo: Meaningless haughty biased drivel about blah blah…

    Sigh…


  339. Manny Orlo:

    Stop sighing Manny. You got your wish! Now we know from the police tape released today that ol’ Georgie Porgy had no blood on his head and face, wasn’t beaten, and is a complete and utter liar. Well … quite a lot like you.

    Thanks, Manny for showing us just how far the right-wing is willing to go to frame a 17 -year-old African-American kid for his own murder. George had better be thinking plea bargain and solitary confinement. You’d better be thinking how to extricate yourself from your web of lies. I’ll be thinking what I always think about those who have no sense of justice whatsoever. Nothing.

    How do you clowns sleep at night?

    http://cdnapi.kaltura.com/index.php/kwidget/wid/0_m7are5h3/uiconf_id/6501241


  340. It figures that they are now trying to frame the Richetious George Zimmerman with a crime. You liberals always look for the easy one to blame. You should be so lucky to have a neighborhood watch person like George.


  341. VenganceNow:

    ” You should be so lucky to have a neighborhood watch person like George.”

    ********************

    Well, Trayvon certainly was lucky. I hope all bigots get one like ol’ Lying (on his back) George.


  342. Son of a Virginia judge, corrupt cops, and a paranoid wing nut criminal being defended by paranoid wing nuts.


  343. When I broke my nose, my shirt was covered in blood.


  344. Mespo,
    Zimmerman is a murderer, plain and simple. How low has the Right wing sank that they will lie for a killer?


  345. Ya’know, I was just thinking of how if I went to Florida, there’s be so many people I might be scared of. I just might have to stand my ground on some of them, unless the a**holes got away. For instance, I probably would be scared of Robert Zimmerman because I generally find Virginia judges scary; they’re quite a bunch. And then again I might be scared of neighborhood watch folks, you know, they can shoot you and cry for three days just as soon as sell a used car. And I might be scared of people who get broken noses that look good in photographs — they’re really scary. The list goes on and on…


  346. Regarding the abc news video

    Here is a closeup showing the gash on Zimmermans head with stitches
    http://s8.postimage.org/3ruc5rjed/georgezimermanhead.jpg

    That alone is enough to warrant self-defense…thats a NASTY gash

    Try to keep these things in mind:
    This video was not necessarily taken immediately following the fight. Zimmerman would have been treated by paramedics/emt following their arrival and it is their job to clean and treat injured folks. The ride down to the PD would have been the absolute last thing to happen on the night that all this happened

    HIs clothes would have been taken into evidence long before this as part of handling the crime scene. It would have been no issue to get a police escort over to his house to change his clothes before leaving. Anyone would want to change after these shenanigans and if the cops wanted the clothes, its a two fer

    The nose could certainly be broken. If it was a minor facture, (yet still a fracture) the nose would have stopped bleeding. There is a wide range of broken noses…just like for any limb. You may have seen a a leg literally taco’d from a car accident, you may also recall breaking your leg as a child and the leg doesn’t “Look broken” from the outside with just minor swelling depending on how it is broken

    Bottom line: This video does nothing for or against Zimmerman.

    If we had the treating EMT’s testimony, that would mean something in the “for sure” camp.

    This is just a red herring


  347. Hey there’s no problem getting the EMT’s testimony — ‘slong as there’s an arrest, charges, due process, a trial. Surely there are records. Hey, all the evidence SHOULD have been kept, including the blood-soaked bandages used at the scene! No problem at all just so long as everybody did their jobs by the book and followed procedures. Yep. No prob at all!

    Let’s just hold off on all our conclusions until the facts all come out. I understand DOJ is getting more and more facts every day. I can wait. Trayvon Martin won’t be any more dead the day the facts are all in than he is now; Zimmerman may have “disappeared” by then, of course…

    Hey, anybody know how HE is reacting to all these scurrilous speculations about him? First-hand? Why doesn’t he present himself to the DOJ and let them interview him and have him examined by some really good doctors!


  348. Zimmerman should do the honorable thing. But he has no honor, cannot even show sympathy with the Martin family, because there is something terribly wrong with any man who will provoke a confrontation so he can kill in cold blood.


  349. shano – Hardly…did you see the brilliant move Spike Lee made in re-tweeting the incorrect address of Zimmerman…but he got it wrong and now an elderly couple literally had to flee for their lives. They are planning to sue him if not bring charges

    There are too many people (including the New Black Panthers militant) group who just want to take Zimmerman’s life in an act of cold blooded vengeance that they call “justice”, but that is not American justice

    Attacking Zimmerman’s honor or specualting about his sympathy level just doesn’t make sense when there is a lynch mob at the gate


  350. Manny Orlo is making up stories full-time to help the police and prosecutor down there come up with new stuff to fit into the evidence that keeps emerging, but hey, that’s what friends are for.

    Here’s more of what “could have happened,” in case more evidence comes up.

    1. Zimmerman COULD HAVE gone home, changed, showered, has some flesh-tone bandaids applied, had some make-up applied, and gotten ready for the police videos so his fans would see him looking good even after the terrible beating;

    2. Zimmerman COULD HAVE broken a glass in a sink in a hotel;

    3. Zimmerman COULD HAVE had a whole change of clothing so he wouldn’t look scary enough to make Trayvon Martin stand his ground;

    4. Zimmerman’s dad COULD HAVE had a “fight choreographer” from a top Hollywood film come and position the body on the ground to…

    HEY, wait a minute, this is getting to be interesting after all…

    Catch you later, Manny, right now I’m gonna write some scenes!


  351. THE LATEST: Father-Judge Zimmerman can now narrate a whole conversation between Martin and his son, AND he says that Martin’s girlfriend, who already DID narrate a conversation between the two, is a liar. Wow!

    FIrst, Judge Zimmerman was saying his son was beaten; now he says he was threatened with death. Maybe a tape will surface destroying that story and then Judge Zimmerman will say that Martin had some aliens from a flying saucer beam down threats all over sonny-boy while he was cooking his wife her dinner. [Hey, what did he cook? Surely he remembers!]

    Wow, Judge Zimmerman’s memory is getting better by the day! Every time new evidence comes out, Judge’s story gets more carefully designed to incorporate the facts. He has GOOD PRACTICE in that from his years on the Bench.

    Judge Zimmerman previously said he was going to stop speaking about the case, after writing a carefully crafted self-serving letter fictionalizing the event. He closed that letter by saying he was not going to do any more public speaking about it, and asking for privacy for his family. NOW that there is evidence that all the hearsay allegations are in serious doubt, he speaks out “for the first time” — huh? Is that Judge-speak for, “I get to lie and have automatic credibility because I’m a judge”? Or what? Oh, and here: Sorry for all the hate. Really? Why don’t we all just LOVE instead of HATING, Your Honor? By the way, Zimmerman is NOT prevented from seeing a doctor, not at all. There are doctors who will not only examine you and treat you without payment, there are doctors who will go to your house (or apartment or hide-out) and examine you and treat you THERE, too. In fact, I will bet that a simple call for a volunteer doctor from the military or from the Public Health Service would result in immediate treatment for George Zimmerman. In addition, I can see in Zimmerman-daddy’s recent protestations that he is preparing his son’s defense, in case his hiding out gets busted and he ends up in custody for something: he’s now going to say the young son is not competent to stand trial. Oh yes, I can see it coming.

    I would like somebody to pull ALL OF JUDGE ZIMMERMAN’S CASES and let’s see what has happened to people coming before him in HIS CAREER. Sunshine government!


  352. I would like some research on self defense cases in Florida and see how many cases that a death was the end result and the person that did the killing right or wrong does not or did not get a arrested on the scene at the time, some research and some statistics .


  353. He did not hemorrhage or sustaine a injury violent enough to call for stitches , so Martain was not a punk and tried to define for his life and now that going to be the murder defense . I would like to see how Sanford handle other self defense case of a similar nature at least ten self defense recent cases where the defendant regardless of the charges did not get arrested on the scene in Sanford florida. I would like to see the police log for the whole year and see how anY cases the State Attorney came in on a Sunday and review before the Sanford police charge the killer .


  354. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-case-polic_n_1384301.html?ncid=wsc-huffpost-cards-headline

    “Chris Serino, the lead detective on the case, expressed doubts around Zimmerman’s account of the shooting, according to ABC News. Serino filed an affidavit on the night of the shooting in which he said that he was unconvinced of Zimmerman’s version of events.

    Serino told MSNBC Tuesday night that he was not at liberty to discuss the case, but he feels very encouraged by the new investigation into the shooting, and he was “looking forward to the truth coming out.””


  355. Op-Ed Contributor
    The Gated Community Mentality

    by RICH BENJAMIN
    March 29, 2012

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/opinion/the-gated-community-mentality.html?_r=1

    AS a black man who has been mugged at gunpoint by a black teenager late at night, I am not naïve: I know firsthand the awkward conundrums surrounding race, fear and crime. Trayvon Martin’s killing at the hands of George Zimmerman baffles this nation. While the youth’s supporters declare in solidarity “We are all Trayvon,” the question is raised, to what extent is the United States also all George Zimmerman?

    Under assault, I didn’t dream of harming my teenage assailant, let alone taking his life.

    Mr. Zimmerman reacted very differently, taking out his handgun and shooting the youth in cold blood.

    What gives?

    Welcome to gate-minded America.

    From 2007 to 2009, I traveled 27,000 miles, living in predominantly white gated communities across this country to research a book. I threw myself into these communities with gusto — no Howard Johnson or Motel 6 for me. I borrowed or rented residents’ homes. From the red-rock canyons of southern Utah to the Waffle-House-pocked exurbs of north Georgia, I lived in gated communities as a black man, with a youthful style and face, to interview and observe residents.

    The perverse, pervasive real-estate speak I heard in these communities champions a bunker mentality. Residents often expressed a fear of crime that was exaggerated beyond the actual criminal threat, as documented by their police department’s statistics. Since you can say “gated community” only so many times, developers hatched an array of Orwellian euphemisms to appease residents’ anxieties: “master-planned community,” “landscaped resort community,” “secluded intimate neighborhood.”

    No matter the label, the product is the same: self-contained, conservative and overzealous in its demands for “safety.” Gated communities churn a vicious cycle by attracting like-minded residents who seek shelter from outsiders and whose physical seclusion then worsens paranoid groupthink against outsiders. These bunker communities remind me of those Matryoshka wooden dolls. A similar-object-within-a-similar-object serves as shelter; from community to subdivision to house, each unit relies on staggered forms of security and comfort, including town authorities, zoning practices, private security systems and personal firearms.

    Residents’ palpable satisfaction with their communities’ virtue and their evident readiness to trumpet alarm at any given “threat” create a peculiar atmosphere — an unholy alliance of smugness and insecurity. In this us-versus-them mental landscape, them refers to new immigrants, blacks, young people, renters, non-property-owners and people perceived to be poor.

    Mr. Zimmerman’s gated community, a 260-unit housing complex, sits in a racially mixed suburb of Orlando, Fla. Mr. Martin’s “suspicious” profile amounted to more than his black skin. He was profiled as young, loitering, non-property-owning and poor. Based on their actions, police officers clearly assumed Mr. Zimmerman was the private property owner and Mr. Martin the dangerous interloper. After all, why did the police treat Mr. Martin like a criminal, instead of Mr. Zimmerman, his assailant? Why was the black corpse tested for drugs and alcohol, but the living perpetrator wasn’t?

    Across the United States, more than 10 million housing units are in gated communities, where access is “secured with walls or fences,” according to 2009 Census Bureau data. Roughly 10 percent of the occupied homes in this country are in gated communities, though that figure is misleadingly low because it doesn’t include temporarily vacant homes or second homes. Between 2001 and 2009, the United States saw a 53 percent growth in occupied housing units nestled in gated communities.

    Another related trend contributed to this shooting: our increasingly privatized criminal justice system. The United States is becoming even more enamored with private ownership and decision making around policing, prisons and probation. Private companies champion private “security” services, alongside the private building and managing of prisons.

    “Stand Your Ground” or “Shoot First” laws like Florida’s expand the so-called castle doctrine, which permits the use of deadly force for self-defense in one’s home, as long as the homeowner can prove deadly force was reasonable. Thirty-two states now permit expanded rights to self-defense.

    In essence, laws nationwide sanction reckless vigilantism in the form of self-defense claims. A bunker mentality is codified by law.

    Those reducing this tragedy to racism miss a more accurate and painful picture. Why is a child dead? The rise of “secure,” gated communities, private cops, private roads, private parks, private schools, private playgrounds — private, private, private —exacerbates biased treatment against the young, the colored and the presumably poor.

    Rich Benjamin is the author of “Searching for Whitopia: An Improbable Journey to the Heart of White America” and a senior fellow at Demos, a nonpartisan research center.


  356. Thank you for posting this fascinating article by Rich Benjamin.

    I am very concerned about the issue of how much Judge Robert Zimmerman and Robert Zimmerman Jr. are coming off as authorities on the issue of what took place on a night when they were not present. It seems like a way to get George Zimmerman to “pretestify” without giving up his right to remain silent.


  357. The Police Surveillance Video of Zimmerman’s arrival at the stationhouse on the evening of February 26, 2012:

    1. Notice that the cop who is speaking with him beside the squad car he has just emerged from opens the trunk of the squad car and inserts something that looks like a package of some sort wrapped in a dark colored garment, perhaps jacket. I found that a bit unusual. What was in that package that went into the trunk of the squad car before the suspect was even interviewed?

    2. Notice that Zimmerman gets out of the back of the squad car without anybody’s hand protecting his head. The usual way that a suspect exits or enters the back of a squad car is with a cop’s hand coming between head and door frame.

    3. Notice that the cop who then feels around in Zimmerman’s pockets is not really frisking him, but checking something. Had he been frisking him, he would have had to do more and different actions than he did; this looks more like Zimmerman asked the cop to check for something and the cop checked for it BEFORE THEY ENTERED THE STATION HOUSE, as if perhaps there was something Zimmerman thought of that might be ON HIM and that the cop might want to get OFF HIM and put in the trunk of the squad car BEFORE THEY ENTERED THE STATION HOUSE so that, in the event of an actual arrest, the item would not actually make it into the property room or the evidence room.

    I believe these events carefully analyzed might lead someone to want to investigate whether or not that particular cop was doing any witness tampering or evidence tampering on the night Trayvon Martin accidentally died.


  358. Malisha,

    There are some unholy alliances between certain cops and some of those who are involved in “community policing.” Someone needs to take a good hard look…


  359. Anon Nurse,

    Exactly right. Furthermore, think of this a couple of other ways:

    1. Had Zimmerman been a cop.

    Obviously, had Zimmerman been a cop, either patrolling or even OFF DUTY, the department would have had to follow the procedures for an officer who discharges his weapon, regardless of his reasons given at the time or on the day. So (a) his gun would have been taken immediately and NOT RETURNED until the end of the investigation; and (b) the entire investigation would have to follow the standardized procedures set down by the Department, with no officers of his same rank having ANY DISCRETION about what they thought were the facts; and (c) the inquiry into what happened could NOT have been done by other cops the same day as the event itself occurred. So, had Zimmerman actually BEEN a cop, rather than an unofficial self-proclaimed armed officer of law and order in the neighborhood, he would have been subjected to MORE, not LESS, scrutiny after having killed someone.

    2. Had the police been properly dealing with the obviously-growing problem of Zimmerman’s repeated pestiferous calls to the police and his creepy, inappropriate call that night.

    OK, we’re talking a county that is not, say, Cook County Illinois and a town that is not, say, Chicago. We’re talking Seminole County, FL and a town with a population of 50,600 and a police department with 140 sworn officers. Obviously, a guy who has made 46 call-ins to the police in the last year is known to the department. There’s no officer who is not aware of this guy, even if slightly and peripherally. Two things on Zimmerman’s recorded and broadcast (there may well have been others of which we are unaware at this point in time) call on the evening of 2/26/2012 really stand out: “These assholes always get away” and “shit, he’s running.” [Frankly I can't remember if Zimmerman said Martin was "running" or "leaving" or a word meaning "traveling away from sight rather than closer to me."] Obviously, Zimmerman had experienced some frustration that in all those calls he made to the police, he had never convinced the police to actually DO SOMETHING TO SOMEBODY after being notified by Zimmerman that he expected them to act on his complaints. His frustration was clear as he spoke with the police before accosting, confronting, questioning, following, or/and killing Martin. I wonder if there might have been a different result had the police shown up at Martin’s house maybe ten calls back, discussed with him the necessity for leaving law enforcement actions to the officials who were trained and authorized to do it, and offered him perhaps a brush-up course on the anger management course he had been required to take when he assaulted an officer in 2005 and got a “diversion program” rather than a prosecution. Reportedly, neighbors were afraid of him (Ibrahim Rashada) and the Neighborhood Watch association itself was concerned about him carrying a loaded gun on his “watch” patrol.

    3. Had the county dealt properly with the domestic violence aspect of the George Zimmerman (as opposed to the Trayvon Martin) case.

    Zimmerman, charged with domestic violence (and amazingly, we’re not hearing anything about WHAT ACTUAL FACTS WERE INVOLVED IN THAT CASE!) by his girlfriend, responded by filing his OWN dv petition against her. Oldest trick in the book: “She hit me first.” So some judge figured, “OK, restrain HIM and restrain HER, it takes two to tango.” Well, no it doesn’t. It does NOT. Sometimes, two do in fact tango. Sometimes, on the other hand, a person commits an assault on another person, and that other person, being assaulted, defends. In fact, whether the violence is “co-equal and co-ordinate” or “aggressor defense” is a very important point and should not be ignored when it is capable of determination. So what happens in many cases is that the aggressor (usually the male, according to all valid studies) who is often the party who has set himself up as the “authority in the relationship,” is the one who feels that he has permission to “discipline” or to question, interrogate, control, admonish, and correct the other. Since the law has recently begun to superimpose ITS PUNISHMENT upon punishers who are deemed to have punished too much (as in physically), their own assessment of their right to play cop within the family has not automatically carried the day and they may face restraining orders or other legal problems. So what is the response? Of course, the “she did it first” or “she always beats me boo hoo” or the “she is naturally violent and I am scared of her” or…you get the picture. Zimmerman’s prior assault was probably good training for him killing Trayvon Martin. He was the authority; HE had the right to discipline Martin; HE used force the way he believed he should or could. Then when there was an “uh oh” he said, “He attacked me first.” I WANT TO SEE THAT DV FILE; I WANT TO HEAR FROM THAT WOMAN WHO REPORTEDLY BEAT UP ZIMMERMAN BEFORE HE HAD TO KILL MARTIN.

    That’s all for now.


  360. Here ye, here ye. Zimmerman is not, was not ever a cop. He wanted to be one. You do not live in an area where criminals take everything from you, so you will never understand. He is being tried in the media and this blog.


  361. Hi Malisha – Nice sarcastic anti-Zimmerman tirade. We definitiley don’t have enough of those on the internet yet.
    Could you comment on the close up photo of the two wounds on Zimmerman’s head? I am sure you have something brilliant to discount those as well

    Thanks
    Manny


  362. Manny, the “close up photo of the two wounds” on Zimmerman’s head is the same as the unicorn, my friend. If you think it is there, that is fine with me. I have not seen a “photo” but a video. If someone took a still from the video and turned that still (probably a frame from the video, but who knows, I’m not opining on any technical photographic or cinematographic things) into a picture that you think looks like “two wounds,” you are free to think it is there. To me, the presence or absence of wounds on Zimmerman would be quite irrelevant, as I have mentioned previously on this comment trail; TRAYVON MARTIN HAD A RIGHT UNDER FLORIDA LAW TO DEFEND HIMSELF WITH ALL HIS MIGHT, AND EVEN WITH LETHAL FORCE, so even if there had been two wounds on Zimmerman’s head that wouldn’t change my view of the question of whether or not he should have been charged with a crime that night or whether he should be now or on April 10. My point is simply this: The police video shows what most rational people believe is a man who has not been wounded or badly beaten. Given that, and even though it is not relevant to the question of intent or probable cause for arrest and criminal charges, it does look like somebody has been putting out lies about what happened that night. Now it should be obvious that Zimmerman had incentive to lie. He had just killed somebody. He had every incentive to say that he killed in self-defense. But he had a right to remain silent and say nothing. And he had a right to be treated for injuries before being interviewed at all. That’s not what people were getting at when they responded to the revelation of the police video. They were responding to the overly dramatized boo-hoo squallings and screamings of an inflamed pro-killer public defending Zimmerman’s right to NOT STAND TRIAL. We are not talking about his right to a defense. Obviously he had a right to a defense; Adolph EIchmann had a right to a defense. But his story — broken nose and all — that just seems like a pretty lame, blatant, in fact pretty stupid lie, that anybody who supports Trayvon Martin’s right to the full operation of the law to bring justice to his killer is entitled to comment upon after seeing that video. Maybe Zimmerman will someday come forward with medical records proving that he had huge gashes on the back of his poor little heady-weady; maybe he will come forward with medical records proving he got his nosey-wosey all bwoke by the bad suspicious hoodie-wearing tea-drinker; maybe he will prove all the points you are so passionate about. BUT probably, there will then be a cross examination of a doctor or two — and that is what the rest of us call justice, NOT just “Manny Orlo said so and therefore we all have to say huzzah huzzah it must be true.”

    Grow up. We’re not saying trial in the press is better than trial in the courthouse. We’re saying Zimmerman should NOT be tried in the press; he should be tried in the courthouse. We’re saying that he has a right to choose his own defense counsel if he can afford to do that; maybe someone — maybe a great constitutional scholar — will defend him and he will be aquitted. Maybe all his wounds will impress a jury who will say that beaten as badly as he was, he just plain HAD TO SHOOT MARTIN and maybe the jury will think that his putting himself into Trayvon Martin’s face was NOT stalking or assault. But that would mean that your assessment of his grievous wounds and my scoffing at that are both unimportant and let the system do its wonderful work.

    Defend him; defend his action; don’t defend his right to stay OUT of the system that our country has put into place to deal with situations where one man kills another and then there is a fact situation that must be carefully examined with rules and regulations about how the examination takes place, so that self-proclaimed commentators like Manny Orlo and Malisha go back and forth forever in ever widening concentric circles of bull***t.


  363. Hey VengenceNow, you really sound resentful and angry — even bitter — about living somewhere where, as you say, everything has been taken from you. First of all, you don’t really know where I live and you don’t really know what has been taken from me. I’m not going to go into a recitation of that on this thread, either. But you’re just assuming things. What I’m hearing is that you find some real value and validity in the idea that Zimmerman was entitled to feel abused by Martin (and/or people like Martin) and that on the night of February 26, 2012, you think he acted from feelings of being deprived, being “taken from,” and being “done to.” I would agree with you I would actually go ahead and presume that Zimmerman, who had a very strict childhood where daddy was a judge and mommy was clearly a subordinate to the judge, had lingering feelings of inadequacy, rage, low self-esteem, etc. etc. blah blah blah. I think Zimmerman’s history of a drunken asssault on some law enforcement officer trying to do his job, of domestic violence, of relatively unsuccessful and certainly financially unremunerative work in not very glorious gigs, and so forth, could lead to a certain kind of dissatisfaction with life in general and with the lack of power in specific. I think it quite possible that Zimmerman was trolling around that night thinking of how powerless he really was, and getting madder and madder. Although he lived in a nice place, that was not because he made a lot of money and he knew it; although he had a nice car, it reportedly belonged to Daddy. Although he had called the police enough for them to acknowledge how terribly important he was, they were NOT acknowledging that. And here was this guy, looking suspicious to him, an “asshole” who was going to “get away.” I think George was “fed up” with the idea that somebody was going to “get away” when he, George, believed the guy merited punishment. “Shit, he’s running,” he says. He’s mad and there’s nobody to take it out on. But then…

    So, VengenceNow, I really understand how someone who feels that he has nothing, that he should have more respect and more power than he has been given, can get plenty mad about that. That’s what I think Zimmerman did. And it turned out badly. And his not being a cop was an additional insult added to the injury of his always wanting to be the hero in the big movie…now, ironically, he is the hero in a big movie being written in the minds of a vocal, angry, resentful, hateful, dissatisfied bunch of Americans who think that public calls for Zimmerman’s arrest and trial by a jury of his peers with all the defenses available at law is too much to ask…


  364. Oh, and Mr. Orlo: It’s kinda cute that you call my comment an “anti-Zimmerman tirade.” Anti-Zimmerman will probably make it onto the list of coined phrases now! I do like to write a good tirade now and then, and it’s especially fun on the TurleyBlog. BUT if I were in a court of law, called in as a witness, I would have to say: “I was not there that night.” Since I am not a forensic psychiatrist, I would have to say, “I have no idea what was in Zimmerman’s mind that night.” Since I am not a ballistics expert, I would have to say, “I don’t have the knowledge to talk about the forensic analysis of the mortal wound on Martin that night.” Etc. etc. So my being anti-Zimmerman is OK; I’m not going to serve on his jury. I will, of course, stand up for my right to keep up the Zimmerman bashing because I believe he’s done the following things, none of which I can possibly condone:

    1. I think he’s been guilty of the physical abuse of women who were probably smaller and weaker than him;

    2. I think he’s been guilty of trying to stir up his neighborhood into a racially charged condition that was very bad for all residents and guests;

    3. I think he’s been arrogant and cowardly, a bad combination;

    4. I think he’s blamed others for his problems, probably all his life;

    5. I think he’s shot and killed a young man who never did him a bit of harm;

    6. I think he decided, while on the phone with the cops on 2/26/2012, that he was NOT going to let them handle it their way, that he was, instead, going to make his own citizen’s arrest and automatically become a kind of unofficial, but beloved, “cops’-best-friend” in Sanford, Florida.

    7. I think it went all wrong, he got scared, and blew Trayvon Martin away.

    8. I think he has made a muck-up of his whole family’s life because now they have to control the situation for him and it wouldn’t be easy under any circumstances, but now, with all the press, it won’t even be possible.

    9. I only feel sorry for him because I don’t believe that he sees the error of his own ways and he’s still sitting somewhere (probably Mexico by now) weeping big crocodile tears and convincing himself what a victim he is.

    Like this anti-Zimmerman tirade?


  365. Zimmerman did not have any life threaten wounds , If he did he would have went to the ER Trayvon Martin lost his life and we need a microscope to see GZ wounds. . the E M T irrigated his wound /disinfected his wound / we would have seen steri strip inhs head ,he willing brought a gun with him / he prepared for the altercation to get out of hand .


  366. [...] The Zimmerman Tapes: 911 Recordings Released From Shooting Of Teen In Florida By “Watchman” « J…. Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. Published: 2012/04/01 [...]


  367. Malisha:

    75% of everyone in this Country and likely millions more around the globe want Zimmerman to stand trial. The rest … well they’re like Vengance and Manny. They are immune to logic. They are shills for an ideology and very little penetrates their bubble. The truth came out when I asked one of them … don’t recall which … if new evidence could change their mind. No reply was the reply. That should tell you all you need to know about Manny and his straight-man Vegance. Save your keystrokes.


  368. Mespo, thanks, and of course I agree with you about everything except me saving my keystrokes. Since you ask, let me answer: I write these things NOT for Manny or for VenganceNow, but for myself, and I quite enjoy the activity, so I’m not the least bit irritated or put out by the fact that there will be no change in either of them. (Actually, that may not be entirely true of VenganceNow but who knows?) I am writing this for several other reasons as well: (1) so my son and a few others can enjoy it; (2) so some points that might not get made on 100 other webpages can at least get written down; (3) so some theories that will be brought up in the future to defend Zimmerman can be pre-punctured, in case anybody needs that; and (4) to exercise my First Amendment rights. Especially that.

    I very much appreciate your writing on this blog.

    Respectfully,


  369. Malisha:

    “I very much appreciate your writing on this blog.”

    ************************

    Consider that reciprocated.

    You’re right, of course. Writers write like dancers dance — mostly for themselves and their significant others.


  370. Mespo,

    If you have a questionnaire you would like me to answer shoot it at me. Other than that, what is your interest in continual defense of Mr. Martin. How do you know things are not ad they appear? Ever had a matter that didn’t work out the way you started with it? In the mean time, Zimmerman is entitled to the presumption of innocence. Or has that right already been dispensed with?


  371. I’m playing catch up on this thread, but I’d like to second mespo’s appreciation of Malisha’s posts. Good job.


  372. Hi Malisha

    I was referring to the link to the frame taken from the video I posted above. You did notice that in the video at 53 sec the cop is looking at the wounds on Zimmermans head?

    However, from what you wrote, it sounds like you don’t care about Zimmerman’s two wounds on his head because Martin was “right” to attack Zimmerman for 1) watching him, 2) asking him “what you are doing here”, and 3) possibly following him. I however disagree, that any of those activities warrants another person slamming a head into the ground hard enough to cause head wounds.

    Neither Zimmerman or Martin had a legal right to physically strike anyone until there was a first strike. Even if Zimmerman attempted to put Martin under citizens arrest like a big ole cop best friend as you put, you do realize that does not give Martin the right to strike him right? You get that? You seem to indicate that Martin was totally fine to strike Zimmerman just for following him or attempting to citizen arrest him

    Regarding your “I think” #5…You really think Martin did not do a bit of harm to Zimmerman? You do not accept the multiple eyewitness testimonies that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him? They are all liars? Even in light of the photo frame from the police video?

    That’s really what this case comes down to…first strike.

    Tell me, if you somehow came to a realization that Martin did strike Zimmerman first in response to a perfectly legal action like watching/following/citizen arresting him and then also got on top of Zimmerman and starting beating his head into the ground causing those two wounds….would you still condemn Zimmerman for shooting Martin as a last resort?

    Thanks
    Manny


  373. Its amazing to me how so many people think…well if X% of people sign a petition that Y person should stand trial, then it should be done. What a terrible country that would be. It’s akin to might makes right

    Its also scary how people think that arrest and trial is how we do investigations. As if arrest/trial that should apply in every case where there is controversy….”just so we can all be sure a person is innocent” if enough people think they aren’t.

    I don’t know if people really get what a slippery slope that is.
    It reminds me of the whole patriot act/homeland security thing where they tell you, give up your rights so we can protect you. Give up your privacy so that we can catch the terrorists. It sounds good in theory, but its a police state in action.

    We do not want a legal precedent that supports arresting/charging folks just because a ton of people don’t like them and have sign petitions saying “I think Y person should be arrested…make it so!”

    This is more for “our” protection in the grand scheme than it is for the people involved in this one situation. That is why there are some that feel the need to stand up to blind hatred and the lynchmob mentality.


  374. Manny hear that sucking sounds? I think someone is licking some balls. Thank god they ain’t mine. Don’t think you at 7-11 just because to hear slurping and a major gulp.


  375. Hi VengeneNow – If you could use better grammar it would really help for people to be hurt by your brilliant, yet dirty trollish insults. You must have really been touched by the commentary. I forgive you regardless


  376. Manny:

    “I forgive you regardless.”

    *************************

    Judging from your comments, you’ll forgive just about anything.


  377. Orlo and Now

    Which one of youse is the designated driver? Officer Zimmerman is out there.


  378. mespoo / milar / vengencenow

    Whats wrong with you? Is it really necessary to spew such toxic garbage at people trying to discuss/share opinions?

    These posts of yours add zero value to the discussion and are caustic to everyone else reading through these.

    Just shutup if you don’t have anything serious or at least minimally respectful to add


  379. OK, good morning y’all. First, let me address the factual allegations in Manny Orlo’s e-mail to me.

    “I was referring to the link to the frame taken from the video I posted above. You did notice that in the video at 53 sec the cop is looking at the wounds on Zimmermans head?”

    Here’s my point: A cop looking at Zimmerman’s head proves nothing to me. If, as some people believe, Zimmerman was “treated for his wounds on the scene” a half hour earlier, an EMT would have looked at his head at that time, right? The proof of the presence or absence of any wound on said head would be a matter that might come up at trial, if there were a trial, and here’s how it would come up: the EMT would be sworn in, would answer questions about the medical report he or she filed that evening, and would be questioned first by the prosecutor, then cross-examined by the defense, and then on redirect by the prosecutor, OR, if he or she were a defense witness to prove self-defense, the questioning would go Defense, Prosecution, Defense on redirect. Either way, there would be at least three opportunities for all the allegations to become “facts in evidence.” If, however, there is no such trial, there will be no such “facts in evidence” and you and I (and various others, numbering in the millions) can go back and forth about this expressing our opinions in either elegant, banal, or even vulgar terms.

    “However, from what you wrote, it sounds like you don’t care about Zimmerman’s two wounds on his head because Martin was “right” to attack Zimmerman for 1) watching him, 2) asking him “what you are doing here”, and 3) possibly following him. I however disagree, that any of those activities warrants another person slamming a head into the ground hard enough to cause head wounds.”

    You got it right, there, Manny Orlo. I DON’T care about any wounds that might have been found on Zimmerman after the death of Martin. Here is why: In Florida, there is a law (I don’t remember the statute citation number) referred to commonly as the “Stand Your Ground” law. So Martin had a right to use force, even lethal force (which he apparently was unable to use) to stand his ground when he was approached by Zimmerman that night. Whether Zimmerman was watching him nicely or grumpily, whether he asked him a question or simply called him names, whether he identified himself as a neighborhood watch person or not, etc. etc. etc. You don’t think any of “those activities” warrants “another person” slamming “a head” into the ground. But all this presumes — again — facts not in evidence. In fact, try this on for size. What if there were a trial, and what if, at that trial, a police officer, now retired, was sworn in as a prosecution witness. What if that retired police officer testified that ten years back, he had been “Officer Friendly” in a second-grade public school class in Florida, and he had given a presentation to the children about resisting the advances of strangers, because of “stranger danger” so that kids shouldn’t get into cars being driven by strangers, shouldn’t SPEAK with strangers who try to accost them when they are alone, etc. etc. What if this “Officer Friendly” mentioned that there was a nice, smart, assertive little kid in that class that he particularly remembered because he had never heard that name before, “Trayvon.” What if he said, on direct questioning, “This little kid said he would NEVER engage in a conversation with a stranger who approached him, unless that stranger was in uniform and showed the child a police badge, in which case his parents had taught him to respond respectfully and cooperate.” Absent a police uniform and a badge, Martin had a right to speculate that a stranger coming up to him in the dark — even if he alleged he was a “neighborhood patrol” official — might just as easily be a predatory pedophile. See? We just do not KNOW what Trayvon Martin might have been thinking, any more than you KNOW what Zimmerman actually said to him. So if Zimmerman got a bump on his head because Martin was scared and stood his ground, in Florida, that just wouldn’t matter very much.

    Then you say: “Neither Zimmerman or Martin had a legal right to physically strike anyone until there was a first strike.” Well, I’m not sure you’re licensed to practice law in Florida, but if you are, I would suggest to you that this point of law wouldn’t help you very much if, during the FACT SECTION of the investigation, “who struck first” was an issue that did not get resolved. If you’re saying that we KNOW Trayvon Martin “struck first” I would wonder how you knew that? Martin has never admitted it; only one person has ever said it — the shooter. He obviously had incentive to lie. So where’s the corroboration? But this is a “red herring” because there’s no evidence Martin ever struck at all, much less first.

    “Regarding your “I think” #5…You really think Martin did not do a bit of harm to Zimmerman? You do not accept the multiple eyewitness testimonies that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him? They are all liars? Even in light of the photo frame from the police video?”

    Manny Orlo, I’m not saying those “multiple eyewitnesses” are “all liars” — I don’t even know what they really said because no sworn statements have ever been shown on the websites, notarized and properly authenticated. “Multiple eyewitnesses” could certainly appear at a trial and testify under oath. In fact, if Zimmerman were charged (and there was probable cause for a charge of, at least, manslaughter, that very night) then the “multiple eyewitnesses” could have easily given their affidavits to a defense lawyer who could have filed a motion to dismiss the indictment on the spot. But the question would not be if Malisha “accepted” them — it would be if a JUDGE accepted them. I can’t tell what happened, but if there are witnesses, let them go through the process that our (and Florida’s) legislators have set out in great detail at great expense to our taxpayers; it is called “due process.”

    “That’s really what this case comes down to…first strike.”

    I don’t think so, not under Florida law it doesn’t, but if it did, we’d still have to have a little official fact-finding ABOUT who made the first strike, and I think most rational people would not believe it was Martin, under the circumstances.

    “Tell me, if you somehow came to a realization that Martin did strike Zimmerman first in response to a perfectly legal action like watching/following/citizen arresting him and then also got on top of Zimmerman and starting beating his head into the ground causing those two wounds….would you still condemn Zimmerman for shooting Martin as a last resort?”

    Here, Manny Orlo, you get right down to the actual question: WOULD I STILL CONDEMN ZIMMERMAN? I do not condemn Zimmerman, Manny Orlo. I believe that Zimmerman should go through the legal process that anybody else should go through after they shoot somebody to death. I think there have been plenty of women who have shot their husbands to death and although it may have resulted in them being aquitted or charges being dropped, at first they would usually have been charged with manslaughter to make them PROVE they were acting in self-defense. Here we have someone who shot a smaller, younger, unarmed person to death when he admitted, five minutes previously, that the smaller, younger, unarmed person was going away from him, not toward him, and he was, at that point, in his own car and able to escape any danger he might have perceived. If Zimmerman is condemned, that will have to come after charges, arrest, due process, and either plea or trial. I would not be a part of any of those processes; Floridians would be part of all those processes. If you’re asking me a different question, would I still think that Zimmerman had done great wrong the night he killed Trayvon Martin? YES. I would still think he was a sad, sick, hostile, unintelligent man who gunned down a youngster he did not know, for reasons having more to do with his fragile, wounded ego than the safety of his neighborhood. And my thoughts would not matter to the legal system but if I wanted to, I could write a book about them.


  380. OK, Good morning again.

    Now I must admit that I am utterly confused. I see that VenganceNow writes to Mespo offering to fill out questionnaires, and then it seems that Manny Orlo (hereinafter “MO”) and VengancNow (hereinafter “VN”) get off into a side thing, irritated with each other, if I can follow it. Which, admittedly, I can’t. But one sentence in VN’s e-mail to Mespo reads:

    “Other than that, what is your interest in continual defense of Mr. Martin.”

    Well, OK, this is bizarre, OK? Nevermind the context or the grammar, just look at this sentence: What is Mespo’s interest in “continual defense” of Mr. Martin?

    Nobody is calling for the prosecution of Mr. Martin. Mr. Martin does not need a defensse; he has been killed. The fact, of course, that he did not get a fair trial first is bothering a lot of people — I think Mespo probably has the figures right, 75% of our great nation is probably troubled by that fact. Mr. Martin was never charged with a crime for anything in his life. He obviously needed a DEFENSE the night he was killed, because had someone effectively defended him from Zimmerman that night, he would still be alive right now. But that kind of defense, he did not have. Perhaps he tried to defend HIMSELF that night, perhaps physically, perhaps not, I do not know and neither does anybody else (other than George Zimmerman, who has not joined in the public discussion of the case).

    It seems that MO has actually turned this case from [MANY PEOPLE think that Zimmerman should be charged with a crime for killing Martin] into [A FEW FOLKS think that Martin should be presumed guilty of a crime he was never charged with, allegedly committed before his recent death]. The difference, of course, is this: If Zimmerman were, or is now, charged with a crime, he WOULD get a defense. Since Martin never was charged with a crime, he CANNOT get a defense. Someone like Mespo doing something you call “continual defense” of Martin is actually just pointing out that Martin must be presumed innocent not only because he has never been convicted, but because Zimmerman shot him before the police could even show up to investigate whether or not he was a criminal.


  381. Dear Mespo and Gene H:

    I am gratified by your e-mails. Thank you. In fact, I have fallen, involuntarily, into a serious think-up about this case, which I believe (as stated by Toure recently) that this case is going to prove to be a major turning point in America. NOT because it will reveal corruption in our law enforcement departments, and NOT because it will enlighten us as to how seriously things can go wrong when unscrupulous, morally bankrupt people have lots of power and influence (after all, we’re grown-ups, what’s new?) but because it may bring some real attention to the fact that we are refusing to address our own mental and emotional prejudices, and we are not relying upon our intelligentsia (wher ARE THEY? WHERE ARE THEY?) to guide us through some confusing issues.

    Victimization is a very serious social problem for us. George Zimmerman’s life, to me (and I will study his life, if I live long enough and if enough information comes out to let me do that rigorously), shows much more about this case than does, unfortunately, Trayvon Martin’s life, which was way way too short. But notice how Zimmerman’s whole family and his advocates are carrying on about how badly he was victimized on February 26, 2012, and how he is being further victimized now, in the media, without any valid reason. WHO “out-victim”s everyone? (Please forgive my grammar on that one, I don’t know how to write it and saying it verbally requires little wiggly finger-quotes.) Sociopaths “out-victim” everybody. If you don’t like what they do, and you bring it up, they are all over you with big protestations of how terrible it is of you to criticize anything. BOO HOO was created for their exclusive use, in fact. So the aftermath of the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin has turned into a circus of BOO HOOs for his killer! He got a bloody nose! (Wow, that’s even worse than the time I got a black eye!) He got a bump on the head! (Wow, poor guy, how could he stand it?) He had to kill somebody and now he has PTSD! (There are meds for that: Quick, give him some!) Now, using logic, I can’t say that it is proven that Zimmerman is a sociopath. Such a conclusion would be ridiculous at this point. BUT look at our society: Our society is showing some real sociopathic tendancies. When a family whose son is shot dead by a stranger while he is walking along innocently speaking with his girlfriend on a cell phone gets media attention and mounts a public outcry to have the killer tried for what he did, we see a huge vocal minority screaming and hollering about how unjust, greedy, inappropriate, quasi-criminalistic and HATEFUL they are. Huh? Wait a minute, HUH?

    The social response to the media-backed demand for a proper law enforcement response to the killing of an unarmed 17-year-old youth is about 25% sociopathic, in my view. Now most of the experts who actually study sociopathy in our society estimate that three percent (3%) of the population are true sociopaths. Perhaps the real figure is higher; perhaps, on the other hand, there is a continuum of sociopathy such that people who cannot even understand the Martin-Fulton family’s position in this matter (and call it “hate”) fall somewhere on the curve but not smack in the middle. It scares me; it scares the Hell out of me. I am an American, 65 years old, and I have seen the various pieces of this such as corruption in the courts, influence peddling and cross-contaminated favor-doing in law enforcement, the subtle and even not so subtle operations of racism, etc. etc. etc. But the hue and cry against the Martin-Fulton family’s quest for justice and the deliberate demonization of the REAL VICTIM of the Zimmerman-Martin meeting on February 26, 2012 are beyond my emotional and mental capacity to digest.

    So it sent me back into real research, because I thought I had remembered something from an old, old slave law case. I re-read State versus Mann, 2 Dev. 263, 13 NC 263 (1829) written by the esteemed Judge, C.J. Ruffin. I then read a case in which Ruffin wrote a dissent 20 years later: State v. Caesar, a Slave, 9 Ired. 391, 31 NC 391 (1849). Both North Carolina Supreme Court cases dealt in exquisite detail with the issues of who could kill whom and escape punishment. It turned out that the core issue was a question I express thus: “Who is really supposed to suck it up and do nothing when they are hurt, as opposed to who is really allowed to put up a defense to being hurt?” Both of these cases were written at a time when it was “recognized” that slaves were not allowed to defend and had to “suck it up” if hurt — make that WHEN HURT by whites (whether their “owners” or not). This was supposed to have changed by operation of the Emancipation Proclamation, the 13th Amendment, and 42 USC 1981 through 1988. But change comes slowly in the minds of men, and sometimes, change does NOT come, even slowly. I read people like MO essentially saying that Martin should have been humble when approached by Zimmerman, because he should have assumed (a) Zimmerman to be utterly justified no matter what his intent might have been that night; and (b) himself, Martin, to be subject to Zimmerman’s superior will and intent. I see no other way to read the expectation of submissive humility on the part of Martin. If you read State v. Caesar (an ironic name for a slave, given), furthermore, you see that the two white men who accosted him on a dark night in a residential area identified themselves to him as safety patrol officials, although that was a blatant lie and they were just old drunks out looking for someone to bring them women for sexual services. You see, furthermore, that they started out by “lightly striking” the defendant, whose assistance they demanded — to FIND THEM WOMEN.

    Why would the slave Caesar have to be humble and accept a beating, an atrocious and unlawful demand, and other mistreatment without striking out? Judge Ruffin says that he would have to do that because of his CONDITION of being a slave. That was the law in North Carolina in 1849. But the question was not of guilt or innocence: it was whether he was guilty of murder or only of manslaughter! So our problem, in our society, has really not gone away: Martin was supposed to have patiently and quietly waited to see whether the armed and dangerous white man approaching him wanted to make a citizen’s arrest of him, or simply question him, or perhaps kidnap, rape and torture him, or maybe just ask him to find him a prostitute, how would Martin know the purpose of Zimmerman’s approach? Only if his condition brought with it the inherent necessity of his humble acceptance of WHATEVER ZIMMERMAN’S PURPOSE MIGHT BE do we have a valid question about what Martin actually said or did that night. If, in fact, Trayvon Martin was free and equal on February 26, 2012, unlike Slave Caesar in 1849, then Martin was free to be apprehensive, afraid, defensive, etc., and to do whatever, in his own psyche, was motivated by that fear and self-defensive mental state. No longer subject to laws of inequality such as those in effect in 1829 and 1849 when Judge Ruffin wrote for the court, or laws of inequality such as those in effect when Chief Justice Roger Taney wrote for the US Supreme Court in “Sanford versus Scott” a decade later, Martin’s actions on February 26, 2012 are not relevant to an assessment of the probable cause, that night (and every day thereafter) to arrest Zimmerman for killing him.


  382. Nakisha,

    You write suck rubbish. You know Zimmerman can’t be charged under the law. Dead people don’t testify. That is why they are hanging his honky ass in public. You are part of the prosecutions case. You should think before you put in words what your mind can’t comprehend. If two black boyes kilt each other you wouldn’t hear anything about this issue other than a blurb on the local news.


  383. Ronnie Nagor.:

    “Whats wrong with you? Is it really necessary to spew such toxic garbage at people trying to discuss/share opinions?

    *****************

    So it shall be written, so it shall be done, my emperor.

    Cute name by the way. Did you always have a racial epithet homonym for a name, or are you just funnin’ us garbage spewers?


  384. Malisha, Nakisha.

    Im newt to here.


  385. VengeneNow:

    Earth to VenegeneNow.

    Earth to VenegeneNow.

    Please decode last transmission and identify “Nakisha.” Prior message is garbled. Prior message is garbled.

    Over.

    What is your galactic location?

    Over.

    What is your blood alcohol content?

    Over.

    Seriously, Venegen, you’re a riot? LOL


  386. on 1, April 1, 2012 at 1:09 pm Mike Spindell

    What Malisha has been saying in it’s clarity and totality!


  387. Nakisha was meant to Malisha. Copy that!


  388. Hi Malisha – Wow, those were quite long comments, I appreciate your thoughtfulness

    When I asked if you would still condemn Zimmerman, I of course did not mean to imply that you are a replacement for due process, so no need to spend time stating the obvious, I guess I should have phrased it differently…
    Clearly, if a line was drawn in the sand, based on the data that the news media has published (for what its worth), you would be standing on the side of Martin. My question was would you still stand on that side, given that scenario, and obviously your answer is yes

    Here is what still puzzles me. Based on what you wrote, it sounds like you think that if Zimmerman only watched/followed/approached/citizen arrested Martin (all non-violent), that you fully condone Martin unloading all violence he can muster on Zimmerman due to Officer Friendly’s advice regarding “stranger danger” that Martin may have received back in elementary school. Even if as a result of that preemptive violence, Zimmerman is on his back, Martin can still get on top of him, and beat on his head…not just runaway now that the “danger” is on his back. All justified under this stranger danger concept given to small children in elementary/middle school?

    And it sounds like you would expect Zimmerman should do nothing to defend himself in terms of return violence to stop the attack? It sounds like Zimmerman should just allow the taller Martin to pummel him while pinned until Zimmerman is dead or until Martin tires of pummeling him, whichever comes first

    Then and only in that case, you might see yourself standing on the other side of the line? Its like you are saying, because the taller Martin was a technical minor that he could initiate and do ANY violence to Zimmerman even for imagined danger, even if Zimmerman did nothing violent to him to provoke it.

    Is that really what you think? It seems like in your eyes, the adult’s hands are tied no matter what. And if the adult is faced with fear for is own life as Martin pummels him he should just accept death since Martin is a Minor and refrain from using his gun as a last resort?

    Is there any scenario at all, within reason, where you would not want Zimmerman summarily arrested/charged

    I don’t think stand your ground even “has” to apply for Zimmerman, as I think old fashioned self-defense is all he would need (assuming Zimmerman did not violently strike first), but I wanted to respond to what you mentioned about “stand your ground” as applying to Martin even under the context of Zimmerman only watching/following/reporting/citizen arresting Martin. It looks like the stand your ground statute has at least two salient clauses in this case. 1) You have to be “on your premises”…Considering Zimmerman lived there full time, it seems like only he would qualify for this. While Martin was visiting and wasn’t in his Father’s girlfriend’s house either

    2) “Did not provoke the assault”…I suppose you could say that watching/following/reporting/citizen arresting is “provocation”, but I doubt most would agree looking at the spirit of the stand your ground statute which is essentially to meet first strike violence with violence versus retreat

    Striking first with violence, seems to be the under girding/spirit of that statute though not using those words.

    Lastly, it sounds like you think ANY person who kills another person in self-defense should be arrested and charged with Manslaughter…and then faced with proving they are innocent in a court of law and that it really was self-defense. Do you really think that?

    Check out this story…do you think his man should be arrested and charged with man slaughter? I can’t think of a better application for stand your ground than this story, and I certainly do not think every person who kills in self defense should be arrested and charged. Just being arrested is a blow to a person’s background check, we can’t use arrest as a vetting tool “just to make sure” they are innocent

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Violent-home-intruder-shot-and-killed-in-North-Bend-145392585.html?m=y&smobile=y


  389. Manny,

    You’re funking out. No one can be trusted with the true facts. Martin was accosting and assaulting Zimmerman in his own neighborhood. Zimmerman had a right to defend himself. Martin had no right or business in this gated community. Why did he run when asked to stop?


  390. Malisha,

    I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. Thought provoking


  391. Uh oh, uh oh, I’m lost but I’m having fun! (Time off, I do type fast but I had to take a few minutes for an attack of hebephrenia, after reading Mespo’s 1 pm message!)

    Guys, help me, as in “help help help” and I’ll get that voice-analyzed fer ya!

    Nakisha Malisha — so, something was addressed to ME? So let me, first, give you the origin of the name “Malisha.” No, my mom didn’t give me that name on my birth certificate. (By the way I’m white but probably not as white as many.) The name is a phonetic spelling of a word that we don’t have in our language, “Malicia,” which is related to “Malice,” but not exactly. Malicia is a word that I coined to mean: “the act of responding to perceived malice with finely honed mockery and self-deprecating humor.”

    Now, if I had chosen to coin a word “Nakisha,” this is what it would mean: “The act of pretending to respond to perceived malice with finely honed mockery and self-deprecating humor, if performed on April 1 of any year.”

    But OK. I want to thank Mike Spindell. I worked hard, although not long, on tthe last post I put up. I really feel good when it passes muster with people whose work I already admire.

    But here’s something that I just noticed, in trying to make sure I spelled things correctly: There are posts from VenganceNow and other posts, appearing to emanate from the same virtual persona, coming from VengeneNow. I think most of us are presuming this is the same person but who knows? It’s such a popular name in certain ethnic groups, it could be two completely different individuals, making Mespo’s questions even more fascinating.

    OK, here I am all recovered from my fit of hilarity, and I want to address the charge that there would be no public or media furor if “two black boyes kilt each other.” OK, first of all, if two black boys killed each other, they would both be under 18 years of age when they died and neither of them would have lived, so whether we heard about it or not, there would be nobody available to arrest unless, perhaps, they kilt each other because some third person had forced them to do it. That’s not necessarily a fact situation covered by any statute in the Florida criminal code. On the other hand, if one “black boye” kilt another “black boye” and the police refused to arrest the one who actually kilt the other “black boye,” and if the family of the kilt “black boye” got the media involved in demanding the arrest of their son’s kilter, then, I’ll bet, there would be about a ten minute media furor until the shooter was actually arrested. What distinguishes this case is the obvious: No arrest. Now let’s look at the “stand your ground” law in Florida. (Next post will provide citations for 14 cases decided under that law since its passage; it’s a relatively new law.)


  392. I am sure you do what you do well, sucking the system for what it will get you. If you think I have been here before you are quite ill, but your illness is easy to see when you mock other cultures for your own enjoyment.

    I have a friend that is BLACK, she is female and her family named her Malisha. Your attack on my grammar is as persuasive as your ill spelling and grammar usage. You must be either over medicating yourself or drinking. I am not sure which you are doing, nor do I really care.


  393. Thank you, Blouise, for your words. I really appreciate an intellectual conversation and am extra appreciative if I get good vibes back. I don’t know how to draw those little smiley faces, though.

    Now Manny Orlo, let me BRIEFLY clarify my position, especially on the issue of the self-defense claim apparently made (and now enlarged and enhanced and dramatized by others) by Zimmerman. First, we cannot say that Zimmerman was on HIS turf while Martin was on someone else’s turf. When first spotted, Martin was on public property doing no harm and committing no legal offense, not even trespass. According to Zimmerman’s police tape, he spotted Martin and he noticed that Martin became aware of him watching Martin. Then he actually said, “These assholes always get away.” Martin was retreating. The reason the police asked Zimmerman if he was FOLLOWING Martin was probably that comment. I blame Zimmerman for everything that happened thereafter, Manny, for the simple reason that he chose to get out of his vehicle, where he was safe, and where he knew that police were going to arrive within minutes, and he therefore decided to place himself in a different relationship with the presumed “asshole” who was “getting away” than he had previously been in, when all he was doing was watching and reporting to the police. Yes, everything that followed can be seen — and by ME, IS SEEN — as provocation, at the very least. When I say “at the very least,” I mean that the very least thing that Zimmerman did by going after Martin was to provoke him by scaring him; the very most thing that Zimmerman did by going after Martin was cold-blooded hostility-driven murder. Whether it was the former, the latter, or something in between — that is the only question I believe is really at issue here. And fortunately, there is some (OK, not much) guidance for a court to determine where, in the continuum, the charges should fall.

    By the way, any provocation nullifies the protective effect of the “stand your ground” law. I’ll send some cases and quotes from the Florida courts in my next post, about that very issue.

    I’m not suggesting, by the way, that a court of law in Florida might not ultimately see things differently from the way I see them. We all know about that part of it, no matter how smart we think we are, no matter how right we think we are. I have my prejudices, you have yours, and so forth and so on. But for cops who have never been to law school and a prosecutor whose past history includes attacking a judge and trying to get her removed from her position because she made a ruling he didn’t like to make a decision, in a few hours one Sunday night, that a guy who displayed impaired judgment, unaccountable frustration with “assholes,” various disturbed and disturbing remarks about things that were not very disturbing to any normal person, had killed an unknown, unarmed pedestrian in “self-defense” is just plain nuts. It is not to be tolerated. It is too dumb for words, but since there are so many words, I find it impossible to stop adding my two billion cents’ worth.

    Some of the stuff that I have heard so far is so obviously untrue that I don’t know why people aren’t embarrassed to say it. The insistence that Zimmerman was grievously wounded by Martin is beyond my belief; the idea that Martin jumped him from behind is delusional in my opinion; the schoolteacher witness’s calm, credible claim that her report to the police was not given proper attention is very believable; the suggestion that Martin’s own father thought the “help help” cries were Zimmerman’s is what we call “from hunger,” so what I am left with is the impression that the very vocal Zimmerman defense team is using the defense strategy called “confusion, ambiguity and chaos.” People are running off on tangents that logically don’t even have a place in the issue. Was Trayvon Martin an innocent lamb and an all-A student? What’s THAT about? The question is: “Was Zimmerman stalking Martin with a loaded gun?” Are most victims of “Black Crime” also Black? What’s THAT about? The question is: Was this case ignored by the police because the victim was Black and his community and family were considered unworthy of defense and incapable of protest? What’s all this about where most crime is committed or why or how? THIS CRIME WAS COMMITTED.

    Yes, I am on the “Martin side” but I think this should be restated. I am on the side that believes that the killing of Trayvon Martin should be investigated, charged, tried, etc. just the same as if a person who did not know George Zimmerman had shot him to death on February 26, 2012 because that person believed Zimmerman was an asshole.


  394. Malisha,

    Just in case you want to add some smiley spice to your posts . . .

    http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies


  395. VengeneNow, I’m sorry, I don’t understand you, but if your friend whose given name is Malisha is insulted that I have used that name, apologize for me, OK? I never meant to trouble her at all, or her mother. It’s nice to know you have a friend.

    Now, as to mocking, well, there are all kinds of responses available to abuse. As we heard from some Zimmermans recently, when some people feel themselves abused they cry for three days, or they get PTSD, or they yell “Help Help Help!” Whatever. I don’t mock “cultures” but I do enjoy mocking ideas put forth that are so silly they beg for it. Check into the daily Borowitz Report from Andy Borowitz for fabulous examples of mocking silly ideas. I wish I could do it as he does!

    Are you saying that both spellings, VengeneNow and VengancNow, are one and the same and they are you?


  396. Hi Malisha – What is your answer to this?

    Do you think ANY person who kills another person in self-defense should be arrested and charged with Manslaughter…and then faced with proving they are innocent in a court of law and that it really was self-defense. Do you really think that?

    Thanks
    Manny


  397. Hey thanks, Gene H. I might look into those smiley faces later. Now, I am reporting on my research on the cases decided in Florida under the “Stand Your Ground” law. (I’ll call it the SYG law.) What I found so far (in chronological order, oldest to most recent) is as follows:

    1. State v. Heckman, 993 So.2d 1004, decided in December 2007 by the 2nd District Court of Appeals (DCA) of Florida. The Defendant was arrested and charged with assault. Defense counsel filed a motion to dismiss the criminal information and the judge granted it. The prosecutor appealed and won. This was a case in which a guy had gone to his ex-wife’s house and her present husband or boyfriend answered the door, and the two guys got into it. Eventually they threatened and committed various crimes against each other, and the ex smashed up the current boyfriend’s car, in his garage. Then the current boyfriend shot the ex. Although the judge dismissed it for SYG, the appeals court said that the ex was walking AWAY from the house (after committing threats and vandalism) at the time he was shot so the shooting was NOT as SYG self-defense.

    2. The next case decided was when a guy shot his own brother (who survived, but the charge was attempted first degree murder). State v. Peterson, 983 So.2d 27, April 2008 (First DCA, FL). Peterson was charged, and his counsel made a pretrial motion to dismiss based on SYG law. The judge held a hearing and denied it; defense counsel took it up on appeal and lost. The finding was made that when such immunity is pled by defense, the defendants must prove it to the judge by “preponderance of the evidence.” Not just the existence of a dispute as to the evidence, but the actual preponderance. If the defendant loses the motion to dismiss, of course, he can still raise self-defense again as an affirmative defense at trial.

    3. Then in October, 2008, State v. Bartlett, 993 So.2d 157. A woman stabbed her live-in boyfriend to death and her lawyer moved to dismiss for self-defense. The cop who had arrested her testified that it was NOT, in his opinion, self-defense, and her lawyer appealed. The appeals court said the cop’s testimony of his opinion was not permissible before the jury. Defense counsel argued that it was permissible because the cop had to have probable cause before arresting, but the appellate court said OK, he can testify as to what he observed, but NOT as to his opinion relating to what happened before he was there. I’ll put a STAR on this one! The mere fact that the statute “required the investigator(s) to determine whether “there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful” does not automatically bootstrap this information into admissible evidence. On this record, the factual matter of what the investigator personally observed at the crime scene is quite distinct from his opinion regarding what had happened before his arrival, i.e., the circumstances of the actual death. I believe this case means that the cop doesn’t get to decide it’s self-defense; the judge does.

    4. Then we find State versus Velazquez, 9 So. 3d 22. In this case the court dealt with the correct procedure for dismissing a criminal charge at the hearing on whether or not it was a “SYG” case. The court said that the mere existence of a factual dispute as to whether it was self-defense or not was enough to deny a motion to dismiss the charges. That made it harder for a defendant to use self-defense BEFORE TRIAL. (Later, though, the Supreme Court of Florida decided this issue differently.)

    5. Then the FL fifth DCA came up with a different procedure, saying in State v. Gray, 13 So.3rd 114, May 2009, that the original procedure (a hearing and the judge decides on preponderance of the evidence) is the proper way to do it, but that court noted that there were three cases at that level and a confusion as to procedure. If the defendant pleads self-defense under the SYG law, does the judge have to hold a hearing and dismiss if the defendant proves self-defense by a PREPONDERANCE or should the judge deny the motion if there is ANY evidence that it was not self-defense? That case was a sort of gangland killing involving violence on both sides and people who knew each other, and had been violent towards each other, in the past, before the incident occurred.

    6. Then First DCA FL decided State v. Hair, 17 So.3rd 804. A guy went to a nightclub and had an argument; later that night the guy he argued with tried to get into his car and others who were there testified that as the struggle progressed, the shooter pulled out a handgun and killed the intruder. There were witnesses who were inside the car who testified at the hearing on the SYG law. But the judge denied the defendant’s SYG motion to dismiss and he got overturned in the appeals court. The Florida First DCA said that, by preponderance of the evidence, the defendant did really prove that he shot the intruder (into his car) in self defense, so he should not have to stand trial for murder.

    7. Then I came to a fascinating and very relevant case. State v. Harold Govoni, 17 So.3rd 809, decided in August 2009 in Boca Raton. Govoni was a retiree with no criminal past who lived in a residential community in Boca Raton. He was the president and authorized agent of the community association. Yet he was charged with five counts of aggravated assault with a firearm and improper exhibition of a dangerous weapon for an incident that took place in his community. The charges arose out of Govoni’s encounter with five young men. Govoni said he held his “unloaded gun in his hand” to protect himself from “dope smoking trespassers.” Relying on the statements of the victims, the state’s version cast Govoni in a much different light. The trial court denied Govoni’s motion to dismiss under the SYG law, and his lawyer took it up on appeal. The appeals court backed up trial court because the prosecutor had disagreed with the defense assertion that he was just standing his ground, so the case had to go to trial. Florida’s Fourth DCA said (a) that the motion to dismiss was correctly denied and (b) that there was confusion (about how to deal with the SYG law) and they wanted high court to rule. Should there be a facts hearing by a judge on whether SYG applied or not, or should the mere fact that the prosecutor noted a dispute of facts make it necessary for the court to deny the motion to dismiss the charges? Again, the DCA wanted the Florida Supreme Court to decide this question.

    8. Then we have State v. Horn, 17 So.3rd 836, 2nd DCA, Aug, 2009, a guy showed his gun to another guy who had been threatening him. Then the decedent walked AWAY, but then returned. There was conflicting testimony from various witnesses as to details. Horn shot the other guy six times. Testimony said the last two shots were when he was already prone on the ground. Horn filed motion to dismiss under the SYG law; it was denied, and he appealed. The Second DCA said the judge was right to deny the motion to dismiss, because at the hearing, the judge properly ruled that the defendant had NOT SHOWN by PREPONDERANCE of the evidence that he had killed in self-defense.

    9. We’re up to State v Montanez, 24 So 3rd 799 Jan. 2010. A tow truck owner shot and killed some guy who was trying to drive his truck away (presumably without paying). Defendant shot into the driver’s side window of the truck. At the hearing on the motion to dismiss, the judge ruled that it was not a SYG-protected shooting in self-defense because he did not believe that the defendant was really in danger that he’d be run over by the truck. The judge believed, instead, that the victim was trying to get his truck back and the tow-truck owner shot in anger.

    10. Also in State v. Yaqubie, June 2010, 3rd DCA, 51 So.3rd 474: The motion to dismiss was not granted, the defendant appealed and lost the appeal, and it was pointed out that the presence, in the mind of the killer, of ill-will or evil intent essential to second degree murder was an issue for the jury. That case specifically pointed out that a defendant’s characterization of his own actions as being only defensive was not determinative. Where facts surrounding the killing were equivocal, and could be characterized either as defensive or as spiteful, hateful, or evil, the charges could not be dismissed. A jury had to make the decision.

    11. Finally, in State v. Dennis, the Florida SUPREME COURT decided on the procedure to be used for dismissing or refusing to dismiss a case when there is a SYG defense before trial. 51 So.3rd 456, Dec. 2010. The Supreme Court of Florida said that there should be a hearing and a determination, by a judge, on the preponderance of the evidence, with the burden being on the defendant to show that his conduct was protected by the SYG law. So in the Dennis case, the judge was held to be wrong, to have denied the motion without holding a hearing. It was called “harmless error,” however, because the defendant did get a chance to present his self-defense evidence to a jury and he lost, fair and square.

    12. State v. Dorsey Oct 2011, 74 So. 3 521, 4 DCA FL. The court used the SYG law to say that the charges should have been manslaughter, not murder. In that case, about 6 guys surrounded the defendant, who was by his car; they were all drunk. One of them punched the defendant in his face and all the rest of them saw it. Then the defendant pulled his gun and shot two of them dead. He, however, had the gun illegally because he was a convicted felon; that fact made it all different. He was characterized as “overreacting to” the attack. Remanded for a new trial, the charges had to be amended to manslaughter, not murder.

    13. And a very interesting case where the SYG law prevailed and the defendant’s charges were dismissed. The prosecutor appealed and lost. The case was State v. Gallo. 76 So.3rd 407, Dec 2011. Second DCA. The appeals court said: “[The victim’s] unfortunate death resulted from events reminiscent of the ‘Shootout at the OK Corral.’ At around 2:30 in the morning, [defendant and victim] confronted each other outside of a busy night club in…Sarasota. They argued regarding a debt…. As tempers flared the argument became more physical. Eventually the minor tussling stopped and more serious threats began. The situation reached a climax, breaking out into a gunfight between at least four men in the middle of the street. Men were ducking behind cars and firing over their shoulders as they ran for cover. An officer nearby heard several of the shots and arrived at the scene quickly. When he arrived, he found [the victim] on the ground in the middle of the street suffering from multiple gunshot wounds. The officer ran back to his car to collect medical equipment, but a large, hostile crowd surrounded [the victim] and prevented the officer from returning to render aid. [The victim] succumbed to his injuries. By the time law enforcement could secure the area, there was no sign of any of the firearms. However, law enforcement discovered twenty-six shell casings of four different types in the vicinity.” That Defendant was charged, a motion to dismiss was filed, and it was granted. The state appealed, but lost the appeal. The appeals court decided that the circumstances were so severe that the defendant was merely standing his ground in the midst of the battle.

    14. The most recent case, State v. Darling, Feb 29, 2012, 37 is reported only in Florida Law Weekly D-506, because it doesn’t even have its citation yet. It holds that “Justification for using deadly force in self defense, which includes the “stand your ground” defense, does not apply to a person who provokes the attack. [citing that statute, 776.041(2) Florida Statutes, 2007]. There are only two exceptions to this rule: (1) where there is no means of escape other than the use of deadly force, or (2) if the provoking person withdraws from physical contact or unequivocally indicates his desire to withdraw from the confrontation and the alleged victim continues or resumes the use of force.” A guy went into a residential area to buy some drugs. Apparently he didn’t make his connection. Returning to his car, he was stopped by Darling, who called out to him, questioning why he was there. He and Darling both SHOT AT EACH OTHER – both of them armed and dangerous. A bystander was killed. Darling was tried and convicted of second degree murder of the bystander and attempted homicide of the intended drug-buyer. Self-defense was specifically ruled out after an evidentiary hearing. The point was made that if you provoke an attack, you can’t hide behind the SYG law. So Darling, who called out to the would-be drug buyer and questioned why he was there, was not even entitled to the SYG defense while the other guy was armed and shooting at HIM. He had provoked the attack.

    So from all this, my conclusions go like this:

    * There has been quite a bit of confusion among the judges as to how to apply this law. Yes, it’s related to the affirmative defense (at trial) of self-defense, but if it works, it works even before the trial, so the judge becomes the finder of fact and the case doesn’t even go to a jury. Lot of pressure on one judge, I would think. Maybe that will play out in the Zimmerman case, maybe not. I would imagine the whole thing, if ever tried, would have to be tried in a different venue because it would be impossible for Wolfinger’s office to prosecute this case. But anyway, besides confusion, a few things are coming clear about the use of that law.

    * A person who claims the SYG defense has a stiff burden to be able to prove it. His word alone is not much use, when it comes to it. “I killed in self-defense because I was standing my ground” didn’t work for the lady killing her boyfriend in the mobile home; it didn’t work for the guy with the heart condition shooting the fellow who had previously threatned to kill him in front of witnesses; it didn’t work for the guy who was surrounded by six hostile drunks by his car and punched in the nose; it didn’t work for the community association president who pulled an unloaded gun on five “trespassors,” and it DIDN’T work for the guy who killed a would-be drug purchaser who was shooting at HIM while he was killed! To overcome the burden, you have to practically be in a movie scene with a swat team of confirmed criminals surrounding you and trying hard to kill you and even admitting it. I’m not saying Zimmerman’s case (if he had a case) would be impossible to succeed, but I am saying that it is not exactly “guaranteed to succeed.”

    And like that.

    Smiley faces next screed around. Best regards,


  398. Manny Orlo, your question was:
    “Do you think ANY person who kills another person in self-defense should be arrested and charged with Manslaughter…and then faced with proving they are innocent in a court of law and that it really was self-defense. Do you really think that?”

    The short answer is NO, but of course, I’m not a cop.

    The long (don’t worry, it’s not as long as some) answer is:

    “ANY person who kills another person in self-defense” is a self-referencing statement. I’d go ahead and rephrase YOUR question like this: Do I believe that any person who killed another person, while the police officers were not there watching the whole thing take place, and who claims that he did so in self-defense, should be arrested…etc.?”

    Still, no.

    I DO believe that any person who killed another person WHOM HE DID NOT KNOW and who claims that he did it IN SELF DEFENSE although it does not appear obvious that the other person had a lethal weapon visible should in fact be arrested and charged with at least manslaughter.

    I DO believe that a person who killed another person WHOM SHE DID KNOW and whom she had accused on four prior occasions of beating her (but she never went to the doctor or hospital to substantiate injuries) should in fact be arrested unless she was, at the time of the arrest, injured badly enough to be taken first to the E.R. before being interviewed by the police. I think she should also have counsel to defend her, and probably the counsel would use self-defense in her favor.

    I DO believe that a person who killed another person in full view of witnesses who told the police that the shooter was surrounded by angry drunks and punched in the face before using his weapon should be arrested and charged with manslaughter, but probably nothing MORE than manslaughter.

    I DO believe that a person who killed a stranger who had advanced on him at night, after having tried to run away from the stranger, and yelled repeatedly for help, and who had in fact killed that stranger with the stranger’s own gun, which he had wrestled out of the stranger’s hands after being accosted, should probably not be arrested, or if he was arrested, should be charged with involuntary manslaughter, especially in a state that has the “Stand Your Ground” law.

    Manny Orlo, your belief that Zimmerman should not have been arrested rests on two pillars: (a) That Zimmerman was beaten up and/or threatened by Martin; and (b) that the police were not deliberately letting him off as an act of calculated corruption and cover-up. I don’t believe either of these. I believe, and will continue to believe, until and unless I see some real, valid, evidence subjected to cross-examination (read “in court”), that what happened was that:

    George Zimmerman was an intermittently violent, emotionally deficient individual;

    He set out on the night of February 26, 2012 in a state of internal turmoil and dissatisfaction, somehow related to the fact that he could not achieve punishment of people he thought needed it and that they somehow were keeping him from being as great as he wanted to be;

    He saw Trayvon Martin walking along and he focused his private disordered hatred on the boy;

    He called the police hoping they would come and deliver punishment to the “asshole” and make him feel a lot better about himself, and help him prove to others how important he was;

    He didn’t think the police were being as aggressive and appreciative as he wanted them to be; they were not giving him enough respect;

    He got out of the car to take care of business himself since the police were letting another “asshole” get away;

    He confronted Martin and demanded an obsequious, “yassuh” kind of response, but didn’t get what he expected;

    He scared the boy half to death and whatever happened next is anybody’s guess but considering the time that passed and the physical condition of Zimmerman 35 minutes later, what happened was very unlikely to be the delivery of a severe beating to Zimmerman by Martin; and

    Police showed up,
    Possibly Judge Robert Zimmerman had already called them;
    Even if not, the police didn’t want this to end up a murder case;
    Police took Zimmerman in and questioned him;
    One of the three officers did not believe Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense;
    Without testing Zimmerman for either drugs or alcohol, and without seizing his cell phone, and without searching his vehicle, and without any other appropriate investigation, the cops and the prosecutor decided to cover up the crime and let it go.

    But then the media showed up.
    And you and I, among others, got into it.

    Best regards,


  399. Manny Orlo, I just checked into that url you provided about the killing of the home-intruder in North Bend, Washington.

    Man, I’m sorry, I just have to say this: that is completely, totally, absolutely, obviously, and clearly INAPPOSITE and INAPPLICABLE to this case.

    The North Bend case had the following evidentiary details:

    1. Dead man had broken into home of shooter.
    2. Dead man caused physical damage while breaking into home = evidence other than the statement of the shooter.
    3. Shooter and wife had retreated into bedroom to escape dead man.
    4. Shooter and wife called 911 reporting their fear and asking for help.
    5. Shooter warned dead man that he was armed.
    6. Wife witnessed above actions and confirmed them to police at the scene.
    7. Dead man continued to advance and was actually killed IN the bedroom.

    Therefore, all physical evidence and all witness testimony, including but not limited to that of the shooter, agreed with the theory of self-defense, AS DID the content of the 911 call.

    Zimmerman – Martin, on the other hand:

    1. Although you have decided that “the neighborhood” was equivalent to “Zimmerman’s home” and thus Zimmerman’s “home” was invaded by Martin being there, the first point is: MARTIN did NOT intrude into Zimmerman’s home.

    2. There was no physical evidence that Martin tried to enter Zimmerman’s car of that he in any other way advanced upon him.

    3. There is no evidence that Zimmerman tried to get away from Martin; in fact, he got OUT OF HIS CAR to go after Martin.

    4. Zimmerman did not call for help; he originally called police and then voluntarily got off the phone before they arrived, deciding to advance on the boy himself instead of waiting. (Actually, had he waited, Martin would have “gotten away” because he was very close to his father’s girlfriend’s house when Zimmerman spotted him.)

    5. We don’t know if Zimmerman told Martin he was armed but in view of the fact that the girlfriend on the cell phone didn’t mention hearing anything about a gun, it is unlikely.

    6. No one person witnessed the entire transaction except for Zimmerman, and his word is not to be taken since he has incentive to lie to get out of punishment for a crime.

    7. We have no evidence that Martin “continued to advance” or that he ever did “advance” except for Zimmerman’s word. Again, even those witnesses who claim to have seen the victim ON TOP of the shooter, did not say they saw how he got on top. Just no evidence at all.

    So that case, Manny Orlo, doesn’t convince me of anything except that you’re not using the laws of logic very clearly if you think these two cases bear any similarity. I think the homeowners in North Bend were certainly defending themselves; I think Zimmerman has a long row to hoe to prove HE was.

    Although you think whatever took place between Zimmerman and Martin after Zimmerman got out of his car amounted to violence and aggression on Martin’s part, there was NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of either violence or aggression on Martin’s part. See, Manny Orlo, had the police believed there was evidence of violence on Martin’s part, it was their responsibility to document that by taking photographs of the injuries inflicted on Zimmerman that night. STILL PHOTOS, in which they recorded the injuries. Everybody knows that.


  400. Hi Malisha – Easy there turbo! I wasn’t trying to draw a parallel between Martin/Zimmerman and the North Bend case.

    I was merely using that as an example to frame the question see if in the North Bend case (much more clear cut) you still thought that man should be arrested/charged just for the combination of killing and claiming self defense.

    Thanks for clarifying that you DO NOT think every person should be arrested/charged just for claiming to kill in self defense. : )

    I do plan to read all your cases researching SYG, just need to do some grocery shopping first.


  401. Manny:

    “Do you think ANY person who kills another person in self-defense should be arrested and charged with Manslaughter?”

    ***************************

    Of course, someone who kills in self-defense shouldn’t be arrested. You’ve assumed your answer in the premise to your question. That’s called begging the question or, as it’s sometimes called, the petitio principii fallacy.

    The question actually is: if a reasonable belief exists that the defendant killed the decedent and did not act in self defense despite his claims to the contrary should he be arrested? That answer is clearly “yes.”

    Like I said Manny, you’re in over your head here.


  402. Good job Malisha and Mespo!


  403. on 1, April 1, 2012 at 9:24 pm Anonymously Yours

    Yes excellent work mespo and malisha….I hope the States do away with these SYG laws…. And go back to the castle curttlage doctrine…..


  404. Hey, there, Rafflaw, nice to hear from you!

    I was just thinking that I was feeling grateful for encouragement from Mespo, Gene H, Blouise, Mike Spindell (for I’m not really much of a blogger; this case brought me out), and then I thought, “uh oh, where’s Rafflaw?” To tell the truth, I feel like the debate on this blog has done some actual good. Not that I think anybody has particularly changed his mind, but that lots of issues have been pulled up out of the morass and they’re beginning to be defined and arguments REFINED, and that can’t be bad. I mean, this thing actually drove me to the CASES! I had to see what was going ON down there in FLA-FLA land!


  405. Ooops, Anonymously Yours, hi and thanks! You were weighing in while I was typing.

    Nice to see you. Tell me what you think about the “Trayvon was the only one entitled to protection under the SYG law” premise.

    Best regards,


  406. on 1, April 1, 2012 at 10:13 pm Anonymously Yours

    I am unsure what you’re asking…. If you are asking if I think martin was entitled to use this law….I don’t know enough about what he was doing….Zimmerman clearly exceeded any bounds of protection by going after this young man….. The law should not be able to be used as a shield for this criminal act….


  407. You know, I was thinking about the SYG laws. The Florida one prevents civil suits in addition to criminal prosecutions, and I do not think that is constitutional. In other words, a criminal case is brought by a prosecutor and has to conform to certain standards and so forth, and the standard of proof is “beyond a reasonable doubt,” and the crime has to be care-fully defined in the written criminal law. A tort, however, can be charged by a private citizen deciding on his own and need not conform to as strict a definition of what was done and, for instance, what state of mind the tortfeasor had to have when committing the alleged tort. The standard for most torts is proof by a preponderance (which is commonly thought of as 51%) whereas conviction of a crime has to be by a much higher percentage. Even for a prima facie case, there is much more leeway for civil actions because you can bring the action BEFORE you do all the discovery necessary to pull up your facts. And barring a downright friv-olous action, a citizen is free to make mistakes. Furthermore, a loss at the trial court level for a civil case can go up on appeal, whereas a pro-secutor who loses a case after a full trial can’t do anything about it. So I wonder if Florida’s law shouldn’t lead to a test case…but that’s probably so far away, unless there’s been a SYG case in another county where someone was actually charged, made a SYG motion to dismiss, won it, got sued, lost that, appealed, and…

    Think of the OJ case — not that he claimed self-defense, but in terms of there being a different set of rights and wrongs in a criminal prosecution and a civil action for damages stemming from the same event. If California had some law that made it impossible to sue for damages after aquittal, what would have happened?

    The recently expressed idea that the whole neighborhood was the “home” of Zimmerman but Martin had no business being there in Zimmerman’s “home” is very vexing, and obviously, it allows suspicious and hostile people to imagine they OWN our country. Zimmerman acted like he OWNED the street he was driving on and the sidewalk Martin was walking on. “What are you doing here?” The answer was obvious. Martin was living. At that moment, at least. Shortly thereafter, not.

    Wow, do I ever NOT want to live in a country owned by Zimmerman and those like him. I want to live in a country where my life interest is not to be taken without due process.


  408. Hi Mespo – It doesn’t matter what I say/do, just not good enough for you….you’ve called me a number of names, attacked “how” I have asked a fair question, said you won’t “suffer me” any longer, yet despite that impossibly insolent twice declared statement you just don’t seem to have the self-discipline to stop referring to me in the third person or attacking me directly as you have just done…again. When others call you out, you just turn and attack them also in some snide way. I am genuinely sorry for people that have to work or live with you, if by chance they should offend your sensibilities or disagree with you

    Your haughty words are poison to all you unfortunately hear them. It is too bad that any valuable things you might have to say are intolerable, because they are coated in such an offensive substance.

    Show me and everyone on this site you actually have integrity and self-discipline, and stop talking to or about me as you yourself indicated you would. Bet you just cant refrain

    Thanks
    Manny


  409. Manny:

    I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em. Bottom line is that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. If Malisha wants to play with you that’s entirely up to her, but I see no need to suffer your silly comments and questions quietly.

    As if that absurd question about arresting people who kill in self-defense wasn’t proof enough, here’s more of your take on a serious situation that merits serious discussion with my comments in “[ ]“:

    1. “What Martin should have done (after decking Zimmerman) is run away, But NOooo, he had to sit down on top of him and beat the crap out of his face.”

    [Obviously the video disproves this nonsense but if Martin felt threatened bythe guntoting busybody, hehad no duty to retreat. That's what we've been talking about for days in the context of Stand Your Ground Laws.]

    2. “The Martin parents don’t wan’t justice, they just want Zimmerman and they will take any piss poor reason to get at him.”

    [That's why they've been to every authority from the US Congress on down to ask for justice.]

    3. “If zimmerman is charged/arrested, then we might as well as a country start a 1800-arrest-them and arrestanyone.com. Then if I say to arrest anyone they simply will be and then we can spend tax dollars “proving” that person is innocent. Its called guilty, until proven innocent and it’s anti-american.”

    [Here's a revelation for you, Manny, every person arrested in this country is legally innocent of that crime at time of arrest. We don't arrest guilty folks, and we don't make them prove their innocence. We presume they are legally innocent. We arrest people for whom we have probable cause that they have committed a crime. As recent events have proven and as the chief investigating detective conceded, there is plenty of probable cause here. And that's not "lawyer-talk;" it's eighth grade civics.]

    4. “Regarding the phrase? Its irrelevant regardless, here is why
    If you do technical backflips to clear it up at best he “may” have said any of the following (he has an accent)
    –f’ng coons
    –f’ng cones (There are pine cones on the ground this time of year and I myself have stepped on them by accident and almost sprained my ankle. Could also be traffic cones)
    –f’ng cold (The wind picked up clearly when this was said so wind chill would explain this)

    [ Anyone with an ear heard exactly what Zimmerman said. It shows his intent and coupled with his lying about his bleeding nose, lying about calling for help; and just plain ignoring what the dispatcher and everyone in the Neighborhood Watch Program told him to do makes him the aggressor, not the teenager.]

    5. You have said in four separate occasions that Martin was 6’3″. He wasn’t. You kept doing it like a mantra after I told you he was 6’0″. Do you want him to be taller? You also told us Zimmerman is 5’2″. A cursory view of the video shows he’s a lot taller than that and weighs at least 250 lbs.

    6. “If you have never had someone on top of you keeping you down while they beat your face in against the ground then youu simply do not know
    how deadly that can be. If Martin was using an un-opened can of Arizona ice tea to beat his face its even worse
    The only thing worse than a fist is a fist with a rock in it for a soda can.”

    (…)

    Every single thing I say is based on the following published evidence ( see below…if you actually care). Seriously…you guys are embarrassing yourselves to people
    that have been poring over ever bit of evidence that has been made public…cause some really care

    [There is not one media outlet that reported your unsupported accusation about a rock or tea can being used as a weapon. It's more of your speculation and attempts to evade critical questions from OS and rafflaw and Gene H.]

    It’s like listening to prevaricating seven-year-old trying to explain the theory of quantum physis. You’ve got none of the basics and you draw all the wrong conclusions because you make up the facts. In short, you’re all wet and your holding the hose.

    Sorry, Manny, we don’t suffer fools gladly around here, and like I said you’re in way over your head.


  410. Manny Orlo, I’ll go ahead and do what Mespo calls “playing with you” again, not really because I think we’re actually speaking with each other, but because I want to address some of these things you’re throwing around as if they are accepted facts.

    1. You say that Martin jumped on Zimmerman and beat him, pummeled his face, yada yada, even smashed him with a full can of iced tea, etc. That is not a “fact in evidence,” Manny; that’s an idea. It sounds like a sick fantasy. There is no evidence of it, at all. Not only do the pictures at the station house fail to show evidence of it, but it’s beyond belief! When you keep harping on it you begin to sound mentally unsound, man. OK, his father said he had a broken nose and a cracked-open head — but remember, those pictures hadn’t surfaced yet and remember, his father wasn’t there on the scene and remember, his father has reason to want to protect him from prosecution. His lawyer made the big announcement that “Trayvon Martin broke my client’s nose” but then he fell silent pretty damn quick, didn’t he? The thing is not fact, Manny.

    2. You say all Zimmerman was doing was peaceable, justifiable, and all like that, but it doesn’t cut the mustard either. He sounded agitated when he called in Martin’s location to the cops; he coudln’t stand something; something was really bothering him. “These assholes always get away.” WHAT ASSHOLES? ASSHOLES like the 46 young black men that you called in previously who “got away” because the cops came to check them out and found them to be perfectly normal, non-criminal, ordinary, peaceful citizens on their way from one place to another and doing no harm to a wacko paranoid wannabe named Zimmerman whose father was a judge and whose “estranged” brother was much more successful than he was?

    3. You say that Zimmerman had to shoot MArtin to prevent himself from being killed, and you even drum up other cases where people actually DID shoot others to prevent their own demise, but the arguments you have to support that theory are all circular.

    Martin attacked Zimmerman and
    that’s how we know he was dangerous to Zimmerman and
    Zimmerman knew he was dangerous and
    that’s why Zimmerman was trying to stop him and
    therefore Martin was trying to kill Zimmerman and
    since Zimmerman shot Martin, it just SHOWS that
    Martin was trying to kill Zimmerman because
    otherwise WHY would Zimmerman have had to kill him?

    Man, it’s just — you just — you know, you’d flunk Logic 101 with that stuff, really. But don’t worry about it all too much, ’cause I’ll still play with you.

    Sincerely,


  411. Oh, Anonymously Yours, here’s what I was asking.

    Given that Zimmerman first saw Martin when Zimmerman was in the car,
    and
    Given that Zimmerman called the police when he first saw Martin,
    and
    Given that Zimmerman gave his info. to the cops and was told that they didn’t need him to follow Martin,
    and
    Given that Zimmerman actually said that Martin was “getting away,”
    and
    Given that Zimmerman did, without any doubt or equivocation, follow Martin,

    …and…
    presuming that
    Martin then physically did something to Zimmerman (whatever it was)
    and
    Given that Zimmerman then shot Martin dead,

    With those presumptions and givens, my take on this is:

    IF Martin used any amount of force on Zimmerman, that would have been perfectly legal under the Florida SYG law; because he was being approached by someone and he was standing his ground, but…

    NO force used by Zimmerman against Martin would be excusable under the Florida SYG law because, without duress, and in fact with advice from the police NOT to do so, he got out of his car and advanced on Martin, who was initially on foot and heading away.

    So, I guess it’s a long question, but there it is.


  412. on 1, April 2, 2012 at 8:21 am Anonymously Yours

    Summerized….

    Yes….


  413. on 1, April 2, 2012 at 8:23 am Anonymously Yours

    Malisha,

    If you are asking if martin could based upon the facts presented used the law to his advantage……


  414. Yes, my point exactly. ONLY Martin fits into the “coverage” of the SYG law, while Zimmerman does NOT. Martin, if he actually jumped, beat, threatened, pummeled, bruised, brutalized [etc. etc. blah blah blah]ed Zimmerman, was within his rights under Florida law!

    Zimmerman on the other hand gave up his right to “stand his ground” when he exited from his vehicle and followed Martin, whether he questioned him nicely or not, whether he got a beating or not, etc. etc. blah blah blah.


  415. Backing up to a post by VengeneNow:

    You write suck rubbish. You know Zimmerman can’t be charged under the law. Dead people don’t testify. That is why they are hanging his honky ass in public. You are part of the prosecutions case. You should think before you put in words what your mind can’t comprehend. If two black boyes kilt each other you wouldn’t hear anything about this issue other than a blurb on the local news.

    ————————– * ———————– * ————————-

    OK, deep breath.

    About me writing “suck rubbish,” OK, I think that’s fair enough. But then again, I don’t have an editor. If I had an editor, I might write — oh I don’t know, maybe Pluck Shrubbish. Sounds “green.” Might sell.

    “You know Zimmerman can’t be charged under the law.”

    Well, actually he can. In the fourteen cases cited above, defendants were in fact charged. Their lawyers then tried to get them off under the Stand Your Ground law. I think it worked in three out of the 14 cases. (Forgot to count; it’s either 3 or 4) So it’s worth a try. But it’s a judge who makes the decision, not a cop. Also, there’s a state’s attorney working right now on the question of whether Zimmerman can be charged “under the law.” I wonder why she is wasting her time and the taxpayers’ money if all she has to do is ask YOU and you’ll tell her, “Don’t bother; Malisha knows Zimmerman can’t be charged under the law.”

    “Dead people don’t testify.”

    Ooooooooooh! Now something else is becoming a little more clear to me. The query has been raised on a couple of the comments on this thread: what if this was actually a premeditated murder? What if Zimmerman called the cops to set up the scene for him to go and kill somebody and it just happened that Martin’s number was up that night? What if it had nothing to do with how or whether Zimmerman interrogated him? What if Zimmerman just thought he could get away with it — as long as Martin was dead after the encounter was over — because DEAD PEOPLE DON’T TESTIFY.

    But forensic scientists DO testify. Voice-analyst engineers DO testify. Fight choreographers and physicists and physiologists DO testify. EMT personnel DO testify. Cops testify. Witnesses testify. Dead people can leave a lasting impression (“Help Help Help”) that will find its way into court.

    “You are part of the prosecutions case.”

    I would be honored to work for the prosecution in this case, for free, for as long as it took, and anyone at DOJ who wants me can have my work for free on this case. OPEN INVITATION.

    About me thinking before putting into words what my mind cannot comprehend, well, you got me there.

    Poem for the Homo Sapiens on the Ides of March (sorry late)

    Caesar, we hear, could not understand.
    What meaning could it have, words spoken?
    “Beware the Ides of March,” however —
    In her possession, what does she see?
    Thus the ruler of all the Empire
    could take nothing from the howling cries
    of the past being upon him now!

    And nothing was known until it came
    with its blood and its swords on the Ides
    and we still find nothing in the words
    tumbling through that hallucination
    we call HISTORY. Beware the Ides.

    And I have found words I cannot say.
    Round words that are only meant for play.
    Words that may come out only at dark,
    blue-blooded words, whispered words, ah, those!
    And I realize, after this barrage,
    that you and I, stranger, soothsayer,
    have never had a chance to speak, no.

    Therefore be brave,
    Speak to me,
    Even in the language of losses.


  416. Hi Malisha,

    I appreciate your civility

    Response to your #1) Just to clarify, I never asserted that Martin smashed his face with a can of iced tea, only stated that “if” that it was an unopened can of Arizona Ice Tea, it would be even more serious/dangerous.

    Regarding the pictures at the station house, ABC news has actually released today an enhanced video (they initially went exclusive with the video) and it just shows more of that frame that I posted earlier. I know you don’t care about the gashes being there or not, but since you brought it up… http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-video-shows-injury-george-zimmermans/story?id=16055412

    Regarding #2) Hey now, we don’t know if ALL 46 calls were for “black” men. I read a report that the 46 calls in 1 year was a typo and it was actually 46 calls in 11 years. Now before you jump all over me, here is the cite: http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-video-shows-injury-george-zimmermans/story?id=16055412.
    Also there had been a number of legitimate arrests in the past as a result of his 46 calls over 11 years. It’s not like he was in an epic fit of frustration at never having been effective.
    More than likely, his comment on the Aholes was a contextual response to the RECENT burglaries perpetrated by black males. Does that give him a right to automatically assume ALL black males are burglars? No, but put yourself in your own context. If your house had been robbed/burglared a couple of times in the last 2 weeks by black males that were see but got away, and then while watching TV one night you see a black male around your property? I don’t think anyone would call you a maniac or racist for thinking negative thoughts…given the context.

    Now here is where we diverge, you seem to be reading alot into Zimmerman emotional/psychological state…perhaps has much as you have claimed I am reading into other aspects of the case. I don’t think its a stretch to think that a ton of people see others

    Regarding #3) Is that assesment fair? Nothing more than circular logic?

    Here is a more fair point by point characterization of my view from you circular logic paragraph bulleted with letters. Please do show me where I fail logic 101 here : )

    Malisha A) Martin attacked Zimmerman and that’s how we know he was dangerous to Zimmerman
    Manny A) I don’t think there is any debate that Martin struck violently against Zimmerman that night at some point. Multiple eyewitnesses reported it, the police dept video shows the gashes on his head. Witnesses were observing Zimmerman from gunshot on and there is no reports of him hitting himself in the head to fake those injuries from even the eyewitnesses that want to see him hung.

    Malisha B) Zimmerman knew he was dangerous and that’s why Zimmerman was trying to stop him
    Manny B) Those head gashes are serious and they are dangerous. Anyone recieving such gashes would know, that the person doing the pummeling is dangerous. Have you ever had a criminal on top of you slamming your head into the ground? I actually have

    Malisha C) Therefore Martin was trying to kill Zimmerman
    Manny C) Well, I don’t know what Martin was trying to do for sure. But I do know that if he did drop Zimmerman to the ground with a punch (eyewitnesses place Martin on top of Zimmerman, pre-gunshot), then why didn’t Martin take that opportunity to run away? If instead he chose to get on top of a dazed Zimmerman and deliver the head gashes then I think a reasonable person would conclude Martin was acting maliciously at best when he didn’t really have to at that point, he could have run back to daddy’s girlfirend house and been safe. At best such a choice to get on top and slam his head into the ground would have been malevolent, at worst it would have been heated intent to kill him. Zimmerman says he feared for his life in these moments as his head was starting to break open, that seems believable I think to most people

    Malisha D) since Zimmerman shot Martin, it just SHOWS that Martin was trying to kill Zimmerman because
    otherwise WHY would Zimmerman have had to kill him?
    Manny D) Well, I don’t know about that…Martin’s behaviour (again multiple eyewitnesses and injuries on video) are what shows Martin (at least at some point) was at best acting malevolently towards Zimmerman, if not trying to kill him

    I don’t see how Zimmerman could have recieved those gashes on his head in any other situation than being on his back with an assailant on top of him slamming his head into the ground. That means Zimmerman was on the ground on his back…did he just fall down or did Martin drop him? Either way, Martin chose to get on top of him and delivered those gashes unless you think another person did it prior to witness observation that precludes Zimmerman faking them.

    That all being said, I am not sure what this means to you.
    Are you suggesting that if you had a prescient revelation that Martin was truly intent on actually killing Zimmerman by slamming his head into the ground, when he could have just run away (since we know Zimmerman was on his back), that would begin to support the Zimmerman side?

    I have gotten the impression from you in the past postings that you felt Martin was justified to loose the dogs of war on Zimmerman, even unto death, with no restraint at all due to the Office Friendly/Stranger Danger argument…and even with that, you still would want Zimmerman arrested and charged with manslaughter?

    Read my next post in response to your later post….

    Thanks
    Manny


  417. Hi Malisha

    Regarding your post to Anon Yours

    Malisha: Yes, my point exactly. ONLY Martin fits into the “coverage” of the SYG law, while Zimmerman does NOT. Martin, if he actually jumped, beat, threatened, pummeled, bruised, brutalized [etc. etc. blah blah blah]ed Zimmerman, was within his rights under Florida law!
    Zimmerman on the other hand gave up his right to “stand his ground” when he exited from his vehicle and followed Martin, whether he questioned him nicely or not, whether he got a beating or not, etc. etc. blah blah blah.

    Manny:
    This whole assertion hinges on Zimmerman not only provably exiting his vehicle, but ALSO following Martin to completion

    However, this is a great example of things not lining up

    I am not asserting all of these as eternal facts, but that these are all certainly reasonable and some are essentially defacto

    1) Zimmerman did say to 911’s query that he was starting to follow, but then immediately said “OK” as if to signal assent that he was no longer following him when told he didn’t need to. The wind also stopped creating distortion not long after this which seems to support if nothing else a change in direction from the previous course…now. Before you jump all over me for thinking the above…

    what did he do next? Remember on the 911 call he didn’t know the exact building/apt/condo number where he was on the grounds, his attorney has stated that he went to look at the number of a nearby building to relay to the police enroute

    Then when he was returning to his vehicle, Zimmerman claims he was confronted by Martin. He lost sight of him after ceasing to follow, per dispatch

    Point is Zimmerman exiting his vehicle at first is not necessarily a dead ringer that he exited AND completed “seeking out” Martin to completion, even if he started to do that and then changed his mind and destination/goal in walking out of his vehicle or once out of his vehicle and speaking with dispatch

    So again, before you jump all over me, I am not asserting facts, but these will certainly cast a reasonable doubt in a reasonable person’s mind, say at a Grand Jury. I would think that you would also see the squishyness here, but I think because there is such unbridled hate for Zimmerman (just based on all the emotional/psychological imputations that have been asserted about him) that it seems to make sense to those people that such a “poor sample of humanity” would do the exact thing needed to blow away a hypothetical SYG defense…Leave his vehicle AND follow Martin to completion, not just start to and then think better of it after dispatch suggest he not. I don’t think it’s fair to insinuate so many negative things about Zimmerman’s mental state when so many people have gone on record, that actually knew him (ahem), assert he was a good neighbor who offered to help others and look out for the best interests of his own neighbors, for what looks to be 11 years based on the 46 911 call over that time. Apparently he was a mentor also to underprivileged youth, how many Zimmerman haters take time to mentor other people…again point is this is no Ted Bundy, David Koresh, or Napoleon Dynamite

    We just don’t know for sure if Zimmerman actually followed Martin to completion as Martin’s supporters declare as certain fact and we just don’t know for sure if Zimmerman was actually just looking for an address and returning to his car when Martin attacked him as Zimmerman’s supporters declares as certain fact

    So if Zimmerman was just looking at a building number or continuing his watch patrol on foot, but not seeking out Martin, and then Martin confronted Zimmerman at some point, the whole thing gets murky on the context and your original assertion of SYG not applying to Zimmerman, let alone applying to Martin if he was still alive

    However, I disagree with that assertion for wholly other reasons than above…
    1) With Martin not being on “his premises”, but actually on someone else’s private property, I don’t see how SYG could ever apply to Martin…just reading the statute and if he wasn’t dead of course
    2) I have some suspicion that a grand jury would side with Zimmerman if Zimmerman did nothing violent to Martin, but Martin chose to attack Zimmerman and was on top of him as witnesses claim when Martin had the option to leave once Zimmerman was on his back. Zimmerman didn’t even have an option to retreat once set upon and pinned underneath Martin, again as eye witnesses corroborate

    Thanks
    manny


  418. Apologies – Apparently my cite for the 46 calls over 11 (not 1) years didn’t quite play well with my copy/paste as the previous cite was duped

    Here it is in the first “Update” section that the top:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/trayvon-martins-killer-was-looking-for-trouble-and-found-it/254815/

    This is the excerpt specifically:

    Update 5:20 p.m. We’ve just learned from the Sanford Police that there is evidently a typo on the first page of the neighborhood watch calls report they provided. The date range of Zimmerman’s calls, they say, evidently is 2001-2012, not 2011-2012, which means his 46 calls came over a 10- to 11-year period — roughly four calls per year — and not four calls per month as the initial police statistics revealed…


  419. Manny Orlo, your recitation of allegations, attributed to witnesses and suppositions, and information provided by the police who have now admitted to several “mistakes” and the chief of whom has slunk away under a cloud does not make for a proper weighing of evidence because it is NOT evidence. Facts in evidence must be PUT into evidence first. The rational and normal thing for the cops and prosecutor to have done on Feb. 26, 2012 was to take Zimmerman to the hospital (first) under guard and then, if and when the hospital discharged him, to follow all the careful procedures they were supposed to follow in a situation like this, which is NOT what they did, and STILL they are not following procedures. They resisted giving up the tape of the Zimmerman pre-shooting call and the mayor had to force them to give it up, and it was an ear-full. There is nothing wrong with your defending Zimmerman vigorously, GO TO, but please think this out: if we trust our system, and if there is at this point no complete understanding of the facts, then you use only those facts that are undisputed, and based on that, you act in accordance with the law.

    Undisputed facts are not very difficult in this case:

    1. Martin was unarmed and had no motive to hurt or kill Zimmerman;

    2. Zimmerman was armed and called the police giving them a description of Martin that clearly showed that Zimmerman harbored animus toward the pedestrian (“These assholes always get away” “Shit, he’s running”) (“Are you following him?” — “Yeah.”)

    3. Zimmerman then killed Martin.

    4. Zimmerman THEN said it was self-defense.

    Well, excuse me, WHO WOULDN’T?

    The only piece of the above “facts that are admitted” that is in doubt is Zimmerman’s own self-serving claim of self-defense. Did he have motive to lie?

    Chris Sevino, the cop interviewing Zimmerman, said he did not believe Zimmerman’s version of the events. Here’s a COP — with experience investigating crimes — more experience than either you or I have (presumably, since you have not identified yourself as a licensed investigator).

    Manny Orlo, if you put all these things together, and then allow yourself — Manny Orlo, ALLOW YOURSELF to think about how someone like me, or like [Jeez, I dunno, 75% of Americans polled] could conclude that Zimmerman should have been arrested — let yourself just THINK it, Manny.

    Then let me say, go ahead and defend Zimmerman. That’s your perfect right. You know, there WERE Jews (not a whole lot of them, granted) who opposed the death sentence for Adolph Eichmann. And I met a man, a dear dear man who was in his late 80s at the time, who had actually met Eichmann and who had arranged the transport of 40,000 young Jews out of Nazi Europe during the Holocaust, a Jewish man whose wife had converted TO JUDAISM to marry him, at a time when that was helluva dangerous, and this man was the leader of one of the underground units during WWII, and this man actually let himself think about how Eichmann should not have perhaps been executed. But defend Zimmerman, that’s OK. Damn, our Constitution says that if Zimmerman were to be arrested TODAY he would have to have the best defense possible s his rights as a defendant were preserved.

    ALL of that is OK. But let yourself think what we others — we 75% others (and usually I find myself thinking with the minority so this time I am surprised to find myself here!) think.

    You’ve been working hard on your posts. If Zimmerman is charged (and, of course, if he doesn’t disappear, which I expect he will), you can offer them to the defense team.

    Sincerely,


  420. Hi Malisha –

    On your asserted undisputed fact #1 you said Martin had not motive to hurt or kill Zimmerman, but not sure that really a fact

    I do admit that neither Zimmerman or Martin “initially” had a motive to specifically hurt each each other….before they saw each other in context

    However, the very act of Zimmerman watching Martin “may” have enflamed motive in Martin, just as you declare that Zimmerman was enflamed by seeing Martin.

    On your asserted undisputed fact #2…this is speculation on your part. You need more data points to make a call that Zimmerman has a basically prejudiced attitude or governing spirit considering you never met the man and it all hangs on a few phrases? Would you really want every phrase you have ever uttered under duress cherry picked and used to define you?
    You never answered my question about how would feel in YOUR OWN context if your house/neighbors were robbed multiple times in the last 14 days by black males and then on the 15th day you see a black male walking about looking at houses? What might you say/think in fear and anger? Does that make you a maniac or a sociopath or a poor human?
    I think a little more understanding is warranted here, GIVEN THE TEMPORAL CONTEXT of recent burglaries. That to me suggests he wasn’t some lifelong racist bigot, but a concerned citizen living in an area during a very real and repeated crime wave.

    Sure, I agree with your #3, and #4 asserted facts

    I am not sure what criteria you are using for undisputed facts. Of course nothing is really and undisputed fact, but if its reported by the police report report, documented in a video, documented in audio, and/or corroborated by multiple eyewitnesses, and corroborates with the rest of the body of data, that about as good as it gets “this side” of a trial where there is formally adjudicated evidence.

    Based on that, I would add these: (these all fit into the gap between your #2 and #3

    #5 Zimmerman was on his back while Martin was still alive
    #6 Martin could have run away, but chose to instead get on top of Zimmerman
    #7 Zimmerman’s head was unnecessarily slammed into the ground causing serious injury by Martin
    #8 Tracey Martin, when first hearing the audio tape of the person crying for help went on record saying, “That is not my son’s voice”

    #9 People underestimate how much of a wussy a grown man can sound like when he is being beaten…okay this ones a tease

    I would appreciate to know your reaction to some of the questions I posed in the previous two posts. Also what you think of my #5-#8 assertions

    Thanks
    Manny


  421. OK, Manny, we have a dialog now, although I don’t have time to deal with all the disputes you bring up, but on your specific points 5 through 8:

    You say:

    #5 Zimmerman was on his back while Martin was still alive

    Oh I would dispute this fact until I had ALL the evidence in, including forensics on Zimmerman’s clothing from that night (before laundering), cross-examination of any witness(es) who claimed to have seen that, etc. It is not an undisputed fact. No photographic or videotaped evidence of it. See, we DO have an audiotape of his call to the police. We don’t have a videotape of him on his back. This is an allegation, not an undisputed fact.

    #6 Martin could have run away, but chose to instead get on top of Zimmerman

    I do not agree with this allegation even one percent, Manny. Not at all. You’re pointing out how much I don’t know Zimmerman’s mind; look how much you don’t know Martin’s! I neither “know” that Martin “could have run away” nor do I “know” that he “chose to instead get on top of Zimmerman.” I dispute this allegation all the way; I don’t even give it a 1% chance of being accurate OR being proven in a court of law by competent evidence.

    #7 Zimmerman’s head was unnecessarily slammed into the ground causing serious injury by Martin

    Nope, that I would dispute, and put Zimmerman to his proof. Remember, the night of Feb. 26, 2012 he was FREE after the interview. He could have had medical treatment that night confirming any of his later-alleged injuries. There would be hospital reports — from that local ER where they offered to take him when the first ambulance came to get the body of his victim and there was a chance for him to ride in a second ambulance to get his injuries documented and treated. No, I don’t agree this is an undisputed fact; to me this is a very VERY shaky and perhaps even unprovable allegation.

    #8 Tracey Martin, when first hearing the audio tape of the person crying for help went on record saying, “That is not my son’s voice”

    I don’t agree with that either. I’d possibly begin to believe it if I heard an audiotape of him saying it, but that wouldn’t have much probative value for me now anyway, because I think if I heard my own son yelping out like that, I wouldn’t recognize his voice. I really believe that, Manny Orlo. Have you ever heard YOUR OWN VOICE when you were in mortal fear for your life? I only once ever heard my voice when I was in a grave situation (not actual fear of death but grave) and it sounded like a wounded calf and the sound itself creeped ME OUT!

    #9 People underestimate how much of a wussy a grown man can sound like when he is being beaten…okay this ones a tease

    I wouldn’t even use the word “wussy” here, Manny. Seriously. That’s over a line, you know? But I believe the voice on the tape is not Zimmerman’s, based on that voice analysis stuff that’s found on another one of Professor Turley’s blogs. What Trayvon Martin’s father SAID, when he wasn’t THERE at the time doesn’t make “evidence” for me, either.

    I would appreciate to know your reaction to some of the questions I posed in the previous two posts. Also what you think of my #5-#8 assertions

    I don’t have time for the other stuff right now, OK? But I think you can see where I’m coming from.

    Thanks.


  422. Manny, you said something intriguing about motive. You said that neither man had a motive before they saw each other — out of context. That presumes you think Martin had a motive to hurt Zimmerman at some point after he saw him — IN that context.

    Right, right.

    Zimmerman saw Martin first. IN a context.

    Then Martin saw Zimmerman. IN a context.

    Yes, right.

    NOW, I think this is pay dirt in a sense, this here. I think we are onto something. No time now to take it further. But let’s put it down for the moment and revisit this C*O*N*T*E*X*T

    And we have to be very careful with this.


  423. Pre-emptive strike on the issue of the brand new “terrible gash” pictures on Zimmerman’s head.

    Is there a physiologist in the house? Hello Hello!

    Or maybe a Broadway “fight choreographer”?

    To get criss-cross gashes on the place, on Zimmerman’s head, where these new marks appear, he would not be having his head bashed into the concrete as he lay on his back with a kid on top of him. He would have to be ON that part of his head with his body making approximately a 45% angle (arching his back a whole lot!) like a fulcrum.

    That thing is a hoot. It does pose some interesting questions though…

    NOT ONE of those interesting questions in my opinion, is whether it matters that he was bashed IF HE WAS bashed. It wouldn’t matter in the least, since Trayvon Martin had a right to use deadly force to stand his ground.


  424. Back to “context” and who had animosity toward whom on the evening of Feb. 26, 2012.

    The context of GZ’s attitude toward TM is obvious, because we have his comments on audiotape. He is suspicious and hostile. The further context (or “backstory” if you will) is that GZ is kinda oversensitive about his role as a person who can direct what should be done in the world, especially to/about inferior individuals who are “suspicious” or who have “something wrong” with them. The information is that he basically has “lost it” at a party where he was meant to protect folks and instead violently attacked someone; he has fronted off a real cop in the mist of performing his duties; he has involved himself offensively and defensively in domestic violence; he has a history of needing anger management skills. He has an estranged brother and grew up in a very “strict” household. He is concerned about burglary and about people who may not be good people “getting away.”

    The context of TM’s attitude toward GZ can only be guessed at, but we can make educated guesses. My first guess is that TM would be suspicious of any male in a car who started slowing down to watch and follow him. I would too, of course. My second guess is that TM would be scared of any white man who seemed to be taking too much of an interest in his (TM’s) whereabouts, because any Black kid who can read and watch TV does know, by age 17, that there still are skin-head racists running around who WOULD like a notch on their guns. And GZ has a pretty close haircut! The context of TM being confronted, verbally or any other whichway, is pretty clear, and it does NOT include the context of “kid responding to cop” because GZ is not in a squad car and GZ has no uniform on.

    SO I would guess that GZ was hostile and rattled and TM was scared and rattled. Under those circumstances, the application of any “stand your ground” principles become such a technical balancing act that only a judge and jury, and possibly appeals court bench and possibly federal judge and then federal bench and even US Supreme Court would have to untangle the possibiities. But of course, no real fear of that happening unless Zimmerman is charged with a crime.


  425. UNLESS TRAYON MARTIN’S LIFE INTEREST WAS TAKEN WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.

    42 USC 1981 – 1988

    42 USC 1981 – 1988

    HELLO HELLO, IS THERE A LAWYER IN THE HOUSE?


  426. How soon after the interview were the police reports filed? which cop filed first? Which second? Which third?

    When did the police correctly identify the body as Trayvon Martin? When was Martin’s father notified of the death?


  427. The police report filed by Officer Ayala in this case indicates that the charge WOULD have been Florida 782.11, manslaughter by a person accidentally killing another “negligently” and “unneccessarily” while the VICTIM was involved in the commission of a FELONY. This does NOT, according to the case law, apply to any crime the victim might have been committing against the negligent homicider himself, by the way. This was designed to protect real cops who accidentally kill real criminals caught in the act!

    The police were therefore presuming Trayvon Martin was in the process of committing a felony? Did they ever give up that presumption? Have they yet? What particular felony? Where’s the evidence?


  428. on 1, April 8, 2012 at 11:44 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    As usual I posted too many hyperlinks and got censored by moderator. So here again I’ll have to break my post up into parts so you can read it NOW:
    ———————————————————–

    OK folks 48+ hours until Zimmerman’s fate will start to be decided… maybe… Everybody sit close to your TV’s this Tuesday to see how his GJH goes. I’m almost sure that most of them will be quick and it is obvious there is no case for SYG and that Detective Serino’s original arrest was appropriate and should be allowed to re-arrest him.

    @Manny: Your obviously biased posting regarding what Andy Cohen said at http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/trayvon-martins-killer-was-looking-for-trouble-and-found-it/254815/ is obviously wrong when you read it carefully. SPD only made a mistake with the overall date range NOT the 46 calls George made in Feb 2012 to 911 AND the routine non-emergency line. He made 49 since August of 2011 – not all 911. I think only the 911 calls were audio recorded (his lawyer leaves this part out). Therefore over a 11 year period he made a helluva’ a lot more calls than 46 (or 49). Andy’s math and logic is defective – typical for Conservative types I think (they excel at “creative” math). Also the RATL community was not even totally finished until 2008. George wasn’t even living there in 2001. Also there are NO pine trees (cones) at RATL at the corner of Twin Trees and Retreat. There are no traffic cones as the roads are only 4 years old and there is no security guards to put them up! There is NO neighborhood watch. President O’Brien told George to stop at the last meeting. The older guy gave it up much earlier as George made everything too “weird” with his gun, his tacitly racist flyers & mailers, and all.

    @Malisha: Your desire to work for DoJ would be totally welcome… (smart people always welcome). However, you have to take the FCS exam for the desired posting (if required). If you pass (and you get a preference for past military service) then you can post for that DoJ job. Some Federal jobs do not require an exam. *Some* agencies actively recruit at colleges (worldwide). However, the HR interviewing skills for “some” that do that can be the most confusing interview of your life. Think very hard about a career with “them”. You could regret it later. It’s NOT how Hollywood depicts it.

    However, the FBI has been actively recruiting on Radio and TV lately. You might think about checking them out too. Here is the DoJ job website: doj-usajobs-gov Here is the FBI job site: fbijobs-gov (change dashes to dots). You’d make a good Operational Research Analyst. Your reports and situational analysis are unambiguous, clear, detailed and concise. I was certainly stymied that you were not an Angela Davis look-alike (LOL)

    When was Tracey Martin advised of Trayvon’s death? 48 hours later. Why so long? Because evidently Trayvon did not have his Miami-Dade student ID card on him and was not a Florida driver. Also Tracey filed a missing person’s report but did not hear what was going on in the back yard only 4-5 houses down on Sunday 26-Feb around 19:30 EST hours. But they were watching the Orlando NBA All Stars game on TV. Pitbull was singing during halftime. Maybe the TV was up too loud? I personally would have it on mute (LOL).

    FYI – An Arizona Ice Tea can is made of very thin recycled aluminium. It can not be used as a blunt-force-trauma weapon (deliberately designed that way by AriZona Beverages USA to avoid civil litigation). Even an Arizona glass bottle won’t work as it’s too small and can’t be easily broken into shards like beer bottles. Whatever it was is George’s Kel-Tec pistol would have prevented any such alleged aggression by Trayvon. This is the salient reason why Detective Serino arrested George at the site – Georges’s story was simply “retarded” and remains so. He wasn’t ordered to release him O.R. until AFTER he was processed at HQ.

    Page 1 (continued)


  429. on 1, April 8, 2012 at 11:58 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    (Page 2 – Continued)

    The FBI (SAC) will probably be Steven E. Ibison* per Special Agent Dave Couvertier, Tampa Div. However, FBI is NOT investigating SPD. They are only working under this premise:

    “With all federal civil rights crimes, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that [George] acted intentionally and with the specific intent to do something which the law forbids – the highest level of intent in criminal law. Negligence, recklessness, mistakes and accidents [by George] are not prosecutable under the federal criminal civil rights laws.” (Brackets added by me)

    *Steve is an ex-cop from TX. Graduated Quantico in 1988.
    Bio: http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/steven-e.-ibison-named-sac-in-tampa

    FYI – The newly enhanced photo of the back of George’s head at the SPD Sally-Port is BOGUS! As any intelligence analyst can tell you when you crunch the pixels into a tighter frame eliminating noise and other video artifacts you only increase the pre-existing structure anomalies on his head. IOW – his random hair grain can now be compressed into a laceration he DOESN’T actually have.

    So you can find whatever you want. It’s just how badly do you want it? Whatever his injuries where it is OBVIOUS they were not life-threatening – hence SYG is null and void for him. It will probably be shown that George reacted lethally in a fit of rage for being pushed away by Trayvon and tripped on his own feet and fell backward. His ex-partner said this is typical egotistical reaction to what he views as disrespect for his self-delusional “importance”.


  430. on 1, April 9, 2012 at 12:25 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Regarding who was screaming HELP HELP HELP? Audio Analysts say it wasn’t George, Tracey Martin said it wasn’t Trayvon (even now his wife got him to change that now – for whatever reason).

    IMO it was Selma Mora. Why do I say that? Because Selma was very distraught as she was practically standing right there when George pulled the trigger. It was too dark to see too much detail but she was very traumatized by the incident. However, her room mate, Mary Cutcher, speaks of a “child WHIMPERING” but never mentions the HELP HELP HELP part. Tim (aka John) across the yard hears HELP HELP HELP but does he really know who was saying it while running upstairs? He says it was George but he really is clueless. Selma’s voice is deep for a woman and is Hispanic. She is very emotional. The 911 could have been a mix of Trayvon’s “whimpering” and Selma’s shouts to make George stand-down.

    The SPD does not want to believe Mary nor Selma’s account as it doesn’t fit the scenario they want to believe. I’m sure Agent Ibison is taking a different approach to this and is taking a keen interest in what these two woman witnessed. It will probably be the key testimony that will seal George’s fate. They say George was *tampering* with evidence too. They probably already received a subpoena for this Tuesday. George too.

    BTW – Daddy’s house in Lake Mary is very common and not that expensive. I wonder how much he is actually worth. Maybe he has other homes in USA?


  431. Wow, thanks for all the detail, Son of Thunder!

    About working for the feds, I appreciate your info and vote of confidence but I have to say that my offer was simply a response to somebody’s misguided attempt to insult me by saying I should work for the prosecution. Ordinarily, I’m defense-oriented and I have never really wanted or sought government work anyway. But I’m going to print out and frame your paragraph!

    It occurred to me that the “head wound picture” was just ridiculous when I saw it, but I did not have enough data to figure out why. It was just one of those intuitive things — and I tend not to rely too heavily on intuition unless I’m taking care of children (when it can be the ONLY thing upon which to rely). Furthermore, I saw someone actually display, for a broadcast journalist, the way he edited the video to make things jump out or “pale” on the frame of Zimmerman’s head, and I thought, “If he keeps at it, he can easily get a detailed depiction of the Virgin Mary on the policeman’s forehead, and then we will KNOW that this is a sign and wonder!”

    As far as the voices are concerned, the only information that I think is relevant is that the “Help Help” voice is NOT ZIMMERMAN’S because the screaming of “help help” by any person could NOT lead to valuable evidence of any crime committed by anyone. A perp could scream “help help” while committing a crime; a victim could scream “help help” while being criminally victimized, and a bystander could scream “help help” for any or NO reason, as well. But the fact that the voice is not Zimmerman’s is independent evidence of two things, IMO: (a) Zimmerman’s lack of credibility, which proper police investigators would have presumed anyway, on February 26, 2012, considering the circumstances; and (b) police collusion with Zimmerman in cooking up a cover story to avoid dealing with this crime as they would deal with any other crime IF committed by a perp whose victim had a life interest in due process and equal protection of law.

    As a sign of lack of credibility, the non-Zimmerman origin of the voice on the 911 tape is very significant.

    Since the US Supreme Court has now come down with the holding that lying under oath to a grand jury is not actionable, I sure hope the grand jury in Florida is not as corrupt as the police and prosecuters have been so far. And as far as the federal investigation goes, I don’t think the value of that is to charge Zimmerman with a federal offense, but I hope the value of that is to look carefully at the police and prosecutor (and possibly others) for criminal violations of the civil rights of several parties under 42 USC 1981.

    Zimmerman Senior was a magistrate judge. His wife has been repeatedly described as “of Peruvian descent” which means, approximately, nothing. I think the designation of Zimmerman as “Hispanic” or “Latino” is hilarious and is among the many ridiculous things that have distracted so many for so long in this essentially simple case. But I do know something abotu Magistrate Judges in Virginia: they can be used by people who need to draw warrants against other people for strictly personal reasons to accomplish civil goals. They WORK. I personally know of a case where a Virginia Magistrate Judge issued a warrant at 10:00 pm one night because the complaining witness had tried five times with police and prosecutors to get a warrant drawn, and nobody would do his bidding. He then got a single policeman (whom he had met at a political meeting, while off-duty) to take him in to see the Magsitrate, who accepted — without paperwork — a completely ridiculous, obviously untrue, fairy tale, and the Magistrate drew a felony warrant that night, rather than telling him that since it was not an emergency he should return the next day during office hours. It appears that the job of “Magistrate Judge” in Virginia may just be one of those jobs that wannabes get, where they exercise power out of all proportion to their competence, but where they are immune from consequences of their perhaps ill-considered actions.


  432. on 1, April 9, 2012 at 12:49 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Another excellent posting… Are you sure you don’t want to try out FBI? If your present income is more than $50-60K then I wouldn’t consider it. But with your apparent skill-sets you could come in at entry-level and make at least that amount or more. You would have to relocate to VA for awhile for BT and then when assignments come up (if you graduate) you could be assigned to Tampa Div and you could get Orlando white-collar, hate crimes, gang-bangers, and drug dealers (i.e. fun is? LOL). And you get to get a gun! FBI (or fee-bee as *some* like to call them – term of endearment) is a big gun culture. I would imagine that it may be a H&K or something of that ‘caliber’. However, if you want to go the I.T. route like the character Penelope Garcia (actress – Kirsten Vangsness) in that TV series CRIMINAL MINDS about the very real FBI B.A.U., there is that route too. Fee-bee needs a lot of help with computer sciences as they still use IBM and Microsoft Products. I know I know MACs got hacked last week! (LOL)

    You’d make an excellent Penelope! However, she’s pro-Linux.

    FYI – Zimmerman Sr was a VA SUPREME COURT magistrate. I think he did state related stuff but he may have done stuff (favors?) for other VA federal denizens on the side or down/low or something like that.He got his Peruvian wife Gladys a court clerk job with him. How he got her in under the I.C.E. radar is a mystery to me (not really). What he did for the military IS a bona-fide mystery to me though. Georgie-boy (or Jorge pronounced whore-gay or is it whore-hey) is 3/4 Caucasian and 1/4 Latino. Can you spell HATE CRIME?


  433. on 1, April 9, 2012 at 12:56 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – In my state (of confusion) they are trying to pass a bill today that allows Federal Agents to have state’s authority to act as a “Peace Officer” with power’s of arrest in NON-Federal jurisdiction. Now this is the state of Skull & Bones, George W. Bush, Prescott Bush, L. Paul Bremer, and other corruption poster boys. I don’t know if you smell it but something “interesting” is afoot. My state is very connected to activities in DC and VA (basically at the hip). Too many secrets!


  434. Trayvon Martin: Police department shut down to public (with video)

    By Rene Stutzman and Bianca Prieto, Orlando Sentinel

    1:03 p.m. EDT, April 9, 2012

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-trayvon-martin-civil-disobedience-20120409,0,2396968.story


  435. SonofThunderBoanerges, if you don’t mind my question: what is your profession? You know more than most people know about a variety of subjects — it (pleasantly) surprises me.


  436. SonofThunder — is that state Maryland where they’re trying to “unterdeputize” feds? Do you have a bill number for that? Who brought that bill to the Legislature, do you know?


  437. You know, I don’t really understand why a hate crime is worse than, say, a love crime or a random “I feel like it today” crime. I think that a crime that doesn’t end in death is less serious than a crime that DOES. But other than that, what’s the difference if Zimmerman is a racist or not? If he killed Trayvon Martin with a heart full of narcissistic rage or with a mind full of learned racism, it wouldn’t make a difference to the cops on 2/26/2012. THEY aren’t forensic psychiatrists. They did know, however, that there was probable cause to arrest Zimmerman for one or another degree of homicide, commonly called “murder.” THEY seem to have exhibited racism; THEY are the ones who are most suspect, IMO. And Wolfinger leads the list.

    The Constitution says that we should not be deprived of “life, liberty or property” without due process. International law refers, instead, to “life, liberty and security of person.” That is a much more humane construct. Defending a person’s right to be secure in his own person is, IMO, more important than defending his property. But the framers of our Constitution were property-owners! And they owned people, too! So now look at our law: we litigate (in the civil courts) over property, and property INTERESTS; we litigate (in the criminal courts) over liberty, and liberty INTERESTS. We litigate over life ONLY in the criminal courts (capital cases) and in the civil courts in “wrongful death” actions. But where do we litigate over the LIFE INTEREST? It is absent from our law; it is not there!

    I say that Trayvon Martin had a LIFE INTEREST in being able to walk down the street with his tea and his skittles and his cell phone and his hoodie and, yes, his attitude. His LIFE INTEREST in being allowed to do that was taken shortly before his whole LIFE was taken! But why was his LIFE INTEREST taken first? That is where the “hate” comes into “hate crime.”

    If we don’t at least TRY to defend our neighbors’ life interests, we will ultimately never be able to defend our own lives. It is almost too late.


  438. I see the special prosecutor in the Zimmerman case is not taking it to the Grand Jury. I have been looking into Florida law and see that it takes a GJ indictment to go for First Degree Murder, which can put the death penalty on the table. A straight up indictment can suffice for anything less, such as second degree murder or lesser charges. An arrest is expected soon. Zimmerman says he will surrender voluntarily if a warrent is issued. Max penalty for charges less than first degree murder can range anywhere from five years on the low end for manslaughter or aggrvated assault, up to life. That is quite a range of sentence options.

    I can hardly wait to see what the FBI forensic audio lab uncovers.


  439. OS,

    I think that’s appropriate. There is nothing indicating premediation here.


  440. OS:

    I’m not aware of many prosecutors who would avoid a Grand Jury in an emotionally charged case without bringing charges. Here it looks like manslaughter is the best the putative defendant can hope for under the circumstances.


  441. Here’s a good summary of Florida law on the topic from the FLASC in the 2010 case of Florida v. Steven Montgomery:

    We conclude that under Florida law, the crime of manslaughter by act does not require that the State prove that the defendant intended to kill the victim. Relevant to our conclusion is the role of intent in cases of first-degree and second degree murder, of which manslaughter is a necessarily lesser included offense. In order to establish first-degree premeditated murder, proof of the defendant‘s intent
    to kill the victim is required. In fact, not only must a jury find that the defendant intended to kill the victim, it must find that the defendant did so with premeditation—a heightened level of intent. Section 782.04(1)(a), Florida Statutes (2005), defines first-degree premeditated murder as ―[t]he unlawful killing of a human being‖ that is ―perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being.‖ (Emphasis added.)

    The element of premeditation distinguishes first-degree from second-degree murder. Second-degree murder is an unlawful killing that is ―perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life . . . without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual.‖ § 782.04(2), Fla. Stat. (2005). Conduct that is ―imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind‖ is characterized by ―an act or series of acts that: (1) a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and (2) is done from ill will,hatred, spite or an evil intent, and (3) is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.‖ Bellamy v. State, 977 So. 2d 682, 683 (Fla. 2d DCA 2008) (quoting Duckett v. State, 686 So. 2d 662, 663 (Fla. 2d DCA 1996)).

    Manslaughter, a lesser included offense of both first-degree and second degree murder, is defined as ―[t]he killing of a human being by the act,
    procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification . . . in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder.‖

    § 782.07(1), Fla. Stat. (2005). Section 782.07(1) states as follows:
    (1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement,
    or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification
    according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which
    such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according
    to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the
    second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083,
    or s. 775.084. – § 782.07(1), Fla. Stat. (2005).

    While section 782.07(1) establishes three forms of manslaughter (by act, by procurement, or by culpable negligence), our present focus is on the crime of manslaughter by act. We observe that the statute does not impose a requirement that the defendant intend to kill the victim. Instead, it plainly provides that where one commits an act that results in death, and such an act is not lawfully justified or excusable, it is manslaughter.

    Although in some cases of manslaughter by act it may be inferred from the facts that the defendant intended to kill the victim, to impose such a requirement on a finding of manslaughter by act would blur the distinction between first-degree murder and manslaughter. Moreover, it would impose a more stringent finding of intent upon manslaughter than upon second-degree murder, which, like manslaughter, does not require proof that the defendant intended to kill the victim.

    Thus, we conclude that under Florida law, the crime of manslaughter by act does not require proof that the defendant intended to kill the victim.


  442. Thanks for the summary Mespo.


  443. I think it is very wise not to involve a grand jury in this case because it is only needed for first-degree murder, and nobody wants a first-degree murder charge in this case, neither the 75% nor the 25%! The manslaughter charge the cops originally wrote on the form they failed to use on 2/26/2012, however, was completely inapplicable – FL 782.11 which was designed for cops who accidentally killed while apprehending criminals. That one required that the victim be in the midst of the commission of a felony when killed! This does, however, bring up the recent (several years back) struggle we anti-death-sentence folks waged to try to save Martin Grossman who had no intent to kill his victim when, at the age of 19, and with an intelligence that I think was measured somewhere around 72 or so, he killed a parks and recreation officer while trying to prevent her from phoning in a violation report on him; he was afraid, clumsy and “non-compos” and he killed her while trying to pull HER gun away from her inside her squad car. He was convicted of premeditated murder in a trial in which, let us say, his defense attorney was minimally competent. And in the penalty phase, his enhancements came from juvenile misbehavior including offenses in which he was interviewed with neither parent nor counsel present. Looking at this case, and that case (where race was not involved on either side) and understanding how police, prosecutors and judges regard behavior, I am discouraged. The good news, however, is that taking first-degree murder off the table will make it possible to do something RATIONAL in this case, which is sorely needed.

    I was imagining what would happen if a “no-bill” came down after a grand jury proceeding that was suspicious for taint, and I was thinking, “Well, we don’t need Florida in this country anyway.”

    I was imagining what would happen if a first-degree bill came down after a grand jury proceeding that was suspicious for taint, and I was thinking, “Well, we don’t need Florida in this country anyway.”

    And imagine — a first-degree case with the death sentence on the table? As Roseanne Rosanadanna used to say: Nevermind!

    What I am really interested in now is the response of the DOJ to the charges that the police and prosecutor (at least) deliberately mishandled the case from the beginning. Even “we don’t need you to do that” is suspect, because it should have been: “Mr. Zimmerman, do not follow that person, please return to your car and wait for the officers to arrive.” That would have been a lawful order. Or, “Mr. Zimmerman, following that person is against Florida law,” would have been better. “We don’t need you to do that” was a much different order than I believe a young noticeably African American person would have heard if he had phoned in his complaint that there was a white man walking around outside after 7 p.m. on 2/26/2012.


  444. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 8:49 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – As Otteray Scribe already knows I am a Operational Research Analyst from Connecticut. Here is the Bill on setting up US Secret Service agents and other Federal Agents as CT “Peace Officers” – http://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/rpt/2010-R-0042.htm – This new law totally baffles me.

    I work for private industry (i.e. insurance, etc.) and have done consultant/contractor work for FBI (Trap Line) et. al. as a licensed investigator. I am no longer the later. I’m freelance now. I make a great “go to guy” as I have so many “friends in low places” and *other* sources. I excel in a technique known as OSINT in the community.

    If you need a Hollywood analogy for me just think of actor Jack Black in the movie “Enemy of the State” only I am freelance (private industry) and never worked for FeeBee, Puzzle Palace, nor Criminals In America. I came close but I don’t play well with others. Something about “ambivalence toward authority” – much like how Trayvon reacted to George’s pseudo-authority.

    More info on Georgie-Boy – Has his own website now. I haven’t scanned it yet. I’d be interested in any input on people’s observations on his thoughts there. Looks like the FL Special Prosecutor Angela Corey (the Shark or is it Barracuda?) will go after GZ on her own. She has an AMAZING track record with ripping SYG phonies a new one. Recently a white guy blasted a black guy during road-rage and he claimed SYG. He is (or will be) doing MAJOR time in Florida DOC.

    George is really LAWYERING up big-time. I think they will fire that moron who runs away from MSNBC TV interviews. Daddy will probably get that guy he used from the George vs. SPD cop case back in 2005? He’s taking up a collection from his NRA friends and other right-wing nut cases. NRA has already sent in $10k. I think the New Black Panthers also will put up $10k but not to GZ (LOL).


  445. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 10:24 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Otteray Scribe – Albeit certain people in the I.C. use “home-grown” audio analysis tools, some folks like the Japanese stuff for quick & dirty audio work. Like Sound Forge Pro 10 by Sony. You can download a free trial demo here:

    http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/download/trials/soundforge

    It used to be called “Sonic Foundry”.

    I ALLEGE that a certain federal agency in VA used SFPRO to assist SecState Colin Powell at the UN to help make those fake audio recordings re:WMD. If your psycholinguistic skills are pretty good you IMO can do what you want to do with SFPRO’s Spectrum Analysis tool.

    You can find 26Feb2012 SPD 911 audio just about anywhere on internet today. Also you can get Selma Mora and Mary Cuthcher’s exemplars from YouTube. I think both use the word “help”. Also John or “Tim”‘s voice can be heard on Fox or Youtube. He uses the word “help” too.

    I’d really like to see what you (or any one else who wants to dabble in audio analysis) come up with.


  446. Son of Thunder, thanks once again.

    Your expertise is fascinating to me; how does one read a case that you have been involved in — are any of them available on-line?


  447. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 3:06 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Yes… One very big one. But you know what “they” say. I could tell ya’ but I’d have to… (snicker)… No really it would be nice to share but I can’t. You ever hear of N.D.A.’s? Mine is still within the 5-year period. Maybe when I write a book or something. Just keep picking my brain for now.


  448. Oh, oops. Hey I got my son a T-shirt when he was 9 — his name was Danny, and the T-shirt (I got it used for $1) was a Christmas T-shirt. It was white but the square frame in which the picture appeared was the traditional green, red, like that. It showed a fireplace and a kind of sooty but typical red-velvet clad Santa emerging from it. He addresses a little boy of about 4 years old who is standing there in trap-door pajamas and holding a teddy bear by the foot. The caption reads, “I’m sorry, Danny, but now I have to kill you.”

    I was interested not because of content but because I don’t actually know what an “operational research analyst” does! Forgive my ignorance — I have quite a lot of it — but research is my hobby.

    I appreciate your input, as always…


  449. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 3:47 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – But I can share with you one of my recent passions. Read up on this guy and try and figure out his back-story (bio). Good luck with that. He loves everything I love but he is better at it then anything I could possibly imagine: Norman Polmar. He is a published author and has done much TV and press these days. He is the REAL go-to-guy. I can only sit back and marvel at what he knows and has forgotten. I love Pierce Brosnan’s character and Pierce too (he loves the Cetaceans more than our Navy – I love both) but Norman is the real deal. Kinda’ like Bond vs. Poindexter? Just to pique your interest Norman was born in U.K. – huh? (And BTW he could break this Zimmerman case in his sleep! I’m sure he’s watching it too from VA. I can just imagine what he’s telling his friends: “Just let me render George to GITMO in a head-bag and we’ll get him talking with a little good ol’ E.I.T*…”)

    Poindexter:
    http://www.felixthecat.com/IMG/ff-poindexter.gif

    Bond
    http://tinyurl.com/c6gusn7

    Visualize my like this one (BMW and all) even though I’m more like the first one (with a busted down Ford P.O.S.). Norman drives a BMW I’m sure! He’s rich too!

    *What’s EIT? Watch time-stamp 09:15 onward from “Quantum of Solace”:movie: Youtube /watch?v=IHhLfIavW_8


  450. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 3:56 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – I said earlier that my Hollywood hero and alter-ego is “Jack Black”. Watch this YouTube clip of him in movie Enemy of the State. You will see him playing an O.R.A. for the “Puzzle Palace” in Ft Meade Maryland. Only I “DID” (past tense) it for private industry not the infamous alphabet soup.

    I particularly liked timestamp 06:40 onward… ahh memories of stale coffee and partner’s B.O.! (LOL) – just kiddin’ around…

    Remember Gene Hackman’s line from the movie “I’m not a conspiracy theorist because I’m actually…” you fill in the rest. (Still kiddin’ around…)


  451. Son of Thunder, you’re so far ahead of me I am laughing helplessly. I’ll check out Polmar, thanks. I’ll be looking up definitions of words and checking phrases now for a couple of days — talk to you at the end of the week!

    Thanks!

    PS: Not a Ford, please tell me not a Ford–


  452. OK, here’s a confession: I did not understand what I saw on that video clip. OK, here’s another one: I have probably seen about 120-130 movies in my whole life. That’s if you don’t count Fellini’s 8-1/2 which I saw about 20 X and Rashomon which I saw about 10 X. I have a friend who is a professional actor (Tony Award) and she sees movies ALL THE TIME and she teases me half to death about this, but there are reasons. First: I do not understand them! Second: I fall asleep during them. Third: They sometimes cost money and I’m a notorious skin-flint. So I will view this several times more, get some advice from my friends (including one who is 12 years old so he knows EVERYTHING!) and try to figure it out.

    Again, thank you!

    PS: I want to put together a project. I want to collaborate with you on it. I have no money to back it. We should “do lunch” when the Eagle Lands.
    Keep this a secret. Life depends on it.


  453. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 4:26 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – I personally see you as “Garcia” from “Criminal Minds” – it’s a TV show about the people who the FBI will or already has called in on this Zimmerman case. It’s called BAU (Behavioral Analysis Unit). They will need profilers to help reconstruct what REALLY happened and not George’s very retarded version. They will probably share info with FL-SpecProc too. IMHO George Zimmerman is SOOOO very screwed now… Daddy will NOT be able to just make this one go away. Too much press. And the present Administration isn’t full of corrupt Necons either (Dubya and Cheney?). And the POTUS already said Trayvon could have been his son. I’m sure Eric Holder feels the same way too. Director Mueller won’t let ANOTHER Florida Hate Crime get swept under the rug on his watch and be the sole reason why the 2012 Florida Riots happen? I smell a sacrificial lamb cooking and it’s not for George Zimmerman’s Bar Mitzvah.

    The fictional Garcia is the quintessential ORA (Operational Research Analyst). She was recruited after a FBI hacker-sting (i.e. like the real hacker and present felon Mittnick). So her salary would not be typical to GSA paygrades.


  454. Oh, hey, I could play her! I’d need a few make-over and wardrobe items first of course. But I’m technologically challenged. Garcia seems to be a computer wiz.

    Seriously, I do a certain kind of research that has no real name (that I know of). I comb through the papers and read through the stuff and pick out things that, put together with other things, throw things into relief so I can see them better, and then I “get” them — whereupon I can actually SPLAIN THEM to others! I believe I have solved the JonBenet Ramsey case. (No idea WHO killed her, but the category of her killer, I think I have — and the son of that family knew, too, and the police could have easily found out from him if they did not have incentive to avoid finding out). THe things that went into my belief about that were: reading the publicly available reports (bad and good and ugly); speaking with dozens of cops and medical providers (because I used to be a lecturer and panel presenter on the Public Health Service conference circuit, subject child abuse); gathering information from everyone who wanted to share information, for about 2 years, and then studying my own notes for weeks and months.

    If there were big powerful organizations composed of the representatives of little exploited kids, they’d have gone to bat to force an appropriate police response to the Ramsey case, too, but —

    Since little kids have no power and no money, and no union, and no backing, and no influence, and no way to organize, and since their mothers generally lack that kind of power as well, well…

    Is Criminal Minds the show that starred Mandy Patinkin? He co-starred with my friend in the Broadway production of the WILD PARTY, a show I did not love (but one that featured Eartha Kitt, whom I did love!). In that show, there’s a young skinny guy who puts things together in his mind and “profiles” psychological states of the criminals — that might be more up my alley if I had an alley. (I’m not a landowner either.)

    I really like the fact that you “see me” as a TV personality! And a SMART BLONDE TOO! HA!


  455. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 5:25 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    Dammit! I did it again! OK here is a less than 3 hyperlinks break down:

    (Page 1)

    @Malisha – If you are talking about the Jack Black clip from Enemy of the State then here is the OFFICIAL ORA job description: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Math/Operations-research-analysts.htm

    However, the federal kind do it a bit differently. But they NEVER get guns or are put in harms way in the field and stuff. For the off-the-books dangerous stuff they use “contractors” and “paramilitary” scary types (i.e. Xe and CSC/DynCorp?). The alphabet soup (that have no military role per se) likes using active matrixed Marines and US Navy ST-6 (et al) teams for their dirty-work (affectionately called wet work – something GZ marvels at and actually performed recently). However, the FBI needs none of that cloak-n-dagger crap. They do it legally.

    If you want the best place on the Net to watch free movies and TV shows? Well there is a place but I don’t want to ruin it for them – they are not secret but not invulnerable to Hollywood-paid-hackers.

    (Continued Page 2)


  456. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 5:26 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    (Continuing – Page 2)

    @Malisha – Maybe we could “confab” in a secure fashion. Of course I would know how. It is very secure IF you get a free account there too. Mine is sonofthunder@hush.com you can get a free one at http://www.hushmail.com – you have to use it at least once every 3 weeks or loose it. Note to spammers and other *strangers* I will not respond to anyone else without a hushmail account. It’s only secure between hushmail users not to outside email servers. All outside emails automatically go in Trash folder – sorry.


  457. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 5:41 pm Otteray Scribe

    SoTB: I had to stifle a grin at your last post. Wonder how many users here know what wet work is?


  458. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 5:49 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Yes Mandy Patinkin was in the TV show. However, he was replaced by my other hero (and quintessential con-artist) Joe Mantegna. Yes Garcia is the computer-wiz-kid HOWEVER that is how the REAL FBI rolls. They are mostly ALL techno-phobes and need to hire consultants, interns, and entry-level IT people like Garcia. They hired Mittnick for his uber-skills but he just bolted later and I think is still on the lamb. They use outside help a lot. They have this consultant con-artist named Frank W. Abagnale, Jr. who is simply awesome. Did you see the movie about him Catch Me If You Can (2002)? Of course people in certain *other* federal agencies are all mostly cons and a pain in the FBI’s collective arse*. (LOL)

    *http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/71826.html (one of 6 to date under Mr. Obama’s watch!)

    You’d make a great OLD SCHOOL profiler. I think FBI BAU analysts requirements are pretty high. I think you have to be at least a PHD in psychology. Other agencies use them too but for more nefarious reasons.You could check out DHS. They need profilers to help them weed out their own pedophiles. (Just kiddin’ guys!!! Put down the phone – LOL)

    Hey check out The Mentalist on CBS Thursdays at 10PM EST. Great show. Patrick Jane is the smart-azz consultant I fashion myself after. Maybe that’s why I’m freelance now huh?


  459. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetwork

    “Wetwork or wet work is a euphemism for murder or assassination, alluding to spilling blood. The expression “wet work”, as well as the similar “wet job”,
    “wet affair” or “wet operation”, are all calques of the euphemism used by the KGB for such activities, mokroye delo (wet job).[1] These operations are reputed to have been handled at the KGB by Spetsbureau 13, colorfully known as the “Department of wet affairs.” Assassins are referred to as “wet boys”.

    The Russian expression “wet job” (мокрое дело) can be traced to at least the 19th century from Russian criminal slang (fenya, muzyka) and originally meant robbery that involved murder, i.e., spilling blood.”


  460. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 6:10 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    Otteray Scribe – “SoTB: I had to stifle a grin at your last post. Wonder how many users here know what wet work is?”

    You’re right but I did say “dirty work”.

    To all: If you want to know anything go to Google (brainchild of the InQTel – who’s that?) and type in define:wetwork or any word or phrase. WW was recently sanctioned by President Obama in Abbottabad Pakistan on an old family friend of the Bush Family and son of the old employer of Pres. GW Bush when he worked for the failed Arbusto Oil. You know the guy who allegedly conducted 911 from a cave in Afghanistan and who the FBI was never looking for for that particular crime.

    I wonder if this video sheds any light on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw
    No of course not. Our *friends* would never perform WW on us! What does Zechariah 13:6 say?


  461. anon nurse,

    Thanks for the etymology lesson, teaching me something new and thus making my day complete. Being an afficiando of espionage fiction, I knew “wet work” derived from the Russian term мокрое дело/”wet job”, but I didn’t know that the Russian term was originally a 19th Centurt criminal slang term. I always thought it was a Cold War contemporaneous term coined by the KGB.


  462. on 1, April 10, 2012 at 6:21 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    anon nurse – KGB? What does that stand for “Klever Good Boys”? – sorry :-)

    They have different alphabets now. But KGB will arise again thanks to the Democratically elected (yeah Right) new president of Russia. I know Dmitri is TOTALLY pissed! “Gray Cardinal you promised me another term!” Putin responds: “Hey Boychick I never promised you Rose Garden… Now get away from my face while I resurrect Communism! We have another race-riot to plan in America in Sanford Florida! Now where is my phone number for Comrade Kalugin?” – LOL


  463. Bird’s Eye View of the Due Process in Sanford — oh by the way, remember the actual title of the Dred Scott case? Sanford versus Scott, right? I wonder…

    Anyway, Zimmerman sees Martin, and wants to be THE MAN.
    Zimmerman calls the heat on Martin, but then decides, “this one is MINE.”
    Zimmerman comes up to Martin, asserts his whiteness, his rightness, his superiority, his official “THE MAN” itude, but…
    uh oh
    uh oh
    Martin doesn’t play his role, has not studied his PART, and…

    resists?
    Martin gets the upper hand?
    Martin gets proverbial leg up on Zimmerman?
    “Help Help Help” screams little Zimmerman but then…
    the great “equalizer” emerges…
    Instead of Zim taking his beating administered by a KID WITH TEA,
    Zimmerman can be THE MAN AGAIN, huh?
    Pow.

    The kids playing at “cops and robbers” do it the same way,
    POW. I really AM THE MAN.

    But now, again, when the other side gains on him, Zim is showing us his true grit.
    Now Zim is showing us what a MAN he is.
    His lawyers stood up there and yelled, “Trayvon Martin broke my client’s nose!”
    They yelled, “Trayvon Martin was a victimizer, did shaken-baby stuff to our poor client, the poor victimized baby,”

    AND THEY YELLED THAT when they could not be asked to submit all that “testimony” to cross examination.

    They were full of bravado while their baby was under cover and their words could not be challenged and their version of reality was being broadcast all over the place with no one to contradict it and THEY WERE THE MAN,

    and…

    now that things have taken their course a little and a different, more reviewable form of due process may be available,

    the lawyers run,
    Zim skittles away,
    and the voice of the turtle is heard in the land.


  464. on 1, April 11, 2012 at 7:55 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Very poetic. However, I would have preferred rhyming like Rev. Jackson or at least iambic pentameter :-)

    OK here’s the latest: Just like I said they dumped the lawyers. They may go with a guy in Orlando that handled George’s case back in 2005. Or the judge may represent him for free. The old lawyers LIED about George being out of state. If that is so then he violated his O.R. agreement and now is a federal fugitive. That means another federal agency will be involved (i.e. US Marshall Service) to go pick him up.

    So the scuttlebutt is that George called the FL-SpecProc recently. That can only mean that daddy advised him to try and negotiate a plea-bargain. If the Barracuda accepts (which is probably what she’s going to say within next 72 hours), it may mean, to save the Florida taxpayers, she will ask the court for a reduced sentence if he plea’s Guilty to MAN-1 or 2. He could get as little as 5 years (I think). If so then she is guaranteed to issue in the 2012 Race Riots this summer making Vladimir Putin very happy (long story from mouth of ex-KGB General Oleg Kalugin who ALLEGEDLY defected to USA).

    I assure you George never left the state. I believe he is holed up in daddy’s basement in Lake Mary (very armed). The ex-lawyers where using something my ilk is very familiar with: “misdirection”. I also think they are reading the blogs (including this one) for situational intelligence.

    Has anyone read George’s new website yet?

    BTW – y’all can call me SOT or SotB. I like that thanks to OS.


  465. SotB:

    very interesting.

    thanks.


  466. on 1, April 11, 2012 at 8:02 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Check your email… Baby Girl…


  467. on 1, April 11, 2012 at 8:40 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – I think I know what you didn’t understand about Jack Black’s role in the movie “Enemy of the State”. You never saw the movie. Here’s a quick synopsis: The movie was based on rumors of the US Federal TIA program and the Patriot Act. It was fictional but was actually based on a real rumor that actually came true. The assassination of an opposing US Congressman was fictional (kinda’ – sorta’). Jack Black was a NSA ORA named FIEDLER that was doing illegal surveillance without the required FISA warrant with his team under the aegis of a corrupt NSA assistant director who was working for a corrupt Conservative Senator who wanted TIA (Total Information Awareness or total domestic surveillance) really badly. Why? To spy on political competition Watergate-on-steroids style. It was loosely based on NSA’s Echelon and FBI’s Carnivore Projects. In the movie an EPA dude accidently filmed the wet work and then gave the tape to his anti-mob attorney friend Will Smith. Jack’s operation (cleverly disguised as a StOp – standard training op) was to spy on Will to get that dam tape which was the kiss of death to the ENTIRE illegal program. Everybody would go to jail.

    So Jack (or Fiedler’s) job was to run relational database searches and do what is called “data mining”. They also commandeered NRO satellites and NSA-CSS (Central Security Service) resources (military thugs?). Their uber-nemesis was an ex-NSA analyst (old school) played by Gene Hackman. I like the line where he said: http://www.wavlist.com/movies/016/eos-conspiracy.wav

    BTW – check out what NSA is doing in Utah right now… Maybe this movie was correct?


  468. on 1, April 11, 2012 at 9:03 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Maliha – Watch the entire movie EOTS on Youtube (12 parts): Part 1 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcKR5X5cz7g


  469. @ Sonofthunder– Thank you. I will do so.

    Inviting your take on the announcements made by Zim’s attys and the “sudden” disappearance of Zim.


  470. on 1, April 11, 2012 at 1:54 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Actually Zim’s atty’s are doing this on TV to officially wash their hands of Zim to save face for existing and future customers. Zim owes them money over and above the retainer daddy paid them. So Zim is playing “off radar” to avoid the bill and to allow him to check out different lawyer. Maybe the lawyer that represented him when he fled to PA in 2006 and was extradited back (Case file# 592006CF002747A Per Seminole County Clerk’s Office). Apparently he is also a US veteran per the court. His online military record does not seem to show his service – only his name. This means he is a flight risk!


  471. “Maybe the lawyer that represented him when he fled to PA in 2006 and was extradited back (Case file# 592006CF002747A Per Seminole County Clerk’s Office).”

    OK Gerty. Enough is enough. Did you bother to look at the DOB on that case?

    I understand it. You’re a child looking for attention. You’re a regular Wikipedia Commando. Those of us paying attention were able to make quick work of identifying you.


  472. Thanks. It was getting old.


  473. ThinkProgress via Twitter

    BREAKING: Florida prosecutor will file charges against Zimmerman. Announcement at 6PM. (Via @NBCNews)
    15 minutes ago


  474. Good news anon nurse. Now let’s hope he gets the full measure of justice, if convicted.


  475. Thanks. It was getting old. (an earlier knee-jerk comment of mine)

    On the other hand, it seems pretty intrusive…


  476. on 1, April 11, 2012 at 4:17 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Steadfast – Oops! You’re right! I did not check the DOB (1958). George’s DOB is 1983. Good catch… I was looking for the name of the lawyer I found earlier and posted here but can’t seem to find it. I stumbled on this case at the county clerk’s website. I’m just trying to be helpful not show-boating. I guess I should have caveated it with IMO or IMHO. I tend to drop caveats in the heat of posting stuff. I know bad habit.

    No I did not get this from Wikipedia nor Google. Albeit, these websites are used by OSINT (Open Source Intelligence gathering) at certain govt agencies. Both are valuable sources as everything at Wiki is screened and challenged by skeptics and then deleted if found weak on facts or credible citations.

    I also admit to getting my data on George from news media and internet blogs. I am not claiming “special” access. But my present employment helps as I am a Operational Research Analyst (now freelance) which mostly everybody on this forum knows – except you.


  477. the so called ex-lawyers is in on the bogus lies they know where he is at this is a scam, andthe lawyers is involved, zimmerman is eating all this fame and attention up he is a trigger happy vigilante want to be cop and now he famous .


  478. Thanks for clearing up the question, but here’s MY question: how does any past behavior on the part of these two lawyers explain the present conduct of these two lawyers? My guess is that the lawyers were “stating facts” that were obviously not checked because they could get away with that so long as all they were doing was blah blah blah to the media and on the web. They would NOT be permitted to go into court saying Trayvon broke Zim’s nose or baby-shook his head because pursuant to the Canon of Ethics for lawyers in every single state of the union (and federal courts), an attorney cannot represent something to a court that he has personal knowledge is not correct. THere IS some possibility that the lawyers could say, if Zim were to stand trial, that they had NO evidence that what their client had told them was NOT TRUE, but that would sound pretty thin in light of all the real facts that cannot be undone. I think the lawyers needed to step aside for two reasons: (1) TO PROTECT THEMSELVES because they have been making up total fantasies for the media (which would have worked if there had never been charges leveled against Zim); and (2) TO PROTECT ZIM from the authorities knowing where he is, to arrest him.

    They were PR hacks. I don’t care what their reputation was. They were meant to show everyone (prosecutor included) that the prosecution, if attempted, would fail. When that fell through, they fell off the case like ticks who have already engorged themselves on enough blood to last until “get real” day. But who will be present on “get real” day, to stand up and be a man? Trayvon Martin stood up and wa a man on 2/26/2012. Now it is time for his killer to decide whether or not to do that. His lawyers faded out —

    My guess is that lots of “supporters” are going to fill the web with stories about how emotionally distressed, PTSD’d, psychotic-break-ed-broke, depressed, non-compos-mentos, driven-crazy-by-all-this-inexplicable-hatred, etc. etc. George was before he vanished…

    I’m bracing myself.

    Haiku Charge

    Wide sky, big sea, wind,
    The injured ozone layer,
    And — a hidden place?

    Concentrate all this,
    storming ocean in a bowl,
    It’s a reflection!


  479. Steadfast:

    “OK Gerty. Enough is enough. Did you bother to look at the DOB on that case?”

    Who is Gerty? Or what is a Gerty? Who are you responding to?


  480. I lost my bet. 99 cents! OUCH!

    I thought Zim would be gone by the time the charges were announced. OK, I was wrong. It’s not the first time, either — I was wrong one time in 1976, too. I hope not to make a habit of it.

    Now — whoever advised me, way back there in the comments, “You know he can’t be charged under the law,” I just want to redeem a little bit of my credibility because under Florida law, the guy has been charged.

    BTW, I think the 2nd degree murder charge is perfect. No grand jury (which you need for first-degree) and no need to wrestle with the death sentence issue (which would be horrible for everyone) and no need to prove premeditation. With a guy like Zim, it’s hard enough to prove MEDITATION much less PRE-MEDITATION. He’s not exactly Rodin’s “Thinker.”


  481. on 1, April 11, 2012 at 7:55 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Great Haiku!

    @Bron – Steadfast was referring to me as “Gerty”.I think it’s an Australian idiom for “Giggling Gertie”. I believe Steady (and 1 other) were calling me, in a pejorative sense, a child seeking attention with my “intrusive” and prolific textual/verbal diarrhea (i.e. aka “loggeria”) – translation: talk too much and bragging for undue attention. I can only say they came to their own false conclusions about me. I have never identified myself in any grandiose nor declarative sense in such a way to deserve so much angst. I analyze and report. It’s my very raison d’etre so to speak. :P

    @anon nurse – As Sheldon Cooper from TV show “The Big Bang Theory” would say “Neener neener!” – :-)

    @All – Well I’m glad the SpecProc finally did it. She is going for Murder 2 and George turned himself in already. I wish it were more realistic at Man 1 but I guess if you aim high it may get knocked back to Man 1. And the lawyers were lying. George never left the state. I still think George is fishing for a plea bargain. I just hope he’s not doing this pro se. I wish I could find that Orlando lawyer’s name I posted somewhere here earlier in the month. He was the one to get GZ off on that SPD cop bashing and I think his domestic charges dropped. I’m sure they are going with him.


  482. on 1, April 11, 2012 at 8:12 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    Copy and Paste from: http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/782.07

    “782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.—
    (1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (2) A person who causes the death of any elderly person or disabled adult by culpable negligence under s. 825.102(3) commits aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (3) A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(3) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (4) A person who causes the death, through culpable negligence, of an officer as defined in s. 943.10(14), a firefighter as defined in s. 112.191, an emergency medical technician as defined in s. 401.23, or a paramedic as defined in s. 401.23, while the officer, firefighter, emergency medical technician, or paramedic is performing duties that are within the course of his or her employment, commits aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    History.—RS 2384; GS 3209; RGS 5039; CGL 7141; s. 715, ch. 71-136; s. 180, ch. 73-333; s. 15, ch. 74-383; s. 6, ch. 75-298; s. 12, ch. 96-322; s. 2, ch. 2002-74.”

    Based on this Zim could face 30 years! Also, under the Florida 10-20-Life system, if a firearm is used in any way then the penalty will be raised to the next degree.


  483. The Friends (Quakers) want to discuss and dispute in order to reach consensus. This is really the first time I have ever blogged — I admit to having gotten a little obsessed at a few points in time here and I have to observe, about my conduct, that “talk is cheap” — but I went off track a couple of times and sorry for it. This comment, however, is to the rest of my respected fellows on this thread, and related threads on Professor Turley’s blog.

    Probably 75% of Americans believed that Zimmerman should have been arrested, and now, he has been arrested. We have lawyers on this blog and they have been good enough to show us the laws as they exist in Florida, and comment on them, and guide us in that respect. We have endured some rather irritable and/or even angry communications with each other. I recently e-mailed a friend who is an intellectual and a psychiatrist in New York, and I told him that I had gotten into a fairly deep, involved discussion of someone (I was describing Manny Orlo) who started out so radically opposied to what I was saying about the case that I could feel real hostility, and he asked, “WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO HIM AT ALL?” I felt a little scolded, and I defended myself by saying, “If he thinks he has something to say to me, even if he’s angry or hostile, perhaps I have something to say to him too.” I could feel my friend thinking, “She’s being such a moron!” But right now I feel like I was just doing what we humans do that the rest of the animals do not do: using language to build something. I don’t even necessarily think I was helping to build anything particularly GOOD — or BAD — just building.

    Perhaps I would feel a lot worse about this whole process had Zimmerman not been charged and arrested; I don’t know. But I feel becalmed about my blogging, my conversations, even my missteps and misspeaks and incidences of ignorance or frank error.

    Haiku Puzzle

    Steady dripping sound:
    Could this be a form of speech
    from the universe?


  484. Malisha & SoTB,
    You have both contributed greatly to this issue and thread. I’ve been so taken by your stuff that I’ve hardly commented since my additions would only be superfluous. Love the haiku, please hang around, you add alot.


  485. I am very impressed with Malisha’s skills.


  486. I agree, Blouise. Malisha has done a notably way above average job for a newcomer. Far better than any in recent memory. I’d go so far as to say excellent . . . and you know that’s not a word I use often or lightly. I hope she sticks around.


  487. I do too … and I agree with your assessment.


  488. Dear co-bloggers, including but not limited to those who have recently given me and co-blogger Boanerges such lovely compliments (see, I’m healing from Bruce Bach telling me that I’m not a nice, sweet woman!):

    Wow, thanks!

    Originally what inspired me here was the intellectual tone. Professor Turley and I had met (fortunately or unfortunately) on opposite sides of the Eric Foretich case. NOT that I thought that ridiculous federal law passed to make the case go away was constitutional — far from it — but that I thought, “who cares, once the life interest has been aborted before it was even recognized and this country can’t seem to gestate anything that doesn’t mutate into a social disgrace?” and here was the great constitutional scholar devoting himself to THAT CASE when DeShaney was looming over us, strangling us so viciously that we couldn’t scream “help”!

    Oh well, here I go again.

    But so, there, I jumped in, probably won’t ever jump out. Recently a thumb drive that had a lot of my valuables on it got erased (a kid recorded computer games over my stuff on it, OY!) and I thought, “I had better write some new poetry, QUICK, or I will begin to feel a sense of loss.”

    If we weren’t all talking, it would be lonely here.

    Haiku:

    Sun bakes the earth dry.
    Now feet cannot punish it.
    Progress is counting.

    Before I learned enough to incorporate nature into every haiku, I wrote free-style and back then, my best was:

    Haiku Jew.

    Many pricks, no blood.
    Now I remember Shylock:
    No, we don’t bleed, NO!


  489. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 8:46 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Even though I slept at Holiday Inn express last night I am not a psychiatrist. :-) However, I feel your responses to “right-wing brain” thinkers is totally appropriate. Scientific studies just that they are “low-effort thinkers” according to Dr. Scott Edelman of U. of Ark. However, a more in-depth study was conducted by NYU and UCLA LA Times Article. Click the article and read up on it.

    People like Manny O. are IMHO in this category. You and I tend to be liberal-thinkers. One is not better than the other only DIFFERENT. They don’t think deeply about issues and only see things superficially. We however do.

    They see the TM/GZ scenario as simply a SYG issue about Armed Grown Man versus Child with just Fists. Ever here the old adage about a man who came to a gun fight with just a knife? That’s kinda’ how they view this. They also see it as a future threat to USA gun laws. Why they need guns at all is baffling. Home protection? Then why carry it away from home. Hunting? Why carry it on the streets? Target practice… it goes on and on.

    IMO most threats to people like this comes from people who look nothing like Trayvon. Good guns (vs. Sat Night Specials) are expensive (GZ’s Kel-Tec was $175-$200). Unless the bad guys are into drug dealing they simply can’t afford them (Other 9mm’s range from that to over $1000). So where’s the threat to justify carrying a pistol unless you carry large amounts of money for your business or you work in drug-infested urban hoods?

    So please feel very justified in defending your point-of-view aggressively. Yes you and eye suffer from loggeria* (everybody says in unison: “WE KNOW!” (LOL)). But it is not only informative to the masses it’s therapeutic to us. We’re not showing-off; we just have something to say to a larger intellectual audience versus our benighted peers at home/work.

    *Loggeria – Verbose (textually and verbally).


  490. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 9:02 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Professor Turley does not see eye-to-eye with many smart people. He seems to think that believers in a Christian God are delusional as he is IMHO a dyed-in-the-wool atheist. I can understand, as did Soren Kierkegaard, that Organized Christianity (et al) has, albeit arguably, utterly failed to interpret the Bible accurately making it easier for people like the good professor to be very uninformed about the very real and verifiable metaphysical world that exists all around us and from well before we existed. Arguably this phenomena explains our true origins better than a failed Protestant minister who incorrectly blamed God for his 5-year old daughter’s early death (i.e. Charles Darwin). Intellectuals can believe in God too. Just without Organized Religion’s philosophical “fruit of the poisonous tree”>.


  491. SOTB, what you say is fascinating as usual.

    Strangely, I have no curiosity at all about cosmology and no angst about “why we are here.” You will be my main advisor on what to read and watch! This is a prestigious position; Yann Martel himself advises me too!

    We may ourselves be a language! Perhaps that is why I am playing with the words like a raccoon fingering his food with that look of intense concentration on his face, before the first taste.


  492. Believe as you wish, but the phrase “very real and verifiable metaphysical world that exists all around us” is contradictory. One of the key distinguishing features of metaphysics from science is empirical enperiment and testing, i.e. quantification of the real and verifiable. This is why the advent of the scientific method caused the pursuit of what was once called “natural philosophy” – a branch of metaphysics – to break away from philosopy and start calling the pursuit science instead of metaphysics. That which is real and verifiable is the realm of science. That which may be real but isn’t necessarily veriiable is the realm of metaphysics. By way of example; consider “cosmology”. It is both an area of metaphysical and scientific study, but confusing one for the other leads to, well, confusion. :D


  493. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 7:26 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – Granted but I am using the phrase “metaphysical” in a different way than modern philosophy uses it. I am using it’s root meaning which is: meta- (Greek for higher [than]) and physical (Greek for psukhikos or the “human soul”). So when I say that I am referring to super-sentient-higher-life-forms that are supernatural and generally exist above the Earth (extraterrestrial – yet NOT Hollywood-based aliens!).

    I feel that the scientific empiricals have been mostly satisfied with science itself: i.e. the written record of eyewitness reports of the Bronze Age and 1st century CE, archaeology, anthropology, Earth sciences, and anecdotal evidence of metaphysical historic and contemporary supernatural incidences that can not be easily explained away with jaded and skeptical atheistic explanations.

    Even the very complexity of the Universe, the human genome, the human circulatory system, central nervous system, immune system, the ocular system of vision, hearing, olfactory, complex muscle system, etc. as a whole just screams super-sentient architecture. As a whole this system could not have just slowly came into existence without help as they are too complex and interdependent. And especially in the absence of transitional false-starts (i.e. missing links). Also when you have multi-millions of years of sentient-less natural selection WITHOUT some sort of super-sentient-sheparding (i.e. a deity?) you only have empirical decay not progress.

    That’s IMO not Christian Fundamentalism which I partially reject as nonsense. However, I hold the antithesis of that as nonsense as well. I am sort of in the middle of the road here.


  494. Sotb:

    you are fascinating, very interesting stuff.

    Yes how do you get a whale out of a wolf like creature and an Elephant out of Hyrax? What caused the genetic mutation to change feet into flippers. It wasnt the environment. Crocodiles and Alligators are pretty much as they were 60 million years ago. And for that matter so are Coelacanths.


  495. Deja vu all over again.

    “I am using the phrase “metaphysical” in a different way than modern philosophy uses it. I am using it’s root meaning which is: meta- (Greek for higher [than]) and physical (Greek for psukhikos or the “human soul”).”

    Then you are misunderstanding and misusing the word.

    metaphysics
    late 14c., “branch of speculation which deals with the first causes of things,” from M.L. metaphysica, neut. pl. of Medieval Gk. (ta) metaphysika, from Gk. ta meta ta physika “the (works) after the Physics,” title of the 13 treatises which traditionally were arranged after those on physics and natural sciences in Aristotle’s writings. The name was given c.70 B.C.E. by Andronicus of Rhodes, and was a ref. to the customary ordering of the books, but it was misinterpreted by Latin writers as meaning “the science of what is beyond the physical.” Hence, metaphysical came to be used in the sense of “abstract, speculative” (e.g. by Johnson, who applied it to certain 17c. poets, notably Donne and Cowley, who used “witty conceits” and abstruse imagery). The word originally was used in English in the singular; plural form predominated after 17c., but singular made a comeback late 19c. in certain usages under German influence.

    “So when I say that I am referring to super-sentient-higher-life-forms that are supernatural and generally exist above the Earth”

    See, that word “supernatural” is where you loose contact with science. There is only the natural. Anything else is speculation without proof, again metaphysics are not science. Science requires proof and repeatable experimentation.

    “As a whole this system could not have just slowly came into existence without help as they are too complex and interdependent.”

    And your proof of that statement is what exactly? Nature is full of self-orgnaizing abiotic and biotic systems and deep time is a scale most people have a real difficult time grasping. Complexity is a function of permutations tried over time. Modern humans have been here a blink of an eye in biological or geological time. The Earth has been around about 4.5 billion years. Modern humans? About 200,000 years give or take. That means Earth has been around 22,500 time longer than all of human history. The abiotic orgins of life have dated to a time window from 3.9 to 3.5 billion years ago. That means the chemical building blocks of life have been around 19,500 times longer than humans. That’s a lot of time for things to combine and recombine.

    “And especially in the absence of transitional false-starts (i.e. missing links).”

    Evolution and the fossil record are incomplete, but there is plenty of evidence for transitional forms. Natural selection, however, is going to limit false starts. If a trait has no true survival advantage, it’s not going to be passed on unless it is by coincidence.

    “Also when you have multi-millions of years of sentient-less natural selection WITHOUT some sort of super-sentient-sheparding (i.e. a deity?) you only have empirical decay not progress.”

    Natrual processes. Breeding. The swapping of genes. Mutation. Symbiosis. Evolution requires no shepard.

    Believe in a God all you like, that’s your prerogative, but there is no scientific evidence for one or for any kind of sheparding force other than the processes of evolution and chemistry combined with time. As limited as we are, we are the highest order of intelligence we have evidence of existing in the universe.


  496. “What caused the genetic mutation to change feet into flippers. It wasnt the environment.” Really, Bron? You’re going to go with that answer?

    It was exactly the environment creating pressure on shallow water fish or aquatic reptiles through predation that gave the first fish to develop feet like flippers and/or a crude lung a survival advantage when the could pull themselves out of the water and away from predators. Live another day, get another chance to make more babies with feet like flippers and/or a crude lung.

    Wow. I used to wonder how American got to be 17th in science education worldwide. Between this and the conversation with Dredd, it’s no longer a mystery. People can’t pusue the study of science when they don’t even know what it is or isn’t.


  497. Gene H:

    So you think that feet magically turned to flippers because the food was in the water? Come on. Are you serious?

    There is something other than environmental pressure at work. My guess is that the changes are genetic mutations brought about by viruses or some other yet to be discovered mechanism.

    Environmental pressure will adapt an animal to tolerate a poisonous food or change an animals coloration but that alone is not going to change a wolf-like creature into a whale or a Hyrax like creature into an elephant. Something esle is at work.


  498. Gene,
    I have no problem with science. It is just that darn math that keeps getting in the way.


  499. “Something esle is at work.”

    Yeah, it’s not just environment.

    Simple version? Environmental pressures, mutation, recombination and natural selection a.k.a. evolution.

    Complex version? Heredity manifesting variation though random mutation, sex and recombination combined with the mechanisms of natural selection, genetic flow and genetic drift all resulting in adaptation, co-evolution, co-operation and speciation; processes which all fall under the rubric of evolution.

    Magic doesn’t have squat to do with it other than magic is the name people ascribe to processes they don’t understand.


  500. raff,

    I’m trying to keep this as math free as possible just for you. The only math you need to know for this is one plus one equals a slightly different other one. :D


  501. Wow, we’re on a roll here, with discussions that are brain-straining-and-training! First, thanks, wow. Second, another story if you don’t mind.

    In the early 1990s I went with a friend (who is a Public Health Service physician) to a wedding of a man and woman in a “Messianic Jewish” church. That is, it was one or another of the “Jews for Jesus” style religions, and I am not sure, sorry to say, which one. It was led by a Rabbi but it was in a church where they met (by arrangement with the minister) on Saturdays, and I think the wedding was also on a Saturday. It was relatively informal and the service was a bit hard to follow but all with best efforts and good cheer. We were seated at tables of eight and the food was brought by the attendees (including us) like a potluck. Not a high ticket affair.

    At the table next to the one I sat at were two young men who apparently were born after their mothers had taken thalidomide during the pregnancy. They were close in age but not related, and I figured they knew each other through some educational or medical common ground, and the bride was a registered nurse, so that was a good guess. They had the “flipper-like” appendages that resulted from the use of thalidomide during pregnancy (I believe it was first trimester use that caused the birth defects). They were very skillful at using their upper and lower appendages and they were admirable in their social and musical gregariousness.

    Years later, when a friend of mine had cancer, I began to do research on treatments other than the standard fare, and discovered that thalidomide (by then an orphan drug, of course) was a very effective treatment for cancer, because it was “anti-angiogenetic.” That is, the effect of thalidomide on the body was that the tiny capillaries that carry blood to the cells of the body are unable to form (properly or at all) as a result of thalidomide use. Thus, a gestating baby cannot form limbs. Thus, a tumor cannot form its mass and grow.

    Shark cartilage was a good source of the same chemical that made thalidomide as dangerous, and as useful, as it was.

    And from these experiences, I began to see the whales as my long…long…lost sisters, who had left the land, and the “ragpickers’ hills,” to return, flipping and gliding, “even birthing under a wave,” to the sea.

    To me it is not too hard to see manatee in hippopotamus; it is not so hard to see the descent of woman, and it is not so hard to see transformations that are not really architecture, but that may in fact be a series of little amazements, none of which is necessarily done for (or against) our (or my) benefit or detriment. The contingency theory of everything.

    In about 1994 I saw paintings of whales on the 41st street wall of Port Authority bus terminal in New York I stared at those whales. I thought, “You and I are here, tricky, unaware, and both of us waiting until time rehabilitates us.”


  502. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 9:11 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – I agree with some of what you say (i.e. Earth is MUCH older than the Fundamentalist 6,000 years). I can’t argue with you on that as they (The Fundies) have misinterpreted many of Moses’ divinely inspired words in Genesis. I also agree with Bron on his thought process too. I did say I was “in the middle of the road”. I didn’t think you were going to run me down with your Natural Selection belief system bus though. :-)

    You think people like me and Bron can not grasp science? What gives you that false assumption? Because I used Fundie-sounding “buzz-words” that tripped your Darwinist-talking-points center of your brain? If you actually read my posting with discernment you would see that I explained my point-of-view pretty succinctly that any benighted soul conditioned by the root-illogical-premise of Natural Selection could understand (I’m not being insulting to you Gene! So please don’t take it that way…).

    I can’t (and won’t) get down into the primordial muck of focusing on N.S. minutiae (i.e. “…self-orgnaizing abiotic and biotic systems…”) the way atheistic-Evolutionists like to do thinking they’ve made a salient point in their favor by going there to the minutiae. In actuality they totally miss the Gestalt of the ENTIRE picture as a whole (which I tried to present above). As the the 1c. CE Jewish Messianic carpenter was quoted by a Jewish Tax Collector as saying: “You strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel.” So IOW he meant you go to great lengths to explain your point-of-view in excruciating minute detail but totally miss the salient point that the Gestalt (or the big picture) does not support your arguably specious assertions.

    Sir Issac Newton summed up atheism pretty well for me. Read this interesting blurb he wrote about an atheist visitor to his laboratory. I think it pretty much sums up my thought processes as well. True story too:

    One time an atheist friend of Newton’s came over and saw this scale model of the solar system that Newton had built by an artisan. He remarked at how beautiful it was and asked who made it. Newton nonchalantly replied that no one did; it just made itself. The atheist asked again, got the same answer, and started to get angry. Newton replied, “if you cannot believe something as simple as this model cannot make itself, how can you believe the heavens made themselves?”

    I guess we could continue this on Hushmail.com if you like? Same goes for anyone else who doesn’t want to hijack the George Zimmerman thread here… We could just do Hushmail cc: to everybody interested in this conversation. Or not… :-)


  503. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 9:26 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Melisha – I love cetaceans.

    The Whales of the Port Authority Bus Terminal
    “Sea life at the Port Authority? It’s easy to miss this 400-foot marine-themed mural, since it’s located in the dark and grimy 41st Street underpass through which Greyhound and New Jersey Transit buses regularly lumber through.

    But one-name artist Wyland painted one of his 400-foot Whaling Walls here in 1993, coloring an exterior wall of the Port Authority in blues and greens and black.

    Wyland’s Whaling Walls, featuring humpbacks, blue whales, and other marine creatures, exist all over the world. There must be an interesting back story as to how this one ended up pretty much hidden away in an urban underpass, out of view of commuters and passerbys.”


  504. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 9:35 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Melisha – Sorry this picture was supposed to go with my whale posting above:

    The Whales of the Port Authority Bus Terminal


  505. “You think people like me and Bron can not grasp science?”

    Can? Whether you can or not is an open question. Whether you do or not isn’t. And I only think people don’t grasp science they demonstrate that you don’t. Bron does well in some areas, not so well in others. But right now, neither of you are showing an understanding of evolutionary biology. Natural selection isn’t a “belief system”. It’s a measurable repeatable observable process. Why here’s an article outlining that very kind of experiment and the observation called Natural selection in experimental populations of the landsnail Cepaea nemoralis (L.) by C. R. Bantock and M. Ratsey. It is but one of many, many such evidentiary examples of natural selection. Natural selection as an actual natural process is a scientific fact, not a “belief system”.

    Half understanding isn’t understanding either. Speaking of which . . .

    Newton? Smart guy. Big in physics. Very familiar with the man’s work. He couldn’t say the same of Darwin though being as Newton died March, 31, 1727 and Darwin was born February 12, 1809. I’m sure his knoweldge of abiogenic self-organizing systems was limited too with him being dead and all by the time that phenomena was described scientifically too.

    Again, I only think people who demonstrate that they don’t grasp science, don’t grasp science.

    I’m perfectly content to let this conversation drop as it is starting to, as Louis Black says, “make the dogs in my head start barking.”


  506. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 9:40 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Bron – I know this is NOT a photo. But I have seen Dolphins do this in large pods during full moon. They call it spyhopping. They levitate on their tails for several minutes looking at each other then straight up. You know what it looks like to me? My mom says “No way! They’re just dumb animals!” What do you think? I know others here will say “Huh? WTH?”:
    Dolphins spyhopping during full moon


  507. *And I only think people don’t grasp science they demonstrate that they don’t.*


  508. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 9:54 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – Again with the minutiae? What about the BIGGER picture? The whole not the parts?

    “It is suggested that overcrowding is a primary source of stress for all the morphs, and that temperature is important in determining the selective outcome between them. Alternative interpretations are given. It is concluded that the population cage provides a useful tool for the study of natural selection in Cepaea.”

    And this couldn’t possibly be a super-sentient architecture DESIGNED contingency feature in Cepaea? Or is it your “BELIEF” that is was absolutely not?

    Define: BELIEF [or BELIEF SYSTEM] – Something one [or more] accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

    So you and I both have our beliefs…

    Good discussion. OK I’m done.


  509. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 10:00 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – It doesn’t matter that it was Newton. It was the story that was key. It demonstrates that atheists don’t really use basic logical thinking. They SOUND pretty good at first and others jump on the bandwagon so as to not be marginalized as science-dummies. But in the final analysis the ROOT (or origin) thought (not the content of several minute parts of the whole) is defective in logic. i.e. How could the heavens make itself?


  510. Bron sez: “So you think that feet magically turned to flippers because the food was in the water? Come on. Are you serious? There is something other than environmental pressure at work. My guess is that the changes are genetic mutations brought about by viruses or some other yet to be discovered mechanism.”

    **************************************

    First of all, there is nothing magical about any of this. The animals who had the biggest feet, or some larger webbing between their toes than others caught more fish. The longer they stayed out in the water, the less useful feet became, but due to natural selection, bigger webbed feet ate better. And reproduced. And reproduced some more. At the same time they developed more abillity to hold breaths longer. Those with noses higher on the head ate better. And reproduced. And reproduced some more. With each generation, those better adapted to an aquatic enviornment had a higher survival rate.

    See, nothing magic about it at all. And viruses had nothing to do with it.


  511. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 10:21 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @rafflaw – Hey Raff. Did you ever watch that TV show NUMB3RS? It’s about an FBI agent who uses his brother’s math wizardry to help him solve problems with cases. The premise is that problems in human nature or behavior can be solved with Calculus. I’m like you as I can’t see how you can use static equations to solve for a totally random event. Not all humans are alike in personality as the FBI BAU profilers learn the hard way with psychopath and sociopath behavior.

    So watching these two morons, David Krumholtz and Peter MacNicol, act through their parts is laughable. I have no problem with them demonstrating a math equation on the whiteboard for a never changing event like the braking distance of a Ford F-150 at 60 mph. But to try and track a psychopath running down an ally and saying there is a 60% probability that he will return to the scene of the crime is simply retarded IMO. He more than likely will outsmart everyone and show up at David’s house.

    I wonder how they would handle George Zimmerman’s case? There’s a 90% probability that GZ is a closet racist? Hmmm… that may work… (LOL)


  512. on 1, April 12, 2012 at 10:30 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Bron – I want to help you but I dare not as Otteray Scribe is my Internet buddy (I hope). So I have no response here. I want to keep it that way as I really like him. :-)

    You’re on your own I’m afraid buddy. :-/


  513. I can’t post a link to the study but there was a study about how swimming with the dolphins (you have to be a good swimmer, of course) helped ameliorate various illnesses, and even anorexia! Often with things like that, I think I will never forget where I got the information, but five years later, I can’t even imagine where the thread was picked up…

    When it turned out that my son had a chronic condition called ankylosing spondylitis, I wanted him to go swim with the dolphins. It didn’t work out at the time. I still think it would be a good idea.

    True story: Some dolphins were used in the filming of a movie, and in the scene that was being shot, a guy falls out of a boat and gets rescued by the dolphins. So they shoot the scene. But something happened with the photography and it didn’t work out right, so they prepare the scene and get ready to shoot it again, and the guy gets dry clothes on, and etc. and etc., and then he falls out of the boat again.

    Forget it! The dolphin who previously saved him, upon seeing his fool ass flop into the water again in spite of having been rescued a mere hour before, gives him a violent beating. They had to rescue him from the stern pedagoguery of the outraged dolphin.


  514. SoTB,
    Bron really ought to read a little of Gregor Mendel’s work before getting into science discussions about adaptive genetic mutations with folks who have terminal degrees in…you know….actual science.

    Good thing my mouth was empty when I read that bit about viruses. Orange juice burns when snorted out the nose.


  515. Gene,
    Thanks for keeping it simple for me ! :)
    SoTB,
    I do remember that show. Needless to say, any show with that title loses me right off the bat.


  516. “It doesn’t matter that it was Newton. It was the story that was key. It demonstrates that atheists don’t really use basic logical thinking.” Actually all it demonstrates is that Newton wasn’t operating with the current level of scientific knowledge and that he was committing the logical fallacy of begging the question, in Latin petitio principii or “assuming the initial point”. Newton’s entire logic is premised assuming that the universe has a maker. Although he was an unorthodox Christian who dabbled in numerology and the occult, he was nonetheless a staunch believer in God. He had no proof of God’s existence though and proof is a large part of what science is about. It may have been his opinion that a divine maker was required, but it wasn’t science. Logic is a tool. It can and often is misused. This is why logic alone does not a scientific fact make. To wit:

    All sports cars are red.
    All telephones are red.
    Therefore all telephones are sports cars.

    This is an example of a formally logically correct statement (a basic syllogism) that is factual nonsense.

    And now . . . more about the history of science Newton wasn’t privy to: The concept of self-organizing systems, although rooted in antiquity with the Greek atomists who believed matter to be self-organizing without divine intervention and tracable to Descartes (who’s work would have been known by Newton), the term “self-organizing” was first used by Immanuel Kant, born 3 years before Newton’s death. However, self-organizing systems were an insufficiently developed idea that didn’t start to come into its own in the scientific community until the late 40’s in the study of cybernetics (an interdisciplinary study of the structure of regulatory systems overlapping information theory, control theory and systems theory). Self-organization was eventually adopted into general systems theory in the 1960s. It wasn’t until the 70’s and 80’s that the idea became commonplace after being adopted by the physics community. The turning point was when Ilya Prigogine won the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1977 for discovering that the import and dissipation of energy into chemical systems could reverse the maximization of entropy rule imposed by the second law of thermodynamics. It was his dissipative structure theory that led to pioneering research in self-organizing systems in biology during the 80’s and 90’s. This work led to the idea of abiogenesis being the currently accepted process by which non-organic chemistry became organic life in both chemistry and biology.

    Here’s another story for you since you appear to like stories:

    Stephen Hawking, no slouch in the physics world himself, has said in his book, The Grand Design, that the Big Bang was an inevitable consequence of gravity and sets out to contest Sir Isaac Newton’s belief that the universe must have been designed by God as it could not have been created out of chaos. He has the math to back up that claim too. Science is an accretion of knowledge over time. It didn’t start and end with Newton. It’ll go on after Hawking. It’s a continuum.

    Actually, I do have beliefs. I believe I’d like to kiss Emma Stone. I also have other bits of information which have high degrees of certainty attached to them. I have what are known in empirically driven evidence and sound logic dependent circles like law and science as facts and evidence. I know natural selection is a real natural measurable phenomena known to and through science that is not dependent upon some supernatural hocus pocus. You call it minutia? Well if you want to dismiss facts because they don’t confirm your belief system, that’s your choice. I prefer to call it what it is: science fact – observable, measurable, repeatedly testable. But then again, you didn’t know what the word metaphysics actually means or its derivation, so I don’t expect you to know what the word science means either.

    Now let’s contrast what I have with what you have:

    You have a belief backed by a non-sequitur of a Newton story you simply used as a reason for an attack on atheists (many of whom are perfectly able and capable in the area of logic and begging the question that I’m an atheist and/or would find this offensive) and an idea about a gestalt premised on an unprovable supernatural supervening force. You have something there alright, but it isn’t science. Depending on how one looks at that, you appear to have either a ghost story, a fairy tale or a metaphysical proposition with no proof.

    You enjoy your metaphysical ghost story. I’ll enjoy my scientifc facts and evidence.

    However, if you want to attempt to prove a supernatural being invented natural selection or created the universe? Be my guest. I love watching people try to observe, measure and test the supernatural. It’s a hoot. Get back to me when you’ve measured God or your supernatural whatever, observed Him intervening in natural processes and can prove it is Him via repeatable tests. Bring me some evidence. I’m sure Stephen Hawking, Roger Penrose and Kip Thorne would be interested in seeing your evidence too.

    Futility is funny.


  517. Gene,

    “Look at that S-Car-Go”?

    Never mind.


  518. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 8:33 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – You assume too much… How do you know Emma would want to kiss you? (LOL)

    BTW – I told you I used the original Ancient Greek meaning of META PHYSICAL not metaphysics which is totally different from what I was trying to say. I don’t believe in ghosts, the Trinity, Fundamentalist Creationism, and other hocus-pocus. I do believe in the BB theory but I don’t believe it created itself. Something had to create gravity. Nothing had the create the quantum singularity that created everything aka God. Stephen Hawkin only recently started to vocalize his atheism. Probably because of his declining condition which he may improperly blame on YHWH. He once said that he is NOT really an atheist (I think) and that he only objected to people using God to explain everything.

    Einstein also was not really one either. He only objected to the Fundamentalist viewpoint of God which he thought was child-like. I was not ATTACKING atheists. I was only repeating a timeless true story which demonstrates a fundamental lack of true wisdom by some to fashion themselves as “very smart”.

    You can keep saying God doesn’t exist but never vocalize exactly why you feel that way. If you blame that on Fundamentalism I am behind you 100%. But if you base that on your (et al) personal observations of the Universe and the complexity of organic life on Earth and it’s internal interdependencies, I can only go: “HUH?”


  519. Otteray Scribe:

    You can laugh all you want but I dont believe a wolf changed into a whale because it had webbed feet and was therefore able to catch more food in the water. The web foot may become more webbed because that is a trait that is being bred for based on environmental pressure but it is a genetic trait that already exists. The DNA for web feet already produces that trait and over generations may produce better webbing if the genetic code is there but it isnt going to change that web foot into a flipper.

    So what causes the flipper to appear? Since all life on earth comes from the same source I am going to assume that a frog has the same DNA humans have. And that humans could express this frog DNA if something went wrong during gestation or if parental DNA was effected prior to conception. Some chain was suppressed or inserted, etc. then we might see humans with web feet or little small hands.

    So what causes the change of sequence? I think it is some sort of virus or it might be some sort of short circuit in the construction of DNA either in the parents or during gestation.

    Gregor Mendel was dealing with peas and noticing different colors being produced, colors I might add that already existed within the DNA of the plant. My guess is that those peas, millions of years before Mendel, were of a single color and a virus insinuated itself into pea DNA and the pea was then able to produce other colors which became part of its DNA which Mendel then identified as heritable traits millions of years later.

    I can create a Scottish Terrier by selective breeding but I cannot create a whale no matter how many Newfoundlands I cross with Great Danes. There has to be some consistent genetic change over generations to make that transformation. Environmental pressure is not going to do it.


  520. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 8:52 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @rafflaw – Re: NUMB3RS – Well I’m turned off when I see that guy from Taxi. And those two other bozos remind me of Sheldon Cooper of The Big Bang Theory TV show. They are all pompous academics and coincidentally atheists (aka “band-wagoneers”). Why are they? IMHO no one has ever done a pathological (i.e. study of the path) report as to how an atheist, or agnostic, gets to where they are today. Of course there are pet “theories” but no one has really vocalized it in a investigative report. Now… I’m talking about a philosophical viewpoint not plethora of scientific technical regurgitation of other people’s SPECIOUS theories of whatever.

    @Malisha – You are right about dolphin therapy. You could go to a place in Mexico where you can do this. The US Navy has a secret program called MK4 but it is very strange and no one can visit unless you have a clearance. I think they are in CA, LA, and FL. Not sure about other areas. They are using then in Straits of Hormuz right now.

    I went to Sea World in Orlando FL to interact (outside the pool) with wild dolphins. What an experience! I also got totally dissed’ by an Orca*! What a snob! (LOL)

    *The same one that killed that girl – the trainer? I’m glad I didn’t try and interact with it.


  521. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 8:55 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – Actually the program is called U.S. Navy Marine Mammal Program (NMMP). MK4 is just one of 3 dolphin teams (4,7,8). The other 2 are a mixture of seal lions and dolphins.


  522. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 9:15 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Bron – I will admit this… There is a lot mainstream academia DOESN’T KNOW about viruses and mutations. Thanks to our *friends* at Plum Island NY (Dept of Homeland Security – Directorate for Science and Technology) and the illegal* 60+ year old OSS/CIA Operation Overcast/Paperclip (mass defection of WW2 war criminals), the world is being introduced to a lot of mysterious mutated viruses. Thanks to the late Dr. Erich Traub we now have Lyme Disease (released in my state in Old Lyme not far from Plum Island). What’s next? Mutated avian-virus breakout? It seems people like regurgitating other peoples work even if it is nefarious work.

    *POTUS Truman made an ExecOrder which would have made OOPC illegal and incidentally, still is.


  523. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 9:22 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @All – Sorry to bring this thread back on point but here’s the latest:

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/12/2745357/prosecutors-zimmerman-profiled.html

    They are allowing him Jolly Ranchers? Why? Where’s the bread and water? :-)


  524. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 9:42 am sonofthunderboanerges

    Watch: George Zimmerman’s first court appearance (and nervously roll his eyes)

    I think his next court date is: 29May-2012

    His affidavit says he is 5′ 8″ and 180 lbs and he said “punks” not “coons”. Oh well…


  525. Having read “The Tao of Physics” many years ago and from a layman’s perspective keeping up with the developments in modern physics, like “string theory” and Quantum Phyysics I’ve concluded that we really know so little of the workings of the Universe that all things are possible. All things are possible because the Universe, so far defies our understanding.

    Given that, the notion of a “Creator”, or “Creative Force” is as probable as other explanations. Religion, however, except in the use of its rituals meditatively, does turn me off when the allegories of its “Holy Books” are taken literally. The idea that some temporarilly dominant species, on a backward planet, understands the working of this universe via the revealed wisdom in books that have been constantly edited and re-edited for millenia to serve a society’s elite seems silly to me. That in some of these writings there is some philosophical wisdom to be found on how to live ones life makes sense to me. Beyond that the belief that these internally contradictory writings are immutable expressions of creation doesn’t seem convincing.

    Because of the above, I count myself as a deist in that I think the odds are very slightly in favor of a creative force informing the universe. The improbability of the turns in my own life and my current continuing existence
    give me a glimmer of a hope that there are workings in this Universe beyond my ken and that of any other human.


  526. sonofthunderboanerges,

    You’ve mistaken me for 1) somebody who cares if you attack atheists or not – I was merely pointing to the tactic – and 2) somebody impressed by people who make up the meanings to words. The word used was “metaphysics” which has a specific meaning and derivation. Quite frankly, your claim to be using “the original Ancient Greek meaning of META PHYSICAL” is bullshit.

    “I am using it’s root meaning which is: meta- (Greek for higher [than]) and physical (Greek for or the ‘human soul’).”

    The term “metaphysics”, including its conjugation “metaphysical” come from the ancient Greek (which in this instance has the same vocabulary as Medieval Greek) meta (μετά – meaning beyond or the next generation) + fysiki (φυσική – Medieval translation “physika”, meaning “physics” in English or describing the physical processes and phenomena of a particular system or the physical properties and composition of something, derived from the neuter plural form “physikos” meaning “of nature”. The OED defines “metaphysics” as:

    metaphysics /ˌmetəˈfiziks/, n.pl.(sing.),

    the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.

    abstract theory or talk with no basis in reality: his concept of society as an organic entity is, for market liberals, simply metaphysics

    Metaphysics has two main strands: that which holds that what exists lies beyond experience (as argued by Plato), and that which holds that objects of experience constitute the only reality (as argued by Kant, the logical positivists, and Hume). Metaphysics has also concerned itself with a discussion of whether what exists is made of one substance or many, and whether what exists is inevitable or driven by chance.” [emphasis added]

    Oddly enough, your “definition” of the word has no basis in reality too.

    The word for “soul” in ancient Greek is not fysiki. It’s psūkhē (ψυχή) which later translates to psūkhikos and into English as either “soul” or “psyche”. The root of the word “psychology”. The term for “beyond soul” is most accurately translated as “metapsychology /ˈmetəˌsīˈkäləjē/, n., speculation concerning mental processes and the mind-body relationship, beyond what can be studied experimentally.” (OED)

    Therefore the defintion you use for “metaphsyics” (and your explanation of it) is simply made up. Anything that is “beyond nature” in any way is not observable, measurable or repeatedly testable. The phrase “very real and verifiable metaphysical world that exists all around us” is contradictory. Nothing about metaphysics or metapsychology is verifiable and any assertion that it is real is simply an assertion of belief, not fact.

    “You can keep saying God doesn’t exist but never vocalize exactly why you feel that way. ”

    Because there is no scientific evidence to prove that assertion, although you are making a false representation of my position vis a vis a “god”. I didn’t say God or a god does not exist. That’s a straw man. My first contention was that you were misusing and/or didn’t understand the word “metaphysics”. My second contention was that evolution and natural selection are scientific facts that require no divine supervening force to explain the processes. Your statements beg the question (as did Newton’s) that God or a god exists. My statements make no such assumption but instead go to the etymology and meaning of the word “metaphysics” and the testable veracity of evolution and its mechanisms as science. Yours are statements of belief. Mine are statements of historical and empircal fact. As to my actual position on the existence of God, technically I am an agnostic/Deist and my position is best summed up by the Buffalo Springfield lyric “There’s something happinin here/What it is aint exactly clear”. If there is a god, he/she/it is not concerned with what humans do. To think so is the height of anthropomorphic arrogance. If there is a god, this being would be understandable in no human context other than perhaps as Aristotle (and the Deists) defined the idea of a “Prime Mover”. The Bible beyond the words “Let there be” is simply a tool created by men to control other men through supersition, fear and manipulation by and of guilt. This belief is perfectly compatible with the practice of science and does not require faith over proof. However, my beliefs are immaterial to the facts. Just as I believe I’d like to kiss Emma Stone, that belief is irrelevant to the facts of whether she’s amenable to the idea or not. Just so, your belief that natural selection is the metaphysical “hand of God” (I know those aren’t your exact words, but a paraphrase) is immaterial to the scientifically proven fact that no divine supervening factor is required to explain the processes of either evolution in general or natural selection in specific.

    Science is the realm of the real; the quantifiable and testable. Metaphysics and beliefs are the realm of speculation; no proof required or generally possible. Natural selection is science – good science at that – and very real, but it is not a “belief system”.


  527. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 11:18 am Woosty's still a Cat

    HEY! NUMB3RS is an excellent show! And I do believe that much of it is feasible tho real life stuff is probably not so easily crammed into a 1 hour time slot….and as far as G*d is concerned, well you are free to express atheism but s/he may find that to be somewhat arrogant… ;)


  528. SOTB:

    http://www.rense.com/general67/plumislandlyme.htm

    now aint that some shit? fucking government. and they want to control our health care? no fucking way. we would all end up being research monkeys. can you imagine that? 300 million participants in bacteriological or virologY.


  529. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 12:30 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    Bron, I had to clean the sticky off the bottom of my shoes after checking out that web-site….


  530. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 4:40 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Mike Spindell – Very eloquently put!


  531. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 4:45 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – OK Gene this hill isn’t worth taking. I think everybody *knew* what I meant – a higher power. I will concede to you on this to keep the peace. I thought we agreed that we were both done with this topic. Can we now climb back on George Zimmerman the actual topic of this thread? Any comments about that? I would be interested in your P.O.V. on that topic – really.


  532. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 5:11 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Bron – Just for the record this sh*t was not started by the Obama Administration. This dates back to President Truman and every POTUS since then. Guess what? They want to move to the middle of CONUS. They are prepping for it now. It is being vehemently opposed in Congress though. Why do we need Biological Warfare anyway? Isn’t it the same as nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction? The British started using BIOW on Native Americans in the 17-18th c. (I think) with smallpox infected blankets and in the 1960’s BIOW was tested on US citizens (w/o informed consent) in the NYC subways with pathogen-filled light bulbs and in Minnesota out of a hospital smoke stack. Now the US Navy wants to force a cow blood substitute (HBOC-201) on Americans WITHOUT inform consent. The FDA said No f***ing way! I guess the USN never heard of BSE?

    Oh and BTW remember that bout of H3N2 Flu (or some sort of influenza) you had back in the late-60’s. Well you can thank the Soviets (i.e. Brezhnev) for that. Straight from the jet stream over Novaya Zemlya. Take massive doses of L-ascorbic acid (from Rose Hips) daily on a full stomach (if you can tolerate it). Walmart sells it cheap. It’s a antioxidant prophylaxis not a remedy. So start early!


  533. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 5:25 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – By implying that God could be a “SHE” implies that you think this supernatural entity is HUMAN. That’s called anthropomorphism. I know you object to the use of the English Pronoun: HE. But if you check the origins of that pronoun I THINK you will see that it was a gender-less expression. Since YHWH (God) ARGUABLY created humans with genitalia and procreative organs does not infer that He himself is a male human. A Catholic priest named Athanasius of Alexandria was the first person to invent the concept of *Trinity* which BTW the word does not appear in the Bible. This concept falsely has one believe that Jesus is also Almighty God and Jesus was a human in the 1st c. CE. However, Jesus routinely prayed and worshiped a non-human supernatural “meta”-“physical” (or higher lifeform – not to be confused with metaphysics) being OTHER than himself known to him, and us, as YHWH (or Yahweh : Hebrew:The one that causes).


  534. “OK Gene this hill isn’t worth taking. I think everybody *knew* what I meant – a higher power. I will concede to you on this to keep the peace.”

    Oooo. A non-capitulation capitulation. One usually has to talk to a professional politician to see one of those.

    “I thought we agreed that we were both done with this topic.”

    Agreement requirese mutual consent. I said I was happy to drop the topic, but you continued on the topic and then agreed for me. Your contintuation and invalid consent-by-proxy pretty much guaranteed I was going to continue at that point.

    “Can we now climb back on George Zimmerman the actual topic of this thread? Any comments about that? I would be interested in your P.O.V. on that topic – really.”

    Sure. As I said, I’m perfectly willing to drop the other subject. On the Martin case, I think right now, the right thing has been done and appropriate charges have been filed based upon the circumstances. A great injustice due to what looked to be the “good ol’ boy” network in play giving Zimmerman a walk has been avoided. Now the challenge is to see that Zimmerman get a fair trial given the media frezy that has developed around this case. The evidence needs to be presented. The arguments need to be made. A judgment on that evidence and arguments needs to had that is impartial and fair no matter where the evidence leads.


  535. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 5:40 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Bron – Oh and BTW your Rense.com web link is NOT the entire story on Plum Island. They have a lot of explaining to do to the US public when the local police dept. not only was called to a horribly deformed Australian Wombat on the shore not to long ago, but now a horribly deformed MAN washed up too. He was in common street clothes, young, African-American male, and of large build at 6′. They have no idea who he was but just like the Wombat his fingers where elongated to grotesque sizes. Huffington Post 15-Jan-2010


  536. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 5:54 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – Yes I feel happy with the SpecProc’s actions and remarks recently. However, I think she is aiming a little high with the Murder 2 when it’s more like a Manslaughter 1, but I think I see her strategy. Aim high giving her some wiggle room with GZ’s attorney when he comes into her office to “do a deal”. If she gets a Murder 2 he could get life. But with Man1 he could get 30+ because it involved a child and a gun (they tack on extra for that). Either way he’ll be a very old man before he gets parole.

    Oh and BTW I accepted your drop-it proposal tacitly. Please do not think I’m tacitly inviting you into another loggeria-style debate if I should inadvertently bring the topic up again with *others*. I think all of us know where you stand on that debate. I will not be baiting you… trust me…


  537. on 1, April 13, 2012 at 6:09 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – I really didn’t say that NUMB3RS is an awful TV show. I just don’t like 3 actors in it. They use a real mathematician as a consultant but I just know he cringes every time those 2 fakers start pontificating about how a psychopath will act. Everyone needs to Wikipedia that word “psychopath”. It’s not what you think it means. We US taxpayers allow the hiring of psychopaths in our intelligence community to protect our national security. With the exception of Ollie North and G. Gordon Liddy (et al) we need them – so to speak. I dig any TV show about FBI stuff though. My favorite is Burn Notice on USA Network.


  538. Darwins’ Theory has always made sense to me to the point I accept it as conceptually true. However, that being said I don’t think it negates the possibility of a creative force informing the Universe. Nevertheless Genesis has always bugged me due to its internal inconsistencies. It can only be seen as allegory, a form which our ancestor’s understood far better than we do. The imprimatur of making allegory into history was laid down to keep the masses in their places, by misinterpreting the message in the allegory.

    Goodnight all, long drive over this weekend and I’ll be out of touch. I’ve really enjoyed this thread so far.


  539. Mike Spindell, Hi, How are you?

    Today I couldn’t help looking for a book. (I had spent nearly an hour speaking with a judge and was going to spend an hour working with an independent Arab journalist on an article about Yemen and in between the two activities, I thought, “Wow, why don’t I try to read something to educate myself about the thread’s recent discussion about god and all that?”) So I picked up The Religious Case Against Belief by James P. Carse (Penguin Press, London, 2008). I know, I still don’t do citations right.

    So here, on p. 12:

    “Galileo was dedicated to the truth however it emerged. But what we see in his life is that there is no end of truths, and not one of them beyond challenge. There is always something new and unexpected to be learned. What drove him, in other words, was not his knowledge but his ignorance. He KNEW that he did not know. He also knew he never would know it all.”

    Perhaps I will read the rest of the book after devoting 30 days to a project related to the never-ending-litigation. Anyway, it will be a gift in the end. I cheat that way. I buy a book, read it, and then give it to someone as a gift! Techniques of the poor and stingy.

    I never remember really being curious about how we got here. For a few years, when I was very young and impressed with the idea that there were great thoughts in the world that everyone HAD to have opinions about, I tried to bully myself into forming beliefs about things that I had neither studied nor felt curious about (please don’t call the grammar police on me), but I can’t even remember what I came up with, if anything. I think Pascal’s formula ws probably the most interesting one: the chance of god is so tiny, but the possibility so rich, that if you multiply the two you really come up with a significant thing. He didn’t say it in that clumsy fashion; I was lazy to look it up on the www while typing; I had the Carse book right here in front of me at the time I sat down to write.

    Haiku God

    Perfect weather, light,
    my shape fitting in the world,
    Do pleasures say God?

    Any other day,
    brutal cold, marauding sun,
    Am I abandoned?


  540. Malisha,

    Budding trees abound
    I steel myself for long drive
    going home good night.


  541. Haiku Trayvon

    Drizzle, suspicion.
    Are these the ingredients?
    Enemy: Stand Still!

    (Florida winter,
    Air can be unwelcoming
    to a skinny kid.)

    Thuds, heavy breathing.
    What am I to you, stranger?
    Yet the night is calm.

    “Tree grows in Brooklyn”
    And in Theresienstadt,
    still there were flowers.

    Grass we could roll in,
    hedges we pull the leaves off,
    Someone’s azalea–

    Was it sand and beach?
    A climb up some steep mountain?
    Visit, memories.

    Air quality: good.
    Young man, you could keep breathing
    If you were not shot.


  542. on 1, April 14, 2012 at 10:22 am Woosty's still a Cat

    sonofthunderboanerges1, April 13, 2012 at 5:25 pm
    ——————————————————————–
    I’m fine w/YHVH…..and yes, the one that causes, that is All around, about, within, with-out, that re-causes…that 1 is the 1 I was referring to….. I have no clue what sex s/he is…maybe ALL of them! (maybe some I don’t even know about yet…. ;)


  543. on 1, April 14, 2012 at 10:03 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – My salient point was He is NONE of them. BTW IMO He has a specific spatial location in the Universe within our galaxy and is not “everywhere” as Christendom falsely has taught the masses. PROOF? Proof is like stinkin’ badges:


  544. on 1, April 14, 2012 at 10:30 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Mike Spindell – “Darwins’ Theory has always made sense to me to the point I accept it as conceptually true.”

    I personally think it’s TRUE title sums up what it was really all about:

    “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.”
    Can you spell Eugenics?

    “However, that being said I don’t think it negates the possibility of a creative force informing the Universe.”

    I think Darwin was an evolved agnostic. He started off as a Protestant minister in training. However, he used faulty empirical data to arrive there IMO. The death of his daughter Anne was the fault of the unfortunate happenstance of mycobacterium not his chosen deity.

    “Nevertheless Genesis has always bugged me due to its internal inconsistencies.”

    Sorry… I just don’t think those were “inconsistencies”. More like reader misunderstandings based on an outdated Old English version of a 17th century Protestant translation from a politically corrupt British King (from the house of Stuart).

    “It can only be seen as allegory, a form which our ancestor’s understood far better than we do. The imprimatur of making allegory into history was laid down to keep the masses in their places, by misinterpreting the message in the allegory.”

    To the unenlightened reader I would agree it would appear that way. However, if it weren’t for a certain 17th century CE DETOUR (i.e. KJV) and Roman Catholic misdirections (i.e. Douay Version) I think readers would not see Moses divinely inspired work as simply an “allegory”. Organized religion has a lot to account for over 1,600 years of confusing the masses with their own hidden agenda versions of God’s word; twisting our true history of our origins into easily ridiculed quasi-fairy tales. Atheists invariably love pointing out the 6,000 year old Earth fairy-tale invented by their timeless misunderstanding of Moses’ words.


  545. sonofthunderboanerges,

    “’On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.’
    Can you spell Eugenics?”

    Not only can I spell eugenics, I know what it means.

    Eugenics is an applied science/social movement that advocates the genetic manipulation of the composition of populations, usually human, to “improve” them through intervention. It’s a political polemic misusing the work of Darwin to justify all manner of horrific medical and social mistreatment of “other” people just as social Darwinism misues the work of Darwin to justify all manner of social and economic cruelty against “other” people. It is not evolution. It is not the work proper of Darwin which described a natural process, but it does not advocate human intervention into the process. Your statement is a false equivalence. If you want to slander others works for the evils done under the guise of eugenics, you’d have a better case slandering Mendel or the practice of animal husbandry and even then you wouldn’t have a case for your false equivalence. Blaming Darwin for the abuses done under the name of eugenics is like blaming Einstein for the work of Oppenheimer. Darwin, like Einstein, had a theory. He made a tool for understanding and explaining a natural process. Like any tool, it can be abused by other men with agendas all their own – something that seems to set you off in dealing with a book of fairy tales, but doesn’t seem to bother you at all when it comes to science and scientists. I love the smell of false equivalences mixed with hypocrisy. It smells . . . just like bullshit.

    Speaking of bullshit . . .

    “However, he used faulty empirical data to arrive there IMO.”

    It’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There is more evidence in the form of valid empirical data proving that Darwin was right about natural selection and evolution than a reasonable man would argue against at this point. Whereas all those who would disprove or falsify evolution and/or natural selection have exactly zero proof to back their assertions other than their beliefs. You can have your opinion and express it all you like, but without proof of your assertions, it remains opinion founded in belief, not an assertion of fact. If you have evidence Darwin’s methodology was flawed, produce it. Otherwise, be content that people who actually understand the nature and practice of science and the scientific method are going to dismiss your opinion and rightfully so as a form of wishful thinking.

    You really should not use words you don’t properly understand, but then again, when you operate off of beliefs instead of empirical evidence, neither reasonableness nor proper understanding are required. Just faith.

    By the way, asking a Jew if they can spell eugenics considering what was done to their people by the Nazis under the polemic of eugenics is the very height of tact. Good show. Can you spell sarcasm?

    But by all means, please, do continue to “enlighten” us. That word. “Enlighten”.

    That seems to be a recurring theme within your posts.


  546. SoTB,
    I’m Jewish and also have a fair understanding of history. Why would you think I’d rely on the King James Bible, or indeed any Christian interpretation of the Torah? I’ve read Genesis and I’ve discussed it in Shul. To me it is internally inconsistent and obviously an allegory. As for trying to pin eugenics on Darwin I think you’re off base. Your analogy would blame Jesus for let’s say the Inquisition and that would be illogical. As Gene mentioned Jews have a shall we say morbid interest in the eugenics movement and some of the evil it’s done.


  547. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 12:10 am Woosty's still a Cat

    sonofthunderboanerges1, April 14, 2012 at 10:03 pm

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – My salient point was He is NONE of them. BTW IMO He has a specific spatial location in the Universe within our galaxy and is not “everywhere” as Christendom falsely has taught the masses. PROOF? Proof is like stinkin’ badges:
    ———————————————————
    My salient point is S/He is ALL of them, and more.

    you say,

    “He has a specific spatial location in the Universe within our galaxy …”

    really? got co-ordinates? I would dearly love to know where to bring my many offerrings….


  548. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 12:13 am Woosty's still a Cat

    sonofthunderboanerges1,

    what’s a ‘boanerges1’… ?

    …sounds a tad earthy, like a specific spatial location in the Universe within our galaxy …….


  549. Woosty,
    I am sure Google maps can find him/her!


  550. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 12:42 am Woosty's still a Cat

    rafflaw1, April 15, 2012 at 12:18 am
    ———————————————- :)

    I’ll just keep praying…


  551. Good luck with that Woosty ! Gotta turn off now. Big Tstorms coming thru.


  552. I’m a Jew too but I will have to confess that, in spite of a non-Jew lawyer economist friend of mine (and a sadly deceased Jesuit-trained historian therapist friend of mine too) both believing that my ancestry (or lineage or something) should give me all kinds of intellectual enhancements, I have no idea what ANYBODY is talking about any more.

    That is, I thought I had pretty good control of my comprehension of the ten-minute segment in Sanford on 2/26/2012 and even for that I had to study pretty intensely at first, but then it got hard for me and I took short cuts like looking up Darwin on Google. (BTW “Darwin on Google” and “Coons to Punks” both sound like good short story titles to me.)

    What occurred to me back in, oh, maybe 1988 (when I thought it was important to do some religion-related stuff so my kid could have the benefit of the exposure), was that the origins of the universe [sic] might or might not imply deliberate creation (a phrase I understand much better than “intelligent design”) but even if they did, that left open the questions of what the creator(s) was and, more, what its existence implied or, especially, demanded from ME (and my kid). So I reached:

    Is there god?
    What is (are) god?
    Why would anybody presume god is all-knowing, all-powerful and/or all-good?
    Even if god were all-knowing, all-powerful and/or all-good, why would it want ME (who is none of the above) to “worship”?
    How does god WANT, anyway?

    And finally, I came down to:

    Whatever god may or may not be, it is NOT a “good mother.”

    Which led me to: “Damn! I really wish god both WERE and WERE a good mother!”

    Which led to my putting all these thoughts away because at the time I was busy and they were giving me a headache.

    Don’t worry, I’m much better now. Some scientist invented aspirin.


  553. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 9:23 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – I guess it’s no coincidence that Darwin’s cousin, Francis Galton – the inventor of Eugenics, was also under the employ of the Linnaeus Society of London? I mean come on: “…FAVOURED RACES…”? Do you need glasses to see the elephant standing in the kitchen? (In case “some” savants have trouble with sardonic humor that contained some of it). BTW “belief” has a generic dictionary definition. You should check one of those books out some day… We don’t need to discuss this by hijacking this thread again. However, I’ll try and slough through you loggeria-style-essay AGAIN! I know you have something important to say! I just wish the NSA/CSS would let me download their KODA text-similarity measure software… :-)

    @Mike Spindell – Of course I had no idea what your religion was. Suffice it to say I still see no inconsistencies that can’t be explained by environmental and personal “self-admitted” cognitive shortcomings of Moses. Being that I am not aware of what inconsistencies you refer to I wont attempt to guess at them. Definition INCONSISTENT: Adjective – “Not staying the same throughout; having self-contradictory elements.” I just don’t agree with that assertion about Moses’ work.

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – I believe that the scriptural record is clear that He is not human and not everywhere and is in a specific location He calls the MOST HOLY within a invisible realm in outer space He calls HEAVEN. Now Organized Religion has arguably destroyed the credibility of that divine word and non-believers, and some believers, totally misunderstand it’s true meaning. And yes I could point you to probable or theoretical location on a interstellar map based on certain scriptural clues/hints I’ve read, but it would just be my wholly esoteric opinion, hence probably not at all valid; as you the hell am I… right? :-)

    @Malisha – For the record I was willing to drop this subject I started and stick to GZ. Still am. However, I do like intellectual debate though. I just wish we had a forum to go essay-style loggeria. I know three of us are EXPERTS at loggeria. Sorry… Your OK and I’m OK (I hope)… :-)


  554. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 9:35 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – Oops I meant WHO the hell am I? And on that note what does BOANERGES mean? Hebrew: bene reghesh or “sons of thunder”. A certain 1 c. C.E. Jewish Messianic carpenter used this arguably tongue-in-cheek phrase to refer to two hot-head or vociferous preachers or orators who were “trying” to following his lead – namely James and John at Mark 3:17. Yes I am a hot-head and quite vociferous (or quite noisy) – you didn’t notice? :-) Hence the moniker fits – no?


  555. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 9:52 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – For the record I was NOT blaming Darwin for Eugenics. I was blaming the Linnaeus Society of London (which still exists today). And are you suggesting that Albert Einstein played no active role in the once top-secret Manhattan Project? Seriously? I suppose you never heard of the Einstein letters to (POTUS) F.D.R. from 1939 onward? And that he was also 1 of the 200,000 employees of the once top-secret project? Of course he took a different standing after 1950 but he clearly worked WITH Fermi, Feynman, Openheimer, Urey (et al) in the early years.


  556. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 10:18 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – You appear to have a reading comprehension deficit as well as a basic lack of understanding for basic dictionary definitions. Case in point: “However, he used faulty empirical data to arrive there IMO.” You took this sentence of mine TOTALLY out of context. I was not necessarily referring to Darwin’s work product. I was referring to his “Protestant minister training” as I thought the sense stress was quite apparent.

    I feel that, with the help of Organized Christianity (Fundamentalism), he came to false conclusions (as do you) about the META – PHYSICAL* SUPER – NATURAL* entity known as YAHWEH and His Messianic son Yeshua, incorrectly placing contributory-blame on Him/them for his 5-year old daughter’s death by Tuberculosis. IMO this arguably lead to his full break with Christendom and his ostensible “deal with the devil” – namely The Linnaeus Society who bankrolled his and his cousin’s Galt’s work. Am I implying an almost 2 century hidden-agenda-conspiracy? Hell yeah!

    *those words have ACTUAL dictionary meanings (as does the word “belief”) contrary to what you frequently copy and paste.

    Also I would think you’d look more intelligent if you cease from the arguably puerile ad hominem approach to debating with me. It doesn’t become you or your view-points well.


  557. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 10:28 am Woosty's still a Cat

    “We US taxpayers allow the hiring of psychopaths in our intelligence community to protect our national security. With the exception of Ollie North and G. Gordon Liddy (et al) we need them – so to speak.”~sonofthunderboanerges(on psychopaths)
    —————————-
    sonofthunderboanerges,
    No, we don’t.
    We really don’t.
    And they *know* it or there would be a National ‘Psychpath’ club, tax breaks and certificates and kudos and stuff…. in the forces a battalion w/medals and etc.

    It may be but it is not ‘allowed’ or sanctioned by American taxpayers any more than corporate Psychopaths are allowed and sanctioned by anyone.

    This is not a subtle distinction….the behavior that defines ‘psychopaths’ is illegal.


  558. sonofthunderboanerges,

    “We don’t need to discuss this by hijacking this thread again.”

    Then perhaps you should quit bringing it up. You seem to have a faulty definition of the word “causation” too. As to the dictionary definition of the word belief, they also have one for the word fact. You should check that out some time. Like now:

    belief \bə-ˈlēf\, n.,

    1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
    2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
    3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

    fact \ˈfakt\, n.,

    1: a thing done: as a obsolete : feat b : crime c archaic : action
    2archaic : performance, doing
    3: the quality of being actual : actuality
    4a : something that has actual existence b : an actual occurrence
    5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality

    While we’re at it, let’s look at the word “conviction”.

    conviction \kən-ˈvik-shən\

    1: the act or process of finding a person guilty of a crime especially in a court of law
    2a : the act of convincing a person of error or of compelling the admission of a truth b : the state of being convinced of error or compelled to admit the truth
    3a : a strong persuasion or belief b : the state of being convinced

    Your inability to rationally, logically and empirically evaluate scientific evidence and choosing to state your beliefs in the form of fact does not make your beliefs a scientific fact. It just means you believe what you believe. You can’t prove any of it. Unless, of course, you are indeed sitting on some evidence that Darwin’s methodology was wrong or have proof that contradicts evolution and/or natural selection as correct interpretations of natural processes.

    In re: Darwin and the title of his work – Back peddle much? That his cousin coined the term “eugenics” is immaterial. Galton also recognized the topic as an area of study, not an applied science and that the idea had limitations. Your original statement is still a false equivalence. An attempt to demonize Darwin by association. In short, not only an erroneous belief, but propaganda as well.

    And, yes, I’m quite familiar with Einstein’s letter to FDR. In case you haven’t figured it out yet, not only do I find science interesting, but the history of science as well. As to your assertion of Einstein working on the Manhattan Project? The fact of the matter is that in July of 1940, U.S. Army Intelligence determined Einstein was a security risk and denied him clearance to work on the project. In fact, those working on the project were forbidden from consulting Einstein on the project.

    Is there anything else you’d care to be proven wrong about? Or would you really like to return to the proper subject of this thread now? Either way is fine with me.


  559. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 10:37 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – I am obviously sloughing through your post piecemeal. As much as I love Mandy Patinkin (and that particular movie: The Princess Bride (1987)), I really don’t think it was applicable to my use of the adjective “Enlighten”. Of course it has two meanings: 1) Give someone greater knowledge and understanding about a subject or situation and 2) Give someone spiritual knowledge or insight.

    Judging that that was a basic DICTIONARY definition I feel that my attempts to enlighten fall within either 1 or 2 or both. Of course I can not somehow “divine” someone’s religion over the Internet hence I did not know Mike was Jewish. But how is that relevant to my posting? I also posit here that Hitler used Galton’s Eugenics and Darwin’s “…FAVORED RACES…” theory to support his attack on the Jews and other lessor-known religions and peoples. So your “to the man” attack on me about lack of “tact” is a typical, for you, a non sequitur comment, IMO of course.


  560. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 10:39 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – Oops I meant enlighten is a VERB not ADJECTIVE… my bad!


  561. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 10:45 am Woosty's still a Cat


  562. “1) Give someone greater knowledge and understanding about a subject or situation and 2) Give someone spiritual knowledge or insight.”

    None of which bears to the veracity of said knowledge. You beg the question you’re right in your belief that your knowledge is factual when time and again it has been shown that it isn’t. Your knowledge is simply your beliefs. You have yet to prove any of them factually correct.

    “I also posit here that Hitler used Galton’s Eugenics and Darwin’s “…FAVORED RACES…” theory to support his attack on the Jews and other lessor-known religions and peoples.”

    Again, immaterial, a false equivalence and an attempt at demonization.

    “So your ‘to the man’ attack on me about lack of ‘tact’ is a typical, for you, a non sequitur comment, IMO of course.”

    I’m pretty sure your opinions are worthless at this point since none of them appear to be backed by fact. You should also distinguish when a statement is to your statement and not yourself because parroting the English for ad hominem doens’t mean you understand the nature of the term. “By the way, asking a Jew if they can spell eugenics considering what was done to their people by the Nazis under the polemic of eugenics is the very height of tact. Good show. Can you spell sarcasm?” Goes directly to your statement. You as a man are not mentioned at all in that statement. If I’d had said you’re a tactless fucking idiot, that would have been to the man. Really . . . definitions are a most basic form of information. When your definitions are faulty, anything else you say is built on a foundation of sand.


  563. W=^..^
    :D


  564. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 10:59 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – Yes I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should not be employing federal or paramilitary contractors who suffer from some mental disorder. Obviously you did not look up the Wikipedia definition for PSYCHOPATHY. I was referring to the characteristic personality dimensions of high functioning PP’s: Lack of empathy, shallowness of emotion, lying and manipulation, impulsivity, irresponsibility, low tolerance for boredom, parasitic lifestyle, lack of remorse, grandiosity, unrealistic long-term goals, and moral judgment or amoral.

    All these things could describe an active and successful NOC (Non-Official-Cover) CIA Officer in the field. In fact they often refer to themselves as PP’s. Sociopaths are a totally different subject. That MAY describe George Zimmerman I dunno’. Certainly Ollie North and Liddy are the lower-order of PP’s who don’t really believe in ANY legal accountability for their past actions abroad and CONUS. And yet there are still some out there just like them.

    I would say that Mr. Obama’s PP’s deployed recently to Abbotsbad Pakistan to finish a “mistake” made by earlier PP’s in the 1980’s in Afghanistan was warranted.


  565. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 11:10 am Woosty's still a Cat

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – I believe that the scriptural record is clear that He is not human and not everywhere and is in a specific location He calls the MOST HOLY within a invisible realm in outer space He calls HEAVEN. Now Organized Religion has arguably destroyed the credibility of that divine word and non-believers, and some believers, totally misunderstand it’s true meaning. And yes I could point you to probable or theoretical location on a interstellar map based on certain scriptural clues/hints I’ve read, but it would just be my wholly esoteric opinion, hence probably not at all valid; as you the hell am I… right?
    ————————————————-
    from the-tabernacle-place;
    ‘The Holy of Holies is a representation of heaven itself, God’s dwelling place, which we have access now through Christ. In Revelations, John’s vision of heaven — the New Jerusalem — also was a perfect square, just as the Holy of Holies was (Revelation 21:16).

    “For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. …But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.” (Hebrews 9:24-26)’

    Which to me makes it look more like a time than a place….the place happens throughout time in differing places for each soul that passes through the sight of G*d (thanks to the sacrifice of Christ…) hence, all places and all time (kind of like all for 1 and 1 for all…).

    But I would like to see your scripture supporting and also the co-ordinates you have mapped.
    and TY for the conversation…and the smiley :)


  566. W=^..^

    All places are times and all times are places. The bifurcation of space and time ended with relativity. Only in non-relativistic classical physics is the use of Euclidian space instead of spacetime appropriate. In relativistic physics, time cannot be discrete from space as velocity and gravity both affect the passage of time. Not to put too fine a point on it. ;)


  567. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 11:34 am Woosty's still a Cat

    “Obviously you did not look up the Wikipedia definition for PSYCHOPATHY.”~Sonofnametoolongtoremember
    —————————————————————–
    That is exactly what I looked up, or to be more precise, I looked up Psychopath on Wikipedia and was (Redirected from Psychopath) to wit;

    Psychopathy…… –

    Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/[1][2] from the Ancient Greek ψυχή “psyche”, -soul and πάθος “pathos” -passion) is a personality disorder characterized by a pervasive pattern of disregard for the rights of others and the rules of society. [this being the germain part...]

    and;

    Psychopaths have a total lack of empathy and remorse, and have very shallow emotions. They are generally regarded as callous, selfish, dishonest, arrogant, aggressive, impulsive, irresponsible, and hedonistic.


  568. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 11:43 am Woosty's still a Cat

    Gene H.1, April 15, 2012 at 11:26 am

    W=^..^
    ————————————————
    I’m not going to pretend to understand everything you just said but, when the element of a person(and ea person as in people) is considered, does this not render the potentiality of the Holy of Holies (ie: dwelling place of G*d) as being everywhere, when ‘at some point in time’ is taken into the consideration….and therefore, if located ‘within’ a given person, and within another given person….therefore becomes, within and without above and below before and to come…. the Merkabah…. then, replace ea person with an atom…..


  569. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 11:43 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – WOW! this is like pulling teeth!

    OK I will copy your style and use paragraphical quoted replies (aka loggeria):

    “1) Give someone greater knowledge and understanding about a subject or situation and 2) Give someone spiritual knowledge or insight.”

    None of which bears to the veracity of said knowledge. You beg the question you’re right in your belief that your knowledge is factual when time and again it has been shown that it isn’t. Your knowledge is simply your beliefs. You have yet to prove any of them factually correct.”

    No not really. I should have said ATTEMPT to give… No burden of VERACITY is needed when stating an OPINION about an asserted “knowledge”. That’s what I’ve been doing here. I try NOT to be absolute as you are doing. Proof is subjective – esp. for ppl like you who keep raising the bar every time an Internet citation of *evidence* is offered. That’s why I’m trying to stay UN-cited for now because you would just fail to understand the *gestalt* of it all and stick to the minutiae (or the smaller parts of a whole). BTW minutiae is not a pejorative term as you seem to think.Do you actually have a dictionary?

    “I also posit here that Hitler used Galton’s Eugenics and Darwin’s “…FAVORED RACES…” theory to support his attack on the Jews and other lessor-known religions and peoples.”

    Again, immaterial, a false equivalence and an attempt at demonization.”

    Yes a demonetization of Hitler and Linnaeus. Was I not clear on that? It is an INFORMED opinion which you can check my alleged facts with an Open Source Internet Search.

    “So your ‘to the man’ attack on me about lack of ‘tact’ is a typical, for you, a non sequitur comment, IMO of course.”

    “I’m pretty sure your opinions are worthless at this point since none of them appear to be backed by fact.”

    Again with the non sequitur. Why would I need to CITE anything (i.e. evidence toward your need for subjective proof) to someone who does not value my opinion because he falsely and (arguably) arrogantly thinks I am a low-hanging-fruit-target of Fundamentalist Creationism? Your comment that it is “worthless” is very subjective. Worthless to who? You? How is that important or even relevant?

    “You should also distinguish when a statement is to your statement and not yourself because parroting the English for ad hominem doens’t mean you understand the nature of the term.”

    Do you actually have a dictionary? Try using it. Ad hominem basically means you are attacking ME for what you feel is my persona. You are not actually attacking my point-of-view as you have not demonstrated ONCE that you fully understand it. You just keep sending out copy & pasted talking points that sound like Richard Dawkins regurgitations and not actually based on any cogent argument about my subject matter.

    “By the way, asking a Jew [BTW - I said I didn't have pre-knowledge of that and I think you knew that too] if they can spell eugenics considering what was done to their people by the Nazis under the polemic of eugenics is the very height of tact. Good show. Can you spell sarcasm?” Goes directly to your statement. You as a man are not mentioned [Actually tacitly I am] at all in that statement. If I’d had said you’re a tactless fucking idiot, that would have been to the man. Really . . . definitions are a most basic form of information. When your definitions are faulty, anything else you say is built on a foundation of sand.”

    So let me get this straight: You feel that I feel that EVERY comment (and sub-part of said comment) in your posting was ad hominem (attacking me for just being me)? And MY defintions are faulty? Let’s see that would be a scathing indictment against Webster et al.

    I hope your profession isn’t some critical public safety scenario that involves some sort of intellectual acumen. Yes that was ad hominem! Quid pro quo…sorry…

    @Otteray Scribe – I know your watching this and LYAO! I know he’s your I-buddie and all but I tried playing nicely in the SAND box. He is making it hard for me to remain civil and not show my true Boarnerges self. But I will do it for you OS and Malisha. Sheesh!


  570. ALL (I can’t remember who said what to whom any more), I never meant to suggest that we shouldn’t discuss god on a Trayvon blog, only that I was in over my head to understand the stuff that was flying into print so fast. (That’s especially true since it was encompassing god, history, history of god, Darwin, science, development, history, god, evolution, almost got to paradigms there for a minute…)

    Which reminds me. I really believe that the e-mail activity, and its related blogging activity, is conducive to people actually misunderstanding each others’ words, because we’re going so fast, we’re editing so little (if at all) and we’re kind of “hot-mediuming” with communications that can turn into big diverse units. I’m no psycholinguist. Mostly, I’m a typist if I’m definably anything at all. I do feel good while my fingers are making thoughts appear to be understandable to someone. So I think about some of the out-and-out conflicts that have arisen on this blog and I speculate that some of them — particularly the ones that have gone ad hominem — have resulted partly from the fact that we don’t mean exactly what we say when we’re doing what I’m doing now. But don’t quote me on that.

    But to an idea that has been recently suggested about a sort of “let’s go where our conversation leads us” blogging activity. Years back I began to get annoyed that I didn’t have the kind of home and the kind of money that would have let me set up and run a kind of European-style (who knows if they do it now, although they seemed to have done it during Proust’s lifetime) “salon” where people just got together and talked about whatever they wished, and there was no actual purpose, thus no by-laws, yada.

    This is nowadays possible in virtual reality. I can even post pictures I claim to be the house it takes place in! (No I can’t, don’t know how, but…)

    Why doesn’t someone here who has the technological knowledge and capacity set up some sort of blog and make it a blogger-invited forum and all like that? Or is it up already and I don’t know about it? Or what?

    Of course, there’s nothing wrong with posting stuff on a legal, even constitutional, blog that may be thought of as “other than” its targeted subjects. In fact, while we have nobody making rulings on motions in limine, we can get away with — [well not murder, not even second degree, it seems] — lots of other stuff.

    The Friends (Quakers) refer to the “that of god in each of us” and that may have to do with the location issue. But I like a short story called “The Aleph” that spoke of a certain geographical location, quite small, in someone’s house, in which the entire universe was contained. Many houses I have been in do not have those spots within them, though.


  571. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 12:01 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – Yes I agree with your posting about psychopath’s. And i still posit that CIA officers and operatives with that personality trait seems to be a “necessary evil” in this uncertain world of global terrorism. And what Gene H is referring too is ANOTHER imperfect human’s so-called understanding of “space and time”. He likes quoting other people’s work as absolute fact when IN FACT it is still just a theory. Just because mainstream academia says “Yes it is!” He jumps on the bandwagon parroting something no man really understands fully.

    That’s not to say that I agree with your understanding of God, who He is, and where He is. I just don’t want to go into another session of textual verbosity I nickname loggeria. I’m sure I could cite several scriptures to support my understanding but not here.

    Also my ESOTERIC theory of interstellar locale of heaven is simply that – ESOTERIC which means: “Intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.” Hence it would involve probably a plethora of essay like discussions, arguments, and idle speculation. I probably shouldn’t even have brought it up. Sorry…


  572. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 12:05 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    Gene H.1, April 15, 2012 at 11:26 am

    W=^..^
    ————————————–
    I should have just agreed and left it at that….because…

    “All places are times and all times are places.”

    exactly proves my point! ;)


  573. sonofthunderboanerges,

    “No not really. I should have said ATTEMPT to give… No burden of VERACITY is needed when stating an OPINION about an asserted ‘knowledge’.”

    Attempt has nothing to do with it. As to burden of veracity? Tecnhnically true that is not required that your opinions be truthful, but then again, that weighs against the value to be placed in your opinions as expressed. Knoweldge is information with a high degree of certainty attached to it, but when your certainty is based on belief rather than empirical evidence, again it weighs against the value to placed in your opinions and to the vaule of the ‘knowledge’ upon which you opine.

    “Proof is subjective”

    No, it’s not. Proof is objective. A=A. That’s why it’s called proof. Facts are called facts because they have objective proof of their reality.

    “Do you actually have a dictionary? Try using it. Ad hominem basically means you are attacking ME for what you feel is my persona.”

    Said the guy who has made up defintions several times now. Not only do I own many dictionaries, I know how to use them all and much better than you by the sum of the evidence presented on this thread to date. Argumentum ad hominem is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic of the person supporting it. What I said was clearly and plainly about the nature of your statement and not a claim about you. Just so, everything else I’ve stated has been to your statements of your beleifs as if they were assertions of fact when they are demonstrably not. Feel free to beleive whatever you like. Feel free to say what you like about your beliefs. Don’t expect them to go unchallenged. I don’t care about your persona. I’m interested in your fallacious and/or erroneous statements. You have the right to your opinions. You do not have the right to have them not challenged. If that’s what you think? Boy howdy, have you come to the wrong place.

    “‘By the way, asking a Jew [BTW - I said I didn't have pre-knowledge of that and I think you knew that too] if they can spell eugenics considering what was done to their people by the Nazis under the polemic of eugenics is the very height of tact. Good show. Can you spell sarcasm?” Goes directly to your statement. You as a man are not mentioned [Actually tacitly I am] at all in that statement. If I’d had said you’re a tactless fucking idiot, that would have been to the man. Really . . . definitions are a most basic form of information. When your definitions are faulty, anything else you say is built on a foundation of sand.’

    So let me get this straight: You feel that I feel that EVERY comment (and sub-part of said comment) in your posting was ad hominem (attacking me for just being me)? And MY defintions are faulty? Let’s see that would be a scathing indictment against Webster et al. ”

    No. I mean exactly what I said without your interjections. What I originally said goes to your statement. If you are so thin skinned as to take comments directed at your statements explicitly and try to distort them to take personal offense, that’s entirely your problem. I don’t do tacit when it comes to ad homimen. If I’m going to attack you, I’ll do it directly.

    “I hope your profession isn’t some critical public safety scenario that involves some sort of intellectual acumen. Yes that was ad hominem! Quid pro quo…sorry…”

    And I think you’re an idiot who’s opinion of my intellect means absolutely nothing to me in light of your own demonstrated lack of one and I hope you haven’t been allowed the opportunity to pass on your faulty genes. Oh! That’s right! Darwin was full of shit. However, I do invite you to take your faux apology and stick it firmly up your ass right next to where you store your head. That’s quid pro quo. If you want to play this game instead of arguing proofs? I will win it too. Appeal to OS all you like. If you want to remove the civility component by conflating that by attacking your statements I am somehow attacking you and use that for an excuse for going ad hominem? Knock yourself out, dingus. I’ve got insults that can strip paint. See? I don’t mince words when it comes to ad hominem.

    I’d rather focus on your opiinions not being backed by proof, ergo being belief based instead of fact based and the weight that should be given to those statements in that light. You bemoan the change of subject, yet you keep brining the matter up. If you don’t want your opinions on the matter challenged? Don’t bring them up. Again . . . you have the right to your opinion. You have the right to express it, even to present it as fact, but you do not have the right to have your opinions and assertsions go unchallenged. If you want a captive, receptive and compliant audience for your flavor of choice Bible studies, might I suggest that a free speech forum isn’t the best place to find one.


  574. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 12:26 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – I agree with you about the I-salon idea. Somehow my gut feeling tells me Otteray Scribe KNOWS how to implement such a suggestion in real-time. He strikes me as a very bright fellow with plenty of resources at hand others do not. I, however, can not as Gene H would say “I’m a f***** idiot”. So there you go… an indictment from a benighted soul. Oh sorry I guess soul doesn’t fit his artificial paradigm.

    Regarding the word “geographic”… that word does not fit my locale-hypothesis as it refers to EARTH in the prefix geo-, I am talking about something more EXTRA TERRESTRIAL (and not Hollywood aliens!)

    Your self-deprecation is getting quite old. I swear your IQ is up there with Marilyn vos Savant. Is there any way we all can go online at Sony and play Jeopardy? Just a thought. Could be fun – or not…


  575. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 12:30 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    Malisha,


  576. sonofthunderboanerges,

    Do you need help understanding what the word “if” means? Or are you going to continue to conflate to justify your indignation at having your opinions and assertions challenged? Just curious.


  577. Malisha,

    Actually, many if not most of the regulars and almost all of the guest bloggers refer to this place as a salon. While topicality is encouraged, some of the best threads on here have come from meandering conversations.

    “Why doesn’t someone here who has the technological knowledge and capacity set up some sort of blog and make it a blogger-invited forum and all like that? ”

    WordPress has the functionality to make this an invitation only forum, but the Professor maintains it as a free speech zone.


  578. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 12:44 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    “Intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.”
    ——————————————————
    sounds like an interesting club…will there be psychopaths there????
    (I feel so dissed….)


  579. Woosty,

    “Which to me makes it look more like a time than a place….the place happens throughout time in differing places for each soul that passes through the sight of G*d (thanks to the sacrifice of Christ…) hence, all places and all time (kind of like all for 1 and 1 for all…).”

    I quoted the whole paragraph simply to let you know I had read it in its entirety and also the Scriptures used in support and if one takes out the reference to the sacrifice of Jesus (Christ, whom I believe to have been just another soul passing through the sight of God) then you have beautifully, and I do mean beautifully, summed up spirituality.

    more like a time than a place….the place happens throughout time in differing places for each soul that passes through the sight of G*d brought tears to my eyes for its simplicity and depth of understanding.

    More often than not words serve only to obscure the divine failing us miserably as we struggle to impart our vision but every great once in a while, usually when we least expect it, the words illuminate perfectly. What a strange place to have this happen at this time. :)


  580. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 1:02 pm Anonymously Yours

    Woosty,

    it appears thatched admission price has been paid by many for all…..


  581. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 1:42 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – “No not really. I should have said ATTEMPT to give… No burden of VERACITY is needed when stating an OPINION about an asserted ‘knowledge’.”

    “Attempt has nothing to do with it. As to burden of veracity? Tecnhnically true that is not required that your opinions be truthful, but then again, that weighs against the value to be placed in your opinions as expressed. Knoweldge is information with a high degree of certainty attached to it, but when your certainty is based on belief rather than empirical evidence, again it weighs against the value to placed in your opinions and to the vaule of the ‘knowledge’ upon which you optin.”

    1.) Again you twist things to your advantage. I meant that there is no *burden of proof* that an “opinion” be truthful. It could very well be truthful, and the generator usually believes it to be so or else why generate it? Yes you are right about [accurate] “knowledge”. However, when I disseminate my opinion about what I think I know, I assume that it is accurate unless someone can show otherwise with his/her credible evidence in rebuttal. Not just regurgitated theories of other humans who could arguably be wrong too (i.e. Darwin, Einstein, Dawkins, etc.). IMO you have offered ANY credible evidence in rebuttal yet. What you call “empirical” could very well be observational-error, which I posit Darwin (et al) were guilty of. Deliberately or strategically in error? I do not know.

    “Proof is subjective”

    “No, it’s not. Proof is objective. A=A. That’s why it’s called proof. Facts are called facts because they have objective proof of their reality.”

    2.) Again you misunderstand. PROOF,in your world, is arguably the “smoking gun” type evidence that definitively PROVES something is true. That really can’t be done if the recipient has a biased viewpoint as to what empirical TRUTH actually is and rejects piecemeal dissenting evidence as it appears as he/she has a gestalt-deficit, as you do. You seem to have a problem with spatial-concepts and part-whole-relationships. Sometimes piecemeal evidence can be used to build a larger picture (i.e. gestalt). But when one summarily rejects it on a case-by-case basis, failing to see the gestalt, well proof is no longer objective. And empirical evidence is really only what the person sees and tests coming to a conclusion which could actually be false (i.e. original claimed size of the Universe?, etc.)

    “Do you actually have a dictionary? Try using it. Ad hominem basically means you are attacking ME for what you feel is my persona.”

    “Said the guy who has made up defintions several times now.”

    3.) No actually I was copy & pasting from online dictionaries – for the most part. I admit paraphrasing sometimes.

    “[snip] Argumentum ad hominem is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic of the person supporting it.”

    4.) Agreed. You did do that toward me a few times…

    “What I said was clearly and plainly about the nature of your statement and not a claim about you.”

    5.) Yeah tacitly implying that I’m a f****** idiot who doesn’t have psychic abilities to know how to use tact for unidentified Ashkenazim-Jews.

    “Just so, everything else I’ve stated has been to your statements of your beleifs as if they were assertions of fact when they are demonstrably not.”

    6.) Which I already admitted earlier that not ALL your attacks were AH.

    “Feel free to beleive whatever you like. Feel free to say what you like about your beliefs. Don’t expect them to go unchallenged.”

    7.) Thanks… Even when they aren’t directed at you?

    “I don’t care about your persona. I’m interested in your fallacious and/or erroneous statements. You have the right to your opinions. You do not have the right to have them not challenged. If that’s what you think? Boy howdy, have you come to the wrong place.”

    8.) And your baseless assertion of so-called “fallacious and/or erroneous statements” are your opinion too. And you know the old saying about the plethora of opinions? Everybody has one…

    “[snip]So let me get this straight: You feel that I feel that EVERY comment (and sub-part of said comment) in your posting was ad hominem (attacking me for just being me)? And MY defintions are faulty? Let’s see that would be a scathing indictment against Webster et al. ”

    “No. I mean exactly what I said without your interjections. What I originally said goes to your statement. If you are so thin skinned as to take comments directed at your statements explicitly and try to distort them to take personal offense, that’s entirely your problem. I don’t do tacit when it comes to ad homimen. If I’m going to attack you, I’ll do it directly.”

    9.) Yeah I can see that in your “f****** idiot” veiled invective… No I’m hardly thin-skinned. It appears you are as you must continue to respond with your specious absolute arguments about *this and that* as if you actually know what your talking about. So far you have made a great mainstream academia bandwagon-parrot for which you falsely accuse me of.

    “I hope your profession isn’t some critical public safety scenario that involves some sort of intellectual acumen. Yes that was ad hominem! Quid pro quo…sorry…”

    “And I think you’re an idiot who’s opinion of my intellect means absolutely nothing to me in light of your own demonstrated lack of one and I hope you haven’t been allowed the opportunity to pass on your faulty genes.”

    10.) Ummmm… saying I HOPE…yada yada yada is not an opinion. It’s just an observation. Faulty genes? What are you a racist William Shockley/Bardeen-ite? DTNBP1 has NOTHING to do with passing on intelligence. Intelligence is impacted by environment.

    “Oh! That’s right! Darwin was full of shit.”

    11.) I never said that. But you yourself have said it…

    “However, I do invite you to take your faux apology and stick it firmly up your ass right next to where you store your head.”

    12.) I don’t remember apologizing. Is that another DTNBP1 gene problem for you? They say you savants have problems detecting sarcasm.

    “That’s quid pro quo. If you want to play this game instead of arguing proofs?”

    13.) No I don’t want to play your puerile game as I already told OS and Malisha. You have not offered any “objective proofs”, just regurgitated copy & pastes of minutiae and failing to see the big picture. That’s just my opinion of course.

    “I will win it too.”

    14.) OK if you say so… You become the pariah not me for needlessly cluttering up this thread because of a puerile bruised ego.

    “Appeal to OS all you like.”

    15.) Thanks for your permission… no really…

    “If you want to remove the civility component by conflating that by attacking your statements I am somehow attacking you and use that for an excuse for going ad hominem? Knock yourself out, dingus. I’ve got insults that can strip paint. See? I don’t mince words when it comes to ad hominem.”

    16.) Yup… I detect a bruised ego… Are you also a narcissist or do you have borderline personality disorder too?

    “I’d rather focus on your opiinions not being backed by proof, ergo being belief based instead of fact based and the weight that should be given to those statements in that light. You bemoan the change of subject, yet you keep brining the matter up. If you don’t want your opinions on the matter challenged? Don’t bring them up. Again . . . you have the right to your opinion. You have the right to express it, even to present it as fact, but you do not have the right to have your opinions and assertsions go unchallenged. If you want a captive, receptive and compliant audience for your flavor of choice Bible studies, might I suggest that a free speech forum isn’t the best place to find one.”

    17.) Which you haven’t demonstrated yet. Your version of “proof” seems to be very SUBJECTIVE (yawn). I keep bringing the matter up with others. You just keep popping in with your specious assertions. Regarding your last sentence: Well duh! That’s what Malisha and I have been wanting but nobody is acting on it yet – I-Salon!!!

    I really don’t want to continue this as we are NOT really debating. We’re just exchanging barbs at one anther and no one is learning anything except how your bruised ego takes precedence over informed debate.

    I vote we stick to George Zimmerman…


  582. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 1:51 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    :)


  583. Hey SotB, thanks! Actually I had to look up Marilyn vos Savant, though — my point has always been not that I am unintelligent (I won’t argue that one and why should I?) but that I am uneducated. I am sure that with the proper background I could understand not only everything SAID on this blog but probably most things IMPLIED on this blog, but what has happened is that time and opportunity are gone for me to fill myself in. (Damn, keep ending sentences with prepositions, thus decreasing my status as a literate.) But I was not being self-deprecating when I spoke about not understanding most of the newer subjects. Oh I know the basic questions, and have thought about them (not a whole lot) but I don’t know the history, politics, technology, current events, etc. etc. that keep blooming in the mini-essays. My son keeps telling me I can understand all the computer technology I want to understnad and that I have a “gift for physics” but guess how he came to that conclusion? Watching me clean the kitchen! He says my method of loading the dishwasher is “the best I have ever seen.” And my kid’s an effin’ GENIUS (no really, by measurement, you know, numbers!).

    Right before public officials committed enough misfeasance and malfeasance in office to deprive me of 25% of my income in 2007, I was looking into returning to school to earn my bachelor’s degree. I was beginning to locate some grants and scholarships that might help me do it, too, and the whole thing fell in with another coup of corruption from the Fiefdom of Fairfax. But realities cannot, sometimes, be ignored, and here I am, and what you read is what you get. But I do repeat that I don’t know half of what is being said.

    Just recently my kid fixed up my computer so that when somebody sends me something (like the Leonard Cohen, the Garcia, etc.) I can play it and listen to it. If I keep catching up to “now” at this rate I may arrive at 2012 within the next decade, as my tribe says, “I should live so long.”

    But again, thanks thanks!

    Gene H: Thanks for the info about Professor’s salon, but the problem, it seems to me, is that people are only going to click on it if they are interested in the constitutional law stuff, thus, the other topics that could really attract participation are not “visible” to them on the web as they browse or search. I do appreciate the First Amendment on this blog, no question about it. I didn’t mean it should be by invitation ONLY, just that it should be by invitation. I have a friend to whom I have mentioned this blog repeatedly, and she’s brilliant, and she’s an actress and writer and artist (Tony Award), and I would love her to blog in here, but she said simply, “I don’t want to talk law with anybody.” So that’s what I was thinking about when I said a salon with invited guests. Also, people who are not lawyers could put up the articles to establish the threads to respond to and blog on. For instance, I would LOVE to see one of “our” attorney bloggers put up a guest blog on “the life interest.” I could even outline how it would work with the Trayvon Martin case. But I can’t do it, and it occurs to me that if there were a different kind of “salonblog” I could.


  584. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 1:59 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – Don’t feel dissed. I was just copying and pasting a online definition of the word “esoteric”. I may use it too loosely but I’m not trying to exclude people. It’s just that it’s my own personal pet-theory and has not been parsed by any “clubs”, “groups”, or religious organizations. It’s just idle speculation on my part and very well could contain enough “provable” flaws to make me ditch the whole thing in it’s entirety. It’s just a bunch of coincidental biblical assumptions and astronomical facts which caught my eye when I had a lot of time on my hands dealing with my own version of psychopaths (i.e. sitting at my desk ducking them). :-)

    One of the PP’s caught my whiteboard scribbling in my cubicle and tried to decipher it. Fortunately he was not smart enough and he bought my misdirection as to what it really was on the board. Whew!


  585. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 2:02 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – “Do you need help understanding what the word “if” means? Or are you going to continue to conflate to justify your indignation at having your opinions and assertions challenged? Just curious.”

    Uhhhh… that is why I said VEILED… DUH!!!


  586. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 2:07 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    Malisha there is Salon.com.


  587. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 2:20 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Woosty’s still a Cat – Yes Salon.com seems very cool. However, when I attempted to join it said that memberships were temporarily closed.


  588. “… how your bruised ego takes precedence over informed debate.” (sonofthunderboanerges)

    This is a well intentioned hint: You have no idea how many posters have tried that ploy over the years. Gene’s ego does not bruise.


  589. @ SotB: Do you not realize that I don’t know how to play Jeopardy? OK, I know it’s a TV game show, but that’s the sum total of my knowledge of that subject. (Little frownie face could go in here)

    “So there you go… an indictment from a benighted soul. Oh sorry I guess soul doesn’t fit his artificial paradigm.” —

    Oh well, you used the word paradigm, and I had to get off at the last stop. As they say, “one sandwich short of a picnic.”

    If you think “paradigm” confuses me, how about this one: “paradigm shift”?


  590. Hey Woosty, thank you!
    I’m going to check in to that. Do you blog there? wow! LIFE INTEREST, maybe it will find a temporary lodging!


  591. sonofthunderboanerges,

    1) “Again you twist things to your advantage. I meant that there is no *burden of proof* that an “opinion” be truthful. [. . .] IMO you have offered ANY credible evidence in rebuttal yet. What you call “empirical” could very well be observational-error, which I posit Darwin (et al) were guilty of.”

    Opinion. I have twisted nothing. You seem Hellbent on doing some twisting though. You failure to understand the words you use is not my problem. I have presented both logic, corrected improper definitions on your part and presented evidence in the form of a report on an experiment demonstrating that natural selection is a real observable and testable natural process. You are the one absent evidence. You made claims about Darwin’s work? Prove them. As claimant, the burden of proof rests with you.

    2. “Again you misunderstand. PROOF,in your world, is arguably the ‘smoking gun’ type evidence that definitively PROVES something is true. That really can’t be done if the recipient has a biased viewpoint as to what empirical TRUTH actually is and rejects piecemeal dissenting evidence as it appears as he/she has a gestalt-deficit, as you do. You seem to have a problem with spatial-concepts and part-whole-relationships. Sometimes piecemeal evidence can be used to build a larger picture (i.e. gestalt). But when one summarily rejects it on a case-by-case basis, failing to see the gestalt, well proof is no longer objective. And empirical evidence is really only what the person sees and tests coming to a conclusion which could actually be false (i.e. original claimed size of the Universe?, etc.)”

    No. I understand proof just fine. Proof is objective. A=A. That’s why it’s called proof. Facts are called facts because they have objective proof of their reality. It is objective and verifiable which what makes it definitive. Bias does not play into it, but evidence and testability do. Now that you can’t understand objective proof because of your bias is entirely your problem. I have not demonstrated any composition or division errors either whereas your statements are riddled with logical fallacies, not the least of which is begging the question, so pardon me while I dismiss your “gestalt” argument as the crap argument that it is.

    3. “No actually I was copy & pasting from online dictionaries – for the most part. I admit paraphrasing sometimes.”

    Having access to a tool and knowing how to use it are not the same thing. Just so, paraphrasing is not actual understanding.

    4. “’[snip] Argumentum ad hominem is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic of the person supporting it.’ Agreed. You did do that toward me a few times…’”

    Actually I didn’t but since the entirety of your outrage is based on that misrepresentation, I’ll point out that what was your inability to tell the difference between comments directed at your statements versus comments directed at your person has now morphed into the logical fallacy of a straw man.

    5. “’What I said was clearly and plainly about the nature of your statement and not a claim about you.’” And it was. “Yeah tacitly implying that I’m a f****** idiot who doesn’t have psychic abilities to know how to use tact for unidentified Ashkenazim-Jews.” It’s not my fault you don’t know the difference between “imply” and “infer”. Your poor inference (which seems to be deliberate to give you rationalization for being the first to abandon civility) is not my problem, but rather yours.”

    6. “Just so, everything else I’ve stated has been to your statements of your beliefs as if they were assertions of fact when they are demonstrably not.”

    End of story, your self-rationalizing qualification notwithstanding.

    7. “’Feel free to believe whatever you like. Feel free to say what you like about your beliefs. Don’t expect them to go unchallenged.’ Thanks… Even when they aren’t directed at you?”

    Yep. But especially if they are directed at me. You make the statements, you own the responses solicited or not.

    8. “’I don’t care about your persona. I’m interested in your fallacious and/or erroneous statements. You have the right to your opinions. You do not have the right to have them not challenged. If that’s what you think? Boy howdy, have you come to the wrong place.’ And your baseless assertion of so-called ‘fallacious and/or erroneous statements’ are your opinion too.”

    Actually my assertions are based on proofs, making them fact until proven otherwise, not opinion. Your inability to properly understand the concepts notwithstanding.

    9. “’[snip]So let me get this straight: You feel that I feel that EVERY comment (and sub-part of said comment) in your posting was ad hominem (attacking me for just being me)? And MY defintions are faulty? Let’s see that would be a scathing indictment against Webster et al. ‘

    ‘No. I mean exactly what I said without your interjections. What I originally said goes to your statement. If you are so thin skinned as to take comments directed at your statements explicitly and try to distort them to take personal offense, that’s entirely your problem. I don’t do tacit when it comes to ad homimen. If I’m going to attack you, I’ll do it directly.’

    Yeah I can see that in your “f****** idiot” veiled invective… No I’m hardly thin-skinned.”

    Apparently either you are thin-skinned or you don’t understand the meaning of the word “if” and the difference in the words “implicit” and explicit”.

    “It appears you are as you must continue to respond with your specious absolute arguments about *this and that* as if you actually know what your talking about.”

    Just because you are losing an argument that doesn’t make mine specious. You also mistake absolute for factual. If my facts are wrong? Prove them wrong. Until then, my argument isn’t specious, but rather factual. So far, I’ve shown you don’t even know the meanings of the words you use, let alone have any evidence, i.e. facts, to back your assertions.

    “So far you have made a great mainstream academia bandwagon-parrot for which you falsely accuse me of.”

    Again, I only think people don’t understand science when they demonstrably don’t understand science. Like you. Also, I don’t accuse you of being a “great mainstream academia bandwagon-parrot”. I said you parroted a term without understanding it. You raise a straw man.

    10. “’I hope your profession isn’t some critical public safety scenario that involves some sort of intellectual acumen. Yes that was ad hominem! Quid pro quo…sorry…’ [- your words.]

    “’And I think you’re an idiot who’s opinion of my intellect means absolutely nothing to me in light of your own demonstrated lack of one and I hope you haven’t been allowed the opportunity to pass on your faulty genes.’”

    You asked for it. Also, intelligence is – like most human traits and characteristics – shaped by both genes and environment.

    11. “’Oh! That’s right! Darwin was full of shit.’ I never said that.”

    No, but your every post has been attempting to discredit either Darwin, evolution or natural selection to it is a reasonable inference to make that you are out to discredit him.

    12. “’However, I do invite you to take your faux apology and stick it firmly up your ass right next to where you store your head.’ I don’t remember apologizing. [. . .] They say you savants have problems detecting sarcasm.”

    Oh I understand sarcasm just fine, hence the use of “faux”. And technically speaking, I’m not a savant. Again, you should not use words you don’t understand. Just because someone smarter than you doesn’t mean they are a savant.

    13. “’That’s quid pro quo. If you want to play this game instead of arguing proofs?’ No I don’t want to play your puerile game as I already told OS and Malisha. You have not offered any ‘objective proofs’, just regurgitated copy & pastes of minutiae and failing to see the big picture. That’s just my opinion of course.”

    And a demonstrably factually wrong opinion at that. Appeal to whomever you wish. I’ve proven that you don’t know the meanings of the terms you use and pointed to evidence that is scientifically valid and factual that you dismiss as “minutiae” because it does not conform to your preconceptions and belief system. Evidence is evidence. Your refusal to accept the proof of it is your intellectual and logical failing and no one else’s.

    14. “’I will win it too.’ OK if you say so… You become the pariah not me for needlessly cluttering up this thread because of a puerile bruised ego.”

    Your assumption is that you’ve somehow bruised my ego. I clearly don’t give a dman what you think of me. How could you possibly bruise my ego? You, on the other hand, are stomping about like a child being told he can’t have his cake and eat it too, so I’ll let the audience decide who has the bruised ego.

    15. “’Appeal to OS all you like.’ Thanks for your permission… no really…”

    You’re welcome.

    16. ‘“If you want to remove the civility component by conflating that by attacking your statements I am somehow attacking you and use that for an excuse for going ad hominem? Knock yourself out, dingus. I’ve got insults that can strip paint. See? I don’t mince words when it comes to ad hominem.” Yup… I detect a bruised ego… Are you also a narcissist or do you have borderline personality disorder too?”

    You’ve proven your skills at detection are sub-par at best. As to BPD or narcissism? Nope. I’ve seen more psychiatrists and psychologists than a lab rat over all my years of being in G&T programs and they all describe me as a highly intelligent, auto-didactic polymath with an extremely well integrated personality. Thanks for asking though. I will, however, tear you a new ass if you just want to swap insults. Ask OS as you are want to do. He knows me quite well. You do know he’s a psychological professional, right?

    17. “’I’d rather focus on your opinions not being backed by proof, ergo being belief based instead of fact based and the weight that should be given to those statements in that light. You bemoan the change of subject, yet you keep brining the matter up. If you don’t want your opinions on the matter challenged? Don’t bring them up. Again . . . you have the right to your opinion. You have the right to express it, even to present it as fact, but you do not have the right to have your opinions and assertsions go unchallenged. If you want a captive, receptive and compliant audience for your flavor of choice Bible studies, might I suggest that a free speech forum isn’t the best place to find one.’ Which you haven’t demonstrated yet. Your version of ‘proof’ seems to be very SUBJECTIVE (yawn).”

    You’ve already shown you don’t know what “subjective” and “objective” mean as it relates to proof. My proof was and is objective. It is based on facts as demonstrable via observations and repeatable tests. Those observations were made on snail, but similar observations, tests and conclusions have been made with fruit flies, ants, bacteria and other fast breeding, short lived populations. You haven’t defeated my one instance of proof in the slightest. I carry no burden to supply additional proof until you refute my standing proof with substantive evidence. So far, your “proof” is nothing but the statement and re-statement of your opinion, which is not a fact.

    “I keep bringing the matter up with others. You just keep popping in with your specious assertions.”

    I will keep popping with factual assertions you fail to rebut with objective evidence as long as you keep asserting fallacious and erroneous beliefs as if they were proof of something other than your beliefs.

    “I really don’t want to continue this as we are NOT really debating.”

    Actually we are really debating, as in having a contention by words or arguments. You’re just losing terribly as a logical, factual and evidential matter.

    “We’re just exchanging barbs at one anther and no one is learning anything except how your bruised ego takes precedence over informed debate.”

    Just like your weak insults failed to arouse anything other than my amusement, but I sure seem to have pissed you off. When your “argument” such as it is gets anywhere near “informed”, be sure to send me a post card. Because your beliefs are “informed” by wishful thinking, not facts. Again, veracity in opinion is not required, but in proofs, it is essential.

    “I vote we stick to George Zimmerman…”

    That is entirely up to you.

    However, if you keep talking about evolution as if you have a clue though, I’m just going to jump right back in on the subject.


  592. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 3:02 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Blouise – OK granted. But you and others know that I play well with others and I try to be courteous even if I don’t agree with something. He starts exchanging barbs with me because he thinks he’s found an easy Fundamentalist target. I start to transform into his puerile Doppelganger and he responds in kind. Any profiler would summarize that he is assuming some sort of egotistical stance based on his chose of words, invectives, and type of attacks toward me. I haven’t attempted to show-off or verbally attack anyone except him. I’m really a nice guy when you get to know me. After awhile though I tend to burn bridges behind me as I can be a social klutz at times. Esp. when I go MIA for long periods of time or say the wrong thing forgetting social protocols.

    @Malisha – Jeopardy comes on ABC-TV I think at 7PM weekdays EST. You just have to answer problems in the form of a question and earn escalating points then get bonus points at final Jeopardy. I am amazed at some people’s acumen. I get a lot of them but there are some that I have no clue what the answer is. Like Natural Selection and Atheism – no not really! :-)


  593. sonofthunderboanerges,

    I didn’t mention you being a Fundamentalist at all. I mentioned that you were demonstrating that you don’t understand science, the scientific method, evolution and its contingent mechanisms or what some words mean.

    “I start to transform into his puerile Doppelganger and he responds in kind.”

    Actually I proved your word usuage, statements and assertions about evolution were factually incorrect. If you think facts a puerile because they don’t conform to your belief system, that’s your problem. Learn to argue better.

    “Any profiler would summarize that he is assuming some sort of egotistical stance based on his chose of words, invectives, and type of attacks toward me. I haven’t attempted to show-off or verbally attack anyone except him.”

    OS actually is a profiler. That’s part of his day job. Why don’t you ask him what he thinks?

    “I’m really a nice guy when you get to know me.”

    That doesn’t mean you’re right.

    “After awhile though I tend to burn bridges behind me as I can be a social klutz at times.”

    It could have something to do with your apparent thin-skinned/inference problem.


  594. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 3:31 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – OK Gene I bow to the KCR (King of Circular Reasoning). I’m really done with your arguably ridiculous benighted and puerile diatribe.

    Truth be told, I never actually went to college, yet I know you probably did. IMHO my autodidact and polymath acumen involves a much more diverse education versus a matriculated person who is experiencing an expensive yet narrow rote education – IMHO that is. I’m not dissin’ college students now! I wish I did have that financial opportunity in life. Christopher Langan and I can’t be that lucky I guess… :-)


  595. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 3:31 pm Otteray Scribe

    SoTB, I see that you have invoked my name several times upthread. I have not waded through the comments, so am not sure of the full context; however, please do not use me as some sort of weight in making your arguments. I am a scientist with a forensic specialty. I have no interest whatsoever in theological arguments about the GPS coordinates of either heaven or hell, even if such places exist, which I doubt.

    BTW, “psychopath” is not a term of art, and neither is “sociopath.” Those are lay terms of convenience. The correct term is antisocial personality disorder and there is a very specific algorythmic formula for making that paricular psychiatric diagnosis.

    http://www.accg.net/antisocial.htm


  596. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 3:47 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Otteray Scribe – You should read the context. I did not really invoke your name for those reasons. I was only mentioning you as a resource to help us (Melisha and I) have an offline forum but someone said we could just stay here because no one really cares about going off-topic. Which I thaught was a no-no.

    I also mentioned you as I was trying to say that I was civil to your I-friends as they were your friends (Friend of my friend etc?). But one in particular just wouldn’t stop with the invective attacks so I responded in kind. Which I regret now if you are now chastising me for it?

    My comments about so-called “psychopaths” was not in a clinical reference. It was a reference to certain obfuscated members of the intelligence community who display some of those personality traits when in field operations. Of course they are not clinically diagnosed that way as that would make them unfit for duty. I mentioned that in them joking around with each other (kinda’ sorta’) they sometimes refer to themselves as unofficial “psychopaths”, when they probably more likely have a borderline personalty disorder. In any event, it seems to help them carry out very “dark” operations necessary within global counter-terrorism. In my opinion that is.


  597. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 3:52 pm Otteray Scribe

    I have been on line very little the past few days due to work load and some other issues. I do not engage in theological arguments. Everyone has to stand on their own. Theology is opinion. Sience is facts. I prefer facts; they are challenging enough without obfusicating them with random unprovable opinions.


  598. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 3:53 pm Otteray Scribe

    Fatfingered that one: “science.”


  599. sonofthunderboanerges,

    Sorry! You don’t get off that easy.

    “OK Gene I bow to the KCR (King of Circular Reasoning).”

    Prove my reasoning is circular. You made the claim. You hold the burden of proof. Your claiming it to be so without proof is just another unfounded opinion. Do you even know what circular logic is? Let me help you with that. It’s a logical fallacy in which the conclusion of an argument is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises – like beggging the question that God exists and then coming to a conclusion that implicitly or explicitly requires the existence of God to be true. Sound familiar, Mr. “Gestalt”?

    I can demonstrate my logics are both linear and formally sound, so if you can prove they are circular, you need to get to work.

    “I’m really done with your arguably ridiculous benighted and puerile diatribe.”

    Also, that word you keep using – “puerile”. There is nothing sophmoric or adolescent about my arguments. They are evidence, logic and fact based. As for “benighted”; overtaken by darkness or night or existing in a state of intellectual, moral, or social darkness? A thing is neither puerile or beinighted simply because you don’t like it, cannot defeat the logic of it or it doesn’t conform to your beliefs. Only the willfully ignorant think empirically gained facts and knoweldge are anything other than intellectual, moral and social light. The light of reason to be precise. That is why is was referred to as “The Age of Enlightenment”. Then again, you’ve proven you don’t know what that word means either.

    You’re done alright.

    Just not in the sense you think.


  600. Topicality is a suggestion, especially on new threads, sonofthunderboanerges. This is an older thread. There are newer threads to cover the Martin case. Meandering is just fine. Some of the most entertaining theads hear are meanders. However, you were the one who sowed the wind. If you don’t like reaping the whirlwind? Too bad. Go hide in the basement.


  601. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 4:01 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – As usual you totally miss the point. Never mind I’ll just move on (he said ad infinitum). I already know what he is and IMHO he is much better suited for intellectual debate than you are. You use circular reason like a badge of honor. You make unsubstantiated claims about you, me, and Natural Selection as if they were etched-in-stone “facts” when they are just opinions and specious theories. Why must I wait for you to SAY I’m a Fundie when it is ostensibly obvious by your jaded negative comments about me and my alleged lack of scientific knowledge?


  602. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 4:08 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Otteray Scribe – There was a reason why I didn’t involve you into any theological debate. I didn’t want to jeopardize the apparent nice relationship we have. So please feel free to ignore my postings in that venue. I’m trying to stop anyway but for some reason it keeps coming up. Why don’t you introduce us to a new topic of conversation? I’m game…


  603. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 4:34 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – OK Einstein once more into the breach…

    Circular Logic:

    1) SotB must be wrong as Gene H is right and can prove it.

    2) Gene H. can’t actually PROVE anything with minute details about organic life when the BIGGER picture about ALL organic life, its complexities and interdependencies (and the universe) screams (or is ostensibly) was from super-sentient architecture.
    (NOT Intelligent Design which is actually pure bunk).

    3) SotB must be wrong because Gene H has a strange understanding of online dictionary definitions. He seems to dispute them even when copy & pasted verbatim. Even though the definitions seem to dispute him (i.e. the noun “belief”, or belief system, can’t possibly apply to evolutionists? WTF?)

    4) But Gene H must be right and SotB must be wrong because Gene H believes it to be so. And they both can’t be right or wrong. Why? Because Gene H said so.

    5) What makes Gene H a subj matter expert on NatSel? He possibly went to college for 4+ years. What about SotB? He didn’t… WELL THERE YOU GO… SotB must be wrong – right?

    6) Well SotB doesn’t understand NatSel, Science, and must be one of those ill-formed science-hatin’ Creationists… well how do you know that? Gene said so and around and around we go on this puerile benighted merry-go-round…


  604. “As usual you totally miss the point. Never mind I’ll just move on (he said ad infinitum). I already know what he is and IMHO he is much better suited for intellectual debate than you are.”

    Oh I get that you’d rather just run away at this poing. As to OS’ fitness over mine? Why? What’s your evidence? Because you don’t think he can or would kick your ass in a debate because he’s a nice guy? Bad news for you. I’ve seen OS chew up opponents and spit them out.

    “You use circular reason like a badge of honor.”

    Then . . . prove it, sonofthunderboner.

    And your lack of scientific knowledge isn’t allegeded. It has been well and fully demonstrated at this point.

    As to you being a Fundamentalist? If the zealous literalist extremist ideological shoe fits, wear it. I don’t care what you are other than scientifically factually and logically wrong. Your beleifs are not my concern. You are free to believe whatever you want. The observable verifiable facts are my concern.

    “You make unsubstantiated claims about you, me, and Natural Selection as if they were etched-in-stone ‘facts’ when they are just opinions and specious theories.”

    No. I made substantiated claims. I provided evidence that natural selection is an obserable process and testable by repeatable experimentation specifically in a population of snails. That makes my assertions based upon scientific facts.

    The only opining and specious theories? Do you even know what “specious” means? It means having deceptive attraction or allure or having a false look of truth or genuineness. Like having the deceptive attraction of certainty through belief instead certainty through reason or claims that can just as easily be said to be false becuase they lack proof but appear to be genuine by appeals to Biblical authority (also a logcial fallacy) and claims of faith. The only specious opinions here are yours. They are as specious as they are factually deficient and logically fallacious. In the end, you cannot prove what you claim is true.

    I can and have proven my points, logically and with evidence, and will do so again every time you start talking nonsense about topics you don’t understand using terminology that you are making up as you go along. You’re acceptence of the failure of your arguments is not required for me to dismantle them.

    So you can either prove me wrong, put a sock in it, or get the smack down for being factually wrong every time you are factually wrong. Those are pretty much your only options other than go further on the offense which given your lack of success at proving me wrong to this point, I would not suggest be your tactic.

    The choice is yours.


  605. You are in way over your head, sonofthunderboner.

    “Circular Logic:

    1) SotB must be wrong as Gene H is right and can prove it.”

    You having to be wrong has nothing to do with you being wrong and proved wrong in your assertions about Darwin, natural selection, evolution and eugenics. You are beging the question that you are wrong because I’m involved in proving you wrong. I don’t have anything to do with you being wrong. You being wrong and proven wrong has everything to do with you being wrong. You are again begging the question and displaying your own circular logic.

    “2) Gene H. can’t actually PROVE anything with minute details about organic life when the BIGGER picture about ALL organic life, its complexities and interdependencies (and the universe) screams (or is ostensibly) was from super-sentient architecture.
    (NOT Intelligent Design which is actually pure bunk).”

    Opinion and a straw man. I set out to prove you didn’t know what the words meant that you were using and that your assertions about Darwin, natural selection, evolution and eugincs were factually wrong and I did so. The rest of your statement is begging the question that God exists.

    Prove it.

    Oh. That’s right. You can’t because you have no evidence other than your faith.

    “3) SotB must be wrong because Gene H has a strange understanding of online dictionary definitions. He seems to dispute them even when copy & pasted verbatim. Even though the definitions seem to dispute him (i.e. the noun “belief”, or belief system, can’t possibly apply to evolutionists? WTF?)”

    Online, I use OED or Webster’s. I don’t know where you get your bullshit definitions from.

    “4) But Gene H must be right and SotB must be wrong because Gene H believes it to be so. And they both can’t be right or wrong. Why? Because Gene H said so.”

    Again, my beliefs have nothing to do with empirical facts. You, however, seem to mistake your beliefs for empircal facts. That’d be your mistake.

    “5) What makes Gene H a subj matter expert on NatSel? He possibly went to college for 4+ years. What about SotB? He didn’t… WELL THERE YOU GO… SotB must be wrong – right?”

    Your fear of your own inadequacy is showing. I don’t give a shit whether you went to college or not. Being ignorant (of science or whatever subject) isn’t a function of formal education. It’s simply a function of education. Try reading a book other than the Bible some time. It’s good for your mind.

    “6) Well SotB doesn’t understand NatSel, Science, and must be one of those ill-formed science-hatin’ Creationists… well how do you know that? Gene said so and around and around we go on this puerile benighted merry-go-round…”

    I didn’t say you were an “ill-formed science-hatin’ Creationists”. I said you demonstrate that you do not understand either science or the scientific method. However and again, if the zealous extremist literalist ideological shoe fits, wear it.

    Come on.

    Keep digging your hole deeper.

    I don’t mind. Really.


  606. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 4:54 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. – I say puerile as you won’t come out of childlike attack mode and discuss this in a respectful tone. You just feel that your OPINIONS (I see no empirical facts yet) are absolutely right and you refuse to even consider the Gestalt argument I posed. Like some sort of HS bully with an agenda. “Stop hitting yourself!”

    Why benighted? In a state of pitiful or contemptible intellectual or moral ignorance… OK a bit harsh I know but I think your narrow-minded POV sounds a bit ignorant when you think that the word minutiae is a pejorative term and you fail to see the big picture (i.e. gestalt) of all organic life and the Universe. I don’t want to point to minute points like you do… like the complexity of the human eye.. because I want the Gestalt to be seen not just one small part of the picture that agrees with your ostensible ignorance about our true origins.

    Evolutionists thinking that we evolved from Apes is ignorant when we share no DNA with them any more than any other animal. That 98% DNA thing was proven by other evolutionist to be pure BUNK.

    Maybe since you are a agnostic we may actually be in agreement with each other on *some* things but don’t realize it yet because we are both attacking one another needlessly. Food for thought…


  607. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 5:11 pm sonofthunderboanerges

    @Gene H. and again with the circular reasoning. I must be wrong because you somehow believe you proved me wrong on all those key points. However, nothing could be farther from the truth. I said some things and then you said some things. I don’t remember any OBJECTIVE PROOF only specious theories which are not actually empirical (Based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.) How was your proofs NOT theoretical? Observation? I thought NS took millions of years? So somebody observed something even for 1/1000 of that time? No it was over a very short period of time. That “observation” couldn’t be a feature of a super-sentient creator? Well ssc can’t exist. Why? because I said so… huh?

    Why is OS a better debater than you? He makes sense. He doesn’t spew invectives and pejoratives to make his point. He corrects me respectfully and not in some arrogant veiled or unveiled put down. Yes he may have done this or that in the past against other posters but what has that to do with me. He’s been a perfect gentleman with me and never puerile.


  608. “@Gene H. – I say puerile as you won’t come out of childlike attack mode and discuss this in a respectful tone. You just feel that your OPINIONS (I see no empirical facts yet) are absolutely right and you refuse to even consider the Gestalt argument I posed. Like some sort of HS bully with an agenda. “Stop hitting yourself!””

    I presented evidence and facts. You promptly ignored it. Ignoring evidence is the root of all ignorance. As for attack mode? You’re the one who wanted to dispose of civility. If you don’t like that you aren’t winning the argument by any objective standard, that’s your problem. I proved the points I wanted to prove. If you want to prove your “Gestalt” theory? Get to it. I’m just going to tell you now that since it ends in a supernatural supervening force of some sort, I’ll be able to crush that argument too.

    “Why benighted? In a state of pitiful or contemptible intellectual or moral ignorance… OK a bit harsh I know but I think your narrow-minded POV sounds a bit ignorant when you think that the word minutiae is a pejorative term and you fail to see the big picture (i.e. gestalt) of all organic life and the Universe. I don’t want to point to minute points like you do… like the complexity of the human eye.. because I want the Gestalt to be seen not just one small part of the picture that agrees with your ostensible ignorance about our true origins.”

    I don’t give a shit what you want or believe. Prove it as a factual matter. Point to evidence in the form of the observable and verifiable, not some mystical metaphysical belief that complexity of eye structure is due to some kind of intelligence when it is simply a product of the natural processes of natural selection and evolution.

    “Evolutionists thinking that we evolved from Apes is ignorant when we share no DNA with them any more than any other animal. That 98% DNA thing was proven by other evolutionist to be pure BUNK.”

    Really.

    Chimps, Humans 96 Percent the Same, Gene Study Finds
    Stefan Lovgren
    for National Geographic News
    August 31, 2005

    Scientists have sequenced the genome of the chimpanzee and found that humans are 96 percent similar to the great ape species.

    “Darwin wasn’t just provocative in saying that we descend from the apes—he didn’t go far enough,” said Frans de Waal, a primate scientist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. “We are apes in every way, from our long arms and tailless bodies to our habits and temperament.”

    “Because chimpanzees are our closest living relatives, the chimp genome is the most useful key to understanding human biology and evolution, next to the human genome itself. The breakthrough will aid scientists in their mission to learn what sets us apart from other animals.

    By comparing human and chimpanzee genomes, the researchers have identified several sequences of genetic code that differ between human and chimp. These sequences may hold the most promise for determining what creates human-specific traits such as speech.

    “If people are asking what makes us human, they’re not going to find a smoking gun [in this study],” said Evan Eichler, a genome scientist at the University of Washington in Seattle who was part of the research team. “But they’re going to find suggestions for where to look.”

    The project was conducted by an international group of scientists called the Chimp Sequencing and Analysis Consortium. Sixty-seven researchers co-authored the study, which is detailed tomorrow in the journal Nature.”

    And what does the NIH have to say about human-primate genomics?

    http://www.genome.gov/15515096

    Or Dr. Dennis O’Neil, Behavioral Sciences Department, Palomar College, San Marcos, California?

    http://anthro.palomar.edu/primate/prim_8.htm

    Okay. Now where’s your proof that humans and other primates are not related? Proof mind you. Scientific studies that consist of observations and verifiable/falsifiable repeatable experiments. Not your opinion.

    “Maybe since you are a agnostic we may actually be in agreement with each other on *some* things but don’t realize it [. . . ]”

    On substantial matters? I really doubt it.


  609. Guys, I don’t (for a change, I know) understand the passion of your presentations on the squabble that’s taking place, much less understand the actual content of the squabble itself, but I don’t know what the underlying dynamic is, either. At one point I think VengancNow told me, “You write suck rubbish” and I responded, “OK, that’s fair.” Well of course, it WAS fair. I didn’t think he was much of an editor and if I could ever get to write a book for the public market (I have written one that wasn’t really “trade” and it was published by a university press so I can’t say it is impossible although I will say it is unlikely), I wouldn’t ask him to edit my work, but since he and I are relatively unrelated (aside from the six degrees of separation theory AND this blog), it didn’t get me down too far. Gene H, I am nobody, but here’s what I: I respect your posts, I look forward to reading your stuff, I wonder how you come up with it and what your profession is. SotB, I’m who you know I am, but here’s what I: I respect your posts, I look forward to reading your stuff, I wonder how you have learned the stuff you write. Is there reason that you two are REALLY ANGRY with each other? If I could set up a real geographic salon, I would love to have all my diverse friends and even diverse acquaintances meet and greet and enrich and communicate, and they would include the African American Broadway star who won the Tony and the Canadian author who won the Mann Booker and the Columbian author who won the Nobel and the Philadelphia waiter and the Arab journalist and the penniless jazz singer who was arrested for sleeping in her car and the Greek American attorney who can practice law in languages he does not read or understand and the Oregonian file clerk who does “pressured speech” and the Missouri Mormon who writes children’s fantasy books and the Orthodox Jewish woman who flew to New York to speak at a demonstration in Rockland County, quoting Torah, and the former actuary for the Social Security Administration and the gloomy Swede and the Syrian (female) belly dancer and the Bolivian cook and the Puerto Rican (male) jazz dancer, and the New York federal judge and you, Boanerges and you, Gene H and the other bloggers (and maybe Vengeance would not show up but if he did, I would want him to leave his piece at the door and come in only with his peace) and maybe, if I served good enough refreshments, we’d have a good time.

    Yeah, I wish. Do you like Spanakopita?


  610. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 6:11 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    OS actually is a profiler. That’s part of his day job. Why don’t you ask him what he thinks?
    ___________________________
    OS is a profiler????

    DO ME! DO ME!!

    OS, what would my profile be???? :)


  611. Mike Spindell,

    My kid and I could not speak for five years, between his 13th and 18th birthday (“no contact order” from the Court — managed to make him blame ONLY his father for all his teen-age angst and I got off scott free!) and then he came home on the DAY he turned 18, emancipated by operation of law. Since his dearest friends who saw him through this moral and intellectual drought were Mormons who were also some of the dearest people on earth, I had half an expectation that he would be Mormon when he returned. But no, he was still a secular Jew, which is what I was. But during high school, for English class, he had read the Bible (King James, in English) and he had used his formidable intellect (higher IQ than mine, fyi, Boanerges) to analyze it “in media.” Long story short, he was just outraged at god’s behavior. The part that got him angriest was the fate of the ten sons of Aaron (that would be, I guess, if I remember correctly, the ten nephews of Moses) who built the First Temple to the specifications god laid down, and then, because they burned the wrong incense or some such misdemeanor, got swallowed up by the earth, which opened specifically to upswallow them, as punishment for their transgression. So my kid said to me: “If that shit is true, god is a psychotic sadist.” At that moment I knew that he would never become a Mormon, by the way. Several things in the Torah (Bible) defy belief, but are probably perfectly true by the standards of the times. One of the portions that got me the most riled up when I was preparing kids for their haftoroth was the passage about what is to be done to a woman who, in order to help her husband — who is getting the worst of a battle — while he is fighting with a neighbor in the alleyway between their houses, grabs the neighbor’s testicles and squeezes them to cause the man to stop beating up her husband. The Book advises: “Cut off her hands; show her no mercy.” OK, this is a little bit much, OK? And I don’t think my kid even reached that part. I am sure it was one of those “hard cases make bad law” things that happened way back then. Considering what happened at the Taj Mahal, I guess it speaks badly enough for my (and your) ancestors’ lord and master, but he may have competition for first place in that category.

    The part of the Bible that I found most fascinating was the part, in genesis, where god gives Adam the job (the right) to name the animals. What a concept! One would think, then, that the study of the Hebrew (or Aramaic, right?) names of the animals might be a really fascinating study — a study of origins, a psycholinguistic study, wouldn’t? I don’t even know the names of the animals in Hebrew. I DO know that in Hebrew, the dogs do not say “Bow Wow,” but “Chov Chov.” My son had a whippet (sadly deceased on March 17, 2011, RIP) who, when he barked for the first time (having heard a firecracker go off on the Fourth of July) surprised himself so much that he ran and hid! Then he was embarrassed because we were laughing.


  612. Malisha,

    Thanks. I like your posts a lot too. However, you mistake (at least on my part) tenacity in argument for anger. I’m very difficult to anger and extremely think skinned. That being said, I will purposefully make an opponent angry – especially if I see their “lip quiver” first. Opponents with a propensity for anger are easy. It makes them make tactical and strategic mistakes in their arguments. I’ll also treat hostile opponents with their own medicine. But as to me being angry? Not in the slightest. On the rare occassion I am actually angry, I usually am quite explicit about it, but it’s almost always about something topcially on the blog and not at other posters. If lawyers got angry every time they argued, the average life expectancy would be about 35. And yes, I love Spanakopita and most Greek food, especially dolmades. Unfortunately I have to pass on the desserts now unless they are the rare ones without nuts in them. I love Greek pastery, but alas, it doesn’t love me. I think I may have to make some Souvlaki this week now.


  613. SOTB:

    did you know that bananas share around 50% of DNA with us?

    Cats share around 90% of their genes with us.

    All life on earth is connected. We should share a portion of our DNA with other living things/beings.


  614. Sotb:

    dont pay Gene H no mind, he is always “right”. If you like to argue, he is the go to guy.


  615. Wait wait, Gene H, are you a lawyer? How come I didn’t figure out you were a lawyer, what’s with me now?

    OK. Life interest: Game?

    The Constitution says we should not be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process.

    There is property, and there are property interests.
    There is liberty, and there are liberty interests.
    There is life, and…
    and there is life.

    The only people who can sue for deprivation of life are the relatives of someone whose life was lost in a wrongful death suit. The only people who have “life interests” are convicts on death row who have “residual life interests” until the date and hour of their executions. (That is, if a guard or another prisoner kills someone on death row before their appointed minute, they lost their residual life interest.)

    So the rest of us, from Joshua DeShaney to Dred Scott to Trayvon Martin to {blah blah blah} do not have life interests until our lives are either gone or about to be forfeit.

    So in the South, back in the early 90s, there was a woman who had a custody battle in a county courthouse, presided over by the only judge in that county (small population, I don’t remember even the state). She is in the middle of the battle and has no money for a lawyer. Judge calls her into chambers and tells her for oral sex, she will get to keep her kids; otherwise, dad gets them. So she performs and then leaves and is able to keep her kids but someone convinces her to go to the US atty in the jurisdiction, who perhaps is an enemy of the judge, or something, so he decides to go ahead and use 42 USC 1981 and get the judge charged with criminal deprivation of the mother’s constitutional rights. It gets overturned on appeal, however, guess how? The woman did not lose her property interest OR her liberty interest by giving sex for custody. In fact, she was FREE to walk out of chambers and he did not restrain or prevent her. No bailiff cuffed her; she was free to leave. Her liberty interest had not been taken. NO INTEREST had been taken.

    I put together the DeShaney case and the Dred Scott decision in 1990 and I came up with the problem, IMHO: The life interest was missing from American jurisprudence.

    The life interest.

    Interested? Let’s talk. I’ll electronically send you everything, even a coupon for $25 off your next Greek dinner out, if you bite.


  616. Malisha,

    That’s the training, but not what I do. Thanks for the vote of confidence though. I don’t practice or do anything in the legal field anymore. I’m a business man (and part-time writer) now. The most legal work I do these days is reviewing and drafting contracts.


  617. Gene H, I can’t figure out what the picture is that comes up on your posts. Is that a water lily? Where was the picture taken?

    Know any great constitutional lawyers who are independently wealthy and want to spend the rest of their lives writing thrilling stuff nobody will pay for?


  618. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 8:17 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    Gene can I be nosey and ask what you do? Because you certainly can argue rings around many….why waste that skill?


  619. Malisha,

    That is Eta Carinae.

    And no, I don’t, but if I run across one, I’ll steer them your way. :D

    ******************

    W=^..^

    The company I am with would just as soon I keep my writing life segregated from my business life. I’ll just say we provide data services for labs and research facilites.

    As to why I don’t practice law? Let’s just say I soured on the legal profession. I don’t like what it does to people and, quite frankly, it was to the point it was making me literallly ill. That’s the nutshell; not because I can’t, but because I won’t.

    And thanks for the compliment.

    It’s probably a waste of talent, but I’m a much happier and healthier person than I would have been otherwise. If circumstances had been different, maybe things would have gone the other direction by things are what they are and what is done is done. Life is short. Happy counts.


  620. on 1, April 15, 2012 at 10:12 pm Woosty's still a Cat

    Life is short. Happy counts.
    ———————————
    Wise words!


  621. W=^..^

    I certainly hope so. :D

    ***********

    Bron,

    Right, wrong, whatever. To me, it’s just like sparring at the dojo. Keeping the mind and skills sharp is the true goal. The battle, no matter how it appears, is always against myself first. The rest is motion and expression. The shape of victory is not always as simple as right or wrong. I know. How terribly un-binary of me.


  622. SoTB & Malisha,
    Your comments deserve longer answers than I’m able to supply on my Kindle. I’ m still on the road so I’ll answer when I get back home.


  623. See, the technology astounds me. I didn’t even know that Kindles could speak! A friend of mine has one and he charges it up in the kitchen; I’m always afraid I’ll drop water on it and it will explode.


  624. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 7:21 am sonofthunderboanerges

    Did it again! Too many links… duh!

    @Bron & @Malisha – I know I know… I’m probably just as guilty for this squabble too. However, I noticed that puerile men (in their teens, 20’s, or sometimes as high as 30’s) are usually more stubborn, opinionated, and quite egotistical than older men. Men at my and OS’s demographic tend to be less “alpha-male”-esque then our younger gender-counterparts. I mean I thought it was obvious that we share DNA with all animals with no special status with Simians. This extremely specious and now debunked 98.5% theory was first propagated by two ornithologists (i.e. bird researchers). IMO (and I’m not sure about this) But any new study is pointless as we share DNA with “some” animals higher than 96%. I think it is Bovines and Rodents but I’m not at all sure about that. Some people can’t see the GESTALT of possibility of academic fraud and accept specious data unchallenged from their alleged peers.

    (Continued)


  625. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 7:22 am sonofthunderboanerges

    (Continuing)

    Has anyone looked up Christopher Langan yet? Any comments about him?

    BTW when you see letters highlighted here usually with blue, bolded, or underlined you can just CLICK it as it is a hyperlink. You don’t have to retype the words into another browser window. To return here just click your BACK button or hit the BACKSPACE key.


  626. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 7:29 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @WSAC – OS is a profiler????

    DO ME! DO ME!!

    OS, what would my profile be????
    =========================
    Careful what you wish for. Sometimes the profile may not be want you want to hear. I’m not suggesting anything about you. It’s just that it’s not a common parlor-trick. It could be very disturbing for some people. You may be different… I dunno’.


  627. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 7:30 am Woosty's still a Cat

    sonofthunderboanerges1, April 16, 2012 at 7:22 am

    (Continuing)
    —————————————–
    Is your real name Sheldon?


  628. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 7:48 am Woosty's still a Cat

    sonofthunderboanerges1, April 16, 2012 at 7:29 am

    @WSAC – OS is a profiler????

    DO ME! DO ME!!

    OS, what would my profile be????
    =========================
    Careful what you wish for. Sometimes the profile may not be want you want to hear. I’m not suggesting anything about you. It’s just that it’s not a common parlor-trick. It could be very disturbing for some people. You may be different… I dunno’.
    —————————————————————————-
    I would love to hear what my profile would be by OS. I respect his posts….also, I realize he probably would decline to do it as our ‘relationship’ is limited to this blog and therefore probably not conducive to anything quite as reality based as a comprehensive profiling. Still, it would be good to know if I’m coming across as a pathological weirdo on the blogosphere…

    I’m not a fan of profiling in general, especially in the world of cops and robbers where they can do some damage.
    Langan sounds like an interesting guy….the bit of him not fullyrealizing his potential is a bit odd given his recognition…I guess ‘potential’ is in the eye of the beholder….


  629. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 8:00 am Otteray Scribe

    I try not to assess friends, but am not always perceived that way. I recall a certain Chief Deputy Sheriff in a very large department who would leave as soon as I entered the room. Someone told me he thought I could see inside his soul and that I scared him. I must admit that I have a direct eye contact stare that some find disconcerting.


  630. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 8:19 am Woosty's still a Cat

    OS, could you do a ‘mini’ profile given the info from a blog?


  631. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 8:20 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Mike Spindell – Albeit I am using a crappy IBM Thinkpad (thin laptop) from work, I can imagine that Kindle responses are very problematic. I too know how difficult it would be to REALLY reply to folks here with DEEP theological debate. Therefore I don’t even try as it would take too long and frivolous posts tend to scroll off really well thought out responses being lost into the 8-second world. What’s that? Click here to find out. If anything takes more than 8s to do MOST Americans (at least) just give up due to boredom or are just too lazy for due diligence searching (IMO).

    @Melisha – I know Kindles are probably outside your budget. However, there is an e-reader called the Velocity Micro Cruz R102 (yes it is crappy to the geek world). I’ve seen it online for as low as $60 bucks. At a thrift store $49. It can surf the web and has a great 7″ color screen. It’s the poor-man’s (or woman’s) I-Pad. Ask your son about it. I have too many gadgets in my computer science arsenal. I need to do a tag sale (LOL).

    Re: This lady that had that problem with the Southern county judge. You do know that this is the crap that FBI is EXTREMELY interested in. They just got finished with NOLA Police Dept. They really wiped out my state putting our last gov in jail for 18 months! They took out so many mayors it wasn’t funny.

    They are really cleaning house on corrupt local politicians and law enforcement. Remember that movie EOT you just watched? Yup! That’s what she needs to do – contact her local DoJ rep. That US Atty sounds incredibly dense. Why didn’t he/she bring FBI on line??? Director Mueller will have this guy for breakfast and then this lady can pursue civil litigation and clean out this putz’s assets. She was denied due process. This lady could be very well rewarded for her efforts. Obviously there are OTHER cases of his denying other women and may STILL be doing it (or could be STUNG into repetition?)


  632. Gene H:

    “The shape of victory is not always as simple as right or wrong. I know. How terribly un-binary of me.”

    Not at all. But there is right and wrong. I know you think that is binary thinking but it is not.

    It takes quite a good deal of thought on both sides of an issue to come to the correct answer. And later on additional information may come to light that blows away your previous determination. So that needs to be taken into account and your decision modified.

    Like Zimmerman. That is a hard one but when it comes down to it, if Zimmerman had not had a gun he might be dead. I know of 2 people, one a young man who used to work for me and the other Liam Neeson’s wife, who died of injuries sustained by hard knocks to the back of the skull. Now he should not have been carrying a gun on neighborhood watch but if he hadnt he might well have been dead now and Martin would be in jail.


  633. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 8:28 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Malisha – The way to contact US DoJ is right here. It doesn’t matter that she already dealt with a US ATTY. That encounter will all be taken in account. I wouldn’t be surprised if AG Eric Holder takes a special interest in this as it may have international overtones – or not… :-)


  634. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 8:31 am Otteray Scribe

    Woosty, I am not sure, but I think I found your picture. I assume you are a pootie person, and not so much into woozles.

    http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt256/otteraylens/KITTEN_SNIPER.jpg


  635. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 8:37 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @W = ^..^ – No it’s Tercés. But Sheldon Cooper is not my hero. He is a major social annoyance to me. I am more of a Leonard Hofstadter (guy with the glasses?). Here’s a clip from the TV Show:

    The Big Bang Theory – The Friendship Algorithm

    See any social parallels here?


  636. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 8:41 am Woosty's still a Cat

    dammit

    am I the scary then? :(

    what’s a poozie and a woozle?


  637. Bron,

    “That is a hard one but when it comes down to it, if Zimmerman had not had a gun he might be dead.”

    And you know this how, exactly? Remote viewing? Conversations with small avians? You don’t know without a proper inquiry. That was the whole point to begin with Zimmer. You mistake what the issue with the Zimmerman/Martin case was to be some kind of animus toward Zimmerman. The issue was the facts merit a further inquiry and he was about to get a walk. Guility? Not guilty? That remains to be seen.

    As to the blow to the head issue? Who instigated? Let’s see what the forensics have to say before leaping to self-defense.

    Argument by non-sequitur.

    Right and wrong have nothing to do with the point I was making. Right and wrong are intimately tied to the idea of justice as is equity. That’s a different discussion.


  638. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 8:46 am sonofthunderboanerges

    @Bron – Well one of my favorite intellectual actors, Kevin Spacey, said in this very cool movie below: “All CREATURES throughout the Universe know right from wrong…” – so true…


  639. on 1, April 16, 2012 at 8:48 am Woosty's still a Cat

    sonofthunderboanerges1, April 16, 2012 at 8:37 am
    ———————————————————————
    :)
    I love that show
    and that was an excellent episode….and I am a BIG fan of escape loops and LOA’s


  640. sonofthunderboanerges,

    “IMO (and I’m not sure about this) But any new study is pointless as we share DNA with “some” animals higher than 96%.”

    Opinion again and NOT evidence or proof.

    Try again.

    Also, if Langan had had a formal education to help him understand the context and interrelation of all he had read, he might not have come up with the patently unoriginal metaphysical idea that the universe might be conscious and then try to assert it as the psuedo-science of Intelligent Design. The primary problem with the idea is three-fold, but the two most glaring logical fallacies in the logic behind the idea are the Pathetic fallacy combined with the fallacy of composition. The Pathetic fallacy is attributing living characteristics to inanimate objects. The fallacy of composition is assuming what is true of a part(s) is true of the whole of a system. Parts of the universe are intelligent and concsious. Parts of it are not. There is no proof indicating otherwise. Without proof, you don’t have facts, you have supposition. Which brings up the third major problem with the idea. It’s metaphysics trying to disguise itself in a cloak of science and used primarily by religionists to further a theocratic political agenda. It’s not science. At best, it is metaphysics and at worst it is metaphysics coopted for the purposes of theocratic political polemic. If Langan had not acquired his information (note this word choice) in a vacuum and had instead discussed the issues with others (as is the form and function of formal education under the Socratic method), he would not have done something so fundamentally flawed as both his premise and his presentation. Information is not the same thing as knowledge. Knowledge is understanding, synthesis and integration of information and knowing how to weight said information in understanding the universe. His “Gestalt” theory fails as a matter of forming the intellectual gestalt that transforms information into understanding. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. His idea is metaphysical. He has no proof or verifiable experimentation to back his assertions. Without proof and experiments, he has no facts. Without facts, his theory is not valid as science. This is an old conversation here.


  641. I will stipulate that K-PAX is both an excellent movie and a better book (by Gene Brewer).


  642. OS,

    That kitten sniper picture always cracks me up.