Cleveland Police Under Investigation After Unarmed Couple Killed In Hail Of 140 Bullets

196px-ClevelandpdPolice are investigating a bizarre case of police panic where 115 police officers may have been involved in a car chase and mass shooting incident where two unarmed individuals were killed in a hail of 140 bullets in Cleveland. Police reports contained erroneous or false information on the scene that led to the deaths.


The car chase in November involved two individuals in a 1979 Chevrolet Malibu. Officers David Siefer and James Hummel were following the Malibu when they reported over the radio that they thought they saw the passenger turn in her seat, get onto her knees and extend both arms toward the rear window as if she was holding a gun. Siefer yelled “He’s pointing the gun. He’s pointing the gun out the back window. Heads up. Heads up. Passenger is pointing a gun out the back window. Everybody be careful.” Siefer later admitted that he never saw a gun.

After the chase, the car eventually pulled into a middle school parking lot. The first shots were reportedly fired by Officer Wilfredo Diaz. He was also the first to the car and found Malissa Williams and Timothy Russell, 43, dead . . . and unarmed. They were found to have drugs in their systems.

The city believes that 115 officers were involved in the either the chase or the shooting or both — that is one-third of the officers on duty that night. Some 13 officers fired their weapons despite that fact that no one had shot at the officers. Officer Michael Brelo reported that he saw “the suspects moving and I could not understand why they are still moving, shooting at us. Even through Iraq, I never fired my weapon. I never have been so afraid in my life.”

Some officers assumed that the firing had started from the car while others thought they saw an officer hit or a report of shots fired.

Police frantically searched for a gun, including bringing in a dive team and search crews along the roads. While there are gunpowder residue in the car and on the two suspects, the large amount of rounds fired into the car could easily explain that positive reading.

A police mechanic also found that the car was in a condition that could easily have produced a backfire sound from the engine.

Source: Cleveland

Kudos: Michael Blott

101 thoughts on “Cleveland Police Under Investigation After Unarmed Couple Killed In Hail Of 140 Bullets

  1. Even highly trained cops can completely lose it when the stinky hits the whirly. Yet we are to believe we will all be a lot safer once everyone is armed all the time.

    Who knows what caused this mass hysteria? I am sure LEOs have experience with pursuit and rules and regulations that would not have everyone show up & a dozen or so start shooting, but once it started there was no way it would end well. With that sort of breakdown it is stunning that officers were not hit with friendly fire or that bystanders were not injured. We need to think a lot more about how we select, train, equip and treat police officers; this bunch obviously needs help. This should never happen.

  2. Iraq “veterans”, nothing to do that night, face a gun, WOW.
    Not sure if this was not a “dry run” like they had recently in Miami which we saw the video, The coop test between the cops and the military.

    Of course it may have been planned as a “suppression” move long in advance, waiting for the right time to catch the police squads off guard.
    You know, one car can contain a whole revolution. So you give a message to John Doe while testing your troops readiness and state of training.

    Comments, Blouise?

  3. Frankly,

    Thanks for your measured reply. But it may not address the root of this issue.
    Read mine, which I think is closer. It reads like a synopsis of a B-grade chase movie. We don’t get to meet either Bonnie or Clyde this time.

  4. “Siefer yelled ‘He’s pointing the gun. He’s pointing the gun out the back window. Heads up. Heads up. Passenger is pointing a gun out the back window. Everybody be careful.’ Siefer later admitted that he never saw a gun.”

    Therein lies the problem.

  5. 707 – occams razor.
    If they need to drill there are plenty of ways to do that that would not draw so much attention to themselves. Lose of control makes much more sense.

    Gene – it is possible at the time under the stress he did think he saw a gun & later realize that he had not. Or he might have wanted to jack up the situation for attention or to bring more help. His words certainly set the table for what happened and he deserves a lot of attention for them but I bet nobody followed proper procedure, that they all had been trained in, when they got to that parking lot. By providing the suggestion there was a gun I’m sure he induced a lot of others to ‘see’ one when they got there. There were plenty of breakdowns that need to be examined.

  6. “There were plenty of breakdowns that need to be examined.”

    And I don’t disagree with that, however and as you recognize, whether by intentional lie or mistake, the root of the causation for the panic rests in reporting a situation that did not exist. Regardless of intent, I also think this shows Siefer to be unfit material for LE.

  7. This was a disaster and a tradgedy. There is not really any single particular failure that lead to this but a combination of many things that went wrong, some very glaring, others that aggravated the situation.

    I can see how the woman turning around on the seat and holding her arms out is a similar gesture to someone who MIGHT be holding a gun. That is as far as it goes. These types of gestures give officers only a second or two to determine if a gun is being held or not. But while the car is moving, it is not as dangerous as if the officer was standing five feet away. This is something that should have been verified or at least waited to see how it would play out.

    A lot of what I read here was CYA on behalf of some individuals. I don’t buy the emotive line that one officer said “I have never been so scared in my life”. I believe, though it is only an opinion, the officer was pumping up the “feared for life” aspect to justify his shooting. And that 49 rounds were fired. That is greatly excessive. That is three 16 round 9mm magazines plus one in the chamber. (I would venture to say every bullet he had)

    The extent to which the department went to find a smoking gun here is another indication of CYA. One alleges that a backfire was made, and then how that could be interpreted as a gunshot. (a lesser defense of “well, we thought a gunshot was made, oh it was a backfire. The officer made an honest mistake given the situation) Even how they found a police mechanic to certify the car could have made a backfire.

    One of the issues that can happen in military or police shootings is that once someone starts shooting, it evokes nearly everyone else to start shooting. It becomes somewhat of a feedback loop. That is why yelling “cease fire” is necessary. That is one thing that can happen when a situation where there are too many officers on scene and it is not controlled.

    I know how close some issues can be because I have had it happen. But in this case I can say it seems to me there should have been more restraint on behalf of the officers, even though there was a report of the passenger holding a gun, because the situation was magnified by some rather systemic problems the officers brought to the situation.

  8. The Cleveland police are a ragtag, undertrained, undisciplined mob. I’ve never seen one, including detectives, wear a seat belt (same with the Cuyahoga county deputies). It takes only a few minutes of COPS to see the difference between this group and most any CA department. This incident shows how out of control they and their suburban brothers are. I don’t expect a single indictment from this.
    It was interesting to see the chief at a press conference Tuesday night. He sweated profusely, lying and covering up for his troops. I hope he doesn’t gamble any heavier than his church’s basement Bingo, ’cause he’d lose his pension in a poker game.

  9. Autopsy results showed Russell had alcohol and cocaine in his system, and Williams had marijuana and cocaine in her system.
    ==========================================================

    did anybody check the cops?

  10. I am particularly concerned about the District Attorney’s video response, attacking the system for “failing the officers” without once commenting on the unwarranted deaths of the victims. He further comments on the “miracle” that officers were not hurt. Surreal.

  11. “A lot of what I read here was CYA on behalf of some individuals. I don’t buy the emotive line that one officer said “I have never been so scared in my life”. I believe, though it is only an opinion, the officer was pumping up the “feared for life” aspect to justify his shooting. And that 49 rounds were fired. That is greatly excessive. That is three 16 round 9mm magazines plus one in the chamber. (I would venture to say every bullet he had)

    I agree. The news story also indicated that this same cop “climbed onto the trunk and then the top of a zone car and reloaded his gun, firing rounds into the Malibu.” If you’re truly scared shitless, wouldn’t you be taking cover behind a car, instead of standing on it and making yourself a much easier target?

    Also, 60 cars and 115 officers involved in the chase? That seems excessive, and perhaps contributed to the heightened sense of danger and excessive shooting.

  12. Well, at least they didn’t plant a gun in the car afterwards. Maybe the police are getting marginally better in their conduct. Now if they would stop arresting people and erasing their videos/pics, of those who film them engaging in police misconduct.

  13. FranklyI’ll go with Frankly.

    Plus, is it not time to find a good reason to take over power (and the oil).
    Or at least use a little drone activity. We got’em in Eritrea, Ethiopia, and Djibouti (allegedly). Of course we will deny the attacks and blame internal Saudi rebels who blow up mosques and desert mansions. Ho ho Princes and Saudi clerical debauchers.

  14. Scratch the above. Pushing the wrong buttons.

    Lost my post too. Skit.

    In short don’t believe Occam’s razor solves this extent and frequency of the occurences and geo spread.

    Same to GeneH,

    Blaming it on one guy is too pat and easy to say. But how come there are so many such incidents. I still suspect your for being a CIA disinfo man. Just like EBSB is an FBI entrapment tool. Hee hee. You write “good” so disinfo way.

  15. Imagine the sequelae if numerous teachers are armed in our schools and someone thinks he heard a gunshot or saw a stranger with a gun.

  16. PSZ,

    Right you are.

    I was first going to point out that these “veterans” LEO were probably suffering from PTSD.
    Then realized that the teachers are most likely also PTSD-ridden.
    From school administrators and the kids. Too much for any person to take.

    Do you and others realize that teachers are the only profession that is still doing their work as was done a century ago. And modern teachers aids are seldom that. Neither to the teacher or to the students. But some kids DO have access the school owned porno blocked (hacked) PCs.

  17. How is it a miracle that the officers were not hurt when the people they killed were unarmed? It would have been pretty hard to hurt them? What would have hurt them, blood spatter?

  18. id707,

    There’s plenty of blame to go around. Blame is not the equivalent of causation. Penny pinching and shoddy construction are to blame for the sinking of the Titanic. Weak welds and poor riveting practice are the causation. All the cops involved are to blame here. Siefer’s lie (intentional or unintentional) is the causation of their panic which led to two deaths.

  19. The question was asked were any of the officers checked for drugs. Have you ever noticed the transformations young men go through when they join police forces. Their necks bulk up and they begin to look like wrestlers. Steroids my friends that is what it looks like. Roid rage is a fearsome state. Firing weapons while only steroids would cause a real ramp up of that rage! All officers should be tested on a regular bases and twice at shootings or other violent incidents.

  20. This demonstrate once again – that our armed public servants pose a far greater threat to the public, than the criminals they were hired to apprehend. I would happily disband all police (except for the sheriff), and rely on myself for persona protection.

  21. Whee! The stuff that gets uttered here.

    GeneH……..
    Siefer for fall guy? Nope, the allocation of resources is the fall guy, So many cops to stop a chase? And although causation has not been proved, we do know that there was a Project Mockingbird, etc.
    I maintain my suspicion. You know a freeway chase or through the streets is highly energizing and disposes to hallucinations which combat experience or too many TV chases will magnify. The attempts to fit reality under the limits of logic is sad to see in these modern times. We have come closer now than all the Greek philosophisers combined. And legalese in court is just such an attempt—-at least partly so.

    Justice Holms.
    I’ll buy that! Do the Iraq and Afghan vets get their doses free of charge (in war zone) or does the VA provide it now? My wild ideas?
    Always choose the opposite to Occam’s razor. and double down—-you’ll end up closer to the real cause. This is a complex large society. Big interlocking systems are in place.

    Vigilant,
    Wild West at the schools and shopping malls? Go back to pre-historic times. Even Nebuchanezer had “police” and weapons were checked at the Astarte gate. Whose drum are you beating and how much are you paid?
    I am not sure that your are a living person——a computer program will do.

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm

  22. I can give two very compelling IMHO, examples where hidden motives may have lain behind the events themselves, but will be very difficult to disclose.

    One—–the death of Prime Minister Olof Palme, where among other points, the debate rages even today on whether he was an agent of the CIA or of the KGB. The investigation group has worked over 25 years and is still active. It makes for good film treatment just recently. Self-centerness by Sweden? Perhaps.

    Two—–the loss of the international ferryboat Estonia, where 800 lives were lost. The international commission gave a mechanical cause combined with human error. For reasons of safeguarding evidence the site where the boat lies is off limits to all unauthorized investigators. The conspiratorial theories will be left aside for the moment.

    Sweden as a center of neutrality is of course problematical.
    Its own courts were forced by international justice instances to provide restitution in the 7 cipher class to two persons rendered by CIA and empowered by minister level decision. These were tortured in Egypt.

    Whether Sweden plays both sides, or just as I believe (from the evidence by others) has been a USA lackey and object of USA protection since 1939 if not earlier. By earlier, I mean of course the interests of business here in not letting the 1917 revolution endangering business as usual.

  23. Palme death=murder/assassination. By revolver at point blank range. Witness: his wife, his guards were told to stand down that evening as he was going to the film theater. The convenient perp was given as a known alcoholic of violent temperament who used only knives. The weapon never recovered. The leading comments by the police showing the lineup made the case be disapproved and the alcoholic was released. But the evidence (her testimony) was dead and could not be revived even under our system of double jeopardy.

    Palme? The PM who marched in a torchlight parade with the foreign minister of North Vietnam. USA called home its ambassador for at least 2 years.

    Two years college education in USA at elite college. Ardent class traitor and socialist A virulent debater when necessary in internal politics.
    Could have become a new Dag Hammarsköld, the Swedish UN Sec Gen who was most effective and was assassinated in the Congo.

    The view from your end? Dunno!

  24. Palme of course completed his education here in Sweden. He was probably recruited at the USA college. He was a class traitor even then. His family owned multum, and he went to the best prep school which specializes in penalism by students of non-conformers.
    Nowadays, a case pops up every year, where the student is unwilling to endure the system and willing to becoming a PNG in proper society.

    Palme’s political career. A rocket, as calf and crutch to the then PM.
    He was at the side of the PM on most occasions, light minister posts gave time over to serve the PM. The battle for PM post is a blank in my recall. But there, there was but one sun shining on the socialist side.

  25. Congratulations folks.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Congress to See Memo Backing Drone Attacks on Americans

    By MICHAEL D. SHEAR and SCOTT SHANE

    The White House’s order to release classified documents came two days after 11 senators joined a growing chorus seeking information about the justification for targeted killings, especially of United States citizens.

    NYTimes top headline per email advice today..

  26. Artie,

    Does every sperm have a soul? They are a product of god accdg to you and other deluded people. I taunt as I know it won’t hurt you. A duck’s back does not get wet in the downpour of truth.

  27. Well, you have to die one day. Why not check out now and then you don’t have to see the end of the AGE. See you all on the other side were there are not guns… just the Kake of Fire.

  28. Unfortunately, the police are trained to empty their guns into suspects. There is very little restraint exhibited once the shooting begins, from so many accounts we see, and I am convinced there is a policy, even if unwritten, that once the firing begins, a dead suspect is considered better than a wounded one, whether a shooting is a mistake or of a dangerous armed lunatic. The story is easier to tell when there is no one to testify to the contrary. Unfortunately, it is hard to come to a generally different conclusion, though there are exceptions.

  29. GeneH,

    No, I am talking causation. As you said there is blame a plenty to share.

    See my rebuttal already posted. (bad grammar, det skiter jag i).

    Reductio ad absurdum =fruitless activity.
    (i know it is adsurdum, but i prefer my mistake).

    Scaling off the overview to find a root cause is ridiculous IMHO when dealing with complex systems. And we are doing that, are we not?

    Even grading the different “causes” is ridiculous, and again shows the inability of logic as practiced by the Greeks to handle reality—-a non-linear system.

    Of course the pols try their best to steer the system. But nature won’t be steered nor wll it negotiate either, nor can it be corrupted. Jävlar!

  30. A police riot is a good word for what happened here. I think the original officer who claimed to have seen a weapon did initiate the madness, but he had a lot of willing comrades. Training will help, but this mentality of covering their own asses when a bad cop or a wrong cop does something wrong has to change.

  31. Meanwhile, in LA:

    L.A. County Sheriff’s Department intends to fire seven deputies

    The seven belong to a secret law enforcement clique that allegedly celebrated shootings and branded members with matching tattoos.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jump-out-boys-20130207,0,7728636.story

    By Robert Faturechi, Los Angeles Times

    February 6, 2013, 7:41 p.m.

    Seven Los Angeles County sheriff’s deputies have been notified that the department intends to fire them for belonging to a secret law enforcement clique that allegedly celebrated shootings and branded its members with matching tattoos, officials said.

    The Times reported last year about the existence of the clique, dubbed the Jump Out Boys, and the discovery of a pamphlet that described the group’s creed, which required aggressive policing and awarded tattoo modifications for police shootings.

    The seven worked on an elite gang-enforcement team that patrols neighborhoods where violence is high. The team makes a priority of taking guns off the street, officials said.

    The Sheriff’s Department has a long history of secret cliques with members of the groups having reached high-ranking positions within the agency. Sheriff officials have sought to crack down on the groups, fearing that they tarnished the department’s reputation and encouraged unethical conduct.

    In the case of the Jump Out Boys, sheriff’s investigators did not uncover any criminal behavior. But, sources said, the group clashed with department policies and image.

    Their tattoos, for instance, depicted an oversize skull with a wide, toothy grimace and glowing red eyes. A bandanna with the unit’s acronym is wrapped around the skull. A bony hand clasps a revolver. Smoke would be tattooed over the gun’s barrel for members who were involved in at least one shooting, officials said.

    One member, who spoke to The Times and requested anonymity, said the group promoted only hard work and bravery. He dismissed concerns about the group’s tattoo, noting that deputies throughout the department get matching tattoos. He said there was nothing sinister about their creed or conduct. The deputy, who was notified of the department’s intent to terminate him, read The Times several passages from the pamphlet, which he said supported proactive policing.

    “We are alpha dogs who think and act like the wolf, but never become the wolf,” one passage stated, comparing criminals to wolves. Another passage stated, “We are not afraid to get our hands dirty without any disgrace, dishonor or hesitation… sometimes (members) need to do the things they don’t want to in order to get where they want to be.”

    Department spokesman Steve Whitmore said starting the termination process shows that Sheriff Lee Baca “does not take any of this lightly and will move forward with the appropriate action.”

    Investigators were less concerned about the tattoos, and more focused on the suspected admiration they showed for officer-involved shootings, which are expected to be events of last resort. The deputy told The Times, however, that investigators reviewed their shootings and arrests and found nothing unlawful.

    “We get called a gang within the badge? It’s unfair,” he said. “People want to say you have a tattoo. So do fraternities. Go to Yale. Are they a gang?…. Boy Scouts have patches and they have mission statements, and so do we.”

    “We do not glorify shootings,” he continued. “What we do is commend and honor the shootings. I have to remember them because it can happen any time, any day. I don’t want to forget them because I’m glad I’m alive.”

    If the firings are upheld, it would be one of the largest terminations over one incident in the department’s history. In 2011, the department fired about half a dozen deputies who were also said to have formed a clique. Those deputies worked on the third floor of Men’s Central Jail and allegedly threw gang-like three-finger hand signs. They were fired after they fought two fellow deputies at an employee Christmas party and allegedly punched a female deputy in the face.

    As part of the widening federal investigation of the Sheriff’s Department, a criminal grand jury recently subpoenaed the agency for materials relating to deputy cliques, specifically citing several of the groups including the “3000 boys” and the Jump Out Boys.

    When the pamphlet revealing the existence of the Jump Out Boys was initially found, officials didn’t know if the group was real. But eventually, one member came forward and named the others, according to an official who asked for anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.

    The seven deputies can fight the department’s decision to fire them.

  32. Read the “Choir Boys”, from an earlier era, same practices seen with slightly different eyes.

    Now the Feds are investigating. They don’t like gangs who compete with their control of things, I guess. Feds uber alles.

  33. OED sez:

    blame /bleɪm/

    verb:

    feel or declare that (someone or something) is responsible for a fault or wrong: the inquiry blamed the train driver for the accident

    noun

    responsibility for a fault or wrong:

    causation /kɔːˈzeɪʃ(ə)n/, n.,

    the action of causing something:
    ___________________

    When you speak of “fall guys” you are confusing the two whether you like it or not, id707. The proximate cause of the shooting was a wrongful identification of the the suspects as being armed whether it was an intentional lie or not, regardless of the cause of that lie being a personal failure on the part of the officer or a failure in his training. It is the event sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury to be held to be the cause of that injury. Unless you use proximate cause as a stopping point of analysis, almost every analysis becomes bogged down in the problem of infinite regression.

  34. Lord, give me strength:

    “Steven Seagal will help Sheriff Joe Arpaio train his posse”

    by Marisa Gerber

    February 7, 2013, 7:00 a.m.

    America’s self-styled toughest sheriff is teaming up with an action star.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-sheriff-arpaio-steven-seagal-20130207,0,855193.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fmostviewed+%28L.A.+Times+-+Most+Viewed+Stories%29

    Steven Seagal will lead a training session about school shootings Saturday at the request of his pal Joe Arpaio — an immigration hardliner and the brazen sheriff of Arizona’s most populous county, Maricopa, which includes Phoenix.

    Seagal will train Arpaio’s volunteer “posse,” which boasts about 3,500 members and tackles an array of issues, Arpaio told the Los Angeles Times. Among other duties, they help patrol busy malls at Christmastime.

    “I said to myself, ‘Hey, let’s transition the mall patrols to the schools,” Arpaio said. “The mission is to patrol the perimeter of the schools as a prevention measure.”

    December’s massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., raised the nation’s consciousness about threats to schools. After 20 children and six adults were slain at Sandy Hook by a gunman with a semiautomatic weapon, President Obama called for tighter gun controls and the National Rifle Assn. called for putting armed guards in schools.

    On Tuesday, Maricopa deputies arrested a 16-year-old boy who was accused of threatening to shoot another student and having a loaded handgun in his possession, the sheriff’s department said in a statement. Deputies have responded to a couple other school-related gun threats in the last few weeks too, Arpaio said.

    “That triggered me,” he said. “Wait a minute, this is in our own backyard.”

    He hopes Seagal’s tutoring at an elementary school northeast of Phoenix will teach the volunteers what to do during school shootings, Arpaio said.

    One of the topics? Room-entry tactics.

    The training will be “an active type of real scenario,” he said. “That’s how you learn.”

    The posse will carry guns during the exercise, but they won’t be loaded.

    Seagal, 60, plays a tough guy on screen and has worked in law enforcement. He used to be an occasional deputy for the Jefferson Parish sheriff in Louisiana, where he also had a reality show, “Steven Seagal: Lawman.” And just last month, he was sworn in as a deputy in a rural New Mexico county that patrols a swath of the U.S.-Mexico border.

    A friend recently told Arpaio that getting help from a big-name actor like Seagal would attract more attention, the sheriff said. The octogenarian lawman laughed, he said, then responded: “The sheriff draws the attention.”

    (“Stop the world, I want to get off.)

  35. Some know what words mean and what constitutes proper analysis of causation. Some don’t. No names, don’t want to embarrass anybody.

  36. The sperm cell does not have sights on it like a gun with cross hairs with a person aiming it at the cell. One sperm cell at a time would be AW damn Missed again. That would go on for a million times before one hit the egg if ever. That is why there are so many.

  37. GeneH,

    Sorry I missed your first post in reply with OED.
    I made the second post not aiming at you at all. But your reply follows the previous track.

    Causation, A most appropriate choice. I thought you chose it in preference to CAUSE, because it has two more syllables than CAUSE.

    However we see from OED that the word is defined by pointing at itself. Causation is the action of causing. Great. One more reason to NOT use the OED.

    As for infinite regression to getting beyond the proximate cause, that is a good stopper but not relevant in real systems. Never trust mathematics unless it is proven in the physical world. Math is fun, etc. but not always relevant. Non-linearity, chaos, fractal character, the butterfly effect are popular concepts which may be significant.
    (Butterfly effect! Ridiculous—we, ie reality is not poised on the edge of chaos waiting for someone to fart in the cashout line at the grocery store. So I don’t buy only the popular concepts there. There are dissipation effects to brake any such small effects. But the complexity and couplings remain)

    Of course, farting, ours and those of other animals, may produce a greenhouse effect.
    ——————————–

    No, let me skip the non-linear system argument and go back to the causation question.

    When a system of control is established. It will be refined, improved, tuned, etc to the point that it is effective, and only backup measures are necessary in most cases. It, at times, may even be manned by those who don’t get the message (the hidden one, not the obvious rewards offered for embracing and exploiting it for own use.) Such a system is our system of injustice as practiced by the many layers of the system: from jailer, bailiff, DA, judge, etc. But the ultimate purpose remains effectively in force. Control.

    Vague pointings in the direction of our leaders is not enough.
    There are much hard data collected to be more precise in our accusations.
    And some abuse is obvious. Aaron Swartz was not the first victim.
    Nor was Lee J. Cobb as a result of not playing footsie with HUAC,
    See link:

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm

  38. “As for infinite regression to getting beyond the proximate cause, that is a good stopper but not relevant in real systems.”

    An entire profession disagrees with you. Infinite regression is a problem that has real world consequences such as “analysis paralysis” (too much information can cripple analysis as much as too little information and PC limits information by relevance) and remote causation (i.e. irrelevance – if you go far enough, the Big Bang is the source of everything). Proximate cause is the answer to those problems.

    I don’t care whether you buy it or not.

    Also, your understanding of the Butterfly Effect seems flawed. I suggest reading “Chaos” by James Gleick.

  39. GeneH,

    You are self-centered. The comment was meant for MikeS. Did not want to embarrass him with my praise. Praise can be demeaning, even if it is not intended to be so. Clarity of purpose is often obscured by its surroundings or the paucity/plenty of words.

    As for self-centered, we all are. It is built into our genes. No pun intended.

    But you, like I once did, look for snarks pointed at you, at least from me. I gave it up a long time ago. I look NOW even at your comments with no prejudices, etc.

    I am not compelled to joust with anyone now. Nor am I implying that you are either. That is solely my declaration, and I make it.

    PAX GENANUS!!! My latin is poor. Bet you love it. :-)

  40. id707,

    And you are an imbecile, but that – like your opinion of me – is meaningless. However if your comment was for Mike S then you should have addressed it to Mike S instead of being obtuse. However, none of that changes that you are a bag of hot air on the issue of causation versus blame and I’m calling you out on it.

  41. GeneH,

    We are not in sync´, but this will have to do. I dont´’t write rapidly. Slow thinking process?

    Chaos by Gleick was read many years ago. At least 20. Then it was Fractals by Benoit Humperdink, the IBM man. Genius. Sorry, I am not punning your name.

    Besides you know more than I do. That was conceded long ago.

    Denying the causation or the planned and well executed system of persecution practiced in our injustice system, is not a way out.
    Ignoring that argument is not either. But typical of yourself.

    If hit, ignore the blood and continue hammering your points.

    Well known political method. What, me worried, says Obama when challenged by 20 Senators on his power to imperially kill. ” I say we need this for our security against terrorism, as I define it”, with the aid of 200 AG lawyers, including Holder as front man who tested the waters once upon time.

    I do not recall that you lead the chase on the Aaron Swartz blog. Did you?

    I will retire now and resume after more sleep. Have a good time all.
    0430 here.

  42. GeneH,

    Now I know that I am succeeding.
    “Bag of hot air”.
    When GeneH resorts to abuse then I know I am winning.

    Explain the injustice system to me in terms of proximate and ultimate causes as opposed to a planned and practiced system of repression

    Nighty night. I guess as usual all have left this blog a long time ago.

    Self-centered is OK, and I used it to characterize you and the rest of us.

    But “imbecile” in retort by you exceeds the guidelines of the blawg, as you have reminded me many times. But I can not threaten as you can. Tant pis.

    Obtuse, Kettle vs pot. You are known as the chief one-liner here. Although there are those who would compete on that.

    Fini for now.

  43. Why . . . that was perfect gibberish not related to proximate cause or causal analysis at all. But as to ignoring causation or an argument? I’ll leave that up to you.

    The proximate cause of the shooting here was the misidentification of the suspects as armed.

    If you think otherwise? Prove it.

  44. Winning? You aren’t even making sense much less winning. As for insult? You should have thought about that before you got snarky. Remember, reciprocity is a two way street.

    Now . . .

    The proximate cause of the shooting here was the misidentification of the suspects as armed.

    If you think otherwise? Prove it.

  45. To say the police did nothing wrong is to say Jesus would do the same thing. You know Jesus would not have done what those police did. You know that Jesus does not see a gun as power.

  46. “We’re dealing with a systemic failure in the Cleveland Police Department; command failed, communications failed. The system failed. Police officers have a very difficult job. In a situation like this, they were under terrible stress. When you have an emergency like what happened that night, the system must be strong enough to override the subjective decisions of individuals who are under that extreme stress. The system has to take over and put on the brakes. Clearly officers misinterpreted facts, they failed to follow established rules, there’s no doubt about that. However, by failing to provide the adequate and necessary structure and support, the system itself failed the officers. On Nov. 29, 2012, the system failed everyone.” (Ohio Atty. General DeWine)

  47. How could a police force ever succeed at all even from the very conception not being like Jesus is who is selfless doing good to others? The fallen human mind calls force good. There is also the armed forces. Cub scouts, and Boy scouts prepare them for that idolatry. Police as they are is equal to aforementioned idolatry. Both promise that they will protect. What do they do? You can answer that.

  48. “Clearly officers misinterpreted facts, they failed to follow established rules, there’s no doubt about that.”

    Mmmm. Causation. Tasty, tasty causation.

  49. How could a police force ever succeed at all even from the very conception not being like Jesus is who is selfless doing good to others? The fallen human mind calls force good. There is also the armed forces. Cub scouts, and Boy scouts prepare them for that idolatry. Police as they are are equal to the aforementioned idolatry. Both promise that they will protect. What do they do? You can answer that.

  50. What is interesting about that statement Blouise is that it both identifies causation (human error) but also places blame (the “system”) in such a way as to avoid accountability.

  51. Gene,

    I thought you would appreciate the political skill involved. Mike DeWine lost his Senate seat to Sherrod Brown.

    He’s not a bad guy … a good Catholic in that he is anti abortion and same-sex marriage but he is also very pro gun control. However conservatives don’t trust him to follow the script and liberals don’t like his stands on gays, abortions, etc.

    But he is, first and foremost a politician, and I believe the wording of that statement proves it. Atty Generals always support the police.

  52. Hmmmmm, the word general and police. Hmmmmm, yep they would support each other. Generals support killing, police support the same activity. In spirit they are both the same seeking their own.

  53. GeneH,

    There were no snarks. They are in your head and are your problem.
    You said you are gonna “out” me. Is that code for when you abandon civility and enter abusive mode.

    I don’t do strokes for you, as when you address me it is seldom positive.
    But I don’t do snarks. Snarks are uncivil. And I strive for civility.

    Blouse,

    You won’t answer me, but you will GeneH. Your choice. Particularly when it is a pol who CYA’s the policemen who have a union, both formal and informal. No national goals hidden here, move on.
    Thus letting the responsibility remain at the local level, and accountability on the shoulders of bureaucrats who have been trained to handle these problems.

    I wonder if you and others deny the interwoven injustice system in place since HUAC days, implemented with constant tailing and terrorizing family members.

    See prevous link to Spartacus, if you do. Mockingbirds is an intro to perverting the media who complied with CIA etc leadership in their messages.

    Do you also deny the effects of the militarization on our police forces across the nation?

    There is big difference between the warrior and the police. The warrior is trained, hypertrained by real combat, to shoot anything that moves.
    How, when he beomes a police, as many do, can he control those well established reflexes with have saved his life (as he will attest) on many occassions?

  54. I gave the life of PM Olof Palme as it related to showing that simple things are complex.

    For those who would learn more about the man who espouses a variant of the Jewish ambition here in life. English with swedish subtitles here.

  55. You Tube is better: clearer sound, picture quality. No necessity to join!

    That he is apparently jewish as shown by his philosophy of life and the characatyr modelled by a campaign opponent. If so is irrelevant to most people in Sweden. Never heard a curse word used. We have all kinds in our minister posts: gays, lesbians, businessmen, pastors, etc. Jewishness is not an issue, except to the nut or rightwing monied fringe.

    I can after years here identify some prominent families and individuals. But never as a result of their being referred as such in the media. Media and philanthropic family Bonnier, also prominent publishers of books. Leif Silbersky and ???? Samuelson, the most reknown lawyers in criminal justice here, etc.

  56. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Palme

    Unbelievable but true. He became a socialist due to his time as a scholarship student in the USA. Because, as he said, he believed the American dream but wanted to realize a better version in his own country.
    =======================

    “On a scholarship, he studied at Kenyon College, Ohio 1947–1948, graduating with a B.A..[4] Inspired by radical debate in the student community, he wrote a critical essay on Friedrich Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom. Palme wrote his senior honor thesis on the United Auto Workers union, led at the time by Walter Reuther. After graduation he traveled throughout the country and eventually ended up in Detroit, where his hero Reuther agreed to an interview which lasted several hours. In later years, Palme regularly remarked during his many subsequent American visits, that the United States had made him a socialist, a remark that often has caused confusion. Within the context of his American experience, it was not that Palme was repelled by what he found in America, but rather that he was inspired by it.[5]”
    Source: Wikilink above.

  57. id707,

    Really? What do you call calling someone self-centered if not at a minimum snark? You don’t like being called an imbecile? Well I don’t like being called self-centered no matter how you couch it. You get what you give. That is the nature of the Ethic of Reciprocity.

    However, regarding the subject proper, you’re the one who decided to challenge what I said about causation versus blame. I’m going to call bullshit when I see it no matter who is saying it or how they are saying it. If that presents a problem for you? Not my problem.

    Now we are back to the original issue you had a problem with:

    The proximate cause of the shooting here was the misidentification of the suspects as armed. That is where the accountability buck should stop even if there are systemic contributing factors to the error as none of them would rise to the level of exculpatory or excuse the officer from the basics of being able to think and foresee the possible outcome of yelling “Gun!” when there isn’t one. “Siefer yelled ‘He’s pointing the gun. He’s pointing the gun out the back window. Heads up. Heads up. Passenger is pointing a gun out the back window. Everybody be careful.’ Siefer later admitted that he never saw a gun.” As a result, two people died because of either Siefer’s imagination at best and his outright lie at worst, either one of which should be sufficient to bar him from working as a LEO.

    If you think otherwise? Prove it.

  58. Blouise,

    “But he is, first and foremost a politician, and I believe the wording of that statement proves it.”

    Some friends of mine call that “dragonspeak”.

  59. GeneH,

    I shall add calling you self-centered but at the same time declaring it is a characteristic shared by myself and all other humans does not make it a snark against you personally. “Couch it” as you will, then you are now looking for boogiemen where there are none. I call it as i see it, just as you do, but I don’t call people imbeciles and hot air bags as you did me.

    As for the issue at point, there remains a factor which in spite of my challenging you, that you refuse to address. Only proximate causes are admissible by you to discussion.

    Amazing standpoint, I feel.

    It could be compared to Sandy Hook where the primary or proximate causes are still being discussed AFAIK. However the populace with support of the President are already pursuing those who use the 2nd amendment for use of guns in diverse environments etc as defined by each state. The states are using the Constitution as it was written, and I am no States Righter for that.

    However one can wonder if the real cause is a plan by Obama to widen his imperial powers to decree.

    I am reminded today of Brennan’s hearing and the following comment by an ACLU legal rep and by the intelligent questioning by the NYTimes’s journalist in a video.

    A bit OT, but is it.
    No, because it addresses what is known but which is unknown by Congress and the public. The existence of a long game plan for expanding the war against “terrorist” so as to survive the Obama time and be available as a resource to those that follow Obama.

    This felt the ACLU rep as the key, not the document written 2 years ago, of which the Senate also knows nothing about.
    If Dianne Feinstein were interested, then she and her collegues on the committee today have blocked his approval until such time as the Brennan plan is made available to them as our representatives.

    http://www.nytimes.com/video/2013/02/07/us/politics/100000002049609/brennan-interrupted-by-protesters.html?nl=us&emc=edit_cn_20130207#100000002049334

    Roll past the demonstrators and go to the ACLU rep being questioned by the NYTimes.

    This place is depopulated. See you again in another arena.

  60. “I shall add calling you self-centered but at the same time declaring it is a characteristic shared by myself and all other humans does not make it a snark against you personally.”

    I don’t think you get to define what I consider an insult.

    “Only proximate causes are admissible by you to discussion.

    Amazing standpoint, I feel.”

    Nonsense. But speaking of nonsense . . .

    “It could be compared to Sandy Hook where the primary or proximate causes are still being discussed AFAIK. However the populace with support of the President are already pursuing those who use the 2nd amendment for use of guns in diverse environments etc as defined by each state. The states are using the Constitution as it was written, and I am no States Righter for that.

    However one can wonder if the real cause is a plan by Obama to widen his imperial powers to decree.”

    Did tin foil come with that theory or do you have to furnish your own?

    You clearly have no clue as to what proximate cause is.

    There is no relation between this event, Sandy Hook, or some shadowy plan to increase the power of the unilateral Executive. None. Nada, Zip. They are totally unrelated in any meaningful manner. You’re free to try to make that connection if you like, but unfortunately for you, I’m free to point out that it is utter bullshit.

    Have a nice day.

  61. Apparently there is a shoot on sight order. Three people have been shot or shot at in cases of “mistaken identity”. In one case a man was stopped and told to turn around. While doing so, he was tboned by another cruiser that subsequently opened fire into his windshield. Fortunately, he was not hit by bullets. In another case a 71 year old woman delivering news papers was shot in the back.

  62. Strangely, the fugitive’s truck was found in the mountains burned. Before the “mistaken identity” shootings. Evidently it is open season on trucks that are not white.

  63. GeneH,

    Climbing further and futher out on that limb.

    If there is no raason to connect Obama’s actions to a secret WH plan, then why do news services indulge seriously in producing artiicles? I leave that for you to answer.

    And you deny in effect that Brennan has produced a thick document at the WH, accdg ACLU attorney, which is a guideline to future expansion, etc of imperial powers, among other things. Neither the document written in the legalese two years ago and used internally, has been released to Select Commitees.
    Nor Brennas latest “game plane” Many folks here discuss lively such possibllies.

    Fior the sake of brevity, I’ll take one item at a time.

    But I will contend that I do knpw the difference between proximate causes and remote ones. I also know that there exist extra-legal systems designed and implemented, which are at least in force since HUAC and McCarthy daysfor persecution and extracting cooperatiom from recalcitrants.
    We were discussing it recenly both in Aaron Swartz blog, and in others the problem and pain and plausible political reasons connected to DA overreach. Judges too, numerous time.

    I don’t have to prove “nothing” GeneH. Others here and elsewhere have already done it.

    And íf tiy keeping insisting that there are no plans which drive the control actions of our CIA and FBI , then keep drinking their Koolaid and selling it here.
    AND by implying connections you are breaking protocol, I would suspose.

  64. See democracynow.org.

    On the Brennan hearing for CIA chief. He got fierce opposition in the try to nominate him four years ago. But then he was still too close to his own CIA time there directly assistiing the CIA chief. He’s been 4 years in the White House running his part of the CIA show from there and being deodorarized. The committee is laughable, or maybe something to cry over as a totally ineffectual oversight organ which is stopped at every turn by the Executive stonewalling behind Nat Sec considerations.

    Our Senators have no cojones, but then they are not elected by us but by lobbyists, or private folks who want favors, and will pay for trips for the likes of Menendez, Have you forgotten him already? Hope not.

    Three persons were interviewed during the halfhour I watched. None friendly to the CIA or Brennan. One was Code Pink founder, one was former CIA analyst, and one a correspondent specializing in this area for The Nation journal.

    How can we rate this on a veracity scale, bias scale, etc.?

    Go ahead and cast some stones. I don’t mind. I’m here to be educated. not preach. Although some claim otherwise. :-)

  65. “Even the very poor have more personal freedom in an open society than a centrally planned one” (ie socialistic and government planned)
    F. A Hayek (Wikipedia ditto)
    ——————-

    Yes, the freedom to starve and to take any job which puts food and water on the table.

  66. “Food and water on the table” taken from the Alchemist by Coelho.

    The young mans view of the father’s choice to remain in his village, content with foof and water on the table, as opposed to wandering in pursuit (of oneself?) of the wider horizons beginning as a shephard on the Andulusian plains. Life enrichment can come from other sources, but is long from being guaranteed, as even the modern sailor can attest.

    Some here have maintained that we are headed for serfdom, and not of the type envisioned by Hayek

    Well, it must and has been supported here that the corporations drive an extreme form of liberalism, which will make us all serfs, says one.

    Keynesianism, with fiscal support, accdg to Wiki, was revived by Dubja and the FED to save Wall Street in 2008, when whole lifeboats were thrown at firms to big to fail. Obama continued the Republican move. And even more so, buf in the interests of votes, did a rescue mission to Detroit.
    His support for Wall Street is a given, for any Prez that wants to get elected (and perhaps avoid being deposed by assassination or CIA arranged Watergates).

  67. “If there is no raason to connect Obama’s actions to a secret WH plan, then why do news services indulge seriously in producing artiicles? I leave that for you to answer.”

    This is the Internet, you know. Not everything you read is real.

    “And you deny in effect that Brennan has produced a thick document at the WH, accdg ACLU attorney, which is a guideline to future expansion, etc of imperial powers, among other things. Neither the document written in the legalese two years ago and used internally, has been released to Select Commitees.”

    And yet you claim to know the contents of this alleged document. The document that no one has ever actually seen. I’m no fan of Brennan, but what you have is called a startling lack of evidence.

    “Fior the sake of brevity, I’ll take one item at a time.”

    Too late.

    “But I will contend that I do knpw the difference between proximate causes and remote ones.”

    No. You don’t. Proximate cause is an event sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury to be held to be the cause of that injury. This is contrasted to cause in fact which you test by the “but/for” test. But for the action, the result would not have happened. This is further contrasted with remote cause which is something that may have a tangential relation to an event, but wasn’t a direct causal factor. Let’s see those in action, both with the case at hand here and your “theory” about it being related to a Sandy Hook conspiracy and a plan to further the expanding unitary Executive.

    Proximate cause is an event sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury to be held to be the cause of that injury.

    In this instance, two people were shot to death by the police. Them being wrongly identified as armed is sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury (being murdered) to be held to be the cause of that injury. Arguably, it is the cause in fact: but for being misidentified as being armed, the two people would not have been shot to death. A remote cause is somewhere, somebody manufactured the bullets used in this shooting.

    Now let’s look at your contention that this shooting is part of a plan to expand the unitary Executive through creating events like “the Sandy Hook conspiracy”.

    These two people were shot by police after being misidentified as armed. This was local LE. They had no connection to the Federal government nor did the victims other than they are all citizens. Does the Federal government, specifically the Executive, benefit from the wrongful killing of two people out on the town and too dumb to pull over for a traffic stop? No. Do you have evidence the Federal government has a plan to expand the unitary Executive (drafted by anyone)? No – you have conjecture. Is such a plan if it is not mere conjecture sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury (which is again two being murdered based on a misidentification as being armed) to be held to be the cause of that injury? No. So a Brennan plan to expand the unitary Executive being the proximate cause of this shooting is right out. Cause in fact? Let’s try it . . . but for Brennan’s (unproven) plan to expand the unitary Executive, these people would not have been shot. Eh . . . no. Remote cause? Your “theory” – such as it is – isn’t even remotely connected to this event.

    In other words, your theory is utter unproven non-evidentiary irrational bullshit.

    “I also know that there exist extra-legal systems designed and implemented, which are at least in force since HUAC and McCarthy daysfor persecution and extracting cooperatiom from recalcitrants.
    We were discussing it recenly both in Aaron Swartz blog, and in others the problem and pain and plausible political reasons connected to DA overreach. Judges too, numerous time.”

    Gibberish. People discuss dragons and elves, it doesn’t mean they are real.

    “I don’t have to prove ‘nothing’ GeneH.”

    Yeah. You do.

    When you make extraordinary claims, you must to provide extraordinary evidence.

    But if you don’t mind looking like you’re talking out of your ass? Knock yourself out. There are plenty of people here willing to point out when you’re a pantload or peddling some harebrained conspiracy theory.

  68. Have jails, and people giving fear about this, and that calling it freedom lie through their teeth. This county was never built on freedom with people acting like it was a song. People following sharia law are in the same hypnotic trance needing to wake up.

  69. Have jails, and people giving fear about this, and that calling it freedom lie through their teeth. This county was never built on freedom with people acting like it was with a song. People following sharia law are in the same hypnotic trance needing to wake up.

  70. GeneH,

    I’ve already discounted the constraints of the courtroom as being relevant when we investigate reality, No reason to repeat.

    You stick by your courtroom and I will continue to follow my investigation of the sources provided, even those by internet—-and don’t care if you call me out here. This is not a courtroom, although some would like to believe it is.
    Too much of the real world is here in the comments and the blawgs. And is handled and discussed quite eagerly. Selecting me for outing does not impress the regulars here as before. Many encouraging signs: Longer posts, more personal anecdotes (not as court qualified evidence), courage to differ from the GeneH approved line (backed up by his dogpack), Quite encouraging actually.

    It is the greater battle outside this blawg that counts. And you don’t either, in that world. Sure, it is true that no one has produced a copy of the Brennan “game plan”, and the WH properly says that there is none, if they answer at all. And then someone leaks, hopefully, at the risk of life imprisonment (effectively).

    No more words for you, they are wasted. A molehill on the CIA “earth” can not be moved. It has its role to play. Felling high horses or breaking their legs. Fortunately some get by this trap, and reach a temporary goal of satisfaction at disclosing embarrassing faults.

    Perhaps, Seamus video clip says more than I can about causes, proximate or otherwise. Cleveland consoles itself that it is not Detroit.

    And their burning river ignites more than the surface there.

  71. I’m not talking about courtrooms. id707.

    I’m talking about reality.

    Apophenia is the behavior of seeing meaningful patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.

    Your theory is a bunch of disconnected disjunctive paranoid delusional tripe with no causal connections.

    I’m going to keep pointing that out whether you like it or not.

  72. GeneH,

    Got that one from OS I guess. You are a good tag-team.

    Sling what psycho DSM IV drivvel you will.

    It will not impair me nor even reap an answer beyond this one.

  73. Have panic will kill. increase the number of people panicking increase the chance that a soul killing action will take place. Fear losing the body; do what Jesus would not do. When will the police learn? They act just like the trolls act doing what trolls want to do in action. Police say they want to prevent an incident like what happened, but they contradict themselves. How about them apples?

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