Police are investigating a bizarre case of police panic where 115 police officers may have been involved in a car chase and mass shooting incident where two unarmed individuals were killed in a hail of 140 bullets in Cleveland. Police reports contained erroneous or false information on the scene that led to the deaths.
The car chase in November involved two individuals in a 1979 Chevrolet Malibu. Officers David Siefer and James Hummel were following the Malibu when they reported over the radio that they thought they saw the passenger turn in her seat, get onto her knees and extend both arms toward the rear window as if she was holding a gun. Siefer yelled “He’s pointing the gun. He’s pointing the gun out the back window. Heads up. Heads up. Passenger is pointing a gun out the back window. Everybody be careful.” Siefer later admitted that he never saw a gun.
After the chase, the car eventually pulled into a middle school parking lot. The first shots were reportedly fired by Officer Wilfredo Diaz. He was also the first to the car and found Malissa Williams and Timothy Russell, 43, dead . . . and unarmed. They were found to have drugs in their systems.
The city believes that 115 officers were involved in the either the chase or the shooting or both — that is one-third of the officers on duty that night. Some 13 officers fired their weapons despite that fact that no one had shot at the officers. Officer Michael Brelo reported that he saw “the suspects moving and I could not understand why they are still moving, shooting at us. Even through Iraq, I never fired my weapon. I never have been so afraid in my life.”
Some officers assumed that the firing had started from the car while others thought they saw an officer hit or a report of shots fired.
Police frantically searched for a gun, including bringing in a dive team and search crews along the roads. While there are gunpowder residue in the car and on the two suspects, the large amount of rounds fired into the car could easily explain that positive reading.
A police mechanic also found that the car was in a condition that could easily have produced a backfire sound from the engine.
Source: Cleveland
Kudos: Michael Blott
I’m not talking about courtrooms. id707.
I’m talking about reality.
Apophenia is the behavior of seeing meaningful patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
Your theory is a bunch of disconnected disjunctive paranoid delusional tripe with no causal connections.
I’m going to keep pointing that out whether you like it or not.
GeneH,
Got that one from OS I guess. You are a good tag-team.
Sling what psycho DSM IV drivvel you will.
It will not impair me nor even reap an answer beyond this one.
GeneH,
I’ve already discounted the constraints of the courtroom as being relevant when we investigate reality, No reason to repeat.
You stick by your courtroom and I will continue to follow my investigation of the sources provided, even those by internet—-and don’t care if you call me out here. This is not a courtroom, although some would like to believe it is.
Too much of the real world is here in the comments and the blawgs. And is handled and discussed quite eagerly. Selecting me for outing does not impress the regulars here as before. Many encouraging signs: Longer posts, more personal anecdotes (not as court qualified evidence), courage to differ from the GeneH approved line (backed up by his dogpack), Quite encouraging actually.
It is the greater battle outside this blawg that counts. And you don’t either, in that world. Sure, it is true that no one has produced a copy of the Brennan “game plan”, and the WH properly says that there is none, if they answer at all. And then someone leaks, hopefully, at the risk of life imprisonment (effectively).
No more words for you, they are wasted. A molehill on the CIA “earth” can not be moved. It has its role to play. Felling high horses or breaking their legs. Fortunately some get by this trap, and reach a temporary goal of satisfaction at disclosing embarrassing faults.
Perhaps, Seamus video clip says more than I can about causes, proximate or otherwise. Cleveland consoles itself that it is not Detroit.
And their burning river ignites more than the surface there.
Have jails, and people giving fear about this, and that calling it freedom lie through their teeth. This county was never built on freedom with people acting like it was with a song. People following sharia law are in the same hypnotic trance needing to wake up.
“If there is no raason to connect Obama’s actions to a secret WH plan, then why do news services indulge seriously in producing artiicles? I leave that for you to answer.”
This is the Internet, you know. Not everything you read is real.
“And you deny in effect that Brennan has produced a thick document at the WH, accdg ACLU attorney, which is a guideline to future expansion, etc of imperial powers, among other things. Neither the document written in the legalese two years ago and used internally, has been released to Select Commitees.”
And yet you claim to know the contents of this alleged document. The document that no one has ever actually seen. I’m no fan of Brennan, but what you have is called a startling lack of evidence.
“Fior the sake of brevity, I’ll take one item at a time.”
Too late.
“But I will contend that I do knpw the difference between proximate causes and remote ones.”
No. You don’t. Proximate cause is an event sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury to be held to be the cause of that injury. This is contrasted to cause in fact which you test by the “but/for” test. But for the action, the result would not have happened. This is further contrasted with remote cause which is something that may have a tangential relation to an event, but wasn’t a direct causal factor. Let’s see those in action, both with the case at hand here and your “theory” about it being related to a Sandy Hook conspiracy and a plan to further the expanding unitary Executive.
Proximate cause is an event sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury to be held to be the cause of that injury.
In this instance, two people were shot to death by the police. Them being wrongly identified as armed is sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury (being murdered) to be held to be the cause of that injury. Arguably, it is the cause in fact: but for being misidentified as being armed, the two people would not have been shot to death. A remote cause is somewhere, somebody manufactured the bullets used in this shooting.
Now let’s look at your contention that this shooting is part of a plan to expand the unitary Executive through creating events like “the Sandy Hook conspiracy”.
These two people were shot by police after being misidentified as armed. This was local LE. They had no connection to the Federal government nor did the victims other than they are all citizens. Does the Federal government, specifically the Executive, benefit from the wrongful killing of two people out on the town and too dumb to pull over for a traffic stop? No. Do you have evidence the Federal government has a plan to expand the unitary Executive (drafted by anyone)? No – you have conjecture. Is such a plan if it is not mere conjecture sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury (which is again two being murdered based on a misidentification as being armed) to be held to be the cause of that injury? No. So a Brennan plan to expand the unitary Executive being the proximate cause of this shooting is right out. Cause in fact? Let’s try it . . . but for Brennan’s (unproven) plan to expand the unitary Executive, these people would not have been shot. Eh . . . no. Remote cause? Your “theory” – such as it is – isn’t even remotely connected to this event.
In other words, your theory is utter unproven non-evidentiary irrational bullshit.
“I also know that there exist extra-legal systems designed and implemented, which are at least in force since HUAC and McCarthy daysfor persecution and extracting cooperatiom from recalcitrants.
We were discussing it recenly both in Aaron Swartz blog, and in others the problem and pain and plausible political reasons connected to DA overreach. Judges too, numerous time.”
Gibberish. People discuss dragons and elves, it doesn’t mean they are real.
“I don’t have to prove ‘nothing’ GeneH.”
Yeah. You do.
When you make extraordinary claims, you must to provide extraordinary evidence.
But if you don’t mind looking like you’re talking out of your ass? Knock yourself out. There are plenty of people here willing to point out when you’re a pantload or peddling some harebrained conspiracy theory.
“Food and water on the table” taken from the Alchemist by Coelho.
The young mans view of the father’s choice to remain in his village, content with foof and water on the table, as opposed to wandering in pursuit (of oneself?) of the wider horizons beginning as a shephard on the Andulusian plains. Life enrichment can come from other sources, but is long from being guaranteed, as even the modern sailor can attest.
Some here have maintained that we are headed for serfdom, and not of the type envisioned by Hayek
Well, it must and has been supported here that the corporations drive an extreme form of liberalism, which will make us all serfs, says one.
Keynesianism, with fiscal support, accdg to Wiki, was revived by Dubja and the FED to save Wall Street in 2008, when whole lifeboats were thrown at firms to big to fail. Obama continued the Republican move. And even more so, buf in the interests of votes, did a rescue mission to Detroit.
His support for Wall Street is a given, for any Prez that wants to get elected (and perhaps avoid being deposed by assassination or CIA arranged Watergates).
“Even the very poor have more personal freedom in an open society than a centrally planned one” (ie socialistic and government planned)
F. A Hayek (Wikipedia ditto)
——————-
Yes, the freedom to starve and to take any job which puts food and water on the table.
Have jails, and people giving fear about this, and that calling it freedom lie through their teeth. This county was never built on freedom with people acting like it was a song. People following sharia law are in the same hypnotic trance needing to wake up.
Sorry I posted in the wrong thread. The last two posts were regarding the Ex-LAPD officer that is hunting other LAPD officers as I post.
bunch of noob.
Strangely, the fugitive’s truck was found in the mountains burned. Before the “mistaken identity” shootings. Evidently it is open season on trucks that are not white.
Apparently there is a shoot on sight order. Three people have been shot or shot at in cases of “mistaken identity”. In one case a man was stopped and told to turn around. While doing so, he was tboned by another cruiser that subsequently opened fire into his windshield. Fortunately, he was not hit by bullets. In another case a 71 year old woman delivering news papers was shot in the back.
“I shall add calling you self-centered but at the same time declaring it is a characteristic shared by myself and all other humans does not make it a snark against you personally.”
I don’t think you get to define what I consider an insult.
“Only proximate causes are admissible by you to discussion.
Amazing standpoint, I feel.”
Nonsense. But speaking of nonsense . . .
“It could be compared to Sandy Hook where the primary or proximate causes are still being discussed AFAIK. However the populace with support of the President are already pursuing those who use the 2nd amendment for use of guns in diverse environments etc as defined by each state. The states are using the Constitution as it was written, and I am no States Righter for that.
However one can wonder if the real cause is a plan by Obama to widen his imperial powers to decree.”
Did tin foil come with that theory or do you have to furnish your own?
You clearly have no clue as to what proximate cause is.
There is no relation between this event, Sandy Hook, or some shadowy plan to increase the power of the unilateral Executive. None. Nada, Zip. They are totally unrelated in any meaningful manner. You’re free to try to make that connection if you like, but unfortunately for you, I’m free to point out that it is utter bullshit.
Have a nice day.
GeneH,
Climbing further and futher out on that limb.
If there is no raason to connect Obama’s actions to a secret WH plan, then why do news services indulge seriously in producing artiicles? I leave that for you to answer.
And you deny in effect that Brennan has produced a thick document at the WH, accdg ACLU attorney, which is a guideline to future expansion, etc of imperial powers, among other things. Neither the document written in the legalese two years ago and used internally, has been released to Select Commitees.
Nor Brennas latest “game plane” Many folks here discuss lively such possibllies.
Fior the sake of brevity, I’ll take one item at a time.
But I will contend that I do knpw the difference between proximate causes and remote ones. I also know that there exist extra-legal systems designed and implemented, which are at least in force since HUAC and McCarthy daysfor persecution and extracting cooperatiom from recalcitrants.
We were discussing it recenly both in Aaron Swartz blog, and in others the problem and pain and plausible political reasons connected to DA overreach. Judges too, numerous time.
I don’t have to prove “nothing” GeneH. Others here and elsewhere have already done it.
And íf tiy keeping insisting that there are no plans which drive the control actions of our CIA and FBI , then keep drinking their Koolaid and selling it here.
AND by implying connections you are breaking protocol, I would suspose.
See democracynow.org.
On the Brennan hearing for CIA chief. He got fierce opposition in the try to nominate him four years ago. But then he was still too close to his own CIA time there directly assistiing the CIA chief. He’s been 4 years in the White House running his part of the CIA show from there and being deodorarized. The committee is laughable, or maybe something to cry over as a totally ineffectual oversight organ which is stopped at every turn by the Executive stonewalling behind Nat Sec considerations.
Our Senators have no cojones, but then they are not elected by us but by lobbyists, or private folks who want favors, and will pay for trips for the likes of Menendez, Have you forgotten him already? Hope not.
Three persons were interviewed during the halfhour I watched. None friendly to the CIA or Brennan. One was Code Pink founder, one was former CIA analyst, and one a correspondent specializing in this area for The Nation journal.
How can we rate this on a veracity scale, bias scale, etc.?
Go ahead and cast some stones. I don’t mind. I’m here to be educated. not preach. Although some claim otherwise. 🙂
GeneH,
I shall add calling you self-centered but at the same time declaring it is a characteristic shared by myself and all other humans does not make it a snark against you personally. “Couch it” as you will, then you are now looking for boogiemen where there are none. I call it as i see it, just as you do, but I don’t call people imbeciles and hot air bags as you did me.
As for the issue at point, there remains a factor which in spite of my challenging you, that you refuse to address. Only proximate causes are admissible by you to discussion.
Amazing standpoint, I feel.
It could be compared to Sandy Hook where the primary or proximate causes are still being discussed AFAIK. However the populace with support of the President are already pursuing those who use the 2nd amendment for use of guns in diverse environments etc as defined by each state. The states are using the Constitution as it was written, and I am no States Righter for that.
However one can wonder if the real cause is a plan by Obama to widen his imperial powers to decree.
I am reminded today of Brennan’s hearing and the following comment by an ACLU legal rep and by the intelligent questioning by the NYTimes’s journalist in a video.
A bit OT, but is it.
No, because it addresses what is known but which is unknown by Congress and the public. The existence of a long game plan for expanding the war against “terrorist” so as to survive the Obama time and be available as a resource to those that follow Obama.
This felt the ACLU rep as the key, not the document written 2 years ago, of which the Senate also knows nothing about.
If Dianne Feinstein were interested, then she and her collegues on the committee today have blocked his approval until such time as the Brennan plan is made available to them as our representatives.
http://www.nytimes.com/video/2013/02/07/us/politics/100000002049609/brennan-interrupted-by-protesters.html?nl=us&emc=edit_cn_20130207#100000002049334
Roll past the demonstrators and go to the ACLU rep being questioned by the NYTimes.
This place is depopulated. See you again in another arena.
Blouise,
“But he is, first and foremost a politician, and I believe the wording of that statement proves it.”
Some friends of mine call that “dragonspeak”.
id707,
Really? What do you call calling someone self-centered if not at a minimum snark? You don’t like being called an imbecile? Well I don’t like being called self-centered no matter how you couch it. You get what you give. That is the nature of the Ethic of Reciprocity.
However, regarding the subject proper, you’re the one who decided to challenge what I said about causation versus blame. I’m going to call bullshit when I see it no matter who is saying it or how they are saying it. If that presents a problem for you? Not my problem.
Now we are back to the original issue you had a problem with:
The proximate cause of the shooting here was the misidentification of the suspects as armed. That is where the accountability buck should stop even if there are systemic contributing factors to the error as none of them would rise to the level of exculpatory or excuse the officer from the basics of being able to think and foresee the possible outcome of yelling “Gun!” when there isn’t one. “Siefer yelled ‘He’s pointing the gun. He’s pointing the gun out the back window. Heads up. Heads up. Passenger is pointing a gun out the back window. Everybody be careful.’ Siefer later admitted that he never saw a gun.” As a result, two people died because of either Siefer’s imagination at best and his outright lie at worst, either one of which should be sufficient to bar him from working as a LEO.
If you think otherwise? Prove it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Palme
Unbelievable but true. He became a socialist due to his time as a scholarship student in the USA. Because, as he said, he believed the American dream but wanted to realize a better version in his own country.
=======================
“On a scholarship, he studied at Kenyon College, Ohio 1947–1948, graduating with a B.A..[4] Inspired by radical debate in the student community, he wrote a critical essay on Friedrich Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom. Palme wrote his senior honor thesis on the United Auto Workers union, led at the time by Walter Reuther. After graduation he traveled throughout the country and eventually ended up in Detroit, where his hero Reuther agreed to an interview which lasted several hours. In later years, Palme regularly remarked during his many subsequent American visits, that the United States had made him a socialist, a remark that often has caused confusion. Within the context of his American experience, it was not that Palme was repelled by what he found in America, but rather that he was inspired by it.[5]”
Source: Wikilink above.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2070768/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_1
Is it mostly Swedish speech and does it have english subtitles?
You Tube is better: clearer sound, picture quality. No necessity to join!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4RxJJ-CqLE
That he is apparently jewish as shown by his philosophy of life and the characatyr modelled by a campaign opponent. If so is irrelevant to most people in Sweden. Never heard a curse word used. We have all kinds in our minister posts: gays, lesbians, businessmen, pastors, etc. Jewishness is not an issue, except to the nut or rightwing monied fringe.
I can after years here identify some prominent families and individuals. But never as a result of their being referred as such in the media. Media and philanthropic family Bonnier, also prominent publishers of books. Leif Silbersky and ???? Samuelson, the most reknown lawyers in criminal justice here, etc.
I gave the life of PM Olof Palme as it related to showing that simple things are complex.
For those who would learn more about the man who espouses a variant of the Jewish ambition here in life. English with swedish subtitles here.
GeneH,
There were no snarks. They are in your head and are your problem.
You said you are gonna “out” me. Is that code for when you abandon civility and enter abusive mode.
I don’t do strokes for you, as when you address me it is seldom positive.
But I don’t do snarks. Snarks are uncivil. And I strive for civility.
Blouse,
You won’t answer me, but you will GeneH. Your choice. Particularly when it is a pol who CYA’s the policemen who have a union, both formal and informal. No national goals hidden here, move on.
Thus letting the responsibility remain at the local level, and accountability on the shoulders of bureaucrats who have been trained to handle these problems.
I wonder if you and others deny the interwoven injustice system in place since HUAC days, implemented with constant tailing and terrorizing family members.
See prevous link to Spartacus, if you do. Mockingbirds is an intro to perverting the media who complied with CIA etc leadership in their messages.
Do you also deny the effects of the militarization on our police forces across the nation?
There is big difference between the warrior and the police. The warrior is trained, hypertrained by real combat, to shoot anything that moves.
How, when he beomes a police, as many do, can he control those well established reflexes with have saved his life (as he will attest) on many occassions?