Facebook Photo Of Child Holding Rifle Leads To Alleged Late Night Raid On New Jersey Home

jerseygun2-225x300Shawn Moore is a certified firearms instructor for the National Rifle Association and a New Jersey hunter education instructor. He was proud of his son for recently passing his hunter’s permit course and posted this picture of his boy in camouflage holding his .22 rifle. A Facebook “friend” saw the picture and reported him to the New Jersey police and Dept. of Children and Families for child endangerment. Moore says that his home was raided, searched, and he was threatened with the loss of custody in response to the complaint.


While not commenting on the alleged raid, Department Spokesperson Kristen Brown said. “We are required to follow up on every single allegation that comes into the central registry.” That is a bit surprising if the allegation describes lawful conduct. Children are allowed to hunt in New Jersey. I had assumed that there was some screening that occurs. Moreover, I am not sure why there is no intermediate step short of the search of the home.

Moore says that he received an text message from his wife that the Carneys Point Police Dept. and the New Jersey Dept. of Children and Families were at the home demanding to see his guns and gun safe. The officers were told by his lawyer to leave the home absent a warrant. He says that that officers responded that the demand for them to get a warrant was “suspicious” behavior. If true, that would be highly abusive and unconstitutional. A citizen invoking their rights does not create reasonable suspicion, let alone probable cause. While the officers said that they would get a warrant, he says that they never returned.

It does strike me as odd that anyone can trigger such an action based on a photo that does not show any illegal action or conduct that is demonstrably dangerous in a state where children are allowed to hunt and shoot such weapons.

What do you think?

Source: Yahoo

171 thoughts on “Facebook Photo Of Child Holding Rifle Leads To Alleged Late Night Raid On New Jersey Home

  1. What do I think? I think the US of A is turning into a police state, and anyone who talks about demanding their basic rights is someone that police state regards with suspicion.

    Looking on the bright side here, in this particular instance perhaps we should give thanks that the police didn’t come in with a SWAT team and leave someone dead in the name of “protecting” them.

  2. Well, I take pictures of my children taking baths, but I don’t post them on Facebook. I think, in the current climate, posting a picture of a child with an assault weapon is phenomenally unwise.

  3. If there were true justice, everyone involved would be fired. Until we start holding the police and govt agencies accountable, actions like this will become increasingly more common

  4. There is nothing unwise about it. We should not be afraid of legal acts because of hysterical fascists. At some point we are going to have totake back control from the fascists and remove them from power

  5. Outrageous abuse of the police power…and yes, all involved should be fired and, if possible, prosecuted.

  6. Seems like there must be more to this story somewhere. I’d like to know what the complaint stated and what the department did to investigate before the raid. Was there previous contact with this family before this incident?

    It may be that none of that changes the appearance of the raid but sadly we live in a time when the reporters are much more interested in making the story exciting and controversial than in just publishing the facts and allowing us to decide if the story is controversial.

    I have still not seen any real follow up on the story where the imaginary grenades turned out to be real rocks and the imaginary box turned out to be other kids on the playground. But that story wouldn’t have gotten half as much attention as the original.

  7. Vendetta: A 22 rifle is NOT an assault weapon, a clip is not an indication that it fires anything more than one bullet per trigger-pull, and the design is military-looking for a good reason, over half a century of research has gone into making military rifles stable, accurate, safe for the shooter, comfortable and shock absorbing for the user, and easy to use. If a child is going to use a rifle for hunting or target practice, this is a good choice for a parent to make.

    I would be far more worried if the child was brandishing a handgun.

  8. Failure to properly train the Children Protective Services….. We are nearing that zero tolerance of individual rights….

  9. A 22 rifle? I used to own a 22 rifle and it didn’t look anything like the thing that kid is holding. His looks remarkably like the AK 47 so it’s no surprise that someone reported them. The fact that his father is with the NRA might explain why he was dumb enough to post the picture. While I don’t agree with the police action I have no sympathy with anyone who allows a kid that young to use a gun for any reason.

  10. Tony,

    Yep. Especially considering the vast majority of all gun crime is perpetrated with hand guns and 2/3 of that is suicides.

  11. Personally, I find the reaction of the cops to being told to leave absent a warrant the most troubling aspect of this case.

  12. @ Frankly

    Thank you for injecting some critical thinking.

    It’s depressing to read people jumping to the defense of poor, persecuted, gun nuts while at the same time able to devine the Police are clearly corrupt. All from the USofA’s incompetent sensationalist media?

    No wonder you shoot each other at a rate far greater than any other nation on the planet.

  13. “magginkat” I am sure there are some quirks in your life that are entirely legal yet everyone around you might find odd, are you “dumb” and should you be investigated for them?

  14. Turley makes this sound a lot worse than it actually seems to be.

    1. I would not describe this as a “raid.” More like an inquiry or investigation. They come to the door, they knock, they talk to the wife, they request permission to search. When the husband comes home, he asks them to leave and they do. The officers saying a demand for a warrant was suspicious is wrong, but don’t cops do that or suggest not cooperating is bad in just about every case? Nothing since.

    2. Someone called into the hotline. We don’t know what was said. We don’t know what investigation, if any, the CPS did before going to the home. The assumption that the mere Facebook photo triggered the visit is from the father.

  15. I’m curious where Turley gets the fact that the family was “threatened with loss of custody,” the visit occurred “late night,” or that the cops responded to the request to leave without a warrant by saying that the request was “suspicious,” NONE of those facts are in the yahoo news article cited.

  16. More proof that we are a gun crazy nation — both for them and against them. Let’s all just take a breath and be reasonable.

  17. If this were a police state, the cops would NOT have left. Instead they would have rushed in, arrested the guy for obstruction and taken the child away. Simply responding to a tip does NOT make it illegal or oppressive for the cops to be there. ALL parties except the Child Welfare worker acted correctly.

    I do wonder what our rights are when a cop or other person acting in an official capacity refuses to give a name or badge number. Let’s hear from our lawyers on this one.

  18. not that it matters, but that isn’t a .22 rifle he’s holding, its not an AK47 either, its an AR15 or clone thereof. the magazine is much to large for .22 ammo

  19. The Prof already summed up the problem with the police, ARE. “He says that that officers responded that the demand for them to get a warrant was ‘suspicious’ behavior. If true, that would be highly abusive and unconstitutional. A citizen invoking their rights does not create reasonable suspicion, let alone probable cause.” The cops did not act properly if that assertion is true – plain and simple.

    As for refusing to give badge numbers and ID? That varies by jurisdiction and departmental policy, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. If they are in a patrol car? They are numbered as well and that information can be leveraged to find out the officer’s identity should that be required (i.e. if you have grounds for a suit and can use subpoena powers you would not have in the face of a non-compliant department in filing a complaint).

  20. The cops have free speech rights too from what I know. They can even lie to suspects, so I cannot see that they were abusive even if they said that, which according to the article they did not. Just because a cop asks to search, does NOT mean that you must comply. In many cases complying with a reasonable request saves time and hassle such as allowing a search of your vehicle in a traffic stop. Unless the cop is corrupt and plants evidence, in which case,. your ass is going to jail no matter what whether or not you consent.

    In this case, the question is about the Child Welfare worker who refused to ID herself. This is highly unusual conduct, and I think the person should file a civil complaint against her and her agency for that action. My impression is that all such case workers MUST present ID. I am certain that they cannot simply come with the cops and haul a child out without any ID being presented.

  21. More proof that we are a gun crazy nation — both for them and against them. -mespo7272

    OT, I suppose, but…

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/us/director-of-colorado-prisons-fatally-shot-at-home.html?hp&_r=0

    Head of Colorado’s Prisons Is Fatally Shot at Home

    By TIMOTHY WILLIAMS

    Published: March 20, 2013

    “The head of Colorado’s Department of Corrections was fatally shot Tuesday night as he opened the front door of his home, the authorities said, hours before Gov. John W. Hickenlooper was scheduled to sign into law a series of restrictive gun control measures.

    The department’s executive director, Tom Clements, 58, lived with his family in Monument, near Colorado Springs in central Colorado, the authorities said. The police have not identified a suspect.

    Mr. Hickenlooper announced the news on his Facebook page early Wednesday, calling Mr. Clements “unfailingly kind and thoughtful.”

    “I am so sad,” he wrote. “I have never worked with a better person than Tom, and I can’t imagine our team without him.”

    Mr. Clements, whom Mr. Hickenlooper appointed to the post in January 2011, oversaw the state’s public and private prison system and parole operations. He is survived by a wife and two daughters, the governor said in the Facebook post.

    On Wednesday, Mr. Hickenlooper is expected to sign three gun bills into law. They would require background checks for all gun transfers, charge firearms consumers for those background checks and limit magazine capacities to 15 rounds.

    Some county sheriffs in the state have publicly vowed not to enforce the measures.”

  22. Another lesson to not ‘friend’ anyone who asks cause you never know who some of these folk are, or what they will do.

  23. randyjet:

    “The cops have free speech rights too from what I know. They can even lie to suspects, so I cannot see that they were abusive even if they said that, which according to the article they did not.”

    *******************

    I’ve never subscribed to this notion that my government and its agents can lie with impunity to its citizens. Where does this idea come from?

  24. The SCOTUS has made the ruling that police are able to lie to suspects during interogation. The government has been able to lie since the founding of the US and this has been true of virtually all governments. Now if it is justified is another question and what should the consequences should be in another one too.

    I got a laugh out of Argentina complaining that the BBC lied during the Falklands War. They had based some of their military actions on the statements coming from the BBC which turned out to be a lie. I think most folks can understand such things, and use some common sense in judging official statements and whether or not lies were appropriate. Under oath, or in a legal proceeding, THAT is entirely different with different ramifications and penalties.

  25. This is outrageous.

    A couple things first. This IS a .22 caliber rifle. If you look at the magazine, and it is more apparent in the photo in the yahoo link, you can see the knob on the side of the magazine where the follower is. .22 caliber versions of this rifle have these and the magazine has a strip that is open and exposed. The standard 5.56 mm assault rifle does not have this.

    Also it is readily apparent this was just a picture of just a boy holding a rifle. The angle shows the person taking the picture is much taller than he and it is pictured outside a residence. That certainly shows the possibility the chid was at his residence and that a person of adult size was taking it. Couple this about him passing a hunting course I don’t see how this could be any more LEGAL for him to do what he is doing.

    Also, what is with the state claiming him to to be in danger when they are demanding to get access to the “LOCKED GUNSAFE” to determine the guns were not a danger to the child? Doesn’t the mere existence gun safe in itself show proof enough the parent is taking proper steps to ensure gun safety?

    I have commented previously on other topics of the abuses of Child Protective Services, this is a classic and textbook example of what I have had to deal with when I was a LEO, CPS threatening to take away the children if the parents objected to their illegal activities.

    And the the claim they have a duty to investigate, another jedi mind trick on behalf of CPS. Any sane investigator would have looked at this picture and saw nothing wrong or illegal and sent it back Case Closed. But, CPS and some rather moronic cops who got swept away with the case go in and violate the civil rights of these citizens with their illegal search and threats to deprive them of their children.

    And that they parents must have something to hide by demanding a search warrant and calling their attorney. BS !! THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO PRIVACY AND TO BE FREE IN THEIR HOMES FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCH BY GOV’T. There was NO probable cause to search this home and no judge would have granted a search warrant. Kudos to the father for standing firm for his rights, and those of all citizens.

  26. ‘In this case, the family believes someone called New Jersey’s anonymous child abuse hotline.”

    “State child welfare spokeswoman Kristine Brown said that when it receives a report of suspected abuse or neglect, it assigns a caseworker to follow up. She said law enforcement officers are asked to accompany caseworkers only if the caseworkers feel their safety could be compromised.”

    *****

    I’d say that the Department of Children and Families had to investigate the case once it received a report of suspected child abuse. I understand why a DCF worker might have wanted to bring a police officer or two along for safety reasons. That said, I think the police officers went too far in this situation. A social worker would be required to check to see that the child was okay. I think that the best thing to have done in this situation was for the DCF worker to ask to speak with with the parents and the child.

  27. Item #1: The boy has been shooting since he was five. He’s almost 11 years old. Notice that he has his finger off the trigger, just like his dad has told him to do. I’m not an expert on weapons, and will defer to Darren’s expertise.

    Item #2: Child welfare workers in this state (Colorado) are notorious, sanctimonious, self-righteous thugs, thinking they have powers far and above the mere mortals they serve. I can’t imagine those in New Jersey are cut from a different cloth. Having to respond to anonymous complaints without any further foundation is their stock in trade. Her not wanting to provide her identity is very suspicious and a great indicator of her knowing the wrongness of her unconstitutional actions. See: “Goose v. Gander” for details. Maybe someone needs to drop in on her home unexpectedly and see how many child welfare issues could be created.

    Item #3: It’s not far off base to think that the killing of Mr. Clements was specifically directed as a target hit, and not random, but let’s see what the investigation reveals.

  28. Why isn’t the DA going after the social worker for intimating that the children would be taken away if a warrantless invasion was not allowed? There are multiple witnesses including the lawyer on the phone.

  29. ” A Facebook “friend” saw the picture and reported him to the New Jersey police and Dept. of Children and Families for child endangerment. ”
    This may not even have been someone who knows the man/his family.

  30. “Item #2: Child welfare workers in this state (Colorado) are notorious, sanctimonious, self-righteous thugs, thinking they have powers far and above the mere mortals they serve. I can’t imagine those in New Jersey are cut from a different cloth. Having to respond to anonymous complaints without any further foundation is their stock in trade. -junctionshamus

    “Sanctimonious, self-righteous thugs” abound in this country.

    http://jonathanturley.org/2012/01/21/the-authoritarians-a-book-review-and-book/

  31. junctionshamus,

    Imagine if DCF received a call about suspected child abuse and never sent a social worker out to investigate to make sure the child was fine.

    My daughter is a social worker for DCF–as is my son-in-law. They have to deal with all types of tragic family situations: babies with cigarette burns on their faces and other parts of their bodies, infants with fractured skulls, children scalded with boiling water, children beaten and bruised, children neglected, suffering from malnutrition, and living in filth because their parents are drug addicts–or just don’t give a damn about them.

    I agree that the police officers and investigators were wrong to threaten the family. Still, they needed to check on the welfare of the child.

    Not all social workers for DCF are “notorious, sanctimonious, self-righteous thugs.” Many of them are caring people who do a thankless job for not much money.

    *****

    Child welfare workers get first-hand view of tragic situations
    By GINNIE GRAHAM
    Tulsa World
    Published: 4/29/2012
    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120429_11_A1_CUTLIN342012

    Excerpt:
    It’s a common injury seen by child welfare investigator Jessica Martin, and it speaks volumes about abuse and neglect in Oklahoma: ramen noodle burns.

    Children burn themselves pulling the 20-cents-per-package instant noodles from a microwave, pouring it onto their laps or eating it prepared way too hot. Sometimes it’s an accident. Sometimes it’s neglect or lack of supervision.

    “I’ve seen more cases of ramen noodle burns than I can count,” Martin said.

    But there are far more dangerous threats to Tulsa County children, she said.

    Those are among a list of societal ills including drug use, alcoholism, poor parenting skills, lack of education, poverty, hair-trigger tempers and a reluctance by the public to get involved.

    “I don’t even know how many child deaths I’ve seen,” she said. “There have been so many.”

    The Tulsa World spent two days shadowing child welfare workers who respond in cases of suspected abuse or neglect. The Oklahoma Department of Human Services workers vary in experience, but they have the same obstacles and goals.

    “The pay is horrible and the caseloads are too large,” Martin said. “But we want to go out and help people. We want to keep children safe and get families the services they need.”

    Martin has been chased by dogs, cursed at and lunged for. She has walked in on parents who were smoking marijuana or had guns on the ground. Once, a parent saw her at a gas station, yelled threats and then went to get friends to back her up.

    “I took off out of there pretty quick,” she said. “Unlike a police officer, I don’t have a weapon. It’s just me going up to a door.”

    When a child dies
    Martin was typing a report for a prosecutor when a suburban police department called with a possible child abuse case. She sighed and rolled her eyes, frustrated by not being called to the scene two days prior.

    Martin knew it would be a long day – fitting in that new case along with interviews scheduled after a newborn tested positive for drugs at a hospital.

    “We are knocking on people’s doors and accusing them of abuse, so the first reaction is going to be hostile,” she said. “We’d like to be out there with police when it happens so we can get the information all at once. If we are coming in later, we try to talk to them and calm them down.

    “People don’t understand what we do. They think we have the power to just take kids. That’s not true. There is a lot that goes into it, and it involves district attorneys and judges.”

  32. Some people get the vapors when they see a firearm in almost any context. Especially if a youngster is involved. Emotion takes over when logic would work better. My experiences with DHS following citizen complaints have been mixed at best. I used to have a relative, now deceased, who believed even the most wild-assed claim if it involved an allegation of child abuse or neglect. She instigated removing children from their homes on the slightest pretext if whatever was going on did not meet her personal approval. One juvenile court judge I knew well told me he thought she was, “Crazy as hell.” She would get police or sheriff’s departments to conduct raids like this all the time. The cases were generally thrown out by the juvenile court judges, but not until the families were traumatized and out a lot of money in legal fees.

    I got a Daisy “Red Ryder” BB gun for Christmas when I was five. My dad taught me to shoot, and he was a stickler for gun safety. The most trouble I ever got into as a kid was when I pointed that BB gun at another kid. Of course, the other kid was far out of range of the BB gun, but I never saw my dad so angry before or since. I never did that again. In teaching me to shoot, we would shoot locusts out of a big tree in the back yard. I suppose if that were now, we would have been raided and I would have been put in foster care.

  33. I don’t approve of guns, especially in the hands of children, but what child protective services did was appalling. Get some background first, guys!

  34. Magginkat, it is .22……And it doesnt look like an ‘AK47’, it looks like an AR15……At least try to sound like you know what you’re talking about you Daffys broad. Since when did ignorance become a virtue?

  35. Do not cooperate with CPS in searching your home, always contact an attorney, record ALL conversations. Document, document, document. CPS workers tend to be poorly educated busy bodies with night school sociology degrees paid for at tax payer expense who are given no training in the Constitution nor do they believe it applies to them. They are trained only to find some validation for any complaint, even ones like this that do not represent a violation of law. They are often used by vindictive third parties to intimidate and harrass exes, neighbors, or anyone else someone wants to engage in petty harrassment of.

    On the flip side, if you’ve got someone with kids you don’t like, call CPS and make a bogus complaint. Be vague as possible, the more vague the allegation, say general emotional neglect instead of physical abuse, the more scrutiny and more likely something will be validated. Saw it happen many times over the years working around them.

  36. Elaine – Based on MY training and experience, I’ve had to deal with particular CPS workers who, based on unfounded allegations, have destroyed more lives than they’ve helped.

    What’s also interesting is that, once an anonymous complaint is filed, it takes moving Heaven and Earth to find out the source of the complaint. Usually, the ones later determined to be unfounded, were personal in nature against the so-called “offending” parent or guardian. This was usually followed up by some lame-ass excuse for their (CPS workers’) actions.

    Here in Mesa County, Colorado, we used to have the “three harpies,” would would waste taxpayer money, going to courtrooms on cases where 2/3 weren’t even involved, but would go in an attempt to impress the DA’s office of the case being of such a magnitude, that three workers were required.

    I’m not saying that what may be accused is always a witch hunt, but at least if a CPS worker decides to take action, let it be with some foundation, and don’t be so ashamed of what you’re doing, that you have to hide who you are.

    In closing, kudos to your daughter and S-I-L if they’re doing their job right. If not, someone like me is always watching.

  37. I happen to know some CPS workers personally…….Many are among the worst parents I’ve ever seen……One has her kid so jacked with ritalin the kid is a zombie, another spent her teen years as a meth addict. This ‘its a tough job’ nonsense is idiotic. It is a tough job, that’s not an excuse to do it poorly or to trample peoples rights. Don’t do it if its too tough to do. The problem is that too many folks attracted to CPS are no logical thinkers. They are also used to validating complaints. If they show up at a house with good parents who don’t appreciate their interference, they take it personally and that is reflected in their subjective recommendation to judges. It is easy given the subjective nature of these jobs go rail road people. Creative report writting is a real skill.

  38. Camo for a hunter? He’s a target. Where’s his neon orange or yellow vest?

    Otherwise, a nice picture to commemorate a graduation.

  39. Junction,

    If I recall correctly…. The CPS have two sets of records… Those they divulge to the public which are required by law….. And those that they keep in house….. These are not public records and are exempt by law…. They can still be accessed by LEOs which makes no sense…..

    Believe this or not…. They can be used to deny employment…. But you can access them…. Or at least this is the way that it is in Michigan….

  40. The lesson is clear. Facebook should be used for nothing but posting photos of loyal citizens pledging allegiance to their flag.

  41. Mike Jarvis,

    Social workers who are employed by the Department of Children and Families (DCF) must have a college education–many have masters degrees. They must also pass a test in order to be licensed by the state. I know that is true in my state. Can you name the states where DCF/CPS workers are only poorly educated busybodies who are given no training?
    Do you believe all DCF/CPS workers are ignorant and unqualified?

  42. Mike Jarvis: My niece is involved in Child Protective services and you do not know what you are talking about. She did not graduate from night school, she graduated cum laude from a four year university with a bachelors degree. Her mother (my sister) is a sociologist.

    When one is exposed to kids on a daily basis being raised by drug-addicted mothers in roach-infested houses with kitchens stacked with filthy plates and coated in a layer of rancid grease, when one see kids infested with lice and fleas eating moldy bread or casually brushing live roaches off the dry cereal they are eating, it is possible one can develop a rather calloused attitude toward what parents are capable of doing (or not doing) with their kids. Such people tend to take every report of abuse or endangerment as worthy of investigation, just as they should.

    However, the story says, Department Spokesperson Kristen Brown said. “We are required to follow up on every single allegation that comes into the central registry.”

    They should be so required, but I think “following up” in this case is just the act of determining, as Professor Turley indicated, that the act was entirely legal, and thus dropping the matter, with no probable cause to warrant looking further.

  43. Mike Jarvis says” CPS workers tend to be poorly educated with night school sociology degrees paid for at tax payer expense who are given no training in the Constitution nor do they believe it applies to them.”

    I guess then anyone who uses government money, like pell grants or the GI bill is not getting a good education or is using money they shouldn’t have received?
    I have never been involved with CPS, I have only a BA from day school classes but I think you have an axe to grind for some reason and are painting with an awfully broad brush.

  44. Amazing fear-mongering and gun-phobic ignorance from vendetta1369 and magginkat.

    Yes. simple .22 rifles (that children of that age have used in markmanship classes at summer camps for decades) are now “assault rifles” — because the modern version use PLASTIC rather than wood stocks and thus are all-black in color.

    A little touch-up paint, making this all black, and you two can call it an assault weapon:

  45. junctionshamus,

    I have no doubt that there are incompetent social workers–some of whom may abuse their positions. That is true of people who work in many different professions and in many different jobs. One has to look at who is responsible for hiring and/or keeping such workers in their positions. I’d add that the stress level for DCF workers is very high. The profession has quite a turnover rate.

    Another thing–there have been horror stories about children who were killed/went missing after investigators failed to follow up on cases of abuse/neglect.

  46. Kansas, that’s two.

    I spent 20 years working with CPS. My experience is that some are scent, others useless. Many spent part of their time ‘fraternizing’ with cops they went on callouts with. The issue isn’t the individuals, its the arbitrary nature of what constitutes ‘abuse’……As a cop, we enforce clearly written laws. The definition of abuse and neglect is up to the subjective opinion of the individual agent.

    Those who disagree, please, cite a specific outline, other than agent opinion, that shows what is and is not neglect that shows this case falling in it. This was fishing. There was no alleged crime, no alleged abuse.

    Those saying ‘My daughter works for CPS, they have a hard job’……so what? CPS does have a purpose…….they are like chemotherapy………if you have cancer, or there is real abuse, it can save lives…….but, give Chemo to a healthy family, and you cause serious damage…….my issue is the arbitrary power.

  47. Tony C.
    If “the act was entirely legal, and thus dropping the matter, with no probable cause to warrant looking further.” is true, why did the worker refused to identify herself? When “Mr. Moore demanded that she give her name. She refused and ran away.”

  48. John – Paint it pink and it’s “Hello Kitty!” – hellokittyak471211431171.jpg

    Elaine – What you say is true, up to a point. I would bet that more children are needlessly removed from homes causing a lifetime of emotional scarring, than are killed due to a lack of intervention by CPS.

  49. Mr. Natural,

    “The lesson is clear. Facebook should be used for nothing but posting photos of loyal citizens pledging allegiance to their flag.”

    Or, nothing at all.

  50. OS,
    I think you are safe. I don’t think locusts are a protected species! :)
    This case is evidence of the blind leading the blind. Any police action should always be based on credible evidence, even when a child is involved.

  51. junctionshamus,

    “I would bet that more children are needlessly removed from homes causing a lifetime of emotional scarring, than are killed due to a lack of intervention by CPS.”

    I have no way of knowing whether that is true or not. The social workers I have known have been hesitant to remove children from their homes because there are so few good foster families.

    Do you think an eighteen-month old child should be taken away from parents who burned her with cigarettes? What about a child who is continually underfed and neglected? How about a child whose bones have been fractured because he was beaten–or a child who has been sexually abused by a parent? I don’t think people have any idea how many children in this country actually suffer from physical and sexual abuse and neglect at the hands of their own parents.

  52. Sirfith: Do you typically have such severe reading comprehension problems?

    I said that is what should have happened; I do not think CPS should have ever left their office for this case.

    Even public employees, like CPS or the police or other law enforcement, have a responsibility to not let themselves be used as pawns by racists, religious bigots, homophobics or other haters, or just ideologues that want to harass people for engaging in lawful activity they dislike. If the CPS or police or other law enforcement let themselves be used as pawns then they become an instrument of discrimination and oppression instead of an enemy of it.

  53. Mike Jarvis: Those saying ‘My daughter works for CPS, they have a hard job’……so what?

    So stop calling them names and claiming they are all petty jackbooted thugs with limited intelligence. Only a petty jackbooted thug with limited intelligence would fail to understand that.

  54. Elaine M.

    Arguing from the extreme example is a logical fallacy……This child was neither starved NOR physically abused. In fact, the state had no evidence of any wrong doing whatsoever…..They had a call alleging some violation of the callers sense of properity. They showed up, demanded access, were denied by the family, who invoked their Constitution Rights, and the automatic default responses was that invoking rights was clearly ‘suspicious’ and cause for further investigation.

    Real quick…..What law did the family violate? If you can’t even show me what law they were ALLEGED to have violated, you can’t justify investigating…..Investigating what, genius? That’s the problem……The arbitrary nature of the system.

    Broken bones? Clear violation of the law, allegations of physical abuse are a no brainer……And easily confirmed or denied, same with malnutrition…….Unfortunately the trend is more and more vague violations of opinion, contempt of DFS worker should not be justification for further intrusion without evidence…..That’s the point, and if you don’t get that, it well demonstrates the mentality i’m talking about.

  55. Tony C. “So stop calling them names and claiming they are all petty jackbooted thugs with limited intelligence. Only a petty jackbooted thug with limited intelligence would fail to understand that.”

    Having read Jarvis statement and your retort, it seems clear that you don’t have much basis for determing what is, in fact, limited intelligence, as you clearly suffer from that malady. For example, I didn’t read anyone saying they were petty jackbooted thugs…..I did read several references to arbitrary and limited in education and training. I think that’s probably pretty easily proven.

    Also, saying your kid is one doesn’t really change whether they are or are not limited in education and training……’Hey, don’t say that stuff, my kid works for them and it hurts my feelings to hear people criticize them’…..So? Not a valid argument.

    But thank you for playing.

  56. Elaine – “Do you think an eighteen-month old child should be taken away from parents who burned her with cigarettes? What about a child who is continually underfed and neglected? How about a child whose bones have been fractured because he was beaten–or a child who has been sexually abused by a parent? I don’t think people have any idea how many children in this country actually suffer from physical and sexual abuse and neglect at the hands of their own parents.”

    You’re being ridiculous. Let’s get off the sob-sister stuff and get back to the original argument. On the basis of an anonymous complaint about a photograph, police and a CPS worker responded and tried to enter a residence in violation of the 4th Amendment. When told “NO!” they continued their efforts but were rebuffed. In an attempt to determine the identity of this child welfare worker, the worker refused to comply with his request for her identity.

    That’s it, she’s a Jenny (a female jack ass), and should be held accountable for (1) overstepping the bounds of her authority; and (2) trying to hide her identity, b/c she knew she was wrong.

    I don’t know your daughter, or S-I-L. Maybe they do a fantastic job. If so, great! BUT, if they want to be in the CPS business, they certainly have to be tougher than what you say. It’s tough to see the wrong, it’s even tougher to admit it, when you are wrong. I’m just glad the good Lord has given me a wife who reminds me of how wrong I can be.

  57. Tony C.

    “I said that is what should have happened; I do not think CPS should have ever left their office for this case.

    Even public employees, like CPS or the police or other law enforcement, ave a responsibility to not let themselves be used as pawns by racists, religious bigots, homophobics or other haters, or just ideologues that want to harass people for engaging in lawful activity they dislike. If the CPS or police or other law enforcement let themselves be used as pawns then they become an instrument of discrimination and oppression instead of an enemy of it.”

    Very good points, and all the more reason why the system needs clearly articulated rules…….What constitutes ‘abuse and neglect’ should not be up to the individual agent to interpret. Imagine if law enforcement officers had the power to simply decide something was illegal based on how they felt about it? Not an action clearly articulated in law written by legislatures, but using his own subjective opinion……CPS does that……..Technically, it’s a judge that signs the order, but they follow the opinions of the CPS agents.

    Again, the ‘Kids with broken bones’ crowd being a prime example…….Someone mentioned earlier some reference to ‘Ramen noodle burns’…….That tells me now that somewhere, some CPS agency has created a training program which has identified ‘Ramen noodle burns’ as evidence of neglect, and are now training their agents that if a child accidentally burns themselves with hot soup, that is evidence of parental malfeasance, which can then be articulated to a judge in order to order further intrusion.

    And it goes beyond that, added to the list are things such as ‘education neglect’ where parents are being forced by the state and school systems to medicate and drug their children with psychotropics to make them more docile in classrooms.

    CPS, like other governments, is constantly expanding it’s reach, because it’s interest, like all governments agencies, is at it’s core about one thing……EXPANDING IT’S BUDGET! With more federal dollars at stake, CPS agencies have a vested interest in expanding it’s reach and it’s authority.

  58. What needs to happen is that CPS needs to be reined in. They need to be required to adhere to rules of evidence, they need to be held accountable so that when abuse is alleged and no evidence exists, further investigation should cease. They should not have the power to validate a complaint simply because a parent tells them to pee up a rope when they show up at the door. If they didn’t show up with evidence, that should be the end of it. If a police officer couldn’t get a warrant based on the evidence they already have, that should be the end of it. If there is physical evidence of abuse or neglect, or witnesses, of a criminal act, they should contact law enforcement and law enforcement can get a warrant. Using the terror tactics of ‘Well, if we don’t have extraordinary power to interfer in people’s lives, a child could get killed’ is not a valid argument. Physical abuse and neglect is already illegal, and those cases can be made without abusing good folks who simply were targeted by a vindictive caller. It’s called ‘evidence’. In this case, they have none…….Worse, they don’t even have an ALLEGATION OF A CRIME! They’re not even sure what they were fishing for.

    CPS: ‘We got a call there was a picture of your child with a gun on the internet.”

    Father: ‘Okay, is that illegal?’

    CPS: ‘Well…..Uhm…..I don’t know, but, uhm…….We’re going to need to search your house and stuff.’

    Father: ‘For what?’

    CPS: ‘Well, you know, like, uhm, guns and stuff……You know, for the children’

    Father: ‘I don’t think so, why are you even hear.’

    CPS: ‘Sir, i’m just doing my job to protect the children and stuff……You can either let us look, or i’m going to validate this complaint.’

    Father: ‘What complaint?!’

    CPS: ‘You need to calm down, sir, are you going to let us check your gun safes?’

    Father: ‘NO! You don’t have a warrant, go away’

    Police: ‘That seems rather suspicious, sir…..I mean, someone with nothing to hide wouldn’t be bothered but folks showing up at his house to ask to search it, you know……And stuff…….’

    Father: ‘What are you even looking for? What are you alleging i’ve done wrong.’

    Police: ‘Sir, please calm down, we’re just trying to protect the children’

  59. I guess some people haven’t read all of my comments. I have agreed that the police officers and investigators should not have threatened the family. I said the investigator should have talked to the parents–and to the child to make sure he was okay.

    Others got off the main track by making certain comments about DCF/CPS workers and casting aspersions on their character–as if to imply that they are all rotten apples. I was addressing those comments. I am free to make any comments I so choose. If you don’t like them–that’s your prerogative.

    I’m not a sob sister. I’m a realist.

  60. Mac,

    How does a DCF/CPS worker know if a child has/has not been abused unless he/she meets the child and checks out the situation. Shouldn’t the police have known the guns laws in New Jersey?

    *****

    Excerpt from the Yahoo article:

    “The weapon in the photo, posted by his dad on Facebook, resembles a military-style assault rifle but, his father says, is actually just a .22-caliber copy. And that, the family believes, is why child welfare case workers and police officers visited the home in Carneys Point last Friday and asked to see his guns.”

    The family believed that was the reason welfare case workers and the police visited the family. Do we know for sure that was what the abuse complaint was about?

  61. Elaine M.1, March 20, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    I guess some people haven’t read all of my comments. I have agreed that the police officers and investigators should not have threatened the family. I said the investigator should have talked to the parents–and to the child to make sure he was okay.

    Others got off the main track by making certain comments about DCF/CPS workers and casting aspersions on their character–as if to imply that they are all rotten apples. I was addressing those comments. I am free to make any comments I so choose. If you don’t like them–that’s your prerogative.

    I’m not a sob sister. I’m a realist.

    Not exactly…..Others of us have stated that this particular case of state abuse has resulted from policies that are designed to give way to much discretion in pursuing CPS aims…….In other words, basing way too much on the SUBJECTIVE opinions of individual agents, when it should be on OBJECTIVE standards of evidence…….When agents can’t even articulate what the particular allegation of abuse/neglect is, and how it’s considered abuse or neglect, BY LAW, other than just fishing for things they will then articulate is possibly abuse, based solely on opinion, I think it’s pretty clear there is a problem.

    The problem isn’t any rotten apples…….It’s about a system designed so that abuse is inevitable…..Period.

    So no, the issue isn’t whether your daughter/sister, whatever, is a bad person, or whether CPS needs to exist……..It’s what authority they should have and what limits should be placed on it…….The US Constitution is a good start…….Try Amendment IV for a start. ;)

  62. Elaine M.1, March 20, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    Mac,

    How does a DCF/CPS worker know if a child has/has not been abused unless he/she meets the child and checks out the situation. Shouldn’t the police have known the guns laws in New Jersey?

    *****

    Excerpt from the Yahoo article:

    “The weapon in the photo, posted by his dad on Facebook, resembles a military-style assault rifle but, his father says, is actually just a .22-caliber copy. And that, the family believes, is why child welfare case workers and police officers visited the home in Carneys Point last Friday and asked to see his guns.”

    The family believed that was the reason welfare case workers and the police visited the family. Do we know for sure that was what the abuse complaint was about?

    Lets start with this, Elaine…….How about actually having an allegation of abuse……What was it in this case? I’ll wait.

  63. Let me put it simply…….If what is alleged itself is not a violation of law? What are you investigating? Anyone?

  64. And further, you defenders of the CPS……What is examing the guns going to determine? Anyone? What purpose do they have too examine the guns? What does that have to do with the allegation…..Allegation of what again? What was the purpose CPS going there in the first place. ‘We got a phone call’…..Alleging what?

  65. seems to me if it appeared to be an assault weapon there is a legitimate question as to why a child would have one or be posing with one.
    That does not negate the inappropriateness of refusing to divulge a name, or saying that a warrant request is suspicious behavior.

  66. So, leejcaroll, a gun shaped like an ‘assault weapon’ is a violation of the law? What is the allegation? Or is offending your sensibilities now justification for calling CPS? I think we’ve hit on the problem. The old lady down the road using CPS to punish those she disagrees with, and that’s the problem……When you can use CPS as a tool to go after folks who are doing things that are neither illegal, immoral or unethical, but simply disagree with, then they have too much power. There is no allegation of criminal act, wrong doing, or anything else that would trigger state involvement…….Just a busybody who got her indignant meter dinged by the sight of a kid posing with a firearm, and she triggered the state apparatus…….And that is unacceptable.

    I so wish the identity of the caller were discernible…….They need to be punished, if not official punishment, by targeting for public ridicule and harassment…….And lets see if we can’t identify the CPS agent, as well…….She should have her name attached to this story.

  67. CPS: ‘You need to calm down, sir, are you going to let us check your gun safes?’

    Father: ‘NO! You don’t have a warrant, go away’

    Police: ‘That seems rather suspicious, sir…..I mean, someone with nothing to hide wouldn’t be bothered but folks showing up at his house to ask to search it, you know……And stuff…….’

    Typical, TYPICAL cop BS – And if the CPS worker didn’t have anything to hide, she wouldn’t be trying to hide her identity and acting suspiciously now, WOULD SHEEEEEE!! By the way officer, would you mind if I just waltzed into YOUR house and look around? Hmmmm??

  68. Anybody notice that NOBODY has said WHAT specific abuse the child was supposed to have suffered? Elaine has refused to say, Then we have the allegation from some fool that a child holding a semi-automatic rifle with his father taking a picture is a violation of the law! Incredible! Then we have these same people not knowing what an assault weapon is to begin with. Had that been a REAL assault weapon, and the owner not licensed to own it, he WOULD have been in trouble. Yet we have the people who are gun haters making laws about things that they have NO idea of what the subject is. THAT is beyond absurd.

  69. Well Mac, I reread the article, I must have mistakenly taken a line from one of the postings where the person who made the complaint said it was an assault rifle.
    I am not a busybody down the road but I would have grave concerns about a kid posing with an assault rifle. If that was the complaint I dot know that she was wrong. I personally would have been upset but I doubt it would ever have occurred to me to call CPS.
    I was an abused child, no one took notice, no one cared and it has scarred me for all of my life. I only wish there had been a busybody somewhere. That is not to give free rein but there has to be a line between invisible abuse but seeing the effects and behaviors and reporting it, to someone in authority, whether that be a teacher, the police or CPS and seeing something where nothing is there, such as this picture and at the most asking the parent about it to understand what they are seeing before going overboard

  70. I am astounded at the level of (in)civility I am reading here as opposed to the civil discourse that is the norm here.
    If I am the “fool” Randyjet I did not say it was illegal. You are letting your emotions blur your reading.
    Had it been an assault rifle and the owner not licensed it would have been illegal, you write, but how would anyone know that absent coming to the house or asking the father to come to the police station?

  71. I agree that child abuse is a problem, but when this campaign got rolling about doing something about it, I had grave reservations about the hoopla and hype. I knew it would go overboard, and it did in short order. The McMartin case only cost millions of dollars and was a travesty which cost the innocent day care providers their livihood, reputation, and their money. I don’t recall if they successfully sued the DA for that, but it was so outrageous that one can only conclude that the folks in CPS are retarded or corrupt or both.

    This instance is another example of the absurd overreach of such people. As one poster said, this should have ended at the OFFICE, not the doorstep of a good law abiding and by how he takes care of his guns an obviously responsible gun owner. HE is the kind of person who should own guns. I wish all owners were as consciencious.

  72. Better an “assault rifle” than a shotgun. Please ignore the politics preceding the rest of the video:

  73. Hello! That was my point–that we DON’T know what the specific allegation of child abuse was. Maybe someone can provide me with that information.
    *****

    leejcarroll,

    Discussions about guns usually do get emotional.

  74. Elaine – Yes they do. It’s those inconsequential, silly-ass (depending on your point of view) things like the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th Amendments that tend to get folks on both sides, in an uproar. Seems we’ve proven today that the First is still intact, at least on this site.

  75. Here’s another article on the story:

    Carneys Point police: We did not ‘unlawfully search’ Shawn Moore’s home after Facebook gun photo
    By Alex Young/South Jersey Times
    on March 20, 2013 at 4:42 PM
    http://www.nj.com/salem/index.ssf/2013/03/carneys_point_family_says_stat.html

    Excerpt:
    CARNEYS POINT TWP. — Police investigation into the case of a photo posted on Facebook showing a 10-year-old boy holding a rifle, is closed, according to Carneys Point Police Chief Robert DiGregorio.

    DiGregorio said today that no laws were broken in the incident where police and New Jersey Division of Children and Families agents came to the Panama Court home of Shawn Moore Friday night to investigate reports of a child having access to guns and ammunition.

    “At no time did the police attempt to unlawfully search his residence or violate the second for fourth amendment rights of Mr. Moore,” DiGregorio said. He added that the gun was a legal .22-caliber rifle and was given from father to son as a birthday present.

    Moore posted the photo of his son, Josh, holding what appears to be an assault rifle on Facebook, and DiGregorio said that both his department and DCF received anonymous phone calls about the picture.

    “In light of some of the recent school shooting across our nation, the Carneys Point Police Department takes these kind of calls seriously,” he said.

    Four officers and two DCF caseworkers arrived at Moore’s home at about 8:15 p.m. Friday to inquire about the photo and guns in the home.

    Moore was not home at the time, but his wife welcomed the officers and the child welfare agents into the home. She did not have access to the home’s gun safe so she called her husband.

    DiGregorio said that interaction between Moore’s wife and police was extremely cordial.

    Moore arrived a short time later at which point the situation began to escalate, according to DiGregorio, with Moore telling officers and the DCF agent to leave his home.

    Moore told The Associated Press that he was on the phone with his lawyer who was advising him on what to do.

    DiGregorio said the reports that officers were wearing SWAT gear were not true. They were wearing their Class B uniforms with exterior body armor vests. DiGregorio said officers go out in the same uniform every night.

    The DCF caseworkers and the police left the home after Moore asked if they had a warrant to search his house, the chief said.

    DiGregorio added that Moore appeared to be under the influence of alcohol at the time of the search, but said he was not charged with any offenses.

  76. junctionshamus,

    “Seems we’ve proven today that the First is still intact, at least on this site.”

    I thought the First Amendment protected our right to freedom of expression from government interference. Were you expecting the government might shut down our discussion?

  77. Elaine – That would be a trending topic of concern. And with the present administration wanting warrantless taps of e-mails and cell phone conversation, you’re not too far off base. Like the man said, “Thanks for playing” (at your own peril).

    Also, interesting that the cops throw in some rejoinder about dad possibly being under the influence, but being kind enough not to take action. That’s a CYA I’ve heard so many times.

  78. I was surprised a t that little toss aside about the drinking. Just in case you think we were wrong so how magnanimous we were.
    (and I like to think I am merely paranoid but you do sometimes have to wonder who is taking a peek at what you say and write)

  79. junctionshamus,

    “That would be a trending topic of concern. And with the present administration wanting warrantless taps of e-mails and cell phone conversation, you’re not too far off base.”

    I have been concerned about the Patriot Act, warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detention, etc., for some time. I have been disappointed that members of the news media haven’t gotten their knickers in a twist over what has been happening to our civil liberties. I have also been surprised that more Americans aren’t outraged by such things.

  80. The media doesn’t have time what with Lindsey Lohan, and the Arias woman, and how much Princess Diana’s dress sold for, etc.

  81. No charges in case of NJ boy pictured with gun
    1 hour ago • Associated Press
    http://santamariatimes.com/news/national/no-charges-in-case-of-nj-boy-pictured-with-gun/article_70c683cd-5f69-5c62-8b0e-8854f165f434.html

    No charges will be filed against a man who posted online a photo of his young son holding what appeared to be a military-style rifle, police said Wednesday.

    In a moment of heightened sensitivity around guns and gun control, the brief saga had the makings of a debate starter between people who oppose guns and those who say authorities are overzealous about even legal weapons.

    Police in Carneys Point, a town of 8,000 some 30 miles southwest of Philadelphia, gave their version Wednesday, days after the boy’s father, Shawn Moore, brought attention to the issue, saying that state child welfare workers and police in SWAT gear showed up at his home because of the online photos.

    Moore first posted a comment about the incident on a gun rights website and within days was appearing with his son, Josh, on a Fox News talk show and elsewhere. Moore said that the weapon was a .22-caliber rifle made to look like an assault rifle and that it was a gift for Josh’s upcoming 11th birthday.

    In a statement, Carney Point Police Chief Robert DiGregorio and Mayor Richard Gatanis said officers went to the family’s home at about 8:15 p.m. Friday after getting anonymous tips that a boy there might have access to weapons and ammunition.

    “In light of some of the recent school shootings across our nation, the Carneys Point Police Department takes these types of calls seriously,” they said, adding that they were obligated to go there with state Department of Children and Family caseworkers who requested assistance.

    Moore had said the authorities requested to see his weapons, but with his lawyer on a speakerphone he denied them access because they did not have a search warrant.

    The Carneys Point officials said the officers _ in night uniforms and body armor but not SWAT gear _ did not attempt an unlawful search.

    The officials said that they respect citizens’ rights to own weapons and that several officers knew the elder Moore from a shooting club.

    Moore’s lawyer, Evan Nappen, said the problem is the idea that the government could respond to people talking about or with photos of weapons on social media.

    “This is a shame because of the impact it has on a really good dad and his son,” Nappen said. “No one was in danger.”

    He said the state Department of Children and Families was aggressive and intimidating and could have avoided the situation by calling first.

    A department spokesman did not return calls Wednesday, but said Tuesday _without commenting on the specific case _ that the department routinely checks on tips it receives.

    The department has been under years of court-monitoring and has been criticized in several cases where children who died or were in peril were not checked on.

  82. Princess Diana’s dress sold? omg. I missed it!!!

    CPS has a difficult job and most such workers have a heavy workload. I never considered such a job. I knew that my life would too stressful b/c I would take the work home with me. I know of neglect and abuse. I grew up with it and carry the guilt scars of being powerless to prevent it for my siblings.

    Such a stressful job can lead to errors of judgement. In this case, I think an investigation was warranted. If the facebook picture was instigation, I would think that a police officer would be able to identify the gun. Most such pictures also include a caption, e.g. Jr. just graduated from training at gun safety camp.

    I would expect CPS to look into the complaint and I wouldn’t expect a CPS person to be able to identify the weapon. She was wise to take a police officer with her. Once it was determined that it was a 22-caliber, that the photo was a celebration picture for a gun safety course that should have been the end of it. The parents should not have been upset that questions were asked. The police should not have been upset that permission to search the home was denied.

  83. It was made to look like an assault rifle”. Why would you want to do that? honestly, I don’t understand that and I do understand coming out to the house. A phone call “Sir, is your child posing with an assault rifle and do you have more assault rifles and are they all registered? Are they locked away? Should we have any concern your child or others may be in danger?” Oh no, they are registered and my child, and no other people or children are in danger. Oh ok, we believe you.

  84. I think the reason that things get so heated in these discussions is that the level of ignorance is incredible on many sides. For example, some think that it is reason to call child welfare when they see a photo of a kid on his fathers facebook page with a “scary” looking gun. We now know the photo WAS the reason for the visit from CPS Since it is not illegal, nor even poor taste to many other people, this hysteria is outlandish. Those who think that such a photo is justifiable grounds for calling CPS are wrong. It is that simple. If I see a picture of you holding your child on facebook, and I don’t like how you are doing it, then CPS should come out and investigate if I call the CPS? The other problem is the FACT that the anti-gun people cannot even correctly identify the guns they complain about. It is like a non-pilot telling a 15,000 hrs Captain how to fly his airplane or make criticisms of how he did it. Most people would consider such a person a FOOL! Likewise to call semi-automatic rifles assault weapons is not only a lie, but reveals willful ignorance and prejudice. Willfully lying out of malice does not make for civil discussion.

    Then we have the other side in which any legal questioning by the cops is tantamount to confiscation, or oppression. In this case, the cops did nothing wrong, and the only person who did do something wrong was the CPS woman. To say that such a thing makes the US a police state is absurd too. In a police state, the cops would have not left, searched the house, and arrested the man.

  85. Folks, especially Elaine.

    I hope that everyone else has relatives that might be as dedicated and good as Elaine’s person who is with CPS and certainly there are those in various states who are good investigators. But in all the years I worked in LE I had only two experiences where CPS did what I would consider to be the right thing, ALL the other experiences I had with them ranged from at best incompetence and at worse what I would consider to be civil rights violations that greatly distressed too many families.

    I have worked with a great number of various agencies, including probably 30 or more state, local, and county police agencies, the FBI, the US Marshal’s Service, ATF, Customs and Border Protection, ICE, DEA, Secret Service, Military Police, NCIS, USDA, Railroad Police, Fish and Wildlife, Forest Service LE, Liquor Control Board, CPS, and probably a few others that are not coming to mind presently. Of all these agencies, CPS was by far the worst to deal with and I had so many bad experiences and witnessed such outrageous actions I really do not care to rile myself up thinking about them. In fact, my blood pressure probably went up 20 points just writing this response, so I cannot imagine what it must be like to be some of the parents that have been railroaded by these guys.

    I think I just need to recuse myself from this discussion. You all have valid points and I respect your opinions but this topic is just making me too PO’ed to be a good commenter.

  86. Elaine M. wrote:

    “How does a DCF/CPS worker know if a child has/has not been abused…

    “Excerpt from the Yahoo article:

    “The weapon in the photo, posted by his dad on Facebook, resembles a military-style assault rifle but, his father says, is actually just a .22-caliber copy.”
    _________________

    Firstly, the quote directly above from the Yahoo article is complete nonsense. It’s not a “copy”; it’s simply a MODERN .22 caliber rifle, with a plastic composite stock that happens to be black in color. It only “resembles a military-style assault rifle” to people with no knowledge of firearms who have been bamboozled and deliberately scared nearly witless by political hacks and hypocrites such as US Senator Dianne Feinstein who want them to believe that every modern rifle is an “assault rifle.”

    Regarding “military-style”: anyone with a room temperature IQ or better, even with no firearms knowledge, should understand the absurdity of suggesting the legality of a firearm should be determined based on its “style.”

    Secondly, regarding the very first quoted line at top:

    That would apply, were there to be an anonymous complaint, for instance, of a child being kept in a cage in the basement. But this situation, based on a PHOTOGRAPH of a smiling 11-year old, obviously properly trained, holding a firearm of a caliber that tens of thousands of children of that age have owned for decades, is not at all similar. The complaint should have been ignored or, at most, the investigator should have questioned the complainer (if available), or sought expertise, if needed, to determine that there was nothing suspicious or illegal depicted by the photograph. The family need never have been contacted.

    The manner in which this was handled reminds me of the increasing harassment of legal gun-owners in states where open-carry is legal. Gun-phobic ignoramuses call the police because they’re oh so frightened by a citizen legally and properly carrying a firearm, even a properly-holstered handgun; rather than the police explaining to these idiots that there’s nothing suspicious or illegal about what they’re witnessing, the cops use it as an excuse to harass the legal gunowner.

  87. Such sympathy for a smiling 11 year old child all dressed up in his cool camo outfit holding a tricked-out 22 on this thread and like sympathy on another thread for the armed homeowner who shot and killed the 16 year old drunk kid who got lost and entered the wrong house.

    It’s all so touching … surreal … oops, make that so real.

  88. from the article

    “I don’t like what happened,” he said. “You’re not even safe in your own house. If they can just show up at any time and make you open safes and go through your house, that’s not freedom; it’s like tyranny.”

    only they didn’t gain access to his house or his safe.

    so how is he not safe? how is it “like tyranny”?

    they came, he said “go away” they left.

    hell, they didn’t even shoot his dog.

  89. Darren.
    Spot on. It is a problem. I know a private investigator who made an excellent living exposing false allegations of child abuse. I just looked him up and find he must have retired. His web site domain name is now closed. Almost all the cases of false allegations of child abuse he exposed over a thirty-five year period were due to children’s services believing everything they were told. Even the most minimal investigation would have revealed it was in the context of a nasty divorce and child custody case, which is the biggest red flag of all. There were several false allegation cases which were revealed as extortion attempts.

    I mentioned the case here before, but children’s services convinced the local DA to charge a mentally challenged elementary school boy with rape. The kid had no concept of sex, or even why his “dingus” sometimes got hard and stuck out.

    Now I am going to do the same and back out of this thread.

  90. The 2nd amendment is supposed to insure nobody f**ks with the other 9. The govt and fascists have been getting ballsy lately however.
    Btw I am a Liberal so dont even go there.

  91. pete,

    “hell, they didn’t even shoot his dog.”

    You optimist you.

    ********

    As the story unfolded over the course of the day, I’ll have to say that my concerns of rights abuses by the police have been assuaged. They left appropriately when a warrant was mentioned. However, the CPS staffer refusing her identity? Still totally unacceptable. It may be legal, but it sure as Hell isn’t right. Good, bad, indifferent, irrelevant – they have in their position unique powers to destroy families and that alone should merit their identification when asked for mandatory.

    ********

    Rick,

    Apparently you failed your spelling assignments. Seriously, what kind of Neanderthal retrograde macho illiterate illegal unethical gibberish is “Nothing spells justice more than a bullet in the head”? Justice is a far more complicated issue than slaking a personal taste for bloody revenge. And I do apologize. That was a terrible thing to say about Neanderthals.

  92. shamus,
    I know where he is, including street address and phone number. I was just wondering if he was still working. I checked his corporation status and find it was dissolved in 2011. He is about 70 now, so I imagine he is retired. I know he did well for himself, he was a workaholic and there was never any lack of business. Certainly not as long as zealots at DCS were running loose. He earned his retirement. I just lost touch with him over the past several years.

  93. Mac: No, thank you for proving my claim. Of course nobody except me said “jackbooted thugs,” because that was my exaggeration of what was being said. But I understand, those of limited intelligence do rely heavily on literalness, so they search for the literal phrase and then crow with a second-grader’s bravado that the literal phrase never appeared. Instead of actually thinking, like an adult, that another adult (me) reading the false claims of incivility and low intelligence might characterize them with exaggerations of my own for the effect.

    Mac: because it’s interest, like all governments agencies, is at it’s core about one thing……EXPANDING IT’S BUDGET

    That holds no water either, and is more proof of foolishly shallow thinking. What would be the point of expanding its budget? The CPS workers are civil servants, top to bottom, with very closely defined salaries and benefits based upon seniority and rank, “expanding their budget” would not get them a raise, or new offices. In my niece’s organization, where she has been working for almost eight years, their budget and salaries have not kept up with inflation for any year.

    An “expanded budget” might buy some new computers, or a working copying machine, or an office chair that hasn’t been repaired five times with duct tape, but do you really think CPS officers are so sub-human they would separate a child from their parent to get a new sixty dollar office chair? You are making the presumption that these people are alien beings fundamentally different from you, and that is more shallow thinking.

    My point is that if CPS is being aggressive, their motivation is not “expanding their budget,” it is something else.

    I have already speculated on what that might be: Like many LEOs, a steady diet of viewing the worst that humanity has to offer erodes away their willingness to give anybody the benefit of the doubt, and a steady diet of watching people they believe should be punished go unpunished, and thereby continue to harm the children in their charge, makes them more aggressive and willing to cut more corners to prevent that outcome.

    To my knowledge CPS investigators are not highly paid, they do not have cushy offices, and they deal with some breathtakingly bad parents, step parents, and other adults interacting with children. According to my niece, most newbies only last a few years before they take their degree and move on to something less physically dangerous than confronting abusive parents, and less emotionally harrowing and draining than repeated encounters with beaten and raped children, or children taught to steal or deal drugs.

    The ones that stay grow a thick skin, and learn to suspect that everything a reported parent says might well be a lie to protect themselves. The nature of the experiences they have on the job can lead to bad apples that far overstep their authority and err on the side of a presumption of guilt, but the motivation for that is not selfish gain or an expanded budget.

    Thinking that is hardly thinking at all. It is not true for CPS, it is not true for “all government agencies.” You are just parroting the bird-brained line of all shallow thinking conservatives that all government is inherently bad.

  94. Funny thing about this is that HuffingPost ran it and forgot to mention that the guy was an instructor (not that it truly matters – but it could make some people feel better). And the comments I saw there are ridiculous, people really think it’s illegal to let kids handle guns.

    Have they even heard of Boy Scout camps? Rifle shooting merit badges?

  95. Frankly said, “Seems like there must be more to this story somewhere.”

    Really? Because the coverage I saw had quite a bit of information, all of which indicates the cops were wrong. Perhaps you’re looking for something to vindicate the armed psychopaths that invaded this man’s home? Good luck with that.

  96. Randyjet said, “ALL parties except the Child Welfare worker acted correctly.”

    Very funny. Do us all a favor? NEVER run for public office.

  97. “In a statement, Carney Point Police Chief Robert DiGregorio and Mayor Richard Gatanis said officers went to the family’s home at about 8:15 p.m. Friday after getting anonymous tips that a boy there might have access to weapons and ammunition.”

    I don’t expect every John Q Public to know the law. But, you’d expect the police to have at least some passing familiarity with it. My understanding is that it’s not illegal for the boy to have access to weapons and ammunition, So, why are the police wasting time and resources on something that’s legal?

  98. Gene: However, the CPS staffer refusing her identity? Still totally unacceptable. It may be legal, but it sure as Hell isn’t right.

    Is that your comment? Whoever said it, I disagree.

    I think revealing one’s name to a potentially violent parent that might be going to jail is a little more than a CPS staffer has signed up for. A badge number, employee number or case number would be appropriate if the person wishes to make a legitimate complaint, a name (with a phone book or casual Internet public records search) can reveal an address and endanger the CPS staffer and their family. All the suspect legitimately needs is a way to identify the staffer, to complain or if he ends up in court.

  99. Please do me and other law abiding gun owners and citizens a big favor and make us safer, and get rid any guns you own. Maybe you could tell all of us what law the police violated when they made the call on the house. The CPS worker as one other person here pointed out should have taken care of this complaint at the office, and not done anything or made a simple phone call. The CPS worker is the one who called the police for backup in the visit. They were well within their rights to ASK to see the guys guns. The guy was also well within his rights to refuse. Had the cops threatened to arrest him or find some bogus excuse to compel him, THEN they would have been in violation.

    I would hate for any poor cop who has to have any interaction with you to have you be armed. While I have been abused and had many of my rights violated by police and other agencies. I don’t take ALL cops or investigations as being wrong or unlawful. For good or ill, any society needs police. The problem is to keep them within bounds of law. Absent any law violation, the cops acted correctly.

  100. “A badge number, employee number or case number would be appropriate if the person wishes to make a legitimate complaint,”

    That’s revealing their identity, Tony. Note the word choice. I said “identity”, not “name”.

  101. My previous post should have referenced dkenner. As for Tony C, the child welfare worker has to testify in court accoding to our Constitution if any charges were filed by the way. Too bad you forget about that part of it. So yes until I know differently in state law, I DO think her refusal to give her name is wrong and possibly even illegal.

  102. Michael Val,
    I can see logically where the police might feel they have a responsibility to at least check on a tip, especially multiple tips, given recent school shootings, to make sure there was not more to the story. However, once the situation is explained by the parent at the front door, the story should have ended there. Mom could have shown the officers the photo posted online (or give them the URL) which was the obvious source of the complaints, and that should have satisfied them. I have an idea every one the responding officers who have kids are teaching them to shoot safely. Some may even have their own kids posting similar stuff on social media.

    One of the biggest problems, it seems to me, is all the nosy Nellies who not only meddle in other people’s business, but actually create trouble and conflict where none is present before the meddling. Here is another case of adults meddling where none was wanted or needed. Take a look at the story at the link:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/21/1192669/-My-Daughter-was-Outed-by-her-Middle-School-Guidance-Counselor?detail=hide

  103. Michael Val from what I have seen the cops were called by the CPS worker, and they had to go as back up. I have no idea if they knew exactly what the alleged abuse was, but they had no choice in the matter. So I cannot fault the cops since they did their job correctly. Any fault lies with the CPS worker and the anti-gun nuts who think that a kid holding a “scary” looking GUN is dangerous and illegal. I guess they would call the cops if the guy had put a picture of his kid in the cockpit of an F-16 at an airshow too. THAT can do a LOT more damage than a rifle.

  104. ARE,
    I have a photo of my (then teenage) daughter with the M-2, the old “Ma Deuce” in the nose bubble of the CAF’s B-24. Sure glad I didn’t post it online.

  105. Gene & Tony,
    I read that as “identity,” meaning “a way to identify” rather than name. If one wished to file a complaint or lawsuit, you need some way to identify one person out of many. Every agency has some sort of way to identify staffers without revealing names. The IRS uses registered pseudonyms as “names” for their agents. Employee numbers or badge numbers are another. Government agents acting in their official capacity, but deliberately concealing a way to identify themselves, has bothered me since the days of the Vietnam war and civil rights protests.

    Even to this day, we see photos and videos of Police officers STILL putting black electrician’s tape over their badge numbers before engaging in activities that violate the first half dozen Amendments to the Constitution.

  106. Otteray,

    “I can see logically where the police might feel they have a responsibility to at least check on a tip, especially multiple tips, given recent school shootings, to make sure there was not more to the story. However, once the situation is explained by the parent at the front door, the story should have ended there.”

    You don’t think that the police or CPS worker should have asked to speak to the child?

  107. Elaine,
    Short answer is No. The explanation by a parent should have been sufficient, given the obvious fact the whole thing was innocent and blown out of proportion.

    Speaking professionally, it is a bad idea to interview/interrogate a kid except under controlled conditions and then only by an expert. I have lost track of how many cases I have worked on where some social worker, therapist or interviewer completely screwed up an investigation by asking a kid leading questions, thus contaminating the child’s memory. Dr. Anne Graffam Walker has written books and articles about the problems of interviewing children. As Dr. Walker points out, it is really easy to FUBAR a case involving children.

    All too often, children’s legal rights are completely ignored. When the family lawyer intervened via telephone, the police allegedly said that was “suspicious.” Baloney. Its the law, until the 5th Amendment is repealed. As a professional educator, I know you keep up with what goes on in schools regarding police being called. Have you been following the case of the mentally handicapped autistic kid who was arrested in a sting? Here is the latest in the saga. The writer is the mother of the autistic kid. She provides links at the end of her narrative. Those links are a timeline to the story from the beginning. If this does not raise the average parent’s blood pressure, nothing will.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/20/1194184/-Our-Autistic-Son-The-District-is-Still-Going-After-Him?detail=hide

  108. Otteray,

    You don’t think some parents lie? Now, I’m not suggesting that these parents lied. I don’t want people of accusing me of things.

    Aren’t child welfare workers required to check on a child when a report of abuse or neglect has been made to make sure the child is okay?

  109. Elaine,
    if the report of abuse is credible, they do have a duty to report. I know the teachers are required by law to “report” concerns that they have. I am sure that there are times when the report or tip or facial evidence is not accurate, but I agree that child welfare workers would be fired if they just took the parents response as gospel.

  110. OS,
    If you have the picture of the B-24, (without your daughter in it) I would love to see it. My dad flew B-24’s in WWII.

  111. Elaine – Not when the report is (1) Anonymous, (2) Unsubstantiated, (3) Uncorroborated. I see nothing where there was anything beyond what I’ve listed. This issue is a boy and a gun. He seemed pretty darn happy, the firearm was safely handled. There were no allegations of physical or sexual abuse. This was just another incursion by the “nanny-state” to intrude on the privacy of the family. No laws were broken.

    If I read OS correctly, in a child welfare case, there’s only one way to do it right, and many ways to do it wrong. I think this CPS worker did pretty well with the latter.

    Maybe we need to promote the sales of these:

    http://compare.ebay.com/like/251117330582?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

  112. jshamus While I appreciate those, I hope you DO realize that cops do NOT always need a warrant to enter your home. I think that one of those mats MIGHT give a cop pause before they charge in and think about their probable cause before they kick the door in.

  113. ARE – Second person that showed me this was a defense lawyer.

    The first? You got it, a former cop and judge.

    And yes, I know; barring exigent circumstances, someone who opens the door wide to speak with cops and gives them a “plain view” exception,” or a dumb-ass client who says, “Sure, c’mon in, I’ve got nothing to hide,” the Fourth applies.

  114. junctionshamus,

    Do you know what the actual complaint was?

    How would a child welfare agency go about corroborating an accusation of child abuse or neglect?

  115. Middle School Suicide Of 8th Grade Student Reported At Davidson Middle School In Southgate, Michigan
    Posted: 03/21/2013
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/21/eighth-grade-suicide-davidson-middle-school_n_2924401.html

    Excerpt:
    An eighth-grade student brought a gun to school on Thursday and committed suicide, according to officials.

    Fire department officials told reporters that the student died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, reportedly in a bathroom, at the Southgate school early Thursday morning.

  116. Authorities Respond to Loaded Handgun Brought to School
    by Jim Daly
    by Kristina Kuestner
    Story Created: Mar 14, 2013
    http://www.krextv.com/news/around-the-region/Authorities-Respond-to-Loaded-Handgun-Brought-to-School–198286281.html

    DELTA, Co.- Delta police respond to Delta Middle School Wednesday regarding a loaded handgun allegedly being brought to school.

    The officers retrieved the loaded handgun at a location off school property. The cooperative juvenile student who possessed the handgun was placed into protective custody without further incident.

    Delta Middle School students were not threatened with the handgun nor were any students injured.

    Police issued a “child abuse” summons to the handgun owner.

    Delta Police Chief Robert Thomas says he’s pleading with the community, specifally handgun owners to be responsible by securing their weapons in a gun safe, gun box, or to secure their weapon with a safety trigger lock.

    Police issued a “child abuse” summons to the handgun owner.

  117. Police: Moore student brought loaded gun to school
    Incident happened at Sky Ranch Elementary School
    Mar 04, 2013
    http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/Police-Moore-student-brought-loaded-gun-to-school/-/9844008/19172848/-/wgnnyk/-/index.html

    Excerpt;
    MOORE, Okla. —Oklahoma City police say a student brought a loaded gun to a Moore school Monday.

    A 12-year-old sixth-grade student at Sky Ranch Elementary School, located at 9501 S. Western Ave., brought a loaded .45 semi-automatic pistol onto school grounds, according to officers.

    Investigators said the student was showing off the gun in a bathroom at the school. One of the students in the bathroom became concerned and called a parent who alerted police

  118. Arthur: the child welfare worker has to testify in court accoding to our Constitution if any charges were filed by the way.

    Yes, they do, and such testimony could be damaging to an actual violent parent, don’t you agree? And if the parent is actually violent, then using the name of the CPS worker to find out where she (or he) lives, he might decide to stalk, threaten, kill or beat up the CPS worker to prevent her from testifying, or stalk and threaten her children, or an elderly mother she cares for, or whatever. Don’t you agree?

    As others have noted above, there is a requirement to provide some kind of identification that allows the citizen to uniquely identify the particular CPS worker IF charges are filed or they wish to file a lawsuit. That does not mean the CPS worker’s full name; which between public records and the Internet might as well mean their home address.

    IF the case goes to court, then the CPS worker might have to reveal her name. But at that point the risk of being intimidated into not testifying, or not bringing charges, is over. She risks revenge, and that is part of the job, but I think that is a lesser risk than when the criminal thinks they might still escape trial altogether.

  119. Elaine – just down the block from me (30 miles away, 50 is considered “around the corner”). And I see nothing wrong with someone being cited for leaving a handgun out where a child could get to it. That’s the “personal responsibility of handgun ownership. Here’s the follow-up from the Delta County Independent:

    The report of a student bringing a loaded handgun to Delta Middle School stunned parents last week.

    The incident occurred on March 13, and illustrated the importance of encouraging kids to contact someone in authority if they encounter situations they believe to be potentially dangerous.

    “Students are our best advocates,” said assistant superintendent Kurt Clay last week. He explained the handgun was discovered by two students, one in high school and one in middle school. They took the handgun to their house and turned it over to an adult. When school administrators learned of the incident they immediately called 911.

    Officers from the Delta Police Department retrieved the loaded handgun from that house and placed the unidentified juvenile student in protective custody. Chief Robert Thomas said the juvenile was cooperative. At no time did the student threaten or injure anyone with the weapon, and DMS students and staff were never at risk. Clay said he has not yet learned why the student brought the gun to school.

    The Delta Police Department issued a child abuse summons to the handgun owner. Clay said disciplinary action was taken against the student. Both Clay and Thomas declined to provide any more details.

    A letter was distributed to DMS parents in which Clay said, “Even though there were no threats, we are pleased to tell you that our staff and students acted immediately and implemented our procedures to keep everyone safe. We believe our students are our best resource and in this case it proves true. Our students initially recovered the firearm, gave it to an adult and notified the administration about what had occurred. Please help us by talking to your student about who to talk to and what to do if they are ever presented with this type of situation. It is extremely important that this type of information be reported to the proper authorities to ensure everyone’s safety.”

    Delta Police Chief Robert Thomas pleads with the community, specifically handgun owners, to be responsible by securing their weapons in a gun safe or gun box, or securing their weapons with a gun cable or safety trigger lock. “A tragic event or loss of life involving guns can be avoided if we work together as a community to make gun safety a priority in our homes,” Chief Thomas said.

    The Delta Police Department has gun safety locks available for City of Delta residents. The locks are available during regular business hours.

    Now THAT’s the way we do business in Western Colorado.

  120. Elaine,

    With Repect to the Michigan one… It’s very sad, no depression, drug use etc…. A note was found in he pocket… Not sure what was in it… But the kid had a 40 caliber Glock….

  121. 7-year-old brings loaded gun to school
    http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/story/21416988/elementary-student-had-loaded-firearm

    Excerpt:
    SOUTHWEST MEMPHIS, Tenn. (FOX13) –

    Ross Elementary teachers were urged to keep their students inside their classrooms after receiving a tip that a student brought a loaded firearm to school on Wednesday, a district spokeswoman said.

    The school was put under lockdown at around 10:30-11 a.m.

    A police investigation revealed a 7-year-old student was in possession of a loaded gun and brought the gun to school on Tuesday.

    Police officers arrived at the school, located at 4890 Ross Road, at around noon Wednesday after the school went under lockdown. A school officer told the police that school officers who were told of several students were passing around the loaded gun on Tuesday.

    Police spokeswoman Alyssa Moore said the loaded gun was passed around at least eight students. The students were all boys ranging in age between 7 and 10.

    A 10-year-old student was reportedly the last student to be in possession of the loaded gun and he was arrested.

    Though no students or teachers were injured, a FOX13 News source said the child originally with the loaded gun threatened to shoot any children who told teachers about it.

    Read more: http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/story/21416988/elementary-student-had-loaded-firearm#ixzz2OCWot24R

  122. here is another:

    Apex child, 4, shot in the leg

    Posted: Mar 14, 2013 2:43 PM EDT Updated: Mar 15, 2013 1:08 PM EDT

    By WNCN Staff

    APEX, N.C. –
    Apex police responded to a call reporting a child being shot Thursday afternoon.

    According to Apex Police, when officers arrived at the scene on Scott’s Ridge Trail, they found a 4-year-old boy shot in the lower leg.

    Christopher Hamby, a family friend, left a loaded firearm in the unlocked glove box of his vehicle. The victim and his 3-year-old brother were allowed to play in the car while the boy’s mother and Hamby were inside the home.

    The victim retrieved the gun from the glove box and shot himself in the leg.

    The driver of the car was not the father. The driver of the car will not be charged because general statute is that only a parent or legal guardian can be charged.

    The child was transported to the hospital by ambulance for treatment.

    So an adult leaves the gun in the glove compartment, a child is injured but because not the parent no charges, how asinine is that?
    http://www.wncn.com/story/21643417/apex-police-respond-to-a-child-being-shot

    Ann Stephens with the Apex Police Department confirmed that the child is still in the hospital but will be OK.

  123. Student brings loaded gun to middle school
    Dec 07, 2012
    http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/20291277/student-brings-loaded-gun-to-middle-school

    Excerpt:
    DALLAS –

    A student brought a loaded gun to Kennedy-Curry Middle School in Dallas this week. Many parents are now concerned about their children’s safety.

    The Dallas Independent School District said the sixth grader had a .25 caliber semi-automatic pistol in his backpack. It was secured without incident and he was removed from campus.

    The school does require students to have clear or mesh backpacks, but the weapon wasn’t noticed until other students told a campus police officer.

    “For a sixth grader to bring a gun to school, it just kind of makes you question as to what we are going through now,” said Christopher Bloomer, a parent. “I mean, you’re just out of elementary school and you’re bringing a gun to school. That’s a tough pill to swallow.”

    Darlene Bustos is a Dallas County juvenile probation officer whose younger brother attends Kennedy-Curry. She thinks the school needs metal detectors.

  124. junctionshamus,

    You know I’m pro-2nd, but you mentioned gun locks. I’m also a big proponent of forcing the gun industry to make a safer product, such as guns with built-in locks or electronic fire control systems. I saw one proposed in a science magazine that really liked – it coupled a ring with RFID tech in it with a reader in the handle and the weapon would only fire for someone wearing the appropriate matched ring. I’d like to know your (and others) thoughts on that kind of safety measures.

  125. Gene,
    The technology is there, but I can foresee problems. First, guns work on purely mechanical principles instead of electronics. Building an electromechanical interface into something like a revolver would be an engineering nightmare. Another factor would be reliability. We all know how reliability can be a problem with computers, electronic door locks and automobiles. RFID chips are sensitive to heat, electromagnetic fields and can’t get wet. If any law enforcement officer or homeowner is looking down the barrel of a bad guy’s shotgun, they want to know their own gun will work, and work every time.

    The additional cost of such technology would certainly not be cheap. I have built revolvers from scratch and know what is involved mechanically. I cannot envision any way to retrofit existing firearms.

    The two somewhat light-hearted videos below are part of a promotional campaign by Glock. They feature former Marine DI and Gunnery Sergeant-turned-actor, R. Lee Ermey. The reason I post these is because I wanted you to note the small hidden gun safe, and how quickly and easily it operates. Those are available with a choice of fingerprint recognition or keypad code. Note there are ridges in the keypad so the fingers are positioned to fall perfectly on the keys. It can be opened quickly in total darkness with no fumbling.

  126. Gene – I’d be the guy apologizing for knocking you over, trying to get one before the store ran out. And I’d be apologizing again, b/c I ran back home to get the non-RFID guns retrofitted (if possible).

    I don’t know the “readable distance” for those devices. In junctionshamus’ world, I’d like them to be useful enough that if I had to switch grips from left to right, the reader could recognize the ring when my left hand is outside my right, but not so far in range that if I’m disarmed in a struggle, I’m not shot with it.

    Now the downside – (1) battery failure (default for dead batter should be firing mode – you can change them like you do batteries on your smoke detector), (2) RFID can be jammed, accidentally or on purpose, and unfortunately, the “gub’ment” is big on RFID technology. It would be nice if a user could re-key the RFID code from the factory setting.

    Darren, who would be a great source, got so flustered that he left the thread. Hopefully I can draw him back.

    Hope I was helpful.

    Bob

  127. OS/junctionshamus,

    Thanks for the input.

    As for retrofitting existing guns? Eh, I’m pretty sure that’s right out. It would require some major retooling of the firing mechanisms. Not impossible, but impractical to be sure. On the other issues? I simply view those as engineering challenges. And RFID is not the only cat in that bag. Simple thumbprint readers built in to the grip come to mind or voice locks. I recall a sci-fi example in the rather kitchy but underrated “Lost in Space” movie where the guns could be unlocked for a single user or all users by voice command. However, the battery life issue is legitimate. Whatever it would be, it would have to be low powered, but the good news is that chips are becoming more power efficient (and powerful) every day. That’s why an iPhone fits in your pocket instead of in a desktop box. Still, I don’t think we’ve seen a technological problem that is incapable of solution even if difficult. I also don’t see cost as too much of a barrier except from maybe small time manufactures or custom boutiques. I’m sure whatever system devised that is practical could be bought in scale by a company like S&W or Colt or Ruger in large enough quantity to drive the price down. Besides, I honestly think a gun that “only fires for you” would be a hit with the home defense/survivalist types. That’s why I’d accept Bob’s apology for knocking me over on the way in the store. :D That and he’s armed.

  128. mespo,

    Yes. I’ve been following that whole line of stories. In fact, I’ve been considering doing a story on it. It may have reached an apex where such a story might even be appropriate as one of the providers of blueprints for such guns – Defense Distributed – has gone so far in the regulatory battle as to get a traditional ATF manufacturing permit. The consensus seems to be that until a major crime is committed with a printed gun that its all up in the air vis a vis regulation.

  129. Gene: I do not think the engineering (or retrofitting) would be that difficult, and I doubt it would be an engineering nightmare at all.

    A very small pin of steel can block a trigger from pulling; that would be my target but from the bottom. Build the RF receiver into the grip, immediately behind the trigger guard; and have the new safety-pin run through a hole in the bottom of the trigger guard. Then when the ring (or bracelet or watch or whatever) is close enough, the electronics can pull the new pin out of the way so the trigger can be pulled. If you want, the electronics can be mostly high on the back of the grip; or even on the far side of the trigger guard. the actual sensors are paper-thin, you won’t notice the wires running to the grip.

    You should make the pin actively controlled, do not depend on gravity; the gun may need to be fired upside down or sideways. However, the coil needed to create the magnetic motive power for the pin can be inside the pin, a neodymium ‘doughnut’ magnet can encircle the pin, so reversing polarity makes it drop.

    I will also point out that “electronics” does not have to be a computer, per se, there are simple electronic systems that can engage in the recognition of such keys without any central processor involved. An FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) is a similar technology that allows purpose built circuitry for such tasks. Thus, no code, no hacking, no bugs.

    Finally, the power source should be devised to recharge by proximity (like some electric toothbrushes are, some phone rechargers work that way); so the gun can be left in a safe place near the recharging field. You don’t want to need your gun for the first time in six months and find out the battery is dead and it cannot be fired. I believe many existing guns could be retrofitted for that; but it would require a little metal work to properly drill the trigger guard (but that also is not involved in the operation of the gun).

  130. Gene,

    I heard about this on Tuesday NPR….. It has some validity…..the draw back I have is…. If you at a firing range…. It works well in theory….but in practicality….. Most people take jewelry off at night…. So unless you have your secret decoder ring right next to the gun… How is that beneficial….. I think a properly placed gun lock has the same issues… Hand guns need to be in he hands of people that know how to use them and when…. Unless you have both… You have problems all he way around…. I don’t think there’s any right or wrong answer….

  131. Junctionshamus asked me to comment here on the RFID safety issue on guns

    Personally, I would not use a firearm that had this and the reason is reliability.

    As previously stated, RFID can be jammed, spoofed, or fail due to several factors. Other issues have been proposed such as a mechanical key lock. But the more complexity introduced into a system, primarily by electronics or software, the more the probability of failure.

    I had an incident once at work where an armed robbery took place at a drive up espresso stand. The robber fled and ran toward a park, where a city officer just happened to be when the call was dispatched. The suspect partially drew the handgun out of his waistband when confronted but chose instead to continuie running. He was heading through a field in the direction of an apartment complex. I arrived just to the North and fearing he might run into the apartments and take a hostage and the environment I went to draw out the M-16 I had in a lock-clamp between the seats. Well, the electronic device to open the hasp that held the gun failed and I couldn’t get the rifle out. So now I had to go into this with just my handgun, which was disadvantageous.

    Just as he was entering the complex he came around a corner and I saw him, he was too far way for a pistol but had I needed to engage him I should have with the rifle. And, as I feared, he slipped through and broke into someone’s apartment. Luckily, he decided to run out the back door and he was arrested later without incident.

    Because of that every day I tested the long gun locks in my car just to be sure they were working, I wouldn’t want to take the chance this would happen again with my sidearm. Dead battery, dead cop.

    That is my choice though. If someone wants to have such handgun locks that is their perogative. Not for me though, But there is something to be said about having a gun that only you can fire. The statistics I heard from the FBI was that 90% of the time when an officer is disarmed by the suspect, the officer is killed. So it’s a roll of the dice with what you choose. A middle ground might be an extra mechanical safety that only the officer might know how to use, but it is only worthwhile if it can be used by the officer rapidly and seamlessly.

  132. Oh, one more thing.

    The pistol I carried at work has a design feature that if the magazine is released it will not fire. It was one of the reasons I chose this pistol. So if I got into a wrestling match with someone trying to get the gun out of my hands and if I was losing the battle, I could just press the magazine release button and it would not fire. Then disengange from him and use a backup weapon.

  133. sorry tony c but this is true of ALL witnesses and I fail to see that government officials are more valuable and privileged that the rest of us. In fact, that is a problem in many neighborhoods with gangs and other organized crime. So if the ordinary citizen is subject to being threatened for being a witness, I think the same goes for government employees., apart from undercover or secret informers.

  134. Arthur: What is true of “all witnesses?”

    What I am talking about is PATENTLY untrue of all witnesses, if nothing ever goes to court, they are not required to reveal their name to anybody. The only time you have to reveal your name is if you choose to testify and the D.A. chooses to take the matter to court.

    If I am walking by a house, and see somebody getting beaten, I can call 911 and I do not have to tell the assailant my name, address, or anything else. If it goes to court I might, but he has no right of discovery or any right to my personal information until he has been charged with a crime.

  135. One Nation Under The Gun: Thousands Of Gun Deaths Since Newtown
    By Jason Cherkis
    3/22/13
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/22/gun-deaths-us-newtown_n_2935686.html

    Excerpt:
    In the first week after the Newtown, Conn., massacre on Dec. 14, more than 100 people in the U.S. were killed by guns. In the first seven weeks, that number had risen to at least 1,285 gunshot killings and accidental deaths. A little more than three months after Newtown, there have been 2,243. The Huffington Post has recorded every gun-involved murder and accidental shooting death reported in U.S. news media since Newtown, revealing an epidemic that shows no signs of abating. The horrors cannot be contained behind yellow police tape or find resolution in a courtroom. For the victim’s families, the grief deforms all it touches. There’s the fear that the radio will play her favorite ballad. An airplane overhead, like the kind he flew, will strike panic. Home is not safe. One month, two months, two years, nine years since those fatal shots — the grief never leaves.

  136. NRA Robocalls In Newtown Spark Outrage From Local Gun Control Group
    By Christina Wilkie
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/22/nra-robocalls-newtown-_n_2934948.html
    Posted: 03/22/2013

    Excerpt:
    WASHINGTON — The National Rifle Association came under fire late Thursday from members of a gun-control advocacy group in Newtown, Conn., after reports surfaced of Newtown residents receiving robocalls and pro-gun postcards from the NRA.

    The advocacy group, the Newtown Action Alliance, posted a Facebook message Thursday about the calls, prompting responses from people who said they’d received communications from the NRA and were upset by them.

    “I received one of these,” Newtown resident Christopher Wenis wrote on Facebook Thursday afternoon. “I was insulted and offended.” Wenis told The Huffington Post in an interview Friday night that in the 36 hours since he first posted his response, he received two more robocalls from the NRA, one later on Thursday night and one Friday evening.

    “I’ve got a 5-year-old son who went to preschool on the Sandy Hook Elementary School campus,” Wenis explained. “And this was a really hard week for me on a lot of levels. These calls were the very last thing I needed.”

    Wenis said that he called the NRA twice to request that his name be placed on a “Do Not Call List” — first on Tuesday and again Thursday. He said an NRA phone operator assured him he would be removed from NRA call lists. But the calls kept coming. By Friday night, Wenis said, he was desperate to be left in peace.

    Another woman, Lisa Abrams, wrote on Facebook that she had “received a call and a postcard asking me to call my congressmen and tell them ‘NO ASSUALT WEAPONS BAN’ [sic] … I was not happy and needless to say did just the opposite!”

  137. Was the biggest problem here that the police didn’t obtain a judicial warrant first? To the best of my knowledge New Jersey has a ban on assault rifles so the photo appeared to be a child holding an illegal weapon (which would be a crime in New Jersey). If the police had presented the FB photo to a magistrate it would likely have been sufficient to obtain a judicial warrant. If the child had been holding a “unaltered” hunting rifle would the response have been the same?

  138. To Tony C.
    Just for accuracy’s sake, the list of assault rifles chambered in 22 caliber is extensive. You stand corrected.

  139. milord: Just for accuracy’s sake, I said “A 22 rifle is NOT an assault weapon.”

    If you had read my post in context you would see I was responding to Vendetta, who unconditionally called the rifle an “assault weapon,” when it was described in the article as a “22 rifle.” My post was to say the two things are not SYNONYMOUS, and looks alone do not make an assault weapon, so Vendetta’s comment was an unfair escalation of the issue, there is no way to tell if the child is holding an assault weapon.

    I never said there are no 22 caliber assault weapons, in the context of my post I was saying that just looking like an assault weapon does not make it one. Since I am right, I stand by my original post.

  140. The same thing happend to me this morning at 3:00 am in bakersfield CA. I HAD A PIC OF MY CHILD HOLDING MY AK 47 FROM 3 YEARS AGO. THEY SAID tHEY HAFT TO investigate the report they came in my house and shined there flashlights on my kids then left im very upset about this and fill my civil rights were violated

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