Send God, Guns, and Money: Sandy Hook Shooting Becomes Rallying Point For Political Advocates

praying_hands[1]300px-M4-TransparentThe murder of 20 children and six adults at the Sandy Hook Elementary has spawned an array of commentary from calls for new gun controls to greater funding for mental illness in the United States. However, Fox commentator and former GOP presidential candidate Mike Huckabee said that the shooting was not surprising after the removal of prayer from public schools. Rep. Louie Gohmert, a Republican from Texas, did one better, he wished God ensured that Principal says Dawn Hochsprung had an M-4 assault rifle at the school before she was killed.

Gohmert told Fox News “I wish to God she had an M-4 in her office locked up so when she heard gunfire she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands but she takes him out, takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids.” Wouldn’t it be a bit more direct to pray that God had stopped Lanza from going to the school or that he was institutionalized before his mass murder?

If school teachers are now to be armed, wouldn’t the teachers have to carry around their assault rifles at all time since they would not know when an attack would occur? Indeed, given the low likelihood of such an attack, should they also be equipped with ebola-medical kits, rabies treatment packs, floatation devices, and other equipment for more likely threats. The average soldier, after all, carries as much as 135 pounds depending on their unit. Should our teachers carry less to protect our children?

As for prayer, is that what caused Lanza (with a history of mental illness) to kill? Lack of school prayer. His first murder was at home. After shooting his mother in the face, would Lanza have hesitated at the schoolhouse gate because he recalled morning prayers in civics class? By the way, those terrorists we read about daily do a lot of praying. It does not seem to have the same impact on them.

Putting aside the desire to try a tragedy to a favorite cause, there is often a search for meaning in tragedies. The most frightening thought is that such a terrible loss would not have meaning. It was an unspeakable crime committed by an unstable person. We are all emotionally shredded by this tragedy. However, we know that this is likely to happen again. Even with gun controls, people will still have guns, which are constitutionally protected. Some will have multiple guns. We do not have to shrug and do nothing. There is a need to better deal with mental illness in this country. It was not that long ago that another unstable young man committed a massacre at Virginia Tech. However, as with gun controls, it is not clear that much would have changed in this case. Lanza’s mother decided to keep him at home and tried to deal with his instability on her own. If a parent keeps a child at home and addresses such problems privately, it is doubtful that new programs would have had any impact.

Nevertheless, I would prefer to discuss expanded mental health programs over assault weapons in schools as a starting point of any reforms.

Source: Hill

310 thoughts on “Send God, Guns, and Money: Sandy Hook Shooting Becomes Rallying Point For Political Advocates

  1. Senator Schumer stated that the left has to admit there’s a Second Amendment. I accept there is a Second Amendment. Whether I agree with their decision or not, the Supreme Court has affirmed an individual right to guns based on the amendment. I have to accept it, it’s the law of the land.

    The Supreme Court has also affirmed a woman’s right to get a safe, legal medical procedure to end a pregnancy–an abortion. That the Supreme Court ruled that a woman has that right has not prevented conservatives from putting all manner of obstacles in front of a woman seeking to exercise that Supreme Court affirmed right. There are time restrictions, notification issues, legal obstacles and even outright physical attacks on providers and the State of Virginia sees fit to require women submit to an entirely medically unnecessary, involuntary, invasive vaginal probe and a requirement to endure anti-abortion rhetoric before getting her safe, legal medical procedure. Obviously, the conservatives have set the precedent that one may have a right, but severely resticting one’s ability to exercise that right is perfectly okay. That seems to provide ample justification for strict controls on who, why, when, where and how guns are purchased, stored, training, etc. Perhaps we should demand anal probes so potential buyers can be in closer contact with their brains to consider why they’re doing something so stupid as buying a gun.

  2. Senator Schumer has to admit that neither he nor the gun lobby has actually read the Second Amendment. There is NO Constitutional right to bear arms outside the context of a well regulated militia. Senator Schumer is another one of those people who loves to appear rational while generating false equivalencies between what those of us who support robust gun control need to admit and what the gun lobby won’t even READ! I admit there is a Second Amendment but I also admit that I have read it and there is No constitutional right to bear arms. Show me a wel regulated militia and then we can talk about arms, Senator Schumer!

  3. Guns are synonymous with perceived power. If used correctly you have very few issues, if used unwisely you have trouble…. I’m not a member of the NRA but could become if this right is abridged. But who the heck needs an assault rifle? If civics don’t why do the police?

    This event unfolding is very tragic.

  4. “Even with gun controls, people will still have guns, which are constitutionally protected. Some will have multiple guns.”

    Yes this is quite true and yes tragedies will still occur, but we can regulate the use and sale of firearms, just as we do the the licensing and registration of automobiles. People will still be allowed to have their guns, but perhaps they will have to suffer some inconvenience in their purchase and some restriction as to what kind of weapon they could own. To understand the parameters of this issue a look at proposed gun legislation by the NRA and ALEC look like and think about the implications (from Alternet):

    “9 Horrible Gun Laws Backed by the Right Wing
    The corporate-backed American Legislative Exchange Council works hand-in-glove with the National Rifle Association.
    December 17, 2012

    It makes sense that everyone’s eyes angrily turned to the National Rifle Association (NRA) in the wake of the mass killing in Newtown, Connecticut. For too long, the NRA’s deep war chest and lobbying apparatus has shaped the debate over guns in this country.

    But there’s another group working hand-in-glove with the NRA that deserves scrutiny: the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC). ALEC, the Koch Brothers-backed group that is funded by big corporate interests, first attracted attention in the wake of the Trayvon Martin killing. The group, which brings together corporate interests, right-wing lobbyist groups and conservative politicians, passes model legislation that politicians take back ready-made to their state. The NRA has funded ALEC and co-chaired ALEC’s “Public Safety and Election Task Force,” which passes model bills on guns.

    By way of the Center for Media and Democracy’s ALEC Exposed project, Digby’s Hullabaloo blog posted links to some of the model legislation on guns the group is pushing. Here are 9 of the awful gun bills ALEC wants to bring to a state near you.

    1. Guns on Campus
    Dubbed the “Campus Personal Protection Act,” this model legislation would allow handguns to be carried on campus. The ALEC bill would also “limit” regulations that the governing boards of colleges imposed on the carrying of guns on campus. The bill is part of a wave of “concealed carry” gun laws that have passed around the nation–some with ALEC’s help. As the Center for Media and Democracy notes, “allowing ‘concealed carry’ has been a long-standing part of the NRA-ALEC agenda, passing in Wisconsin a year ago at the urging of Governor Scott Walker, who was given an award by the NRA for making this item law along with a version of the controversial ALEC-NRA “Stand Your Ground”/”Castle Doctrine” bill. A concealed carry law also was just passed last week in Michigan.”

    2. Immediate Firearm Purchases
    ALEC wants you to be able to get your gun–and get it fast. Blueprint legislation passed by the group’s NRA-chaired “Public Safety and Election Task Force” would prohibit waiting periods from being used on gun purchases. “The imposition of ‘waiting periods’ for firearms purchases is a diversion of scarce law enforcement resources away from violent crime and criminals,” .

    3. More ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws
    The Trayvon Martin case made “stand your ground” laws, or “Castle Doctrine” laws, a household name. Martin’s killer, George Zimmerman, claimed that he acted lawfully in “self-defense” when he shot the unarmed teenager. Florida has a “Stand Your Ground” bill on the books that makes it more difficult to prosecute people for killing someone if they claim “self-defense.” ALEC wants to bring more of these laws to your state. Here’s how they sum up what the bill does: “This act authorizes the use of force, including deadly force, against an intruder or attacker in a dwelling, residence, or vehicle under specified circumstances.” Many states already have have “stand your ground” laws.

    4. No Borders to Firearm Movement
    This ALEC bill would, if passed, require states to recognize “concealed carry” permits or licenses from other states. This would mean that the state where guns are being carried in would have no recourse to go after people with guns if they have a permit and came from a state that allows “concealed carry” permits.

    5. Annulling Local Regulations on Guns
    For all its talk of federalism and love of local democracy, ALEC still wants to be able to impose its agenda–even if a locality wants nothing to do with it. One model bill the group wants passed in states is a provision that would “prohibit local jurisdictions from independently enacting restrictions on the possession of firearms.” If a city wanted to restrict guns, they’d be out of luck–this bill would take away their authority to do so.

    6. Defending an Unregulated Gun Market
    Governments, local officials and law enforcement groups have tried to push for gun manufacturers to adhere to some basic ground rules for the sale of weapons. One way to do this is by pushing for a “Code of Conduct” that gun manufacturers adopt. One example of what a “code” like this would do is getting a pledge from firearms makers to not promote weapons for extremely dangerous uses, like killing police officers with special bullets.
    ALEC wants none of that. A blueprint for legislation calls such codes “politically-driven.”

    7. Guns for Emergencies
    This ALEC-backed legislation would prohibit states from confiscating firearms in the wake of a declared “state of emergency.” The group claims such a law would run afoul of the Second Amendment. It also calls for public employees who confiscate firearms to be found “guilty of the crime of larceny of a firearm or ammunition,” if such a law were on the books.

    8. Semi-Automatics for Everyone
    The killer at Sandy Hook Elementary School used a semi-automatic rifle to carry out his massacre. ALEC wants to restrict regulations that would curb the use and sale of semi-automatic rifles.A resolution pushed by the group decries laws and regulations concerning semi-automatic rifles. The “American Legislative Exchange Council recommends the rejection of current proposals at the local, state, and federal levels that arbitrarily restrict the possession of the semi-automatic class of firearms by law-abiding American citizens,” ALEC writes.

    9. Bolstering the Second Amendment
    The Second Amendment is not going anywhere. But ALEC remains worried about attempts to regulate firearms, and passed a resolution decrying gun control while celebrating the amendment. The “American Legislative Exchange Council recommends the rejection of further restrictive firearms laws that only serve to limit law abiding citizens in the exercise of their Constitutionally guaranteed rights while having no effect on the activities of the criminal element in our society,”.”

    During my time on this blog I have continually supported the Second Amendment and the people’s right to bear arms and I still do. This tragedy and the ones leading up to it this year like Aurora has caused me to re-think my position. Knowing from Mespos fine and well commenterd upon Guest Blog this weekend I understand that some have chastened people for reacting emotionally, rather than with the cold logic of philosophers. Would that all of us lesser humans, who do not have the comfort of an absolute philosophical belief in their favorite philosophical idol, be able to control our emotions that well. I can’t any longer. I frankly don’t know how the parents of those dead children can carry on in life with any joy still possible. Yes I understand, perhaps better than most, that unexpected tragedies occur all the time in this tenuous we know as life. And yes we ca’t protect all people at all times. As for emotional decisions my philosophy of life which has kept me alive is the Gestaltist’s “Trust the wisdom of your feelings” and actually that is closer to human nature than the intellectual pretensions of one philosopher or another.

    But damnit if I have to pass a drivers license test to drive and pay for registration for my car each year, why don’t gun owners have to do the same? There are also rules nationwide about oversized, unsafe vehicles, so why aren’t there rules to not permit certain over the top weaponry? Please don’t even give me that crap about the desires of collectors, because I’ll the as you why the possession and importation of ivory is illegal, since I’m sure there are some collectors dying to own it. I think hunting, while ot my cup of tea, is a valid sportsman’s activity. Of course there is real hunting and then there is Dick Cheney quail hunting. Any hunter using a weapon than ca fire multiple rounds in seconds is a Dick (Cheney) type of hunter.

    The truth is, as shown in the quote above, that the “tender concern” for our Second Amendment” liberties, is more the work of greed and pandering to a portion of the population sold on the “Myth of The Cowboy” sold to many of us. That myth is a fantasy, just as John Wayne who personified it, was a fantasy hero and those deluded by it shouldn’t have primacy in our country.
    We must stop being controlled by the fatasy’s of emotional children, that leave little children dead in their wake.

    Finally, the underlying reason that I’ve been such a supporter of gun rights in this country has been the mistaken belief on my part that our country is heading towards Corporate Feudalism and perhaps gun ownership would give us a chance to fend it off. The mistake wasn’t in the fact we are heading towards Corporate Feudalism, but in the not realizing that many of those with guns, as represented by the venal and maniacal NRA, would be the revolutionary force most likely to destroy freedom and bring about repression. If I can re-think long held beliefs and pre-judgments at my age, maybe others would also have the ability to look into ans re-evaluate their own thinking on the matter.

    Oh….and yes. This entire comment was written completely as an outpouring of sadness and rage and I’m proud of it.

  5. Cross-posting a NYTimes column excerpt from Mayan thread:

    idealist7071, December 17, 2012 at 9:20 am


    I don’t know what you are thinking of, but for me it is Newtown, Conn., aka Ourtown, USA.
    From the NYTimes Opinionator column:

    “That incident brought home to me what I have always suspected, but found difficult to articulate: an armed society — especially as we prosecute it at the moment in this country — is the opposite of a civil society.

    The Newtown shootings occurred at a peculiar time in gun rights history in this nation. On one hand, since the mid 1970s, fewer households each year on average have had a gun. Gun control advocates should be cheered by that news, but it is eclipsed by a flurry of contrary developments. As has been well publicized, gun sales have steadily risen over the past few years, and spiked with each of Obama’s election victories.

    Furthermore, of the weapons that proliferate amongst the armed public, an increasing number are high caliber weapons (the weapon of choice in the goriest shootings in recent years). Then there is the legal landscape, which looks bleak for the gun control crowd.

    Every state except for Illinois has a law allowing the carrying of concealed weapons — and just last week, a federal court struck down Illinois’ ban. States are now lining up to allow guns on college campuses. In September, Colorado joined four other states in such a move, and statehouses across the country are preparing similar legislation. And of course, there was Oklahoma’s ominous Open Carry Law approved by voters this election day — the fifteenth of its kind, in fact — which, as the name suggests, allows those with a special permit to carry weapons in the open, with a holster on their hip.

    Individual gun ownership — and gun violence — has long been a distinctive feature of American society, setting us apart from the other industrialized democracies of the world. Recent legislative developments, however, are progressively bringing guns out of the private domain, with the ultimate aim of enshrining them in public life. Indeed, the N.R.A. strives for a day when the open carry of powerful weapons might be normal, a fixture even, of any visit to the coffee shop or grocery store — or classroom………….

    I have no solution. Does any of us?
    Gun control? People control (yearly psych exam)? The psych sick are those who do the massacres, but the individual killings seem all of us capable of doing.

    Do we cliing to our guns for use in a standoff with the Feds?, the personal OK Corral?, the power we get in an otherwise powerless environment?—-where our politics are bought, and we are part ot the deal?. Do we change our self-image to become those who abhor violence, and turn our guns in?
    Do we teach our kids to love and not karate?

  6. I apologize for the misspellings and missing “N’s” in my comment above. It was written with the immediacy of anger and posted without spell checking. Filling in the missing blanks should be an easy task.

  7. Gene,

    If you can think that both sides have unhinged contingents. Just the one side has more weapons. Anything, I mean anything used improperly or immorally is bad.

  8. Thanks for the post prof. I too, agree, that the focus on the gun laws is, for the most part, misplaced with one exception – guns that shoot bullets at a high rate, or are capable thereof, should not be made available to the general public. While this will most likely not deter similar tragedies from happening entirely, it may very well reduce the severity, or at the least, make it more difficult.

    I think the overall media’s reaction and handling of this tragedy is disgusting and despicable.

  9. Let me give a paraphrase of more from the column cited above. Why? Because it supports a thought that Mikes is in on.

    We are suckers being led by ALEC and NRA into a gun-toting society. This movement, accdg to column writer, will ONLY give weight to more calls for suppression with a view of domestic (ie USA) mass violence.
    Running on toes of fear or strutting with the macho creed echoing, we hasten to letting “them” take over, with gun massacres as a reason.

    It also, quite simply, guarantees that no one opens his/her/their mouths, when a shot can be the reply, under the protection of SYG laws. etc.
    So where did free speech disappear to?

  10. Good point rcampbell; there is a Constitutional amendment allowing abortion, but we see all sorts of laws and restrictions being put in place in every red state in the land.

    Some to the point of no access to abortion at all- Mississippi could close the only clinic left because of these laws.

  11. This:

    “Obviously, the conservatives have set the precedent that one may have a right, but severely resticting one’s ability to exercise that right is perfectly okay. ”


  12. “By the way, those terrorists we read about daily do a lot of praying. It does not seem to have the same impact on them.”

    The prayer-in-schools advocates would probably claim it’s because they’re praying to the wrong God.

  13. With apologies to Professor Turley, saying that more guns will reduce gun violence is like saying that having more lawyers will reduce lawsuits.

  14. from the Rude Pundit:

    Guns and Minds:
    I’ve had a gun pointed in my face by a mugger on a dark New Orleans street. I have pointed a gun at an intruder in my apartment in a crime-filled neighborhood. Had he come closer instead of running, I believe that I would have shot him. I have had another apartment in a clean, nice neighborhood strafed with automatic weapon fire when one gang member was pursuing another down my street. I pulled the bullets out of the stoop and the door. I have had to duck behind a garbage can at my college campus when a man who robbed the bursar’s office was in a shootout with police. I have had a loaded gun pointed jokingly at my heart. I was on a street in Chicago when a young man ran by and a car chased him. The car stopped right next to me and a hand holding an AK47 (I think) came out of the sun roof and pointed at me before driving on. I have been target shooting with handguns at ranges multiple times in my life. I have been hunting with rifles that fire buckshot and rifles that fire bullets. I have not done either of those things in years. Growing up in Louisiana, I hung out with friends at their houses where sometimes one of them would ask, “Wanna go shoot some stuff?” and so we’d line up cans and bottles and shoot stuff. We were not using BB guns. I have never fired a semi-automatic rifle, although I have been with people while they were firing them. I have known people who died by gunshot. I know people who saved their own lives by shooting others who were attacking them. I do not come to this discussion naively. I do not come to it clean. I come to it honestly, with almost the entire spectrum of experiences one can have with guns, a spectrum wider than most of the people who believe that the ubiquity of firearms is our only defense against firearms. I have never been shot. I hope I die without that experience.

    We need to dwell on horror, on the horror that those children faced in Newtown, Connecticut. We need to imagine how their 6 and 7 year-old minds processed what was happening. We need to individuate them: how many were exposed to enough violence in our culture, through movies, through TV, through online videos, through video games, and, yes, through their own lives to comprehend that they were going to die? How many were kept from that awful knowledge of the evil that exists in world so that they couldn’t process the shots, the noise, their classmates bleeding and falling around them before they were hit? It’s terrible and it hurts, Christ, it hurts to write this. But you need to know it. You need to know that Adam Lanza walked into one classroom and killed everyone in it, 14 children and 2 teachers. He could do that because he had 30-round magazines. He didn’t even have to reload. One man. Everyone in the room. Imagine that. Imagine that.

    Before they move on to the level of abstraction and statistic, the children and the adults who died at Sandy Hook Elementary School need to be remembered for their lives, most certainly. But they need to be remembered for the nightmare of their end, vividly, to where it’s an ache that can’t be soothed, can’t be talked away, so that whenever it’s mentioned, we all have a kind of trauma, a PTSD that must be treated. We know how. But we refuse out of some sense of misbegotten pride and willful ignorance.

    There are many things that must be confronted, that should have been confronted long ago. While I don’t agree with everything here, Chuck Todd et al wrote today about the possibility of getting greater gun control through Congress, “[T]he president is going to have to tackle every issue associated with these heinous crimes: gun laws, our gun culture, mental health, the desensitization of violence thanks to Hollywood and video game makers, and of course parental responsibility. If it’s a larger policy discussion, it’s much harder for the most ardent NRA-supporting lawmaker to walk away.” I would argue with the violence in Hollywood and in video games part since whenever we start to walk down this road, we turn those into easy scapegoats rather than blame a broken mental health system and a paucity of limitations on gun ownership.

    And as far as cultural influences, I would say that a nation that sanctions capital punishment, use of extreme force by the police in many situations that don’t call for it, and the murder of people overseas by drones is a nation that has stated, in a quite official way, that violence is the answer to one’s problems. I would say that as far as unintended effects go, those things have done more damage to the American psyche than all the versions of Grand Theft Auto we could play.

    The first descriptions of Lanza have talked about his mental illness, but they have also talked about the video games that he played. You could lock yourself in a room and get into Resident Evil 6 until your hands were bloody from pushing buttons. Let’s say it warps your brain in some way that it wasn’t warped before. It’s not likely, but let’s say it made you bloodthirsty for real, not zombie or creature, blood. If you don’t have access to guns and large magazines, you are not going to do what Lanza did. It’s that simple. No, really, it’s that simple. Bottom line. Ask any cop, any member of the military, any responsible gun owner. Secure the weapons. Always secure the weapons.

    We’ll talk more about this (and more rudely) this week. Today, mourning. Tomorrow, solutions.

    When I had that gun pointed in my face all those years ago, I didn’t think, “Damn, I wish I had a gun, too.” I didn’t think, “Damn, I wish someone else with a gun would come along and save me.” I thought, “Damn, I wish he didn’t have a gun.”

    As have many children and adults alike.

  15. Mike,
    You remain eloquent in your sadness and rage.

    We should all remain enraged by the violent mind-set of our society.

    It’s unbelievable that we need to argue about whether civilians should possess weapons of mass murder.
    It’s a no-brainer, but our insanity blinds us. Hence the calls for more guns to counteract gun violence.

  16. And I still think that the “well-regulated militia” part of the Second Amendment actually means something, and ought not to be dismissed as irrelevant, as our SC has done. As far as I’m concerned, if you want to have a firearm, you need to be in the militia, i.e., the National Guard.

  17. @ JusticeHolmes, I’m not sure what your game plan is by continually denying that this is a Constitutional right to bear arms outside the context of a well regulated militia. I get saying the Supreme Court got it wrong and should reverse itself or that the Constitution should be amended or even if there’s a right, that doesn’t preclude reasonable restrictions. But, it’s a fact that the Court found there was an individual right under the Second Amendment. Ignoring that fact won’t do gun control advocates any good.

  18. ” From the article: “Nevertheless, I would prefer to discuss expanded mental health programs over assault weapons in schools as a starting point of any reforms.”

    Can we please stop pretending that we have to choose one position over the other. WE NEED BOTH APPROACHES:

    1. Ban assault weapons AND
    2. Improved mental health services.

  19. Juris – small quibble with your stating ” I agree that the focus on the gun laws is, for the most part, misplaced ” . That’s not what the Professor said. He said:

    “I would prefer to discuss expanded mental health programs over assault weapons in schools as a starting point of any reforms”

    I agree with the assessment that the media hasn’t acquitted itself well, as I said on another thread. That comment was made in response to someone alleging that commenters here are insensitive to the US government killing many little children with drones. The media does not seem particularly moved by that. Of course the government is positively in denial.

  20. “Lanza’s mother decided to keep him at home and tried to deal with his instability on her own.”

    Yes– by giving him shooting lessons and access to half a dozen guns and a thousand rounds of ammo.

    Sadly, you can’t legislate away stupidity.

  21. As we’ve discussed here, firearms are as American as apple pie. In fact, the citizen’s right to keep and bear arms goes back to the 10th Century at least among the English speaking peoples.


    Some would say the Kentucky Flintlock Long Rifle gained our freedom and the Springfield Rifled Musket preserved it. Guns are not going to be outlawed nor should they since they serve the vital role of self-protection. Controls on assault weapons, ammunition, and magazine capacity seem reasonable along with federal registration and education requirements. We do as much for cars, after all.

    As Gene H said on another thread, we need to resist the desire to emotionalize every tragedy with cries of “We must do something” while still smarting from the searing heat of the moment. Rights get lost that way. 9/11 proved that point.

    Something we will do … but with cooler heads.

  22. The politician who says that all would be well if the Principal had an automatic weapon is not looking at the picture here. A Teacher had these automatic weapons at home and kiddo stole them, killed his mommy teacher and went to school and got his revenge for bad grades back when he was in grade school. Arming teachers and principals might be a good measure but dont let them take the guns home with them. Sonny Boy might turn out to be SonnyBoy Floyd.

  23. a wee telling factoid;

    If Ammunition were as well regulated as Sudafed:

    Registry I.D. required after proof of
    Legal limit of sales
    All sales entered into single database
    All sales over legal age limit blocked
    Police investigate when breaches found
    Non-Medical Use of Marijuana, Mich:
    Possession of Marijuana, Under Michigan drug laws, Possession of Marijuana in any amount has a maximum penalty of up to 1 year in prison and $2,000 in fines.

    Regulation for Medical marijuana (Michigan):
    $100.00 fee
    Doctors prescription
    Legal limit of amount in possession
    ID w/picture after photographic identification of both the qualifying patient and the patient’s primary caregiverapproved.
    Any person who has been convicted of a felony involving illegal drugs shall not serve as a qualifying patient’s primary caregiver under the act.

    Regulations for Driving a car [Mich]:

    At 14 years, 8 months a student can enroll in Segment 1 of a driver education program at an approved school
    such as Top Driver.
    n Segment 1 driver education includes:
    p 24 hours of classroom instruction.
    p 6 hours of private behind-the-wheel instruction.
    p 4 hours behind-the-wheel observation.
    p Scoring at least 70% on a written state test administered by an approved driver education school
    such as Top Driver.
    n The student will receive a Green Segment 1 Certificate of Completion after successfully completing the course.
    To receive a Level 1 License, a student must be 14 years, 9 months and obtain a Level 1 License application.
    n To obtain a Level 1 License application bring all of the following to a branch office of the Secretary of State:
    p Green Segment 1 Certificate of Completion.
    p Certified copy of a birth certificate (not a hospital certificate).
    p A completed Level 1 License application signed by a parent or guardian.
    p A letter granting permission signed by a parent or guardian.
    p A Social Security card.
    p Student must also pass a vision test and meet minimum physical and mental standards.
    n A student may only drive with a licensed parent/guardian or a designated adult 21 years of age or older.
    n Parent/guardian/designated adult must sit in the front seat.
    n If driving with a designated adult, the student should carry a signed letter of authorization from parent/guardian.
    n There is no fee for a Level 1 License.
    n We recommend obtaining a Road Skills Test Study Guide at the Secretary of State office.

  24. “No question, guns have a deeper hold on the American psyche than in most other parts of the developed world. But gun politics are not as static as we often make them out to be. Heck, as Jill Lepore documented not so long ago, the NRA wasn’t even unflinchingly anti–gun control until the final decades of the 20th century. And as my colleague Nate Cohn has noted, there was the hint of a post-election shift underway on this issue even before the Newtown massacre. Simply put, the Democratic coalition is much less reliant than it was even a decade ago on voters who prioritize gun rights. At the presidential level, the party no longer even competes in states such as West Virginia, Tennessee, and Arkansas, and it has shown that it can win states such as Ohio and Virginia despite very poor showings in their more conservative, rural precincts. The picture is of course murkier downballot—the party’s Senate majority relies on members from rural states such as Montana and North Dakota where resistance to gun control runs higher. But even there, the landscape may already be shifting. West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin, who has an A rating from the NRA and famously fired a rifle at cap-and-trade legislation to signal his independence from the national Democratic agenda, said this morning that he would be willing to reconsider measures like the assault-weapons ban.” TNR blog

  25. Jay S., At least from a historical point of view, such as when the 2nd amendment was written, the militia and what was then the equivilent of the National Guard, State Line Regiments, were two separate entities. I believe the militia code is still in effect “every able-bodied man from 16 to 60.” In the early 1980s Virginia established a volunteer militia to serve when the Guard was deployed elsewhere. This appeared to maintain the separation.

  26. mespo,

    Somewhere on an earlier thread I had mentioned that you had promised said article and not followed through. I had forgotten about your contribution and apologize for that slip.

    I wondered where that bookmark in my Second Amend folder for the Assize of Arms link had come from. Now I remember

  27. ‘Buy, sell or give away .50 caliber armor-piercing bullets in Connecticut and you could spend a year in state prison. But using the Internet to pick up a few thousand rounds of 9 mm ammo for your Glock, no problem dude.

    “Neither state nor federal law prohibits online ammunition sales or purchases,” is the conclusion of a new report by the Connecticut Office of Legislative Research.’,0,2246759.story

    ‘There is a bill now before Congress that would effectively ban online sale of ammunition —….
    James Holmes, the guy charged with shooting to death 12 people and wounding 58 others, reportedly bought more than 6,000 rounds of ammunition in the weeks leading up to the slaughter.’

    ‘The chances of that anti-Internet-ammo bill passing Congress are close to zero, according to most observers, thanks to the astonishing influence of the National Rifle Association and Republican control of the U.S. House.’

  28. Messpo727272, says:

    “Something we will do … but with cooler heads.”

    Is this the same person who defended drone attacks?

    Do we in fact have any stats on where the people stand on this?

    Let us not forget these victims, who will quickly be smokescreened away by the ALEC and NRA groups, with liberal payments to congressmen/women supporting them.

    How long do you suggest waiting until heads have cooled?

    And how should the process go forward?

    Appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

  29. Here are HuffPost stats on opinions in both gun-owner and the general population of gun control.

    “90% of Americans support fixing gaps in government databases meant to prevent the mentally ill, drug abusers and others from buying guns. Americans also want to see better background checks for gun purchases, no matter how they’re described. More than eight in ten (86% of Americans, 81% of gun households) support background checks for all gun sales, regardless of seller or venue.”

  30. Gene H:

    You know I think it was Victor Hugo who said words to the effect that it is “better that a few throats be slit on the Champs-Élysées than a [French Police Detective] Vidocq on every corner.”

    Crass but it makes the point.

  31. And if you want to support freedom of the press and support leaking of the truth, try this:

    “Today, I join with a group of colleagues and friends to announce The Freedom of the Press Foundation.

    This new foundation crowd-sources funding for a number of tireless, courageous and underfunded freedom of press organizations, including WikiLeaks.

    This is the first time that citizens can offer their financial support to WikiLeaks, since donation processing for the organization was shut down by extra-judicial government pressure on Bank of America, MasterCard, Visa, PayPal, and Amazon in 2010.

    They’re not going to stop us this time.

    Please tell the US government what you think of its attempted financial embargo of Wikileaks, by making a donation to the Freedom of Press Foundation today. You can choose how much of your money you’d like to go to WikiLeaks.

    Thank you,

    Daniel Ellsberg

    Here are related links:

    Our Huffington Post op-ed announcing the new initiative

    New York Times blog post about the Foundation

    Glenn Greenwald’s Guardian op-ed about the Foundation
    end email from Ellsberg.

  32. idealist, You have to make your move when public opinion is moving your way. ” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says Congress needs to do something about gun violence because “we are not doing enough to protect our citizens.”

    And what does the National Rifle Association have to say about that? Well, nothing today. But three years ago, Wayne LaPierre, the head of the NRA called Reid a “true champion” for gun rights:

    “He is a true champion of the Second Amendment,” LaPierre said of Reid.

    With NRA member Joe Manchin also coming out for gun control in the wake of the Sandy Hook shooting, a trend is starting to develop. ” Daily Kos

  33. SwM,

    Thank you for your acknowledgement that I exist. What Blouise and Messpo think of me is clear. But they won’t get silence for that reason.

    Now emerging are stuff from back to the 1920’s, Reagan’s ideas, etc supporting gun controi. Now stats say the people want it with 80 percent plus supporting it.

    Popular support is there. Now is the time. “If not now, when.”

    Will we allow the Kochs and the Dissentionists to continue to rule over us?
    Dissentionists: my name for the Republican party.

    This is an excellent opportunity to take a step in re-taking our control of this nation.

  34. sm:

    Even the new poll taken in the wake of the tragedy doesn’t show support from a majority of citizens for gun controls.

  35. “According to the survey, conducted Friday through Sunday, 44% now strongly support stricter gun laws, with 32% opposed. That’s the first time in ABC/Washington Post polling in five years where significantly more people favor rather than opposed stricter gun control measure. And for the first time in surveys dating back to 2000, less than 50% say the best way to reduce gun violence is to enforce existing laws. The number of people saying the best way is to pass new laws edging up to 32%, the highest level since 2000 in ABC/Washington Post polling.” mespo, not a majority for yet but certainly not a majority against, either.

  36. Mike –

    Would agree on most items, although I see some differences, where tweaking might resolve them.

    1. Guns on Campus – When you discuss campuses, are you talking about K-12 or colleges? There are a lot of students who are retirees, veterans, mature enough to carry, and if concealed, no one would be the wiser. Also, my work takes me on and off several campuses, as my case load dictates. While I may not carry a concealed sidearm (as I’m licensed to do), there are legal issues, even keeping it locked inside my vehicle.

    2. Immediate Firearms Purchases – There should be a difference, and possible exceptions between initial and additional firearms purchases, or trading in one for another. Of course, this sword can cut both ways. While having one firearm should qualify an individual to purchase others without waiting, an argument can be made that, since an individual already has one, what’s the hurry for an additional weapon?

    3. No Borders to Firearm Movement – In the time it takes to get across Texas, an individual can travel from Boston, MA to Myrtle Beach, SC. Ten States. An individual’s purpose for traveling, or traveling in and of itself, creates inherent risks, such as a lack of familiarity with specific dangers in specific geographic areas.

    4. Since guns are one of the few commodities covered by Federal legislation, it would stand to reason that a national-level system of training, licensing (though without national registration of licensees) might be required. Drug laws are standardized (though enforced differently). Why not for firearms?

    As an owner of several weapons, I have no objection to paying a minimal tax, say, $5/weapon, $30 limit, for all semi-auto pistols, revolvers and long-guns, more for semi-auto weapons, to be used for gun safety and MH programs.

    “Right winger” (if I must be categorized) that I am, I also advocate an increase in sentence enhancements for firearms used in crimes. Maybe not as draconian as California’s but somewhere between “making a point,” and “What the hell, if I’m going away for life, might as well not leave any witnesses.”

    Finally, I would disagree as to your “rate of fire” argument, though I’m not sure if it was a blanket statement or not. I’m not in support of unloading a 30-round clip on Bambi or Thumper, but in winged-hunting scenarios, it might take two, or, heaven forbid, three shots at a moving target. If it takes any more, I might suggest a round of skeet.

    Just throwing these out as suggestions, or items for further discussion. Now back to my self- imposed sabbatical on gun issues, in lieu of mental health ones.

    Mike – What I do completely agree with is, your sadness and rage at the events that have unfolded. I would really hate to argue with you in a more “cogent and concise” state of mind.

    While “… an armed society — especially as we prosecute it at the moment in this country — is the opposite of a civil society.” I’d respond with a quote from writer Robert Heinlein: “An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”

  37. Messpo,

    I suggest study of this Huffpost article. Unusually wide different poll coverage. And ranging back for some years in time.

    The quote I based my post on had expanded the view on gun checks before sales. On that point the figure is in fact 80 percent plus favorable, including gun owners.

    I’ll leave it up to you or others to come back after trudging through the polls linked here.

    Now is the time to join other industrialized nations in gun control, single-payer medical systems, and cleaner justice systems.

  38. Magazines that fed bullets into the primary firearm used to kill 26 children and adults at a Connecticut school would have been banned under state legislation that the National Rifle Association and gunmakers successfully fought.

    The shooter at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Adam Lanza, 20, used a Bushmaster AR-15 rifle with magazines containing 30 rounds as his main weapon, said Connecticut State Police Lieutenant Paul Vance at a news conference today.

    A proposal in March 2011 would have made it a felony to possess magazines with more than 10 bullets and required owners to surrender them to law enforcement or remove them from the state. Opponents sent more than 30,000 e-mails and letters to state lawmakers as part of a campaign organized by the NRA and other gun advocates, said Robert Crook, head of the Hartford- based Coalition of Connecticut Sportsmen, which opposed the legislation.

    “The legislators got swamped by NRA emails,” said Betty Gallo, who lobbied on behalf of the legislation for Southport- based Connecticut Against Gun Violence. “They were scared of the NRA and the political backlash.”

    Proponents abandoned the legislation, which drew opposition from gunmakers including Sturm, Ruger & Co. (RGR) In addition to the e-mails and letters, more than 300 pro-gun activists, including many NRA members, attended a committee hearing to oppose it, said Gallo, a Hartford-based lobbyist for more than 35 years.

    […] Both sides in the debate disputed the role of high-capacity magazines in the Dec. 14 school shooting.
    Crook said state legislation “wouldn’t have made a difference.”

    “We already have a lot of good gun laws on the books,” Crook said. “You can’t control people who have never done anything wrong before and then just go off the deep end.”

    U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal, a Connecticut Democrat, said in an interview that high-capacity magazines “made the crime all the more deadly” and called for limits.

    The media office of the NRA didn’t respond to e-mails seeking comment about the shooting or the law, or return phone messages left with an answering service.

  39. Mespo said “As Gene H said on another thread, we need to resist the desire to emotionalize every tragedy with cries of “We must do something” while still smarting from the searing heat of the moment. Rights get lost that way. 9/11 proved that point.”

    Seems like we all need to be oh so cautious about threading on the little twinkies of the RW wackos, gun fetishists and militiamen. They, as we we
    all know are duly steeped in the finer points of Constitutional jurisprudence.

    That’s all a bit tongue in cheek of course, but I would wonder exactly when is the switch flipped that indicates the searing heat of the moment has passed and we can enter cool and calm deliberations — with the certain cooperation of said right wing wackos, gun fetishists and militiamen (who, btw, would never fearmonger or appeal to emotion themselves) And what level of repeat gun violence vitiates the ‘all clear’ presaging calm and cool deliberations and, as it were, starts the ‘no discussion’ waiting period running again? Please, this is a construct without meaningful measurement. Using the Patriot Act as a negative exemplar — maybe shaming all those progressives who were rolled by that one — is a pretty low device. Neuter advocacy that has merit because of a totally inapposite example save for the putative element of emotionalism. Low.

    Finally, I’m not willing to subscribe to the purist jurist view that “the law”, in it’s many forms from formulation to appellate review is really immune from emotion. Regardless of what smarmy arrogant jurists like Scalia would seek to lecture us. Maybe it’s a nice ideal, but to have the accusation of emotionalism used as a cudgel to dodge this issue time and again doesn’t convince.

  40. 20% of Americans own 65% of all the guns in America. Think about that for a while. We are not dealing with rational, healthy individuals here. there is no reason to expect them to behave in a rational manner.

  41. As for the presence of the Great Hairy Thunderer
    He was with Moses in the desert for 40 years
    He was with Noah on the Ark
    He was with Daniel in the lions den
    He was with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace
    He was with Jesus on the cross

    But a 1962 USSC decision that schools can not force you to pray and teachers can not lead a prayer is all it takes to defeat Him.

    What a wimp you must think this Cosmic muffin is! What a pathetically weak and useless deity you must assume you follow.

    My God is much stronger than that – I shall pray to him now and you, the US Supreme Court and all your armys may try to stop me from praying – go on. Try to stop me!

  42. JunctionShamus,

    If no one had a gun, then no one would die of gunshot wounds. I said that.

    And if you have no gun on you, how polite is enough when the other guy is a robber, or whatever. So everybody needs a gun in Heinlein’s society.

    I’ve been threatened with a revolver wielded by a front desk clerk at a shabby NYC hotel. I didn’t leave with the thought that “Jeez, wish I had a gun, then he’d have to duck for me.”

    Remember “McCabe and Mrs Miller”. The opening shootout, and the closing one? Is that where we are headed if you had your way?

    With all due respect for your right to say your opinions.

  43. mespo (sorry to seem to be focusing ;-) ) says “Even the new poll taken in the wake of the tragedy doesn’t show support from a majority of citizens for gun controls.:

    Chalk another one up to government by by propaganda and frenzy. Could this possibly be a broad brush correlation to the general mistrust of government action. I’d say likely.

    But why so selective to simply look at polls when none other that the estimable Edmund Burke, flogging his constituitive theory of representation said, essentially, that reps were constituted and ought to have the courage to do what is right for the common good even when it may seem to diverge from the popular will.

    I don’t know why I even bother engaging this argument anymore. Under the cover of protecting the sanctity of the Constitution there is this putrid wave of BS essentially covering up for a sleazy underground of gun merchants and a sleazy bunch of sunshine patriots.

    disclaimer – no inferences regarding anyone here, save maybe one or two special cases ;-)

  44. DonS, thank you for the correction in my prior post as I misread and misinterpreted what the prof said. However, I do think the prof hinted that looking at stronger gun control may be misplaced in stating that “it is not clear that much would have changed in this case” with gun controls and in preferring to discuss mental program reform above gun control reform.

    The reform of either as a possible solution are not mutually exclusive.

    My bad.

  45. DonS is right on the money.

    War, violence and the thrills of all that has been sold to us, from when we were kids. And now to our grandchildren too.

    When are we going to realize that we are manipulated. And it is NOT the measly gun sales that drives the violence parade. It is the MIC, etc.
    I do suspect gun owners though. Try forest running instead, much healthier.

    Only the mentally disturbed and alcoholic drunks strike anyone in Sweden. And Sweden once dominated northern Europe. So it is not the genes being the answer to the pacific frame of mind here.

  46. DonS,

    “Seems like we all need to be oh so cautious about threading on the little twinkies of the RW wackos, gun fetishists and militiamen. They, as we we
    all know are duly steeped in the finer points of Constitutional jurisprudence.”

    No. We need to be careful, calm, rational and exercise forethought in restricting basic rights and/or amending the Constitution. Such actions are the legal and societal equivalent of brain surgery: risks and costs must be weighed objectively against benefits and any “fix” needs to be as minimally invasive as possible and designed to limit ancillary damage and unintended consequence.

    “I would wonder exactly when is the switch flipped that indicates the searing heat of the moment has passed and we can enter cool and calm deliberations — with the certain cooperation of said right wing wackos, gun fetishists and militiamen (who, btw, would never fearmonger or appeal to emotion themselves)”

    When neither extreme polarity has sufficient traction to distract emotionally or otherwise from rational productive analysis and problem solving.

    “And what level of repeat gun violence vitiates the ‘all clear’ presaging calm and cool deliberations and, as it were, starts the ‘no discussion’ waiting period running again?”

    None. The time for calm reasoned discussion and analysis is always now. The inability of the extremists to engage in such without time to cool their respective jets is a problem with them that hinders immediate discussion and has nothing to do with the conversation itself. It’s a limitation in human nature. But the time is always now for calm reasoned discussion and analysis. Panic and emotionalism no matter the derivation don’t solve problems but rather tend to complicate or exacerbate them.

    “Using the Patriot Act as a negative exemplar — maybe shaming all those progressives who were rolled by that one — is a pretty low device.”

    Actually it’s an accurately correlated warning about rushing into solutions without reasoned calm deliberation. Abridging rights under the driving force of fear is what brought us the Patriot Act. Should we make the same mistake twice?

    “Finally, I’m not willing to subscribe to the purist jurist view that “the law”, in it’s many forms from formulation to appellate review is really immune from emotion.”

    You misunderstand the problem. Law isn’t immune to emotion. Emotion, however, is inherently irrational and irrational results in law are undesirable as a matter of proper construction.

    “Maybe it’s a nice ideal, but to have the accusation of emotionalism used as a cudgel to dodge this issue time and again doesn’t convince.”

    Only the extremists are trying to dodge the issue. But emotionalism no matter the source or the context of the argument does not lead to good analysis or decision making as a matter of pure logic and basic psychology. Emotionalism – in this case from both the “We’ve got to do something!” and the “You can’t change gun laws at all!” contingents – would lead to bad analysis and decisions simply because it is based in an emotional and therefore inherently irrational stance. An appeal for calm from the reasoned mind is directed at both poles in this argument.

    Calm down, peoples.

    Look and think before either “side” leaps.

  47. Juris, Re-reading, your surmise might as you say hint in the direction of gun controls being “misplaced”, but put in context I read it more as a lament that they might be (equally) ineffective as MH law changes — one thing to put laws and procedures in place, another to have them adequately function. (Certainly with the arsenals already in the hands of the public it’s an uphill battle to find a way to be effective).

    In any case, reading the Professor’s into, in combination with his comment on mespo’s 12/15 thread that “No citizen should be allowed to own such weapons – we do need to further define the 2nd amendment once and for all.” I perhaps got the impression that informed what I said, i.e., that we need to try to do better, and maybe the status quo when it comes to the second amendment scare tactics used by many to thwart effect gun control is not acceptable. Maybe JT will spell it out down the road.

  48. What the NRA, gun lobby, and gun advocates want us to do is to shut up until everybody has cooled off and gone back to thinking about other things–so nothing will be done to change anything…as has happened in the past after mass shootings in this country.

    It seems as if the mass murder of innocents may soon become as American as apple pie too.

  49. GeneH.

    With all due respect, I understand your position to be one which we have heard from wise heads since the 1920s. I think we are tired of this rational “out” being used.

    We all know except for a few here, that we have handed over our society to the commercial forces a long time ago. When does that stop? Logic does not effect the lawmakers, money does. And we know who is paying for the gun lobby. And it is not the people who tried to ban 30 shot magazines in Connecticut. They did not have the money to do that.

    I agree that seizing the emotions of tragedy is not a proper solution.
    But this matter has been studied for decades by calm heads, and now the people say the time is now, if the polls are to be trusted.

    Federal regulations which will be opposed, just as voter registration is opposed, just as civil rights violations by our federal executive branch (AG) opposes its sworn duty to protect and defend the big C,

    You make magnificent appeals to logic. But I don’t recall you coming with solutions to our societal ills. How would you, in view of years of study, propose going forward?

  50. “When neither extreme polarity has sufficient traction to distract emotionally or otherwise from rational productive analysis and problem solving.”

    Rational productive analysis and problem solving ain’t likely to happen in our Congress!

  51. Whew, Gene, I feel all deconstructed ;-)

    As with any long term issue, the parameters of which don’t change too much of time, there are more than enough, suggestions, proposals, studies, draft laws and model codes for gun control efforts just waiting in the wings — and forged in the long, boring, calm, cool, deliberative process of preparing for a much needed eventuality that never seems to get here.

  52. ElaineM,


    It started with the native americans, continues with drone attacks in Pakaf, and now we are nosing at Syria/Iran to keep the MIC fed.

    Those that support guns from the “top” would call the kids in Newtown collateral damage.

    There is a time for logic. That is now, but we should not let our heat steam away, unused.

  53. Frankly 1, December 17, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    20% of Americans own 65% of all the guns in America. Think about that for a while. We are not dealing with rational, healthy individuals here. there is no reason to expect them to behave in a rational manner.
    In that light:

    A decreasing number of American gun owners own two-thirds of the nation’s guns and as many as one-third of the guns on the planet — even though they account for less than 1% of the world’s population, according to a CNN analysis of gun ownership data.


  54. ElaineM has it right, expecting anything from Congress is hopeless.
    Didn’t someone here call for total recall?

    As for a bylined BS full article from the fiscal debate holders are apparently feeling upstaged by Newtown.

    ““Members of Congress, when you get down to it, are just people,” said Mickey Edwards, a former House Republican leader. “There are those things that, at least momentarily, trump ideology.”

    “I think, at least for a while, it’s going to soften people’s hearts to each other and make people think, we’re a team, we’re all Americans,” said Mr. Edwards, whose new book is called “The Parties Versus the People.” “The greatest problem is that neither side trusts the other side. And that being the case, this could help.” …………etc.

    The gun lobby still rules. As do the laws limiting opinions, substantive support (words only) to unnamed terrorist organizations, and the feds keeping track of everybody even where no suspicion exists.

    Great place to raise kids. Great scenery and monuments over fallen heroes.

    Gone for the day. Soon midnight.

  55. “a wee telling factoid;
    If Ammunition were as well regulated as Sudafed:”

    But Woosty all those things Americans can live without…..we’re talking essentials here……firepower and more of it.

  56. ” An affluent resident of an upper middle class town, Lanza had exactly the kind of resources that you would want for taking care of a kid with these kinds of problems. His parents had all the money he needed to get him help, and his school did everything they could to help him cope, according to the Wall Stret Journal: “Not long into his freshman year, Adam Lanza caught the attention of Newtown High School staff members, who assigned him a high-school psychologist, while teachers, counselors and security officers helped monitor the skinny, socially awkward teen, according to a former school official.” Daily Beast

  57. The choice to abandon reason is indeed a choice, DonS. It is a bad choice for decision making, but it is a choice. I see you seem willing to make the same bad choice twice.

    However, abandoning reason is also the path to disaster in governance.


    “Logic does not effect the lawmakers, money does.”

    Only when we allow it to as a society, id707.

    As to your snarky closing? I’ve proposed many times that the ills of our society can be best addressed if we implemented campaign finance and lobby reform first. Followed by a Constitutional amendment forbidding corporations from participating in the legislative and electoral processes combined with legislatively restraining the ever expanding legal corporate personality to restore corporations to their former levels of limited legal personality.

    So why don’t you worry about coming up with your own solutions instead of worrying about mine.

  58. Gene, not sure which snark you’re referring to — I plead guilty to having a bit of that in me (if it’s the ‘deconstructed part’ that was admiring tongue in cheek, not intentional snark). Hmmm, maybe you were referring to id707.

    Anyway, I hadn’t thought I’d abandoned reason, much less twice! Can’t accept your reading, but you don’t accept mine either. Neither of us is surprised I expect.

  59. DonS,

    “Hmmm, maybe you were referring to id707.” – Correct.

    As to abandoning reason? The same mistake twice referred to the error of passing the Patriot Act without calm reasoned deliberation versus handling this situation with calm reasoned deliberation. You seem impatient. If I read that as abandoning reason when you have not? Mea culpa. However, in changing laws – especially those relating to fundamental rights – there is an adage in the realm of criminal defense that applies to the realm of legal construction as well. Justice delayed is justice. Or as my grandfather often said, “Measure twice, cut once.”

  60. GeneH,

    Don’t look for snarkineass, and you won’t find any. That was an honest observation. And opened for correction, as I said roughly that “as I recall” So your correction is noted, but must be evaluated as all answers must be.

    Your proposals on campaign finance and an amendment to stop corporate ínvolvment are nice, but hardly possible with the Congress we have.
    Those are goals, GeneH. Not ways to achieve them.

    My soiutions? I have proposed at least two. Both involve starting with empowering the people, ie teaching them how to organize and get honest congressmen.

    En masse we scare them, although they hold the keys to our company cars, and the mortgages on our houses, we are still voters. Those who wish to do so, of course.

    The “dissident party” holds the nation in gridlock condition. How long will we allow that?

    Saul Alinsky, where is your replacement? It was not Obama, as we hoped.

  61. id7070, I didn’t say you were, just that that’s what I thought Gene was saying which, it appears is accurate! Weren’t you going to bed? Can’t say I’m not envious of you bedding down in Sweden, though it probably get’s dark around, we’ll I don’t know, pretty damn early.

  62. GeneH,

    “However, in changing laws – especially those relating to fundamental rights – there is an adage in the realm of criminal defense that applies to the realm of legal construction as well. Justice delayed is justice. Or as my grandfather often said, “Measure twice, cut once.””

    I would be inclined to agree but I am not a surgeon, who must use the scalpel or let the patient die.

    I would not support a constituitional amendment, primarily because the constitution has not protected us from Patriot Acts and its acceptance by Congress only two hours after it was released for viewing.
    It has not protected us from Obama’s NDAA. It has not protected us from Sct decisions, such as in Gore vs G, Bush in Fla. Nor their institution of corporate rights equal to persons.

    I see the solution must come from the people, who have been fed skit and have given up their rights, for a meal of the pablum we get via cable.

    They grab us at birth and the process begins then. As many have proven-

    So, let’s not hurl accusations of snarkiness. We need civility, as you reminded me (a good lesson). So put your gun down, please.

  63. DonS,

    Thanks for the reminding me of the need of patient formulation over the need for brevity and speed. I should have said: ca “I note you don’t feel that I was snarky, and hope you will read my latest reply to GeneH.”

    The latter request applies again.

    I said that I was going to bed, but a reply from GeneH, requires answering now, because tomorrow no one will read my eventual reply to him.

    The charm of Sweden (one) is the summer time long days that last until midnight, and start at one AM. Now and until February it is black from 3 PM until 9 AM.

    And then no one gets shot here.

    But it is a very good blog here.

    Glad you are here.

    Now I AM going to bed!


  64. Oh, I have ways to achieve those goals, but I don’t think I’m interested in letting you further derail the conversation here, id707. However, my reply to you stands. Worry about your own solutions and I’ll worry about mine.

  65. Peace, indeed.

    (as a woodworker, as you doze off, I find myself measuring 3, 4, 5 times . . . that’s my discipline to counter impatience, at least in that area.)

  66. Gene,
    I am late to this discussion, but I agree with your grandfather to measure twice and it once. However, we have measured over 30 times since Columbine, so it is the right time to cut now.
    It s good to be home with wi-fi!

  67. We should certainly wait to eliminate guns designed for mass murder, until we’ve all become less emotional about it.
    By that time, there’ll be another mass slaughter to become emotional about.

    See a pattern here?

    I believe the original saying was “Justice delayed is justice denied.”
    Waiting will certainly deny justice to the next set of victims.
    There’s another saying, “Strike while the iron is hot.”

  68. Wonder why they have never had a mass shooting at a gun show, where you can find over a thousand loaded guns at one time.”

    You know why?


  69. If you were in the theater in Aurora Colorado at the time of the shooting would you rather have a gun to stop this nut from shooting more people or would you rather be trying to hide between the seats to keep from getting killed? your choice

  70. shano:

    the school was a gun free zone.

    the reason people dont shoot people at gun shows is because they have little chance of doing harm and a good chance of getting shot.

  71. Bruce:

    did you know there were 6 or 7 other theaters in the area which permitted concealed carry? That nut chose that theater for a reason.

  72. They dont shoot because GUN SHOWS demand there be ZERO bullets in the GUN. How could they shoot there with NO BULLETS.

    In fact, i am appalled, them trying to restrict my gun, my precious gun, from her bullets. They are just like babies to her, she carries them inside. she will lose her shine, her handle, her lazer may go dim if I cant have my bullets at the gun show. 2nd Amendment right!!! I demand now at every gun show in America! Bullets have rights too!!!!

  73. Bob K.,

    Have I been saying not to talk about it? To wait?


    I explicitly said the time for calm reasoned discussion and analysis is always now. And it’s always now no matter what the subject matter might be. Some quarters inability to maintain calm reasoned discussion – on both sides – is impeding making faster progress. I’ve been cautioning against rashness and emotionalism in analysis and decision making.

    Don’t confuse the two. They are not equivalent.

    The fact that some reasonable proposals are already being floated in Congress though is a good sign calm reasoned discussion might happen sooner rather than later. The “let’s not talk about it” tactic of the far right is not having the same effect as it has previously. That should be a step in the direction of soothing your impatience.

  74. No, it didn’t stop carjacking, Bruce,

    Do a google search on “florida carjackings 2012.”

    I’m glad no one else was packing heat in the Aurora theater. There would be even more people dead. That’s if the second shooter had the presence of mind to return fire.

    How did this genius shooter decide not to attack a “concealed carry theater,” when he was very likely to be killed by police, later? If he was worried about being shot, himself, he wouldn’t do the crime at all, right?

    “Concealed carry” as a deterrent to slaughter is a right-wing fantasy. The characters played by John Wayne were fictional. When guns go off, everyone freezes.

  75. raff,

    Glad you made it home safely.

    And if you reread what I’ve been saying, I haven’t once suggested the time to cut is not now. I’m just urging rational tool use to continue the metaphor. Safety first. Especially when cutting on rights and the Constitution.

  76. But Gene H, if we wait for a time when the violence cools down some so we can talk about these things, they’re just plain off the table. We’re not gonna become a less violent society any time soon, that’s my guess. In fact, as forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz has pointed out, the kind of coverage this mass shooting has received is just the kind of coverage that lays the groundwork for more of these kinds of incidents (May I be wrong about that).

  77. FWIW, I haven’t spoken to concealed carry.

    I think it was a bad idea from the get go. Open carry or leave the thing at home, in your car, etc. Concealed weapons are a recipe for trouble. The best way to avoid trouble is not to be there when it starts.

  78. Malisha,

    Has everyone lost the ability to read and understand English?

    I explicitly said the time for calm reasoned discussion and analysis is always now. And it’s always now no matter what the subject matter might be. Some quarters inability to maintain calm reasoned discussion – on both sides – is impeding making faster progress. I’ve been cautioning against rashness and emotionalism in analysis and decision making. By anyone.

  79. Speaking of interest groups, I’ve seen numerous “experts” on Aspergers Syndrome hitting the media outlets to state categorically that ASD is not associated with “planned violence.” While no one wants to unfairly scapegoat any group of afflicted persons, the public deserves to know the truth about this neural development disorder. A little research of my own seems to have revealed this as a doubtful proposition especially in view of the picture coming together about the shooter.

    Here’s the article JAAPLO:

  80. Gene: “Has everyone lost the ability to read and understand English?”

    If it walks like a duck . . .

    Seriously, perhaps your approach toward counseling “anti-emotionalism”, basically assuming the advocates of gun control here have gone over to the dark side, has masked what you describe as your true intention. I wouldn’t accuse you of projecting, but I certainly haven’t noticed absence of rationality here among gun control advocates. Meanwhile you have come down thumpingly hard along with those here who, in my view, have actually been irrationally shrill about 2nd amendment rights being abrogated. 2 + 2 = 4.

    Glad to hear you reinforce your wish for serious attention to this issue now. To me, and I see many others here, this is an issue that has been irrefutably begging for attention for years, and just as obviously ignored in the halls of power for the unsavory reasons we all know.

    I have no Idea how emotion can be kept out. I guess I see a difference between emotion an irrationality.

  81. DonS,

    “[P]erhaps your approach toward counseling ‘anti-emotionalism’, basically assuming the advocates of gun control here have gone over to the dark side, has masked what you describe as your true intention.”

    Or perhaps the advocates of gun control (which I am one in the form of reasonable restrictions) have missed that I’ve been warning of emotionalism from both sides of the argument and some people are simply hard of understanding that because in being emotional they think the warning is directed only at them.

    “I have no Idea how emotion can be kept out.”

    Detachment in analysis and argument is a skill. It can be learned. It is part of the skill set a good legal education imparts. A good science education too for that matter. For example, I’m madder than Hell that some lunatic killed a bunch of kids. I’m not, however, letting that interfere with my legal analysis of how to address the problem moving forward on prevention while maintaining the right in question.

    “I guess I see a difference between emotion an irrationality.”

    Reason is logic supported by evidence. Emotion is feeling and it requires neither logic nor evidence. One is a scientific process. The other is analogous to belief. One is the proper foundation for the construction of laws. The other leads to irrational laws. One produces forms of governance like democratic Constitutional Presidential republics. The other produces forms of governance like theocracy and cults of personality like dictatorships. One is a good basis for sound legal formulation and judgement. The other is the basis for burning witches and creating oppression.

    I’ll go with reason and objective detachment as a basis for law over emotion any day.

  82. mespo, you’re wading into some murky waters. It’s hard to find much agreement among clinicians on many disorders. Mostly information is going to be coded in terms of cohort groups, statistical significance, and generally going off into the weeds. Fact is, too, that those exhibiting diagnosable mental disorders seem to share a lot of traits with the rest of the population but only differ in degree. So, right off you get questions about degree of illness which can lead to questions about the existence of the illness at all. And on and on. Also, to my knowledge, “planned violence”: is not a discriminating behavior in the definition of DSM recognized disorders, so folks opining on the connection are to some extent free lancing. You could make or dispute the connection for many disorders.

  83. This kid had a plan. He carried it out. How long he planned it may be known if recovery on his computer is successful.
    1st kill Mom. 2nd drive to school kill any and all humans possible. 3rd when the cops show up, kill self.
    He was in control of this entire scenario the moment he held the gun and killed his mother.
    His twisted brain had created a twisted logic that he followed.

    I dare say in his mind he felt his actions justified. Twisted, terrible, insane to us, yet he did it. The human brain is the most creative grouping of cells in the universe. ( I hope not, but no advanced civilization has shown up yet to straighten us out) We are alone on earth with our incredible brains.
    Each of we humans have one, This makes us equal. How we use it makes us different. What inspires us, deludes us, pains us and addicts us, creates vasts differences. Greed, Power, Domination, Self aggrandizement, Fame.

    Our brains are the best and the worst things in our corner of the universe.
    All 7 billion of us are equal in this. I consider this a painfully sane statement.
    It is true. We humans deny it every day with most every action.

    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
    I submit every action that deviates from this path starts with a small twist of logic. Sometimes as some continue, our individual twists leaves equality behind. We all twist for survival, some twist real hard for Greed, Power, Domination, Self Aggrandizement, Fame.
    As Orwell said some Pigs are more equal.

    The shooters brain was twisted beyond my human experience comprehension. I believe we all twist logic to suit our needs. How much a sane person twists is a choice.

  84. Gene, in my wild youth I graduated law school and passed the bar. Amen.

    I’m glad I don’t have to dance with you in court. That’s a compliment, I think.

  85. mespo, for example, I plucked this gem out of the article you linked (I’m just scanning, not really reading):

    “This is not to say that having a developmental disorder enhances the likelihood of acting criminally per se. Rather, we shall describe the features of hfASD that would most likely be involved when criminal actions occur. “

  86. . . . on the other hand there is this, which seems to cut both ways (plus a small sample size):

    “Arguably, fire-related crimes are among the most frequently associated with hfASD. In a previously discussed study, Siponmaa et al.29 reported that 10 (63%) of 16 crimes of arson were perpetrated by subjects with hfASD diagnoses. This was the only crime category in which these diagnoses were over-represented”

  87. Don S:

    “Also, to my knowledge, “planned violence”: is not a discriminating behavior in the definition of DSM recognized disorders, so folks opining on the connection are to some extent free lancing. You could make or dispute the connection for many disorders.”


    You captured my point entirely. We don’t know if ASD causes or merely correlates with violence though common sense would suggest that the resulting depression and isolation leads to aggressive feelings. If we don’t know for sure, then our mental health “experts” shouldn’t be rushing to the podium to categorically denounce anyone who suggests a connection. It smacks of paternalism or pecuniary gain or both.

  88. People have the KJV but they are oblivious as to what the bible says prayer is.
    Romans 8:26
    King James Version of Romans 8:26.
    Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    This is not saying anything.
    Matthew 6 >>5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
    7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

  89. Jonathan:

    “People have the KJV but they are oblivious as to what the bible says prayer is.”


    Ooh, Ooh, I know. The Bible says prayer is worthless. Matthew 6:7-8

    Now was that a trick question?

  90. ” There are an estimated 300 million guns in the United States, one in four adult Americans owns at least one and most of them are men. The British newspaper The Guardian, reminds us that over the last 30 years, “The number of states with a law that automatically approves licenses to carry concealed weapons provided an applicant clears a criminal background check has risen from eight to 38.”‘

    “Every year there are 30,000 gun deaths and 300,000 gun-related assaults in the U.S. Firearm violence may cost our country as much as $100 billion a year. Toys are regulated with greater care and safety concerns than guns.”

    “So why do we always act so surprised? Violence is alter ego, wired into our Stone Age brains, so intrinsic its toxic eruptions no longer shock, except momentarily when we hear of a mass shooting like this latest in Colorado. But this, too, will pass and the nation of the short attention span quickly finds the next thing to divert us from the hard realities of America in 2012.”

    “We are after all a country which began with the forced subjugation into slavery of millions of Africans and the reliance on arms against Native Americans for its Westward expansion. In truth, more settlers traveling the Oregon Trail died from accidental, self-inflicted gunshots wounds than from Indian attacks – we were not only bloodthirsty, we were also inept.”

    “Nonetheless, we have become so gun loving, so blasé about home-grown violence that in my lifetime alone, far more Americans have been casualties of domestic gunfire than have died in all our wars combined. In Arizona last year, just days after the Gabby Giffords shooting, sales of the weapon used in the slaughter – a 9-millimeter Glock semi-automatic pistol – doubled.”

    “We are fooling ourselves. That the law could allow even an inflamed lunatic to easily acquire murderous weapons and not expect murderous consequences. Fooling ourselves that the second amendment’s guarantee of a “well-regulated militia” be construed as a God-given right to purchase and own just about any weapon of destruction you like. That’s a license for murder and mayhem and it’s a great fraud that has entered our history.”

    “There’s a video of which I’d like to remind you. You can see it on YouTube. In it, Adam Gadahn, an American born member of al Qaeda, the first U.S. citizen charged with treason since 1952, urges terrorists to carry out attacks on the United States. Right before your eyes he says: “America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms. You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle, without a background check, and most likely, without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?”‘

    “The killer in Colorado waited only for an opportunity, and there you have it — the arsenal of democracy transformed into the arsenal of death and the NRA — the NRA is the enabler of death — paranoid, delusional, and as venomous as a scorpion. With the weak-kneed acquiescence of our politicians, the National Rifle Association has turned the Second Amendment of the Constitution into a cruel hoax, a cruel and deadly hoax.”

    Bill Moyers

  91. pete9999, DonS, etc.
    nobody picks on me, so no bad feelings at all. Yes, but I gave the catergories we usually have of murders: domestic, alcoholism, and deranged persons.

    However, some have “difficulties in reading” civil discourse, and claim that I am derailing the discussion. I quote GeneH:

    “Oh, I have ways to achieve those goals, but I don’t think I’m interested in letting you further derail the conversation here, id707. However, my reply to you stands. Worry about your own solutions and I’ll worry about mine.”

    Geneh does not understand the nature of a free speech blog.

    1. Gene does not determine what is on the rails here. My personal comments to DonS in response to his personal questions were included in a comment right on the money.

    2. Gene does not know that all comments here are open to comment—-although he has reminded me several times of that..


    Congratulations on your moving the immovable object, ie GeneH.
    I note at least two major “clarifications” in his later comments.

    You are indeed a qualificerad debater. Welcome again. We need more.

    Except for the usual “I got your back”-coimments from some, we seem mostly inclined to look at the problem now:

    —-while Congress is gauging the long-term political effect among their voters and the gun lobby’s capability to sweep it under the rug of propaganda.

    —-while the Prez’s gang is figuring out the effects for him. He has come out with condolences, acknowledged that children are insufficiently protected, but propose no solution or even its direction. The man does not seem to have any guiding principles, nor a good contingency planning in his staff.

    The quickest will be a Congressional committee with hearings.
    The next quickest will be a Presidential Commission, and we know what they turn up: from JFK to Challenger to…..(If it weren’t for Richard Feynman).
    The best might be the committee, supplemented by CRS reports.

    The worst is what we have had since Koch’s front, ALEC, has been producing model laws, and even prior to that.

    When do we get a Dem think tank doing the same. The Dissident party is taking over the nation from below. Cute!

    Don’t want to politicize this. It is a human problem, should be treated as such, and should come onto the books with a law and an agency strong as the IRS, which was used for the original essays in meddling in states’ rights in the 20’s, I believe.

    Sucking on the violence teat offered by the MIC has brought us here. Let’s get weaned.

  92. “Don’t want to politicize this. It is a human problem, should be treated as such, and should come onto the books with a law and an agency strong as the IRS,…” idealist

    Yes, this is interesting. If we had a system with regular testing and education and continuing education and evaluation it may work well. I dont know why we cannot have registered gun owners come in from time to time to show us their expertise with guns, gun safety and storage, etc. They seem to like showing off their prowess with guns anyway, it shouldn’t bother them too much to do it for a licensing board.

    hooo boy, here is the Libertarian argument? This is what Meg McArdle comes up with:

    “I’d also like us to encourage people to gang rush shooters, rather than following their instincts to hide; if we drilled it into young people that the correct thing to do is for everyone to instantly run at the guy with the gun, these sorts of mass shootings would be less deadly, because even a guy with a very powerful weapon can be brought down by 8-12 unarmed bodies piling on him at once.”

    You first, Megan, m’kay?

    Interesting to note she cannot see how any legislative action will help but then decides ‘collective’ action is needed!

  93. id707,

    You mistake my not wishing to interact with you for something else.

    So I suggest you remember the warning you were given about starting shit.

  94. “Something needs to be done, these are not normal guns, that people need. These are guns for an arsenal, and you get lunatics like this guy who goes into a school fully armed and protected to take return fire. We live in a town, not in a war,” – Joel T. Faxon [NYT], Newtown resident, hunter and member of Newtown’s police commission, which had been working to restrict assault weapon shooting in the town prior to the tragedy.

  95. GeneH,

    You make me laugh!

    Gene H.1, December 18, 2012 at 4:04 am


    You mistake my not wishing to interact with you for something else.

    So I suggest you remember the warning you were given about starting shit.


    If you want to avoid interacting with me, it is your prerogative to not answer me. But it is not your prerogative to decide what I will address to you or others here.

    Only that the rule of civility, which is up to the Professor to decide, must be observed. Please note that civility is one thing, and respect is another. Respect may be given from one person to another, from Senator to Senator, but to my knowledge you are no more than a Guest Blogger, with no more powers of decision than I have here.

    As for any warnings that you have given about starting shit, that seems to be something that you have expressed—-at least you think so. I don’t recall any such warning. Was it official, ie anchored in the blog rules.
    If not, you may repeat ad nauseam if you wish, but it will be mine to decide if it is worthy of consideration.

  96. On the whole, to judge from polls, support for gun control has diminished in recent years. This can be ascribed to any one of a dozen factors: population control through propaganda, gerrymandering, our resistance to increases in shock from catastrophes, “one is a tragedy, many are statistics”, etc.

    However we can be sure that the political effects of gun lobbying are not small. The politicians, who are OUR first responders, have been bought off.

    A small proof of this is the first black Senator since the 1880s has been appointed to succeed DeMint. He is a proven conservative, since youth, and came in on the wave of TeaBag reps a short while ago.
    What hope have we for the responsiveness of a black TeaBagger on an issue of gun control? Or so many humane issues where support for the people is needed.

    Time moves on, the world does too; but our political system does not respond to anything but money. And to our voices. Time to raise them.

  97. “hooo boy, here is the Libertarian argument? This is what Meg McArdle comes up with:

    “I’d also like us to encourage people to gang rush shooters, rather than following their instincts to hide; if we drilled it into young people that the correct thing to do is for everyone to instantly run at the guy with the gun, these sorts of mass shootings would be less deadly, because even a guy with a very powerful weapon can be brought down by 8-12 unarmed bodies piling on him at once.”


    I’m not sure she is so wrong, but of course the devil is in the details. I most instances where people are trapped by someone with a gun the overwhelming odds are that the person is going to shoot. Having the gun freezes people and gives all the power to that person. My assumption would be that if someone is threatening people with a gun, they are going to shoot. There are better odds in not standing still and by attempting to rush the person, that it pleading with the person, running the other way or trying to duck down. This of course take courage and a certainty of bad injury, or death if one doesn’t act. Yet even though counter intuitive would be the best possible action. ow the one time I had a gun pointed at me I was alone and the person pointing the gun was in a gang down a long subway stairs, I backed off ad let them continue the mugging that I would have rushed to prevent.

    I’ve often played.scenarios in my head and have come to the conclusion that by conceding power to a gunman threatening me I have exponentially increased the odds of my being shot and think action is the most hopeful scenario. As an example we often see in crime cases and in movies. If someone with a weapon tries ordering you into a car, you have a better chance of survival resisting, that passively ceding control and obeying. I hope though I ever have to test this theory.

  98. My point is that they got it wrong and that the framing of the gun control issue as an absolute Constitutinal right is wrong, absurd and destructive. To hear all the talk about this alleged right you would think there are no others with which it conflicts and to which it should give way, that is the right to life.

    Constitutional scholars have a responsibility to keep up the noise on the issue of the SCOTUS rewrite of the Second Amendment and so should Senator Chuck. No American should accept this fraud and go quietly.

    Gun control now! Support it like your life and liberty depends on it because it does!

  99. “Speaking of interest groups, I’ve seen numerous “experts” on Aspergers Syndrome hitting the media outlets to state categorically that ASD is not associated with “planned violence.””


    I read the previous link you submitted and my conclusion as a former mental health professional, who did differential diagnostic work, is like most things in the Psychology scene it does not pass the smell test a scientifically acceptable fact.
    The entire DSM series are works of political composition, rather than true scientific tomes. Their value is as a sort of shorthand between clinicians to convey the behavioral problem of patients. The problem is that one persons diagnosis is another persons mis-diagnosis. Think of it akin to the disagreements between legal authorities on points of law. The difference is that Psychologists and Psychiatrists are thought of as scientists, when in fact they lack the true hard evidenced based results of the so-called hard sciences. The overriding truth I’ve seen in my 40 year involvement with psychotherapy is that it is an art, rather than a science and should be treated as such. Also too, there is what to me is a higher than normal rate of psychological disorder among those in these fields then there is in the “normal” population.

    Sorry OS, this certainly does’t include you, but I have to be honest about my observations of the field from the inside. That’s a major reason why I voluntarily gave up the training institute I co-founded.

  100. I think training 5 year olds to rush gunmen is hideous. Why not act on some sensible laws and regulation. I don’t think we are in danger of over reacting as we have under reacted for thirty years. The NRA provides such a strong headwind that it is nearly impossible to get anything done let alone the enactment of over reaching laws.

  101. Please Correct me if I’m Wrong….
    I have Not the Time to read All of Todays Posts, But….
    From memory…
    does “TEXAS” endure such faiths?…
    All Citizens (To my Knowledge) of “TEXAS” can Carry Hand Guns, and because of that, there is of No Such (or Little) Happenings!
    * If Everyone had the Right to Bear Arms… Would Not the SICK MINDED Individuals, Think TWICE, THREE, FOUR (or More)Times before Committing such Hanis Acts ???

  102. Junctionshamusj,

    You need to take yourself out of the equation because for you this is a work related matter and there would be accommodations made for your status in any regulations contemplated

    There is also currently a University that has established a separate dormitory for those students who are legally armed. The problem they have is that only a few students volunteer for it. I personally don’t see the need to be armed on a college campus, but then I don’t personally see the need to be armed, nor do I fear for my safety almost anywhere. However, you won’t see me drinking in a bar where people are allowed to carry, or go through neighborhoods where I feel a dangerous vibe. I’ve driven through a deserted downtown St. Louis late at night, for instance in a convertible with the top down. St. Louis is a high crime city. Was I alert, you betcha, but I was’t fearful because I trust my proven street smarts. Too many people live their lives in fear, I’ve faced the brink of death already, so what do I have to fear then except for taxes. :)

    As for your other points I agree with some such as number 4 and your willingness to accept taxation. As for the increased sentences I’m not sure I agree because I thik that even a little increase turns the situation into “what the hell might as well not leave witnesses”. For the “rate of fire” argument were you being ironic? Two or three shots is not the rate of fire I’m talking about. I know enough about hunting to that if you only wound an animal with your first shot, you would want another one or two to finish the job humanely. If you need more shots than that for a kill when hunting, I would advise turning to fly-fishing.

    Finally, Heinlein was a wonderful writer who I started reading around 1954 and continued reading through the years. As a person though he was more than a bit crazy and even his friends and contemporaries like Isaac Asimov, Fred Pohl and Lester Del Rey agreed on that. Heinlein and Harlan Ellison were on the same track mentally, though Ellison a bit more delusional. My favorite Heinlein book incidentally has almost been forgotten and it is called “Door Into Summer” a wonderful tale of time travel, love and revenge. “Stranger in a Strange Land” was also classic, but I didn’t find it emotionally moving. “Starship Trooper” was also a beloved piece of writing.

  103. “Heinlein and Harlan Ellison were on the same track mentally, though Ellison a bit more delusional.”

    Whoa there, pardner! Ellison can be a cantankerous prima donna pain in the ass, but delusional is going a bit far. He’s also one of the best story story writers ever. In addition, Heinlein – as much as I adore his writing – was practically a fascist. Ellison is anything but a fascist. More of an iconoclastic hedonist with a penchant for pissing people off. :mrgreen:

  104. Have people want to save a thing unseen called the soul giving good to get eternal joy people will resist the impulse to do what he did even as Jesus resisted to retaliate against people wanting him dead.

  105. “Whoa there, pardner! Ellison can be a cantankerous prima donna pain in the ass, but delusional is going a bit far.”


    I wasn’t comparing the politics of Heinlein and Ellison, but their craziness. In my opinion Heinlein was a Fascist, but I love his writing. Now as far as my proof about Ellison being more delusional do you know that he moved from YC to LA because he thought his NYC Apartment building was one of the two staging areas for the invasion of the Deros and Teros. I heard him talk about for three hours on the Long John Nebel all night radio show in NYC in the late 50’s. Also show regulars Pohl and Del Rey, who were friends of his, often made fun of Ellison’s delusions and paranoia. Since I’m a bit older than you I presume you haven’t heard of Deros and Teros. Check them out below: :)

  106. “Gov. Rick Perry (R-Texas) warned against a “knee-jerk” reaction from the federal government on gun control in the wake of the Sandy Hook shooting, and expressed support for allowing teachers to carry guns on campus.

    Speaking at a Tea Party event in North Richland Hills, Texas, on Monday night, Perry reflected on the Connecticut elementary school massacre that left 20 first-graders dead, calling it “evil,” according to NBC 5.

    Perry expressed his continued support for gun rights, according to the Dallas Morning News, saying he believed people with concealed-handgun licenses “should be able to carry your handgun anywhere in this state,” and elicited applause when he spoke positively about a Texas school system that allows some staff members to come to school armed.” Glad that I will be the leaving this state this year, Blouise.

  107. “As noted above, writer Harlan Ellison reportedly thought the Shaver Mystery was nonsense.”

    I did notice this from the Wiki article and I think they are wrong based on my hearing Ellison that night. He wasn’t being tongue in cheek as far as I could tell. They are also wrong about the 500 Apartment building in the US that provided these monsters from below entree. It was two apartment buildings, one in NYC and one in Detroit. you pressed the basement button on the elevator. It took you to the basement. Then you pressed the button twice more and then it took you on a separate track that took you to the cavernous world below the Earth. My teenage years were spent during the “Flying Saucer” mania ad ruefully it had a great influence on me.

  108. What Justice Holmes said.

    And what MikeS said in his first comment today.

    A psychologist said when completing a day of interviewing psychologist job seekers, that most of them were sicker than his patients. This was in 1963, maybe better now.

  109. Mike –

    I take Heinlein’s statement to an absurd level. It’s like, “Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.” Or, think of the golden rule, if you pack heat, b/c the other guy/gal might be packing also.

    Yeah, I may have overshot ironic to moronic with the rate of fire issue. But being the astute observer of the human condition that you are (truly), you know that any discussion on rate of fire will have both sides arguing just how much is too much…

    “I know enough about hunting to that if you only wound an animal with your first shot, you would want another one or two to finish the job humanely. If you need more shots than that for a kill when hunting, I would advise turning to fly-fishing.” I most certainly agree. And when I caught my first trout, it amortized out to about $650/pound, based on equipment, and other related expenses. Piscene ba$tard…

    Re: Taxes – The BATFE already has a schedule for taxing weapons such as sawed-off shotguns (legal to possess as collector items) and other weapons. Maybe just enough for owners to do a cost benefits analysis upon purchase (have gun sellers post tax rates, like appliance sales show energy cost-benefits – and while we’re at it, get 5 years’ taxes in advance from point of sale. They report the purchase to BATFE, so they can send a check with it.)

    In the same vein as Heinlein, I like Wagner…

    Thanks for your feedback, always a pleasure to know I’m not the biggest “idjit” in any group I travel… “I’M NOT #!, I’M NOT #1!…” :D (Although I’ve been called a big “#2” more times than I care to recall.) ;-)

  110. We need a law that prevents any teacher with a son named Adam from buying a firearm or ammunition. I would add Justin, Jason, Jared and Josh to that name ban. If teachers are outlawed only outlaws will have teachers.

  111. First Hurricane Sandy and not Sandy Pointe in Newtowne. If they had both hit at once the second would be smothered by the other.

  112. Thanks Gene.
    I understand what you were suggesting, but we have no choice but to take action on the abuse of guns and the loopholes that allow guns to be sold without background check or for mental stability. We regulate so many things in society, but we can’t regulate and restrict certain semi-automatic weapons and large capacity magazines?
    This is not knee-jerk reaction to the Newtown massacre, but a reaction to Columbine, Va Tech, NIU, to name a few. I can remember a shooter in North Suburban Chicago(Wilmette) in a very wealthy neighborhood who killed kids in a school way before Columbine. Laurie Dann who killed some kids and adults in a school and in a home with a semi-automatic pistol in 1988, I believe. She had severe mental health issues and a gun. She also tried poisoning people and if I remember correctly, she tried either setting a fire or bombing a school.
    This problem didn’t start with Newtown or the more recent mass murders. It didn’t start even in 1988 with Laurie Dann, but we have to start ending this nonsense. Reasonable controls of dangerous weapons and ammunition is not only legal, but necessary for the lives of all of us. The NRA exists not for the protection of the second amendment, but to protect the sales of guns for corporations. It is time to stand up to the NRA and get meaningful and reasoned reforms.
    Can I borrow the Nyquil? I may need some now! :)

  113. Editorial in top Swedish newsoaoer today.

    “Vi är impregnerade av våld, bröstfödda på det. Hur kan vi tro att vi skall stoppa det när vi ägnar halva vår vakna tid åt att bli underhållna av det.

    Tidningar, tv, film, böcker, allt! Våld. Ingen som fått nog? På riktigt?”
    Roughly translated:
    We are impregnated by violence. fed it since babyhood. How can we believe that we can stop it, when we spend half of our conscious time to being entertained by it.
    Newspapers, Cable, films, books, everything. Violence. Has anybody gotten enough? For real?
    I hope that it is clear that this is about the school shooting, with Newtown as the latest.

  114. junctionshamus,

    Far from being an “idjit” you are one of the newer regulars here whose comments I look forward to. There are too many other who have come on board this past year for me to thank you all without my poor memory hurting someone through thoughtless omission. The only trout fishing I’ve ever done was one afternoon about 52 years ago and I still cherish the memory of the waders, the stream, the woods and the peacefulness. There are some pastimes/sports that I appreciate even though I don’t participate.

    “Or, think of the golden rule, if you pack heat, b/c the other guy/gal might be packing also.”

    this is very true and tangentially very pertinent to the discussion. I really get the fact that people can enjoy guns, rifles, target shooting and hunting, because I can see the pleasure to be derived. however, I think there are many who are into guns because they’ve bought into the “Cowboy Myth”, or because it makes them think they’re tough. One thing I discovered in my youth when I had many fistfights in school, was no matter how tough someone might feel they are there is always someone tougher. Many gun enthusiasts today don’t get that, sometimes in a tragic way. Unless you are committed to having loaded guns placed all around your house, or on your person, it is always possible to be overwhelmed by someone catching you empty handed. In the alternative, if you want to lead a life constantly packing, you’re not leading a worthwhile life.

  115. Just to register my thoughts on Megan McCardle’s notion that 5 year olds should be taught to run towards the source of deadly fire. Number one, her idea is perverse and , number two, she’s perverted, to wit:

    Put the onus on coping with a deranged societal problem and product on the innocent and virginal victims vs dealing with several causes of the growing problem by attacking it’s roots.

    I’m sure Ms McCardle would say she only trying to be realistic and helpful, but further conditioning, even training innocent children to be inured to a culture of violence seems like the solution of a cold, crass and pathetically blind adult who is looking around for something to say to look clever and engaged.

    BTW, I’ve had a gun stuck in my face, while pretending to be asleep in my apartment. I’m glad I had no thought of resisting.

  116. Wonderful things said about yours truly; wonder if I’m going to prove him wrong…

    Wonder if – Wonder what American society would be like if we saw as much full-frontal nudity as shootings, and as many shootings as we see full frontal nudity, on broadcast and basic cable TV?

    Give a man a fish, and he’ll eat for one day; teach a man to fish, and he’ll blow thousands of bucks on “stuff”…

  117. Cross posted from Lieberman, better here I believe.

    idealist7071, December 18, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    Although nature confirms MikeS affirmation that rushing a gunman is appropriate activity, this must be a last resort tactic. With no disrespect, I ask are we training Iranian Guards suicide troops in the war with Irak?

    Colonies of birds will exemplify. They do not sit quietly waiting to be picked by the carnivorous bird. At the first alarm signal, they fly and create a pandemonium which makes it harder to select and capture a prey.

    Such suggestions as Megan McCargills’s puts the responsibility on the children, not where it belongs. Our kids take 18-25 years to mature. It is our job to protect them. Now get to it please.

  118. .shano:Lunatics don’t save their soul. That is what is not taught. Don’t teach people to do that loving whoever as themselves will result in what we see. The loser is not who you think. The killer is the loser.

  119. raff,

    Just remember that NyQuil is the only thing that tastes like red and green.



    I sent you an email in re: Harlan Ellison.

  120. “Mike,
    I sent you an email in re: Harlan Ellison.’


    You did and your evidence persuaded me that since what I remember happened 53 years ago and I was a impressionable 15 year old and it was late at night, I am wrong. All these years thinking Harlan was unstable and all that he was was a man marching to the beat of his own drummer. Of course my opinion made no difference to his illustrious life, but when you’re wrong…’re wrong.

  121. Newtown parents have formed an organization with a goal to talk to local politicans.

    What are we going to do here at JTs? ´Move on until the next tragedy?
    We’ll need the Professor’s permission to base activism here. But first we must have a plan.

    Blouise and SWM are experienced activists, not fair to point them out, but we who hope to get activated can hope for advice.

    Guns have no place in our Constitution, just as SYG and murder do not either.

  122. CNN excerpt.

    Editor’s note: Peter Bergen is a CNN national security analyst and author of “Manhunt: The Ten-Year Search for bin Laden, from 9/11 to Abbottabad” and “The Longest War: America’s Enduring Conflict with al-Qaeda.”

    (CNN) — The proliferation of semiautomatic weapons in the hands of Americans of the types that were used in the Newtown massacre is sometimes framed as a public health issue in the United States.

    There is considerable merit to the notion of treating gun violence as a public health matter. After all, homicides — around 70% of which are accomplished with firearms in the United States according to an authoritative study by the United Nations — are the 15th leading cause of death for Americans.

    Peter Bergen But framing gun control as a public health issue doesn’t quite do justice to the problem. It’s probably more or less inevitable that most Americans will die of cancer or a heart attack, but why is it even plausible that so many Americans in elementary schools, colleges, movie theaters and places of worship should die at the hands of young men armed with semiautomatic weapons?

    Americans generally regard themselves as belonging to an exceptional nation. And in terms of living in a religiously tolerant and enormously diverse country, Americans can certainly take some justified pride.

    Will Newtown change America’s attitude toward guns?

    Become a fan of CNNOpinion
    Stay up to date on the latest opinion, analysis and conversations through social media. Join us at Facebook/CNNOpinion and follow us @CNNOpinion on Twitter. We welcome your ideas and comments.

    That tolerant pluralism was on display Sunday night at the interfaith memorial service for the 27 victims in Newtown, which featured priests from several Christian denominations, clerics of the Muslim and Baha’i faiths as well as a rabbi, a memorial that was led by the country’s first African American president. But there is another side to American exceptionalism that many Americans seem strangely unable to recognize: Americans kill each other with guns at rates that are unheard of in other advanced industrialized countries. Britain, with around a fifth of the population of the United States, had 41 gun murders in 2010 while the States had around 10,000.

    The scale of this death toll really resembles a national security problem as much it does a public health issue.

    Consider that jihadist terrorists have only been able to kill 17 Americans in the United States since 9/11. Meanwhile, some 88,000 Americans died in gun violence from 2003 and 2010, according to the U.N. study.

    Activist frustrated with lack of action
    Changing gun control in U.S.
    Jamie Foxx: Get the guns off the street
    School security after mass killing
    How do we stop the violence? That means that in the past decade, an American residing in the United States was around 5,000 times more likely to be killed by a fellow citizen armed with a gun than by a terrorist inspired by Osama bin Laden.

    Consider also that there are cities in the United States today that exact a higher death toll from violence than the civilian death toll in the war in Afghanistan.

    Last year, some 3,000 Afghan civilians died in the Afghan War out of a population of 30 million, which makes the civilian death rate from the Afghan war 1 in 10,000.

    Yet residents of New Orleans are being killed at a rate that is six times that of Afghan civilians killed in that war. New Orleans had 199 murders last year, or 6 for every 10,000 residents.

    End excerpt.

  123. Certainly not “Christmas” in New Mexico, that’s for sure… I, WISH!!

    More like “Christmas” + eight to twelve hours. X-0

  124. raff,

    According to Lewis Black, NyQuil – his favorite drug because it says 40 proof on the bottle – is the only thing that actually tastes like the colors it comes in; red and green.



    If you’ve never seen the New Red Green Show where he builds his own air hockey table from two dryers and some duct tape, I highly recommend it.

  125. Gene H. 1, December 18, 2012 at 4:48 pm


    If you’ve never seen the New Red Green Show where he builds his own air hockey table from two dryers and some duct tape, I highly recommend it.
    I dig.

    Great talent.

  126. I bring you good news of sort… Last week Michigan passed Legislation that allowed a person to carry a concealed weapon on school grounds if they had 16 hour or more of weapon permit licensing. Today the governor of Michigan vetoed that legislation. I think it would have been signed but for the unfortunate incident in Connecticut. I talked to a friend of mine in the legislature that was concerned about it being signed, of course she is a good Democrat.

  127. Shall we have a reign of Terror, a la Bastille?

    I don’t mind being sprayed with a little Dissident Party blood. So let me have the first pass at the guillotine. Just joking of course.

    With half the population gone, who would run our sweat shops, who would have money to tax, who would establish a republican democracy for us.

    Any ideas?

    Of course, you could immigrate to Sweden, then it would be tight as Holland here. But bring your own snowshovels and flashlights.
    And be prepared for the girls taking it off , sunning in Spring.

  128. SwM,

    Once you are up here you will be able to more fully engage with efforts to bring about change on whatever issue strikes your fancy.

    I had any number of choices offered and invitations extended over the last couple days regarding constructive actions to be taken in regards to this latest mass murder. I choose a group organized by former Prosecutors and other lawyers from around the state who in turn are connected to other, similar groups across state lines. It was a most informative meeting with little time wasted on pleasantries and surprisingly, considering the number of trial attys. present, no talking just to hear oneself speak.

    At any rate … excellent plans made with an eye towards not only the legal issues involved but the time frame. These people are committed for the long haul and they are a good mix of cold calculation and sincere compassion. They speak my language.

  129. SwM,

    PP also has local support chapters all over the place up here (North) so you can make an active difference.

    There are certain issues I will just talk about but then there are others that demand more than just talk … it’s good to be active … I know you agree.

  130. Blouise, II is not going to happen fast enough for me…… but realistically it will be late summer or early fall. Still have plenty of work to do on the house.

  131. Virginia Governor McDonnell Wants More Guns In Schools
    By Josh Israel
    Dec 18, 2012

    Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell (R) became the latest anti-gun control figure to embrace the notion that the best way to protect against future tragedies like Newtown, Connecticut, is to put more guns in public schools. In his monthly “Ask the Governor” segment on WTOP radio, McDonnell endorsed the idea of arming adults in schools.

    Asked about allowing school officials to have guns, McDonnell said it is a “discussion that is probably timely.” He explained:

    McDONNELL: I know there has been a knee-jerk reaction against that, I think there should at least be a discussion of that. If people were armed, not just a police officer, but other school officials who were trained and chose to have a weapon, certainly there would be an opportunity to stop aggressors trying to come into the school, so I think that’s a reasonable discussion that ought to be had.

  132. Poor McDonnell

    Some pro-gun folk realize they are dealing with a Katrina and then there are the McDonnells of the movement who just keep having their “attaboy Bownie” moments.

  133. “the high visibility of these tragedies skews people’s perceptions about risks. I think the risk of this kind of tragedy is already so low that it’s 1) hard to lower the risk even more, and 2) hard to justify lowering this risk relative to many other risks we could be lowering.

    We should always strive to continue to reduce all risks of death, especially the preventable risks of other humans, wherever possible. But the risks will always exist. If your chance of dying in a mass shooting is 0.000003% and your chance of dying in a car accident is 0.9%, with a whole lot of other risks in between, I think it’s reasonable to ask if there aren’t a lot of easier and more effective ways to try to use the government’s limited resources to save lives than trying even harder to prevent the next shooting tragedy than we already are.”

  134. “Government cannot create a world without risks, nor would we really wish to live in such a fictional place. Only a totalitarian society would even claim absolute safety as a worthy ideal, because it would require total state control over its citizens’ lives. Liberty has meaning only if we still believe in it when terrible things happen and a false government security blanket beckons.”

    -Ron Paul

  135. Elaine – (1) When your state motto is “Sic semper tyrannis,” and (2) once you get outside I-495, McConnell’s position is within his electorate’s comfort zone (carpetbaggers excluded). And unless Johnny’s a little turd during the school year; during hunting season, the average rural Virginia high school student parking lot is second only to the local National Guard Armory in firepower. I know PA used to just say, “To heck with it,” and made the first day of deer hunting a teacher professional day.

  136. mespo,

    Funny you should mention that. I was just talking to OS’s son about that as an alternative to arming teachers. We were of the consensus it’s a good idea.

  137. junction:

    In the dark ages when I attended Prince George High School (Va), I routinely (along with many of my friends) brought shotguns onto school grounds after deer hunting all morning. There were no incidents of violence. The guns were usually visible in gun racks in the pickup trucks. Had anyone with a mindset like Lanza’s ventured onto the campus he would have in short order been confronted with a well-armed, if unregulated, militia. Country folks can aim straight.

  138. Mespo: Would anyone object to trained armed security at publicly accessed school entrances as we have at other public buildings? We do this for judges and lawmakers.

    Court houses invite violence by the nature of the proceedings held therein. The chances of being killed in a school shooting are too low to warrant such a measure.

  139. Bob,Esq:you save people from being killed buy having people save their soul by being like Jesus is. Eternity starts now not latter. Today is when the foundation is built not when God comes back in glory. People have to be taught to act like they are in heaven now to be ready for it latter. Religions do not teach that.

  140. Bob,Esq:

    Well, they certainly could also search for contraband brought in by students, teachers, or other employees. I think it would not be cost prohibitive and I would welcome that as opposed to arming 5-year-olds or 20 something teachers fresh out of college.

  141. Mark,

    Why the false dilemma? Who says you have to arm anyone?

    And would this school also be teaching the kids about the bill of rights?

  142. Mark – The perfect segue for some Hank, Jr., “A Country Boy Can Survive,” but folks might still be a little tender toward his Obama stance.

  143. Jonathan:

    “Bob,Esq:you save people from being killed buy having people save their soul by being like Jesus is. Eternity starts now not latter.”


    Tell me honestly, have you just finished reading Genesis 11:1-9. It’s starting to show through.

  144. Bob,Esq:

    While current gun control laws would not have stopped Lanza, armed guards might well have prevented or mitigated the tragedy. Not sure it’s a false dilemma when 20 kids have just been senselessly murdered and the nearest help was minutes away while seconds counted.

  145. “Well, they certainly could also search for contraband brought in by students, teachers, or other employees.” -mespo727272


  146. Bob,Esq:

    As for what we’re teaching our kids about rights, I suppose we’re teaching them the very real truth that rights depend on the legitimate use of force by the state to protect the possessors of those rights from others who would take them away by force.

  147. Sorry Mark,

    I’ve seen your arguments per “the legitimate use of force by the state” — and I’m well aware you place absolutely no limit on it.

    Ron Paul makes a cogent point above.

  148. mespo727272 build on fear build for war. Don’t people know that? People that build on fear are controlled by a devil. The only thing they know is fear. Why let people be controlled by devils? Devils have a dead soul. Allow one in you will kill your soul before your body dies. A person that wants to kill already has a dead soul that will perish with the body.

  149. Here’s one of my very favorite pro-gun boys:

    Further words of gun wisdom from good ol’ Phil:

    “”I could ask you why should anyone want a Ferrari?” Van Cleave said Sunday. “’Bushmasters] are absolutely a blast to shoot with. They’re fast. They’re accurate.’

    And there’s no denying that their fearsome, combat-ready appearance adds to their appeal, he said.

    ‘Guns are fun, and some of them are much more cool than others. It’s just like we have television sets that look cool, and others are much more boxy,” Van Cleave said.” (these words are not out of context and were said day before yesterday)

    Attaboy, Brownie … keep ’em coming.

  150. Bob,Esq:

    There are plenty of safeguards on domestic exercises of state power. Equating life vests with protecting kids seems a tad off base given recent events. The point is that our kids deserve as least as much consideration as your typical federal building.

  151. JOnathan:

    “People that build on fear are controlled by a devil. The only thing they know is fear.”


    Funny, that is precisely my criticism of the Christian religion.Revelation 20:14,15

  152. The clergy seem to glom onto to any tragedy and the media obliges. Huckabee’s need to backtrack suggests that this has gone a little too far but not far enough for it to stop.

  153. Bob,Esq:

    Is that quote from the same Ron Paul who said famously:

    “If you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be….Given the inefficiencies of what D.C. laughingly calls the `criminal justice system,’ I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal.”

    I don’t even think he made the trains run on time.

  154. People were faithless doing what they were doing being single minded in trying to build a building high enough to have people not be drowned in another flood. God told them it would not happen. He had to do what he did to stop their foolishness. I know the entire KJV very well. I know what Jesus would follow,and what he would not follow. Jesus is the word made flesh. Jesus is a loving being. A loving being will not harm people. People harm themselves by not being like he is.

  155. Bob/mespo,

    I think the cost of having guards to protect against violence is a minimal cost that has enough mitigation value to merit considering even though the need may be remote. I’m not going to play an appeal to probability against the gain in actual safety. However, the searching students thing? That’s just a draconian imposition on 4th Amendment rights absent probable cause; a police state tactic.

  156. Mespo: “Equating life vests with protecting kids seems a tad off base given recent events.”


    Recent events are about as rare as people drowning in flash floods.

    Appealing to the emotion created by said rare tragedy distorts perspective as to actual risk.

    Again, your typical Federal building invites violence by the nature of the business it transacts. Comparing it to a school is a per se faulty comparison.

  157. Poisoning the well Mark?

    Why not attack the truth of the matter asserted by Paul in the quote I cited?

    Or don’t you want to sound as bat shit crazy as Jonathan Hughes?

  158. Jonathan:

    ” I know the entire KJV very well. I know what Jesus would follow,and what he would not follow. ”
    One wonders with your intimate and unerring knowledge of the proclivities of the all powerful divine creator of the universe why you would have such need for the deity’s guidance at all. God does work in mysterious ways.

  159. Gene H:

    I don’t think there is a constitutional right to transport contraband onto school grounds and I don’t think a trip through the scanner constitutes an unreasonable infringement of the 4th Amendment rights of students anymore than it does of mine as I traipse into court.

  160. mespo,

    Specificity counts. A scanner is non-invasive. If it’s a safe technology? I have no issue with that. However, pat down is invasive. There is no Constitutional right to have an adult grope a teen or a child absent PC either.

  161. Bob,Esq:

    Good night, Bob. By the way,that well was polluted long ago and “bat-sh*t crazy” seems to have a nice ring to it as applied to our libertarian candidate for President.

  162. Gene H:

    Agreed. I don’t think we need pat-downs. Just a little trip through the looking glass to disincentivize contraband.

  163. Genesis 11:1-9. That is the second death. There is no chance for life after the second death. That occurs around the city of God. Light of God is seen by the wicked as fire. No eternal fire around the city of God. People like you, and the zoosexuals who want to cridisize me for teaching what is in the KJV have no right. They don’t know what is in it taught by warmongering religions that chew up people when they know what sexuality they are having them arrested jailed or killed..

  164. Jonathan:

    “Genesis 11:1-9. That is the second death. There is no chance for life after the second death. That occurs around the city of God. Light of God is seen by the wicked as fire.”


    My dear Biblical scholar, I think you have your verses confused or maybe your deity does, Genesis 11 recounts the fable of the Tower of Babel. Revelation 20 tells the fire and brimstone story for folks who don’t get an entry in the “Book of Life.”

    To verify, you can either look it up or do a Vulcan mind-meld with your deity.

  165. God who is in spirit unseen at this point in time is in me teaching the unerring truth in the KJV that harms no one. People that are evil kill; kill, kill, thinking God is sanctifying the killing. They are listening to deceiving beguiling lying devils.

  166. Jonathan:

    “People that are evil kill; kill, kill, thinking God is sanctifying the killing. ”


    “Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.” (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

    “You should not let a sorceress live.” (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

    “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    “A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.” (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    “All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense.” (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

    Seems like that sanctifying thing is pretty well-founded given the holy literature.

  167. Revelation 20 KJV That is the second death. There is no chance for life after the second death. That occurs around the city of God. Light of God is seen by the wicked as fire. No eternal fire around the city of God. People like you, and the zoosexuals who want to cridisize me for teaching what is in the KJV have no right. They don’t know what is in it taught by warmongering religions that chew up people when they know what sexuality they are having them arrested jailed or killed..

  168. Mark – I bought the term “Bat-Sh!t” from my S-2 in 1979. As such, put a buck in a red kettle or face some serious litigation… :-)

  169. mespo727272 religions are anti Christ. Jesus is the word made flesh. The calling of death could have been called by Jesus to all life.That is because he is perfect. Jesus says he that is without sin cast the first stone.The thing is if he did Satan would have won because Jesus would have been instantly imperfect. All of your quotes are not from the KJV. Religions pervert the bible too pervert defiled,and abominable,and naughty too. You buy into the people that make those words sex, and nudity.
    Proverbes 11:12,He that is void of wisdom dispises his neighbor: but a man of understanding holdeth his peace.
    The zoo is your neighbor being dispised in Germany being naughty toward the zoo. They need to judgie themselves saving their soul.
    Proverbes 11:13, a tail bearer revealith secrets, but he that is of a faithful spirt conseeleth the matter.
    People against the zoo blabber,and blabber to try, and make trouble.
    Proverbes 3:30 Strive not with a man without a cause, if he hath done thee no harm.
    people strive against the zoo Pedo, and whoever else.

    Here are more verses so you do not have to look them up.
    Abomination, perversion, and defiled are not what religions say either.
    You are trusting in murderous liars.
    10; things that are abominable, not one of them is connected to any sexual activity.
    15; verses about the word perverse. Not a one of them connected to any kind of sex.
    4; verses about defile. Not a one connected to evil accusations.
    All of the words used against naked people, and the sexualities are not what religions claim.
    Perversion in not any kind of sex.
    Proverbs 17 :23A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.
    Proverbs 15 4A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.
    Job 6 >>30Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?
    King James Version
    Proverbs 12 >>8A man shall be commended according to his wisdom: but he that is of a perverse heart shall be despised.
    King James Version
    Isaiah 30 >>12Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon
    King James Version
    1 Timothy 6 >>5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness
    King James Version
    Deuteronomy 16 >>19Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous. Words are perverted not sex of any kind..
    Job 8 >>3Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?
    King James Version
    Jeremiah 23 >>36And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
    Galatians 1 >>7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    King James Version
    Ecclesiastes 5 >>8If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province,
    King James Version
    Micah 3 >>9Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity.
    King James Version
    Pro 19 1Better is The poor that walketh in his integrity, than he that is perverse in his lip,and and is a fool,
    Pro 4 24,Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
    KJV, Proverbs 3, 32For the froward is abomination to the LORD,not gay sex sex with other species or sex when the age spread is wide.
    Pro 12; 22Lying lips are abomination
    Proverbs 20 :10Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD .
    looky here 7 more things that are abominable to the lord. Not a one of them is any kind of sex.
    KJV, Pro; 6;16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren,
    Hebrews 12:15; Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.
    A bitter person will have bitter words.
    Isaiah 59 >>3For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
    King James Version
    The verse above takes about defiled,and perverse with both not Being sex of any kind.
    Matthew 15 >> 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
    King James Version
    Mark 7 >> 15There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

  170. Aargh,… groan, ….people ,…. that burning of the wicked in Revelation 20 9 King James version happens on earth around the city of God. There is no eternal fire burning on earth with the redeemed singing the version of tip toe through the tulips through hot coals and fire all through eternity. No lost no lake of fire.

  171. Look see a person only has to hate to be a murderer. That is the worst thing you can be.
    1 John 3:15:King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him

    Luke 6:37:King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

    Romans 2:1King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

    Romans 14:10:
    10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

    12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

    13Let us not therefore judge one another any more:

    1 Samuel 16:7:King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

    The Lord refuses mespo727272 seeing your murderous heart.

    Proverbs 14:21 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he.

    To want to kill is not having mercy. Jesus showed us that.

  172. Blouise – Wonder how many Continuing Education Units their union would demand? MS in Primary/Secondary Education, minor in Sharpshooting. Or – Now, where did you say that was that in my contract? (Wonder if they have something like the military – “…other duties as assigned.”

    Up and at ’em, exploring the UMDDA in Colorado. Life is good. Gettin’ a little cranky, but this one goes out to the naysayers: ;-)

  173. My House Representative, Mary Kaptur, has a C- rating from the NRA. I have emailed her suggesting she should work harder at getting an F.

    My Senator, Sherrod Brown, has applied himself working hard to earn an F from the NRA. I have sent him a note of congratulations and encouraged him to keep up the good work.

  174. PS – End of a 17-hour shift, and I.AM.OUTTA.HERE! Maybe I better swill some gin and put some lipstick on my collar – Mrs. Junctionshamus might not believe me. Worse is the explanation to the Colorado Office of Alternate Defense Counsel.

    Good night, Mrs. Calabash (Blouise), wherever you are…

  175. As to the arming of teachers … just one more layer of who to blame when the next gun lover commits mass murder.

    Video games, mental health problems, teachers who fumbled the draw …

    ” The California State Teachers Retirement System, a large pension fund, told The Wall Street Journal that it was reviewing its $500 million investment commitment to Cerberus because of the firm’s stake in Freedom Group (The company that makes one of the weapons used to kill elementary school children in Connecticut). … then Cerberus Capital Management said Tuesday it will sell its controlling stake in Freedom Group International … Shares of Sturm, Ruger & Co. down more than 10 percent since Thursday, the day before the shooting. Shares of Smith & Wesson Holding Corp. are down 19.3 percent from their Thursday close. ” (

  176. Mespo, re “a vulcan mind-meld with your deity,” that’s where we came from, according to Julian Jaynes. See “The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.”

    There’s nothing wrong with melding, by the way. It should be done in private and not with anyone under the age of consent.

    Yesterday I had a really brilliant thought but then I forgot it.

  177. malisha:

    “Yesterday I had a really brilliant thought but then I forgot it.”


    No probs. I’m sure I caught it with the cosmic mind-meld.

  178. story from Buckeye Firearms Association:

    “On May 15, 1974, three Palestinian terrorists killed 25 people including 22 Israeli children in Ma’alot. They had taken 115 people hostage in Netiv Meir Elementary School. Even though Israel is a smaller, more-close knit country, we are today, where they were then. They had the same resolve to take meaningful action as President Obama, and they carried through with it.
    They decided that it made no sense to have armed people to protect money, but no one to protect their children. They realized the only reliable way to stop an evil person with a gun, was to have a good person with a gun on scene and ready to take action to stop the killing quickly. Such protection does not come cheaply, and like it or not, money is a factor in everything, including our children’s safety.
    Today all Israeli children are protected by at least one armed person. In every school, on every school bus, at school functions and field trips. Parents and teachers are trained and armed. They volunteer to protect their children because they love them. They made a conscious decision that killing them would never again be made so easy. Last week, a total of zero children died in school shootings in Israel. I believe our parents love our children every bit as much as Israeli parents, and we could copy their success.
    We have hundreds of multiple victim killings to study. They are premeditated events. We know that, like the terrible events on Friday, these attacks almost always occur in politically correct, so called “gun free zones.” How sadly ironic. Best of all, we know how to stop the attacks when they start. We must offer resistance to stop the killer. The faster we do this, the fewer people die.”

  179. Jonathan:

    “religions are anti Christ”


    That’s the smartest thing you’ve said. Bravo, but it’s not original:

    “”The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it’s benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind.”

    ~Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson (1801)

  180. Bron,

    What is your stand? With or against Buckeye?

    I was expecting this to be brought up about the Israel situation..
    It is a special case in a special land with compulsory military training for both men and women. These parents are fully trained and even sometimes veterans of combat.

    To suggest that we follow suit is the height of deceit. But it would sell ammo.

    I would prefer the world of my childhood in the 1940s, when all children were the children of all. And children who become adults and then massacre others are victims of our society’s failings. Those two items are worth our efforts, although it will take a long time.

    Parents do not even have time for their own children today. Tough choice.
    A new violence game or going somewhere and doing something together—-and I don’t mean shopping. Is shopping really America’s chief leisure time activity—behind Cable TV, of course?

    Thanks for the loan of your springboard. Nothing personal at all. I mean it.
    Your words got me started, that is why we are here—–one of the whys.

  181. “Tariq Aziz, 16-year-old casualty of a US drone attack in Waziristan
    Newtown kids v. Yemenis and Pakistanis: what explains the disparate reactions?”

    “Meanwhile, University of Michigan professor Juan Cole, at the peak of mourning over Newtown, simply urged: “Let’s also Remember the 178 children Killed by US Drones”. He detailed the various ways that children and other innocents have had their lives extinguished by President Obama’s policies, and then posted this powerful (and warning: graphic) one-and-a-half-minute video from a new documentary on drones by filmmaker Robert Greenwald (no relation)”:

  182. Ap, What Juan Cole says is true but we must not be deterred from taking legislative action on guns. The two are related morally but not legislatively.

  183. Biden was chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee when the 1994 assault weapons ban was passed by Congress and signed into law by President Bill Clinton.

  184. Redundant, perhaps.
    Questions I ask myself about Connecticut School Shooting

    Posted on 12/14/2012 by Juan Cole

    I ask myself, “Why?”

    Why do US cable news networks intensively cover these mass shootings, making it the only story for a day or two and prying into every detail of them, when they aren’t interested in preventing them from happening again through banning semi-automatic weapons? Is it just, like, a natural disaster to them?

    Why don’t the news anchors or discussants ever bring up the simple fact that between 1994 and 2004, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994: The Federal Assault Weapons Ban prohibited assault weapons? The prohibition was not unconstitutional. Congress foolishly put in a 10-year sunset provision, and of course Bush and his Republican Congress allowed it to expire.

    Why doesn’t anyone blame George W. Bush for these mass shootings? He’s the one who led the charge to let the assault weapons ban expire. Why aren’t the politicians in Congress who take campaign money from assault weapons manufacturers ever held accountable by the public?

    Why don’t the news programs bring up the reported moves of Sen. Diane Feinstein to prepare new legislation banning assault weapons and their accoutrements? Are they so afraid of the NRA that they can’t even discuss the legislative process in public?

    What in the world does the 2nd amendment have to do with these incidents? Do they look like a “well-regulated militia” to you? Semi-automatic weapons are the 18th-century equivalent of artillery in terms of their ability to kill. Do you think people should be allowed to have artillery pieces in their back yards, too? Is this some sort of sick joke, that you are telling us our children have to die because the Founding Fathers wanted madmen to have high-powered weaponry?

    Why does complaining about semi-automatic weapons (and the means to make them fully automatic by attaching e.g. ammunition drums) being freely available always devolve into an argument about gun control and hunting? No one minds if people buy rifles to shoot deer with in the countryside. An ordinary, non-automatic rifle can’t produce a mass killing like that in Connecticut because it cannot get off so many rounds so quickly. Nobody hunts with an automatic pistol, and if they do, they should be publicly shamed by, like a group of hot girls calling them wusses as they set off in their hunting jackets.

    Why aren’t there more class-action lawsuits against the people responsible for the proliferation of high-powered weaponry in our society? Lax gun laws and inadequate security checks in Mississippi, West Virginia and Kentucky and 7 other states meant that they supplied nearly half the 43,000 guns traced to crime scenes in other states in one recent year. The guns aren’t randomly acquired, and they aren’t used or Saturday night specials. They come disproportionately from specific states.

    Likewise, a relatively small number of corporations produce and market semi-automatic weapons for the civilian market. Why aren’t they named and shamed?

    Why doesn’t anyone on these news channels ever mention that firearms are used in 300,000 crimes a year in the US?

    Why doesn’t anyone on television news ever simply give this statistic: In one recent year, there were 39 murders by gun in the UK, but 9,000 in the United States? Why is it wrong to let Americans know how peculiar is the situation Americans have to live in?

    (Swarthmore mom, I agree…)

  185. “When I get to the Senate, I will sign onto Senator Feinstein’s bill to re-instate a ban on assault weapons and other commonsense gun control measures. We have a responsibility to ourselves and to our children to take the steps we can to stop the violence.” Elizabeth Warren

  186. AP,

    Redundancy is never possible in a good cause. The message in its variations have to be repeated for it to penetrate. Look at commercials. Are they redundant? Sure as hell are, with a purpose.

    We must act together to remove the self-produced halos from these “sinners”.

    Juan was a good choice.

  187. As an American who has lived in Europe for over 40 years, I am continually amazed by my country’s ability to regulate gun ownership and usage. Following the 1996 Dunblane massacre Britain tightened its already strict gun laws. Australia did the same after the Port Arthur incident of the same year. Neither county has had a single mass killing since.

    The essence of the UK law is the following

    1. No automatic weapons are allowed for any purpose.
    2. Every gun owner must be licensed for each gun.
    3. Every gun must be kept in a secure safe and only the licensed owner may have a key.
    4. Only licensed gun owners may purchase ammunition and only in limited quantities for a gun the are licensed to own.
    5. To obtain a license, the owner must how a need for the gun being licensed. Self defense is never an accepted reason.
    6. To obtain a license, the prospective gun owner must provide references and be interviewed by the police.
    7. No person who has ever received a prison sentence of over 5 years my get a gun license.
    8. No person who has received any custodial sentence may even apply for a license.
    9. There are strict conditions preventing those who being treated or have been treated for mental illness from receiving a license.
    10.Only specially authorized security staff may carry a gun or have a loaded gun in any vehicle. There is no right-to-carry for ordinary citizens.
    11. There a stiff prison sentences and draconian fines for any violation of the gun laws.

    As a result, The UK with a population of 602 million had only 51 gun homicides in 2011 while the US had over 10,000.

    Will someone please do something.

  188. No one should give a law of what is said to be consent. That is an arbitrary law. The law of people is like that. That mentality will also pervert scripture too making people make more, and more translations saying Hmm no that’s not right try this, and on, and on that goes like gossip having the word stray farther, and farther away from what God interned the word to mean. People also forget how Jesus is who is the word made flesh. Gods law is so simple it confuses the human mind. Judge yourself. That means it does not matter what age is with you. What matter is who is in you, .Jesus or the devil. It is an individual choice. Eternal life doing what Jesus would to which is good or not=- eternal death.

  189. No one should give a law of what is said to be consent. That is an arbitrary law. The law of people is like that. That mentality will also pervert scripture too making people make more, and more translations saying Hmm no that’s not right try this, and on, and on that goes like gossip having the word stray farther, and farther away from what God interned the word to mean. People also forget how Jesus is who is the word made flesh. Gods law is so simple it confuses the human mind. Judge yourself. That means it does not matter what age is with you. What matter is who is in you, .Jesus or the devil. It is an individual choice. Eternal life doing what Jesus would to which is good or not=- eternal death.
    The human mind in confusion will make more, and more laws to confuse people thinking they are not being confused holding themselves in bondage with their own laws.

  190. The UK with a population of 602 million had only 51 gun homicides in 2011 while the US had over 10,000. -Walter Zwick

    Correction to population: ~ 62 million plus’

    Thanks for the good UK info.

  191. Walter Zwick,

    Well done. If we scale that figure then we get a relation for 350 to 60, roughly 5 to one.
    We get about 10,000 to 300+ for USA to UK. So the USA is 30 times as crazy as UK. I said that. Some need simple facts, eat your All-Bran children.
    Anything beside gun restrictions?
    How did you deal with guns already in possession? Did people hide them?

    Regards from an ex-pat since 44 years in Stockholm.

  192. Everybody,

    Send a copy of the UK gun law explanation to your Congressman.

    Or better yet, to your friends with similar sympathies.

    Or even best, be generous: Send it to all you know—-except those at work.

  193. mespo727272 1, December 18, 2012 at 10:46 pm

    anonymously posted:

    Well ridiculous or no it’s certainly being done now in some schools.

    Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell has also floated the idea.

    If you could pull the information out of the article that you cited, it would be helpful. At a glance, I didn’t see it, but perhaps I missed it. Some schools may be doing it, but it doesn’t make it sound or wise policy.

    And let’s be clear that you’re referring to Governor Bob “Transvaginal Ultrasound” McConnell? lol Good old Governor VP.

    My original comment stands: Ridiculous.

  194. Excuse me, I’m unfamiliar with the term “custodial sentence” as opposed to a “prison sentence.” What’s the difference? In the UK.

  195. Could it be said that, like a lot of “time honored” institutions, the NRA has lost it’s way? Usurped for commerce, rather than teaching the youth of America traditions of gun safety, an appreciation of hunting as stewardship and responsible harvesting of wildlife for food…

    BTW – Did someone pull the plug on the man test? Wanted to see how I fared, but guess I’ll have to rely on the old test; do I care about my family, my neighbors, my community, my country and my planet? Would I treat others fairly, and make every attempt not to be judgmental (THAT judgmental thing can be the hardest part of living) and respect differing points of view? As much as I can slip into the “it’s tough to be a man, baby” (remember the movie “DC Cab”?), I’d like to think that at the end of the day, I’ve accomplished being a man, or more importantly, a huMAN being.

  196. Just guessing: Custody would be for those who as children can not be confined to prison. ??????? ( I thought that the UK was famous for not having this distinction.)

    What ýou don’t learn in the former, you will in the latter.

  197. JunctionShamus,

    “….and make every attempt not to be judgmental (THAT judgmental thing can be the hardest part of living)….”

    I used to spend every street walk judging every person and thing I encountered. Mostly negatively of course. Now I note, do not involve myself, and pass on, Have pretty well stopped it for some months now.

    What a hell that was before stopping. I hope others will read and examine how they view life and others around them. Could lead to peace.

  198. Well, in re “custody versus prison” in the UK gun laws, this:

    A person sentenced to prison for 5 or more years = no gun
    A person sentenced to CUSTODY at all, for any amount of time = no gun

    So I can’t believe it’s equivalent to “juvenile detention” — that might mean that a kid gets sentenced to “custody” for stealing a candy bar.

  199. Odds of dying by suicide: 1 in 122
    Odds of dying in an auto accident: 1 in 244
    Odds of dying in from falling: 1 in 270
    Odds of dying by accidental poisoning 1 in 292
    Odds of dying by homicide (firearm): 1 in 328
    Odds of dying from drowning: 1 in 1,008
    Odds of dying in a fire: 1 in 1,062
    Odds of dying in random public shooting: 1 in 384,000
    Odds of dying from falling vending machine: 1 in 450,000
    Odds of dying in school shooting: (roughly) 1 in 1,000,000
    Odds of dying in a terrorist attack: 1 in 9,300,000

  200. Starting as a juvenile criminal sentenced to correction (choose euphemism) will prevent gun ownership. No rebate for youth.
    Starting as an adult and requiring 5 years prison seems a bit light.

    But maybe the prisons are overcrowded. And they don’t need more sheepherders in the Scottish hillsides. Or the pols want to keep theirs in spite of petty convictions for fraudulent use of public moneys.

    Let’s hope a more knowledgeable than I can clarify.

    Melli Kalikimaka to you. Said in honor of the deceased Senator Inouye.

  201. You’re odds of being killed by something like a Coca-cola machine falling on top of you are twice as good as being killed in a terrorist attack.

  202. Gene – Depends, though I understand what it is you’re getting at.

    Most deaths attributed to vending machines involve (1) alcohol, and/or (2) lost change. Got to a point when I was in the service, that vending machines would be secured to the rear wall, to keep your average private from rocking it back and forth, because it ate his coins. Did have one genius who tried to sling a hammock between two machines on a dare. Lucky Ba$tard – both machines toppled onto each other, and hung up in an A-frame, giving him the split-second he needed to keep from being a platoon-sized pizza.

  203. Intentional self-poisoning 1 in 727

    Intentional self-harm by hanging, strangulation, and suffocation, 1 in 655

    Intentional self-harm by firearm 1 in 214

    Other and unspecified means 1 in 1,560

  204. “A heck of a lot of suicides are done with guns. I would bet it is in the top 5 methods used.”

    Yes, I’m sure it was the gun whispering into the victim’s ear.

  205. Life vests and helmets shall be worn at all times. The state doesn’t want you dying from falling down the stairs or drowning.

  206. When I was on the verge of death and physically depleted a few years ago I contemplated using a Coke machine to do the job, but couldn’t figure out the hoist mechanism. If I was a gun owner I wouldn’t have had that problem.

  207. “Gene H.1, December 19, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    A heck of a lot of suicides are done with Coke machines. It just takes a lot longer.

    LOL, but true. Patient across the aisle was told that his daily drinking of 2 quarts carbonized Spring water, was the cause of his edema and he should moderate to one glass a day. I had no idea, he said.
    What’s he going to tell his 13 grandchildren


    How many choose the plastic sack method?

    There is a solution to it all. If we continue the gun way, we will become used to the slaughter of innocents. Even our own. We are now enured to those in foreign lands, collateral damage in our war on ????

  208. Clarfication: Grandpa’s edema was a serious strain on his heart, which was etc etc. Funny how a glass of water too many can kill you. And to exhilarate some, it won’t take long if you set your mine to it. You can get poisoned by pure water in large quantities. How large. Search for it.

  209. Gun deaths to surpass deaths in traffic accidents by 2015: report
    Gun deaths are on the rise, and in three years, more Americans will die from gunshot wounds than in car crashes, a report found.

    “Buckle up” those bullet-proof vests.

    By 2015, shootings are likely to surpass car crashes as one of the leading causes of non-medical deaths in the U.S., Bloomberg News reports.

    Traffic deaths have dropped 22% since 2005, while shooting deaths — including suicides and accidents — have crept up from historic lows a decade ago, the numbers show.

    In 2010, 31,328 people died by killer weapons, up from 28,393 in 2000. And in three years, Centers for Disease Control numbers forecast nearly 33,000 shooting deaths, compared to 32,000 traffic deaths, the report said.

    This proves seat belt mandates and safety laws have made driving safer than ever, experts said, while lax gun control laws may have contributed to a bump in shooting deaths.

  210. Guns: Dangerous, Especially for Suicide, and Costly for America
    February 2010

    Gun ownership is common in America. People report that they need them for safety and/or sport. However, having a firearm in the home actually increases the rate for suicide, homicide, domestic violence, and accidents. The presumed security is questioned, especially since owner and family suicide vastly outnumbers self-protective events. Gun-related suicide in America accounts for most of the violent death occurrences. This high suicide rate is shockingly under appreciated. The deaths, injuries, and disabilities significantly escalate healthcare costs, insurance premiums, criminal justice system expenses, and taxes. Nevertheless, regulation of firearms has neither been popular with the public nor legislatures; perhaps the degree of carnage might now kindle discussion about the way we control these weapons.

    The Second Amendment to the Constitution states that, “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” Despite current gun regulations, firearms can be bought at gun shows or privately from unlicensed dealers with no background checks.

    In 2005, out of a total of 541 firearm-related deaths in Kentucky, 375 were gun-shot suicides (69%), homicides accounted for 143, accidents claimed 11, nine died in police shootings, and three fatalities were unspecified.1 During 2006 and 2007, again, approximately 70 percent of gun-shot deaths were suicides.1 Most Americans are unaware that gun-shot suicide occurs much more often than all other shooting deaths combined. Suicide by gun fire is the fastest growing and most common means of suicide regardless of age, gender, race, or educational level. It is the leading cause of death in those who purchase firearms for the first time.2 Despite being obtained for personal security, 83 percent of gun fatalities in a home are suicide.3 Among 395 shooting deaths in Seattle during one year, 333 were by suicide, 41 were domestic violence incidents, 12 were accidents, and only nine involved an intruder.3 Women commit suicide three times as often when firearms are present in a home than in domiciles without them.4 Despite mental illness being an important factor, most suicide attempts are impulsive and done under stress, when upset and/or intoxicated, but without psychopathology. Awareness about the frequency of such unplanned acts is limited. Having firearms readily available increases the lethality of such impulsivity.

    Guns are the most frequently used means involved in deaths by domestic violence, increasing the rate of killing an intimate partner. Five times as many women are shot to death in homes where such weaponry is available in contrast to households without them.4 Family member homicide is much more likely than stopping a trespasser. Sadly, many American children are shot to death every day.

    Gun violence has a negative impact on society. Beyond death and disability, survivors of a shooting endure psychological trauma and grief. Violence-exposed children experience developmental consequences and adults also evidence personal compromise. Living in communities where fear of getting shot is common has detrimental effects on people and teaches inappropriate role modeling about responsible behavior to future generations.

    Hospitals, trauma centers, and rehabilitation or nursing home facilities are flooded with victims of shootings. Acute healthcare expenditures for injured individuals are enormous and most of these patients are uninsured. The economic impact extends well beyond emergency treatment and continues with chronic dysfunction, rehabilitation, and long-term disability. Medical expense outlays increase for everyone, covered largely by government and ultimately affecting tax-payers. These costs inflate the price of medical, disability, and life insurance; escalating premiums are paid by companies, governments, and private individuals. Acute care medical bills for gun violence in the United States reportedly is over $4 billion per year, and it exceeds $100 billion annually, when including follow up and long-term care.5 A serious attempt to reduce healthcare costs, would include consideration at limiting gun usage.

    Firearm use also adds to the expenses of police work, court prosecutions, legal involvements, and incarcerations, again borne by tax-payers. Loss of productivity, disability payments, and emotional or physical dysfunction all add to the cost. Guns are so much a part of our culture, that Americans have become accustomed to the resulting bloodshed and huge expenses.

    Firearms have a negative impact on our society, both emotionally and physically. They heighten expenditures for us all in taxes and insurance premiums, but gun regulation still remains socially and politically controversial.

    Americans can make choices. We should decide whether to accept our current status or whether a reassessment of our gun-regulation system is a potential legal alternative.

    With regards,
    Rupinder Johal, MD
    Steven Lippmann, MD
    University of Louisville School of Medicine, Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences

    William Smock, MD
    Cynthia Gosney, RN
    University of Louisville School of Medicine, Department of Emergency Medicine

  211. Mespo, thanks for the reassurance, but naw. You’re in Virginia. The Commonwealth is blocked from my brilliant ideas; it deserves it. There is a negative force field all around the Commonwealth and my thought-rays do not go there. When I have my own country Virginia will be forcibly seceeded from the union. Don’t worry though, you can apply for immigration if you sign a pledge. :evil:

  212. War occurs because people see war – killing as the answer. When you have people thinking killing is the ansewr there will be I wail get a bigger gun mentality with each side trying to our do the other side. That is evil for evil. Jesus is not in it. .Don’t have Jesus in it have lost souls to be in the devils jail to await final judgment. When people see jesus in people tyhey will be like Jesus is. What have we shown people? How the devil is.
    People thinking that the police is our savor will end in maretial law. We are already in a police state. Next step will be tanks on main street firing live ammunition.

  213. War occurs because people see war – killing as the answer. When you have people thinking killing is the answer there will be I wail get a bigger gun mentality with each side trying to our do the other side. That is evil for evil. Jesus is not in it. .Don’t have Jesus in it have lost souls to be in the devils jail to await final judgment. When people see Jesus in people they will be like Jesus is. What have we shown people? How the devil is.
    People thinking that the police is our savor will end in martial law. We are already in a police state. Next step will be tanks on main street firing live ammunition.

  214. War occurs because people see war – killing as the answer. When you have people thinking killing is the answer there will be I wail get a bigger gun mentality with each side trying to our do the other side. That is evil for evil. Jesus is not in it. .Don’t have Jesus in it have lost souls to be in the devils jail to await final judgment. When people see Jesus in people they will be like Jesus is. What have we shown people? How the devil is.
    People thinking that the police are our savors will end in martial law. We are already in a police state. Next step will be tanks on main street firing live ammunition.

  215. OK so now the NRA wants an armed guard in every school. OK, then they need to pay for that. Gun-owners too. You have a car, you have to keep paying fees for it, year after year. The fees go towards the DMV, and there’s so much regulation that you can be deprived of your car at any time. Leave it in the wrong place; car gets taken. A light is out; get a ticket. Operate it wrong; pay a fee and maybe lose your right to use it. Test it, pay registration, pay insurance.

    Just do that with guns. The money generated can be used to pay for armed guards at schools. If we want to turn the country into a big military based or a big armed camp, we can do that. We can show our kids that they need a uniformed, armed guard at the door to their school because otherwise somebody will shoot them. We can make our country the equivalent to a settlement on the West Bank, everybody looking at everybody else with suspicion and fear, gunshots every night, a big “inner city” so we can keep people safe. Let the NRA and the gun-owners pay for that, though. Because the retirees and working moms with three kids don’t have enough extra in their budgets to pay that armed guard and if you don’t pay him, he might get really resentful and one day shoot all the kids.

  216. Wrong… If all may derive a benefit, then all should pay. That’s what taxes are for. Doubt that NRA members are the ones committing these mass murders. Maybe some; as Mrs. Junctionshamus uses aversion therapy on me when I use terms such as “always” and “never”.

    I wouldn’t mind paying a reasonably capped (no pun intended) tax as a gun owner for this, but would object to footing the entire bill.

    Absurdly, kids whose parents would pay under your system should be ID’d as such, and be priority #1 for protection. I don’t think that’s what you had mind. Neither have I, but there are some who would make this argument.

    Our local district has a school resource officer program with the LE agencies where the schools are located. While not in every school, middle and high schools are covered on a random basis.

  217. “If all may derive a benefit, then all should pay.” Wrong. I am pointing out that all do NOT derive a benefit from the unregulated gun ownership that we presently have. The level of “regulation” of gun ownership is such that all are, in fact, deriving a detriment. In order to allow SOME to derive the benefit of the gun ownership, those SOME should foot the bill for remedying the DETRIMENT that the all are suffering. Gun ownership is making kids unsafe at school? OK, then, have gun owners take care of that by providing safety measures to the kids at school. Gun ownership is making kids who buy skittles unsafe on the way to the store or back? OK, then, have gun owners take care of that by providing armed escorts for people when they want to go buy skittles. It’s not rocket science.

    AND it is not workable. That was my point. You cannot decrease a threat that is not quantifiable to start with because it is fueled by factors such as any old half-crazed (for reasons best known to himself, perhaps) person being able to get ahold of assault weapons and bullets in magazines that emit 100 of them in a spray of death that cannot be imagined. Even as LaPierre was giving his stupid speech, as if to prove him wrong and silly, some half-crazed gunman was mowing down victims willy nilly in Pennsylvania in an area where you could NOT have an armed guard waiting. And was Fort Hood not an armed camp? Hasan killed 13 people there in spite of the military base being in control of enormous amounts of guns and bullets and people trained to use them.

    More mess is not the answer. There may BE no answer, but more mess is certainly not the answer. Less mess might give us a little movement in the right direction. We have yet to find out about that.

  218. I must say this ,A gun does not save. Police do not save. Jesus in your soul saves to be like he is who does not retaliate not giving evil for evil thinking a weapon is a good thing. Had Jesus used a weapon to kill or even want to kill Satan would have claimed his soul when the flesh, and blood body of Jesus died. To die for Christs sake is gain, but to kill is to loss your soul. Religions don’t teach that. Don’t let the devil get souls to be in his jail to face a final end in Gods light which to evil is hell.

  219. Malisha – Your arguments are a non-sequitur. You’re blaming the acts of a miniscule portion of the population on a very large number of people. 300M persons in the US, 300M firearms in the control of the public and only several thousand incidents a year. One is one too many, but its the United States, not the Utopian States of America.

    Go back to your statement and add the word “responsible” before the phrase “gun ownership,” and see if it makes any sense.

    Far from what you may think, Ft. Hood, which was once called, “the largest concentration of firepower in the Western World, is like any military facility, and restricts access to weapons and ammunition to cantonment and training areas. Interestingly enough, this prohibition was particularly enforced in medical treatment areas. Hassan might plead insanity, but his mission was a jihad, so, in my opinion, his situationd doesn’t meet the criteria of other mass-killing scenarios.

    To support your argument is to say that since I’ve never had children, I shouldn’t be required to pay that portion of my property taxes that pay for schools. If you have a large number of children, you should be bearing a greater cost. Doesn’t work that way. We all pay for police/fire/EMS, which are governmental leeches, until what? Stuff happens, that’s what.

    In closing, many urban school districts already have officers/guards in place. Why? To prevent student-on-student violence. It’s my understanding that approximately 450 students have been killed in the Detroit (which has very restrictive anti-gun laws) school system in 2012. If this is so, where’s the outcry?

  220. JunctionShamus,

    Do much cherry picking?

    You say: 300 Mega persons and 300 mega guns. What PERCENT own guns. Education is a common resource, agreed many years ago.
    Private gun ownership under constitutional protection is a Sct justice miscarriage. Even childless houseowners, screaming about school bonds and property taxes, benefit from having educated children who will care for them later in their dotage.

    But your gun ownership and its contribution to a dangerous society should pay for the extra costs of guards and mental illness contributed by this love of solving issues with weapons. And then some of your tax burden should be used in preventing this sickness spreading. Just as we do for alcohol and tobacco.
    And both persist in their evil production of sick people, without footing the bill for all the costs they burden the society with.

    How would you like the UK system? Not much I believe. You did read Zwick’s listing of them. I think that I have a copy left which I can post for edification and education.

    Where do you keep your guns for safekeeping? Do you sleep with one loaded and cocked beside the bed? Just teasing. ;-)

  221. BTW, we lose the equivalent of a small village to gun deaths every year.
    The UK per capita loses one thirtieth of that.
    And as projections show, gun deaths will go on cars death in a couple of years. No we can’t ban guns or cars but we can regulate their use, availability, cost bearing and education and control. Those are your costs to bear.

    Merry holidays. No irony.

  222. It doesn’t matter that only a small number of people commit massive front-page-above-the-fold mass murders with high-powered superguns. That doesn’t matter at all, in fact. And I don’t need to prove that large numbers of them do, and I don’t need to prove that only parents should pay school tax. The question is whether the society moves in a direction to disarm or moves in a direction to over-arm. When Japan was defeated in WWII one of the requirements of the agreement was disarmament. Our country is in a situation right now where law enforcement is often acting against a small minority of people who are armed to the teeth with weaponry that nobody needs to either hunt or maintain self-defense. Starting to get some control over that, and starting to move the whole country in the direction of domestic disarmament is a good idea whose time has come.

    Furthermore, look at what FOrt Hood taught us: it taught us that not even our military can protect itself from armed individuals who have gotten into some kind of emotional hostility disturbance and who are well armed. If 13 of our military personnel were killed in a foreign country because of the rash acts of a single gunman who had a mental illness and was inspired by some violent rhetoric, would we think, “oh well what we need is better self-defense” or would we want that other country to disarm their lunatics more efficiently?

  223. Don’t mean to be condescending; but like with nukes – Who’s going to disarm first. And that just covers the defense perspective. Says nothing to the issues of shooting as a sport, hunting or other reasons why people may choose to own ANY legal weapon.

    I’m working from a Kindle and I don’t have the necessary “thumb power” to address a response to some valid points of view. Later on.

    PS I707 – No, two. It’s a tough ‘hood. :-)

  224. National Shooting Sports Foundation, Newtown Gun Lobby, Keeps Military-Style Guns Legal
    Posted: 12/22/2012

    NEWTOWN, Conn. — Three miles from Sandy Hook Elementary School, a white Colonial-style building stands about 50 feet back from the road, an unassuming presence in a town that never got much attention until now. On a recent day, a security guard got out of a parked car at the end of the driveway and said he’d received instructions to turn away anyone who didn’t work in the building. It wasn’t hard to see why his employers might have hired him. In what appears to be a bizarre coincidence, the people working inside were among the country’s most adamant champions of the kinds of weapons and ammunition that Adam Lanza used to kill 26 children and adults just down the road last week.

    The Newtown-based National Shooting Sports Foundation, or NSSF, is the nation’s premier gun manufacturers trade association, and in recent years the group has concentrated on marketing military-style assault weapons of the kind used by Lanza, James Holmes and other mass murderers. In the last decade, as the national interest in hunting has declined, gun manufacturers have increasingly relied on the sale of high-powered rifles, capable of killing many people in seconds. Behind the scenes, the NSSF has done much of the work of pitching those products to politicians, the media and gun buyers.

    Doug Painter, a former NSSF president, delivered a pitch characteristic of the NSSF’s folksy approach in a video released by the group in 2009, a year when many gun-owners were worried that the newly Democratic White House would try to take away their weapons.

    Holding up the same kind of rifle that Adam Lanza would eventually use to commit mass murder, Painter asked the camera, “Am I gonna trade in Ol’ Betsy for one of these?” He answered himself, “Maybe not. But there’s a more important point to consider. Anti-gun folks insist on labeling these rifles as ‘bad guns,’ as opposed to more traditional-looking ‘good guns.’ How can any inanimate object be considered ‘good’ or ‘bad’?”

  225. AY,

    Do you believe that we have a Sinterklaus here sponsored by CocaCola???
    Who told you that? Or are you trying to prevent a comment from this end? :-)
    We don”t even have any sort of fat man who delivers the presents. Only something called Tomten, a non-human dwarf-like being, who uses a large goat to bear his bags. Coca-cola is not a popular Yule drink. That will be glogg, sockerdrycke, eller Apotekarn’s own with no alcohol. But the little nubbe of vodka, spiced or not, will not be far from hand.

    Mark Esposito,
    Glad whatever you are celebrating. And for the legend.
    It at least exhibits a rich bishop giving at least a part to the needy.
    Something missing in America.

    Saint Nicholaus fame confirms by its strength how rare such a deed was and is today.

  226. JunctionShamus,

    LOL. Hope you have a dog who sleeps lightly too.

    Condescending is the least of the weapons used here. Ne’mind that.

    Who disarms first. They are solving that too, but collecting id’s of all who are active gunners and use any form of public communications. Gun club members, hunting clubs, fishing clubs (for particular watching of those members) Etc..

    You have heard of the new surveilance mandate to create dossiers on ALL Americans, including innocuous info/data which in future determination may help in crime prediction. investigation, and prosecution.
    When they have XX percent gun owners defined, owners will be called by mail to fill in the blanks on the paper or on-line. Possession will not be a crime, but denying ownership will be. Or failing to file. You will also to declare if your guns are registered anywhere, and asked to provide a reason/purpose for each and every one of them, etc.
    You will be required to bind yourself to being informed on future regulations and lawful decisions on threat of being declared a terrorist!!!!!

    Then draconian federal laws will restrict gun purchases and and transfers.
    And then your ownership will be forfeited a baseless in cause, and your guns confiscated with a generous recompense in response to the need of public safety.

    A plan is waiting now to be used. Otherwise, we are being led by fools, and that I don’t believe.

    Don’t you believe it? I suspect it will be so. Why else the complete surveillance and recording of all your transactions that can be done? Even what you buy and draw your card for at a shop will become centralized data for examination.

    Warmest Happy Holidays, Keep on packin’!

  227. You do not know Jesus who is the Lord God.
    One cares about this world, The other about the world to come. One cares about the physical things that wear out, and break. The other cares about us with things that are eternal. You are walking in the dark not knowing where you are going.

  228. I707 – One step beyond the Vulcan mind-meld, to the Obama anal-probe… And for anyone who thinks the “gub’ment” doesn’t have a central file on gun purchases, you’re just deluding yourself. It’s tracked from the factory to first buyer, and sometimes beyond. All it takes is the risk to become a straw purchaser, then a victim on a firearms theft report (serial numbers not recalled) for a pistol or rifle to disappear into the ether.

  229. I keep telling people that a fire arm is used because they think it is power. Piercing a person is perceived by the piercer to think they have power capable of piercing whoever. The devil through people pierced Jesus. A gun has bullets that pierce the body. Therefore whoever uses a gun to pierce a person is being influenced by the devil to use that weapon thinking it is power. The police, and military maintain that illusion of power in weapons that kill. Whoever Kills is the servant of death who is the devil. Continue to perpetuate the perverted concept of power will ensure that what is seen will be seen over, and over again. Police solidify that perverted sense of power in the human mind. They are not the answer.

  230. But I didn’t say “disarm,” I said “begin to disarm.”

    A machine gun won’t save us from a tyrannical government action any more than a hand gun will save us from a lunatic with a machine gun. We will never be a “demilitarized zone” but we should try to bring down the temperature a bit as soon as possible. Remember, when things get worse in the society (when people don’t have enough, are angrier, are more anxious, feel more put upon), the “easy violence” rises. Since the “easy violence” of beating the wife has been made more difficult, and since some shooters don’t even have wives, we can expect more and more violence as we get into tougher and tougher straits as a society. But don’t we need to take the opportunity to at least cast a disapproving glance at it?

  231. I own 5 guns and have never shot anyone with them. Almost everyone I know owns at least one gun and I don’t know anyone who has shot anybody. Each gun I own has a specific and unique purpose for hunting or sport. That is the reason I, and most gun owners, have so many guns. 99.9999% of gun owners are responsible, good and honest people, who should not be turned into criminals because of a few bad apples. If you’re going to ban guns to stop people from dying, why stop there? There are stabbings every day. Why don’t we ban knives while we are at it? Thousands of people die in car accidents each year. We should make it a law that everybody has to ride bicycles everywhere. Banning things do not work. Drugs are illegal but I could walk around downtown and see 5 people who are high on crack. Automatic are illegal, yet gang members have uzis and are killing with them. The bad guys will always find a way to get what they want. Why would you want to take the guns away from the good guys and make the only people with guns the ones who want to do harm. America doesn’t have a gun problem. America has an idiot problem. Maybe we should focus on trying to fix that first.

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