Submitted by: Mike Spindell, guest blogger
This blog post is the result of our well known regular contributor Blouise sending me a link, sent to her by one of our other long time contributors GBK. I thank them for not only the vital information they shared with me, but also for the inspiration it gave me. When people ask me what kind of blog to I write for, I explain to them that it is the creation of the well-known Constitutional Law Professor and Civil Rights Advocate Jonathan Turley. The common thread that links most of us here is our support for Jonathan’s work and our belief in upholding the Constitution. The topic raises is vital to all of those purposes.
On May 4th, 1970 I was twenty-six years old. I worked for NYC’s Department of Social Services (welfare) as a caseworker in Brooklyn. Was active in the Peace Movement and had in the last year lost in my bid for the Presidency of the radical welfare caseworkers union. Long haired, full bearded and habitually wearing shirts open to almost my waist, with tight-fitting bell bottom jeans. I was a happy and carefree imbiber of psychedelics and had a great social life. I had failed my Draft physical four years prior due to high blood pressure, which would later turn into severe heart trouble requiring me to have a transplant, but back then I was just grateful that I didn’t have to make the choice between my ideals and the Selective Service Law. So many young men whose lives were drastically changed for the worse by being drafted into that conflict, were less lucky than I because they were my contemporaries, I felt I needed to help bring them home.
Even with the 60’s decade of assassinations, Civil Rights protests ending in violence, Nixon’s election and the Viet Nam escalation, I was still hopeful that my generation would really change things for the better in this country and that the future would bring great changes in economic freedom and social justice. So hopeful was I, that I was attending my first year of Law School at night and envisioned myself becoming a Legal Aid attorney in the future. Then I heard the news about Kent State, the murder of four students and shooting of nine during what was a relatively peaceful protest. Suddenly, this brought home to me the reality of what we were facing in our country. My optimism for change died that day, but not my commitment to fight for it.
As the news proliferated the story just didn’t add up. Supposedly the young National Guardsmen heard sniper shots and in a panic returned fire. That the students shot were at a distance of at least three hundred feet and the ammunition was armor-piercing rounds. It was claimed that there was no order to fire given and that the young National Guardsmen thought they were firing in self defense. As it turned out these were lies and propaganda foisted to cover the fact that those in power in the administration and their follower, the Republican Governor of Ohio, wanted to send a message to those opposing the War, that we were in mortal danger if we dared to try to thwart their murderous rampage in South East Asia.
“The killing of protesters at KentState changed the minds of many Americans about the role of the US in the Vietnam War. Following this massacre, there was an unparalleled national response: hundreds of universities, colleges, and high schools closed across America in a student strike of more than four million. Young people across the nation had strong suspicions the Kent State massacre was planned to subvert any further protests arising from the announcement that the already controversial war in Vietnam had expanded into Cambodia.
Yet instead of attempting to learn the truth at Kent State, the US government took complete control of the narrative in the press and ensuing lawsuits. Over the next ten years, authorities claimed there had not been a command-to-fire at Kent State, that the ONG had been under attack, and that their gunfire had been prompted by the “sound of sniper fire.” Instead of investigating Kent State, the American leadership obstructed justice, obscured accountability, tampered with evidence, and buried the truth. The result of these efforts has been a very complicated government cover-up that has remained intact for more than forty years.”
You will find the article the paragraph above is quoted from if you follow the link below. The link will lead you to an article entitled: “Kent State: Was It about Civil Rights or Murdering Student Protesters?” This was written by: Laurel Krause with Mickey Huff and is from a forthcoming book: Censored 2013: Dispatches from the Media Revolution. “Laurel Krause is a writer and truth seeker dedicated to raising awareness about ocean protection, safe renewable energy, and truth at Kent State. She publishes a blog on these topics at Mendo Coast Current. She is the co-founder and director of the Kent State Truth Tribunal. Before spearheading efforts for justice for her sister Allison Krause, who was killed at Kent State University on May 4, 1970, Laurel worked at technology start-ups in Silicon Valley.”
By the way, my Law School was one of the schools shut down in response to the Kent State Massacre and I was active in the movement to shut it down for the semester as a memorial to those dead and wounded students. Then as now, I saw these killings as premeditated murder in the service of stifling dissent in our country. I urge you to take the time to read this article linked below and its proofs that these murderous shootings, were done under orders and with malice aforethought. As much as our Presidential contenders extol America’s unique status in the world, they are mute to the barely hidden agenda that is destroying what we purport to be our ideals of freedom and justice. The article below gives lie to one wicked truth of our history and should be a sobering reminder of the way things really are:
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/kent-state-was-it-about-civil-rights-or-%E2%80%A8murdering-student-protesters/
Submitted by: Mike Spindell, Guest Blogger
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/17/a-real-history-of-the-last-sixty-two-years/
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/04/01/defending-our-freedoms/
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/05/05/what-the/
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/06/23/missing-the-point-when-the-point-is-obvious/
Mespo,
Thank you. That was the perfect contribution. The great song backs up the stark pictures that tell so much.
Excellent job, Mike. And Project Censored is a website everyone interested in media manipulation should make a regular destination. I’ve had a couple of the regular contributors here recently ask me offline if I think things are as bad as they look from the stories relayed on this blog regarding our civil rights and the state of our democracy. I told them yes and, essentially, it’s later than you think. A review of the items Project Censored tracks, including but certainly not limited to the Kent State “fire order”, will tell you that – yes – it is later than we collectively think. History repeats for those who do not learn its lessons. We need to wrest control of our democracy from the fascists stealing it piece by piece. I prefer a peaceful methodology, but as Kent State and other stories show, We the People may not be afforded that option by the socio- and psychopaths running amok in Washington.
Mike S:
Thank you Mike for reminding is of that sad May day when a US governor got away with the murder of kids walking to class.
I call this the song that won the 60s.
It is so important that we never forget. Keep on going.
I won’t forget the day when republican Gov. Jim Rhodes ordered this. I protested some but not too much after witnessing the Chicago police bash heads in. It was safer to go to Madison and protest.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/government-elections-politics/choice-2012/artifact-two-mitt-romney-protesting-the-protesters/ Yet another reason I don’t like Romney. He protested the protestors.
protesters
What I find amazing is the amount of vitriol expressed toward the dead students even to this day. There is a large segment of the American population that support these killings. The fact that the students killed were not even part of the protest does not seem to soak in. This was murder, pure and simple. Since there is no statute of limitations on murder, and forensic science is getting better and better, perhaps further analysis of the sounds of that day will shed more light on who gave that order to fire.
I hope that someday, somebody will stand before a trial jury on murder charges.
Thank you for the excellent article, Mike. I grew up and was living at the time 45 miles away in Youngstown (site of Paul Ryan’s recent soup kitchen fiasco) attending YSU. One of the victims, Sandra Scheuer, from the Youngstown suburb of Boardman, was a month younger than me. This hit our town very hard on both sides of the war issue. For me, it was the turning point to be more vocal in my opposition to the carnage in SE Asia. But, this was 1970 and most folks in that steel producing town were pretty hard in favor of the Viet Nam War. Many, including members of my family, saw the students’ deaths as justified, exactly as the media sought to portray them. The kids were said to be radicals, members of the SDS or some other “commie” groups or outside agitators (a favorite epithet for anti-war protesters). I remember a commentator at the time mentioning that the guardsmen or their superiors were really upset about the torching of the Kent State ROTC building a couple of nights earlier and this was their retribution. It was and is a very sad episode in American history. I can’t listen to the CSN&Y song without getting choked up at the wasteful innanity and the un-American-ness of it all.
OS:
“What I find amazing is the amount of vitriol expressed toward the dead students even to this day.”
****************************
It’s much easier to hate than think.
While I am no fan of any Bush, the accusations in your blog are way out and have no basis in fact. Prescott Bush was a flunky for Averell Harriman who was a great supporter of FDR, so I seriously doubt he would look kindly on his employee being part of any plot to overthrow FDR.
Then we have the accusation that GHW Bush was part of JFKs assassination or knew about it. This stuff is so out of it that it is surreal. That Bush did NOT start the first Gulf War by the way. That honor goes to Saddam Hussein who invaded Kuwait, a FULL member of the UN. The UN is first and foremost a military alliance which was the victorious side in WWII. To let a member nation be attacked and destroyed by another nation would be a violation of the UN Charter, and would have let the UN become like the League of Nations which allowed Ethiopia to be invaded without doing anything about it.
There are lots of valid criticisms to make, but let’s not go off the deep end.
That’s rather interesting, ARE. Neither commentator nor article mentioned the Bush family or Harriman. But I did mention fascists trying to overthrow the government a piece at a time and you suddenly from left field take the non-sequitur leap in defense of the Bush family.
Very interesting indeed.
What’s even sadder than the massacre itself is how many of those students of Law who were moved & traumatized by Kent State have now grown up to be giddy supporters of a president who lied & kept open Guantanamo, who lied & upheld torture, who upheld the abolition of habeas corpus and who keeps a secret “kill list” from which he can murder anybody, including US citizens, without charges, let alone a fair trial.
A more inconsistent & hypocritical mindset is difficult to fathom.
Karl, Daniel Ellsberg say vote Obama in swing states.so does Chomsky.
When Kent State happened we were all so shocked that we couldn’t draw the conclusions. Now, we can draw the conclusions.
1. Psychotic out-of-range intense terroristic violence WORKS — if it’s done by the guys who have all the big guns.
2. It works over time and it does not get diluted very easily.
3. If you show that you are willing to absolutely destroy anybody who might gain enough of a foothold to eventually begin to deprive you of the big guns, you greatly decrease the chances that anybody WILL.
4. Forty years or so later you can get away with anything.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/daniel_ellsberg_urges_activists_in_swing_states_to_vote_for_obama_20121018/
“Prescott Bush was a flunky for Averell Harriman who was a great supporter of FDR, so I seriously doubt he would look kindly on his employee being part of any plot to overthrow FDR.”
Arthur,
I think sometimes you read too quickly and in your haste miss the point of what was being said. This guest blog was wrapped around the article linked here:
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/kent-state-was-it-about-civil-rights-or-%E2%80%A8murdering-student-protesters/
Under “Submitted by: Mike Spindell, Guest Blogger” I listed four links from my past guest blogs that abut on the topic and I thought would be useful for the reader to know where I’m coming from. One of those guest blogs titled
“A Real History of the Last Sixty-Two Years” indeed is an indictment of the Bush family:
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/17/a-real-history-of-the-last-sixty-two-years/
The fact that Averill Harriman was a great supporter of FDR does not mean that Harriman was a good person. He was born of an oil baron and formed the investment bank which became Brown Bros., Harriman. This piece of information from wikipedia may be of interest:
“While While Averell Harriman served as Senior Partner of Brown Brothers Harriman & Co., Harriman Bank was the main Wall Street connection for German companies and the varied U.S. financial interests of Fritz Thyssen, who had been an early financial backer of the Nazi party until 1938, but who by 1939 had fled Germany and was bitterly denouncing Adolf Hitler. Business transactions for profit with Nazi Germany were not illegal when Hitler declared war on the US, but, six days after the attack on Pearl Harbor, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Trading With the Enemy Act after it had been made public that U.S. companies were doing business with the declared enemy of the United States. On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City who had been an early financial backer of the Nazi party until 1938, but who by 1939 had fled Germany and was bitterly denouncing Adolf Hitler. Business transactions for profit with Nazi Germany were not illegal when Hitler declared war on the US, but, six days after the attack on Pearl Harbor, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Trading With the Enemy Act after it had been made public that U.S. companies were doing business with the declared enemy of the United States. On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City.”
Prescott Bush was a partner in one of the banks seized along with the infamous Dulles Brothers of Eisenhower Administration fame. I would suggest that rather than focusing on my prose in the article, you peruse the proofs which are linked and then get back to me.
Arthur Randolph Erb 1, October 27, 2012 at 10:17 am
…
I seriously doubt he would look kindly on his employee being part of any plot to overthrow FDR.
===============================================
The spirit of Judas Iscariot is not written about only in the pages of the Bible.
Traitors are found everywhere, including those in the U.S.eh? that are not of the U.S.A.
The General who helped protect FDR and helped expose the plot clearly explains that fact:
(The Universal Smedley, quoting General Butler, 1933 speech). The Plutocracy which killed the Kent State kids, as Mike S has pointed out in this post, is stronger by far than it ever has been (The Homeland: Big Brother Plutonomy).
GeneH,
I was about to ask a similar question of ARE, since in the few minutes after the posting of the blog, he has read all the blogs referenced and managed to find something about the Bush family.
For those who remember, MikeS did come out indirectly against the Bushes in reviewing and approving in a book review here, written by Russ Baker. I am still digesting it page by torturous page. Read it all.
So ARE has likely held a grudge all this while waiting for a time to deliver his apparent non sequitur.
Oh it followe, he is an agent of he Bushes, a protegé or an CIA officer or agent. No matter, I have no
proof. Hiding proof in multiple layers and pre-arranged red herrings is a specialty of the CIA.
But Russ Baker delivers a narrative which holds.
Can I ask if ARE has connections to the Texas Republican scene, or the oil business?
“What’s even sadder than the massacre itself is how many of those students of Law who were moved & traumatized by Kent State have now grown up to be giddy supporters of a president who lied & kept open Guantanamo, who lied & upheld torture, who upheld the abolition of habeas corpus and who keeps a secret “kill list” from which he can murder anybody, including US citizens, without charges, let alone a fair trial.
A more inconsistent & hypocritical mindset is difficult to fathom.”
Ah Karl,
Once again wielding your scalpel at the throats of people in who in some sense are more politically astute than you and prefer to look and the long game rather than a temporary ejaculation of political purity, accomplishing nothing more than self-congratulation. I urge no-one to vote for Barack Obama if they believe that such a vote would violate their ethical or moral beliefs. Many here who I agree with on most things political, like Gene H. and Tony C. have categorically stated that they won’t vote for the President, but have never questioned whether I am being hypocritical and or inconsistent.
As SwM pointed out and linked people with far more credentials than your own, for having put themselves on the line fighting the Corporatocracy, Chomsky and Ellsberg have urged voting for Obama in swing states. They have done so despite the ills you mention with the Obama Administration, simply because the alternative is unacceptable. A Romney election will destroy women’s rights in this country and rein further misery down onto the backs of 99% of the people in this country. However, for you Karl…..never mind you will feel so comforted by the fact that you performed your “Beau Geste” and so contemptuous of those that didn’t follow your lead. You are definitely one of those people I wrote about here:
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/06/02/the-pursuit-of-political-purity/
ARE says:
“Prescott Bush was a flunky for Averell Harriman who was a great supporter of FDR, so I seriously doubt he would look kindly on his employee being part of any plot to overthrow FDR.”
That is the funny part about politics ARE.
Prescott apparently was instrumental via a trip made to CA after WW2 in starting Nixon’s plitical career.
And Nixon hated hie Eastern owners, but obeyed them.
He made Poppy Bush his hearing aid in the NY establishment, giving him for no other reason the UN Ambassador post with full cabinet privileges, ie knowledge but no responsibilïty for what Washington did.
He made also for no good reason, his RNC chairman after that. And Poppy was instrumental in getting Nixon to committ political suicide with the smoking gun tape.
Alliances are OK, as long as they are useful. Some did not feel that Nixon was sufficiently firm in supporting the oil depletion allowances, he also had liberal tendencies (EPA and OSHA), and most likely!!! the message must go out that WE, the establishment,
control even the Presidents very footing and thus his steps.
Do you think Obama knows this. Just as well as Bill Clinton did before him.
As an aside and explanation to people here, they will notice more and more in my comments that I provide links in my comments to past guest blogs I’ve done. This is not meant to be self-referential promotion, but merely taking advantage of the amount of material in my guest blogs that illustrates my thinking. I’m a lousy, slow typist and in one sense monomaniacal in that I read every comment on every blog that I comment on, prior to commenting. This takes up a lot of time in my day and while I love my role here, I do have a rather active life beyond it. Utilizing this database of past opinions allows me to save time in my responses.
MikeS,
Good article and link and references.
I can’t share from here the same as yóu each and the opponents to the students did then.
I can only recall that Kent State was another sign that Ameica’s leaders was continuing to drive us with their whips to he11. There are many minions willing to help,
Bush 2 was a NG shirker, as some other NGs could be suspected of at that time. Bush did not even qualify for his commission, but received a direct one, which normally only doctors do. Politics? Of course not.
Thanks again for your “series”. Keep publicizing them, our nation is as it is, and those blogs have permanent value until it changes; and in effect could stand on a page, together with other GB blogs, as recommended reading for all.
Now I am promoting and I hope the professor takes note of it.
It is interesting to note the obvious attempt to spin the attention of posters from the article at hand.
The beat goes on folks, and as Gene said, “History repeats for those who do not learn its lessons.”
Right here, right now.
Then I heard the news about Kent State, the murder of four students and shooting of nine during what was a relatively peaceful protest. Suddenly, this brought home to me the reality of what we were facing in our country. -Mike Spindell
The following clip came to mind which captures the essence of GHW Bush, IMHO.
Start at ~19:27. (GHW Bush admonishes a nun, after she corrects him. )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9QA5B6U86s (This is the only link to the exchange that I could locate.)
If good Americans only knew what some are already “facing in our country.”
Thanks, Mike S.
QUOTE “Supposedly the young National Guardsmen heard sniper shots and in a panic returned fire.”
REALLY!?? So what was the excuse they used when they bayoneted the 11 people (including journalists) in the University of New Mexico??
Lets see then we have the students at Jackson State University….
Blouise,
“Blouise
1, October 27, 2012 at 12:33 pm
It is interesting to note the obvious attempt to spin the attention of posters from the article at hand.———————————————-
At whom are you pointing? Or have you lost your nerve to put a name on those who offend you. And you, just you, are not a judge here. You speak too often with that tone of voice, IMHO. Nobody is. But you offer your opinions as though ?
The reference to GeneH was fine IMHO, as it was exactly what I said to MikeS, saying that as long as society is as it was and is, then his earlier blogs have permanent value.
So we can agree on that, unless you wish to change now. Smile.
John,
Your short list, which you could of course have lengthened gives rise to an idea.
I am certainly not the first to note that we need a monument in Washington to all those who fell or were wounded, or especially harmed as a result of their efforts to bring Ammerica to its senses.
It should be capable of giving extra space to memoriialize the notable and expanded to include the names of all as their ranks also do.
Hope yóu like the idea.
I went to May Day Demonstrations in DC in 1971– Shut Down The Government. It was educational. There were numerous Nam Vets there radically dressed and protesting and throwing rocks back at hte tear gassing cops. Then I was privileged to be in DC in August 1974. A bunch of us partied and went to the White House and yelled Jail To The Chief the night Nixon resigned. In his Memoirs he said we were saying Hail To The Chief.
Kent State was the largest motivator. This article is good. The government covers up crimes and coverups. Gonna get down to it, soldiers are gunning down.
The FBI’s COINTELPRO is alive and well in America. The name has been changed and there are other players, but “the program” is thriving.
Great article. Thanks to all: GBK, Blouise and Mike S.
( For anyone who might be interested: http://uprisingradio.org/home/2012/10/25/how-ordinary-americans-are-surveilled-locally-and-nationally-and-what-can-be-done-about-it/
Shahid Buttar of the BORDC:
http://ia601501.us.archive.org/21/items/DailyDigest102512/2012_10_25_buttar.mp3
Shahid Buttar, executive director, leads the Bill of Rights Defense Committee and the People’s Campaign for the Constitution (PCC) in our efforts to defend civil liberties, constitutional rights, and rule of law principles threatened within the United States by law enforcement and intelligence agencies. He is a constitutional lawyer, grassroots organizer, independent columnist, musician, and poet.
Before joining BORDC in 2009, Shahid directed a national program to combat racial and religious profiling, after serving for three years as associate director of the American Constitution Society for Law & Policy. He previously pursued public interest litigation (advancing marriage equality for same sex couples and campaign finance reform) in private practice at Heller Ehrman LLP, after receiving his J.D. from Stanford Law School in 2003, where he served as executive editor of the Stanford Environmental Law Journal and a teaching assistant for Constitutional Law. He graduated summa cum laude from Loyola University Chicago with a BA in political science and creative writing in 2000, ten years after beginning college at the University of Chicago and after a six-year career in financial services to pay for school.” )
Anonymously posted,
A real shakeup. Thanks. Nauseating the evil men do.
Has the video maker done more stuff?
A shame that this could not be the start of a blog.
Show it and ask, “what do you make of this?”
Ellsberg’s main claim to fame was 40 years ago when he leaked the “Pentagon Papers” for the NY Times where he was employed. Most NY Times reporters vote for Democrats. So what.
As far as Chomsky he says that Obama is worse than George Bush & Tony Blair:
The fact remains whoever votes for Obama tacitly endorses a man who keeps a secret “kill list” who by decree acts as the judge, jury & executioner of people who are typically not even charged with a crime.
He’s a man whose DOJ has prosecuted more whistle blowers in 4 years than every other president combined.
He hasn’t lifted a finger to prosecute a single torturer (because he’s still doing it) nor has he bothered to stuff one Wall Street crook in the Pokey.
He (along with Bush) gave the most incompetent & criminally negligent corporate bankers a virtual blank check for $750 billion.
He’s allowed BP to keep drilling in the Gulf.
I’m going to rain on this Baby Boomer nostalgia parade a bit. I’ll be called a “troll” by the sheriff and castigated by others. However, I give this as a personal bit of perspective. I am not, and was no,t a “war monger”. I grew up in a blue collar Democratic[You've taught the pc regarding "Democrat"]. I went to a college w/ a lot of Viet Nam vets using their GI bill to get a college education. They were blue collar also. Fast forward to 1983. My wife is hired to be a Federal Probation Officer in Madison, Wi. Karleton Armstrong was on parole. Karleton, his brother, and two others blew up a math/physics building on the University of Wi. campus just 4 months after Kent State. A young father of 3 children named Robert Fassnecht, was killed in that senseless bombing. Hate breeds hate.
Mike,
Great article. I recommend an old book on ths subject. Kent State, How and Why. I spent the early morning of my 19th birthday in The Jackson County Jail in Murphysboro Illinois after getting arrested on the evening of May 11th, 1970 in Carbondale, Illinois. That whole murderous story changed my life forever.
nick,
There is a difference between troll and trollish. That post was neither. Disagreement is not what defines trollery. It’s about methodology and (in the case of true trolls) intent, but disagreement hasn’t got a thing to do with it.
Good Peace raff…. Or piece…. Take your choice… Mespo…. Lived the era….know csn well… Young was a good addition…. You need to listen to graham Nash “immigration man”……
In retort to me M. Spindell lectures that Obama supporters are “people in who in some sense are more politically astute than you and prefer to look and the long game rather than a temporary ejaculation of political purity…”
That means those people are also “more politically astute” than professor Turley who I predicted would definitely not be voting for Obama after the NWU Holder speech & the “kill list” was revealed — a prediction that was vindicated last month or so when the professor came out & admitted, in so many words, that he indeed could not on principle be persuaded to vote for a man who has so thoroughly decimated the the Bill of Rights and the hallmarks of the Constitution’s foundation.
Karl, If you were legit, you would know that Daniel Ellsberg is still one of the most respected leaders on the left, and that Chomsky said in both 2008 and 2012 to vote for Obama in swing states. You try to shame Obama supporters while not even realizing that the leaders on the left are saying to vote for Obama in swing states.
A.R.E. leaves out the most important context behind the invasion of Kuwait.
1st off Kuwait was an artificial country created with a flat ruler & pencil on a map after WWI by Sir Percy Cox of the Anglo-American Oil Consortium. Iraq had protested its existence to every world organization annually since it cut off a huge chunk of its historic Gulf access in what used to be called Iraqi Province 19 but now stood as a parasitic excrescence in the heart of Mesopotamia, utterly beholden to the US for its survival.
2nd: Kuwait was caught using US supplied slant drilling technology to illegally plunder Iraq’s largest oil field, Ramalla. Uncle Sam secretly encouraged Kuwait to do this in its diabolical plans to set Iraq up.
3rd: Saddam personally asked the US Ambassador if there’d be a problem if he settled this matter with Kuwait unilaterally & the Ambassador gave him the green light. This conversation was recorded and the transcripts published in the NY Times back in the day.
4th: Democracy never prevented a single war and it wasn’t about to stop the 1st Gulf War so on the eve of the invasion, when Congress was about to vote for war authorization but there were lots of Democratic holdouts, the Congress was duped by the testimony of a woman who claimed to have witnessed Kuwaiti babies in a hospital being ripped from incubators by Iraqi soldiers. That was it! They voted yes largely on that testimony but her account was a fraud. Completely fabricated by the CIA. Turns out, as “60 Minutes” exposed too late, not only wasn’t she there but was actually the niece of the Emir of Kuwait who was coached into the testimony made up out of whole cloth. Lied into a war by Bush 1, the ex-head of the CIA & an oil man — go figure!
With due respect RCampbell — “I can’t listen to the CSN&Y song without getting choked up at the wasteful innanity and the un-American-ness of it all — you have a frustratingly naive view of what “American-ness” is founded upon, which is first & foremost violence.
It’s not so hard for a country to thump its chest and brag “I’m the Greatest” when it had the head start advantage of free land stolen from Indians & Mexicans as well as 300 years of free slave labor to develop it and build an infrastructure — most of which was accomplished through abject violence.
In fact the 1st documented case of “biological warfare: was perpetrated by the US Military against the Native Indians who were purposely given blankets infected with European diseases, namely Small Pox, which the Indians had no immunological resistance to, and saved the Treasury lots of expenditures on lead bullets.
Estimates on the numbers are still debated but to wipe out 100 million Indians during Manifest Destiny and 100 million Africans over the Slave Trade Uncle Sam naturally honed his skills at murder, devastation & destruction.
Skip to the 20th century and the litany of violent crime is staggering. Never mind all the lynchings and other domestic hate crimes, the 1st case of bombing by air of a civilian city was not some fascist like Franco or Hitler but FDR around 1933 when in an effort to murder the union leader Sandino in Nicaragua, the capitol city of Managua was bombed by the US Air Force.
Then comes WWII. Never mind the incident at Malmedy, Dresden and the bombing of sleepy coastal villages in Italy depicted in the great movie “Catch 22″ (written by US bomber pilot Joseph Heller) — but consider that Japan had already officially surrendered when an atom bomb was dropped on the city of Hiroshima in the AM precisely when all Japanese school children were going to school and then again in Nagasaki in the afternoon precisely when all the kids were leaving school.
We could talk about what we did to the Iranians with the Shah, or to Arbenz in Guatemala, or the Marine invasion of the Dominican Republic in 1965, or the CIA murder of Salvador Allende in Chile or even the murder of nuns in El Salvador, and then the Vietnam War — but why since what’s thoroughly American is VIOLENCE.
Foreign policy can only be an extension of domestic policy. After all, it’s the same people who make both policies.
The point is there’s absolutely nothing out of the American character when it comes to the murder of students at Kent State.
KF,
Once again in your zeal to demonize everything American, you’ve let your hyperbole overload your a$$. “In fact the 1st documented case of “biological warfare: was perpetrated by the US Military against the Native Indians”. I got news for you sport. Biological warfare has been around a helluva lot longer than that. The Romans used to launch rotting animal carcasses into fortresses under siege. In the middle ages? Europeans did the same thing with the bodies of plague victims. Hannibal launched clay pots full of poisonous snakes on to enemy ships. Poisoning wells by dropping bodies in them (biological) and salting farm land (chemical) are tactics as old as mass organized warfare.
I’m a harsh critic of many of the things my country has done and does today, KF. But I don’t have to make shit up to do it. You shouldn’t do that. It weakens your case. It’s the historical equivalent of being a birther when you make stuff up while there are plenty of legitimate things to complain about.
Karl Friedrich shows his lack of knowlegde and rational thinking. Kuwait existed as a seperate entity LONG before Iraq was created in 1918. In FACT Kuwait was a British Protectorate from about 1890 on and the Ottoman Emoire signed an agreement with the Brits in 1913 to acknowledge the British protectorate which the KUWAITIS ASKED for. I guess that you think that the UAE and all the other states on the Arabian penisula should really be part of Saudi Arabia too.
I am aslo appalled that you spew the crap and justifcations of Sadaam Hussein as good coin. You forget that Kuwait and the Saudis had the same problem with a nebulous border and a neutral zone which they worked out to share the oil. The US charge did not give the green light to invade, but simply said a border clash would not bring in the US. Invading and taking over the whole country was NOT the position. It is absurd to say that the US Congress voted for the Iraqi resolution largely on the testimony of one woman. You have to be crazy to believe that. They voted for the resolution because the UN had passed the authorization for the use of force in accord with the UN Charter. The Congress was simply following the rules. The reason for the vote was that the UN is required under its charter to go to the aid of a member state that is attacked and annexed by another member state. Just as the League of Nations was supposed to act against Italy when it invaded Etheopia. When it failed to do that, it lost its reason for existence and was superceded by the military alliance of the UN countries. When you have a military alliance, you MUST support it or it will be void. The UN and the US lived up to their obligations. Too bad you prefer abject surrender and appeasement as the League of Nations did.
KF is incredibly ignorant. i guess he never got a smallpox vaccination as some of us older folks did. Giving Indians blankets that were used by smallpox patients does NOT transmit smallpox well at all. Also the germ theory of disease did not come about until the late 19th century which is why antiseptic procedures were so lacking back then. In FACT the means of smallpox vaccination that Washington used on his troops was to take pus from smallpox victims and CUT the skin of the recipient and smear the pus into the wound. In fact, if anything, giving smallpox blankets to the Indians would be a means of innoculating them rather than spreading the disease since the virus would be very attenuated and not as virulent. The way smallpox is spread is through living breating carriers, not incidental contact. In fact, Congress appropriated money in 1832 to vaccinate Indians, NOT kill them.
Seems you’re gettin’ it wrong all over the place tonight, KF.
SMom: You mean I’m illegit because I don’t recognize Ellsberg & Chomsky as leaders of the Left? Next you’ll be claiming Glenn Greenwald is also illlegit because he sounds too much like me?
Ellsberg is a NY Times Liberal whose always voted Democratic his entire long life, which precludes him from being any kind of real leftist leader since the Democrats prosecuted every single shooting war in the 20th century. (The Panama Invasion & the 1st Gulf War don’t count since only one side was shooting). Ellsberg’s never organized anything & has never even been on a picket line during a strike.
Chomsky is a self-confessed Anarchist who also never organized anything since anarchists don’t believe in organizations.
Chomsky’s made lots of wrong calls over the years. On the eve of the 1st Gulf War I met with him in Ohio where we had coffee after a book signing at the “Grounds For Thought” bookstore off the Bowling Green campus. I was shocked to discover he advocated “giving sanctions a chance.”
Turns out sanctions got their chance for 10 years under Clinton and the UN documented how they caused the untimely deaths of over 500,000 children and old people who suffered from malnutrition & perfectly preventable disease. Like I told Chomsky at the time: “sanctions are an act of war by other means and when it comes to starving people and cutting off their medicines it’d be more humane to just bomb them and end the suffering.”
Ellsberg & Chomsky are at most leftist intellectuals who take correct stances in many instances but they are hardly “leaders of the Left” because the real left in America recognizes the 2 party system as a fraud, 2 sides of the same coin of a one party state that has 2 factions who bicker over the best way to screw over working people.
Just because those 2 have from time to time managed to delude themselves into unprincipled “lesser-evilism” politics (unlike myself, Gene H., and Professor Turley — to name but a few amongst millions) doesn’t mean we must delude ourselves into voting for a guy who lied about closing Guantanamo; lied about stoping torture & renditions; lied about meaningfully helping people facing foreclosures — a coward who vaporized an entire Pakistani wedding party with drone fired missiles and then goes back to incinerate the 1st responding rescuers — a man who keeps a secret “kill list” whereby he can execute without charges or trial anybody on Earth he deems a bad guy.
No thanks. Nobody endorsing that candidate will have any real leftist credentials remaining after this election.
Karl, Glen supported Bush and the Iraq war. Ellsberg opposed the Iraq war.
Karl, And I don’t think that anyone that is on the wrong side of the war on women such as yourself will attract any female followers now or in the future. You can keep your white guy movement.
Sure Gene: The idea that Romans may have used a form of germ warfare to spread diseases long before Uncle Sam’s genocide of the Indians totally undermines my thesis doesn’t it, just as a potential discrepancy on when Kuwait was founded demolishes the facts of the 1st Gulf War.
Surely my entire line of thought is just “ignorant” as Randyjet has proclaimed since minor debatable side issues surely destroy my whole argument.
Sidestepping knit pickers who dodge the real issues and instead shriek about the irrelevant is a sure sign of intellectual squirming & wounded ideology.
On the contrary SMom: the legions of activist women I know from 40 years immersed in both the Feminist Movement & Trade Unionism know that Obama has only exacerbated the very real war on women by behaving like a gutless turd when bowing before the Republicans with his hat in hand on virtually every important issue facing working people.
He let the insurance companies type every word of the health care bill for crying out loud! Sure, people with prexisting conditions have the right to insurance now but that was a tiny concession insofar as the insurance companies have the right to gouge them based on their prexisting conditions.
Moreover, plenty of smart women understand that the war on civil liberties like Obama’s “kill list” is inextricably linked to the war on women because they’ll never be free at home so long as women abroad in places like Pakistan can be incinerated by drones on their wedding day.
Res ipsa loquitur
KF,
Actually, pointing out a factual flaw (one among many) of your rants does undermine your presentation. Arguments are like houses. The foundations are facts and the structure is logic. A house built on sand will wash away.
Also, randyjet was right about infection vectors. The vast majority of the diseases the Natives caught from the Europeans were from direct contact; simply being here was enough. Yes, sure the Army gave them dirty blankets, but the soldiers handing them out were a far more dangerous infection vector than the dry goods.
But you keep on your strang und drum as usual. I’ve seen you do it many times. You take what could be a solid cogent argument and undermine it yourself by your presentation style and often tenuous facts.
It’s like the thread some time ago when you came in and told everyone they basically sucked and then tried to garner support for your position. If what you are going to say isn’t going to be on rock solid fact? You better be one helluva salesman. And although you’ve got a lot of zeal – I have to give you that – your problem is your style runs off the customers before you can seal a deal.
Carry on.
Thanks to Obama and the health care bill, my wife now has health insurance when we could not get it before. As some folks might know, I am a party to a lawsuit which Prof Turley is litigating on behalf of older pilots who were kicked out of our jobs when we turned age 60, despite the age limit being raised after we had just been fired. That meant that I could not find a job in my field with health insurance since the company I work for now does not provide it. So my wife was uninsured until the bill passed since she is a cancer survivor and no insurance would take her.
Fortunately, we had the insurance in force when she got a fractured vertabrae, so we were able to afford the operation to fix that problem. Without it, we were out of luck since we could not afford the operation. It is the government sponsored plan which is not great with a $2500 deductible, but it works for us.
So far Obama saved my job with the Cash for clunkers, and the auto bailout, and got us affordable health insurance. This is a President who has most directly affected my life since LBJ, and this influence is FAR better than LBJs.
Good for you Randy. Just hope none of your loved ones get on his “kill list” because there is no appeal process.
Karl, Lack of health insurance can be tantamount to a death sentence.
There you go squirming again Gene. A side point about germ warfare against Native Americans hardly undermines an entire thesis about the long history & intractability of American violence — the Kent State tragedy being one of its unfortunate but unsurprising outcomes.
You position yourself Karl,
I’ve said it before about your pompous, preening faux purity, but it bears repeating. Your attitude
about Ellsberg is what have you done for me lately, yet his courage in his singular act excels everything you think you have done in your life. You ignore Chomsky’s valid argument about voting for Obama to cherry pick his statements. You position yourself with the people, but you exibit a lack of empathy for their pain. You remind me of the Marxist I knew in my welfare Union days. Always expressing their solidarity with the people but showing no empathy for them. You are no different than those corporate killers you malign in that they too exhibit no empathy.
There are so many factual errors in Fks post it is worthwhile to debunk them since they are commonly held ones by some on the left. The US Congress passed a bill to provide for vaccination of US citzens in 1828, but only did that for Indians four years later, not only out of concern for them,but because the Indians were in constant contact with US folks and it made no sense to have infectious Indians walking around being in contact with those who were not vaccinated.
The Dresden bombings were not just done on a wihm of mass murder, but because the Russians asked for it to stop an SS Division that was on its way to the Eastern Front. We learned that just recently with the declasification of British archives. It succeeded too, even though we missed out in directly nailing the division, but they were engaged in recovery efforts for weeks after it.
The Japanese did NOT surrender before the A bombs were dropped, In FACT, the peace cabinet that was formed after Tojo resigned in disgrace, refused to surrender even after the Soviets declared war, the US invaded Okinawa, and TWO A bombs were dropped. According to the Privy Seal Diaries, there was still no desire to surrender, until the Emperor himself broke all tradition and spoke in favor of it. THAT broke the logjam. Then the Cabinet asked that th Emperor be retained in his post, as part of their surrender. Truamn’s reply was that the Emperor would be just another Japanese citizen and subject to the orders of McArthur. Hirohito could call himself any name he wished, but he was no better than any other Japanese and had no right to any consideration. With that statement, the Japanese agreed to surrender..
You forget that the US has always had kill lists under GOP regimes. I can list lots of US citizens who have been murdered on the orders of US agencies like the CIA, DoD, White House, etc..Unfortunately most of these people murdered were NOT engaged in armed combat against the US or the regimes it supported. The kill lists of Obama, are geared at those who ARE engaged in armed combat and outright terrorism. Sorry, but when any person engages in that kind of thing even in the US, you get shot at and killed if they cannot take you in any other way. Outside the US and other governmental entities, the capture option is not available, nor is a trial. To ask for that is absurd and means that we cannot act in self defense.
KF,
No, no. That’s not squirming. I’m wiggling with joy over another scree that’s more sound and fury than substance. That I’m unwilling to dissect every point of your “argument” such as it is and instead focused on one item that reveals a critical structural flaw – namely a statement presented as fact that was nothing of the sort – illustrating a flaw by example and not a full formal critique. Why? Well 1) I’ve done that with you before and its tediously unproductive given that your style has no changed one iota from the first time I read your presentations and 2) I’ve been drinking, had an abnormally long day and have a bit of my lazy on.
But if you can’t understand the validity of criticism of form and the weakness of factual error dressed as zealous hyperbole, you’ll never learn to play guitar.
Carry on.
Mike
thanks for the first person insight into the anti-war/civil rights movement of the late 60′s early 70′s. as a preteen military brat at that time most of what i heard about the movement was that they were just a bunch of hippies who didn’t bathe or cut their hair. the idea that they were citizens with a legitimate gripe against the government never came up. most of what i learned of it later came from books or documentary’s.
thanks again and keep the faith
The interesting thing here is something I learned from years of activism in a different movement, not the anti-war movement, although that’s where I cut my teeth. I learned that they ignore you until and unless you are really able to make some inroads against them. Someone asked me in about 1992, wasn’t I scared because there was an FBI investigation into me and there were folks following me for a while (a short and very silly while). I said, “Hell No. If they thought I was able to do anything with all my carrying on, they’d have killed me already and it would be down on the books as an accident or a stroke or something.” I realized that all the activism I engaged in was utterly useless because nobody in power bothered hurting me. When there starts to be a critical mass of protest, they haul off and kill a bunch of people so folks up and take notice. That was Kent State. That was what Kent State was about.
The “unwashed long-hair hippies” were getting somewhere, so they had to gun down a bunch of kids to make their statement. And they made it in unmistakable terms: the grammar of the “SHUT-UP” bullet.
I was on the campus of the University of Missouri at St. Louis one fine afternoon. I was taking a couple of evening grad school classes. I think it was during the 1967-68 school year. The university was building a new library and they had one of those tall temporary construction fences around the building site. Some graffiti artist had painted in big block letters on the fence: “Lee Harvey Oswald, where are you now that we need you.”
I was shocked by the sign and still am, but given the sentiments of the times, I should not have been surprised. I was one of those who never had any trouble separating the warrior from the war, but all too many of my friends and classmates could not make that distinction. Maybe it was because I knew some of those who died in those stinking jungles and rice paddies.
One of my good friends who holds several decorations, including the Distinguished Flying Cross and other hero medals is now an Alzheimer’s patient in a nursing home. He is only 70 years old. His wife showed him a photo of his old plane, and he had no idea what it was, The horrible disease will take him soon and I cannot help but wonder if the disease was accelerated by some of the things to which he was exposed.
I would like to share a song by former Green Beret Chuck “Jeep” Rosenberg. This was performed on PBS’ Austin City Limits about twenty years ago. I get choked up every time I listen to this.
Inadvertently left off the song. Here it is.
Mike S indicated:
OS commented:
Henry George wrote:
(Progress & Poverty, Henry George Dot Org). The friends and acquaintances of Mike S and OS suffered from what we all suffer from, social dementia, not to be confused exactly with individual dementia in this context, nevertheless they have several parallels.
One aspect of that social dementia is to not recognize where we are or where we have been, like some individuals who suffer Alzheimer’s.
You won’t believe it, and I didn’t either, until after studying it more than I ever thought I would, but it is a fact that we Americans in general are incredibly unaware of ourselves or our national history, and have been so for generations.
The number one cause of death by injury in the U.S.eh? is suicide in the civilian realm, and likewise in the soldier realm (soldiers and civilians alike kill more of themselves than enemies do).
Something is terribly wrong isn’t it?
It has a fairly easy to follow trail, it is just that it is a trail that goes through a lot of county fair type spook houses where ugly things jump out all the time, and the faint of heart or mind will soon turn about because of the pain being done to their heart and soul.
Jefferson Starship was not fooling around when they said “when the truth is found to be lies, you better find somebody to love” … because that is the only way you can emotionally survive the truth you find … strong love.
Surviving the ongoing fantasy is easier, however, for nations and empires that seize upon and maintain the fantasy it always ends in self-induced calamity … eventually.
I have written books of pages about it, and read a hundred times more than that, and as Mike S says, one blog post can’t deal with all aspects of it, nor can one book.
Nevertheless I will share a quote to hint at the problem so that those who are so inclined can go down the rabbit hole of our “reality” and see some of the spookiness if they care to:
(Etiology of Social Dementia, links removed). That series moves through several posts, currently ending with a post that took notice of others who have perused this subject matter:
(Etiology of Social Dementia – 7, quoting Huxley). What has changed is not the social conditions that we describe with the word “Plutocracy” , but what has changed is that the populace has been drugged with propaganda for so long that it feels ok now not to know where we really are or what has happened to us, like those who suffer Alzheimer’s.
Who ever said “truth is stranger than fiction” spoke an understatement of monumental proportions.
KF,
Tell me, I am curious, please. Where do you get your pure left ideology, legends, history, etc.? Must be a source on line somewhere.
I mean there are oodles of sites, but none seem really to match what apparently seems to be your profile.
Myself, don’t know much about the Gulf war, etc.
I rooted for the “white hats” of course, hadn’t begun to question what we did in those days. Had had no idea of what the Pentagon Papers were, nor who Noam Chomsky, etc were.
Don’t understand why your eventually faulty fact details (Ellsberg did NOY work for the NYTimes) should detract from your main thesis which I describe as:
The USA was created in war, and since the Great Depression has installed war as our mainstay business, on the side of Phucking first the lowere class and now the middle class. And all stats confirm both of hese contentions, I believe.
And now we have a volunteer army. Why we do, of course, has many reasons. One not usually mentioned is that you get fewer protests from the surviving vets, although you get more PTSD and suicides—just maybe faulty conclusion.s Ask me for proof and I’ll send you looking for them.
But I do know an Iraqi couple, who left there after the Gulf War. When asked (carefully) why, she said they did not want to stay and die of starvation with the rest. So they live here now.
I think you’ve got it. MikeS gives us his version of histroy and its causes (partial list of course).
And you deliver the method and technique of producing in effect the Matrix.
Having changed our way of thinking, our desire to orient ourselves disappears, and it has taken away all mental defenses; thus we stand defenseless.
The election is irrelevant. Our hope for change shows itself to ba a fraud which was bought before his name was even proposed. Either that or even the Prez is controlled.
I, and many others, are still deluded by the the duopolical party system. Although I protest, I can not resist the impulse to declare one is wearing a white hat. Cure?
When did you start reading Henry George?
idealist707 1, October 28, 2012 at 7:26 am
…
When did you start reading Henry George?
===============================================
As you know I had discovered that our nation, and some of those in Europe are plutocracies.
Meanwhile, Mike S has indicated feudalism in a recent post here, and those concepts dovetail.
As to Henry George, (1839 – 1897), a recent book by Chrystia Freeland, a Reuters editor, entitled “Plutocrats: The Rise of the New Global Super-Rich and the Fall of Everyone Else” sent me looking to see what George had written.
I had not read him before this past week when I was perusing her sentiments.
Why I mention George is to stabilize the hypothesis I have advanced for several years now, that the plutocracy has been in Europe and the U.S. for several centuries.
But that structure has been in stealth mode via the most powerful propaganda engines residing in Europe and the U.S. all along, but having grown to enormity in the U.S. in the 20th Century, is out of control.
I quoted George up-thread, which you now ask about, in order to point out the mass affects of toxic propaganda, which many luminaries have told us about for centuries, but which we reject:
(General Smedley Butler, also quoted up-thread). There is very little effort required to determine that this structure has long existed, however, as I said, the difficulty comes in realizing why no one really cares to know why that is.
And as OS pointed out, he and others make an attempt to separate the soldier from the war, so as not to rock the world that their imagination wants.
This is the compliance Huxley saw and wrote about which I mentioned up-thread.
Mike S wrote about it on this blog in terms of Authoritarian ideology which I had also researched and detailed.
I am off into another under the microscope world now seeking the smallest and earliest manifestations of the toxins that intoxicate us into these two continents of dementia.
OS,
The song was beautiful. Your experiences during the war were similar to mine. I never could understand the hatred for the troops by some opposed to the war because our troops were as much victims as were the Vietnamese. In the arguments I would have about it with my anti-war contemporaries I would try to explain this to them, since it was illogical in terms of their own analysis of why the war was happening. The problem is that for all the Tea Baggers on the right, the left has its’ own versions too.
The poster here, Karl Friederich, is one of them. Though on the Left I suspect there are fewer of this variety, but their use of Denial is equally as virulent. Your song made me think of one that I also remember from the era in the same vein:
SMom you’re right that no health care is like a death sentence. I just turned 50 and have none nor can I afford any. That’s why I fought for Universal coverage like the rest of the 1st World has but was bitterly stuck with a stop-gap scheme written by the Insurance giants.
Now if I were given a choice between surrendering my right to habeas corpus and a jury trial for a health system equivalent to, say, Britain’s — I just might have given up my civil rights. Seriously.
Instead Obama took away both my core civil rights and my dream of Universal health care, not to mention kept Guantanamo open; continues to rendition & torture mere suspects; expanded drone killings which breeds more terrorists; prosecutes more whistleblowers than any other President while simultaneously refusing to go after flagrant law breakers on Wall Street, in Big Oil, & crooks serving the Pentagon’s perpetual war for perpetual peace.
Dredd,
I agree with much of what you write, not convinced on microbes, but then ultimate causation has never been my interest, rather my focus is on the effect. Another writer that also described the phenomena of where we have been heading in human society was Aldous Huxley in “Brave New World” naming the universal medication as “Soma”. We see this manifestation of acting against ones own self interest all around us today and indeed it has always been a factor in human history. Whatever the cause I believed humans are “wired” to be suspicious of other humans as a survival factor.
That tendency has always been used by the sociopaths among us to stir up hatred for the “other”, to increase their power over us and to achieve their
selfish goals. Adding in OS’ points this hatred of the “other” is also used by those we might first presume to be our allies in the cause of justice. ID707 is right, as your Smedlley-Butler quote illustrates, that war is a game and volunteers are now used to dampen the noxious aftereffects by quarantining them.
I disagree with ID707 though in his belief that this and other elections are irrelevant, because in that direction lies despair and defeat. I know in myself, fast approaching 68 years, there is a logical section of my thought processes that believes the game is up and it is all hopeless. Were I to accept that though life wouldn’t be worth living and those I fight against would have won it all at last. The battle is still on, though we are in a precarious position, however, 99% vs. 1% gives us the possibility of strength of numbers and thus the potential for ultimate victory. A quote from a Sci-Fi novel I once read goes: “Give me a long enough lever and I can move the world!” Many of us who see the reality are searching for that lever.
Also too, regarding this particular election, I think it illustrates a division among the Plutocratic Class between those whose egos need to reduce the 99% to serfdom and those who merely want to control them without overriding malice. It may be a slim difference, but it make make a big difference in keeping down peoples misery to a more acceptable level. If the Tea Baggers win this year the rights of women not to be chattel will be destroyed and Fundamentalism will rule.
Mike S. gets it wrong again by perpetuating the urban legend of “hatred for the troops” and then trying to lump in my hatred for war as hatred for troops in a very poorly executed cheap shot.
Fact is the “hatred for the troops” myth was concocted & is still perpetuated by right wing propagandists as Vietnam vet Jerry Lambcke decisively demonstrates in his book: “The Spitting Image” which I’ll quote a review of below:
“One of the most resilient images of the Vietnam era is that of the anti-war protester — often a woman — spitting on the uniformed veteran just off the plane. The lingering potency of this icon was evident during the Gulf War, when war supporters invoked it to discredit their opposition.
In this startling book, Jerry Lembcke demonstrates that not a single incident of this sort has been convincingly documented. Rather, the anti-war Left saw in veterans a natural ally, and the relationship between anti-war forces and most veterans was defined by mutual support. Indeed one soldier wrote angrily to Vice President Spiro Agnew that the only Americans who seemed concerned about the soldier’s welfare were the anti-war activists.
While the veterans were sometimes made to feel uncomfortable about their service, this sense of unease was, Lembcke argues, more often rooted in the political practices of the Right. Tracing a range of conflicts in the twentieth century, the book illustrates how regimes engaged in unpopular conflicts often vilify their domestic opponents for ‘stabbing the boys in the back.’”
Concluding with an account of the powerful role played by Hollywood in cementing the myth of the betrayed veteran through such films as Coming Home, Taxi Driver, and Rambo, Jerry Lembcke’s book stands as one of the most important, original, and controversial works of cultural history in recent years.”
“That’s why I fought for Universal coverage like the rest of the 1st World has but was bitterly stuck with a stop-gap scheme written by the Insurance giants.”
Karl,
Your fight is in your own mind. Your problem is that because you so rigidly look at the world, through ideological lenses, you fail to be able to make alliances with those that don’t completely agree with you on all issues. Your analysis also fails internally simple because you understand the Plutocracy exists, but you don’t understand how limited the options are for those who oppose it via elective office. You might as well be a Tea Bagger for all the effectiveness you have on the world, since you good analysis leads inexorably to faulty conclusions via your own pre-judgment filtering out options.
Karl,
I don’t need books telling me about the era, I lived through it and I was in the Movement against it. I know how many on the Left would talk badly about the troops and the most virulent of them were people with similar mindsets to yours. Then too, hatred back then came in many forms. One was that after returning home, with their injuries, with their PTSD and with their beliefs destroyed, those in the country who praised their service the most than blithely ignored their plight. That ignoring was the equivalent to hatred. Don’t lecture me about the “purity” of the Movement Karl, I was a part of it and saw the crap spewed by my own side.
Mike Spindell 1, October 28, 2012 at 10:06 am
… I never could understand the hatred for the troops by some opposed to the war because our troops were as much victims as were the Vietnamese
===================================
Maybe because you think it is hatred to try to get citizens to do their duty when madmen want to send them to kill hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children somewhere they should know they should not go?
That is not hatred, that is telling it like it is. It is tough but it is not hatred.
You are not a war slave, and you do not have to agree with warmongers.
Why do you think so many of them are now committing suicide?
Because after they found out the truth, they could not find anyone to love enough to keep them wanting to live, wanting to stay alive.
This disease of the military has now spilled over into the civilian populace so badly that suicide is the number one injury cause of death in the U.S.eh?
There are consequences for not standing up, and suicide is one of them.
Soldiers who do this choose to be victims if indeed they are victims, but I dare say the soldier worship that is rock-star-ish indicates that they want the adulation that goes along with being our hero warriors.
We have a duty more sacred than being pawns of warmongers, and that duty is to tell them to go to hell when all they want is to put more money into their greedy pockets as they have done for a long while now.
Look at the photo you supplied with this post.
They are murdering people going from class to class.
Those warrior heroes are not under fire from those students going to the next class, they aren’t even taking cover, they are standing up and cutting down unarmed Americans.
Because it is their duty to obey orders they will say.
Since I was a Vietnam era veteran and very active in the anti-war movement, I DO know both sides of this issue. The FACT is that there were LOTS of people in the anti-war movement who viewed us as not only the enemy, but war criminals for having served. The majority of the anti-war movement though was very supportive of the GIs and I felt welcome with some few who did NOT feel that way. Many of those who were not so welcoming were upper class students who never had to worry about being drafted and had the luxury of being holier than thou.
If you will recall, that in all the anti-war demostrations that I was part of, the vets and GIs LED the parade. My fellow GIs were very friendly to the anti-war movement, and hardly hated them. The lifers were not so friendly, but they were a minority, and even many of them felt some sympathy for our protests. In some cases, people such as Col Hackworth, actively spoke up and got thrown out for doing so.
“The Obama administration will soon take on a new role as the sponsor of at least two nationwide health insurance plans to be operated under contract with the federal government and offered to consumers in every state.” NYT Good news………….. Karl, I doubt that this would make a difference to you since you seem singularly focused on the defeat of Obama.
Your FOS Mike and you’ve been sadly reduced to spouting right wing mythology.
I’ve been immersed in the AntiWar movement for 40 years and NEVER once was there any hatred directed at vets — WHO WERE THE MOVEMENT’S NATURAL ALLIES.
The vet’s book above documents this fact and decidedly refutes your assertion.
You sound just like one of those right wing vets who insists he was spat on — although it never happenned.
Sorry SMom I just happen to value The Constitution more than health care so both Professor Turley & I refuse to vote for such a constitutional outlaw.
If he gets defeated it’s his own damned fault for being such a schmuck.
After all SMom. Obama, who ran on a platform of escalating the war in Afghanistan never had my vote — but in the last 4 years he managed to LOSE Professor Turley’s vote so I guess he’ll be just another member of that “white man’s club” you falsely & derisively like to lump me into.
Again, our decision has nothing to do with race or gender (which we agree are being attacked by reactionaries) but rather principles. We can still fight for women, LBGT & minority rights without supporting Obama.
Concerning taking orders:
(About). The duty of all citizens is first to the common U.S. Constitution. When rogue elements such as war profiteering warmongers want to overthrown that document we should deny them the right to command us to do so.
It is murder not to do so under those circumstances:
(Wikipedia). It is insanity to give such an order, and it is unAmerican to obey such an order.
That is why Kent State was insane murder of innocent Americans under the guise of hero warrior worship (The Bully Religion). Bully worship is fake patriotism, jingoism run amok.
It deserves no praise whatsoever.
Karl Friedrich 1, October 28, 2012 at 10:35 am
Mike S. gets it wrong again by perpetuating the urban legend of “hatred for the troops” and then trying to lump in my hatred for war as hatred for troops in a very poorly executed cheap shot.
Fact is the “hatred for the troops” myth was concocted & is still perpetuated by right wing propagandists as Vietnam vet Jerry Lambcke decisively demonstrates in his book: “The Spitting Image” which I’ll quote a review of below:
“One of the most resilient images of the Vietnam era is that of the anti-war protester — often a woman — spitting on the uniformed veteran just off the plane. The lingering potency of this icon was evident during the Gulf War, when war supporters invoked it to discredit their opposition.
In this startling book, Jerry Lembcke demonstrates that not a single incident of this sort has been convincingly documented. Rather, the anti-war Left saw in veterans a natural ally, and the relationship between anti-war forces and most veterans was defined by mutual support. Indeed one soldier wrote angrily to Vice President Spiro Agnew that the only Americans who seemed concerned about the soldier’s welfare were the anti-war activists.
While the veterans were sometimes made to feel uncomfortable about their service, this sense of unease was, Lembcke argues, more often rooted in the political practices of the Right. Tracing a range of conflicts in the twentieth century, the book illustrates how regimes engaged in unpopular conflicts often vilify their domestic opponents for ‘stabbing the boys in the back.’”
Concluding with an account of the powerful role played by Hollywood in cementing the myth of the betrayed veteran through such films as Coming Home, Taxi Driver, and Rambo, Jerry Lembcke’s book stands as one of the most important, original, and controversial works of cultural history in recent years.”
=============================================
Yes, I agree.
But in Mike S’s defense he agrees with us to the extent he wrote “some” of them hated troops who did not resist, indicating that not all of them did.
I can almost here Gene H yelling “false equivalence”, and the book you cite supports the hypothesis that is was the very few, not the vast majority.
Anyway, I tried to console one friend who went to Vietnam by saying “you thought the government was doing the right thing and so did you”, but he vehemently informed me that “we were a bunch of murderers” … so I backed off.
That is only anecdotal, so take it for what it is worth.
I can say that there has been very intense propaganda about the Vietnam war, beginning soon after it ended, to portray anyone who was against it as those who “hate the troops” or don’t “support the troops”, a classic indirection move.
The warmonger Plutocrats were preparing for the next Vietnam, knowing they would have to devise new propaganda techniques.
It took them decades, but they did it.
War is back in now, “support the troops” is the mantra of the meme complex they have created and given strong life in the America that refuses to learn the lessons of history.
Many, many suffer all around the world and at home as a result of not standing up to those Ways of Bernays.
A.R.E. – All of the GIANT antiwar marches during Vietnam were largely organized by the SWP (Socialist Workers Party) and the broad coalition they mustered called NPAC (National Peace Action Coalition).
In every one of those GIANT marches SWP members served as the marshals, with training in keeping a semblance of order through the designated march route & preventing black bloc elements from provoking police.
In the steering committee meetings I attended as a youth there was a strong emphasis on recruiting returning vets to the movement and supporting them, a concept that precluded hostility toward vets, which was anathema to the goals of the movement.
Now that doesn’t mean that in less organized sectors or in some campus anarchist splinters there wasn’t hostility directed at vets. I’m sure there was. It just wasn’t in any sense the mainstream of the movement which always viewed vets as natural allies.
Fact is the most powerful speakers & recruiters of the movement were returning vets. There were indeed thousands of Ron Kovics that were warmly embraced to the cause.
Right Dred. Often words like ALL or NEVER get used when it’s usually not so black & white as there are typically some exceptions. Those exceptions, however, usually only reinforce the rule that the anti-vietnam war movement on the whole was not about fulminating hatred toward the troops but on the contrary — it aimed to recruit them to the cause.
KF, if I can get some of what you are smoking for less than $200/ounce, would you be willing to share? Judging from your writing, it must be some good stuff, and I need a break from reality from time to time as well.
“All of the GIANT antiwar marches during Vietnam were largely organized by the SWP (Socialist Workers Party) and the broad coalition they mustered called NPAC (National Peace Action Coalition).”
Karl,
From their and your perspective it may have seemed that you were leading the parade, but your faction was merely one of the players. Now that you’ve admitted it, I’l explain why I have great distaste for you of the Marxist persuasion/analysis (perhaps Trotskyites may be more exact in your case). You are like the blind-men and the elephant. Depending on what you touch upon you have clarity, but the blindness in your case is the rigidity of your analytic tools. You are constrained to see the world in terms of economic perspective and therefore you miss that the driving force in tyranny of all sorts is psychological. Your world view is stunted by your politics and “the people” are seen through the myth of your analysis, rather than from empathy or compassion. That is why you condone suffering of “the people” in order that they can be radicalized in your mold, which in the end is yet another form of tyranny. One can’t defeat the Plutocracy, if one doesn’t realize the nature of their aberration is neither political, nor economic. Rather it is the atavistic “will to power” that is a compulsion far beyond mere political and economic analysis.
Also Dredd seems to have understood that I used the word “some” for a specific reason:
“But in Mike S’s defense he agrees with us to the extent he wrote “some” of them hated troops who did not resist, indicating that not all of them did.”
Interestingly, despite your protestations to the contrary, most of that hatred was expressed
that hatred was expressed…..by the many Marxists that I knew at the time, after their recruitment efforts failed, as they hated me for the same reason.
Karl, Many of us are going to very unhappy if Romney wins, and he very well could. I guess you and Donald Trump will be celebrating. I sure hope you are very very rich.
Mike Spindell 1, October 28, 2012 at 10:32 am
Dredd,
I agree with much of what you write, not convinced on microbes, but then ultimate causation has never been my interest, rather my focus is on the effect.
================================================
Well, I will be the first to say that I have not yet found the link between the toxins of power and microbes.
However, I have found that world renown professors, who are also practising scientists in cutting edge laboratories which they manage, have found an undeniable link between microbes, the human brain, and more specifically insane behavior:
(Hypothesis: Microbes Generate Toxins of Power – 6, quoting Dr. Robert Sapolsky). This microbe induced behavior is absolutely not “wired” genetically, rather, it is surgically instilled by a microbe that can do what “25,000 neuroscientists standing on each other’s shoulders” cannot do.
I will keep searching for that missing link that causes honorable, faithful soldiers to keep repeating the same murderous, heinous, inhumane, and degrading behavior such as shooting down innocent American students at Kent State in the name of “holy warrior freedom fighting.”
Karl:
you have some interesting ideas on some issues.
I even agree with you on a couple of your points on this thread.
Mike Spindell 1, October 28, 2012 at 12:14 pm
“All of the GIANT antiwar marches during Vietnam were largely organized by the SWP (Socialist Workers Party) and the broad coalition they mustered called NPAC (National Peace Action Coalition).”
Karl,
From their and your perspective it may have seemed that you were leading the parade, but your faction was merely one of the players. Now that you’ve admitted it, I’l explain why I have great distaste for you of the Marxist persuasion/analysis (perhaps Trotskyites may be more exact in your case). You are like the blind-men and the elephant. Depending on what you touch upon you have clarity, but the blindness in your case is the rigidity of your analytic tools. You are constrained to see the world in terms of economic perspective and therefore you miss that the driving force in tyranny of all sorts is psychological. …
Also Dredd seems to have understood that I used the word “some” for a specific reason:
“But in Mike S’s defense he agrees with us to the extent he wrote “some” of them hated troops who did not resist, indicating that not all of them did.”
Interestingly, despite your protestations to the contrary, most of that hatred was expressed that hatred was expressed ….. by the many Marxists that I knew at the time, after their recruitment efforts failed, as they hated me for the same reason.
===========================================
I don’t know about Karl’s political persuasion, but I have pointed out that Karl Marx had a brighter expectation of American resistance to the Plutocracy than I had, and still do have:
(The Impact of Toxins of Power On Evolution, links removed). I can say that your observations of Karl Marx which formed your criticism (Marx’s perception that relevant problems we are addressing are all economic, rather than psychological) is well informed IMO.
For one reason, as my quote points out, Karl Marx’s study and writings preceded Sigmund Freud, the significant cognitive revolutionary who got that psychological analysis ball rolling.
Dredd:
except that you have many capitalists like me who believe that workers should be involved in the bounty capitalism has to offer.
No man can do it all himself, to build a business it takes people who are willing to help you build your dream. Granted it would not come to reality without the entrepreneur but he still needs the help of other people to implement his dream.
Look at most of the tech companies, they pay well to attract top talent and have nice perks to keep talent.
Although you could also make the case that there is high demand for good tech workers and so high salaries would make sense.
But paying your people well makes good sense not only from a business standpoint, you can hire the best, but also from a sense of fair play.
I suggest that KF read Fred Halstead’s book OUT NOW! an insiders account of the anti-Vietnam war movement. Fred does NOT make the claim that the SWP was the main force in the anti-war movement, but it was the main organization that kept all elements together and focused on the war. The Moratorium was the largest anti-war demonstration in our history with Apr 24 under NPAC coming in a close second with over one million people. The SWP respected other political points of view and sought to incorporate them into the mass demonstrations. We even had anti-war Republicans involved since the only two Senators to vote against the Tonkin Gulf resolution were Wayne Morse and Ernest Gruening. The SWP was without question the glue that kept this coalition together and provided the cadre to make it work. We were NOT the main force though which came out in those demonstrations. The SWP probably could have put forward its program as the focus of the demonstrations since we had more than enough people and votes at conferences to do that. Instead the united front principle was used to great effect as opposed to the popular front of the CP.
“Bron 1, October 28, 2012 at 1:09 pm
Dredd:
except that you have many capitalists like me who believe that workers should be involved in the bounty capitalism has to offer.”
Eh hem . . . that’s socialism, Bron. Some kind of fantasy voluntary socialism that depends on the largess of private ownership and privatized infrastructure, but socialism at its core nonetheless. And I don’t think “many” was an accurate word choice.
Mike,
Free and fair elections do mean something. Our elections are becoming ever less free and fair. That being said, elections also only have meaning if those elected to represent actually represent the people in an egalitarian manner and not a corporatist oligarchy with a greed distorted agenda and no duty whatsoever to the general welfare.
This will be brief, my supper is warm.
Read it all from Dredd’s response to my queries, and MikeS reference to me.
I have to re-read it all from Dredd’s mind-opening first comment.
But let me assure MikeS, that I have not given up, neither the fight nor the hope that the Obama-way will give us more time to fight. I say at times, it is hopeless, not to defeat the life-energy of others, but to AROUSE it. To touch on that spot within us that says as long as I live, I will fight to live.
But, perhaps that is a bad tactic to judge from your reaction to it.
Am I the oldest here? And is ARE the only vet besides me? Where were you and when ARE.
And to KF, keep it on the carpet. No FOS please.
And OS, full of his stuff comes in with an absolutely important thingy that others ignore.
Thank you all for keeping the noise and blood pressure down. As one said of me: it was easier to hear when I spoke. So be it with you too (collectively).
PS to Dredd. Never mention disease symptoms in the presence of some people. They immediately get them as well as to all else that they have “caught”.
Now what was it that persons with toxo did???????
Is that why I love cats?
If I had any doubts about how this country is run then Russ Baker’s Bush book is one source.
The other source touches on Bush as President maker, not “Dubja” but Romney. I think it urgent that all see it. so reposting tho link, which I believe Anonymouslyt posted put up.
Take the time. More thrills, strike that, chills than you’ve had for a while.
The question remaining is how do they share power? And how do they control all the elements like the thousands (alleged here) black op groups. One of which did JFK.
Gene:
no, it is called freedom. That is what capitalism is all about. In a free market would you want to be the guy in your industry who paid crappy wages?
When you voluntary pay your people well, that is not socialism.
“When you voluntary pay your people well, that is not socialism.”
Yeah, Bron, because history shows that laissez-faire capitalism did such a good job paying their workers a living wage and looking out for the employees interests so well that instituting a legal minimum wage became political and economic necessity. Oh, and child labor laws. And safety standards.
Yeah. Those capitalists have a heart of gold alright.
Free doesn’t mean free to exploit and generally screw over whomever you please in the name of profits while trusting that you as a laissez-faire capitalist will simply “do the right thing” without coercion when a profit is to be taken.
Your statement indicates you want socialist outcomes (workers should be involved in the bounty capitalism has to offer) without some of the necessary costs (social systems and restrictions on market behaviors) based on the belief that is simply contrary to what human nature and history have shown to be the case.
I dont deny there were some problems with industry during the growth of this country but a good many people were raised out of poverty and given a fantastic standard of living because of capitalism.
Socialism doesnt do that and cannot do that. The “socialist” countries which do well, do well to the extent they allow free markets to work.
I dont want a socialist outcome, I want laissez faire capitalism and I dont think paying workers well has anything to do with socialism. Why wouldnt you pay your people well so that you can beat the competition?
I think what you don’t want is a communist outcome, Bron, but that extreme system is just as unworkable as laissez-faire capitalism albeit for slightly different reasons that are primarily rooted in the reality of human behavior. As far as socialism not working, well, you’ve previously been pointed to examples were it has worked just fine as part of a blended economy. However, since you admit that “there were problems”, you need to realize that those problems were rooted in a lack of regulation and exacerbated by a lack of social programs and that somewhere between the extremes of non-functional communism and the open invitation to abuse that is laissez-faire capitalism is where the answers reside. It’s a choice on a spectrum, not a binary choice of all one or the other. And like the dynamic between maximized freedom and justice, it’s a balancing act.
To relate this back to the topic at hand, the order to fire is a perfect example of what happens when the interests of business (in this case the business of war) conflict with both the freedom and the will of the people. Laissez-faire capitalism has no duty to the freedoms and the will of the people. Its only duty is the bottom line of profit and it isn’t shy about making blood money.
I am not a capitalist, nor an investor but I figured this out recently. It may help others or may be disproven.
We mostly focus on the company execs who we believe
are the overpaid drones who do terrible things to the detriment of the employees and yes even customers. Well we are right so far.
But there are other layers of control of the company:
Board of Directors appointed by…
Major owners ie investors and….
The market composed of large but not major invesrors: finance, insurance and in Europe pension funds.
Now all ot these look at one indicator: ROI Return on Investment.
If the company has bad ROI, then the money leaves, the stock price goes down, and the major owners take a hit, board members get fired, and so do executives.
So who steers the company? The market.
Just recently Bill Clinton was linked here from an interview on Fox News. One of the first things he mentioned was that upon becoming President that he found out that the USA was in bad money shape, and he did not have room for the things he had promised and hoped to do. He had to fix the money problems first or the ship might start sinking.
So it works all the way up. All are competing on the same ROI market. Go to it execs, beat the slaves.
Stop listening to customer complaints.
Now TonyC will come in as he has done before and show how he as a CEO would do it better.
Welcome TonyC. Take us for a nice airplane ride.
Thinking of JYs: things that tick me off—-for example.
Am on the wrong thread again. Just following GeneH and Bron with my nose to the ground, like a beagle with the rabbit 5 yards away in clear sight, but the nose does not see it.
Here is a new ad featuring children singing. Listen to the lyrics closely. This is a powerful message. If the wingnuts happen to win, these kids have reason to be concerned.
If I listened to my kids @ that age they would have been staying up all night, eating candy, and watching MTV. “Smells Like Teen Spirit” and desperation. I love to read body language and listen to nuances in language. I’ve been watching both campaign’s operatives and the Sunday morning shows. The Obama campaign is sweating. Gnash your teeth and call me an idiot, but that’s my read on the campaign @ this moment. It could change. The hurricane could work to Obama’s advantage. But as of 10/28/12 5:02p CDT, that’s my take.
Romney’s people have been told to put on a happy face and Obama’s team want his supporters to worry so they will work harder, Nick. My husband is calling into Florida as I type. It is too close too call.
oops … wants
Virginia is looking good for Obama and Kaine. Maybe, they don’t want George “macaca” Allen back.
Here are the lyrics to the kid’s song in the video:
Imagine an America
Where strip mines are fun and free
Where gays can be fixed
And sick people just die
And oil fills the sea
We don’t have to pay for freeways!
Our schools are good enough
Give us endless wars
On foreign shores
And lots of Chinese stuff
We’re the children of the future
American through and through
But something happened to our country
And we’re kinda blaming you
We haven’t killed all the polar bears
But it’s not for lack of trying
The Earth is cracked
Big Bird is sacked
And the atmosphere is frying
Congress went home early
They did their best we know
You can’t cut spending
With elections pending
Unless it’s welfare dough
We’re the children of the future
American through and through
But something happened to our country
And we’re kinda blaming you
Find a park that is still open
And take a breath of poison air
They foreclosed your place
To build a weapon in space
But you can write off your au pair
It’s a little awkward to tell you
But you left us holding the bag
When we look around
The place is all dumbed down
And the long term’s kind of a drag
We’re the children of the future
American through and through
But something happened to our country
And yeah, we’re blaming you
You did your best
You failed the test
Mom and Dad We’re blaming you!
Great lyrics OS!
Swaarthmore, I hope you are right about Virginia!
Gene: “I think what you don’t want is a communist outcome, Bron, but that extreme system is just as unworkable as laissez-faire capitalism albeit for slightly different reasons that are primarily rooted in the reality of human behavior. As far as socialism not working, well, you’ve previously been pointed to examples were it has worked just fine as part of a blended economy. However, since you admit that “there were problems”, you need to realize that those problems were rooted in a lack of regulation and exacerbated by a lack of social programs and that somewhere between the extremes of non-functional communism and the open invitation to abuse that is laissez-faire capitalism is where the answers reside. It’s a choice on a spectrum, not a binary choice of all one or the other. And like the dynamic between maximized freedom and justice, it’s a balancing act.
To relate this back to the topic at hand, the order to fire is a perfect example of what happens when the interests of business (in this case the business of war) conflict with both the freedom and the will of the people. Laissez-faire capitalism has no duty to the freedoms and the will of the people. Its only duty is the bottom line of profit and it isn’t shy about making blood money.”
One of the most reasonable statements I have ever read on any blog at any time. Ever. Ole’!
What Oro said!
Oro/Raff,
To paraphrase a former regular, one lives to be of reasonable service.
Gene,
So good I’m saving it so in the future when asked the question I’ll just cut and paste and quote you. Why duplicate perfection?
High praise indeed. Thank you, Mike.
Coming to a thread the day after always carrys the questions will someone come and read my comments.
Add to that my corral I am implaced in with unofficial bans on my head adds to the problem. Oh well, such is life.
First I’ll repost and then add some reflectons:
—————-
!Oro Lee
1, October 28, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Gene: “I think what you don’t want is a communist outcome, Bron, but that extreme system is just as unworkable as laissez-faire capitalism albeit for slightly different reasons that are primarily rooted in the reality of human behavior. As far as socialism not working, well, you’ve previously been pointed to examples were it has worked just fine as part of a blended economy. However, since you admit that “there were problems”, you need to realize that those problems were rooted in a lack of regulation and exacerbated by a lack of social programs and that somewhere between the extremes of non-functional communism and the open invitation to abuse that is laissez-faire capitalism is where the answers reside. It’s a choice on a spectrum, not a binary choice of all one or the other. And like the dynamic between maximized freedom and justice, it’s a balancing act.
To relate this back to the topic at hand, the order to fire is a perfect example of what happens when the interests of business (in this case the business of war) conflict with both the freedom and the will of the people. Laissez-faire capitalism has no duty to the freedoms and the will of the people. Its only duty is the bottom line of profit and it isn’t shy about making blood money.”
One of the most reasonable statements I have ever read on any blog at any time. Ever. Ole’!”
——————–
I had, as others did, wished to approve that cited comment by GeneH, but was inhibited by his disdain for me and refusal to acknowledge me, so I refrained.
Not declaring myself a victim, just noting why I did not comment as I was inclined to do.
I feel it worthy of noting that, at least I and perhaps others don’t know how communism might work. All we have to go after is USSR, et al. But is communism as a system doomed to such an outcome. Most of us accept that as a given truth, but is it worth reexamining?
For my part, I am convinced however that laissz-faire will lead to the ills we are so familiar with.
In fact, let us look closer at what GeneH. wrote above:
“you need to realize that those problems were rooted in a lack of regulation and exacerbated by a lack of social programs ”
True indeed. And I would add that most of the ills we are combatting and the programs needed are to cure, put patches nn or simply ameleiorate the problems brought by the laisse-faire model which has been the predominate model since before the revolution. The system of slavery and indenturism brought not only large numbers of humans here from Africa as slavdes, but also a frame of mind that persists today, and which must be fought at the barriars of the neo-cons and on their chosen field of battle.
We are of no more value in their eyes than the slaves were to them then. They may not take away our children and sell them, or do they??, through their propaganda and then send them as cannon fodder to our recent wars whose names I need not repeat.
And if you look at it from the neo-con POV, the costs in human life has been moderate, far less than WW2, and the profits have been enormous.
But to not tangent here, let me only repaat:
Most of socialism has been repairs to a leaky laissez-faire boat, and programs to fix the damage that it has done to the descendants of the slave/indenture system—-and that includes all of the white and black stock—and through our in place prejudice system, includes all others here except the one percent.
Well, to be correct the one percent discriminates too within its ranks. But frankly I don’t care about their problems. Not at all, in fact.
Randyjet. I knew Fred and read his book. He was a friend of the family and we broke bread together. Glad you brought him up as he was a great man and that’s a great book.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/30/obama-first-term-racism-charges
“(3) Oliver Stone is releasing a new book, entitled “The Untold History of the United States”, which highlights key facts in US history over the last century that have been largely ignored or affirmatively distorted. I’ve read parts of the book and recommend it highly (a summary of his chapter on the Obama presidency is here). Beginning 12 November, Showtime is broadcasting a 10-part documentary to accompany the book; I’ve seen the first four installments and cannot recommend it highly enough.”
DIRTY WARS
The World is a Battlefield
By Jeremy Scahill
Nation Books (Spring 2013, world English rights)
http://roamagency.com/pages/Scahill-DirtyWars.shtml