October Surprise: Netanyahu Reportedly Wants to Attack Iran Before U.S. Presidential Election

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly wants to attack Iran before the U.S. elections. If true, it is a demonstration of the predictability of U.S. politics. Netanyahu knows that both Romney and Obama are seeking the support of Jewish voters and would be less likely to denounce such a unilateral attack before November. Indeed, they might even help fund the war with additional U.S. loans and military support. What is equally bizarre is the scene of top Israeli officials going to the ranking Rabbi in Israel to get his approval for the attacks. We are accustomed to seeing such influence by religious figures in Iran, but officials have been shuttling back and forth to get the nod from the ultra-Orthodox Shas party’s spiritual leader, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef.

The attack on Iran could unleash a regional conflict and cause widespread destruction. Israel clearly expects that the U.S. will be forced to support it with the likely supply of billions of dollars of loans and replenishment of weapons. Even if Obama had the courage to denounce the attack, Congress would make certain that eventually Israel would be given the financial and military support that it needed.

The very public courting of Yosef to approve the attack included a briefing from National Security Council head Ya’akov Amidror, Interior Minister and Shas political leader Eli Yishai. Israel has long struggled under a political system that gives small religious parties virtual control of the Knesset and does not have the separation of church (or temple) and state that we have in this country. The result is that orthodox parties have radically inflated levels of power in the country and citizens live under laws which openly advance religious practices.

Yosef has criticized secular courts and leaders, including the Israeli Supreme Court which has struggled with the mix of religion and law in the country:

These call themselves the Supreme Court? They’re worthless. They should be put in a bottom court. They, for them [God] created all of the torments in the world. Everything that [the people of] Israel suffer from, is just for these evil people. Empty and reckless… What do they know? One of our children of 7–8 years knows better than they how to learn Torah. These are the people who have been put in the Supreme Court. Who chose them, who made them judges, but the Justice Minister, persecuter and enemy he liked them and he recommended that the President would appoint them as judges. What, were there elections? Who says that the nation wants such judges, such evil [ones]… They have no religion and no law. All of them have sex with Niddot. All of them desecrate the Sabbath. These will be our judges? Slaves rule over us.

The most interesting aspect of these stories however is the alleged timing of the attacks to the U.S. election. The American people could now find themselves clipped for billions more to support yet another war without any meaningful debate. Indeed we may end up an active participant if Iran attacks U.S. assets in response to the Israeli attack. It is the crushing predicability of it all that is so disturbing. The American public has long been opposed to the two current wars, but it has made little difference. There remains a disconnect in the political system as members pursue the course of least risk to themselves and their own reelection. That concern is only magnified by the lingering image left by these reports that we could end up in a new full-fledged war based on the inclinations of an ultra-Orthodox Rabbi in Israel. Hopefully he does not have a veto on the war but this is clearly a decision being made far from our shores.

Part of the concern is that President Obama and his predecessors have gradually gutted the constitutional requirement of congressional approval for wars as reflected in the Libyan War (for full disclosure, I represented the members opposing that war in court). If we were to enter such a conflict against Iran either indirectly or directly, the President has claimed the right to do so unilaterally and many members would privately support the action.

In the meantime, our leaders are reportedly accepting free trips to Israel paid by an affiliate of AIPAC, the powerful Israeli lobby, to skinny dip in the Sea of Galilee
It could be a perfectly symbolic moment as our leader frolic with abandon in the Sea of Galilee as the country is moved closer to a third war.

What do you think?

Source: Haaretz

110 thoughts on “October Surprise: Netanyahu Reportedly Wants to Attack Iran Before U.S. Presidential Election

  1. If this report is accurate and if an attack ensues, an overreach of this magnitude may result in a response from the US electorate that is exactly the opposite of what is desired. Unintended consequences can be a _____.

  2. This article is a wonderful piece of Leftist propaganda. Goebels would be so proud.First, there’s the not-so-subtle hint that Israel’s leaders are just like the Islamic warlords. Then, they suggest that condemning an Israeli attacks would take courage from Obama–as though the morally correct thing to do would be to not support Israel (as the US isn’t doing enough of that already).

    No, the Leftists won’t be happy until they see the Israeli people bombed into submission and Ahmadinijad succeeds in his promise to wipe Israel from the face of the map. Why should Israel exist as the nation, and who needs a civilized nation in the MIddle East anyway? Thwese are the favorite questions the Leftists like to ask when it comes to discussing “the Jewish question.”

    The Leftists prefer the policy of appeasement. They believe that all will be well if only Israel would mind its own business, sign a piece of paper with the Nazis, errr. I mean Iran, and then quietly go away. Hey, it worked for Chamberlain didn’t it? Sure the Jews nearly got exterminated, and some of the best minds the world has ever known were destroyed forever, but that is the price of peace, right?

    Yes, indeed, that is the “right” position to take, according to the Leftists. The Leftists are such moral authorities on what is best for humanity, aren’t they?

  3. It’s the United States of America, Ralph, not the United States of Israel. Entitlement to grains of sand in a desert created this problem and it will not end until this entitlement is abandoned.

  4. How can you deny such a begging kid ( israel ) Give them what they want, they always gets their way.
    Lets have another uncalled for war, like the war on Iraq, which was also so
    unjustified. Guys, we are used to it.

  5. Ralph Adamo: “No, the Leftists won’t be happy until they see the Israeli people bombed into submission and Ahmadinijad succeeds in his promise to wipe Israel from the face of the map.”
    ——–
    LOL, hyperbole much? I think you have hit your caffeine limit for the day.

  6. Israel is one of the most aggressive nations on the planet and is a pariah on the international stage. Is not part of the NPT, yet holds a country Iran,in contempt for peacefully using Nuclear power, how the minority Lukid party manages to control the equally aggressive & tyrannical Washington is absurd. Both of these countries need to have their leaders dragged before international courts and charged with war crimes.

  7. “reportedly”? ABC said director Tony Scott killed self due to “brain tumor” and wasn’t true. How about waiting for real news instead of speculation and supposedly?
    (and what did they teach Netanyahu at Cheltenham, Pa high school? Maybe this guy is the result of bullying?)

  8. Follow the money. Does that lead anywhere?
    Iran would not dare to fart on Israel. Let’s you and him fight. Who said that? Bathing yet? Ha! (scoffing noise).
    And when do we meet the hostesses?

  9. Israel is a strong military country so if they want to bomb Iran, go ahead. Ralph,
    Israel has a nuclear capability now so why should they be worried or need our help?
    Starting a war against Iran won’t be like the 7 day war and it will help relations in the Middle East so much?? Just one more reason to stop military aid to Israel. I do not see war with Iran as much of a reality. Except in Netanyahu’s sick mind.

  10. All those naive Americans who want to wash their hands off the inevitable conflict looming in the Middle East forget that their country relies on imports for 50% of its oil requirements. If the Iranian Mullahs are allowed to get to Nuclear weapons, they will muscle the American forces out of the Middle East and blackmail the rest of the world on every issue. Oil proces will shoot up. Better to take the pain now and fight hard to get rid of the scourge of the Mullahs while they dont have nukes!!

  11. And let’s not forget “nuclear winter” Just like we may see problems in this country as items wash up on the shore as a result of the Japan reactor problem the rest of the world would not get away scot-free of they were to engage in this type of battle.

  12. Vineet,

    “Better to take the pain now and fight hard to get rid of the scourge of the Mullahs while they dont have nukes!!”

    Right on baby!
    That’s OUR oil. We should fight to keep it. Just because those towel-heads live over it, they think it’s theirs.

    Alternatively, let’s play the long game.
    Wait until that oil runs out. Then make them pay huge prices for our windmills and solar panels.

  13. @James of LA–The modern State of Israel was created by the efforts of the United States, and Christians had a leading role in making that happen. And long before modern Israel was created, Jewish people had a leading role in the financing of the United States of America. Thus, while you would not doubt call me an “Israel first” advocate, the fact is that the Jews and the US have had a symbiotic relationship at the very founding of the US. Does the US have a moral obligation to support and sustain Israel? Absolutely, and this goes far beyond the Jewish-Christian bond. And the US has benefitted enormously from its support of Israel. But I won’t go into that here. For now, a history lesson is in order.

    First of all, many of the founding fathers held Jewish people in great favor, including Washington, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, and many more.

    For example, President John Adams and his son John Quincy Adams agreed with Alexander Hamilton, writing separately and favorably of Jews and a Jewish state long before it was fashionable in a letter to Mordecai Manuel Noah, America’s first Jewish consul, founder of New York University, and his day’s most famous Jew. “I will insist that the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation,”

    John Adams wrote to F. A. Van der Kemp, a Dutch-born Enlightenment thinker, condemning the anti-Semitism of Enlightenment writer Voltaire. “If I was an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilization the nations. … [Jews] are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans and their empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind more and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern.”

    Consider the following excerpt from a recent article, Obama’s Historical Chutzpah by Charles C. Johnson; May 31, 2012:

    “President James Madison also studied Hebrew, electing to spend an additional, post-graduate year to focus on it. During the Revolution, Madison turned to Haym Salomon, a Polish-born financier who offered loans well below market rate to members of the Continental Congress. Writing to fellow Virginian Edmund Randolph in September 1772, he praised Salomon’s generosity: “The kindness of our little friend in Front Street (Salomon) near the coffee-house is a fund which will preserve me from extremities, but I never resort to it without mortification as he obstinately rejects all recompense.” Salomon was captured by the British and condemned to death, but he escaped by bribing the guards with gold.”

    “Salomon wasn’t alone among Jewish patriots. Indeed, it’s fair to say that Jewish finance underwrote much of the cost of the American Revolution, something the unjustly neglected President Calvin Coolidge noted with favor in a dedication of the Jewish Community Centre on May 3, 1925. Their generosity, often never repaid, came because “the Jewish faith is predominately the faith of liberty,” Coolidge declared. “From the beginnings of the conflict between colonies and the mother country, they were overwhelmingly on the side of the rising revolution.” He listed the merchants—overwhelmingly Jewish—who cast their lot with the colonists in signing the non-importation resolution of 1765, also known as the Stamp Act, which directly taxed American colonists by restricting their freedom of commerce. “Hebraic mortar cemented the foundations of American democracy,” Coolidge said. “[T]he patriots who laid the foundation of this Republic drew their faith from the Bible. … Every inheritance of the Jewish people, every teaching of their secular history and religious experience, draws them powerfully to the side of charity, liberty, and progress.”” http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/101230/obamas-historical-chutzpah

  14. @Archie Type–Although the Leftists today are the primary threat to the survival of Jews, the extreme Right-wing has never abandoned their goal of the extermination of the Jewish people. With respect to the goal of destroying liberty and freedom, Leftists and Right-wingers are virtually identical. That is why Islam (Leftists) and Nazis (Right-Wingers) are blood brothers, and always have been.

  15. @Rafflaw, So you hate Israel. You are a Leftist, so of course, you hate Israel. You would obviously flunk, “The Israel Test,” as discussed in the book of that title by George Gilder.

  16. 1) Islam is not a homogeneous religion.
    2) There are liberal and moderate Muslims. They are not the problem. They don’t want to force their religion on anyone. The problem is the right-wing fundamentalist radical Islamists. They want theocracy, forced conversion and/or “war with the infidels”.
    3) Nazism was a far right ideology, but stating that the Nazis – which relied upon both occultism and a warped form of Christianity to rationalize their genocidal bent – and Islam are “blood brothers”? Is a false equivalence. Had the Nazis gained control of the ME and North Africa, the first thing they would have starting doing is eliminating the Islamic hardliners as a threat to their authority just as they planned (but failed) to do regarding other non-state friendly forms of Christianity in Europe.
    4) “Hating Israel” and not approving of their actions as a nation or saying they have no right to exist are not equivalent either. There are many here, including myself and rafflaw, who support both Jews and their right to self-determination and yet disapprove of the overly aggressive and hypocritical stance the far right Likud uses in fostering a state of perpetual war and oppression. I love Jews. I love the idea of Israel. The Israeli government on the other hand? Sucks out loud. And the bad actions they take should have consequences that the United States does not have to pay for. They are not the 51st state. They are not owed a goddamn thing from us. They are a sovereign state that needs to take responsibility for their actions instead of acting like a bully and hiding behind our skirts. And we need to stop letting them act that way.

  17. Ralph,

    I would agree that jews, not the jewish people, have contributed enormously through the centuries. Some evangelists support the conflagration of the apocalypse, as it will hasten the return of Jesus, they think.
    And of course, I can not contest the role of the jews in financing the revolution as well as Madison privately.
    But business is business, always a hazardous undertaking.
    Whether it was patriotism is another matter.

    But otherwise your free slinging of left and right as pejorative labels does not speak well for your other ideas.

    One can take issue with Israel and the jews as a community without being one or the other, but only one who has opinions, hopefully grounded. And even some opinions which are a matter of taste and preference. I prefer peach cobbler for example.

  18. Ralph Adamo: One of these days, Ralph, the US is going to get over the infatuation we seem to have with Israel and see Israel for what it is: the small bully in the neighborhood.

  19. I don’t think this would qualify as an October or any other type of surprise. Netanyahu has ALWAYS wanted to attack Iran. The timing could as easily be predicated on dyspepsia as on either American or global politics.

  20. It is in the interest of the United States and the World that these idiots do not get a nuclear weapon. They send missles into Israel every day. Saturday Night Live had it right 25 years ago or more when the schmucks had our diplomats hostage. Bomb, Bomb, Bomb bomb Iran… (to the Beach Boys tune of Barbara Ann)

  21. Netanyahu (or however ya spell it) can give the Iranians an ultimatum. Advise their “students” in Gaza that if they send one more missle into Israel that it will be Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Iran time. Iran plays these name games. Their trolls in Syria and Gaza and elsewhere are really not their trolls. its just like with the hostages 30 years ago.

  22. A new realization for me.

    Israel dose not have a MIS complex. Right?
    Then if they start a war, then who benefits? Our MIS complex. Right?

    So who is screwing us?

    I don’t believe Natanyu will do it. Threats are cheaper than war. And far less risky.

    And war can get you out of office, not keep you in it.

  23. According to the USG, the US has already begun war against Iran. The USG claims that cyber war should be viewed, at least when committed against the USG, as an act of war. Of course, cyber war was initiated by the USG so this doesn’t count as an act of war, only defense.

    Likely what we are witnessing is something called: “hold me back” (look it up) in intelligence circles. It is my belief that the USG has every intention of bombing Iran. US powers are quite busy asking Saudi Arabia to up its output of oil. They are also quite busy in states like OK, the already destroyed Gulf, Canada and smaller nations in the ocean, asking everyone to put out more oil than ever before. I believe they are cranking up production because one consequence of the invasion will be a closing of the straights (at least for a while).

    This is madness. It is my hope that intelligence officers and people of conscience will find a way of peacefully stopping this bombing. 4000 people in Israel asked their own members of the armed forces to refuse to engage in this war. We need to do the same in the US, increasing the numbers who will speak out to as many as possible.

  24. The IDF draftees PTSD rate is very high. And they are not in combat. What we ask our men and women to do is inhumane to them. And a war crime under sleazy grounds in both wars. So what’s new, says Sitting Bull?

  25. What’s new? Nothing much as of yet. That does not mean that nothing new, meaning real peaceful resistance to injustice and war crimes is impossible. It means we need to keep trying.

  26. It’s all just a chess match till the bombs and artillery goes off,…. or somebody kicks over the chessboard and insanity happens. NetanYahoo sounds like he’s about to start talking with his feet.

  27. Ralph,
    I do not hate Israel. One can disagree with Israel’s actions at times, can’t they? All lefties do not hate Israel. That is a bunch of c-ap.

  28. Netanyahuor or anyone yelling attach are not of God to yell attach. How could they be? . If Jesus who is God yelled attach on us who is Jesus he would have never said Father for give them for they know not what they do. He would have gotten enraged calling for revenge. That would have been devastating to say the least

  29. Iran is intent on getting nuclear bombs. Iran is more dangerous than any country since Nazi Germany or Japan in WWII. Much more dangerous than the Soviet Union was. Why? Because they have this mullah crap coming out their ears and they want to exterminate Israel and the United States. Take them at their own words and watch their every day deeds in sending missles into Israel from Gaza. Bomb all of their nuclear facilities and then some. Dont invade. We might have to invade Syria.

  30. Sling Trebuchet said, “Wait until that oil runs out. Then make them pay huge prices for our windmills and solar panels.”

    How about our water?

  31. Ralph,

    “That is why Islam (Leftists) and Nazis (Right-Wingers) are blood brothers, and always have been.”
    Get some help with your one-liners. Satire requires at least a shading of truth. It’s done with a scalpel, not an ax.

    I do have to admire your packing so much delusion into one sentence.
    Islamic people are not leftists.
    Islamic people and Nazis, or Right-Wingers, are not even acquaintances.
    I get the contradictions, but why is that funny?

    Your heavy-handed attempt at social satire is not amusing.
    We were trying to discuss a serious problem.

  32. NuttinYahoo and Romney must have been talking. Romney says that we need another one hundred thousand American troops, more ships, more airplanes, more minors at rest stops. More everything.

  33. This is an interesting article. But the author has made the same ignorant miscalculation as nearly every other observer of American-Israeli politics. American Jews are overwhelmingly opposed to war with Iran. So are most Israelis. It’s not the Jews whose vote Netanyahu hopes to manipulate. It’s the Evangelical followers of Bibi’s paymasters in the Christian Zionist movement. The “Jewish lobby” is actually a Dominionist cabal.

    http://rt.com/news/israelis-oppose-iran-war-936/
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Israelis-Against-War-on-Ir-by-Stephen-Lendman-120817-410.html

  34. Rev, love your posts. However, while i hesitate to advocate for Iran, I have to say that Iran has the right, as an independant nation, to defend itself. Look at it this way. Iran is surrounded by countries whose governments are hostile to it (Israel, for example). Now they aren’t exactly blameless here. A lot of the hostility they engendered themselves. But seems to me when you have the governments of, say, the US, GB, Germany, etc, in other words, the countries which are nuclear powers (we don’t know about Israel, but it’s a pretty good guess that they have at least ONE bomb and we probably gave it to them) banded together against you, one can hardly blame them for seeking to defend themselves. We have taken the view that we have the right to tell these countries what to do and how to do it. To me, it’s no wonder that Iran is trying to develop a bomb. They need one to defend themselves from US and our friends.

  35. Think to drop a bomb on anyone, and one has already exploded in the soul of the one wishing that a bomb was dropped. Think the dropping was good, and the soul of the one wishing -will stay dead.

  36. Yeah.
    Let’s drop the big one on them.
    Neighbouring countries will be grateful.
    What could possibly got wrong?

  37. It’s thinking like that that has kept you out of some of the finest war colleges in the world, Jim.

    “Willing to” and “intending to” are not the same thing. The power is in the threat of the thing. The actual application of this particular tactic is a game of diminishing returns in addition to the fact that tactically deploying even one or two nuclear weapons or a limited exchange would have to be done in a very careful way so as to avoid Armageddon. Even then, studies have shown that setting off more the a few medium yield multiple warhead weapons would likely screw the Earth’s ecosystem anyway. Nuclear weapons are a weapon of coercion, applicable in extremely limited circumstance and for last resort use only. Anyone “intending” to use them because they have them? Is insane and/or wants to meet Jesus in person (not mutually exclusive states). The only people who win a full out nuclear war are the cockroaches.

    And this is coming from a guy who has advocated using them as a deterrent backed by limited use in narrowly defined scenarios before.

    Intend?

    Holy shit, Jim. You’ve said some loopy theocratic things before, but that? That’s simply monstrous. Would Jesus have used nukes on the Romans simply because he had them? Eh, I don’t think so.

    Let me guess. You just misused one word.

  38. I am a staunch defender of the Israelis to do what it takes to survive. The images I grew up with will never leave me. I’ve seen many other images since but nothing quite matches the systematic extermination of so many innocent people. On the other hand, I am disgusted by extremism coming from Israel just as I am with extremism coming from anywhere else and by any party. The ultra-orthodox rabbis views on women really get to me, BIG time. I have from time to time followed the absolute infatuation by what appear to be many Evangelical Christians with the Jewish people of Israel and I don’t trust the former at all. This ‘love’ has deeper reasons like the ‘armageddon’ theory mentioned earlier, and of course business, and of course an ally in the volatile Middle East for the US. When I moved here from Belgium I was sure I’d be the staunchest supporter of Jewish people and of the Israeli state but I have found that I can’t match the supposed love-fest seen for Israel in the US. I was criticized in Belgium for being a ‘Jew-lover’ and here I am a an anti-semite when I criticize some actions of some in the Jewish government. This isn’t right. Whether I am a liberal or not, my sense of justice says this isn’t right. I don’t know the answer to the Iran problem but I do know the Iranian community here and they hate Ahmamenidjad like nobody else but boy, do they hate the idea of America getting involved in a war with Iran. Again, it’s all about religion and seemingly radical religious people are winning. I don’t like it a bit.

  39. Satan is the only one who like destruction, and you know it. Save your souls. Be like Jesus is who exercised more restraint than any man having ultimate power at his fingertips not using it.

  40. Gene H.

    Have you ever read the Old Testament? Out of many examples just look at what happened to all of the Egyptians who pursued Moses. They all drowned in the Red Sea. God’s chosen people should be protected at all costs.

  41. Nick,
    You asked for my take on this and I ‘ll give it succinctly. Bibi is an idiot controlled by right wing American Republican Jews (a minority of a minority), the Rabbi is a blasphemous ass who in his egotism pretends to know God’s thoughts and Mark in his comment above has it right.

  42. Vote me with Mike Spindell on this one. I’m so tired of the layers and layers of misunderstanding that have come into chaos-play because of Bibi and his band of thoughtless bombasts. Problem is, real people’s real children are going to be in real danger real soon because of all this and so long as Bibi has his comfortable combative rhetoric, he doesn’t take responsibility for increasing that danger on all sides. I’m utterly sick of him and his ilk.

  43. Israeli army treatment of Palestinian civilians – including children – as related by Israeli soldiers

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-breaks-silence-over-army-abuses-8081393.html

    “… the “belief, which was advanced to us by a military prosecutor, that every Palestinian child is a ‘potential terrorist'”.
    — a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Sample:
    “We took over a school and had to arrest anyone in the village who was between the ages of 17 and 50. When these detainees asked to go to the bathroom, and the soldiers took them there, they beat them to a pulp and cursed them for no reason, and there was nothing that would legitimise hitting them. An Arab was taken to the bathroom to piss, and a soldier slapped him, took him down to the ground while he was shackled and blindfolded. The guy wasn’t rude and did nothing to provoke any hatred or nerves. Just like that, because he is an Arab. He was about 15, hadn’t done a thing.

    “We’d often provoke riots there. We’d be on patrol, walking in the village, bored, so we’d trash shops, find a detonator, beat someone to a pulp, you know how it is. Search, mess it all up. Say we’d want a riot? We’d go up to the windows of a mosque, smash the panes, throw in a stun grenade, make a big boom, then we’d get a riot.

  44. […] October Surprise: Netanyahu Reportedly Wants Iranian Attack Before U.S. Presidential Election (jonathanturley.org) Share this:FacebookTwitterEmailPrintLike this:LikeBe the first to like this. This entry was posted in Financial/economic information, Illuminati/Terrorism/Corruption, Political and tagged Benjamin Netanyahu, Freemasonry, Iran, Israel, Rothschild family, Supreme Court of Israel, United States, Zionism. Bookmark the permalink. ← 8/26/2012 — MASSIVE Earthquake Swarm in South California = BE PREPARED […]

  45. Iran did NOT attack any country in the past 600 years, if not more.

    Iran was attacked by Iraq which was aided by the US, ask Rumsfeld why, for I do not know why. 2 Million Iranian were killed in this war. US made gas was used by Saadam khusein on the Iranian, so it was reported.

    US attacked Iraq, for no good reason, this I and the Iranian knows.

    Iran has a duty and every right to take steps to defend itself against any enemy, near or far. Witnessing how does the US comport itself dealing with N. Korea, who has the bomb, it is not difficult to understand that the choice of the Iranian Gov. fell on the A Bomb.

    Besides, the International Atomic Agency determined that Iran did not violate the terms of the Non Proliferation Agreement Iran is a signatory to.

    May be that we, The US, legalized, unbeknownst to me, “preventive strikes.” This only strengthen Iran’s resolve to defend itself, as N. Korea is doing quite successfully.

    Israel is only piggybackin’ on the US, hoping to cement its land-stealing practices, and to expand on them.

  46. Jim,

    Your statement begs the question (a logical fallacy) that this is a fundamentalist Christian country and that our foreign policy should be driven by zealously misapplied parables interpreted by semi-literate rednecks so stupid they think the Bible is not only an accurate historical text but to be read literally (which is against almost 1900 years of Christian practice in teaching the book as a set of parables and not the literal “word of God” – which it isn’t but rather is a book written by men, largely of second hand or worse information written many years after the death of the historical Jesus of Nazareth (assuming he was an actual person, an assertion for which there is no historical or archaeological proof) and it is riddled with contradictions and outright fabrications). Fundamentalist literalist interpretation of the Bible is a fairly new development in the history of the Christian faith. It is, like most forms of fundamentalism in any religion, a distortion of teachings that men use to control other men through fear, intimidation and ignorance and it is often a death cult practice. It is the refuge of the ignorant, fearful and stupid and/or the mentally ill. Just like fundamentalist Islam or fundamentalist Judaism.

    The United States despite the wingnut propaganda to the contrary is not a Christian country, fundamentalist or otherwise, but rather a specifically secular nation as spelled out by the 1st Amendment and confirmed by the ancillary writings of our Founding Fathers.

    On a legal and international diplomacy level? We don’t owe Israel a damn thing. They are not the 51st state. They aren’t even a protectorate. They are a sovereign nation and as such they have to be both responsible and held accountable for their own bad actions. That our government chooses to let them time and again be bad actors to others in the international community and then run hide behind our militaristic skirts like spoiled and misbehaving children is the result of piss poor policy decision made by pols looking for vote, but it is not rooted in any legal or ethical duty owed Israel. In fact, it is a great disservice to Israel to have let them do this for so long and against our best interests as a nation.

    Have I read the Old Testament? Oh but yes, I have. I’ve also read the New Testament, the Gnostic gospels and many other non-doctrinal non-denominational gospels in addition to the Quaran and the Tanakh (to round out the Abrahamic religions), a fair amount of Vedic literature, many Buddhist sutras and overviews and scholarly studies of many other religions ranging from Jainism to Voudun to the rather ridiculous Scientology. I’ve not only read the Old Testament, I understand it in the proper historical and theological contexts. Which is more than you can say about either the Bible or the Constitution apparently. If you had an inkling of an understanding, you’d realize that the Old Testament isn’t even “your” book traditionally.

    I’ve also read the Constitution, a great deal of the writings of our Founders, a lot of history in general and many many books on legal theory and legal history.

    So if you want to protect Israel based on your reading of the Old Testament? I invite you to become an Israeli citizen and join the IDF or the Mossad. Knock yourself out.

    I also invite you to keep your religion out of our secular government and its policy decisions. Not just because it is my personal preference. But because it is the law.

    Religiously driven “thinking” (as opposed to realistic evidence based rational decision making) has caused this country quite enough trouble already.

  47. “In fact, it is a great disservice to Israel to have let them do this for so long and against our best interests as a nation.”

    Gene,

    As you know I agree, but I think it must be emphasized that Israel is the puppet in this scheme. The “loving embrace” of US foreign policy has merely been a ruse to keep them in line. Israel’s original sense of independence, which served them well through the 70’s, was depleted by the rise to power of
    Menachem Begin. His conception of Israel was the descendant of Jabotinsky’s beliefs, which were those of a small, radical faction of Israel’s founders.

    The propaganda foundations of Likud’s rise to power were the classic, fear driven memes put upon a beleaguered populace, surrounded by enemies. When Ronnie’s mentors took power in the 1980’s, they pushed Begin to move his country from a socialist to a capitalist model, while at the same time Schulz and Weinberger (minions of Big Oil and the Saudi’s) manipulated the entire Middle East situation at the bidding of the Saudi’s and OPEC.

  48. Mike,

    I’ll accept those stipulations without reservation with the following modification: since the rise of the Likhud, it could be argued that the puppet/puppeteer role has somewhat but certainly not completely reversed. Israel seems far more willing to (and shown far greater tolerance in by both our domestic pols and the intelligence community) attempting to manipulate our political system both directly (via PAC activity) and by subterfuge (the two AIPAC harbored spies come to mind) than they would have been pre-Likhud.

  49. Jim 1, August 23, 2012 at 7:54 pm
    Jonathan Hughes
    SlingTrebuchet

    Why have the bomb if you don’t ever intend on using it?

    *********************************************

    OMFG! Jim, you win the internets. See Al Gore to pick up your prize.

  50. […] Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  51. […] One of America’s top constitutional and military law experts – Jonathan Turley – writes today: Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  52. Gene,

    I’m of two minds regarding AIPAC.which I don’t and never have supported. The first is that they have gone too far to the Right in their support of Israel by becoming cheerleaders for Likud. As you know and can see from even my comment above I think that Likud has taken Israel in the wrong direction. I do believe that the NeoCon view has held too much sway with AIPAC and I think that is directly related to the support by wealthy Jewish Republicans like Ron Perelman.

    On the other hand while I oppose the AIPAC agenda as being actually wrong for Israel, I don’t oppose their existence, or the fact that they have tried to wield political power, however wrongly they’ve done it. Should it be any surprise that Jews can act to lobby for that which they believe in? The Saudi’s have done the same thing with Congress and Presidents. They are a major stockholder in CNN. For that matter don’t you think there was extensive foreign influence in getting NAFTA and CAFTA passed and both those treaties had a negative effect upon American workers and small businesses. The game is rotten through and through. Though I love being a Jew, I’m under no illusion that Jews can at times be just as bad as any other ethnicity and religion.

    Or as another old Jew has sung (after a 10 second commercial):

  53. Mike,

    It’s not Jews lobbying that concerns me (any more than lobbying in general does considering its descent into largely “legalized” graft, but I digress). You know I’m a “friend of the tribe”. However, what bothers me specifically about AIPCA is that they have twice been bust harboring spies. Actually discovered and called to the carpet on it. To me that should be an automatic out for an PAC organization no matter who is behind them. PACs don’t have the diplomatic cover embassies (necessarily and rightfully) do and to use them to shelter spies should be a PAC death sentence. It would even be different if the spies in question simply worked for a foreign owned corporation, but a PAC is a special kind of animal. The corruption in the system from money is so damaging to our system already, I think to allow the compounding of that damage by not punishing their use as cover for espionage is bad tactics and a counterproductive strategy.

  54. “I think to allow the compounding of that damage by not punishing their use as cover for espionage is bad tactics and a counterproductive strategy.”

    Gene,

    The Wall Street Bankers and the Bush/Cheney crime family are still walking around compounding their damage. It has all become a travesty, that would be comic, were not so many innocents harmed.

  55. […] Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  56. […] One of America’s top constitutional and military law experts – Jonathan Turley – writes : Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  57. […] One of America’s top constitutional and military law experts – Jonathan Turley – writes : Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  58. […] One of America’s top constitutional and military law experts – Jonathan Turley – writes today: Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  59. […] One of America’s top constitutional and military law experts – Jonathan Turley – writes today: Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  60. […] Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  61. […] led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. The fact that one of the leading analysis for the WINEP would feel comfortable in making such […]

  62. […] One of America’s top constitutional and military law experts – Jonathan Turley – writes today: Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  63. […] One of America’s top constitutional and military law experts – Jonathan Turley – writes: Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  64. […] led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. – In his remarks, Clawson helpfully lists a series of historical events used to push the country […]

  65. […] led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. – In his remarks, Clawson helpfully lists a series of historical events used to push the country […]

  66. Mike Spindell, although I’m a secular Jew and would not object to my son marrying a non-Jew, were he so inclined, I do attend some religious functions at the homes of co-Jews who are religious, and when I do so, I do what amounts to observance so long as I’m not asked to be the “big macher.” So last night I went to Shmini-Atzereth at the home of an Orthodox friend of mine. Her sister (ultra-O) had it in mind to bring me “home” to a greater devotion — what they call “baal teshuvah” I believe (“return”) and the main reason was that I did not go whole-hog Netanyahu with them. The presumption was that if I could accept God, I would then accept that God wanted everyone to do what Netanyahu thought was godly. How, then, could I possibly resist?

    It brought home to me how dangerous is blurring the line between religious belief/observance and political power.

    Something in me [UNFORTUNATELY] made me enter into the discussion with that degree of honesty that I find myself regretting afterwards, as in, “Why in Hell did I keep saying my piece when I could have shut up and gotten home three hours earlier?”

    Here was the trajectory of the “argument” — mind you I was not arguing at all, merely stating and repeating that the Q.E.D. didn’t make me want to either worship God, support Bibi or vote for Mitt.

    :arrow: Some three, four thousand years ago God gave Moses the law.

    :idea: That book predicted that the Jews would be disbursed out of their land and then miraculously returned.

    :arrow: In 70 BC, the first temple was destroyed and the Jews were chased out.

    :???: They returned at some point and I can’t remember what else.

    :-( Then ten northern tribes were vanquished and driven out again and they assimilated and vanished.

    :arrow: Then the rest were there until the destruction of the second temple.

    :-x Then everybody persecuted them and a bunch assimilated.

    :-) Then they returned.

    :-? That was a miracle of history; nobody else ever did that; there are no Hittites around, are there?

    ;-) How could that book from so many thousands of years ago have predicted something like this? It’s not possible using logic and so forth; it must be supernatural.

    Q.E.D. That proves there is a God.

    :eek: So we need to do right by him now because he done right by us all those thousands of years and now…

    And I offered a few little comments, such as “if you can’t eat with other folks you generally do not marry them” and “persecution doesn’t generally make you assimilate; it makes you circle the wagons and become more insular and parochial” and such-like. But I liberally admitted not knowing history, not knowing cultural anthropology, not knowing psychological sociology, and not knowing the religion itself very well. In the end I left as I had arrived, a Jew but one who did not believe in the religious stuff and who did believe that Israel must negotiate a two-state solution and must not be part of war with Iran. At one point, in fact, when I was informed that the assimilated Hebrews in Babylon had become part of the Iranians, I said, “Then the remnant must not fight against the remnant of the remnant at this point in time!” :mrgreen:

    But just as a substantial portion of super-religious Israelis (aligned with Netanyahu) may have come to some conclusions that a more earthly, less “inspired” statesman could not support, while believing that their extraterrestrial statesman actually decrees it, the super-religious right-wing Evangelistic contingent of this country may find the same kind of motivations very compelling. :twisted:

  67. “Mike Spindell, although I’m a secular Jew and would not object to my son marrying a non-Jew, were he so inclined, I do attend some religious functions at the homes of co-Jews who are religious, and when I do so, I do what amounts to observance so long as I’m not asked to be the “big macher.””

    Malisha,

    I grew up in an environment where it was a large family and both sides of Grandparents were Orthodox Jews, as were many of my 16 Uncles and Aunts, not too mention the Aunts/Uncles who married the original 16. My parents kept kosher and styled themselves Conservative, but in fact they were fairly secular with warm feelings for their heritage. They never joined a Synagogue and my Hebrew Education was sketchily taught by a private tutor.

    Personally, I grew up loving that I was a Jew and feeling warmly towards traditional Jewish practice, but never really religious. When I got married I started to go to Synagogue with my father-in-law, who was a wonderful, intelligent man who went to Synagogue every week. When my kids were born and old enough, my wife and I joined a Synagogue and both were sent to Hebrew School and Bat Mitzvahed. In our home we celebrated all the Jewish Holidays and I attended Synagogue, with the kids on Saturday, almost every week for 18 years. I must say that aside from having to dress up I enjoyed it because if one allows it there is a wonderful opportunity to meditate during a Jewish religious service. Yeah I was the type of guy who shushed people who would have conversations when they were supposed to be “Davening”. They broke my meditative contemplation We also believed that our children needed to be exposed to their heritage, but we never insisted on their piety, that was a choice for them to make. One Daughter is quite religious and speaks fluent Hebrew. My other daughter is probably at least an agnostic, but probably an atheist, yet knows Hebrew far better than I.

    Since my daughters have grown I’ve attended Synagogue rarely, or on major holidays. At times though I have prayed and on some occasions my prayers have been answered. Coincidence, or the Deity, who knows? I respect my religious daughter’s practice and can see there is beauty in it for her and her family. She is, however, a politically active Democrat and liberal. Although some would have you believe otherwise, many religious Jews are liberals because viewed correctly our is a liberal religion.

    Fundamentalists of any religious stripe tend to be authoritarian personally and believe that their ideas are the only ones of merit. Sounds like you ran into a few last night. From my perspective they were being rude and you were trying to be accepting/patient. I feel that anyone who would accost me at my age and try to change my religious beliefs is rude. This is actually counter to traditional Jewish belief, but when it comes to present-day fundamentalists most of them in any religion knows the “rules”, but are ignorant when it comes to the philosophy/religion.

  68. Right, Mike, especially about most Jews being liberals. In fact the recent trend of hyperreligious Jews going right-wing is weird to me. I can’t relate to it. Last night was an example of a few of these folks explaining
    why THEY believed such an affiliation was OK. It was kind of appalling to me but I was on their turf, religiously and geographically.

    Strictly speaking, I did not feel that I was being treated rudely because I recognized an underlying “good intention” on the part of the most coercive person; she wanted to bring me in for my own good, and also, she wanted me to come around to convincing my son not to assimilate, feeling that he was in danger of doing so. OY. Imagine me ever trying to tell my son whom to marry or not marry! NOT.

    Anyway, what it illuminated for me was the desire of the very religious people for a more domineering government, a government that can define all “GOOD” and all “EVIL” for them. That is what draws them toward Bibi and his ilk. Of course, it is so dangerous that it can lead straight to Hell without passing GO and collecting your $200 (although nowadays you’re more likely to collect your $200 by siding with the Bibi’s than by resisting them). But the final theorem before reaching the QED was: “If this is not explainable by you in terms I can agree to, then there is a God and I win.”

    I dodged the bullet by saying, “I don’t know how it happened but it doesn’t move me to any conclusions.”

    About 3/4 the way through the long evening, the eldest member of the family stood unsteadily, right in front of me, and told me the following story, at much greater length than I retell it here:

    “Parents had a child with a very rare disease; his arteries were crumbling and the doctors could do nothing and he was dying. The parents went to a Rabbi who said, ‘Try obeying all the laws’ so they went home and began to obey ALL the laws, for Sabbath, for food restrictions, everything. And the boy got healthy! But two years later the mother went to the Rabbi and said, ‘I can’t do this any more; I can’t stand it!’ and she stopped and the boy got sick again. So the father divorced her and started to follow the laws himself and the boy got well again. And he kept following all the laws and the child grew up in perfect health, as soon as they got rid of the mother who had stopped obeying the laws.”

    I sat there. The woman who had been most seriously trying to reel me in suddenly declared, “If my son [name omitted] heard that story he would say he did not believe it!”

    I said, “I have no problem believing it. There are billions of people in the world. Odds are that something like that can happen, who am I to say that it cannot be true?”

    Silence in the room.

    My own son, of course, hearing that story, would have probably said, “Bad mother, Bad God.”

  69. Malisha,

    You have the right to feel as you will but to me, now even including your further amplification of the evening, I call it rude. As for their good intentions mitigating it, my Father’s favorite quote to me about whatever misbehavior I had done was “The road to hell is paved with good intentions”. Experience has proven the truth of this cliche, at least to me.

  70. […] One of America’s top constitutional and military law experts – Jonathan Turley – writes: Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  71. Iran has been at war with us since 1979. We just refused to recognize it. They have been backing up every thing from massive counterfieting of US currency to funding mexican warlords on our southern border. They have been paying proxies to attack us and our interests for decades.

    The sooner we eliminate them from positions of power or influence, the better off the world will be. They are as much a threat to us today as Imperial Japan was in 1939. It will take the same weapons that ended that war to end this one. We can, whe should, and we must, recognize them for the threat that they are. They are already attacking us, both with infiltrated revolutionary guards across the southern border and by cyber attacks on our critical assets.

    We should remove from them all connection to the internet. We should destroy their ability to generate or transmit electrical power. We should destroy their military capabilities. And we should let them starve in their own dark, feces filled hovels.

  72. Theophilous,

    You are either ‘taking the piss’ or you on a mission to make bat-shit-crazy people look normal.
    This is not ‘ad hominem’. This is my sincere opinion.

    If you are serious about the latter, then I would suggest that you campaign to have nukes dropped along the Mexican border on an ongoing basis.
    That way, if the Iranians shave their legs and attempt to infiltrate while dressed as maids – they won’t make it across the black glass craters.

    Man up.
    If you really believe that nukes should be dropped, then have them dropped closer to the problem. Don’t waste them in some desert on the other side of the planet. Drop them where they will have real effect.

  73. Oh, Mike S, I just now saw your latest comment to me, and I have to tell you, I had a conversation about this evening’s experiences with a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist. (He was seeing me socially, not professionally, but I spoke about this matter because we speak all the time and it was interesting.) He agrees with you 100% and although he doesn’t read the Turley Blog (or any other blog) I have told him some of the things you said and he generally agrees.

    He suggested that I did not want to admit how rude they had been because they were my friends from a long time ago and I didn’t want to feel mistreated by my good friends. I go for that explanation. It still doesn’t tell me how to feel, but it does explain why I felt as I did. :???:

    One thing I CAN tell from this: they won’t be including me in religious observances in the future. This is OK with me. I have come to be almost allergic to most really religious experiences. I’m even a little itchy with the “new agey” spiritual stuff. Perhaps I am really ready for my “crotchety old woman” i.d. card now. :mrgreen:

  74. Malisha,

    I’m glad you’ve resolved this to your comfort. One point does occurs to me about regarding the rude thoughtlessness of “true believers”. Most people who are caring about others feelings, would not intentionally want to attack someones faith. So that leads us secular types to be disadvantaged in a discussion with them, because we don’t want to denigrate their faith. Having known many truly pious people in my life the one quality I’ve seen was thst they were non-judgmental of others. The pretenders to piety on the other hand are quite judgmental.

  75. Mike, It seems in my experience the more they profess their christianity the less they practiceit (I wear earrings I made that read “Obama” A woman in
    church hates the pres and has been nasty to me about it. Despite the minister’s last 2 sermons talking about accepting one another’s positions with equanimity and being openminded this lady has ignored me even when we are to give the “Peace of Christ” to one another after the service. She is an Elder in this church and pious, but Jesus would not recognize her based on her behavior.)

  76. Mike S, yes thanks. But in addition to realizing that the coercive conversation was rude, I am also realizing that since I will not attend any more religious festivals at their house (in fact, I will not be receiving invitations, probably), there’s a real freedom in my having just concluded, “Wow they were rude to me; who needs THAT?”

  77. LeeJ & Malisha,

    Those that believe they are speaking for God are usually the biggest blasphemers, becsuse of their hubris.

  78. […] Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

  79. […] Many critics have argued that there is a concerted effort to push the United States into a war with Iran by supporters of Israel. Patrick Clawson, director of research for the highly influential pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) think tank, seemed intent to prove those rumors true this week in comments as a luncheon on “How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout.” Clawson casually discusses how to create a false flag operation to push the U.S. into war to overcome any reluctance by the public. We have been discussing how many leaders like Senator Joe Lieberman had begun to use the same rhetoric that led to the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how the suggest timing of an attack has been tied to the presidential election. […]

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